Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) :: I am sure the house will wish to have as part of the permanent records of its proceedings the historic address which was delivered in this chamber this morning by Madame Chiang Kai-shek. I have spoken to my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon), and he has kindly consented to second a motion to this end. I therefore move, seconded by Mr. Graydon:
That the address of Madame Chiang Kai-shek, delivered before the members of the Senate and of the House of Commons of Canada in the chamber of the House of Commons this morning, and the record of the morning's proceedings, be included in the House of Commons Debates and form part of the records of this parliament.


Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: Could not the several addresses be included in the record? I think for example the address of the Prime Minister and particularly the addresses of their honours the Speakers of both houses, should be included.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I thought "the record of the morning's proceedings" would be broad enough to include all that my hon. friend had in mind.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. W. A. FRASER (Northumberland, Ont.) presented the third report of the standing committee on public accounts, and moved that the report be concurred in.
Hon. R. B. HANSON (York-Sunbuiy):: I have no objection to this motion, but I should like to point out to hon. members that if this report is concurred in it establishes a precedent, and there can be no objection raised if other contracts are investigated
Questions

under similar circumstances. If the contract referred to in this report is investigated, then we may claim the right to have other contracts investigated.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: It means that the committee has the right to ask the house for permission. The house is free to take any action it chooses.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I make tne observation with a view to notifying hon. members that if this report is concurred in, then hon. members are free to ask that other contracts-with the approval of the house, if you wish-shall be investigated.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is for the committee to decide.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	How many pounds of sugar have been used by commercial firms in each of the last five years for, (a) making of soft drinks; (b) making of wine; (c) making of candy?
2.	How many pounds of sugar have been used by housewives for canning purposes in each of the last five years?
3.	What is the estimated quantity of sugar to be used in 1943 by commercial firms for,
(a)	making of soft drinks; (b) making of wine; (c) making of candy?
4.	What is the estimated quantity of sugar to be used in 1943 by housewives for canning purposes?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	The wartime prices and trade board has gathered information respecting the amount of sugar used by commercial firms since 1941. Prior to that year estimates were made by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics but these
are not	on a comparable basis.		
(a)	(b)	(c)Soft Drinks	Wine	Candyrefined	raw	refinedsugar	sugar	sugar(lbs.)	(lbs.)	(lbs.)1941...	91,724,610	12,962,988	65,489,8361942...	73,075,217	12,077,275	51,222,345
The consumption of sugar by industrial users has been restricted since July 1, 1942, the general quota for manufacturers of soft drinks and candy being not more than 70 per cent of the quantity used in the corresponding quarter of 1941, although this quota is subject to adjustment at the discretion of the administrator in case of hardship. Allocation for wine making is on a somewhat different basis, because usage in this industry relates to the crop year rather than to the calendar year. Of the total of 12,077,275 lbs. of sugar used in 1942 5,368,552 lbs. were used in connection with the final processing of the
1941	grapes. The allocation of sugar for the
1942	crop was based on somewhat less than 70 per cent of the average grape tonnage of the three preceding crops used in the making of wine.
2.	No statistics are available respecting the amount of sugar used by housewives for canning purposes during the years 1938-41. During 1942 housewives applied for and received
106,000,000 lbs. for home canning, which, in view of restricted supplies of commercially canned fruits and jams, is probably the largest quantity of sugar ever used for this purpose.
3.	(a) 66,000.000 lbs.
(b)	9,100,000 "
(c)	48,000,000 "
4.	100,000,000 lbs.


TRUCKS DELIVERING SOFT DRINKS
Mr. NICHOLSON:: How many trucks in Canada delivering soft drinks exclusively have been permitted to operate beyond the thirty-five-mile limit?


Mr. ABBOTT:: The total number "of trucks in Canada, used for delivering soft drinks exclusively, for which permits to operate beyond the 35 road mile limit prescribed in section 3 of administrator's order No. A-314 of the wartime prices and trade board were outstanding and current on 3rd June 1943 is 222.


POST OFFICES WITH REVENUES UNDER $25
Mr. MULOCK:: Revenue		Revenue from
Nova Scotia	under 810.00 . 6	$10.00 to $25.00 74New Brunswick	. 3	39Prince Edward Island..	. 	1Quebec 	. 7	46Ontario	. 5	29Manitoba	. 	11Saskatchewan 	. 3	37Alberta 	. 	22British Columbia	. 	8North West Territories.	. 1	3Yukon 	. -	2Total	. 25	272


FARM LOAN BOARD-REPAYMENTS BY FARMERS
Mr. FONTAINE:: What were the number and amounts of the repayments made by farmers, in each province, who obtained loans from the Canadian farm loan board, during the years 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941, and 1942?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Statement by provinces of the total number of repayments together with amount of repayments received on account of principal and interest of farm loan mortgages for the fical years ended March 31st as shown hereunder:
Fiscal year	Repayments	
ended March 31st	Number	Amount
British Columbia-		
1938 	1890	$ 166,6711939 	1820	154,3761940 	1984	178,0181941 	2237	207,5101942 	2435	211,3231943 	2383	282,730Alberta-	1938 	3411	522,0991939 	4015	601,3901940 	4953	632,9351941 	6138	713,3171942 	6914	862,6741943 	7438	965,126Saskatchewan-[DOT]	1938 	1740	209,3051939 	2472	339,0011940 	4272	764,1131941 	4921	658,8601942 	6200	809,3991943 	7170	870,034Manitoba-	1938 	2177	464,3931939 	2291	390,1301940 	2887	456,4051941 	3594	451,1401942 	5004	643,1951943 	4513	661,813Ontario-	1938 	1928	182,3881939 	2718	264,8131940 	3519	351,4411941 	4122	465,9501942 	4668	571,8551943 	4550	714,439Quebec-	1938 	8832	800,1471939 	9135	1,012,9981940 	9582	1,033.8951941 	10455	1,087,5421942 	10225	1,165,7551943 	9509	1,155,314New Brunswick-	1938 	1575	73,7551939 	1675	75,9901940 	1800	83,8081941 	1755	81,9961942 	2083	107,2541943 	1782	114,138Nova Scotia-	1938 	1182	69,1141939 	1470	88,4451940 	1751	90,5831941 	2223	104,4781942 	2641	127,9481943 	2769	163,230Prince Edward Islandi-	193S 	665	35,2S51939 	736	43,5441940 	943	51,1111941 	1081	67,99S1942 	1492	81,4851943 	1715	123,308


SUGAR CONSUMPTION
Mr. PURDY:: 1.	What was the approximate quantity of sugar consumed in Canada during the calendar year 1942?
2.	What percentage of this amount was, (a) produced in Canada; (b) imported?


Mr. ABBOTT:: 1.	898,821,003 pounds.
2.	(a) 25-5 per cent, (b) 74-5 per cent. The percentage of beet sugar distributed in Canada in 1942 considerably exceeded the production due to the distribution of a substantial carry over from the previous year. The average yearly production of beet sugar would not exceed approximately 20 per cent of the total annual consumption.


SELECTIVE SERVICE-PRIORITY LIST OF FIRMS OR INDUSTRIES
Mr. MacNICOL:: 1.	Is there a priority list or classification of industries or firms for the guidance of national selective service in placing workers?
/
Questions

2.	If so, who prepared this list?
3.	If a committee, who were the members of the committee?
4.	Is priority given one branch of non-war industry over another?
5.	Were representatives of various industries consulted?
6.	What is the order of priority?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	Yes.
2.	The list was prepared by national selective service, after consultation with the wartime prices and trade board and the Department of Munitions and Supply.
3.	The labour priorities schedule is continually being reviewed and revised by an informal interdepartmental committee of representatives of the wartime prices and trade board, the Department of Munitions and Supply and national selective service. The committee is presently comprised of the following persons: Sheldon Ross (Chairman),, Acting Chief, priorities division, national selective service. T. H. Robinson, Assistant Director, national selective service. J. G. Togo, associate coordinator of controls and labour liaison officer, Department of Munitions and Supply. R. G. Barclay, assistant director, employment service and unemployment insurance branch, Department of Labour. H. R. Kemp, economic adviser. Economic Research Branch, Wartime Prices and Trade Board. G. G. E. Raley, director of general supplies, supply division, wartime prices and trade board.
4.	Yes.
5.	No.
6.	The detailed order of priority is confidential and is continually changing as the war production programme requirements vary. Generally speaking, the highest priority is assigned to industries, activities or establishments primarily and directly engaged in the production of combat materials and implements of war. This group is followed by other industries considered to be highly essential to the promotion and support of war production, to the supply of the armed forces, and to the maintenance of civilian economy. Next in order of priority are those industries which are considered important to civilian life, contributory to war production but not vital to the war effort. The lowest priority group are those for which no labour priority is considered to be justified under present circumstances.
fMr. MacNicol.]


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN
Mr. SHAW:: 1.	How many rural mail carriers have been appointed since January 1, 1942?
2.	How many such appointments were made,
(a)	by the mere renewal of existing contracts;
(b)	following the acceptance of competitive bids; (c) in any other manner?
3.	How many contracts granted under 2 (c), guaranteed payments in excess of two hundred dollars per annum?
4.	How many contracts were renewed at a higher rate of payment than that guaranteed in the original contract?
5.	What steps are taken to ascertain the probability of any individual, who tenders a bid for rural mail delivery, being able to render essential service for the amount of his bid?
6.	What are the arrangements with respect to any rural mail carrier who requests leave of absence to enlist in the armed forces?


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. LACOMBE:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, correspondence, memoranda, evidence, reports and otiler documents in the possession of the Department of Justice, concerning the appeal of Mr. Camillien Houde, heard on the 28th May, 1943, by an advisory board at Fredericton.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This motion was called on Monday last, when the hon. member was not in his seat. At the time the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent) requested that the motion be allowed to stand until the hon. member was here. To-day it happens that the Minister of Justice is necessarily absent from the house, and I would therefore ask the hon. member to allow the motion to stand until the Minister of Justice is present. He wishes to speak to the motion.


Liguori Lacombe: I understand there is
good reason for the minister's absence, and I would ask that the motion stand.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Stands.


NATIONAL FINANCE COMMITTEE MEETINGS
Mr. DORION:: For a copy of the minutes and report of the meetings of the national finance committee, which took place in Ottawa on December 9, 1936, and the following days, under the chairmanship of the Minister of Finance.


Mr. ILSLEY:: Mr. Speaker, the minutes of the meetings of the national finance committee which took place in Ottawa on December 9, 1936, and the following days, under

National Finance Committee
the chairmanship of the Minister of Finance were understood to be for the guidance and information of the members of the committee only, and not to be made public.
I have here the first volume of the minutes, and I would quote a few lines from it to bear out my statement:
Hon. Mr. Duplessis: This is a family gathering. We should keep our meetings closed, unless 'he committee decides otherwise.
Hon. Mr. Dunning:	We cannot of course
prevent the press from stating what they want to state. The object of having a stenographic report is solely for the convenience of members of this committee, after they return home. It cannot, of course, be completely typed while each meeting is on.
The procedure and the rule agreed on at that meeting was the same as that agreed on at other meetings, several of which were held, between the Minister of Finance and the provincial treasurers. On no occasion, so far as I can ascertain or recollect, were the minutes regarded as anything other than a record for the convenience of the persons who attended the conference. Indeed it was agreed at the meetings that they were not to be made public, but that press statements were to be given out following each meeting. Under those conditions I must take exception to the production of minutes on this motion. If the hon. member would like to have the press statements, which I presume are not adequate for his purposes, there would be no objection to trying to get them together and producing them. But I must take the position, in view of the arrangement with the provinces, thoroughly understood and agreed upon, that the minutes themselves are not producible.


Mr. GRAYDON:: I would point out to the Minister of Finance that having quoted from a public document such as this-


James Lorimer Ilsley: It is not a public document.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Oh, yes.


Gordon Graydon: Just a minute; I have not finished.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is official.


Gordon Graydon: In any event it is an official document, and in my opinion comes within the rule which states that when any part of a document such as this has been quoted from the whole document must be tabled. Whatever grounds the minister had to sustain his objection are, I suggest, now swept from under him. I think the minister must now table the document.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Surely my hon. friend is raising a point in the nature of a technicality.


Gordon Graydon: The rules cannot be interpreted as technicalities.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It must be obvious that in the conduct of public business unless some documents may be regarded as confidential by the ministry it would not be possible on many occasions to have brought out the full information the government may wish to secure. Many statements are made in much greater detail by those giving information when it is known that their statements will be protected, or where it is certain-or even uncertain-that the documents themselves containing these statements may not be called for. I know what the rules are, and my hon. friend, does too. But in this instance I submit it is quite clear, from the minister's statement, that the document should not be tabled, and I hope my hon. friend will not press the objection he has raised, one which I think really is more in the nature of a technical objection.


Gordon Graydon: I wish to thank the Prime Minister at least for having confirmed my position with respect to the rules of the house. I should not like him to take the position that by urging that the rules of the house be followed one is raising an undue technicality. As I see it, the rules of the house can scarcely be placed in that category. The Prime Minister also implied that the information furnished would contain what the members of the committee may have said. My reading of the suggested order is that it calls for a copy of the minutes and report of the meetings of the national finance committee. I submit that is a long way from tabling the transcript of evidence showing what had actually happened. This asks for minutes, and I think they come within an entirely different category.
I still urge that the Minister of Finance might have been on safer ground if he had used a different objection. May I add that on one or two other occasions in the house the government has offered similar grounds for refusing to produce reports. Perhaps on those occasions the grounds were not quite as poor as those we have heard to-day. Nevertheless I say the house and the public are entitled to the fullest information respecting matters of this kind. Surely there cannot be anything extremely confidential in national war savings committee minutes. That committee deals with a matter of major importance, namely the financing of part of Canada's war commitments. With due deference for the Prime Minister's position, I hope he will not press the technicality on that.


