Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement with reference to the forthcoming victory loan.	,
In the budget speech I indicated that the estimated borrowing needs for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1944, would amount to $2,748,000,000.
As a first step in meeting these borrowing needs the national war finance committee will on April 26 launch Canada's fourth victory loan. We Canadians have reason to be proud of the record of our victory loan campaigns, and of our response to them. In October last the third victory loan was an outstanding success, accounting for $991,000,000 from over two million subscribers.
The present situation clearly calls for even more impressive results, and the minimum cash objective for the fourth victory loan will 72537-84
be $1,100,000,000. As I have emphasized in the budget speech we are primarily concerned with selling victory bonds in greater amounts and to a greater number of Canadians. The reason is threefold. First, because we have to raise huge sums of money in order that the war may be effectively prosecuted. Secondly, as I have pointed out many times, the increased spending power in the hands of our citizens, if not directed into savings, will lead inevitably to inflation. Thirdly, our desire is that more and more of our government obligations should find their way into the hands of our ordinary citizens-people of moderate means whose interests now and in the future can best be served by owning what I might describe as "a share in Canada". The fourth victory loan will present another opportunity for every Canadian citizen to acquire a proprietary interest in his own country and I hope that every Canadian will make a serious effort to take advantage of this opportunity.
In all these victory loan operations substantial support arises from the subscriptions of non-banking financial institutions and from industrial corporations. This source of borrowing can only go so far, however, as new corporate funds ordinarily available for investment are now subject to strict limitations such as the excess profits tax. In the third victory loan purchases by this class of investor accounted for the very large sum of $600,000,-
000.	I am sure that such investors, as in the past, will do their utmost to provide leadership of the highest quality in the forthcoming victory loan.
It is evident, however, that in any case the balance remaining to be met by individual purchasers will be greatly increased. To succeed in passing the minimum objective of $1,100,000,000 will require purchases by individuals of $500,000,000 or more-an increase over third victory loan results of 33 p.e. or thereabouts for the country .as a whole. To reach this objective for individuals we will need to obtain participation on a much wider scale than in the past, and individual purchases will need to be sharply increased. I am accordingly asking the national war finance committee to make every attempt to increase participation in the loan by Canadians in every walk of life.
I recognize that it will call for a supreme effort on the part of the Canadian people to face this new demand of the war effort. The fourth victory loan will be another challenge to the Canadian people-the greatest financial challenge with which they have ever been faced. While the need for money is greater than ever before it is equally true that the bond buying power of the majority of

Privilege-Mr. Mulock

Canadians is greater by far than at any previous time. The coverage therefore must be broader; more individuals must subscribe if the bond drive is to play its part in this present emergency. The results of the fourth victory loan campaign will measure our determination and unity of purpose to attain the primary and outstanding goal for which we all live today-the goal of achieving a complete and overwhelming victory. I am confident that we can and will meet this challenge.



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: On March 1 last I tabled. a chart of the Department of Munitions and Supply, and at the time the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) requested that additional copies be tabled for distribution. I now lay on the table 260 copies of this chart and would request that they be distributed to hon. members.


PUBLIC SERVICE
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Under the provisions of the Public Service Rearrangement and Transfer of Duties Act, I table a copy of the order in council transferring the functions of the dominion fuel board to the coal controller and transferring the functions of the Minister of Finance related thereto to the Minister of Munitions and Supply.


SPECIAL COMMITTEES
[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved;
That the name of Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury) be substituted for that of Mr. Hazen on the select committee on railways and shipping.
That the names of Messrs. Bence, Ross (Calgary East) and MacKenzie (Neepawa) be substituted for those of Messrs. Stirling, Gershaw and Maybank on the select committee on reconstruction and reestablishment.
That the names of Messrs. Maybank and Fulford be substituted for those of Messrs. MacKenzie (Neepawa) and Telford on the select committee on social security.
That the name of Mr. Edwards be substituted for that of Mr. Ross (Calgary East) on the select committee on the defence of Canada regulations.
Motion agreed to.

Hon. W. P. MULOCK (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Roy) is reported at page 1267 of Hansard of March 15, 1943, in part as follows:
At the time that three ships were sunk opposite Cap Chat in the first days of July the boat I just mentioned was carrying some sportsmen going on a fishing trip on the north shore. Said boat was escorted by a corvette as far as to the north shore, but if my information is correct, this corvette did not complete the fishing trip with the boat, but came back to the south shore.
These are the words to which I object:
My information is that the boat was escorted at the request of the Postmaster General (Mr. Mulock) because it was carrying the mail to the north shore.
That statement is absolutely and definitely not in accordance with the facts.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: At whose request was this boat escorted? Let the government tell us that.


William Pate Mulock: I made a definite statement.


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):: The boat was not escorted at all.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is a question of fact.



JUDGES ACT


[Stage Direction]
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 8, to amend the Judges Act.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Explain.


Mr. CHURCH:: This bill contains two clauses. The first clause seeks to regulate the serving of judges on commissions, dominion, provincial or municipal, the work of which would take them away from their judicial duties. The second section deals with the question of judges following the decisions of the privy council or the court of last resort in connection with mixed marriages. Since the bill was before the house last year, only last week a judge in Montreal, Hon. Mr. Justice Forest, commented upon this to a representative of the church, Canon Morin, in a case before him. He said:
"Don't you think there should be some agreement between the Catholic church and the state on this matter of mixed marriages?" queried his lordship.

Questions
"I wish there were," replied Canon Morin.
I ask that this bill be given some consideration. This legislation is going to be more necessary than ever after the war, and I plead with the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent) to give consideration to both clauses of the bill.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. QUESTIONS
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)



CANADIAN ARMY EMBLEM

[Stage Direction]
Mr. LaCROIX (Quebec-Montmorency):
1.	Has a distinctive emblem been adopted for the Canadian army in England?
2.	If so, is it a banner or a flag?
3.	Is the British flag that of the armies of South Africa, Australia and Canada?
4.	Is there a non-official flag, but one recognized as that of the Canadian army overseas?
Mr. RALSTON:: 1.	See answer to question 4.
2.	See answer to question 4.
3.	The union, or union jack, is the device on the king's colour of Canadian regiments. The union jack is flown on selected forts, armouries, drill halls and other buildings occupied by the Canadian army in Canada.
4.	Apart from, and in addition to, flags and colours carried by regiments, the King's regulations make provision for various flags to be flown at sea by members of the army council, by general officers commanding stations and by governors of colonies and lieutenant-governors. For use in the field, regulations provide for flngs or pennons designating certain military headquarters and also for flags on motor cars and for mounted orderlies of general officers commanding-in-chief, and commanders of specified army formations. But there was no provision for a flag designating the commander or the headquarters of a dominion force at sea or in the field.
In 1939 Major-General (now Lieutenant-General) McNaughton suggested that a distinctive flag should be available to be flown by the commander of the senior formation of the Canadian active service force. A design was approved by the then Minister of National Defence, for the purpose indicated, and has been so used since the 1st Canadian division, then the senior formation of the Canadian active service force, proceeded overseas in December, 1939. Later the flag was successively transferred to the commander of the 1st Canadian corps and later to the commander 72537-841
of the first Canadian army, as each became in turn the senior formation of the Canadian army overseas.
This flag is for special identification: to afford a ready means of distinguishing the character of the headquarters over which it floats, and the portion of the commonwealth to which they belong. It has no status as a national flag. Its use does not interfere with, or infringe upon, the prescribed uses of the union flag.
Its use may be compared with the present use of the red ensign with the Canadian arms in the fly, flown on suitable occasions on buildings owned or occupied by the Canadian government and situate without Canada.



MOBILIZATION ACT-KINGSTON ADMINISTRATIVE DISTRICT

Mr. BENCE:: 1.	What are the names of the members of the board under the N.R.M.A. for the administrative district with headquarters at Kingston ?
2.	What is the name of the divisional registrar?
3.	What are the names of the officers of this administrative division responsible to the board ?
4.	How long has each been employed in his present position?
5.	How much money has each received for, (a) salary, (b) expenses?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	Chairman:	Hon. Mr. Justice A. W.
Greene; deputy chairmen., James Roderick MacLaren, Esq., William A. Parisien, Esq.; member, His Honour Judge J. C. Reynolds.
2.	Lome McDonell, Esq.
3.	The registrar, Lome McDonell, is the officer in charge of registration and procedure and directs the staff and is the contact official with the Board.
4.	Lome McDonell, Esq., was appointed August 28, 1940.
5.	(a) Salary $9,038.78; (b) expenses, $392.87.



ST. LAWRENCE SUGAR REFINERY

Mr. BLACKMORE:: 1.	Has the St. Lawrence Sugar Refinery been closed down?
2.	If so, on what date?
3.	Was it closed because of lack of supply of raw cane sugar?
4.	How much refined sugar was produced by this company during each of the years 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942?
5.	Has the government adopted any measures adequate to make up the sugar deficiency resulting from the closing of this plant?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	Yes.	.
2.	February 1, 1943.
3.	No.
Questions

4.	1939, 178,322,940 pounds; 1940, 189,812,517
pounds; 1941,	190,543,837 pounds; 1942,
130,740,188 pounds.
5.	There will be no sugar deficiency from the closing of this refinery. Arrangements have been made between the St. Lawrence Sugar Refineries Ltd., and the Canada and Dominion Sugar Company to refine all sugar in the port of Montreal in the plant of the Canada and Dominion Sugar Company. This is feasible with the reduced production due to rationing.



PRINCE RUPERT-CEDARVALE HIGHWAY

Mr. HANSON (Skeena):: 1.	What percentage of work was done on the Prince Rupert-Cedarvale highway up to March 1, 1943?
2.	Have arrangements been made to construct the road east of Cedarvale to link up with the now existing highway at Hazelton?
3.	Has the contract been let on this gap between Cedarvale and Hazelton? If not, what is the reason?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: I
understand the hon. member is willing to let this question drop for the time being.


Mr. HANSON (Skeena):: I have obtained the information I need from the minister, so that I ask that this question be dropped.
Question dropped.
saskatoon, sask., naval barracks


Mr. BENCE:: What steps has the administration taken to provide for. the erection of a naval barracks in the city of Saskatoon?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The general policy, so far as possible, is to provide satisfactory training and living accommodation at all Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve divisions.
Saskatoon is being actively studied with a view to providing better accommodation, but no definite decision has been reached as yet.
helicopters


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	Is the government now building helicopters in Canada?
2.	If not, do they contemplate building any?
3.	Is any research work being done in this direction?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	No.
2.	No.
3.	No.
IMr. Iisley.]



IMMIGRANTS BY RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION, 1939-42

Mr. BLACKMORE:: 1.	How many immigrants were admitted to Canada in each of the years 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942?
2.	How many of those admitted were Protestants?
3.	How many were Roman Catholics?
4.	How many were Jews?
5.	How many had no religious affiliations?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	Calendar year 1939, 16,994; calendar year 1940, 11,324; calendar year 1941, 9,329; calendar year 1942, 7,576.
2,	3, 4 and 5. Information is not available as to the religious persuasion of the immigrants.



EXPORTS OF BRESSF.D BEEF

Mr. MacINNIS:: 1.	Was any dressed beef exported from Canada to the United States during the calendar year 1942?
2.	If so, what amount?


James Angus MacKinnon: Mr. Speaker, I am tabling the official answer to this question. If the hon. member wishes to have certain other information-the whole information-for his own personal use, I have it here and shall be glad to send it to him.


