[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. WILLIAM HAYHURST (Vegreville):: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day are called I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) as to tariff board reference No/ 99, with respect to vegetable oils, and the correspondence set out in the votes and proceedings of May 23, 1939. Has the government put forward any further suggestions to the United Kingdom government with regard to implementing the recommendation of the tariff board, in accordance with the concluding paragraph of the letter of May 17 from Sir Thomas Inskip, Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs?
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance):	The government has not put
forward any further suggestions to the United Kingdom government. In view of the fact that the report of the tariff board recommends a specific form of treatment of the matter, of course it would require action by this parliament. It is difficult to work out within a short space of time anything which would take the place of that suggested action, and at the same time be likely, in view of the reply of the United Kingdom, to meet with their concurrence. The matter is under consideration.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. H. A. STEWART (Leeds):: Mr. Speaker, does the government expect to introduce any legislation based upon reports of committees now before the house? Two of them, those of the civil service superannuation committee and the civil service committee, might involve legislation.


Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: I cannot answer the hon.
member's question at the present time, but I shall probably be able to do so later in the day.



SALT FISH BOARD


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. E. MICHAUD (Minister of Fisheries) moved the third reading of Bill No. 130, to provide for the constitution of a salt fish board.
Motion agreed to, and bill read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minisister of Justice) moved the second reading of Bill No. 92, respecting official secrets.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
On section 1-Short title.
Mr. HEAPS:: I suggest that we have an explanation from the minister. He did not speak on the motion for second reading, and I assume he would have no objection to making an explanation now.


Ernest Lapointe: This bill is merely a consolidation of two English acts dealing with the same matter. The first of those, The Official Secrets Act of 1911, applied to Canada. As a result of experiences during the war it was deemed advisable by the British parliament to amend that act considerably, and those amendments were made in 1920. The act of 1911 was amended in many particulars. The latest measure provided expressly that the provisions should not be enforced in Canada; so that if our law were permitted to remain as it is at present we should be operating under the old Official Secrets Act

Official Secrets
of 1911, which in certain respects is obsolete and does not meet present conditions. Of course under the statute of Westminster we make it entirely a Canadian statute. The 1911 act which applied to Canada is repealed and replaced by this bill which combines the two acts in force in the United Kingdom. There is no difference except that they are made applicable to Canada and Canadian conditions.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I think every hon. member of the committee will approve of the principle embodied in this proposed legislation. In times such as the present, every nation has the right to protect itself. The bill deals with acts of espionage or attempts to damage public works in Canada. Hon. members cannot be anything but wholeheartedly in favour of such a measure; but there are aspects of the matter which naturally come to mind when we are dealing with espionage and other acts of the kind which may be committed in times such as these. The whole world is in a state of turmoil, and Canada is not entirely free from the activities of those who may some day be potential enemies. I have no doubt that the proposal now before us is aimed at certain forces which are within our borders. It may be well to understand how certain potential enemies who are in our midst happen to be here and why they are prepared to do damage to this dominion.
On more than one occasion hon. members have risen in their places to refer to certain forces in Canada which are a danger to the ' best interests of the dominion. Unfortunately these forces are quite numerous. I believe in the principle of freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. I should be one of the last to infringe upon those rights, but we have to-day in Canada certain forces of nazism and fascism which, as I said a moment ago, are a danger to the state. If the doctrines they are preaching were preached entirely in the open, I should have no objection. I think a man has a perfect right to preach any doctrine he likes, so long as he does not advocate force. But the teachings of nazism are based not upon the force of law but upon force itself. Those who preach these doctrines are attempting to spread dissension and hatred throughout Canada, with resulting danger to the peace of the country.
This type of propaganda is being spread throughout the dominion and apparently up to the present there has been no check upon it. I repeat that. I have no objection to people advocating a particular doctrine so long as they do not advocate force; but this is something entirely different. When a man
becomes a naturalized citizen of Canada he takes an oath of allegiance to the crown. The people to whom I refer are not merely exercising the right of freedom of speech. There are naturalized Germans in Canada to-day who owe allegiance not to Canada but to the country of their origin. It is a question whether they are truly Canadians or whether they owe allegiance to some foreign power. It is a question whether in a case of emergency their allegiance would not be to the country of their origin.
Some few years ago the late Mr. Jacobs, the former member for Cartier, brought to the attention of the Minister of Justice certain articles which were being disseminated by the German consul in the city of Montreal. The record will show that the Minister of Justice disapproved of such activities being carried on through a consular agent of a foreign country. In spite of the rebuke which was then administered by the Minister of Justice to the German consul, certain activities are still being carried on by German agents in this country which I believe are inimical to the best interests of the dominion. First of all I shall deal with certain activities of the German consul in Montreal, which I consider to be of a type intended to be covered by this bill.
I should like to quote from an article which appeared in the New York Post of Tuesday, December 20, 1938. It was written by Leon G. Turrou, a former member of the federal bureau of investigation of the United States, more commonly known as the G-men. Evidently this man left the service of the federal bureau of investigation and wrote a series of articles of which this was one. I believe the government of the United States subsequently intervened and publication of the articles was discontinued. The article shows how closely the espionage services in the United States are linked up with those carried on in Canada. It reads:
That night Griebl took him-
That is Turrou.
-to his summer home in the Peekskill mountains of Westchester county. Lonkowski (with several aliases, air ministry, Berlin-indicted on June 17th/38 by a federal grand jury in New York on charges on conspiring to steal military codes and confidential information concerning the armed forces, ships and aircraft of the United States) hid out there a couple of days. Then Griebl supplied him with his own car and a driver. The driver was Ulrich Haussman, a German pilot during the world war, who was in this country ostensibly as a reporter for a German aviation magazine.
Haussman drove Lonkowski to Montreal, Canada, where they enlisted the aid of the German consul.

Official Secrets

I ask the minister to note this.
A German freighter was in port at Montreal, waiting for a cargo. The German consul at Montreal had Lonkowski smuggled on board the freighter, where he was given the treatment of a hero, and safely guarded until the ship sailed.
In other words, a German consul in Canada was aiding and abetting the escape of a fugitive of justice from the United States in order that he might get back to the country of his origin, Germany. That is what I claim -that the German consuls in this country are really a part of the nazi espionage organization in Canada. When, as stated in this article written by a member of the federal bureau of investigation in the United States, a German consul aids and abets a fugitive from justice to escape from the United States and puts him on board a freighter in the port of Montreal, he is going far beyond the privileges conferred upon foreign consuls in the Dominion of Canada. Doctor Griebl escaped from the United States and went back to Germany without any formalities, yet he was head of the nazi espionage ring in the United States. I quote further from the article:
Doctor Griebl denied any direct spy dealings with the Canadian base. So I confronted him with the records of his telephone calls for the last three years. They showed a number of calls to the nazi spy chief at Montreal.
"Oh, that," said Griebl. "I'll tell you what that was. This man in Montreal is a stamp collector. I am a stamp collector, too. I called him about stamps."
Then I confronted him with proof that he had at least twice sent money-$75 once and $50 another time-to the spy in Montreal.
"That," said Griebl, "was for stamps I bought from him."


Ernest Lapointe: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to put any obstacle in the way of my hon. friend, but what he is reading is certainly not relevant to the bill. This is a bill to prevent spying and to inflict penalties on persons who are trying to betray official secrets. The propaganda of which my hon. friend is speaking is of an entirely different order. I did not want to stop him, but I do want to give him a little warning that he should not go too far astray.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I do not think I am going far astray, Mr. Chairman, because I am dealing directly with espionage, which is what this bill deals with. What I am pointing out is that a former member of the federal bureau of investigation in the United States, commonly called the G-men, shows in this article, which was published under his own name in one of the large daily papers of the United States, how Montreal was linked up with espionage

plans in the United States, and since this bill deals with espionage, I think my remarks are very closely allied to its subject matter. I have no desire to go too far astray, because I can deal directly with nazi propaganda in this country on the estimates of the Minister of Justice; but in this particular instance I have quoted from the article to show that espionage is actually being carried on within, a couple of hours' ride from the city of Ottawa, and I think it is carried on pretty generally across Canada.
I think I have quoted sufficiently from the article to show how the espionage ring in the United States, which until a few months ago was headed by Doctor Griebl, who later escaped to Germany, was linked up with the German consular office in the city of Montreal. This is not the first time that we have had German consulates in this country attempting to do things of that kind. Many other instances are given in this same article. The writer shows how in Montreal they had men who were performing the tasks which this bill is designed to deal with, and personally I feel that the bill in some respects does not go far enough. If the minister has no objection I shall read just a little more, because it has a direct bearing upon the subject matter of this bill and indicates how far espionage has already crept into the life of this country. In an article dated December 22 this same gentleman says:
It was that night that Pfeiffer (Kapitan-GieutenanC Doctor Erich Pfeiffer, head of the * Bremen office of the Marine Nachriehten Stelle and m charge of all espionage on the North and South American continents-indicated on June 17, 1938, by a federal grand jury in New York on charges of conspiring to steal military codes and confidential information concerning the armed forces, ships and aircraft of the United States) and Griebl (Doctor Ignatz Griebl, leading nazi spy in North America- indicted on June 17, 1938, by a federal grand jury in New York on charges of conspiring to steal military codes and confidential information concerning the armed forces, ships and aircraft of the United States) discussed the four main spy bases set up in America and the need of setting up more. The four already in operation were m New York, Seattle, Newport News Virginia; and Montreal, Canada.
Montreal is linked up here again with the spy activities of the nazis in Canada. It goes on:
We knew the name and address of the man who was in charge of the Montreal base, which covered all of Canada and part of the New England states.


Ernest Lapointe: What is my hon. friend reading from?


Abraham Albert Heaps: I am quoting from an article written by Leon G. Turrou, who was a member of the federal bureau of investigation

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of the United States, commonly called the G-men. This item appeared in the New York Post of December 22 last. He is giving his own experience with the nazi spy movement in the United States. He continues:
We turned that over to MI-5 of the British military intelligence and I didn't want to interfere with their investigation.
A British special agent, Guy Liddell, came here to complete that phase of the_ spy ring investigation. He conferred with Major Joseph N. Dalton of G-2 United States military intelligence and myself at New York, then he went out on his own. The spy chief at Montreal was employed in an aircraft designing plant.
This is something which might be taken into consideration by the minister and the government. It goes on:
Every now and then he shipped three to five rolls of film to Germany, each roll containing 36 negatives of confidential plane designs. He also stole and copied airplane blueprints and shipped them to Germany; in addition he acted as clearing agent for all nazi spies activities in Canada.
I have quoted sufficient from this article in the New York Post to show beyond a shadow of a doubt, assuming that the writer is correct, and I believe he was speaking the truth, that there is a nazi spy ring which so far as Canada is concerned operates with its headquarters in the city of Montreal. I do not know how much information the government has on this particular aspect of the question, nor do I intend to ask the minister to inform the house. But this article from which I have quoted was written by a man who knew the inside facts, and he has given them to the world through the press. So there is no harm in putting them on Hansard in order that members who have not seen the article may get some idea of what is being done in Canada at the present time to inform foreign powers with respect to all our activities.
The measure before us was no doubt designed to put a stop, so far as it can, to such activities; but how far it will go no one can say. I do hope, however, that the matters which I have just drawn to the attention of the government will in themselves be a sufficient incentive for them to go ahead and root out wherever they possibly can the men who are carrying on this kind of espionage in this country.
There is just one other matter to which I shall refer only briefly, because it can be raised on the estimates of the Department of Justice. It is the question of nazi propaganda in Canada, whereby an incentive is offered to certain men to carry out activities as foreign agents which but for this kind of propaganda they probably would not be in a position to do. That is all I shall say at the 71492-297J	'
moment, but I may have more to say with regard to nazi activities generally throughout this dominion when the estimates of the Minister of Justice are before the house.


Ernest Lapointe: I suppose my hon. friend is expecting some answer.


Abraham Albert Heaps: No.


Ernest Lapointe: Very well.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Unless the minister has anything to add, after what I have said.


Ernest Lapointe: No. I
will just repeat that the government is keeping itself well informed as to what is going on in the field which my hon. friend has indicated. My own conviction is that as regards nazi or fascist or communist activities in Canada, I am happy to say, neither the genuine imported articles nor their spurious local imitations are in any sense a serious political factor in any part of Canada. Of course since the war this new technique of international propaganda has been a rather disagreeable feature of political life in all countries; it has become an established routine of various governments and organizations to endeavour to stir up class and racial prejudice abroad as a means of carrying out their own political views; and in times of difficulty and depression, such as the one which the world has gone through, these seeds may be more dangerous, being sown on some fertile soil. Without mentioning anybody, I may say that on some occasions the government has reminded agents or representatives of foreign governments that their duties do not include a proprietary interest in the activities of naturalized Canadian citizens who may have been once nationals of their countries.
May I say that ninety-five per cent of our foreign population are opposed to the views which some people are trying to instil into them; they are loyal to the Canada to which they have come to establish themselves and their families; and it would be a mistake as well as gross unfairness to attribute to all the former nationals of certain countries the views which some propagandists are trying to spread in Canada.
I repeat that, despite a certain amount of flamboyant advertising, anti-democratic movements within Canada have not made any headway. I hope that Canadian common sense will always be an obstacle to their making the headway they would like to make.
We believe in the necessity and utility of freedom of speech and in the vigilant preservation of the institutions which make it possible. We cannot, preserve democracy by
Official Secrets

throwing away the freedom of discussion which is the essential and indispensable basis of free government. But I add this, that no theory of free speech confers any right on foreign agencies which have betrayed it to claim its protection for their efforts to intervene in our affairs for their own ends.
f think that is all I need say at this stage. If my hon. friend raises the question at another stage I shall be pleased to add something.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I am obliged to the Minister of Justice for the statement he has just made. I purposely refrained from going into this question of the other form of activity because I .thought it might just as well be brought up when we discuss the estimates of the Department of Justice. I agree very largely, almost entirely, with what has been said by the Minister of Justice, except that I do not think that under present circumstances I can altogether agree with his reference to the disruptive forces of nazism, fascism and communism. I know a good deal about these three forces; but it seems to me that in these days, when Russia is expected to come to the rescue of some of the other democratic nations, when she is to become part of the anti-aggression bloc, we should not lump together those three influences in so far as the question of peace or war is concerned; for we recognize to-day the totalitarian states as being a menace to the peace of the world.


Ernest Lapointe: I am afraid I shall keep on disagreeing with my hon. friend. Whatever military pacts are entered into in European countries. I shall abhor communism as such as much as the other two.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
. On section 2-Interpretation.
Ernest Lapointe: That paragraph (a) of section 2 be struck out and the following substituted therefor: fa) Any reference to His Majesty means His Majesty in right of Canada or of any province.
Tnat is in order to make it clear; and it will apply all over the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Ernest Lapointe: There is another amendment:
That subparagraph (iii) of paragraph (i) of section (2) of the said bill be amended by striking out the words "an enemy" in the .'Cird and 34th lines on page two of the said bill and substituting therefor the words "a foreign power."
(n time of peace there is no enemy.
(Mr. E. Lapointe.]


