[Stage Direction]
Second and final report of special committee on radio broadcasting.-Mr. McCann.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. T. TURGEON (Cariboo) presented the third report of the special committee on reconstruction and reestablishment and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. ADAMSON:: 1.	Have steps been taken by the Canadian army overseas to establish a separate corps, similar to the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (R.E.M.E.), responsible for all mechanical and electrical maintenance in the field?
2.	If so, what steps have been taken in this regard?
3.	Upon whose advice?
4.	Have similar steps been taken with respect to the Canadian army in Canada?
5.	Have the armies of the other British dominions and India formed a separate corps to undertake this engineering and maintenance work?
Questions


Mr. MACDONALD (Halifax):: 1.	A corps of electrical and mechanical engineers has not as yet been formed in the Canadian army. The organization of repair and maintenance services now in effect in the British army consequent upon the formation of the R.E.M.E. has been adopted by the Canadian army. Consideration of the forma,-tion of such a separate army unit will await the observations of responsible officers of the Canadian overseas army after experience gained regarding its operation in the British organization. In the meantime, the personnel concerned remain with the Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Answered by No. 1.
4.	See answer to No. 1.
5.	Information available here not sufficiently definite.


FLYING OFFICER GEORGE BEURLING
Mr. COTE:: What steps, if any, have been taken to bring about the transfer from the R.A.F. into the RC.A.F. of F/O George Beurling, D.S.O., PFC, D.F.M., and Bar, a native son and the pride of the city of Verdun, Quebec?


Mr. MACMILLAN:: This officer has made application for transfer from R.A.F. to R.C.A.F. Air Ministry have agreed that he may relinquish his commission in the R.A.F.V.R. on appointment to a commission in the R.C.AJF. Effective action to this end is now in process.


WHITEHORSE, YUKON, WATER AND SANITARY CONDITIONS
Mr. MacINNIS:: 1.	Has the government been advised of a serious water shortage and bad sanitary conditions in Whitehorse, Yukon Territory?
2.	Has the government been informed of proposals made by the United States government for the installation of a water and sewage system in the town of Whitehorse, Yukon Territory?	.
3.	If so, has an agreement been reached m the matter?


Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	Yes. The matter of water supply and sewage disposal for Whitehorse local community is primarily a responsibility of the Yukon territorial council, but in view of defence activities in the area the Dominion government is interested. It is very difficult to determine the future needs of the community on the basis of present emergency conditions, but in the meantime necessary precautions have been taken by the territorial government.

2.	Yes. The United States engineers are constructing a water supply and sewage system for their camp. The lines pass through Whitehorse. Provision is being made for connections which the local community may require on the understanding that no extra expense will be borne by United States for this community service.
3.	See answers to questions 1 and 2.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE-NEW BRUNSWICK
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	What has been the amount collected by the unemployment insurance branch in the province of New Brunswick from its inception to date?
2.	What has been paid out for relief in said province for the same period?
3.	What is the administrative cost per week?
4.	What is the number of employees in the New Brunswick branch of the unemployment insurance commission?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	$2,242,864.40.
2.	The amount of unemployment insurance benefit paid in New Brunswick totals $48,498.27. No federal relief. Provincial relief paid, if any, unknown.
3.	The total administrative expense per week, incurred in the operation of the employment service, including the administration of the national selective service regulations and unemployment insurance in the province of New Brunswick, was $4,849.57 during the fiscal year ending March 31, 1943. Unemployment insurance operations are integrated with those of national selective service and it is impossible to give a separate figure for unemployment insurance cost.
4.	177, of whom 113 in the local offices of the employment service and unemployment insurance branch located in New Brunswick, and 64 in the regional office of the unemployment insurance commission at Moncton for the whole of the maritimes.
For the reasons given in No. 3, it is impossible to state accurately to what extent those employees are engaged in national selective service work.


EUROPEAN POLITICAL REFUGEES
Mr. COLDWELL:: 1.	Has the government reached any understanding with regard to the provision of asylum for some European political refugees?
2.	Has the government made any arrangements regarding the procuring of facilities for the distribution of relief to refugees in Spain, and North Africa?

Ontario Election
3.	Has the government made representations to the French committee of liberation regarding the release of Spanish republicans and members of the anti-fascist international brigade now interned in North Africa?
4.	Has the government made any representations regarding the release of Spanish republicans and members of the anti-fascist international brigade now interned in Spain?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 
SELECTIVE SERVICE-COMPULSORY TRANSFER ORDER OF MAY 4, 1943
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: 1 How many special directives have been issued by national selective service or the Department of Labour relating to the compulsory transfer order of May 4, 1943.
2.	What are the terms and provisions of each of such special directives?
3.	What occupations or industries have been given special consideration or exempted from the said compulsory transfer order?


ONTARIO ELECTION
Mr. McNEVIN:: 1.	Was any property purchased from Mr. T. J. Mahony in Saltfleet township, county of Wentworth?
2.	If so, how many acres were purchased?
3.	What price was paid for same?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	Yes. It was expropriated on April 21, 1942, and the confirmatory deed was dated May 5, 1942.
2.	27-68 acres.
3.	$35,983.67.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. BRUCE:: l.What are the names of the four medica, officers representing the defence services and the Department of Pensions and National Health, respectively, who made a special investigation as to the suitability of Christie Street hospital site for further additional hospital buildings?


ARRANGEMENTS FOR SOLDIER VOTES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day are called I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Defence, notice of which I have given him. Would he acquaint the house as to the steps being taken by his department, in conjunction with the Ontario authorities, to ensure that the following classes of soldiers will not be disfranchised in the forthcoming provincial election: (a) those in training centres in Ontario who are moved from one centre to another in the province between the dates of enumeration or revision of the lists and polling day; (b) those who will be moved from points in Ontario to points elsewhere in Canada from the date of enumeration or revision of the list until polling day. In the case of the latter class will proxies be given to them prior to their transfer to other points in the dominion? I should also be glad if the minister would inform the house whether proxies have been made available to soldiers who during the past three weeks have been moved from Ontario to other points.
Ontario Election


Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: I received my hon. friend's questions only five minutes before entering the house to-day, and I have not been able to make definite inquiries with respect to either the first or the third, because they require some examination and investigation. I think I can say, though, that with regard to those in training who are moved from one centre to another in the province, it is not possible to lay down now what procedure will be adopted, because that depends, as the house will see, first, on the number of men to be moved; second, on when they will be moved, whether in the first or the last part of the week, and third, on the distance they will be moved away from the camp in which they have been enumerated. But I can say I am satisfied steps will be taken to see that they are given an opportunity to vote. That is to say, if they are within the province they will exercise their vote, and if without the province they will vote by proxy. With respect to the second question, as to those who will be moved from points in Ontario to points elsewhere in Canada from the date of enumeration or revision of the lists until polling day, and whether or not they will be provided with proxies, the answer is yes. The hon. gentleman asks whether proxies have been made available to soldiers who during the past three weeks have been moved from Ontario to other points. I have not been able to make any particular inquiries in this respect. However,
I think I may say that if the proxies were received in the camps and if the instructions were followed, they should have been made available.


Gordon Graydon: Will the minister make further inquiry?


James Layton Ralston: That would mean inquiring at every camp and in regard to every man.


REFERENCE TO STATEMENT OF MR. DREW IN THE &quot;GLOBE AND MAIL&quot; OF JULY 21
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. T. FULFORD (Leeds):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. In view of the statement made in this house yesterday by the minister with regard to certain reserve units in military district No. 3, have any steps been taken to have Mr. Drew retract the reckless and ill-considered statements attributed to him by the Toronto Globe and Mail of Wednesday, July 21?


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order-
[Mr. Graydon.l


George Taylor Fulford: I shall quote in part-


Gordon Graydon: On a point of order-


George Taylor Fulford: I quote:
Gananoque, July 20.-"To-day we see the government-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


George Taylor Fulford: -"taking another step to cheat the men out of their right to vote," said Mr. Drew.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I think the house generally will not wish to have the provincial election brought into the House of Commons.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: Who has been doing it?


George Taylor Fulford: "To-day's ruling that members of the reserve army who are in camp will have no right to vote there is an insult to every member of the reserve army."


Gordon Graydon: I do not think we can take these remarks as being anything except political, and we may as well-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: You have been doing more of that than we on this side.


James Layton Ralston: I am perfectly willing to answer certain questions with regard to the provincial election, and we certainly have heard already considerable discussion in this house which had not very much to do with dominion affairs. Several questions have been asked with respect to the provincial election. No one has objected , and I think they were in the same class as the question just asked by the hon. member for Leeds.


Gordon Graydon: I think the Minister of National Defence will realize that the questions which have been put to him with regard to proxies and voting and so on are quite proper questions. At least I so regard them, and I think the minister will also.


James Layton Ralston: They were about the provincial election.


Gordon Graydon: They were about the provincial election, but I would point out to the minister that they concerned his department and were not directed to him with the idea of embarrassing anyone in connection with them. I should like to point out that the kind of statement made here, in which reference is made to one of the prominent men in provincial affairs, is one that is totally uncalled for.

War Appropriation-Mines and Resources


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It ia a statement he made.


Gordon Graydon: It has no precedent so far as previous debate in the house is concerned.


James Layton Ralston: The hon. member showed me this newspaper paragraph just as I was coming into the chamber, and I could hardly credit that a gentleman in Mr. Drew's position would make such a statement. His statement is a direct reflection upon the department over which I have the honour to preside. It has to do with the matter of depriving the men of the reserve army of their votes. It is exactly on a par with what has already been discussed. I only want to say that nothing has been done, that no communication has been had with Colonel Drew with regard to his statement because I have not regarded it as necessary. Public opinion perhaps will be the best answer in that respect, after the announcement I made yesterday concerning the arrangements which had been made for the reserve army to vote.
It happens that one camp in the whole of Ontario had been fixed for a certain date before the date of the Ontario election was known. There have been screams from several quarters, not in this house, and not by men of the reserve army, to the effect that the Department of National Defence had deprived men who were going to that camp of their votes. I think "disfranchise" was one word used and "iniquitous" was another. It does seem to me, after the statement I made yesterday, that hon. members and the public generally and public men like Mr. Drew might accept the fact that we are doing everything we possibly can to make provision so that these men can vote, even curtailing the camp, as I explained yesterday, in order that they may get home in time. I have not called on Colonel Drew to retract his statement, and I do not propose to do so.


CANADIAN ARMY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. When the war appropriation estimates of the Department of National Defence were being discussed the question of equal pay for men and women in the armed services was raised. The minister promised to give this matter consideration. Has any conclusion been reached, and will the minister be able to make a statement to the house before it adjourns?



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Wednesday, July 21, eonsideratjpn in committee of a resolution to-grant to his majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Usley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.
Gordon Graydon: Before you call an item, Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Finance which has to do with the war appropriation measure. I should like to remind the minister that some time before these resolutions carry I should like to have a statement from him with regard to sugar rationing in the United States and Canada. This matter was raised on a couple of occasions while the resolutions were being discussed. I do not want him to forget to make a statement to the house before these-are passed.



DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND RESOURCES

[Stage Direction]
Dominion forest service-Alternative service work camps, $79,000.
National parks bureau-Alternative service work camps, $500,000.	,
Surveys and engineering branch-Alternative service work camps, $140,600.
Mr. ROSS (Souris):: Has the previous item passed? The other evening we were discussing alternative service work camps, and there is a further question I should like to ask in this regard. I understand that about a thousand conscientious objectors were moved from the prairies to British Columbia under some arrangement with the provincial government to do forestry work. The report I have is dated April 2il, 1943, and I understand these men were to be paid fifty cents per day for the work they did, while the forestry department was to be paid an allowance of $2.50 per day for their board and keep. Are these people still there under this arrangement?- because it seems to me they could render more essential service at this time if they were back on the prairies. I mean right to-day. They could be employed, for instance, in unloading wheat at the terminal elevators. As I pointed out the other night, there is a shortage of man-power for haying; within a few days the harvest season will be here, and without manpower our farmers cannot take off the large harvest we expect in western Canada. Why' cannot the thousand conscientious objectors be returned to the prairies where they could be doing much more essential work in the coming days?


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Mines and Resources):: The item we are consider-
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War Appropriation-Mines and Resources
mg is No. 12, and the question asked by my friend refers I think to a previous item already passed.


James Arthur Ross: It was under discussion when the committee rose.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understood that the item passed at that time, but I have no objection to answering, and this explanation is perhaps necessary. Alternate service is carried on under two different branches of the department. Part of it is under the national parks administration and part under the surveys and engineering branch. The conscientious [DOT]objectors who were sent to British Columbia over a year ago were sent to do forest protection work. There was a fear, how well justified I cannot say, that incendiary bombs might be dropped on British Columbia forests, as I believe did happen in some of the forests in the Pacific states. It was considered that the protection of the forests against a hazard *of that kind was more important than the work that conscientious objectors were doing at that time in the national parks, and they were accordingly sent to British Columbia, to the number of some six or seven hundred.


James Arthur Ross: I think the arrangement called for one thousand, and that seven hundred were sent out.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Between six and seven
hundred men were ultimately sent. Some of them have been brought back and placed at other work, largely upon farms because in the past year that policy has been adopted. A few more than four hundred of these conscientious objectors are still in British Columbia, and I am advised that they are cutting cordwood for fuel needs next winter.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: This item permits I think of a discussion of a problem vitally important to the war effort of this nation which arises directly out of an order published to-day in regard to an increase in the price of newsprint. In my opinion the best use is not being made of the services of conscientious objectors in the production of firewood and of pit-props. I would not bring this matter up now were it not that there is no more important factor in the war effort of this nation than the production of pulpwood out of which paper and paper products are made. There is such a shortage of man-power in the production of wood pulp that during the past year one million cords less were produced in Canada than the production required to meet present day needs, the demands of the United States, Great Britain and other countries of the empire.

This matter comes under the department administration by the minister in that one of the branches with which he is concerned is forest products laboratories, to which reference was made the other day. I know the interest of the Minister in the development of our resources and in ensuring that they shall be utilized to the achievement of the greatest possible war effort on the part of this nation. That requires man-power to be properly allocated to the production of pulpwood, which is one of the greatest industries in this country.
I take this matter up at this time because of its transcendent importance in the relationship of the publishers of the United States of America towards the war effort of this dominion. There has been during recent weeks a pronounced antagonism on the part of the American publishers towards the restriction that has taken place in this country in the production of necessary pulpwood. I find this, and I am sure that the minister is aware that it exists, that a feeling is springing up in the United States that we in Canada in raising the price of pulpwood and in not assuring the full production that is needed by the United States are actually trying to take some advantage of the United States, whose main importations of this product come from Canada. This morning the press carried this notification:
Ottawa, July 21.-The prices board announced to-night that effective next September 1 the ceiling on newsprint in Canada will be raised $4 a ton to conform with an increase of the same amount being put in effect in the United States.
The announcement was made jointly in Ottawa and Washington.
It said that on the basis of cost figures the prices board "is of the opinion that the present proposed increase is inadequate and that further discussions with the American authorities will need to be held."
There was an increase on March 1 of $4 a ton and there is a further increase now of S4 a ton. I sum up the situation as far as the necessity for pulp production in Canada is concerned. Lack of sufficient man-power during last season has resulted in the shortage to which I have already referred of one million cords of pulpwood. Vital war production has been endangered, because paper and pulpwood occupy to-day a position which is unequalled by any other industry in the war effort of the nation. Essential foreign exchange is being sacrificed, and as I have already mentioned, publishers in the United States are becoming antagonized against Canada. This is so important that it requires the very best consideration which the minister and

War Appropriation-Mines and Resources
the other members of the cabinet can give to it. I have before me the American Newspaper Publishers' Association bulletin of July 12, 1943, ' of which I shall read excerpts to place before the house and the country the serious situation in which we shall find ourselves unless we do something to assure that United States publishers receive from this country supplies of pulpwood necessary for paper production. This is what it says:
Regardless of the facts as they are interpreted to various publishers, it does seem that the matter of price is interwoven with the matter of supply from Canada. The Canadians have stated that they will continue to supply newsprint to the United States at the rate of 210,000 tons per month through the third quarter, but they do not indicate in any way what they will do in the fourth quarter. There have been suggestions that the Canadians will reduce the tonnage going to the United States from 210,000 tons in the fourth quarter regardless of what price prevails.
This is the magazine of the publishers' association, distributed for the information of the papers of the United States, and if this idea is allowed to be broadcast, the value of the work of our war information branch in the United States will be greatly reduced, if not nullified. The bulletin goes on:
On the present basis Canadian mills are delivering 210.000 tons to the United States each month, 16,000 tons to Canadian consumers, and 20,000 tons are provided for overseas, making a total of 246,000 tons.
I particularly direct attention to the next paragraph, which indicates the seriousness of this matter, having regard to the importance of this industry and the necessity of retaining the good feeling of the press of the United States:
There are a considerable number of publishers who recognize that the wood supply is the key to newsprint production in Canada but back of the wood supply is the man-power situation. These publishers feel that if sufficient man-power is provided in Canada there can be a reasonably adequate supply of newsprint, but the supply from Canada will diminish unless Canada takes steps to assure a greater wood cut.
I repeat to the minister how important it is for his department, charged with the administration of the resources of this dominion, that this matter receive the serious attention which I am sure he will give it in order that the possibility of ill-feeling being engendered between these two nations shall be avoided.
While United States publishers recognize that it is Canada's own responsibility to fix her man-power policies and execute her war programme, disquieting reports continue to reach United States publishers about a considerable amount of man-power being taken from cutting wood into army service, but these forces, by Canadian law, cannot be sent overseas except on a volunteer basis. In addition, in Canada
agriculture or farming is a basis for deferment from military service but pulpwood cutting is not classified as a basis for deferment from military service. In the United States both pulpwood cutting and agriculture are grounds for deferment from military service.
If the policy is pursued by the Canadians of not taking any special steps to maintain volume because of the man-power situation and the supply of newsprint from Canada to the United States is allowed to dwindle it can be seen that the Canadians will be making frequent and periodical visits to Washington^ demanding further increases in newsprint prices.
That is a strong condemnation of what these publishers believe Canada is going to do, that is, continue to secure rises in the price while not assuring the necessary production.
After all, the volume of production in any business as in newsprint has an important bearing upon cost. If the price of newsprint is to be maintained at a level which will make it possible for American newspapers to operate without losses aud have some assurance and security about their supply of newsprint then there must be clarification soon about what Canada will do in assuring a supply of newsprint commensurate with the needs of American newspapers.
That indicates how serious the matter is- that these publishers in the United States who require Canadian production believe or suggest that in continuing to raise the price without having the necessary man-power to assure the production they require, we are taking advantage of them at this time.
I need not point out to the minister how important the pulpwood industry is to Canada. If a feeling of this kind is allowed to develop among publishers in the United States, the adverse effect on the joint effort of these two nations in the war can well be imagined.
As late as 1940 Canada was producing more than fifty per cent of the world output. Our domestic consumption does not amount to very much, but the United States consumption constitutes the major demand for our pulp-forest products. So important, however-I again accentuate this

is the pulp and paper industry in this country that the Dominion Bureau of Statistics has said:
From the standpoint of sustaining balance of trade-
And now, of securing the necessary exchange.
-products of forest origin have been more consistent than any other comparable group of commodities, and in the wood and paper group itself, the pulp and paper industry has become the chief contributor.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: W-hat date is that?


John George Diefenbaker: That was stated in 1940. I do not wish to delay the committee by putting on the record the figures through the years, but if the minister wants the information I can. give it. It indicates that
5232	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Mines and Resources
[DOT]excepting the non-ferrous smelting and refining industry in 1940 no other industry in this *dominion exceeded the gross value of pulp and paper production. When foreign exchange is so important-considering the problem from that angle alone-a very special effort should be made on the part of our country to ensure that this shortage in the production of pulp, -which directly affects the supply of newsprint, shall not be permitted to continue.
According to the United States Department -of Commerce, forestry branch, the army and navy and essential civilian needs will require this year 15,000,000 tons of paper and pulp-wood. It will take two and a quarter million -cords of pulpwood to manufacture the paper needed in the United States in 1943 to package food supplies and munitions for overseas shipment, and enormous quantities of pulpwood will be needed for the manufacture of smokeless powder, plastics and many other products that are indicated.
All this adds up to the point I have been endeavouring to make, that with the shortage in man-power which resulted in such a material reduction in production in Canada last year, *every available man that can be placed in the industry now should be assigned to it. Recently a survey was made to ascertain the situation and it was found by one of the companies that *only 36-9 per cent of the minimum requirements of men were in the bush during the week of July 2. It is impossible to secure the necessary man-power as the situation is to-day. In the United States the production of pulpwood is regarded as of great importance. One of the chief reasons for the reduction in Canadian production has been that while farmers are allowed to go into the woods and work for sixty days in any year, so long as employment does not interfere with agricultural production, during the past few months there has been a
[DOT]	grave fear among farmers-the proportion being two in the province of Quebec to one in Ontario-who ordinarily go into the bush during the winter to look after the cutting, that they will lose their rights to postponement by so doing, and the result is that they stay at home during the winter or other slack season. The situation will become even more serious unless action is taken immediately to put men to work in the woods. Entirely apart from the regular demand for wood fibre, the
[DOT]	demand is increasing in war production, and as shipping space becomes freer, more paper will be needed for export, even though Britain to-day is reduced to 20 per cent of the prewar level. Already the allied nations are .piling up reserves of paper to send to the

countries that are at present occupied, looking to the time when they will be relieved of the axis invaders and occupants, so as to make the free publication of world news possible in order to benefit the people of those countries by restoring them a free press.
It is essential to the war effort that the United States, Britain land the other countries I have mentioned should have sufficient paper to print the news to strengthen public morale. Five thousand tons of newsprint were recently shipped from Canada to the near east and North Africa for the very purpose I have mentioned. First, we must not lose this valuable trade by our failure to make the necessary man-power available for the purpose, even though it is part-time work and agricultural workers are freed for the purpose. Second, we must look ahead to the post-war period so that this industry shall not be permitted to fall into the position where the United States, our main customer, taking 71 per cent of our production, may turn to other methods in order to supply those needs now filled by pulpwood. More important than anything else-and it is on this basis that I make this appeal-we must not allow American publishers and the American newspaper association to get the idea that we in Canada are trying to take advantage of them in the matter of price. If we do, we may have an adverse press in the United States, and a press that is adverse in the slightest degree, a press that adopts an attitude antagonistic to Canada's war effort, resulting in a tendency to separate us one from the other in our united effort and to arouse suspicions between nations engaged in the common crusade, should be averted no matter what course must be taken in order to avoid it.
I appreciate the opportunity which the committee has given me to place this matter before hon. members in this sketchy manner. I have not desired to take up time with statistics, but I press the point strongly. We must not, we dare not, allow the attitude that is set forth in that publishers' association pamphlet to become general. There is only one way to avoid it, and that is by a proper allocation of necessary man-power. The attitude of American publishers is important to the war effort of this dominion. It is more important than we here can estimate. This is a matter that deserves, I submit, the most serious consideration of the minister and of the government. Once lost, the favour of the American publishers, their appreciation of what we are doing in Canada, will be very hard to regain.

War Appropiiation-Mines and Resources


Mr. CHURCH:: I am glad to see an awakened interest in the lands, forests and parks branch of the department. For the past five or six years we have not been giving sufficient attention to all that is involved in this item. When these matters came up on previous occasions there was little discussion. There was little more than ten or fifteen minutes of discussion last session on the whole item. May I point out a grave mistake which the government may make in regard to this very important asset. I refer to the natural resources of the north-west territories as far as the Yukon.
The government must consider seriously the activities that are taking place in the great development now under way in that country as a result of the work on the Alaska highway. A large number of Americans have come there and they are interested in the project from the military standpoint, but there is also the postwar importance of the matter to be considered. Our soldiers are now overseas and this territory will be in the future one of the greatest sources of employment and development in Canada. Many of our young soldiers are graduates of our universities in electrical engineering and in various other branches of that great profession. A great many of the young men who are now in Sicily and Africa used to go into this territory in the summer when they were students. The government must not be unmindful of the importance of this to our engineering graduates in the days to come. In dealing with these properties they must not lose sight of that.
In my opinion these various branches of the lands, forests and parks branch of this department will be of great service to Canada, or at any rate they can be made of great service to Canada after the war. Do not forget that these great natural resources of all kinds are going to be a great source of employment for our soldiers after this war; and above all, do not make the mistake that was made in Ontario with the natural resources of that province. From the Ottawa river right through Nipigon, some years ago, financial men came from New York and other places and grabbed the whole territory, the timber, water powers, mines, forests and great natural resources of new Ontario, with the result that valuable resources of various kinds there went for a song. Our mines and their wealth and everything else were underwritten and have been given away for a song, and now we are going to make the same fatal mistake in these great western areas if we are not careful, in regard to the north-west territories and the Yukon. Canada is not going to be
any land of milk and honey after the war is over; it is not going to be an easy place in which to live. Those hon. members who wish to do so may go home; this opposition does not consist of only one or two or three hon. members, as a section of the press apparently thinks. There are others here who have taken part in these debates on this item last year all alone, when no one else would do so. This is going to be a desperately poor country after the war. As I say, our natural resources have been given away and frittered away at a rapid rate; you have only to look at the export figures in regard to lumber, timber, mines and pulpwood and everything else which the axis powers have bought to make munitions to be used against our own men, to see how this is done. I say no part of the public domain, whether it is the timber, the soil or the minerals, should be given away in any haphazard way. It is all very well for people to come here from other countries and help develop our resources and water powers, to supply capital and all that sort of thing; our policy in that regard, has been commendable all along the line, but the government should be very careful in what it does with the great assets we have in our natural resources, and use them to develop Canada and aid our empire.
I am surprised at some of the things that have been done this session in the name of the war, things which are not relevant to the war at all. It seems to me the work of this whole department is devoted to only one part of Canada and that Ontario has been given little or nothing in national parks, forests or aid in streams, as was shown last year in the debate on this very item. We are forgotten year after year on this item. In the way this matter has been dealt with by order in council, private negotiations and private contracts over the head of parliament I see signs of the same mistake that was made in new Ontario. I agree with the policy of permitting those with capital to help develop this or any other territory. I do not agree with the policy of giving away our resources, nor do I agree with the way we have surrendered our sovereignty unregulated, to Americans, in this area. We are supposed to be a nation with status dreams, but I have been surprised at what has gone on in this department in connection with the giving away of property secretly, and by order in council, over the head of parliament to those who do not belong to this country. Money is needed and capital everywhere for development, but there is no real protection in giving away the sovereignty of the people of Canada
5234	COMMONS
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in regard to this property. I wish the miaister every success ia his work; ever siace I have been a member of the house I have endeavoured to help him by offering constructive criticisms, but I point out that these are our richest assets and they should not be further squandered in such a way. After the war all we will have left to fall back upon will be our natural resources, and in future we will have to be very careful to have no more barter or sale or squandering of those resources as we have had in the past.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The hon. member for Lake Centre expressed some concern over a possible shortage of newsprint, and I think, by inference at any rate, argued that the men employed under this vote should be sent to cut pulpwood rather than pit-props and cordwood. I think that is a fair inference to take from his remarks.