Mr. GRAYDON:: The minister tables what he says is an official answer to the question, and indicates that there is further information available to the hon. member. I think we ought to have made clear the difference between an official answer and an answer.


James Angus MacKinnon: I have spoken at various times on questions of this kind. Censorship regulations rule out the publication of certain trade statistics, and these are in that class. I have no objection to giving the information to the hon. member for his own use, but we cannot start to pick and choose information to be made public in regard to shipping.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There is no censorship on parliament.


James Angus MacKinnon: Under the censorship regulations these figures are banned from publication, but where a member of the house desires such information for his own more or less confidential use I see no reason why he should not be given it. In this particular case I have the information here and am ready to give it to the hon. member.

Questions as Orders jor Returns



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. RAYMOND:: 1.	What are the names of the employees of the Department of Finance in the various departments including the Senate and the House of Commons, and the years and service of each one?
2.	What are their individual salaries?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Return tabled.


INTERNMENT OF WAR PRISONERS-RATES OF PAY TO OFFICERS AND MEN
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1.	Do German and Italian officers and men receive any pay from this government while they are in internment camps in Canada?
2.	If so, what are the rates of pay for men, non-commissioned officers and commissioned officers?
3.	Do the German, Italian and Japanese governments pay Canadian officers and men interned in their countries?
4.	If so, do they receive the rates of pay customarily paid to Canadian officers and men?


ASSISTANCE TO FISHING INDUSTRY
Mr. HANSON (Skeena):: 1.	What was the total financial assistance given by the federal government, by way of statute, bonus or otherwise, to the fishing industry (including shellfish), for 1942. (a) Atlantic coast, (b) Pacific coast, (c) inland fisheries, if any?
2.	What was the amount in connection with shellfish?


GILMOUR BUILDING, REGINA-T. II. WOOD
Mr. PERLEY:: 1.	Has the government acquired the whole or any part of the Gilmour building on Scarth street in the city of Regina?
2.	Was this building or any part of it leased by the government? If so, on what terms?
3.	For what purpose?
_ 4. Are any alterations necessary? If so, what is the cost thereof, and what part will be recoverable at the termination of the lease?
5.	Were any tenants compelled to move from this building to get possession for the government? If so, how many?
6.	Was one T. H. Wood, a photographer, allowed to remain in occupation of a studio in this building?
7.	If so, was he treated differently from other tenants and why was he allowed to remain?
8.	Has T. H. Wood a privileged position in the sale of photographic material to the government of Canada?


HAMILTON BUILDING, REGINA-M. L. FITZGERALD
Mr. PERLEY:: 1. Is the Canadian government acquiring or has it acquired by purchase, lease or otherwise,
the whole or any part of the Hamilton building, situate on the corners of Hamilton and South Railway streets in the city of Regina?
2.	If so, from what person or persons?
3.	How much floor space and upon what terms?
4.	Are alterations being made? If so, at what cost, and who pays for same?
5.	What alterations are being made and if any portion is being paid for by the government under lease arrangement, how much will be recoverable at termination of the lease?
6.	Is M. L. Fitzgerald employed in Regina by the wartime prices and trade board?
7.	If so, what are his duties?
8.	By whom was he recommended for such position?
9.	What is the rate of his remuneration?
10.	Does the said M. L. Fitzgerald reside in the building above referred to?
11.	Is he any relation to or connected with any of the owners from whom the government acquired the said premises?
12.	For what particular use were the said premises acquired?


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE COMMISSION - REGISTRATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF
Mr. BLACKMORE:: 1.	What is the total number of permanent positions in the unemployment insurance branch of the government throughout the country?
2.	Did the civil service commission in making these permanent appointments bar all competition from any persons outside the civil service?
3.	If so, from whom did the civil service commission get permission to exclude candidates outside of the civil service from competing iu these examinations?
4.	Were the temporary employees, under the-jurisdiction of the director of national registration of unemployment relief, blanketed into-permanent positions in the unemployment insurance commission? If so, how many and why?
5.	What is the name and present position in the civil service of the former director of national registration of unemployment relief?


OLD AGE PENSIONS
Mr. WRIGHT:: 1.	What amount, if any, of the $76,150 recovered by the province of British Columbia from the estates of old age pensioners during the calendar year 1942 has been paid to the dominion government?
2.	How much, if any, of this money is recoverable by the dominion government?
3.	What amounts, if any, have been paid by each of the provinces of Saskatchewan, Alberta, Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island, from moneys collected from estates of old age pensioners to the dominion government in each of the years 1940 1941, and 1942?
4.	Is the placing of a caveat against- the property of old age pensioners by the provinces required by the dominion government?

Motions jor Papers


UPLANDS AIRPORT-IBON FIREMEN
Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: 1.	How many iron firemen were installed in the Uplands airport?
2.	What was the cost of each, and what was the total cost including installation?
3.	From whom were the iron firemen purchased and by whom were they installed?
4.	Have there been any complaints with regard to the efficiency of these iron firemen?


INTERNMENTS-CAMILLIEN HOUDE
Mr. LACOMBE:: 1.	Has the Minister of Justice received copies of resolutions adopted by municipal councils in the province of Quebec requesting the release of Mr. Camillien Houd'e from the internment camp?
2.	If so, what municipal councils have passed such resolutions and forwarded copies to the Minister of Justice?
3.	How many of such councils have sent copies to the Minister of Justice?
4.	Has the Minister of Justice received similar requests or resolutions from other public bodies in the province of Quebec?
5.	If so, what are the names of these public bodies, and what is the total number?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: For a copy of all letters, agreements, telegrams and any other documents in the possession of the Department of Agriculture, regarding the subsidies paid to the Trenton Cold Storage Limited, Trenton, Ontario, since 1939.



CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD-MARKETING OF

[Stage Direction]
1943-44 crop
Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: For a copy of all correspondence, memoranda and other documents received from, the advisory committee to the wheat board, agricultural and cooperative organizations with reference to the marketing of the 1943-44 crop.


James Angus MacKinnon: Mr. Speaker, I assume that this motion refers to correspondence, memoranda and other documents addressed by the organizations mentioned to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I have no objection to the passing of the motion subject to the withholding of any confidential or privileged documents.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Federal District Commission Act, 1927, by the authorization of payment to the federal district commission out of the consolidated revenue fund of a sum of $200,000 a year for a period of ten years from the first day of April, 1943.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.
Thomas Langton Church: May I ask if there will be enough money in this appropriation to clean up the sidewalks around parliament hill, which are in a most dangerous condition? It is disgraceful in weather like this; someone will be killed. The matter is urgent and I am entitled to a reply.


Mr. SPEAKER:: The motion is not
debatable.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I suggest that the question of the hon. member for Broadview is not in order, Mr. Speaker, either on the orders of the day, or on this resolution.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. DANIEL McIVOR (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a question of privilege. We who have had the good fortune to be born in Ireland are mighty proud to-day of the way in which Irishmen are conducting themselves in this great war. We have two reasons to be proud. First General Anderson, General Alexander and General Montgomery have stopped the German Rommel in his tracks. We are also proud that the young men of northern Ireland in 1941 enlisted one hundred per cent in the armed services, so that there is a greater dearth of farm hands in northern Ireland than there is even in Canada. An Irish soldier in Africa received a letter from his wife stating that there was no possibility of getting any men to dig the garden. Fie wrote back, "Never mind, the guns are buried there." This letter was censored. Very soon a lorry full of soldiers arrived to dig the garden from end to end, so that all the wife had to do was to plant the spuds.
To-day we pay honour to the splendid successors of Wellington and Kitchener, Lord Roberts and Lord French. We wish Montgomery godspeed and a splendid victory over Hitler.
IMr. Wright.]

Housing in Toronto



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, I understand that
the government has reached some decision with respect to the Easter recess. Is the Prime Minister in a position to-day to communicate the government's decision to the house?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, the government proposes to have a fortnight's adjournment at Easter, subject to one reservation, which is that sufficient progress shall have been made with certain measures which are on the order paper to-day to enable us to take the fortnight at Easter.
There will be an adjournment for certain from April 21 until May 3. The 21st is the Wednesday preceding Good Friday. However, if the government feels justified in taking a few extra days, provided that we have made sufficient progress we would adjourn on Friday the 16th. That would mean that hon. members would get an additional five days at a sacrifice of two and a half sitting days. I hope it may be possible to have the fortnight's adjournment.



CANADIAN FORCES


Mr. J. SASSEVILLE ROY (Gaspe):: In Hansard of March 15, at page 1231 there is a question under my name of which the last part of the first paragraph reads: "and where are their barracks in Ottawa?" Preceding that should be inserted the words, "and who are stationed in Ottawa."



WHEAT AND COARSE GRAINS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: I should like to direct the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to a report in the western press which I hold in my hand. It is dated March 13 and is headed "Plan to Give Farmers Wheat Rise Benefit". It states that before. Mr. Mclvor, chairman of the wheat board, came to Ottawa he conferred with members of the Winnipeg grain exchange with respect to the increased prices
of grain, and that he was taking the matter up with the minister when he came to Ottawa. The statement adds that it is expected that the minister will shortly issue a statement dealing with coarse grain and perhaps with wheat, that is, setting out the plan to give an advance to the farmers. Will the minister tell us when he can make that statement?


James Angus MacKinnon: Mr. Speaker, this subject and kindred matters referred to by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle have been under consideration by members of the cabinet and the Canadian Wheat Board. I cannot say at the moment just when I shall be able to make a statement. As hon. members know, there has been a regrettable and unavoidable delay in these discussions, but just as soon as possible a statement will be made to the house.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: An
order for return on housing was passed by the house on February 8, concerning the Department of Finance and the Department of Munitions and Supply. The return has not yet been brought down and I ask when we may expect it. A meeting in Massey Hall, Toronto, has been called for to-night in connection with housing and I should like to have the information asked for in the return. I do not like to move the adjournment of the house but I think I would be quite justified in doing so owing to the delay or inability of the two ministers to furnish this information or the failure to give a statement in the budget. I think I am entitled to receive it. The situation is grave, and if I do not get an answer I shall move the adjournment of the house.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The housing situation in Toronto has been under study more or less continuously for some months by the Department of Munitions and Supply and by the real estate administrator of the wartime prices and trade board. Until quite recently there was a difference of opinion within the government of the city of Toronto as to whether housing was needed, but within the last two or three weeks a unanimous request has come from the city government for housing. Since then new surveys have been made by both Wartime Housing and the real estate administrator and it has been found that the situa-
1326	COMMONS
The Budget-Mr. Ross (Moose Jaw)
tion in Toronto is not so acute as to bring it within the purview of Wartime Housing Limited. The decision is that the situation in Toronto is not sufficiently grave to warrant action with respect to housing at this time.



DEFENCE OF CANADA REGULATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. W. NOSEWORTHY (York South):: As a member of the committee on the defence of Canada regulations, I should like to know from the Minister of Justice when and by whom that committee is to be called together.
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice):	I am not a member of the committee. I understand it is the privilege of anyone who is a member of that committee to cause it to be called at any time, with notice.



E. B. EDDY COMPANY REPORT AS TO CLOSING OF NEWSPRINT BRANCH AT HULL

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. RODOLPHE LEDUC (Wright):: Recently in the Ottawa press I read a report that the newsprint branch of the E. B. Eddy Company of Hull had been closed. Could the Minister of Labour tell me what has been done to take care of those who had been employed in that branch?


