Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I should like to table copies of the protocol of deposit of ratifications of the charter of the united nations which was signed by the Secretary of State of the United States of America on October 24, 1945. Hon. members might like to have the following information in regard to this protocol:
Paragraph 3 of article 110 of the charter provides that the charter shall come into force upon the deposit of ratifications by the Republic of China, France, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America, and by a majority of the other signatory states. Paragraph 3 further provides that a protocol of the ratifications deposited shall thereupon be drawn up by the government of the United States of America and communicated to the signatory states. The necessary ratifications having been deposited in Washington by October 24, 1945, the charter came into force and the present protocol was drawn up on that date.
Canada's instrument of ratification, following approval by parliament, was signed by His Majesty in London on November 1, 1945, and was deposited with, the government of the United States of America by the Canadian Ambassador in Washington on November 9, 1945.
Paragraph 4 of article 110 of the charter provides that:	.
The states signatory to the present charter which ratify it after it has come into force will become original members of the united nations on the date of the deposit of their respective ratifications.
Canada thus became an original member of the united nations on November 9, 1945.


Mr. BRACKEN:: May I ask the Prime Minister whether copies of this document are available?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have tabled the protocol. It might be understood1 that it will be printed in to-day's Votes and Proceedings.


John Bracken: If it is not too long.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, it is not long.

Questions


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Veterans Affairs) moved:
That the name of Mr. Marier be substituted for that of Mr. Picard on the committee on external affairs and the name of Mr. Dechehe be substituted for that of Mr. Winkler on the same committee.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. ZAPLITNY:: 1.	How many persons entered Canada as immigrants during the years 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944 and 1945?
2.	Were permits issued by the Canadian government during the above years allowing immigrants to enter Canada? If so, how many permits were issued?
3.	Under	what	legislation,	and by	what
department were these permits issued?
4.	How7 many of the immigrants referred to in question one were1 classified as refugees?


Mr. GLEN:: 1.	Year
1940		 11,324
1941		 9,329
1942		 7,576
1943		 8,504
1944		 12,801
Nine months	ended	September 30,	1945,
18,299.
2.	Yes.
Year 1940 		No. of Permits 	 347
1941 			 129
1942 			 51
1943 			 . 58
1944 			 74
1945 to October 31 ....	.... 36
3.	The Immigration Act. The immigration branch, Department of Mines and Resources.
4.	Information not available as refugees are not recorded as such in immigration statistics.


PURCHASE OF STRIP MILL AT NEW TORONTO BY ANACONDA AMERICAN BRASS
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	Has the strip mill including buildings, plant, and equipment, or any part of it, at New Toronto, been purchased by the Anaconda American Brass Company, Limited?
2.	If so, what was bought?
3.	Have any other government properties been sold to this company?
4.	If so, what are they?
5.	What was the price paid for the strip mill by the Anaconda American Brass Company, and what was the price paid for the other pi operties ?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Land, buildings and certain equipment known as project No. 11, Department of Munitions and Supply at Canada Strip Mills, New Toronto, Ont. Equipment includes cranes, fuel tank and piping, power wiring, air compressor, power substation and boilers.
3.	Equipment only.
4.	Thirty steel shipping containers, one complete rolling mill.
5.	Price for strip mill, $455,000; price for shipping containers, $600; price for rolling mill, $15,0Q0.


FLOOR PRICES ON FARM PRODUCTS
Mr. WHITE (Middlesex East):: 1.	Have floor prices been established on farm products for 1946?
2.	If so, on what products, and at what levels?
3.	What are floor prices, if any, on the following products: hogs, cattle, cheese, butter and wheat ?


Mr. GARDINER:: The operative section of the Agricultural Prices Support Act has not been proclaimed. Consequently, no floor prices have been established under that act. However, floor prices for several farm products have been established through the operation of export contracts, and the payment of subsidies, under the authority of the War Measures Act.
1.	Contracts for beef, bacon, lamb and mutton extend through 1946. Consequently, floor prices for those products for 1946 will be at least equal to those which have been maintained in 1945. Contracts for other products have not been completed for 1946. Therefore, no definite statement concerning them can be given at the present time.
2.	See answer to No. 1.
3.	Floor prices (the equivalent of British contract prices) are maintained directly for beef and bacon, and thereby indirectly for cattle and hogs. Floor prices for beef are as indicated below:
$ Per Hundred
Under
Quality of Beef	Zone Ceiling
Special and Blue	25
Commercial	 1.25
Good cow	75
Common cow	 2.00
Plain (steer and heifer)	 2.10
Manufacturing beef (canner and cutter)	  90
The bacon floor price is $22.50 per 100 pounds grade A Wiltshire f.o.b. ship Canadian seaboard'.
Cheese-Basis 20 cents per lb. First grade f.o.b. factory shipping point.
Questions

Butter-Minimum prices for first grade
creamery butter	delivered	to the	purchaserMay 1945-April	1946. Alta.,	B.C.,	P.E.I.,Sask.,	Out.,	N.B.,Man.	Que.	N.S.Cents	Cents	CentsMay, 1945 	30	32	33June, 1945 	30|	32}	33|July, 1945 	30}	32}	33}August, 1945 ....	31}	33}	34!September, 1945 .	31}	33|	34!October, 1945 ...	311	33}	34}November, 1945..	321	341	35}December, 1945 to April, 1946 ...	32f	34|	35}
Wheat-$1.25 per bushel basis No. 1 Northern, Fort William-Port Arthur and Vancouver.


OFFICERS WITHOUT OVERSEAS SERVICE APPOINTED TO PUBLIC SERVICE SINCE 1939
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	How many naval officers, who have never seen, service on the high seas oc on warships in a danger zone, have been .appointed to positions in the civil service or on government boards since 1939? What are their names and w.hat are their positions and salaries?
2.	How many army officers, who have not seen active service in .any theatre of war, have been appointed to positions in the civil service or on government hoards since 1939? What are thedr names and what are their positions and salaries?
3.	How many air force officers, who have not seen active service in any theatre of war, have been appointed! to positions in the civil service or on government boards since 1939? What are their names and what are their positions and salaries?


Mr. MARTIN:: The information which my hon. friend asks for in this question is not on file in the various departments of the government. To answer the question, every former officer appointed to the civil sendee since 1939 would have to be interviewed to learn the full extent of his military service. Civil service preference in appointments is given former members of the armed forces for overseas service. No account is taken of overseas zones where a man was posted during military service. Former service men with military service in Canada only, except in the case of a pensioner, are given no preferences over the civilian without military service. Accordingly I suggest that the question be dropped.
Question dropped.


ARMY BUILDING, CARTIER SQUARE, OTTAWA
Mr. HOMUTH:: 1.	What expenditures, if any, have been, made changing and remodelling the new army building on Cartier square since September 1, 1945?
2.	What further expenditure, if any, is contemplated ?


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: 1.	$5,212.
2.	Further alterations requested by the Department of National Defence estimated to cost $357.


WAR EXCHANGE TAX-DRAWBACK ON MACHINERY
Mr. FRASER:: 1.	What was the total amount of drawback of war exchange tax respecting articles and materials for machinery and apparatus used in the manufacture, or production, of goods in Canada from the date this drawback came into effect on May 14, 1945, to October 31, 1945?
2.	Is this order respecting this tax still in force?


Mr. McCANN:: 1.	No drawback has been paid to date. It is possible that inquiry has reference to exemption from war exchange .tax provided by order in council No. 3408, dated May 10, 1945, and, if so, no record was maintained of value of items -permitted entry free from this tax, so amount of exemption is not available.
2.	The budget resolutions propose to rescind the war exchange tax on all goods effective October 13, 1945.


C.P.R. EMPLOYEES-WINNIPEG STRIKE OF 1919- PENSION RIGHTS
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	With reference to the statement of the Prime- Minister as recorded in Hansard of April 12, 1945, page 817, has consideration been given to the appointment of a royal commission to investigate the matter of the pension rights of Canadian Pacific employees who were involved in the general strike at Winnipeg in 1919?
2.	If so, what steps have been taken to establish this commission?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	See answer to question No. 2.
2.	An officer of the Department of Labour was instructed to make a thorough investigation into this matter and to obtain written statements from all parties involved, including -the company. His report is expected very shortly. When said report has been received consideration will be given to a decision as to the next appropriate step which can usefully be taken.


SURPLUS WAR ASSETS-OTTAWA TEMPORARY BUILDINGS
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: T. Have the government .temporary buildings on Wellington, street, Ottawa, been declared surplus?
2.	Has (Surplus W-ar Assets Corporation or the War Allocation Committee disposed of these?
3.	If so, to whom were they sold and at what
price ?
4.	What was the original cost of these buildings?

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: 1.	No.
2.	No.
3.	Answered by No. 2.
4.	Temporary building No. 1
and additions	3346,942 59
Temporary building No. 2... 390,749 79 Temporary building No. 3... 422,272 51 Temporary building No. 4. .. 309,824 17



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS

[Stage Direction]
IMMIGRATION	.

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	How many small trucks and jeeps have been disposed of by War Assets Corporation in military district No. 2, and to whom?
2.	Are ex-service men allowed to purchase these direct from the War Assets Corporation?
[DOT]	3. Who are the members of War Assets
Corporation and the chief officials who receive more than $4,000 per year?
4.	Are any of them veterans of this war?


Mr. McILRAITH:: Return tabled.


MOTION FOR PAPERS
Mr. KNOWLES:: For a copy of Unemployment Insurance Commission circular No. 34, dated September 10, 1945, dealing with the subject of suitable employment.


Mr. MITCHELL:: Return tabled!.


WAR AND DEMOBILIZATION PROVISION FOR APPROPRIATION OF 81,365,000,000 FOR WAR PURPOSES, DEMOBILIZATION, PROMOTION OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY, ETC.
[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, November 20, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to His Majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures deemed necessary or advisable in consequence of the war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.

['A quicker way.']
The CHAIRMAN:: When the committee rose last night it was considering the estimates of the Department of Munitions and Supply.
We were on the item, "Production subsidies and other miscellaneous war expenses." Shall the item carry?


Mr. FRASER:: Last night the minister said that he would table copies of the advertisement with regard to Fairmiles and would give us an inventory of what was.on the Fairmiles when they were handed over at Sorel.


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: I have not copies of the advertisement. They are in Montreal. However, I have a list of publications in which the advertisement appeared.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Will the minister table that now?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will table it now, with the consent of the committee. Advertisements were inserted in the following papers and publications on the following dates:
Publication .and City Schedule date for Ad. Shipping Register & Shipbuilding, Montreal- 15th .September, 1945.
Canadian Shipping & Marine Engineering News, Toronto-6th September, 1945.
Canadian Transportation, Toronto-1st September, 1945.
Financial Times, Montreal-31st August, 1945. Financial Post, Toronto-24th August, 1945. Herald and Mail, Halifax-21st August, 1945. Chronicle Star, Halifax-29th August, 1945. Telegraph-Journal, Saint John-21st August, 1945.
Times-Globe, Saint John-21st August, 1945. Chronicle-Telegraph, Quebec-21st August, 1945. Le Soleil, Quebec-21st August, 1945.
L'Evenement-Journal,	Quebec-21st	August,
1945.
The Gazette, Montreal-29th August, 1945. Montreal Star, Montreal-20th August, 1945. Le Canada, Montreal-20th August, 1945.
La Presse, Montreal-29th August, 1945.
Globe and Mail, Toronto-21st August, 1945. News Herald, Vancouver-30th August, 1945. The Sun, Vancouver-27th August, 1945.
The Province, Vancouver-21st August, 1945. The Colonist, Victoria-21st August, 1945.
The Times, Victoria-"-29th August, 1945.
Fairmiles were loaned to the following for educational purposes:
One to Boy Scouts, Montreal.
One to Sea Cadets, Montreal.
Three to Department of Provincial Secretary, Quebec, for Eeole d'Arts et Metiers at Rimouski.
These five boats are still the property of the government, on indefinite loan.


Mr. MACDONNELL:: In connection with the Park Steamship company and the matter we discussed yesterday, I understood that the minister was going to look further into certain features of it. I suggest that it would be helpful to all concerned if he would put on Hansard the correspondence in connection with commission. We should have the correspondence with the agent, indeed all relevant correspondence in the transaction, so that we
2342	COMMONS
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
can understand what took place. The matter was not very clear yesterday, as members of the committee will recall. If the minister would table the correspondence we would all feel that we knew the situation better.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Any correspondence that
there was took place between Park Steamship company and the War Assets Corporation and the agent. That correspondence is all in Montreal. I tried to get hold of the manager of Park Steamship company this morning but was unable to do so. I shall be glad to table the information when I get it. I am no wiser about that situation than I was before, but it could be referred to the committee on war expenditures where those who handled the transaction could appear and any questions that might be asked could be answered. The whole matter could then be explored by those who are really familiar with transactions of the kind referred to.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That may be a fair suggestion; nevertheless I would like to see it on Hansard, because the members who listened to the discussion yesterday might be interested in having the information for themselves. After that, the course of procedure which the minister suggests might be reasonable.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will try to obtain the correspondence. I have not been able to do so yet. I would like to see it myself.


Mr. ADAMSON:: I should like the minister to give us some information about the documents in connection with the strip mill at Anaconda.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That has just been tabled.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I would ask a question on that, but unfortunately I have not the answer. While I am on this matter I should like to say something about the Anaconda American Brass company. I believe their finished production compares favourably with that of any brass company in the entire world. I understand they have operated a government subsidiary, a crown company, and have established a production cost lower than that of any other company manufacturing, brass and similar articles. But this is not their only attainment. What I shall say further is said because two other hon. members have made similar references. At the time of the ninth victory loan this company invested more per man than any other Canadian company, their contributions reacnmg the astonishing figure of only $7 less than $500 per employee. The total subscription by the company amounted to more than $3,800,000. May I take this opportunity to congratulate the company upon its

creditable showing in this respect. I am sure the committee will pardon me for having taken time to point out this most remarkable performance.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Apropos of the hon. member's remarks, may I place before the committee an example of the government in business, as applied to the manufacture of brass. Capital expenditures for Canada Strip Mills amounted to $3,192,300.15. Brass was sold at current world prices. I might point out in, passing that it is a world commodity, and sells at a world price. Profits of the operation were $16,289,181.20. After writing off capital there was an excess of profits over capital expenditures of $13,096,881.05. In addition to that we had another operation in Montreal East, where there was a capital expenditure of $6,515,429.40. Profits of that operation were $15,597,586.66, with an excess of profits over capital expenditures of $9,082,160.26.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Termination of contracts, $175,000,000.
["Apropos of the hon. member's remarks, may I place before the committee an example of the government in business, as applied to the manufacture of brass. Capital expenditures for Canada Strip Mills amounted to $3,192,300.15. Brass was sold at current world prices. I might point out in, passing that it is a world commodity, and sells at a world price. Profits of the operation were $16,289,181.20. After writing off capital there was an excess of profits over capital expenditures of $13,096,881.05. In addition to that we had another operation in Montreal East, where there was a capital expenditure of $6,515,429.40. Profits of that operation were $15,597,586.66, with an excess of profits over capital expenditures of $9,082,160.26."]
Clarence Decatur Howe: At the last sitting I undertook to make a statement respecting _the termination of contracts, to substantiate the item of $175,000,000. The termination provisions in the majority of outstanding contracts are substantially as follows:
35. Termination
(a)	Notwithstanding anything in the contract contained, the minister may at any time, by giving notice to the contractor, terminate the contract (save and except the provisions of this clause and of clause 28 of these general conditions) as regards all or any part or parts of the work not theretofore completed. Upon such notice being given, the Contractor shall cease work (including the manufacturing and/or procuring of materials for the fulfilment of this contract) in accordance with and to the extent specified in such notice. The minister may, at any time or from time to time give one or more additional notices with respect to any or all parts of the work which remain to be completed after the giving of any previous notice or notices;
(b)	In the event of any notice being given under the provisions of this clause-
(i)	.all work completed by the contractor hereunder before the giving of such notice, and all work completed thereafter pursuant to such notice, shall be paid for (subject to acceptance by His Majesty in accordance with the provisions of the contract) on the basis provided in the agreement;
(ii)	in respect of work not completed hereunder before the giving of such notice, and not completed thereafter pursuant to such notice, the contractor shall be entitled to be reimbursed the actual cost to the contractor of such uncompleted work and to receive in addition an amount representing a fair and reasonable profit in respect of the work done thereon. For the purposes of this subdivision (ii)

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply'_
"cost" shall include direct labour costs, indirect labour and/or overhead charges, depreciation of plant and equipment (at rates not in excess of those allowable by the Income Tax division of the Department of National Revenue in respect of the fiscal period or periods in which the work is performed) and the cost of materials and parts, incurred or procured by the contractor (including materials and parts contracted for and for which the contractor is obligated to make payment) in respect of and properly appor-tionable to the performance of the contract and not included in the price paid or payable to the contractor in respect of work completed by the contractor before or after the giving of any notice hereunder;
(iii)	if the contract shall have specifically authorized or if the minister shall have specifically approved the making of capital expenditures by the contractor to enable it to carry out the contract, the contractor shall be entitled to be reimbursed the amount of such capital expenditures so authorized or approved (and actually made or incurred) to the extent that the same (less any depreciation in respect thereof already taken into account in determining cost in accordance with the foregoing provisions) were reasonably and properly incurred by the contractor in respect of and are properly apportion-able to the performance of the contract and have not been included in the amounts paid or payable to the contractor in respect of work completed by the contractor before or after the giving of any notice hereunder;
(c)	No reimbursement shall be made for materials, whether raw or in the course of manufacture or manufactured, which have been or may be rejected - after inspection as not complying with the terms and conditions of the contract and the specifications; and no reimbursement shall be made of expenditures incurred by the contractor in respect of deliveries of which the contractor may be in arrears at the time the said notice is given unless the contractor is so in arrears due to a cause which was beyond the control of the contractor.
(d)	In no case shall the contractor be entitled to be reimbursed any amount, which taken together with any amounts paid or due or becoming due to the contractor under the contract, shall exceed the total amount payable for the work to be performed under the contract. In the event that the contractor and the minister are unable to agree upon the amount in respect of which the contractor is entitled to be reimbursed as aforesaid, the matter shall be referred to the exchequer court;
(e)	Whenever practicable the contractor shall procure materials and/or parts required for the performance of the contract on terms that will enable it to terminate any contracts entered into by the contractor upon conditions and terms similar in effect to those herein provided for in respect of the termination of this contract by the minister and the giving of a notice or notices as aforesaid: and generally the contractor shall cooperate with His Majesty and the minister and do everything reasonably within its power at all times to minimize and reduce the amount of His Majesty's obligations under the provisions of this clause;
(f)	Upon reimbursement being made to the contractor as herein provided, title to the materials, parts, plant, equipment and/or work in process in respect of which such reimbursement is made shall pass to and vest in His Majesty unless already so vested under any other provisions hereof (the contractor hereby agreeing to execute and deliver all requisite instruments by way of further assurance) and such materials, parts, plant, equipment and/or work in process shall be delivered to the order of the minister, but the materials thus taken over will in no case be in excess of what would have been required for performing the contract in full if no notice had been given under the provisions hereof;
(g)	If it is established to the satisfaction of the minister by the contractor that by reason of any action taken by the minister under the provisions of this clause exceptional hardship has resulted to the contractor, then the minister may, notwithstanding any other provisions of this clause, in his absolute discretion grant such allowance (not to include in any ease, however, any allowance or compensation for loss of profit) to the contractor as, in the opinion of the minister, is warranted by the circumstances;
(h)	Any action, decision or determination by the minister under the provisions of this clause shall be final and binding upon the contractor;
(i)	The contractor shall have no claim for damages, compensation, loss of profit, allowance or otherwise by reason of or directly or indirectly arising out of any action taken or notice given by the minister under or pursuant to the provisions of this clause except as to the extent in this clause expressly provided.
I have arranged for the distribution of copies of the Manual of Procedure on Termination of Contracts, as revised in April, 1945. The clause referred to will be found at page 10 of this manual. In effect it provides that the minister may at any time terminate the contact, and in such event the contractor will be reimbursed in respect of the costs incurred and commitments made for the contract up to the termination.
The contracts settlement board commenced operations on January 1, 1945, and up to September 30, 1945, had received 1,507 termination notices which have been or will be the subject of termination claims. Of this amount, 500 were received during the month of September. In the above period, 626 claims have been received amounting in all to $23,272,225.31. The board has approved settlement of 369 claims totalling $13,166,380. The value of the uncompleted portion of the contracts settled was $104,185,825.79. The amount of the settlements, therefore, was approximately thirteen per cent of the value of the terminated portion of such contracts.
It is impossible to estimate with any degree of accuracy the amount which will be required to settle all claims arising out of contracts placed by this department which are terminated prior to completion. We have, however, estimated that $175,000,000 will be
2344	COMMONS
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
required for the fiscal year. This estimate is based upon, a preliminary survey made at m3' request by the economics and statistics branch of the department. It provides for an outla3' of approximately $165,000,000 for the last three quarters of the fiscal year. Claims approved during the first three months were approximately $5,000,000, and we consequently feel it wise to set the figure for the full year at $175,000,000.
In preparing this statement, the economics and statistics branch of the department has adopted the method of estimating the value of the material content included in the value of production left in the various munitions programmes at August 15, 1945, and adjusting this figure for the amount which has already been financed through advances, and also for the amount of usable materials, with particular reference to stores such as 4 x 2 vehicles, which are readily convertible to civilian use.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I do not think there is any point in taking up the time of the committee in discussing this matter. The minister has told us, and we understand the reason, that this figure is extremely difficult to arrive at. Really it is a figure one has to jump at rather than to calculate. However, following the same practice as he has followed in respect of the contracts included in this report, would the minister give us some information as to the amount which will still fall to be paid after the current fiscal year? If he cannot give an accurate statement, possibly it would be as good as the $175,000,000 figure which he has set for the present year.
Ma>r I draw the attention of the committee to one point. It would seem that the minister has one great advantage when negotiating the termination of contracts, because one section in the specimen agreement states that any action, decision or determination by the minister under the provisions of the clause in question shall be final and binding upon the contractor.' This puts the minister in a somewhat better position to estimate the future. If the minister would give the committee some figure-and I do not care Jiow approximate it may be-as to the years following this fiscal year, I should think it would be of interest.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As I said yesterday, the figure of $175,000,000 could better be called an intelligent guess than an estimate. Until we can get an inventory from every contractor respecting his stock on hand for war purposes, and all his materials in process, which usually come from a great number of subcontractors, it would be impossible to get a figure which one would care to call an estimate. The 
statistics branch have prepared this figure of $175,000,000. It does not seem reasonable to me that for $175,000,000 we can terminate contracts running at the rate of $150,000,000 per month. Yet our target for complete settlement is the end of the current fiscal year. We may not make it, but we are going to try. I dare say that the figure of $175,000,000 is as good as can be given at this time, although I think probably it will be exceeded.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I shall not press the matter further. Perhaps at some stage of proceedings of the war expenditures committee we might be considered free to go into the matter, if it seems desirable to do so.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I believe it would be satis-, factory to hear from the people who are actually handling contract settlements, and if the committee wishes I shall be glad to see that they appear.	,


Mr. POULIOT:: Mr. Chairman, before the item is carried I should like to give my impression of certain things that have Happened in the Department of Munitions and Supply, and I think it is a most opportune time to do it when we are discussing the termination of contracts. The Progressive Conservative party cannot complain of the set-up of the various branches of the department any more than they can complain of the set-up of the various branches of the Department of National Defence, army, navy and air force.
In the Department of Munitions and Supply there was a man who grew to fame. At first he was general counsel of the department; then he became the controller of controllers. His name is Harry Borden. He was associated with another fellow named McTague, so much so that they left their government jobs together and MoTague went as counsel in Borden's office. I shall be told, as I was told last April, that Borden was a public-spirited citizen, that no one was better. I shall be told that he was a great Canadian, that no one was greater. I shall be told that he was greater than the Prime Minister, the leader of the opposition, the leader of the C.C.F., the leader of the Social Credit party, the leader of the bloc populaire, or all of them put together. That is the story that was told me at the time-that he was public-spirited. He looked after his law office very well. So much so that he took advantage of his position to fatten his law office, just as much, I will say, as the fatted calf, but before the return of the prodigal son to the Tory party. His office was the fatted calf; it grew prosperous. This man had a bird's-eye view of the department, and everyone had to go to his law firm.

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I do not 'know whether I am within my rights in rising on what I believe to be a question of privilege, but the hon. gentleman opposite is referring to a man who happens to be a friend of mine. He has been described as a public servant, and if I am within my rights in urging that the course taken by the hon. gentleman is an entirely improper one to take, I will do so.