Gordon Graydon: I do not think he said that in so many words, did he?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, but the hon. member made reference to pit-props and cordwood and urged the importance of maintaining supplies of pulpwood; I think that is a fair statement. I do not take nearly as dark a view as my hon. friend does of the effect on American opinion of any shortage that may arise in connection with supplies of newsprint. I am aware that some agitation has been carried on in this connection by a few newspapers in the United States, but I think the great majority of newspapers in that country recognize the realities of the situation. I have not noticed, and I doubt if my hon. friend has noticed, any serious reduction in the size of newspapers published either in Canada or in the United States. In Great Britain, almost from the early days of the war, the newspapers were reduced in size by more than a half; some of them, I believe, carry only about a quarter of the news and views they carried formerly. After all, it is a question of man-power. You cannot put your hand in a hat and pull out man-power for coal mines, for transporting grain, to which the Minister of Trade and Commerce referred the other evening; for base metal mines, for the army, for the air force, for the navy and for all the multitude of things that require man-power to-day, including agriculture. There is no magic in getting these men.


Gordon Graydon: But there might be a good plan.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Well, hon. gentlemen
opposite have talked about plans last year
Mr. Church.]
and this year, but so far as I am aware they have not at any time suggested any plan which might be adopted by the government. I can tell my hon. friend that if he can produce a plan it will receive the earnest consideration of the government.


Gordon Graydon: We did not suggest any magic.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There has been a great deal of criticism. I do not object to that, but there have been no constructive suggestions as to how the problem might be solved.


Gordon Graydon: My hon. friend has not been listening very closely to the debates, or he would not say that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I suggest that the leader of the opposition read again his speeches and those of the members of his party, and see what he can extract from them in the way of constructive criticism. The other evening, on another vote, the hon. member for Lake Centre I thought argued that we should not keep these men at forestry work, and moved that the item be reduced to SI. He argued at that time, if I remember correctly, that there was a great scarcity of agricultural labour, and that these people should be sent to work on the farms. To-day the hon. gentleman comes forward with another suggestion, that -they should be taken from the work of cutting pit-props and cordwood and put to work cutting pulpwood. Well, I recognize the need for pulpwood, but I think it is far more important to ensure, as far as we can, adequate supplies of fuel for our people next winter. I think that is more important than putting men, who might be doing that work, at the job of cutting pulpwood so that the size of newspapers may be maintained, and I think that would be the judgment of the country.
Under this vote -I think I might make this explanation. The Department of Mines and Resources does not allocate these men. That is done now by the Department of Labour, under national selective service. When the problem with respect to conscientious objectors arose much earlier it was recognized, and 1 believe public opinion supported this view, that they should be put at useful work. Some of them were put to work in the parks. Others were put to work in building a section of the trans-Canada highway, in northern Ontario. That is connected with one of the votes we are now considering. They were given various tasks of that kind. But as the situation developed they were transferred from this work, much of which was considered not particularly essential, and put at more essen-

War Appropriation-Mines and Resources
tial work. A year ago they were sent to British Columbia for the purpose of building roads, lookout stations, and the general development of the fire protection service in the forests of British Columbia. Lately they have been sent to agricultural labour. Some of them, particularly in western Alberta, have been cutting pit-props for use in the mines. Generally speaking they have been doing useful work of that kind.
We were asked by the Department of Labour, and prior to that by the Department of National War Services, to supervise the work of a number of these men. So far as this vote was concerned, that was put under our surveys and engineering branch, and they were put to work building part of a section of the trans-Canada highway in northern Ontario. There were 202 engaged in that work at the end of February. That number has dwindled to practically nothing. I note here that 96 have been sent to the neighbour-, hood of Elmira, Ontario, for agricultural work, and 77 to the Chatham district. So that today there are no conscientious objectors engaged in road construction in northern Ontario. They have been sent to other work, in agriculture. That is the policy which has been followed generally.
It is quite possible that next winter we may have to provide work for a number of these conscientious objectors. Probably they will be employed in the cutting of cordwood, or whatever other useful work they can do. But I doubt if parliament would get much support from the country if we were to say that the cutting of pulpwood to maintain ordinary supplies of newsprint was more important than, for instance, getting out fuel, and that sort of thing.
The hon. member also made reference to the need for foreign exchange, and read an extract published by the bureau of statistics in 1940. There is no question that in 1940, particularly the early part of it, our exchange situation vis-a-vis the United States was one that gave some concern. But that picture has changed altogether and, as my hon. friend probably knows, for the last year or more the exchange problem with the United States has not given the government any worry at all. Indeed there was a time when we thought we were accumulating too much American exchange in Canada. I believe that was the result, largely, of war orders placed by the United States with Canadian factories. The work these conscientious objectors are now doing on farms in Ontario and elsewhere is of first importance.


John George Diefenbaker: No one has suggested that the men should not be utilized for the purpose of getting out firewood, or that that was not an important piece of work.
I have referred to the expenditure in connection with conscientious objectors, and it is one which runs into a tremendous amount of money. I would ask the minister this simple question: How many cords of wood did conscientious objectors get out in the last year? An answer to that question would tell whether or not this expenditure, running around a quarter of a million dollars, has been justified.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot answer the hon. member's question offhand. I know that as to conscientious objectors under the direction of the Department of Mines and Resources we could get that information. I believe I am correct in saying, however, that there has been a considerable amount of cordwood cut in some of the national parks, for use next winter. However, if the hon. member wants the information I believe I can get an estimate for him.


Mr. ADAMSON:: The minister said this party had made no suggestions. I shall make one, in connection with this item for the cutting of wood. The first suggestion I make is that the government remove that part of the National Resources Mobilization Act limiting service to the western hemisphere. I do that for this reason. We are bound to see a further reduction-and in my opinion the reduction has not yet started-in the size of newspapers. As the man-power situation gets tighter, and it is bound to get tighter, we are going to see all our newspapers, particularly the big revenue-producing papers, like the Toronto Star Weekly, and the Sunday editions of American papers, greatly curtailed *because of a lack of newsprint. That is inevitable; I do not see how it can be avoided. It is like the invasion of Europe; it is one of the things which in my view is bound to happen. We need our pulpwood for direct war purposes. We need our cellulose for explosives. We are faced, as I see it with the problem of having to say to the American publishers, "I am sorry; we cannot supply you with newsprint." Then the American publishers will say to us, "Why have you a home defence army?" They will say, "You could supply us with newsprint if you did not have that army."


The CHAIRMAN:: If I may be allowed to interject, the hon. member for Lake Centre thanked the committee for allowing him to make his statement this morning. I do not believe this discussion is in order. The manpower question was dealt with several times in the present session, and if the hon. member wishes to speak on that subject he will have an opportunity when we get into supply. I am sure the Minister of Mines and Resources cannot answer some of the questions put to him at the present time.
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War Appropriation-Mines and Resources


Agar Rodney Adamson: I am simply answering the Minister of Mines and Resources, who said that no suggestions with regard to man-power had been made from this side of the house. At this time, with a market for every ton of newsprint for advertising purposes, a market more profitable than ever existed before, in my opinion we in Canada are in an inferior position, an intolerable position, with regard to American journals, unless we can say, "We cannot supply you with this newsprint because every individual is doing his utmost, under the same conditions as your men are, to win the war." That is my suggestion and that is all I have to say to the minister.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: Could the
minister give us some information with regard to this particular item? First, I should like the total number of men in these alternative service camps. I understand him to say that there were still 400 in British Columbia, but I should like to have the total for all Canada. Next, I should like to know if any of the men in these camps are doing work other than that of taking out fuel wood and cutting pit-props. I have in mind particularly whether any work is still being carried on in the national parks. In the correspondence I have had with the men in these camps there is no complaint that they are working too hard; there is no objection to that, but that they feel they are doing non-essential work. I have in mind that they are engaged, I believe, in putting in ski jumps or something of the sort in Banff national park, and in building roads in Prince Albert national park to attract tourist traffic. I agree with the minister that that sort of work is not very essential, and I think the committee will agree generally that these men should be doing more essential work.
I should like some information with respect ;o the wages and maintenance costs of these nen. I understood the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross) to say he was under the impression that the men were getting 50 cents a day as pay and $2.50 as maintenance.
I could hardly credit that, and I should like a statement from the minister. An amount of $2.50 a day seems amazing for maintenance only, as the army is able to maintain men for $1 or less per day. The lumber companies call for tenders for the board and lodging of their men, and it is usually recognized that this can be done for $1 or $1.25 a day. I think it is a disgrace that we should pay a man only 50 cents a day and then expect him to buy clothing, work gloves, work shoes, overalls and things of the kind which are necessary for this sort of work. If [The Chairman.]
these men are doing a proper day's work, and I assume they are-the government ought to see to it that they do a day's work- they should be paid more than 50 cents a day. If they are working in the field or in the lumber camps or for private concerns they would get much better pay than that. I do not want to see these men coddled, but I do want to see them given fair pay for a fair day's work and not be penalized because of any particular views they may hold.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My latest figures are for May 31. I wish to make it clear that these-are men in the lands, -parks and forest branch, of the Department of Mines and Resources. On May 31 there were 106 at Banff, 56 at Jasper and 82 at Kootenay. I think I am correct in saying that these men were mainly engaged in the cutting of pit-props and cordwood, although there was one lumbering operation, and of course lumber is a ' scarce commodity. In Prince Albert there were 11, and in Riding Mountain there were 35. I think the 35 men in Riding Mountain park were all engaged in cutting cordwood. Their remuneration is 50 cents per day, and there is an allowance of 56 cents a day for provisions, which I assume would cover board and lodging. There is an allowance of 6 cents a day for medical and dental services, and 71 cents a day for administration expenses, including supervision of camps and personnel and also repair of equipment and purchase of materials and supplies other than provisions, which would cover axes, saws and that sort of thing. For the period under review the total cost per man was $1.83 per day. Mr. Chairman, which item are we considering?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: We are taking together the three items covering alternative service work camps.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: A moment ago I gave the number of the men in the surveys and engineering branch. The number of men employed on road work in northern Ontario as at February 28 was 202. I think almost without, exception these men have all been absorbed into agricultural labour; instead of working on the roads in northern Ontario, they are working on farms. They receive the same wages, 50 cents a day plus their keep. I have not the board and lodging expenses in this case. The straw boss, I assume, the man who looks after a group, also a conscientious objector, is paid 75 cents a day.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Am I to take it from the minister's remarks that all these men are either cutting pit-props or cordwood?

War Appropriation-Mines and Resources


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think that is correct. There may be some lumbering operations going on in one of the western parks.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: How is the
cordwood disposed of? Is it sold to private companies for resale to the public, or does the government use it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: According to my information the cordwood is sold to municipalities and others under tender.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The minister did not answer the question I asked with respect to the wages paid these men. I do not know where you could hire labour in Canada for 50 cents a day. If these men are just out on a picnic, not doing much work, the government may feel that 50 cents a day is all right, but I cannot imagine that the government would go to the trouble of setting up these camps without seeing that they got a good day's work from the men. It seems to me that if we are facing up to the situation and saying to these men, " You must do some service for the state," a fair remuneration should be paid. If a man has certain views which he feels preclude him from doing military service, he ought to do some kind1 of service but he ought not to be penalized. We have no right to say to a man, " Under our constitution you have the right to hold certain views, but we reserve the right to punish you for having those views." If we are going to say to a man that he has a right to alternative service, then we have a responsibility to see that he is properly paid for that service.
When I was in Toronto some weeks ago I came across the case of a man who was a Quaker, a member of the Society of Friends. As the minister knows, for centuries these people have been averse to bearing arms. This man was married and he was to be sent to an alternative service camp and paid 50 cents a day. He had a family, and he just did not know what to do. In a case like that the government would be justified in paying -.a dependents' allowance to the man's wife. Does the government do that, and if not, why not? On what basis is this 50 cents a day being paid as a wage for the kind of work these men are doing?	.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This 50 cents a day
remuneration was decided upon when the administration of the conscientious objectors was under the Department of National War Services. When these men are called up, if they are able to make a case for themselves as conscientious objectors they are allowed to do alternative service work, as it is described in this vote. It is one of these matters in
which public opinion has an important bearing. If a young fellow proves to the tribunal that he is a conscientious objector and then you said to him, "You go and work on this job at $5 a day" there would be a great deal of criticism from the public. It is a question of arriving at what is fair and reasonable.
I cannot say definitely whether conscientious objectors who are working on the farm get higher pay than those who are working on government jobs, because, I repeat, the Department of Mines and Resources is simply the agent of another department of the government in supervising the work of a number of these men. When they leave us to go to agricultural labour we have no further supervision over them, and I cannot tell my hon. friend what scale of wages they receive when they are put at other work.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I am not going to press the point, because I agree with the minister that conscientious objectors come under other departments. But he is an important member of the government, and I would ask him to use what influence he has with the other ministers who are responsible for administering these camps, because it looks to me like a piece of refined persecution to pay men 50 cents a day on this class of work. I agree that there would be a terriffic outcry from the public if you paid them $5 a day, but there is a happy medium. These men could be paid the equivalent of what is paid to men working in the bush, and they should be paid enough at least to pay for their clothing. When talking with some of them I have been told that it takes a lot of overalls and work clothes to do the kind of work they are doing. They should be paid enough so that they will not feel they are being imposed on because of their beliefs. I would ask the minister to consider seriously making some provision for the families oi any of these men who are married, because certainly their families should not suffer because they hold a particular point of view


[Stage Direction]
Items agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch-Prince Rupert-Terrace-Cedarvale highway, $5,000,000.
Angus MacInnis: Is this $5,000,000 the
expenditure for this year, and what was the expenditure last year on the road, if any? Who are the contractors, and on what basis is the work being done? What kind of contract is it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The work was undertaken on the recommendation of the Canada-United States joint defence board when there was great urgency to get this work done. A reconnaissance survey was made by engineers
5238	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Mines and Resources
of the surveys and engineering branch of the Department of Mines and Resources. Then firms were asked to tender. As I recall it, there was no public advertisement inviting firms to tender, but all the large contracting firms in Canada were invited to tender, and the basis on which they were invited to tender was unit prices, so much per cubic yard for removing earth, so much per cubic yard for removing rock, and so forth. The work was broken .down into various classifications upon which they would tender. Some eight or ten firms tendered. The work was divided into eight sections of from eleven to eighteen miles each, and competitive tenders were received from at least two contractors for each section.
The surveys and engineering branch had a considerable amount of data in their records as to the costs of road construction in country similar to the Prince Rupert-Terraee country. For instance, several years ago we built the Big Bend highway in British Columbia, and later built a road between Jasper and Banff. So that there was a great deal of information in the department to serve as a guide to what fair costs would be. That information was brought up to date so far as possible by ascertaining the costs of clearing airfields where similar work had to be done.
The tenders were received and the work was started about the middle of June, 1942. It was hoped that it could be completed by the end of last year, but the contractor ran into very considerable difficulty. There was difficulty, for instance, in keeping labour on the work. The wages paid were set by the war labour board, but there was competition for labour, as hon. members know. I think the member for Vancouver East is aware that extensive work was being carried on by the United States authorities in northwestern Canada and that it took some time to get labour difficulties ironed out. For one reason it was difficult, even after -wages were set by the war labour board, to hold men on the work. In addition, there were serious difficulties in carrying on the work in autumn and winter because of rain and snow. Moreover, a section of the road runs very close to the railway. At any rate, for a variety of reasons of which I have given a few, the work did not make the progress which it was anticipated it would make. Last year there was spent on the highway $2,964,000, that is, for the fiscal year to March 31. The vote we are asking for now, it is expected, will complete it.
I should like to emphasize how difficult it is, under all the fortuitous conditions which exist, to make estimates that are accurate. I asked the director of the surveys and engineer-
ing branch, "Do you feel pretty certain that the vote asked for here will complete this work?" He said, "Yes, I think it will, but conditions may arise which will vary it; it might be 10 per cent under or 10 per cent over." But I would hesitate to give even that figure to the committee as a final figure. All I can say is that in the face of very great difficulties the work has progressed and it is expected that some time this autumn the road will be open for, at any rate, fairly light vehicles.


Angus MacInnis: I hope the minister will understand that I am not criticizing at all at the moment; I am trying to get information.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Quite


Angus MacInnis: I realize that there was great urgency for the road in this particular area, after Pearl Harbor. The communications between Prince Rupert and the country to the east might, under the conditions which prevailed, have been closed altogether. However, the minister did not tell me who the successful contractors were in the first instance, and if these same contractors are carrying on at the present time.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should mention that many of these contractors had to be secured in eastern Canada. Contracts were awarded as follows: section 1, to E. J. Ryan Construction Company Limited, Vancouver; section 2, Rayner Construction, Limited, Leaside, Ontario; section 3, Tomlinson Construction Company Limited, Toronto, Ontario-who have also an office in western Canada; section 4, Standard Paving, Limited, Toronto, Ontario; section 5, MacNamara Construction Company Limited, Leaside, Ontario; section 6, Dufferin Paving Company Limited, Toronto, Ontario; section 7, General Construction Company Limited, Vancouver, B.C.; section 8, E. J. Ryan Construction Company Limited, Vancouver, B.C, Ryans tendered and got two sections.
In regard to the other question asked by my hon. friend: some of the contractors have not been able to complete their contracts. In one or two cases they have given up the contract and it has been taken on for their particular section by one of the other firms, and in one instance, by another firm, the Northern Construction company and W. J. Stewart Limited. I am not certain where their head office is, but I think it is in Vancouver.


Mr. STIRLING:: Was the Ryan company one of those who gave up the contract and whose contract was taken over by another firm?

War Appropriation-Mines and Resources


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, the Ryan company was one of those. I do not know whether it was the only one or not. It had two sections, and arrangements had to be made, I believe, on both.


Angus MacInnis: I understand that after the Ryan company gave up the work, I think for financial reasons, two companies, possibly interlocking companies, known as the Highway Construction Limited and the I. C. Construction Company Limited of Vancouver took over the contract; but I understand that later the contract was sublet to a United States company, the Murphy Company of Washington or Oregon. Has the minister information on that point?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, we have no knowledge to that effect.


Mr. MacNICOL:: I understand now that approximately $2,900,000 has already been spent-


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Up to March 31 last.


John Ritchie MacNicol: -and another five million dollars is asked for to complete the work. A year ago, if I recollect aright, we were told that the whole of the work would cost approximately $5,000,000; so that it is running much more than was anticipated.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is correct. I repeat what I said a moment ago, that when the work was undertaken it was impossible-


John Ritchie MacNicol: Oh, the difficulties were immense.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: -to give anything in the nature of a detailed estimate. Sometimes engineers are optimistic as to the costs of works undertaken.


John Ritchie MacNicol: They like to get the work started.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Well, I will leave that
observation to my hon. friend. At any rate the difficulties were almost insuperable, and it is not surprising to me that the actual cost will be substantially higher than the estimated cost. But it was represented that the work was necessary and urgent, and we tried to meet those conditions.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am not opposing it; I
think it is essential work; I am glad it is going on, and I hope that when it is completed the minister will try to organize the continuation of the road through the mountains so that there will be some connection between east of the Rocky mountains and the coast through northern British Columbia. It passes my comprehension that at present there
is no way of getting through from east of the Rocky mountains in the Peace river area to the coast by road or by rail direct.


Angus MacInnis: The minister said that
sometimes engineers are optimistic. I have always found engineers very conservative, but I also found contractors, when government money was concerned, extremely reckless.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The estimates of cost
which we gave a year ago were based on information supplied by engineers. I do not criticize the engineers for that.


Angus MacInnis: I am not criticizing them.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I made clear at that time
the difficulty of making precise estimates of cost, because we were going into an uncharted sea, so to speak, and the work had to be pushed with the greatest speed. Had it taken five years to do it, the cost would have been substantially reduced.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.
Employment of persons of the Japanese race and/or Japanese nationals, $2,200,000'.
Grote Stirling: One piece of employment that comes under this item is the work on the Hope-Princeton road in British Columbia. That is a road the completion of which has been greatly desired for many a long day. At the Hope end the royal engineers sent out in 1862 from Chatham to New Westminster began, the making of the road, but there has not been communication through. From the Princeton end spasmodic work has been carried on for many years, and now a road of sorts exists from one end for about fifty miles. There is a gap then of about ten miles through which there is not even a trail. The Japanese have been used in gangs to further this work, and at the Princeton end they have done a certain amount of valuable work in renovating the road as they found it and putting it in usable condition. A party of business men from Princeton recently made a trip all the way from Princeton to Hope and have reported on what they saw. They realize, as I do, and as everyone does, that to provide road machinery at a time like this is no easy matter. The provincial government has supplied some, but it is pretty old machinery and is forever breaking down. Still, progress has been made at the Princeton end. But when they clambered through the gap and came out on the

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road which ends in Hope they found that the work which the Japanese gangs were supposed to be doing was, to put it mildly, going extremely slowly. Can the minister give the committee any information with regard to the amount of work which it is hoped will be available from these gangs of Japanese labourers, and whether it is possible to hasten progress at the western end?


Mr. REID:: Serious allegations have been made regarding the conduct of the men in Tashme camp. As pointed out by the hon. member who has just spoken, a group of board of trade members, hearing reports of what was going on in regard to the work done by the Japanese, made a tour from Vancouver, Chilliwack and other points to investigate the matter fully. There were quite a number in the party and this is what they saw. I quote:
Out of 800 males in the camp . . . not more than 100 are working at any one time on the completion of the Hope-Princeton road from the coast end.
"The Japs were sitting on the side of the road. They all scrambled to their feet when they saw a car approaching. There should be at least a good foreman bossing each gang," reported Frank Hall at the dinner meeting here in Chilliwack.
Speaking of the Tashme camp, Earl Brett declared:	"Men were hanging around the
corners in town. On the road there was nobody bossing the job. Every gang was sitting down."
"We only saw one truck actually working," Mr. Hall added. "We saw one shovel in action. That was all the road building in operation."
They give credit to the workers on the other end of the highway where they say good work is being done by the Japanese. As regards the work done at this end of the highway, the men at Tashme camp are having a sit-down strike. In view of the large appropriation, $2,200,000, I think, a full statement should be made as to what these men are paid and how the work is carried on. Not long ago we passed an estimate of $500,000 to provide wages for Japanese to cut wood. About fifty per cent of the Japanese have been removed from British Columbia. In other words we have a total of $2,700,000 for wages for a relatively small number of men. We are entitled therefore to know how these men are paid, what control is kept over the Japanese, and what truth there is in this story, and in the story which has been given publicity in Vancouver and Fraser Valley that only one hundred men out of eight hundred are working and that these Japanese are hanging around the towns with no one in charge. It is a serious allegation, and the committee is entitled to a full explanation.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: When was that report made?


Thomas Reid: July 9.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think there must be some error in the report. As at July 3, 1943, there were 123 Japanese employed on the Hope end of the Hope-Princeton road and 164 on the Princeton end, or a total of 287 Japanese at work at that time. So that the report that there were 800 working is not correct.


Thomas Reid: I did not say that. The report is that out of 800 men only 100 were employed at one time.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know about that. Better progress has been made at Princeton than at the other end. At present 73 miles of road are passable, with some 16 miles yet to be completed. Some preliminary work has been done on this 16 miles. It is hoped that this gap can be brought into fair condition this season. In regard to the wages paid the Japanese, the following classes receive the amounts indicated: Labourers, 25 cents an hour; labour and first-aid men, 30 cents an hour; straw boss, 30 cents an hour; axe men, 30 cents an hour; blacksmiths, 30 cents an hour; driller by hand, 30 cents an hour; carpenters, 35 cents an hour. Cooks receive from $50 to $60 a month with subsistence, depending on the number of men in the camp. The men are charged 75 cents a day for meals and living quarters and $1 a month for medical attention. The 75 cents would have to be deducted from their daily earnings.


Thomas Reid: How many men are to be
employed? The appropriation is rather large.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Last year the expenditures to March 31 for administration here and in the field was a little over $8,000. There was spent on the Hope-Princeton road $358,000. I have not the break-down to show how much was spent on each end of the road, but that was the total on the project. There were several other projects in British Columbia. There were the Yellowhead-Blue River road and the Revelstoke-Sicamous road, and a number of these Japanese were taken to northern Ontario to do work in the Schreiber district. The total number employed in all these projects in British Columbia and Ontario on June 5 was 827.


Thomas Reid: I still say that the appropriation is a large one, $2,200,000 for roughly one thousand men.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There has been a general reduction in the number of Japanese employed on these projects. Some of them have gone to

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logging campa or lumbering operations, and I believe an additional number, though I am not certain of this, were taken to Manitoba to work in the sugar beet fields. At any rate that was the number employed on all these projects as of June 5.
As to the other point raised by the hon. member for New Westminster, quite frankly I do not think we can get out of these Japanese, with the conditions under which they are working, the amount of work they should do. There is no doubt there are certain difficulties in reaching that objective, and those difficulties are rather hard to contend with. Ordinarily, when you have labour employed on a road project, if the men are malingering on the job you very quickly dispense with their services. But we cannot dispense with the services of the Japanese because they are not there primarily to build roads; they are there under a form of detention, and under those circumstances we just have to make the best of it. Taking the projects as a whole I think there has been a reasonable amount of satisfactory work done.


Thomas Reid: What provision is made for the keep of those in camps who do not work, do they keep themselves? There are numbers in the camps who are not working. Do they provide for themselves, or are they paid so much for cutting wood and doing chores around their own camps?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If they do not work they are not paid. They have to be provided with food, and their living conditions have to be up to a certain standard. As I recall now, on a few occasions the Japanese protecting power in Canada, which I believe is Spain, has made an examination of the conditions in these camps for report back to the Japanese government. Quite properly we have to maintain as far as possible the provisions of international conventions dealing with matters of this kind.