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
Sections 3, 4 and 5 agreed to.
On section 6-Interfering with officers of the police or members of His Majesty's forces.
Ernest Lapointe: This is a very small amendment:
That section 6 be amended by striking out the word "or" in the first line thereof and by substituting therefor the word "of."
It is a clerical error.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
Sections 7 to 9 inclusive agreed to.
On section 10-Power to arrest without warrant.
Ernest Lapointe: The word "or'' before the word "having" in line 34 should be struck out and the word "of" substituted. I move that amendment.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
Section 11 agreed to.
On section 12-Prosecution only with consent of Attorney General.
Mr. REID:: Could not speedier action be taken? Under section 11 authority is given the justice of the peace to issue a search warrant to a constable. The constable, searches the house and if he believes that the person against whom the warrant is issued is guilty of a crime under the act he must wait until authority is granted by the Attorney General of Canada. I suggest that he should be able to act more expeditiously.


Ernest Lapointe: The
proviso covers that point:
Provided that a person charged with such an offence may be arrested, or a warrant for his arrest may 'be issued and executed and any such person may be remanded in custody or on bail, notwithstanding that the consent of the attorney general to the institution of a prosecution for the offence has not been obtained.
The accused will be kept in custody until proceedings are effectively instituted.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 13 agreed to.
On section 14-Penalties.
Mr. MASSEY:: Do the penalties in other countries include death?

Official Secrets


Ernest Lapointe: Not for this kind of offence. In the English act the maximum penalty is fourteen years' imprisonment; the maximum in this bill has been set at seven years' hard labour. The reason is that some offences may not be so grave and should be dealt with summarily, whereas offences that imperil the safety of the state should be severely punished. The committee who have been in charge of the preparation of this legislation have discussed the question whether the penalty should be made still more severe, a longer term than seven years, but that was decided against because those who drafted the bill were of the opinion that a more severe prison term would not deter foreigners or spies engaged by foreign governments from carrying on their business but would serve to restrain only such persons as are spoken of as small fry, and that for them seven years would be adequate. All things considered, we have come to the conclusion that a term of seven years is sufficient.


Denton Massey: No mention is made of
deportation. Is there any other act which would require deportation of anyone who has been imprisoned for an offence under this act?


Ernest Lapointe: Under the criminal code he may be deported, and I can promise my hon. friend he will be.


Denton Massey: He will be an official guest of the state for seven years before we deport him.


Ernest Lapointe: He will not be a privileged guest.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Naturalized persons committing offences are not subject to deportation. I could mention a type of person, naturalized, who might commit offences under this act.


Ernest Lapointe: I am glad the hon. member has raised that question because it reminds me of something I omitted from the statement I made earlier. With regard to naturalized Canadians who actively spread objectionable propaganda, we have the right to cancel the naturalization certificate, and on behalf of the government I assure the committee that we are going to cancel the certificates of such persons. Moreover, they may take this statement of mine to-day as a warning. Of course, any naturalized British subject bringing himself within the provisions of this bill will certainly lose his certificate and be subject to deportation.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I am glad to have had that definite pronouncement from the Minister of Justice. Had I continued my remarks along a line not strictly relevant to the subject
matter of this bill I would have discussed the activities of naturalized citizens in our midst who carry on propaganda that is not in the best interests of Canada. Let me mention one instance openly and publicly- the editor of the Winnipeg Deutsche Zeitung. He came to this country about eight years ago and in his paper he publishes articles most derogatory to Britain and the British and Canada and Canadians. Naturalized 'a little over two years ago, he is able to speak only fair English, but in his paper there is; nothing but incitement to racial hatred and: the setting of creed against creed and race against race. He publishes nothing but propaganda in the interests of German nazism. His name is Botte, and perhaps the warning the minister has given this morning may have a salutary effect upon this class of people who have been openly carrying on such subversive propaganda during the last few years. They are the sort of people who would commit acts of violence against the state, and they take advantage of the fact that so far the government has not taken action against them. They take that as a sort of permission for them to continue in these activities. They seem to believe that the government acquiesces in what they have done. The statement made by' the minister may have a very wholesome effect on these people.


Mr. STIRLING:: In cases where naturalization has been revoked, does it follow of necessity that deportation is possible? In other words is it possible for Canada to deport to all countries of the world?


Ernest Lapointe: If the certificate is revoked and the individual concerned is convicted of an offence under this act or under the criminal code, surely the power of deportation exists. We can always send him back to the country whence he came. It may work harm to the man iB certain cases, but he would be the agent of his own trouble by offending against the laws of Canada.


Grote Stirling: I have no objection to that, but my thoughts go back to the trouble with certain Doukhobors eight years ago. Then deportation was not possible. That is why I asked the question, what are Canada's relations with all other countries in this regard? Is Russia in a unique position?


Ernest Lapointe: I think the Doukhobors came under a special agree ment and had special guarantees that do not apply to citizens of any other country.
Official Secrets


Mr. PELLETIER:: Generally I agree with 'what the Minister of Justice has just said, but I am sure all members of the committee realize the seriousness of the statement he has just made. He said people could take as a warning what he was saying a moment ago, that those guilty of objectionable propaganda might be liable to deportation and cancellation of their citizenship. "Objectionable propaganda" is a very wide term and embraces much contentious matter. There is a possibility of serious difficulty, in following out the policy the minister has just laid down, between ourselves and some foreign power which might claim that we are not putting the proper interpretation upon acts of individuals in this country. Therefore in all fairness to those whom he might have in mind I think he should define "objectionable propaganda" and thus give some protection to those who might see the light soon enough, if I may put it in that way, and change their attitude. The minister knows very well that propaganda can be along many lines-political, religious or racial. Some sort of definition or direction should be given in view of the seriousness of the statement the minister has just made. I say that not because I object in any way to the measures he intends to take; in fact I approve of them, but, realizing the consequences which might follow an act of that kind on the part of Canada against a national of another'country, I think it serious enough to merit consideration. We should have an explanation from the minister, however brief, to give those people an opportunity to change their minds.


Ernest Lapointe: This bill of course does not deal with propaganda of any kind. Any man who would come under the provisions of this bill need expect no mercy as regards deportation or anything of the kind. I referred to propaganda only with regard to certificates of naturalization. That is in the discretion of the Secretary of State. My hon. friend may be sure that the utmost care will be taken, but when the circumstances justify it I believe that the Secretary of State would be well advised in cancelling the certificate of naturalization of men who have come to this country claiming the advantage of British and Canadian citizenship and using their position to create ill feeling against either our institutions or our fellow subjects in Canada. That is what I had in mind when I used the term to which my hon. friend referred.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I mentioned "objectionable propaganda" because that was the term used by the minister himself.


Ernest Lapointe: That is what I had in mind.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Sometimes it is not possible to deport people who came from foreign countries, because as things are in Europe now a country may exist as an entity to-day and to-morrow may be part of another country. I have ih mind a limited number of people who came to Canada from Czechoslovakia. If it ever became necessary to deport one of them the Secretary of State would have a difficult job, because Czechoslovakia is no longer an independent country, it is part of Germany. All these circumstances require care. I feel secure in the hands of the Minister of Justice, knowing that he will use discretion along those lines. In view of present conditions in Europe it might be better to have democracies on wheels so that we could move them from place to place quickly. But until that time comes we shall have to exercise a good deal of care in the choice of the people we permit to come into Canada.


Grote Stirling: The group I referred to are not the only ones whose forebears came to Canada under a definite agreement. I can think of two other groups. If one of any of those groups commits an offence under this measure, perhaps he is naturalized, perhaps he is not, or perhaps his naturalization certificate has been revoked. Can the minister amplify his statement a little with regard to the possibility of deporting such a person?


Ernest Lapointe: I do not think I can add to what I have already stated. Any person deprived of his certificate of naturalization, who is convicted of an offence under the criminal code or under the statute would certainly be liable to deportation. But whether he will be deported is a question which will have to be considered.


Grote Stirling: It is a real difficulty.


Ernest Lapointe: A real difficulty. By what has taken place in Europe, in the last year especially, the difficulties have been increased a hundredfold. However, we shall do our best to protect the country and not do injustice to any person.


Denton Massey: It must be obvious to the minister, as a result of the rapidity with which this bill has passed through committee, that we are all heartily in accord with it. The point I raise now I do not raise as an objection, but it seems to me difficulty might arise in regard to what the minister has said as to the punishment of deportation consequent upon the cancellation of a naturalization certificate. Persons who went to the United

Official Secrets
Kingdom and became naturalized British subjects there have come to this country, and there are suspicions that they are operating here in contravention of the provisions of this measure. This man, the one I have particularly in mind, was naturalized in the United Kingdom and admitted to Canada as a British subject. How can Canada cancel his naturalization?


Ernest Lapointe: We have no power to cancel a certificate of naturalization issued by the British government. But we can, and we do, I think, occasionally make representations to the home office in Great Britain and they in their discretion act upon our representations.


Denton Massey: In that case would he be returned to the United Kingdom, who would take care of him from then on?


Abraham Albert Heaps: You can deport him to Great Britain.


Ernest Lapointe: Only if we succeed in obtaining the revocation of the certificate in Great Britain.


Abraham Albert Heaps: The minister would have
the right to deport to Great Britain under circumstances such as those described by the hon. member for Greenwood.


Ernest Lapointe: We have to cooperate with Great Britain.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Could we not deport such
a person to Great Britain?


Ernest Lapointe: If he
has not yet acquired Canadian domicile under the Immigration Act, we could deport him.


Denton Massey: But assuming that he has
acquired it


Ernest Lapointe: We have to cooperate with Great Britain, make representations and obtain revocation over there.


Denton Massey: The point I was trying
to make was this. Citizen A of Canada is domiciled legally in Canada under the Immigration Act, and was naturalized in the United Kingdom. He commits an offence under the measure now before us, and we consider him to be an undesirable. Then we must cooperate with Great Britain in regard to deportation. Do we deport him to the United Kingdom, or to his country of origin?


Ernest Lapointe: I must
admit I have not considered that question. But under the circumstances set out, Great Britain certainly would not hesitate to revoke the certificate of naturalization. My impression would be the man would be deportable
from this country. I should like to study the matter more carefully, however, before giving a definite decision.


Denton Massey: I have heard it said by
those in responsible positions that a favourite procedure is to send a certain national to the United Kingdom and have him naturalized there, so that he may become a British subject and thus gain free and easy entree to any country which is a member of the British commonwealth of nations. As a result the particular part of the empire in which that man may locate is embarrassed, due to the fact that he has been naturalized in Great Britain. I spoke with these facts in mind, because I understand that has been a favourite dodge in recent years, and has greatly embarrassed some of the dominions.


Ernest Lapointe: The
hon. member knows that such person must live here five years.


Denton Massey: But five years is a very
short time.


Mr. BAKER:: It should be ten years.


Denton Massey: Has the minister given
consideration to including in this bill provisions similar to those to which he has referred as at present in the criminal code, which provisions, as I understand it, do not quite fit in regard to this question? There seems to be some doubt in the minister's mind whether the provisions of the criminal code and the provisions of this measure completely answer the problem he has presented this morning.


Ernest Lapointe: It comes in under the Immigration Act, undoubtedly.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 15 agreed to.
Preamble agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice-for the Minister of Agriculture) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the senate to Bill No. 104, respecting stockyards, live stock and live stock products and hatcheries.
He said: An amendment was made to the title of the bill, so that instead of reading "stockyards, live stock and live stock products and hatcheries" it would read "stockyards,
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Guarantee of Securities
live stock and live stock products and poultry production." Then, at page 5 of the bill two paragraphs are transposed, but there is no change in the meaning.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, May 23, consideration in committee of Bill No. 93, to authorize the raising by way of loan of certain sums of money for the public service- Mr. Dunning-Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
Sections 1, 2 and 3 agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Transport) moved the second reading of Bill No. 85, respecting Canadian National Railways Financing and Guarantee Act, 1939.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Explain.


Mr. HOWE:: Perhaps the explanation should be given in committee. Every year a bill of this kind is passed to provide for borrowing money for capital expenditures on the Canadian National railway system.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
On section 1-Short title.
Abraham Albert Heaps: What does the minister
expect to pay for the new bonds that are to be issued ?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It depends entirely on the term of the bond. Bonds were sold recently-


Abraham Albert Heaps: They were short-term bonds.


Clarence Decatur Howe: 
Abraham Albert Heaps: Are these long or short-term bonds?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That will depend entirely on the judgment of the Minister of Finance as to what is the best market at the time the

bonds are issued. He seldom decides that in advance of the actual time of issue, but his practice recently has been to put out part short-time and part long-time bonds.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 to 7 inclusive agreed to.
On Section 8-Proceeds paid to credit of Minister of Finance in trust.
Denton Massey: Is there any change in this section from previous years?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is exactly the same as last year, but there is one slight change in an earlier section.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On the preamble.
René-Antoine Pelletier: We passed section 7 rather quickly. Is there a change in connection with temporary guarantees?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The temporary guarantee is just to assist at the time of actual financing. It may be issued to an underwriting firm but it is only a measure leading to a permanent guarantee, as is stated in the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Preamble agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice'-for the Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 87, respecting gold clause obligations.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
On section 1-Short title.
Ernest Lapointe: I suppose it is better that I should give an explanation of this bill. It is intended to amend the Gold Clauses Act of 1937, made necessary by a judgment of the privy council last year. When Canada and other countries went off the gold standard it was thought that Canadian debtors were protected against the resultant increase in the burden of their debts by the provisions which prohibited the export of gold and the melting down of gold coin, so that a failure to pay in gold coin would only be a technical breach of contract. However, the House of Lords held that all gold clauses must be construed as gold value

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clauses. That is, they were to be construed as imposing on the debtor the obligation to return in paper currency a sum which is equivalent to the value of the fixed quantity of gold in the open market. That is the doctrine which the House of Lords promulgated in certain cases, instances being Feist v. Societe Intereommimale Beige d'Electricite; the King v. International Trustee for the Protection of Bondholders Aktiengesellschaft, and New Brunswick Railway Company v. British and French Trust Corporation limited. This latter case is the one that specially interests us.
The Gold Clauses Act, 1937, was enacted to eliminate the extra burden thus imposed on Canadian debtors, and its constitutional basis was the jurisdiction of parliament in relation to the monetary system and, in particular, to head 20 of section 91 of the British North America Act, that is, legal tender. The act attacked the problem in two ways: first, by provisions concerning tender, and, second, by a public policy provision. In the New Brunswick case which I have mentioned, the validity1- of our clauses act was recognized, but certain statements were made by the judges which justify the amendment we now seek. They held, inter alia, first, that the question of tender was one for the lex fori, so that the tender provisions in the act only apply to actions in Canadian courts; and, second, that the provisions were not so worded as to enable a tender under them after an obligation had been repudiated, as the creditor's right was not then to enforce a contract but for damages for breach of contract.
This bill is for the purpose of remedying the objections which the House of Lords found in the act of 1937. It does not change the principle, nor does it change the act, except that it makes it more possible to resist a lawsuit in which the validity of the act may be attacked.