James Lorimer Ilsley: If I have inadvertently
stumbled into an obligation to produce this, I

Motions for Papers

would submit that the only part that I am now bound to produce is the preliminary statement of the finance minister and the treasurers of the provinces, because at the moment the notes taken of the conference and the statements regarding the findings would not be part of the two documents.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is
quibbling.


Mr. COLD WELL:: 
Frédéric Dorion: Mr. Speaker, I should like to have this motion stand, because I have not been able to catch what has been said in the discussion that has taken place. We are away down in this corner and I did not hear the statement of the minister; therefore I ask that the motion stand until I have had an opportunity to read the statement.


James Lorimer Ilsley: To complete the record, I wish to state that in my judgment it is not in the public interest to produce these.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is
hoisting yourself with your own bootstraps.
Motion stands.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE COMMISSION- PREMISES OFFERED BY ALEX HOULE, NICOLET, QUE.
Mr. DUBOIS:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, memoranda and other documents exchanged, since February 24, 1943, between the superintendent of the unemployment insurance commission, Nicolet-Yamaska, and the Department of Labour, regarding the premises offered by Mr. Alex Houle, of Nieolet.


INTERPRETATION OF P.C. 6072
Mr. KNOWLES:: For a copy of order in council P.C. 6702, dated August 26, 1941, together with a copy of the interpretation of said order in council made by treasury board on October 23, 1941; also for a copy of any memoranda or statements explaining the aforesaid interpretation.


SELECTIVE SERVICE-FREEZING WORKERS TO THEIR JOBS
Stanley Howard Knowles: For a copy of all orders in council, also any regulations, directives or memoranda relating to or setting out the powers of national selective service officers in the matter of freezing workers to their jobs; also for a copy of any special regulations, directives or memoranda in the aforesaid matter issued to the officials of national selective service at Winnipeg.


OLD AGE PENSIONS-SASKATCHEWAN
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the Saskatchewan provincial government and the federal government since January 1, 1943, regarding increasing old age pensions in the province of Saskatchewan.


Thomas Vien: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Thomas Vien: Carried.


Richard Burpee Hanson: On previous occasions the government has taken the stand that communications between the provincial governments and this government are privileged, but this motion has passed to-day without any opposition from the government ranks. Where are we now?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend can rest assured that there will be communication with the provincial government before the documents are tabled.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is an
order of the house now.


TRANSATLANTIC AIR SERVICE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to inform the house regarding the establishment of a transatlantic air service. Arrangements have been completed for the immediate establishment of a Canadian government war-time transatlantic air service to carry mail to and from the Canadian armed forces in the British isles and to transport members of the Canadian armed forces and of Canadian government departments and technicians engaged in the production of war materials. The new war service is not a commercial or a permanent one. It will carry no fare-paying passengers. Space on the aircraft from Canada will be

Labour Conditions-War Workers
allocated by the deputy minister of transport in Ottawa; space on aircraft westward by the Canadian high commissioner in London.
The growing strength of the Canadian armed forces overseas and their increasing activities have made it necessary to establish this quick and effective means of communication with the United Kingdom for men and materials. The need for a speedy and regular troops air mail service is particularly pressing. Over a quarter of a million members of the Canadian armed forces are now in the United Kingdom. During the past year, due to lack of space on aircraft, they have unfortunately not been receiving mail regularly and quickly. It is expected that the initial flight of the new service will occur early in July.


Gordon Graydon: I concur in what the
minister has said with respect to the difficulty of dealing with air mail for those in the armed forces overseas. Does the minister contemplate that this service will take care of all air mail traffic for the forces overseas?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is intended that the service will take care of all air mail for the armed services, as well as carrying official passengers who may be travelling on government business. It may not be able to do so immediately, but planes will be added until the entire burden can be carried.
[Later]:


Clarence Decatur Howe: May I qualify the reply I gave to the hon. leader of the opposition. I said that all mail would be taken care of, but what I intended to say was that all airgraph mail and all armed forces letters will be taken care of. It is not believed that we can at any time take care of parcels.


Gordon Graydon: It was just letters I was referring to.


LABOUR CONDITIONS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. K. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Labour if he is able to make a statement with regard to recreational facilities for war workers. I sent him a note on Monday and the minister said he would make the statement to-day.


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: I should like to indicate the general direction in which we are moving in
connection with this matter. We shall be in touch with the provincial governments almost immediately asking for their cooperation in promoting recreational facilities for war workers on a shareable cost basis. The provinces, where the need is urgent will be first approached, but all provinces will be offered federal cooperation. I do not think I should go any further at the moment until details have been worked out with the provinces.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: How soon will that be?


Humphrey Mitchell: Immediately.


FARM MACHINERY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. G. DIEFENBAKER (Lake Centre):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National War Services having to do with the present shortage of farm machinery. A campaign is under way in the United States to collect usable farm machinery not in use and to assemble it under government supervision. It is then distributed amongst the farmers in need of it. Has consideration been given to a similar campaign in Canada? I realize that the quota on farm machinery has been increased but at the same time there will still be a shortage and it could be met in this way.
Hon. L. R. LaFLECHE (Minister of National War Services): Mr. Speaker, I have not heard anything about the subject mentioned by the hon. member, and I am not quite certain that it would properly come under National War Services, but I shall look into the matter immediately.



MOBILIZATION ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Richard Burpee Hanson: May I ask the Minister of National War Services whether a change has recently been made in the regulations under the mobilization act regarding the definition of students, or is that in process of change? Just what is the present status? Perhaps the question should be directed to the Minister of Labour. If he cannot answer offhand perhaps he will be good enough to answer to-morrow.


Humphrey Mitchell: I shall be glad to look into it and give an answer to-morrow.
Dairying Industry



DAIRYING INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mr. Speaker, last week the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance stated that he would make a statement this week in regard to whey butter.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I hope to be able to make a statement within the next day or two.



THE COMMUNIST PARTY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:	[DOT]
Liguori Lacombe: Mr. Speaker, I
wish to direct a question to the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent) or, in his absence, to his parliamentary assistant (Mr. Jean).
Even though the communist party has been banned by the Minister of Justice, has the minister authorized or will he permit the holding of a national convention by that party on August 21 and 22 next?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The question will stand as notice.



NORTHWEST FIELD FORCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: I do not wish to delay the proceedings more than one minute or two, but I have had a request from several members on all sides of the house that fifteen or twenty minutes be allotted some day to the discussion of a pension or some form of assistance to the members of the Northwest field force, many of whom are in very bad circumstances.
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health): Mr. Speaker, item 239 of the estimates deals with pensions to the men of the Northwest rebellion. I think that will be the appropriate occasion to discuss this matter further.



GALLUP POLL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the ministry a question about this mischievous Gallup poll which is

causing a great deal of trouble. Who are the voters in the Gallup poll? Do any members of the House of Commons vote in these polls? They are causing a great deal of dissension and disunity in wartime in this country. I would like to know whether the defence of Canada regulations can be applied to them. Where is the censor? Canada is not going to be talked out of the British empire; Canada will have to be fought out of it.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, June 15, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to his majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the Chair.

['Madame Chiang Kai-shek, I would seek to convey what has been made so manifest by this audience during your address-the deep sense of gratitude that you have evoked by your message, and the privilege which is ours to have heard not only the voice of China, but the voice of freedom, expressed by you in most eloquent terms and phrased in graceful English, comparable with the best in our literature. I speak not for both houses of parliament alone, but for all Canada, when I express the profound admiration of its citizens for Chung Hua Min Kou, or in our language, literally meaning "Chinese People\'s Country", the lovely name of the new China. And if I may be permitted to say, you have captivated all our hearts.\n\nQuestions\nYour country has furnished great gifts to the world and when the time comes, as it surely will, when those evil people shall be driven from your land, China will once again take pride in its ancient culture and appease its hunger and thirst for the new learning in the new schools and colleges which, even in the midst of universal destruction, your people have built.\nMay I respectfully request, Madame, that you will as opportunity offers, convey to your noble and heroic husband, Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek, Canada\'s abiding sense of obligation to him and to his valiant people. Canada\'s war is in the Orient as well as in Europe. Our armed forces are now fighting with your armed forces against Japan, and neither Canada nor China will lay down arms until they exact the unconditional surrender of that country.\nIt is for the good of all mankind that your and our race and peoples should understand and share friendship. May God in His infinite wisdom sustain and preserve you, and on that glorious day when this war shall cease, Canada will gladly join with your people in their long awaited triumph and will joyously repeat with you: Forever China.\nMadame, on behalf of Canada I say: We thank you.\nThe National Anthem having been sung, the gathering dispersed with three cheers for Madame Chiang Kai-shek.\nThursday, June 17, 1943']
The CHAIRMAN:: Shall item 1 carry?


Mr. PERLEY:: The minister was going to answer some questions.


Clarence Decatur Howe: 
Richard Burpee Hanson: Does the minister call that a break-down? That is just an announcement. What is wanted is a break-down such as we had from the other departments.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is impossible to give a break-down into particular items, because this is a war situation and we never know in advance what may be required.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But the
S45,000,000 is not an arbitrary figure. It must be based on estimates put down in black and white, and that I think is what is asked for.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can give a break-down of last year's vote in this way. For plants owned and operated by the crown we appropriated $18,117,291.01 and spent $12,276,866.62; for government-owned companies we appro-

War Appropriation-Supplies
priated $31,794.329.02 and spent $13,762,413,83; for government-owned plants operated byprivate companies we appropriated $398,848,051.34 and spent $295,742,378.77; for government-owned aircraft plants we appropriated $7,282,769.37 and spent $4,394,590.64.


John George Diefenbaker: On which plants were those expenditures made?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are overhaul plants chiefly, such as the plant operated by Canadian Pacific Air Lines at New Westminster; the overhaul plants on the prairies at Winnipeg, Moose Jaw and Prince Albert; overhaul plants in Ontario, of which there are several, and in the maritime provinces, where there are at least two or three.


John George Diefenbaker: It did not cover any kind of aircraft plant except overhaul plants?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right. Then for additions to government-owned plants operated by private companies we appropriated $53,170.543.50 and spent $21,730,172.94; for government-owned shipyards we appropriated $2,000,000 and spent $1,725,695.30; for government-owned extensions to private shipyards we appropriated .$20,824,325.78 and the actual expenditure was $12,221,543.49, which brings the total appropriations to $532,037,310.02, and the total expenditures to $361,853,661.59.


Ernest Edward Perley: I understand that the
minister is answering several questions now. He stated last night that he intended to answer them.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, I am going to answer a great number of questions as rapidly as I can get along with them.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I suggest to the minister that this is a huge commitment and a huge expenditure, $532,000,000 being allotted and $36S,000,000 actually expended. The figures which he gave to us are the sum totals only of a substantial number of items, and, they being so large, the committee is entitled to much fuller and more definite information than we now have. I have no doubt the minister has it in front of him. It would be of great advantage if we could know about the spread of this
S36S.000.000, where it went to, what concerns got it. I have in mind one or two companies which received large amounts of capital assistance but have perhaps made very little progress in production. It is advisable, and I think it would be wholly in the public interest, that before we pass these items we have full information with respect to these allotments of millions.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, Mr. Chairman, these items are tabled periodically. The last list
of capital assistance to Canadian industries was tabled early in the session and showed the capital assistance given as at December 31, 1942, and is an item by item break-down.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That was six months ago.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is now being brought up to date. It is a great deal of work. But I should be glad to table it as of July first, or we can do it as of the first of June, if that would help hon. members.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The house was not in session on the 31st of December.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As of the 31st of December.


Richard Burpee Hanson: When was that tabled?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It was tabled early this
session in June.
I was asked to give a statement of the reasons for selection of petroleum instead of alcohol as the base for the production of synthetic rubber. As hon. members know, the rubber crisis came on us very suddenly. At the fall of Singapore, or when Singapore was threatened we had occasion for the first time to be concerned about, our stocks of rubber. Fortunately we had fairly large stocks on hand, and even larger stocks on order. When the fall of Singapore occurred we had some 21,000 tons in Singapore and Penang. Of course we gave that up for lost, but strangely enough, practically all of that rubber arrived in Canada in due course, some of it after months. One boat had been in Penang harbour loading when the attack on Penang harbour came; it arrived months later with something like thirty or forty shell holes in the hull. It limped along without communicating with anyone and worked its way back into Halifax harbour. That, as I remember it, was a boat owned by the Canadian National Steamships. Other rubber was put on small boats, any sort of craft, and sent to any destination, but it was all billed to Canada and eventually practically all of it found its way here. However, we had to take immediate stock of the situation, and if we were to continue to play a useful part in the war we had to take immediate steps to find a substitute for natural rubber. Our neighbours to the south were in the same position. We pooled our stocks of rubber and we pooled the information as to the best move to make to meet the situation when existing stocks of rubber were to be exhausted. It was decided by consultations in which the best technical men of the United States, joined with the best technical men of Canada, that the only satisfactory sub-
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stitute for natural rubber is the type of rubber known as buna-S rubber. It is a compound of two elements, butadiene and styrene. The process is first of producing the two elements that make up that rubber, and then for polymerizing the two into artificial rubber. The best industrial engineers in the United States were engaged to engineer the necessary plans. Arrangements were made that all patents held in the United States for the process would be pooled and made free to both governments for the duration of the war and a certain period thereafter. It was the combined judgment of the two countries that petroleum as a base for butadiene would be the cheapest and most satisfactory.
At the time the decision had to be made, most of the United States programme for production of buna-S synthetic rubber was predicated on use of petroleum as a base stock for the production of butadiene. In order to get the project under way with minimum delay, as part of the over-all north American programme and obtain the necessary priority ratings for equipment and materials which were not procurable from Canadian sources, it was considered1 advisable to use existing plans, designs, drawings and specifications which had been prepared and developed by the Rubber Reserve Company of the United States.
Extensive development work in the processes involved in the production of butadiene from a petroleum base had been made in the United States, and Canada was offered the use of all information obtained on the same basis as similar projects in the United States.
Canada was given the full benefit of the patent pooling agreements which had been made by the Rubber Reserve company with the companies and industries in the United States whom it was felt were best qualified to help the government overcome the intricate problems which arose out of the manufacture of synthetic rubber on the large scale required for the war programme for the united nations. Under these agreements the processes covered by the valuable patents owned by the Standard Oil Development company covering the manufacture of buna-S and butyl rubber and butadiene, the principal basic material in the manufacture of buna-S, became royalty free for the period of the emergency. A certain percentage-25 per cent-of the materials and equipment required was not obtainable from Canadian sources, and by following the United States programme Canada was able to obtain much specially designed equipment by merely placing duplicating orders with the fabricators. In fact the main Canadian plants are duplicates of the corresponding United States plants.