Grote Stirling: It is obvious that there is no use paying them money if they do not work.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Assistance to national advisory committee for children from overseas, to supplement funds the committee has obtained by public appeal, $75,000.
Gordon Graydon: Are any children still coming to this country from Britain under the government-sponsored scheme which was in operation some time ago?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, there have been no children come under the sponsored scheme
since the summer of 1940. Some 1,500 children came out under that scheme, in addition to several thousand who came to Canada under private arrangements. Just here I should like to pay a tribute to the Oddfellows of Canada and other private organizations and individuals which have subscribed generously for the maintenance of these children. From these sources over $52,000 has come to the department, of which $30,800 came from the Oddfellows. Not long ago I had the pleasure of having handed to me by the hon. member for Lincoln, the grand treasurer of the order, a cheque for $7,500, as I recall it, which was the third or fourth contribution made to this cause by the Oddfellows. It is a pleasure to pay this tribute to the very fine interest the Oddfellows, particularly in Ontario, have manifested in the welfare of these children.


Gordon Graydon: It is a well-deserved tribute.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide single minimum cost of transportation, ocean and rail, of wives and dependents of members of the Canadian forces overseas, $100,000.
Gordon Graydon: Under what circumstances is this money expended, and who are entitled to come under this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Last year $50,000 was released from the war appropriation for this purpose, of which $20,213.83 was spent. Many of our soldiers who have gone overseas have married in Britain; I believe the total of such marriages now exceeds eight thousand. Occasionally some of those soldiers are returned to Canada, and this money is to provide transportation to this country for their dependents. I do not know how much of it will be required.


Gordon Graydon: Is that a matter of right or a matter of policy or what?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is a matter of policy on the part of the government. We have kept a pretty strict control, for which we have received some criticism, over dependents in Canada going to join men of the services in Britain.


Gordon Graydon: Does the government pay those expenses, in any case?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have not permitted them to go. Hon. members may recall that at the end of the last war more than fifty thousand wives and dependents had to be brought back from Britain at public expense. It was not only the matter of the expense; there was also a very serious shortage in transportation facilities. In this w-ar soldiers' wives
5242	COMMONS
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.have not been permitted to go to Britain to join their husbands; I cannot think that there have been any exceptions to that rule. On the other hand, as I stated a moment ago, many of our soldiers married in Britain, and naturally when they return to Canada they want their wives and dependents to come with them. This item is to cover that expense.


Gordon Graydon: As I understand it, this vote is to be used to bring the wives and dependents to Canada when members of our armed forces are transferred to this country?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. In some cases they are discharged.


Mr. QUELOH:: What class of transportation is provided? Is it tourist on the trains and second-class boat passage for other ranks, and first-class for officers and their wives?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand it is the same rate as applies in the army. The explanation I have states that this is to provide for single minimum cost transportation, by ocean and rail, of the wives and dependents of members of the Canadian forces.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for ocean and rail fares and other expenses of Canadian citizens who are being returned from the far east, $100,000.
Thomas Langton Church: This is the first opportunity this session that the committee has had to discuss immigration within the empire.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Thomas Langton Church: Before the session closes we should have a return to a question asked with respect to the government's policy on immigration, not only as it affects those returning from the far east as citizens but also the wives and families of soldiers, and British and other soldiers who would come to this country. It is due the country that we have some announcement before the close of the session. What is the government going to do about the immigration question?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Thomas Langton Church: I am asking for a general statement before the house closes. You can bang your desks all you like, and go home; but I have the floor and I am entitled to be heard. I have been asking the government since January 27 about immigration, but I have not been able to get an answer. A return was tabled yesterday but only one question was answered. If the minister cannot answer to-day he may bring down his answer on the general estimates before the house closes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Soldier settlement-Alaska highway, legal and survey fees, fencing and miscellaneous, $13,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Whereabouts on the
Alaska highway is this work being done?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This vote is to cover the expenses incidental to the acquiring of a right of way, and also the acquiring of land for the extension of airport facilities. I believe there have been one or two other items required for the United States government. For instance, there has been the necessity to acquire land for warehouse purposes, for the storage of equipment and that sort of thing. Then there was some fencing, some damage claims and survey costs incurred last year. The appropriation for last year was $105,000. Of that amount $27,890 was spent in the last fiscal year, leaving an unliquidated encumbrance of $77,109. I am advised we will require a further appropriation, in addition to the amount mentioned here. I should like the committee to have a clear picture of what has happened. The amount of around $77,000, to which we were committed, will have to be provided, because the vote lapsed on March 31. That amount will be provided from the general war appropriation. These estimates were prepared many weeks prior to March 31. There were delays in connection with acquiring title to these lands, and having the legal details attended to, and the result was that the payments were not made before March 31.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Why were
the payments made under a soldier settlement vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The soldier settlement
board had experienced men in this kind of work. They were given the job of acquiring the right of way and getting these additional properties.


John Ritchie MacNicol: There have not been any fences erected along the line of the Alaska highway. Does this apply to the supplying of fences north of Fort St. John, where the Alaska highway runs through certain farms for perhaps twenty-five miles?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Most of this expense is
between Dawson Creek and Fort St. John.


John Ritchie MacNicol: North of Fort St. John.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Between those two places.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And north of that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That would be included in this vote also. North of Fort St. John is pretty much crown land. But between Dawson Creek and Fort St. John there is a fairly well established settlement. In many instances the road

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is cut through private property. Right of way had to be secured; settlement had to be made and titles cleared.


John Ritchie MacNicol: So that it does cover
some miles north of Fort St. John?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I understand that the
government built fences, and the money is for the construction of those fences?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Sundry services, $78,000.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.
Hon. ERNEST BERTRAND (Minister of
Fisheries): Thank you.


Mr. MICHAUD:: No runs, no hits, no
' errors.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Corps of (civilian) Canadian fire-fighters for the United Kingdom, $957,850.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Could the minister tell us something about the origin and organization of this corps of fire-fighters and what work they are doing in the old country?
Hon. L. R. LaFLECHE (Minister of National War Services): I am proud to be able to speak for this worthwhile corps. Such a corps was asked for by the government of the United Kingdom when the Prime Minister was in England. After discussing the matter at some length with the national fire service of the British Isles it was decided that a corps of 400 men, all ranks, would be organized in Canada and sent to the United Kingdom to assist the national fire service. The need of this corps arose from the fact that there were numerous and terrible bombing raids by the German air force which was committing horrible atrocities upon many of the large cities and the countryside of Great Britain. The corps was authorized by an order in council passed in March, 1942, and the first detachment left Canada in May of the same year. Subsequently, as accommodation was available, other detachments followed, and the entire corps was in the British Isles last year.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: How many?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Four hundred. This corps was recruited with the assistance of the fire chiefs of Canada, who took a paternal interest in it because of their profession. I saw each
detachment as it left Ottawa for the British Isles, and I was struck with the fine physique of the men and with the evident results of the .training they had received in Canada. I told each detachment that I felt that they would be a credit to this country.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Were they all fairly well
trained?
Mr. LaFLECHE: About two-thirds of the men had had practical fire-fighting experience in Canada, ariS the majority of that two-thirds were members of permanent fire-fighting brigades. A number of men were members of volunteer fire-fighting brigades which are to be found in some of the provinces. The training that these men had obtained stood them and the corps in good stead. Before these men left Canada we took care to make certain that each individual was trained to look after himself and knew of the danger into which he was going. Each man received instructions on gas protection and other matters. The perils of the voyage over and of life in Great Britain were explained to each member of the corps, and felt certain that no member of it would suffer because of ignorance of what the enemy might do to him. When they arrived in Great Britain they were sent immediately to a pool operated by the national fire service and put in a month's training at a school operated by that service. Then followed a period of four months when the men were placed on active service in national fire service stations throughout the British isles. In this way the men obtained practical experience. When all the members had received this training on the ground under the supervision of the national fire service, action stations were allotted to the Canadian fire-fighting corps. The men are now scattered among four stations in Great Britain located at points where the danger is the greatest. Fortunately they have not been under fire very often because, thank God, the raids have diminished. But they have done their duty and have shown the benefits of their training. Friendly competitions have been held between the two services in the laying of hose, raising of ladders and other exercises, and our men have shown that they are fully capable of doing their duty.


John Ritchie MacNicol: How are they taken care of if they are wounded, or what is done for their dependents if they are killed?
Mr. LaFLECHE: If the members of this corps are injured or killed, they or their dependents receive the identical benefits as paid to members of the armed forces in similar circumstances.

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Mr. HAZEN:: What are they paid?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Exactly the same as similar ranks in the army.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I understand that some of these men are conscientious obj ectors.
Mr. LaFLECHE: They are.	'


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: 
Mr. McCANN:: Are the fire-fighters' dependents entitled to the same allowance and pension as the dependents of members of the armed forces?
Mr. LaFLECHE:	Precisely the same.
They fall under the Pension Act.


Thomas Langton Church: Four hundred Canadian fire-fighters all told is a very small number even for one city, let alone in a country like England. They are a very fine lot of officers. From what provinces do they come? Do the municipalities continue to give them their pay as firemen? What functions do these four hundred men perform in the old country to-day as compared with the days of heavy bombing of English towns in 1940 and 1941, when they surely were needed? Surely there is not the same demand for their services as fire-fighters now. In some of the cities and towns of England I understand that the women's army and the general armies do part of this work and thereby release men for the armed forces. There should be a statement from the minister as to the future of this corps for the rest of the war, the functions they are now performing, the length of the leave given them by their local municipalities and when they will return.
Mr. LaFLECHE: The hon. member has asked some interesting questions, and I shall be pleased to answer them as best I can in the order of their sequence. He made the statement that in England women were doing the work of fire-fighters. All glory to the women there and elsewhere who are helping 
to beat the enemy, but I suggest that, although there are always glorious exceptions, the women's activities in this field in Britain are in the main those of observers. I do not say that they have not been fighting fires, but generally speaking the women in Great Britain are used in this field as observers to watch for the approach of the dastardly enemy. The Canadian boys are and have been for many months stationed in some of the worst spots in the British Isles, those most exposed to possible enemy action.
The horn, member brought up an interesting point when he asked what would be done with this corps between now and the end of the war. That is a matter that has received and is receiving consideration. Some time ago inquiry was made of the proper authorities in Great Britain to survey the situation with a view to our possibly being able to employ their services otherwise in view of our limited man-power. I do not mean to say that we are necessarily going to disband this corps, but I think it is proper to say in reply to the hon. gentleman that should the fire-fighting services of Great Britain advise the Canadian authorities that the probabilities of action of the kind that existed when this corps was formed- and sent over have greatly diminished, it may be necessary to consider taking some action with respect to the members of this corps. But may I say that Canada will never forget the fact that these men volunteered for a service considered then to be as dangerous as that performed by any human being in the British Isles, whether in uniform or not. Most of the members of the corps were members of city fire brigades, and with the experience they have gained in Great Britain I have always thought that when they returned they would make splendid fire chiefs in a great many of our cities in the future. A total of 107 municipalities supplied the 400 members of the corps.


Mr. HATFIELD:: From what provinces?
Mr. LaFLECHE: They came from two municipalities in Nova Scotia, one in Prince Edward Island, 4 in New Brunswick, 14 in Quebec, 63 in Ontario, 4 in Manitoba, 10 in Saskatchewan, 4 in Alberta and 5 in British Columbia. So that it can fairly be said that this is a national corps.


Thomas Langton Church: Who is in charge of them in the old country? Is it the municipal authorities?
Mr. LaFLECHE: No.


Thomas Langton Church: Who is the commanding officer?

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Mr. LaFLECHE: Chief Huff. He was formerly the officer in command of one of the fire-fighting corps of the Royal Canadian Air Force and now commands the Canadian Fire-fighters Corps. We all know that the Royal Canadian Air Force has its own firefighting organization, with different ranks. Before that, Chief Huff was fire chief of Brantford, and a very successful fire chief too, as instanced by the great success of his brigade in competition with those from other cities all across Canada and the United States. He has had a remarkable record of success in that regard.


Heber Harold Hatfield: How many men from each province comprise the Canadian firefighting corps?
Mr. LaFLECHE: From Nova Scotia 5, Prince Edward Island 3, New Brunswick 4, Quebec 30, Ontario 287, Manitoba 27, Saskatchewan 22, Alberta 12 and British Columbia 32.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is it the intention of this department to provide some sort of decoration or recognition for these men when they return to distinguish them as having served in the fire-fighting branch of the armed services?
Mr. LaFLECHE: May I thank the hon. member for that suggestion. He will not feel hurt if I tell him that we have already had the same thought. It is too early just now to give a definite answer to my hon. friend, but I can assure him that the matter will not be lost sight of.


Thomas Langton Church: When men are needed in the armed forces, according to our own ministers, are you going to continue this policy? Did the corps take any equipment over with them? Is the minister aware that in Britain the military authorities have power to summon troops of all kinds in case of fire? As to the four hundred fire-fighters from all over Canada, all good men, I think it is time, in view of our man-power shortage, to revise the programme and give some consideration to the taxpayer.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I have already stated twice this afternoon that the matter is under study and that I am awaiting another report from the authorities in Great Britain.


Mr. EVANS:: Is it possible for the men in the fire-fighters corps to be transferred to the armed forces if they are physically fit and of military age?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Yes. Instructions have been issued permitting them to do so, because some have expressed such a desire.
I might add that the commanding officer was instructed that he might even encourage such transfers.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Censorship division-
General, $19,000.
Information and records branch, $174,900.
Postal censorship, $1,070,800.
Censorship of publications, $127,400.
Telegraph and cable, et cetera, censorship, $346,970.
Gordon Graydon: This item brings to the committee one of the most important parts of the war appropriation resolution outside of the armed services and matters closely connected with the prosecution of the war. Censorship is a subject which has been engaging the attention not only of the government, but of parliament and the Canadian people. Many things must be done in time of war which will definitely interfere with the peace-time freedoms and liberties of our people, and we take that for granted, having agreed to and voted for participation in war. But the public are as jealous as ever of their rights, their freedoms and liberties with respect to interferences which may come to them in the ordinary course of civilian life, and they take a keen and active interest in censorship. The opening of mail, the tapping of telephones, the inhibitions placed upon the press, and now also upon the radio, as envisaged in the latest directive of the board of censors -these matters demand that on an occasion such as this there should be full disclosure of the policy of the government with respect to interference with the rights of the subject in Canada and its relationship to the war effort.
It has been said many times, but it will bear repetition, that so long as the public is satisfied-and it is the duty of the government to satisfy the public on this point-that these inhibitions and prohibitions and other interferences with personal liberty are in the interests of the war effort, the government can rely upon the public to support to the full the measures which are required. Therefore in bringing to the attention of the government certain features of the censorship, I do so in that smaller field, if I may so term it, wherein there is doubt whether the censorship has gone beyond the point required for security reasons and for the prosecution of the war, and has "slopped over", to use a street term, into a field where the rights of the public are unnecessarily curtailed.
The question of censorship, how far it should go, and alleged abuses of it, have been the subject of newspaper comment in various parts of Canada. I have no desire at this time to cite in extenso the comments made by

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those who are operating in the field of communications-I mean the press itself. But there has been some uneasiness, and it has given rise to expressions of opinion with respect to censorship of which the government must take cognizance. Recently there have been instances in which the press have taken grave issue on the matter of the extent to which these regulations, directives and orders have gone. Fuel was added to the flame when on June 22 of this year there appeared in one of the national newspapers, the Toronto Globe and Mail, a letter which seems to me unusually significant, because it came, not from a member of the public who is unacquainted with censorship and orders, but from one who has a lengthy and comprehensive knowledge of these matters. I wish to read a letter which was written by Doctor W. J. Edmondston Scott, M.A., who is cited as having been a censor in languages of central and western Europe between 1939 and 1942. This is what Doctor Scott has to say:
The forthright editorial on "Scandalous Censorship" in the issue of June 16 shows that the Globe and Mail still ranks ahead of its contemporaries in being "soond" in doctrine and unusually well informed. From an inside viewpoint it would appear that practically anyone who dares express an opinion on any subject, with or without a political flavour, can have his name put on government files, via the inquisitorial censorship, because of a multitude of topics covered by the regulations, rules and memoranda-from the premier's gossip at funerals down to the abuse of soap and towels. Many folks may say they don't care a hoot; but it's a different matter when some day they discover that, whether in search of jobs through employment or national selective or other government agencies, their chances of obtaining work or preferment, or perhaps the boot, may depend upon what information is listed against their names on file.
"Nation-wide indignation," as you call it, cannot fail to be aroused when Canadians learn the facts-especially employers who stand up against any pressure that may be brought against them to suppress information which is in the public interest to disclose; professional men with a regard for truth but whose freedom of opinion is restricted by inspired attacks in the press on public men and the intelligentsia; as well as the labouring classes, whose union leaders receive the same watchful attention as foreign spies.
And what shall one say of women who are carrying more than their share of the burdens of war? They, too, are taking a deeper interest in the problems of war and peace-a fact that needs no _ comment. Yet this Ottawa racket already visualizes the women of Canada as a potential menace to the principles of democratic government, which the editorial maintains are *being openly travestied by ministers who cling to "the delusion that they are Liberals."
The fact is the Liberal government sees the writing on the wall. It has ceased to trust the people of Canada, so the inquisition is now in full swing. So curious was the cabinet last year in the possibility of women organizing or federating their social and political clubs and IMr. Graydon.j
unions after the war, so as to make their voice heard in the national councils, that a special memorandum, dated May 1, 1942, was issued to examiners which said that:
These are the terms of the censorship regulations:
"All letters observed in the mails containing information regarding women's political activities in all parts of the world and women's activities in connection with post-war reconstruction should be specially submitted to this office and file reference C. 11292-38 quoted."
Reread in the light of the editorial, this should not appear as just another sample of petty politics but a deliberate and frontal attack on the rights and liberties of millions of women *who are being denied the freedom to express their opinions within the law, unless they care to risk the chances of being later penalized, from what the Minister of Justice has styled the "information in his hands."
Worthless gossip, maybe, but immensely potent for backstairs intimidation. Any argument that the cabinet's memorandum ordering the censors to inquire diligently into the private history of women able to express their political views on paper can be correlated to the government's will to victory is refuted by its post-war character.
I bring that to the attention of the house because it has been so widely commented upon in every section of Canada. It is a matter which has evoked interest, and that interest has arisen largely from the fact that this was not just an ordinary person, who knew nothing about censorship, who was writing. Since it has been placed before the public in many parts of Canada, I put it on the record in order that the government may have an opportunity, and the minister in particular, to show the people of Canada exactly where we stand in relation to the matters therein dealt with.
Throughout the country generally there is a disposition among the people to know what is going on behind the doors of censorship in Ottawa. There is a desire, and I believe a proper and well motivated desire, on the part of the public, if they are to have these regulations and these interferences, to be acquainted with the reasons therefor, and in all fairness they should know to what extent the regulations may properly go. It is not too much to ask, and I urge upon the minister that in his statement in reply this afternoon, to the extent that national security will permit, he open the door and acquaint this house and the Canadian people with the exact situation in the matter of censorship, thus clarifying matters and making for much greater confidence among the people.
It is not greatly to be wondered that the average layman is confused about the whole question of censorship. Most people regard censorship as just one of those extraordinary conditions that one must put up with, and

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they put up with it cheerfully so long as it is necessary for the safety of the state. But when regulations made by ministers of the crown are so interpreted on certain occasions as to indicate that they go very much further, in the minds at least of certain ministers of the crown, one cannot help feeling that the public may properly be excused if they entertain some fears about the extent to which censorship regulations and orders may be invoked. All hon. members, I believe, will recall that in one particular instance in this house, and' it is not so long ago, the Minister of Justice, after an inquiry had been made with regard to the statement of a candidate, a former member of this house, who was seeking office in a provincial contest, expressed his views as reported in Hansard. The candidate in question had made a statement which was allegedly controversial and which allegedly should not have been made against the judiciary of Canada, and a very enlightening reply with regard to censorship came from the Minister of Justice. The hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) had properly asked a question with regard to the incident. Let me read both question and answer so that there will be no dispute on the point. I quote' from Hansard of June 23 of this year at page 3930.
Since no one else has seen fit to do so I should like to direct a question to the Attorney General relating to a dispatch appearing on page 4 of the Toronto Globe and Mail of this morning. A former member of this house, an old parliamentarian and a lady with a keen sense of humour, is alleged to have stated in Kenora last night that "she had never met a progressive judge" and that "judges are all political heelers or they would not be judges." I am aware of the parliamentary rules, hut I want to say that many of these overworked judges have lost their sons in this war, and I think some statement ought to be made in this connection by the Minister of Justice.
Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Minister of Justice): My attention was directed to this short dispatch just a few moments ago. Certainly it is regrettable that declarations of this kind should be made by or attributed to persons so well known as Miss Macphail, who for a number of years was a member of this house. The statement is as unfortunate as it is unfounded. Declarations of this kind can have no other effect than to diminish the respect of the people for the administration of justice in this country, and as such they are most deplorable. I shall direct the attention of the censors to this dispatch, and see if arrangements cannot be made that publicity will not in future be available for matters of this kind.
The answer given by the Minister of Justice opens up in the public mind a whole avenue of questions, because if matters not pertaining to the war, matters which could not by the widest stretch of the imagination have anything to do with national
security, are to be so regarded; if the advisers of the crown are of the opinion that censorship may be extended to that length, then parliament and the country have a right to a declaration by the responsible minister on behalf of the government to show exactly where the public does stand and what the public may expect in the way of further extension of censorship interference. I must confess that in my opinion the matter may well assume serious proportions in this dominion.
I am not going to give any further citations at the moment, but here we have two instances which may perhaps be regarded as examples and illustrations of the sort of thing which may readily occur under a bureaucracy such as the board of censors. I could not wish, nor do I think any hon. member of this house would wish, to take the position that there should not be censorship in time of war. That is something which I think must be approved by this House of Commons. At the same time the question of the care that British people all over the globe have always exercised to see that there shall not be undue interference with the rights of the subject enters into this debate; for in connection with the whole matter of the censoring of news and communications, and all the widespread ramifications over which the board of censors has jurisdiction, we as a people and as a parliament are entitled to know how far the government have gone in unnecessarily interfering with those rights, where the security of the state is not involved. We should know also what is to be the policy of the government in future. What is perhaps more important for us to know is whether the statement made by the Minister of Justice represents government policy. If it does not, I believe the fact of a minister of the crown speaking as he did requires some explanation by the government. If that statement does not represent the policy of the government, then I say the censorship regulations deserve condemnation rather than commendation at the hands of this house. I do not think by any stretch of the imagination this parliament could agree to the proposition that an ordinary statement on a civil matter, which perhaps did not meet the views of the government or certain sections of the people, should come under the censorship regulations.
I leave with the minister those two matters, and suggest that if they are answered satisfactorily it will go a long way toward restoring confidence in the minds of the citizens oj this dominion.



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Thomas Langton Church: A return was brought down in this house last week with regard to the whole matter of censorship generally. I raised this question When this war broke out. In, the last war the gentleman usher of the black rod, Colonel Chambers, a very able man, was the press censor with only a very small staff. At a meeting with the press he laid down certain rules and regulations which applied throughout the war. In doing, so he followed the British system, which had existed ever since the present Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill, was a war correspondent in the South African war. What was that policy, which I say should have been continued during this war? Here is what I said on November 20, 1040, at page 276 of Hansard:
I believe the time has come wThen the press censorship in Canada should be abolished entirely and we should go back to the good old British system, leaving the responsibility for censorship as largely as possible to the voluntary effort of the press. This is what Britain is doing. There are one or two press censors there who supervise things but the press is left largely alone. In my opinion, it would be far better for the Canadian people, and it would make for the dissemination of more reliable information, if that policy were followed in this country. After all, the press has certain duties to the public. It is the medium through which the government of the day can impart information to the people, and I submit that it should not be trammelled, but should be let tell the truth. Truth is the first victim of this war, and self-respect is the victim of neutrality.
But what happened? A large department was established, and we have seen the result; the public of Canada know less about the war or its causes, or external affairs, than almost any other people in the world. I have asked for several returns in regard to this matter, and the last one was brought down on July 14; it was sessional paper No. 341 A.	I asked:
1.	What has been the annual cost of press censorship since the beginning of the war?
2.	Who are the press censors, (a) in Ottawa, (b) in Toronto, and what experience have they had for such work?
3.	Who appointed them, and what are their
salaries, travelling expenses, and	all	other
emoluments?
The answers were as follows:
1.	1939-40	
$ 29,614 541940-	41	
73,088	471941-	42	
80,515	701942-	43	
106,645	55*
* (This figure includes cost of both press and
radio censorship, which were amalgamated as at July 1, 1942. The approximate cost of press censorship for this year would be $82,000.)
2.	(a) Wilfrid Eggleston, chief censor of publications; fifteen years' experience in newspaper work, including nine years as member of the parliamentary press gallery.
I believe he was formerly with the militia
department, and wore a uniform.

