BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, on Monday I intimated that if the house would give its unanimous consent the government would be prepared to-day to have a motion presented which would enable us to proceed to the orders respecting questions and notices of motions for the production of papers before continuing the debate on the address. I therefore move:
That consideration of the special order relative to the debate on the address to His Excellency be suspended until the house has proceeded to the orders respecting questions and notices of motions for the production of papers standing on the order paper.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Hon. R. B. HANSON (Leader of the Opposition):: I should like to ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) if he will bring down, as soon as this debate is over, the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1942. I need scarcely say that it would be a great convenience to members if they could have them before the Christmas holidays.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Perhaps I had better
answer that question. The house will have to wait until we have concluded the debate on the address to see whether or not the estimates can be brought down before we adjourn. I am not in a position to give an answer to my hon. friend at the moment, but the matter is receiving consideration.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I ask the Prime Minister if at a later date, possibly not to-day, he will be good enough to give to the house and the country a statement with respect to the new

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war board which has been or is about to be created, headed by Mr. MacMillan, to which I made reference last week.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am not sure that the question my hon. friend has asked does not refer to a matter with which the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) will deal to-day.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What action does the government propose to take regarding the huge loss of life on Canada's highways including those injured and the economic loss to Canada?
2.	Are any amendments proposed to statute law this session to curb " hit and run " drivers, and other provisions?


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: These
questions involve a matter of policy as to which it is not usual to make a statement in reply.


COMMUNITY PASTURES IN PRAIRIE PROVINCES
Mr. COLD WELL:: 1.	How many community pastures have been decided upon in the prairie provinces?
2.	How many are in active operation?
3.	How many acres do they comprise?
4.	How many acres have been re-seeded to crested wheat grass?
5.	How many acres remain to be re-seeded?
6.	How many cattle were pastured?
7.	What was the total cost of fencing such pastures?
8.	How many men are employed in the operation of the said pastures?
9.	What is their average salary?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	64. 2.	55. 3.	1,021,180 acres. 4.	57,330 acres.			
5. Approximately 50,000 acres.			
6.	Horses	Cattle Sheep	1938-39 	1,935	1,281	741939-40	3,710	7,712	5001940-41 (estimated)	5,000	15,000	7007.	$128,137.99 (to March 31, 1940).8.	33.9.	$57.43 per month.


KURT AND ERICH GRUNEBAUM
Mr. REID:: 1.	Were one Kurt Grunebaum and his brother Erich Grunebaum allowed to enter Canada some time late in 1939?
2.	Were they granted an entry allowing them to settle in Canada indefinitely?
3.	Were they allowed into Canada with the view of their going into business or with the view of obtaining a position or positions comparable to their previous training or experience?
4.	What country were they nationals of, previous to their entry?
5.	Did any person or persons act as sponsors for them, and, if so, who were they?
6.	Before being allowed legal entry, were the Canadian authorities aware of their connections in Germany with any financial institutions in that country?
7.	What was the exact date of their arrival to Canada?
8.	Was one Erich Grunebaum employed by the foreign exchange control board? If so, what was the exact date of his employment, and the name of the person or persons recommending him for such employment?
9.	What were his qualifications for such employment?
10.	During the time he was with the foreign exchange board, were the duties performed by him of such a character as could not have been performed or undertaken by some Canadian or British citizen?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Kurt Grunebaum was allowed temporary entry to Canada in May, 1939, on a business visit and was granted permanent admission in August, 1939. Erich Grunebaum was granted entry to Canada in February, 1940, for permanent residence.
2.	Yes.
3.	They were granted admission for the purpose of going into business on their own account and deposited in Canada capital to the extent of $75,000 each.
4.	They were nationals of Germany of Jewish race and came to Canada from England where they were both resident before migration.
5.	No.
6.	Yes.
7.	Answered by No. 1.
8.	Erich Grunebaum has not been employed by the foreign exchange control board at any time but Kurt Grunebaum, his brother, was on the staff of the board serving in a routine capacity from October 5, 1939, to May 22, 1940. He had been added to the staff of the board only after a searching examination of his antecedents and credentials which had revealed that he had left Germany because of the anti-Semitic measures of the German government. He applied directly to the board and offered his services without salary in gratitude to and appreciation of the country which had offered him a home.
9.	In his capacity as a partner in a well-known banking house, Simon Ilirschland, Essen, Germany, Kurt Grunebaum had
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acquired a knowledge o{ foreign banking and foreign exchange control which was of service to the board while the Canadian staff was being organized. His services to the board were quite satisfactory during the short period sf his employment. He has not been associated with the board in any way since leaving the board on May 22, 1940.
10.	No, but in the early period of the board's organization it was of definite advantage to have the assistance of one who had had actual experience of the operations of foreign exchange control.


CERTIFICATES OF NATURAXIZATION
Mr. REID:: 1.	What was the number of certificates of naturalization issued from September 1, 1939, to September 30, 1940, and compared with that of the previous year?
2.	Of the number of naturalization certificates granted, how many of these were issued to former citizens of Germany, Italy, Russia and Japan, between September 1, 1939, and September 30,	1940, giving the respective
numbers during each month?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 
IMMIGRATION OF BRITISH CHILDREN
Mr. GRAYDON:: How many British children have immigrated from Great Britain to Canada since war was declared, (a) under governmental evacuation arrangements: (b) under private arrangements?


Mr. CRERAR:: (a)	1,532.
(b)	4,326.


IMPORTATIONS OF FRESH FRUITS AND VEGETABLES FROM UNITED STATES
Gordon Graydon: What was the quantity and value of fresh fruits and vegetables of all kinds imported from the United States into Canada during each month from January 1 to November 1, 1940?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: Imports from the United States of fresh fruits and vegetables during the months from January to September, 1940.
	Total fresh	Total fresh
Month	fruits	vegetablesJanuary.. .	. .. $ 862,283	$ 423,255February,. .	. .. 1,122,634	511,453March	.. 1,094,755	642,104April	. .. 1,566,795	886,192May	. .. 1,556,706	1,100,541June	. .. 1,996,601	966,130July	. .. 1,579,136	479,699August.. ..	.. 1,716,865	44,184September...	.. 966,358	59,320Imports for	the month of	October, 1940,
are not available.


HOG CHOLERA OUTBREAKS
Mr. GRAYDON:: 1.	How many hogs died from hog cholera in Canada in each month of the year 1940?
2.	How many hogs died from the said disease during the said period in the province of Ontario?
3.	Have any areas in Canada been quarantined because of cholera outbreaks? If so, how many areas are now under quarantine?
4.	What is the total amount of compensation paid by the government to hog owners during the year 1940?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1 and 2. Figures are not available regarding hogs that died from hog cholera. The following statement shows the number of hogs ordered to be slaughtered in controlling this disease.
	(1)	(2)
	Dominion	Province
	of Canada	of Ontario
January, 1940..	... 354	81February	... 623	449March	. .. 3,059	2,209April	.. .. 724	721May	.. .. 1,897	929(1)	(2)Dominion	Provinceof Canada	of CanadaJune	
653	552July	
70	70August.. ..	
3,310	3,310September..	
6,051	5,466October (as	recorded	to date)..	
1,046	1,0063.	Yes, one area comprising the counties of Essex and Kent, Ontario.4.	Compensation awarded (as recorded to date), $118,318.


MAJOR-GENERAL L. R. LAFLECHE
[Stage Direction]
Mr. McGregor :
1.	Is Major-General L. R. LaFleche in the employ of the dominion government?
2.	If so, in what capacity, and what are his duties?
3.	What is the amount of his salary and
allowances?
4.	Is he in receipt of any military or other pension?
5.	If so, what is the amount thereof?
6.	Is he in receipt of superannuation or other retirement allowances?
7.	If so, what is the amount thereof?
Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Associate deputy minister; duties of a deputy minister.
3.	$9,000, salary.
4.	Yes; war disability pension.
5.	$1,260; dependants' allowances, $744.
6.	No.
7.	See answer to No. 6.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT-STATISTICS
Mr. ESLING:: What is the estimated aggregate revenue from employers and the estimated aggregate revenue from employees annually under the operation of the Unemployment Insurance Act?


Mr. McLARTY:: On page 6 of the actuarial report relating to the Unemployment Insurance Act, the following statement is made:
"On the basis of a contributory population in 1941 of 2,100,000, and of an average number of weeks of employment per person equal to that assumed for the purposes of estimating contributions, the total contributions for the year would be approximately $58,500,000 being approximately $9,700,000 by the government and approximately $24,400,000 each by employers and employed persons. The tentative nature of these estimates will, be apparent; they relate to an average year only, and few years are average in the matter of employment and unemployment."
With the increase in the number of persons employed in industry and the annual amount
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of employment obtained for each of those persons, it is probable that these estimates may have to be increased during the early operation of the act.


Mr. JACKMAN:: 1.	How large a personnel is now contemplated under the Unemployment Insurance Act?
2.	How many of these will be taken over from existing provincial employment agencies?
3.	How many of these will be taken over from other dominion government departments whose ordinary peace time activities have been curtailed or are temporarily in abeyance?
4.	How many of this personnel will be located at the place of the head administrative office?
5.	At what other centres will the remainder of the personnel be located, and approximately how many at each?
6.	Initially, at what points will labour exchanges be established, and at what points will training centres be established?


Mr. McLARTY:: 1.	On page 5 of the evidence before the special committee on the unemployment insurance bill, it was stated: "It is impossible to make an exact estimate of the staff, but our feeling has been that it would not run much more than three thousand, even with the increased coverage that I have spoken of from one million six hundred thousand to two million one hundred thousand." In view of the increase in the number of persons likely to come under the act, there might have to be some adjustment in this figure.
2.	This matter is at present being negotiated with the provinces.
3.	The civil service commission is at present advertising some of the staff positions but no appointments have yet been made.
4.	Unable to determine at present.
5.	On page 5 of the evidence before the special committee on the unemployment insurance bill, the following statement is made: "We have estimated that there will be some eighty-three principal offices scattered throughout the country. In some of the larger cities more than one will be in the same centre. But we have estimated some eighty-three principal local offices and some fifteen hundred sub offices for the handling of the employment service and of the unemployment insurance aspects of the legislation together, because these matters will be taken care of in the same offices." It is anticipated that industrial areas with over 10,000 population will have a full-time office.
6.	Covered by answer to previous question. No training centres will be operated by the unemployment insurance commission itself, but they will make use of existing facilities.


Mr. BENCE:: 1.	How many appointments have been made to positions under the Unemployment Insurance Act?
2.	What are the names of such appointees?
. 3. What are the salaries and allowances of each such appointee?


Mr. McLARTY:: 1.	Three. No other permanent appointments have been made. In order to expedite the work the services of certain employees of the labour department have been utilized.
2.	Dr. Joseph Sirois, chairman; Allan M. Mitchell, commissioner; R. J. Tallon, commissioner.
3.	Salaries: Dr. Sirois, $12,000 per annum; Mr. Tallon, $8,000 per annum; Mr. Mitchell, $8,000 per annum; together with reasonable travelling, expenses.



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY-CONTRACTS

['Answered.']
Mr. HOWE:: I desire to call the attention of the house to section 3 of this question. I have the answer in these closely typed pages under that number. In order to put that in a form to give my hon. friend, each page must be typed and decoded. These are in a code which we use for departmental records, and it will take weeks of stenographic work to prepare this information; I am sure that after my hon. friend has it he will have no information which is not contained in the monthly reports of contracts.
As far as sections 1 and 2 of this question are concerned, I hope to give the information when I speak later on; and in view of the impossibility of answering section 3, I would ask that the question be dropped.
Question dropped.

Questions



Mr. ROSS (Souris):: Will the government grant free transportation to all troops other than commissioned *officers of the army, air force and navy entitled to Christmas leave or furlough in Canada?


Mr. POWER:: The Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) went into this question and answered it fully in the course of his address made on November 12 last.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Answered.



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY-FERTILIZER FOR AIRPORTS


Mr. SHAW:: Will the government consider, at this session of parliament, the setting up of a select committee of the house to study and report upon general problems of reconstruction and reestablishment which may arise at the termination of the present war?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The government has been considering the matter to which reference is made.


FUR SEAL CONVENTION, 1911
Mr. REID:: 1.	Has the Canadian government received any information or notitieation from either Great Britain or Japan, of Japan's intention to terminate that country's .agreement to the fur seal treaty affecting fur seals in the north Pacific waters?
2. If so, when would any such proposed termination take effect, and further, what reasons are being given by Japan for her proposed withdrawal from the treaty?
3.	When was the treaty first signed or effected, and what countries are signatories to the treaty?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	The Canadian government received information, both from the charge d'affaires of the
3.	How much fertilizer was purchased for each airport?
4.	What was the contract price per ton?
5.	How many firms, or individuals, tendered for these contracts?
6.	What was the amount of the tender in each case?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	The Department of Transport purchased fertilizer for use on the airports at Jarvis, Hagersville, Kohler and Dunnville, Ontario.
2.	Orders for such fertilizer were issued as follows: Jarvis, Canadian Industries, Limited, Toronto; Hagersville, Canadian Industries, Limited, Toronto; Kohler, Canadian Industries, Limited, Toronto; Dunnville, Canada Packers, Limited, Toronto.
3.	Jarvis, tons; Hagersville, 42 tons; Kohler, 46 tons; Dunnville, 42 tons.
4.	$26.28.
5.	Six.
Jarvis	Hagersville	Kohler	Dunnville$197.10	$1,103.76	S1,20S.8S	$1,103.76197.10	1,103.76	1,208.88	1,103.76197.10	1,103.76	1,208.88	1,103.76197.10	1,103.76	1,208.88	1,103.76216.75	1.125.60	1.242.00	1,134.00206.25	1,155.00	1,265.00	1,155.00
Canadian legation at Tokyo and from the government of the United Kingdom, through the High Commissioner for Canada, that the Japanese government were considering the termination of the fur seal convention, 1911.
2.	Formal announcement of abrogation of this convention was made by the Japanese foreign office on the 23rd October, 1940, the abrogation to be effective on the 23rd October, 1941. The reason given for Japanese withdrawal from the convention was the wish to prevent further inroads made on the fishing industry by the rapidly increasing seal herds.
3.	The convention for the preservation and protection of the fur seals in the north Pacific ocean was signed at Washington, D.C., on -the 7th of July, 1911. Ratifications were deposited at Washington on the 12th December, 1911. The convention was signed on behalf of His Majesty the King and also on behalf of the United States, Russia and Japan.


GERMAN PRISONERS OF WAR
Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	Are the camps for the German prisoners of war on crown or private lands?
2.	What are the total yearly rentals being paid for lands and buildings used for prisoners of war ?
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3.	How much per day is spent for food for German prisoners in Canada?
4.	How much per annum, per person, is proposed to be spent for shoes and clothing for the German prisoners?
5.	Are medical and dental services and tobacco supplied free for German prisoners in Canada?
6.	Is beer supplied free to German officers in prison camps?
7.	How much per day are prisoners of war paid for working?
Mr, CASGRAIN:
1.	Some camps are on private lands and other camps are on crown lands. The majority of the camps are on crown lands.
2.	$35,278, all recoverable from the government of the United Kingdom.
3.	$2,517, of which the sum of $2,114 is recoverable from the government of the United Kingdom.
4.	$42.33, the government of the United Kingdom undertaking to pay in the case of prisoners of war and civilian internees transferred from Great Britain.
5.	In accordance with the terms of the inter-natibnal convention relative to the treatment of prisoners of war, medical and dental services provided for combatant prisoners of war (officers and other ranks) are the same as those provided for Canadian active service force. Civilian internees are given emergency treatment and they pay for any special treatment. Under article 11 of the convention the use of tobacco shall be authorized and under article 12 canteens shall be installed. Tobacco is not supplied free at the expense of the government of Canada.
6.	No.
7.	Prisoners of war and civilian internees receive no pay for work in connection with the administration, internal arrangement and maintenance of interment camps. When work other than the above is performed, payment is at the rate of twenty cents per day.


Mr. ESLING:: 1.	Is an allowance provided far German prisoners of war in Canadian internment camps?
2.	If so, how much do officers receive, and how much do private soldiers and civilians receive ?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	No allowance is provided by Canada for German prisoners of war in Canadian internment camps except that under arrangement with the United Kingdom government disbursements of pay are made to combatant officer prisoners of war who were sent from the United Kingdom to Canada for internment. The rates of pay to combatant officer prisoners of war were fixed in accordance with article 23 of the international convention relative to the
[Mr. Nicholson.!
treatment of prisoners of war by agreement between the government of the United Kingdom and the German government. Any disbursements in Canada in this connection are made 'by the government of Canada at the request of the government of the United Kingdom and, under the agreement, are recoverable by Canada from the government of the United Kingdom which, in turn, it is assumed, is reimbursed by the German government in accordance with the terms of article 23 of the international convention.
2.	The rates of pay for officers were determined as set out in 1, by agreement between the government of the United Kingdom and the German government and all the terms of this agreement are not available to the government of Canada.
Combatant prisoners of war other than those of officer rank and civilians who may be interned in Canada receive no pay or allowances unless work other than camp fatigues is performed in accordance with the terms of the international convention.