We had at that time no other choice than to go to the United States for the engineering ability and technical skill required in the construction of the necessary plants, and the engineering firms whose services were available were mainly engaged on the petroleum base process.
The main decision made in Canada was to erect a plant capable of producing 34,000 long tons of buna-S per annum and the two basic materials required for its manufacture, namely, butadiene and styrene. Butadiene could be produced either from alcohol or from a petroleum base. The survey showed:
(a)	That the total facilities for the production of alcohol in Canada would produce less than one-third of the alcohol that would be required to provide the butadiene equivalent of the rubber required for the Canadian war programme.
(b)	That the combined cost of building additional facilities for the production of alcohol and the cost of building plants for the manufacture of butadiene from alcohol, were greater than the costs of building a plant capable of producing a similar quantity of butadiene from petroleum.
(c)	That in the cracking processes involved in recovering butadiene from petroleum we could recover ethylene, the principal basic material required for the manufacture of styrene, and could also recover isobutylene, the very cheap basic material used in the manufacture of butyl rubber.
(d)	That we could procure the butadiene, ethylene and isobutylene required for the production of 34,000 long tons of buna rubber and 7,000 long tons of butyl rubber without materially detracting from our normal gasoline and oil supplies.
It is generally assumed, I think, that by using an oil base for the production of rubber, the oil so used must be subtracted from the oil available for other purposes in Canada. That is not correct. The part of the oil that is used consists of the lighter fractions that are taken off in the cracking process, and after the requirements of rubber have been obtained there is just as good fuel oil left from the petroleum as would have been obtainable had the lighter fractions not been taken from the oil. The only difference that may be noted in the oil, after the light fractions have been taken out, is that it may not be quite as active in starting a car. The lighter fractions help to liven up the oil in starting a car, but apart from that there is just as good a product, practically as good a gasoline.

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(e)	That we had in Canada an oil refinery fed by pipe line which would enable us to centralize the operations in one point and be assured of continuous production, whereas production of butadiene and styrene from an alcohol base would be contingent upon having a ready supply of tankers and tank cars.
The projected plan provided a self-contained economical and efficient operation for the following reasons:
(a)	The best available location selected provided an adequate area adjacent to one of the largest refineries in Canada, served by water, rail and highway transportation and at a relatively short distance from the plants of the Canadian rubber industry engaged in the production of tires, which will consume about 85 per cent of the synthetic rubber to be produced.


Mr. MacNICOL:: How does rubber made from butyl compare with regular rubber in mileage and speed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The last word about buna-S is not known. It has been produced for only a very short time. Intensive experiments are now going forward and various fabrics are being experimented with but it is believed, from tests made to date, that buna-S rubber with nylon fabric will make a tire that is at least ninety-five per cent as long-lived as the best tire from natural rubber, and it is believed that with further experimentation and the further development of the art a better tire can be produced from buna-S rubber than can be made from the natural product.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Forty miles an hour would be quite safe?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh, yes; it is a first-class tire.
(b)	By extending the cracking facilities of one of the largest refineries in the country, we could obtain the desired quantities of three gases for which a limited use had previously been found, namely, ethylene, isobutylene and butylene, on a relatively low cost basis.
(c)	By erecting styrene, butyl and buna-S copolymer plants nearby, these gases can be transferred by pipeline without the costs, complications, difficulties and dangers involved in their transportation by tank cars.
The problems of developing organizations to produce synthetic rubber in satisfactory amounts and qualities and of procuring or training the necessary operating personnel for the various plants in the Canadian project could, for obvious reasons, best be met and solved by following the main lines of the United States programme.
The production of butadiene from a petroleum base did not preclude the possibility of using an alcohol base at some subsequent date, should it be found economical or advisable to do so, but at the present time the low cost of producing butadiene from butane, derived in the oil cracking process, as compared with its cost of production from grain definitely rules out the latter.
It is estimated that the cost of conversion alone in the production of industrial alcohol is approximately 10 cents to 12 cents per gallon from grain. Taking grain at, say, 80 cents a bushel, the cost of production for industrial alcohol from grain would run from 50 cents to 60 cents a gallon. If industrial alcohol is produced from whisky distilleries, the cost may range over 80 cents per gallon. For instance, in order to get our styrene plant into production as early as possible, we have found it advisable to purchase a limited quantity of ethyl alcohol for this purpose. The cost of this material laid down at the plant is 88 cents per gallon and, according to our information, this high cost will have the effect of increasing the cost of finished styrene by about 1,000 per cent. It is estimated that a United States gallon of alcohol yields approximately 2-2 pounds of butadiene and that the theoretical yields of butadiene from alcohol and butane respectively are 59 per cent and 93 per cent by weight, and that the cost of producing butane from industrial alcohol is about three times the cost of production from butane.
In order to equalize these costs, the purchase price of grain would have to be 25 cents to 30 cents per bushel. This is, perhaps, one of the reasons the farm bloc in the United States is not pressing further for the use of grain in the production of butane. Under present conditions it can be applied to many other purposes which will yield the farmer a much higher price.
That is the whole story about the use of wheat for industrial purposes. It can be used for the manufacture of rubber and for other industrial purposes, but to be used in competition with other available substances it must be sold at a very low price, and I am sure no hon. member would wish to encourage the use of wheat which would be predicated on a cost at point of use of from 25 cents to 30 cent a bushel.
In considering Canada's project for the provision of buna-S and butyl synthetic rubbers, it should be borne in mind at all times that the Canadian government owns and controls (a) the plant investment; (b) the operation of the plants and (c) the products and by-products
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of the plants. Private interests have only come into the project because the government has enlisted their knowledge, their technical skill and the results of their extensive research and development work. In other words there are no private strings on the Polymer plant at Sarnia, which is wholly owned by the government.


Mr. BENCE:: In connection with the very large quantity of industrial alcohol being manufactured at the present time in the various distilleries of eastern Canada, most of which I think is being manufactured from wheat, could the minister tell the house what grade of wheat is being used and what that industrial alcohol is costing per gallon?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I could not say what grade of wheat is used; I presume it is a low grade. Every distillery in Canada is running at full capacity to-day producing industrial alcohol from wheat. As I say, we bought some alcohol from our plants which cost us 88 cents per gallon laid down at Sarnia, but I believe the price at the distillery is somewhere between 72 to 78 cents a gallon.


Mr. EVANS:: The minister stated a moment ago that the price of wheat in this connection would be 25 cents a bushel. Is that at the plant or on the farm?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is delivered at the plant. Perhaps it will be of interest to hon. members concerned with this problem if I table the orders in council having to do with the Polymer project. Therefore I table copies of orders in council P.C. 2369, P.C. 2799 and P.C. 4252.


Mr. DONNELLY:: Could the minister tell us about how much alcohol is being made in Canada now?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The estimated production for the year 1943 is 14,000,000 gallons.


James J. Donnelly: And that will require about seven million bushels of wheat?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, about that.


Alfred Henry Bence: Will the minister give some indication of the expansion in connecton with the plants at Sarnia? I believe the one plant is to be ready this fall. Could the minister tell the committee how many plants there will be, and whether it is the intention of the administration to expand production in future?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have given the estimated production of the plant. Present indications are that the construction of the styrene plant will be far enough advanced to commence the manufacture of ethylene from alcohol by July

1 next, and of styrene at the rate of six thousand tons per year about two weeks thereafter. In other words the styrene plant will be in full operation, we expect, by the middle of July. The copolymer plant can only operate if we are able to secure butadiene from the United States; the butadiene plant will be the last to be finished. If we can obtain supplies of butadiene from the United States we should be operating at about twenty-five per cent of capacity and manufacturing buna-S rubber by the end of August.


John Ritchie MacNicol: At how much per pound? What is the estimated cost per pound to the government?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think anyone has an estimated cost to-day. The first large scale operation for the manufacture of butyl rubber came in only about six or seven weeks ago, and it is not operating at full capacity to-day. It will be remembered that there wras never a pound of butyl rubber made outside of laboratories or pilot plants, before the fall of Singapore. We are developing a new process and building a plant to carry it out. We are hoping that the price of buna-S rubber will be competitive with that of natural rubber over the average of the years, and perhaps better than that. We think perhaps we can get a better product at a competitive price, but that has yet to be proved.


Alfred Henry Bence: Do you propose to expand further?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


James J. Donnelly: You are going to get your styrene by cracking oil?


Clarence Decatur Howe: One component comes from cracking oil, but there are other components which come from nearby plants. I believe they are by-products of the steel industry; I have forgotten just what they are. Styrene is quite a complicated product, though; the one ingredient, ethylene, comes from the cracking of oil. I may add, Mr. Chairman, that the two butadiene units now in the course of construction have been delayed owing to difficulties in securing certain equipment, but it is expected that the A unit, 15,000 tons per annum, will be complete some time in September and the B unit, 15.000 tons per annum, some time in October. So that we should have our plant completed by November 1, and in operation on a full scale basis. The plant at Sarnia was designed to meet the full war needs of Canada, and we expect it to do so. It will not meet the peace-time needs in addition, but after the war is over it will wholly meet the

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peace-time needs, with some allowance for industrial expansion. As I say, however, the government is investing between $40,000,000 and $45,000,000 in the production of artificial rubber, and when this programme is finished the government's expansion in that direction will be finished also. If any private industry cares to carry on then, we shall have no objection.


Gordon Graydon: What is our usual peacetime consumption of rubber in Canada, does the minister happen to remember?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, it is in the vicinity of thirty thousand tons a year of crude rubber, perhaps between thirty and thirty-five thousand tons. We are making thirty-seven thousand tons of buna-S rubber in this plant and eight thousand tons of butyl rubber. I might add that butyl rubber is not suitable for the outer casings of tires, since it does not withstand abrasion, but it is more suitable than buna for certain other commercial uses. Each is a very valuable rubber for different purposes. Both are chemically pure, and therefore better suited to a great many uses than natural rubber.


Gordon Graydon: Then we shall be self-contained so far as rubber is concerned?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Mr. GRAHAM:: Some few weeks ago the Liberal members from Saskatchewan, who are deeply interested in this question, arranged to meet certain, officials of the national research council, and the information the minister has given to-day is the information that we received at that time. I should be glad, however, if the minister would complete his statement in regard to one oft-repeated suggestion dealing with this question of making synthetic rubber from alcohol. I understand that in the United States they are now using both industrial alcohol and petroleum as bases for the manufacture of synthetic rubber. I believe the reason is that the petroleum plants were not capable of handling the total requirements of that country. Would the minister deal with that point, namely as to why the United States is making rubber out of both these basic commodities.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It was realized early that the delay in getting the synthetic rubber programme under way would be in obtaining the cracking units for butadiene. That is the last item on our programme, and it is the last item on every programme. It was known that a butadiene plant from alcohol could be constructed in much less time, and
a number of alcohol plants for the manufacture of butadiene were built in the United States, in order to get the butadiene as quickly as the styrene and polymerization units could be used. We hope to start up our plant on butadiene made from alcohol which we will obtain from the United States. Of the plants operating in the United States to-day-I think there are two of them-both will eventually use butadiene made from petroleum, but are operating to-day on butadiene made from alcohol. It is the quick way-although it is expensive-of obtaining butadiene.


Ernest Edward Perley: I presume the minister
has finished with his explanations respecting the rubber situation?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Oh, no.