Jean-François Pouliot: In the first place I will tell the hon. gentleman that he can rise on a question of privilege only in connection with what concerns himself personally. He can rise on a question of privilege if I use language that is not the king's English or that would not be used in good society. What I have been saying is the truth, and it is of public interest. What I have been saying I will repeat for the information of all hon. members who were not here in April and who do not know how the strings were pulled in, the Department of Munitions and Supply by those who posed as public-spirited citizens and grabbed everything they could for their own office, and-this is even more interesting- also to collect funds for the Tory party. It was a strategic position for Harry Borden to be a toll-gate for the Tory party in the Department of Munitions and Supply.


William Ross Macdonald: The hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario has raised a question of privilege, bu't there is no question of privilege. However, I would remind the hon. member for Temiscouata that we are considering the item having to do with the termination of contracts. It was agreed among the members of the committee that we would stay closely to the item under consideration, and I would ask the hon. member to keep his remarks within the item.


Mr. MacINNIS:: May I say a word on the point of order? It seems to me that there is a pretty serious point raised here, namely, that a government servant in the Department of Munitions and Supply used that department for his own personal business-used it not only for his own personal business but to collect funds for a political party. The implication is that this was associated with the business of the Department of Munitions and Supply. Surely the government is not going to let that sort of thing go by.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will ask my hon. friend to keep quiet. I said the very same thing in April and no one objected. It is on the record.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Mr. Chairman-


Jean-François Pouliot: I will ask the hon. gentleman to sit down; I am speaking to his question of privilege.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: On the point of order, I want to know whether I am entitled to object to almost the last remark that was made by the speaker, as to Mr. Borden having used his position to collect funds for the Tory party. I am in a position to know, and I believe that to be totally untrue.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is untrue.


Jean-François Pouliot: The hon. gentleman may say what he likes, but he was in Toronto and I was in Ottawa. I know more about it than he does, because he was not in town. I asked for particulars of the fees that had been paid by the dominion government to the firm of Borden and Company. I have not had an answer, although that return was voted by the house last spring. I want that information now. As I did not get it, I will put another motion on the order paper to get that information. It was so bad that in Sarnia, for instance, it was impossible for anyone to have anything to do with the department except through the firm of Borden and Company. All legal proceedings came there without any name, and the lawyers of Sarnia who had to do with the Polymer corporation had to find out what law office was responsible for the expropriation proceedings and other matters that were being carried on. They found at last that the name "Borden" was there. I have the greatest respect for the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario; he is a public-spirited citizen, and I understand his feelings, but what he has said shows that he does not know how wires are pulled before an election by those who want to take advantage of their position for party business.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. The hon. member is making an attack on a former employee of the munitions and supply board, and he is casting _ a reflection upon the whole munitions and supply organization based on a request for information which he admits he has not yet received. I think he is entirely out of order. I do think the minister ought to take him to task for saying what he has said and either deny or admit what he has said.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will not say that I do not know what I am talking about, because I do know. However, I do not know the magnitude of the amount that was paid to the Borden firm, and that is what I want to know.


William Ross Macdonald: The gentleman whose name has been mentioned is not, as I understand it, a civil servant at the present time
2346	COMMONS
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
I would remind the hon. member for Temis-couata that the item under consideration is termination of contracts. I think he should relate his remarks to that item.


Jean-François Pouliot: Exactly, and here is the point. Harry Borden was a general counsel of the Department of Munitions and Supply, and as such he-


Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):: Mr. Chairman-


Jean-François Pouliot: I am just speaking-


Mr. ROWE:: Sit down; this is on the point of order.


Jean-François Pouliot: There is already one point of order.


William Earl Rowe: Sit down; you know the rules.


Jean-François Pouliot: No, I will not sit down.
I am speaking to a point of order, and I will not sit down.


William Earl Rowe: You should know the rules better than that.


William Ross Macdonald: Will both hon. gentlemen please sit down? I did not give a ruling on the point of order because I did not think it was necessary. I pointed out to the hon. member that he should confine his remarks to the item under discussion, and I thought that would be sufficient. But if the hon. member for Calgary West desires to speak to the point of order I cannot prevent him.


Jean-François Pouliot: I think the hon. member who has the floor has the right to speak, Mr. , Chairman.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Sit down.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will listen to the Chair, but not to those who shout at me to sit down.


William Ross Macdonald: The hon. member for Calgary West can speak to the point of order.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I merely wish to add, Mr. Chairman, that I think it would be an excellent idea if this house would agree in the presentation of the ig-Nobel prize for slander to the hon. member who has just been interrupted1.


William Ross Macdonald: That has nothing to do with the point of order. As a point of order has been raised, I can find nothing in standing order 41 that gives me the power to prevent any member from speaking about this gentleman who is not a civil servant, and therefore I cannot rule that the hon. member for Temiscouata is out of order. But I would again strongly urge upon him that he stay within the item under discussion, the termination of contracts.
[The Chairman.]


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes, sir. Before continuing my demonstration of the fact that I was perfectly in order, I rise, Mr. Chairman, on a question of privilege. I want the hon. member for Calgary West, if he is a gentleman, to withdraw the words "ignoble slander". That is the first step. Afterwards I will give my demonstration.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I bow to .the chairman and to the hon. gentleman and withdraw the words.


Jean-François Pouliot: That is all right. I give credit to my hon. friend the member for Calgary West for being the brightest legal mind on his side, if not in the whole house, but unfortunately he has defended the worst case to-day.
To continue my demonstration, Mr. Chairman, I may tell you that I was perfectly in order, because if things have been done as they should be done in the Department of Munitions and1 Supply the main duty of the general counsel was to examine contracts, and as we are now considering the termination of contracts we are studying contracts that have been accepted by the department on the advice of the man whom I have mentioned, Harry Borden; therefore if there is a man of whom I have the right to speak on this item it is Harry Borden. It is just because my hon. friends opposite do not stop a minute to make up their minds about him and the matter before the chair that I am interrupted. I know very well that they will listen to me even if my remarks are painful and may hurt those who glory in the past history of the Conservative party.
I do not speak now only as a Liberal. I speak mostly as a Canadian citizen who cannot understand' why in his wisdom the present leader of the opposition has boosted the former minister of national defence, who recommended Borden to his post because they were both on the board of Barclay's bank, an international finance organization, and Borden having the money, and being with McTague, who made a mess of the war labour board, these two together were assigned as advisers to the leader of the opposition. They were appointed as advisers to the present leader of the opposition and they decided the policies of the party, and they told him to boost Ralston during the Grey North by-election. There you have the whole story of the rat who ate the cheese in the Department of Munitions and Supply.


Arthur Leroy Smith: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, are the remarks of the hon. gentleman relevant to the item under discussion?

Demobilization-Munitions and Supply


William Ross Macdonald: The item under discussion is the termination of oontracts. On other items there has been considerable latitude allowed, and on this item also we must allow considerable latitude. But I do feel at times that the hon. member is going beyond the field of latitude that we have previously allowed, and again I would ask him to keep his remarks strictly within the item, the termination of contracts.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will use no metaphorical language belonging to the kingdom of birds or animals. I will leave it at that. I thank the hon. member for Calgary West for giving me a brief breathing spell.
I will conclude in a few short sentences that will convey my impression of the whole show. It is most unusual during the course of a ' political campaign to find the leader of a political party lauding any one of his opponents, especially a Jonah who has been thrown overboard and who has been swallowed by the Tory wrhale. I read the papers during the Grey North by-election campaign and I saw that a person was boosted to the limits by the leader of the Conservative party-the former minister of national defence for the army, who was responsible for the mess in that department during four or five years. But the leader of that political party found him very good, although at the same time he complained of the mess that was 'in that department. How could he boost the one who was responsible for it? That is beyond my understanding. But there was a reason. There was a little Borden and the loudy McTague-I will call him that.
I objected to that then, and I object to it now. Why? Because of the danger in the future. The danger of the future is not inflation. The danger of the future, the menace to this country, is the possible control of our natural resources by a gang of racketeers and filibusters who would make slaves of our fellow-Canadians. That is the danger. Inflation is nothing. Money-what is that? One has it to-day; one loses it; one has more tomorrow or one has less; it is of no importance. But if our national resources are under the control of an international finance gang, our country is finished. That is why I have always denounced those who are responsible for it. I have nothing against any one man in particular; I have nothing against Borden, against Ralston, against McTague, against Angus L. Macdonald, against Charlie Dunning: they are all in the same bag, and they are dangerous fellows, because they are the tools of international finance in this country.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. The hon. member has referred
to the premier of one of the provinces, the Hon. Angus Macdonald. That is unparliamentary.


Jean-François Pouliot: You said, "quack, quack" when he was minister in charge of a department.


William Ross Macdonald: Order. The hon. member for Temiscouata must withdraw the name of the premier of Nova Scotia.


Jean-François Pouliot: In virtue of what authority, sir? The rule applies only to those who are actually members of the house or members of the senate. When they are not members it is a different matter.


William Ross Macdonald: There is a rule, which I cannot at the moment recall, with reference to using offensive words against a man in a high place.


Jean-François Pouliot: Oh, no.


William Ross Macdonald: Offensive words have been used against a person in a high official station. I would ask the hon. member to withdraw his reference in so far as the premier of Nova Scotia is concerned.


Jean-François Pouliot: You want it, sir? It is all right.


William Earl Rowe: Occasionally in this house we are subjected to peculiar and strange spectacles. I have listened with keen interest to what has been said. I am not so much concerned about the demonstration which the hon. member for Temiscouata has put on to-day, because, under ordinary circumstances every circus needs an end man, although it is passing strange that the hon. member has been allowed to get further away from the issue in this debate than anyone else. I am glad that the naming of Angus Macdonald has brought us to a point of reasonable decorum, and I am pleased that the issue was raised by an hon. member on the other side of the house. .
But there is another issue involved here which is much more important than the demonstration we have listened to. This afternoon a charge has been laid against an honourable civil servant engaged in the Department of Munitions and Supply. Before this item passes I want the Minister of Munitions and Supply to rise and tell us how many thousand dollars Henry Borden collected for our party. I have been running a lot of elections in this country-more than the Minister of Munitions and Supply has-and I did not see any of that money. If the hon. member for Temiscouata, despite the fact that he usually contributes more noise than reason to any debate in this chamber, knows what went on in the city of Toronto, and knows
2348	COMMONS
Demobilization-Munitions and Supply
that Henry Borden took the taxpayers' money for the interests of the Progressive Conservative party, then the people of this country should know it, and the man responsible in this connection is the Minister of Munitions and Supply. I should like him to rise now m his place and tell us.
. Mr. HOWE: What am I responsible for?


William Earl Rowe: You are responsible for your department. One/ of your supporters this afternoon says that a member of your department stole money from your department to give to the party represented on this side of the house.


Jean-François Pouliot: I did not say that. I said that he ate the cheese-and a big one.


William Earl Rowe: Many a rat has been choked by such a type of cheese. I think the hour has struck when we should know whether this is just noise or whether there is anything to it. The man responsible is the Minister of Munitions and Supply, and I would like him to tell me now whether Henry Borden, as a civil servant and a close colleague of his-


An hon. MEMBER:: Sit down.


William Earl Rowe: 'I will sit down when I am ready.


Clarence Decatur Howe: You asked a question.


William Ross Macdonald: The hon. member for Dufferin-Simeoe is not through with his question.


William Earl Rowe: Now I will sit down and listen while the Minister of Munitions and Supply tells us whether what the hon. member for Temiseouata has told us is true; and in fairness to a man who is not here to answer for himself I hope we shall get the truth.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The question of Mr. Henry Borden is not, in my opinion, in question in this house. Mr. Henry Borden was one of the first men to come to the aid of the government when war broke out. He served in the Department of Munitions and Supply and its predecessor for some five years. No man worked harder for the cause than Mr. Henry Borden. He did his work without salary. Certain fees inadvertently went to his law firm; he was so meticulous that each year he traced down any fees which arose out of clients of the department or those associated with the department and returned a cheque to the Receiver General of Canada for those fees. Subsequently he left the department. He took part in the political campaign, which certainly w'as as much his right as it was my right or that of anyone else. Of course I know nothing about his operations after he

left the department, but I will say this, that no man ever left the service of Canada with a better record of public service and devotion to duty than Mr. Henry Borden.


William Earl Rowe: Now I think the hon. member for Temiseouata should give us the reasons for the statement he made. He has hoard from the minister.


William Ross Macdonald: I am in the hands of the committee, but I understood the committee directed me to endeavour to have these estimates carried item by item. The item under consideration is termination of contracts. Does the item carry?


John Bracken: Mr. Chairman, before . you leave this item I should like to commend the minister for the very fair statement he has made about one w-ho was a former servant of this government.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
['Mr. Chairman, before . you leave this item I should like to commend the minister for the very fair statement he has made about one w-ho was a former servant of this government.']
Clarence Decatur Howe: There are two other items which do not require a vote, and are simply noted here: they are the expected recoveries, first from loans to commodity companies. As hon. members know, it was necessary from time to time to buy certain materials which could not be obtained within the country, such as wool, rubber and other commodities, also certain rare metals-tin and antimony. We anticipated a recovery on these items this year of $5 million from liquidation of those inventories. Up to August 31 we had recovered $3,538,368,' and during the remainder of the year we expect to recover at least the balance of the $5 million. Then, for revolving funds for working capital, our estimate for recoveries was $150 million. By August 31 we had recovered $125 million odd, and the balance, and probably considerably more, will be recovered in the course of the current year.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I do not wish to take more than a moment on this, but would it be agreeable to have it understood that any further understanding or explanation regarding this last figure may be had in coin-mittee if we so desire?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Mr. MacNICOL:: May I ask the minister a question with reference to a reply he gave me yesterday, if it is in order? I asked something . about Dominion Magnesium Metals, which has a plant at Haley's. The minister stated it had been sold, and I- then asked if Canada received any consideration for the investment made in the plant, which my memory told me was $5 million. I may be wrong in that, but that is my memory. The

Demobilization-Reconstruction
minister said that the country received a down payment. What down payment did the country receive on that plant? The minister also said that we shall continue to receive one or two cents a pound on the magnesium metal made in the plant. Can he tell the committee the number of pounds of magnesium metal which will be made in that plant each year?
I hold in my hand a photostatic copy of an article which appeared in the Financial Post on July 7. This article speaks of the sale of the plant, and informs the public the company has now 400,000 shares and that the price on the market is $8 per share. That would amount to $3,200,000. Further down the article says that the capital will be 500,000 shares. If this is correct, the amount w'ould be $4,000,000. Why should not the country get a portion of that stock or a portion of the value of the stock?	.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Would my hon. friend give me an hour or so to answer that in the course of the debate on reconstruction? I shall have the accurate figures then. I would have to give them from memory now. I shall ask my secretary to get the figures.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That will be quite satisfactory.
nEPARTMENT OP RECONSTUCTION


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall make a statement, if I may. The estimates of the Department of Reconstruction have been submitted to the house under three headings:	(1) departmental
administration; (2) reconstruction projects, and (3) Canadian Arsenals Limited. I should like to point out that there has been a duplication in the first item, in that departmental administration is also in the civil estimates. I mention that so that when we discuss it now it will not be necessary to discuss it again in the civil estimates.	1
It will be noted that the estimate of requirements for departmental administration for the fiscal year was $1,500,000. Of this amount, approximately $299,295 had been spent up to August 31, leaving unexpended for the balance of the fiscal year approximately $1,200,705. This vote is for the usual expenditures incidental to the administration of a government department, salaries, telephone and telegraph charges, printing and stationery costs, etc. I will have a word to say later on the administrative organization of the department as it exists at the present time
For the second item, reconstruction projects, the estimate of requirements for the fiscal
year 1945-46 was $5,000,000. There had been expended of this amount $18,286 as of August 31. However, there are a number of commitments which were made prior to August 31 for which the actual expenditure will fall in the period from September 1 to March 31. The unexpended balance of the five million dollar vote is $4,981,714.' I shall make reference to the reconstruction projects undertaken by the department or in which the department is participating, when I discuss the work of the several administrative divisions of the department.
The third item, Canadian Arsenals Limited, calls for an expenditure in the balance of the fiscal year of $2,386,703. While a final decision with respect to the nature and size of the post-war arsenal establishment has not been made, it was considered advisable at this time to set up an organization to be responsible for the equipping, operation and maintenance of such arsenal establishments as may be established. Canadian Arsenals Limited was established for this purpose under the terms of order in council P.C. 5929, dated September 14, 1945, and will act as an agent of the government. The immediate function of the company will be to take over such part of government-owned plant and equipment as may be required in the arsenal programme. This will have the two-fold effect of expediting the reconversion of manufacturing facilities to be used in the arsenal programme and of assisting in the clearance of government-owned plant and equipment from factory premises which are not included in the arsenals scheme. Colonel M. P. Jolly, who has served as president of the crowni company, Small Arms Limited, has accepted the presidency of Canadian Arsenals Limited and will be assisted by a board of directors consisting of the following:. Mr. J. G. Notman, Brigadier A. P. Theriault, Mr. E. T. Sterne and Mr. R. M. P. Hamilton.
The Department of Reconstruction consists of the following administrative divisions: industrial reconversion branch, research and development branch, public projects branch, economic research branch, resources development branch, air development branch, war surplus branch, crown assets allocation committee, eleven regional councils, office of the labour adviser, and two crown companies, War Assets Corporation and Canadian Arsenals Limited. I shall give the house a brief description of the work of each of these units.
1.	Industrial reconversion branch. I had occasion to point out in my comments on the speech from the throne that the attaining of the objective of a high level of employment and income will depend to a great extent on

Demobilization-Reconstruction
our ability to adapt to peace-time use the industrial capacity created and expanded for war production. Much of the expanded industrial capacity created' during the war years can be readily adapted to peace-time uses. The government investment in plant capacity including tooling costs, is approximately 722 million dollars. In addition, it is estimated that private industry has expended 500 million dollars in plant expansion. Of the government investment in land, plant and tooling, approximately 75 per cent represents investments in plants wholly owned by the crown. It is estimated that at least two-thirds of this capacity can be put to good use in peace time. At the present time, arrangements have been made for the continued operation of plant capacity to the approximate total value of $210,451,000 or approximately 30 per cent of the - total government investment in land, plant and tooling. This figure represents the value of land, plant and machine tools retained by the government for operation by crown companies and the value of land, plant and machine tools sold to industry for private operation. Negotiations are under way for the disposition of a large part of the remaining manufacturing capacity created by the government. In addition to land and buildings, arrangements have also been made for the disposal of many thousands of general purpose machine tools. It is expected that within the next six-month period, all government-owned machine tools, with the exception of single purpose equipment which cannot be converted to peace-time uses, will have been disposed of to private industry. I think it can be said that the department is making satisfactory progress in converting to peace-time uses all the industrial assets created by the government investment during the war period.
Certain crown-owned plants have been set aside as multiple tenancy projects. These projects were undertaken with the objective of assisting small businesses. Space is leased at commercial rates to companies which wish to expand their operations. The tenants of the multiple tenancy projects are provided with regular services such as heat, power, freight handling facilities, etc. Each project is managed by an agent selected by War Assets Corporation. At the present time, we have two multiple tenancy projects in operation-the John Inglis ordnance plant, now known as the Liberty building comprising 300,000 square feet, and a building at Verdun, formerly operated by Defence Industries Limited. The Liberty building has 12 tenants who will have an approximate employment roll of 1,680, and the Verdun building comprising 325,000 square feet, has 28 tenants who will provide employment for 2,410 persons.
The committee will appreciate the difficulty of giving an accurate estimate of the extent to which private industry has proceeded' with conversion plane. Statistics are readily available regarding the disposal of government-owned plant and equipment but complete and accurate data with respect to the conversion of privately-owned manufacturing capacity is not yet available. However, we are able to obtain some evidence of the extent ito which private industry has undertaken its reconversion programme from the applications which have been received by the depreciation committee of the department under the terms of order in council P.C. 8640. Over one thousand applications have been approved involving new capital expenditure of approximately 200 million dollars for buildings and plant equipment. I have had prepared a statistical study of the information disclosed by 1,233 of the approved applications for special depreciation as at November 1. I would ask that this be printed in Hansard for the information of the committee.



[Stage Direction]
By provinces	Existing buildings purchased	Additions to existing buildings and new plants	New machinery and equipment installed	Used equipment and machinery installed	TotalNova Scotia	$000	$000 90 393 19,582 34,857 932 12 543 5,792	$000 340 2,278 40,457 65,036 1,256 358 732 13,926	$000 8 28 3,277 4,833 27 96 59 358	$000 438 2,699 64,830 108,687 2,278 489 1,346 20,206New Brunswick	Quebec	
Ontario	
Manitoba	
Saskatchewan	
Alberta	
British Columbia	
Total	1,514 3,901 63 23 12 130	5,703	62,201	124,383	8,686	200,973
[Stage Direction]
Demobilization-Reconstruction

[Stage Direction]
Production	Exports
	$000 946,148 2,482,033 2,691,655	$000 235,337 285,631 408,393

[Stage Direction]
Employment
Number employed, 1939	
Number employed, 1944	
Increase one year after completion of projects
178,503 345,136 22,119
INFORMATION ON 1,233 APPROVED APPLICATIONS FOR DEPRECIATION UNDER P.C. 8640 '	AT NOVEMBER 1, 1943
By provinces	Existing buildings purchased	Additions to existing buildings and new plants	New machinery and equipment installed	Used equipment and machinery installed	Total$000	$000	$000	$000	$000Ghoup I-(a) Pig Iron Production; (b) Structural Iron and Steel; (c) Foundries and Machine Shops; (d) Machinery and Machine Tools; (e) Agricultural Implements and Machinery; (f) Tools (hand); (g) Sheet Metal Products; (h) Boilers, Engines, etc.; (i) Heating Appliances, etc...	415	6,464	10,461	2,675	20,015Group II-(a) Railway Rolling Stock, Repair Shops; (b) Automobiles, Trucks,	2,427	1,902	1,069	5,398Group III-(a) Chemical Products (misc.); _ (b) Electrical Apparatus; (c) Non-ferrous Metals Manufactures (misc.)	2,864	12,331	20,172	1,022	36,389Group IV-(a) Petroleum Products; (b) Coal, Coke and Gas Products; (c) Electric Power	2	1,272	436	30	1,740Group V-(a) Vegetable Food Products (b) Animal Food Products; (c) Beverages;	631	8,374	11,427	109	20,602- -Group VI-(a) Cotton Goods; (b) Woollen Goods; (c) Silk and Artificial Silk Goods (d) Hosiery and Knit Goods; (e) Miscellaneous Textiles Products; (f) Garments anc Personal Furnishings (including headwear furs, shoes and leather clothing); (g) Furniture	178	2,801	15,906	951	19,836Group VII-(a) Printing and Publishing (b) Manufactured Paper Products	382	1,379	1,933	133	! 3,827
Demobilization-Reconstruction
INFORMATION ON 1,233 APPROVED APPLICATIONS FOR DEPRECIATION UNDER P.C. 8640 AT November 1, 1945-Continued
Additions	New	Used	By provinces	Existing buildings	to existing buildings	machinery and	equipment and	Totalpurchased	and new	equipment	machinery	plants	installed	installed	Group VIII-(a) Pulp and Paper; (b) Lum-	$000	$000	$000	$000	$000ber (rough and dressed); (c) Intermediate Lumber Products; (d) Rubber Products; (e)	Leather Products (excluding shoes); (f)	Clay, Glass and Stone Products; (g)	Mineral Products. non-Metallic	1,132	23,383	37,703	1,907	64,125
Group IX-(a) Logging; (b) Coal Mining;					
(q) Metal Mining; (d) Mining of NonMetallic Minerals (excluding coal)			400	1,260	8	1,668
					
Group X-Construction			121	55	364	540
					
Group XI-(a) Railway Operations; (b)					
Shipping and Water Transport; (c) Air Transports; (d) Street Cars, Cartage and					
		1,739	22,011	12	23,852
					
	84	211	227	259	781
					
Group XIII-Other Miscellaneous	15	1,299	799	87	2,2005,703	62,201	124,383	8,686	200,973
The distribution by provinces of these applications is as follows:
Nova Scotia	$	400,000
New Brunswick	 2,700,000
' Quebec	 65,000,000
Ontario	,	 109,000,000
Manitoba	 2,300^000
Saskatchewan	 500,000
Alberta	 1,300,000
British Columbia	 20,000,000
Information on total production taken from 960 applications involving 791 plants shows
that the companies concerned anticipate a level of production in excess of their pre-war figure, and in some cases, higher than the production level of 1944 which was the peak year of war production. I will give the house ' a small table showing the gross selling value in these plants in 1939 and 1944 and the anticipated gross selling value after the completion of new expenditures with a break-down of the total value of production and that part of production destined for export.
Gross selling value, 1939	
Gross selling value, 1944	
Gross selling value after completion of expenditures
Production $ 946.000.000
2.482.000.	000
2.692.000.	000
Exports
Mr. BLACKMORE:: I was not sure what the "gross" referred to in the last figures the minister read.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is the gross value after completion of expansion.