Thomas Vien: This is a question of the kind which I stated the other day should not be asked on the orders of the day.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, March 15, consideration of the motion of Hon. J. L. Ilsley (Minister of Finance) that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair for the house to go into committee of ways and means, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Blackmore, and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Coldwell.
Mr. J. G. ROSS (Moose Jaw):: Mr. Speaker, I hope that you and the house will bear with
me this afternoon, because I am afraid my voice has been affected somewhat by a chill received from the terrible shortage of fuel which was brought to our attention yesterday in the house.
May I first of all congratulate the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) upon the budget he has brought down this year. It is a budget which shows a great deal of courage and demonstrates that the minister and the government are well aware of the part they have to play in this war and are willing to do everything possible in the war to help our allies.
Speaking in this chamber a few weeks ago I mentioned the need of a plan for agriculture of five years or two years after the war. I did not mention that plan simply with a view of putting money into the pockets of the farmers of Canada, but because I believed that in the very near future the united nations would be sorely in need of food for human consumption and feed for live stock. North America must be relied upon to produce the needed supplies. Anything which can be produced in the Argentine or Australia cannot reach the European theatre of war, because of lack of transportation or because it may be needed in the Pacific zone.
The governments of Canada and United States and most of the people of both countries are viewing with a good deal of satisfaction what they think are huge surpluses of grain on the North American continent, not realizing that these stock piles of grain are being used up faster than they can be replenished.
I hold in my hand the best available estimates of the bureau of statistics of the grain position of the United States and Canada for wheat, corn, oats, barley and rye, projected until July 1, 1944 for the United States and July 31, 1944 for Canada. If the housi will give permission I should like to place these on Hansard in order that people may see exactly what the stock piles are and the projected amounts until that date.


Thomas Vien: With the unanimous consent of the house.


John Gordon Ross: The tables are as follows:

The Budget-Mr. Ross (Moose Jaw)
Canada's Grain Supplies
Crop year 1941-42
Carryover, July 31, 1941	
Production, 1941	
Total supply	
Total disappearance	
Carryover, July 31, 1942	
Crop year 1942-43
Carryover, July 31, 1942	
Production, 1942	
Total supply	
Total disappearance	
Estimated carryover, July 31, 1943
Crop year 1943-44 (estimated)
Carryover, July 31, 1943	
Production, 1943	
Total supply	
Total disappearance	
Carryover, July 31, 1944	
Note:
Wheat Oats Barley Rye Total (Millions of bushels)
480	42	11	5	538312	305	111	12	740792	347	122	17	1,278368	319	110	14	811424	28	12	3	467424	28	12	3	467593	652	259	25	1,5291,017	680	271	28	1,996345	483	155	13	996672	197	116	15	1,000672	197	116	15	1,000318	477	186	12	993990	674	302	27	_ 1,993370	520	180	16	1,086620	154	122	11	907- -	-	=	*(1)	In connection with the 1942-43 figures some allowance should be made for the possibility of further reduction in the 1942 harvest because of unharvested acreage.(2)	In the 1943-44 estimates production has been calculated on the basis of average yields on the acreage goals set for 1943 while liberal allowance has been made for feeding to animals and exports to the United States.
United States Grain Supplies
Crop year 1942-43	Wheat	Corn	Oats Barley (Millions of bushels)	Rye	TotalCarryover, July 1, 1942	
Production, 1942	
633	525	194	81	31	1,464
981	3,175	1,359	426	57	5,998Estimated imports	
2	45	25	15	' 87Total supply	
1,616	3,700	1,598	532	103	7,549Total disappearance	
1,000	3,160	1,404	451	53	6,068-	- i *	- .1	-	-	Carryover, June 30, 1943...	
616	540	194	81	50	1,481Crop year 1943-44 (estimated)	!	Carryover, July 1, 1943	
Production, 1943	
616	540	194	81	50	1,481
850	2,828	1,174	392	40	5,284Estimated imports	
5	60	23	10	' 98Total supply	
1,471	3,368	1,428	496	100	6,863Total disappearance	
950	3,202	1,278	446	57	5,933Carryover, June 30, 1944...	
521	166	150	50	43	930Note:	(1) In 1942-43 allowance has been made for record size feeding of wheat to substantial imports of oats and barley from Canada.	live stock and for	(2)	In the estimates for 1943-44 production is based on yields on the basis of the average of the past five years, but no allowance has been made for the increase in acreage to corn and wheat which might result from the recent measures which permit over-planting in both crops in 1943.(3)	In 1943-44 a high rate of wheat feeding and imports of oats and barley from Canada has been allowed for.1328	COMMONS
The Budget-Mr. Ross (Moose Jaw)
These figures may seem rather impressive to some, but to me they foretell a shortage of grain on the North American continent within fifteen to eighteen months. I have stated consistently in this house, since the beginning of the war, that all the wheat that could be grown in Canada would be needed and needed badly before the war was over. Let me say again that there will be a shortage of wheat in Canada and on this continent within less than two years. I believe 1942 will go down in history as the banner year on this continent- for all farm products, but regardless of these figures, that entire grain surplus will have been used up by 1944 and we shall be eating heavily into the carry-over. The farmers of the United States and Canada have been asked to produce in 1943 some hundreds of millions more dozen eggs than in 1942, about three billion pounds more milk, five million more sheep, seven million more cattle, and forty-two and a half million more hogs. Under ordinary circumstances this would mean an additional one billion bushels of grain for feed, but these are not ordinary circumstances. To-day the continent of North America is short more than two million tons of high protein concentrates, and that deficiency must be made up by the feeding of additional-grain, which will mean the addition of at least two hundred million bushels to the figures I have already mentioned. Figure it any way you like; in less than two years we shall land up without sufficient food in North America.
What of other foods? Again we set an alltime record of abundance in 1942; yet months before another harvest and even before some of the crops are sown they are beginning in the United States to ration peas, beans, dried fruits, canned fruits and vegetables, in spite of the fact that the crop of peas and beans in the United States this year was double the average. We in Canada took away from the west coast some twenty-five thousand Japanese who had been employed in fishing or in the production of fruits and vegetables; and just in passing may I tell the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) that a few of them cut wood out near Vancouver. The government of the United States moved some 150,000 Japanese away from the west coast, practically all of whom had been engaged in the production of fruits and vegetables. In addition many thousands of people on this continent who were carrying on market gardening to some extent have now gone into war industries, so that to-day instead of producing food they are purchasing it.
Let me say again, Mr. Speaker, that we should establish dryers and storage facilities for dried fruits and vegetables in every province of this dominion. There are strategic
positions, I do not doubt, in every province. Let me suggest that in the province of Saskatchewan one plant be established, perhaps at the Estevan coal fields, and another at Lloydminster, where there is natural gas. In Alberta, plants might be established at Medicine Hat and Edmonton. The production of these small fruits and vegetables will require no additional man-power. All that will be required is a guaranteed price f.o.b. cars in each province; and the women and children, the old men and women on the farms, in the villages and towns, will produce the goods. Dried fruits and vegetables, and other dried food products, will require only about one-tenth the tonnage that would be required to take overseas an equivalent amount of fresh fruits, vegetables, and so on. They can be used very readily for feeding the people of Europe. I will admit that it is a good thing to have a great deal of grain to send over there, but that grain also will have to be processed to a large extent before it leaves this country, because I question very much whether cities like Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Antwerp, Hamburg and similar places will have any mills left standing by the time we invade the continent of Europe.
In addition to the provision of food I suggest that the governments of Canada and the United States get together and arrange to set prices for farm products; that each should accept financial responsibility commensurate with its ability, and supply our allies with needed foodstuffs, at the same time pooling our supplies on this continent, with equal rations on both sides of the border and the elimination of the border altogether as far as foodstuffs are concerned. Food has been the problem of the ages. Until some three hundred years ago the population of the world was about what it had been for a thousand yearn, less than five hundred million people, all of whom were in constant dread of starvation. About that time men began to use their brains in an endeavour to increase the production of foodstuffs and we had the beginning of a scientific agricultural movement. With the use of fertilizer and the improvement of domestic animals we had an increase in the production of foodstuffs, and at the same time an increase in the population of the world. By the end of the eighteenth century the world's population had increased to about one billion, and at that time most of the thinking people of the world agreed with Thomas Robert Malthus in the great book he wrote to prove that the human population increased faster than the production of food supplies, and that misery, want, starvation and war were the inevitable consequences. Then began the machine age,

The Budget-Mr. Ross (Moose Jaw)
the capitalistic system, so much maligned to-day by people who think loosely; the development of foodstuffs by the application of science and invention to agriculture; the use of machinery on the farm; careful development of farm animals for the production of meat, milk, fats and wool; the storing of food in order to carry the surplus of a bountiful period over to one of scarcity; the refrigeration of food; the canning industry; the transport system which transfers surpluses to areas of scarcity. These various developments under that system have brought the world to an era of plenty, in which starvation no longer faces the people but in which the problem is said to be one of too much food. The problem of the world to-day is one of the balancing of distribution of an abundance brought about not by outworn and outdated monetary theory, not by a planned economy of a few supermen and experts, but by the gradual evolution of democratic ideas, called by some the capitalistic system. My hon. friends of the Social Credit group would wreck the whole thing by issuing worthless paper money.


Mr. HANSELL:: It's a lie.


John Gordon Ross: Mr. Speaker, I ask the hon. member to withdraw that statement.


Thomas Vien: Did I understand the hon. gentleman to say "it is a lie"?


Ernest George Hansell: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I did, and if I must withdraw I withdraw, but I am saying to the hon. member that what he says is not according to the facts.


Thomas Vien: I think the hon. member
will have to withdraw without reservation.


Ernest George Hansell: I will withdraw my statement without reservation in respect to the term "lie", but I say that the hon. gentleman is not stating the truth. That is all there is to it. I suggest he should withdraw his statement; it is not true.


Thomas Vien: The hon. gentleman of course knows that what he is now stating is just an accentuation of the first statement. He must withdraw without reservation.


Ernest George Hansell: If that is your ruling, Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw. We still have some men to speak in the debate and we can correct the hon. gentleman's statement then.