Fulgence Charpentier, chief censor of publications; fifteen years' experience in newspaper work including ten years as member of the parliamentary press gallery; service with Canadian army, 1918; studied law at Osgoode Hall, Toronto.
Jacques Girouard, censor of publications; six years in publicity and newspaper work.
R. W. Baldwin, censor of publications; sixteen years in newspaper work, including one year as member of the parliamentary press gallery.
(b) Charles S. Grafton, regional censor of publications; twenty-four years' experience in newspaper work; service with Canadian army, 1915-18.
Bertram B. Perry, regional censor of publications; twenty-six years' experience in newspaper work; service with Canadian army and royal flying corps, 1915-19.
He was on the sporting department of one of the Toronto' newspapers, I believe.
3.	Wilfrid Eggleston-appointed by order in council under authority of P.C. 2882, adopted September 27, 1939. Salary: $15 per diem. (Since August 17, 1942, has been serving as chief telegraph and cable censor without additional remuneration.)
Fulgence Charpentier-appointed by order in council under authority of P.C. 2882, adopted September 27, 1939. Salary: No salary. (Mr. Charpentier has served without remuneration since February, 1940, as chief censor of publications. He fills the joint post -of chief censor of publications and editor of French journals of the House of Commons.)
Jacques Girouard, appointed by order in council, under authority of P.C. 2882, adopted September 27, 1939. Salary: $14 per diem.
R. W. Baldwin, appointed by order in council under authority of P.C. 2882, adopted September 27, 1939. Salary: $14 per diem.
Bertram B. Perry, appointed by order in council under authority of P.C. 2882, adopted September 27, 1939. Salary: $10 per diem.
Charles S. Grafton, appointed by order in council under authority of P.C. 2882, adopted September 27, 1939. Salary: $10 per diem.
Press censors receive their actual and necessary travelling expenses when absent from the office in the discharge of censorship duties.
I think the time has come when the whole system should be revised. I fail to see the value of any censorship of publications, or what it has accomplished. Every department of the government issues dozens of booklets. As we all know, members of parliament receive such batches of pictorial papers and booklets filled with pictures that the waste-paper basket has come to be the most useful piece of office furniture we have. Just the other day we received a very beautiful booklet concerning the new $29,000,000 building in Montreal, showing the mural work and all that sort of thing. I hope my hon. friend will not get out a booklet like this about Christie Street hospital-this one on the Montreal station, with its mural work, cards andi pictures and friezes of scenes down through the middle ages. The censors have not interfered with it,

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and it is full of gorgeous pictorial decorations from end to end. One picture is just like an opera, or like a musical comedy company giving a performance of Gilbert and Sullivan. Yes, this gorgeous affair, at a cost of $29,000,000, with mural exhibits just to remind us of the Greeks and Romans.
What censorship is there of these American publications? If one goes over to Niagara Falls, or Fort Erie, what does he see? On all the news stands he will find booklets and weekly and monthly publications of all kinds about the mother country and all that kind of thing. If there were proper censorship a lot of them would not be allowed to come in. It was not allowed at the time of the last war, under the old chief censor of those days. And I can tell you this, that as far as this extensive press censorship is concerned I have had to oppose this policy from the start.
I realize there has to be a certain amount of postal censorship. I believe I have sent about half a dozen complaints from people to the minister's department, and he has looked after them very well. But with respect to these publication censors, and their travelling expenses to go round the country, that is quite unnecessary. Only a few days ago news came in from Sicily. That news was censored. The same applies to the north African situation and Canada's part in the desert victory, as I pointed out last spring. Instead of leaving it to the press and the gentlemen of the press- well, if the press did not report other proceedings better than in some cases they report the House of Commons, we might just as well meet in secret. However, I have confidence in the press of the country doing its duty splendidly in this time of war, as they have in the past. Sometimes the House of Commons is itself to blame for not receiving a better report. In these days it is overshadowed by the war.
I appeal to the minister to curtail these affairs, and to consider going back to the old censorship policy. Then, as to pamphlets and booklets, hon. members are getting sick and tired of all these picture books they have been receiving. They would be all right to distribute to the kindergarten or to the elementary schools.


Douglas King Hazen: I understand a number of people, who were formerly employed as censors with the duty of censoring letters in the Post Office Department, have been let out. Their services have been dispensed with. Has there been any change in the policy with respect to the censoring of letters? It has occurred to me there must be some
change in policy, in view of the fact that the services of many of these people were dispensed with not veiy long ago.
I have a question with respect to the censoring of letters addressed to members of parliament, a matter that has been discussed in the house on several occasions. I bring it up again now because not long go I received a letter addressed to me with the letters "M.P." added, and directed to the House of Commons at Ottawa. It had been opened by the censors. If my memory serves me correctly this letter came within the last two weeks, after we had been given some assurance that the procedure was to be remedied. Have any instructions been given to the censors respecting mail addressed to members of parliament? If so, what were those instructions? I would have no objection if the letter had been sent to me at my place of residence, without the letters "M.P.". But I do object strenuously to the censoring of letters addressed to me as a member of parliament at the House of Commons in Ottawa.
Mr. LaFLECHE:	I have attempted to
take some notes as hon. members have spoken, and I ask nothing better than to speak as openly as public security will allow, with respect to this matter of censorship. I am indebted to the leader of the opposition for placing his. position so clearly before the committee. I can only trust I shall be able to state the case for censorship as clearly as he voiced-I shall not say his opposition, but his demand for the reasons why certain things have been done. I believe he has asked a fair question.
Before turning to the points mentioned by the leader of the opposition, however, I shall deal with what was said by the hon. member for St. John-Albert, who has asked whether any change has been made in the policy governing censorship. His question is asked because of something he has observed in, I presume, the city of Saint John, New Brunswick. My reply is that there has been no fundamental change, but that there have been, and possibly in the future there will be, changes in degree of application of the rules of censorship. That degree is precisely in proportion to what is deemed by security officers in Canada, the United Kingdom, the United States and perhaps elsewhere as sufficient to meet the needs of safety. What the hon. member has observed would seem to illustrate the point that, having regard to the volume of mail leaving that city, or for
72537-332}

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other good and sufficient reasons, there has been occasion for decreasing the number on the staff.


Douglas King Hazen: Is that the only city in
which there has been a decrease in staff? I thought perhaps it had occurred in other places.
Mr. LaFLECHE: The situation is a changing one. The hon. member for St. John-Albert has observed quite correctly in his own locality a change in the degree of application of the policy, rather than a change in the policy itself. He has asked whether similar changes have occurred elsewhere. The answer is that they have. And they may change again to-morrow. To-morrow, for reasons which we cannot see to-day, it may be necessary to apply the rule more widely.
The other question raised by the hon. member has to do with letters plainly addressed to members of parliament. I have already apologized to two hon. members, because it is against the written instructions for outlying censors in Canada to open letters addressed to members of either house of parliament at Ottawa.


John George Diefenbaker: Have any instructions been given that letters directed to members of parliament, and originating with members of the armed forces, shall be opened? Is the commanding officer of the company thereafter advised of the information contained therein?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I shall come to that point in a moment. I had only reached the point of making a distinction- between letters which are censored by the organization we are discussing this afternoon and the censorship overseas over which we have not the slightest control, the regimental or unit censorship of letters posted by the members of a particular unit.


John George Diefenbaker: Or in Canada.
Mr. LaFLECHE: May I illustrate? Like many other hon. members, I have a member of my family overseas. Each one of his letters addressed to me and clearly indicating the address is censored. At first I was a little bit hurt, but I ascertained that these letters were being censored overseas. When I learned that, any bitterness in my mind disappeared because I realized that I had no business to know of intimate matters relating *to military operations overseas.


John George Diefenbaker: I am referring to letters originating in Canada where there is no military censorship in the units. fMr. LaFleche.]
Mr. LaFLECHE: The hon. member means letters addressed to members of this house and clearly indicated as such? If there is a censorship of such letters by the censorship we are discussing this afternoon-I cannot speak for any other-it would be against the written instructions issued to the censors. I can only apologize again to any hon. gentleman who has received such letters. I -have apologized to one of the Vancouver members, as I did to the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson). If the hon. member for Lake Centre has been so treated, then I apologize to him. I wish to say that it is no action on my part which has resulted in these letters being mistakenly censored in Canada; what happens overseas is beyond us. Let me emphasize again, that the instructions to censors not to censor mail addressed to members of parliament are in writing.


Gordon Graydon: Is there a directive
dealing with letters addressed to members of parliament? If so, is there anything in the way of national security that would prevent the minister from giving us the details?
Mr. LaFLECHE: It is being looked up, and I intend to read it into the record. The hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) remarked that he would prefer to go back to censorship as it used to be. So far as I know the censorship we now have, the censorship we are now discussing, is a continuation of the censorship which was instituted at the beginning of the war. I think it is timely to say that the censorship exercised in the United Kingdom and the United States, and possibly in other united nations, could not be carried out unless we had a censorship such as we have in this country. I trust that careful attention will be given to this fact. Censorship as practised in Canada is a part of what might be termed joint censorship carried out as well by the authorities of the United Kingdom and the United States. Many of the things we do, although not everything, are done at the request of the United Kingdom or United States authorities.
I should like to say something about the statement made by the leader of the opposition. I have no idea of attempting to cut corners in making any explanation, but I believe that the exact position of censorship as we carry it out in Canada can be summed up in a few words. Our censorship is exclusively concerned with matters affecting the prosecution of the war. We are not concerned with anything which is not involved in the winning of the war. That is the official statement I have the honour to make to this committee. Censorship is an operation of war, nothing else. The Minister of Justice

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did not bring to my attention the incident which was referred to by the leader of the opposition. I assume that the reason for this was that upon reading Hansard and the regulations, he discovered that the matter was not subject to censorship.


Gordon Graydon: The Minister of Justice was wrong?
Mr. LaFLECHE: As I may be wrong fifty times to-day, and as I was wrong the other day.


Gordon Graydon: That is a strange statement for the minister to make, to say that one minister is wrong and then to put forth the supposition that perhaps he is wrong himself.
Mr. LaFLECHE: Not in this particular case.


Gordon Graydon: I think we ought to have some clarification of that.
Mr. LaFLECHE: If I am wrong, it is for my good friend to find me out. I was in the house at the time, but I was not fully seized of what was happening. There was some confusion. At any rate I may say that what occurs along such lines in Canada is that purely civilian matters are not a matter of concern to censorship.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: There is no particular item covering the censorship of radio broadcasting. Has the minister anything to do with that, or is it under the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation?
Mr. LaFLECHE: The hon. gentleman will realize that we have been all over the field. The censorship which we are discussing now deals with the press and publication over the radio, radio broadcasting.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Will the
minister indicate the basis of radio broadcasting censorship? I understand that each local station is held responsible for the broadcasting sent out. I do not believe all broadcasts are sent to censorship; I believe each station is held responsible, and this seems to be working quite satisfactorily.
Mr. LaFLECHE: Did I not quite grasp the question? The radio broadcasting censorship is carried out by the censorship we are now discussing. The rule is very much as the hon. gentleman mentioned. For anything that might hinder the successful prosecution of the war we hold the local manager of the broadcasting station primarily, and finally if you like, responsible.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: It is not necessary therefore for the broadcasting station to submit manuscript if the local manager is satisfied?
Mr. LaFLECHE: If the local manager wants to take the risk.


Douglas King Hazen: I receive letters from time to time from the maritime provinces on which the name of the place of origin has been obliterated from the postmark. Does that come under the minister's department?
Mr. LaFLECHE: That was not an act of the censorship we are now discussing.


Douglas King Hazen: Would the minister be prepared to tell us how many people have had their services dispensed with in connection with the censoring of letters during the last two or three months?
Mr. LaFLECHE: The best answer I can give at the moment is about thirty.


Gordon Graydon: A number of members have been calling "carried." The minister no doubt wants an opportunity, and I do not want him to overtook it, to explain the situation with respect to Doctor Scott. It is a matter which I think cannot be left unexplained by the minister. I know he has no desire to do that. I would not have raised the matter simply to leave it on the record, because it is too serious to leave on the record without its being dealt with by the government in such a way as either .to give credence to the letter which was written, or to deny it. It is a matter of great importance and one which the minister should not overlook.
Mr. LaFLECHE: Again I must express thanks to the hon. leader of the opposition. While we are all anxious to conclude the business of the house as quickly as possible, I would not want the item to pass without my saying something on this case, which to me has some elements of sadness. May I say first of all that Doctor J. W. Edmundston Scott left the employ of censorship in August, 1942. Therefore I did not know him; at least I do not recall ever having met the gentleman, and what I say must be taken from reports I have received. I am grateful for the persistence of the hon. leader of the opposition in reminding me of this case. I should like to lay at rest definitely the thought which has become fairly widespread that "all letters observed in the mails containing information regarding women's political activities in all parts of the world and women's activities in connection with post-war reconstruction should be specially submitted to this office and this file reference quoted." May I say definitely in

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respect to the matter that the origin of it was not in Canada. It came from abroad, from a power with which we are most closely associated in this war. The thought did not originate in Canada, and anything done in this connection by our censorship was done by request of an extremely friendly and an extremely dear ally of ours in this war.


Gordon Graydon: Does that mean that when we dictate a policy here with respect to censorship, those who are closely allied with us then adopt a similar attitude towards our censorship directives?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I am certain that should Canada formulate a request such as this one, the other authorities so closely concerned with us in this war would do as we did on this occasion.


Gordon Graydon: Is there any joint censorship supervision by, say, the three Anglo-Saxon nations, Great Britain, the United States and Canada, or a joint censorship board which governs these directives which the minister now speaks of as being adopted by one country and then by another?
Mr. LaFLECHE: We might request, just as they made requests. But my hon. friend's main point was: Is there a joint body? No. But there is the closest and continual consultation among the higher officers of the three censorships mentioned by the hon. gentleman. It is reported to me that no report whatsoever has been forthcoming in respect to the request we had, and which I have just read. The results of that have been nil. It is reported to me that no report has been made by Canadian censorship in connection with that matter, which dates back now well over a year ago.


Gordon Graydon: Does that mean that so far as the directive is concerned this country is simply ignoring it? Either the directive should be put into effect or there should not be any directive.
Mr. LaFLECHE: The directive was put into effect just as any other, but no report concerning it has been forthcoming. It may well be that it does not always follow that our censors throughout Canada will observe in the mails anything of the particular nature. May I make clear, too, that this is not a matter of gossip. Whether it emanates from the lips of a man or a woman, censorship does not care a snap of the finger about ordinary gossip. It is concerned only with matters affecting the war-nothing else.


Gordon Graydon: But there is this man's own declaration that it covers the ambit of women's political activities. What have they to do with the war?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I have read it into the record. It may have something to do with the war. I shall not say anything about Doctor Scott. I have already said what I have to say about directives.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask one more question about this item. When a motion for papers was moved in the house by the hon. member for Peterborough West the house took occasion to vote it down. The Prime Minister, after the vote had been taken and the issue decided, made a statement to the house in which he said that the documents which were called for in the motion would then, subject to security considerations, be tabled.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: He said so before the vote was taken. The Prime Minister made that statement both before and after the vote.


Gordon Graydon: I am not going to take issue with the hon. gentleman, because in any event his statement is not germane to my argument.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is germane to my recollection, though.


Gordon Graydon: My hon. friend is trying to anticipate something. I was very innocent in my approach to this matter, but perhaps my hon. frend has something else in his mind. I was attempting only to draw to the attention of the committee the fact that when the vote was taken the Prime Minister said that there would be tabled and produced such of the orders, regulations, directives, et cetera as could be tabled by the government, having in mind considerations of national security. Will the minister give the committee some indication of what has been done and what the government intends to do with respect to that? In my opinion whatever could have been tabled should have been tabled before this debate took place. Actually this motion was on the order paper for some weeks, at any rate almost two weeks, and for one reason or other the minister delayed the passing of the order. Finally it came to a vote. That was the first indication we had that the government was not prepared to table at least some of the documents asked for. I do not think it is quite playing ball with the committee that we should have come to this debate without the government having informed us either that, for national security reasons, no documents could be produced-which statement

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has not been made-or that such documents have been made available to the members of the committee as are important and indeed vital to a proper and comprehensive discussion of the points at issue. I hope the minister will make a statement on this matter.
Perhaps the minister would indicate to the committee also the underlying reasons applying to censorship of letters which relate to foreign exchange control. I understand that in respect of letters going from here to the United States where foreign exchange is involved, censorship is in full operation, although I do not know to what extent. Will the minister give the committee some details with respect to that? It is a matter upon which the public would like enlightenment, because I have had correspondence and complaints connected with that phase of the censorship regulations.
Mr. LaFLECHE: May I remind the committee that there was a motion on the order paper by the hon. member for Peterborough West for about two weeks, and that on three occasions before the matter came to a head, yesterday or the day before, I gave reasons why I was unable at the time to deal with the matter properly. The reason was that there was a gentleman with whom I felt it necessary to discuss the matter and who was not in town. I so stated on these two occasions. I did not hide anything, and I should like nothing better than to get rid of any material which is in question by bringing it before the house. But as I have already said, censorship is an essential arm of the services. Censorship exists only because there is a war. We cannot carry on censorship alone; neither can the allied nations carry out their censorship without the every-day assistance of the Canadian censorship. What we want to do is to find out things about the enemy which are of importance to us; his intentions, his activities, so that we can the better safeguard our boys overseas or on the seas or above the seas.' We place a value upon information of this kind perhaps in direct ratio to the degree of desire on our part to know what the German censorship is doing. We feel that if we had all the details of the processes of German or Japanese or Italian censorship we could do a better job and we could ward off dangers to our country and to the people who are fighting our battles.
If you will recall, the motion went to a vote ' the other day and it was defeated. Immediately afterwards the Prime Minister offered to have the matter gone into very carefully and undertook that the Minister of National War Services should bring down such papers as in
his opinion it would be safe to produce to the public. I am still going over some of these papers, although a vast number have been scrutinized already. There are papers which contain no military secrets, but I submit that the mere fact of making them public, as they would foe were they tabled, would tell the enemy things about which he would pay dearly to know if the position were reversed; that is, how he is dealing with this business.
There is nothing we want to hide in this particular matter. I should be very glad to discuss these matters with any hon. member, but I would ask, indeed I would implore, hon. members to remember that we are playing with fire. There is no personal desire to keep them from the knowledge of any honest person. The Boche and the Jap-


Gordon Graydon: Did I understand the
minister to say there is no desire to keep them away from, any honest person?
Mr. LaFLECHE: That is what I mean to say.


Gordon Graydon: Is the minister making a reflection on the membership with reference to tabling them in the house?
Mr. LaFLECHE: No, I did not say that at all. I meant that to give publicity to them would mean that they would immediately become known to the enemy. I did not make any reflection on any hon. member. I did in terms specifically say what I thought of the Boche, the Jap and the Italian.
Foreign exchange control is really part of economic warfare; it is another means of carrying the war against the enemy to a successful culmination. I am not anxious to make that widely known, but even the less important of our activities may illustrate the thought that by making anything concerning censorship known to the public we are to an extent helping the enemy.


Gordon Graydon: One more question before the item is passed. Since the beginning of the war has the minister gathered particulars as to how many complaints he or his department has had with respect to the improper opening of mail addressed to members of parliament at Ottawa?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I can speak only from my own knowledge during the time I have been what I am now. I certainly have not received more than half a dozen complaints, and nearly all of them have been such as have been mentioned to-day-letters addressed to

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members of this house and opened, against written instructions, by censors at outlying points.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: May I ask the minister one question in regard to the removal of certain items from a letter in which criticism is made of a department, of an individual in a department, or of an organization and sending that information to the person criticized, together with the name of the writer. I was told, I believe by the Postmaster General, in reply to a question some time ago that this was the custom. Is it the custom at the present time?
Mr. LaFLECHE: I know of no such thing, and in view of the stated purposes of censorship I cannot imagine that anything would be noted in correspondence unless it had to do in some way or another with the prosecution of the war. If the hon. gentleman has a case in mind I should very much like to look into it for him.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I shall be glad to have the assurance that from now on this will not happen again-, but I know of a case in which criticism was made having nothing whatever to do with the war, and an extract containing that criticism was taken from the letter, typewritten and sent to one of the departments, and ultimately reached the individual criticized.
Mr. LaFLECHE: May I ask the hon. gentleman to let me know the details of that case?


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I will tell the minister privately.


Gordon Graydon: That is a very serious matter.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I cannot say whether it is serious or not, I do not know about it.


Gordon Graydon: On the face of it, it is.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Is there a board that does the censoring of broadcasts over the radio? I know there are people at each station who do a certain amount of it, taking it upon themselves to perform that work. Who is the head of radio broadcasting censorship?
Mr. LaFLECHE:	The gentleman who
looks after radio broadcasting censorship is Mr. Shearer. Radio censorship is similar to newspaper censorship. Great reliance and confidence are placed in the newspaper and in the radio broadcasting station, and I must say that from both we have had excellent cooperation and I feel that our confidence has been well placed.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Are the broadcasts censored which are made by panel speakers over the Canadian broadcasting corporation? Are they censored before being released, or are they released on the responsibility of the person broadcasting?
Mr. LaFLECHE: Speakers may submit their manuscripts to censorship, but they do not have to. If a speaker does not and something goes out which is against the regulations, then the manager of the station is held to account. He becomes responsible.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: On two occasions I have directed attention to a charge made by the Right Hon. Arthur Meighen in connection with broadcasting, and I have said the same thing myself, with reference to a broadcast made by Doctor Watson Thomson of Winnipeg some time ago in which he made some startling statements of one kind or another. I also asked Doctor James Thomson in the radio committee whether he had any comments to make and he said he had none. I am wondering if this is the kind of thing that is permitted. Let me read-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Order. My hon. friend is about to read from the proceedings of the committee.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I can read from them now.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The report has not been adopted by the house.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: No, but under the rules I believe I can read, can I not?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: On the point of order, the hon. member would not be in order in discussing the proceedings of the committee, whose report has not been adopted.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Then I will not read it, though I am not sure about that. However, this man, as a regular speaker over the radio, one of the panel speakers, said some drastic things about the British empire and the British people. He said, among other things, that it was about time that Canada got in line with the other nations, got busy and told Britain where she got off in connection with the situation in India, and a few other things like that, which to my mind were more or less subversive. They were things that should not have been said over the radio in Canada in a time of war. WThat would we think of Great Britain if they started to criticize the way in which we were handling something in this country? I feel strongly on that question and have expressed myself on it before, but I under-

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stand that nothing has been done about it, and this gentleman is still broadcasting. Are we to expect the same kind of thing again?
I do not think the charge made by the Right Hon. Arthur Meighen with reference to a man of this type, bringing to the attention of the people of Canada such a situation, should go unchallenged. We are entitled to more of a reply than we have received so far.
Mr. LaFLECIIE: Of whom was inquiry made?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The general
manager.
Mr. LaFLECHE: I am sure that my hon. friend has stated all the facts correctly, and that being the case I join with him in condemning any man who speaks against either Canada or any of the nations fighting on our side. Naturally I shall read Hansard, note my hon. friend's words, and ask for a reply.


Mr. JAQUES:: I associate myself with the remarks of the hon. member for St. Paul's. The general tone of commentator broadcasting in this country is thoroughly subversive, anti-British and anti-democratic, and it is time some change was brought about and some of these people were taken off the air.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: This is a
most inconsistent attitude. This afternoon the leader of the opposition made a very fine speech and the minister made a very fine statement of policy. I hope that what he said is the policy of the government, that censorship should deal only with matters pertaining to the winning of the war and should have nothing to do with interfering with expressions of private opinion in reference to our internal policy or even empire policies. Now, when these hon. members want to use the censorship regulations to take off the air or to restrict in some way Doctor Watson Thomson or anyone else who expresses views with reference to matters that are of concern to all the people of the British commonwealth of nations, then I say you are defeating the very purpose for which these censorship regulations have been set up. I have not only listened to Doctor Watson Thomson's broadcasts; I have been careful to get copies of them, and to check them over. Doctor Watson Thomson himself is a Britisher, not long out of Edinburgh, Scotland, and he has never said anything derogatory to the British empire or subversive to our war effort. He has expressed opinions
which one can hear expressed any day in the week at public meetings in Britain, in the columns of the Times or in Hyde park.


Gordon Graydon: I am not very familiar with this matter, because I have not listened to the broadcasts or read what was said, but is not this the man who took a little time to deal with the Indian situation; and was it not a fact that many people felt that this was a matter which did concern the war effort? I am only suggesting that.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Yes, Doctor Watson Thomson did express his opinions with reference to the Indian situation, as have British members of parliament.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Without knowing anything about it.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I imagine he knows a good deal more about it than the hon. member for St. Paul's does; certainly he knows enough about it to be able to discuss it intelligently. It does not matter whether the members of this committee agree with what he said, or whether I agree with it. The fact is that the man has a right to express a point of view contrary to that which other speakers were allowed time on the radio to express, and in my opinion the minister and the government will make a great mistake if they ever tolerate the use of these censorship regulations to muzzle any man merely because the views he expresses do not coincide with their own. I hope the minister will keep to the policy he enunciated this afternoon, under which these regulations will be used to prevent subversive statements or anything that would harm the war effort, but that they will not be used to prevent people from freely expressing their opinions, whether they be in criticism of anyone in this country or even in constructive criticism of other members of the united nations.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation-shortwave station, $640,000.
Gordon Graydon: I shall be very brief in what I have to say on this item.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Gordon Graydon: The applause of hon.
members is embarrassing, and does not encourage me to extend my remarks at all. I wish to take this opportunity to mention one matter to the minister in connection with the broadcasting corporation. I believe this item, dealing with the installation of a shortwave broadcasting station, gives me an
5256	COMMONS
War Appropriation-War Services
opportunity to make some observations in connection with one of the factors which go to the root of the whole problem of broadcasting as far as public ownership in Csgnada is concerned.
Subject to the provisions of the act, the minister has jurisdiction over the operations of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. As a fairly close student of that corporation for some years, and as a member of the committee which last session went rather deeply into the affairs of the corporation, I think I can state to-day, conscientiously and unequivocally, that one of the real difficulties in connection with the broadcasting corporation lies in the tragic weakness of the board of governors of that institution.
I believe the minister will be the first to agree that if there is one thing the broadcasting corporation needs it is public confidence, which is vital and essential to the success of any agency of communication. As long as the present situation is allowed to continue, however, public confidence cannot be maintained in that institution. You hear this on every side, and I am sure I am reflecting a large measure of public sentiment in this country when I make that statement. This afternoon I make a sweeping condemnation of the board of governors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I condemn them on one ground in particular. After the recommendation brought in by the committee last year, I cannot conceive why the board of governors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation did not resign in a body, for in my opinion, that would have been in the national interest. In expressing that broad condemnation of the board, I am willing to agree that there may be some good men who would have to take part in any such general resignation, but in all fairness to Canada and to the government I believe it was their duty to resign. I have taken that position previously, and I take it again to-day. If there is one thing above another which the broadcasting corporation should seek at all times it is to maintain and preserve a position of nonpartisanship in this country. The people of Canada have a right to demand that there shall not be any shadow of suspicion in regard to partisanship on that board. I am not going to make special mention of the chairman, Mr. Rene Morin, but I will say that I do not think it helped, from the point of view of strict non-partisanship, to appoint as chairman of the board of governors a man who from 1921 to 1926 occupied a seat on the 
government benches in support of the Liberal party. I do not want to condemn him on that ground alone-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Alone?


Gordon Graydon: Perhaps I should withdraw that; perhaps I was a little more careless in my phraseology than usual. In any event I would say that in itself would not be necessarily a ground for condemnation; but considered together with the situation that exists in connection with another member of that board, it makes a combination which I think should call for a complete reconstruction of the board of governors in the interests both of the broadcasting corporation and of our national life. Some three or four weeks ago the newspapers in this city and other places in Canada carried some interesting news with respect to another appointee to the board of governors. I refer to Mr. E. H. Charleson of Ottawa.


Mr. McILRAITH:: A very fine man.