Mr. POULIOT:: I always listen with great interest to any explanation given by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) because he has a highly trained judicial mind. I want to take this opportunity to submit to the committee a most interesting article which appeared in the February, 1939, issue of Current History. It is entitled " Government by test tube," and deals with an idea put forth in Kansas to create a laboratory to consider the different laws which might be proposed. The subtitle reads:
Kansas' idea for a laboratory to try out its laws has caught on and has been copied by six states.
The article is by Fred C. Kelly. It is quite short, and I should like to read it. It reads:
How did Sam Wilson of Kansas persuade his native state to take the guesswork out of lawmaking?
How many states have followed the example of the Kansans?
Why did the Kansas- legislators reject what seemed to be a highly productive "top-tax" on beer?
What enabled the sunflower parliamentarians to go on vacation two months ahead of their envious Missouri neighbours, both starting
even?
Why can wonders in legal research be accomplished for only an annual $20,000?
These questions are answered in Mr. Kelly's article, which reads:
Several years ago, wiry, energetic Sam Wilson, manager of the Kansas State chamber of commerce, brought his fist down on his desk and addressed a little group of callers, "If an automobile company operated the way a state legislature does," declared Sam, "you'd see cars broken down all along the road; they'd put out a new-fangled engine without first making sure it would work. That's the way we now make a law-on guesses or opinions, with no facts. No one knows if it will work, or how-and yet law's are the things we live by-and sometimes they determine if we shall live at all. I say a proposed law- should be treated as scientifically as the materials they test in the bureau of standards."
Wilson set influential people thinking, the idea took hold, and in 1933 Kansas stepped out with a new device to take the guesswork out of law-making. So sensibly contrived was this device that it has since been copied in Illinois, Nebraska, Kentucky, Connecticut, Virginia and Michigan. The idea is being considered for the state of Washington. The Brookings Institution has recommended it for Iowa and Oklahoma. Mexico, Chile and other Latin-American countries have adopted it.
Obviously Kansas has "got something." It is simple enough, too. Called the legislative council, it consists of two well-coordinated parts: a group of regularly elected members of the state legislature who determine by contact with the public what new law-making is needed or demanded; and a permanent staff of independent research experts who study, without political bias, all previous human experience that might apply to an immediate problem. The elective part of the council consists of ten members of the senate, fifteen from the house, and the presiding officers of the two houses. No one locality has more than its proportionate share of members, and the political parties are represented in the same proportion as in the legislature. The research part of the council is headed up by the best legislative brains available. The council assumes no powers of the democratically elected legislature; it merely supplies factual knowledge by which the legislature may act intelligently. When the Kansas legislature passes a law it now knows not merely that the law is workable, but exactly how it will work.
Which is a great thing.
To understand that all this is really revolutionary, we must note what happens in most other states, where legislatures meet with no

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plan or program l'eady. Between legislative sessions-usually held every other year-pressing problems have accumulated. Hastily considered laws are jammed through as remedies, without much knowledge of their probable effect. Moreover, studies show that about half the members of an average legislature are serving for the first time. Assuming that at least three terms are necessary to gain a decent amount of experience. surprisingly few could meet that test. During the period of democratic supremacy in the Indiana house, from 1931-35, only five democrats had been in three previous sessions.


The CHAIRMAN:: I regret to interrupt the hon. member. I have been listening very carefully and I have been unable to get the connection between what he is reading and the bill before the committee.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will tell you, Mr. Chairman. This, of course, is a bill and it will become a part of the law of the land if adopted. Everyone guesses how it will work, but no one knows-which is altogether different. What I am reading now could be read about any piece of legislation. It shows what is done elsewhere, and I read it in order that we may have the advantage of knowing how things are done elsewhere. I did not speak on the second reading when the principle of the bill was discussed, and now I am discussing legislation at large, taking advantage of the committee stage of this bill to speak. For your information, Mr. Chairman, I may tell you that this is the last speech I shall make this session. I shall take only about ten minutes more. It seems to me we should take advantage of experience gained elsewhere.


Ernest Lapointe: Granted, granted.


Jean-François Pouliot: Thank you. The article continues:
In Iowa, a few sessions back, the opposition party (Democratic) included only one man who had served even two previous terms. Important committee chairmanships in most states must go to men of scant experience. The legislative procedure is necessarily amateurish.
Kansas feels that by means of its council, hit-or-miss methods have been largely eliminated. By having the law-making process practically continuous, instead of semi-annual and spasmodic, a sifting out of non-essentials is constantly going on. It is possible to concentrate on what is really important. Legislative members of the council decide what jobs the researchers should tackle; the experts then go ahead to gather and analyse the facts.
The council meets quarterly for two or three days. During this time any legislator, the governor or any ordinary citizen may make suggestions. Each proposal is referred to a special committee, though it may first have brief consideration by the whole council. The committee receiving it may promptly eliminate the project by an unfavourable report, but if , the idea has merit it is passed to the research staff for an analysis of the facts. By the time a quarterly meeting is over, the council has usually weeded out impractical proposals, or

impossible solutions to problems, and the experts are ready to devote further study to projects that give promise.
Through the council, the need for a law is quickly translated into the framing of a workable one. At one meeting, for example, a farmer reported that bindweed was damaging crops and asked for a law to check it. The research staff was asked to get the facts. Researchers soon found out just how the weed spreads; the percentage of farms infested; the costs of eradication by various methods. Having all the facts, the legislators had to decide only if they desired a law at all, and whether the campaign on the weed should be voluntary or compulsory. Thus they were able to come to a decision, and did, almost immediately.
Another simple example of substituting facts for guesses had to do with the "habitual criminal" act-requiring life imprisonment on conviction of a third penal offence. There had been many rumours of much injustice in the operation of the act-men locked up for life because of a series of relatively minor offences, and others escaping penalties for crimes much worse. Nearly every legislator had his theories but no one knew the facts. The research staff collected data on every prisoner in the state penitentiary. It was then possible to show how many had evaded the spirit of the law and how many might have been punished unjustly. Without such painstaking digging for facts no intelligent reconsideration of the existing law could have been made.
On another occasion, a legislator was insistently pushing a scheme to obtain more revenue by a higher tax on beer. No arguments moved him. But the research staff, with figures received from other states, showed conclusively that where the levy on beer was moderate, it provided more revenue than if the rates had been higher. Similar sets of figures promptly overcame theories long held in favour of a dozen other impractical means for raising more revenue.
All kinds of pet projects are quickly dropped when a sponsor learns that a similar idea was tried and discarded elsewhere years ago; or that hundreds of pages of research material available for study show most of the arguments to be on the other side. This clarifying of facts and prompt elimination of unwarranted proposals have saved much actual money and conserved a tremendous amount of time, enabling legislators to centre their attention on projects of genuine importance. In 1937, for example, the legislatures in Kansas and the neighbouring state of Missouri convened at about the same time and faced similar problems. The Kansas legislature finished two months ahead of that in Missouri.
Which means, Mr. Chairman, that if a similar proposal had been in force here we would have enjoyed the pleasure of being at home now for two months. It continues;
Within twenty-four hours after the opening of one Kansas session it was possible to take up any one of forty-two outstanding subjects on which all the fact-finding had already been done. There was no need for long committee hearings; every bit of information they could have produced was sent in a report to every member before he left home.
That is also very good.
In such complicated legislative jobs as a social security bill, a school bill and a state

C.N.R.-Guarantee o/ Securities
police bill, the preliminary work of the council advanced their consideration by at least two years.
Ordinarily the council does not recommend what laws should foe passed, though it sometimes does prepare bills in tentative form. It simply says to the legislature: "Here are the facts about questions almost sure to foe considered. You can now act as seems wise." By offering facts rather than mere opinions or theories-
Hear, hear.
-it has avoided most of the antagonisms that sometimes arise when so-called experts are called in.
Hear, hear.
Besides aiding the legislators, this work of the research unit serves to make knowledge of impending bills common property all over the state long before a law could be passed.
Hear, hear.
The research reports, summarized for easy reading, are sent not only to legislators but also to thousands of citizens who have asked for this service. Newspapers use them for editorial discussions. Legislators have a chance to learn from constituents what they think should foe done.
Hear, hear, and I can say that freely because I have not written the article.
Another result is that lobbyists and pressure groups are placed at a disadvantage, since both legislators and the public already have the facts on both sides.
Hear, hear, hear, hear!


Ernest Lapointe: Are the "hear hear's" in the article?


Jean-François Pouliot: Oh, no. That is my enthusiasm for a good and sound proposal.
Much of the success of a legislative council seems to depend on a wise choice of research director. At the head of the staff in Kansas is Frederick H. Guild, professor of political science at the university of Kansas at the time of his appointment, who had worked in the legislative field since his graduation from Brown university a quarter of a century ago. The director's chief assistant, Mr. Strain, was previously research director for the state chamber of commerce, and has taught political science. There are three other research assistants-young men selected for their academic training - besides stenographers, calculating machine operators, accountants and clerks, a total, except at peak loads, of less than a dozen. Considering the results already obtained, the research costs are low, only $20,000 a year, or less than is spent on research by scores of small business corporations.
Why, one asks, if a state council is a good idea, would it not also be desirable for the federal government? The answer is that it doubtless might be. Many congressional committees have large clerical staffs to enable them to perform important research work between sessions, but there is no central body to gather facts for legislation not foreseen by Congress.
The Kansas experiment has done much to minimize such mistakes as arise from remediable ignorance. It has created in the minds of both legislators and voters an unwillingness to decide policies without full knowledge.
Hear, hear.
Here perhaps may be the greatest benefit of all:


Frederick George Sanderson: Order. I should like to know from the hon. member how much longer he desires to read.


Jean-François Pouliot: Thirty seconds.


Ernest Lapointe: Granted.


Frederick George Sanderson: The hon. member knows, of course, that he is out of order.


Jean-François Pouliot: I have just one more sentence:
Here perhaps may be the greatest benefit of all: to know that facts are not to be established merely by following the latest rumour or by listening to political orators. Kansas has made a contribution to the success of the democratic idea by making a democracy more *workable. Law-making by something approaching scientific precision is a step forward. Probably a legislative council should be standard equipment in every state of the union.


Mr. GRAY:: Hear, hear.


Jean-François Pouliot: I appreciate the attention which has been given to that quotation.
With regard to legislation as a whole, I am strongly opposed to interdepartmental committees. I moved the abolition of Mr. Bennett's economic council, and the basis of interdepartmental committees is exactly the same as that of an economic council. But in the case of Kansas and some other states of the union what has been done is in the way of what we here call a joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons.


Ernest Lapointe: It does not apply to this bill.


Jean-François Pouliot: It is about legislation.


Ernest Lapointe: This bill has no departmental committee. It is- merely to amend the statute.


Jean-François Pouliot: No, but I wanted to express my views about the importance of legislation and the way it should be drafted. I have not read twice the bill which is now before the committee; I just glanced through it; I take the word of the Minister of Justice that no interdepartmental committee had anything to do with it.
Generally, with regard to legislation, it seems to me that every piece of legislation- and this one is rather technical-should be

C.N.R.-Guarantee oj Securities
submitted to caucus, and notice should be given in caucus of the sitting at which the bill will be discussed, in order that members may have an opportunity to consider and discuss the matter before they express in caucus the views of their district or of themselves as individuals. Legislation is a most important matter, because it affects all the people, men, women and children, from coast to coast. It is important that we should have the least possible legislation, and the very best. I have calculated the number of pages of reports of committees which have been published this session. They amount to as much as the whole of Hansard; which means that, if we spend the whole day here listening to the debate or discussion, we shall have to spend the whole night reading the reports of committees.


Thomas Reid: It cannot be done.


Jean-François Pouliot: It cannot be done; and I defy any member of the committee to state that he has read carefully all and every one of the pieces of legislation which have been brought before us. It is humanly impossible, because it requires much more time to read a legal text than to read the report of a committee. Therefore I urge upon the Minister of Justice that he try to influence his colleagues to bring as little legislation as possible to the house. If we could spend two or three sessions solely upon estimates and trade proposals, hon. members would have the opportunity to become familiar with the law and to express sound views for the betterment of legislation. And that betterment will not be achieved by piling Pelion on Ossa, one mountain on the top of another; it will be achieved by cutting legislation to the very minimum, remembering that mankind has been guided for centuries by the ten commandments of God: they were only ten, each one was only two lines, and no one could then offer, as an excuse, ignorance of law. At the present time it is not possible for any man in Canada to be familiar with all the legislation which is enacted by this parliament and by the provincial legislatures.
We are here primarily to enact legislation; this is the first duty of members of the House of Commons and the Senate. I hope that we shall be true to that obligation, and that, in future, legislation will be scrutinized as it can be only if it is in such quantity as to be readable. And the quality should be better than the quantity.


Mr. MacNICOL:: It is a long thirty seconds, though.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.

On section 2-" Gold clause obligation."
Ernest Lapointe: I move:
That the following be substituted for the words in parenthesis in lines 7 and 8 of clause 2 of the bill: "including any such obligation which has, at any time heretofore or hereafter, matured or been repudiated."
It is merely a change to make the section clearer.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
Section 3 agreed to.
On section 4-Legal tender.
Ernest Lapointe: I have had this clause redrafted. I move that the following be substituted for section 4:
4.	In an action in Canada upon a gold clause obligation, (i) tender in currency which is legal tender in the country in the money of which the obligation is or becomes payable, of the nominal or face amount of the obligation, or
(ii) tender in currency which is legal tender where the tender is made of an amount which is equivalent to the nominal or face amount of the obligation,
shall be a legal tender if such tender was made at the place at which the obligation was payable by the terms of the contract whether such tender was made before or after the commencement of such action, and the debtor shall, if he has made payment in accordance with such tender, be entitled to a discharge of the obligation or of any liability for damages by reason of repudiation, of liability upon such obligation.
It is a change of phraseology.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 5-Foreign judgment. Legal tender.
Ernest Lapointe: I move:
That the following be substituted for clause 5 of the bill:
5.	In an action in Canada upon a foreign judgment rendered in an action commenced after the date of the commencement of this act upon a gold clause obligation,
(i)	tender in currency which is legal tender in the country in the money of which such obligation is or becomes payable, of the nominal or face amount of such obligation or
(ii)	tender in currency which is legal tender where the tender is made of an amount which is equivalent to the nominal or face amount of such obligation,
shall be a legal tender if such tender was made at the place at which the obligation was payable by the terms of the contract and before the foreign .action was commenced, and the debtor shall, if he has made payment in accordance with such tender, be entitled to a discharge of such judgment.

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It is in about the same words as the new
section 4.	[DOT]	.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 6-Payment made before this act.
René-Antoine Pelletier: I have in mind certain obligations which Calgary had to meet in New York last year or the year before. Would this section in any way affect payments in New York which were supposed to be made on the gold basis toy any Canadian city at that time?


Ernest Lapointe: No.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 7 to 11 inclusive agreed to.
Bill reported.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND RESOURCES Immigration branch.
166. Administration of the Immigration Act and the Chinese Immigration Act, $172,605.
Thomas Reid: I understand that the interpreters who serve in the examination of Japanese seeking to enter the country are themselves Japanese and quite often, if not always, they are really advocates, in that their desire is to have applicants admitted. The time has come for us to use our immigration officers to the best advantage, and I submit that these interpreters should be Canadians. There is no reason why Canadians cannot be found who are able to speak the language.