John Gordon Ross: The Social Credit party always have plenty of members who can speak in the debate, and they can state their own opinions, just as I am stating mine at the moment. My opinion is the truth to me; my hon. friend's opinion may be the truth to him.
I said that the Social Credit party would wreck this system by printing worthless money. The Cooperative Commonwealth Federation would cast aside the progress of ages and do away with the system that has brought all these benefits to mankind, because that system appears to be a little out of balance at the moment, has developed some minor defects. There in that corner sits the main reactionary group in the House of Commons. They would cast away all these benefits and take us back a thousand years.
I do not say these things to be unkind, as the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Hansell) thought. I grant on the part of hon. members of the Social Credit party and the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation a sincere desire, as it is ours, to help the lot of mankind. But I submit that their theories are wrong. Along with many other people in this country I have perhaps gone through the throes of their loose thinking since 1930, in a sincere endeavour to explain the paradox of scarcity amidst plenty. One must endeavour to propose a remedy when one questions the sincere theories of others in this house. Let us therefore look to see where the flaw in the present system is. Let us go back to the start of this great acceleration of production. Before the machine age, before the steam engine was invented, the labour of at least four or five men on the farm was necessary to maintain themselves and one man in a city. At that time more than four-fifths of man's needs came from the farm. Then the machine age began, bringing greater demands for those things that can stand heavy pressure and hard use. And part of the production of the farm had to give way to the production of the mines. At this time one man's labour on the farm maintained him and one man in the city. Then came the full effect of the machine age, the use of science in both industry and agriculture. One man on the farm provided abundance for himself and nine men in the city. The product of the oil well, the mine and the forest advanced to the point where only one-third of man's needs came from the farm. Motive power changed from the horse, and the consequent use of millions of acres for feed, to coal, gasoline and electricity. Nature in her wisdom throughout millions of years has stored up the products of the farm and the forest in the oil well and the mine. It can therefore be urged that for a period at least man's labour can get four to five times the tonnage from the mine, the oil well or the forest than can be got annually from the farms. Therefore why waste labour on the farm? Is it not a good thing to produce more with less labour?
1330	COMMONS
The Budget-Mr. Ross (Moose Jaw)
But labour is also wasted when it is available but not used. That waste is called unemployment. The most uneconomic period in the world's history preceded this war in what we call the great depression. What was the cause of it? In my opinion it was largely a loss of balance between agriculture and industry. Industry turned for its raw materials and its power to oil wells, mines and forests. Agriculture could no longer sell sufficient of its products to industry, and therefore farm products began to pile up in surpluses. Industry could no longer sell its products because the farmer could not purchase them. Industry declined and farm products piled higher. The products of industry piled up. Men were laid off by industry and were out of work. Machines were idle, and we had want in a land of plenty. That was the condition because the balance between industry and agriculture was gone. It can be corrected, because most of the raw materials taken from the mines and the oil wells are simply annual farm crops in a different form, but still containing the same ingredients which were placed in the ground by nature many years ago.
Can these raw materials be purchased by industry from the farmers? Largely they can. Industry and agriculture are natural partners, because when agriculture loses its markets industry suffers from a lack of employment for its thousands of men. Balance the two and you correct the evils of both. The time will come when most of the raw materials for industry will be obtained annually from the farms, and part of the processing will take place on the farms.
What can we in the house do to further these thoughts? When we reach the agricultural estimates it is my intention to move an amendment which I hope the government will see fit to accept. The purport of my amendment will be that the government appropriate $500,000 a year for agricultural research; that that research be carried on in the centre of the greatest agricultural section of the country; that if possible the contribution be matched by an amount of $50,000 to $100,000 a year from each of the nine provinces; that the Canadian Manufacturers' Association be asked to contribute $200,000 a year, as industry's share. May I suggest here that any Canadian industry should be allowed to donate, as a legitimate expense, a reasonable amount to a fund to endow this research.
Let me take four agricultural products, to illustrate what can be done. First of all, I shall discuss the question as it relates to

wheat. For my purposes, wheat will be broken down into three component parts, namely, the starch, the protein or gluten, and the germ. I shall discuss starch, first, in detail.
Starch has been imported into Canada- corn starch, starch from tapioca, sago and potatoes. In Canada we have endeavoured to produce some corn starch and some, potato starch. None of these is as good an edible starch as is that produced from wheat. Wheat starch demands a higher price in the textile market than does any other. It is used in the making of paper boxes, soap, perfumes, fireworks, asbestos, yeast, twine and cordage, window shades, wood veneers, glue, and drycell batteries. Pound for pound wheat starches produce syrup or glucose identical in yield to com starch. This syrup or glucose is used as an industrial sweetener in jams and canned fruits, and for table use.
The difference between the flour produced in eastern Canada, known as cake and pastry flour, and that produced from western wheat, is the percentage of protein and starch in the flour. On the west coast we have been importing cake and pastry flours to some extent. Sometimes we have imported them into eastern Canada.. The very same kind of flours can be made by taking -wheat starch out of our western wheat, and adding it to the quantity of starch in high grade flours. Just as good, in fact better, cake and pastry flours can be made in this way.
There has been a great deal of talk about power alcohol in Canada. Both alcohol and glycol can be made from wheat starch, and can be economically transformed into butadiene, the major component of synthetic rubber. A new process of fermentation is now reaching a state of perfection which will produce alcohol and butylene-glycol, which can be transformed into butadiene more economically than that which is made from petroleum.
Wheat protein is used for many things. First of all, let me deal with gluten concentrate. In the past many countries bought a certain amount of Canadian wheat in order to strengthen their flour, and to increase the size of the loaf of bread. The reason for that was that Canadian wheat contained a larger amount of gluten. This gluten can be taken out of Canadian wheat, and the other parts of the wheat used in this country or others. The gluten concentrate can be shipped to these other countries to build up a new industry and a new outlet for the agricultural products of Canada.
Another commodity which prior to the war was made in Japan out of Canadian wheat

The Budget-Mr. Ross (Moose Jaw)
was called sodium-glutemate. Sodium-glute-mate was made from a secret process in Japan, and shipped to every other country. The fact is, however, .that it came from Canadian wheat. It is a flavouring compound which produces a meaty flavour in soups, sauces, biscuits and meat-like concentrates, meat extracts and the like. It, too, can be made in this country.
Then, gluten as a plastic covers the field of artificial fibres, wool substitutes, rayons, and the new and improved methods of processing nylon.
I come now to plastics. Depending on price and combination with other chemicals, plastics can be used to make buttons,, ornamental coverings, for the treatment of plywood, as plastic glues, protective coverings instead of oil paints, and in medicine for protective coverings for pills, capsules, et cetera, as an easily digestible protector.
Wheat gluten can be processed to be used instead of chicle in the manufacture of chewing gum.
Wheat germ is separated mechanically from the wheat in this country, but wheat germ oil is not extracted here. We import from other countries large quantities of germ oil which is processed from Canadian wheat. This wheat germ oil is the most concentrated form known of vitamin E, which is used for medicinal purposes to prevent abortion and to increase fertility in all forms of life. Wheat germ oil is an excellent means of preventing rancidity in various types of foods such as powdered milk, powdered eggs, butter, margarine, shortening or any of the edible oils. It takes only one-half of one per cent of added wheat germ oil to protect these products from rancidity for long periods.
Wheat chaff and wheat bran can be used for the purpose of manufacturing furfurol, which is the basis of a large group of plastic materials. It is used in the refining of oil and in the flotation process in the mining industry. It can also be produced from oat hulls. In passing, let me say that it is in large production in the United States to-day. As a matter of fact one of the large Quaker Oats mills in the United States is making furfurol from oat hulls. This is a primary product, and the highly advertised Quaker Oats are a secondary product of that mill.
Furfurol is used as a binder in plastics, for the manufacture of fibre-board, pressed woods, and the insulating and building materials so badly needed in the heart of the wheat country where lumber is so scarce. As a matter of fact, there is to-day- in the once great timber producing state of Minnesota a company making a wood-like product for
building materials from furfurol and wheat-straw wastes. Containers of paper-like substance used for the distribution of milk and other perishable products can be made from the now discarded wheat straw and chaff. Today furfurol is bought in tank carlots and used as a germicide, a fungicide, a wood preservative, an improver of tobacco flavour, a solvent for dyes and leather dressings, and for plastics and nitrocellulose. So much for wheat.
Flax has been grown in Canada for many years. It contains about forty per cent oil, the remainder being a high protein feed of about thirty six to thirty nine per cent protein. Linseed oil which is manufactured from flax seed is used in paints, varnishes and enamels as well as in the manufacture of linoleum, oilcloth and gasproof clothing. On account of war conditions industrialists in Canada have learned to process a quick-drying oil from flax to take the place of tung oil or Chinawood oil, of which we used to import several million pounds from China prior to the war. It is replacing perilla oil which we used to import for the same purposes from Japan, and octicica oil, which we imported from Brazil. The replacing of these importations will be continued after the war. Within the past few weeks scientists in Canada and the United States have been able to perfect a process for deodorizing, stabilizing and hardening linseed oils in order to produce an acceptable domestic shortening.
Linseed oil also enters into the manufacture of a type of synthetic rubber known as nore-pal. This substance is in production, but I am afraid that at the moment the price factor is against it. Linseed oil is also used in the manufacture of the alkyd type of plastics. These are the durable, heavy duty plastics intended for long-wearing uses to replace wood and metal finishes, eliminating the need of refinishing or refreshing finishes, such as are used in pullman cars, houses, etcetera. So much for flax. I shall deal with the proteins later when I take up sunflower seed oil.
This country has ordinarily imported all of its vegetable oils for edible purposes and fifty per cent of its oils for non-comestible purposes, and therefore a vast new field is opened up in this connection for both agriculture and industry. Sunflower seed produces from twenty-five to thirty per cent of oil, depending upon the variety. The oil is an excellent edible oil, fully equal and in many ways superior to soybean oil, cottonseed oil and corn oil. For many purposes it is more adaptable than many of these oils. Sunflower
1332	COMMONS
The Budget-Mr. Ross (Moose Jaw)
seed oil is recognized as being by far the most available source of edible vegetable oil for Canadians.
In addition to its edible properties, the oil can be used in the manufacture of soap, as a textile lubricant, for sulphonation purposes in dyeing, in the leather and tanning industry, as a plasticizer in plastics and for certain types of lubrication. If the production of domestic shortening from sunflower oil and linseed oil is developed in Canada, this country can be entirely independent in the matter of edible vegetable oils, and there would be no need of further importations from any country in the world. I shall not give the exact quantity, but last year we imported several million pounds of sunflower seed oil from the Argentine with an unnecessary risk and use of bottoms. This product could have been produced in this country.
I speak with some experience in this matter. Sunflower seed is the Canadian counterpart of the soybean, the wonder bean of the United States. Every article that can be made in the United States from the soybean can be made in Canada from either sunflower seed or flax seed. Our climate is much more adaptable to the growing of these two crops. After the oil is compressed from flax seed and sunflower seed, there is left a protein meal of high feed value. Sunflower hulls can be used for the production of furfurol, which I have mentioned already.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member's time has expired.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Go ahead.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go on.
Some hon. members: No.


John Gordon Ross: Will hon. members give their consent?


Thomas Vien: There is objection.


An hon. MEMBER:: Time.


Thomas Vien: Objection is taken.


John Gordon Ross: Do my hon.
friends object?


Mr. NICHOLSON:: The hon. member
appears to have his speech on paper.


John Gordon Ross: I needed considerable notes to keep track of the different items.


Thomas Vien: There is objection taken; there is not unanimous consent.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I had hoped that hon. gentlemen might withdraw their objection. This is a most interesting
subject. Perhaps I am not without some selfinterest because I hope to speak to-morrow and I may want five minutes more myself. I had hoped that hon. members might withdraw their objection and let the hon. member proceed.


An hon. MEMBER:: No.