John Horne Blackmore: I did not get those words.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That means reconversion expansion.


Mr. JACKMAN:: Is that governmentowned plants?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. This is private industry.
Employment in these 791 plants amounted to 179,000 in 1939 and rose to 345,000 in 1944. These companies expect that as a result of their reconversion plans, they will provide additional employment for some 22,000 persons within one year after the new capital expenditures have been made. In addition to employment in the plants themselves, these

Demobilization-Reconstruction
reconversion plans will provide employment for many thousands in the construction and supply industries. A considerable part of the expenditure will be made in areas where the employment problem has been aggravated by large lay-offs of war workers and the need for absorbing returning service men. For example, in the Montreal area, S22,000,000 will be spent; in Toronto, $21,500,000; in Hamilton, $9,500,000; in Kitchener and Waterloo, $5,100,000; in Kingston, $4,500,000; in Vancouver, $4,100,000; in Peterborough, $2,800,000; in Brantford, $2,600,000; in Winnipeg, $904,000; in Halifax, $226,000; and in Quebec, $341,000.
An interesting feature of these applications is the number of new lines of manufacturing which will be undertaken. From the applications now approved, it would appear that at least 100 major products never before manufactured in Canada, will be manufactured in the post-war years. These include inter-city buses, prefabricated houses, glass fabrics and plastic products, a large number of household articles, ball and roller type bearings, special type yarns, synthetic resins and medicines and chemicals. It is also significant that a number of these expenditures will be made in the smaller communities.
2.	Research and development branch. The research and development branch has been set up to provide scientific and technical assistance to industry during the period of reconversion. The branch is now operating in several fields.
First, and of most immediate importance, a technical and scientific information service has been established to serve industry and especially small industry. In each province, there have been or are about to be appointed field representatives whose duty will be to keep in touch with the industries in the province, to discuss the needs of industry and to make . available the type of technical and scientific information that small industry is unable to provide for. itself. These field representatives will make use of any local research facilities that may be available and will be assisted by a central team of six experts in the library " of the national research council. While the central service has only been operating for a few months, to date over 125 reports have been forwarded to individual companies in reply to requests for information. I cannot stress too much the importance of this service to small industry, which is seeking to improve its manufacturing techniques.
A second function of the branch will be to sponsor research in important industrial fields as a means of developing new industries in Canada.
The branch has a small headquarters staff of experts who will act as coordinators of research in broad fields. For example, the coordinator of housing research has made a most thorough and comprehensive survey of the status of housing research in Canada, the United States and the United Kingdom. Similar work is being undertaken in the communication field and a programme of cooperative research in radio link communications has been arranged as between the department, the national research council and the two railway companies. This policy of coordination will be extended to other fields as the occasion arises.
Our research and development branch has also been made responsible for the selection and dispatch of scientific -and technical specialists to Germany for the purpose of studying special targets of military and industrial interest. To date, over forty investigators have been sent to Germany. These investigators were selected on the basis of their expert and specialized experiences in the field to be covered. They have joined allied teams on arrival in the United Kingdom and are now investigating special .targets in nearly every field of scientific and industrial technology. The reports prepared by these allied teams will be made available to Canadian industry. In addition to reports on specific subjects, much information of a general nature on industrial processes and techniques is also being obtained. This information will be of inestimable value to Canadian industry at this time, when old industries are being revitalized and new industries created.
3.	Economic research branch. It will be evident from a reading of the government White paper, "Employment and Income", that a successful carrying out of reconstruction policies will depend on our ability to forecast economic trends in the various parts of the country. Such forecasts can only be made if we have reliable statistics and economic data. It is the function of the economic research branch to collect these statistics and to interpret them in terms of employment and income levels. While the branch has a statistical unit of its own, full- use is being made of all research facilities now available in other government departments.
4.	Public projects branch. It is the responsibility of the public projects branch to obtain complete information upon all public projects whether they be initiated by the dominion government, the provincial governments or the municipalities, or jointly. When such information has been obtained, it will be the responsibility of the coordinator of public projects to coordinate these various projects

Demobilization-Reconstruction
with respect to timing. The policy of the dominion government ycith regard to public projects was set out in general terms in the white paper, "Employment and Income" which was tabled in the house on April 12, 1945, and more specifically in the proposals submitted by the dominion government at the dominion-provincial conference on reconstruction which was 'held in August last. A final definition of the policy of the dominion government in this regard must await the outcome of the second session of the dominion-provincial conference which is to be held next month. In the meantime, the public projects branch is endeavouring to complete lists of all public projects which have been planned and is encouraging the respective authorities responsible for these projects to advance the projects to the point where they can be undertaken with a minimum of delay. In this way, a shelf of public projects will be in readiness for execution at such time as the level of employment may require.
This is a lengthy statement. There is a great deal of information in it, and if it would suit the committee that I desist from reading it now, I could place it on Hansard. It is not contentious.


William Ross Macdonald: With the unanimous consent of the committee the statement may be placed on Hansard.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would it be reasonable to suggest that if there is anything which after reading this material we wish to discuss later, we shall be able to do so?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Surely. .


James MacKerras Macdonnell: If we allow it to be placed on Hansard to-day, we might wish to discuss it later.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; I shall have civil estimates. If, after the Minister of Labour finishes, the committee wishes to discuss anything contained in this statement, it will be quite in order.


Mr. GREEN:: Is this material in the form of a table, or of a general statement? It would be helpful if we had the general statement, but we would not need to have a reading of the tables.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is just a general statement.


William Ross Macdonald: Has the minister the unanimous consent of the house to place the statement on Hansard?


John Bracken: We wish to help facilitate the w'ork of the session, but if we do not have this material we are not iD a position to discuss it. \


Clarence Decatur Howe: I find there are only ten more pages, so I shall read it.


John Bracken: Perhaps it would be
better.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I continue:
5.	Resources development branch. The resources development branch is responsible for initiating and' coordinating development programmes in the territories under the control of the dominion government, namely, the Yukon and the Northwest Territories, and will cooperate with the provinces in the development and conservation of natural resources under provincial jurisdiction, As an example of the latter responsibility, I would refer to the establishment of the forest insect control board as authorized under order in council P.C. 601S. The federal government and several of the provincial governments have been cooperating for some months past in measures to control forest insects, and especially the spruce bud worm which has become a major peril to our spruce forests. Preliminary work done in this connection indicated the need for a single agency which would have responsibility for assembling all necessaiy data and for recommending specific corrective measures. It was decided to establish a forest insect control board, the chairman to be appointed by the resources development branch and the members to consist of one nominee from each of the following provinces: British Columbia, Ontario, Quebec and the maritimes, and a representative of the pulp and paper industry.
The board has authority to employ whatever . technical staff may be required.
As a further example of the work of the branch, I might refer to plans which are now under way for the development of landing strips at Chibougamau in the province of Quebec and at Red Lake, Ontario. These strips will provide first class landing facilities in these important mining areas where transportation by air has played and will play such a vital part in the development of mineral resources.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister mentioned the northwest territories. He did not refer to any plans for that area.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; perhaps we can discuss that after I have finished my statement.
What has been said of the future work of the public projects branch applies to some extent in the case of the resources development branch-the outcome of the dominion-provincial conference in November will have a definite bearing on the future policy of the

Demobilization-Reconstruction
branch with respect to participation in the development of resources under provincial jurisdiction.
6.	Air development branch. The air development branch was organized to undertake special services pertaining to the development of air facilities and services in Canada, and to promote, in cooperation with the air transport board, the establishment and expansion of scheduled and charter air transportation. It is also one of its functions to study and report on the problem of financial assistance to air carriers, the method which should be adopted and the type of assistance which may be needed to foster air development.
The branch has recently completed a major survey to determine the travel pattern and inter-community relationship in Canada.
7.	War surplus branch, War Assets Corporation, and crown assets allocation committee. The functions and responsibilities of the crown assets allocation committee and War Assets Corporation are set out in the Surplus Crown Assets Act. As the terms of reference of the war expenditures committee include an inquiry into the operations of the crown assets allocation committee and War Assets Corporation, I shall not discuss in any detail at this time the activities of these two agencies. The Surplus Crown Assets Act requires that War Assets Corporation shall submit a report to parliament. This report has recently been tabled. I think it will be of interest, however, if I place on Hansard a statement showing the gross dollar value of surplus assets- sold for the period from the inception of War Assets Corporation, July 12, 1944 to September 30, 1945. The statement will show the number of sales under general commodity headings:


WAR ASSETS CORPORATION
[Stage Direction]
Statement of sales from 12th July, 1944, to 30th September, 1945
Number of			
Category	'Sales	Amount	Real estate 	. 19	$3,850,502	50Buildings with land	. 430	4,013,233	37Complete industrial estab	-	lishments	. 8	4,890,867	35Clothing 	. 815	1,711,163	90Footwear 	. 329	706,436	14Foodstuffs	. 122	181,239	71Office furniture 	. 456	121,778	69Cafeteria equipment ....	. 160	48,138	25Kitchenware 	. 179	58,574	04Paints and oils 	. 401	130,272	98Textiles	. 367	153,399	61Scientific equipment ....	. 117	18,724	38Chemicals and explosives.	. 290	793,516	51Consumer Goods (Mise.) .	2,698	1,247,710	74Scrap, metal 	4,108	2,742,353	53Scrap, other 	1,920	620,057	41Plumbing fittings and fix	tures 	. 928	239,564	72
Category
Number of
Sales Amount
Hardware	3,645
Electrical equipment .... 1,231
Builders supplies	 255
Packaging and containers 714
Aircraft salvage	 12
Durable goods, (Misc.) .. 2,233
Trucks and tractors	3,095
Passenger cars	 609
Motorcycles	 334
Automobile equipment ... 417 Machine tools and machinery	1,699
Fire fighting equipment.. 1,019
Diesel engines	 16
Pumps	 7
Marine equipment	 34
Heat treating units	 6
Ferrous metals	4,071
Non-ferrous metals	2,124
Ships	  96
Aircraft	^	 185
Aircraft engines	 85
Aircraft components	347
Aircraft instruments	 147
Aircraft raw materials .. 1,825 Aircraft engine components 43 Radio and radar sets ....	39
Radio and radar parts ... 734
437,307 78 379,141 20 91,008 91 227,553 90 10,530 01 1,829,805 78 1,753,996 96 254,310 83 306,969 78 102,724 82
10,792,458 17 483,551 92 26,090 75 1,783 76 35,496 61 1,642 32 2,258,212 06 761,929 38 3,472,723 12 1,296,951 93 140,241 64 892,867 30 32,558 46 678,301 30 282,769 17 60,755 22 271,792 31
38,369	$48,411,009 22
John Horne Blackmore: Would the minister give us an idea as to what percentage of the last few items he has mentioned are being sold outside of Canada, or has he any record? For example, he mentioned radar.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think all these sales were made in Canada. It is not the practice to sell outside of Canada material that becomes surplus in Canada.


John Horne Blackmore: That would apply to engines and aeroplanes' and everything?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think it is practically all sold here. I would not say that that statement covers the situation one hundred per cent, but I think that eighty per cent would be sold here in any event.


John Horne Blackmore: I was wondering
about the statement made last night about the ships that were sold to France by the United States firm.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would remind my hon. friend that that surplus did not arise in Canada; those ships were in the United Kingdom.


John Horne Blackmore: They were Canadian ships.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They were part of ilend-lease to the United Kingdom. The surplus arose in the United Kingdom. We did not require the ships in Canada; therefore we sold them abroad.


John Horne Blackmore: The items mentioned by the minister were all in Canada?
Demobilization-Reconstruction


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think that is largely true.
8.	Office of coordinator of regional reconstruction councils. The work of reconstruction is by its very nature a major undertaking which will require the concerted action of the federal government, the governments of the provinces, the municipal authorities, industry, labour, agriculture and the other economic groups in our society. Such concerted action will be possible only if each of the government authorities and each of the various economic groups assumes its appropriate responsibilities and only if there is a complete coordination of the programmes which may be initiated by the dominion government, the governments of the provinces and the municipalities. It seemed obvious that if this very desirable objective were to De attained, there should be established regional organizations which would act at once as interpreters of dominion government policy on reconstruction matters in the region concerned, and as media of first hand information for the Department of Reconstruction on reconstruction problems in that region. It was decided, therefore, to establish regional councils. There is one regional council in seven of the provinces and two of such councils in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. The chairman is an appointee of the Department. of Reconstruction and represents the dominion government on the regional council. He is assisted in his work by a full-time executive secretary and such other clerical and technical staff as may be required.
Since the size of the provinces and the variety of their economies varies greatly, the number of members on the councils has not been fixed. However, each council has a representative of organized labour. I would ask to be placed on Hansard the following statement giving the names of the chairmen, the executive secretaries and the members of each of the regional councils:
Regional Reconstruction Councils, November 6, 1945 British Columbia
Chairman: R. 0. Gampney, Esq., K.C., 744 Hastings St. W., Vancouver,
Executive secretary: Colonel A. W. Sparling. 744 Hastings St. W., Vancouver.
Members: Dr. Norman D. McKenzie. Dr. Howard T. Hames, J. W. McCarter, Colonel H.
S.	Tobin, Robert J. Pilberg, Horace W. Mackey.
Alberta
Chairman: Marshall M. Porter, Esq., K.C., 436 Lougheed Bldg., Calgary.
Executive secretary: Andrew Stewart, Esq., University of Alberta, Edmonton.
Members: Harold Long (Farming); Marvyn A. Dutton (Public projects); Paul Farnalls (Municipal affairs) ; E. T. Love (Industry); E. W. Brunsden (Irrigation); J. H. Scissons /Resources); Alfred Farmilo (Labour).
IMr. Blackmore.]
S aska tche wan
Chairman: William Jeffrey, Esq., Dominion Bank Bldg., Moose Jaw.
Executive secretary: H. C. Bingham, Esq., Bank of Montreal Bldg., Moose Jaw Members: F. C. Cronkite (Urban municipalities) ; P. C. Colquhoun (Agriculture); W. C. Wood (Rural municipalities); Wm. Walker (Veterans); A. Mayer (Labour); Aden Bowman (Liaison with provincial government);
C.	M. Willoughby.
Manitoba
Chairman: W. H. Carter, Esq., 200 Electric Railway Chambers, Winnipeg.
Executive secretary:	W. L. Parr, Esq.,
310 Electric Railway Chambers, Winnipeg.
Members: H. B. Lyall (Industry); D. G. McKenzie (Agriculture); Percy Beaehall. (Agriculture); John Spalding (Municipal affair's); John Dryborough (Mining); R. A. Pyne; J. L. McBridge (Labour); Neal Brown (Lumbering); G. F. Jonasson (Fishing); C. C. Millar. Northern Ontario
Chairman: John A. McPhail, Esq., K.C., Box 992. Sault Ste. Marie.
Executive secretary: N. C. Cowie, Esq., 519 Queen St. E., Sault Ste. Marie.
Members: E. A. Collins (Nickel and copper); Wm. B. Plaunt (Logging and timber); Wm. A. Thompson (Colonization and settlement); John McVey (Colonization and settlement); John H. McDonald (Highways and summer tourists); E. C. Popham (Highways and summer tourists); R. E. Dye (Gold mining); William Mahoney (Labour); Leo H. Timmins (Metals and metallurgy) ; Lynn Hollingsworth (Lumber and woods' products); Geo. W. McLeod (Iron ore);
D.	A. Clark (Timber industry); John Kilpatrick (Mining industry); I. N. L. Hill.
Industrial Ontario
Chairman:	Lt.-Col. W. E. Phillips, e/o
Research Enterprises Limited, Leaside.
Executive secretary: S. C. Ledingham, Esq., c/o Research Enterprises Limited.
Members: Allan E. Arscott, Senator G. Peter Campbell (Business); G. A. Dobbie (Industry); Luther F. Winehell (Paper industry); Ray Lawson (Industry); Dr. Thomas H. Hogg (Public utilities) ; J. Y. Murdoch (Mining); Gordon C. Leiteh (Grain and feed); J. C. McFarlane (Electrical industry); John Buckley (Labour); W. C. Good (Agriculture); A. O. Thormahlen (Agricultural implements).
Quebec (Montreal area)
Chariman: Hon. Wilfrid Gagnon, 916 Ontario St. E., Montreal.
Executive secretary: T. C. Thompson, Esq., 1155 Bishop Street, Montreal.
Members: Hugh Crombie (Heavy industry), John T. Thompson (Labour), Col. A. A. Munster (Eastern townships), F. W. Collins (Transportation), Henri C. Bois (Agriculture), J. Ernest Cadieux (Retail trade). Hector Authier (Mining), C. N. Moisan (Light manufacturing), J. E. Gibault (Economics), John B. Challies, G. A. Gagnon.
Quebec (Quebec area)
Chairman: J. A. Towner, Esq., 21 St. John St., Quebec.
Executive secretary: F. A. Dansereau, Esq., Rm. 204, 2S6 St. Joseph St., Quebec.
Members: Hector Cimon (Pulp and paper), Major Herve Baribeau (Industry-general), Maurice Samson (Misc. eco. groups), Gerard Picard (Labour).

Demobilization-Reconstruction
New Brunswick
Chairman: N. A. Hesler, Esq., Sackville, JN.B.
Executive secretary: R. H. Jones, Esq., B.O. Box 160, Sackville.
Members: T. G. Heatherington (Agriculture), P. G. Carlin (Labour), Ligouri Uouset (Labour), Mrs. Muriel Ferguson (Women of province), J. Hickman (Lumbering industry), R. G. Lougklin (Fishing), A. D. Taylor (Coal mining), C. N. Wilson (Industry).
Nova Scotia.
Chairman: A. Murray MacKay, Esq., c/o Maritime Telephone & Telegraph Co., Halifax.
Executive secretary: Roland D. Hurst, Esq., Rm. 415, Bank of N.S. Bldg., Halifax.
Members: W. Victor Aylward (Agriculture), Elmer Bragg (Lumbering), D. W. Morrison (Labour), Norman T. Avard (Mines), G. D. McDougall (Iron & steel manu.), W. H. C. Schwartz (Smaller mfg. interests), Allen Ferguson (Shipbuilding-steel), John H. LeBlane (Shipbuilding-wood), C. J. Morrow (Fresh fish industry), O. F. MacKenzie (Salt fish industry), Donald F. Maclsaac (Construction). Prince Edward Island
Chairman: Peter G. Clark, Esq., Summer-side. P.E.I.
Executive secretary: Major J. S. Wright, e/o Pr. Edward Is. Fur Pool Ltd., Summerside.
Members: Lucas R. Allen (Transportation), N. W. Lowther (Soldiers rehabil.), C. P. McCarthy .(Fishing), Edwin Reid (Agriculture), J. W. Boulter (Horticulture), J. A. MacDonald (Coastal shipping), M. MacLeod (Agriculture), Austin A. Seales (Industry), John A. Webster (Public utilities).


John Ritchie MacNicol: Will they receive salaries?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Only the secretaries receive salaries.
In order to coordinate the work of the various councils, there has been established with headquarters in Ottawa, the office of the coordinator of regional councils. In defining the functions of the councils, account has also had to be taken of the veiy different problems which will arise in the various parts of the country. However, the general functions of the councils can be described as follows:
(i)	To assist the dominion Department of Reconstruction in assembling information relative to the problems of reconstruction in their respective regions and in keeping such' information up to date.
(ii)	So to organize the respective regions that-(a) information concerning local reconstruction problems and concerning reconstruction legislation and policies shall be easily accessible to all concerned;
(b) all reconstruction activities within each locality shall be known and coordinated.
(iii)	To cooperate closely with provincial departments of reconstruction and, directly or
through local committees, with all organizations havihg to do with reconstruction problems;
(iv)	To encourage provincial and municipal authorities to have ready proper plans and specifications for capital projects which it is desired to carry out as soon as conditions of employment justify, with particular reference to-
(a)	works which provincial or municipal governments wish to carry out in the normal course as soon as labour and materials are available;
(b)	useful works which might be carried out at times when it is desirable to increase employment within the areas concerned.
(v)	To advise the minister and the department from time to time on reconstruction matters relative to the separate regions.
I feel that our solution of a number of reconstruction problems can be assisted greatly if the provinces, the municipaliites, industry, labour, agriculture and the other economic groups concerned will make use of the facilities offered by the regional councils. These councils will have complete information on the policies of the dominion government, and inasmuch as they represent all sections of the community, can serve a most useful purpose. Criticism has been made during the war years of the tendency to centralize administrative functions in Ottawa. The existence of the regional councils is an attempt to meet that criticism in the period of postwar reconversion and reconstruction. As a minister of the crown, I am, of course, always pleased to meet delegations from the various parts of Canada. However, I suggest that if full use is made of the facilities available in the regional councils, much time and expense will be saved by those who wish to submit their reconversion or reconstruction problems to the dominion government.
9.	Office of labour adviser.-In an address given at the annual meeting of the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada in October, 1944, I asked that organized labour assist me in the work of industrial reconversion. In considering the various ways in which this assistance might be made most effective, it was decided that an office of labour adviser should be established in the Department of Reconstruction and that the labour adviser should have a consulting committee. While I gave the names of the committee in my address on the speech from the throne, I would 'ike to mention their names again. They are as follows: Mr. John W. Bruce, trades and labour congress of Canada; Mr. Pat Conroy, Canadian congress of labour; Mr. Alfred Char-pentier, Canadian and Catholic confederation
235S

Demobilization-Reconstruction
of labour; and Mr. A. J. Kelly, railroad transportation brotherhoods. These gentlemen, while they are not officers of the department, are in a very real sense a part of our organization. The - committee meets at regular intervals with the labour adviser and with myself. The meetings to date have been of great mutual benefit and I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the members of the committee for their very helpful advice. Here again, I would like to suggest that a more adequate use on the part of organized labour of this machinery which we have established for consultation between the department and organized labour, would serve to prevent much misunderstanding and waste of effort. It is understood, of course, that the Department of Reconstruction has no jurisdiction in the field of labour relations as they affect rates of pay, hours of work and other matters which come within the scope of collective bargaining agreement. Such matters come under the jurisdiction of the Department of Labour.