Ernest Edward Perley: Has he anything further?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Several other points were
raised.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Last night the hon.
member for North Battleford (Mrs. Nielsen) quoted Mr. Dyson Carter. Have any of the officials in the minister's department examined the publication mentioned, and can the minister make any further statement respecting the claims made by Mr. Carter? He seems to be well known as a scientist and an engineer, and there has been considerable publicity in respect of this publication.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The publication of Mr. Dyson Carter has been carefully studied by our experts. We have come to the conclusion that while he may be a very eminent man in certain fields of science, he is not so eminent in the field of artificial rubber. If my hon. friend is interested I should be glad to give him an analysis of the Dyson Carter statement, and the facts which correct the statements he has made. However I do not know that I should take the time of the house in dealing with this, because undoubtedly many hon. members have not read Mr. Carter's statements. They were published in Winnipeg, and were given extensive circulation throughout the west. Those statements were brought to my attention by an officer of the Saskatchewan wheat pool. I had an analysis made by qualified experts, and if my hon. friend wishes I shall be glad to send the information to him.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Would the minister
place it on Hansard? In view of the fact that the hon. member for North Battleford quoted at some length, I think the house would be glad to have it.
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Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad to do so, if I can obtain unanimous consent, and if the king's printer does not object. The statement is as follows:
Comments in regard to the charges, accusations and statements made by one, Dyson Carter, in a publication entitled, "So That Man May Prosper".
The main theme contained in the publication seems to be as follows:
Since butadiene, one of the principal materials required in the production of buna-S rubber, can be produced, either from alcohol or petroleum, and that since we have a surplus supply of grain, Canada has made a grave mistake in deciding to manufacture butadiene from a petroleum base instead of using its surplus grain for the production of .this material. That by using a petroleum base, we are unnecessarily consuming valuable supplies of crude oil when we need to make every barrel of crude petroleum available for war purposes. That ds the capital cost involved and the material required in the construction of plants to produce butadiene from petroleum is greatly in excess of the cost and quantity of materials and equipment required to produce it from alcohol obtained from grain; and further, that these grain alcohol plants can be constructed immediately in the large wheat growing areas of the country to produce synthetic rubber from wheat as a vital war production measure.
He states that we could produce cheaper rubber by using the alcohol-from-grain process because there are several such processes now "in the course of development" which will lower the cost of production and may be subsequently further improved.
The author of this publication has obviously made considerable study of the subject, but all through the piece he has the habit of jumping to erroneous conclusions and then building up a story of a false hypothesis. In spite of his expressed effort to get at the bottom of the subject and the true facts, he does not appear to have taken the trouble to inquire from any officials of the Department of Munitions and Supply, or of the Polymer Corporation Limited, a crown company formed for the purpose of constructing, equipping and operating a series of Canadian government-owned plants to produce synthetic rubber, as to the basic principles underlying the project or the reasons why they were followed. If he had done so, he would have had to revise a considerable portion of his booklet.
One is inclined to suspect that he was more interested in creating an alarming story which would appeal to sectional prejudice and substantially increase the sale of his publication, than in an accurate presentation of the actual situation. In the course of the article, he raises certain questions and makes an abnormally large number of insidious references for the apparent purpose of leading the Canadian public to believe that the petroleum interests, in both Canada and the U.S., are attempting to secure a monopoly on our synthetic rubber business by what he terms "racketeering and profiteering methods".
The following are a number of questions and statements contained in the publication, with comments in regard to them:
1.	"Just w'ho is advising the Canadian government in regard to synthetic rubber production?" (p. 12.)

If Mr. Carter had really wanted to get an answer to that question it would seem obvious that he should ask someone in the Canadian government who would be in a position to give him an answer.
2.	"When the war is over, will the Canadian people be saddled with a rubber industry that requires huge quantities of petroleum imported by the oil trust?" (p. 12.)
If by "requires" he means "consumes", the answer is-No.
3.	"Will it operate with excessive costs and profits taken out of the pocket of the man who buys tires for his car, truck and tractor?" (p. 12.)
The answer is again-No. Since the whole project and its products are owned and controlled by the Canadian government, this could hardly be true.
4.	"The machinery required to carry them out" (processes for producing butadiene from petroleum) "is costly and difficult to make under present war-time conditions, with an acute shortage of high quality steel. A whole series of plants have to be built to make butadiene from petroleum. To produce from petroleum the butadiene required to make 200,000 tons of buna rubber per year requires equipment costing $650,000,000". (p. 14.)
It is true that the machinery required is costly, but the difficulties of making it at the present time are considerably overcome, as far as the Canadian project is concerned, because we are duplicating, in most cases, equipment being made for similar projects in the United States, which have been fully engineered, designed and fabricated. It is a fact that certain basic refinery equipment is required before the butane can be cracked off to enter a butadiene plant, but where most of this is already available in an existing refinery, as in the case of the Canadian project, the cost of the butadiene plant can be considered separately. Mr. Carter states that to produce from petroleum the butadiene required to make 200,000 tons of buna rubber per year requires equipment costing $650,000,000. In the production of 200,000 tone of buna-S rubber, 150,000 tons of butadiene are required. Canada's project provides for a plant to produce 30,000 tons of butadiene per annum, and the cost of the butadiene plant will be approximately $9,000,000. Five plants w-ith this capacity would, therefore, cost from $40,000,000 to $45,000,000, which is less than seven per cent of the figure quoted by Mr. Carter and rather undermines his argument that the equipment cost for the production of butadiene from alcohol is only one-twrentiet*h of the cost involved in making it from petroleum.
5.	"An added trouble is that the oil and chemical companies have been squabbling for years over their countless secret processes and patents for making butadiene from petroleum." (p. 14.)
Mr. Carter, apparently, does not know, or has chosen to overlook the fact that pooling agreements, to which Canada is a party, have been made, under which the patented processes of procuring butadiene from a petroleum base have been pooled and placed on a substantially royalty free basis for the period of the emergency.
6.	"It takes about eight months to set up the wheat-butadiene factories compared with eighteen or twenty-four months to get the petroleum butadiene plants operating." (p. 14.)

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Mr. Carter completely overlooks the fact that the production of butadiene is only a part of the project involved in producing buna-S rubber. For example, an intricate and complicated plant for the copolymerization of butadiene and styrene into buna-S rubber has also to be constructed and equipped, and although it might only take eight months to set up wheat-butadiene factories, the equipment and its operation are very complicated, on Mr. Carter's own admission; and he further does not take into consideration the time involved in preparing specifications, drawings for and the fabrication of the necessary equipment before it reaches the assembly stage.
7.	In his attempt to besmirch the petroleum industry, he refers (p. 15) to an accusation by Thurman Arnold, Assistant Attorney General of the United States, that the Standard Oil Company of New Jersey turned over to Germany a process of making a better and cheaper synthetic rubber out of petroleum. It is assumed that he is referring to the processes involved in the manufacture of butyl rubber. From what we now know on the subject of the production of butyl rubber, if the Germans attempted to follow the original processes for the production of butyl rubber, which, it is asserted, were given to them prior to the war between the United States and Germany, they would not turn out a very satisfactory product. It has taken nearly the past eighteen months of intensive research and development to produce a relatively satisfactory type of butyl rubber. Fortunately, this has now been accomplished by the rubber chemists in the laboratories of the Standard Oil Company and the Humble Oil Company in the United States, but it is hardly conceivable that these subsequent developments are known to Germany. Even if they were, any disadvantages along such lines would be fully counterbalanced by the fact that as a result of the acquisition by the Standard Oil Company of the patented processes involved in the manufacture of buna-S from, I. G. Farben-Industrie, the synthetic rubber industry in the North American continent is now able to use, on a royalty free basis, these patented processes developed by the German Chemical Trust and purchased by the Standard Oil Company of New Jersey at a very substantial cost.
8.	Mr. Carter leans heavily on the Baruch report in support of his whole theme and states (p. 16) that according to the Baruch findings, the petroleum interests had greatly exaggerated the possibilities of making synthetic rubber from oil and that the big oil companies were attempting to establish synthetic rubber monopolies after the war by preventing production of synthetics from grain.
The Baruch committee criticized, and perhaps justly so, the early non-use of alcohol processes to produce butadiene in the interests of securing this material as quickly as possible, but Mr. Carter has chosen to ignore certain very important recommendations contained in the committee's report. If he were honestly attempting to put forth the pros and oons of the subject, he would have mentioned that the Baruch committee advocated, in the interests of the early production of buna-S in the United States,-	.
That no change be made in the programme as then adopted;
That it be pushed forward with all possible speed;
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That no new synthetic processes were to be substituted for those approved;
That there should be no delay in getting the greatest possible butadiene production from all sources; and further,
That all methods for the production of butadiene from petroleum and natural gases should be explored.
Mr. Carter also fails to state that the Baruch committee only recommended the production of increased quantities of alcohol for the procurement of butadiene in addition to the increase in butadiene production provided through the refinery conversion programme.
9.	Dealing with the Canadian situation, he states (p. 18) it is easy to understand that the Canadian petroleum operators would not want the public to know if Canadian synthetic rubber is to be made from oil because "Canada needs every barrel of available oil for war purposes".
Statements of this nature prove how little Mr. Carter knows of the actual situation, or, if he does know, that he does not hesitate to make erroneous and misleading inferences. The Canadian petroleum operators had nothing whatever to do with the government's decision to produce butadiene from a petroleum base: in fact, the company whose refinery was chosen to provide the basic facilities for cracking off the gases required demurred, considerably, over the prospect of taking any responsibility in the project. Furthermore, the inference that the procurement of butadiene from petroleum deprives Canada of oil for war purposes is entirely incorrect.
10.	Mr. Carter asks rhetorically (p. 18), without attempting to answer the question "Is the oil trust going to find some way to import huge extra quantities of petroleum into this country in order to get a monopoly on our synthetic rubber business?"
The answer to this question is-No.	One
can only assume that Mr. Carter does not want to know the answer.
11.	He also asks: "Are we going to make our petroleum problem even more critical by importing oil to make rubber?" (p. 18.)
The same answer can be given to this question as to the previous one.
12.	He raises the suggestion (p. 18) that Canada ought to supply the large British demand for synthetic rubber.
That question can be answered by stating that since Canada's project is part of the overall North American programme, and since a very large percentage of the synthetic rubber produced in Canada will be used to manufacture tires and tubes and other rubber products which will be manufactured in Canada and shipped to Britain, the greater percentage of the synthetic rubber produced in Canada will go to meet Britain's requirements.
13.	He asks (p. 19): "What prevents Canada from rushing into the large scale manufacture of synthetic rubber from wheat?"
The answer is that we have committed ourselves for a fairly extensive programme for producing the essential requirements from a petroleum base, and while he gibly talks of producing synthetic rubber from wheat, it is presumed that he means producing butadiene from wheat because there is much more involved in the production of synthetic rubber than merely the production of one of its main component materials.
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14.	He states (p. 19) that "for Canada to go into the manufacture of synthetic rubber from petroleum is not simply a mistake. It is an inexcusable and disastrous blunder".
"It makes us pay much needed Canadian money for foreign petroleum."
It should be unnecessary to refute these statements. Mr. Carter apparently does not even know the basic details of the Canadian project, nor has he taken the trouble to determine them. The statement that it makes us pay much needed Canadian money for foreign petroleum is absurd.
15.	He makes the statement that "it (Canada) finances with public funds a wasteful rubber manufacturing industry, one which the Baruch committee exposed as being far more costly than an industry making rubber from farm crops." (p. 19.)
The true facts do not support this statement. Even allowing for a slightly higher equipment cost involved in following the petroleum process, grain would have to be bought at from 25 cents to 30 cents a bushel in order to produce butadiene from farm crops as cheaply as from a petroleum base.
16.	He states (p. 19), "not a single phase of this whole question can be neglected."
This statement is fundamentally true and it is by such a policy that the Canadian government and those connected with the Canadian synthetic rubber project have ben guided. Anyone having the history of Canada's undertaking to produce a substitute for rubber for war requirements would know that Mr. Carter has, himself, neglected many phases of the whole question.
In these comments, I have not touched on the transportation problems involved in such a programme as is proposed by the Carter publication. The transportation of grain by boat or rail or butadiene by rail in special tank cars would present many difficulties in the light of the present situation, difficulties which are entirely overcome by the closely integrated project which is now in the course of completion.


Mr. QUELCH:: Would the minister report on a statement made by the Doan agricultural service, which I understand is the oldest and largest farm management and appraisal service in the United States? In their publication entitled "Little Journeys to Farm Land", they say:
(a) Rubber can be produced from American agricultural products more quickly than from any other source of material.
<b) The capital costs are about one-half as much for crop-rubber plants as for petroleum rubber plants.
(c)	No one knows the large-scale plant operating cost for producing rubber by any process. According to the best estimates agricultural products appear to be fully competitive with petroleum.
(d)	The only known-to-be-successful synthetic rubber plants in Europe are based on agricultural crops.
Would the minister comment upon this statement by the Doan agricultural service?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can only repeat that it is the quickest way to get butadiene, starting from scratch. WTe examined the cost of
facilities very carefully, and, assuming that you must/build a plant to make ethyl alcohol, and convert that ethyl alcohol into butyl alcohol, and then into butadiene, we found it a more expensive operation than building a plant to make butadiene from petroleum. A very careful analysis made by the best experts I could obtain in Canada-and including experts associated *with our national research council-is that it is competitive, provided wheat can be bought at the plant for from 25 to SO cents a bushel.


James J. Donnelly: The butadiene to be made in the plant at Sarnia is to be from oil.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, that is correct.


James J. Donnelly: And the styrene also is to be made from oil


Clarence Decatur Howe: One small component of styrene, namely ethylene, may be obtained from the same cracking process which makes butadiene. But the principal ingredients of styrene are, I believe, a by-product of the coke-from-gas industry and are transported from Hamilton.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Perhaps the minister would make any further answers he wishes to make with respect to rubber.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If there is to be any further debate in respect of rubber, then it might be well to finish it now. If we can confine ourselves to a discussion of rubber, I shall be glad to answer any other questions.