BOARD OF TRANSPORT COMMISSIONERS
Mr. REID:: 1.	Who are the members of the board of transport commissioners?
2.	What were the dates of their appointments ?
3.	What remuneration does each receive?
4.	What term of years ivas each appointed for, and when does the term of each expire?
5.	What was the occupation or business apart from any public office previously held by the various comniissioners before appointment?
6.	What is the total cost of expenditure annually of the board of transport commissioners?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	Chief Commissioner, Colonel J. A. Cross, D.S.O., K.C.; Assistant Chief Commissioner, Hugh Wardrope, Esq.; Deputy Chief Commissioner, F. N. Garceau, K.C.; Commissioners, J. A. Stoneman, G. A. Stone and Lieut.-Colonel
F.	M. MacPherson.
2.	Colonel J. A. Cross, D.S.O., K.C., order in council February 20, 1940, sworn in April 1, 1940.
Hugh Wardrope, Esq., appointed November 8, 1938.
F.	N. Garceau, Esq., K.C., appointed September 16, 1933.
J. A. Stoneman, Esq., appointed March 12, 1929, and reappointed March 12, 1939.
G.	A. Stone, Esq., appointed December 16, 1931.
Lieut.-Colonel F. M. MacPherson, appointed September 21, 1939.
3.	Chief Commissioner, S12.500; Assistant Chief Commissioner, $9,000; Deputy Chief Commissioner and other commissioners, $8,000.

Questions
4.	Under the Railway Act appointments are for a term of 10 years, unless the appointee reaches the age of 75 years in the interim.
5.	Colonel J. A. Cross, D.S.O., K.C., barrister; Hugh Wardrope, Esq., barrister; F. N. Garceau, Esq., K.C., advocate; J. A. Stone-man, Esq., farmer and rancher; G. A. Stone, Esq., locomotive engineer; Lieut.-Colonel F. M. MacPherson, automobile business and undertaker.
6.	Board, staff, etc., all inclusive, $316,946.58 for the fiscal year 1939-40.


GORTON PEW FISH COMPANY
Mr. ROY:: 1.	Has the government given any grants or subsidies to the Gorton Pew Fish Company of Halifax, since 1930?
2.	If so, for what different items were these grants or subsidies paid?
3.	What were the total amounts?
4.	What sums were granted to this company for its works at Caraquet?


Mr. MICHAUD:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Answered by No. 1.
4.	None; but approval was given to diversion of an amount of $75,000-from the allotment of $100,000-to New Brunswick out of the appropriation for 1939-40 "to enable aiding fishermen, etc.," so that a fish cold storage plant at Caraquet, N.B., financed jointly by the province of New Brunswick and the Gorton Pew (New Brunswick) Ltd., might be subsidized.


CANADIAN TRAVEL BUREAU
Mr. ISNOR:: 1.	What was the total appropriation and expenditure of the Canadian travel bureau for
the fiscal year 1939-40?
2.	How much was expended in (a) foreign magazine advertising; (b) foreign newspaper advertising?
3.	What was the total expenditure in foreign advertising?
4.	What amount of the said appropriation
was expended in (a) salaries; (b) advertising counsel; (c) general office expenses; (d) travel expenses and entertainment; (e) work and supplies from printing bureau:	(f) booklets
and other supplies from Canadian firms; (g) other items to make up the total?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	Appropriation, $315,000; expenditure, $311,595.07.
2.	(a) $98,459.07; (b) $63,927.55.
3.	$162,386.62.
4.	(a) $37,570.60; (b) nil; (c) $4,447.76; (d) S2.376.72; (e) $23,634.20; (f) $40,147.57; (g) payments to celebrations and festivals in aid of the promotion of tourist travel to Canada, $25,500.
MALCOLM MaCLEAN


Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	What are the duties of Malcolm MacLean, ex-member of parliament?
2.	Did he serve with the air force during the great war?
3.	What was his rank during the great war?
4.	In what theatre of war did he serve?
5.	How much has he been paid in salary and for expenses since his present appointment?


Mr. POWER:: 1.	As special assistant to the Minister of National Defence for Air, he performs such duties as may be assigned to him but not of an administrative character.
2.	No.
3.	Corporal.
4.	Canadian expeditionary force (Siberia).
5.	Salary, $1,566.65: expenses, $109.90.


RADIUM SUPPLIES
Mr. WINKLER:: 1.	Have mining and refining operations of radium in Canada been suspended and the staffs discharged ?
2.	Is the government aware of any agreement between the Belgian and Canadian radium companies whereby Belgian (Congo) ore will be used in the interim?
3.	Have we adequate supplies of radium in Canada, should the Belgian (Congo) supply be cut off by war operations?


Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	The government is informed that operations at the mine at Port Radium, N.W.T., have been temporarily suspended as sufficient ore has been mined to meet refinery requirements for at least two years. The company reports that owing to curtailment of export markets due to the war, production for the time being will only be conducted on a scale sufficient to take care of current orders.
2.	No.
3.	Yes.


CANADIAN APPLE CROP
Mr. ROY:: 1.	Has the Department of Agriculture had a surplus of apples this year?
2. If so, has the government decided to distribute gratuitously a portion of this surplus crop to different institutions in the province of Quebec, as well as to the unemployed of Gaspe county and to the sufferers from lack of markets of the fishing industry of the Magdalen islands?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	At this date no surplus of the 1940 Canadian apple crop is apparent.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
Questions


SALES OF WAR SAVINGS STAMPS AND CERTIFICATES
Mr. GRAYDON:: 1.	What is the total amount invested to date by the Canadian people in war savings stamps and certificates?
2.	What amount have the citizens of each province of the dominion so invested?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	As at October 31, 1940, the amount
invested in war savings certificates by the Canadian people was 820,873,344 in payment of certificates with a maturity value of $26,091,680; as of the same date sales of war savings stamps amounted to 83,036,981.25, of which $1,612,920 had been turned in in payment of war savings certificates and are therefore included in the amount of certificates sold shown above. Thus the net total amount invested in war savings certificates (at purchase price) and war savings stamps as at October 31,	1940, was $22,297,405.25, or
$27,515,741.25 taking the war savings certificates at their maturity value.
2.	Information is not available as to the distribution by provinces of sales of war savings stamps. As at October 31, 1940,
sales of war savings	certificates	by provinceswere as follows:	Purchase	MaturityProvince	price	valuePrince Edward Island	$ 105,776	$ 132,220Nova Scotia. ..	1,050,464	1,313,0S0New Brunswick.	660,480	825,600Quebec	3,667,028	4,583,785Ontario	8,622,172	10,777,715Manitoba	1,614,796	2,018,495Saskatchewan. .	1,352,724	1,690,905Alberta	1,413,108	1,766,385British Columbia	2,360,628	2,950,785Canada (including	lukon)	$20,873,344	$26,091,680
^CIVILIAN FLYING SCHOOLS


Mr. PERLEY:: 1.	What are the names of all the civilian flying schools carrying on training for the Department of National Defence for Air?
2.	What is the reason for training being carried on under these auspices rather than under the direct control of the department?
3.	What is the nature of the arrangement entered into between the Department of National Defence for Air and such civilian flying schools?
4.	Who are the officers and directors of each such flying school?
5.	How many of these flying schools have
been established or set up since the outbreak of war ?	'


Charles Gavan Power: With respect to this question, I dealt very fully with the whole question of civilian flying schools the day before yesterday when I addressed the house. In so far as documents are required to be produced, I am producing a copy of the contract, in reply to motion for production of papers made by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis). It is being produced this afternoon.


PERCENTAGE COST OF TAX COLLECTIONS
Mr. CARDIFF:: What was the percentage relationship of the cost of collection to the amount collected in the fiscal years ending March 31, 1935, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, and 1940, of each of the following taxes: income tax, customs duties, excise duties, excise taxes excluding sales tax, and sales tax?


Mr. GIBSON:: Percentage Cost of Collection
	Income	*Customs and
	Tax	Excise
Fiscal Year	per cent	per cent1934-35	.... 2-95	2-97193.5-36	.... 2-56	3-201936-37	.... 2-08	2-711937-38	.... 1-87	2-481938-39	.... 1-70	2-761939-40	.. .. 1-85	2-48* Information	as to percentage	cost of
collecting duties and taxes separately not available, it being impossible to segregate this expenditure under separate items.
AUDITOR general's REPORT-GRANTS FOR MAINTENANCE OF LEPERS


Mr. DESMOND:: What action is proposed by the government with respect to the suggestion of the auditor general in his report for the year ending March 31, 1940, at page 314, that grants for the purpose of maintenance of lepers should fluctuate in accordance with the number of patients undergoing treatment?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: No action is proposed unless the number of patients should increase to a considerable extent, it being deemed that the present amount is the minimum required to ensure that adequate treatment facilities are available.
AUDITOR general's REPORT-UNCOLLECTABLE ACCOUNTS RECEIVABLE


Gordon Graydon: What action is proposed by the government with respect to the large number of uncollectable accounts receivable, disclosed by the auditor general's report for the year ended March 31, 1940, at page 561?

Questions


Mr. ILSLEY:: Although it is not usual for the government to make a statement on matters of policy in giving replies to questions, in the present instance assurance is given that the matter concerned is receiving consideration by the Minister of Finance and treasury board.


* AUDITOR GENERAL'S REPORT-TRANSPORTATION EXPENSES OF JUDGES
Mr. BENCE:: Has any consideration been given by the government to the question of establishing a uniform basis for transportation expenses for judges of the superior courts of the provinces, in accordance with the suggestion made by the auditor general in his report for the year ending March 31, 1940, at page 146?


Ernest Lapointe: The report of the auditor general was brought down only a few days ago, and I have just read the item mentioned in this question. I do not see in the note of the report that his suggestion involves any change in the present practice. I will, however, consider the matter.
AUDITOR general's REPORT-EXTRA EXPENDITURE ' AT THOUSAND ISLANDS BRIDGE


Mr. BOUCHER:: What action is proposed by the government to meet the objection taken by the auditor general in his report for the year ending March 31, 1940, at page 288, to a payment of $4,995 for the excavation of rock at the customs house site at the Thousand Islands bridge?


Mr. GIBSON:: 1.	No further action is deemed necessary.
2.	The Thousand Islands bridge authority has constructed entirely at their own expense all customs and immigration buildings required by charter or order in council at the Canadian terminal, including a warehouse with a special division for the handling of bus passengers.
3.	The Department of National Revenue has not contributed in any way whatever to the cost of these structures, but acting jointly with the provincial highway authorities, we have improved the northern entrance to the customs detention yard.
4.	This improvement was carried out for the following reasons:
(a)	Elimination of existing danger of a "blind curve" at the entrance to the customs detention yard; including safety factor for customs officers examining cars in customs detention yard;
(b)	Improved accessibility to existing and proposed customs facilities;
(c)	Improved visibility essential to control of traffic by customs officers.
5.	The rock removed under contract was not located on premises of the Thousand Islands bridge authority, but on the public highway, and this land stands in the name of His Majesty the King, in the right of the province of Ontario.
6.	The work was completed on a fifty-fifty basis and one-half of the total expenditure was repaid by the provincial department of highways, leaving the federal expenditure in the net amount of $2,497.50.


AUDITOR GENERAL'S REPORT-CHANGE IN FORM
Mr. SENN:: What are the reasons for the change in form of the auditor general's report?


James Lorimer Ilsley: To harmonize the style of
the report with the form in which estimates are currently presented to the House of Commons; to provide a reader in either English or French with a complete text in his language of preference; to reduce the general overhead cost of preparation, and to permit more time being devoted to the actual audit of accounts.
AUDITOR general's REPORT-INDIAN TRUST FUNDS INTEREST RATE


Mr. LOCKHART:: Has any consideration been given by the government to a reduction in the rate of interest on Indian trust funds, in accordance with the suggestion contained in the auditor general's report for the year ending March 31, 1940, at page 97?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Although it is not usual
for the government to make a statement on matters of policy in giving replies to questions, in the present instance assurance is given that the matter concerned is receiving consideration by the Minister of Finance and treasury board.


POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT-DISBURSEMENTS FROM REVENUE COLLECTIONS
Mr. TUSTIN:: 1.	What sums of money have been disbursed by the Post Office Department in each fiscal year since 1935, directly from postal revenue collections ?
2.	Have any of these sums ever been appropriated by parliament?
3.	What are the reasons for this practice of disbursement directly from revenue account?


Mr. MULOCK:: 1.	Amounts disbursed by Post Office Department from postal revenue for each of the last fiscal years since 1935 are as follows: 1935-36-$6.695,611.30;	1936-37-$6,907,014.35;
1937-3S-$7,452,188.14;	193S-39-$7,607,958.64;
Questions

1939-40-$7,479,264.69. This information is given annually in the Postmaster General's report. .
2.	No.
3.	These payments consist mainly of commissions earned by postmasters at rural post offices on their stamp sales, etc. As the commissions fluctuate at each individual point no accurate estimate can be given in advance as to the amount required. This has been the practice under all administrations since 1868, and the department is strongly of the opinion that it is the least expensive and most effective method of making payment of these amounts.


BELLEVILLE, ONT., R.R. 8 MAIL DELIVERY
Mr. STOKES:: 1.	Were tenders called for rural route No. 8 mail delivery at Belleville, Ontario?
2.	If so, who was the successful tenderer, and what was the amount of such tender?
3.	Was this the lowest tender?
4.	Did any returned soldier tender on this route?
5.	If so, what was his tender?


Mr. MULOCK:: 1.	Yes. In May, 1938, and in October, 1938.
2.	Blake D. Harns. $275 per annum.
3.	No. The tenders submitted in May, 1938, were not acted upon following representations that adequate publicity had not been given to notices inviting tenders.
In October, 1938, the following tenders were submitted: George E. Ketcheson S264 per annum; Blake D. Harns S275 per annum.
The tender of Mr. Ketcheson was not considered, he being a non-resident.
4.	No information.
5.	See answer to No. 4.


DAYLIGHT SAVING TIME
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Has the government considered making daylight saving national for the duration of the war?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This question deals with a matter of government policy which will be made knowm in due course.


Georges Parent: Ansivered.


Mr. MacKINNON (Kootenay East):: 1.	On what date did the power controller order the retention of daylight saving time?
2.	What is the estimated saving of electrical power "which will result from such order?
3.	Has any consideration been given to the representations of certain municipalities to the effect that this order will cause an increase rather than a reduction in the use of electrical energy in their municipality?
4.	If so, what conclusions have been reached?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	September 20, 1940, by P.C. 4994.
2.	Estimated saving on peak load of 189,000

3.	No representations received by minister.
4.	Answered by 3.


OTTAWA TEMPORARY GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS
Mr. BOUCHER:: 1.	What was the cost of erecting each of the temporary buildings on Wellington street in the city of Ottawa?
2.	What is the amount of floor space in each such building?
3.	What is the estimated cost of construction of the third temporary building on Wellington street?
4.	What amount of floor space is to be provided in such building?
5.	What is the estimated cost of construction of the temporary' building on Green island in the city of Ottawa?
6.	What amount of floor space is to be provided in such building?
7.	Who was or is the contractor for each building?
8.	Were the contracts let by tender?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	Building No. 1-$135,577.61, plus additional work not yet paid for estimated by the chief architect at $21,060.56. Building No. 2- $378,684.45.
2.	Building No. 1-42,250 sq. ft. Building No. 2-123,000 sq. ft.
3.	$409,999 (amount of contract).
4.	117,200 sq. ft.
5.	$90,339.57.
6.	32,721 sq. ft.
7.	Building No. 1-Guinane Construction Co., Ltd., Toronto, Ont. Building No. 2-* A. Janin Co., Ltd., Montreal, P.Q. Building No. 3-II. Dagenais Ltd., Ottawa, Ont. Green Island, temporary building-H. Dagenais Ltd., Ottawa, Ont.
8.	Yes.


PROVINCIAL INCOME TAX COLLECTIONS BY DOMINION GOVERNMENT
Mr. MacKINNON (Kootenay-East):: 1.	For "what provinces does the Department of National Revenue collect income taxes?
2.	What charges, if any, are made for this service?


Mr. GIBSON:: 1.	Prince Edward Island; Quebec; Ontario; Manitoba; Yukon Territory.
2.	Prince Edward Island, $4,000; Quebec, 2 per cent of taxes collected; Ontario, $80,000; Manitoba, $45,000; Yukon Territory, 2 per cent of taxes collected. The charge for collection of provincial taxes is subject to adjustment each year.