Mr. MICHAUD:: Where?


Thomas Reid: In British Columbia, or perhaps in the minister's province. Certainly in British Columbia there are Canadians who are able to speak Japanese and Chinese or any other language. I do not know whether the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Michaud) has ever witnessed an interpretation scene when Japanese were being examined through the medium of one of their countrymen. Why, often it will take them half a minute to return the answer, no. They talk back and forth.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: How do you know?


Thomas Reid: As I say, these interpreters
are really advocates. Their job is to enable their fellow countrymen to get into Canada.
Japan uses her own people when interpreting English; why should we not use our own citizens to interpret and size up Japanese? Has any consideration been given that point?


Mr. NEILL:: I endorse the remarks of
the hon. member. I had a friend, an Englishman born in Japan, who could speak Japanese well and he told me once that he went into the police court in Vancouver and heard the Japanese interpreter bargaining with the prisoner as to how much he would give the interpreter for swinging the evidence in his favour.


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Mines and Resources):: We have no Japanese interpreters at the present time. One was employed at Victoria until a few months ago, and about two years ago the Japanese interpreter at Vancouver was changed. At present we have one white Japanese interpreter who does the work at both Victoria and Vancouver.


Mr. BARBER:: How many Sudeten
Germans have been brought into the country and where are they settled?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Up to the present time
about 150 families have arrived. They are of German extraction and almost entirely of the Roman Catholic faith. They were Germans in the Sudeten area who were opposed to the nazi philosophy and naturally when that area was occupied by the German troops after the understanding or settlement, if I may so term it, reached at Munich last September, these families fled from their homes into Czechoslovakia proper. Strong representations were made to the government that we should consider their plight. Arrangements were made on the other side for giving them the necessary financial assistance to settle and up to the present time about 150 families have come in. I cannot say how many have been located in British Columbia, but practically all the others are in Saskatchewan.


Mr. SPENCE:: How many individuals?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We expect some additional families to come in, but at the moment I do not know how many. New Brunswick has expressed the wish to have a small group settled there. I am informed that they average about four members to a family, so that in the 150 families there would be about six hundred souls.


Harry James Barber: In what part of British Columbia are they being settled? Are they coming under some colonization scheme in connection with the railway?
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Thomas Alexander Crerar: The settlement is being arranged through the colonization departments of the two railways. The department does not select the districts in which these families will settle. The colonization departments of the railways are, I believe, lending every assistance they can in getting them located in districts where they will have a fair opportunity of making a success. * I may add that the other day ivhen I was in Winnipeg two or three gentlemen spoke to me who had seen some of these families passing through, and they were very much impressed with their type and character.


Harry James Barber: It is understood that a number of these families are to be placed in what is known as the Pitt meadows district. I have drawn this to the attention of the house before. The minister says they are a very fine class of people; it is most regrettable that' they are being placed on such holdings. I understand this land has been owned by the railway company for some time and that some years ago Mennonites were settled on it but they could not make a go of it. It is cold, waterlogged land, they tell me, on which no one can make a living. Many protests have come from the district pointing out the failure of previous settlers to make good there, and suggesting it will eventually mean that these people will drift into the neighbouring municipalities and be added to the relief rolls. It seems too bad if the settlement of these people is left altogether to the colonization departments of the railways. Surely the immigration branch should be interested enough to follow the matter up and see that they are settled on proper lands where they will have a chance to make good.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I can assure the hon. member that none of these families have been settled in the district he mentioned. I am informed that so far they are being located in the northern part of the province-


René-Antoine Pelletier: The Peace River block.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: -along the Canadian
National railways. As far as we are aware, it is not the intention of the Canadian Pacific Railway colonization department to locate any of them in the area described by the hon. member. I know that the colonization departments of the railways are keenly alive to the necessity of getting these people suitably located, in districts where they will have a reasonable chance of success. The railway companies have a direct interest in seeing that they are so located. I do not think there is any likelihood of their being settled in the district the hon. member mentions.


Harry James Barber: Well, it has been stated in the press, and I believe through the railway companies, that they were settling them in that district. It is common knowledge in British Columbia.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not seen any such report, but my information would indicate that if it did appear in the press it was erroneous.


Mr. GREEN:: Early in the session of 1938 the Prime Minister announced that an interdepartmental committee had been at work for almost a year on the whole question of orientals in Canada. At page 1035 of Hansard of March 4, 193S he is reported as making this statement:
In accordance with the statement made at that time, the interdepartmental committee, consisting of representatives of the branches of the service chiefly concerned, namely, immigration, justice, national defence labour, fisheries, statistics and external affairs, has been instructed to reexamine the whole situation and to report at an early date.
I point out that the interdepartmental committee was supposed to report at an early date. Later in the session, June 30 of last year, I asked the Minister of Mines and Resources whether any report had been submitted, and his reply, found on page 4498 of Hansard, was:
I understand the interdepartmental committee has not made a report, but the board of review is operating.
Last fall there were reports in the press to the effect that this interdepartmental committee had made an extensive study of the whole question of orientals in Canada and their effect upon the national economy. It was stated that any reports by that committee would cover the extent to which orientals were engaged in commerce, their living standards, and the effect they have on white labour. A month later, in October of last year, the board of review, which as the minister knows was set up to only investigate illegal entry of Japanese into Canada, made its report. At page 6 we find this, referring to the Prime Minister's statement in the house:
He added, however, that it was to be anticipated that the board might incidentally receive information on other aspects of the oriental problem and that this might be found useful by the interdepartmental committee which had been appointed to review the whole oriental problem.
And then the report goes on to say:
The Prime Minister's expectations were amply justified in fact, and a considerable amount of general information was collected and has been placed before the members of the interdepartmental committee.

S upply-M ines-Immigration
That was in October of last year. In January of this year there was a press report to the effect that while this interdepartmental committee had made a thorough investigation, it was possible that no report from them would be made public. I quote from an article in the Vancouver Province of January 25, 1939:
Stacks of statistical or other "dope" about the orientals have been amassed-their numbers, ages, locations, occupations, the value of their business and investments, and the effect of their competition with whites.
Few investigations were ever made with greater secrecy. Officials are loath to admit anything about it,
This newspaper report went on to say that probably there would never be any publication of the report. On January 30, on the orders of the day, I asked the Prime Minister about this, and he replied to the effect that as far as he could remember the interdepartmental committee had been set up only to advise the board of review, and that, with the boai'd of review's work finished, the interdepartmental committee's work was finished. That was obviously wrong, but there was no opportunity at the time to go into the matter further. Will the minister tell us what the situation is in regard to this interdepartmental committee?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As the hon. member has stated, the board of review made a report, and that report was tabled and is before the house. The board of review was concerned with the matter of illegal entry. Representations had been made that there was illegal entry, and I think on some occasions in the house the fear was expressed that many Japanese particularly were entering Canada illegally. The examination made by the board of review was a pretty thorough one. The committee examined into the whole question of oriental immigration, and I understand a report was made to the Department of External Affairs, but the report is of a confidential nature. How much of it might be disclosed, if indeed any of it could be, is a matter for the Prime Minister, who has direction of our external affairs. I am not in a position to give to the hon. member for Vancouver South a,ny further information. However, the really important question was the extent to which illegal entries were taking place.


Howard Charles Green: I was referring to the interdepartmental committee, not the board of review.


Frederick George Sanderson: It is after one o'clock.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Probably I should finish what I was about to say. The important question was as to whether or not illegal entries were taking place, and I think that point has been pretty well cleared up by the report of the board of review.
Item stands.
At one o'clock the committee 'took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


Howard Charles Green: This morning I referred to the board of review which was appointed to look into the illegal entry of Japanese into Canada. What has been done about the recommendations of the board of review which are contained on page 15 of their report? The first recommendation reads:
That the handling of ships at the ports of entry in British Columbia should be improved by enactment of and adherence to the following regulations:
I.	The Canadian immigration authorities should issue their own Asiatic identification cards to members of the crews of ships that call regularly at Canadian ports instead of using the United States cards as at present.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that some of the ships use Canadian cards, but others have not yet got round to their use. I am assured by my officers that this does not interfere in the slightest with the examination of crews on the ships. They are all checked with the manifest.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any reason why this recommendation should not be put into effect?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that it can be done with the regular liners, but a difficulty arises with tramp ships. A cargo boat plying all over the world and coming into Vancouver for cargo would not be equipped with these cards.


Howard Charles Green: The next recommendation reads:
II.	The Canadian immigration authorities should have the right to order the fumigation of any vessel arriving in Pacific ports within two hours of its arrival. This right should not be used frequently but its existence should be made known and its employment should be at irregular intervals.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is not a matter for the immigration branch; it is under the jurisdiction of the Department of Pensions and National Health, which have to do with quarantine regulations.
Suppl y-M ines-Immig rci tion


Howard Charles Green: This recommendation was
made to the immigration branch; I should like to know if they have done anything about it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed they have not.


Howard Charles Green: Is it intended that such
regulations shall be issued by the Department of Pensions and National Health?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The whole matter has been under examination but there is doubt as to the practicability of doing it. The practice is to fumigate ships for vermin, but to fumigate against human beings presents difficulties. If you should seal a ship to fumigate it and there is some poor chap down in the hold, he might never come out alive.	.


Howard Charles Green: He might come out pretty fast.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The chances are that he would not. There is a practical difficulty there, but the whole matter' is under examination.


Howard Charles Green: The third recommendation is:
III.	Landing cards and visitors' passes should be punched by the ship guards, thus adding another psychological barrier to be surmounted by the would-be illegal entrant.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am told that the practice is to have a customs guard on the ship, and cards must ibe presented by persons who wish to leave the ship. The crews are all examined by the immigration officers; Chinese crews are not allowed off the ship at all.


Howard Charles Green: Apparently the board of review considered that this might have some psychological effect on Japanese who may be* seeking illegal entry. Is there any reason why the recommendation could not be adopted?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The board of review considered that it might have a psychological effect, tout of course that is a matter of opinion.
. Mr. GREEN: The fourth recommendation reads:
IV.	When orientals arrive at Canadian ports with the announced intention of visiting the dominion on business or as tourists, or of passing through Canada to some other country, a brief form of notification should be filled in by the immigration inspector and forwarded to Ottawa. Similarly when orientals leave Canada after tourist or business visits a notification form should be returned to Ottawa from the port of exit. The two forms will then be cancelled and the case closed. A similar method of checking should be used for insuring the departure of students who have entered Canada to attend college or university.
[Mr. Crerar. 1


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that the practice is to check all Chinese in and out This is done to conform with the regulations of the Chinese Immigration Act. Japanese visitors are treated the same as other visitors, but a record exists of all Japanese and others who come into the country and they can be followed up.


Howard Charles Green: This question of Japanese immigration is a serious one for British Columbia. If any of these recommendations will help, I think they should be adopted by the department.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The whole matter is under consideration by the officials of the department. Hon. members may think that the department has been dilatory in giving consideration to the recommendations of the board of review, but I might say that there has not been a year in the last twenty or more when the burden of work has been so heavy, particularly during the last six or eight months.


Howard Charles Green: Another important recommendation reads:
That section 50, subsection 10 of the Immigration Act be amended to raise the penalty tor allowing a stowaway to land in Canada from $100 to $1,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is under consideration also. If an amendment were enacted as suggested, it would apply to all nationalities. There is a question as to the wisdom of applying so stringent a regulation.


Howard Charles Green: Why could it not be applied only to orientals?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: For a reason with which my hon. friend protoably will not agree-it would be quite definitely discriminatory legislation or administration.


Howard Charles Green: The last recommendation reads:
That close cooperation be continued between the Department of the Secretary of State and the immigration branch to the end that no illegal entrant shall be allowed to obtain naturalization in Canada.
What is being done along that line?


Mr. CAHAN:: So far as the administration of the office of Secretary of State and that department is concerned, certainly it would have been impossible when I was there in the five years ending 1935 for a person who had obtained illegal entry to obtain a certificate of naturalization.


Howard Charles Green: Will the minister explain the situation with regard to that recommendation?

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Thomas Alexander Crerar: When application is made for naturalization, inquiry is made through the immigration branch to ascertain if the applicant is legally in Canada. In several instances within the last year or so-not as to orientals but as to Europeans-it has come to my attention that entry was made into the country surreptitiously as far back as ten or twelve years ago. Some of them were in business in this country, and when application was made for naturalization, inquiry through the immigration branch as to their status revealed for the first time the fact that they had entered the country illegally. I quite agree with the observation made by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George that it would be, to say the least, extremely difficult for a person not legally in the country to secure naturalization.


Mr. STEVENS:: The reason an inquiry was set up was that some few years ago criminal actions and police court records revealed that abuses of the immigration and naturalization laws had occurred, and one of the most flagrant abuses some years ago was in connection with the securing of licences to fish through the passing of naturalization papers from one Japanese to another; it was chiefly the Japanese who were concerned. This offence was committed in a wholesale way in times past. The abuse became so flagrant that action had to be taken. The mounted police and the local authorities followed the matter up and action was taken in the courts. Then this inquiry was set up. I suggest to the minister, and I am not doing so in any critical sense, that the department might well take cognizance of and put into operation these recommendations, even though some of them may seem trivial. I will tell the minister why I suggest that.
I have been in close touch with oriental immigration for the last thirty-five years, and I think I know it thoroughly. There is a tendency in human nature to become a little lax through familiarity with a problem which has to be met from day to day. The immigration guards watching the ports are efficient and, generally speaking do their job well, but there is a tendency through familiarity with the work to become a little lax, which is not to be wondered at. Take the suggestion made by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) in connection with the report from which he has just quoted, that it should be obligatory on the guards to punch a card. If that were done it would inject a little newness into the duties of the guards and would probably restore the general efficiency which had been lessened through
familiarity with the work. I suggest that the adoption of the recommendations cited this afternoon, while some of them may seem unimportant, would greatly assist in an equitable and more rigorous enforcement of the law. I repeat that I am not disposed to be critical of the immigration department and of the oriental immigration branch on the Pacific coast, because generally speaking they have done their duty well. But they are faced with a difficult task, and there are subtle ways of evading the law. The minister will agree that if he saw twenty or thirty or a hundred Japanese walking off a ship he would find it extremely difficult to recognize any one of them half an hour later. To those not accustomed to looking at orientals they are very much alike, and there is unusual difficulty in keeping track of them. Again, they are clannish; they work together. It is not at all uncommon for them to secure illegal entry of a ship worker, who then gets lost down in Chinatown or among the Japanese and you hear no more of him. I know the department has tried to check that, and it has done a very good job. But there is no harm whatever in paying close attention to the suggestions that have been made, if for no other reason than their psychological effect and the injection of, shall I say, a new spirit of efficiency to obviate the effects of overfamiliarity with the day-to-day task.