John George Diefenbaker: What proposals or schemes are there for the disposal of these plants after the war? I have in mind the Sarnia plant, for instance, and other additions. In the course of his remarks he said that the Sarnia plant, with perhaps extensions or additions, might be sufficient for peace-time needs. I think we should know now what is planned in that connection. It must have been canvassed and considered, otherwise the minister would not have been in a position to make that statement. I have reasons for asking this question, because, in addition to the fact that the government is advancing from $40,000,000 to $50,000,000 to this plant, the people of Canada have a right to know now the government's policy in respect to these plants. I realize an opportunity has not yet been given to the minister to reply to certain questions I asked the other day. I believe the rubber question might be separated from questions connected with government advances to other corporations. I say that because a few nights ago the hon. member for Saskatoon City (Mr. Bence) referred to a statement

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made by a consulting chemist of the Dow Chemical company. That statement has received wide circulation and to my knowledge has never been denied or answered by any governmental authority either in Canada or the United States. The statement was made last February before the Minnesota bankers' association, and was to the effect that the outstanding reason for not proceeding with the production of rubber through the use of alcohol manufactured from wheat, and the like, was that some arrangement had been made between the oil companies and the united nations with south African countries, whereby provision was being made now, or had been made under unpublicized treaties, for the destruction of all United States synthetic rubber plants after the conclusion of the war. That has been given wide publicity. According to the minister it will require considerable expenditure to produce rubber from an alcohol base; nevertheless it would build up an industry in war time which would be beneficial in peace time and give Canada an opportunity to dispose of her surplus wheat. Is there any foundation for the statements made by this gentleman? What are the official plans for the disposal of these rubber plants? Does the government intend to turn them over to private industry, or does the government intend to operate them as government enterprises after the war?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I read the statement of the man who my hon. friend says is an official of the Dow Chemical company. I do not believe he is an outstanding official of that company.
Mr. DIEFENBAKEIt: He is a research consultant.


Clarence Decatur Howe: He is not an executive of the company; he is a research consultant. I was consultant to a great many firms, and I presume this gentleman is a consultant to the Dow company and many others. I do not think it is the duty of a public man to deny everything he reads in the papers, especially statements by a man he never heard of. I have said already that the plant at Sarnia is exclusively the property of the government of Canada; it will be operated by the government of Canada; its products will be at the disposal of the government of Canada; they will be owned by the government of Canada and will be sold in the interests of the government of Canada. So far as I know that situation will continue indefinitely. I know of no change that is contemplated. Governments come and go and policies change with different governments. What the next government will do, I do not
know, but it is the intention of this government to continue to operate the plant at Sarnia to make rubber for the country at war and the country at peace.


James J. Donnelly: Do I understand the minister to say that alcohol made from wheat costing SI per bushel will cost something in the neighbourhood of 75 to 80 cents a gallon?


Clarence Decatur Howe: At the distillery.


James J. Donnelly: In normal times alcohol is made from molasses?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


James J. Donnelly: For about what price?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think 25 cents is a good price for alcohol in peace time, although it may be less.


James J. Donnelly: I understand that it could be made in peace time for about 15 to 20 cents.


John George Diefenbaker: While it may not be the custom of the minister to deny what appears in the press, has he any knowledge of any such treaty?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister has just said that the plant at Sarnia is being operated by the government and that it is the intention of the government, at present at any rate, to continue to operate it. A few minutes ago the minister tabled certain orders in council which have to do with the plant at Sarnia. Some weeks ago these orders and some others were tabled in response to a question of mine. I have not that sessional paper here, but my recollection of the situation, after studying those orders in council, is that the government owns the Polymer Corporation and that the government, through the minister, appointed the directors who are in charge of the plant on behalf of the government. I understand that they serve without fee. As I recall the orders in council, these directors have reported back to the government from time to time and have made certain recommendations. I think it was in April of this year that the directors recommended that the operation of this plant should be turned over to Imperial Oil and its subsidiaries. As I say, I am speaking from memory. Perhaps I should have said that the directors recommended that this government owned company ask Imperial Oil and some of its subsidiaries to come in and operate the plant. Some of us have the fear -the minister may not like our being suspicious in this way-that if Imperial Oil is called in to operate this plant during the
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course of the war, when the war is over Imperial Oil will be the only ones who really know anything about it. There would then be a very good chance of their getting control of the plant, unless steps are taken now to guarantee that it will continue as a government owned and government operated plant. I shall be glad if the minister will correct me if my story is not correct.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The cracking process for
making butadiene requires oil technicians. Imperial Oil are represented on the board of a company subsidiary to Polymer which is in charge of that operation. The officers of that company and the employees of that company are on the government payroll. Imperial Oil is assisting the government to get that branch of the business under way. Naturally you cannot pick men off the street who know how to crack oil to get the light fractions such as are used to produce butadiene. Imperial Oil are furnishing certain technical assistants, but they are doing it for government account.


Thomas Miller Bell: Are those men on leave of absence?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are engaged by the
government. Many men have come there direct from the universities to be trained, and they are government employees. The Dow Chemical company, who are experts in the production of styrene, are sponsoring operations at this plant in a similar way. They are furnishing the technical experts and have designed that section of the plant. They are training government employees in the manufacture of styrene. The four rubber companies which are the principal users of the product of this plant for the manufacture of tires and other products have joined together to take over the direction of a subsidiary company of Polymer which is operating the polymerization plant. Here again the employees are government employees, the rubber companies simply giving technical assistance to that branch of the enterprise. I may say that the Polymer corporation, which is a wholly government owned corporation-


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is that at Sarnia?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The whole operation is at Sarnia. The Polymer corporation owns the property, is responsible for the operations, and will be responsible for the sale of the product. It is a government owned corporation, responsible to the government.


Major James William Coldwell: What are the relationships between the other companies referred to and Imperial Oil? The St. Clair Processing company was one, I think.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is the subsidiary of
Imperial which at the moment is responsible for the operation of the butadiene end.


Major James William Coldwell: I believe another one is the Canadian Synthetic Rubber company.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is the subsidiary formed by the rubber companies to assist the government in the polymerization process.


Major James William Coldwell: As I understand it, these companies have lent the government certain technicians.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Major James William Coldwell: And the government has taken into these plants a number of young scientists from the universities who are being trained as technicians.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Major James William Coldwell: If I understand aright there will be a competent staff trained by the technicians which in the event of the country desiring to continue the operation of this plant, apart from Imperial Oil or the Dow Chemical company, will be available.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh, yes.


Major James William Coldwell: I am glad to get that assurance from the minister.


Mr. SHAW:: Many of us are intensely interested in the experimental work being carried on to produce alcohol from wheat. I have read from time to time that certain distilleries, particularly the larger ones, have been carrying on this kind of experimental work. Has that work been done with or without government financial assistance? If with government financial assistance, under what terms and conditions is the assistance given? Can the minister tell us what quantity of Canadian wheat was used last year in the production of alcohol?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Experiments have been carried on both by the distilleries and by scientific laboratories. Ontario government laboratories and our own national research laboratories have conducted quite extensive experiments in converting alcohol into butyl alcohol. I think that the experiments by the distilleries have been conducted at their own expense. It is pointed out by all that it is a difficult process. The bug that operates on wheat to convert it into butyl alcohol is a very delicate creature requiring great quantities of stainless steel to house the process. At one stage we tried to get the distilleries to make butyl alcohol with their present equipment but were assured that they could not do so and that

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reconstruction of the distilleries would be necessary to convert wheat directly into butyl alcohol suitable for butadiene.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Chairman, I think the minister deserves a good deal of credit for what he has already done in trying to bring about the production of rubber in Canada. I am going to ask him to go one step further and during the time that the whole process is under construction, and after it is in operation, to have government auditors make a survey of the exact cost of each process which enters into the construction of rubber in Canada. There is no certainty that after the war we shall be able to obtain raw rubber from Malaya. We read quite frequently that just before the Japs are kicked out of Malaya they will destroy the rubber forests. I hope that will not be so, but they may do that, in which case we shall not be able to obtain rubber from that source. The government is now financing rubber factories, I presume at very heavy cost-I am not blaming the government for that-and that is why I make this suggestion. I am informed by a steam-fitting company which I have known for many years that during the erection of the plant in Sarnia pipe-fitters had to be brought from across the line. That may or may not be so; I do not know. But I was told that these pipe-fitters were paid a very high wage or salary and were paid in United States money, or in Canadian money plus the exchange. I asked how much they drew and I was told that one man drew over S180 in one week for pipefitting. That might have included overtime and everything else. Naturally the minister would want to have this plant in operation in the shortest possible time, and to do that the men would have to work overtime. Therefore I am not blaming the minister for the high costs. But assuming that the costs were high, I hope that a careful check will be made by auditors so that if it is necessary for Canada after the war to keep these plants in operation our own tire factories may be supplied with rubber at a price which the government itself will know is reasonable. I am in favour of private industry because I believe that private industry will produce goods at less cost than the government can. Private industry runs its business on a business-like basis. Governments cannot. They have to stick this man in here and that man in there, and that cannot be avoided. But if a careful audit is made of those plants which may continue to produce rubber after the war Canadians will not have to pay too much for the rubber we need.
The more I look into it the more I am amazed at the phenomenal capacity of the
Germans in invention. If they had only used their great brains for the world's good, instead of, as they were, producing and inventing for war purposes, how much better it would have been for themselves and for the world! I believe it was Doctor ter Meer who discovered the process of making butadiene from oil. He had his process well developed by the early twenties, at which time Germany was producing oil from coal. It is amazing to me what a long line of products Germany has produced from coal, not only rubber, oil, and explosives-I believe toluol, which forms a basis of TNT, has been produced from coal- but several other products. The German government discovered that rubber could be made from coal through chemical processes, and then what did they do? They brought about the erection of a plant in 1937 to produce 30,000 tons of rubber a year. Another plant was erected in 1939 to produce 30,000 tons of rubber a year, and another of the same capacity was erected in 1940. They were setting out to destroy the world. That was the motive behind their inventions. I think in peace time we can make good use of these inventions.
I should like to find out from the minister what is the connection between those who are producing rubber, or the basis of rubber, at Sarnia and the Standard Oil company. The Standard Oil company owns the patents for America of the process. If on account of the war they are not charging for the use of these patents any more than the mere cost to themselves, that is all right; but if they are charging exorbitant prices for the use of these patents we should know it. They put up a pilot plant at Baton Rouge, and, according to evidence given before a committee of the United States senate, were producing by 1941 eighteen tons of butadiene per day; that is really 7,000 tons a year. On the basis of their costs in their pilot plant at Baton Rouge they took a contract from the United States government to supply 40,000 tons at 13-6 cents per pound. I should like to know what is the difference between the cost of butadiene per pound and of the finished rubber per pound. Then I should like to know if the government is keeping accurate audited costs of these plants that are being erected, and if it proposes to keep accurate costs of the finished rubber per pound produced by the goverment plants, so that the Canadian people will be defended against exploitation after the war and rubber will be sold at the right price. Because I am of the opinion that if the Japanese destroy the rubber forests of Malaya before they retire from that country-as we hope they will be forced to do-our Sarnia plant will prove a great advantage to Canada and incidentally bring

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much credit to the industry for having erected it there. The butyl, of course, is made from alcohol and can be made from oil of coal.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, it is not made from
alcohol. That is, it will not be so made here.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The Germans say it
can be.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, it can be.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I agree with what has been said, and I close by expressing the hope that if after the war Canada is compelled to manufacture synthetic rubber from either buna-S or butyl, the minister-and if he undertakes to do it nothing will stop him- w'ill thoroughly consider what has been suggested, and what I have suggested before, that a plant be put up in the west to produce butyl from alcohol. It is the duty of us all to try to free the west from the unhappy consequences of the depression. If a small plant could be established there to use 25 or 50 million bushels of wheat a year in the development of butyl for the production of rubber, we are in duty bound to assist the west to that extent. Certainly the plant at Sarnia will have all it can do to take care of eastern requirements.
I should like the minister to say whether records have been kept as to the cost in advance, to protect the future selling price of rubber to the Canadian people, and I should like to know about what time Canadian users of tires may hope to be able to buy tires made at the plant at Sarnia.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Most careful accounts are being kept of the expenditures. Both the Polymer company and the treasury have cost accountants on the work at the present time. Of course this is an expensive period to build anything, but I think, having that in mind the plant is being built economically. I know of no pipefitters being brought across the line. The Dow Chemical company, our engineers on the styrene plant, may have brought across' a few expert foremen, to handle the piping. As my hon. friend knows, a chemical plant consists almost wholly of high pressure piping; it is a specialist's task, and I am not saying that men may not have been brought across the line, though I have no knowledge of it. The wages paid at Sarnia are the wages set by the Department of Labour for the various trades; so far as I know they apply to all the employees on the job. The cost of building at the present time is higher than the cost of budding in peace time; how much higher, I cannot say. This is specialized work: every piece of material in the plant 
has to be specially designed and built. I will say this, we shall try to produce rubber at a competitive price, and as a government operation. If there is no other rubber about, it might be good business for the government to sell at a competitive price in any event, whether it can be produced at a competitive price or not; that is a matter for the future.
I have given a lot of study to the manufacture of synthetic rubber and I am confident that we are building an industry which will be effective in peace time as well as during the war. It may not be producing exactly the article that is produced to-day. But when we cast our minds over the great list of products made to-day from the light fractions of petroleum-items of great use in our civilization-I am certain that we are not building a plant at Sarnia with any prospect it wdl be closed when the war is finished or when natural rubber comes back into free supply from other countries.


John Ritchie MacNicol: After the war how will the government or the Canadian people be protected against any exorbitant price which might be charged by Standard Oil-I do not say that they will attempt to impose one- for the processes used in the production of rubber? The company control absolutely the hydrogenation process and the catalytic cracking process, and anyone wishing to produce rubber will have to obtain, the right from the Standard Oil, because they received it under the Hague convention of 1939 and they promised to hand it out. But shall we be protected from an exorbitant price for their process?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, Mr. Chairman. All the patents having to do with the manufacture of butyl rubber or buna-S rubber have been pooled with the United States government, and Canada has been included to share with the United States the right to these patents. I would not care to give the house the exact terms, but they are the same for Canada as for all plants being built for the United States government. My recollection is that no royalty is payable during the war and for a certain period thereafter, and that after that there is a royalty payable which has been agreed upon by the United States, by the subsidiaries, and by Canada.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Per pound?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I could not say. I do not recall the terms of the agreement, but we have an agreement. It is the same agreement as the United States government has, covering the patents of this process for peacetime use.