Questions as Orders for Returns


VOLUNTARY SERVICE REGISTRATION BUREAU
Mr. BENCE:: 1.	Has the voluntary service registration bureau been disbanded?
2.	If so, for what reason?
3.	What use has been made of the information compiled and offers of service classified by this bureau?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	No, but staff greatly reduced as volume of work diminished.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	All departments of government were on several occasions advised that records of the offers received in the voluntary service registration bureau were available for their consideration and study. They were also furnished with particulars of the various classifications of offers. Many of the departments, other boards and agencies associated with the war effort, which are seeking the sendees of specially trained employees examine the records, which are, of course, also available to the civil service commission.
MUNITIONS AND	SUPPLY-INQUIRY	AS TO


EMPLOYMENT OF SENATORS
Mr. LOCKHART:: 1.	Are any member of the Senate of Canada employed in the Department of Munitions and Supply?
2.	If so, in what capacity?
3.	At what salary, and/or allowance, are they so employed?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by 1.
3.	Answered by 1.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-PRINCE HENRY
Mr. McGREGOR:: 1.	Did the Canadian National Steamships Company sell the Prince Henry to the Clark Steamships Company Limited?
2.	If so, when?
3.	What was the purchase price of the vessel?
4.	What amount was paid as an initial payment ?
5.	What was the amount of the annual instalments. and for how many years were they paid?
6.	Has this vessel been purchased since the outbreak of war by the dominion government?
7.	If so, what was the purchase price?
8.	What service is this vessel performing?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	S.S. Prince Henry was sold on December 23, 1938, by its owners, the Canadian National Railways, on recommendation of the board of directors of the said railway, duly approved by the governor in council.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	S500,000.
4.	$150,000.
5.	$50,000; with right to complete payment at any time.
6.	Subsequent to the outbreak of war the vessel was requisitioned by the Canadian government for naval purposes. As in the interval the owners, the Clark Steamship Company, were found to have expended $108,841 in alterations and improvements, together with an additional spare propeller and tail shaft, the Department of Munitions and Supply, which conducted the negotiations for transfer of ownership, allowed the Clark Steamship Company $600,000 in settlement, from which award the outstanding obligations to the Canadian National Railways were satisfied.
7.	Answered by No. 6.
8.	Answered by No. 6.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What were the military forces of Canada, of all kinds, as of November 1, 1940, in (a) militia; (b) overseas; (c) air; (d) naval services?
2.	How many divisions has Canada now fully equipped and drilled?
3.	Are any more contemplated to enable Canada to cooperate and coordinate with Great Britain in taking the offensive on the axis powers in various theatres of war?
4.	Was recruiting for overseas suspended during the thirty days and two weeks' training under the War Service Act? If so, on whose recommendation ?
5.	What recruiting is now being carried on?
6.	What military forces of all kinds has Canada now in Britain or in other European battle areas and how many officers and men from Canada are now overseas?


Mr. CASGRAIN (for Mr. Ralston):: Return tabled.


PRINTING CONTRACTS
Mr. GRAYDON:: 1.	To what corporation, firms or individuals has the government given contracts for printing during the year 1940?
2.	For what did the contract call in each instance, and what was the price?


AIR CADET LEAGUE OF CANADA
Mr. SHAW:: 1.	To what extent is the government of Canada behind the Air Cadet League of Canada?
2.	How far has the organization of this league advanced at the present time?
3.	How are the local organizations of the league being set up?


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.

Questions as Orders jor Returns



ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE

William Kemble Esling: How many applicants for the air service in each province who have been examined and accepted have not yet been called up?



BUREAU OF PUBLIC INFORMATION

Mr. ESLING:: 1.	How many employees are in the Bureau of Public Information?
2.	What is their aggregate salary?
3.	How many employees are engaged in publicity work in each of the following depart-, ments:	(a) external affairs; (b) national
defence; (c) national defence for air; (d) national war services and its subsidiaries; (e) munitions and supply; (f) national revenue; (g) post office; (h) mines and resources; (i) fisheries; (j) agriculture; (k) trade and commerce; and (1) transport?
4.	What is the aggregate salary in each of these departments of those engaged in publicity work?



LOBSTER CANNING AND PROCESSING INDUSTRY

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	What are the names and addresses of persons employed by the government in the marketing, handling and storage of canned, or whole, or processed lobsters during the year 1940 at, (a) Halifax, Nova Scotia; (b) Shediac, New Brunswick; (c) Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island; (d) any other place?
2.	For what period was each such person employed, what were his duties, what was his rate of remuneration and the amount paid for (a) services, and (b) expenses?
3.	What is the name of each person or packer or dealer from whom the government purchased canned lobsters, the quantity purchased from each and the amount paid to each person or packer or dealer per case and the total payment?
4.	What were the rents or charges paid for offices, storage or warehouse space, the location and the periods of lease or use, to whom were payments made and the amount paid for each such premises?
5.	What were the additional expenditures, stating for what purposes they were made and to whom paid?
6.	Did any government employee buy, sell or handle any canned lobsters for private account?
7.	If so, what are the names and particulars of any such person's business and did he have the permission of the government to engage in such business?



SUSSEX AND FREDERICTON MILITARY' CAMPS- HUTMENTS

Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	What are the dimensions of the hutments erected at the military camps at Sussex and Fredericton?
2.	What are the specifications of the lumber used in their construction?
3.	Was the lumber used in their construction planed for size?


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.



MILITARY CAMPS-SUPPY OF GARBAGE CANS

Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	How many garbage cans have been ordered for use in military camps?
2.	From whom were they ordered, and at Yvhat price?
3.	How many were sent to each military district ?
4.	When were they shipped to each military district, and when did they arrive?
5.	Were they put into immediate use or were they stored?
6.	If they were stored, ivhere were they stored ?


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.



IMPORTS OF VEGETABLES AND FRUITS

Mr. REID:: 1.	What amounts of table potatoes have been imported from the United States during the months of 1940 to October 31, giving the importations into the various provinces during those same months?
2.	What ivas the sum or sums of United States currency allowed by the foreign exchange control board from January 1 to October 31, 1940, for the purchase of United States table potatoes?
3.	What amounts of United States currency, United States funds or United States credits have been allowed or granted Canadian importers during 1940 to October 31, for importations of fresh fruits and vegetables?
4.	Has the foreign exchange board received any application from Canadian importers for the importation of quantities of tangarines from Japan?
5.	If so, what amounts of United States or Canadian funds have been granted or allowed by the foreign exchange board for the importation of tangarines?



MILITARY ENLISTMENTS AND COMMISSIONS

Mr. FAIR:: 1.	How many men have enlisted from each province in the Y'arious branches of the fighting forces of Canada since July 1, 1939?
2.	How many of these men from each province have been granted commissions since enlisting with (a) less than three months' service, (b) less than six months' service?



BACON BOARD-RECEIPTS AND EXPENDITURES

Mr. WRIGHT:: 1.	What amount of money has been paid to the bacon board from all sources?
2.	What disposal has been made of this money to date?
3.	To whom, and for Yvhat purposes have payments been made?
4.	What amount remains to the credit of the board?
5.	How does the board propose to distribute these funds?

Questions as Orders jor Returns



EAST CALGARY SUPPLY DEPOT

['1.\tWhat is the number of munition, aeroplane, tool, chemical and other plants or establishments purchased, erected or otherwise acquired and owned by the Canadian government on its own behalf and/or on behalf of the government of the United Kingdom?\n2.\tWhat is the amount of money spent on such plants or establishments (a) in total, (b) on each of them separately?\n3.\tWhat are the names of the companies created for the control and direction of such plants or establishments?\n4.\tHave such companies been incorporated under the dominion or any provincial companies act?\n5.\tWhat are the names of the directors of each sueh company, plant or establishment, and what is the position or positions now or formerly occupied by each such director in any industrial or financial institution?\n6.\tWhat are the precise powers and duties of the boards of directors of the government-owned companies, plants or establishments?\n7.\tDo such directors receive any salary or allowance? If so, what are the salaries or allowances paid or to be paid such directors?\n8.\tWhat are the respective commodities for the production or processing or purchase of which each government-owned plant or establishment is being or is intended to be used?\n9.\tWhat are the names of the managers or general managers of each of the government-owned plants or establishments, and what is the position or positions now or formerly occupied by each such manager in any industrial or financial institution?\n10.\tWhat are the salaries and/or allowances paid such managers?\n11.\t(a) Under what legal authority have such plants or establishments been acquired or set up by the government? (b) If under the authority of orders in council, does the governor in council issue a separate order for each acquisition or transaction, or has the minister been given wide authority in this sphere under one order in council? (e) Do such orders in council, if any, set forth the directors, capitalization, powers and duties, control and, generally, conduct of such government-owned plants or establishments or companies?\n12.\tHas the government made any commitments as to the disposal of such plants, establishments or businesses after the war?\n13.\tHas the government any plan regarding the disposal of such plants after the war?\n14.\tHas the government laid down any labour policy regarding wages, working conditions and trade union organization in government-owned plants or establishments?']
Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: What is the government engineer's estimated price of each of the buildings at the supply depot in east Calgary?


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.



Mr. COLDWELL:: 1.	What is the number of privately-owned plants or establishments towards the equipment and upkeep of which the Canadian and/or British government have been or are contributing in accordance with contracts entered into with the owners of such plants or establishments?
2.	What are the names of the firms owning such plants or establishments?
3.	What is the amount so spent (a) in total, (b) on each such plant or establishment?
4.	In whom is the ownership in the equipment, extensions and so on thus provided by the Canadian and/or British government vested according to the contracts entered into with the owners of the plants or establishments?
5.	What measure of control does the government retain over the operation and conduct of such plants or establishments?
6.	What is the rate of profit generally allowed in munitions, armaments, supplies and other war contracts?
7.	Are there any provisions in any of such war contracts relative to wages, working conditions and trade union organization in sueh plants or establishments?


WAR INDUSTRY-PUBLICLY-OWNED PLANTS
Mr. COLDWELL:: 1.	What is the number of munition, aeroplane, tool, chemical and other plants or establishments purchased, erected or otherwise acquired and owned by the Canadian government on its own behalf and/or on behalf of the government of the United Kingdom?
2.	What is the amount of money spent on such plants or establishments (a) in total, (b) on each of them separately?
3.	What are the names of the companies created for the control and direction of such plants or establishments?
4.	Have such companies been incorporated under the dominion or any provincial companies act?
5.	What are the names of the directors of each sueh company, plant or establishment, and what is the position or positions now or formerly occupied by each such director in any industrial or financial institution?
6.	What are the precise powers and duties of the boards of directors of the government-owned companies, plants or establishments?
7.	Do such directors receive any salary or allowance? If so, what are the salaries or allowances paid or to be paid such directors?
8.	What are the respective commodities for the production or processing or purchase of which each government-owned plant or establishment is being or is intended to be used?
9.	What are the names of the managers or general managers of each of the government-owned plants or establishments, and what is the position or positions now or formerly occupied by each such manager in any industrial or financial institution?
10.	What are the salaries and/or allowances paid such managers?
11.	(a) Under what legal authority have such plants or establishments been acquired or set up by the government? (b) If under the authority of orders in council, does the governor in council issue a separate order for each acquisition or transaction, or has the minister been given wide authority in this sphere under one order in council? (e) Do such orders in council, if any, set forth the directors, capitalization, powers and duties, control and, generally, conduct of such government-owned plants or establishments or companies?
12.	Has the government made any commitments as to the disposal of such plants, establishments or businesses after the war?
13.	Has the government any plan regarding the disposal of such plants after the war?
14.	Has the government laid down any labour policy regarding wages, working conditions and trade union organization in government-owned plants or establishments?



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY-SUBSIDIARY CORPORATIONS

['Yes.']
Clarence Decatur Howe: Return tabled.



Mr. CHAMBERS:: 1.	How many married men are regularly employed throughout the civil service at $60 a month or less?
2.	What is the length of service of these employees?
3.	After deduction, what is the net amount paid monthly to a person whose salary is $60 a month or less?
4.	Has any official recommendation been made by the civil service commission to the treasury board in connection with the rates of pay of lower grade employees, including both single and married persons? (a) If so, may the said recommendation be tabled; (b) has the treasury board taken any action to implement such recommendation?


ENEMY ALIENS-PUBLIC EMPLOYMENT
Mr. GRAYDON:: 1.	Are there any German or Italian nationals employed in any department of the dominion government?
2.	If so, how many of each are so employed?

Questions as Orders for Returns


UNITED STATES DESTROYERS ALLOCATED TO CANADA
Mr. HAZEN:: 1. How much did it cost to alter and put in commission each of the six destroyers that were made available to the Canadian navy from the fifty destroyers that the United States of America handed over to Great Britain in exchange for naval bases in the Bahamas, the British West Indies and British Guiana?
1	2. Where and by whom were, each of
these destroyers altered, repaired and put in commission?
3.	Are each of these six destroyers in commission, and on active service?


CONSTITUENCY REGISTRATIONS
Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	How many persons were .registered in each constituency in Canada on August 19th, 20th and 21st last?
2.	Of the number registered in each constituency, how many were males and how many females?
3.	What was the cost in each constituency of the registration?


SALT FISH BOARD-DEFICIENCY PAYMENTS
Mr. ROY:: 1.	What were the names of the recipients of deficiency payments made by the salt fish board for the fiscal year 1939-40, to fishermen of Sainte-Madeleine, Mont-Louis, St-Joachim, Ste-Anne-des-Monts, Cap-Chat, Capucins and Mechins, Gaspe county, and how much was paid to each?
2.	What was the total amount paid under this heading in the county of Gaspe in 1939-40?
3.	What fish dealers or agents recommended or testified as to the quantities for which such payments were made to the fishermen?
4.	What was the total amount paid upon recommendation of each of these individuals?


FISHING GEAR AND SUPPLIES TO NEEDY FISHERMEN
Mr. ROY:: 1.	What are the names of the needy fishermen who received fishing gear and supplies, and for what amount each, out of the total of $2,750 paid to D. Bouchard Ltee, of Ste-Anne-des-Monts, Gaspe county, during the fiscal year 1939-40, as shown in sessional paper No. 114, tabled Thursday, November 14, 1940, and what did such gear and supplies consist of?
2.	What are the names of the needy fishermen who received fishing gear and supplies, and for what amount each, out of the total of $1,316 paid to M. A. Beaulieu, and $781 paid to Anicet Letourneau, both of Mont-Louis, Gaspe county, in the said year, as shown in the same sessional paper, and what did such gear and supplies consist of?


MAGDALEN ISLANDS FISHERMEN
Mr. ROY:: 1.	Has the government received any request for help from the needy people of the Magdalen islands?
2.	If so, has the government replied, and in what way?
(Mr. Graydon.l


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. COLD WELL:: For a return showing: the number of voluntary pools formed under the provisions of the Wheat Cooperative Marketing Act, 1939, together with the names and addresses of such pools and the names of elevator companies forming each of the pools;
Also a statement for each pool showing: (a) gross sales price per bushel, basis Fort William; (b) sales expense and operating expenses per bushel; (c) net sales prices per bushel; (d) initial payment per bushel to farmer; (e) interim payment per bushel to farmer; (f) net final 'payment per bushel to farmer.


James Garfield Gardiner: Some of this information may be confidential and the order will be complied with except in so far as it involves such information.


Georges Parent: Carried with that proviso.


NATIONAL WAR SERVICES-WINNIPEG ORGANIZATION
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MAYBANIv:
For a return showing: the name, address, age, sex and marital condition of every employee in the office of the divisional registrar under the national war services organization at Winnipeg, Manitoba;
Also a statement showing whether there are any married women so employed, and whether any such have husbands gainfully employed, and, if so, their names;
Also a statement showing whether any of such employees are in receipt of any government annuity, either dominion, provincial or municipal, and, if so, the name of such person or persons, the nature of such payment and the amount thereof;
And also a statement showing whether any of the said employees are returned soldiers, and, if so, what are their names.

Mr. CHURCH:: For a copy of all rules and regulations issued by order in council or otherwise under the War-time Service Act, 1940.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is no
such act as the war-time service act, 1940. I imagine the hon. member meant the National Resources Mobilization Act. If so, the minister informs me that most of the orders and regulations have already been tabled but there are probably some that may have been passed recently, and in that event the minister will have them tabled forthwith.

Motions for Papers


Richard Burpee Hanson: Could
the motion stand until we ascertain just what the hon. member means? I was myself rather puzzled by it.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It can stand.
Motion stands.


HINCHCLIFFE, SASK., POST OFFICE
Mr. NICHOLSON:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, petitions, recommendations and other documents in the possession of the Post Office Department, dated during the past year, in connection with the change of postmaster at Hinchcliffe, Saskatchewan.


NON-INTEREST WAR LOAN SUBSCRIPTIONS
Mr. COLDWELL:: For a return showing: (1) number of subscriptions to interest-free war loans; (2) average amount of such subscriptions; (3) a list of such subscriptions with the amounts subscribed by each subscriber; (4) what steps the minister has taken to popularize voluntary non-interest war loan subscriptions.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The first two parts of this
motion are all right so far as I am concerned, but I do not think the third and fourth can properly be moved for in the house. The list of subscriptions, with the amount subscribed by each subscriber, could not be given. We asked subscribers whether they would like to have their names published, whether they were willing to have the government give such publicity, and some of them did not wish to have that done. As regards the fourth part of the motion, as to what steps the minister has taken to popularize voluntary non-interest war loan subscriptions, that is a question which is hardly susceptible of precise answer in a return, nor is it usual to ask such questions in motions for returns. I suggest that the motion pass as regards clauses 1 and 2.


CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION-ALAN B. PLAUNT
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: For a copy of all correspondence, reports, memoranda and other documents passing between Alan B. Plaunt, formerly a member of the board of governors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and any official of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation or _ the Minister of Transport or any other minister, since January 1, 1939.


Major James William Coldwell: For a copy of the order in council accepting the resignation of Alan B. Plaunt, formerly a member of the board of governors of the Canadian Broadcasting Commission,
which, according to a statement made by the Honourable C. D. Howe at Quebec, on October 25, 1940, was accepted about three weeks prior to that date.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Return tabled.