Thomas Vien: Do I understand that there is no objection to the hon. member continuing?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I think the hon. gentleman has occupied his full time, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. J. G. DIEFENBAKER (Lake Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I should very much like to have heard the hon. member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Ross) complete his address. One thing I noted was that when he reached that part of his speech which was replete with scientific and technical terms there were very few interruptions.
To come now to the budget, it is not my intention to devote myself to an examination of the financial side of the minister's proposals but I should like to deal generally with one or two matters which I wish to bring to the attention of the house.
As I listened to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) to-day announcing another victory loan campaign, it indicated to me that during the next year the war effort of this dominion is to be extended beyond that of the past year. At least the people of Canada are to be asked to contribute more in this loan than ever before. According to the minister, the borrowing needs of the dominion during the past year were $2,748,000,000, and the people of Canada will be asked in the new loan to contribute in cash $1,100,000,000. There has been a trend during the past year toward an expansion of borrowings from the Bank of Canada and the chartered banks, amounting in all to $983,000,000. If that trend is not stopped, it must inevitably lead to a degree of inflation that we have not heretofore had.
The people of Canada will respond to the call of the Minister of Finance for larger and larger contributions, provided that he gives on behalf of the government the assurance that where there is wasteful expenditure it shall be stopped; for if there is one thing that the people demand and have a right to demand, it is that waste shall not become a virtue in any department of government. A few years ago when budgets were brought before parliament the aim was to lower taxes, to reduce the public debt, and to balance the budget. These are no longer the aims of ministers of finance. The people of Canada are willing to make sacrifices, but the government at the earliest possible opportunity should give to

The Budget-Mr. Diejenbaker
the Canadian people the assurance that there will be no wasteful expenditure and in addition should do its part to ensure that civil servants who can give evidence to this end should be called before the public accounts committee and given an opportunity of placing their views and suggestions before it. While we are increasing the amount of our expenditures in 1943, the year when we anticipate our armies will go on the offensive, many people in Canada have fallen within recent months into a lethargy, a passivity, that does not bode well for the war effort. They need to be told that the few successes we have had are but the beginning of the march to final victory. That can be done only by the ministers of the crown, assisted by the members of this house.
There was some reference by the minister to post-war trade and the necessity of making at this time arrangements in that regard with other nations. Parliament is concerned primarily with the winning of the war and with the measures necessary to that end. That must, of course, be the primary objective. Parliament to-day is concerned with post-war economic reconstruction within Canada. But there is another subject which I think parliament should have an opportunity of debating in this house, namely, international reconstruction after the war. The visit of the Right Hon. Anthony Eden to Washington at the present time has, according to press dispatches, for one of its purposes the securing of a united front among the united nations on after-the-war international problems. When Mr. Eden visits Ottawa the government will have an opportunity to place before him Canada's attitude in regard to international and political post-war problems. No longer can Canada stay in the position of isolationism, shall I call it benevolent isolationism, such as existed before the war, for with the air development that has taken place during the past three years Canada is on the air highways of the world. Canada, with its line of airports between Edmonton and White Horse, is placed in the geopolitical centre of the world, and her world position is more important than ever before. After the war no place on earth will be more distant than fifty hours' flying from any other place, and we must consider at this time Canada's relation to the post-war world in the matter of air development. It is things like these that might engender ill feeling between nations after the war unless arrangements are made beforehand.
Take, for instance, the production of cargocarrying aeroplanes. The United States is producing them at a rate unequalled anywhere else in the world. She is also producing aircraft at the rate of 10,000 a month, as
compared with Britain's 2,500, Germany's 2,500, and Japan's 500 to 1,000. When the war is over and aircraft transportation becomes of first consequence, one of the united nations will have practically all the cargo-carrying planes. Something should be done now to assure all of the united nations of a reasonable share in the distribution of these cargocarrying planes after the war. As far as Canada is concerned, her aircraft production cannot be used for cargo-carrying purposes, and she will be dependent therefore on the other united nations. When the war is over, the freedom of the skyways may well during the next one hundred years be as important as the freedom of the seas has been in the past three hundred years. We should now be in a position to say whether, when the war is over, the many airports in the dominion and the air schools operated by private companies are to be returned to the government, whether Canada's position in this new world of air development shall be a state-owned air policy or a private ownership air policy.
I come now to the international sphere. In the British parliament opportunity is given on many occasions to hon. members to discuss the international situation as well as the relationships between the various component parts of the empire. A similar opportunity should be given to this parliament before the visit of Mr. Eden, so that the government will have before it the views of the people of Canada as secured from their representatives in parliament. In the international sphere the contribution of the people of Canada to the war effort has made this country a world power. Her sacrifices in the first world war gave her an empire and a world status. Canada to-day, the fourth trading nation in the world, must necessarily, by reason of her new national and international position, undertake after the war greater responsibilities in the new world of inter-empire and international relationships. I believe that, when the war is over, the United Kingdom should not be permitted any longer to assume the entire defence of the empire, if armaments must be maintained. Canada after the war will have great importance as a reservoir of food for many nations. With an enhanced position go increased responsibilities. Canada's parliament should declare now that Canada supports the declarations of empire statesmen that the axis nations shall be prevented from ever again plunging the world into war; that Canada supports the other united nations in assuring punishment to the axis criminals; more than that, because words without actions will mean little, that Canada will contribute her share to the measures necessary to achieve

The Budget-Mr. Diejenbaker
those aims, namely the establishment of a world court and an international police force. I repeat that Canada to-day, by reason of her contribution in this war, has achieved an importance which makes it necessary for her to express her viewpoint among the united nations. I believe that Canada's parliament, without neglecting the work of mobilizing for victory, should have an opportunity to express its views at this time, not after the war, on such questions as the establishment of a world monetary stabilization institution, and l united nations tariff board to be set up with a view to preventing a recurrence of international trade jealousies and disputes after the war.
I believe, too, that Canada's parliament, without in any way detracting from her efforts to mobilize this nation for war, should be concerned as well, as one of the great nations constituting the united nations, with the new world political organization which has to come and which will come, in order to assure peace in the world. Canada can give leadership in determining now whether the nations of the world shall return to the nationalism which characterized many of them before the war, whether a new or better league of nations shall be set up and constituted, or whether there shall be a world federation of the united nations wherein each shall surrender a portion of its sovereignty.
These matters are important to-day. They are so important that statesmen in various parts of the empire are meeting to consider them. Mr. Eden has come to America to discuss with the United States, among other problems, these very questions. Our purpose should be, with and alongside of Britain to cooperate with the United States, doing everything we can to assure, before the end of the war, agreements among the united nations which will contribute to the future peace and welfare of the world. A reading of Lloyd George's "Memoirs" shows that if the representatives of the allied nations in the last war had been able to meet and exchange their ideas on international post-war problems before they met at Versailles, many of the difficulties which resulted in cleavages among the allies would have been avoided and many of the troubles which subsequently arose would have been prevented.
Three contributions which Canada is making to the war effort might be mentioned. The first is the production of munitions and ships; the second, the contribution of man-power, to assure supplies of man-power not only for the armed forces but for industry and agriculture; the third, food supplies or agricultural production. I will not deal to-day with the 
first named, because an opportunity will be given to discuss it when the war appropriation bill is before the house. I intend in the time at my disposal to deal first with the matter of man-power, and second, if sufficient time remains, with the matter of agricultural production.
In spite of the fact that one hon. member after another has raised the question on manpower in this house, the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell), who is charged with the responsibility of administration in connection with this problem, has not yet seen fit to rise in his place and tell parliament and the country just what the plans of his department are. Last night he gave us some indication, but I cannot refer to that, because it is in another debate. He did not answer the suggestions which were made that selective service, as it is being practised, has fallen down.


Mr. MITCHELL:: I had only ten minutes.


John George Diefenbaker: We have not been able to get any answer. For some reason we cannot get an authoritative declaration on this subject of man-power. Take, for instance, lumber production in Canada, which has fallen away below the war needs of this nation, solely because the necessary man-power has not been allocated to the work. In 1941 the production in this country was over five billion feet; in 1942 it was less than four billion feet, and the demands for defence purposes and other needs total ten billion feet. According to one of Canada's outstanding writers, this country cannot produce to-day beyond 25 per cent of the minimum requirements of lumber for the railways. The difficulty lies in the allocation of man-power rather than in shortage of man-power. The minister has had an opportunity to say what the government will do; for if 1943 is to be the year in which we move on the offensive, surely we have a right to know at this time what are the manpower plans. What allocation of man-power is to be made to industry, what allocation to the army? I will deal with the call-ups in a moment, but one circumstance is revealed in that connection, that during the past few months the needs of the army are not being met by the call-ups. Shortage of man-power? I do not think it is a shortage of man-power in Canada when we find some eight thousand employable people out of work in Winnipeg; I think it is a failure to carry into effect the principles that have been enunciated in orders in council, letters and directions.


Humphrey Mitchell: Where does my hon. friend get the figure of eight thousand employables?

The Budget-Mr. Diejenbaker


John George Diefenbaker: I cannot get any figures from the minister, it is true, but I took that figure from the press, the only way in which members of parliament can get any information about the man-power situation, and there never was any denial of its accuracy. I also obtained some figures from some of the pamphlets put out by the government. Why, Mr. Speaker, the pamphlet "Canada at War" in. its January and February issues told the story of man-power in the armed forces so graphically and showed that the situation had become so bad, that it exposed the government to criticism;, and if you look at the March issue you will see that the portion dealing with enlistments and call-ups has been omitted. The only conclusion which can be drawn is that too much information was being furnished with regard to man-power and the armed forces. On January 7 the shortage of man-power in industry was as follows:
Lumbering	 46,064
Coal mining	 2,621
Other mines	 2,406
Iron and steel	 21,728
Railways	 3,340
Construction	 13,352
That is the statement that was given on February 8 as to conditions prevailing on January 7. Do those conditions prevail today? If they do they indicate a complete break-down in the administration of selective service in this country.
May I now pass on to the matters of call-ups, under the National Resources Mobilization Act? It is most interesting to note what is recorded in this pamphlet "Canada at War," which reveals three conclusions. The first is that Canada is not getting the men who are being called up. At page 23 is shown the record of men requisitioned by the army, which between March 20 1941, and April 9, 1942, amounted to 56,390, of whom 55,250, or 97-9 per cent, were accepted for training. But what about the next period, from: May 15, to December 26, 1942? The men requisitioned numbered 94,000, of whom only 52,428, or 55-7 per cent were accepted. That must mean one of two things: either the selective service have no records as to the available pool of men and are calling up indiscriminately, whether men are in the services or not, or the number of defaulters is multiplying month by month. According to the records shown in "Canada at War" the number of defaulters is just under 100,000. The number must be a great deal larger than that; in fact, estimates up to 225,000 do not seem exaggerated. Is the army getting the required number of men by voluntary enlistment? Let
us look at the records. None is given in the March issue, but a comparison of the figures for January and' February would indicate that total enlistments in the army all over Canada in one month amounted to only 3,327 men.


Mr. RALSTON:: Does my hon. friend say that was for February?


John George Diefenbaker: No; 3,377 men enlisted. [DOT]


James Layton Ralston: For what month?


John George Diefenbaker: The month of
January.


James Layton Ralston: For what period?


John George Diefenbaker: Thirty-one days.


James Layton Ralston: I am afraid my hon. friend is wrong.


John George Diefenbaker: Then the record is wrong. I have in my hand a return brought down yesterday at the request, of the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser). Subtracting the number of men who are shown to be in the army as of January 31, 1943, from the number appearing in the last issue of "Canada at War" on December 31, 1942, you will find that the total enlistments during the month amounted to the figure I mentioned.


James Layton Ralston: If my hon. friend will permit me, he is making some sort of arithmetical calculation. I do not have them right at hand, but I can give him the exact figures of enlistments for January, February and March. He does not have to take the strength of the army on one date and deduct the strength of the army on another date. That does not necessarily show the enlistments. It must be borne in mind that men are sent overseas.


John George Diefenbaker: These records show that the number of men enlisted in the army up to the end of December was 433,876. The number of mem who enlisted in the army up to January 31 was 437,203. Taking the one from the other leaves the figure I have placed before the house. There cannot, be any different figures; those are the figures showing the enlistments.


James Layton Ralston: I could give a different figure.


John George Diefenbaker: Well, I should like it to be given. This session has been going on for several weeks now, and we have been asking for information. Several returns for which I have asked during the last, two and a
The Budget-Mr. Diejenbaker

half weeks still remain as orders for returns, and we are unable to get the information for which we are asking.


James Layton Ralston: As far as I know I have not been asked for information with regard to enlistments. I did not expect that I would make a statement with regard to the army, the enlistments and so on, until the war appropriation bill came up; I thought that was the proper place to give the information.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does the minister not think we should have the information before that bill is brought down?