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Stanley Howard Knowles: I should like to refer for a moment or two to the question of the operation of the plant at Sarnia. We were discussing it a short while ago, and the minister and I differed as to the terms of the order in council, which neither of us had before him at the time. I have since looked into the matter, and I have before me a copy of the order in council to which I referred and a copy of the other orders in council dealing with this matter. In P.C. 2799, April 8, 1943, there appears, after the statement that the committee of the privy council have before them the report of the Minister of Munitions and Supply, the following:
That the company reports that
(b) Arrangements have been made with Imperial Oil Limited and its subsidiary, St. Clair Processing Corporation Limited, Dow Chemical Company of Canada Limited, and Canadian Synthetic Rubber Limited, for the operation of the respective units being constructed.
I am alarmed at the wording of a previous order in council, P.C. 2369, of March 27, 1942, which was the order in council that set up the Polymer Corporation Limited, setting out its general terms. Part of the order in council is schedule A, the memorandum of agreement, in which we are advised regarding the functions of the Polymer Corporation Limited. I read, in section 1, subsection (a):
The company will forthwith proceed to acquire, construct, instal and establish the necessary land, buildings, machinery, equipment and plant . . . for the manufacture, production and storage of synthetic rubber.
I call attention to the significant omission from this original order in council of the word operation. Polymer Corporation Limited was set up to acquire, construct, instal and establish the plant, but no mention is made that Polymer corporation, which is owned by the government, should operate the plant. Then thirteen months later the company recommends to the government that the companies which I have named should operate the respective units being con-constructed, and P.C. 2799, of April 8, 1943, approves the recommendation that these companies operate the plant.
Another sessional paper, which was brought down in response to questions of mine, gives us the names of the president, the vicepresident, the managing director and the directors of Polymer Corporation Limited. They are:	R. C. Berkinshaw, President;
D. W. Ambridge, Vice-President; J. R. Nicholson, Managing Director; W. R. Campbell, A. C. Guthrie, A. J. Crawford, G. A. LaBine, and Colonel A. L. Bishop, directors.
I will not read in full sessional paper No. 388, to which I am referring, but it shows that these men I have named hold the offices indicated, and that many of them are directors of other companies. It is the usual who's who of big business, and here again is the story of a group-


Clarence Decatur Howe: What big business is Mr. Crawford in?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Well, since the minister has asked I will give the details:
R. C. Berkinshaw is general manager and treasurer of the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Co. of Canada Limited. He is a director of the following firms or corporations:	Goodyear
Cotton Co. of Canada Ltd.; Toronto Elevators Limited (vice-president); Easy Washing Machine Co.: Ltd. (vice-president); Crown Trust Company; Polymer Corporation Limited; Mutual Life Assurance Co. of Canada.
D. W. Ambridge is assistant general manager of the Ontario Paper Company and is now on loan to the Department of Munitions and Supply as director general, naval shipbuilding branch. He is a director of the following firms or corporations: Polymer Corporation Limited (vice-president); Best Yeast Company.
Wallace R. Campbell is president, treasurer and director of the Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. He is also a director of the following firms or corporations: Ford Motor Co. of Australia Pty. Ltd.: Ford Motor Co. of New Zealand Ltd.; Ford Motor Co. of South Africa Ltd.; Ford Motor Co. of India Ltd.; Ford Motor Co. of Malaya Ltd.; Polymer Corporation Limited.
A. C. Guthrie is president of Simmons Limited, Canada. He is a director of the following firms or corporations: Simmons Limited, Canada; Simmons Limited, U.S.A. and its subsidiaries (director and vice-president); The Murphy Paint Co. Limited, Montreal.
A. J. Crawford is employed by Sheet Metal Workers' International Association and as a director of Polymer Corporation. He represents the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada. He is a director of no other firm or corporation.
G. A. LaBine is president of Eldorado Gold Mines Limited. He is also a director of the following firms or corporations:	Eldorado
Mining and Refining Limited; Gunnar Gold Mines Limited; Howey Gold Mines Limited; Pan-American League Against Cancer, Inc; member of the board of governors of the University of Toronto; Polymer Corporation Limited.
Col. A. L. Bishop is president of the Coniagas Mines Limited; Coniagas Reduction Co. Ltd.; Sturgeon River Gold Mines Limited and The Consumer Gas Co. of Toronto. He is a director of the following firms or corporations: Coniagas Mines Limited; Coniagas Reduction Co. Ltd.; Sturgeon River Gold Mines Ltd.; Consumer Gas Co. of Toronto; Coniaurum Mines Limited (vice-president); The Manufacturers Life Insurance Company; The Toronto General Trusts Corporation; Imperial Bank of Canada; Anglin Norcross Corporation Ltd.; Anglin Norcross (Ontario) Limited; Canadian General Investment Limited; Canadian Locomotive Co. Ltd.; Commonwealth Electric Corporation Limited;
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The Consolidated Mining and Smelting Corporation of Canada; Toronto Shipbuilding Co. Ltd. (crown corporation).
J. R. Nicholson is managing director of Polymer Corporation Limited. Formerly Mr. Nicholson was deputy controller of supplies in the Department of Munitions and Supply. Other directorships-none.
I submit that, in the light of this information, the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) and I, though we may not want the same set-up after the war, are equally entitled to some more definite statement as to what is to happen to these plants at that time. I am not for the moment entering into a discussion of the merits of producing rubber from alcohol or oil, and I am not to be taken as at all deprecating the fact that a synthetic rubber plant is being built. All power to the minister in getting rubber produced. But I am concerned about the set-up which I have outlined. First, we have a company set up, and emphasis is placed on the fact that it is a completely government-owned company and that its directors serve without fee. But as you read the orders in council you discover that the company was given all the functions connected with getting the plant started but not the function of operating it, whereas thirteen months later the company, consisting of the directors whom I have just identified, recommends that the operation of the plant be carried on by the companies that I have named: Imperial Oil Limited and its subsidiary, St. Clair Processing Corporation Limited, Dow Chemical Company of Canada Limited and Canadian Synthetic Rubber Company Limited. Some of us have the genuine fear that when the war is over these are the companies which will be in virtual possession by reason of the fact that they will know how to operate the concern, and there is every possibility that what should continue as a government project after the war-that is just as important then as it is now-will pass out of the government's control.
Mr. HOWE; To me one of the discouraging features of public life is the objection that certain members have to using the experience of men who have gained that experience in the hard way and have emerged as successful men of business. I wonder who my hon. friend would choose to be directors of a great corporation responsible for spending some $40,000,000. I think each of us is wise to follow his own experience. I have been a professional man all my life. I have learned how to do certain things by doing them, and by doing them repeatedly. I have done more work, perhaps, in the building of grain ele-

vators than in any other branch of engineering, and I can tell my hon. friend that the last grain elevator I designed was vastly better than the first one; it was less costly to the owner and more efficient, and that was the result of my experience gained in doing the same work repeatedly.
When my hon. friend and various others rise in their places here and say we should have farmers, and we should have labour men, to direct these corporations, let me tell him that in the days of my private life farmers were my surest clients. The farmers do not do the things certain people in this house say we should do. When farmers spend the money of farmers, they choose men who have experience in doing the thing they want done. When the farmers wanted to build a terminal grain elevator they would come to me, because they knew I had built grain elevators, and they felt that I could give them value for their money. That is the view the farmers have taken; and I can tell you I admire them for the fact that any dollar they spend of cooperative money is well and carefully spent, under expert guidance. And they are not particular how much they pay for that expert guidance; they are willing to pay the current price in order to get the best advice available. That has been my experience in my own professional life, in spending the government's money. I have been spending other people's money for a great many years, and I know it has to be spent carefully. When I was made responsible for spending a few billion dollars belonging to the people of Canada, I got the very best advice I could get in the spending of that money. I have put in charge of every operation, for which I have been responsible to the people of Canada, the men best qualified by experience, and by having done similar work, to look after that operation. I am not apologizing to anyone in this house for having done that. It is all very well for a man of my hon. friend's experience to rise in his place here and sneer at people who occupy positions of trust in this country, but those are the people on whom I am banking. If I have made any success in handling my present portfolio, it is because I have been able to command the services and the devotion of those people in the job I have in hand. So that I wish my hon. friend would discontinue that line of cheap, soap-box oratory in this house.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On a question of privilege, Mr. Chairman, my remarks have been referred to as sneering. I wish to state to the minister that I have not objected to his-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No reply there.

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Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Will the hon. member please come to the point of privilege?


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. The hon. gentleman raised a question of privilege, and was interrupted; you were about to rise, Mr. Chairman, and before you do so I want to discuss a point of order. Have I your permission to do so? I take it that the hon. member has a right to rise and object to his remarks being termed sneering, or to its being said that he has been guilty of soap-box oratory.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Major James William Coldwell: Hon. gentlemen opposite may laugh now, but in a little while the laugh may be on the other side of the mouth. I should like your ruling, Mr. Chairman. Has the hon. gentleman the right to discuss the question of privilege arising out of the remarks of the minister?


Mr. ROSS (Moose Jaw):: On the point of order, the hon. gentleman was not discussing a matter of privilege; he was starting to reply to the minister.


Major James William Coldwell: Why should he not?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: On the point of order, of course a member of the committee has the right to rise and ask to speak to a question of privilege.


Stanley Howard Knowles: 
Joseph-Arthur Bradette: It would seem that we are not making headway, nor shall we do so if
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we continue to discuss the whole realm of i munitions and supply under the heading of rubber.


John George Diefenbaker: I appreciate what you say, sir, but my aim in asking the question at this time was to have it dovetail with the discussion on rubber.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I like my hon. friend's sublime confidence that this government will carry on indefinitely after the war.


John George Diefenbaker: They should make decisions now.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think it might be answered, logically, that the policy of the government in this regard will be made known in due course.
I might point out, however, that up to this time the function of the Department of Munitions and Supply has been to win the war. We have not built plants with one eye on the post-war world. We have built them because they were required for the war, and only for that reason. We never had a double purpose in building plants. Of course rubber is vital to the war, and also to the postwar period, and perhaps it is unique in that respect. The source of natural rubber has gone-for how long we do not know.
The joint production and resources board examined the needs of war, so far as rubber was concerned, and undertook to plan for the production of that rubber, including the requirements of Great Britain and other allied countries. When the full programme is completed, that will have been provided. Canada took its share of the programme, and undertook to supply its own requirements. The
45.000	tons which will be produced in Canada will supply Canada's war requirements in full, and is somewhat more than the pre-war peace-time requirements. We were interested especially in supplying war-time requirements in full, and it is only incidental that those requirements happen to be a little more than our peace-time requirements.
The hon. member asked me about the future Polymer Corporation Limited. I advised him that the government had no plans, other than to operate the plant as a government property, and that it should be operated by the government during the war and during the peace. Governments change their plans. Any' government plan can be changed in very short order. It is quite possible that in the peace-time world, when war considerations have no meaning, this or some other government may decide another policy for the plant. That is the privilege of the government of the day, in any event. Naturally, I am not attempting to commit the government now. [The Chairman.]
The hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) asked about the future of Citadel Merchandising Company, Limited. The Citadel company was formed to do a war-time job, namely, to find great quantities of machine tools, in bulk. It was quite impossible for individual companies to function in buying machine tools to meet their individual requirements. It was decided that all requirements should be pooled, and that the Citadel company would operate and pay for the pool. It is very fortunate that arrangement was made, because through the Citadel company we got our machine tools, and got them with reasonable expedition.
To-day the Citadel company has pretty well completed its function of buying machine tools, but at this time it is the custodian of some $150,000,000 worth of machine tools, and moves them from plant to plant as required. To-day it is the source of a great saving to Canadian industry, by having possession of a pool of machine tools which can be used by industiy as a whole. I assume that after the war the position of the Citadel company will change again. It will probably be the custodian of machine tools owned by the government. How soon they can be liquidated, or what will be done with them, I do not know. Obviously, however, the Citadel company was built up to serve wartime requirements, and will gradually disappear, as it can liquidate its war-time assets.
The hon. member asked about Cutting Tools and Gauges Limited. This company offered a way of filling cutting tools requirements and arranging for their manufacture in Canadian factories. As my hon. friend knows, the value of cutting tools is nil, after they are worn out, or are not required. It would seem that that would be a company very quickly liquidated after industry gets back to a point where it can look after its own cutting tool requirements.
Then the hon. member asked about Research Enterprises Limited. This is a unique company, and was built to fill a position not filled by any Canadian operation. It was built first to manufacture optical glasses by a process worked out by the national research council, and to manufacture certain secret instruments developed by the research council. It still fills a unique spot on this continent, and has expanded enormously owing to the fact that it was built to pioneer in fields of activity in which other companies were unwilling or unable to operate.
I cannot say now what the future of Research Enterprises Limited would be in the post-war period. Obviously the manu-

War Appropriation-Supplies
faeture of optical glass should and no doubt will continue after the war. Certain other processes which have been worked out for war processes have great peace-time value, such as the adaptation of radar equipment to peace-time purposes, and arrangements may be made to carry on Research Enterprises. I cannot say at this time whether it will operate as a public or private company.
There is one difficulty about operating under public direction. I think the government corporations and the crown companies are the most efficient plants we have to-day, but I would ask hon. members to keep in mind that these plants are being operated by the cream of Canadian industrial talent. We have persuaded men with interests of their own to give part of their time, often a considerable part, to operating government-owned plants or to act as presidents or directors of government-owned companies. I doubt very much if it will be possible to obtain that kind of service in peace time. These men are doing their jobs to-day as war jobs, and when the war is over I presume that they will wish to return to their own businesses. Therefore, the question of operating a publicly owned plant in peace time is quite different from operating a publicly owned plant in war time, and that must be kept in mind by any government when planning a post-war world.
At the moment we are studying what the plants can be used for, that is, what a plant making war materials can make in the way of peace materials. We have directed our studies to that rather than to how the plants will be operated after the war, whether privately or publicly. I think that is secondary and must be governed by the day to day facts. I do not think it is of great importance fundamentally, or at least it does not seem so to me. Since I came to the government in 1935, I have taken publicly-owned plants that were being operated badly and have sold them to private interests. I have taken plants from private interests that were being operated badly and have made them into government-owned plants.