ATTITUDE OF CANADA IN THE EVENT OF WAR BETWEEN HIS MAJESTY AND ANY OTHER POWER
Mr. HAZEN:: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, cables and other documents exchanged between His Majesty's government in the United Kingdom and His Majesty's government in Canada from September 1, 1938, to September 15, 1939, relating to the attitude of Canada in the event of an outbreak of hostilities between His Majesty and any other power.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I must point out, with respect to this motion, in the first place that it would be necessary to obtain the consent of his majesty's government in the United Kingdom for the production of any of the documents or correspondence requested but altogether apart from that I do not think that either his majesty's government in the United Kingdom or his majesty's government in Canada would at 'the present time deem it advisable to make public any correspondence relating to the attitude of Canada in the event of an outbreak of hostilities between his majesty and any other power. Obviously correspondence which would deal with such a matter would include references to many phases of the question, a part of which would certainly be likely to occasion many difficulties, if such correspondence were made public. The order will -have to be denied.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is there correspondence, and are there other documents?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I cannot say. I would say to my hon. friend that I doubt very much whether it would be advisable for me to say either yes or no to that particular question.


CUSTOMS ACT-VALUES FOR DUTY UNDER SECTION 43
Mr. McGREGOR:: For a copy of all orders in council passed since October 23, 1935, authorizing the Minister of National Revenue to fix values for duty under Section 43 of the Customs Act, together with any orders made by the Minister of National Revenue pursuant to such orders in council.
Motions for Papers


ST. LAWRENCE WATERWAYS
Mr. CASSELMAN (Grenville-Dundas):: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the government of Canada and province of Ontario or between any officials of the said governments from January 1, 1938, up to this present date in connection with the St. Lawrence waterways.
For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the government of Canada and that of the United States or between any officials of said governments either through the departments or commissioners from January 1, 1938, up to this present date, in connection with the St. Lawrence waterways.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The first motion refers more particularly to correspondence between the province of Ontario and the dominion government with respect to the St. Lawrence waterway since January 1, 1938. The next motion is almost identical except that it refers to correspondence between the United States government and the government of Canada with respect to St. Lawrence waterway. Perhaps I should say that such discussions as there have been on this matter thus far have been largely provisional. The discussions are not concluded. Such part of the transactions as have been concluded have been recorded and the records in reference *thereto have already been tabled. Such discussion as has taken place has been oral in the nature of conferences and there is no further correspondence that it would be possible to table at this time.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Is there no definite agreement yet?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The papers
I tabled a day or two ago indicate the nature of the agreement that has been reached.


Richard Burpee Hanson: And that is the only agreement up to date?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.



DIPLOMATIC PRIVILEGES OR IMMUNITIES

Major James William Coldwell: For a return showing the names, addresses and nationalities of all persons or representatives of foreign states and powers who enjoy diplomatic privileges or immunities in Canada at the present time.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Return tabled.



GOVERNOR GENERAL'S WARRANTS

Arza Clair Casselman: For a copy of all orders in council authorizing issuance of governor general's warrants since August 1, 1939, together with a statement showing the amount expended under each warrant issued.



DOLLAR-A-YEAR MEN ON GOVERNMENT WORK

Douglas Gooderham Ross: For a return showing: (a) the names of all persons who are or have at any time been engaged in government work as so-called "dollar-a-year men"; (b) the nature of the duties performed by each such person; (e) the ordinary peace-time occupation of each such person; (d) the amount of travelling expenses and living allowances paid to each such person from the date of their appointment until the present, and the daily rate of such allowances.



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE ACT-ACREAGE BONUS IN TOWNSHIP 39, RANGE 16, W'EST OF FOURTH MERIDIAN

Mr. MARSHALL:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, affidavits and other documents in the possession of the government, dated from November 1, 1939, to October 31, 1940, regarding the application for the acreage bonus in township 39, range 16, W. 4th M.


James Garfield Gardiner: It was agreed by the house last session that it would not be wise to produce affidavits made by individuals in connection with the Prairie Farm Assistance Act. I wTould suggest that the order be amended to leave out the w'ord "affidavits".



COMMONWEALTH AIR TRAINING PLAN- ELEMENTARY FLYING SCHOOLS

Mr. MacINNIS:: For a copy of the contract or contracts entered into by the Department of National Defence for Air, or any other department, with any private concern or association relative to the training in and the control and operation of the elementary flying schools established under the empire air training plan.


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.



MILITARY TRAINING OF UNIVERSITY STUDENTS

Major James William Coldwell: For a copy of all correspondence, reports, memoranda and other documents exchanged between the government or any of its departments and the universities, regarding an agreement respecting military training of university students.



RELEASE OF INTERNED ALIENS

George Russell Boucher: For a return showing the number of persons in each of the following categories: Germans, Italians, Communists, National Unity Party, who have been released from internment since July 27, 1940.


Ernest Lapointe: Mr. Speaker, I would like this motion to stand. Last year the parliamentary committee reported

that among other requirements 'the Minister of Justice should make a report to parliament as to (a) the number of persons detained under orders made pursuant to this regulation; and (b) the number of cases, if any, in which the minister declined to follow the advice of any advisory committee which may be appointed under the next parliamentary regulation. This has been done. This motion asks for other information as to the classification of the various internees with regard to their race, political opinions and similar matters. I should like to consult with my advisers as to whether it is in the public interest to give or withhold this information.
I may also say that it is the intention to reappoint at this session the parliamentary committee which sat on the defence of Canada regulations, and to consider whether some changes are advisable. That committee might be asked to pass upon the advisability of having a more complete report. I should, however, like to consider this motion before it is passed.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I point
out that this motion does not ask for names, it asks only for numbers. It seems to me it would be illogical to give the numbers of those interned in the various categories and refuse to give the numbers let out.


Ernest Lapointe: But it
asks for racial classification and whether they are communists or members of the Arcand party and matters of that kind.
Motion stands.



CAP-DE-LA-MADELEINE ELEMENTARY FLYING SCHOOL

Mr. ROY:: For a copy of contract or contracts between the Department of National Defence for Air and Quebec Airways Training Limited for construction of an elementary flying school at Cap-de-la-Madeleine.


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.



DAYLIGHT SAVING TIME-EXTENSION

Mr. STOKES:: For a copy of all orders in council relating to the extension of daylight saving time, together with any regulations made thereunder by the power controller; and for a copy of all letters, memoranda, and other documents, since August 1, 1940 to date, passing between the power controller and/or the chairman or secretary of the wartime industries control board and any member or official of the dominion government or any member or official of a provincial government or of a provincial hydro-electric system, relating to the extension of daylight saving time.
Prairie Farm Assistance



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. G. ROSS (Moose Jaw):: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner). Has the government yet considered the advisability of bringing into effect section 3 of the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, 1940, by declaring 1940 an emergency year?
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) ; The government have decided to declare the year 1940^41 an emergency year as provided for under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act.


Mr. PERLEY:: Pursuant to the minister's
statement that this will be declared an emergency year, will he state that the payments provided for in this act will be made in December instead of some time next year?


James Garfield Gardiner: The payments under the act will be made in accordance with the terms of the act.


Ernest Edward Perley: That is good news; it never has been so in the past.


Mr. MacKENZIE (Lambton-Kent):: In
view of the fact that the western provinces grew 550,000,000 bushels of wheat last year, just what constitutes an emergency year?



LABOUR DISPUTE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Angus MacInnis: Is the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty) now in a position to reply to the question I asked last Thursday with regard to the application of the defence of Canada regulations to people picketing in protected areas?


Norman Alexander McLarty: The hon. member was kind enough to notify me of his intention of asking this question.
It is primarily, of course, a matter of legal interpretation, and is at present before the courts. I understand a decision was given in connection with it yesterday in Windsor, but I have not been advised as to the basis of the decision or the reasons for it. Until that information is available and until I have had

The Address-Mr. Howe

the advantage of an opinion from the Department of Justice, I believe it would be most inadvisable for me to express any opinion.


Major James William Coldwell: May I ask a supplementary question? Did the government intend or contemplate that this regulation should be or could be used to prevent peaceful. picketing by organized labour?


Ernest Lapointe: From section 27 of the defence of Canada regulations I should like to quote these words:
Provided that a person shall not be guilty of an offence under this regulation by reason only of his taking part in, or peacefully persuading any other person to take part in, a strike.
I cannot say more than that, because I really do not know the facts with regard to this case.



DEFENCE OF CANADA REGULATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. NORMAN JAQUES (Wetaskiwin):: May I ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) if he is in a position now to answer the question I asked yesterday?


Ernest Lapointe: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The
article referred to appeared in the magazine of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce. That article has been considered, and it does not appear to advocate the adoption of communism in Canada. The answers to the second and third questions are in the negative.



ADDITIONAL PAYMENT TO WESTERN FARMERS ON 1939 CROP CERTIFICATES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Ernest Edward Perley: On
Thursday last the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon) stated that the wheat growers of Ontario would receive an added payment on the 1939 wheat certificates. Would the minister tell the house when the western wheat growers may expect an added payment on their 1939 crop certificates?


James Angus MacKinnon: I think the only
reply I can give at the present time is, when there is money available for distribution.



GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, November 19, consideration of the motion of Mr. Brooke Claxton for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury) and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Blackmore.
Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, in attempting to prepare a statement that will convey to hon. members an appreciation of the work of the Department of Munitions and Supply, my difficulty is to determine what can be said and what cannot be said. My desire is, of course, to give hon. members the fullest possible account of what is being manufactured and the position of each separate project. We must appreciate, however, that anything said here will represent an official report to enemy countries, and for that reason definite production statements are unwise. A recent cable from the dominions office in Great Britain stresses the importance of carefully guarding production figures for munitions and aeroplanes. With this handicap, all that I can hope to do is to give hon. members a general idea of the work in hand, the methods being followed and the barest possible outline of the state of production.
The general broad plan or plans guiding the operations of the Department of Munitions and Supply is set forth in the Munitions and Supply Act and, with the addition of certain amendments of last year, I am happy to say that the plans and policies therein outlined have proved to be adequate to meet the situation as it has developed.
We have been most fortunate in the type of business men and technical experts who now direct the different branches of the department. Our staff is necessarily large, and the work with which it is engaged is highly technical. I think it is amazing that so competent a personnel could have been built up in so short a time. As weak spots develop we endeavour to find the person to strengthen the particular department, and we are always glad of offers of assistance.
For the past year we in Canada have been converting as rapidly as possible our peacetime economy into an economy of war. We have been striving to direct the total resources of the nation into channels which will enable us to accomplish this objective, and we have striven and are striving to divert an ever-increasing proportion of our production into

The Address-Mr. Howe
[DOT]channels which will promote a war-time economy. We are gradually attempting to divert goods from civil .to military uses.
It must be clear to all hon. members that before a plant can be built you must have plans, and these must be carefully drawn. Some time has been necessarily consumed in the obtaining of these plans. The construction period follows, and I am glad to say that we are gradually emerging from that construction period. We have actually some new plants now in production and many more will be in production within the next two or three months.
The problem of obtaining trained personnel to operate these plants is and has been giving us a good deal of concern. Our technical schools in all parts of Canada are giving special courses adapted to the needs of a variety of industries and have proven one of our main sources of recruits for skilled trades. Production teams have been sent to the United Kingdom to study operating technique, while others have been sent to the United States for the same purpose. Continuous studies are being made of the supply of skilled and unskilled labour in all parts of Canada to the end that the movement of labour may be localized as much as possible. The entry of women into certain types of munitions industries is expanding, and it has been found that in operations where deftness rather than strength is required women are often more efficient than men. As time goes on there must necessarily be a movement of employment from luxury or semi-luxury industries to war industries. The Canadian workman readily adapts himself to new types of employment, and we are confident that the plants we are building can and will be adequately manned even though the work in hand is of an entirely new type.
The matter of employment and the relationship between employer and employee has been under constant study by .the officers of this department and the Department of Labour. Indeed, as a result of such study the Department of Labour has recently created the interdepartmental committee on labour coordination, and as a further step a war-time requirements board has been set up to formulate such plan or plans as may be necessary to ensure *that war needs in the order of their importance shall have priority over all other needs.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is that the board of which Mr. MacMillan is chairman?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. It has been the purpose of the department to mobilize industry from maximum production of war materials. When munitions plants now under construction or being tooled up reach full production, it is my opinion that our productive capacity will
14873-17i
have been tested to its practical limit. We are still undertaking new projects, but the location of such projects must now be confined to selected areas that still offer surplus power and labour possibilities. Large concentrations of employment in new projects are no longer possible.
Having in mind the limitations that must be imposed on production figures, it may be worth while to give hon. members a brief general view of the industrial situation in Canada, before discussing particular production programmes.
1. General review. In the last statement which I made in this house with respect to Canada's war effort, toward the close of the last session, I explained that the nature of our problems was changing. I pointed out that, in the first period of the war, the United Kingdom appeared to believe that she would be in a position largely to depend on her own munitions industry. The successive overrunning of Denmark, Norway, Holland, and Belgium, and the collapse of France changed the entire situation. Britain was now left alone in Europe and besieged. All her production was immediately necessary at home. The earlier plans for our joint effort, therefore, had to be revised. Where originally these plans called for special equipment to be supplied to Canada from Great Britain, now alternative sources had to be found in Canada and the United States. Britain's need for supplies from overseas jumped, and Canada was requested to go full speed ahead.
The work which had already been done in Canada greatly facilitated the placing of new orders, and the rapid increase of production. Contracts were awarded with increasing speed. In the first quarter of this year, the number of contracts averaged approximately 1,910 per month; in the second quarter, approximately 4,070 per month; and, in the third quarter, nearly 7,500 per month. During the month of September, contracts were awarded at the average rate of 325 per working day, as compared with 170 per working day in June. As of November 11, the total of orders placed for Canadian account totalled 540 million dollars, and for British account a total of 309 million dollars. Thus, the grand total of orders placed by the Department of Munitions and Supply has reached 849 million dollars. We were not engaged, however, merely in awarding contracts. As a result of the contracts awarded, the tempo of Canadian industry has risen to record heights.
The following comparison of economic indicators, for the month of September, 1940, as compared with September, 1939, is a measure of the increased industrial activity of Canada, resulting directly or indirectly from war orders and of the output of our factories for war purposes:
The Address-Mr. Howe

Indices of Economic Activity (1926 = 100)
September,	September,	Percent1939	1940	increasePhysical volume of business	
125-8	155-4	24Industrial production 	
128-3	167-0	30Manufacturing production 	
121-3	159-7	32Iron and steel production	
98-2	242-9	148Textile production	
150-0	182-9	22Construction 	
48-6	127-0	161
The increased economic activity is measured further by the following statistics:
Volume of Output
September, September, Per cent 1939	1940	increasePig iron production	tons	65,954	111,020	84Steel ingots and castings	tons	124,384	164,400	32British Columbia timber	board feet 229,000,000	339,000,000	49Cars and trucks	
3,922	15,475	294
Construction contracts for the nine months ending September 30, 1940, amounted to $195,490,000, as compared with $150,781,000 for the corresponding period of 1939-an increase of 30 per cent.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Does that include all construction contracts?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Air, and all?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. The month of September, 1940, alone showed an, increase in construction contracts of 161 per cent over September, 1939.
The acceleration of the air training, militia and other construction programmes incident to our war efforts necessitated the absorption, for war purposes, of a substantial proportion of Canada's construction capacity-equal to about 60 per cent of the capacity used for all purposes in 1938.
Another measure of our war effort, apart from the enormous increase in production of implements of war, is the increase in the exports of Canadian products, particularly to the United Kingdom. Consisting as they do of foods, raw materials and manufactured goods, these exports to Great Britain are an indication of our increasing contributions to the war effort overseas. The aggregate value of exports to the United Kingdom for the nine months ending September, 1940, was $380,817,000, as compared with $242,725,000 in the first nine months of 1939. This shows a very gratifying increase of 56 per cent.
2. The war programme. I now want to turn from the general picture to the more specific features of our war programme, and to present to this house a report on the progress of our programme of expansion of industrial facilities, and production of munitions and war supplies. A great variety of items which we have asked Canadian industry

to produce have never before been produced in Canada. Added to the problem of organizing existing productive capacity for maximum output, has been that of constructing and tooling up the plants to produce the diversified equipment of modem warfare, and the bringing of these new plants into production in the shortest possible time.
In so far as possible, it has been the policy of the government to rely upon existing plants for securing adequate supplies of munitions and their components. In many cases, however, the necessary plants did not exist, or, if they existed, their capacities were inadequate, and extensions of existing plants, or the construction of wholly new plants, has been necessary. The policy of the government, in giving financial assistance to expand existing plants, or to build new plants, has been based on the fact that the government is itself the sole purchaser of the production from these plants and, therefore, would itself pay any sums set aside as depreciation in the war period. We have, therefore, in cases where facilities cannot be financed privately, adopted the policy that new construction, or expansion of manufacturing equipment, should be paid for by the government, and ownership retained by the government. In the case of new buildings, we have required that the land be deeded to the government, or leased to the government on satisfactory terms. Where machinery has been placed in an existing building, the machines have been stamped as the property of the government, so that government property can be recovered when its usefulness ceases for the production of munitions.
I should qualify the foregoing statement by saying that circumstances do not always permit us to follow the pattern I have described. We have on occasion found it necessary to expand plants along lines which

The Address-Mr. Howe
do not permit the segregation of private property and government property. In such cases it has been our practice to place the operation of the plant in the hands of trustees, whose duty it is to protect the respective interests of private and public investment. Great care has been taken to see that every investment of public funds in plant expansion has been safeguarded as fully as possible, with the purpose that, at the end of the war, public investment will be represented by physical assets that can be segregated and disposed of as may then seem wise. Incidentally, the course we have followed will make it possible immediately to withdraw from industry plants built at public expense, and thus prevent disorganization when purchases must be contracted down to peace-time needs.
The locations of new plants have been chosen for strategic reasons, and with due regard to the availability of raw materials, power and labour.