James Layton Ralston: I am perfectly willing to give the information, but I do not propose to make three speeches on the subject.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Let us have the figures.


James Layton Ralston: The figures are available; all my hon. friend has to do is ask for them.


John George Diefenbaker: If the figures in "Canada at War" are correct, then the figures I have placed before the house are correct; but if the minister says the conclusions I have drawn are not correct, then the information being put out in "Canada at War" is not correct.


James Layton Ralston: I would say to my hon. friend that the enlistements for the thirty-one days of January were between 8,000 and 9,000.


John George Diefenbaker: That is not what the record shows.


James Layton Ralston: That is one record.


John George Diefenbaker: The figures are given by military districts for enlistments in the army between December 31, 1942, and January 31, 1943, and I shall read them. I shall leave out the figure for Quebec, because it indicates that there were eighty-nine fewer on January 31 than on December 31, so that there is obviously a mistake, but the other figures are as follows:
London	'	 271
Toronto	 748
Kingston	 100
Montreal	 39
Halifax	 614
Saint John	 161
Winnipeg	 358
Victoria	 415
Regina	 346
Calgary	 358
Those are the figures gained from a comparison of the records in the February issue of "Canada At War", and the, return that I mentioned, which was brought down the day I Mr. Diefenbaker.]
before yesterday. That is one phase that I think should be brought to the attention of the country, namely, in connection with callups. I raised the question the other day in regard to enlistments. It is only fair that in the calling up of men for service under the National Resources Mobilization Act there should be as nearly as possible equality between all parts of Canada. I can see no objection to that.


James Layton Ralston: Will my hon. friend permit me? I have the figures for January and February enlistments: January 11,631; February 8,927.


John George Diefenbaker: In the army?


James Layton Ralston: In the army.


John George Diefenbaker: Then the minister had better get in touch with the department of information and bring them up to date so that we can have correct information on the subject.


James Layton Ralston: I am giving what the figures really are.


Richard Burpee Hanson: (York-Sunbury): Then the information is being concealed from the public.


James Layton Ralston: It has been given to the public right straight along.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No, it has not. This is an official document.


John George Diefenbaker: In connection with the matter of call-ups, at page 22 of the February issue there is a table showing by military districts the total male population between the ages of nineteen and forty-five. ' The next columns show the enlistments, in the army, the air force and the navy. Then appears the number of "R" recruits enlisted. In order to arrive at a true picture in this matter there must be subtracted from the total available pool the number who have enlisted. When that is done it will be found that in one province 10-6 per cent of the available man-power is being called up, and it ranges from that percentage to 4-7 per cent. I cannot understand the reason why, in the enforcement of a law to ensure the defence of Canada within the territorial limits of Canada, or as extended by order in council to Newfoundland and Alaska, there should be any inequalities in the matter of call-up. The country has a right to an explanation in regard to that question. If there is one thing that can be accepted as a canon of administration it is this, that in order to achieve a united confederation, in the execution of such a measure of compulsory military service it is absolutely

The Budget-Mr. Diejenbaker
necessary that the call-up shall be as nearly as possible equal in all parts of Canada. I think the people of Canada should be told frankly by the government why it is that there is inequity and inequality in the call-up under this act. I am going to ask the minister when he speaks to deal with that phase of the situation.
What is being done toward enforcing the law? I have mentioned the question of evaders. What did the government do? The enforcement officers brought fewer than three hundred before the courts. The government has now sent out a letter by the Minister of Labour which amounts to an invitation to evasions of the provisions of the act. This seems a rather unusual statement. Here are a few items that go to establish the accuracy of it. In an interpretative letter sent out to the various boards in Canada they were advised as to how they were to interpret the plain law. The law says that the only men who are entitled to postponement in so far as agriculture is concerned are men who were bona fide engaged in farming on March 23, 1942. That was in order to prevent men from going back to the farms in order to evade service. But the Minister of Labour sent out an instruction as to how the boards are to interpret that. In the letter he says:
A person who may not have been employed in agriculture on March 23, 1942, but who has become engaged in agriculture since that time, and is shown to be essential to agriculture may be considered for postponement on application if the merits of the case are established.
In other words, a direction is given to the board not to interpret those regulations as the law reads and is to interpret them in a way that many constitute a complete evasion or a large measure of evasion of the provisions of the act.
Next, under the law, Doukhobors and the like are entitled to accept alternative service, for the duration of the war. A man who is called up for sendee in the army in Canada serves for the duration of the war, no matter whether he is a farmer or what he is. But what about the conscientious objector? This is what the letter says:
Application for leave should be invited from agricultural workers engaged in alternative service, and such applications should be given favourable consideration.
The law says they shall serve in alternative service; the department does not change the law, but it asks the boards throughout Canada deliberately to flout the law and interpret it in accordance with the desires of the Department of Labour. Is there any wonder that when this letter was sent out there were some
replies? I have tried to get all the replies from the various boards. I have not succeeded yet; I have had only two, one from British Columbia and one from Saskatchewan, both of which were sent to me by the Secretary of State. In both cases the boards are headed by judges, who are not asking to be told how to interpret the law. If the law is to be changed, let the regulations be changed; do not place the responsibility on a board to interpret the law contrary to its meaning. Mr. Justice Embury wrote from Regina on February 19, 1943, as follows:
With reference to your interpretative letter No. 1:

That is the interpretative letter sent out by the Department of Labour.
This, of course, must be taken with this reservation that our board shall not be required to be a consenting party to a deliberate and patent evasion and that what appears to be a clear fraud on the country shall not be recognized as a basis for consideration.
Yours very truly,
Mr. Justice J. I1'. L. Embury.
Mr. Justice Manson from British Columbia said this, again with reference to the interpretative letter:
I have seen a copy of the letter from the chairman of M division

That is Saskatchewan.
-to you, under date of the 19th instant. My board agrees with his comments.
Very truly yours,
Hon. Mr. Justice A. M. Manson.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What about New Brunswick?


John George Diefenbaker: Two weeks ago I asked for a return with respect to the other provinces. I have been able to get only two as of this date; so that I do not know what replies were received from the other provincial boards.
I suggest to the government that if the law is to be changed and agricultural workers are to be granted postponements, whether they started farming after March 19, 1942, that it be placed in the regulations. I again point out that in Great Britain there are no regulations dealing with man-power; the law is in a statute. It was in a statute at the time of the last war. It should be in a statute to-day, for it is onlj^ when it is in a statute that the rights of individuals and the rights of the state are completely protected.
Hon. ANGUS L. MACDONALD (Minister of National Defence for Naval Services): Mr. Speaker, it is now1 some ten months since the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Roy) raised in this house the question of sinkings in the
1338	COMMONS
The Budget-Mr. Macdonald (Kingston)
gulf and river St. Lawrence. At that time, in May of 1942, two ships had been sunk in the lower reaches of the river not far from Gaspe. My hon. friend raised certain questions in the house, and raised further questions in July-questions which. I believe from newspaper reports, were referred to by that gentleman known as Lord Haw Haw in Berlin on the very next night.
In one way or another, and at one time or another, through the summer, the autumn and the wiuter, certain newspapers and some members of this house, as well as other citizens in Canada, have returned to this question of sinkings. Some newspapers have demanded that the sinkings of ships should be made known immediately, in spite of the fact that that custom is not followed in any country I know of. But the whole matter has recently come into prominence because of a speech made in the Quebec legislature by the hon. Onesime Gagnon, a member of that legislature, formerly a member of this house, and also formerly a member of the Bennett administration.
Mr. Gagnon declared in a speech in the Quebec legislature that upwards of thirty ships were sunk in the St. Lawrence river and gulf last summer, and he alleged that the statement I had made to the effect that twenty was the correct number was incorrect. Mr. Gagnon went on to say that he took full responsibility for what he was saying, that he had the names of the ships and the dates on which they were sunk.
I have read the reports of Mr. Gagnon's speech as they appeared in many newspapers. I have read them as they appeared in the French newspapers Le Droit and L'Action Catkolique, and in the English newspapers Montreal Star, Montreal Gazette, Toronto Globe and Mail, Ottawa Journal and Ottawa Citizen. Every one of these newspapers, without exception, in their headlines featured the statement that thirty ships or more than thirty ships had been sunk, showing clearly that they regarded the statement as the kernel, the core and the heart of Mr. Gagnon's remarks.
Since Mr. Gagnon's statement was in direct contradiction of an earlier statement of mine, and since Mr. Gagnon stated he could produce the names of the ships and the dates on which they were sunk, I asked him to produce those names and dates. Mr. Gagnon has not replied to that challenge or request. He has not replied to it because he cannot reply to it, and because more than thirty ships, or thirty ships, were not sunk in the gulf and river St. Lawrence. Consequently he is unable to
fMr. A. L. Macdonald.]
produce, and those who speak for him are unable to produce, the names of any such thirty ships.
I made an offer to Mr. Gagnon to appoint a naval officer who would act with somebody appointed by Mr. Gagnon, and if necessary a third neutral person selected by the two, to investigate this question of sinkings. Mr. Gagnon has not seen fit to accept this offer either, though it was made some ten days ago.
Therefore, Mr. Speaker, in order that this matter may be set at rest-and I hope set at rest once and for all-I propose to give now to the house, and through the house to the public of Canada, the names of the ships sunk in the gulf and river St. Lawrence by enemy action in the year 1942. I know that in doing so I am adopting an unusual course. I know it is not the practice-in fact it is directly contrary to the practice of any of the allied powers to give public information of this kind in such detail. Nevertheless in this instance the sinkings have occurred at intervals of six to ten months, and unless I give the names to the people of the country, and of course to the house, I shall have to spend a great deal of time, and my staff will have to spend much lime, in answering every rumour, every unfounded allegation, and every bit of gossip which may circulate in any part of the country.
Here, Mr. Speaker, are the names of the ships:
Lelo
Nicoya
Dinaric
Hainaut
Anastassios Pateras
Chatham
Arlyn
Donald Stewart Aeas
Mount Pindus Oakton
Mount Taygelos
Saturnus
Inger Elisabeth
Joannis
Carolus
Waterton
Caribou
There you have the names of eighteen merchantmen which were sunk. In order that there may be no confusion, I add to that the names of two ships-of-war sunk by enemy action-at least one, the corvette Charlottetown, was so sunk, and the other, the Canadian ship Raccoon, is presumed to have been sunk by enemy action. No one knows just what happened to it.	[DOT]
There you have a total of twenty ships. There is only one possibility of the number being anything different, and I shall tell the house about that. It is with respect to the Frederika Lensen. This vessel was attacked by enemy submarine and was beached by her crew in an endeavour to salvage her. However, later she broke up, owing mainly, I understand, to the stress of weather and sea. I have not included her in the number.