Mr. FLEMING:: Mr. Chairman, I for one shall be glad when we have completed the consideration of the minister's estimates, because personally I find it monotonous to be as critical as I have had to be these last three days. I hope the committee will appreciate the fact that at the present time there is unfolding in the town of Leaside a tragedy which seems about to enter its final act. It is going to require determined action on the part of parliament to prevent this tragedy from proceeding to the final curtain. I hope the committee will appreciate the immensity of the factors involved, and for that reason I am going to give. some figures which will illustrate the tremendous size of the enterprise and the extent of the threatened loss.
I have no thought of mere carping criticism. On the other hand it is our duty to be constructively critical. In this situation I hope that it is yet not too late, and that if parliament makes its voice clearly heard, the minister will stop this tragedy. I refer to Research Enterprises Limited at Leaside in the county of York. This enterprise is one of the greatest in Canada's whole record of achievement in the field of wartime production. It is one of the marvels of industrial enterprise wrought by Canadians during the war. Every Canadian has a right to be proud of it; every Canadian has an interest in it. Every Canadian has an interest in preventing its becoming the subject of a colossal national tragedy.
The corporation in question is a crown corporation. I want to refer in introducing this subject to a description of it given by

Professor E. F. Burton, who is director of the Department of Physics at Toronto university, an eminent scientist who had much to do with the original proposals for the erection of the plant and the commencement of the enterprise which later took the form of Research Enterprises Limited. According to a return tabled in the house by the minister on October 13, we find that the corporation was organized in September, 1940. The buildings erected at this very large plant number twenty. The expenditure to acquire the assets involved was as follows: Land, $134,992.72; buildings, $3,525,181.77; machinery and other equipment, $5,400,0531.70; total expenditure on plant and equipment, over $9,000,000.
With that plant and equipment a marvel of production was achieved, amounting, according to the answer given in HansUrd at page 1826 of November 5, to $230,000,000 as of November 2, 1945. Imagine, $230,000,000 of production at that plan t I That is a great achievement, in which all Canadians may well take pride. I should like to quote from an outstanding address that was given by Professor Burton at the annual meeting of the Ontario Educational Association in Toronto in April, 1944. Speaking of the company he said:
This is a crown company formed by the federal government, at the instigation of the national research council, but under the management of an independent board of directors nominated by the ministry of munitions and supply. While projected in the first instance for the manufacture of optical glass and optical instruments for the armed services, from the beginning it has produced also various secret devices connected with Radar.
The necessity of war-supply in Canada has led to extensive production in fields of manufacture entirely new to this country. This work necessitated not only the construction of extensive buildings and the purchase of large quantities of highly specialized equipment, but it has developed a comprehensive practical knowledge of production methods in fields hitherto unknown in Canada.
This company is unique among Crown companies for the fact that it did not develop from nor was it based on, any manufacturing concern, or group, already engaged in some form of munition production. In spite of the fact that it began only in September, 1940, it has grown until it now comprises some twenty buildings and over 7,000 employees. Its annual production is valued at many millions of dollars.
Roughly speaking, the operations of the company are along two main lines:	(1) optical
glass and optical instruments, and (2) special radio equipment used in Radar. The relative monetary values of the outputs of these two divisions are in the ratio: optics 3 to radio 11.
Although the word "research," appears in the title of the company it is purely a producing company. Of course, problems are continually arising which need immediate solution and, as a consequence, a considerable amount of develop-

Demobilization-Reconstruction
menit engineering has always been in progress. Many operations have been improved, and new devices designed, so that the term "research" is really not a misnomer.
I shall come back to that address later.
This enterprise has also been eminent, I should almost say unique, in respect of its industrial relations, because throughout the entire five years during which it has been in operation, industrial harmony has prevailed in the plant. The workers are organized in local 1039 of the United Steelworkers of America, C.I.O., and they have been given creditable leadership by the union officials. I pay my tribute to the responsible executive leaders * of that union for the constructive work they have done in connection with that plant.
The immensity of the undertaking may also be appreciated by the fact that there are over
1,000	classifications of employees of all kinds. This will give the committee some idea of its size and importance and some conception of the extent to which skills have been developed at this plant. Let it not be said that they were only partial skills, or that it was just a case of a worker fitting into some minute place in a long assembly line. Not so; the efforts involved in the operation of the plant are of a highly skilled nature. I go further and say that there have been developed in this plant skills and techniques which are new in Canada. I should like to refer to a return that was made to this house on October 13 by the Department of Reconstruction. I asked for certain figures in regard to the number of employees, and this was the information I was given. The number of employees at the peak of production was 7,518. Now, watch the drop that has occurred in recent months. The day before V-E day, last May, saw a drop in the number of employees to 5,552. On the day before V-J day the number had dropped to 4,896, and on October 1 it had dropped to 3,187. To-day I am informed that the number of workers at that plant is less than 2,300. So that there has been a steady decrease.
By way of illustration of the point I made in regard to the introduction of new skills, I should like to refer to another return, No. 5. I had asked how many persons were brought to Research Enterprises from outside Canada to work at the company's plant at Leaside. The answer was fifteen, of whom thirteen were .brought from the British isles and two from the United States. Those men introduced new skills. I happen to know something of the work that was done, and I say, and I think the committee should have full appre-47696-149
ciation of the fact, that new skills and new techniques hitherto not developed in Canada were developed in this great plant. If these new skills and techniques, having taken years to develop, are dissipated, it will take years to replace them.
I am not going into details of production at the plant. I have already said it was a marvel of production. I am not going into the technical aspects, because I am not a technician. But one might refer to the place that radar had in the winning of the war. It was Sir Stafford Cripps who said that if any one factor contributed more to the winning of the war than anything else, it was radar, and this is the plant in which radar was developed. The manufacture of optical glass was carried on at that plant, something that was brand new in Canada. Nowhere else in Canada has optical glass been manufactured.	.
May I refer to one or two other answers that were given at page 1811 of Hansard of November 5, in reply to questions I had asked in respect to Research Enterprises. Of the total production of $230,000,000, radar represented approximately 80 per cent, optical instruments 19^ per cent, and optical glass one per cent.
I shall not take time to dwell on the research that has been developed at the plant, because that was ably covered by the hon. member for Parkdale (Mr. Bruce), speaking in the house on October 30, as reported at page 1658 of Hansard. What I have said up to this moment has been descriptive of the enormous scope of the undertaking, the tremendous contribution it has made to the winning of the war, and its value as a national asset to Canada.
Now I come to another part of the story which cannot be painted in glowing colours, but only in dark tones. It is the beginning of the tragedy of disintegration. One of the things the Minister of Reconstruction has done has been to sell one of the buildings. Let us be quite clear in our understanding of this. I do not think any of us would object to the sale of any of these buildings if we could see that by that sale there was a guarantee of employment and of good wages and working conditions, and as well the assurance that no serious damage would be done to the possibilities of development or use of the rest of the plant. But what do we find? One building has been sold out of twenty. It was sold on June 15 to the Corning Glass Company. That company is, it is true, a glass manufacturing company, but it is not a manufacturer of optical glass.

Demobilization-Reconstruction


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh, oh.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am speaking of their operations at the plant in question, not of their operations in the United States.
' Mr. HOWE: Let me say that the Corning Glass Company have made three-fourths of all the optical glass that has been made in the United States in the war period.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I made it quite clear that I was not speaking of the operations of Corning Glass Company in the United States; I am speaking of the operations in the building they purchased from the department.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are not operating there. The building has not been delivered to them.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Building No. 14 was sold to the Corning Glass Company for $150,000 on June 15 of this year. If you will look at the return I am referring to, questions 2 and 3, October 17, you will find that the original cost of that building was $522,000. It was sold to the Corning Glass Company on June 15 for $150,000-less than a third of the cost. What guarantees were obtained as to employment or wages or working conditions? None. The return I have referred to shows that the Department of Reconstruction obtained from the Coming Glass Company no undertaking or agreement whatever in regard to maintenance of employment, maintenance of wage rates, continued union recognition.
The glass plant at Research Enterprises where optical glass was made is building No. 2. That building to-day is being used simply for the storage of benches and desks. No production is being carried on there. The building sold was not the glass plant; it was No. 14, the mobile assembly plant.
It is apparent that the department not only is prepared to sell buildings with little regard to the maintenance of employment, but has been taking no steps to prevent destruction of equipment. May I just here refer, to the fact, which you will find on page 604 of Hansard, that when building No. 14 was sold to the Corning Glass Company no other tenders were called. There were no tenders for a building which represented one of the most important assets of that great enterprise. Now, where the plant assets of the country are sold, it surely should be on a basis of calling for tenders and fair prices, with some assurance of employment.
The hon. member for Winnipeg North referred the other evening to this matter of destruction of equipment, and to certain questions and answers to be found at page 603 of Hansard. I quite agree with the hon. member's interpretation of the third question, in which he asked, referring to this destruction

of equipment: "Did any of the employees ask permission to buy material *which is being destroyed?" The answer given was yes, and that Research Enterprises Limited had no authority to sell.
This matter of destruction of equipment belonging to the country was discussed in the House of Commons. The hon. member for Red Deer discussed in this house on September 17, and in the Toronto Globe and Mail of September 18, page 2, there appeared an article headed, "Asks Commission Probe Destruction of War Materials." It is a staff report to that newspaper, based largely on the remarks made the previous evening by the hon. member for Red Deer. That statement in the Globe and Mail was noted by the employees in the plant, and I will read now a statement signed by twenty-one persons. who were employees of the plant at that time. It bears their signatures, and is dated September 18, the day on which that article appeared in the Globe and Mail:
In reference to morning paper of September 18, 1945 re breaking up of radar equipment, 'we the undersigned state that we either assisted or watched employees of R.E.L. dismantle and break up monitor chassis No. 11 of R.X.F. unit.
There were over 250 monitor No. 11 chassis broken up on September 13th and 14th and 17th instant.
I suggest that this matter calls for an accounting on the part of the department, and the department owes the House of Commons a frank and complete answer on at least these points: (1) On whose orders was that valuable radar equipment destroyed? (2) Was it done with the knowledge of the department at the time? (3) What knowledge has the department gained of this destruction of radar equipment since? (4) What steps has the department taken in the light of the knowledge so obtained?
I said something on the subject of trying to be constructive in our approach to these problems. We are not 'underestimating the size or the gravity of the problem. Here is a great national asset with a wonderful record in time of war. What are we going to do with it? Well, there are many peace-time uses to which this plant could be put. As long ago as a year and a half Professor Burton, this great authority who had so much to do with the commencement of operations at this plant, laid before the public and the government some concrete proposals. I quote from the speech of Professor Burton to the Ontario Educational Association. He opened that part of his address with these words:
It should be pointed out particularly that the company has gathered together into one team a large number of capable scientists and technical

Demobilization-Reconstruction
men-chemists, engineers and physicists-whose services should be retained, if possible, for future operations.
Then he goes on to discuss particularly the post-war possibilities of this great plant:
The scale upon which the operations of the company are carried on is so vast, that it is out of all proportion to any, conceivable comparable operation in peace time. Still, it is one unit in wartime industry which will have to be considered whenever "full-time post-war employment" is considered. The future might well be dealt with under the following three main headings:
(1)	instrument division
(2)	radio division
(3)	glass-making division
(1)	Instrument division. The type of production during war time has been limited to articles required by the services, such as telescopes, sights, and range-finders-but this work has esatblished in Canada a completely new industry. There is ample accommodation in equipment and supply of personnel to maintain a very efficient and paying business, not only in all kinds of optical instruments, but in the manufacture of general scientific apparatus to meet the demands of schools and colleges throughout Canada.
Practically every item in the latter category was imported from foreign sources before 1939. It will be nothing short of a calamity if we let this business slip from our hands.
Inasmuch as these facilities have produced technical equipment for the services, there can hardly be any doubt that these services will wish to keep at least a skeleton organization for future development. This could well share in an arrangement under which general scientific apparatus might be produced.
(2)	Radio division. The construction involved here practically all belongs to the secret
' category and constitutes .an entirely new development in the broad field of radio. No one can guess at its future but it opens great vistas of advance for all civil transportation and navigation problems.
(3)	Glass-making division. Here, again we have an industry completely new to Canada, and here also the company has built up a very efficient organization from the point of view of both labour and technical staff. There is no doubt that the company is turning out vast quantities of optical glass which is equal in quality to any in the world. The company has benefited by the experience of some of the oldest glass firms in Great Britain and America. The particular success in this field is largely due to the lifetime experience of the president, Colonel W. E. Phillips, in the glass industry.
Aftdr going on to emphasize the calamity that would befall this country, if this plant, the scientists and technicians assembled in it were simply allowed to disintegrate, Professor Burton points out the needs of the schools and colleges and educational institutions in Canada for scientific equipment of the kind which has been produced in the plant, and which could still be produced, and has this to say concerning the danger of the plant falling into the hands of an international cartel:
47696-149J
Unless we wake up to the insidious .action of this international movement tending to handcuff production in as many countries as possible, we in Canada will revert to the position of "hewers of wood and drawers of water" for some fascist state of the future.
I appeal to you all-
This is his appeal to school-teachers in the province.
-to use your influence with the people and particularly, the public men in Canada to make every effort to retain for peaceful ends what has accomplished such a fine job for the war.
The need for action is immediate-
That was April, 1944. We are sitting here on November 21, 1945, a year and a half later.
-because, as war production falls off, the technical staff of Research Enterprises Limited, employed in the design of apparatus could be put immediately on the design of school and college apparatus. We cannot wait for the .actual end of the war in order to be ready for peace.
These. are prophetic words. Professor Burton also had this to say:
I wish to make a special appeal for your support in every public w.ay possible for the retention, for the people of Canada, of the skills and personnel which have developed in such a great way during the years of war.
Has Professor Burton changed his opinion? No. I made a point to communicate with him and got his opinion on the point, and this is what he said on November 10:
I feel just as strongly in regard to this matter as I ever did, and have no objection whatever if you quote my opinion on any occasion. At the present moment, the universities of Canada are in a quandary with regard to the purchase of scientific apparatus, and the country will probably be buying from the United States several hundred thousand dollars worth of scientific apparatus which, with some reasonable forethought, might have been produced in our own country and at Research Enterprises Limited. I thoroughly believe that if we had approached the matter of making scientific apparatus for peace in the same spirit in which we made the scientific apparatus for war, we would be in a satisfactory position at the present time and would have already established in the country a worthwhile scientific manufacturing institution.
Yours sincerely,
(Sgd.) E. F. Burton,
Director.
We have heard a good deal in the house, and properly so, and particularly from the hon. member for Nanaimo, about the imperative necessity in these days, and in the days to come, of closely coordinating our national defence plans with industry. Here is a plant that produces radar, one of the things that contributed most to the winning of the war, and apparently the government is just sitting back and watching this great undertaking disintegrate, watching the technicians and scientists leave to seek employment elsewhere. The future of this plant is definitely and intimately related to the whole programme of
Demobilization-Reconstruction

national defence in this country. On the one hand we dare not lose' control1 of Research Enterprises Limited, mor on the other hand dare we fail to carry on the work that has been done there in the development and manufacture of radar.
Is there anyone who will venture to say that we have even begun to tap the ultimate possibilities of radar? Look at this great country of ours. The uses that radar could be put to in Canada are simply infinite. The needs of radar throughout the world at the present time cannot be exaggerated. Here is this great plant. Are we to maintain the manufacture of radar at this plant? It might be likened to a permanent arsenal. I suggest that the words of the hon. member for Nanaimo, words of warning about the necessity of coordination of our industrial plants with our defence plans were timely words of warning.
I am not going to belabour the subject of research which was covered so fully by the hon. member for Parkdale in his great speech on this subject on October 30. Fortunately there is little left for me to say on that subject. The amount which is being made available by the government for expenditures on research is lamentably small. If we as a government and a parliament are to contribute what we ought to be contributing to the development of this country, to the development of its tremendous potentialities, we must give every possible encouragement to industrial research. Here is a plant which in the narrow sense of the word is not a research plant alone; it is in one aspect a pilot plant, the kind of plant necessary to carry research plans into industrial facts. It is only by a plant like this that the plans which are worked out in laboratories by laboratory technicians in research operations can be translated into fact. Dare we go on and starve this plant out? If we do, it will be nothing short of a national calamity. I think parliament ought to be fully conscious of the tragedy that is apparently moving on to its conclusion.
In my closing remarks I wish to refer to some questions of mine which are found at page 1811 of Hansard. Question No. 8 was this:
What attempt, if any, has been made to adapt (a) the products; (b) the producing capacity, of this company to peace-time uses?
The answer was:
Discussions have taken place with national research council and the Department of Transport on the adaptation of certain products to civilian and other use.

Question No. 9 was:
What attempt, if any, has been made to make the -products of the company available to educational- institutions and research laboratories?
The answer was:
Answered by 8.
Question No. 10 was:
What assets of the company have been listed with War Assets Corporation for disposal?
The answer was:
Land, buildings, equipment and materials, as they have become surplus to company needs, have been so declared to War Assets Corporation over a period of several months.
Question No. 11 was:
Are the buildings of the company available for rent or sale?
The answer is, Yes; under certain conditions.
Apparently there is no plan that the Department of Reconstruction has for the retention or use of this great undertaking. Seemingly it is simply to be put up on the auction block, piece by piece. If prompt action is not taken soon to preserve the essential parts of this plant for the need that I have mentioned, the need of defence and the development of radar, then a national tragedy will have been consummated. Where are the government's promises of full employment? What about the fulfilment of the government's promises and' extravagant talk of full-time employment? How about a little fulfilment of the promises? Are we simply to stand by and hold our hands, as the government is apparently doing, and watch the disintegration of this corporation and the disbandment of this competent, staff of scientists and technicians? Are we to watch the dissipation of skills that are new in Canada? If we are, then I say we are content to witness a national catastrophe. That may be strong language; it is not too strong in the circumstances. For years we have been talking about the necessity of our attracting whole new industries to Canada. Everybody has been saying, let us have new skills introduced in Canada; it is the best thing for the country; let us have all the new skills we can get. Here is one case where new skills actually were introduced in a marvellous way, and to-day we are simply sitting back and watching the whole thing being disbanded. With our arms folded, we are watching it disintegrate. I suggest that the time has come when we must demand action from the government.
The need for pressing on with research, the need for retaining all the scientists we have in this country was never more apparent than it is to-day. I would quote some remarks made

Demobilization-Reconstruction
by the president of Toronto university, Doctor Sidney Smith, at an industrial scientific research conference held in Toronto in June last:
I place it before you, gentleman, as a problem of major importance and of considerable size; the problem of retaining the research men in Canada. Are we going to train these men for industry and research institutions in Great Britain and the United States? I know your answer will be, "no." The universities are looking to you for assistance in promoting research to the end that the best brains in this particular activity may be kept in Canada for the development of Canadian industry and the development of Canada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have listened with a great deal of interest to the speech made by the member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Stewart) and the speech made by the hon. gentleman who has just resumed his seat (Mr. Fleming) with reference to Research Enterprises. I think they both shbw a colossal misconception of the part that Research Enterprises plays in the industrial life of 'Canada. The hon. member who last spoke said he thought it necessary to be critical. I think he paid me and the Department of Munitions and Supply an appreciable compliment. Research Enterprises was started from the grass roots late in 1940. It was completed under the guidance of the Department of Munitions and Supply, and particularly the guidance of the national research council, and it was able to produce $268,000,000 worth of production from the date of its completion up to the present time.
My hon. friend has suggested that it is a pilot plant. I may say that I never knew a pilot plant produce on that scale. I wish to make it quite clear that this is a manufacturing plant and nothing else. It was built to produce in volume the inventions and developments of the national research council. That is the role it has had. Every article,	with very few exceptions, was
developed in the form of a prototype in the laboratories of the national research council in Canada and was sent to Toronto for manufacture. That is the function of the plant. It is a manufacturing plant. The tools needed are manufacturing tools. Research is carried on at Ottawa; development work is carried1 out at Ottawa, and the manufacturing is done in Toronto.
I made it a condition when the plant was built that it would not be a research plant. All my experience has indicated that such a plant should be one thing or the other, either a research laboratory or a manufacuring plant. The first suggestion was that this plant should be built-in Ottawa, and Dean Mackenzie agreed with me that it would be well to put it in another city so that we
would not have those concerned with research interfering with the operations of the plant, and so that it could be made clear that it was a manufacturing plant and not an experimental laboratory.
The plant has been producing at the rate of something over $8,000,000 a month for a great many months. What has it been producing? 1 turn to page 1812 of Hansard where my reply appears to questions asked by the hon. member who has just spoken. The total production of approximately $230,000,000 as of November 2, 1945, appears on that page. The question was asked, what was the production? The answer was that radar represented eighty per cent. That means that radar was $180,000,000. What are the peace-time uses of radar? There are a few limited uses and' one will come into being on ships. Almost in a day or two we have produced all the radar equipment for ships of the most modern type, and I may say that we are rather advanced in comparison with other countries in that we 'have produced all the radar equipment for which we have ships to use it, ships on the Canadian register. It is all there in the plant, and we are making arrangements to work out some practical scheme of renting the equipment to ships for use.
I wonder if anyone has any conception of what $180,000,000 worth of anything is. It is a tremendous amount. My hon. friend said that Professor Burton had stated that for the next few years we would be probably importing $500,000 worth of school equipment from the United States.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Scientific instruments.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, we could make $500,000 worth of scientific instruments in this plant in two days.


John Ritchie MacNicol: You would not expect anything else of a professor, would you?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is typical of Professor Burton, with whom I have been associated.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: Some professors have done a good job in this war.


Clarence Decatur Howe: He is a professor of physics, and when you say that you have told the whole story. To go on with the enumeration, optical instruments represent 19^ per cent, and that would represent about $45,000,000 worth of such instruments. We have in store in the plant optical glass to fill any possible requirements of Canada for two years, and we made that in one day. There is $40,000,000 worth of optical instruments, and I do not need to elaborate on the chance of that being
Demobilization-Reconstruction

disposed of or of our being able to sell $40,000,000 worth of optical instruments over the next twenty years.
Research Enterprises is a war plant. True, it employed at its peak 8,000 men. The Bren gun plant employed 14,000 at its peak and to-day it is not employing any people on the type of work it did at that time. . Research Enterprises is making radar equipment and special optical instruments which are not required in peace time. The two plants are exactly on a par as far as that is concerned.
We could hold that vast plant as a standby. We could manufacture radar for anyone who might need it. We might say, We will save the plant so 'that we can manufacture this equipment, although we have enough optical glass for two years. But at the end of two years, it may be said, we may need more and more, and we will save the plant for that purpose. We have enough optical instruments left from the pipeline to supply Canada for the next four or five years. We are sellers of optical instruments in a big way, if anyone wants telescopes or binoculars. We can sell these things on a wholesale basis and we shall have them in stock for a considerable time.
That is the situation at Research Enterprises. Now, here is a great plant the work for which has ended, and the question is, shall we keep the plant for its original purpose? Shall we keep the machinery? We cannot sell the product unless the government proposes to spend $8,000,000 a month to keep the staff employed. Otherwise, I do not know of anything that they can make in quantity which could be used. That is one question. The next is, should we use the plant to provide a centre of employment for the same skills that we used1 there, by turning it over to private enterprise which can manufacture and sell on a scale that will mean real employment.
The hon. member spoke about bringing in Corning Glass. Coming Glass has done a fine job throughout the war years. We manufactured optical glass at Research Enterprises by a process we borrowed from the United Kingdom. We borrowed it for the duration of the war, and we have a firm undertaking that we have the right to the process only for the duration of the war. In. other words, unless we can make some agreement with Chance Brothers, who own the rights, we are out of business in any event, with the present process.
Another factor has come in, and that is that glass used in optical instruments made for war purposes in the United States has been made by a different and considerably
	-
cheaper process. If in ken or fifteen years we need to come back to a large scale production of optical glass we would certainly use a process more modern than that now installed at Research.
Why did we bring in Corning Glass? May I say that I brought them in on the advice of the president of this plant. He gave me as his reason that Canada should have a glass industry, that Corning were the most modern people, and that he thought it would be a fine potential for war to have them established in Canada.
We sold a building. That was a building for a special purpose, and it was not one readily convertible to any particular manufacturing process. We built it under an agreement with Corning that they would spend $800,000 in remodeling and reequipping the building, and that they would bring to Canada a part of their production which would be new to the Canadian market.
True, we got a price for the plant which took account of the fact that extensive alterations and remodelling would be necessary. I think that is reasonable; we have done it elsewhere. We must always consider that a plant built for one purpose may not be readily convertible to another purpose.
Mr. MaeNICOL :	Nor the machines,
either.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This was purely a matter of a building. However, we brought in Coming because we believed that we were bringing in a desirable new industry in the glass field, and that we were bringing in an industry which would use skills which were available in that area. We believed that we were safeguarding the requirements of Canada in the event of another war, so far as optical glass is concerned.
I can tell my hon. friend that for a long time we have had plans as to what we are going to do with this other building. The difficulty in announcing it is that we have not finished with this war. There are still contracts that have not been cancelled, outstanding at Research Enterprises for some $30 million for war equipment. It is necessary to finish those contracts-and this will take until April of next year-before we can consider any further disposal of the building. But when that time comes we shall have tenants there that will use skills of a tpye which were employed in Research Enterprises. The volume of employment will not be as high as it was during the peak period; but on the other hand we shall have at least
3,000	people employed in that property, when

Demobilization-R econstruction
our present plans mature. I dlo not know of any other procedure which would permit em. ployment to that extent in that area.
I believe that it is a practical approach to reconversion in this instance. I am perfectly sure that the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario, who is financial critic for the official opposition, would disapprove if the government spent $8 million a month, as it has been doing for several years, to maintain employment in that plant. I am perfectly certain no one can suggest any output of radar equipment, optical instruments, or optical glass which would justify anything like the employment we visualize as a result of the conversion that is in process at that, plant.
It has been a great experience to be associated with the plant. The hon. member has spoken about the scientists there. Most of the scientists were on loan from the national research council.


Mr. WRIGHT:: One of those professors the minister was talking about a little while ago?


Clarence Decatur Howe: He was borrowed. Many scientists worked between the research council and that plant. But on the strength of the plant itself there were not many men who qualified as pure scientists. Those who have so qualified will be absorbed into the national research council. We are short of scientists; we need everyone we can get. For instance, we need them for Chalk River. Steps have already been taken to retain those men who have special skills which would be valuable in the future work of the national research council.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: Is provision being made for paying them decently, so that we can prevent their going to the United States?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Steps are under way to that end. We are paying a bit more now than we did before, and we hope to do better still.
The skills will be preserved. Any equipment of special value for scientific work will be moved to Research laboratories. Skeleton equipment will be preserved at Research Enterprises. It is not intended to sell the glass section of the plant, since it is not readily convertible for any other use. We are turning that over to Canadian Arsenals Limited. In the buildings which make up the present glass plant will be a skeleton of sufficient size to carry out all the operations which were carried out in the Research Enterprises plant itself.
In this way we shall preserve all the techniques, and take care of all the special skills.
There are not so many men having great skill in the plant. Most of them were men who acquired their skills in a. short time, and who could readily convert those skills to other types of production. We are going to use the plant in the only practical way I can think of, which would bring a substantial employment into that area; and we are going to complete that reconversion as soon as we can clear the plant of its war work.


Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):: The minister has not answered clearly some of the questions which were asked. I am led to believe that Research Enterprises Limited is to be closed down for all practical purposes by next April. Am I right or wrong in that inference ?
Then, I should like to- know if any recommendations have been made to the minister by the management and officials as to the future development of the plant. Are negotiations in process for the sale of any part of the plant, and when will the committee be able to learn the name of the customer? Are tenders being asked for the sale?
Then, a specific charge has been made that radar was destroyed, and affidavits have been produced in support of that charge. The minister has denied this. Here we have black against white; here are the two poles. There is no in-between. Would the minister say whether radar has been destroyed at the plant of Research Enterprises Limited?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will answer the questions put by my hon. friend as I remember them. First, he asked, when will the operations of Research Enterprises cease? They will cease in either April or May, 1946. He asked whether negotiations were under way to dispose of the buildings. They are. I cannot give any further answer until the negotiations are closed, without prejudicing the negotiations, but we are carrying on negotiations for a type of operation which will use the same skills that are now used in the plant and which will engage workmen on a scale that we think is exceptionally good for that area. The hon. member asked whether tenders were being called for. They will be called for if we can find a second industry which we think can fill the bill as well, but we consider the maintaining of the same skills in the same area as being more important than getting the last dollar for the sale of the buildings.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: Has a. recommendation been received from the management of the plant about this plant?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think the only recommendation I have seen is the one made by Professor Burton, which has been quoted here. Professor
Demobilization-Reconstruction

Burton was a director of the plant. The management of the plant-I consider the president and the general manager as being the management-have recommended the course of action we are following, namely, that the plant be turned over to a private industry which would engage skills similar to those now being used.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Who recommended that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The president and the general manager.


Mr. COLD  WELL@: I have some recollection of a recommendation being made, possibly by a group of sub-managers or foremen, as to how this plant might be used and maintained as a public enterprise to meet the needs of Canada in radar, optical glass and so on. Am I wrong in that? I think it was last June.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I received a report last June pretty -well along the line that has been mentioned here to-day. The providing of instruments for public schools presents a difficulty from the employment angle because there is not the necessary volume. The question of operating the plant as a non-profit enterprise was carefully considered, but the difficulty was that we could find no line of manufacture which offered a volume sufficient to justify the use of a plant that size.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: What about radar?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have a report on that which I have sent for. There was some equipment which had been spoiled in process and which the management felt they should get rid of. It was destroyed still further, so that the secret process of manufacture would not be revealed. I would prefer to read the report to my hon. friend when I receive it.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: I
vould prefer to wait until the minister receives it.


Mr. BRUCE:: I should like to add a word to what has been said to-day by the hon. member for Eglinton on a subject which I introduced into this house on October 30 last. And I shall not repeat what I said then, because it can be found in Hansard at pages 1658 and 1659. I was very much interested in what the minister said a moment ago in regard to the disposition of Research Enterprises Limited. On Oct. 11 I asked some questions in regard to this industry, which will be found on page 929 of Hansard. The questions were as follows:
Have any suggestions or reports been made to the minister by the administrators of Research Enterprises Limited as to the disposition

of this property or its possible future use? If so, will the minister lay on the table of the house any documents or reports relating thereto?
To which the minister replied1 as follows:
Recommendations have been made. They are made by officers of the department to the minister, and I regard them as confidential documents. It would be impossible to table them at this time, when the disposal of the plant, more or less along the lines of the recommendations, is under consideration. After the transaction is closed and the property has been dealt with I shall be glad to table all the relevant documents.
Would the minister mind tabling that report now? If he cannot d'o so to-day, perhaps at an early date.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad' to have another look at the report because I do not even know who prepared it. When I have seen the report I shall give instructions about tabling it.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: It would be most instructive to the committee to know just what the director of Research Enterprises thought the future of that plant should be. I do not know just what was recommended, but I would have thought from the observations of Professor Burton and others that they had in mind the retention and operation of the plant, at least for the purposes which were indicated in my speech of October 30 and which have been referred to to-day by the hon. member for Eglinton.
The minister stated a few moments ago that his intention is to retain the buildings which make up the present glass section of the plant as a skeleton to carry out all the operations which were carried out in the Research Enterprises plant itself. I am glad to hear that, because I think that could form the nucleus of a plant which would be of great use to the country in the event of another national emergency, particularly if the personnel who had attained such great skill during the last four or five years were retained1. I only need to repeat what I said before, that it would be a great calamity if this country lost the * benefit of that expert skill which has been developed during these war years. I have no doubt there will be plenty of useful work for them to do at no great expense to the country. I do not think the minister should suggest that we approve expenditures of $8,000,000 a month. I have in mind an expenditure of a few thousand dollars a month.
Reference has been made to the various scientific instruments that could be used by our universities and schools. I should like to refer again to just one thing that was produced at Research Enterprises, viz.: microscopes. Most of us know the optical instrument firm of Zeiss.* That firm was subsidized by the German government and kept in

Demobilization-Reconstruction
operation during the years of peace until it became one of the greatest manufacturers of microscopes -and other precision instruments in the world' and whose products were so valuable during the war. Another reason why the minister should retain that part of the plant is to be found in a recent news report, which I assume is correct, to the effect that Russia had taken over the Zeiss plant in Germany and was moving it to Russia. We should be independent of any foreign country in the production of these scientific instruments so essential for any national emergency. Therefore I urge the minister to retain as much as possible of the facilities of Research Enterprises as well as skilled technicians, which I am glad to learn to-day, he intends to do.
I should like to add a word of commendation for the marvellous work that has been done at that industry during the war years.
I have been through it on a number of occasions. I have admired the efforts made there by the scientists and the workers generally and particularly the work of those in charge of the whole administration, Colonel Phillips, the director, with whom was associated Brigadier Wallace, seconded I believe, from the national research council.
. I spoke on another occasion of the necessity of keeping this plant going in order to provide facilities in arsenal research for the benefit of all the armed services. If this work is to be done in a satisfactory way all the research for the three armed services during the coming years should be centralized under the control of the national research council, which is supported by the government. We know from recent developments that we have not yet reached the limit of armaments for war, that greater and more efficient armaments of destruction will be found, and although that' is a sad prospect, we must continue to do our part in research and in developing improve-' ments to enable us to defend ourselves in the event of another attack. I hope that what has taken place recently in Washington may ultimately result in the control of the atomic bomb and atomic energy. If it does not do so, it is* indeed a sad outlook for the human race.
I shall like to add a word in support of what the hon. member for Eglinton said this afternoon, that research is not sufficiently supported in this country. We have done less than any other country in the world to support research. I hope that the Minister of Reconstruction will remember this and use his influence with the government to have many millions of dollars set aside for purposes of research in Canada. This money, distributed through the national research council 47696-150
would find its way into the laboratories and facilities provided in the universities and medical colleges throughout Canada. We have the facilities in Toronto university as they have in Montreal, Winnipeg and elsewhere for a great expansion in research. All we need is additional money, and I nan think of no department in which money could be spent to greater advantage in the long run than in the promotion of scientific research, Of course, at the moment housing takes priority over everything else.
I wish to say a word in regard to the important part played by the universities of Canada in the problems of reconstruction. The financial burden placed upon the universities in providing educational facilities for our returned veterans must be met by the dominion government, because it is part of their rehabilitation programme and their responsibility.
I might mention briefly how the problem of providing for additional students returning from the war has been met by the university of Toronto. The board of governors were not able to find any buildings in Toronto which could be converted for the use of these returning soldier students, and they were fortunate in being able to arrange with the government, through the Minister of Reconstruction, for the rental of the Ajax buildings built at Pickering, >a distance of some twenty-two miles from Toronto. The cost of alterations and additions to these buildings, plus equipment, to accommodate some 3,000 students will be in the neighbourhood of $786,000, which amount is being provided by the government of Ontario. This property is rented from the dominion government at a cost of $50,000 a year. The courses will begin at Ajax under the aegis of the university of Toronto in January next for some 2,200 returned men.
Next autumn the university of Toronto is planning to provide accommodation for 4,500 students. This will fall short of the number of returned men which it is expected will have to be taken care of. Next year we shall be hard pressed for accommodation, and the university would like to get the Eglinton Hunt club which is now occupied by the air force for research.
If my suggestion of a few weeks ago and again to-day that all scientific research for the three services should be integrated and placed under the national research council were adopted, it should be possible to remove research from Eglinton and give the use of this -building to the university of Toronto. It would be most useful because there are no further buildings available in Toronto. If the university of Toronto is to undertake

Demobilization-Reconstruction


Mr. MACKENZIE:: Has that not been raised? I thought that amount was raised to $150.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: The $150 is to reimburse the university itself, but I understand the amount paid to the student for his living expenses is $100 a month. I think that is a very fair sum, considering the amount given at the end of the last war as a bonus to the man who served, namely $140 altogether.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend is quite correct. It is not $80; it is $80 plus $20 if the student is living away from home. It is $100 a month.

Demobilization-Labour


Herbert Alexander Bruce: That was my understanding.
I should like to comment on another point in this connection. There is a proviso that if the student earns by some other work a sum of over $40 a month, the amount he earns over that sum is deducted from the amount given to him by the government. I intended suggesting in the committee on veterans affairs that the amount be raised to $75, so that the student would not be penalized until he had earned more than $75.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
Humphrey Mitchell: Mr. Chairman, on previous occasions when I have spoken in support of the estimates of the Department of Labour, the accent was on mobilization for the armed forces, munitions plants and other industries highly essential to the war effort. For some time now we have been concerned with mobilization for the new era of peace.
The war took a heavy toll of Canada and of other members of the united nations but we are fortified in knowing that our country is stronger, more productive and more resourceful than we had previously realized. I did not have the opportunity of making a statement earlier this year because of the short sitting leading up to dissolution of the nineteenth parliament. Therefore, in a brief Way, I would like to bring the committee up to date on the activities of the Department of Labour. First of all, when hostilities ended, we were fully aware of the importance of and our responsibility for facilitating the return to civilian life of men and women who served in the armed forces; and of placing in other work those made idle by the cancellation of munitions contracts.
The general demobilization policy of the government, as you know, has been "first in, first out" and that, I think all will agree is sound. However, it was immediately appreciated that there were in the armed forces men who had held key positions before enlistment and that their speedy release would be helpful in the reconversion plans of industry and business; specifically in providing more jobs for the men being released after service in the war.
Order in Council 3683 passed on May 24 last provided for an industrial selection and 47696-150i
release board in Ottawa and regional committees in Halifax, Saint John, Quebec, Mont>
real, Kingston, Toronto, London, Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton and Vancouver. The chairmen of the committees are members of the judiciary, who formerly acted as chairmen or members of the mobilization boards Thus there has been available the information and' experience accumulated by those boards.
The board at Ottawa and the local committees represent the Departments of National Defence (Navy, Army and Air Force); Labour; Reconstruction and Supply and the Wartime Prices and Trade Board of the Department of Finance. From their inception the committees have received a great many applications for the premature release of men from all three forces. Every application has been given careful consideration.
Under the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act, passed in 1942, men and women are legally entitled to return to the positions which they left to join the armed forces without loss of rights which would have been theirs had they continued in such positions. We have expedited the release of such persons if in Canada because they were going back to former employment and thus would not be taking jobs that might be made available to others who had enlisted earlier in the war. Prior to August 14, applications for releases approved by the committees were forwarded tc the board in Ottawa for review. From that date, the committees have been given the right to make final decisions and forward recommendations directly to the armed service concerned.
Realizing the need for speedy construction of 50,000 housing units to ease the situation which in many important centres has been so serious for the families of veterans and others, the committees and the board at Ottawa have done everything possible to speed up the release of building trades workers. It was stipulated that men who applied for their discharge or for whom application was made must have had at least one year's experience as bricklayers, carpenters, plasterers, plumbers, roof and electrical workers.
In addition efforts have been directed towards the early discharge of men for the manufacture of bricks, cement blocks, tiles, tools, shingles, plumbing and electrical fixtures.
We have recognized also that it w'ould be helpful to reconversion to arrange for the release of men who would be of substantial use in A or B priority industries and servicemen experienced as coal miners, lumbermen
Demobilization-Labour

and so on. We have not limited such applications to employers. Applications also have been accepted from employer organizations, trade unions, and the employment service of the Department of Labour. The information requested so that these applications could be considered was as to the experience of persons concerned in the work to which they wished to return. Through the procedure outlined, we have done everything possible to see that university, secondary and elementary school teachers were discharged without delay as there has been a shortage in these categories for some time.
A government services selection and release committee was set up' for the purpose of recommending the release of former civil servants needed in the departments which they left to join the forces.
We have been dealing for a considerable time with the problem of re-settling service personnel in civilian life. The Employment Service of the ^Department of Labour recorded more than 334,800 such placements from April, 1942, to September 30, 1945. Actual discharges from the forces up to September 30, 1945, numbered 383,000, so it will be seen that through the employment service we have handled a number of repeaters, which, under normal conditions, is inevitable;
To handle this work properly, we set up a veterans' placement division, with a supervisor of placement attached to the head office in Ottawa, and regional supervisors in the maritimes, Quebec, Ontario, the prairie provinces and British Columbia.
Armed forces registration units were established in the local employment offices and veterans' employment advisers chosen to act as counsellors and work in co-operation with the officials of the Department of Veterans Affairs. Their duty is to provide information, advice and assistance in carrying out the government's rehabilitation program.
The staff of the unemployment insurance commission was augmented by the reinstatement officers to make sure that the regulations of the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act were observed. Our experience in administering that act indicates that employers generally are eager to fulfil their obligations.
Five methods of vocational training to exservice personnel include: pre-employment, indentured apprenticeship; correspondence courses; training on the job in industrial and commercial establishments; and in certain cases pre-matriculation.

Training allowances paid are $60 a month for single persons and $80 a month for married persons with additional grants for dependents. Where necessary the government has been supplementing the income of ex-service men apprenticed under the "training-on-the-job" plan. The Department of Veterans Affairs determines those eligible for training, the length of course, and training allowance. The vocational training branch of the Department of Labour, in co-operation with the provincial governments and private organizations, of course provides the actual training. Up to September 30 the training branch had enrolled 17,530 ex-servicemen and women. Of this number 12,116 were enrolled since April 1. There were 7,490 in training on October 1. The others had been placed in employment.
Last April a Royal Commission on Veterans' Qualifications was set up under the chairmanship of Colonel Wilfrid Bovey of Montreal to study the problem of granting civilian credits to ex-service people for experience, skill and knowledge acquired during service with the armed forces. The report of the commission was tabled in the house on October 29 of this year. Action has already been taken on several of the recommendations made.
The peak of war employment was reached in September, 1943, when 860,000 persons were on the payrolls of plants across the country. The total dropped to 675,000 by the end of 1944 and to 150,000 as of October 1, of this year. This gradual reduction assisted our employment offices in dealing with the situation as it developed in each major centre.
That good work was done is indicated by the fact that the total number of job placements in the fiscal year 1944-45 was 1,728,084. The job done, Mr. Chairman, is an indication of the magnitude and the efficiency of the machine built up since 1941. In my judgment it reflects resiliency and the ability to face up to any given problem by the people of the country and the civil servants employed by them.
Many of the plants which were engaged in munitions production returned with comparatively little delay to the making of capital and consumer goods, absorbing a substantial percentage of released war workers, the majority being men. This type of production should be steadily increased, for it is obvious that the people of Canada will be heavy buyers in the next year or two of numerous commodities they could not get during the war.
One has only to think of automobiles, refrigerators, radios, household appliances of

Demobilization-Labour
all kinds, furniture, clothing and many other items in the production and distribution of which factories, warehouses and stores should be busy for a considerable time.
May I say this in passing. You cannot face the inevitable problems of peace from a negative point of view, and I am convinced of this, that just as we built the greatest indus-rial machine in the life of this nation, and built it in a very short time after the outbreak of war and the fall of France, given the co-operation of the Canadian people, leadership in the part of employers and workmen's organizations and also in agriculture, together with this government, we can make just as big a contribution to peace as we made to the recent war.
Of course, we shall lean heavily upon the initiative of our manufacturers and business men in the production of goods which will ensure high employment. The ingenuity and drive which they displayed in the war years is a definite assurance of this.
Gold mines-and here I am looking at my Social Credit friends-should absorb a substantial number of men formerly employed in war plants. The total employment in gold mines dropped to 15,000 this year. Upwards of 35,000 men could be employed in the industry. Base metal mines, lumbering and production of pulpwood for newsprint and other uses will require a large number of men.
I wish to make this point with all the emphasis at my command. We shall not achieve our goal unless management and labour walk up the road together. Bickerings and strikes will be a millstone around our reconstruction, which is possible only on the basis of just and friendly partnership between capital and labour.
I might refer in passing to the recent tie-up in Windsor, and I hope that my hon. friends throughout the House will join with me in the sincere trust that these differences will be shortly patched up and that this great industry will be in full production again.
The change from war to peace-time employment has naturally involved the question of comparable wages, types of jobs and1 the movement of persons from communities where they were war-time residtents. Some of the training and experience gained' in munitions plants will not be used1 now, but on the whole a great deal of it has equipped men and women to do better work and to improve their earnings in peace-time- production.
I would be remiss if I did not say how splendidly our women played their part during the war years. We estimated that
as of April 1 last there were 1,046,000 women gainfully employed in the Dominion of Canada. This figure did not include 31,000 women in the armed forces and 800,000 women engaged on the farms of the country. When the war in Europe ended the regulations affecting employment of women were removed,, restoring to them the freedom to seek their own jobs.
With the closing down of war industries, many women, particularly married women, have made no effort to seek other employment. This trend is especially marked among the wives of returning war veterans. They have preferred-and I think this is a pretty sound conclusion to arrive at-to return to home-keeping.
For others there have been opportunities for employment in hospitals, restaurants, hotels, laundries, offices, the textile and other industries. The Employment Service of the Department of Labour is doing everything possible to assist women in adjusting themselves to peace-time conditions of employment. Women of course will be entitled to participate in our vocational training plan.
We have to meet the problem of placement for the large number of young persons who had never worked before they went into the forces, as well as of those who are physically disabled. A special division of our employment service works in close co-operation with the casualty rehabilitation section of the Department of Veterans Affairs.
It has been found during the past war that the loss of limbs and even of sight does not necessarily handicap persons from obtaining gainful employment. Employers generally understand that the physically handicapped person may not be vocationally handicapped. * We have been placing handicapped persons at the average rate of over 1,400 each month for some time. About sixteen per cent of them were handicapped ex-service men.
In this work we are co-operating with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, the council for the guidance of the handicapped of Vancouver, and the associations for the deaf and hard of hearing.
A great deal of reliance will be placed upon our vocational training program and on our apprenticeship order to fit men and women for jobs in this reconstruction period.
So far a total of 696,000 students of both sexes have enrolled for all types of training, and the total federal expenditures have amounted to more than $28 million. The larger proportion were trained for the armed forces and industry during the war.
Demobilization-Labour

Our present vocational training plan is covered by P.C. 1648, following recommendation made by the Vocational Training Advisory Council and after full discussions with provincial educational authorities. Under this order there are dominion-provincial agreements to cover a ten-year period. The dominion government will contribute S20 million during the ten years, with an equivalent sum being contributed by the provincial governments. In addition, $10 million is provided to be spent in the next three years on physical facilities for vocational training such as modern shop equipment.
We expect to carry on under the old youth training agreements with the provinces in order to provide assistance primarily to rural young people and to young people leaving school; also to provide financial assistance to university students.
Anticipating the needs of the post-war period we already have in operation ten-year apprenticeship agreements with all the provinces except Quebec and Prince Edward Island. We hope to complete an agreement with Quebec before long. These apprenticeship agreements will be especially helpful in the building and construction trades.
National Selective Service was adopted early in 1942. It was necessary to guide the stream of workers into the more useful and essential war-time jobs. As I said earlier, I think it can be said in a big and broad way that we measured up to our responsibilities in that regard. As we all remember we had to impose a freezing order on various classes, particularly those engaged in high priority war industries and in the production of primary materials. We even had to freeze teachers in their school jobs in order to ensure that schools would not be closed. At the first opportunity we discontinued many of these controls. That affecting teachers was lifted some time ago.
On September 3, all those movedl by the compulsory labour transfer orders had restored to them the right to go back to their old jobs. As of September 17, we ended the freezing of workers in designated establishments. The right to advertise freely for employees, provided that there is clearance through our employment offices, has been restored to employers.
As of November 15, men no longer were "frozen" on farms and we ceased the compulsory direction of men to mining and other basic industries. The emphasis now is on freedom of the choice of jobs and employees by the worker and employer respectively.

Regimentation may be necessary in war time, but it is my profound conviction that it has no place in the Canadian economy in time of peace.
Let me say this-and' I think. I have said it before-that when we were going through those very difficult times in 1942, when the British people stood alone, when we were hanging on the ropes, so to speak, and when it became my duty to direct the organization of the man-power of this country, I said that I hoped that no action of mine, taking the long view, would interfere with the basic principles of freedom which have made the British people what they are. I hope in the not very distant future completely to eliminate all man-power controls which were set in motion in order that this nation might be organized for victory.
With me, freedom is a religion. Remember this: the two great forces that destroyed Germany, Japan and their allies, came from free people. I refer to radar and the atomic bomb. One cannot think in a vacuum. This war and the last one have vindicated the science of government and the principles of freedom given to this nation and the world by the British people, Of course, when I speak of the British people, I am speaking in the broadest sense.
The principal controls still in effect are, of course, the permit system-which will go down the drain, too, in the not very distant future-under which a man may not accept a new job without a permit. From this, however, certain industries are excepted, such as agriculture and fishing.
Seven days notice must be given by male and female workers or by an employer wishing to end employment, except where shorter notice is provided for in the regulations or by an employment office.
They are the only two man-power controls we have left at the present time.
Unemployed men are still required to register at the nearest employment office, if unemployed for seven days.
Labour exit permits must be obtained by anyone wishing , to seek or enter employment outside Canada. They are, and will be, granted much more freely than they were during the period of the war.
Our ultimate objective was to change over to a National Employment Service to which employers and employees alike will come of their own accord. We are in a position to give service to the nation in employment matters - which we believe will equal that given anywhere in the world.

Demobilization-Labour
In the administration of selective service civilian regulations we have tried to be fair at all times. Between July, 1943, and September 1, 1945, 57,510 contraventions of the regulations were reported and investigated. In most cases, adjustments served the purpose. Courts of referees under the Unemployment Insurance Act were used in that connection.
I am happy to report that as a result of P.C. 1003-which many people, may I say, discuss without a knowledge -of the basic principles of the order-establishing the wartime labour relations regulations, there were in 1944 only 199 strikes and lockouts as compared with 402 in 1943. The number of workers involved was 75,290 and the time loss was 490,139 man-days, as against 218,404 workers and a time loss of 1,041,198 man-days in 1943.
The Wartime Labour Relations Regulations have advanced the development of trade unions as bargaining representatives. Since they were established in March, 1944, the national and regional boards administering this order have dealt with 3,113 applications for certification, of which 2,006 were granted.
During the same period, our conciliation officers have dealt also with 242 cases in which employers and employees had not been successful in their negotiations for collective bargaining agreements.
A great deal of work has also been done under the Conciliation and Labour Act in the way of preventing industrial disputes from becoming serious.
I believe the Department of Labour's activity is steadily increasing in value to workers, industry and the country.
We now have 382 labour-management production committees in a variety of industries employing an aggregate of 236,000 workers. These committees have been set up under the Industrial Production Co-operation Board established by P.C. 162. It is the government's intention to encourage the formation of more of these committees as we feel they will be very useful in meeting the problems of reconversion.
The wartime wages control order and price stabilization have formed a barrier against inflation. Inflation would greatly have hampered our war effort. Fortunately, the government's policy has been successful and prices have been held down very well, which has placed us in a good position for post-war recovery.
Since the policy became effective in November, 1941, the cost of living index of the Dominion Bureau of Statistics has risen by
only 4-2 points. Previously from 1939 there had been a rise of 14-6 points, making a total of 18-8 points after adjustment to the base, August, 1939, equalling 100. To take care of this increase we first had the cost of living bonus plan and later we merged the bonus into basic wage rates. The cost of living index rose by 87-5 points from July, 1914 to October, 1920, (after adjustment to the base July, 1914 equalling 100) and by 72-7 points from October, 1916, to October, 1920.
That will give the committee some indication of the measure of success of the prices and wage stabilization policies of the Canadian government. Only to-day I was talking to persons who have just returned from the continent where prices are completely out of control. In France the black market is about the only place where one can purchase anything. In Belgium, in Holland, in Germany, in Italy, and even in Great Britain, they are back to the $10 shirt of the last war. I think it is the self-discipline of the Canadian people and the leadership of the Canadian government that have made the stabilization of our country possible.
This means that the cost of living during the forty-eight months October, 1916, to October, 1920, increased 68-5 points more than during the corresponding period of the present war October, 1941, to October, 1945.
There have been adjustments in wages where it was shown that they were unfairly low. Decisions given by the regional and national boards have greatly increased the incomes of workers without jeopardizing our price stabilization policy.
There has been an increase in the wage rate index from 105-3 in 1939 to 144-7 for 1944. The base of 100 is the average for 1935 to 1939 inclusive.
And now I have some information which I had intended giving to the committee prior to dissolution of the nineteenth parliament.
First, in connection with the mobilization section of National Selective Service, I recall that there was in the minds of many members of this House the feeling that we had been remiss in tracing men who had not reported when called up for military service.
The latest report, revised to September 30, showed that 807,580 men had-entered the armed forces of Canada and 278,651 were on, or applying for, postponement. The bulk of the remaining pool of men consisted of'those who were declared medically unfit to the number of 615,904.