Mr. GREEN:: At this point could the
minister tell us roughly the number of plants in each of the geographical divisions of Canada -in the maritimes, central Canada, the prairies and British Columbia-or can he tell us the amounts to be invested in these areas?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I was prepared to give the house that information and I am just coming to that point.
In all, our programme of capital assistance covers 146 projects, aggregating about $255,000,000, with title to the projects vested in the crown. A substantial number of these plants have already been completed and are in production, and work on the remainder is being rushed to completion.
The before-mentioned projects have been financed jointly by Britain and Canada, roughly in proportion to the division of the production. The Canadian proportion of the total is a little over 30 per cent. In these plants, Canadian industry is producing all the chemicals that are used in the manufacture of explosives, and is producing or will be producing some chemicals which have hitherto not been produced in the British empire; it is producing or will be producing almost every type of shell in use in the present war; it is producing or will be producing field guns and gun carriages, naval guns, aircraft and tank machine guns, anti-tank guns, tanks, universal carriers, mechanized transport, training and fighting aeroplanes, and practically all other items of essential equipment to meet the needs of modern mechanized warfare.
Included in the list of new projects are two plants for the manufacture of brass required
for the munitions programme, the aggregate capacity of which is more than five times the previously existing capacity in Canada.
Hon. members have shown an interest in the distribution of war orders by provinces, and I am glad to give such information as I can on this, even though I consider that the matter of distribution is secondary to that of obtaining efficient production. It must be borne in mind that hydro-electric power is an essential of low cost production, and that large blocks of surplus power are obtainable only in the provinces of Quebec and Ontario. This fact has had much to do with the location of new plants in these two provinces. Studies have been made of the possibilities of every province, and in every case, lack of power has been the obstacle to establishing large industries outside the areas I have mentioned. We have attempted to distribute our orders as widely as possible, and distribution charts are laid on my desk each month with the purpose of ensuring that a reasonable balance is maintained.
I have here a chart which I shall ask to have printed in Hansard, covering the war period up to September 30 last, which shows the distribution of the orders placed by the Department of Munitions and Supply for Canadian account only, divided by provinces. I should point out that the chart does not include British purchases of munitions, aluminum, aeroplanes, steel, steel alloys, lumber, including pit props, aeroplane spruce and dimension timber, and does not include foodstuffs for Britain. The figures I give do not include expenditures made directly through the service departments, including projects built by day labour. Therefore the figures do not represent in any way the full incidence of war-buying in different parts of Canada, but merely show how orders for Canadian account placed by the Department of Munitions and Supply are distributed.
Three sets of figures are given: first, the dollar value of purchases; second, purchases per unit of population; and, third, purchases per SI .000 invested in manufacturing facilities prior to the war.
By investment in manufacturing facilities I mean the value of the factories as compiled by the bureau of statistics. I should say also that the figures do not include sums spent in capital assistance for the building of new plants or expansion of existing plants.
I think it will be of more service to hon. members if I ask to have this chart printed in Hansard rather than attempt to read it in the house:
The Address-Mr. Howe

Department of Munitions and Supply Division of Economies and Statistics
(Condensed statement)
Total contracts awarded July 14, 1939, to September 30, 1940 On Canadian account
Classified by country or province in which placed Showing dollar value of purchases, the population of each province and the capital invested in manufacturing industries, the purchases per capita and per $1,000 of capital thus invested.
			(d)		(f)
(a)	(b)	(c)	Dollars	(e)	PurchasesDollar value	Population	invested in Purchases	per $1,000Country or	of purchases	estimate	manufactur-	per	invested inprovince	000 omitted	ing facilities	capita	manufactur-000 omitted	ing facilitiesPrince Edward Island . ..	$ 1,764,150	95	? 2,652	$18 57	$665 21Nova Scotia 	7,445.561	554	91,393	13 44	81 47New Brunswick 	6,563.946	451	81.965	14 55	80 08Quebec 	122,307,066	3,210	1,146,235	38 10	106 70Ontario 	182,121,754	3,752	1,676.896	48 54	108 61Manitoba 	, 10,686.375	727	114.367	14 70	93 44Saskatchewan 	8,437,581	949	38,364	8 89	219 93Alberta 	8,187,256	789	69,192	10 38	118 33British Columbia 	23.467,826	774	264,615 (w)	30 32	88 69Several provinces (x) ..	12,960,000	11,315	3,485,683	1 15	3 72Canada 	$383,941,515	11,315	$3,485,683	$33 93	$110 15United Kingdom (y) ...	31,433,929	United States (z) 	19,154,754	Grand total 	$434,530,198	11,315	$38 40	
(b) Includes materials and contracts for the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan, Civil Aviation Division, Department of Transport.
(e) See Canada Year Book 1940, page 103, estimate for 1939.
(d) See Canada Year Book 1940, page 399, estimate for 1938.
(e)	Computed by dividing (c) into (b).
(f)	Computed by dividing (d) into (b) multiplied by 1,000.
(w)	Includes Yukon.
(x)	Amounts not definitely allocated.
(y)	Requisitions to the Admiralty, the War Office and the Air Ministry, England.
(z)	Contracts placed directly with manufacturers and contractors in the United States.
Under the heading of construction, let me refer now to the joint air training plan.
My colleague the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) has outlined to you the scope of the construction projects associated with the air training plan. Excellent progress has been made in constructing the 100 separate aerodromes required for this plan. While the schedule called for a two-year construction programme, the end of this year will see the whole programme about seven-eighths completed. All airports will have been completed well in advance of the date of opening of the air school, on the accelerated schedule. During the year these airports have been selected, surveyed and built. Practically every unit of dirt-moving equipment, and every asphalt plant, in Canada has been in use throughout the past season. Two hundred sites were reported on, and 150 detailed surveys made, before the 100 airports could be selected. Twenty million yards of earth have been moved; about 170 miles of hard-surfaced runways have been completed, which,

if converted into a roadway twenty feet wide, would be 850 miles in length, equivalent to the distance from Moncton to Toronto.
Buildings have been built for the students and personnel, hangars have been constructed, and all the appurtenances to the schools have been provided. To date 36 schools have been completed and are in operation, and buildings for the entire programme will have been completed by next midsummmer.
In addition to the joint air training plan, 37 Royal Canadian Air Force permanent stations have been under construction, 18 of which have now been completed. All these service aerodromes and permanent stations will be completed by the end of March next.
Of the 51 militia projects undertaken, including coast defence batteries, arsenals, magazines, military training centres, conversion of buildings, storehouses and temporary accommodation, 29 have been completed. The remainder, it is expected will be completed by March 31 next. This does not include 29 projects undertaken by the Department of National Defence

The Address-Mr. Howe
by day labour, the material for which was purchased by the Department of Munitions and Supply.
Of the 21 naval projects undertaken, including anti-submarine booms, torpedo nets, blocking of channel, barrack buildings, boathouses, storehouses, magazines and fire alarm systems, 15 have been completed, and the remainder will be completed by June, 1941.
Under the heading of other projects, our construction division is also supervising 11 projects involving plant extensions for the manufacture of arms and ammunition, and new plants for the manufacture and repair of aircraft, precision and optical instruments.
The aggregate value of the aforementioned construction programme is approximately $89,000,000.
This does not include projects under the supervision of Allied War Supplies Corporation, nor does it include the plants extended by many private companies under subvention from the government.
With regard to aircraft production, our aircraft industry is expanding rapidly and is producing planes to ipeet the requirements of the joint air training plan, and is also building operational aeroplanes for Great Britain and Canada. The output of planes is expanding each week in this new Canadian industry. Existing plants have been extended and new plants have been, and are being, constructed. The industry is in process of being reorganized on a production line basis. Canada is now building complete aeroplanes except for the engines, and, for the present, engines are being purchased either in the United States or in Great Britain. Production covers practically every type of training plane in use in Canada and several types of operational planes.
Hon. members will wish to have an explanation of why Canada has not as yet undertaken the manufacture of aeroplane engines. I must accept sole responsibility for the situation as it is to-day. I think that I cannot fairly be accused of reluctance to undertake large expenditures for war purposes, but I do wish to be sure that any of our undertakings can be brought to a successful conclusion and meet the need for which it is intended. The manufacture of areoplane engines involves an enormous capital expenditure, a very heavy drain on available supplies of machine tools, and a very large number of highly skilled workmen. Production cannot be obtained in less than a period of eighteen months, and, when production is obtained, it will be for only one size and type of engine, whereas Canada uses some ten sizes of engine and two different types. It had seemed to me that in the present state of our industrial production we
would be well advised to purchase aeroplane engines outside Canada, rather than to attempt to build them. I am now making a fresh study of the situation in the light of recent developments in the United States. My new attitude has been influenced by the fact that Canada is now in position to produce certain essential components that formerly would have had to be imported, and further by the fact that our machine tool situation is becoming less difficult. Whether we can now undertake to build aeroplane engines in Canada will depend on whether the necessary machine tools can be made available from United States sources.
With regard to shipbuilding, I am glad to report that our programme is well ahead of schedule. You will recall that in my test report to the house the shipbuilding programme involved the construction of 54 corvettes on Canadian account and 10 corvettes on British account, and 28 minesweepers on Canadian account, all to be delivered in 1940 and 1941. All scheduled deliveries for 1940 will be maintained, and work on boats scheduled for delivery in 1941 is well advanced.
Since I last addressed the house, contracts for 10 additional mine sweepers, diesel driven, have been awarded for delivery in 1941. In addition to the above, 181 smaller vessels of various types have been delivered, including refuelling gasoline scows, aircraft tenders, bomb-loading tenders, salvage boats, scows and supply boats. In addition, we have acquired and converted a number of merchant ships, yachts and miscellaneous boats. I may remind the house that one of these converted vessels recently took a very valuable enemy prize.
We have recently completed negotiations for the construction in Canada of 18 large merchant vessels for British government account, and contracts are in process of being awarded. These boats will be built in our larger shipyards on the St. Lawrence river and Pacific coast.
An additional programme of corvettes and mine sweepers is under consideration.
Sixteen shipyards on the east and west coasts, the St. Lawrence river and great lakes, are engaged in our larger shipbuilding programme, and 25 smaller shipyards are working on the small boat programme. It is estimated that some 14,000 men are empolyed in shipyards and industries 'associated with the shipbuilding programme.
To deal now with automobile equipment, the mechanization of modern military establishments and the movement of troops and equipment require large numbers of army
The Address-Mr. Howe

vehicles of many types. Canada is particularly fortunate in having a well organized and efficient automotive industry. Steps have been taken to tool up that industry for the production of the various types of automotive equipment necessary for mechanized warfare to a productive capacity of about 600 units per day. Some 30,000 military units have been delivered, and orders now on hand will keep the industry employed to capacity until the end of September, 1941.
My hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) stated that I said in Toronto that the industry was then producing 600 units per day of military equipment.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I said, you were reported to have said.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My notes indicate that I stated that the production was then about 400 units per day, which was true at that time. To-day production is considerably in excess of 400 units per day, although it has not fully reached its ultimate capacity of 600 units per day.
Reports from Great Britain indicate that Canadian transport equipment is superior to production from any source of supply.
The automotive equipment required for military purposes has involved the construction of two types of special heavy service tires. Canadian industry is being tooled up to produce such tires at the rate of 2,000 tires and tubes per day.
Tanks and Universal Carriers As to tanks and universal carriers, production of tanks is well advanced and we expect to be in substantial production early in the new year. A Canadian source of armour plate has been developed and we will now produce all the components of the tank except the engines. Arrangements have been made to go into production on the new Anglo-American tank in a very substantial way.
We have also arranged for a very substantial production of universal carriers, and deliveries will begin before the end of the present month. These will be an all-Canadian product.
Munitions
Coming now to munitions, eight plants are actually producing shells, and nineteen are producing shell components. Thirteen other plants are being tooled up for the production of shells and five plants for the production of components. The present producing plants 
are also being tooled up for increased capacity. Shells now being produced in Canada include the following sizes:
40 millimetre
18-pounder
25-pounder
3-	7-inch
4-	5 howitzer 4-5 quick-firing
4-5-inch 60-pounder 4-inch
6-inch howitzer 9 [DOT] 2-inch
The results of this tooling up will be to increase the productive capacity to a rate of at least 2,000,000 shells per month.
Canada has not engaged in the manufacture of munitions since the last war, and, therefore, did not have readily available the necessary machine tools or equipment for the production of shells and ammunition, except that produced at dominion arsenals. It has been necessary to provide and tool up the manufacturing capacity that we now have. As the machine tool capacity of Canada is limited, it has been necessary to order large quantities of machine tools in the United States, most of which had to be manufactured.
A round of ammunition includes all the component parts which make up the final product, including shell, cartridge, fuse, base plates, primers, gaines, tracers, driving band, and other components, each of which requires special plant and equipment, as well as skilled labour, for its production.	*
The first of three shell-filling plants will be in operation before the end of this month, at which time all shell components and the explosives will be available from Canadian manufacture. Canadian shell filling capacity will balance Canadian production of shells.
Plants are also being equipped for the production of aerial bombs, depth charges, smoke floats and pyrotechnics.
In considering the present Canadian programme in the manufacture of guns, it is well to bear in mind that Canada has in the past never manufactured a gun of any type other than the Ross rifle. Prior to the outbreak of war, contracts had been awarded for the Bren gun, 7,000 on Canadian account and 5,000 on British account. Actual production on that contract started last April and substantial quantities of guns and extra barrel assemblies have been delivered. Arrangements have been made to increase the production of Bren guns very largely, and added production is coming in each week.
No other guns are actually being produced as yet, although 40 millimeter Bofors loose barrels are in production. Arrangements have

The Address-Mr. Howe
been made for the manufacture of guns and gun carriages in Canada, on Canadian account and British account, of the following types: 40 mm. Bofors anti-aircraft guns
3-	7-inch anti-aircraft guns 25-pounder guns and carriages Colt-Browning aircraft machine guns Colt-Browning tank machine guns 6-pounder guns for tanks 2-pounder anti-tank guns and carriages
4-	inch guns and mountings 12-pounder guns .and mountings 4-inch naval guns
6-ineh naval guns Lee-Enfield rifles
Further arrangements have been made for additional types of naval guns and mountings. The result is that Canada will shortly be making practically every type of gun in use in the present war.
The leader of the opposition has asked the question-why Canada is not producing Lewis guns. The answer is that we are producing Colt-Browning machine guns, which are the equivalent of the Lewis gun and considered preferable for modem warfare.
This programme for the manufacture of guns has involved plant construction and rearrangement on a very large scale, and the provision of large quantities of special machine tools, many of which have had to be purchased in the United States. Our gun programme is well advanced, and very substantial production will be obtained by April of next year. Our infant industry is a very healthy child.
Modern warfare requires a great variety of chemicals and explosives not ordinarily required for peace-time uses, or required only in small quantities. These chemicals and explosives are essential raw materials for any munitions programme.
As indicated in my last statement to this house, Canada is undertaking a large explosive and chemical programme, on both British and Canadian account. Fifteen of such projects are under way, each of which to a greater or less degree has required the design and construction of entirely new plants, or the expansion in some cases of already existing
plants. One of such plants designed for the production of explosives has already been put in operation, and the remainder are progressing satisfactorily and are scheduled to be in operation by April, 1941.
Arrangements are being made for a further expansion of Canada's productive capacity for explosives and shell filling, so as to synchronize productive capacity for explosives with the capacity for the production of shells of various types, and in addition to provide a surplus of explosives for shipment to Great Britain.
Raw materials for the manufacture of explosives include ammonia, ammonium nitrate, toluol, carbamite, solvents, acetone, picrite, hexachlorethane, activated carbon, phosphorus, chlorates and perchlorates and monoethyl-aniline.
The chemical and explosives projects are all being supervised by Allied War Supplies Corporation, which is a wholly-owned government company.
Speaking of the explosives programme, I should perhaps say a word about the unfortunate explosion which occurred at our first explosives plant a night or two ago. Unfortunately three lives were lost in the explosion. In view of the fact that explosions in munitions plants are almost inevitable from time to time, it seems to me that the employees in plants of that type deserve the same kind of recognition as is given to armed forces in the combat area. I should like to express the sympathy of the government to the relatives of the three men who were killed and to express the hope that these unfortunate explosions can be kept to the minimum throughout the production period.
Deliveries of clothing and personal equipment are now ample to meet the needs of the Canadian armed forces. Since it is still being suggested that there is lack of such equipment, I will, with the permission of the house, place on Hansard a list showing deliveries of principal items that we have been called upon to supply. I doubt if anyone who reads this list will be further concerned about shortages of clothing.
Purchases and Deliveries of Clothing and Personal Equipment
Commodity	Quantity	Quantity	Militia-	Unit	ordered	delivered	BalanceBattle dress blouses	547,501)	457,176	110,324Battle dress trousers	552,500	440,034	112,466Blankets 	1,241,365	865.605	375,760Belts, waist, leather	144.300	114,937	29.363Braces 	428,100	312,780	115.320Boots, ankle	923,300	653,248	270,052Caps, F.S	469.840	384.782	85,058Caps, comforter	300.000	198,334	101,666Caps, winter	286,000	104,032	181,968Coats, great, drab	411,000	241,349	169,651Gloves, gauntlets	5.000	5,000	nilGloves, woollen	310.000	211,404	98,596Holdalls 	342,000	204,050	137,950Housewives 	455,000	273,161	181.839Jackets, khaki drill	
14873-18	REUSED EDITION	511,870	181,246	330,624
The Address-Mr. Howe