Gordon Graydon: I expected that would touch a tender spot. If I were in the place of the hon. member for Ottawa West, I would have interjected-but I would have made it more vehement than he has done. I think most hon. members of parliament usually know when they are going to be hit, before they are hit-and that is exactly what happened in this case.
I have never met Mr. Charleson, but I am condemning the system under which a member of the board of governors of an institution supposed to be entirely non-partisan, supposed to cater to the best interests of Canada, one in which public confidence must be maintained at all cost, can be chosen in this way. To say the least, I do not think it was within the bounds of strict propriety, nor do I think it was in the interest of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation itself, or in the interests of Canada generally that a member of the board of governors of that organization should, if the newspaper report is correct-and I have never seen it denied-have been one of those who would preside at the election of officers for the Liberal Association of Ottawa West some three or four weeks ago.
I am the last one who would suggest that there should not be a meeting of the Liberal Association of Ottawa West. That in itself is quite a proper procedure. But I do question -and it is questioned not only by me but by people throughout Canada-the propriety of a man holding a position in an organization supposed to carry the banner of non-partisanship,

War Appropriation-War Services
and at the same time presiding at a political meeting. Yet the government does not condemn this practice in any way. The man in question is left in his position, after having presided at the meeting of the Liberal Association of Ottawa West. To say the least, it was an improper thing to do. And if that is permitted, it would seem there is nothing to hinder any man on the board of governors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation doing the same thing.
I want to point out what I have pointed out before, namely that we need a new board of governors for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, a board of governors of which there could not possibly be any criticism. Let us have men and women who are outstanding citizens of Canada. May I repeat a criticism I have made before, namely that of a board of nine only one represents labour. Does anyone seriously contend that one out of nine would be a fair representation of labour's claim in Canada? Of course it would not. Not only that, but we must remember that not one member of the board of governors comes from organized agriculture. On other occasions I have asked the Prime Minister if, when making his appointments, he would make sure that a farmer might be chosen. So far that undertaking has not been given. A farmer has not been chosen, although there is a vacancy on the board.
May I only repeat what I have said on other occasions, that in the interests of this national institution w'e should see to it that the governor takes heed of the public warning I am now giving, namely, that I ask for the resignation of the board of governors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Let us have appointed to that board those who can command the confidence of the people of Canada. In any event there should be a wholesale resignation, so that there may be a wholesale reconstruction in the national interest, and also in the interest of the government and of parliament.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: I should like to inquire if the capacity to campaign in an election is one of the qualifications for membership on the board. I understand that the member on that board who comes from Nova Scotia actively campaigned on behalf of the Liberal party during the last election in that province. In view of the information submitted to the committee by the hon. member for Peel, it appears to me that to a considerable extent the ability to campaign must be one of the qualifications for these men to serve on the board. It would seem that they would have to be able to campaign at least on a political platform, if not over the air.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I agree with every word said by the leader of the opposition with respect to the report. I do not agree with what is contained in the report. It may be that the recommendations in it were carried out last year by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. But I do not see how the government, in view of that report, can still carry on in the same way, particularly when it was pointed out that the independence of the corporation from partisan control is to be , assured by its constitution.
We had before us in that committee one of the outstanding electrical engineers on the continent, a gentleman who is professor of electrical engineering at the university of Toronto. Mention is made in the report about keeping the channels open. May I point out the importance of filling up our channels, and of taking full advantage of our opportunities under the Havana agreement. I say that already, through the attitude and the policy of the board of governors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, many of those channels have been lost to Canada. It is all very well to say that under the Havana agreement we may be able to get them back in the future, but all one has to do is to read the observations of Professor Bayly to see what will happen.
The principle followed by radio stations, and backed by governors, is one of "what we have we hold". We must give more power to the private broadcasting stations, and fill up those channels, or we shall lose them, as sure as we are here. This is a technical subject, and one which could not be discussed adequately in the house. However, this question with respect to channels is most serious, so far as Canada is concerned, and I believe we should employ electrical engineers to make a proper survey for us, so that we may know what we are doing. While the subject is technical, yet I would urge upon the government the importance of preserving to Canada the channels we already have, and that we must guard against losing any more. There is no time to be lost. We have until six months before the expiration of the treaty in 1946. It takes at least six months to get the permits and everything arranged and one cannot build a fiftjMbousand-watt station under a year at least, so that there is no time to lose. I commend the reading of the report to hon. members.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Ilsley thereupon moved for leave to introduce bill No. 139, for granting to his majesty aid for national defence and security.
War Appropriation Bill
[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Bradette in the chair.
Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.
On section 3-Government may act as agent.
Gordon Graydon: May I ask if there is any significant or important departure in the provisions of this bill from those in the bill which was passed last year?


Mr. ILSLEY:: No, there is not.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 4 to 6 inclusive agreed to.
Bill reported.
Mr. ILSLEY moved the third reading of the bill.
Mr. BLACKMORE:: I think the third reading of a bill as important as this one could easily be deferred until the next sitting of the house.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There have been no amendments offered to the bill, and it is absolutely within the rules to have it proceeded with immediately.


John Horne Blackmore: There can be discussion on the bill just the same.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We have been discussing the bill for the last two months.


John Horne Blackmore: I am asking that the bill be read! the third time to-morrow.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Standing order 77 reads:
All amendments made in committee are reported by the Chairman to the house, which shall receive the same forthwith. After report the bill is open to debate and amendment, before it is ordered for a third reading. But when a bill is reported without amendment, it is forthwith ordered to be read a third time at such time as may be appointed by the house.


Angus MacInnis: I am not opposing the ruling, but is there not a rule that provides that the three readings of a bill cannot take place without unanimous consent?


Thomas Vien: There is a rule that the three readings should not take place on the same day. But on occasions, such as the end of the session, it has been permitted to give a bill the three readings. Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


John Horne Blackmore: On division.
Motion agreed to on division, bill read the third time and passed.
IMr. Douglas G. Ross.]

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Bradette in the chair.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
212. Inspection and investigation, $949,040.
John Horne Blackmore: The same thing is happening this afternoon as happened the other night. There is confusion in the chamber and I cannot hear what is going on.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: We are dealing with item 242 on page 29 of the estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
244. Air and land mail services, $14,081,859.
Gordon Graydon: May I draw to the attention of the minister a matter which has been drawn to his attention in previous years, but which perhaps may be drawn to his attention this year with a little more force and conviction. Those of us who live in rural constituencies cannot help but be impressed by the changed situation with which our rural mail carriers have to cope. At this stage of the proceedings I do not wish to do more than register a protest with respect to the whole question of rural mail carriers and also to offer a suggestion which may be of some help in dealing with this matter. Faced with low incomes, many of our rural mail carriers have had to live on perhaps as low a level of sustenance as almost any class of people, and in the majority of cases on a much lower level than any who are directly or indirectly connected with the public service. The rural mail carrier, of course, comes very close to our agricultural population. He is part and parcel of the life of the rural people of Canada. I myself can recall in my early days on the farm having no better friend than the rural mail carrier who came to our gate every noon, and I think all of us who are farmers feel the same way about the rural mail carrier who always came regularly no matter what the weather, in good weather and bad. He was a public servant with whom the farmers and rural dwellers seldom found fault. As a class the rural mail carriers in Canada may be said to have carried out their duties in peace time and in war with credit to themselves and to the department with whom they had contracted, and to the satisfaction of the country generally.
But the rural mail carrier is now faced with rising costs of living and with an inadequate additional allowance. I believe it is something like five per cent which he has been allowed to cover the additional cost of gasoline and matters of that kind entering

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into his operating costs. Yet he has at the same time seen other branches of the public service-true, technically perhaps they may not be parallel branches; nevertheless they are branches of the public service- receive the cost of living bonus while he is denied that right. I recognize that perhaps from the technical point of view the cost of living bonus would not normally attach to the remuneration received from a contract awarded by tender. Nevertheless I point this out to the minister, and with the sole object of expressing an opinion which is widespread among the rural mail carriers themselves: They feel that they are being treated differently from other branches of the public service, particularly the Post Office Department, in being denied, whatever the technical reason may be, and it may be a good one, the cost of living bonus which is awarded to other branches of the public service. They see the cost of living bonus paid in the one instance and not in the other, and it is difficult for them to understand why this distinction should be made.
I know what the minister's answer will be. But I wish to point out to him that that will not remove the dissatisfaction among the rural mail carriers. I want the minister to make a note of my remarks with respect to one question I asked and that is this: What has been the government's policy with respect to the opening of new tenders or allowing new tenders to be submitted for various routes where the original tenderer has not completed his term of contract but has found himself unable to carry on? I imagine the answer to that question would show a trend which would much more eloquently and adequately show the rural mail carrier situation than any words I could utter in this house.
I am not attempting to leave an impossible situation on the minister's doorstep. No one who has given an intensive study to the question of how to deal with the rural mail carrier situation could fail to recognize that the minister has a problem on his hands. As a private member of this house I have given as much study to it perhaps as most, and I am in a position to say that I have some sympathy with the minister when he attempts to find a solution of the rural mail carrier's troubles. Nevertheless that is not a sufficient reason why there should not be a forthright attempt made to solve these troubles. There have been many more difficult jobs which this parliament has undertaken, and I condemn the government for not at least making an effort to solve the problem once and for all. Surely the fact that the problem is a difficult one should be a challenge to the government to solve it rather than a signal to do nothing
about it. I believe that this session should not have been allowed to reach its present stage without the minister having asked parliament to set up a committee of this house to deal with the problem of the rural mail carrier in Canada. I have sat in this house for some eight years since 1935, and whenever a departmental estimate covering the rural mail carriers has been up for consideration, I have seen men on all sides of the house offering suggestions in this committee of the whole, some constructive, some just suggestions, but all offering criticism, and I have seen the minister, whether it be the present minister or his predecessors, always writhing a little under the criticism but not knowing which way to turn for a solution of the problem.
I make this suggestion to the minister. Perhaps it is too late to set up a committee of the house this session, but if he is unable between now and the time parliament meets again to make any more headway than he and his predecessors have made in the past in solving the difficulties of the rural mail carriers, I think he owes it to the rural mail carriers, and owes it to parliament, and I am not so sure but what he owes it even to himself, to ask for the appointment of a special committee of the House of Commons to find ways and means by which the rural mail carriers may be put in a position at least comparable with other government services, not only in the Post Office Department but other departments as well.
Much good could come out of the calling of witnesses and the taking of evidence of the mail carriers and from the broad discussion which could be had by such a committee. At least it would show the mail carriers that we as a parliament were prepared to come to grips with this problem and, if possible, make recommendations leading to a satisfactory settlement of their difficulties once and for all. We owe them that attempt at least. Their situation I feel is a challenge to parliament and to the government which we have failed too long to take up. I make that suggestion in the hope that it will be accepted by the government to bring about an overdue reform in the situation of the rural mail carriers of this country.


Mr. GRAHAM:: I wish to call to the attention of the minister the fact that the hard times through which we passed in Saskatchewan led a good many of our farmers to tender for mail routes for an absurdly small remuneration. It was a question of getting some income rather than no income. Like the leader of the opposition, I think the Post Office Department must consider the changed
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times and the importance of the service being done by these mail route carriers, and the country should see to it that, in spite of particular emergencies which may force some to offer their services for very small compensation, they should receive fair and reasonable remuneration for the work they do.. We expect of them utter honesty and unvarying service in good and bad weather and under all sorts of conditions. I hope the Postmaster General will give most generous consideration to this question of adequate remuneration for rural mail carriers.
One question I should like to direct to the Minister may not come under this item; if it does not, I ask the indulgence of the committee. With regard to the city of Swift Current, as the minister probably well knows, I have been pressing upon the department two necessities. One is the improving of the status of the post office, so that the staff will come under the civil service commission and some provision will be made for those employees who have spent a lifetime in the service of the department. Another is that the city has now reached an importance in size and population which would warrant a carrier house delivery. I would appreciate it if the minister would indicate what attention the department is giving to these oft-repeated requests.


Mr. DUPUIS:: I, too, wish to say a word
about the position of rural mail carriers. It interests me very much because I have been in touch with many of the representatives of the rural mail carriers' association, and in a measure I am in a position to know then-wishes and requests. I can tell the committee from my personal knowledge that the Postmaster General is very much interested in this question and, I am sure, has been trying for many months past to solve the problem. The idea of appointing a special committee of the house to study the requests of these carriers is a good one, if the problem cannot be solved by the department alone. Since the beginning of the war there has been considerable competition in respect of these routes, and it is clear that the tender system, whereby farmers seeking to get some more revenue make bids at too low a price, is not the best system which can be applied if fair and reasonable remuneration is to be granted for the work done. I know of many instances where these men are working at a loss, and it is only fair that carriers should1 receive sufficient payment to make a little revenue out of the work.
I remember the days when I myself was a railway mail clerk and used to meet many of these people. At that time the same problem existed, although it was not then so acute as

it is now on account of the war. I associate myself with all hon. members who would contribute constructive criticism and suggestions to the Post Office Department with a view of rendering justice to these mail carriers. I sincerely sympathize with them, and I know the people whom they serve are well aware that they are inadequately paid. This condition. should be remedied. I repeat that I recognize the anxiety of the minister to find ways and means of settling the problem, and I am sure he is sympathetic to those who are affected by it.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have one question to ask the minister which I think could be answered before six o'clock. I have a letter from the father of a son who is serving in the Royal Navy, and I will read a part of it. He states:
When w-e send a parcel to our son we are limited to five pounds because he is in the Royal Navy. I sent him one to-day, and it contained one pound fruit cake, one pound assorted biscuits, a small package of dates and a bit of cheese. I figure he would clean that up in an hour. If he had been in the Canadian forces we could have sent him eleven pounds, at least enough to do him overnight. There may be a reason for it but it looks odd.
Is that correct, that we are allowed to send a parcel of only five pounds to those serving in the imperial forces, either on sea or on land, but that we can send an eleven-pound parcel, I assume at the same rate, to those serving in the Canadian forces? If so, it is not fair, because many of our boys have enlisted in the imperial navy, in ships and other services.


Hon. W. P. MULOCK (Postmaster General) :: I wish to thank the hon. member for Davenport for having brought that matter to the attention of the committee, in order that there may not be any .misunderstanding about it. First of all, as regards the rate, the rate per pound is the same. As regards the weight, the statement he makes is correct, but the regulation about weight is not one made by the Canadian government; it is made by the British government.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Angus MacInnis: I wish to associate myself with the remarks made by the leader of the opposition, the hon. member for Swift Current, and one or two others in regard to the rural mail carriers. This question has been up, when

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the post office estimates have been under consideration, for a number of years. If I remember aright, we had this problem during the years from 1930 to 1935, at least before the present Postmaster General took office, and apparently it does not matter which government is in power, it has been found impossible, or at any rate there has been an unwillingness, to do anything. The time has come when we should have more equality in employment, particularly in the public service. We cannot expect private employers tO' attempt any equality in private enterprise unless the government first tries to have equality in the public service. It may be said] and it is said that the rural mail carriers are themselves to some extent responsible for the. conditions under which they work because they outbid one another for these positions. If they do that, obviously it is done because of their necessity and not froim choice. There is no position in the public service, from the Postmaster General down, for which someone could not be found at less money if he had an opportunity to take the position. But that is no reason why there should not be an investigation and some plan worked out by which mail couriers would be given a living wage the same as persons in other employment are entitled to to-day. I hope the Postmaster General will consider what has been said to-day on this question.
There is one other matter to which I wish to refer. I believe it was brought to the attention of the Postmaster General when he visited Vancouver early in the year. The postal employees in Vancouver have some grievances, and although my information comes from that city I understand that this condition is general throughout the postal service in Canada, or at least in the larger cities. I have before me the Vancouver News-Herald, of January 14, 1943, and a report there bears out the statements made to me in correspondence from post office employees in various parts of Canada.
Their first grievance is that order in council P.C. 32/1905, passed on May 10, 1940, set the quota of the permanent staff at, I believe, ninety per cent of the total staff, but that since that time, on account of changes that have taken place in the staff, the ratio of temporary to permanent employees is about twenty to eighty instead of ten to ninety. The way in which this works out is this. Men who came into the service as far back as 1937 are still temporary employees, still on the lower wage of S85 a month. There may be some cost of living bonus or something within the last couple of years. At any rate that is the condition which prevails. Where there is a possibility or, indeed, a probability, as in this case, that these employees will ultimately become a part of the permanent staff they should be taken into the permanent staff after a period of time, regardless of whether they comprise eighty-five or ninety-five per cent of the service as a whole. To fix an arbitrary number of permanents as compared wdth temporaries is, in my opinion, wrong. I am not referring to war workers. After an employee is taken into the normal service and has served a year or a year and a half or even two years as a temporary, he should automatically be taken on to the permanent staff.
Another matter with regard to the Vancouver post office is the large amount of overtime that is being worked, but the only overtime that is paid for in cash is, I believe, about thirty hours during the Christmas rush. All the rest of the overtime is paid for by time off, and as at January 1, 1943, the excess overtime in the Vancouver post office was approximately 18,500 hours. If you have a state of the labour market where there is a scarcity of labour so that instead of having to work less time people are compelled to work overtime, it is utterly impossible to compensate for this overtime by time off. I suggest that the government adopt the policy of paying for all overtime in cash in the same way as it is paid for in ordinary employment.
There is one other grievance which I can state better by reading a paragraph in a letter I received from the national treasurer of Canadian postal employees. I quote:
Our holidays are given on seniority and a junior man (one with less than two years steady employment) may go on his holidays before he has earned his full leave period. After his holidays are over and should he be called to the army, he must refund the money he has received for the days he was on leave that he had not earned. (He is allowed li days per month.) But, and here ig the catch, should he have time coming to him for overtime he has worked, well, he gives that for the good of the post office.
It seems to me that if this matter of time works in one way, in favour of the government, it is only just that if the government owes something to the employee, he should be paid. These things are so small that it is amazing to think the post office authorities would allow them to remain as irritants affecting the morale of the civil service. I hope the Postmaster General will take note of what I have said, and I should be very glad if he could make a statement at this time as to the steps that are being taken to remedy some of these complaints.
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Mr. STOKES:: I should like to bring to the attention of the minister a matter that has to do with the service given many of our people who live in rural areas; I am not going to say anything in regard to the remuneration of the mail carriers, because the minister has heard enough about that. Two years ago I understood the department was loosening up a little in the regulations governing the laying out of routes, and were granting the privilege of rural mail delivery to people living on what might be described as dead-end roads. We have in my district several such places with which I am personally acquainted, which are not served by the mail carriers, and I wish to draw the minister's attention to the fact that the inconvenience to which these people are put in having to go some distance for their mail is a much more serious matter now than it was a few years ago. They are short of help; perhaps the children have all grown up and left; there may be only the man and his wife remaining on the farm, and they may have to travel some distance for their mail. With the present shortage of gasoline I believe they have a real complaint, for they are taxpayers just the same as the people who live on the other roads, who are given better service. I have in mind one case in particular, of a man who lives on one of our trunk highways, midway between the village in which the post office is located and the cross-road which is travelled by the mail carrier. This man must either go into the village for his mail or have a box at the cross-road, which is a considerable distance away. I should like to ask the minister if in a case like that it would not be possible for the man to get his mail from the bus which delivers the mail to the village.
Last year when these estimates were under discussion I mentioned the closing of a subpost office in the city of Belleville, which meant a considerable hardship to a number of people just outside the city limits and some little distance from the city post office, to which they must go for their mail. This subpost office has been closed now for perhaps a year and a half. I believe it was closed on account of some question over the cost of the building and the remuneration of the postmaster. When we were discussing these matters last year the minister promised to give consideration to this situation, but so far the condition has not been remedied. These are the two items I should like to draw to the attention of the minister.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the present remuneration for a full-time postman in the city of Toronto, say, who has been in the service for some years?


William Pate Mulock: 



SI,500.

John Ritchie MacNicol: And nothing more?


William Pate Mulock: The uniform, carfare, boots, raincoat and the cost of living bonus.


John Ritchie MacNicol: How many holidays with pay does he get?


William Pate Mulock: Eighteen days.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is about three weeks?


William Pate Mulock: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am not going to say anything more about that at the moment, but it does not seem sufficient remuneration for men who have such responsible positions and who perform such arduous duties.


Mr. MacKENZIE (Lambton-Kent):: The question of the remuneration of rural mail carriers has been discussed at some length. Recently some confusion has been caused through a war-time bonus which has been granted to underpaid rural mail carriers, at least to help defray some of the increased cost of operation. I believe that matter should be explained at this time, in order to clarify the situation. Many of the mail carriers are under the impression that if the contract is changed by adding a war-time bonus, the contract is broken and will have to be advertised. That is not my understanding, and I should like the matter cleared up. If they are granted a war-time bonus in order to help meet the increased cost of operation, the contract is not broken. After the war, when conditions return to normal, the carrier may decide whether he wishes the contract advertised or whether he wishes to revert to the original terms. If that could be explained at this time, I think it would clarify the situation.


Mr. SLAGHT:: I have a word to say with regard to the rural mail carriers, but before touching upon that matter I should like to pay a tribute to the Postmaster General, who, in my view, in his short regime has fully measured up to the illustrious reputation made by his revered grandfather, Sir William Mulock, in service to Canada.
I believe the department showed wisdom last year, when renewing these rural mail contracts, by increasing in a reasonable and proper way the remuneration paid these mail carriers. In the last five years in my district of Parry Sound I have investigated practically every route and every carrier engaged in this

Supply-Post Office
important work, and I believe every carrier in my district has been and still is underpaid in relation to the service he renders to his country. There is a tradition among mail carriers, and I fancy it is not peculiar to my own district, that his majesty's mail must go through. In the winter time, with six feet of snow on the roads, with a twenty-six mile route, when the car will not start and the roads are blocked, though the horses have to be harnessed to the old sleigh, his majesty's mail must go through. We cannot run riot in the matter of increases; but if my memory serves me correctly, in the last year the department had been more liberal in renewal contracts, in seeing that in deserving cases there have been increases. We sometimes forget the service these men render. I should like to add my voice to those of hon. members who have already said that the rural mail carrier is a splendid servant of the country, and that he should receive fair treatment in his contract.


William Pate Mulock: First of all, the hon. member for Lambton-Kent referred to certain orders in council. I have sent for them, and they will be here in a moment. I shall be glad to give the contents of those orders in council to the committee. .
In the meantime, however, if I may, I shall deal with some of the matters raised by the hon. member for Vancouver East. The hon. member first referred to the question of overtime. May I say to him that I was in Vancouver, and attended a meeting with the officials of the department. We met the representatives of the employees' association out there, and discussed with them their troubles and difficulties. They have troubles; in a large measure what the hon. member has said is correct. And there are troubles of a similar nature at other points across Canada.
I had intended making a statement with respect to overtime, and perhaps this would be the appropriate opportunity. I would point out that the situation in the Post Office Department, owdng to war activities and the depletion of experienced staff by enlistments and the like, has produced a condition with regard to necessary overtime, because most of the work can be handled by men of experience only. It has, therefore, become necessary to meet this condition, on account of the impossibility of liquidating overtime by compensatory time off.
The action taken under the War Measures Act, after a careful review of all post office difficulties, has resulted in the decision that, for the duration of the war, overtime will be liquidated as far as possible by granting corresponding time off. That which cannot be liquidated in this manner by the end of the month following the month in which the overtime was worked, will be paid for in cash at the pro-rata rate of salary which the employee is receiving, provided that the minimum rate of payment shall be sixty cents an hour.
The classes affected throughout the year are postal clerks, senior mail porters, mail porters, postal garage repairmen and postal chauffeurs. During the Christmas heavy mailing period and on statutory holidays the following would be included:	letter carriers, senior letter
carriers, letter carrier overseers, postal garage foremen, and senior postal clerks-the latter only when engaged on manipulative duties.
During normal times, if letter carriers work overtime, the situation is taken care of by a revision of the routes, rather than by payment for overtime.
The second matter raised by the hon. member for Vancouver East was the question of allowing leave at the rate of one and a half days per month of service. This applies to the whole service, I am advised, and is regulated for the service by the civil service commission. I shall draw this matter to the attention of the commission.
Then, the matter in connection with the ten per cent of temporary employees and ninety per cent permanent is one which is receiving serious consideration in the department at the present time. As a matter of fact, it has been brought to the attention of treasury board. I believe I have dealt with the three points raised by the hon. member.


Angus MacInnis: Replying to a question by the hon. member for Davenport the minister said that the annual salary in the Post Office Department was $1,500.


William Pate Mulock: Plus cost of living bonus, plus certain clothing.


Angus MacInnis: In what category would the employee be who received that salary?


William Pate Mulock: I understood the hon. member for Davenport was asking about a man who had been on for some years.


Angus MacInnis: I understood the salary for a letter carrier was higher than that, that he began at $85 a month, and received that amount while a temporary employee. When he is made permanent I understood he received $1,740.


William Pate Mulock: The $1,740 is for postal clerks. The range for letter carriers is $1,020 to $1,500.
Supply-Post Office


Douglas Gooderham Ross: As far as the post office service in Toronto is concerned, I should like to sound a note of appreciation of the efficient manner in which the postmaster in that city, Mr. Gibson, has done his work. It will be realized that he has had to work under great difficulties, because the post office at Toronto is at the present time very much overcrowded. Our new post office building is now in the possession of the Department of National Defence, with the result that the post office is operating under a tremendous handicap. Despite that, however, our postal employees are doing a marvellous job. It must be remembered that this is war time, and there is more mail to carry. Our postmen, the fellows on the street, who go from house to house, are always cheerful and always willing to do their best for anyone. If one has any kick about the delivery of his mail, all he needs to do is to inform the postman, and he will look into the matter. I cannot speak too highly of the delivery service we have had under Mr. Gibson, and of the wonderful esprit de corps in the postal service.
There is one improvement I should like to see. It is known that at the present time there are many employees on the part-time list. It seems to me they should be put on the permanent list as quickly as possible, because until that time their position is to some extent insecure. I imagine there are fewer on the temporary list now than there were before, but even so I say that with all the work they have to do in these days they deserve great credit and should be placed on the permanent list.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Carried.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The Minister of Pensions and National Health seems to want to have this carried in a hurry. Apparently he does not want me to sound the praises of the Post Office Department. I will say that these employees deserve whatever can be done for them; because, after all, I do not think many hon. members would want to shoulder on a hot day one of those big mail bags the postmen carry. As the hon. member for Parry Sound has said, it is his majesty's mail, and the mail must go through.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What has been the success in connection with the carrying of air mail? I understand it was very satisfactory last year. Would the minister indicate the increase in poundage? What is the tonnage, and what is the revenue?