Demobilization-Labour

In April, 1944, I informed the committee that there were 49,001 men of military age unaccounted for. More than 300,000 mobilization orders subsequently were issued. As of November 3,	1945, the number of men
unlocated had dropped to 10,649. This figure represents 0-57 per cent of the total number of men in the designated age classes. The R.C.M.P. and commercial reporting agencies were of great help in tracing these men.
We located others through the order compelling employers to report to divisional registrars the names of those who were not in good standing under the mobilization regulations. This order was repealed on June 26 last.
In order to dispel any doubt as to the accuracy of the statistics both in Ottawa and in the offices of the divisional registrars, we retained the firm of Peat, Marwick, Mitchell and Company, chartered accountants of Montreal, to audit the mobilization records. Our statistics were found by this firm to be accurate'within the margin of error of 2-2 per cent.
Early last spring we undertook a spot check of designated men who had been granted postponements to work on farms. The check proved that these men were living up to the conditions under which they obtained postponement.	*
We have, of course, this year continued to co-operate with the provinces under signed agreements to secure the highest possible diversion of labour to farm work, especially for the seeding and harvesting seasons. It was appreciated that Canada had to produce large quantities of food to meet the urgent needs of Europe, as well as of our own country.
More than 1,900 men from the prairies came east during the latter part of June to help in Ontario and other provinces and 5,000 men went from eastern Canada to the prairies this past autumn.
There was quite a large movement of women workers from Saskatchewan and Alberta to British Columbia for fruit-picking in the Fraser and Okanagan valleys. The federal Department of Labour has paid all the expenses of moving workers from one province to another and has shared equally with the provinces the expenses of movements within the provinces.
The navy, army and air force again cooperated by granting leave to several thousands of men to assist at the peak of farm activities and we have also used prisoners of war.
In order to maintain adequate production of coal for our industries we continued to exempt coal miners from -the military call-up, to the time the order was suspended.

We have, of course, given special attention to essential civilian production such.as meat packing and fish canning plants, flour mills, building construction, coal delivery, ice harvesting and delivery.
The importance of meat packing plants has been continually before us. In September, 1944, the total number employed was 15,800. By the middle of December we had increased this figure to 20,000. We were able to divert a large number of farmers to the packing plants during the winter months.
The threat of a stoppage of work in packing plants across the country in October was averted, I am glad to say, because of the good sense displayed by the employers and workers and the action taken by the government.
The production of timber has always been important. In View of the continued high demand for pulp for the newsprint and other industries, last winter, as in former winters, we directed idle farm labour to the woods. There were twenty-five per cent more farm workers engaged in these operations during the winter of 1944-45 than during the previous winter.
We have used the services of prisoners of war in lumbering camps. At present more than 9.500 are so employed. Altogether there are now about 15,200 prisoners of war employed, the others being on farms and in manufacturing establishments.
I should interject here that during the year about 2,900 prisoners of war, together with about 3,500 Japanese evacuees, have been employed on sugar beet farms in Alberta and Manitoba.
Let me say in passing that had it not been for the Japanese and the prisoners of war we would have had no sugar beet crop in Alberta nor, I think, in Manitoba. It was just one of those jobs of organization, where we had to move in quickly in order to save the crop.
Such employment has been reflected in the current sugar beet crop which is the largest ever harvested in Alberta, amounting to
355.000	tons. This, according to sugar company officials, will yield over 115,000,000 pounds of sugar, exceeding the record 1942 production of 103,000,000 pounds.
Mr. MaeNICOL: Is that for all Canada?


Humphrey Mitchell: No. The figures I have given are for Alberta only.
We gave top labour priority to the building of veterans hospitals. Where tradesmen of special skills were not to be had in one part of the country, they were brought from other sections and the government paid the trans-

Demobilization-Labour
portation costs. As a matter of fact, we are giving labour preference to all housing construction financed under the National Housing Act.
We undertook housing surveys in various centres to determine not only the minimum housing needs but also the availability of skilled and semi-skilled labour. In addition, a registration was taken of all men who have had experience in the building or construction trades so that they .would be released from the jobs they are doing and returned to the building industry.
I cannot pass on without expressing my appreciation of the work of the national joint conference board of the construction industry. With representatives of employers and employees sitting around the table, there has been developed a real appreciation of the interests of both sides. Much study has been given by this board to problems involved in the change from war to peace and there is a desire that this board shall continue to function during the years ahead.
The Wartime Bureau of Technical Personnel has been an important branch of the Department of Labour. With demobilization and the closing down of war industries, the Bureau's attention is now being directed to the reconstruction programme and to the replenishment of engineering and scientific staffs of large employers.
The Japanese division of the Department of Labour has been engaged during the past year in the supervision of approximately
24,000	Japanese across Canada, of whom 75 per cent are Canadian citizens and 61 per cent are born in Canada.
We have had to provide maintenance for 3,900 unfit people and education for 4,000 children. A royal commission last year, and various inspectors since that time have described our welfare and educational facilities as reasonable and adequate.
Of the Japanese in Canada, 61 per cent are living in British Columbia, 21 per cent on the prairies, and 18 per cent in eastern Canada.
We have continued to use adult Japanese in various forms of labour, on fruit and sugar beet farms and in lumber camps. We have at the present time 9,000 Japanese employed in useful occupations.


Mr. COLDWELL:: Are they all Japanese
or Canadians of Japanese origin?


Humphrey Mitchell: They are in all three
categories.


Major James William Coldwell: The 9,000?


Humphrey Mitchell: I could give my hon.
friend a. break-down of the figure if he wants it and if we have it.
On August 4, 1944, the Prime Minister spoke at considerable length' in this house, outlining the policy which was to be followed respecting people of Japanese origin living in this country. This is on the record and does not need repetition by me. I should like, however, to summarize briefly the main features of this policy and then to review the steps which have been taken to give it effect.
First, the Prime Minister expressed recognition of the concern felt by. British Columbia at the possibility of again having concent trated within its borders virtually the entire population of people of Japanese origin in Canada. As he stated, in the past this has . led to so much bitterness and strife that it must be avoided in the future. This should be done, not only in the interests of the people of British Columbia, but also of the people of Japanese origin themselves.
Second, for the future protection of people of Japanese origin who have remained loyal to Canada during the war, as well as to eliminate those who have shown that their true allegiance is not to Canada but to Japan, a basic feature of the policy was that those who have shown disloyalty to this country during the war should not have the privilege of remaining here.
Third, that in the years after the war, without any declaration which would be binding indefinitely into the future, Japanese immigration should not be permitted.
Finally, and most important, even though problems of assimilation are extremely difficult, people of Japanese origin who have been guilty of no disloyal act or who have not displayed any disloyal intent, must be treated fairly and justly. As stated by the Prime Minister:
For the government to act otherwise would be an acceptance of the standards of our enemies and the negation of the purposes for which we are fighting.
The Prime Minister then outlined tentative measures for carrying out the policy. He said it would be necessary to establish a quasijudicial commission to examine into the background, loyalties and attitudes of all persons of the Japanese race in Canada to ascertain those who should not be allowed to remain here. The government's intention was to have these persons, whether Japanese nationals, British subjects by naturalization or by birth, deported to Japan as soon as physically possible. He said also that there may be some who voluntarily indicate a desire to
Demobilization-Labour

proceed to Japan. For these, he said, no further examination would be required and whatever their national status they would be allowed and encouraged to go as soon as could be arranged. Then he stated that the remainder, if properly admitted to this country and wishing to remain here, should be allowed to do so, but added for the reasons cited:
They should not be allowed once more to concentrate in British Columbia.
My purpose in reviewing the main features of the policy is to make it clear that the repatriation policy on which I now wish to make a statement is a part of the general policy as annouiieed by the Prime Minister and represents no departure from it.
At various times during the war, groups of persons of the Japanese race have indicated that it was their desire to go to Japan during the war or as soon thereafter as possible.
In the early part of 1945, a survey was made to ascertain how many there were who desired to be repatriated to Japan. All persons of the Japanese race who could readily be located were requested to indicate voluntarily their wishes in this respect. No coercion or force or any pressure of any nature was used. On the contrary, every precaution was taken to see that there could be no basis for a charge of coercion.
There is a total of 10,347 involved in the voluntary requests made for repatriation. Of this number, 6,844 actually signed requests- the remainder are dependent children under sixteen years of age of those who signed. Those signing included 2,923 Japanese nationals, 1,461 naturalized Canadians and 2,460 Canadian-born. Of the 10,347 involved in the requests, more than 70 per cent were residing in the interior housing settlements in British Columbia wfien the survey was undertaken.
Up to September 2, 1945, the date of the signing of the Japanese surrender, only a very insignificant number had applied to revoke these requests. Since September 2, 1945, applications for revocation have reached us in considerable numbers.
As the first step in the repatriation of this group, the government decided that it was necessary to obtain the advice of General MacArthur, the supreme allied commander in Japan, as to when he would be prepared to receive these repatriates and we have been advised that he is prepared to accept them whenever shipping arrangements can be completed for the transportation of these people to Japan.

The government is of the opinion that, in general, all Japanese nationals who have requested repatriation, should be repatriated because it is quite clear that their loyalty is to Japan rather than to Canada.
On the other hand, the government is of the opinion that where any Canadian citizen of the Japanese race who applied for repatriation has subsequently submitted in writing prior to the Japanese surrender on September 2, 1945, an application to cancel his repatriation request, such cancellation should be permitted.
It is also proposed to review those cases of Canadian-born persons of the Japanese race who may have applied, subsequently to the Japanese surrender, to revoke their request to be sent to Japan.
Let me say, with all the emphasis at my command, that no coercion was exercised1 in the taking of requests for repatriation from persons of the Japanese race. I would not stand for it for one minute, neither would the government nor the people; this, is a free country. To support that contention I should like to refer to the fact that recently a thorough investigation was made by the International Red Cross with respect to this very matter. A charge was made by Japanese spokesmen that there had been intimidation, and the report of the commissioner is to this effect, that there could1 be no question whatsoever of intimidation, and that the word had been used wrongly.
We now come to our old friend the conscientious objector. On September 30 we had registered 10,873 as conscientious objectors. About 70 per cent of them have been employed on farms. There are 196 in alternative service work camps. These are men who have refused to abide by our regulations.
Under P.C. 5980 we discontinued on November 3, the reserve labour pool of longshoremen at Halifax. This plan has worked out well in expediting the turn around of ocean vessels. The arrangements with regard to the pool provided for a government guarantee of a minimum weekly wage.
Payments under the guarantee naturally were higher in the summer seasons but as ship loading picked up in the autumn and through the winter, disbursements by the government were reduced.
In January, 1945, the average number of man-days worked was nearly 50 per cent greater than in January, 1944, and the net cost to the government under the guaranteed

Demobilization-Labour
wage plans was only $6,300 as compared with $75,000. The daily average volume of cargo handled over the wharves, exclusive of the Bedford basin, was 6,500 tons as against an average of 4,200 tons in 1944.	_
During the fiscal year 1944-45 the contributions of employers and employees under the Unemployment Insurance Act, administered by the unemployment insurance commission, amounted to $63,730,896. Under the Act, the dominion government contributes 20 per cent of the cabined employer-employee contributions which amounted to $12,746,179.
Interest on investment securities and profit on sale of these totaled $6,195,927, bringing the revenue up to $82,673,002 for the year.
Claims allowed during the year numbered 83,175, and benefit payments amounted to $4,966,483. leaving a net revenue for the year of $77,706,519.
The balance at the credit of the unemployment insurance fund on March 31, 1944. was $190,327,941. When the net revenue for the twelve-month period of 1944-45 just referred to is added, it will be seen that the fund on March 31 last stood at $268,034,460. The amount at September 30 was $296,779,305.
There has been some comment on the necessity of continuing our national registration. It was of the greatest possible use in connection with military call-ups as well as tracing persons for the dependents allowance board and relatives of those discharged' from the armed services, in assisting the immigration branch in locating and checking alien merchant seamen and refugees, locating members of war-dispersed families for the International and Canadian Red Cross, and helping the Department of Veterans Affairs in finding veterans and their relatives. National regis-* tration cards are being used for identification purposes in the cashing of family allowance cheques.
Before taking my seat, Mr. Chairman, I should like to make brief reference to the international labour organization.
Canada, as you know, has been a staunch supporter of the I.L.O. since its formation twenty-six years ago. For several years we maintained a permanent office in Geneva; and when in 1940 the I.L.O. was forced to move from Geneva,- we were glad to furnish it with a temporary home in Montreal.
The I.L.O. was set up to deal with vital problems following the first great war. It accomplished much. To-day a much greater post-war job is facing it.
The 26th session of the International Labour Conference held last year in Philadelphia was
one of particular importance. The Canadian government, employers and organized labour were well represented.
The Conference reaffirmed among other principles, in what is known as the Declaration of Philadelphia, that "labour is not a commodity", that "poverty anywhere constitutes a danger to prosperity everywhere", and that all international economic and financial policies and measures should be considered in the light of these great axioms.
The Governing Body of the I.L.O. met in Quebec last June. This was the first IX.O. meeting ever to be held on Canadian soil. I then had the honour, on behalf of the government, of welcoming the representatives of the sixteen countries participating. At this meeting methods of securing a high rate of employment in the reconversion and postwar period took top place.
Canada was represented at the 27th session of the International Labour Conference which was held in Paris during October and extending into November this year.
I now ask that the following statistical statements be reproduced in Hansard:
1.	Employment operations of national employment offices.
2.	Wage trends.
3.	Cost of living indexes.
4.	Comparison of changes in cost of living indexes.
5.	Cases dealt with by the National and
Regional War Labour Boards.	t
6.	Cases dealt with by the Industrial Selection and Release Board and committees.
Table 1
Employment Operations of . National Employment Offices
Vacancies notified and placements effected by local employment offices during period March 30, 1945 to September 27, 1945:
Provinces	Vacancies Placements Notified Effected	
Prince Edward Island-		
Males 	2,491	l',720Females 	1,369	1,110Total 	3,860	2,830Nova Scotia-	Males 	31,809	21,271Females 	10,641	6,734Total 	42,450	28,005
Demobilization-Labour

Provinces	Vacancies Notified	Placements Effected
New Brunswick-		
Males 	
Females 	... 29,885 .. 8,210	17,511 5,578Total 	.. 38,095	23,0S9Quebec-	Males 	
Females 	.. 296.314 .. 87,100	169,810 39,860Total 	.. 383.414	209,670Ontario-	Males	
Females	.. 377,319 .. 153,379	228,389 80,461.. 530,698	308,850Manitoba-	Males 	
Females	. . 21,940	24,677 14,363Total 	.. 60,420	39,040Saskatchew-an-	Males	
Females 	.. 10,861	15,024 7,202Total 	.. 33,347	22,226Alberta-	Males 	
Females 	.. 43,131 .. 19,452	28,115 12,862Total 	.. 62,583	40,977British Columbia-	Males	
Females 	.. 113,278 .. 39,654	75,494 24,737Total 	.. 152,932	100,231Canada-	Males	
Females	. 955,193 . 352,606	582,011 192,907Total 	. 1,307,799	774,918
Table 2 Wage Trends
Total salaries and wages, index numbers of employment and index numbers of wage rates in Canada for the period 1920-1945.
Index Numbers
Salaries Employment1 Wage Rates2 and wages1 1926=100 1935-39=100
1920.	... $2,477,573,000	112-71929.	... 2,803,573,000	119-0	104-51930.	... 2,625,472,000	113-4	105-219bl.	... 2,290,236.000	102-5	101-71932.	... 1,910,808,000	87-5	94-51933.	... 1,740,589,000	83-4	89-61934.	... 1,870,685,000	96-0	90-51935.	... 2,016,186,000	99-4	93-11936.	... 2,162.216.000	103-7	94-81937.	... 2,432,219,000	114-1	101-81938.	.. 2,454,348,000	111-8	104-9

Index Numbers
1939		Salaries Employment1 Wage Rates2 and wages1 1926=100 1935-39=100 2,554,519,000 113-9 105-3		
1940	2,881,980,000	124-2	109-41941	3,489,399,000	152-3	119-11942	4,197,051.000	173-7	129-01943	4,654.000,000	184-1	139-91944	4.816,000,000	183-0	144-91945 (Jan	-Sept.) ....	176-5	
1 From Dominion Bureau of Statistics. The wage and salary figures do not include payments to the armed forces.
2 From Department of Labour. The figures include cost-of-living payments.
Note.-The index numbers of wage rates apply to wage rates only, not salaries.
The changes shown by the index number of wage rates are not necessarily reflected in the total wages and salaries earned, as total earnings are affected also by the changes in the size of the working force (employment index) and by the shift from "short time" in depression years to "overtime" in boom years.
Table 3
Cost-of-Living Indexes
Cost-of-Living Index Numbers for Canada and Certain Other Countries On the base of August, 1939 = 100
Note-The index figures in each case are the latest available
Canada, October, 1945	 118-8
United States, August, 1945	 131-1
United Kingdom, September, 1945....	131-0
Australia, June, 1945	 122-7
New Zealand, June, 1945	 114-0
India (Bombay), May, 1945	 219-0
South Africa, July, 1945	 133-9
Eire, May, 1945	 168-8
Mexico, July, 1945	 213-8
Chile (Santiago), May, 1945	 227-6
Switzerland, August, 1945	 153-3
Iceland (Reykjavik), August, 1945...	267-0
Egypt, March, 1945	 292-3
Data supplied by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics.
Nov. 2, 1945.
Table 4
Comparison of Changes in Cost-of-Living Indexes
In Canada and certain other countries since October, 1941, when regulations and control of prices and wages were put into effect in Canada.
Change in points since October, 1941
Canada, October, 1945	 4-2
United States, August, 1945	 20-1
United Kingdom, September, 1945.	2-6
Australia, June, 1945	 12-7
New- Zealand, June, 1945..'	 5-5
India, May, 1945	 100-0
South Africa, July, 1945	 23-5
Eire, May, 1945	 37-0
Mexico, July. 1945	 101-0
Chile, May, 1945	 86-0
Switzerland, August, 1945	 20-5
Iceland, August, 1945	 100-0
Egypt, March, 1945	 137-0
Data supplied by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics.

Demobilization-Labour
Table 5
NATIONAL WAR LABOUR BOARD Statistics
Types of Applications received by the National and Regional War Labour Boards under P.C. 8253, P.C. 5963, and P.C. 9384, from November 15, 1941, to September 30, 1945.
-	Wage increase	Cost of living Bonus	New positions	Vacation with pay	Welfare plans	Wage In- centive plans	Mis- cellaneous applica- tions	Totals1,259	175	690	217	57	85	553	3,036E	574,721	76,496	46,515	316,279	20,245	12,690	369,116	1,416,062554	5	125	23	8	20	735E	3,592	170	1,279	512	124	237	5,9142,382	161	481	59	111	25	136	3,355E	75,952	11,012	6,864	24,341	7,335	6,801	25,942	158,2472,137	102	706	53	90	30	63	3,181E	28,409	7,184	28,975	10,204	7,564	5,363	6,674	94,37312,051	1,145	1,389	951	1,233	79	1,903	18,751E	595,358	260,472	198,892	503,694	462,523	12,279	740,310	2,773,52816,394	1,141	5,123	1,075	1,312	339	2,749	28,133E	334,865	137,921	133,395	239,237	155,798	33,736	485,343	1,520,295Manitoba	C	4,782	171	1,579	190	278	45	227	7,272E	32,333	4,649	5,621	13,103	18,016	1,277	16,197	91,196Saskatchewan	C	7,049	134	1,628	84	85	49	397	9,426E	31,855	5,149	8,312	1,935	5,851	1,857	12,850	67,8093,658	297	1,511	96	235	28	461	6,286E	42,652	14,421	21,367	9,595	19,820	1,887	33,906	143,64811,197	444	7,225	622	429	76	2,201	22,194E	121,695	15,930	64,314	74,685	31,045	2,391	92,644	402,70461,463	3,775	20,457	3,347	3,853	764	8,710	102,369E	1,841,432	533,404	515,534	1,193,073	728,709	78,405	1,783,219	6,673,776
C-Number of Cases.
E-Number of Employees.
Table 6


INDUSTRIAL SELECTION AND RELEASE PLAN
[Stage Direction]
Disposition of Applications received up to November 1, 1945. 1. Industrial Selection and Release Committees
-	London	Toronto	1 I B M	Montreal	Quebec	Halifax	Saint John	Winnipeg	Vancouver	Regina	Edmonton	Government Services	TotalReceived	3,203	9,507	1,630	4,794	897	1,264	1,047	2,492	4,702	1,403	1,611	538	33,088Recommended	2,155	7,950	1,442	4,490	817	1,036	818	2,127	4,196	1,173	1,379	533	28,116Rejected	919	1,263	187	203	32	205	96	353	398	104	185	2	3,947Deferred	1	26	0	0	0	0	0	0	16	105	21	0	169Cancelled	116	178	1	53	48	23	56	0	86	1	20	3	585Yet to be considered	12	90	0	48	0	0	77	12	6	20	6	0	271
2. Industrial Selection and Release Board
Received	
Recommended	
Rejected	
Cancelled	
Yet to be considered.
Individual	Group
Applications	Applications
6,444	1,192
6.237	1,192
34	0
173	0
0	0
Demobilization-Labour
[Stage Direction]
Mr. 'SMITH (Calgary West):	Mr. Chairman, I must compliment the Minister of Labour on the labour which he has just so joyfully performed. The speed continued, and there were a great many figures. I was utterly unable to follow them because there were so many; and that is one of the subjects in which I did not excel at the time I was gathering a rather humble education. I am sure, though, that it must have been a great speech. I say that because of the old adage that two heads are usually better than one. In this particular case I noticed eight distinguished-looking gentlemen and one beautiful woman in the gallery in front of me and to my right, following the minister word for word and nodding with great satisfaction as he made each sixteenth pole as he turned over his pages. Two of them left a moment ago; they felt that their horse was going to stay the course; and I was glad to know they left after all the figures were finished, and he began that great peroration. With great respect may I again compliment the minister on his great oration.
I am utterly unable to follow the speech, I mean by way of reply, because apparently in that office they have only typewriters that can make nine copies. I am sure if there were ten the minister would have given me the tenth so that I could follow him carefully. However, in all seriousness, may I say this. I intend to devote myself-and without apology for taking up some of the time of the committee-to a discussion of our labour problem as I see it now. By "now", I mean in times of peace.
May I assure all hon. members that I -have no harsh criticism to offer to anyone. I may be flattering myself, but I intend at least to try, and may I say, honestly try, to make some contribution to what I regard as one of our greatest difficulties in this time of transition, which difficulty is not getting better but unfortunately seems to be getting somewhat worse.
I shall have a word or two to say about affairs at Windsor, but may I again give the committee the assurance that nothing that falls from my lips will have anything to do with disturbing those relations which the minister tells us are getting better at the present time.
I have had something to do with both sides of this picture; I mean acting for the capitalists-and may I say I like that word. There is nothing wrong with it; it is a good English word. I have acted for labour; and in spite of what some people think, I have done a little bit for it. I was born in Regina,

where the hon. gentleman who recently came from there and spoke the other night and who reached the boiling point comes from- you remember sir, he just boiled at something. Well, I find that in Regina the boiling point has been much lowered since I left there many years ago.
I thought I heard someone say something, but apparently I did not; I must have been wrong, and so I begin by endeavouring as best I can-I hope some hon. gentlemen are having a fine time talking to one another. I wish I could eavesdrop, but I cannot hear them. I am going to give a short history of what I believe to be the labour situation in this country. In doing so, may I pay a compliment to the hon. member for Spadina who, in my judgment, made the finest contribution to our debates on labour which has yet been heard in this house. I disagreed with only one sentence, namely, his final conclusion with respect to the appointment of a controller or administrator, and I shall deal with that later. I am anxious to say publicly, as I did privately, what I thought of that contribution which he made at that time.
There can be no consideration of this problem without keeping three things in mind. Let us not think, sir, that I am just repeating platitudes, because I am not. I do not put these things in order of importance; I do not try to. First, there is the public weal; second, a living and decent wage for workers, and third, a profit for the enterprise itself. These three things are interdependent. They are as the sides or the points of a triangle, and there can be no sane consideration of labour and capital problems without keeping those three simple things before us at all times.
Why have we union labour? Let us be honest about that. We have union labour because of the abuses of industry on unorganized labour. That is a simple statement of fact which no one can refute. Unions have grown. It is perfectly true that in that growth and in war years in some areas with very rapid growth things have happened in connection with union labour that neither you nor I, sir, are proud of, nor are the real union labour men proud of them. But things have happened in the political growth of our country of which none of us can be very proud. In short, it is a part of the growth of any democratic movement that rascals will come out somewhere in the picture. But the mere fact that there are some rascals does not for one moment condemn the system. These people can be eliminated, but the firm principle, the just principle, will live on in spite of incidents of that kind.