Thomas Reid: On previous occasions I have brought to the minister's attention the great need for more guards at the port of New Westminster. My information-the minister will correct me if I am wrong-is that vessels clearing from the port of Vancouver often may finish up with a cargo of lumber on the Fraser river, after which they clear for the orient or some other destination. I have seen as many as twelve ships in the stream at one time, and six large ocean-going vessels tied up at the wharves, and with no room left. There is only one guard on duty, and it is impossible for him to guard all those ships. A ship may also go further up-stream, to Fraser river mills, where there are no guards at all, or it may cross to the elevator. Almost anything can happen, and sometimes I believe does happen, in connection with the ships clearing from Vancouver and coming up the Fraser river, because some on board ship are just looking for ports where the surveillance is lax. I urge the minister to have that situation looked into. I believe there are not enough guards to watch those who would seek to enter the country surreptitiously and those wanting to smuggle others in.
*1736
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Alan Webster Neill: I was out of the chamber
for a short time and possibly this has already been discussed. The interdepartmental committee reported that from a survey it had been ascertained that quite a number of orientals were illegally in British Columbia at the present time, but they could not put their finger on them. Is any attempt being made to follow those cases up?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, they are followed
up and several have been deported. Sooner or later the law will overtake the others who are illegally in the country, and they will go out too.


Alan Webster Neill: My recollection is that there
were a hundred illegally in the country. If you have managed to get several of them in two years, the others will be dead, I am afraid, before the law overtakes them.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are about one
hundred cases. My hon. friend is quite right. Of those, twenty-six have been deported. I said "several."


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister is too
modest; that is the trouble with him.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. Modesty is always
a becoming virtue. Twenty-six of them have been deported, and I am told there are a few cases now before the court, and some appeals pending. Sooner or later, I expect, most of them will be picked up.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch-National parks bureau.
518. Forest conservation, $200,000.
Mr. TAYLOR (Nanaimo):: Just what is
being done about these forest services?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This corresponds with a
similar amount last year. It provides for studies of the soundest methods of forest conservation and development which are carried on in the national parks and in the dominion forestry experimental stations. We have five forestry stations-one each in New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba ahd Alberta-at which a constant study is made of the best conditions under which growth can be secured, and the most effective methods of protecting against fire. A considerable amount of work has been done, notably at the Ontario station at Petawawa, to examine into fire hazards in our forests. The examination is carried out scientifically, and. as a result, lumbering companies and pulp and paper companies which have forest assets in Ontario or Quebec can
TMr. Rfid.l
secure accurate data as to the conditions under which fire is most likely to occur, and, of course, can take steps to guard against it. At a period when fire hazards are extremely high, more precautions must be taken. In a general way this describes the work which is being carried on under this vote. I should say also that similar work is being carried on in several of the national parks.


James Samuel Taylor: How close is the liaison between the federal department and the various provinces in their control of their own forests?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: All the data we collect from these investigations and studies are published and are available to the provincial authorities and to private owners of wood-lots or timber everywhere in Canada.


Mr. ESLING:: Is any portion of this item to be expended in British Columbia, or is it entirely absorbed within the national parks area?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No part of this vote is appropriated for British Columbia. There is not, so far, an experimental forest station under federal control in British Columbia.


Alan Webster Neill: Why not? It is the banner lumber province of the dominion. Why has it not some look-in on that vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know that I can give any special reason for that. I am advised that there has been some difference of opinion as between the forestry officials in the lands, parks and forests branch of the federal government and the authorities in British Columbia as to the area which might be secured and the amount of control which might be exercised over it. I may say that on the western side of British Columbia the fire hazard is less than in the eastern provinces.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Oh, be careful!


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Maybe I have stepped into trouble there.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Angels rushing in! That is not so, outside of a few spots.


Grote Stirling: Try the interior.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I confess that perhaps I have not accurately informed myself on that point.


Alan Webster Neill: Last year there was a fire on Vancouver island which became of almost national importance in that it threatened to devastate the island from one end to the other. It was only the grace of God and a

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thunderstorm that saved the situation. It was really very serious. Hundreds, yes thousands, of men were hurried out in an endeavour to check it. Apart from that, it runs in my mind that many years ago the dominion government set apart for this purpose a reserve, which I believe was in Thurlow island or one of the islands north of the upper gulf of Georgia. There was some correspondence about it between the minister's department and the province. I have the idea that the dominion government made an offer to the province either to yield their rights to the province, it being an island peculiarly suitable for experiments of the kind, or to take it over from the province. Has the minister any knowledge on that subject? I believe it was a location on Thurlow Mand, in fact I am sure it was.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At one time there were some discussions about the federal government securing control for experimental work, but the matter did not proceed, I understand, beyond the discussion stage. The department maintains at Vancouver a forest products laboratory upon which approximately $35,000 a year is spent. It is for the study of the forest woods produced in British Columbia and how they can be most efficiently used.


Alan Webster Neill: That refers only to the tensile strength of the various woods and such matters, and is entirely removed from any suggestion of reforestation. It has nothing whatever to do with any consideration of the basic question of renewing the forests which are being rapidly depleted. That is the largest lumber producing part of Canada; it is known as the last great stand of Douglas fir. I suggest that the time has come when we should look to the future. The province is carrying out experiments in the planting of young trees, and some of the logging companies have been enterprising enough to set out two or three hundred acres at a cost of about $1.50 an acre. Young trees are being grown in a nursery near New Westminster and they are set out on this land, of which there is a good deal which is fit for nothing but forestry experimentation. The land is lying idle and there is nothing but scrub bush growing on it. The minister says he does not know of any reason why they should not engage in this work. Can he suggest any reason why this government should not do something in the matter? I suggest that he make a note of it and give it his consideration.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The British Columbia
government have for years been carrying on, and as a matter of fact they are now carrying
on, experimental work under provincial direction similar to the work that is being done in the federal field. To what extent their activities go I confess I am not in a position to say. I shall be glad to make a note of my hon. friend's suggestion. Generally speaking, across the whole country, we should be giving greater study to the preservation of our forest wealth, to afforestation, and reforestation in areas that have been cut over; but it boils down to a question of funds with which to carry on the work. Our forests, of course, are a great national asset and should be dealt with in a large national way.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Is any provision made
under this item for the treatment of epidemic diseases that afflict spruce, pine, cedar and other evergreen trees in our parks?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. Studies of the kind are carried on in conjunction with the entomological and botanical branches of the Department of Agriculture and considerable progress has been made in checking the ravages of some of these pests.


Henry Herbert Stevens: About four or five years ago a blight struck the trees in the Banff and Yoho parks and it was easily discerned. Vast areas of evergreens began to turn brown and in course of time they died. Last year I noticed a similar blight had crossed the Selkirk range, whether infected from that area I do not know, and some fine stands of commercial timber on the western slope of the Selkirk range were attacked. It was creating havoc in a certain district. To any lover of the forest and of nature, who also appreciates the value of our trees as a national asset, these things are extremely disturbing. I suggest therefore that, first, with a view to the preservation of the beauty of our parks, and secondly, for the purpose of helping to save commercial timber, our national parks offer a unique opportunity for work of this kind, and I urge upon the minister that he give this suggestion some study.
With reference to the devastation caused by forest fires, I am not critical of the minister's remarks, but I can speak from personal observation. I have watched the progress of events in British Columbia for forty-five years, and I can show hundreds of square miles in many districts where magnificent timber was swept clean away, leaving the mountain bare. These patches have not been reforested. There is growing up on them an inferior type of timber following fires of that kind. Actually hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of timber has been destroyed by forest fires. Very little has been done by any provincial government in the last forty years
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to cope with the fire menace, apart from fighting the fire when it breaks out and keeping a watch for any outbreak, and once a fire occurs, with the draught which it naturally develops its spread is usually rapid, so that the only thing that can be done is to confine it as far as possible within the area. Almost invariably' considerable damage is done.
With regard to the question. of reforestation, I suggest to the minister that the national parks branch, together with the Department of Labour, should study the advisability of establishing large nurseries in the parks or in areas that could be assigned to the parks branch for work of this description. Mention was made of what the provincial government was doing. I have no desire to reflect upon the provincial government, but the work it is doing is so infinitesimal as really to amount to nothing. When you talk about a million seedlings it sounds big, but actually it is extremely small. The problem must be approached from a national point of view. There are large areas in the parks of Alberta and British Columbia-Yoho, the Glacier park, Kootenay, Banff, Jasper and many others-which are under the direction of federal authority, and they are all suitable for reforestation. There is therefore a great opportunity for work in that direction. It is a growing asset, and no money would be lost in such work. This money that we are spending may result in some scientific knowledge, but we are not so making use of that knowledge as from now on to build up an asset which fifty or a hundred years hence would abundantly repay us. Instead of merely spending a couple of hundred thousand dollars in an assumed discharge of our responsibility, we should in conjunction with the Department of Labour approach the problem with an eye to the future, looking ahead twenty or thirty years. We should follow a program over a number of years.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: With a definite objective each year.


Henry Herbert Stevens: With the definite object
of supplying work and training foresters, because many of these young men who go into that business will remain as expert foresters. If the problem were taken hold of in that way we should be justified in capitalizing the work done, so that we should not call it money paid out in the form of a dole for the relief of unemployment; it would be an investment in the forestry life of this country. I view with alarm the course w'e have been following. During the first session I was in the house, now twenty-eight years ago, I brought this subject up. I talked to the provincial

governments, the late Mr. Sloan when he was minister of lands in British Columbia, and the present premier of British Columbia, who is a very charming gentleman; but there has never been an effort to grapple with the problem. We have been exporting from British Columbia to Norway and Sweden, where they use it in planting tree nurseries, tons of seed of pine, fir and spruce. In Sweden a year or two ago I was taken into forests which were almost ready to cut-in fact, preliminary cutting was going on-grown from British Columbia seed during the last thirty or forty years. This seems to me a challenge not only to the intelligence but to the sense of duty of those of us who are in positions of authority to preserve an asset we already possess or to create one that will in time become of great value to the country. The opportunity is there; the need is there. Under this national parks policy, which is a splendid thing, we could give a great service in that respect.


Mr. MacINNIS:: The subject matter
touched upon by the hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. Stevens) cannot be overemphasized. In British Columbia the forest situation is becoming very serious. The chief forester for the province at the last two sessions of the legislature made reports which were disturbing to say the least. He pointed out that at the present rate of commercial cutting, without taking into consideration at all the fire loss, the commercial timber in British Columbia will be exhausted in sixteen to twenty years. It is a serious situation for a province in which so much of the public revenue during the last thirty years has been derived from its timber resources. British Columbia has been living on its capital and expending very little of the forest revenue on forest preservation. The minister mentioned the smallness of the fire hazard there. I believe there was a time when in certain parts of British Columbia it was almost impossible to start a forest fire. I was told that, when I went to British Columbia over thirty years ago. But that time is gone. With the continual cutting, the slash being left on the ground, fires are as general in British Columbia forests and as easy to start as they are anywhere else in Canada. And possibly because of the contour of the province they are harder to deal with when started.
I gather from this vote that what the dominion government is largely doing is research and experimentation. The item is called "forest conservation," but I do not think much conservation is carried on under it. I remember reading in the press a little while ago of a forest expert from Norway visiting

Supply-M ines-Parks
Canada, He came to British Columbia and, speaking I think .in Edmonton, was asked if he had learned anything new in regard to forest conservation while in British Columbia or in Canada as a whole. His reply was striking; he said he had not learned anything positive, but he had learned a number of things not to do. We are faced with a condition in Canada, particularly in British Columbia, in respect of which something must be done. We must safeguard our forests. Anything the minister can do to help in that province and to cooperate with the provincial government will be appreciated. I hope he will make the necessary overtures to the province to deal with forest preservation.


Alan Webster Neill: I wish to endorse everything that the last two speakers have said, and their statements should have the more weight because they approached the matter without the least political bias. Almost every year logging camps on Vancouver island have to shut down for one to three weeks on account of the danger of fire. It is so readily started and so difficult to control. One fire which did considerable damage was caused by the breaking of a wire cable which flew back and coiled around a dry stump; the friction set the stump on fire, and although all hands were there at once, it was weeks before the fire was put out. This indicates how dangerous the condition is. Last year the camps were shut down for over a month, and a very heavy loss was sustained and a still greater one threatened.
Dealing with another aspect of the matter: this vote is for conservation. Let me suggest another form of conservation-beginning, so to speak, at the other end-which should commend itself to the government because it would not involve any expenditure. The minister may say it is not in his department, but after all he is a member of the government and he can make recommendations as to policy. If the government prohibited the export of logs, it would extend the life of the forests we now have until we could bring in some system of reforestation. It is a reflection on our common sense that we allow this condition to prevail. It does not matter really whether the shipping out of the logs is done by white men or by orientals, although the thing comes home to us more strikingly when it is done by orientals. They come to British Columbia and buy from private individuals large areas of timber. They cut it and ship it out as logs, employing their own nationals exclusively, except the one or two white men they are compelled by law to employ. The wages paid benefit the country to a slight
extent, but it is so little. The logs are cut and taken to the water, sometimes without even being barked; they are shoved into a vessel and taken to Japan, where the necessary sawing and manufacturing facilities are operated. It is a matter of common knowledge, I believe, that they do that in the fulfilment of a deliberate policy of buying timber abroad while they can get it as cheaply as they can in British Columbia, thus preserving their own forests. Perhaps the ordinary traveller visiting Japan does not see much timber, but I believe on one northern island, the name of which I have forgotten, there is a very considerable area of growing timber, and they preserve that as a matter of deliberate policy while 'buying their timber cheaply in British Columbia. They are more far-sighted than we are; they are preserving their own timber against the day of trouble, and meanwhile we are letting our heritage go for a mere song, for this trivial amount of wages expended in cutting it and bringing it to the water. If the government would put into force a prohibition against the export of logs, except in manufactured form, it might take us longer to devastate our forests, or clean them out- and that would not be a bad thing for British Columbia or Canada. It would certainly give more employment to people in British Columbia and would to some extent check the drain that is going on now. The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis) pointed out that the chief forester for British Columbia had suggested that in a matter of sixteen or twenty years the commercial timber would be wiped out. Surely now is the time to begin to do something. And it does look particularly bad for us, when we talk about protecting our resources, and about tariff protection, that we should let one of our biggest assets disappear, for a mere song, or for the expenditure of the very smallest possible amount of labour. I do suggest that this matter should be taken up. Possibly it does not come under the department of the minister, but I suggest this matter of conservation might be taken up by him with his colleagues.