William Pate Mulock: I would advise the hon.
member for Davenport that the number of

pounds carried last year by Trans-Canada Air Lines Limited was 2,308,812; the estimated maximum number of pounds bearing Canadian postage and originating in Canada was 1,771,972; the estimated revenue at $2 per pound was $3,543,944. The estimated profit on operations, allowing a varying amount from fifteen to thirty per cent for write-off for duplications, transfers of mail from one plane to another, United States mail for United States troops, and things of that kind, amounted to $321,573. That was the profit on the operation of Trans-Canada as far as the Post Office Department was concerned. That is quite an improvement over previous years. In 1940 there was a loss of about $1,375,915, and in 1941 this loss had been reduced to $644,762. I am glad to be able to tell the hon. member that the first five months of this year showed a profit of1 $583,514. Last month the number of pounds carried amounted to 315,452, with an estimated profit for the month of $129,005.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pensions and other benefits-
246. To provide for the payment of compassionate allowances to employees injured while in the performance of their duties, or to other persons injured while performing duties in any way connected with the postal service, or in protecting his majesty's mails, or to the dependents of such employees or other persons who may be killed while so engaged; payments to he made only on the specific authority of the governor in council, $5,000.
Mr. SHAW:: Who would be entitled to
these compassionate allowances, and what is the method of disbursement?


William Pate Mulock: This is a blanket provision for cases of this kind which may arise. This item was first inserted in the main estimates in 1924-25. Prior to that, provision was made in the supplementary estimates for specific amounts, but that meant tEat financial assistance could not be given until the supplementary estimates were passed. This sometimes worked a hardship on those persons to whom relief was to be accorded. By means of this item financial relief can be granted by the passing of an order in council. It was not necessary to use any of this vote last year.


Frederick Davis Shaw: Would this apply only to
permanent employees or to all employees?


William Pate Mulock: It would apply to any
employee injured in the course of his duties, whether he was permanent or temporary.


Roy Theodore Graham: Would the Postmaster
General be kind enough to answer the question I put before the dinner recess?

Supply-Post Office


William Pate Mulock: The hon. member for
Swift Current has been rather insistent about this matter since I was appointed. We have had a survey made of the situation in Swift Current. At the present time it is serviced from the central office. The survey shows that Swift Current is growing steadily and the growth seems to be of a permanent nature. However, on account of the war we have not been making any new extensions where this can be avoided. It is not only a question of finance; it is a question of conserving manpower. However, the matter is being watched, and if efficient service requires that something should be done, the situation will be reconsidered. I can assure the hon. member that he has not been forgotten.


Angus MacInnis: Are the post office employees covered by any form of workmen's compensation?


William Pate Mulock: The provincial compensation acts are made available to the employees through the medium of the dominion act.


Angus MacInnis: This does not cover
occasional labour?


William Pate Mulock: No. The hon. member for Lambton-Kent asked me to put something on the record dealing with this question of mail carriers. I would refer hon. members to P.C. 4960, which reads:
Whereas by orders in council P.C. 2311 of the 24th March, 1942, and P.C. 5833 of the 7th June, 1942, authority was given the Postmaster General to negotiate with contractors for the performance of mail services in the dominion, who are operating under contracts not equitable from their standpoint in view of the changed conditions owing to the war;
And w'hereas the Postmaster General reports that the power thus granted involves the cancellation of each contract so dealt with and the carrying on of the service under a temporary arrangement to cover the period up to the termination of the War Measures Act, at which time tenders must be invited to place the contract arrangements on a regular basis;
That the action taken under the power granted by these orders in council shows that the rates negotiated represent a smaller percentage increase in operation costs than is shown in the cases of tenders invited, and is therefore economically sound;
That from the outset, and since this system has been in operation, many contractors who require increased remuneration to carry on the services have stated they would very much like to revert to their present contract terms after the war;
That the terms of the contracts which have been dealt with have ben very favourable indeed from the standpoint of the Post Office Department, and possibly much more favourable than will be obtained immediately after the war; and
That, after careful study, it is considered that it would be decidedly advantageous to classify
any increases granted under this authority as in the nature of war-time bonus, retain the original contracts in operation, and revert to the actual contract terms upon termination of the War Measures Act.
Therefore, His Excellency the governor general in council, on the recommendation of the Postmaster General, is pleased to order and doth hereby order that whenever possible the contracts which have been dealt with or which may be dealt with be retained in full force and effect and that any increases granted under authority of said orders in council P.C. 2311 or P.C. 5833 be discontinued when the War Measures Act is rescinded.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Is there a complete mailing list available, say in the city of Toronto, which gives the street numbers and so on as revised from time to time? I send out a certain amount of literature as a member of parliament to a great many people in my riding, and I get a certain number of replies. I try to keep my list up to date, but changes are occurring from time to time. I was just wondering if a list were available which people could consult.


William Pate Mulock: No.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: It might save a
lot of trouble if the mailing list were made available, because when a person takes a piece of literature out to a man's address and finds he is not there he has to bring it back and then it has to be mailed back to the sender. I could never understand why the mailing list was not made available to the people. We had an example in Montreal lately in connection with an enumeration containing several wrong addresses, which could have been checked if a mailing list had been available. Would the minister tell me why it is not available?


William Pate Mulock: Because it is a householder's list; it is addressed to a house, not to an individual.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Normal services-
175. Miscellaneous maintenance and adjustments (ivar of 1914-18), $20,720.
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Following up a question I asked of the minister some time ago, has he received any report on the fire in the Regina barracks yet?


James Layton Ralston: Yes. But I have not the memorandum here. There has been no final report as yet. The fire occurred on May 25, and a board of inquiry was immediately convened. A preliminary report was received, and I think I intimated to my hon. friend generally
Supply-Defence

what was in it. Further inquiries were made by me. On June 16 we received a report that the district officer commanding considered it necessary that the court of inquiry be not pressed to conclude, because some further investigation was being made at the time. I had word about a week ago, saying that the report of the board of inquiry would be in almost immediately.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Will it be
made public?


James Layton Ralston: I do not think it will be made public, but I would have no objection to showing it to my hon. friend or any other hon. member.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Some time
ago I brought to the attention of the minister conditions in the barracks at Saskatoon. While I was west attending the military camp at Dundurn, I had occasion to make inquiry about the barracks at Saskatoon, and I was pleased to learn that there seems to be general satisfaction with the present conditions in the barracks. I think it is only fair that I should express that and the general pleasure of the men in living in barracks since steps have been taken to make them much more habitable. In his reply to me at that time the minister said, as reported at page 3160 of Hansard:
In connection with the conditions at Saskatoon, I have not had a report of the kind my hon. friend refers to. It might not come to me, but the inspector-general is rigorous in these matters. The depot at Saskatoon is to be amalgamated with Regina and the conditions that prevail there will not have to be borne very long.
I just wanted to know on what the minister based that statement. I was surprised on making inquiries to find that the depot was moved a year ago. Perhaps the minister was misinformed.


James Layton Ralston: I presume the officer
before me at the time gave me that information.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Canals service-
361. Canals - Operation and maintenance, $2,529,992.
John Ritchie MacNicol: May I ask, in reference to the Rideau' canal, what it costs to operate, how many employees are engaged in operating the canal, and what tonnage passes through the canal per year?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: In 1942, 171 vessels and 1,727 tons of freight passed through the canal. The cost of operation was $188,800.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What tonnage passed
through St. Andrew's locks on the Red river?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I have not that information.


John Ritchie MacNicol: You cannot send a boat down the river from Winnipeg without its going through St. Andrew's locks. They are north of Winnipeg on the Red river in Manitoba.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I do not think it is administered under the canals branch; it must be administered under the harbours board.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If the minister has not the information on hand1, it will do at another time.	.


Percy Chapman Black: Has any consideration been given by the department to construction of the Chignecto canal in connection with the defence ministries? It is considered by many who have given attention to the matter of the construction of this canal that if it were in existence at the present time, it would be a valuable military and naval asset; it would reduce the mileage and the dangers of transportation on the Atlantic coast and the St. Lawrence. I should also like to know whether there have been any negotiations with the United States authorities with respect to the construction of this canal, along the same line as the negotiations which were carried on with respect to the Alaska highway. I can understand there may be some necessity for secrecy in these matters. On the other hand, it is not likely that it could be built to serve in the present war, but existing world conditions and naval and military requirements would indicate an urgency for the construction of this canal, purely from a military point of view, leaving all to the good the desirability of having it as a commercial transport route. The minister understands, as do hon. members of the committee, that this canal was projected two or three hundred years ago by the early French settlers, and it would have been constructed many years ago if some engineers who were ultra modern but who, as conditions have developed, were impractical, decided that a ship canal should be constructed there to give transportation to vessels and shipping across the isthmus. The isthmus is about fifteen to sixteen miles distant. Could the minister give a statement with respect to this matter, and has he had any conferences with the ministers of defence or the United States authorities?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Since I have been in the department, no consideration has been given to this project, and I believe that none has

Supply-Transport
been given to it since 1939; that is, since the war started. No demand that I know of has been made on the department for the construction of this canal for military purposes; none has been made by the United States, and no negotiations have been carried on with the United States since the war began. I believe it would be a good post-war project, for consideration as soon as the war is over.
Mr. MaeINNIS: I have received a complaint from employees of the Welland canal, linemen, bridgemen, wiremen, weighmen, and statistical clerks. These men, I understand, are dissatisfied with wages and working conditions, and apparently they have been unable to get satisfaction from the department. They made an application for a board under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act and asked the department to concur in the recommendation. I have here a letter dated June 28, 1943 and signed by the deputy minister of transport. It is short, and I will read it:
Dear Sir,
I have your undated letter enclosing an application signed by a number of employees of the operating staff of the Welland canal, seeking the appointment of a board of conciliation to consider grievances concerning wages and the methods of promotion now in effect on the Welland canal. Upon inquiry I am advised that the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, under the provisions of which boards of conciliation and investigation may be established, is applicable to industry only, and not to the public service of Canada.
In view of the fact that apparently these employees cannot go before the tribunals set up by the government to deal with the grievances of persons in the employ of private companies and now, I believe, in some crown companies, what procedure is available in the department to adjust grievances? Is there any machinery by which employees can get their grievances heard? There is considerable information in the file which was given to me, but I have had it so short a time that I have not been able to make myself acquainted with its contents, and consequently I am not in a position to judge definitely as to what they want.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I thank my hon. friend for having given me the information and read the letter. I gather that these employees are permanent members of the staff or in the position of permanent members and they would come under the jurisdiction of the civil service commission, which has sole jurisdiction over the establishment of their classifications and their remuneration as well. Therefore their claims for increases of wages
or changes of classification must be addressed to and adjusted by the civil service commission.
Mr. MaeINNIS: I wonder whether the minister and the officers of his department gave consideration to the fact that war conditions have considerably upset normal relations in the matter of wages and working conditions. I think that particularly applies in the civil service, where conditions are much more rigid than they are in ordinary private service, or in places where employees are more free to organize and put forward their claims. Government employees see on every hand other workers improving their position, either by way of increased wages or cost of living bonus, or considerations of that kind, by making application to the various boards which the government has created to adjust their differences, although these government employees themselves cannot appeal to any such impartial tribunal to settle their disputes. Is there any way by which these people can be heard?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: So far as I am aware, there is none apart from appeal to the authority under which they are working. Those classes of employees who come within the jurisdiction of the civil service commission must appeal to the commission for readjustment of their salaries or remuneration. They can always appeal to the head of the department, but even then the head of the department cannot override the decisions of the civil service commission except by act of parliament.
Mr. MaeINNIS: That being so, when they write to the ministers' departments in matters of this kind would it not be a good policy for the head of the department to direct them to those persons to whom they should appeal in order to have adjustments made? There is nothing in this letter except the statement, "I am advised that the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act does not apply in your case," and they are left without any direction. I suggest that the officers of the department should direct them and should take a little more human interest in these employees than merely to give them a negative answer and say, you are in the wrong pew and there is nothing more to be said; you had better get out.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: If letters are addressed to the minister the writers will receive such direction as it is possible to give them.


Gordon Graydon: I believe it was the day before yesterday, or yesterday, that I handed to the Secretary of State, with reference to the
Supply-Transport

Welland ship canal operating and administrative staffs, in connection with whom complaints had been made, the correspondence in the matter with the understanding that an investigation would be made. Seeing that the minister whose estimates are now before us is directly involved, I wonder if the Secretary of State has conveyed to him any report that has been made in pursuance of the investigation which he promised to make for me.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Not yet.


Gordon Graydon: May we expect something before the end of the session? I do not want the government to fall into the habit of allowing things to die at the end of the session, because that is a habit which I fancy is easily acquired. I hope it will not be too assiduously cultivated by the administration.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I can assure my hon. friend that the representations in this matter will not die, but that as soon as possible they will be given consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canals service-
363. To provide for expenses in connection with St. Lawrence ship canal surveys and investigations, $7,500.
Gordon Graydon: Is this the annual vote, or is it new?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is the annual vote.


Gordon Graydon: It has been reduced by 50 per cent.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes. In former years it was larger, having regard to the international situation, but now it has been reduced to the normal amount of requirements.


Gordon Graydon: Is the reduction from $15,000 to $7,500 the direct result of the fact that war-time expenditures along similar lines are being made in the channel?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: There are no war-time expenditures on this. It is for metering the flow of water in the ship channel.


Agar Rodney Adamson: There is nothing new in regard to the negotiations about developments on the St. Lawrence deep waterways?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
365. Marine service administration, $15,500.
Mr. MaeINNIS: I have some questions to ask with reference to the loss of the ss. Northholm, near Cape Scott, last winter, into which an inquiry was held.
Joseph Enoil Michaud: I am under the impression that a return was made on this matter.
Mr. MaeINNIS: I do not know about a return, but the minister was good enough to send me a copy of the court's report, and it is on the strength of that that I wish to ask a question or two. The ss. Northholm foundered some time last winter-I have forgotten the date-with the loss of fifteen men, all of the crew, I believe, with the exception of two who survived, from the number who got away in lifeboats. I ask this question because I believe that someone is to blame for this loss of life in allowing this vessel to go to sea under the conditions that obtained. I have here the questions which the court was requested to answer. I do not know who formulated the questions, but here they are: Question: Did the master of the ss. Northholm take all reasonable means to save (a) the vessel, (b) the lives of those on board?
It is perhaps significant that the vessel comes first and the lives of those on board come second. The answer is:
The court thinks that more determined steps might have been taken to save the vessel and the lives of those on board, but in the absence of further evidence is not prepared to make an adverse finding in this regard.
Question: What was the cause of the loss of the vessel and the loss of life?
Answer:	(a) Insufficient margin of stability
and insecure battening down of hatches.
(b) Lack of leadership in getting the men into the lifeboat and away from the ship.
Question: Was the loss of the ss. Northholm caused or contributed to by the wrongful act or default of Frank McMahon the master, Ray Perry the mate, the owners or charterers, or any of them, and if so, which of them?
Answer:	The charterers' marine superintendent knew of the improper practice of battening down hatches as was done in this case. Subject to this, and to the answers given to questions 4 and 5, no wrongful act or default was shown.
These are the answers to the specific questions asked, but there is an annex to the report. I should like to put on record a part of this report, because I am satisfied that someone failed) to carry out the proper inspection, with the result that fifteen lives were needlessly lost. In the annex to the court's findings it is stated.
The court is of the opinion that with the deck cargo loaded as it was, the ship was not in a fit condition to proceed on the contemplated voyage, and that this was at least a contributing factor to the disaster that followed.
It should be noted that the ship was lost in a sea that was not considered at all rough. It was not a loss at sea on account of a storm; it was, as the court points out, a loss at sea on account of the way in which the

Supply-Transport
cargo was placed on the ship-I do not know the proper term for it-and because the ship was loaded beyond her capacity. The annex continues:
The court is also of opinion, after giving full consideration to all the evidence, to the material filed, and to the theories advanced, that when the vessel left Port Alice she did not have a sufficient margin of stability; that during the passage to Cape Scott such margin disappeared, due to water finding its way through the improper hatch coverings, saturating the deck cargo, and percolating into the hold. This resulted in an increasing list which eventually laid the engine room and stokehold open to the sea, and caused the vessel to founder.
The court, in view of the special features of this inquiry, thought it well to hear certain hearsay evidence which was tendered. In coming to its conclusions such evidence was ignored.
There was great difficulty in getting evidence in the case, because all but two of the crew had been lost, and the evidence of the two members who were saved after a terrible experience at sea, during which three or four others in the same boat had perished from the cold, was rather inconclusive or perhaps incoherent. From what I have read, however, and from the whole of this report I think responsibility should be placed on someone, because someone was guilty of allowing this vessel to go to sea under the conditions outlined in this report. I should like to know what steps the minister is taking to place that responsibility where it belongs.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: In the first place the hon. member understands that this was a private boat, not a boat owned by the government.


Angus MacInnis: It was not a boat owned by the government, but has not the government a certain responsibility, under the Canada Shipping Act, for the inspection of boats, of tackle and all that pertains to boats?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I quite agree, but I wanted to establish that point first for the record. Under the Canada Shipping Act there is responsibility for inspection and also for checking the conduct and qualifications of certificated officers, if there were any on board, and there must have been at least one. All these matters have been investigated to a certain point. As to placing final responsibility by the department on any one person, I must confess that we have not yet reached that point. The findings of the investigation which was held, part of the findings of which has been read by the hon. member, have been under consideration; we are in communication with the marine officers on the Pacific coast with a view to clearing up this situation, but we
have not yet come to a conclusion as to who is directly, finally responsible for the accident.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
368.	Marine service steamers, including icebreakers-maintenance, operation and repairs, $1,357,000.
Gordon Graydon: Will any part of this money be utilized in keeping open the channel between Tormentine and Borden?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: This money is for the operating expenses of these boats. They are on regular runs, and unless they are assigned to a particular duty at a particular time they are not required to take special assignments or runs. As to the specific question in regard to the channel between Tormentine and Borden, there is no special schedule or assignment for any boat to do that work. It has been done when required, when any of the ice-breakers were available, and could reach the place.


Gordon Graydon: Is the channel between Wood island and Cariboo kept open during any of the winter months?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No special assignment.


Percy Chapman Black: There was some discussion with respect to the matter of transportation between Prince Edward Island and the mainland earlier in the session. Since that time, has any progress been made with respect to the procurement of a suitable ferry boat or a more adequate stand-by in the event of any serious accident to the present boat? There is no necessity to repeat the urgency for this provision, because the entire traffic from the mainland to Prince Edward Island depends upon this ferry service, which, as everybody recognizes, is inadequate. What progress has been made in the last two or three months with respect to procuring a new boat, or a stand-by for the present boat?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It has been impossible to find a suitable boat on the north American continent. With regard to procuring a standby I would say we have one specifically assigned to be used as a stand-by to the Prince Edward Island in the event of an emergency. But some progress has been made in developing the plans, if it is built in Canada, of a larger ferry boat which would be the main ferry between these two points. Under those circumstances the Prince Edward Island would revert to the position of stand-by.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Transport
[Stage Direction]
Marine service-
369.	Construction, maintenance and supervision of aids to navigation, including salaries and allowances to lightkeepers, $1,980,128.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Has any effort been made by the department to improve navigation on the Mackenzie river? At this time of the year, and in any event a little later in the season, north of Great Slave lake there is swift water, and it is necessary to pull the boats up the river. This is done by the use of a capstan and a long cable. Down the river there is considerable traffic, amounting to many thousands of tons a year. These are good boats, and passengers find it bothersome to have the ship anchored in the middle of the river and to have to wait until someone goes up the river with the cable, connects it on the shore to the capstan so as to pull the boat up the river. It is about time something was done by the department to improve navigation on that great river. I believe there is no doubt traffic would increase if the service vere improved.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The only work by way of improvement which has been done in that section in the last few years has been some dredging by the Department of Transport. I understand that the Department of Public Works has done some other work, but I am not familiar with the nature of it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
370.	Agencies, salaries and office expenses, $286,165.
Gordon Graydon: What is meant by the term "agencies"?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: They are the different marine divisions in Canada ranging between Prince Edward Island and Victoria. They are at Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, Prescott, Parry Sound, Victoria and Prince Albert.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
371.	Maintenance and repairs to wharves, $5,000.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: Is $5,000 sufficient to maintain and improve wharves?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The major repairs to wharves in Canada are made by the Department of Public Works. This refers to minor repairs to certain wharves from which we derive some revenue. We employ at least the amount of revenue we get from them in making repairs to suit the convenience of those using the wharves.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Where are those
wharves?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: There are about 2,000 across Canada.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: That works out to about $2.50 each.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: About that.


Mr. NEILL:: I suggest this item should be cut out altogether, and the money taken out of the ordinary vote for public wharves, which is something like $100,000 for British Columbia alone. This item is a perfect nuisance in this sense: the rule is that any expenditure on a public wharf under $50 is done by the marine branch. If it is over that amount it must be done by the Department of Public Works. This very often results in confusion. Someone will report that a wharf needs repairs. A man will be sent, at an expense of about $100, to look into it. He may decide that the amount required to make the repair is $48.50, and therefore he washes his hands of it and makes a report to the agent of marine. Then, he will send a boat out or perhaps makes an inspection himself, and finds that the expenditure required would be $51.80, and that, therefore, he could not do it. Then it goes back to the Department of Public Works.
The Department of Public Works maintain an efficient staff of competent men, men who are thoroughly familiar with the making and repairing of wharves, and they go round periodically to make inspections. It would save a lot of trouble and bother if this were all under that department. The agent of marine looks at lighthouses, and things like that. It would be much better, and it would save a lot of trouble if wharf repairs were done by the Department of Public Works. Officials of that department make periodical inspection every year or as often as necessary; when they find little repairs are needed, they cannot do them, and they have to be taken over by the other department, with all the red tape and intercommunication involved. I cannot see how anything is a bit better, and certainly the public service is worse off with this arrangement, and we have a good deal of unnecessary trouble.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I am glad of the suggestion made by the hon. member, and we will take it into serious consideration. Wharves are looked after by the Department of Transport, although they are built by the Department of Public Works. Lightkeepers are authorized to make minor repairs. They may repair a light when they find it is damaged. In the different buildings there are stoves and heaters which sometimes require minor repairs, and they are authorized to do

Supply-Transport
them up to $50. It may be better to have this done under Department of Public Works, and I shall look into the matter and make a recommendation.


Alan Webster Neill: I was not talking about the lights, I was talking about public wharves.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: It seems to me that one might as well move that the vote be reduced to one dollar because I think it is silly to have it in here. However, I shall not do that now, but do not let us have it in the estimates next year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
STS. Administration of pilotage, $142,510.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: Does this cover the great lakes or just ocean ports?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Wherever there are pilots.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service
[Stage Direction]
STli. Life saving service, including rewards for saving life, $43,560.
Gordon Graydon: Session after session, as this item has come up, the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) has taken a very active part in the debate, referring particularly to the need for life saving facilities on lake Simcoe, the lakes of the Muskoka district and the general lake Ontario area. The hon. member has suggested some important reforms in connection with life saving, pointing out, as the minister will recall or certainly as his predecessor will recall, that many sections of the lake must rely for life saving facilities upon what is supplied by metropoltan centres like Toronto. I draw this to the minister's attention and ask him if any such reforms have been made by the government. May I also inquire who have received these rewards during the past year ? I think it would be a matter of national pride and interest to have on the record the names of those who have been rewarded.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The government has not yet decided to establish life saving stations on the inland waters of Canada. The only stations we have are on the Atlantic and Pacific coasts. We have not the names of those who have received rewards during the past year, because these are made by the humane societies, not by the department. A list could be procured and given to my hon. friend.


Gordon Graydon: I think the minister could consider adopting this suggestion. It often happens that those persons who are rewarded do not receive the recognition in the house to which they are entitled.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I think the suggestion is a good one and I will see that it is carried out.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The particulars of this vote to be found on page 219 of the estimates show four coxswains, four engineers and one second coxswain, or a total of nine men. There cannot be much life saving done with such a small number of men. The city of Toronto has its own life saving crews and equipment. I do not know whether Hamilton has, but I presume it would have similar crews and equipment. To what cities does this vote apply?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It does not apply to any city.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Where are these nine
people operating from?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: My information is that there is a most efficient life saving station at Toronto operated by the city.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I said that.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The stations operated by the department are at Banfield, British Columbia; Clayoquot, British Columbia; Bay view, Nova Scotia; and Littlewood island, New Brunswick.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Toronto and other ports on the great lakes have most efficient life saving facilities. A greater tonnage of ships passes through the Soo canal than through any other canal in the world. In spite of the great number of ships that come down through lake Superior to lake Huron and lake Ontario, we do not get a nickel from the dominion government for life saving services. Toronto and other places on the Georgian bay have life saving crews, and I am proud of the work that has been done. Over a- period of years loss of life on the great lakes has been quite small when one considers the difficulties of navigation and the lateness in the year, some time toward the end of December, that grain is brought down. It is only on two or three occasions that there has been any loss of life.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
875. To provide subsidies for wrecking plants -Quebec and British Columbia, $45,000.
Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: I should like to ask a question which may not come under this particular item. On page 15 of the Ottawa Citizen of this evening I notice that a special train of twenty cars is [bringing race horses to the Connaught track, and that on Tuesday night another special train will be sent into Connaught. The people in my province are

Supply-Transport

told that they must curtail their travelling, but if this matter comes under wrecking I would direct attention to the fact that these race horses are being brought in to Connaught race track.
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
' S77. Miscellaneous services relating to navigation and shipping, including grants towards schools of navigation at Queen's university, $500, Vancouver, B.C., $1,500, and provision to settle claims by the board of trade, London, England, for expenses incurred in respect of Canadian distressed seamen of British ships registered out of Canada, $49,895.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I wish to commend this vote, but I must say that $600 in the previous vote for the sailors' institute at Port Arthur is very small.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.	.
Marine service
[Stage Direction]
S80. River St. Lawrence ship channel-Contract dredging in the St. Lawrence river and Montreal harbour, including cost of administration-capital, $989,500.
John Ritchie MacNicol: This amount has been reduced by over $1,000,000, with which reduction I am sure everyone is pleased. I have noticed lately that the water in Montreal harbour is higher than in other years, and I would ask the minister whether one of the reasons is the diversion into the great lakes of water from northern Ontario, particularly from the ICenogami river.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I am told that the increased volume of water in Montreal harbour this summer is on account of natural conditions, not to any diversion of water.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Whoever gave the minister that information has not given him correct information. That is the main reason, but another reason is that at present 1,200 cubic feet per second of water is being diverted from the Kenogami river into lake Superior and that is having an effect on the depth of water in Montreal harbour. Will the minister kindly convey that information to whoever gave him the information.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway service-
Repairs and expenses in connection with the operation and maintenance of official railway cars under the jurisdiction of the department, $39,370.
George Alexander Cruickshank: In the Fraser
Valley to-day we have to transport haymakers from one district to another and we are not permitted any extra gasoline for that purpose. This is in order, Mr. Chairman,

and I want it to be put on the record. It has to do with the railways. I quote from the Ottawa Citizen of to-day's date:
On Tuesday night another special will be sent up to Connaught park. Some of the horses will be vanned up and by Thursday next there will be about four hundred thoroughbreds within the Connaught park enclosure.
In British Columbia a van means a truck, and I feel bitterly that we are not allowed extra gasoline to transport haymakers from one part of the Fraser Valley to another while race horses for Connaught Park can be put into vans and hauled up and down the country.