Demobilization-Labour
Up to now, what are the two great accomplishments of union labour? Where do they get their life-blood and through what channels does it flow? First is the right to strike and second is the inviolability of union funds to attack by actions in tort, as we lawyers say. In other words, they are not liable to damages. Our law says that; our courts have held that law to be sound. Remember that under our criminal code they are exempted from all charges of conspiracy and things of that kind. I want this committee and you, sir, with respect, thoroughly to understand that in anything I say from now on I do not depart one iota from those two accomplishments, which should never be disturbed, the right to strike and the inviolability of these funds in actions of tort.
These were far strides; they were long strides. Then what was our next development? We have a good many new words to-day. We have the word "check-off"; we have union security, closed shop, union shop and all that sort of thing. But let us never forget that the purpose of organization has always been the securing of a decent wage and decent working conditions. That is basic. It is at the bottom of all these other words, and all these other ideas simply grow, as an architect or a builder builds a building. But at the bottom is the desire of decent human beings for a -fair standard of living and not a mere existence, for some of the comforts that should go with life in a country such as the Dominion of Canada.
I am going to say a word or two, having said that, about what has come so much to the fore in connection with the disturbance at Windsor. There we have the question of union security and the word "check-off." 1 deal first with the word "check-off", because it is a harsh-sounding word, although really there is nothing in it at all. It is nothing but a payroll deduction for a given purpose. Payroll deductions are not new. You have them in compulsory savings; you have them in unemployment insurance; you have them in every union who employ their own doctor. There is no harm in the payroll deduction if that deduction be requested and signed by the individual who wants it. It is his money; why can he not send it where he wants to" Let us stop a lot of this raving over the harsh sound of a word which simply means the right of the individual to do with his own money as he wishes to. And that is all that the check-off is.
I now come to union security. What is that? Remember, we cannot use the term and just say, "There it is," and pin it down on that spot. That cannot be done. You
have it >in various ways, but it is largely a matter of degree. The last figures I could get from the United States show that by contract seventy-eight per cent of organized labour has union security-and remember again, by contract, by agreement with the employer. I go a tremendous way with the Minister of Labour. I have said in this house before, and I say it again, that I believe in union security. Let no one ever do anything to stop people from making their own agreements, whether we as theorists are frightened at words or frightened at the theory of union security. As I say, seventy-eight per cent of organized labour has it in the United States.
But when>
we begin to deal with things like that as matters of legislation, I want to make it very plain that we are talking about a horse of an entirely different colour. I intend-and perhaps some people may think I have considerable crust, if I may use that expression- to make a suggestion as to how far legislation might go, having regard to that particular point.
My point is this. Be your jurisdiction dominion or provincial, you cannot divorce union security from a whole labour code. There is just no sense in it. We had a motion in this house the other day. It disappeared, and I cannot remember the exact terminology which is used when we lose, sight of things. In any event, we have not heard of it since. I say, however, that you cannot take that thing by itself and say, "There, we give you that", because surely it is the principle of parliament, of all parliaments, that when legislative sanction is given to someone, responsibilities are expected from persons to whom that legislative sanction is given. By that I mean simply this. I know that no one can be objective in talking about this problem without stepping on the toes of some of his friends and, thank heaven, perhaps some of his enemies. But you cannot please both sides in this picture, and I intend to be as objective and as frank as I possibly can. And so I say this. I am suggesting that perhaps the time has come when this legislature, this parliament -provided that we are not going to divest ourselves quickly of our responsibilities and give them back to the provinces-may have some legislation or something of this order, that union security may be granted; but in doing that, I must make the comparison where we as a group of men in this house should apply to this dominion government to form ourselves into a corporation and get what we call letters patent. In those letters patent we must show our powers, the things we may do. We must do more. We must show our by-laws,
Demobilization-Labour
[Stage Direction]
the methods by which we operate. So I say this merely as a suggestion, but having given it some thought and having talked to a number of people'about it. I do not know why legislatures cannot set up some scheme of that kind where a union can voluntarily come, the same as they have voluntarily come for certification. They all said they would not do so; but they have accustomed themselves to that; there is no complaint about it, and they could come and say, "Yes; we want this code; we want a minimum wage; we want union security, and we are doing it on these terms"-because, let hon. members remember this, if by legislation we ever grant union security, then we want to grant the security of the individual against the unions. When a group of men get in charge of a great many men, who perhaps have neither the time nor the inclination to make minute examinations of their problems, we want to know that if some fellow kicks over the traces a little bit he will not lose his security, and his wife will not lose the livelihood of his job when he is put out of that union. We must go that far.
I will now say something about finances, and I do not want somebody to jump on me and) tell me that because the union did not vote for me and I object to their giving a dollar to my opponent, I am not interested in that kind of thing. But I do say this that if we have these people voluntarily coming-and remember it would have to be worked out by experts like the minister, and it could not apply to small shops; you do not need it in craft shops-it would be there for them if they cared to take advantage of it. Again I repeat that we cannot divorce it and put it on the shelf by itself. It must be in conjunction with other conditions, if I may use that expression, "as a part of a general labour code.	.
I am now going to get really bold with the minister and make another suggestion. My criticism-and I may say it is the criticism of my party, because I realize I am speaking for it at the present time-is exemplified to-day in this strike at Windsor. It is that under our legislation, be it provincial or dominion, we have no place to go, after we have had a board of conciliation. We are in the air. We are completely stopped, right there. These boards are usually tliree-men boards, although not necessarily so; why, the minister even called me, and sent me to Nanaimo a few years ago. We brought in a unanimous report-and accomplished exactly nothing. I remember it so very well.
When we are through that, we have no legislation, aside from the boards set up during the war; that is, the regional and dominion war labour boards. But I am really talk-

ing about things in time of peace. I object to a three-man board ever accomplishing anything. Let not the hon. member for Cape Breton South, learned man that he is, think for one moment that I am going to argue compulsory arbitration. I am not. I agreed with him the other night when he said it was the very negation of collective bargaining.
But what I am going to suggest is this, that after the conciliation board is through, and after both reports have been published in the newspapers, there should be another place to go. The reason I say that is this. I base it upon this broad principle, that no lock-out and no strike in the Dominion of Canada can last any appreciable length of time without considerable public support. I make that broad statement without fear of contradiction. Let us be practical.
What happens? We have a board of conciliation, or a regional board, or a war labour board, consisting of three men. We have two men giving a judgment over here, and one over there. They are not boards.. This is the judgment of one man, a man with specially interested counsel pulling on this arm, and another one pulling on that arm. In practice that is really what they are. Certainly the greatest reason for failure we know of is just this, that we publish two judgments -and I intend to call them that.
What happens? We publish two judgments. Two men say this, and the other fellow says that. It is in the newspapers, and I can walk along the street and buy your cheap newspapers and read about it. By the way those newspapers cost only three cents down here; and it took me a number of weeks to find out, because the vendors were not generous enough to tell me. However, I caught on in time.
But what I was going to say was this, that 'the minute we have that situation, what happens? Let us take a cross-section of this House of Commons-and in that connection I am going to refer to a very homely, but not a silly illustration. A week ago last Saturday I attended a football game in this town. The Ottawa Rough Riders were playing against a team from Toronto-
An hon. MEMBER:: The Argonauts.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Yes, the Toronto Argonauts. I hollered as hard as I could for the Rough Riders. Why? I don't like Ottawa. I didn't know any of the players. But they started nineteen points behind, and I was "for" them in everything they did. They were the under-dogs.
That psychology, Mr. Chairman, carries right through when you read a judgment and find that two men went this way and one

Demobilization-Labour
man that way. The ordinary fellow says, "Those two guys ganged up on him. I am for this guy." That is what happened.
What is the cure? Please do not think I am egotistical, because I am trying to be helpful. My cure is this-I do not wish to be jumped on too quickly, but when I give it I will try to explain and justify it-that there should be a voluntary appeal from any board of conciliation. To whom? I say it should be to a supreme court judge in any province.
I will now answer some of the criticisms. The first one will be this. It used to be said more frequently, but they are not saying it so plainly to-day, because they have learned something about this profession which some of us in the house at least try to honour. It is this, that the only successful lawyer in places where there are many people to-day is the kind of man who quickly learns a new business. You are in a milk investigation today, coal to-morrow, oil the next day, mining the next day, and so on. That is what this business of practising law has become-certainly in the larger centres-in this dominion of Canada. Then again those men are appointed for life. They can only be removed -"on petition", I think is the expression-by an address of both houses of parliament. I may have the wrong word, but the Minister of Justice will know what I mean,
In other words, they have nothing to gain; they have nothing to fear. Remember this, sir, that our civilization is based upon three things, and the judiciary is one of them. It is one of the big props. In good times and in bad times, in war time and in peace time, the judgments of our courts still command the respect; yes, even the admiration, of a very great majority of our people.
Now in these provinces-and I do not mean just one man-let us take four in Ontario, four in Quebec and two in the western provinces. I know that our judges out there are not overworked, although I believe some of them are down here. I am setting out a scheme which is not going to cost this country any money-


Mr. LOW:: And it will probably make you a judge.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Well, I am doing my best, don't you think?


An hon. MEMBER:: What a hope!


Arthur Leroy Smith: Someone says, "What a hope!" But hope springs eternal. I say seriously that I do not want any new system set up. Let us have no new' commission. In the name of everything that
is reasonable, let us get rid of 150 or so of them, without creating any more. Let us hit upon a ground level-not make a ground loop-so that we shall know where we stand.
What happens then? Well, we will say that I am conducting a law suit with my old friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Perhaps we are very sure that the other is wrong. As a matter of fact I usually think he is wrong, just because I see him sitting over there where he sits to-night. However, that is neither here nor there.
But, supposing we have a lawsuit. What does the ordinary man say? .What do your friends say to you? They say, "Well, Jim MacKinnon had his day in court, and he lost." Perhaps I did not give him a break when I said that; I should have reversed it. But everybody is satisfied that justice has been done-as no doubt it was done.
So I give you this, sir, with respect and great deference, but in my judgment with the assurance that the thing really will work. Let us apply it to the situations that we have today. There is no use in saying that the situation at Windsor is improving if we know that elsewhere in the country it is not improving. The hon. member for Cape Breton South told us about his miners in Nova Scotia, and I know a bit about the miners in another part of the country. I know there is unrest. I know the statement he made the other day, not that it was right, but whether it be right or wrong, that this contest at the Ford plant was regarded by labour-certainly it is regarded so by many who write to me from my own city'-as a threat by that company to break unionism. I am not suggesting that that is true, but I know that is what these men believe. That was the way the thing spread across the country. We cannot just go from one struggle to another. Let us find some broad basis, some reasonable basis. What will happen? I know you cannot make men work by law any more than you can make women sing. There are a lot of things you cannot do by law, but if a person refuses to proceed in a normal and legal manner you can place him in such a position in the public eye that he will lose sympathy, be he employer or be he union.
It seems to me that unless we adopt something of that kind we shall be just jumping from climax to climax, from trouble to trouble, and this great, broad show may come upon us. I hope with all my heart that this trouble at Windsor ends in agreement. I am glad they are trying to agree. I have been in communication with a great many people in this country and I know that if that thing goes wrong we shall not know where our labour
Demobilization-Labour

difficulties will end, and I say that in all seriousness. Until we find that the plan I suggest does not work I hope no one in this committee will say one word which will injure the possibility of its really working.
Now, broadly put, I say that I believe in collective bargaining, and by .collective bargaining I mean bargaining by a strong union. You cannot call if bargaining honestly if the employer has all the money. That just does not make sense. I believe in staying out of the legislative field just as far and as long as we can with respect to things contemplated and things which might be negotiated. We should not feel that we have failed until that conciliation body has had an opportunity of going there and giving one judgment in which the people of this country will believe. Someone may ask me if I believe in an appeal from that judgment. I would say yes, but only one, and that to the Supreme Court of Canada which as a rule delivers only one judgment. I would make it so that there would be only the one judgment at any time.
I close by saying that I know that some people on both sides of the house will not like what I have said. I never knew of legislation that pleased everybody, particularly where you are going to say, "for you, Mr. So-and-so, this is best". I have endeavoured on our behalf to make some contribution, although it may not be complete in detail-I know it is not-to the industrial peace of this country, without which there can be no decent standard of living. We have no greater task; we have no finer ambition and no greater goal could be achieved by the hon. members of this parliament.


Angus MacInnis: Mr. Chairman, I am sure
the committee is grateful to the Minister of Labour for his report of the operations of his department. So far in this appropriation we have been dealing with war departments whose appropriations have been less this year because of the ending of the war. I note that the appropriation for the Department of Labour is somewhat larger than it was last year. I am not complaining about that because I realize that the labour department will be equally as important in the years ahead of us as it has been during the war years.
It would be well if we were to admit at once that the Minister of Labour had a most difficult task during the war. He was dealing with human elements on both sides of production. On the one hand, he was dealing with employers who had the machines and the techniques of 1940 with a social outlook of 1840. On the other hand, he was dealing with

industrial workers who for the first time were being brought together in great numbers in industrial establishments where organization was not only possible but inevitable. He was dealing with a situation where both sides were inexperienced in the work of collective bargaining, and consequently his task was a very difficult one. I agree with the Minister of Labour and with the hon. member who has just taken his seat that if we afe to have progress, peace and prosperity in this country, the cooperation of labour and management and the government as representing the public is an absolute necessity. I will go with the hon. member who has just preceded me and tell the Minister of Labour, or whoever may be sitting in his place at any time while I am here, that he will have my cooperation.
The minister. said that he was opposed to regimentation. I imagine we are all opposed to regimentation; no one likes regimentation, but I am inclined to believe that organized labour and labour generally objected much more to the regimentation of the poverty they had to endure before the war than they did to the regimentation of national selective service which they accepted during the war. I know of a worse state than being frozen in your job; this is, to be frozen out of it. We must avoid, not only the regimentation that may come from official coercion, if you like, but equally the regimentation that comes from the poverty which occurs when 'mass unemployment takes place.
I noticed the minister's reference to P.C. 1003 and the criticism which that order in council has encountered. My attitude toward P.C. 1003 was that it was a step in the right direction but that it did not go far enough. It left out many things that should have been in it and possibly contained some things that were objectionable. But I think the minister is wrong when he says, if I understood him aright, that PjC. 1003 encouraged' the organization of trade unions. I do not think it did. What encouraged the formation of trade unions and what made trade unions inevitable and imperative was the war production that brought workers together and into relations with their employers. That is what addedi to the growth of the trade union movement in this country, and not P.C. 1003. It may have made the situation a little smoother, but whether or not P.C. 1003 was there, trade unionism in this country was bound to grow.


Humphrey Mitchell: I agree with my hon. friend.
Mr, MacINNIS: Then the minister dealt [DOT]with the wage control order. I think every member of this house agrees that the govern-

Demobilization-Labour
ment made a fair job of controlling prices during the war; we have said that time and time again. But what I have always contended1, and what I think is absolutely true, is that the burden of maintaining prices rested on the shoulders of the low-paid workers. I think that was also the opinion of the national war labour board which, following its inquiry, made recommendations to remedy that condition. I do not think the minister is on very strong ground when he compared conditions in this country with those in France, Belgium and Holland, because the conditions are not at all comparable and he is only making his own case worse by making such a comparison.
Mr. MITCHELL; Just go across to the United States.


Angus MacInnis: That is quite true. I think we made a better job of it than the United States.
Mr. MITCHELL; Or Mexico.


Angus MacInnis: Quite true. But then there is Great Britain, where the situation was much more difficult than here, and Australia, where the situation was equally difficult, and New Zealand. They all made a good job of it because we have learned something all around since the last war.
Mr. MITCHELL; We started the ball rolling.


Angus MacInnis: If the minister insists on taking credit for it, far be it for me to take it away from him.
The minister went on to refer to the international labour office and the resolution which was passed at its 1944 conference, that labour was not a commodity. But surely that must be in contradiction with the government's wage control order which controlled prices and wages ; it controlled wages because labour is a commodity and wages is the price of labour. The commodity nature of labour will not ibe changed by passing resolutions at I.L.O. conferences or anywhere else. Labour will continue to be a commodity so long as it is bought for a price;-wages. We shall not get away from that condition until labour receives its fair share of the nation's wealth because they are entitled to it as human beings. Labour then will come into its own. In saying this, I am not disparaging the work of the international labour office. I think it is doing a great work and I hope that it will continue to do so.
In the time that is left to me I am going to deal with a matter that is under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Labour, a matter over which I have felt and still feel great
concern because I consider that we did not deal with it as a democratic nation should have done. I refer to our treatment of persons of Japanese origin who were removed from the Pacific coast early in 1942. I am convinced that our treatment of those people, seventy-five per cent of whom, as the minister pointed out, are Canadians-Canadians, as much as you and I, Mr. Chairman-violated every democratic tradition and every Christian principle. In our dealing with this question there are some things which we should keep constantly before us.
First, our population of Japanese origin is here by our consent. They are in Canada; they came to Canada by virtue of agreements between successive Canadian governments and the Japanese government. That is, those who are Japanese nationals and those who are naturalized Japanese. The seventy-five per cent or more who were bom here are here because we allowed their parents or grandparents to come here. I think it is important to remember that.
The second thing we should remember is that the conditions under which they came into this country and under which they have resided here ever since indicated that we accepted them as permanent residents of this country. The granting of naturalization is an indication of that. Until they were removed from the Pacific coast defence zone in 1942 no question ever arose of returning them to the country of their ancestors. That question1 was never raised.
The minister mentioned the numbers. According to the 1941 census-the total and the categories have changed slightly since- persons of Japanese origin in Canada numbered 23,149, of whom 14,073 were born in Canada, 3,135 were naturalized, 5,890 were Japanese nationals, and persons of Japanese origin, citizens of countries other than Canada or Japan numbered fifty-one. Of the 23,000 here in 1941, 17,200 were Canadian citizens by either birth or naturalization.
The third point which we should keep in mind, but which we very often forget, is that these people were no more responsible for the military aggression of the Japanese government than any other citizen of Canada. Indeed they were not nearly as responsible as the government of this country which insisted on sending war materials to Japan while she was waging war on China.
The fourth point we should keep in mind is that, despite the way we treated them, despite the fact that we uprooted them from their homes; despite the fact that we denied them the rights enjoyed by every other citizen in the country, regardless of racial origin,

Demobilization-Labour
not one disloyal act has been committed by any Canadian-born Japanese, or, as far as I know, by any person of Japanese origin. Let me quote the Prime Minister, who, speaking in this house, on August 4, 1944, said this, as reported in Hansard, at page 5915:
Secondly, account should be taken of the fact that for the most part the people of Japanese race in the country have remained loyal and have refrained from acts of sabotage and of obstruction during the war. It is a fact that no person of Japanese race born in Canada has been charged with any act of sabotage or disloyalty during 'the years of war.
Yet they have been accused of disloyalty and we never gave them an opportunity to demonstrate their loyalty. They wanted to enlist in our armed services; we would not accept them. Why? For fear that when the war was over, they might make claims to citizenship rights which they should have in any event. After repeated requests by the British government for the services of Canadians of Japanese origin to be employed in the Pacific war area a small number of Canadian-born Japanese-some 150 or 160-were allowed to enlist. Some of these are now in India and other parts of the British empire. Some are training in Vancouver, where their fathers and mothers are not allowed to live. Remember, they have enlisted to protect this country. An even worse feature is that after these few were allowed to enlist, a complete censorship was imposed on that fact, and not a word of it came out through press until I brought up the matter here with a question on the order paper.
To demonstrate, that our treatment of this people has come to a point where it makes neither sense nor reason, let me point out that while the finest of our young men were fighting to destroy the concept of building a world order based on race hatred and the master race, we were dealing with this problem solely on the basis of race. Our citizens of Japanese origin were guilty of no crime, and none has been charged against them. Yet, because of the colour of their skin and the accident of their ancestry, they were uprooted from their homes; their property, the accumulation of the labours of a lifetime, was sold without their consent. When they'appealed to our courts of justice-I say, courts of "justice" -justice was refused them. Justice refused to operate; appeals made to the courts in 1943 still remain unanswered. We have heard during the recent weeks a great deal in this house about the rights of citizens and the freedom of the individual. The hon. member

for Lake Centre, speaking here the day before yesterday, said this, as reported in Hansard, at page 2264:
Why was recourse to the courts denied?
That is, to the Eldorado people.
Why was it necessary to deny any individual brought before the commission set up under the order in council the privilege of being represented by counsel? Why was it deemed necessary to deny any person .aggrieved the right of appeal to the courts? Why was it deemed necessary to deny the principle that was enunciated here this afternoon by the Right Hon. Clement Attlee, namely the rule of law, the great principle of this country and of the empire? I protest against this order in council that denies equality under the law, the right of recourse to law, the right to be represented by counsel and, finally, the right in 1945 not to be hailed by subpoena before a star chamber set up by the government for investigation, purposes wherein the individual enters and has no opportunity to defend himself against an investigator who has been invested with powers far and beyond those ever granted to any judge.
Why the necessity for denying any individual rights which have been the rights of freemen since the days of Magna Charta? I think of one paragraph in the Magna Charta which reads as follows:
"To no one will we sell, to no one will we refuse or delay right or justice."
Now, if that applies to this particular company, surely it applies to the 23,000 souls who have done nothing wrong and against whom no charge has been brought.


Mr. CASE:: Would the hon. member permit a question? Is he pleading that the Japanese be allowed to return to British Columbia and to Vancouver?


Angus MacInnis: No; I am not pleading for any such thing, but I am pleading that the Japanese in Canada be treated the same as every other Canadian is treated. That is all I am asking, and that is all they are entitled to. No man is entitled to more and no man should receive less. Let me tell my hon. friend something. The people who are making this problem more difficult than it is, the people who are making it impossible to settle the Japanese across this country, are the people who, because of race hatred and race prejudice, are keeping this situation constantly in a state of unsettlement by refusing to grant the rights of citizenship to the Japanese Canadians. Until we do give them citizenship rights, we shall be faced with the menace of their return to the Pacific coast, once the emergency of the war is over; and the responsibility will rest on those who refuse to make a reasonable settlement possible.
These people are treated as enemy aliens. A case was brought to my attention, a few days before I left home, of a German who

Demobilization-Labour
was a naturalized Canadian. His naturalization was revoked, and 'he told me that he would like to have his Canadian citizenship restored. I took the matter up with the Secretary of State and 'asked him for a report. He very kindly showed me the whole file on this man. Here was a man who was definitely proven to be a nazi agent. But he was free, and so far as I know he could go anywhere he liked in Canada. One man could move wherever he liked, although he was proven to be a nazi agent. Early in August I had a letter from a lawyer in Toronto asking me to try to do something to enable a Canadian of Japanese origin, a man born in British Columbia, to return home to one of the reallocation centres to see his father who was dying. The father sent for his son who was in Toronto. A son and a daughter were living there. This man could not travel without a police permit, although he was a Canadian born in Canada. He had committed no crime and no crime was charged against him; yet he could not go to see his dying father without a permit. He was working; his sister was not; so he gave his permit, to her. When the sister arrived at the home the father insisted on seeing the son. He was his only son, his first-born, and he wanted to see him before he died. I took the matter up with the commissioner in Vancouver, and although it was Saturday afternoon and the office closed, he immediately took steps to get in touch with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and instructed them to issue a permit for this man to travel. He got his permit, but before he reached his father's home his father had died. Can anyone tell me why that man should not be allowed to travel the same as you and I. I will tell you why. The Prime Minister mentioned it in his speech on August 4, 1944. He said this; as reported at page 5917 of Hansard:
We must not permit in Canada the hateful doctrine of racialism which is the basis of the nazi system everywhere.
The reason he could nob travel is that we . have dealt with this problem solely on the basis of race. May I point out here that despite the fine speech made by the Prime Minister on August 4, 1944, nothing has been done up to the present time to solve this problem. The problem cannot be solved until we restore the rights of citizenship to these people. That is a first condition. When he spoke earlier in the evening the Minister of Labour said that there was no coercion used in getting these people to sign the repatriation certificate. I deny that. Only the day before yesterday I was in the office of the Minister of Justice; I saw some of the notices issued); I saw the advertisements. The
advertisements said that refusal to move east might afterwards be taken as disloyalty and be used to ship them to Japan. Remember that when they were asked to move east, they were asked to move east as enemy aliens, without a single right of citizenship, without the right to buy property, without the right to move from one place to another without a police permit.