James Samuel Taylor: In earnestly supporting all that has been said about this matter I wish to draw attention to another feature of conservation. In British Columbia, and in fact all along the Pacific coast, there is a valuable tree which is indigenous, namely the cascara tree. It thrives in the forests, but the moment those forests are cut down the ruthless deforestation destroys the cascara tree. There is quite a process connected with the collection of the bark, a process which
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is understood by those who have practiced it for some time. The tree is easily taken care of, but the people who ruthlessly destroy the resources of our country should be prevented from carrying on their nefarious, destructive work. Has the minister anything to say about what is being done with respect to the care for the cascara tree?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Replying first to the question of the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Taylor), there is very little the government can do in the matter he has raised. We must approach a consideration of this question with the knowledge that all the forests are resources owned and under the control of the provinces. The federal government has no jurisdiction over what class of timber shall be cut, how it shall be cut, what shall be done with the wastage or the slash, or anything else; these are matters purely within provincial control. This fact has led to concentration of efforts by the federal administration on the particular areas over which it has control, namely, the national parks and the experimental forestry stations. In the experimental forestry stations and in the national parks we are endeavouring to study scientifically all the factors relating to forest growth, conservation, and utilization, and that information is prepared in proper form and is available not only to provincial forestry authorities but also to the private operators who are found in every province of the dominion.
I agree with everything that has been said with respect to this matter of conservation. The hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. Stevens) stated the case reasonably and moderately, as did other hon. members who supported his view. In the past very little attention has been given to the conservation of this national asset. The subject did not exist in the thoughts and minds of many people ten or fifteen years ago. It was rarely one would find a person who would give even a casual thought to the need of conserving or reproducing our forests. A change is taking place in that regard, and to-day there is a growing interest throughout the length and breadth of Canada in the matter of protecting, preserving and conserving our forests. That is all to the good, and should be encouraged in every reasonable way. I was impressed with that thought a few years ago. I might say that the vote we are now considering, while it is small in comparison with an expenditqre which usefully could be made on the whole problem, will do good. Three or four years ago such a vote did not exist, because the work was not then being carried on. I believe it was only two years ago the first vote for this special purpose appeared in

the estimates. I am not necessarily betraying any secret when I tell the committee that I had to convince my colleagues as to the wisdom of the expenditure. I had less difficulty this year. I will take the committee sufficiently into my confidence to say that if I should be on the job again next year I shall endeavour to have the vote increased. I am glad to have the support of the committee this afternoon to that end.
In the present year, under the votes of the Department of Labour, a million dollars have been appropriated for general forestry work. It will give an opportunity for employment, we hope, to a considerable number of young people. They will gain experience in conservation methods, and we should expect some of them to be encouraged to go on and make forestry work their career. That will probably be the result. As stated by my colleague the Minister of Labour when his .estimates were 'before the committee, a portion of that vote has been transferred to the Department of Mines and Resources for purposes of administration. The work has already been pretty well planned for the present season. It will be carried on again in the parks and in the forestry stations, extending and enlarging the work we have been able to do under this vote and the vote of last year.
In public addresses I have endeavoured occasionally to emphasize to the people of Canada the importance of our forest wealth. It is encouraging to find to-day a much greater response to an appeal of this kind than would have been possible ten, fifteen or twenty years ago. We are travelling in the right direction. I confess that I believe we are travelling rather slowly, but it is only by building up public opinion throughout the country in support of these measures that we shall secure effective results in the future.


Alan Webster Neill: What about an export duty on raw logs?
Mr. CRERAR; I would hesitate to express any opinion upon that matter to-day. There may be much merit in the suggestion of the hon. member for Comox-Alberni, but I can also foresee a good deal of opposition to it. This is not a matter that comes particularly under my direction. I think we could do something more in educational work, particularly in the public schools-the way is opening up for that. I am certainly pleased with the trend of the discussion this afternoon.


James Samuel Taylor: I believe the cascara tree is making its last stand in British Columbia, because it has been destroyed in California, Oregon, and to a great extent in

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Washington. The bark takes about three years to cure before it is ready for the chemical market. The importance of the growth of this tree should be considered by the conservation branch of the department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch.
. 017. Land registry-Amount required to reimburse the government of Saskatchewan for one-half the loss suffered on account of unpaid relief advances made by municipalities under joint guarantee from the dominion and the province, $90,000.
Angus MacInnis: Why is this item under mines and resources?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is a matter which
originated some twenty years ago in connection with granting assistance for relief purposes in Saskatchewan. Where advances had been made by the banks to municipalities for the purchase of necessary relief, an arrangement was made under which the provincial and federal governments would share equally in any loss that might arise.


Mr. PERLEY:: The minister states that this matter has been outstanding for some time. Why did it not appear in the estimates of other years? I know something of the financial condition of Saskatchewan, and I do not think that government would allow an item of this kind to run so long.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This covers advances made for the purposes I indicated a moment ago, under agreements entered into in the years 1919 to 1922. I am informed that this amount clears up the losses which have been established definitely up to the present time.


George Halsey Perley: Has this account been in dispute and carried along without settlement?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It has not been in dispute. It has simply been carried along by the banks as an amount owed to them.


Harry James Barber: How does it come under this department?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At that time the lands and resources of Saskatchewan were under federal control. There were a large number of homesteaders who were recipients of this assistance.


Angus MacInnis: The recipients of this relief were on lands under the control of the federal government?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Many of them were men who had homesteaded on federal government land, and there were others who had purchased their land from land companies or railway companies or from other sources.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch.
522. Development of tourist highways, $3,750,000.	B * '
Grote Stirling: What progress has been made on the road from the boundary to Kootenay park?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: About thirty-five miles of new grading and twenty miles of hard surfacing were completed last year. The amount contributed by the dominion was $175,000.


Grote Stirling: Is that the piece of pavement north of Cranbrook?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Grote Stirling: Is another definite mileage to be completed this year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Further work is to be done this year. When the matter was before the committee a year ago I expressed the hope that the work would be completed this year.


Grote Stirling: To the entrance of the park?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am afraid it will not be completed this year, but the expectation is that it will be completed in 1940.


Grote Stirling: Is the work being done under contract?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am told it is practically all being done under contract.


Grote Stirling: Does the province have to put up dollar for dollar?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They match our contribution dollar for dollar.


George Halsey Perley: The minister will recall that about four weeks ago most of the cabinet of the government of Saskatchewan were in Ottawa for a considerable time. Almost any time you could see two or three of them in the gallery, looking down on us. I understand they were here for the purpose of getting the federal government to agree to carry on certain road construction in the province. Soon after they went home the minister of highways made a statement that they had been successful, that some arrangements had been made with this government under which considerable money would be spent this season on roads running north and south. The only highway construction that will be carried on in the province will be that done under an arrangement with the federal government.
Last night the hon. member for Melfort (Mr. McLean) made a very weak plea, I thought, on behalf of a tourist highway from the international boundary, No. 1 highway north from Regina to Melfort and up to the
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Flin-Flon. Tourist traffic is important, and I am very much in favour of the government giving it encouragement. A considerable portion of this money which is to be spent in cooperation with the province will be spent on highways leading north from the international boundary, and I am particularly anxious that work should be done on the highways leading into the Moose Mountain area in the southeastern part of Saskatchewan. There we have a picturesque country, with numerous lakes. It is a well treed and rolling country and gives tourists from the United States a good impression of the scenic beauties of the province. As they proceed north on No. 1 highway they can readily enter the Qu'Appelle valley, and for scenic attractions there is no more attractive spot in the province than the Qu'Appelle lakes.
I should like to support the plea made by the hon. member for Melfort last night for development of the highway leading from Regina north into the Melfort country and on into the northeastern part of the province. It could branch off from Melfort towards Saskatoon. Undoubtedly that country should receive some benefit under this vote.
Can the minister tell me what portion of this vote will be spent in cooperation with the provincial government in the southeastern part of Saskatchewan from the international boundary north and on into the northern part of the province? I know there is a lot of competition between the two highways, one leading from Regina north, and the other leading from Moose Jaw north to Prince Albert and into the national park. I believe that the member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Ross) and members from the northwestern part of the province favour the western highway leading from Moose Jaw north. I am sorry the hon. member for Melfort is not present to support me in my plea that a considerable proportion of this vote be spent to develop highways to encourage tourist traffic in the eastern part of our province right through from the international boundary to the north.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand that the Saskatchewan government is endeavouring to make arrangements with the Department of Finance to borrow money, which we are empowered to lend them under the act administered by the Minister of Labour. We have not yet received the program or suggestions for a program from the government of Saskatchewan for expenditure under this vote. Under the arrangements with the provinces, they have to duplicate dollar for dollar the amount we provide, and the procedure is that the province shall submit for our approval its recommendations where they wish money

to be spent. Possibly they have deferred sending forward their program because they do not yet know just what amount of money they will have to expend.
I quite agree with the observations made by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle. All along I have held strongly to the view that the important thing in developing our tourist traffic is to get good roads from the international boundary into the northern parts of our provinces, and this is particularly true of the western provinces. The most attractive part of Saskatchewan from the tourist point of view, with the exception perhaps of Qu'Appelle valley and the area in the Moose Mountain district, is the more northerly part, where you find streams and lakes and rivers and forests, an ideal state of nature for those who love the outdoors. The same is largely true of Manitoba.
So far as this vote is concerned, I would remind the committee that last year was the first time that we had an appropriation for general assistance by this parliament in the development of tourist roads, and I am glad that the amount is increased this year. As time goes on the impression deepens in the minds of the Canadian people that we have an asset in our tourist possibilities which can be developed, probably to a very considerable extent. I know of no class of business that is better for the country. From present indications the outlook is that we shall have a large tourist business from the United States this year. We have alongside our border a country with 125 to 130 million people, many of whom are accustomed to travelling. Considerable numbers of those who have been accustomed to go to Europe, I am informed, will not be going this year because of the uncertainty of conditions there, so that we can look forward to a large tourist business from the United States. It is well worth while for the Canadian people to study the development of the tourist business.


George Halsey Perley: Any money spent in assisting in the development of tourist roads is money well spent. How much will be expended in Saskatchewan under this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: 


Mr. McNEVIN:: What amount of this vote will be spent in Ontario?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: 


Harry James Barber: And in British Columbia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: $340,000.


Harry James Barber: Has the provincial government submitted a program or suggestions where the money should be spent?

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Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not in its entirety, but
a portion of it will be spent on hard surfacing the road which was partly constructed last year from Blaine to Vancouver. Hon. members from British Columbia will recall that last year provision was made for a start on that road. The existing road was winding and narrow and dangerous in heavy traffic. Last year a new road was started and several miles of grading done. This season we expect that the hard surfacing of these sections will be completed.


Harry James Barber: Is the road complete, ready for hard surfacing, from Blaine to New Westminster or the bridge?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am told that the section
built last season is practically in shape for hard surfacing.


Harry James Barber: Over half of this vote
will go to that highway?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I could not say at the
moment. Probably a considerable amount will be used for that purpose. There can be little doubt, according to the information which I have been able to get, that at the present time it is a very important piece of road from the point of view of getting tourist business into British Columbia. I do not know very much about the details, but the road from the international boundary into Vancouver is probably one of the most heavily travelled roads in Canada.


Harry James Barber: I do not dispute that at
all. But last year I drew to the attention of the minister the outlet from Huntingdon, which I believe to-day is the fifth largest port of entry in Canada. It is necessary to construct only a mile or a mile and a half of road to connect that outlet with the trans-Canada highway. As I pointed out at that time, tourists coming into Canada must travel over a gravel road around a block or two, a distance of several miles, before they can get to the highway. Some years ago surveys were made and a line run direct through to the trans-Canada, requiring only the construction of a little over a mile of highway. Considerable traffic would take advantage of the road. In spite of the obstacle existing in the condition of the present road, there is to-day a large amount of traffic. Last year when I brought this to the attention of the minister he promised that he would look into it. At that time I sought information as to whether it had been recommended by the provincial government; I should like to know whether the minister is aware of any proposed 71492-298
program by the provincial government, and if there is, whether it will include this highway.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have not yet received the program for this year from the provincial government. A year ago the total appropriation by the federal government in this vote was $1,750,000. The increased appropriation places, of course, more money at the disposal of the province. Whether they will submit the project to which my hon. friend has referred, I cannot say, but I give him the assurance that we shall bring it to the attention of the provincial authorities as a project which we think should be examined.


George Halsey Perley: What is Manitoba getting under this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: 

Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch.
523. Roads-Construction, improvement and repairs of Golden-Revelstoke highway and improvements to main tourist routes from the international boundary to Banff, Yoho and Kootenay parks, $505,000.


Grote Stirling: What progress has been made on the Big Bend? Shall we be able to drive this fall from Golden to Revelstoke?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We expect that the work will be completed this fall, but I doubt whether the road will be opened for traffic this year; certainly it will not be until late in the season. It is expected that this vote will complete the work.


William Kemble Esling: I commend the minister for the activity which has been shown in the construction of this Big Bend highway. It will complete the northern connection from the national parks into Vancouver. This highway, however, is being constructed exclusively by the federal government; it is not on a dollar for dollar basis. In this vote is included the amount for the approach to the national parks from Kingsgate. Would the minister tell us what portion of the $505,000 representing this item will go towards the construction of the Big Bend highway and what portion towards the construction of the approaches from Kingagate?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There will be $315,000 for the Big Bend road and $190,000 for the other.


William Kemble Esling: Has the minister received any recommendations from British Columbia for the allocation of any sums towards the construction of tourist roads?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. As I said a moment ago, the procedure is that a province submits to the department the projects which it

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recommends should be undertaken with the expenditure of the moneys under this vote. Those for the current year have not yet come in from British Columbia.


William Kemble Esling: Except this one?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Big Bend road has been under construction for several years. The agreement to build that section of the trans-Canada highway was made in 1929. A few years later, in 1935, the agreement was enlarged to extend the mileage which will be constructed by the federal government, so that it now covers the mileage from Golden to Revelstoke. The provincial government makes no contribution to that work; it is built wholly at the expense of the federal government. The other road is also being built under an agreement with the provincial government. So that these two are outside the category of tourist projects recommended by the province.


William Kemble Esling: Everybody is delighted to see the approaching completion of the Big Bend highway. Originally the west leg was to have been completed by the provincial government and the east leg by the federal government. Complications arose, and the federal government took over the whole project, which it was originally intended to have completed in 1932. We are all glad that the federal government has been so active in completing what will be one of the most picturesque of scenic routes for tourists. But what I am interested in as representative of Kootenay West is the matter of some expenditure in the west Kootenay district. I do not want to be misunderstood. It is a sensible thing to have all the approaches to the national parks hard-surfaced as early as possible. That is being done, and I heartily approve of it. But a member would be lacking in his duty to his constituents did he not claim recognition of tourist highways which enter his district from the international boundary, to connect with the transprovincial highway. I hop'e the minister understands that there is, first of all, the trans-Canada highway, which is the Big Bend route. Then there is the transprovincial highway, the southern route, which runs along the international boundary, to which it is quite close. There are two tourist links entering Canada from the United States connecting at the international boundary with 24-foot standard hardsurfaced highways in the states of Washington, Oregon and California. There is a link from the international boundary at the out-port of Nelway, connecting with the transprovincial highway at Nelson, which is the capital of West Kootenay, and we have another

link connecting at the outport of Paterson with the transprovincial highway at Rossland. That is only about six miles, the first one being about forty-two miles.
There has been no expenditure on these tourist links, but surely the minister realizes their importance. The federal government's contribution last year to the tourist links east of Kootenay lake amounted, I believe, to $175,000, and on the dollar per dollar basis that would mean $350,000. Is that correct?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That would be another


William Kemble Esling: So that the total was $350,000. Surely it would be but a modest request for the federal government to be asked to recognize the need of tourist links, particularly those connecting with hard-surfaced roads in the United States. Last year the federal government's contribution was $175,000 and this year it is $190,000, for expenditures on highways in East Kootenay. Does not the minister think it would be reasonable to recognize those districts and communities in West Kootenay, or west of Kootenay lake, and to make some expenditure there? The expenditure of $175,000 last year and of $190,000 this year on highways east of the lake certainly warrant a request for some expenditure on the tourist links I have been discussing. I am not speaking of highways other than tourist links. Will not the minister give this request some consideration?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I shall be glad indeed to take into consideration my hon. friend's representations, but the Kingsgate Radium road, as it is called, which, under agreement with the province, we have been constructing to a hard-surfaced specification, enters British Columbia on the international boundary and ends in the national park system. The Yoho, Kootenay and Banff parks are linked together. The other road known as the Big Bend highway is a project that has been carried out by the federal government as its contribution to the trans-Canada highway in British Columbia.
My hon. friend's representations have a good deal of weight, but one finds that every section of the country, from Halifax to Vancouver, believes it has peculiar tourist attractions. It would be comparatively easy to spend a good deal of money without any great results if if were spent indiscriminately to meet the requirements of local communities. I regard this whole program of assisting in the development of tourist roads not as work extending over a year or two but as a program that should be carried out by whatever government may be in power over a period of years

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in the future until we have reached the stage where we have adequate hard-surfaced roads from the international boundary into the more northern parts of the provinces. That program must be carried out, and I think it very likely that, when these two projects are completed, my hon. friend's suggestion will receive consideration.