Militia-Con.
Jackets, sweater.
Kit bags	
Mitts, leather....
Purchases and Deliveries of Clothing and Personal Equipment-Concluded Commodity
Overalls,
Overalls,
blouses.
Shirts, cotton, khaki.
Shirts, flannel	
Shirts, service	
Trousers, service	
Underwear shirts, cotton	
Underwear drawers, cotton...
Underwear shirts, woollen	
Underwear drawers, woollen...
Royal Canadian Air Force-
Blankets	
Boots, ankle, leather	
Braces	
Caps, blue, F,S	
Caps, winter	
Caps, comforter	
Coats, great, warm	
Gloves, black, leather	
Jackets, serge, blue	
Jackets, sweater	
Kit bags	
Mitts, winter	
Overalls, combinations	
Shirts, flannel, S. G	
Collars, flannel, S. G	
Shirts, service	
Trousers, khaki drill	
Trousers, serge blue	
Trousers, service	
Underwear, combinations, eumn Underwear, shirts, woollen.... Underwear, drawers, woollen..
Naval Services

Bags, kit	
Blankets, seaman's	
Boots, sea, rubber	
Boots, half	
Caps, white, duck	
Caps, blue cloth	
Caps, winter	
Oases, attache	
Coats, duffel	
Coats, sheepskin	
Coats, waterproof	
Drawers, woollen	
Drawers, summer	
Gloves, woollen, leather	
Hammocks-slung and unslung.
Jerseys	
Jumpers, serge	
Jumpers, duck	
Mdtts; leather	
Oilskin clothingcoats	
jackets	
trousers	
sou'westers	
Overalls, suits, blue	
Overcoats, uniform	
Rubbers, low	
Shirts, white	
Shoes, black, leather	
Socks, thick and thin	
Shorts, drill-recreational	
Stockings, thick	
Trousers, duck	
Trousers, serge	
Vests, flannel	
Vests, woollen	

Unit	Quantity- ordered	Quantity delivered	Balance361,000	293,652	67,348369,500	229,667	139,833prs.	210.000	154,491	55.509prs.	30.140	35,348	3.792230,000	206,106	23,894prs.	260,000	228,552	31.448pns.	227,000	40,775	186,225prs.	89,000	36,400	52,600246,000	218.463	27.5371,120,900	490,367	630,533343,000	339.405	3,595prs.	1,805.120	1,239,875	565,245prs.	608,500	183,424	425,076prs.	190.998	144.800	46,198327,500	327,500	nilprs.	327.500	327,500	nil783,600	658,114	125,486prs.	783,600	652,143	131,456prs.	224,381	170,298	54,083prs.	116,500	109,319	7.181prs.	110,000	110,000	nil119.000	91,599	27,40187,000	65,000	22.000115,000	102,500	12,50979,000	76,779	2.221prs.	154,000	99,640	54.360121,000	98.400	22,600125.000	119,858	5,14260.000	60,000	nilprs.	79,000	61,301	17,600prs.	121,000	62,090	58,910203,000	149.118	53,882609,000	452,097	156.903200,000	166,944	33.056prs.	75,000	2,566	72,434prs.	1,19,000	119,000	nilprs.	230.000	204.891	25,109prs.	44.000	44,000	nil238,000	235,254	2,746prs.	238,000	231,656	6,34416,100	9,882	6,218prs.	32,425	20.623	11,802prs.	6.400	4.000	2,400prs.	36,900	32.507	4,39314,000	14,000	nil22.300	21,388	91212,700	8,000	4.70016,600	11,800	4.8002.725	1,419	1.3063,490	465	3.0253.300	2,500	800prs.	35.300	30.100	5,200prs.	24.400	15,000	9,400prs.	11,692	10,642	1,05028.400	14.402	13.99866.650	46,250	20,40030,300	12.317	17.98329,500	19,006	10,494prs.	19,700	19,700	nil14,700	10,800	3,9008,650	6.250	2.400prs.	8,650	6,250	2,4008,650	6,250	2,400prs.	18,000	8,080	9.92019,040	9.915	9,125prs.	16,100	16.100	nil20,970	16.970	4,000prs.	16,700	15,575	1.125prs.	83,882	69,565	14.317prs.	37,800	28,760	9.040prs.	47,960	20,848	16.112prs.	27,400	13.546	13.S54prs.	30.300	13,348	16.95253,600	40,698	13,00211,600	10,240	1,360
The Address-Mr. Howe
In the woollen industry there are 62 mills making military cloths and blankets on contracts received directly from the government. Present production on these orders is estimated at 60 per cent of the capacity of the woollen weaving industry.
In the cotton industry, there are 23 mills working on orders received directly from the suppliers, and orders received directly from the Canadian government and British government.
Khaki drills Nos. 1 and 3, which are the cloths that we order in the largest quantities, are taking about 80 per cent of the mills' production of this type.
Let us refer now to the government-owned companies. As you have been informed on previous occasions, various wholly-owned government companies have been incorporated, the shares of which are held by the Minister of Munitions and Supply. All of these companies are subject to treasury control, and the Auditor General of Canada is the auditor of each one.
The reasons for the formation of these companies were:
1.	The opportunity it gave of getting men of known organizing, construction and production ability to assist us in our war effort.
2.	The opportunity it gave of decentralizing, with all the attending advantages that accrue from decentralization in an operation such as this.
3.	It has been proven that the corporate method of administration has been successful in the management of industries, and business men understand such administration.
There are eight of these companies. As an example, I might mention Allied War Supplies Corporation. This company has seventeen projects under its supervision and administration, with a total investment of 8100,000,000, which will require 175,000 horse-power to operate, and has at this moment 13,684 men engaged either in construction or in operation. One of these projects is now in operation. The second one will be in operation in a few days. The president of this company, in his latest monthly report, informs me that he is building an organization which will carry out these projects with the greatest efficiency, and that every effort is being made to see that these projects come into operation with the utmost speed.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is that the one of which Mr. Crabtree is president?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.
Citadel Merchandising Company Limited has continued to anticipate and facilitate requirements for acquisition and production of machine tools urgently needed for the munitions and gun programme, and I believe 14873-18}
that the various contractors who have come in contact with his company will agree that it has rendered valuable service to them. This company has supervised all orders placed by the Department of Munitions and Supply which require machine tools, machinery, and equipment of all descriptions for the production of war orders.


Mr. MacNICOL:: I might interject that I have heard a good deal of complaint about that company interfering with present industries.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The export of machine tools from the United States is under rigid control, and it is only by centring orders from private manufacturers on the war programme through that company and clearing the export licences with Washington that we have been able to prevent the entire industry from falling into chaos.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have reference to Canadian companies being interfered with.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, that is a matter of
opinion. We do think that that company has increased the Canadian production of tools very materially. It purchases, or supervises and finances the purchase of, machine tools. It procures export licences for equipment purchased in the United States, and performs engineering services for various plants, and as well, has been responsible for the procurement of machine tools for well over 125 projects. The company has purchased [DOT]machinery and machine tools aggregating some $37,000,000.
We also have three manufacturing companies :
Research Enterprises Limited, which is a new industry in Canada. This company, with the assistance of the national research council, is to manufacture optical glass and a number of special precision instruments. The plant is in course of construction.
Federal Aircraft Limited, as .the name suggests, will supervise the production of certain aircraft required for the joint air training plan.
Small Arms Limited, as the name implies, will be producing small arms. It might be of interest to comment that since the British have reviewed our small arms programme, they have asked us to increase this plant fourfold for their account.
Then there are the commodity companies: Plateau Company Limited, Melbourne Merchandising Limited, and Fairmont Company Limited.
By way of illustration, Fairmont Company Limited has purchased large stacks of rubber, under agreement with our rubber manufacturers and with the rubber controller of
The Address-Mr. Howe

the United Kingdom. It is essential that we preserve a stock of rubber in this country. Hon. members will appreciate that rubber is essential for modern mechanized transport, of which large quantities are required; the source of supply is several thousand miles from Canada, and the producing territory is in a part of the world that cannot be regarded as immune from enemy attack. I think it will be agreed that rubber can be classified as a strategic material. Other essential commodities, imported from countries in war areas, are being protected similarly.
These commodity companies operate on a self-sustaining basis, the cost of operating being added to the selling price of the product.
Speaking of the control of industry, one of the obligations imposed upon the Minister of Munitions and Supply is to examine into, organize, mobilize and conserve the resources of Canada contributory to munitions of war, and the sources of their supply; to explore, estimate and provide for the fulfilment of the needs, present and prospective, of the government and community in respect thereto; and to take steps to mobilize, conserve and coordinate all economic and industrial facilities in respect of munitions of war and supplies and defence projects.
To assist in the carrying out of these responsibilities six controllers have been appointed, as follows:
Timber-H. R. MacMillan Steel-H. D. Scully Oil-G. R. Cottrelle Metals-G. C. Bateman Machine Tools-T. Arnold Power-H. J. Symington
These controllers are, in effect, general managers of the respective industries over which they exercise control. The powers which have been vested in them are set out in the respective orders in council under which they were appointed and are necessarily comprehensive in character. The principle of control of industry under war conditions is generally accepted as reasonable and necessary, and is actually in effect under the wartime prices and trade board as well as under the Department of Munitions and Supply.
I should like to advise the house what the various controllers who have been appointed have actually accomplished since their appointment.
The oil controller first of all addressed himself to the problem of ascertaining the exact position of the petroleum industry in Canada, with a view to assuring an adequate supply of petroleum products for military purposes, and also to determine the productive capacity of Canadian sources of supply, which are largely confined to the province of Alberta. In this latter connection I am 
pleased to say that the oil controller has succeeded in determining within reasonable limits the productive capacity of the known and proven oil resources in the Alberta district, and has made arrangements for the provision of storage capacity so as to permit of more economical production in the existing fields. The investigations made by the oil controller indicated that the requirements of the three prairie provinces could not be met by the productive capacity of the present producing field, and prorating of the available crude from this source became necessary.
The oil controller has issued two orders: the first designed to curtail the installation of additional service stations and gasoline pumps, so that material and labour would be available for other purposes, it being felt that those service stations and gasoline pumps in existence at the time the order was issued would be sufficient to meet normal requirements of the public, and that no further extension of such facilities would be justified.
The oil controller also deemed it expedient to prohibit the sale or distribution of oil for the fueling of boilers, furnaces or other oilconsuming equipment not so fuelled at the date of the second order. This order did not apply to users of four thousand gallons of oil or less per annum, and was made as part of a plan to conserve the resources of Canada for war purposes.
I am pleased to say that the oil controller has been in touch with the governments of most of the provinces, and will shortly make contact with those not already approached, and they have all expressed their willingness to cooperate to the fullest possible extent.
The metals controller's chief concern has been to prevent any shortage of metals and industrial minerals required in the war-time manufacturing programme. Amongst other things he has arranged, as metals controller, for the curtailment of the use of aluminum for domestic purposes, so as to release as large a proportion as possible of this essential metal for military purposes. In cooperation with the power controller an arrangement was speedily made, without difficulty or complaint, for the substitution of copper for aluminum conductors by hydro-electric power companies in Canada, thereby releasing a very substantial quantity of aluminum for war purposes.
The metals controller has also arranged for the supply of a number of essential metals and industrial minerals.
The duties of the timber controller have been to assist the British timber controller in securing supplies in Canada, and to organize and administer the Canadian timber trade to

The Address-Mr. Howe
meet war-time demands. The timber controller took steps to assist Great Britain in the purchase of aeroplane spruce, box shooks, pit props, birch logs and lumber. In meeting Canadian timber problems, the following principles were followed by the timber controller :
To secure the Canadian government's timber requirements, at lower cost wherever possible, and without increasing the general Canadian price level. Steps to accomplish this were:
(a)	Rewrite specifications so that goods were
not purchased above the grade necessary. This was done for the large building programme of the joint air training plan, the militia training centres, and other building projects at government cost, and also for many wooden articles for the defence departments.	_
(b)	Have all deliveries to government building projects inspected at irregular intervals, during course of construction, by competent lumber inspectors, to protect the government against improper deliveries as to quantity and quality. This practice has produced valuable results.
-(c) The necessary dry lumber for the entire government building programme, over 150 million feet, was purchased before the building programme was announced. The principles adopted were:
(i)	The price level fixed was that in effect in June, 1940, before the government came heavily into the market. The situation was discussed with representative lumber manufacturers throughout Canada, nearly all of whom agreed that the government should not be penalized for creating a new market.
(ii)	Except in emergencies lumber should be purchased only from the manufacturers and owners of large stocks and at wholesale prices. All such persons should enjoy equal' opportunities.
(iii)	Transportation costs should be avoided by using up all stocks available at competitive prices in the region of the building projects before bringing lumber in from more distant points.
(iv)	All lumber should be dry so as to produce serviceable weatherproof permanent buildings.
The steel controller, immediately upon his appointment, made a complete statistical inquiry into the productive capacity of the steel industry in Canada, with a view to measuring against such capacity the steel requirements for war purposes, based upon war contracts already placed or in contemplation. It has been found that the Canadian capacity is short of meeting the requirements in certain directions, and steps have been
taken to alleviate this shortage, through internal organization in the mills and the provision of new production capacity, as well as by curtailing the use of steel for both military and commercial purposes, in cases where substitute materials can readily be used. The extensive gun programme which has been undertaken, requiring the use of special alloy steels, has caused the steel controller to recommend the provision, of additional alloy steel capacity and, upon his recommendation, such provision is being made. As a result of the efforts of the steel controller, steel prices have been maintained.
The power controller, immediately upon his appointment, undertook a study of the power capacities and power loads in the various provinces and sections of provinces and the forecast of a'll probable loads in 1941-42. Such studies were made in collaboration with the Hydro-Electric Power Commission of Ontario and the Public Service Commission of the province of Quebec, both of which bodies have special control powers within their respective provinces, and with the power companies throughout the Dominion of Canada. One of the results of these studies was that a substantial reduction in peak power capacity would be made if daylight saving time were extended in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, such reductions being estimated at 114,000 horse-power in Ontario and 75,000 horse-power in Quebec. After consultation with the appropriate authorities in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, and with their consent and concurrence, the power controller recommended to the minister that steps be taken to extend daylight saving time in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec by order in council, which action has been taken.
The power controller is keeping the government constantly advised of prospective power demands, in relation to power supply, and is cooperating with a view to obtaining the most effective use of available supplies.
Machine tools controller. Machine tool requirements, to permit of the effective consummation of the large munitions and gun programme which has been undertaken, are very large and greatly exceed the Canadian capacity to produce such machine tools. It was accordingly considered desirable and necessary that the available machine tool capacity in the Dominion of Canada be primarily directed to war purposes and, therefore, a machine tools controller was appointed with appropriate powers to control the machine tool industry in Canada. The machine tools controller has already taken steps to bring about the more effective use
The Address-Mr. Howe

of machine tools in presently existing manufacturing plants not engaged in the production of munitions of war, and to cause machine tools available in non-essential services to be made available for use in essential services.
On the recommendation of the machine tools controller action has been taken to prohibit, except under licence, the manufacture of new models of any type of appliance or equipment which, directly or indirectly, involve in their manufacturing processes the use of any machine tools, dies, jigs, gauges, moulds, patterns or templates. The purposes * of this action is to augment the supply of tools essential to the war effort, and at the same time to provide sufficient skilled and trained men for our rapidly expanding war industries. The " new model " order covers vehicles, railway rolling stock, bicycles, refrigerators, cooking and heating equipment, sewing and washing machines, radio sets, vacuum cleaners, humidifiers, typewriters, glass and other containers, and virtually all appliances and equipment in use in Canada. Existing models in current use in Canada will thus be "frozen." No changes will be permitted except for good and sufficient reasons, and then only under permit from the machine tools controller, who may authorize minor changes or betterments in existing designs which do not involve too great a use of machine tools or skilled labour.
By thus avoiding the economic wastage of machines and men, which mere whims, fads and fancies of fashion often produce, the ingenuity of a number of skilled artisans and highly trained men will be directed toward the work of winning the war.
My hon. friend the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation party has objected to the type of restriction being imposed by these controllers. I share his desire that this might be a comfortable war in which farmers, labour and our citizens generally might better their scale of living and industry prosper. Unfortunately, it is not that kind of war, provided we wish to throw our whole effort into it. It seems to me that the demands of this war must bear down on every citizen in Canada, to a much greater extent than in the last war. I have no doubt whatever that added restrictions must be imposed as time goes on. The appointment of controllers is an insurance that such restrictions will be applied intelligently, with a maximum benefit to the war effort and a minimum disturbance to our daily life. It is the duty of each controller to get the best out of the industry for which he is responsible. Much has been accomplished in this direction already and much more will be required.
tMr. Howe.]
Before closing, I should perhaps reply to some of the points that have been raised in the debate affecting the Department of Munitions and Supply. The visit of Sir Walter Layton has been mentioned. Sir Walter came to the United States in connection with the work of the British ministry of supply in that country. He paid a visit to Canada, which was very helpful to the work of the ministry of munitions and supply, in that we were able to discuss with him the present and prospective requirements of the British ministry of supply in this country, and the degree of urgency with which each item was required. A secret memorandum was left with myself bearing on this subject, which is being followed in planning our production programme. Sir Walter is still in the United States, where I have had occasion to consult with him by personal visit or by telephone. I can think of nothing mysterious about his contact with my department.
There has also been an inquiry about the war-time requirements board, membership of which is made up of:
H. R. MacMillan (chairman)
Dr. W. C. Clark
Graham F. Towers
Dr. Bryce M. Stewart
R. A. C. Henry
Major-General L. R. LaFRche
Colonel G. S. Currie
Lieutenant-Colonel K. S. Maclachlan
H. G. Colebrooke
Mr. Carl Goldenberg (secretary).
This board was appointed on Friday last, the 15th instant, which explains why the Prime Minister had no knowledge of it when the question was asked.
The purpose of the board is to plan the most productive and direct use for war purposes of available supplies of materials, power, manufacturing plant, and facilities, and transportation facilities, in order to ensure that war needs, in the order of their importance, shall have priority over all other needs, and that there shall be a minimum of disturbance to Canadian export trade in particular and Canadian economy in general. The members of the board hold key positions in the war effort, and by conferring together will be able to coordinate all available information in the departments of government that they represent, and recommend such action as may be necessary to anticipate bottlenecks in production.
The leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation party mentioned the location of the Winnipeg cordite plant. In order to remove all mystery from this transaction, I will read a letter, dated November 14, 1940,