James Joseph McCann: Order. The discussion must be relevant to the item before the committee, which has to do with official railway cars.


George Alexander Cruickshank: All right. I do not particularly care that some people from British Columbia seem to agree that I am out of order on this point, but I feel bitterly that railway cars should be used to transport horses for race track purposes, so that officials of the wartime prices and trade board can play around at Connaught park when the farmers of my constituency cannot get extra gasoline to transport haymakers to where they are needed in the Fraser Valley.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


George Alexander Cruickshank: If I am out of order, Mr. Chairman, I will sit down.


James Joseph McCann: The hon. member is out of order.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The hon. member for Fraser Valley had the floor, and if he is out of order I think the Chair should state why he is out of order.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


James Joseph McCann: I brought to the attention of the hon. member that the discussion must be relevant to the item before us, which has to do with official railway cars and not race horses.


Mr. FAIR:: I may possibly be out of
order too, but the first items were passed so quickly that I was not quite prepared. In certain small stations a certain amount of business has to originate before the railways will maintain an agent there. There is a rumour that the railway companies are asking the board of transport commissioners to have that amount of business increased. I would ask the minister if there is any truth in that rumour, and, if so, will the people in the

Supply-Transport
district have an opportunity of making an appeal to the board of transport commissioners?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I think the hon. member is right in saying that it is the policy of the railways to require a certain amount of business at a station to maintain an agent there, but I could not say whether the railways have made application to the board of transport commissioners to increase the amount of business required to maintain an agent. The department has not yet been informed of that.


Robert Fair: In case such an application is
made by the railways, would the minister see that the districts affected have an opportunity to present their views?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Certainly.


Robert Fair: I have one more question in
connection with, a decision made by the board of transport commissioners in March, 1942. It is in connection with decisions which have been made by the board of transport commissioners in March, 1942, and again recently, opening up the facilities at railway stations, even where elevators are located, allowing truckers to use their mechanical loaders which they have on their trucks, as well as portable loaders.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I have no knowledge of such an order.


Robert Fair: I just wish to make a protest
in connection with this. Farmers and farm organizations have been working hard in order to get the grain act amended so that abuses of the grain trade may be done away with; but if this decision stands and this practice is permitted to continue, I am afraid that a number of old abuses which took years to get rid of will be brought into being again. I am making this plea because I understand that certain companies are sending their agents out to the farm, buying bins of grain on sample, and at a certain price per bushel; . there is no guarantee of grade, dockage or weight. They hire these trucks with mechanical loaders or in some cases use portable loaders at sidings to load the grain, and in some cases it has been found that the car leaks before it gets to the terminal so that the farmer loses the amount of grain which leaks out along the way. Several other abuses have been indicated to me. I would ask that this decision of the board of transport commissioners be gone into again with a view to withdrawing from truckers or truck companies the right to use their mechanical loaders or portable loaders at places where elevators are available. I am quite satisfied that a farmer or a number of
72537-333}
farmers shall use their own mechanical loaders and portable loaders for their own accommodation; that is a right principle; then the farmers are looking after their own interests.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway service-
383. Hudson Bay railway-Construction and improvements-capital, $61,000.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: The Hudson Bay railway has served a useful purpose and in the future will prove much more serviceable. A great many changes are taking place in these days in connection with railway transportation and haulage, particularly in respect of motive power. Would the minister give a little statement as to what is taking place in the development of motive power for the Hudson Bay railway? At the present time it is most important that we should have on all the main railway systems every locomotive which can possibly be handled, but at the same time the Hudson Bay railway needs to be serviced. Developments which have taken place include diesel electric locomotives, turbine locomotives, and things of that kind. What is being done by way of providing the necessary motive power as well as releasing such power as can be made available for other railways?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The Hudson Bay railway proper does not own any equipment. All the equipment used on that line is rented from the Canadian National railway system. I do not know of any plans whereby special equipment is being designed or manufactured for that railway. The only equipment which is being used is of the kind required for the moving of freight and of passengers occasionally.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I suggest that we might discuss items 383 and 384 together. I think they are both on the same basis. The minister's remarks do not answer my question. As Minister of Transport he ought to know something about the Canadian National Railways as well. He says that all the equipment is being hired from the Canadian National Railways. I should like to know something about the whole situation. How much freight is going over the Hudson Bay railway at the present time; what are its requirements, and why is $200,000 needed in the current year? I suppose it is to take care of debts. What equipment have we there, and can it be replaced if necessary with other equipment?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I just informed the hon. gentleman that we have no equipment on that road. What is being used is the equipment of the Canadian National railways, which operates
Supply-Transport

that Churchill branch. The government built the line, but it is being operated by the Canadian National railways, whose equipment is being used, as on any other section of the Canadian National railway system.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: That does not
answer the question. I have had so much respect for the minister based upon his administration of the Department of Fisheries [DOT]that I thought that probably, when he got to this new position, he would be able to tell us all about it, for he is quite versatile. What I wish to know is the position with regard to the Canadian National and the Hudson Bay railways. Does the government operate the Hudson Bay railway, or is it leased to the Canadian National railways? What equipment is used, and is a deficit unavoidable? Are we using the road to the best advantage?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I have already stated
twice that the Canadian government does not operate the so-called Hudson Bay railway. The railway is being operated by the Canadian National railways on behalf of the Canadian government, and all the equipment used belongs to the Canadian National railways. There are two regular trains each week which operate from July 11 between the Pas and Churchill. 'One is a mixed train with sleeping and dining-ear accommodation, and the other is a way-freight with day coach only. No grain was moved for export during the year, the elevator at Churchill remaining filled to capacity with grain handled in previous years.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Why do we put up $200,000 and $61,000?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: That is for the coming year. I mentioned 1942-43.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Why do we need this money?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is to cover any possible deficit for the current year.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I have one suggestion to make. Would it not be better if the Canadian National Railways took over the railway and ran it?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: That is what they are doing; they are running it.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Then, why do we need to have $200,000 in the votes? Why does it not come out of the Canadian National Railways?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I thought my hon. friend knew the history of the Hudson Bay railway.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Yes, I understand
it.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: If the hon. member understands it, why such questions?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Why not let the Canadian National Railways take it over and run it?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is the $61,000 not for capital expenditures, included in which are new sidings?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Which are very necessary. I congratulate the people who are operating the railway upon reducing the deficit from $490,000, as shown in item 384, to $290,000. It shows what can be done by the management. It is a good management. I know some of the men at the Pas, and they deserve credit for what they have been doing.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Items 383 and 384 have
been pretty well discussed. Shall the items carry?


[Stage Direction]
Items agreed to.
Maritime Freight Rates Act-
385. To hereby authorize and provide for the payunent from time to time during the fiscal year 1943-44 to the Canadian National Railway Company of the difference (estimated by the Canadian National Railway Company and certified by the auditors of the said company to the Minister of Transport as and when required by the said minister) occuring on account of the application of the Maritime Freight Rates Act, between the tariff tolls and the normal tolls (upon the same basis as set out in section 9 of the said act with respect to companies therein referred to) on all traffic moved during the calendar year 1943 under the tariffs approved on the eastern lines (as referred to in section 2 of the said act) of the Canadian National Railways, $3,350,000.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: The Minister of Transport was formerly Minister of Fisheries, and many times he and I had arguments across the floor as to why we in the central provinces cannot get fish at reasonable prices. I am going to bring up this question again.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Because you do not go fishing.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I am quite serious; all joking aside. In these days when there is such a scarcity of meat we wonder why we in the central provinces cannot have the railways carry our fish to central Canada so that the people in Toronto, instead of having to pay at the present time 20 cents a pound for codfish, might get that fish at a more reasonable price. I am discussing this matter because the minister has occupied both positions. We have to pay 20 cents a pound and the fisherman in the east gets 2 cents a pound; it used to be three-quarters of a cent a pound.

Supply-Transport
In certain seasons of the year the people in the maritime provinces have shad, and ale-wives, which are a delicious fish if you do not mind taking out the bones. The minister knows all about this and he can tell us why we cannot get their fish. We in Ontario, the people on lake Ontario, are doing a very good job. I see the minister representing the Hamilton district coming in. He knows what a good job his people are doing, selling whitefish and getting marvellous prices for it. It helps in our balance of trade. Why can we not get some fish from the maritime provinces? I do not see how anyone can possibly account for the difference between 2 cents paid to the fishermen there and 20 cents charged to the consumer in Ontario. It is a shame that these fish are used as manure. I repeat, I cannot understand why we cannot obtain shad and gaspereaux from the maritime provinces. Cannot the minister do something about getting fish from the maritimes to us in Ontario? The people in the maritime provinces have always complained that we can ship our products there, while they have no opportunity to reciprocate. I am pleading with the minister to give them an opportunity to send their fish to us, because this comes right under the head of railways. That is where it belongs- transportation, refrigeration and so on. Perhaps in that part of the country they do not get ice; the hon. member for Queens-Lunen-burg (Mr. Kinley) will tell me. At any rate we could not ship our ice from Ontario to freeze the fish there. Surely something could be done about the matter. I have brought it up four or five times, and I am trying to do it to-night in a humorous way. We have spent thousands of dollars to get the people fish-wise -not fishwives.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Alewives.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: This is the first time I have been able to corner the minister now that he has had experience in both departments, and I urge upon him that he do something to make it possible for us to get products from the maritime provinces. We will take their fish, but I do not see why we should have to pay through the nose for them when some of them are thrown away and used for manure. It is a crying shame that something more is not done to move fish from the maritimes to the people of Ontario. That is all I have to say.


Percy Chapman Black: I am glad the hon. member for St. Paul's has a word to say about the fisheries in the maritime provinces. On behalf of the maritime provinces I express appreciation of this vote, which has appeared
in our estimates from year to year. The man who has been responsible to the greatest extent for this vote on maritime freight rates was the late Colonel Gordon S. Harrington, who, I regret to say, passed away two or three weeks ago. He was the person who largely prepared the case and had this recognition given the producers of the maritime provinces so as to compensate at least partly for the discrimination against the maritimes in the handling of freight between that part of the country and central Canada.
I also wish to express again our appreciation of the work of the commission which sat at that time, consisting of Sir Andrew Rae Duncan, from England, the hon. member for Queens (Mr. Macmillan) and the late Judge Wallace. They brought in this finding, which was adopted by the Canadian parliament and which has been of great benefit to the people of the maritimes. Of course no payments to equalize freight rates could ever compensate producers in the maritime provinces for the handicaps under which they operate in relation to the rest of Canada.
The next item has to do with branch lines in the maritime provinces, two of which are in my constituency of Cumberland. It was unfortunate for the residents of that part of the maritimes served by these branch lines that they were not made part of the Canadian National Railways when so many of the other branch lines were taken over. As it is, the residents and producers along these branch lines have to pay a double freight rate. If these lines had been taken over, as was the case with most of the other branch lines in the maritime provinces, the freight rates would be established on a mileage basis instead of on the basis of these small railway units.
I simply wanted to give recognition to those men who accomplished so much for the maritime provinces, and to express the appreciation of the maritimes to the government for continuing this vote.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Government employees' compensation-
587. Administration of the Government Employees' Compensation Act, $24,735.
Gordon Graydon: Is this the item, together with the statutory item just below, under which the rather extraordinary expenditures in the Montreal district which were aired in the house a short time ago, in connection with Doctor Chartier, would come?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Part of it would come
under this item and part under the war vote.
Supply-Transport


Gordon Graydon: In view of the revelations made in the house at that time, has the minister conducted any investigation in regard to that matter? If so, I should like to have his report.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I have made an investigation, and I find that there was no revelation except the amount of money that was paid to Doctor Chartier for his professional services, which was disclosed at the request of the hon. member. The dominion compensation act provides that federal employees in the provinces shall be compensated for injuries or accidents under the provisions of the provincial laws. The compensation act of Quebec provides that dominion employees come under schedule 2, and the government is directly responsible for compensation to the employees for injuries, medical services and hospital fees.


Gordon Graydon: I think the minister gave this explanation on the previous occasion. I was not asking for a repetition of that explanation; what I was really seeking was some report by the minister as to whether or not, after investigating the rather large fees which had been collected from the government by Doctor Chartier, the government had come to the conclusion that the amount was extraordinarily high and, if so, what the government intended to do about it.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The inquiry I made satisfied me that though the total amount was large, the fees were paid in accordance with the provisions of the workmen's compensation act of the province of Quebec, and were checked in each instance by the treasury department of the federal government. The amount appeared large because Doctor Chartier operates a clinic in Montreal, and his services were resorted to both by the dominion government compensation officers and the provincial commission in following up cases, in regard to both radiotherapy and X-ray work. Many cases also arose in war industries in the Montreal area during the last two years, and many serious accidents which were followed up by the officers of the department required the professional advice of Doctor Chartier and the members of his clinic, whose charges were in accordance with the schedule of fees provided by the Quebec act. We could not reduce those charges, nor could we dispute them; they had to be paid, and I am told that the officers of the treasury department and of this branch "of the service, who have been administering the branch for ten or fifteen years, are satisfied that all the money which was paid to Doctor Chartier and other

doctors was in accordance with the schedule of fees, and that it had to be paid in accordance with the provisions of the Quebec act.


Gordon Graydon: I have no desire to continue the controversy at this time; rather I am desirous of seeing the item passed. I take issue with the minister, however, in regard to the amount which was paid; for despite the casual inquiry which he appears to have made, I must confess that I remain unconvinced that this practice should be continued in the years to come, because I think it is an extraordinarily large amount of money to pay in these circumstances.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway service-
392.	To provide for the discharge of commitments incurred prior to March 31, 1943, under authority of vote No. 408, schedule A to the Appropriation Act No. 5, 1942, respecting highway crossings of railways (revote), $23,870.
Gordon Graydon: I take it that this is a
discharge of commitments entered into prior to March 31, 1943, and has to do with level
crossings; is that correct?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.


Gordon Graydon: Are there many instances in the past year where level crossings have been installed, and where the dominion has to make some proportion of the payment?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: There are no new undertakings, but there are two projects which had been started and have been completed. One is at Val Brillant, in the county of Matapedia, Quebec, and the other is at Morrison's crossing over the Canadian Pacific raihvay and the Canadian National railways, at Fredericton, New Brunswick.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service
[Stage Direction]
393.	Air service administration, $11,250.
Gordon Graydon: Over what part of the
air service does the minister have jurisdiction?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The civil aviation, or air service, is administered by the Department of Transport. By virtue of an order in council in 1940 the Minister of Munitions and Supply has kept supervision over the air service, although it is administered by my department. It is jointly administered, but the responsibility, through the order in council, is on the Department of Munitions and Supply for the time being.


Gordon Graydon: 
Joseph Enoil Michaud: This was done in ,1940 when the adminstration of the Department of Transport and the Department of Public Works was placed under the same minister. The Minister of Munitions and Supply, who had initiated the trans-Canada air service, by arrangement with the then minister kept supervision over that branch of the service. Since I have taken charge of the department I have been satisfied with that arrangement, and the Minister of Munitions and Supply and myself have cooperated in administering the service.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I have a word to say about this service. I suppose Toronto was the first place in Canada which showed any interest in air service. We had McCurdy, and many other people who knew a great deal about flying in the early days. Then, a lot of our lads were in the first war-and I would refer particularly to Bishop and Barker. Then we come to an experimental stage, during which Casey Baldwin and John McCurdy were active.
Now, through their effort, and through the efforts of people in the United States, such as the Curtiss boys, we have a marvellous airforce. We have marvellous machines. To-day we hear a lot about the Mosquito, which is being built in Toronto. In that city we are air-minded, and we were air-minded as far back as 1935. We made up our minds we needed an airport. We got busy and made many applications for the installation of that airport. Finally it was installed on Toronto island* That was the logical place for it, so far as civil aviation out of Toronto was concerned. A general election came along, and it appeared that some people were annoyed with that election. The result was that plans for a tunnel between the western gap and the airport were never completed. The reason given was that the airport would not be any good. A project worth hundreds of thousands of dollars was abandoned'-and abandoned for political purposes. The result is that we have not got that tunnel, and must use the ferry boat to cross to the island. I charge this government with non-completion of the tunnel. The airport at Toronto island affords first-class landing facilities both for land planes and seaplanes. Toronto was willing to install the necessary sand pumps required to pump the sand. I am
making these statements only to show what can happen. Now, to-day, if you want to take an airplane, what have you to do?


Mr. FRASER (Northumberland):: Get on the plane.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Oh, that is what the hon. member thinks you have to do. He is always on a plane, as far as I can see.


William Alexander Fraser: I may be on a plane, but you are in the air.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: You are in the sky; but probably a little bit later you will be down lower; I cannot tell now. After years of effort our airport was installed, and it is one of the finest in Canada.


William Alexander Fraser: At Trenton, did the hon. member say?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Order; let us get on with the business of the committee.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The hon. member is trying to tell me something, and I do not know what he is saying. I think he said something about Trenton, which is a little village near the Trent canal. Yes; that is the place where the Trent canal goes through- and some government or another spent millions of dollars on it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I rise to a point of order. There are serious-minded members in this committee who wish to get down to the business before it. I ask you, Mr. Chairman, to keep hon. members to a discussion of the item.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: If the hon .member will leave me alone I will go on with what I have to say. I am talking about civil aviation, and I do not see why the hon. member for Vancouver Centre should get so sore about it.


James Joseph McCann: The item under consideration is air service administration. I think what the hon. member is discussing is the next item which covers civil aviation.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I suggest that we take the two items together so that we can make a little progress. We have a lot of difficulty, but we put in an airport at Malton and it is one of the finest in Canada. But there is another wonderful site that could be developed. We must not forget that Canada will be the centre of the air world. Along with the United States, the British empire will be the most important factor in civil aviation,
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and Canada will be the centre of this air traffic. Toronto, and Winnipeg as well, are going to have no small place in that aviation world. All you have to do is look at the globe and see how close places are when you go over the north pole.
Some mistakes have been made, and one great mistake was made at Toronto. We have one of the finest locations in the world for an airport, but for political reasons an airport was built at Malton. Had this other site been developed a man could go from the Royal York hotel through the tunnel, and take the plane for Montreal or any other place on this continent. Instead of that he has to motor out to Malton over bum roads, or he used to until my leader got after them. I am simply pointing out the mistakes that have been made. We should not overlook Canada's place in the aviation world of the future. At one time the best aviation service you could get was given by the Dutch, and the next best was by the English, but we in Canada will be in a position to give service par excellence, working in conjunction with the rest of the empire.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil aviation division-
39/i. Control of civil aviation, including the administration of the Aeronautics Act and regulations issued thereunder, $257,670.
Arthur Graeme Slaght: I think this item and the three following items could well be lumped together. I have just this word to say to the minister and also to the Minister of Munitions and Supply, because there is joint administration here. I should like the administration and the government to see to it that at the earliest date possible conferences are arranged between this country, the motherland and other commonwealth nations in order to plan now for a world civil aviation service in the days to come. I think it was yesterday or the day before that some one in the British house, I am not sure whether it was Mr. Atlee, commented on the place that Canada would occupy in future civil aviation. There is no doubt that to a large extent air service will replace marine service, and the empire has been supreme in marine service for a century. We should overlook no steps which would enable us to carry on, in friendly cooperation with our great neighbour to the south. That country has indicated that it is quite prepared to cooperate with the commonwealth in seeing to it that civil aviation is made available throughout, the world so that distances may be annihilated and that the peoples of the different nations may travel more rapidly and more frequently. Again let me press 
upon these two ministers and the government the necessity of communicating with the mother country and other commonwealth nations to bring about early conferences on this important subject.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil aviation division
[Stage Direction]
S95. Airways and airports-construction and improvements, including lighting and radio facilities-capital, $1,512,520.
Douglas King Hazen: How much has been spent by provinces during the last fiscal year on the operation and maintenance of airways and airports? The details shown on page 223 of the estimates show an amount of $1,446,900, but I take it that this is estimated. What is the actual amount?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The division of the moneys allotted is not made by provinces; it is made by airports.


Douglas King Hazen: These airports are situated in the different provinces.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: 
Douglas King Hazen: I think something else is
included there. I was asking for construction
and improvements.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: That is what I gave.


Douglas King Hazen: But it included salaries and cost of living bonus.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: That is the salaries of
the engineers who work on the improvements.


Douglas King Hazen: Are the figures the minister
has just given for construction or for improvements?

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Joseph Enoil Michaud: Both; construction and
improvements.


Douglas King Hazen: Can the minister give the
committee a break-down between construction and improvements?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No.


Douglas King Hazen: Surely there is a difference between them. What did the new work amount to last year?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The work I have enumerated was all improvements to old fields. No new fields were constructed under this item.


Douglas King Hazen: What was the total of the
figures the minister gave?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It was $1,301,606.47.


Percy Chapman Black: What are
the projects for the current year for which this money is being appropriated? I might point out that this appropriation' has the general commendation, of the country. A great deal of this expenditure when properly made will represent an asset to Canada for all time. If the minister noted carefully the expenditures for last year, he must have seen that they were mostly made in central and western Canada, and not to any great extent in my province. At the town of Amherst there is a fine airport which should be further improved. The citizens of that town have contributed toward it perhaps to a greater extent than have citizens to any other airport in Canada by providing the land and contributing fifty per cent of the cost of construction. It is true that the minister's department completed some of the work that was undertaken, but still more work should be done to complete that port. I would also point out to the minister the necessity of building more emergency landing fields in my constituency. In the community of Parrsboro there have been a number of forced landings. There is a site available there now at a very low cost indeed. It is a natural airfield, and even if it were necessary to use it only as an emergency landing field, it would prove a safe landing field both for planes of the air force and commercial planes operating in that territory.
There are other airfields in Nova Scotia which I think should be completed. Appropriations have been made for airfields at New Glasgow, for instance, and other places. That work should be completed. As I have pointed out, if this work is properly done, it will not only provide safety for those who fly over the territory, but represent an asset for all time.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has this vote anything
to do with the airfields at Grand Prairie, Fort St. John, Peace River, Fort Nelson and White Horse?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No, those are all war
services out of the war appropriation.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The votes pertaining to these fields?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.


Percy Chapman Black: Has the minister a list of the projects that are to be undertaken during the current year? If it is too long to read, perhaps he could put it on Hansard.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I will read it. It is as
follows:
Vancouver	 $ 16.000
Lethbridge	 12,000
Calgary	 14,000
Edmonton	 24,500
Regina	 19,500
Kenora	 19,000
Armstrong	 261,000
Kapuskasing	 214,000
North Bay	 4.000
Malton	 12,000
London	 14,500
Windsor	 120,050
Ottawa	 176.000
Dorval	 74.000
Monoton	 75,000
Old Glory	 3,000
General unforeseen expenses....	43,665


Percy Chapman Black: There is no provision at all for Nova Scotia?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: There is one for Moncton.


Percy Chapman Black: That is New Brunswick. Have any proposals been considered or approved by the department for building emergency landing fields as a measure of safety for the air force and civilian aviation?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: There are about 100 emergency landing fields on the Trans-Canada Air Lines which were built before the war.


Percy Chapman Black: Are any under contemplation at the present time to be built, or are there to be any extensions?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: There is nothing contemplated out of the civil appropriations for new fields this year.


Percy Chapman Black: Before this item passes I wish to emphasize the wisdom of building a greater number of these landing fields not only to save the lives of the plane operators and passengers but to prevent destruction of the planes themselves, which cost many thousands of dollars. Some of these planes are valuable, running into as much as

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$500,000. Emergency landing fields are the cheapest kind of insurance for such planes, apart altogether from the factor of safety of passengers and crew, insurance on the lives of these people who fly in these planes, and insurance against property damage.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: Mr. Chairman, before you proceed to the next item, I would move that the committee continue to sit after eleven o'clock. I have discussed this with the leaders of the other parties and they are agreeable to go on until twelve o'clock. I think we could make some progress and better ensure finishing up this week.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Civil aviation division-
396. Airways and airports-Operation and maintenance, including lighting, radio and meteorological services, $1,921,010.
Thomas Reid: May I ask if out of this appropriation any money will be expended on the airport known as the Vancouver airport, which is situate not at Vancouver but on Sea island, in the constituency of New Westminster? What is the set-up there? Is the property leased from the city of Vancouver? Under what conditions are all the facilities operating?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: We have in our estimates $16,000 to improve the lighting at the airport.


Thomas Reid: Is a rental paid for that to the city of Vancouver?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: One dollar a year, I am told, during the war.


George Taylor Fulford: I would ask that the page boys be allowed to go home. They have been here since eleven o'clock this morning, and it is too bad to ask them to stay any later.


Douglas King Hazen: I would ask the minister to give us a break-down of the amount which was expended last year under this heading for repairs and maintenance of aerodromes, aircraft, buildings and equipment. The estimated amount is $340,420, the fourth item on page 225 of the estimates.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I can give the complete cost of repairs and maintenance, including the salaries for the work done at six terminal airports:
Moncton, $39,979.70; Dorval, $88,535.72; Ottawa, $52,471.99; Kapuskasing, $32,795.65; North Bay, $50,335.23; Armstrong, $7,587.46.
Hundred-mile fields:	Charlottetown, Si ,-
551.83; Blissville, $4,144.85; Rimouski,

$3,419.58; Megantic, $12,709.26; Killaloe, $7,620.68; Muskoka, $8,501.74; Earlton, $6,426.36; Porquis, $12,810.73; Pagwa, $7,907.98; Nakina, $6,872.84; Sioux Lookout, $5,266.12; Kenora, $3,763.42; Rivers, $1,813.93; Broadview, $5,038.63; Ponoka, $982.31; Swift Current, $3,791.49; Cowley, $2,616.37; Cranbrook, $85.86; Kimberley, $2,376.38; Princeton, $2,945.56; Penticton, $2,172.38; Penhold, $2,863.66.
Intermediate aerodromes: Brockway, $138; Havelock, $138.80; Bishopton, $611.46; South River, $184.28; Round Lake, $323.26; Ra-more, $1,134.48; Hearst, $171.49; Nagogami, $1.69; Gillies, $1,068.07; Emsdale, $1,686.09; Diver, $1,248.95; Vivian, $278.78; Vermilion, Bay, $148.22; Sunstrum, $1,097.97; Amesdale, $949.68; Allenwater, $1,193.74; Caddy Lake, SI,179.79; Kowkash, $1,247.61; Grant, $1; Graham, $2,472.97; Bow Island, $1,032.51; Boston Bar, $552.00; Coleman, $138.00; Hope, $733.49; Kitchener, $679.44; Langley, $24.29; Mayton, $1,085.25; Midway, $581.01; Oliver, $3,177.22; Rock Creek, $1.38; Salmo, $206.32; Taber, $383.07.