William Kemble Esling: Let me emphasize again the fact that the Big Bend highway does not enter into this matter at all. It is a totally different project. We are delighted to see so much progress being made on it, but at the present time the southern route is the only one from Vancouver into the national parks. It is the only route by which anyone can leave Vancouver and get to the parks. We recognize the merits of all the connections which the minister has been speaking of, all the hard-surfacing from Kingsgate and from points contiguous thereto, but you must use the southern route, the southern provincial highway, and there is no use building tourist highways unless there is a connecting link with those on the international boundary, from which the traffic comes. These two short roads from the port of Nelway to the transprovincial highway at Nelson and from the port of Paterson to the transprovincial highway at Rossland are the links which I ask this government to take into consideration, not merely as a matter of hard-surfacing but as a question of improvement in a general way. The government evidently recognized the merits of my contention in 1937 when they contributed $20,000 to the Nelway highway and $10,000 to the Rossland highway. That was on the dollar for dollar basis. The time may come when there will be no dollar for dollar contribution, and the provincial government would be doing an excellent piece of business to-day if it took advantage of that form of contribution.


Thomas Bruce McNevin: Did the minister receive from Ontario any suggestions with regard to the expenditure of that province's portion of this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; we have not yet
received any.


Thomas Bruce McNevin: I should like to offer a suggestion in that connection. Algonquin park is in Haliburton county, but there is no north and south road connecting with the park. This is a project that should receive earnest attention, and if any representations are made by the provincial government 1 should like the minister to keep it in mind.
It would be of advantage to have a road through to Whitney or some other suitable point in the park.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch.
159. Medical-Indian hospitals and general care of Indians, $1,259,215.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: As I recall the question asked last night by the hon. member for Q.u'Appelle (Mr. Perley), when this item was allowed to stand, it was as to the division of the medical and hospital costs between the Crooked Lakes, Qu'Appelle and Assiniboine reserves. I regret I have not had time to get the breakdown of costs allocated in the manner suggested by the hon. member's question. Did he include in his question the costs of the operation of the hospital at Fort Qu'Appelle?


George Halsey Perley: No, I was going to ask a question about that separately. It is the medical services of the local doctors.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Amounts paid to physicians: Assiniboine reserve, Dr. G. B. Isman, Sintaluta, $840; Crooked Lakes reserve, Dr. S. W. Baker, Whitewood, $1,741.50; Dr. G. H. Craig, Broadview, $1,395; Dr. A. H. Kendall, Broadview, $565:
Dental expenditures:	Dr. L. J. Conn of
Broadview, for clinic work on Crooked Lakes reserve and residential schools, $240, and special work, individual extractions, $175, a total of $415.
Dr. Simes, of Qu'Appelle, who is the superintendent of the hospital there, is a full time medical officer of the department and does a considerable amount of work on the reserves outside of the hospital work.


George Halsey Perley: On all the reserves?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would not say he does all the work on the reserves, but he does a considerable amount. He has the care of the hospital first, and then what time he has available is at the disposal-


George Halsey Perley: He has a salary?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: He is a full time officer.


George Halsey Perley: What is his salary?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not the detail here, but my recollec+ion is that it is $3,420 and allowances for house, fuel and light. I can have that verified, and if it is not correct I shall have the hon. member advised.


George Halsey Perley: And the dental services for Assiniboine and Qu'Appelle reserves?
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Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not the dental service for Assiniboine and Qu'Appelle renerves. I gave it a moment ago for Broadview. I can have that information also supplied to my hon. friend, if he so desires.


George Halsey Perley: I should like to have it. In respect to the hospital at Fort Qu'Appelle, I understand that good work is being done there in respect to tuberculosis cases gathered from all the reserves within a hundred miles or so; they are handling all the carrier cases, I understand. How many patients are there in the hospital at the present time? Is the present accommodation sufficient for the patients who are there or who should be taken there from the different reserves? Further, is there any likelihood of an extension or additional wing being built to accommodate the patients who should be taken care of?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; extension of the
hospital at Fort Qu'Appelle has not received consideration. I am not at the moment very familiar with the question. The average number of patients per day is 66. The number of days' treatment in the hospital in 1938-39 was 24,372. I hope the committee will understand what is meant by that. For instance, for one patient in the hospital it would mean 24,372 days; for two patients 12,186 days. In my judgment this hospital is one of the most efficiently operated that we have .in the whole Indian service.


George Halsey Perley: How many are on the hospital staff in addition to Doctor Simes?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I believe there are six nurses and a matron.
A question was asked by the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Barber) regarding dental services in British Columbia. In the fiscal year 1938-39 Doctor F. E. King, of Vancouver, for work at St. Mary's residential school mission, was paid $183, and at St. George's residential school at Lytton, $131.25. As far as the department is aware, there is no practising dentist at Lytton. Doctor A. R. Baker of Vancouver, for individual extractions for Indians at Vancouver, was paid $25.50. Otherwise all dental work in 1938-39 was done by dentists living in the districts in which it was required.


Harry James Barber: At Mission City, near St. Mary's school, there are two dentists, and also up in the district near Coqualeetza there are several. But the work has been done, I understand, by Doctor King, who travels from Vancouver to Lytton. So that the local dentists throughout the district are not getting the work except in cases of emergency, when they do it in many cases for nothing.
(Mr. Perley.]


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know the total cost of dental work for the Indians in the districts mentioned by my hon. friend.


Harry James Barber: They were very small.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At any rate the total amount drawn by Doctor King was S314.25.


Angus MacInnis: Is there any increase in the vote this year for preventive work in relation to the incidence of tuberculosis among the Indians? It is very heavy, and, I believe, increasing.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We expect to be able to appropriate out of the total vote about $75,000 more than last year.


Angus MacInnis: I believe British Columbia is the province which has been most affected so far as tuberculosis among the Indians is concerned. At the last session of the provincial legislature the matter was discussed under the estimates for the health branch. Doctor J. D. Hunter, one of the members of the legislative assembly representing the city of Victoria, stated that there were 2,600 cases of tuberculosis among the 24,600 Indians in British Columbia, which is more than one out of every ten. Because of lack of money the provincial health branch is restricted in its activity, and the $60,000 provided by the provincial branch for health work among the Indians was considered by Doctor Hunter to be, as he termed it, a mere fleabite, in dealing with the whole problem. Hon. G. M. Weir, the provincial secretary, agreed with Doctor Hunter that the situation was exceedingly serious, Doctor Hunter made the further statement that the large amount of tuberculosis among the Indians made it more difficult to deal with that disease among the white population. I think it was generally conceded that until tuberculosis in the Indian reserve was got under control it would not be possible to reduce the death rate from that disease among the whites.
I have before me the votes and proceedings of the legislature of British Columbia for November 21, 1938, in which are recorded two questions and answers. The questions were asked by Mr. Winch, member of the legislature for the constituency of Burnaby. The first of the questions was as follows:
1. What arrangements, if any, have been made between the dominion Department of Indian Affairs and the provincial Department of Health relative to the treatment of Indians suffering from tuberculosis?
The answer is fairly long; I shall not take the trouble to read it, but it gives a summary of the arrangements made between the federal

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Department of Indian Affairs and the provincial health branch. The second question was:
2. Do such arrangements assure to the Indian population tile same degree of tuberculosis control-i.e., examinations, treatment, hospitalization, follow-up and preventive service

as is furnished by the provincial government to the white population?
The answer given by the provincial secretary was just one word-an emphatic "no." In the matter of health the Indian population, who are wards of the dominion government, should receive at least the same care as the rest of the population.
In the votes and proceedings of the legislature of British Columbia for October 31, 1938, I find a question on the same subject asked by the same gentleman, Mr. Winch, and replied to by the provincial secretary. The question was:
What was the death rate from tuberculosis during the fiscal years 1936, 1937 and 1938 for whites, Indians and orientals, respectively?
To that question this startling reply, so far as it affects the Indians, -was given:
Tuberculosis mortality rates per*100,000 population, fiscal year 1935-36:	whites, 54*5;
orientals, 124-4; Indians, 648-4.


Denton Massey: Is that for the whole of Canada?


Angus MacInnis: No, just British Columbia. In some provinces it is a little worse and in others it is much better. The reply continues to give the figures for the other years:
Fiscal year 1936-37: whites, 49-5; orientals, 110-7; Indians, 826-3.
Hon. members will notice that while for orientals and whites the death rate has fallen, among the Indian population there has been a considerable increase. The figures continue:
Fiscal year 1937-38: whites, 45-8; orientals, 119-9; Indians, 885-7.
There is a further increase in the Indian population. Something should be done to deal more effectively with what is evidently a very serious state of affairs.
I have in my hand the bulletin of the Canadian Tuberculosis Association for the month of December, 1938, in which there is a report of a conference which took place in Ottawa about January 1, 1939. On this occasion the subject of tuberculosis among Indians was considered. Part of the report is as follows:
Attention was drawn to the very wide variation in the proportion of patients treated
in the different provinces. Taking the number of patients treated in proportion to the number of deaths during 1937, they are as follows:-
That is, treatment for tuberculosis and deaths from tuberculosis.
Province	Death from tuber-	Number of patients under treat-Nova Scotia.. ..	culosis, 1937 .. 14	ment, 1938 5New Brunswick ..	.. 10	18Quebec.. -	. . 47	27Ontario	.. 116	73Manitoba	.. 164	56Saskatchewan.. ..	.. 90	93Alberta	.. 136	43British Columbia..	.. 228	58
Saskatchewan has the best record of any Canadian province. It will be noticed that in Nova Scotia, which has only a small Indian population, and in Manitoba and Alberta, for every patient receiving treatment there have been three deaths. In British Columbia the situation is still worse; for every patient receiving treatment there have been four deaths. The report continues:
This shows that treatment of Indians is particularly lagging in British Columbia, Alberta and Manitoba. The committee in their memorandum suggested that this should be overcome by treating an additional 200 Indians, for which provision could be made to some extent in the general hospitals. It was the conviction of t'he committee that construction of beds for the treatment of tuberculous Indians should be carried out particularly in British Columbia and Alberta and that additional funds would be required to provide a minimum program that could hope to be effective.
It was suggested also that every attempt should be made to provide supervision and segregation on the reserves, and that a demonstration should be made of one or more reserves as to the practicability of treating cases in small buildings for this purpose on the reserves.
Suggestions were also made regarding the pupils to be admitted to spreaders' schools.
The value of prompt admission of patients to sanatoria when diagnosed was pointed out, as otherwise they are apt to be lost track of and the advantages of early diagnosis wasted, while the disease continues to spread.
What I have read indicates a serious state of affairs, and the department should take immediate steps to cope with this menace. As long as we have a high incidence of tuberculosis among our Indian population it will be that much more difficult to eradicate the disease among the white population. I believe the minister realizes the seriousness of the situation. The increase of $75,000 is encouraging, but if we had a greater increase immediately, the amount required in future years would be much less. The disease is contagious and carried from person to person. I have heard of many reports, which I have not investigated, of the bad economic conditions that prevail on the reserves. The extent
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to which tuberculosis is found among the Indians is an indication of these conditions. As everyone knows, the disease develops because of lowered resistance from insufficient nutrition. I urge upon the minister that he take active steps to deal with this matter, the urgency of which is admitted.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I agree with what the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis) has said about the seriousness of tlje tuberculosis problem among the Indians. Until a few years ago no special effort was made to cope with this problem so far as our Indian population was concerned, but in 1937 I was successful in getting a small vote passed by the house w'hich permitted surveys to be made of several schools. The surveys indicated that many of the Indian pupils were afflicted with tuberculosis. In the following year the amount was increased to $250,000 or $275,000. The expenditure of that money was carried out most carefully. We had the advantage of the advice of the provincial authorities who have to do with the tuberculosis problem. One of the most outstanding men to-day in this field of medical work is Doctor Ferguson, general superintendent of sanatoria in Saskatchewan. The late Doctor Stewart of Manitoba was also an outstanding authority, and I may say that much of the encouragement, indeed the inspiration of the department in attacking this problem, was received from him.
It is most gratifying to hear commendation of this vote and the suggestion that it should be much larger. I should have liked to see it much larger, but the present discussion indicates the way of human progress. Four or five years ago it would have been a rare occasion indeed to hear any request, either in this house or in a provincial legislature, that appropriations be made to meet the tuberculosis problem among the Indians. I think public opinion is definitely fixed in connection with this matter. First, there is the humanitarian point of view. As the hon. member for Vancouver East has said, the Indian is the ward of the state and the state has an obligation not only with respect to health but with respect to other matters. Then there is the second and perhaps more practical reason, that efforts to clear up tuberculous infection among the white population was to a large measure nullified by the infection among the Indians. It wTas found that infection was being spread from the reserves to the whites in the adjoining districts. I remember the eloquent speech which the hon. member for Renfrew South (Mr. McCann) (Mr. Maclnnis.]
made two years ago when this first small vote was under consideration. I should like to see the vote increased and the work expanded. Perhaps some think we have proceeded rather slowly, but we want to be certain that we are working along the right lines.
As I have stated, the initial vote was expended upon survej's of the schools, carried out in cooperation with the tuberculosis clinics in the different provinces. I should like to pay a tribute to the provincial authorities for the splendid cooperation they gave and are giving in connection with the surveys of the schools, and indeed the whole problem. Last year surveys were made of a few reserves in order to obtain information as to the degree of infection on the reserves. As a result of consideration given to the matter by the medical men concerned, we are establishing a small tuberculosis hospital at a place called Fisher Branch in Manitoba. We shall be able, when we get the results from this hospital, to check the costs and the success of the treatment against the treatment of patients, for instance, in the sanatoria of the various provinces. It is a problem which has interested me greatly, and I am delighted to see the interest which has been aroused in it throughout the country. I am also very grateful to the medical profession for the assistance which it has given to the department practically throughout the whole dominion.