The Address-Mr. Howe
addressed to myself, from Mr. Harold Crabtree, president of Allied War Supplies Corporation, which corporation is responsible for the location of the plant. The letter is as follows:
Dear Mr. Howe:
Referring to our interview of yesterday afternoon in which the site for the Winnipeg cordite plant was discussed, two sites were considered for this plant-one on the south side of the main C.N.R. tracks, and the second north of the main line of the C.N.R. which could be served by both the C.P.R. and the C.N.R.
The two sites were equally suitable from the construction point of view, but the north site was approximately two miles farther from the aqueduct, and would require a longer pipeline to take water to the plant. The cost of this extension to the water line was estimated by Defence Industries Limited at about $50,000 to $60,000, and while it was considered desirable to have the plant served by both railways I did not feel that we were justified in going to this expense.
The Canadian Pacific Railway were anxious to serve this plant and offered to absorb the additional cost. Considering the advantages of having it accessible to both lines and the fact that the sites were equally suitable in other respects, a decision was reached to use the north site.
A further point bearing on this matter was that the city of Winnipeg stipulated that the plant, buildings and premises should not be located nearer to the aqueduct of the district than one mile, and it is doubtful if this would have been possible in respect of the site to the south side of the C.N.R. tracks.


Major James William Coldwell: Did not the city of Winnipeg, through its mayor, say that the south side was preferable?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot say as to that. But after all, when we are buying a site I think we have to make our own decision on that point. I wish to point out only that the suggestion was made that the government had gone to great additional expense to use the site more remote from the aqueduct.


Major James William Coldwell: Apparently the minister learned this only a day or two ago.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I did not know at the time. I found that out.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Was not this decision made by Mr. Crabtree and the board of directors?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Independent of the company.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. I am reading the letter of Mr. Crabtree now. I did not have the explanation until I asked for it. I hope I have given the information required.
I think that my hon. friend will admit that this letter gives good and sufficient reason for the choice of the location finally adopted.
I would urge that all hon. members obtain the full facts of any transaction before spreading rumour that may lack foundation. I shall always be glad to answer promptly any reasonable question that is placed on the order paper. I shall also be glad to give full particulars of any individual transaction. If there is any irregularity, there is no one more desirous of being informed about it than I am myself. A number of alleged irregularities have been called to my attention, and so far all of them have proven to be without foundation.
I commend that particularly to the attention of the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) who insinuated last night- in fact, he not only insinuated but made the direct statement-that prices had been obtained, held and disclosed to a contractor . beforehand.
In the report that I have given to hon. members, only the secondary industries have been mentioned. It has, of course, been necessary to step up production in our primary industries. The balance between primary and secondary industries is constantly under study, and, as a result of these studies, we have considerably expanded the production of steel, alloys and certain metals. The production of aluminum has been more than doubled since the outbreak of war, and new production is now being undertaken to meet the needs of 1943. I think that provision has been made to keep our production reasonably in balance. Our bureau of economics is proving most valuable in helping us to maintain this balance.
We have enjoyed splendid cooperation from industry and labour. Margins of profit have been maintained at levels much lower than in peace time. I feel confident that there will be no new millionaires emerging from this war. In my efforts to prevent undue profits on the part of industry, I have the enthusiastic cooperation of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) and the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Gibson). Organized labour has cooperated in extending working hours and in bringing incipient labour disputes to arbitration.
I might interject at this point that we have received extraordinary cooperation from organized labour. Almost every week union leaders have written in and have asked if certain actions on their part would be beneficial. If we are in a position to write back to the effect that such actions would be beneficial to the war effort, I believe there
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has been no instance in which such action has not been taken by the organization affected.
There has been as little profiteering on the part of labour as on the part of capital. There seems to be a general appreciation that an increase in wages and the cost of living, and consequent increased cost of production, will in the long run be harmful, and that a balance between wages and the cost of living can best be maintained by seeking stability in both.
The next eight months will witness a rapid expansion of employment and constantly increasing industrial activity. At the end of that period Canada should be producing the practical maximum of war materials of which Canada is capable. The next eight months will be a testing time for the morale of the Canadian people. I have no doubt that our industry, and our men and women, will justify our confidence in the productive capacity of this great dominion.


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, I had not intended taking part in the debate this afternoon. However the treatises which have been read in the house in the past two days leads me to the belief that the government of the day looks on the House of Commons as the family vault, the doors of which are to be opened only once in a while. Last year on January 25 the doors were opened, and closed immediately upon the calling of an election. The vault opened again on May 16, and closed on August 7. At this time it has again been opened, and we have been privileged to hear the last wills and testaments of many cabinet ministers.
While I do not wish to be critical of any of them, there are some observations I should like to make. I know the ministers are working hard. The one who has just completed his speech has done a great deal of work in connection with the re-arming of Canada and the general cleaning up of the situation. For such work he deserves a great deal of credit. My point is this, that if the forty minute rule, which you, Mr. Speaker, so fairly interpreted the other day, is not to apply to ministers we might as well adopt the practice at Washington where members of congress simply hand in, without reading them, pamphlets running to three and four hundred pages, and they are printed in the record.
I think I was the victim who perhaps led to the adoption of the forty minute rule. Away back when a great many members now here were not in this house, four or five notorious bills came up. One was the Sun Life bill, which the privy council declared illegal. Another was the Bell Telephone bill, to cut a melon of $75,000,000 at the expense

of the taxpayers of Ontario. Another bill proposed to give away all the power in the Ottawa valley to the Sifton interests, and another was the Beauhamois bill. I opposed all these bills and they were talked out by the opposition on this side of the house, and our action saved the country hundreds of millions of dollars. The old rule was good enough from confederation down to the time when the rules were amended. It was hardly ever abused.
The first point I want to make here today is this: Why have we not national government in this country, a government representative of all the people? This is just a Liberal war. We come here and hear these statements read by one minister after the other, seeking to soothe the people into a false sense of security when we are not secure. I did not wait until the war broke out to preach rearmament. I preached it right along from the opposition benches during the whole time I was a member of the house. The more we have of these speeches by the ministers the more we realize that the government believe the pen is mightier than the sword. That was the view the isolationists took in the United States and the pacifists in Great Britain, and this government evidently believes in that same doctrine. When war broke out the British government sent six million leaflets to be dropped over Germany, thinking that by propaganda they could convert the German people to the British government's view, and the third day after war was declared ten million leaflets were dropped over Germany. They believed then that the pen was mightier than the sword. What the people of this country want to know is whether we are secure or not, instead of having all these speeches. Security is better than opulence. We know we are not secure.
I believe there is a call to-day for national government in Canada. I think it would be in the interests of the government itself and in the interests of our war effort. In a real democracy the opposition necessarily shares responsibility with the government. It is the alternative government.
Some hon. gentlemen opposite criticized the hon. member for Hastings-Peterborough (Mr. White), but that gentleman has already shown his zeal in this war by wearing the king's uniform and serving as a company commander training the young recruits. The House of Commons is the only place where a soldier or a citizen can have his grievance remedied or where the man on the

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street can learn what the facts are and what are the policies of the government and those who oppose it.
The Minister of Munitions and Supply is a very able minister with a fine record in private business. I think I have known him as long as anybody in the house. He is a sincere and hard-working man. I knew him as an engineer when I was chairman of the Toronto harbour board, and I have been acquainted with the good work he has done. He has worked hard and well and I know his heart is in his work. I believe he has tried to do his duty. I do not know the whole story but I believe he has done his bit to the best of his ability, even though he supports the policies of the government and the way they administer the affairs of the country.
In Great Britain the Labour party under Mr. Lansbury opposed all measures of rearmament. From 1931 to 1935 the opposition was committed to pacifism, and pacifism was sweeping the country. In a by-election at East Fulham, in 1933, the issue was the pacifist issue, and the "peace and disarmament" candidate, Mr. J. C. Wilmot, turned a Conservative majority of 14,521 into a Labour majority of 4,840. Mr. Baldwin, commenting in 1936 with appalling candour on this colossal turnover, said:
Now supposing I had gone to the country (in 1935) and had said "Germany is rearming; we must rearm." Does anyone think that this pacific democracy of ours would have rallied to that cry? Not at that moment. I cannot think of anything which would have made the loss of the election, from my point of view, more certain.
Mr. Lansbury had long been the head of the Labour party, and you all know his pacifism-"not a dollar, not a man," and all that kind of thing. Then he lost the leadership of the party and Mr. Bevin and Mr. Morrison and Sir Stafford Cripps came to the forefront. Then there was the peace ballot in Great Britain and the general strike, the Independent Labour party under Mr. Keir Hardie, and the socialist league, all warning the government in no circumstances to go to war. Sir Stafford Cripps was a pure pacifist. In 1933, at Bristol, he said:
I think we ought to warn the government that in no circumstances will we go to war. There is only one way in which we can make that threat effective, and that is to call a general strike.
Last but not least there was the League of Nations Union, which has done more damage and done more to cause this war than almost any other agency.
What do we find to-day? We find the British government has formed a cabinet of all
parties and taken in a lot of pacifists. Mr. Herbert Morrison is a very energetic Minister of Supply, whose work is universally admitted to have been very valuable. He and Mr. Bevin have been more successful than any preceding minister in pursuading trade unionists to suspend their regulations and in securing an increased output of munitions. Nevertheless, until he was admitted to the ranks of the ministry, Mr. Morrison in the London county council, for instance, or its committees under his direction, abolished the celebration of empire day in the schools, decided not to sanction the maintenance of cadet corps or officers' training corps, refused to assist in military pageants or tattooes, declined the use of the schools for purposes of recruiting or drill, withdrew grants for scholarships to enable boys to become officers in the Royal Navy, denied permission to children in schools to attend lectures on the navy, banned in 1936 circulation in the schools of Earl Beatty's empire day message. Mr. Morrison himself said at Islington on March 22, 1935:
The Labour majority had to take into account that a large number of parents, and a growing body of public opinion, had a deep objection to the military training of the young.
The League of Nations Union was started in 1920 as a non-party organization to make the work of the league known and win popular support for it, but it gradually passed under the control of pacifists, cranks, socialists, cosmopolitans, with the result that from 1931 onward it became increasingly anti-government, deprecated recruiting, took a leading part in organizing the peace ballot of 1934-35, changed the mind of the Baldwin-MacDonald government and led the dictators to believe no matter what they did Britain would be neutral.
My point is this. Notwithstanding that France, when war broke out, had a socialist government, the United States a new deal government, Great Britain a Conservative government, and Canada a Liberal government; and notwithstanding the fact that in all these countries isolationism, pacifism and all that sort of thing had held sway for years, the British government stopped all that in Great Britain by forming a national government representative of all parties that rearmed after Munich and since the war united the nation. I am a strong supporter of the trade unionist movement and always have been, but I believe the government of the day in Great Britain did the right thing with respect to the trade unionists by calling in all parties -labour element and opposition, many of whom had helped cause the war-in order to present a united front to the enemy.
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Why does not this government do the same thing? That is the first point I raise in this debate. Why does not this government take the same action that the British government took, instead of having in office in Canada a purely Liberal party government run on party lines? Let us rather have a government representative of all the people from Halifax to Vancouver and put politics in cold storage until after the war. Such a government would have the united and loyal support of the whole country.
Secondly, I would ask where are we now in this war? We have now had almost fifteen months of war. We have seen Hitler capture, by diplomacy and fraud and the ferocity of his attacks, practically the whole of Europe except Russia and two little islands at the edge of Europe-Great Britain and Ireland. Where are we now? Are we secure? Are we secure enough? No, we are not. We are not going to be able to fight Hitler by books and pamphlets and orders in council and the reading of treatises and all that kind of thing. The defence of Canada will never be decided at Vancouver or Quebec or Halifax or Saint John; it is going to be decided in the battle of Britain. The battle of Britain is now on in the Mediterranean and other fronts, and if they fail over there all our home defence is at an end, and so is that of the United States.
I am very much dissatisfied in a great many ways with the work the government has done. First, they have given the House of Commons no information. I referred to that in 1938 and 1939 and in the two sessions this year. Mr. Chamberlain said in 1938 and 1939 that if the people are not given the facts, if they are given only so much as their rulers allow them to know, they are embarked on a course which is fraught with grave consequences for the future. That was proven to be true. Criticism is a tonic. It is good for the individual, it is good for the government. It stirs governments to action. If the criticism is founded on fact and not based on partisan objects it can do nothing but help; it can save the government from many pitfalls and mistakes, grave perils and dangers.
Now, the criticism regarding this war effort is justified. The opposition has a responsibility to the soldier and to the country to perform its duty when information is lacking. In such statements as we have had during the last three or four days there is a lack of information. There is also too much Hollywood ballyhoo about our publicity. In my opinion the bureau of public information should be wiped out altogether-it has been a centre of mischief ever since it was started- and the press instead should be given this

responsibility and these functions. How does it come about that to a very large extent only United States citizens-some of them newspaper correspondents-have been chosen to do this work? The bureau has a broadcast which they call " Facing the Facts." They are not facts at all. A great many of them are only half-truths. The speakers deal largely with opinions and are in the realm of doubt all the time. They forget all about Britain that has given the United States all the peace it has had so far.
In a democracy the opposition shares responsibility with the government. Its business is to criticize the government's policy, and if its views make a popular appeal the government is generally compelled to make revisions, by concessions, compromises, and so forth. Reading the handwriting on the wall often saves a government from its own friends.
The collapse of France was caused because the people were not given the facts, but were kept in the dark. But for the isolationism of Canada, long before the war began the dominions would have been invited to participate in a war plan. Canada should have been delighted to do so, but Canada was lukewarm and drifted. Canada was one of the chief objectors and isolationists before the war. At the outbreak of the war she was not prepared. As in 1812, she had to depend on Britain, on land and sea and in the air, for defence.
What the House of Commons and the people want to get is real information and the real picture. The picture which the minister has just disclosed is a very rosy one, but you cannot fight Hitler by explaining what you are going to do in 1943, 1944 and 1945. The government's attitude reminds me of the United States, where congress was shocked by the chairman of the war committee, Mr. Wiliam Knudsen, when he said that it would be 1944 before the United States could mobilize, train and equip an army or get a proper rearmament programme. We are in the same position.
In debate on March 24, 1938, when the government of the day put up member after member from Quebec and other centres to tell the country that not a dollar was to be spent ex-terri'torially, when the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) said we would never send another expeditionary force overseas, that the danger to Canada was minor in degree and secondary in origin, and all that kind of thing, I took the position that we should have a survey made of all the large and small plants in Canada and that there should be a national register and national service. About the time of the Ethiopian campaign, in 1936 and 1937, I proposed an