John George Diefenbaker: What public plants that were not being operated properly have been sold to private interests?


Mr. ROWE:: I would mention the Sorel shipyard for one. My hon. friend was not in the house at that time. There have been others, all in the pre-war period. I have taken over a good many privately owned plants to be operated as publicly owned enterprises and I think they are being operated
better to-day than they were when they were privately owned. I believe I have done more than any man in the history of Canada to put the government into public ownership. I am not studying that problem at the moment. I do not know whether two years after the war all the plants that are now publicly operated will be publicly operated. I think it will depend a great deal upon whether they can. be publicly operated successfully and efficiently. If they can, there may be no other reason for making other arrangements. If they cannot, it would certainly be in the interests of any government to see that they are placed in private hands for operation.


Ernest Edward Perley: When the committee was about to adjourn last night I gave way to the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) who made a very good contribution to the discussion. There was more meat in what he said in ten minutes than there has been in what has been said in an hour or two on other occasions. At that time I intended to make a few observations with respect to the minister's estimates. One of the matters I had in mind was synthetic rubber, but knowing that the minister was going to deal with this matter to-day, I gave way.
I think it is evident from the questions I have asked with respect to the production of alcohol from wheat, that I am just as much interested in this as any other hon. member. The minister has given us some interesting information this afternoon with regard to the production of rubber from alcohol made from wheat and from petroleum. He went into great detail with respect to the whole problem. His statement that the government will continue to operate the plant at Sarnia for a given term in order that the Canadian people may be supplied with rubber at a fair price was most encouraging. He stated that under an agreement with the United States authorities the patented formula being used for the production of synthetic rubber will be available to this plant for a given time even after the war. I know the minister will be able to operate this plant successfully. He has already stated, and I think rightly so, that he is an adept at choosing the right men for the right jobs. If he chooses the right men to carry on this plant he will be able to produce rubber at a fair price.
The information he gave about the cost of producing rubber from alcohol and from petroleum was most interesting. He has told us that with wheat at eighty cents it would cost about fifty to sixty cents to produce a gallon of alcohol. Then he went on to say
War Appropriation-Supplies

that in order to equalize this cost with the cost of producing rubber from petroleum, wheat would have to be sold for twenty-five cents a bushel at the plant. I do not think there are any farmers in western Canada who will be anxious to sell their wheat at twenty-five cents a bushel or to pay fifty cents a gallon for alcohol. The minister may not have intended to use it in that way, but the figures he has given prove conclusively that the production of rubber from petroleum is the best method. He said that all methods had been thoroughly investigated and that no other course was open to the government than to go to the United States for the raw material. Another interesting point brought out by the minister is the fact that the production of synthetic rubber from butadiene does not decrease the amount of gasoline which may be extracted from the petroleum. Did I understand him correctly?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Ernest Edward Perley: Then I think the minister should consider the development of oil from the tar sands of Alberta as well as from the oil wells that are now in production in the west. Synthetic rubber could be made from this petroleum without decreasing the amount of gasoline that could be produced.. We understand that the production of synthetic rubber from alcohol made from wheat is still in the experimental stages. If these experiments are continued, it may be that a process will be discovered of producing alcohol at a lower cost, which would permit paying a better price for the wheat used.
This concludes my remarks with respect to rubber, and I trust that to-morrow I shall be able to make a few observations on the minister's general statement. The information he has given the committee this afternoon has been of great value and has enabled many of us to understand more clearly the synthetic rubber situation.


Major James William Coldwell: I, too, think that the information we have received from the minister this afternoon is valuable and will enable us to review the whole situation of the manufacture of synthetic rubber in a way in which we could not have done without that information. I have read a great deal on the subject, and I must say that the minister's figures this afternoon rather nonplussed me. I felt that a great deal of the information I received from other sources must have been based on premises entirely different from the minister's. The more we can have of discussion of this sort, the nearer we shall get to the truth.

There is one other thing I wish to say. The minister spoke with some heat of criticism. I am not blaming him, but I think it is well that those of us in this house, realizing the magnitude of the organization over which the minister presides, should scrutinize with great care every order in council and every contract made by the government. I share some, in fact all, of the suspicions of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre. It has been shown by past experience that it is not wise to place in positions of almost absolute control men whose economic associations are such that they are to a large extent governed by them.
When the minister and also the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre were speaking, there flashed vividly to my mind an incident that occurred in this building less than two years ago, when an outstanding business man connected with one of the great organizations in this country doing war work suggested that it might be wise now to prepare for the postwar situation, particularly regarding government-owned companies and government-owned machines. The suggestion was made that ways and means should now be devised of salvaging this equipment in order that, when the war ended, these new war industries would not interfere with vested and established industry in this country. The further suggestion was made, and there are hon. gentlemen here who will remember it as well as I do, that the same committee of business men might also concern itself with the formation of tariff policies to protect Canadian industry when the war ends.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Who said that?


Major James William Coldwell: I will tell the minister afterwards.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Was it said in this house?


Major James William Coldwell: 
Clarence Decatur Howe: I just wish to say to my hon. friend that I am a technical man and he is a professional man, but my experience leads me to believe that business men are necessary, too. If this company tends to operate as a public trust, I think we are very well advised to let business men run it, because their training and the training of technical or scientific men are poles apart.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Crerar the house adjourned at 5.45 p.m.



[Stage Direction]
Address of Madame Chiang Kai-shek to members of the Senate and of the House of Commons in the House of Commons Chamber, Ottawa, Wednesday, June 16, 1943, at 11 a.m.
Madame Chiang Kai-shek was introduced by the Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King, Prime Minister.
Hon. James Allison Glen, Speaker of the House of Commons, presided.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker of the Senate, Mr. Speaker of the House of Commons, Honourable members of both Houses of Parliament: Our country is honoured today by the presence in its capital of a gracious lady who is one of the great personages of the world.
To Madame Chiang Kai-shek I extend the sincerest of welcomes on behalf of the government, the parliament and the people of Canada. We welcome Madame Chiang for what she is in herself. We welcome her as the devoted wife of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek, the great leader of the republic of China. And we welcome her as the interpreter of the needs and the virtues of the patient and heroic people of China, the first great power to resist axis aggression.
I should like to thank Madame Chiang anew for having promised, some little time ago, to visit Canada before her return to China; and
for having consented, while in Ottawa, to
Madame Chiang Kai-shek

address the members of Canada's parliament from the floor of its House of Commons. Madame Chiang was obliged to postpone her return to her homeland for some weeks in order that her health might permit her to fulfil the promise she had made. We are deeply conscious of her kindness in so doing.
Madame Chiang speaks today, as it has been given to few individuals in all history to speak. She speaks for the struggles and sufferings, and equally for the highest aspirations, of an ancient race. She speaks for an immemorial culture. Combining with dignity and grace, great spiritual courage, she stands in our midst fully mindful of the toil and sacrifice which, over many cruel years, she has shared with China's valiant defenders. No recital of the noble qualities of her mind and heart could add to the respect and admiration with which we receive her in our halls of parliament to-day. [DOT]
The inspired leadership of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and his brilliant wife personifies the spirit of China's fight for freedom- freedom not only from aggression, but from all the forces of evil. Moreover it is freedom not for China alone, but freedom which, through understanding and mutual aid among men and nations, will further the well-being of mankind throughout the world. Generalissimo and Madame Chiang Kai-shek voice and exemplify the spirit which animates the defenders of freedom everywhere.
We would ask you, Madame Chiang, to carry to the Generalissimo the expression of our high regard for him, and the assurance that the people of Canada have unreservedly joined with the people of China in putting forth their utmost effort to destroy the evil forces that now seek to dominate the world.
We should like you to tell the men and women of China how unbounded is our admiration of their unswerving fortitude. Their uncomplaining courage has not been surpassed in the annals of human resistance. Canada, in common with all the united nations, is increasingly conscious of the debt that freedom owes to the unconquerable spirit of China.
We are proud to-day to recall that within the expanding circle of the united nations, Canada and China, through the exchange of ministers, have strengthened the ties of friendship between our two countries.
It is the earnest hope of all Canadians, Madame Chiang, that to you and to the Generalissimo may be granted the health and Divine guidance which will enable you together to continue your magnificent work for the unity of your own country and1 the liberation of all its people.

Our prayers are joined with yours that the day may not be far distant when China, wholly free, may take her rightful place among the free nations of the world.


Hon. J. A. GLEN (Speaker of the House of Commons):: Madame Chiang Kai-shek,
Mr. Speaker of the Senate, honourable members of both Houses of Parliament: In these war days this parliament has in its deliberations and affairs created many precedents, and to-day we are making further progress. Never before in our history have we heard the voice of a woman, not a member, address us from the floor of the House of Commons. The occasion which provides so unique an event must have attributes and meanings so outstanding and so deep as to render this gathering appropriate and most befitting.
In all grave crises in national and international affairs wre have seen great figures and great personalities arise Who seem to embody in themselves the issues to be decided. History abounds with such figures. In the records of this present struggle, to the generic term "mankind" must be specifically attached the term "womanhood". Certainly in no other war of magnitude has the power and service of -women been so universally employed, and inevitably there have arisen women leaders and world figures -who by precept and example have set the standard of devotion, duty and sacrifice-safe guides in an unsafe world. Our distinguished guest to-day is one of those great world figures.
Madame Chiang Kai-shek has honoured us by her presence and it is our privilege to receive that honour. During almost six years she has borne the toil and sorrow of unceasing -warfare. She has lived in her country occupied by a remorseless foe who has inflicted on her beloved people unparalleled barbarities. Yet, through it all she has kept alive the high spirit of her people in a manner truly amazing, commanding the wondrous admiration of the whole world. Her very presence with us to-day is an illustration of the spirit which has sustained her through those years which the locusts have eaten, the triumph of mind o'er the ills of the body.
Honourable members of both Houses of Parliament, it is with modest pride that I, a mere mortal, present one of the immortals, Madame Chiang Kai-shek.
MADAME CHIANG KAI-SHEK:	Mr. Speaker, Mr. Prime Minister, members of the Senate and members of the House of Commons:	I deem it a privilege and pleasure to
be here in your midst to-day, for I have been long looking forward to visiting you and your

Madame Chiang Kai-shek
country. I am conscious of the honour of addressing your parliament, because your national assembly, as an institution, dates 'back in unbroken lineage to that ancient and worthy institution, the Anglo-Saxon witenage-mot. It is an institution which has proven its mettle in weather fair or foul. Parliamentary government to you and to me means that it is built on the basic laws of the land and the common consent of the people carrying out a policy within the mandate given by the people. Based on this authority of ancient usage and the legislative enactment of the supreme authority in the state, we have custom which connotes "unwritten law," and law which is "written enactment." I think it was well put when a great Roman writer of the first century B.C. said: "A people is not an assemblage of men brought together in any fashion but an assemblage of multitude associated by consent to law and community of interest."
We would all agree that a truly parliamentary form of government is the most nearly-perfect system of government human reason could ever evolve. And we say that parliamentary government is run by the "rule of law." In other words, it has its foundation on immemorial custom and right reason. No single individual, no group, no class is above laiw. Parliament has final competence in expressing law and men can only be punished by breach of law. In this way every individual citizen is within the framework of the law and is thereby protected.
But these ideals and principles were not immediately practised upon their formation; rather they came into being through the passage of time. If we remember, there were indeed fearless men who did not hesitate to speak out their convictions through the centuries. In the sixteenth century, Sir John Elliott, in his celebrated impeachment attacking the favourite minion of Charles I, compared Buckingham to Sejanus. To us, whether Charles I was implied to be a Tiberius or not, matters little. What stays our attention is the implicit demand that a minister should possess the confidence of parliament.
Whatever we may think of Milton's unprincipled opportunism in vacillating between Cromwell and Charles II, we must recognize that Milton did contribute to the fight for the principle of freedom of speech as seen in his "Areopagitica." Much later the Quarterly Review, the Westminster Review, and the Edinburgh Review, as exponents of freedom of speech, grew and flourished and became journals of excellence. They achieved their great purpose inasmuch as they brought public questions before a wide audience. The public
became conscious of affairs outside the compressed bounds of their personal lives and voluntarily absorbed their accepted discipline as a great power in the world. Men like Wilberforce and Buxton took their stand and worked against slavery and advocated the freedom of man.
Others like George Grote and John Stuart Mill worked for the freedom of institutions. These are merely a few names amongst the many social and political reformers of your great mother country. I need not, however, tell you that it was due to centuries of incessant struggle by your people against the strongly entrenched absolute powers of unreason that your present parliamentary system of government came into being.
It may be interesting to contrast the system of parliamentary government with axis tyranny which once threatened to engulf the civilized world, and to examine the fascist philosophy and see wherein it differs fundamentally from yours.
Germany during the Weimar republic had all the outward "appearance" of a democracy, but it degenerated and became extinct after an existence of less than two decades. In its place grew up a demoniac Mephistopheles nurturing persecution and miasmic hate. That such a retrogression could take place shows that the majority of the German people were not aware of the true essence of a constitutional form of government and that the integrants of making it a lasting and true democracy were wanting. Some people conjure that democracy implies that individuals may be allowed to engage in activity even when it is directed against the interests of the state. Others regard democracy to be "a charming form of government full of variety and disorder." By permitting activities subversive to democratic ideals that nation denies to itself the right of self-defence, while those who think that chaos lends charm to democracy deny to democracy the right of self-preservation.
Never for a moment should we confuse democracy with ochlocracy. Democracy is disciplined self-rule. Democracy may be likened to beautiful architecture; for every part of the tracery and sculpture, supreme in its individuality, claims a permanent place on its own merit and then surrenders it to the entire composition thereby enriching the whole and relieving it from the tameness of mere qualitative perfection. Ochlocracy, on the other hand, is but the inchoate rococo of mob rule bred on febrile emotions and unrestraint.
Present-day Germany has become an im-mane dictatorship because it precludes the right of the governed to forensic dialectics.
Madame Chiang Kai-shek