The Budget-Mr. Macdonald (Kingston)
There you have twenty ships of all kinds. I was more generous in some of my statements. I said that there were twenty merchantmen sunk, but I find that there were but eighteen merchantmen sunk, while two of the ships were-


Richard Burpee Hanson: Would the minister give the geographical location of those sinkings?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I am coming to that now. These are the ships sunk in the gulf and river St. Lawrence. I take the gulf of St. Lawrence to include the strait of Belle Isle up to and including the island of Belle Isle, which lies at the northern mouth of the strait. I take it to include Cabot strait and that water which lies east and north of a line drawn from Scatari island on the east shore of Cape Breton through the south coast of St. Pierre to Taylor Bay in Newfoundland. All the area marked in blue on this map which I show to hon. members I take to be the gulf of St. Lawrence. I do not think anyone can enlarge the boundaries of that gulf beyond the limits delineated in blue on this map. I may tell the house that those are the limits fixed by the international hydrographers' association.
The waters in question extend from the city of Quebec to the furthermost end of the strait of Belle Isle, a distance of some 700 miles. It would be quite impossible for Mr. Gagnon, for the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Roy) or for anybody else, even if he used the fastest aeroplane in the world, to obtain accurate personal knowledge of everything that went on in every part of that area. No man can be in two or a hundred places at the same time. It would be impossible for me to have, and I do not have, personal knowledge of these matters, but I think I can say that I know whereof I speak when I speak of these sinkings. Through a system of naval control of shipping we know the movement and the fate of ships moving in this area.
On the eastern coast there are six naval olficers who are known as naval control service officers. They are stationed at St. John's Newfoundland; Sydney, Nova Scotia; Halifax, Nova Scotia; Saint John, New Brunswick; Quebec and Montreal. Under them are twelve other officers known as reporting officers, and under them again are eighty subreporting officers. Every port of any consequence whatever in eastern Canada, in Quebec and the maritime provinces, has stationed at it one or other of these naval control service officers or naval reporting officers or sub-reporting officers. They have complete knowledge of the movement of ships.
They give orders to ships, certainly to all ocean-going ships, as to how and when they shall proceed. If a ship does not turn up at the next port, checking proceedings are instituted immediately and the fate of the ship is ascertained.
With this system of naval control, with the reports that we receive from our escort vessels, and with the other sources of information that we have, I think I can say that I am in a much better position to estimate the number of losses in this area than is Mr. Gagnon or the hon. member for Gaspe or even the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot). I have gone into this matter at some length because the question has narrowed down to a dispute between two men. I think it is proper to inquire what is the source of information open to these men. I think the answer to that question will have a great bearing upon the credence which can be given to any statement they may make.
I am speaking now from the official records of the naval department. Mr. Gagnon is speaking, the hon. member for Gaspe is speaking, and all who join with them are speaking, not from what they have seen, because they could not see everything; not from what they know officially, but from the gossip of the riverfront and the countryside. That is the source of their information.
These are the facts, facts which I think the people of Canada should consider. They are facts which they should consider when they are assessing the weight which can be given to the statements of Mr. Gagnon., I have named the ships sunk in this area. Let Mr. Gagnon now add to that list if he can. Let him produce the names of the ten other ships or the more than ten other ships which he claims were sunk in this area. If he cannot do that in a matter of this importance, then he is discredited before the people of this country. Perhaps some others will be discredited with him. Perhaps some of the hon. members of this house-they are not all in the far corner-who have apparently placed some faith in the statements of Mr. Gagnon will now change their point of view.
Mr. Gagnon's main theme in the Quebec legislature, as I have said, was to state the number of ships sunk. He made definite allegations in that regard. I immediately denied those allegations, and that is the question at issue between us. At the time of his speech in Quebec Mr. Gagnon said nothing, as I read the newspapers, about a commission to examine into other matters. I will agree that he did say something about the building of roads, about blackouts and about what he
1340	COMMONS
The Budget-Mr. Macdonald (Kingston)
alleged was a long delay in getting an aeroplane to a certain point in the river. But he was completely, absolutely and entirely silent on the question of a general investigation.
But what does Mr. Gagnon do now? Finding that he cannot make good on his statements, finding that he cannot name the thirty ships, finding that there is a great difference between cold print and gossip, Mr. Gagnon resorts to a very ancient and palpable method of evasion. He says, "Oh, yes, I am willing to have a commission investigate the number of sinkings in the St. Lawrence, but I must have thirteen other matters investigated as well." He produced fourteen points. Some of Mr. Gagnon's statements are mere allegations, unsupported by any evidence whatever. Some of them are like the questions often put in this house. Hon. members make certain assumptions, and then try to turn the assumptions into fact and base questions upon those assumed facts.
For example, Mr. Gagnon wants to know why the navy department did not take measures to prevent disaster in the strait of Belle Isle. That is one of the things he wants a *commission to investigate. Mr. Gagnon knows that we have taken measures. He knows that every warship that we have at sea, whether in the St. Lawrence or in the Atlantic or elsewhere, is protecting the strait of Belle Isle and the shores of this country. That is true, no matter where the ship may be.
Mr. Gagnon then went on to ask what orders had been given to officers of the navy and the air force concerning torpedoing and the direction of convoys. Mr. Gagnon knows very well that this sort of thing is secret and cannot be given to the public.
Nothing could better illustrate the unreliability of rumour and the folly and futility of accepting rumour without investigation than some of the statements made on Monday night in this house by the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Roy). I take, for instance, two or three statements in the speech the hon. member for Gaspe made on Monday night to show how little he has ever done to investigate rumours. In his speech on Monday night, near the beginning of his remarks he said this. He referred to-
-the activities of the corvette which was supposed to have escorted a boat called the Jean Briand from Rimouski to the north shore . . . I should like to tell the house what information I have about this corvette.
Then he went on to say :
... in the first days of July the boat I just mentioned was carrying some sportsmen going on a fishing trip on the north shore. Said boat was escorted by a corvette as far as to the 'north shore.

I need not read the rest. I think that is enough. My hon. friend makes the statement in this house that the Jean Briand was escorted by a corvette to the north shore, that the boat Jean Briand was carrying some fishermen on a fishing trip. It happens that I have some information on that point. I have in the first place an affidavit from Mr. Jean Brillant himself, the man after whom the boat was named, and the man who I think owns the boat.


Mr. POULIOT:: He is dead.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: It is Jules Brillant, a relative of the man after whom the boat was named. Mr. Jules Brillant makes this affidavit:
I, Jules A. Brillant, manufacturer and member of the legislative council of the province of Quebec, residing in the city of Rimouski, being duly sworn, state:-
On June 17, 1942, I was a passenger on the Jean Brillant, the property of the Lower St. Lawrence Navigation Company, which left Rimouski on that morning for her regular trip, around 8.30 a.m. Neither at sailing time nor at any time during the trip, the said ship was ever convoyed or escorted in any way whatever.	.
And I have signed.
(signed) J. A. Brillant. Sworn before me. in Rimouski, this 21st day of July, 1942.
N. Gendreau
C.S.C. for Rimouski District.
Now I wish to read the affidavit of Mr. Seraphin Morissette, of the town of Rimouski:
I, Seraphin Morissette, of the town of Rimouski, being duly sworn, state:
I am the local manager of the lower St. Lawrence Navigation Company, in Rimouski. On June 17th, 1942, around 8.30 a.m., the Jean Brillant, a ship owned by the company which I represent, left Rimouski as usual with passengers for Baie Comeau and Sept-Iles, and freight. Mr. J. A. Brillant was aboard the ship as a passenger on his way to Natash-quan, as he has been doing quite often for some years.
I have never asked, nor did any of my employees ever ask that the said ship be convoyed or escorted.
I was present when the boat left on the morning in question and there was no escort accompanying her.
And I have signed.
(signed) S. Morissette. Sworn before me, in Rimouski, this 21st day of July, 1942.
(signed) J. Gendreau,
C.S.C. District of Rimouski.
Then I have here the affidavit of the captain of the ship:
I, William J. E. A. Tremblay, Lieutenant Commander, R.C.N.R., of St. Joseph de la Rive, P.Q., being duly sworn state:
I am Captain of the Jean Brillant, a ship owned by the Lower St. Lawrence Navigation

The Budget-Mr. Macdonald (Kingston)
Company and I was in charge of the said ship on the occasion of the trip from Rimouski to the North Shore on June 17th, 1942. At no time during this trip has the Jean Brillant been escorted or convoyed.
And I have signed.
(signed) Capt. Wm. Tremblay.
These are the affidavits of Mr. Brillant, a respected and responsible citizen of the province- of Quebec and a member of the legislative council of that province; of Mr. Morissette, agent for the shipping company; and of the captain of the ship.
I have only one thing to add. After getting these affidavits I thought there might be some possibility that it was some -other trip that was in question. So I wired Mr. Brillant and asked him if he had undertaken any other voyage on that ship. He replied1 under date of July 31 last year in these words:
No other voyage undertaken on the St. Lawrence river apart from the trip made on the 17th. Mailing copy Tremblay's affidavit.
J. A. Brillant.
In those affidavits and telegrams you have definite proof, as definite as proof can be, sworn proof of the inaccuracy of the statements made by the hon. member for Gaspe. I believe that from that evidence alone -this house and this country will know how much reliance can be placed on anything else which that hon. gentleman may state.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker-


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Furthermore-


Gordon Graydon: On a point of order-may I ask the minister to sit down while I am stating mj' point of order?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I know the rules as well as the hon. gentleman does.


Gordon Graydon: The hon. member for Gaspe is not in his seat.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: He ought to be here.


Gordon Graydon: The minister has gone hysterical over this matter, and I think it is about time he levelled his remarks off.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: The hon. member is not in order in making that statement.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.
Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City)1: I rise to a point of order. The use of the word "hysterical" by an hon. member in -this house in reference to another hon. member is unparliamentary.


Gordon Graydon: I withdraw the word.


Jean-François Pouliot: It is not a point of order; it is a question of privilege, if there is any.


Gordon Graydon: May I say, Mr. Speaker-


Angus Lewis Macdonald: May I ask that -the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) be taught to observe the rules of this house about which he speaks so often.


Jean-François Pouliot: I always do sir.


Thomas Vien: There is a point of order before the house.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, -may I withdraw the remark which I made with respect to the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services, because I see that he -has now regained his usual good humour. But I should like to say this on the point of order. The minister, if I recall aright, having tried to prove by affidavit or otherwise-


Mr. MARTIN:: Having proved.


Gordon Graydon: May I say to the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) that he as a lawyer ought to know this-


Mr. HOMUTH:: He is not a good lawyer, though.


Thomas Vien: Order. There is a point of order before the chair, and the chair wishes to know what the point of order is.


Gordon Graydon: I said that the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services attempts to prove, and I use the word "attempts" advisedly, for, as the hon. member for Essex must know, without cross-examination on an affidavit it is not necessarily any proof at all.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is not
evidence.


Gordon Graydon: When the Minister of ' National Defence for Naval Services tried to prove that certain things were not correct in the speech of the hon. member for Gaspe, I was prepared to allow that to pass unnoticed. But when he said that after this we shall all know -how much dependence can be placed on the statements of the hon. member he said something which surely he must withdraw. If ever there was a reflection on any hon. member since I have been in this house, -this is definitely one.


Jean-François Pouliot: Speaking to the point of order, even if the remarks of the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services on one point were correct, which I doubt, he would not only be speaking against the rules of the house, but he would also be philosophically wrong, because he would conclude from the
1342	COMMONS
The Budget-Mr. Macdonald (Kingston)
particular to the general. Therefore, sir, to act in accordance with the best traditions of this house when you are in the Chair, I hope that even, if the minister is right on one single point he will not conclude that he is right on ever}' other point.


Thomas Vien: The point of order was raised by the leader of the opposition that a statement made by the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services was improper, namely, as I caught it, that the country would . know what reliance to place on the words of the hon. member for Gaspe in future.


An hon. MEMBER:: The statements.