Douglas King Hazen: What is the total amount,
and how many more items are there?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The total amount is
$413,593.08, including beacon sites, seaplane bases.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special-Deficits-
Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals.
J,06. Amount required to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 1943-44 to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Min-ister of Transport, made from time to time by the national company to the Minister of Finance and to be applied by the national company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) in the operation of the Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals arising in the calendar year 1943, $475,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: It is not my intention to repeat anything I have said earlier in this session on this subject of transportation to Prince Edward Island; but I believe the time is opportune, on behalf of that province, to plan properly a system of transportation in order to carry out the intent of our agreement with the island when it entered confederation. One clause of the agreement with Prince Edward Island called for a proper system of transportation connecting that province with the mainland. Anyone who travels to that island knows that there is not an up-to-date system of transportation to it. The loss of the ferryboat the Charlottetown, was perhaps a

Supply-Transport
blessing in disguise, though inconvenient at present, in that it gives the government an opportunity to provide a more efficient boat. I have heard rumours, and the transport minister said something about a new boat being built, but has anyone heard anything as to the description of the proposed new boat? I hope it will be constructed with speedy loading and unloading facilities like the ferryboats that connect St. Ignace across the strait with Mackinaw, on the south side. These carry an enormous amount of traffic quite speedily, loading and unloading it. I do not think the ferry that was sunk, the Charlottetown, was as satisfactory as it might have been. I was on it several times and, as far as I am concerned, it could have been more satisfactory from the point of view of loading and unloading automobile traffic. I damaged my car on two occasions, because, as everyone knows, it was difficult going round the decks, the passage being so very narrow, and when you got to the end of the boat you were obliged to back around in order to obtain space to park your car. I hope that the new boat which is being built will provide for rapid loading and unloading of motor cars. I make these observations because, in my opinion, there is no part of Canada more beautiful than Prince Edward Island, no other part that tourists would prefer to motor over. There are just as beautiful parts in every province; every part of the dominion has its own peculiar attractions. But in my judgment this is one province that has not had fair play in the matter of transportation service. Not only should there be proper provision as far as the boat is concerned, but there should be a proper wharf on each side of the strait. I cannot for a moment agree with any statement that the approach is satisfactory on either side of the channel for speedy traffic. I can see how they could be greatly improved, and I am convinced that this is what Canada owes to Prince Edward Island if we are to carry out the undertaking given that province when it came into confederation. I will not give details-this was done earlier in the year-with regard to the amount of traffic moving back and forth. Suffice it to say that the time lost to shippers from the island, and the injustice done to growers there in transportation, warrant our making it possible for the people of Prince Edward Island to obtain more speedy transportation to connect them with the mainland. The mainland is their market. I would ask the minister to interest himself, if it is in his department, in the construction of the boat
that is being built, keeping before him particularly the importance of rapid loading and unloading, proper space on the boat for the parking of motor cars, so that it can be done expeditiously, and proper wharfage accommodation on each side of the channel. I repeat, the time has come when we should carry out the undertaking given to Prince Edward Island for a proper system of transportation.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I must again assure my hon. friend that every attention has been given the problem which he has so much at heart. The loss of the Charlottetown was accidental during the war, and everything has been done in an effort to find another boat to replace her. It has not been possible, and now we have decided to build one. Those whom we consider the best marine architects in the country have been retained. They have already toured North America to see what has been done in other parts in the construction of automobile ferryboats, combining a railway car ferry with an automobile boat. That is a difficult feat to accomplish, operating the boat in tidal waters, loading and unloading it. Instructions have been given the architects to go ahead, and they have already begun to design the most modern ferryboat that they can for the service between the mainland and the island. That is the best we can do under the circumstances, and I hope our instructions and expectations will be carried out.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is the boat; what
about the wharves?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The wharves will have to be improved in accordance with the construction of the boat, to enable it to operate, but we cannot do very much in regard to the wharves until we know what the requirements will be in connection with the boat.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Have plans been submitted to the minister showing the proposed design of the boat?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: A preliminary sketch has been prepared, and the final report is being prepared now.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Are the designs available to be seen? I should like to see them; I know something about accommodation required on boats.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Unfortunately I am not in a position to answer in the affirmative. The sketches have been returned to the architects, who will soon have the official final report prepared.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
72537-334J
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[Stage Direction]
National harbours boardboy. To provide for payment to national harbours board of the amount hereinafter set forth, to be applied in payment of the deficits (after payment of interest due the public but exclusive of interest on dominion government advances and depreciation on capital structures) arising in the calendar year 1943, in the operation of the Churchill harbour, $63,400.
Percy Chapman Black: I should like to commend the minister, the department and the national harbours board for the splendid [DOT]work they have been doing since the commencement of the war. With the enormous increase in traffic, the important movements of war materials and so on, there have been some congestion, some delays and many handicaps, but I think the harbours board has done [DOT]excellent work. I have had some protests from the longshoremen of Halifax with respect to what is called the central dispatching agency. Apparently there is some resentment over the [DOT]establishment of this agency and the unnecessary expenditure of money. They say a building was erected at a cost of $58,000 and apparently this agency is manned largely by personnel from outside the city of Halifax. 'They say men are there from Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto and other places; and while *they are members of the longshoremen's association, these people believe that Halifax men should be used for this work. They say this system is a hold-up, and ask, " Why should men from Montreal come here to run our waterfront, when we have men in Halifax and throughout Nova Scotia who are quite capable of doing this work? Everything comes here from Montreal, even the drift ice in the spring." I would ask the minister to see that preference in any work of this kind is given to the men who have their homes in Halifax.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I regret to say that I do not believe this criticism is justified. My hon. friend must not overlook the fact that to-day Halifax is a national port, and if there is surplus man-power available in Halifax we should like very much to have it made available. At the present time we are short of several men to carry on the work required in that port.


Percy Chapman Black: May I ask if the department and the national harbours board are in continual consultation and conference with the heads of the longshoremen's union; if they are working in complete harmony with them and carrying out their wishes as far as possible? Only by this being done can the best results be obtained. A similar

fault has prevailed in many of the war industries; the workmen have not been consulted to the extent they should have been; representatives of the workmen have not been placed on these boards, and so on. I believe that if some other policy had been carried out, we would have achieved far better results in many if not all of our war activities.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Shall the item carry?


Percy Chapman Black: Wait until the minister has answered the question, Mr. Chairman ; I think it was a reasonable one.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I am sorry; I thought the answer had been given.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I think it can be stated safely that the officials of the shipping board, the national harbours board and the British admiralty have kept in contact with the heads of the longshoremen's association, and so far as I am aware the relations between the longshoremen and the administrators of the harbour have been good. There is no dispute between the labour men and the officials; there is a real shortage of labour to meet the present requirements of the harbour of Halifax.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If this question will require any time to answer I shall forego it, but could the minister tell me what harbours come under the national harbours board?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I shall try to name them: Halifax, Saint John, Quebec, Montreal, Chicoutimi, Vancouver, Churchill, Three Rivers, Prescott, Port Colbome.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Charlottetown is not one of them?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Then I shall not ask anything about Charlottetown under this item, but under what later item may I ask a question about Charlottetown harbour?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: There is item 410.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National harbours boardblO. Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1943: Reconstruction and capital expenditures-Montreal, $33,700.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I cannot ask a question about Charlottetown under this item, because the minister has told me that Charlottetown is not under the national harbours board.

Supply-Fisheries


Joseph Enoil Michaud: We have no appropriation for harbours that are not under our jurisdiction. Perhaps the question could be asked under the public works estimates.


Douglas King Hazen: What item are we on?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Item 410.


Douglas King Hazen: Did we pass item 408?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
70. Departmental administration, $146,200.
Thomas Reid: May I draw the minister's attention to the shortage that may arise of flax for the manufacture of nets. My information is that Great Britain controls the supply of flax, and that Canada has sold her supplies to Britain as far ahead as 1945. The manufacturers are warning the industry that we are likely to be short of flax for nets for the spring of 1944. I do not know where they are made in the east, but in British Columbia they were made by the manufacturers and also by hand by the Japanese, though I am informed that nets made by the Japanese were not as good as those made by the manufacturers. Prior to the war we obtained our supplies of flax from Belgium and France, but those supplies have almost run out. I consider it my duty to bring this matter to the attention of the minister and ask him if the Department of Fisheries is aware of what might occur, and what steps are being taken to see to it that Great Britain releases enough of this type of flax for the making of nets for the spring fishing of 1944. Nets last only from one to three years, and the inferior grades do not last more than one year.


Hon. ERNEST BERTRAND (Minister of Fisheries):: We have been aware of this expected shortage, and have made a request to the Briitsh government, as a result of which we expect to have the necessary flax.


Douglas King Hazen: I have a question affecting
the fishermen of the bay of Fundy, who, during part of the year, are engaged in the fishing of salmon. I have recently had communication with some of those fishermen, and I understand that the price of twenty-one cents a pound has been fixed. That is the amount the shipper, or purchaser, must pay the fishermen; it cannot go below that. There is also a provision that a fisherman may send eighty per cent of the amount of salmon he sent last year to the United States; at least that is my understanding of the regulation. That salmon sent to the United States for
sale carries no price ceiling. The other twenty per cent which he must sell in Canada has a price ceiling.


Ernest Bertrand: Before the hon. member proceeds further, may I point out that this matter is under the control of the wartime prices and trade board. My department has nothing to do with the fixing of prices for fish.


Douglas King Hazen: The minister should be interested in it, for the sake of the fishermen.


Ernest Bertrand: I could not
give a proper explanation of what the hon. member is saying. Of course I could give an explanation, but it might not be perfectly accurate, because the matter does not come under my department.	,


Douglas King Hazen: Perhaps at some time- the
minister would permit me to discuss thiB matter with him in his office.


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
73. Development of the deep sea fisheries and the demand for fish, $40,000.
Mr. GILLIS:: I notice there is a decrease'
by 822,760 in this item. I should imagine it would be increased. This does not indicate that the department intends to do anything for the development of the deep sea fisheries. Why has the vote been decreased?


Ernest Bertrand: It is our
intention to do more than ever to increase the sale of fish. But at this time we are. short, by a large amount, of the amount off fish required. If we were to send our lecturers; throughout the country asking people to eatr. more fish, we might not be able to supply them with the quantity required. We have not enough fish.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
7\. Fish culture, $193,800.
Douglas King Hazen: How is oyster culture
developed, and what progress is being made?


Ernest Bertrand: This item is for fish hatcheries, retaining ponds, rearing stations, the improvement of water areas, the destruction of enemies, the stocking of rivers and lakes with fingerlings and. yearlings-	,


Douglas King Hazen: No; I am talking about another item, namely, that of oyster culture.


Ernest Bertrand: We have not yet reached that item. This is a little more
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than it was last year, because we employ quite a number of people, and have to pay war bonuses.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has this item anything to do with fish culture in the Northwest Territories?


Ernest Bertrand: No, only on the Atlantic coast.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does any item in the estimates refer to fishing in the Northwest Territories?


Ernest Bertrand: We have no item dealing with fish culture in that area.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If the minister had read Hansard of a year ago or two years ago, he would have known that wonderful fish are caught in that area, in those great lakes in the Northwest Territories. Large quantities of fish are shipped by plane to Waterways, and from Waterways by mail train to New York and Chicago. In one of the lakes some fish had been found to'be somewhat diseased. Has anything been done to improve their condition? I am told everything is now satisfactory.


Ernest Bertrand: When I told the hon. member we were doing nothing in that area I was not quite correctly informed. Under our direction the mounted police are doing the necessary work. We have no specific amount at our disposal, because the mounted police give their time to it, and they are paid by the Minister of Justice for that work.


John Ritchie MacNicol: For the sake of fish producers, and companies shipping fish from that area, the minister should look into this matter. He will find that the fish from that country are of exceptionally good quality, and that the demand for them is tremendous. It seems strange to me to find that the mounted police have anything to do with looking after the fish in those lakes. I cannot comprehend a situation where the mounted police would have anything to do with the Department of Fisheries, and particularly in that area, out of which they ship eight to ten cars a week to the markets in Chicago and New York. This is splendid business, and if the minister has not yet had time to become familiar with it, then I hope when parliament meets again, and I ask this question about fishing in the Northwest Territories, he will be able to give me a reasonable answer.


Ernest Bertrand: I thank the hon. member for drawing my attention to this matter. It is possible that in the Northwest Territories we have not yet found a need for 
placing fingerlings or other fish culture in those lakes. It is altogether likely that the fish are plentiful, and that there are not many fishermen.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister had better look into the matter between now and next session because I shall be after him.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
75.	Oyster culture, $26,950.
Douglas King Hazen: What progress is being made with oyster culture, and where is the work being done? I should like to have any other information the minister can give. Has this work proven successful so far?


Ernest Bertrand: The work is done mostly in Prince Edward Island and the maritime provinces and is proving successful. It is a slow process, taking five years, and we get results only after a certain time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
76.	Fisheries research board of Canada, $238,000.
Thomas Reid: There is an increase of $2,820 in this vote, and I should like to know what this is for. I wish to know also the number of stations under the board and the number of personnel. This seems to be a lot of money compared with what is provided for the other fisheries commission.


Ernest Bertrand: This is the scientific branch of the fisheries department, and this vote covers the salaries of the scientists located at the biological and experimental stations, as well as the other employees. We have five main and two substations.


Mr. ISNOR:: Where are they located?


Ernest Bertrand: One is at St. Andrews and there is an experimental station at Halifax. There is a substation at Ellerslie on Prince Edward Island, mostly for oyster culture, and there is also one at Grand River on the Gaspe peninsula. There is a biological station at Departure Bay, and there are two substations in British Columbia, one on Queen Charlotte islands and another on Vancouver island. This station does work at different places.


Thomas Reid: What kind of work do they do?


Ernest Bertrand: They tag fish and carry on experiments as to the number of fish that return to the rivers. They see whether eggs are hatching properly and carry on other experimental work to attempt to

Supply-Fisheries
prevent the depletion of the fish. There is at Vancouver an experimental station which used to be located at Prince Rupert.


Douglas King Hazen: I notice that $135,000, or over half the vote, is required for temporary assistance. Is this required every year?


Ernest Bertrand: Some of the employees are not permanent. It has been that way for some time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
80. To provide for transportation, dressing and dyeing, and other expenses incidental to receiving and disposing of fur seal skins receivable by Canada under international arrangement and which formerly accrued to Canada pursuant to pelagic sealing treaty, 1911, now expired, $50,000.
Thomas Reid: What was Canada's share of
the fur catch last year? Have any changes taken place in the working of the treaty since Japan has dropped out, or is a new treaty to be drawn up between the United States and Canada?


Ernest Bertrand: There was no fishing last year. Our share used to be fifteen per cent before war was declared with Japan, but now it is twenty per cent under an arrangement with the United States. We expect to have a fair catch this year.


Thomas Reid: What was our share last year?


Ernest Bertrand: There was
no fishing last year.


Thomas Reid: What was our share the last
year that fishing took place?


Ernest Bertrand: In 1941 our
share was 14,000 skins, representing a revenue of $212,000.


Douglas King Hazen: How much was actually spent last year?


Ernest Bertrand: The amount
spent was $74,477.56.


Douglas King Hazen: If there were no seals caught, why should there be any money spent for transportation, dressing and dyeing?


Ernest Bertrand: It takes
about a year tO' process the pelts, and this amount was to cover the fur of the previous year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
81. To provide for payment of a bounty for the destruction of harbour seals, $15,000.
Percy Chapman Black: How much
was spent last year, and what is the amount of the bounty?


Ernest Bertrand: The bounty
is $2,50 each, and the number of seals was 3,107, the amount spent being $7,767.50.


Percy Chapman Black: How was that amount distributed?


Ernest Bertrand: The distribution was as follows:
Nova Scotia	 $2,957
Prince Edward Island and Magdalen
islands	 1,035
New Brunswick	 855
British Columbia	 2,920


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special
[Stage Direction]
83. To provide for the extension of educational work in cooperative producing and selling among fishermen, $50,000.
Thomas Reid: Was this money spent in the
maritimes and British Columbia?


Ernest Bertrand: Yes.


Angus MacInnis: How was it spent; where was it spent, and what were the educational institutions that carried on this work?


Ernest Bertrand: The amounts are:
St. Francis Xavier university,
Antigonish	 $37,000
Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere, Quebec. 8,000 University of British Columbia... 5,000


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Customs and excise divisions-
183. General administration, $1,033,725.
Thomas Reid: Some time ago on the orders of the day I asked a question of the minister regarding the allotment of beer in the various provinces, but on the orders of the day I could ask only a very brief question. The matter has never been fully explained to the public. The viewpoint in British Columbia is that British Columbia has not been fairly treated; that it has not had the same treatment as the other provinces. I understand that when the percentage reduction was made it was made on the sales or consumption of beer, wines and spirits in the previous year, but that the reduction was made on the amount that had passed through bond. The people of British Columbia have maintained that by some means or another Ontario received advance information and was able to get all its supplies through the excise department before the order came into effect, while in the other provinces those who had bought supplies were not able to get them because, although they had bought them from the breweries, their supplies had not been passed
Supply-Fisheries

by the excise department. In view of the agitation over this question I think a fuller statement should be made by the minister than has been made hitherto, and I would ask him to give an explanation now as to just what the situation is.


Hon. C. W. GIBSON (Minister of National Revenue):: There is really no mystery about the war-time alcoholic beverages order. It was made on the 16th of December and went back to the 31st of October, 1942. It provided for a ten per cent reduction throughout the country as compared with the quantity of beer produced in the year ended October 31, 1942. Every province is treated on exactly the same basis. There is a ten per cent reduction from the amount released to each province in the previous year. In some provinces the sales had been heavy between October 31 and December 16, and that caused a shortage for the rest of the year in those provinces. In some provinces that shortage was more accentuated than in others.


Thomas Reid: The reduction was on the sales?


Colin William George Gibson: The reduction is on the amount of beer sold by the brewers in each province during that period.


Douglas King Hazen: It has come to my attention that in some instances Canadian companies that have received orders from the dominion government to supply and ship overseas goods that were manufactured in the United States have paid duty on these goods when they enter Canada. Goods and merchandise that are manufactured in the United States and are purchased by a Canadian company to be shipped to some other part of the world are not subject to duty when passing through Canada to a port of embarkation. Just why these Canadian companies should have paid duty on these goods manufactured in the United States for shipment overseas is a matter that I would ask to have explained. The duties that have been paid in this way have, I am informed, amounted to thousands of dollars. I am not in a position to state how much has been paid, but I believe that at one port in seven months one company paid duties amounting to about $25,000.
The duty imposed by the government of Canada on goods entering Canada varies in amount, as, of course, the minister knows. In the case of mechanical equipment entering this country from the United States, and that is the kind of goods on which this tax has been paid in some instances at least, the duty is about thirty per cent, to which has to be added the war exchange tax of ten per cent 
and sales tax of eight per cent on the duty paid value of the goods, which makes the tax somewhere about fifty per cent. If duty and taxes are paid on goods of this kind, the cost of the article is increased by at least fifty per cent.
When goods enter this country from the United States a document known as a manifest, which is a notification from the customs officer at the port of entry into Canada to the customs officer at the port of destination in Canada that the goods are on their way, is sent to the customer at the port of destination; and when the goods arrive there, the Canadian company from whom the government is purchasing these goods for shipment overseas, in some instances at least, has gone to the customs house and passed an entry, as it is called; that is to say, paid the duty and taxes on the goods.
The purchaser of the goods is the government-the Department of Munitions and Supply or some other department. The goods come from the United States; they are being sent to Great Britain or some other port of the world outside Canada, and there should be no duty paid on them in Canada because they are only passing through this country. The only reason, it has been suggested to me, why these companies that are selling the goods to the government insist on paying duties and taxes is that their sales are being made on a cost-plus basis, and the payment of these duties and taxes would in consequence increase the amount they would receive from the government.
To give an illustration of the manner in which a transaction of this kind is carried out, a Canadian company-say the General Electric Company of Canada, or the Railway and Power Engineering Corporation-receives an order from the dominion government to supply and ship to some port in Great Britain or North Africa certain goods for which they have the agency and which are manufactured in the United States. The goods are shipped from the United States to Canada in packages marked for the place of destination in Canada, and when leaving the United States are assigned to the military forwarding officer at the port of embarkation, and when they reach the port of embarkation the military forwarding officer sees that they are placed on board ship for overseas. Why under such circumstances should the Canadian company go to the custom house and insist on making an entry and paying duty and taxes on these goods?
The question arises, is a racket being worked in connection with such transactions? I do not know, but I should like the minister to give us some explanation of what is actually taking

Supply-Fisheries
place. If there is no racket, why do these Canadian companies insist upon paying these taxes which they are not in the ordinary course of events required to pay? I ask the minister for an explantion of transactions of this kind. If there has been overcharging, steps should be taken to see that the money is refunded and that the guilty persons are punished. I do not know if there has been overcharging or not; but the transactions, it seems to me, are open to question, and I think some explanation is due this committee.


Colin William George Gibson: That is very much a matter for the Department of Munitions and Supply to reply to. Normally, when goods are brought into this country for export, if duty is paid at the border when they come in, drawback of the duty is made when the goods are exported. Munitions and supply did, I understand, buy goods on a duty-paid price, and when they came in the duty was paid; when they were exported, whatever duty had been paid would be refundable. Munitions and Supply, when they are now buying goods which are to be exported, buy them and no duty is paid at the border when they come in. The question of cost plus, or profit being made on a duty-paid value, is a matter which came to my attention some time ago and I took it up with the Minister of Munitions and Supply. Of course it is a matter depending on the terms of the contract which the Department of Munitions and Supply make. All we do is collect the duty on the goods which are dutiable, but refund the duty when they are exported.


Douglas King Hazen: In this case that has been referred to, as I understand it these people have gone to the customs house and insisted on paying these duties and these taxes. I should like to know why they did that. Why were they so anxious to pay these duties?


Colin William George Gibson: Because their contract with the Department of Munitions and Supply called for payment of duty when the goods came in. Munitions and Supply were buying the goods at a duty-paid price and the sellers were to be paid the value of the goods with the duty paid.


Douglas King Hazen: I cannot quite understand that either, because there was no duty on them. The goods were clearly marked to be shipped to Great Britain or North Africa or some other place; they were just passing through this country, so that there was no duty on those goods.


Colin William George Gibson: Yes, there was. There is a duty on goods coming into this country and
the drawback has to be claimed when goods are exported. Many goods come into this country which we do not know for certain will be exported, and consequently we collect the duty when they come in.


Douglas King Hazen: If they are directed to the officer at the port of embarkation, they would come in and pass right through this country to the port, say Saint John, addressed to the officer in charge of embarkation there and marked for shipment overseas. The manifests, as I understand it, must show-at least, I think they would show-the destination of these goods.


Colin William George Gibson: As I said before, that system has been changed. If these goods are being shipped overseas and are being sent to a border point, they come in without duty because they are going straight through.


Douglas King Hazen: When these refunds were made, to whom were they, made?


Colin William George Gibson: They were made to the person paying the duty, but turned over to the Department of Munitions and Supply.


Douglas King Hazen: I think I asked the minister in 1942 the total amount of refunds made under such circumstances, and in 1943, up to the end of last month, the total amount.


Colin William George Gibson: We would not keep records of that. We keep records, but not of the circumstances of all the refunds made. It would be impossible to give an answer to a question like that.


George Taylor Fulford: Has the minister any information whether the breweries are in a position to supply the public with any more beer than they are supplying at the present moment?


Colin William George Gibson: A little while ago we did make some arrangements. There was a shortage in the country owing to the oversold condition that existed between October and December when wartime alcoholic beverages came into operation, and arrangements were made to provide the camps and establishments ot all our armed forces with a quota of beer which amounted, I believe, for the remainder of the year to something like two and a half million gallons.


Thomas Reid: Equally between all the
provinces?


Colin William George Gibson: At the rate of a gallon per man per month, wherever he happened to be stationed. We found that the brewers had a great deal of difficulty in providing that. Some of them could not increase their production,
Supply-Fisheries

and as a matter of fact I have recently been notified that some of the brewers have not been able to fill the quota they already have, on account of the shortage of man-power.


Douglas King Hazen: Referring again to the matter I was discussing with the minister, do I understand the minister to say that he cannot tell me the amount of goods that were transmitted to England from the United States for which entry was made and duty paid at the port of Saint John?


Colin William George Gibson: We could find it out, but the hon. member asked under the circumstances that they were coming through direct, shipped direct to Saint John for reshipment to Great Britain. I could not possibly give him those figures now. With a great deal of research we could find out what those figures were.


Douglas King Hazen: Would it take a great deal of research? By a strange coincidence I happen to have a copy of 'a letter which was written on March 9, 1943. I am going to read it in view of what the minister has said. It came to my hands in a rather strange way.
A. L. Hoyt, Esq.,
Collector of Customs and Excise,
Saint John, N.B.
Dear Sir,
Attached please find further report of goods in transit to England from the U.S.A., for which entry has been made and duty and taxes paid at this port.
This report is in accordance with the instructions of the assistant commissioner of customs that all such transactions be reported to him personally. The relative invoice is attached to the report.
Yours truly,
J. L. MacCoubrey,
Computing Clerk.
I would think, in view of that letter, that the figures must be readily available, and I would ask the minister to furnish me with them.


Colin William George Gibson: These are figures which undoubtedly can be procured. But the hon. member is referring to one report.


Douglas King Hazen: A further report is referred to.


Colin William George Gibson: I know. But for every shipment that goes through a report would go in. These would all have to be collected and tabulated.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Crerar the house adjourned at 12.05 a.m.

Friday, July 23, 1943