The fascists believe that a preponderance of force constitutes all legal requirements and justification of a government. They have dragooned and deluded the people into a belief of superstition in the infallibility of their leadership. They have refused the people the right to challenge the fallibility of men holding power in the government. We of the united nations, on the other hand, accept the challenge of query permitting divergent views the right of discussion so that all ideas in the deepest recesses and nethermost comers of the human mind are reexamined and weighed; for we think that this is "a method which produces a better average of humanity and the most scientific of despotism".
Besides the excellent pattern of parliamentary government which Canada represents, I am impressed by the fact that here in your country one finds the greatest example of two steadfast peoples, the French and the British, who in the history of their development of the country were not unmarred by wars and who have now come to live side by side as one people in concord and harmony. In achievement the descendants of the French settlers, as well as those of Anglo-Saxon origin, have contributed in full measure to the progress and prosperity of Canada. This record is indeed noteworthy.
When a part of your vast country was colonized in its early days, the French colonial authorities of Lower Canada instituted in every parish a militia captain chosen from among the "habitants". True enough, this nominee was appointed by the governor. But the commissions were given or withheld according to whether people approved or rejected the nominee at the regular Sunday assembly. That was an outstanding example of public representation, a practice to follow the will and wishes of the people. The natural good manners, social ease, and never-failing liveliness characterizing the French people made them eminently suitable for the adventurous life of early colonizers. One never fails to be reminded in one's travels in the United States that such names as Detroit, St. Louis, Vincennes and Louisiana all bear impress of the adventurous spirit of the French Canadians. The coureurs de bois with their fortitude and understanding of the Red Indians instilled into the new continent a priceless heritage-the opportunity of liberty. The French peasants who came to Canada with their frugal traits worked up to become landowners. Here it was not uncommon for the lord of a manor, his lady and his children, to toil together in the fieldis. They developed respect for labour and, unlike some countries of the time, they did not look upon manual
[Madame Chiang Kai-shek.]
work as degrading but rather as the natural expression in which every man must participate, and recognized that every labourer is worthy of his hire. Such was the levelling influence of frontier life.
The Gallic church also played a large part in the development of your country. Some of the most colourful and glorious chapters of Christian missions began in North America. The Jesuit priests were explorers, cartographers and teachers. It was Pere Marquette who with Louis Jolliet explored the Mississippi. It was the Catholic Fathers who produced the first maps of lake Superior in 1671 and the northern parts of Michigan and lake Huron. It was the Jesuits who first preached Christianity among the Hurons and aspired to convert and civilize the whole continent of Red Indians.
I recall also the intendant, Jean Talon, who was blessed with vision and foresight. Not content that a few people should profit by the land of milk and honey, he advocated the idea that Canada should be opened up to take the pressure off the increased population in Europe, the great majority of whom were then living in squalor and poverty further accentuated by heavy taxation raised to finance the private wars of kings and princes motivated by selfish ambition of aggrandizement.
Canada, and the world as well, owe a debt of lasting gratitude to men like Poulett Thomson, the first Baron Sydenham, for his wise statesmanship in adopting moral suasion rather than brute force in carrying out his policy during his tenure of office as Governor. Later, Lord Elgin, while representing the crown in Canada, accepted the Liberal party in the formation of the Canadian cabinet, thereby recognizing responsible representative government. Since then your country has made steady and logical progress in unity of government, and' your people have evolved cohesion of purpose and action so that to-day you are an effective member of the united nations in the fight against aggression.
In my address to the Congress of your great neighbour, the United States, I mentioned that in the common interest of the united nations, Japan must not be permitted to have undisputed possession of the territories she has seized in China and elsewhere, for with the help of time, she is accumulating added resources to continue the axis war of aggression. The material she has commandeered during the past twelve months reaches staggering figures. From ocoupied territories within the great wall of China, on the average, every month, three million two hundred thousand tons of raw materials were shipped

Madame Chiang Kai-shek
to Japan, whilst two million eight hundred thousand tons were shipped from the occupied territories in Manchuria to Japan. In addition, each month, she transported from territories inside the great wall, two million three hundred thousand tons of material for the heavy industries she is building in Manchuria and other parts of Asia. In short, within the last year, Japan has seized and carried away, in round numbers, one hundred million tons of raw material for the use of her armed forces. This figure does not include the foodstuffs her army in China's occupied areas consumed. The importance of driving Japan from China can be further seen when we consider that from Malaya, Japan, the past year, had only shipped approximately six million tons, the ratio of about one to sixteen as compared with what she appropriated from China. She is continually consolidating her position as a vicious world threat and increasing her exploitation of China's resources aimed at the united nations.
My country, China, for six years has hung like a millstone around the neck of the Japanese military, and has succeeded in preventing Japan from utilizing several millions of her armed forces and workers in other parts of the world. With ill-equipped men we have fought with small arms, flesh and blood, and the will to battle. Until a few weeks ago, the Chinese army never had the sort of consistent air protection necessary for even small-scale offensives. The fact that our army with the help of a few planes in the combined American and Chinese air forces was able to rout the enemy in the last upriver Yangtze invasion proved conclusively that comparatively, much can be done with comparatively little. The danger to China and to the united nations, however, is not past; the magnificent will to resist of the Chinese people and army implemented only by inadequate fighting material must not be strained bej'ond human endurance, for if Japan should succeed in subjugating China, the repercussions to the cause of the united nations would be the greatest cataclysmic disaster civilization has yet to face.
Like that of China, the contribution which Canada has made to our common cause has not been of the spectacular. I am constrained to say that those of Great Britain and the United States as well have rarely been in that domain. Yet we must realize that it is not the occasional brilliant strokes which determine victory; it is the steadfast performance of preconceived plans in strategy backed by the willingness to contribute ungrudgingly to the common effort that will tip the scales. We should constantly bear
in mind the fact that contributions to ultimate victory must not be evaluated by the ephemeral criterion of the spectacular. The accumulated heroism of your commandos, the large amount of foodstuff and munitions which your country has sent to England, the manner in which you have utilized your air bases for training of allied effort, and the fact that per capita Canada has produced more for the war effort than any other member of the united nations are indicative of Canada's will to fight to victory.
There are few new doctrines in the world. In fact, to my mind, we do not need any new doctrines but we should see to it that every worthy doctrine is fully developed and practised. In the same way, we should not sit and hope for a fortuitous concourse of events to creating a better world after the war, but should have the moral courage to strike out and explore the possibilities of making a better world. Caraffa (Pope Paul IV) was once told by Cardinal Pecheco of the corruption around him. Far from resorting to anger, he examined the situation and took steps to eliminate those who were responsible for the evils. He was not afraid to rise above the melee surrounding him; he fought against favouritism and won the battle of the will to righteousness.
There are some skeptics to-day who regard all post-war world collaboration with the eyes of cynics. Bacon, a nationalist of the exclusive school, lacked a sense of statesmanship; for he did not realize, as we do to-day, that rulers and statesmen owe allegiance to civilization and to humanity at large. To-day his well-known maxim: "The increase of any state must be from the foreigner; for whatever is somewhere gotten is somewhere lost," sounds to those of us who have the slightest inkling of economics to be risible although his logic to like minds may have seemed to be irrefutable. Compare him to Grotius his great contemporary, and you will immediately understand what a part vision and imagination can play.
If we but possess the pertinacity to bring it into being, what was yesterday regarded as the impossible becomes to-day the reality. In the middle ages, I may point out, papal bulls of excommunication, bloody wars in determining the true Catholic faith, religious pogroms and inquisitions impoverished and tore Europe asunder. What could seem more inconclusive than a question which involved the arbitration of men's souls? Who could have thought, nay, dared hope, that movements of reformation could finally materialize with the religious peace of Augsburg in 1555?
Madame Chiang Kai-shek

Again, the British North America Act in 1867, providing for the federation of Canada, was thought by many at the time to be alienating Canada from the British commonwealth. In reality it forged stronger bonds of affection and ties between Great Britain and your country.
The world to-day is once more at the crossroads. Let us realize that in planning for a post-war world the transient assets of a policeman in the Hobbesian sense given world-wide application will be far from adequate unless we actualize it with the fundamental and the positive. Should not we of the united nations also strive for foresight and exercise understanding so that the vanquished will be treated as neighbours and as fellow beings while punishment should be limited only to the perpetrators of this war?
Indeed from Canada, through your welding successfully two peoples into one strong and harmonious nation, the world has much to learn in universal brotherhood. The touchstone of human greatness lies in cooperation and collaboration, the antitheses of domination and exploitation of one people by another.
Speech delivered by the Honourable Senator Thomas Vien, K.C., Speaker of the Canadian Senate, on the occasion of the visit of Madame Chiang Kai-shek to the parliament of Canada, Ottawa, Wednesday, the 16th of June, 1943. Madame,
our coming to America has captivated our minds and delighted our hearts. In our annals we had already written your name down as one of the eminent women who throughout the ages have brought blessings and honour to mankind.
You have been named "the Joan of Arc of the East" and, like our own valiant Maid from Lorraine, you suddenly appear "because the times are hapless and there is much sorrow in the fair land of China!" Your career is one of simplicity and grandeur, a career that would be handed down to posterity as a splendid legend were it not so real. It is also your mission to drive out the invader and to wage war beside your husband, the illustrious generalissimo, whose chivalrous qualities remind us of Roland, Duguesclin and Bayard, while your own services to your sorely tried people recall the virtues of Jeanne Mance, Marguerite Bourgeoys and Florence Nightingale.
Endowed with a keen intellect and a warm heart, you have not hesitated to jeopardize your life that you might make your appeals to the united nations for justice and liberty, and for that purpose you have come from China that lies across the Pacific-the venerable ancestor of world civilization.
[Madame Chiang Kai-shek.]
While the splendours of Egypt, Greece and Rome were disappearing in the mists of time, China pursued its steady course through the centuries, even assimilating those invaders who had, at times, succeeded in retaining a foothold in the land.
Your people have been an ingenious people. It was they who more than four thousand years ago invented the compass, and discovered the means of making silk. It was they who nine centuries ago invented gunpowder. They devised and used the printing press long before Gutenberg. Three thousand years ago, they were familiar with music, architecture, sculpture and ceramics, and China still holds the secret of its admirable porcelain, which other countries envy but are unable to reproduce. Five centuries before our era, your philosophers laid down the rule that "as ye would that men do to you, do ye also to them likewise", and taught ancestor worship, brotherly love and "the doctrine of the mean", prelude of that "holy indifference" which is the basis of Christian asceticism.
Your personality, may I say, Madame, is a symbol of that wisdom and knowledge which your people, for centuries, have faithfully and reverently held and guarded as a sacred treasure. You have stirred us deeply by the warmth of your eloquence, and if possible, strengthened our determination to go on fighting, not alone for our own freedom, but as well for the freedom and peace of all mankind-our determination not to lay down our arms until there has been a complete and final victory over all our enemies, Germany, Italy and Japan.
There remains, Madame, but to offer you our great good wishes for the success and happiness of yourself and your illustrious husband, with our ardent and sincere faith in the prompt and complete liberation of your heroic motherland-immortal China I


James Allison Glen: Madame Chiang Kai-shek, I would seek to convey what has been made so manifest by this audience during your address-the deep sense of gratitude that you have evoked by your message, and the privilege which is ours to have heard not only the voice of China, but the voice of freedom, expressed by you in most eloquent terms and phrased in graceful English, comparable with the best in our literature. I speak not for both houses of parliament alone, but for all Canada, when I express the profound admiration of its citizens for Chung Hua Min Kou, or in our language, literally meaning "Chinese People's Country", the lovely name of the new China. And if I may be permitted to say, you have captivated all our hearts.

Questions
Your country has furnished great gifts to the world and when the time comes, as it surely will, when those evil people shall be driven from your land, China will once again take pride in its ancient culture and appease its hunger and thirst for the new learning in the new schools and colleges which, even in the midst of universal destruction, your people have built.
May I respectfully request, Madame, that you will as opportunity offers, convey to your noble and heroic husband, Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek, Canada's abiding sense of obligation to him and to his valiant people. Canada's war is in the Orient as well as in Europe. Our armed forces are now fighting with your armed forces against Japan, and neither Canada nor China will lay down arms until they exact the unconditional surrender of that country.
It is for the good of all mankind that your and our race and peoples should understand and share friendship. May God in His infinite wisdom sustain and preserve you, and on that glorious day when this war shall cease, Canada will gladly join with your people in their long awaited triumph and will joyously repeat with you: Forever China.
Madame, on behalf of Canada I say: We thank you.
The National Anthem having been sung, the gathering dispersed with three cheers for Madame Chiang Kai-shek.
Thursday, June 17, 1943