Thomas Vien: I think that that is a statement, which should not be applied to any hon. member of the house.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I am delighted, Mr. Speaker, to withdraw any statement which should: not be made concerning any hon. member. But what I have said with regard to the affidavits and telegrams carries its own weight, speaks for itself, and I need say no more on that particular point.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Much ado about nothing.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Oh, it is not much ado about nothing. The hon. member for York-Sunbury this afternoon tried to raise this same question. When the Postmaster General (Mr. Mulock) denied that he had asked for a convoy for that ship because it was carrying mail, the hon. gentleman still assumed that it was convoyed and said, "Then who ordered it convoyed?"


Richard Burpee Hanson: I asked a question.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: No, the hon. member made a statement of fact. You said "Who ordered it convoyed1?" My hon. friend assumed that it had been convoyed.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Still much ado about nothing.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will go on to another statement made by the hon. member for Gaspe. He referred to an important battle which had taken place near his home, off Griffon cove, a battle which went on between two corvettes and a submarine, lasting an hour and a half, and he said that no planes arrived1 in. all that time to help out the corvettes. Well, I have investigated that. I have had reports from the logs of the ships, and I find that I must regretfully disappoint the hon. member for Gaspe; I must tell him that he has 
not had the privilege of witnessing a battle at all, and that all he heard was gun practice between two corvettes which were going up the river. Ships at sea, as hon. members realize, have at certain times to carry out gun practice so that their guns shall be in proper shape and the men shall receive a certain amount of training in gunnery. That was all my hon. friend saw. The point which I protest against, Mr. Speaker-


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is all we are getting now, is gun practice.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Some of my hon. friends a-re not standing up to the fire very well, either. I think that shot went. home.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: And there are many more in the locker.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes. The point on which I criticize the hon. member for Gaspe in the Brillant case is this. He knows Mr. Brillant, he knows some of the other gentlemen who were on that trip, and he could have asked them. "Were you accompanied by a corvette when going on the fishing trip?" He never took that trouble; he assumed the worst. The same is true of this matter of the so-called fight between the corvettes and the submarine. The hon. member never thought of going over to the Gaspe naval base and asking the naval commander of the base what had happened in this fight, how it turned out, whether the corvettes prevailed over the submarine, or generally what happened. Apparently he made no attempt to investigate, but he comes to this house and says that for an hour and a half a battle went on, with no planes around, when there was no battle at all.
In the next place, in his speech he said that on September 15 ships were attacked somewhere in the vicinity of Cap des Rosiers and that no planes were around to help the ships. Now, I had that investigated, and I find that there was a plane with the convoy on that occasion. That plane at the particular time was flying some distance ahead of the convoy, as planes often do, and evidently the submarine was submerged when the plane, went over the spot. Then after the plane had gone ahead, circling up the river, the submarine appeared on the surface, where it was seen by some people, and it did some damage. But there was a plane accompanying that convoy. A plane cannot be everywhere, and it was unfortunate that in this instance the luck of events went to the submarine in that the plane did not notice it. But I have it from

The Budget-Mr. Macdonald (Kingston)
the air staff that their aircraft have carried out eight attacks on submarines in the St. Lawrence area, during each of which depth charges were dropped. While they have no concrete evidence as to the results of the attacks, they believe that some damage was done on at least some of the occasions.
Let me say a word with regard to the sinking of submarines and the communicating of information to the officers in charge of either the navy or the air force. In this case on September 15 the naval officer at Quebec did did not receive any word about the submarine until after the submarine had launched its torpedoes. I do not know whose fault that was, if it was anybody's fault. I can understand that on a long stretch of coast where people may have to go some little distance to a telephone and make a call to someone else, who in turn perhaps has to relay the communication to some other person, some time might be lost. But I do know the time at which the naval officer at Quebec received the information, and unfortunately it was then too late to do anything about the matter. Submarines strike very quickly and they can submerge very quickly.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: Can the minister tell the house whether there is a telephone in the lighthouse at Cap des Rosiers, and whether the telephone exchange is very far from this lighthouse?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I
do not know definitely. I assume there would be a telephone in the lighthouse, but I do not know how far the man who saw the submarine had to go to reach the lighthouse; I do not know how long it took him to get there, nor do I know how long it took to get the call through to Quebec. All I am telling this house is that the naval officer at Quebec did not get the information until it was too late to do anything about it. In connection with this matter of sighting submarines, I want to say that eighty per cent of the reported sightings-I think that is the general figure throughout the world-turn out to be unsubstantiated; that is, the objects sighted and reported as submarines are not submarines at all. So that while it is all to the credit of the people in the constituency of Gaspe that they report everything they see which they think might be a submarine, the hon. member must not feel that every time they think they see a submarine there is actually one there.


Thomas Vien: I am sorry; the minister's time has expired.
Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City); I had hoped I might be able to go on, because I could finish in a few moments.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go on.


Thomas Vien: By- unanimous consent.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: I shall trouble the house for only a few more moments. In fairness to Mr. Gagnon I must say that I have no doubt whatever that he is acting on what he believes to be accurate information. I can understand how he might have one man reporting a ship sunk and another man perhaps reporting the same ship sunk. But what I do criticize in Mr. Gagnon, or in the hon. member for Gaspe, or in anyone else who talks as they talk, is that fuller and more complete investigation was not made by them before charges so serious were launched in this house or in the Quebec legislature, or brought before the people of this country.
As to an investigation, as asked for by Mr. Gagnon, I will say this: Mr. Gagnon or anyone else can have an investigation if some person with knowledge will make charges and ' take the responsibility for what he says. But if the charges are not charges at all but mere rumours, unconfirmed and uninvestigated, then the case is different. If at every time when a difference arises and allegations are made, one party to the dispute says, "Produce your proof or let us submit the matter to a third party who will ascertain the facts," and the other person says, "Now wait a minute; there are many other things to be considered"-if that is done you will never get the facts. It would be very much as if when one man accused another of being a thief, the accused should say, "Well, prove that I am a thief," and the first man replies, "Oh, no. We have to investigate a great many other things first. We have to determine whether you are a murderer, a wife-beater, a robber, a burglar and so on, before we can investigate the charge of theft. We must investigate twelve or thirteen other charges which I am now bringing forward." It would be very much like the radio comedian I heard last winter who said he went into a shop to buy a collar button and asked how much it would be. The clerk replied that it would cost S75. "Well," the comedian said, "that is a terrible price for a collar button." The clerk replied, "Yes, but with the collar button we throw in a dress shirt, collar and tie; a pair of dress shoes and socks, a tuxedo jacket and two pairs of trousers." If you go on adding this, that and the other thing you will never reach an end. Mr. Gagnon insists on an investigation, but the first thing

1344	COMMONS
The Budget-Mr. Macdonald (Kingston)
to settle, the first thing in dispute and the issue I raised with Mr. Gagnon, is the number of sinkings.
To return to the hon. member for Gaspe. At page 1270 of Hansard he said that the battle of the St. Lawrence gulf was lost through selfishness and lack of organization. I say that the battle of the St. Lawrence gulf has not been lost. I am not going to give the exact figures, which would perhaps help the enemy, but I can say that of the total tonnage which used that river and the gulf last year, only three out of every thousand tons was sunk. That is a fairly good record. I know the general average of convoy sinkings throughout the world, and I can say that if you only lose three tons out of every thousand which you have at sea you are doing pretty well, in fact somewhat better than the average. We have not lost the battle of the gulf. Some people think the gulf is easily defended. Yesterday the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Black) said it was impossible for him to think that ships equipped with all the modern scientific appliances could not go up that river and be safe from attack. When some people speak of a river they think of a fairly small stream that can be bridged or that can be easily netted; they think of a river perhaps half a mile or a mile wide. Let them remember that the St. Lawrence river, at the point farthest inland where an attack was made last year, is thirty miles wide. This is almost like the open sea. It is wider than the straits of Dover between England and France. If the great British navy with all its experience and skill and strength and devotion to duty has not succeeded in making the straits of Dover absolutely safe from submarines-indeed only a year ago it was unable to prevent certain great enemy ships from going through the straits- if that cannot be done there, is it to be wondered at that we cannot guarantee complete immunity to ships in the river St. Lawrence, remembering that at points it is wider than the straits of Dover?


Gordon Graydon: May I ask the minister before he sits down if he would comment on what Premier Godbout said in the Quebec legislature, namely, that everyone knows there are spies all along the St. Lawrence and that there must be bases, perhaps not in the St. Lawrence .but possibly in Newfoundland?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: Yes, I will divert for a moment to speak of that. The French version of Premier Godbout's remarks is not as my friend gave it. I assume Premier Godbout was speaking in French and

I would assume that the French reporter would have a more correct summary of his speech.


Jean-François Pouliot: It was a text.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: The French version says that Premier Godbout said that there might be spies in the St. Lawrence area and perhaps in Newfoundland. That of course is so; I have said it myself.


Gordon Graydon: What about bases?


Angus Lewis Macdonald: There may be bases in some remote spot; there is no knowledge of bases in my department or through the police or anyone else. It is a possibility, a remote possibility, I should think.
The St. Lawrence is not an easy river to defend, but as I said in another place two or three weeks ago, I believe the defence of the river this year, so far as the naval service is concerned, and I think so far as the air force and the army are concerned, will be stronger than it was last year. We shall have more ships, I hope, to guard the gulf and river. But I am not here to say that even if we double or treble the number of ships w*e had last year we shall be able to guarantee complete safety for every ship sailing up and down that river. It cannot be done; if you had the whole Canadian navy strung out in the gulf of St. Lawrence, abandoning all the other places you have to protect, you still could not guarantee complete immunity from submarine attack. That cannot be done; it has not been done by any nation in the world. To-day off the very shores of Japan United States submarines are operating and sinking ships; Japanese submarines approached the west coast of America last winter and fired shells on American soil; there are sinkings on the British coast; submarines get there in spite of all they can do. But every effort that can be made by the navy or the air force or the army will be put forth this summer in order to make that river and that gulf as safe as possible.
The hon. member for Gaspe referred to the worry of the people there. I question very much if my hon. friend's speech in this house, containing as it did certain matters which he had not investigated, certain matters which were pure rumour, will do anything to allay the worry of the people of his constituency and the people along the river. I think my hon. friend would have been much better employed if he had investigated some of these rumours, found out the facts and said to his people: I have looked into this matter, and there is nothing to worry about so far as

Social Security
this particular incident is concerned; 1 have looked into it and am able to tell you that. That would have been a better course, a more loyal course-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: -a course of more benefit to his constituents-


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: The minister
suggests that it would have been a more loyal course. I suggest that in making that observation the minister is imputing insufficient loyalty on the part of the hon. member.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: My hon. friend ought to read the old grammars on the comparison of adjectives and remember that there is a positive, comparative and superlative-many, more, most. I say my friend would have pursued a more loyal course to his own constituents and to this country if he had investigated these rumours and endeavoured to allay the fears of his people.	,


Thomas Langton Church: Will the minister make a
statement about the escort strength? We seem to have been trusting to Providence more than the Canadian navy.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, if the course I have taken is not a loyal one or not loyal enough, then it was disloyal to a certain extent. I ask the minister to withdraw that expression.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: My time is up. I have spoken to the point of order and I declare to you that there is no reference there which is out of order.
I am sorry that I cannot answer the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) as it is six o'clock and my time has gone. On the war appropriation discussion I will deal with him and with the gibes which from time to time in this house he has made against the Canadian navy. I am getting heartily sick and tired of the sneers-


Thomas Langton Church: I never made any sneers or gibes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Speaker, it is now six o'clock and I move the adjournment of the debate. But before I do so I suggest to the Minister of National Defence for Naval Services that he had better reflect on the reflections which he has made on the hon. member for Broadview.
Motion agreed to and debate adjourned.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, March 18, 1943.