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air scheme linked up with the Department of Labour, whereby the young people from our schools and high schools who were out of work and looking for jobs could enter the aeroplane industry, learn a trade, learn something about air training, take some drill, receive pocket money, food, clothing and lodging, so that at the end of from three to five years they would be available either as pilots or in those branches of industry which are now doing from coast to coast the key work which the minister has so ably set forth.
What the country wants to know is when we shall have deliveries of shells and bombers and aeroplanes and aeroplane engines and guns and rifles,

all that sort of thing. I have seen soldiers out on parade along the streets, and they have not got any of this equipment. In the debate last year I put forward the constructive idea that Canada should find a way of making possible the impossible. In other words, where there are no barracks or implements of war we should do as we did before, namely, take other public buildings. If men have no uniforms, let them train without uniforms. If they have no rifles, machine guns or other modern implements of warfare, then they should do what has been done in France and Great Britain, namely use dummies until the real weapons can be obtained. Instead of allowing these men to drift around with nothing to do, they should be given the proper training immediately. Toronto is the main recruiting district in Canada, and I do not know what is going to be done there, or elsewhere. The men want to get overseas. This is not the way to fight Hitler. The government should wake up. We shall never beat Hitler and win this war if we go on the way we are going now. As I said in 1938, it takes two years to train a man, and two years to get munitions, and then six months afterwards for the soldier to learn how to use the armaments with which he is then provided.
As I have said, France fell because she was denied the simple truth about the way things were going. After all the items of news which we have had, I doubt if we could produce a white book or paper about our relations with the continent and with the United States or with Britain since the war began. I have seen nothing of the kind. The house has not been given the facts. Sir Robert Borden used to say that when he had a secret he wanted to keep he should tell it to his cabinet. When the present Prime Minister has a secret he wants to keep, he seems to tell it to a do-nothing Canada-United States defence committee, or to fifty United States
newspaper editors who come over here and then go back to their own country and publish these secrets in United States newspapers, over the head of the House of Commons, the members of which do not know the secrets, and over the heads of the people who have the right to know what is going on and how their money is -being spent. The dictators knew all these so-called secrets long ago.
The revelations of the strength and skill of the German army and the way they smashed through the low countries and Scandinavia have shocked this country and awakened the United States. But where are we now? In the olden days battles lasted only a day or two. With the increase of population and the advent of mechanized equipment, battles nowadays go on for one, two, three and four years. Germany to-day is headed by a chancellor whom the people worship and idolize. We thought that he could be easily defeated and that, for that reason, war would never come. But what has actually happened? In the last great war Germany kept the whole civilized world at bay for four and a half years, notwithstanding that at that time we had on our side Italy, Russia, the United States and Japan. Now Italy and Japan at any rate are against us-one is fighting against us and the other is a potential enemy-all on account of the appeasement policy that had been pursued. We have lost Japan, our old and faithful ally who looked after the Pacific, Australia, New Zealand and the empire in the east. She was driven out of the Anglo-Japanese alliance to appease America. The same with Italy. These two countries should never have gone against us. It was a fatal mistake to lose two old friends and loyal allies.
You cannot beat Hitler with any tower of babel such as we have, as represented in so many agencies including our information bureau, the typewriter and quires of foolscap, and the radio, and government by order in council. History is being gloriously rewritten by our men on land and sea and in the air and we should see to it that they are given proper equipment. Let me refer the house to the stirring words of Mr. Churchill, after the collapse of France, on the duty to inform the public and tell them the truth, no matter how bad.
During this time of w,ar great powers are entrusted to executive governments. Nevertheless we exercise them under the constant supervision of parliament and with a wide measure of free debate. We have a stern and resolute House of Commons which is not likely at all to flag or weaken in the conflict upon which we entered unanimously. And I do not doubt that it is the House of Commons which will
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Mr. Church

not hesitate if emergency requires it to approve and enforce all measures necessary for the safety of the state.
During the last 250 years the British parliament has fought several great and long European wars with unwearied zeal and tenacity, and carried them all to a successful conclusion. In this war they are fighting not only for themselves but for parliamentary institutions wherever they have been set up. In our country public men are proud to be the servants of the people. They would be ashamed to be their masters. The ministers of the crown feel themselves strengthened by having at their side this House of Commons and House of Lords, sitting with great regularity and active as a continual stimulus to their activities.
Of course it is quite true that there is often severe criticism of the government in the two houses. We do not resent well-meant criticism from any man who wishes to win the war; we do not even shrink from unfair criticism, though that is most dangerous. On the contrary, we take it constantly to heart and seek to profit by it.
Criticism in the body politic is like pain in the human body. It is unpleasant, but where would the body be without it? No health or sensibility would be possible without the continued correctives and warnings of pain.
It is in this fear of criticism that the nazi and bolshevik dictators run their greatest risk. They silence all criticism by the concentration camp, the rubber truncheon or the firing party. The men at the top must very often be fed only with facts which are palatable to them. Scandals, corruption and shortcomings are not exposed, because there are no independent voices. Instead of being exposed, they continue to fester behind the pompous frontage of the state.
The men at the top may be very fierce and powerful, but their ears are deaf. Their fingers are numb. They cannot feel their feet as they move forward in the fog and darkness of the immeasurable and the unknown.
One of the things that this war is going to prove is whether in modern times the full strength of nations can be realized under totalitarian systems working through an ogpu or a gestapo.
I believe the time has come when the press censorship in Canada should be abolished entirely and we should go back to the good old British system, leaving the responsibility for censorship as largely as possible to the voluntary effort of the press. This is what Britain is doing. There are one or two press censors there who supervise things but the press is left largely alone. In my opinion it would be far better for the Canadian people, and it would make for the dissemination of more reliable information, if that policy were followed in this country. After all, the press has certain duties to the public. It is the medium through which the government of the day can impart information to the people, and I submit that it should not be trammelled, but should be let tell the truth. Truth is [DOT]the first victim of this war, and self-respect is the victim of neutrality.

In my opinion the National Resources Mobilization Act should be repealed altogether. It has proved a failure. If the same amount of money that has been expended under it had been devoted to a voluntary system of recruiting there would be nearly one million men under arms in Canada to-day instead of the comparatively small force which we have under this complicated and useless method, headed by civilians who know nothing of war. The system now in force has been weighed in the balance and found wanting. It is headed by civilians and there is altogether too much red tape, delay and cumbersome procedure about it. They seem to think that we can fight Hitler in that way, but they will have a rude awakening. In the last war we did not have so many ministers directing our defences as we have to-day. We have good men for militia, air, and the navy. At the present time there is no system of check and balance and in consequence there is continuous friction among the services, and waste and duplication. The system should be abolished and we should go back ,to the old method. There is something of the Alice in Wonderland way in the conducting of our war effort. They seem to think that what they have done is simply wonderful, but it is not getting men over to fight Hitler and help in the battle of Britain.
May I say a word now with regard to the Rowell commission-I say Rowell commission because in my opinion it should be so designated. Chief Justice Rowell was the original chairman of the commission, and the other members have not the learning and ability or the wide knowledge of constitutional questions, or the judgment, that the original chairman had. However, the question I should like to ask is this: Why is the report of the commission to be considered at this stage? The report was relegated to the archives last session-earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust, in sure hope that it would not be resurrected. Why is it being revived now in the darkest hour of the war? Why not postpone consideration of it until after the war? It is a red herring dragged across the track now to hinder our war effort.
It seems to me that the report of the Rowell commission does not tackle the main question that confronts the people of Canada to-day, namely, overgovernment and overtaxation. We should never have had any provincial legislatures; they are duplicate municipal systems. They were created by the fathers of confederation for political and not for economic purposes. We want a British North America Act for the living and not for the dead. The report, I repeat, does not

The Address-Mr. Church
deal with the main, question as to the elimination of provincial legislatures. If the provisions of the report are adopted it will simply mean that the province of Ontario will become the hewer of wood and the drawer of water for the rest of the confederation.
We have four ministers from the province of Ontario and not one of them is in the house this afternoon. We have heard from a young minister representing an Ontario constituency. He spoke yesterday. I have not the pleasure of his acquaintance, though I have no doubt he is very much respected in the maritime provinces. He now represents the city of Kingston in this house. I would impress upon these ministers representing the province of Ontario that the province is being overtaxed, and is the forgotten province of confederation. Under the Municipal Assistance Act the province of Quebec has been given many concessions in relief legislation and votes. Many institutions have been provided, parks and sidewalks and other purely municipal services, out of federal funds, while Ontario has received nothing, and no such favours in relief votes. It seems to me that the report, while undoubtedly satisfactory from the point of view of the prairie provinces, will shake the very foundations of confederation if it is carried into effect. From the very start I have strenuously opposed the way in which the dominion and provinces have encroached upon the rights of the municipalities and robbed them of their revenues. Federal power now is at its lowest ebb since confederation. One has only to mention income tax. There are some good features in the report, but I submit that it can be laid over until after the war is won, because if Hitler wins it will not matter whether the report is adopted or not. After the war the wreckage will be so great there will be nothing to salvage in Canada.
There are many matters that one might discuss in this debate. It seems to me that the time has come when we should get rid of the dummy for the nazi ventriloquist, the Petain French embassy in Canada. A great British newspaper said recently:
We publish a note of Lord Milner's on the war crisis of March, 1918. In it will be seen how Marshal Petain had to be pushed and pulled along by Clemenceau and Foch, and in the latter's war book it is described how, later in 1918, Petain proposed surrender. It does not appear that he actually used the word at Doullens in the presence of the British, but speaking to the French he predicted the surrender of Marshal Haig within a month of the Doullens gathering.	Surrender would
appear to be part of his make-up. Another side of his character is seen in his seeking to throw blame on others.	He and General
Weygand were in charge of the French army until 1935, for Marshal Petain was inspector-general of the French military forces from 1922 to 1931, and he was war minister in 1934. General Weygand was the head of the French general staff, that is head of the army, from 1931 to 1935. These generals, therefore, must not take the line that they have no responsibility for French military plans and training or for the failure of both. Between them they had control from the vital year 1922 to 1935, the lessons of modern mechanization had been learned by others. General de Gaulle published his great book, Vers VArmes de Metier, in 1934. General Weygand and Marshal Petain paid no attention to it, but Hitler reorganized his whole army in accordance with its precepts, and his generals derived their plans for the battle of France very largely from the principles there laid down. One more point. In his radio apologia to the French for his surrender to Germany, Marshal Petain said that France had too few allies and too few children. The marshal's treatment of French allies will certainly not add to the number of those seeking "alliance with France, and in regard to too few children, Marshal Petain himself only married when he was sixty-four and has none at all. He probably forgot this when he spoke, as indeed he now forgets everything. Most of his day is spent asleep, and while his interlocutors are actually talking to him he forgets who they are and asks their names. A perfect tool for the enemies of his country; a piteous end for a brave soldier.
I am sorry for the great tragedy to glorious France, our immortal ally of old. I am sorry for the way in which Petain acted; he was a great general. I am very sorry for the glorious French people because we all recognize their bravery, devotion and love of freedom. They are now under the heel of the invader and with the cold of winter coming on we see the result of their work. We should close up the Petain mission and like England recognize the French provincial government.
We should also have some understanding regarding some of the other nations.
When Mr. Churchill speaks in the House of Commons he is listened to by the wide world. One reason why he stands above others is that he has no "ghost" or anonymous helper writing out his utterances for him, as is the case with so many public men in other countries. Mr. Churchill's speeches are his own, and they rank high in the annals of British oratory, like the one in which he told the House of Commons two or three weeks ago:
It has come to us to stand alone at the breach and face the worst that the tyrant's might and enmity can do. Bearing ourselves humbly before God, but conscious that we serve an unfolding purpose, we are ready to defend our native land against the invasion by which it is threatened. We are fighting by ourselves alone. But we are not fighting for ourselves alone . . .
The Address-Mr. Church


Mr. W. F. RICKARD (Durham):: Mr. Speaker, after having listened to this debate for the past several days I feel it my duty, as the representative of a rural constituency, to say a few words with regard to the problem which we face in Ontario, and more particularly in that part of the province from which I come.
Before doing so, however, I should like to congratulate the mover and the seconder of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. Both these hon. gentlemen did credit to themselves as well as to the constituencies they represent. I should like also to add a word of appreciation for the clear manner in

The Address-Mr. Rickard
which the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) presented Canada's war effort to this house and told us what would be expected of us as Canadians. I should like also to congratulate the various ministers who have spoken, upon the way in which they have handled the situation and the work they have done. They have shown that they know their jobs and understand what it is all about. To my mind they have presented to the house and to the country a clear picture of what is being done in connection with our part in this war.
Some criticism has come from the press and other sources because the government has not divulged all the secrets of this war effort. Those of us who read the Globe and Mail are perhaps more familiar with these statements, because there from time to time we have seen comments that nothing has been done, that we have not been told half the story, and so on. I am one of those who believe that agitations of this kind do more harm than good as far as our war effort is concerned. We all know that certain matters cannot be made public. We also know that the empire is engaged in a mortal struggle, and we are convinced that we are fighting for the right. Because of this the Canadian people are prepared to make unlimited sacrifices. What is more, they want to do anything they can to help win this war. Victory will come only after a long, bitter struggle, and there will be a time and place for all to help.
My purpose in taking part in this debate is not particularly to discuss Canada's war effort, which already has been debated at some length, but rather to give this house in my humble way some idea of the conditions facing the man on the land in this province of Ontario. The other evening the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) lamented the condition of the western wheat grower. He criticized some portions of the government's policy, and offered certain suggestions which he thought would remedy the situation as far as the west was concerned. But he did not give the government any praise for anything the government had done in connection with markets, which I thought he might have done if he had desired to be fair.


Ernest Edward Perley: Tell us what they have done.


Wilbert Franklin (Frank) Rickard: Just a moment. As a
farmer I know I have received more for my produce since this government came to office than I received under the previous government. After 1930 I well remember selling hogs for 3i cents a pound and less, and cattle at 4 and 41 cents a pound; cheese
went down to 10 cents a pound, and so on.
I am not arguing that we are getting enough for our produce to-day, but I do say that since this government came into power and made a trade treaty with the United States, which permitted us to ship our surplus cattle to that market, many thousands of dollars have been placed in the pockets of the Canadian farmers. More than that, I believe that same trade treaty has had a good effect in bringing about a closer relationship between Canada and the United States which is proving veiy helpful as far as our war effort is concerned.
To-day governments, both provincial and federal, are spending thousands of dollars in trying to educate our young men and women to stay on the farms. Only recently, there were held in every province of the dominion judging competitions, the winners of which were given free trips to Ottawa in order to see the highlights of this capital city; they were here only a week or so ago. Boys from Durham county won two dominionwide contests, in seed judging and potato judging, and were only six points from winning a third. Ours was the only county in the country ro win two prizes. But now, after we have done a great deal to keep our young people on the farms, industry comes along and takes every available man. It seems to be well recognized that farm boys make the very best men in industry; of course they are good men anywhere. As I say, I am not arguing that the farmer is getting his fair share, or that the prices of the commodities which he has to sell are nearly high enough, but I do say that we are better off now than we were under the previous administration.
There is no class of people under the sun more willing to do what they can for Canada's war effort than the farmers. Wherever possible they have contributed to the war loans. Without complaint they have allowed their sons to leave the farms for their thirty-day training. They and their wives and families have interested themselves in the work of the Red Cross and other organizations which will help win this war, but they expect a fair and decent return for their labour, just as industry, just as the business man and just as the labouring man expect a fair return.
That brings me to the labour problem, which is a very important question in Ontario. With present prices of farm commodities it is impossible for the farmers to compete with industry as far as wages are concerned. I am not opposed to labour getting everything it can, because I believe that labour has been kept down too long.
The Address-Mr. Rickard

But to-day hundreds of farmers in Ontario are leaving their farms and going to work in the shops because in two weeks they can earn more money there than they can make on a farm in three or four months. Perhaps we have overproduced. It is said that we have a surplus of eight hundred million bushels of wheat; we have been persuading Great Britain to take more of our pork, and we may have too much butter for home consumption. I should like, however, to sound a warning. I believe that if the war continues for another two or three years we may find that we have not enough of these commodities to meet the demand.
As I said before, many farmers are leaving the land to work in the factories. Many others told me they were just going to plough what land they could sow, take off and sell the crop and let the rest go. Other farmers to my knowledge are getting up early in the morning, doing their chores before daylight, driving to town and working in factories all day, then coming back and doing their chores again at night. In my opinion this sort of thing cannot continue. If anything can be done for the farmer in Ontario or in any other part of eastern Canada, or for the farmer in western Canada, it should be done now, before our whole system is upset.
In his speech delivered a few days ago the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) told us what we could sell to Great Britain in the coming year, and described in detail the agreement between Great Britain and Canada. He said that we may sell wheat and dairy products. In the latter group we must include cheese, and of that commodity we are to sell all we can produce, at a price of 14.4 cents a pound to the producer. We are to sell bacon and other cured meats, canned and fresh fish, poultry, eggs, canned fruits and vegetables-but practically no fresh fruits. As a fruit grower it is natural that I should be disappointed in Great Britain's decision not to take our apples. If, however, that decision has been made, we shall have to make the best of our home market.
Great Britain is willing to take some $12,000,000 worth of fish from the maritime provinces, and with that provision I am pleased. As farmers we are not satisfied with the price of bacon set by the British government, but if it is a price which permits the fanner to know exactly *what he is going to get the year round, the situation may not be too bad. To-day the farmer in Ontario should receive at least $8.50 per hundredweight, live weight, at his bam, if he is going to get any return on his expenditure. The price of

farm produce to-day is altogether too low, when compared with what the farmer has to pay. All kinds of implements of production have increased in price. Lumber, building materials, wire fencing, hardware of all kinds, boots and shoes and practically all the necessities of life have advanced in price at least to some degree. Some have not advanced very much, but have done so sufficiently to make the difference between profit and loss to the farmer. Hundreds of farmers are to-day making only a bare living on the land, and every assistance is necessary if they are to keep going, and do their best to help in Canada's war effort.
I do impress upon the government the necessity of seriously considering the condition in which the farmers of eastern Canada as well as those in the west find themselves. Let us all try to work together, and do something to help the farmer in his war effort. Let us work toward the building of a greater Canada.
On motion of Mr. Ilsley the debate was adjourned.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, November 21, 1940.