Humphrey Mitchell: Six thousand moved
east.


Angus MacInnis: Quite so.


Humphrey Mitchell: They did cooperate.


Angus MacInnis: That is all the more
reason for treating them differently. These people have shown all along that they wanted to cooperate.


Humphrey Mitchell: Six thousand cooperated and the rest did not.


Angus MacInnis: That is not the way to put it. Under the same conditions I am sure that the Minister of Labour himself would take the same standi as these people took. As a matter of fact, in his speech the Prime Minister said the refusal to accept the conditions which were imposed) upon them should not be taken as disloyalty, because those conditions were- not right. In making his statement last year, the Prime- Minister pointed out that our policy for dealing with this problem should be based on certain- fundamental principles. The first fundamental principle was that steps should be taken so that these people would not return again in large numbers to the Pacific coast. The concern in British Columbia was that this might happen. As I have already said, the danger still remains because of the way in which we have handled this situation.
The minister pointed) out to-night that
9,000	of these people are still in British Columbia, but if we had dealt fairly with them, given them the right to acquire property, to acquire social and economic rights in other parts of -the dominion, these 9,000 people would not now be in British Columbia.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: We should deal with them in the way in which, they dealt with the Canadians at Hong Kong. That is the way to treat them.


Angus MacInnis: Speaking in another debate in the house, someone said that we should not have made peace with the Japanese; but that we should have driven the rats into the sea. The Ottawa Journal dealt with that very well in an editorial. The editor said, that
Demobilization-Labour

there were big rats and little rats, and if we were going to drive the little rats into the sea, what was the punishment for the big ones?


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Drive them in, too.


Angus MacInnis: But these people in
British Columbia were not at Hong Kong, and neither were the Germans in Canada at Belsen. People who talk like that are talking without an understanding of what British freedom and British justice means.


Major James William Coldwell: Nor what Christianity
is.


Angus MacInnis: Nor Christianity.


Major James William Coldwell: These people wave the flag all the time too.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Which flag?


Major James William Coldwell: Yes, which flag?


Mr. FERGUSON:: The flag you fellows
have taken down. You forget that flag; that is your trouble.


Major James William Coldwell: We practise what we preach.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: And don't fight
for it.


Angus MacInnis: The second principle
enunciated by the Prime Minister was read by me a little while ago, namely, that no Japanese in Canada had been guilty of any sabotage or disloyal' act. The third fundamental principle was in regard to future immigration into this country. In 1936 I moved a resolution in this house proposing that we do not allow any people into this country to whom we do not extend the full rights of citizenship. That would have applied to the Japanese at that time. But every Liberal member and every Conservative member in the house on that occasion voted against that resolution and. consequently, voted for the continued immigration of Japanese into Canada. That resolution was defeated by 186 to 15. Only the C.C.F. group and some of the Social Credit group voted for it.


Howard Charles Green: It meant votes for the Japanese.


Angus MacInnis: It did not mean votes for the Japanese at all. I will read the resolution for my hon. friend's information. Nothing was mentioned in it about votes for Japanese.


Howard Charles Green: It was a double-barreled,
trick motion.


Angus MacInnis: It was not a double-Darreled trick motion, and when a bill was introduced by the then member for Comox-

Alberni to prohibit Japanese immigration in 1938, I voted for it. But it also was turned down. My resolution was as follows:
Whereas it is detrimental to the best interests of Canada that there should be in the country groups to whom, because of race or religious beliefs, we do not extend all the rights of citizenship;
Therefore be it resolved, that in the opinion of this house, the government should take the necessary measures to exclude from the country all persons belonging to those groups to whom we do not grant the full rights and privileges of citizenship.
That was the resolution, and the reason it was turned down was that we had good trade with Japan at that time when she -was making war on China.


Mr. REID:: That was not the reason why some of us voted against it.


Howard Charles Green: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member cannot make a statement of that kind. He has imputed motives to those who voted down the motion. It was not voted down because of trade but because it was a trick motion that could, be interpreted either way.


William Ross Macdonald: I think both hon. gentlemen have emphasized their points too strongly. Of course, the words "trick motion" are also out of order.


Angus MacInnis: The wording of the resolution is quite clear. It was well drafted; I drafted it myself. The Prime Minister, when he asked me to withdraw the motion, pointed out that it was a motion for exclusion.
When he spoke in the house on August 4, 1944, he said that he was stating government policy. I doubt very much if it was government policy, even though the Prime Minister stated it. When his followers came to British Columbia they repudiated that policy, although they had not repudiated it on the floor of parliament.


Thomas Reid: I never changed my views either in this house or out of it. Do not blame me [DOT] for that.


William Ross Macdonald: The hon. member's
time has expired.


Thomas Reid: Let him go on.


William Ross Macdonald: He may continue with the consent of the committee.


Angus MacInnis: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Because of your courtesy I shall be brief. I have two or three proposals to make which I believe are absolutely necessary. I think we shall have to deal with this problem on the basis laid down in united nations

Demobilization-Labour
charter which we adopted in this house a few days ago. At the very beginning of that charter we find the following:
We the people of the united nations, determined to safeguard succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind and to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained
And in the first article we find the following:
To maintain international peace and security, and to- that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of *acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity of the principles of justice and international law, the adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace; to achieve international cooperation in solving international problems 'of an economic, social, cultural or humanitarian character; and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion . . .
That, in my opinion, is only one way in which we can deal with this problem. Deal with it in accordance with the principles laid down in the united nations charter. I suggest, therefore, to the Minister of Labour and to the government that if they want the Canadian Japanese to settle in the other provinces, the first thing they will have to do is to approach the provinces and get the cancellation of the agreements made with them when these people were moved in. That is essential. It is essential because, if these people's rights as Canadian citizens in other parts of Canada are not guaranteed, we can never settle the problem.
The second thing we should do is to remove the restrictions that now prevent them from buying and leasing real property, so that they can buy property to assure their economic welfare, acquire social and economic roots, and they will have more reasons to remain where they have been settled. These are the things which I believe the government will have to do, and if it begins to do these things immediately, I am sure that this problem will be much more easily solved than we now think possible.


Mr. HERRIDGE:: I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Calgary West on the speech which he gave. I enjoyed it very much, and I thought he made a constructive contribution to the debate. In fact, I thought it was one of the most constructive speeches I had heard a gentleman of the legal profession make for some time. He was rather
underestimating the value of the conciliation boards to this country during the very difficult war period. I have had some experience during the last three or four years. I have had an opportunity of serving on three quite important boards, one of which dealt with a serious shipyard situation. From my experience on that board I learned a great deal, and I was amazed, when I came to deal with problems confronting men who came from different backgrounds, with different approaches to life and different outlooks, how much stability had been built into these unions in such a short time. I think those conciliation boards have performed a great service during the war years. I am of this opinion, from my experience, that until we have a national or general labour code, which incorporates labour's rights and labour's responsibilities, we are not going to settle industrial problems, as far as the workers in this country are concerned.
Representing a constituency in which thousands of Japanese have lived since their evacuation from the coastal areas, I wish to say a few words to-night on this important question. It is one which is of serious concern to many of my constituents. I represent a riding which holds a strong affection for the principles of democracy. Their views are not coloured by racial animosity, and they are a people who spring quickly to the defence of democratic principles.
In introducing this subject, I could not give a better background than to read the introduction to the first report made by the security commission to the Department of Labour. This introduction is written in excellent language, and is a good introduction to the subject. I read this from the introduction to the report submitted by the security commission:
The colourful pages of early Canadian history have ever been a recital of action and movement.
The settler, the family, the community; dissension and compromise; a continual readjustment of human lives and their relationships; the urge to seek new and virgin fields, all comprise a tale of natural growth and expansion- and inevitably a westward trek.
Since the linking of east and west by steel, the pattern of our lives has become more uniform and stabilized, our problems more similar -the great war, the boom days and subsequent depression were factors common to the whole country.
Canadian historians could no doubt reveal that, whilst this nationhood is in no small measure the result of the efforts of statesmen and industrial leaders, the ordinary citizen- has also been a contributory factor of considerable importance in the development of Canadian life as it is to-day, and it is significant that the
Demobilization-Labour

latter, many of whom still bear the mark of foreign birth or parentage, represent diverse
racial origins.
Canadian people as a whole may have been unmindful of the fact that scattered throughout the dominion were comparatively small groups of people which had not become completely assimiliated into their present environment. This, however, could not be said of the people of British Columbia, who have been constantly kept aware that within the confines of this province, with its wide untenanted areas, lived seven thousand Japanese who had been born in Canada, and sixteen thousand others who had immigrated to this country in the past fifty years.
The lure of this vast continent of plenty had caused most of them to leave their homeland for ever. In general, they were representative of the poorer class in Japan, therefore the most menial work in their new home offered them greater rewards and comforts than those to which they had hitherto been accustomed.^ They proved quick to familiarize themselves with the laws and customs of this country,_ and their apparent slowness to become assimiliated into community life has been, quite probably, due to the existing colour prejudice and the provincial denial of the right to vote. It has been inevitable that the denial of the franchise, and also the restrictions against their entry into certain professions, have of necessity driven them to concentrate their initiative and energy in those- channels of business available to them, and to which they were especially suited. At the outbreak of hostilities, the Japanese in British Columbia were chiefly employed in the fishing industry, boat building, cultivation of truck farms, berries and fruits, and in multifarious types of small businesses such as restaurants, boarding houses, dry-cleaning establishments, and small fruit and grocery stores.
By their industry and self-sacrifice, they had established their homes, families and businesses, seldom becoming public charges, and at all times trusting that some day, they, or at least their Canadian-born children, would have the full privileges of Canadian citizenship.
However, in December of 1941 these hopes were quickly shattered by the unprovoked action of their native countrymen in viciously attacking Pearl Harbor without warning, and this group of people numbering over 23,000 were immediately classified as "alien." Here were represented Japanese who still retained their natural loyalty to the land of their birth. Here also were the indifferent, interested only in their physical and material well-being; and -others, Canadian-born, torn between family ties and an appreciation of this country which they had come to consider their own. There were also others who were entirely uninfluenced by ties of parentage, real Canadians, possessing that spirit of independence which they cherished as their rightful heritage. This group of people of varied objectives, conflicting loyalties and diverse aspirations were now the victims of the cruel action of their race.
I have read that because it is the introduction to the first report of the British Columbia security commission, to the Department of Labour. Following Pearl Harbor, as we. know the government had to take action.

Internments took place, and some were placed in camps. An order for the disposal of Japanese fishing vessels was set up; there was a surrender of moving vehicles, cameras and-weapons, and their property was handed over to the custodian of alien property. A registration of all the Japanese took place, showing at that time 23,312 Japanese resident in British Columbia.
I should like to quote one further paragraph fiom the report where it deals with the creation of the British Columbia security commission. It states:
The government of Canada took no further definite action until public sentiment became inflamed and the members of parliament from this province became so vehement in their denunciation, and the press so vociferous in its expression of indignation that finally, faced with the necessity of establishing some security against possible attack from within as well as without, on March 4, 1942, the government of Canada-
-established the Japanese security commission.
In passing I wish to say this, that the members of that commission were: Austin C. Taylor, chairman; F. J. Mead, assistant commissioner and John Shirras, assistant commissioner. Those gentlemen performed an excellent service to the country and carried out their duties at a very difficult time. A realization that there was a possibility of imminent attack on the coast, and that there was tension throughout British Columbia made the duties of those gentlemen difficult. I give them credit for performing this service in an excellent manner and in most difficult circumstances.
In addition, I wish to associate with those names the names of assistant commissioner Colonel Hill and assistant commissioner Caulkin, both of whom have done excellent work in connection with the Japanese question. When the government was faced with the urgent problem of reallocation of the Japanese in the interior, many people in my constituency offered their cooperation. Officials and residents of municipalities and villages made a definite contribution to the war effort by taking such a democratic and public-spirited approach to the question during those years.
Some minor protests were voiced in my constituency, but they received little general support. Some people who formerly objected to the reallocation of Japanese in my riding are now staunch supporters of the rights of these people as Canadian citizens. There was considerable opposition in British Columbia and there is at the present time. As hon. members know, opposition has been
. NOVEMBER 21, 1945
Demobilization-Labour
voiced against the government's policy concerning the Japanese. A few members of parliament representing coastal constituencies have been persistent-and I should think, under the circumstances, somewhat inconsistent-in their opposition to that policy. Some public bodies in British Columbia have taken a similar stand, but even those bodies have had a vacillating policy. I am glad to say that many other public bodies and associations have taken a strong stand for the rights of these people. I find that the more the Canadian people- know about this situation, the more they understand these people and the circumstances; the more inclined to be tolerant they become and the more ready they are to give these people the justice that they deserve.
The policy of the government was outlined by the Prime Minister in his statement last year to the house. The Conservative party has no policy. The attorney general of British Columbia announced that during the last provincial election. Mr. Maitland said that the Conservative party had no policy in connection with the Japanese question. I imagine there are too many decent people who are members or supporters of the Conservative party who do not believe in racial discrimination. That is why the Conservative party has no policy with regard to the disposal of Japanese in British Columbia.
Public bodies have expressed their opinions on this matter, but I want to show how vacillating those opinions have been. I might say that in my own district the farmers' organizations have taken a strong -stand against this racial discrimination against the Japanese. The central farmers' institute of Kootenay West stood firm against racial discrimination. In June, 1943, a meeting of the eastern municipalities of British Columbia held in Kaslo, which I believe is the birthplace of the hon. member for Vancouver South, was opposed, without dissent, to the repatriation of persons of Japanese blood. In August, 1943, at a meeting of the eastern section of the municipalities of British Columbia held in Nelson, a resolution from Richmond, which is a Fraser Valley town, urging repatriation was turned down with no dissenting voice.
In September, 1943, the union of British Columbia municipalities meeting at Port Alberni passed a resolution in favour of repatriation after considerable discussion and with a strong minority vote. In September, 1944, the union of British Columbia municipalities, meeting at Nelson, turned down a similar resolution after debate by a vote of fifty-nine to twenty-eight. In July, 1945, the eastern section of municipalities of British 47696-151
Columbia, meeting at New Denver, turned down a similar resolution with not a single delegate voting for it. In September, 1945, the union of British Columbia municipalities, meeting at Victoria, passed a similar resolution in favour of repatriation with hardly any discussion.
The above shows that there is a strong sentiment against this policy of repatriation, as well as a sentiment in favour. The resolutions passed in favour of repatriation were passed after a great deal of debate and by narrow majorities. So far as my own constituency is concerned, in the winter of 1943, the Nelson citizens' rehabilitation committee, after a number of discussions, finally adopted a brief urging that Japanese-Cana-dians should be encouraged to disperse across Canada and that they should, upon due examination, be given full responsibilities as Canadian citizens and should also bear responsibilities, such as fighting in the armed forces, which they were ready to accept if they had the opportunity. Church and women's organizations and other groups, both in my constituency and throughout British Columbia, are taking a strong stand against this racial discrimination.
I have in my hand a copy of a letter which was circulated by what is known as the white Canada -research committee o-f Fort Langley, British Columbia. This is dated October 2, 1945. I am informed that the sponsors of this committee are the hon. member for New Westminster, the hon. member for Comox-Alberni, Mr. A. W. Neill, Mr. J. H. Bose, Major R. A. Payne, Henry L. Edmonds, D. F. Mackay of the native sons of Canada, with Charles E. Hope as honorary secretary. I do not know what is meant by white Canada research committee. After hon. members have heard the contents of this letter, I think they will agree that there is no -research connected with it. This letter was forwarded to all the farmers' institutes in British Columbia in envelopes provided by the superintendent of the farmers' institute. I do not say that he had knowledge of it, but the fact is that the province of British Columbia supplies stationery to the farmers' institutes and this letter was circulated in those envelopes. The letter reads:
Our committee has been urged to get up -a province-wide petition asking the government to repatriate all people of Japanese ancestry now in Canada.
While we are primarily responsible for getting up the enclosed petition, it was thought better to put it out under the name of the Japanese "repatriation committee," as the name "white Canada" brings up the Chinese and

Demobilization-Labour

Hindoo questions which might he somewhat controversial, whereas the Japanese question is a problem to itself.
I am enclosing two copies of this petition, also some releases covering different angles of the question. The farmers' institute at its last annual meeting of the advisory board passed some very strong resolutions on the subject- '
That is quite correct; that was at the meeting of the advisory board at Victoria, and1 the farmers' institute of my constituency opposed the resolution.

and we have received a great deal of support from many members, and Doctor Munro, deputy minister of agriculture-
I may say that Doctor Mun-ro is not a doctor of agriculture. He received his doctorate degree as a result of a thesis on the Indians of the Pacific coast. Personally it does not seem right to me that a gentleman who wrote a thesis concerning a native race should assist in the promulgation of this type of doctrine. The letter continues:

and secretary of the advisory board, is also giving us his strong support. Can I ask you to take an active interest in this petition and get signatures in your locality?
Anybody, both men and women, can sign it, whether they are farming or not (storekeepers, railwaymen, et cetera) and if you have a women's institute in your district they also should be asked to get signatures, as this is a matter of the most vital importance to everybody in this province, and indeed to all Canada.
There have been some similar petitions circulated, but there is no reason why all these petitions should not be signed by the same people but I should caution you that no one should sign more than one copy of the same petition, and no one under the age of fourteen should be asked to sign; above that age I think they should, as in two or three years this Japanese question will be vital to them also.
I might just say in passing that these are the very same people who raised such a strong objection to anyone being allowed to vote at the age of eighteen years. The letter continues:
If you are not able to handle this yourself, could you get two or three of your neighbours to handle it, taking a day or two each. Time is important and we should have all the petitions ready for presntation to parliament within the next month or two.
I also enclose a subscription list which was got out at the suggestion of the native sons' organization at New Westminster, and successfully circulated there. If anyone in your locality cares to subscribe anything, bis contribution will be welcomed, no matter how small. Perhaps your institute would like to help. The total cost will be about $800, no salaries of any kind are being paid, but printing, stamps and stenography cost money. I want, however, to strongly emphasize that the signatures to the petition are the important thing, subscriptions to the cost are quite secondary.

Mr. Austin Harris of Steveston is kindly helping to circulate these petitions and correspondence in connection with them should be directed to him; he will also send you further copies of the petition on request.
Hoping for your wholehearted cooperation, I am,
Yours faithfully,
Charles E. Hope, honorary secretary,
per Austin Harris.
I realize fully the difficulties the government has encountered1 in connection with this question. Considering the time of war and the outlook of the people in general, I believe that on the whole the government policy has been reasonably fair and reasonably decent. It is only fair to say that, because this whole movement of people no doubt has been carried out under great difficulties. I know something about it, because I had something to do with the commissioners. Thousands of these people lived in my district; I moved among them a great deal and tried to get to know them and to know the facts. Undoubtedly injustices have been done. Mistakes have been made by officials, and no doubt that was inevitable in time of war and stress, but every effort should be made to rectify them.
I wish to make a few criticisms of government policy. The government made a great mistake in not enlisting Japanese men of military age. If we had followed the policy pursued in the United States, a satisfactory solution of this problem would be much less difficult in the days to come. After the statement of the Prime Minister, Canadian-born citizens of Japanese racial origin were enlisted in the Canadian army. The public are largely unaware of the fact that hundreds of them enlisted and that every one was a general service man.
With regard to the sale of assets, , the Japanese property at the coast was handed over to the custodian of enemy property on the definite understanding that it would be held in trust for them. Instead, it has been sold without the permission of the owners, and very often at ridiculous prices. The Japanese war veterans who received a grant of lands after the last war have now had it taken from them. Goods of real value were sold without the owner's knowledge, while, in some cases, articles of only sentimental value have been returned to their owners. Things for which there was no market have in many eases been destroyed. Test cases were brought before the exchequer court to determine the legality of the government's action in selling their property. The court sat in June, 1944; but as yet, November, 1945, no decision has been handed down -by Mr. Justice Thorson.

Supply-External Affairs
In the meantime, although the matter is before the courts, the sale of property has been pressed. Very few of these people still retain very much of what they possessed at the coast, and' the proceeds of the sales have been used to support the owners so that now very few have anything left at all. From inquiries I have made-and I am not one to make rash statements in a matter of this kind-I believe that a grave injustice has been done to thousands of Japanese people. Their property is being sold at ridiculous prices on what the labour department reports is a seller's market.


Humphrey Mitchell: I might inform my hon. friend that the labour department has nothing to do with the sale of the property.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I quite appreciate that fact.	[DOT]
I should now like to say a word on the repatriation policy. In April a detachment of the Royal Canadian Mounted1 Police with selective service placement officers came to all the larger Japanese settlements in British Columbia offering them this alternative: You may choose to go to Japan after the war with your way paid and all your assets, or you may choose to remain in Canada; but, if you choose Canada, you must move east of the Rockies, or it will be a black mark against you when the loyalty commission comes around. This commission to determine the loyalty to Canada of persons of Japanese origin was promised by the Prime Minister in August, 1944, but as yet is not in existence.
In the proclamation announcing the choice before all people of Japanese origin, citizens and aliens alike, it was made to appear that to choose Japan would be far more profitable than to choose Canada. A very large majority chose "return to Japan". But when their reasons and intentions are looked into it does not appear that many really desire to go there. Although Japanese nationals were given to understand that if they chose Canada they would have to go east immediately, now when they try to go they find it is almost impossible to get a permit. Some nationals, it is true, have been able to get a permit and go, but they are definitely exceptions. The fact that these men and women are nationals rather than Canadian citizens in a great many cases does not reflect upon them. In many cases it is due to one of three reasons: (1) the vagaries of our naturalization laws; (2) lawyers who were charged with putting through their clients' applications for naturalization failed to do so; (3) naturalizations which have taken place since 1922 are not accepted as valid. The result of all this has been to create a great ferment in the minds not only of the 47696-151i
people of Japanese origin but of many occidentals in Canada as well. Business men, women's institutes, women's auxiliaries and women's missionary societies up and down the valley as well as missionaries of the United and Anglican churches, have wired or written the Prime Minister, the Minister of Labour, and leading church authorities. At present an appeal direct to the throne is being considered. So far the results seem to be nil.
Without a doubt the present situation is, in my opinion, absolutely opposed to the principles which Canada is professing to support, in the united nations as outlined in the preamble to the charter. It is also opposed to the words of the Prime Minister of this country in 1944, when he stated that racial discrimination will not be allowed to gain a foothold in this country. The root of the whole trouble appears to be in the delay of the government in admitting the rights and duties of Canadian citizens. If the government would make up its mind as to what Canadian citizenship means, the whole situation would be rapidly simplified. People of Japanese origin in this country know that in the panic days of Pearl Harbor it was inevitable that some injustices should take place. They are very fair in that respect. I know, because I have spoken to hundreds of them, but if they are given a square deal any sense of injury and personal injustice will, I am sure, rapidly fade away.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am sorry to interrupt my hon. friend, but would he mind adjourning the debate because I am going to ask the permission of the house to go into supply before eleven o'clock, if that will not disturb the sequence of his argument.
On motion of Mr. Herridge the debate was adjourned.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I should like to call
three items in the Prime Minister's department, under three heads, and ask that the items stand.


Major James William Coldwell: This is a new way of doing it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: A quicker way.


DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
89. Departmental administration, $526,085.
Item stands.
Elections-Irregularities
[Stage Direction]
238.	Salaries of staff and cost of living bonus and other pay list items, $50,880.
Item stands.
[Stage Direction]
239.	General administration, $89,777.
Item stands.
DEPARTMENT OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE 318. Departmental administration, $99,050. Item stands.
DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND COMMERCE S30. Departmental administration, $167,000. Item stands.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie the house adjourned at 10.55 p.m.
Thursday, November 22, 1945.