Angus MacInnis: I wish to thank the minister for his very encouraging words. The department of health in British Columbia made an extensive survey in 1936-37, probably with the assistance received from the federal government, and it was ascertained that many Indians on the reserve had died without receiving any treatment whatsoever.
I have in my hand a bulletin of the Canadian Tuberculosis Association for the month of December, 1938, which contains a short table giving the tuberculosis deaths for the whole of Canada and the death rates from the disease amongst the Indians in the various provinces in 1936-37. I should be very glad to put this on the record for the information of hon. members, if I might be allowed to do so. The death rate among the Indians shows an alarming state of affairs, as the minister says.


Frederick George Sanderson: By unanimous consent.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Angus MacInnis: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The tables follow:

Supply-Mines-Soldier Settlement
Tuberculosis Deaths in Canada, 1936-1937
Canada	
Prince Edward Island.. ..
Nova Scotia	
New Brunswick	
Quebec	
Ontario	
Manitoba	
Saskatchewan	
Alberta	
British Columbia	
Rate per
Total deaths	100	,0001936	1937	1936	19376,763	6,650	61-4	59'961	65	66-3	69-9485	457	90-3	84-3357	383	82-0	87-02,890	2,769	93-3	88'31,327	1,315	36	35-4420	426	59-0	59-4279	296	29-9	31-5382	339	49-4	43-6562	600	74-9	79-9
Deaths exclusive Rate exclusive
of Indians		of Indians	
1936	1937	1936	19376,015	5,845	55	53-160	65	65	69-9478	443	89	82-2348	373	80	85-12,847	2,722	92	87-11,217	1,199	33	32-5259	262	37	37-3205	206	22	22-2224	203	29	26-6377	372	52	51-1
Deaths and Death Rates for Indians, 1936-1937
Population
Deaths	population	1931 census1936	1937	1936	1937	Prince Edward Island	233Nova Scotia	14	350	700	2,191New Brunswick	10	500	625	1,685Quebec	
Ontario	47	349	382	12,312110	366	386	30,368Manitoba	164	1,045	1,066	15,417Saskatchewan	
74	90	496	600	15,268Alberta	136	1,073	906	15,258British Columbia	
185	228	755	930	24,599Canada	805	639	688	117,331


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Soldier Settlement of Canada.
373. To provide for the cost of administration of soldier settlement and British family settlement, $621,020.
Grote Stirling: A certain amount of
criticism is continually being directed to those who take over the salvaged lands under the soldier settlement board. In justice to the board I should say that I do not think that criticism is always justified when one has access to all the facts. But in British Columbia, and I speak with knowledge of the southern part of the province, there is insistent criticism with regard to the people who are located on salvaged lands. Often they are poor lands, and that may have been the reason they were given up by the soldier occupant. Criticism exists also with regard to those who occupy these lands, particularly in view of the irritation caused by the nazi behaviour of Germans. Up till about a year ago German settlers were coming in, some of them taking up settlement board lands, and we were quite ready to believe that they were going to endeavour at least to become decent Canadian citizens. Then with the incidents around the Munich affair, and so on, reference to which I made the other day, the feeling against the occupants of some of these lands is getting extremely strong. The day before yesterday I received a letter from the reeve of Summer-land, dealing with this matter. I should like
to read two paragraphs, one dealing with lands occupied by Germans, which lands are under the control of the soldier settlement board:
The point I specially want to mention just here is the attitude of the soldier settlement hoard. In several cases they have taken lands away from the soldier settlers but later have sold these lands to Germans at a very much lower price, and I am sure that some of the soldier settlers would have remained on the lands if they had had the same offer that the Germans got. But my point is that the dominion government is actually encouraging this settlement of Germans by selling them the lands. Surely it would be better for the country even if the lands were left idle, than to have this big influx of Germans who never will be good citizens. My municipal council has for some time refused to sell tax sale lands to Japanese, and the same treatment should be given to the Germans by the government. I also understand that both the railroads are encouraging Germans to come to Canada on some form of settlement scheme, and only a short time ago were actually advertising in German papers.
What has brought this up at this _ time is that the soldier settlement board has just sold a property to a German, and the veterans in particular are very much up in arms about it.
I should be glad if the minister would turn his attention to this question of the salvaged soldier settlement board lands. Of course, he cannot be responsible for incoming Germans who take up other lands, but I want to draw the minister's attention to this objection raised by the reeve of a municipality.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I shall be glad to take into consideration the representations mads by the

Supply-Mines-Soldier Settlement
hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling). In the administration of soldier settlement I am informed that no settler is asked to leave his land unless he either refuses to pay anything or it or has no prospect whatever of making a success of it. Naturally there are cases of this kind. The department is dealing every day with repossessed lands, in some cases transferring them back to the municipalities, in others making a sale and salvaging as much as possible out of the land. I cannot speak with knowledge of the particular cases cited by my hon. friend, but I shall have inquiry made into them, and if my hon. friend wishes I shall be glad to have the director of soldier settlement send him a report dealing with the particular representations he has made.


Grote Stirling: I shall be glad if the minister will do that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Many of the soldier settlers are taking advantage of the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act to arrange a composition of their debts, and they are being encouraged to do so. I do not know that there is anything I can add. I do not think there is much foundation for the statement that these lands are being sold to incoming German settlers.


Harry James Barber: How many soldier settlers were turned off their lands last year because of their inability to meet their payments or the conditions of their contracts?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not the actual number here, but I am informed it was quite small. A very large number of them are taking advantage of the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act to secure relief from what they consider too heavy a load.


Harry James Barber: I understand that the number in the lower mainland of British Columbia was considerable. I suppose the minister has not the figure?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, I have not.


Harry James Barber: The complaint is that much of the so-called salvaged land has been sold at prices less perhaps than what the soldier's balance of payments amounted to. The soldier settlers think it unfair that they should be put off the land and then have it handed over, in some cases, to foreigners at less than the amount the soldier owed.


Thomas Reid: What was the number of soldier settlers in British Columbia applying to come under the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, and what amount was granted by way of reduction of their debts?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that the total number of cases in British Columbia which were settled as of March 31, 1939, was 479. The total reduction was $868,990. There are pending cases, as of April 30, 1939, involving $232,452.


Harry James Barber: Has the minister taken into consideration the restoration of the dollar for dollar bonus which existed for a few years and was a considerable help to those who were far behind in their payments?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. No consideration has been given to that during the past year. The matter was fully discussed in this chamber a year ago, when the dollar for dollar privilege had terminated. Soldier settlers who were in difficulties were encouraged to secure an adjustment under the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, which was a much more equitable way of dealing with their problem than the dollar for dollar bonus. As a matter of fact, the bonus was going to quite a considerable number of soldier settlers who were in a position to pay the amounts they owed, and while it was a great boon to them, very often it did not give sufficient assistance to men who were hopelessly behind. However, as my hon. friend will recall, that was fully discussed a year ago.


Harry James Barber: What were the total receipts from all soldier settlers during the last year as compared with the amount received the last year the bonus system was in effect?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In the fiscal year 1937-38 the total receipts, in round numbers were $1,408,000; in 1938-39 they were $1,372,000. The figures show a drop of between $30,000 and $40,000, which I think is very creditable when one considers that conditions in the fiscal year 1938-39 were not nearly as good as they were in 1937-38.


Mr. FAIR:: What percentage of the soldier settlers made their payments for last year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am not certain that we have that information.


Robert Fair: Does the minister have the number of those who were able to make payments?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am afraid I have not that information here.


Robert Fair: What percentage of the original soldier settlers are still occupying their lands and still in debt to the settlement board?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Approximately 9,600 I am informed, out of an original number of about 25,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Soldier Settlement.
647. To provide for the payment to the government of the United Kingdom on account of losses under the 3 000 British family agreement of August 20, 1924, and the New Brunswick 500 British family agreements of August 4, 1927, and August 27, 1935-further amount required, $30,000.
Grote Stirling: This is an annual obligation, is it not?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. This is the adjustment under the arrangements made with the British government on the 3,000 British family settlement scheme.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Soldier Settlement.
456. To provide for soldier land settlement and British family settlement net advances, $183,000.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is the item in the main estimates having to do with provision for soldier land settlement and British family settlement, net advances, for taxes, and some other items.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Marine service.
657. Life saving service, including rewards for saving life-further amount required, $5,500.
Angus MacInnis: What is this for?


Clarence Decatur Howe: These are two items the necessity for which arose late in the year. One is for improvements to the launching slip at the Bamfield life saving station which became unusable. The cost is SI,500. The other is for a road giving access to the life saving equipment on the west coast of Vancouver island, which was washed out this summer.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway service.
659. Additional amount, in excess of the sum of $350,000 already appropriated under vote No. 444, to provide for radio broadcasting expenses in connection with the visit to Canada of their majesties the king and queen, $50,000.
Abraham Albert Heaps: This relates to the visit
of their majesties. Could the royal train be put on exhibition instead of being put out of commission as soon as the king and queen leave? A good many people would like to see the royal train, as was apparent when crowds tried to catch a glimpse of it as it passed through the various centres. Would it be possible to put it on exhibition in different railway centres? Perhaps it would not be
I,	1939	4751
Supply-Transport-Railway Service
amiss to charge a small fee, the proceeds of which could be used for some national charitable purpose.


Thomas Reid: You would need a good many guards.


Abraham Albert Heaps: The hon. member may be right, but I have more confidence in the people than that.


Thomas Reid: They nearly stole the engine of the Royal Scot when it was here; it was necessary to hide it.


Abraham Albert Heaps: The department might be able to provide some extra guards.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no new equipment on the royal train. It is all standard equipment supplied in part by both railways. The locomotives have been refurbished for the trip but they are part of the standard equipment of the two railways. The train is their joint property and its disposition after the trip will be a matter for them to determine. However, I shall be glad to pass on the suggestion that it be put on exhibition and that a small fee be charged, to be devoted to a charitable purpose.


Denton Massey: Has application been made to the minister, or does he know whether application has been made, for the train to be put on exhibition as part of the Canadian National exhibit in Toronto late in August or in early September?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Some representations were made in a vague way. They came to me through an advertising agency. It was suggested that the motif of the fair would be transportation. It was suggested that only the locomotive and certain other equipment, not the entire train, be put on exhibition. I believe that each railway is sending to the New York world's fair one of the engines that pulled the royal train.


Denton Massey: I take it from what the minister has said that if application were made to the railways to have the royal train put on exhibition at Toronto, it would meet with his approval.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Personally I should not have the slightest objection, but one car is the Canadian National president's, another the Canadian Pacific president's, and two of them are the property of the governor general. These gentlemen might object to having their cars kept out of their own service for a considerable period. However, if any request is made, it will be given careful consideration


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]


Supply-Transport-Air Service
Railway service.
660. To provide for contributions to the cost of deferred railway projects, not to exceed the estimated cost of labour directly employed -further amount required, $400,000.
Grote Stirling: What is this for?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps that could be held over for the time being.
Item stands.
Air service.
401. Air service administration, $10,725.


Denton Massey: Before we take the air service items will the minister make a brief statement as to the progress made by the Trans-Canada Air Lines to date?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have brought the Trans-Canada Air Lines to the point where we have the landing fields completed up to a satisfactory standard, from Vancouver to Montreal and Toronto. The radio beam is completed for that distance, and I am told that perhaps it is the most modem equipment that has been installed. The weather service is operating and has been brought to a high standard of efficiency. The mail service started on the regular schedule on March 1 of this year, and the passenger service started on April 1. From the first of April to the last report I had two or three days ago the efficiency was 99-2 per cent of scheduled trips completed. The Post Office have expressed a good deal of pleasure at the manner in which the volume of air mail is building up. The planes are carrying to-day an average of about 1,300 pounds daily. Passenger traffic has spectacularly exceeded expectations. Before the passenger service began, I spent a good deal of time explaining to people that they could not travel by airways because we were not taking passengers; now I spend about as much time explaining that they cannot travel because there are no vacant seats on the planes. The results so far have been excellent. At the moment we are engaged in extending the service to the maritimes. We are completing facilities, both landing fields and beams, at Moncton, Blissville, and Megantic; we are improving municipal airports at Charlottetown, New Glasgow and Halifax. The Saint John airport was brought up to standard last year, and we plan to use the national defence airport at Sydney. It is expected that our communications will be installed there and weather service provided so that we can commence operations not later than September 1 of this year.

As far as other services go, the Trans-Canada are planning a direct Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto service, which will be extended very shortly to connect at Detroit and Buffalo with the planes of air lines of the United States.


Denton Massey: Daily service only?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think on the short runs, particularly the run to Buffalo, there will be more than a daily service. How many schedules will be put on will depend on the patronage. We look on that as a very excellent run.


Harry James Barber: Are any extra machines being put on?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, an order was placed some time ago for five additional large Lockheeds, which are standard equipment on the run. They will be put into the service as soon as they are delivered. The first delivery is scheduled for July 1, and I think all five will be delivered in July. At the moment we are rather short of equipment for the demands we have on the service.


Harry James Barber: Would they be to increase the Trans-Canada service or would they be used more on the side lines?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is hoped to put that type of equipment on all o'ur runs, chiefly for the Trans-'Canada service, but the new planes will also be used from Lethbridge to Edmonton and from Vancouver to Seattle. We wish eventually to have all our equipment of one standard. It cheapens maintenance and improves the efficiency of the pilots.


Harry James Barber: On some of the United States lines they have extra planes for use during the busy season. Sometimes coming through from Salt Lake City to Chicago I notice two or three planes, one following the other. They regulate it according to the traffic, they tell me. Has the minister in view the use of extra machines to take care of the increased traffic during the busy season?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We do not start out extra planes just because there is an extra load, but we do intend practically to double the service between Toronto, Montreal and Winnipeg. I am hoping that in the near future we can have a daylight run as well as a night run from eastern to western points. I think from a passenger point of view a daylight run would be exceedingly popular.

Supply-Transport-Air Service


Denton Massey: I am sure the committee has been most interested in the remarks of the minister. When does he anticipate that the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal run will be in operation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The only facility left to be completed, I understand, is the building of one radio beacon station. I am told that the latest decision is to start the run over the present beam, that is, by way of Ottawa to Killaloe to Toronto, until the new beam station can be put in operation; so that that service will probably start in two or three weeks on the run from Montreal to Toronto. It would be a morning departure and evening departure from each end.


Denton Massey: As the minister is aware, this is practically June 1 and the lack of communication at present between Toronto and Buffalo and Detroit and other points where Trans-Canada airways can be reached from the United States probably results in the loss of considerable business. Since the peak of the tourist business is close at hand, could a temporary arrangement be made for what might be called a jitney service between Toronto and Buffalo, and perhaps other points, so that Trans-Canada airways will get the benefit of the summer tourist travel?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We could start both those routes to-morrow, but we have not finally completed our arrangements with the United States government. We have every reason to believe that by the end of next week that can be taken care of, and if so, we shall lose no time in beginning these international services. I quite appreciate the point that we are coming to the season which is most popular for air travel.


Denton Massey: I think both the minister and the management of the Trans-Canada airways are to be congratulated on their achievements up to the present. I was particularly interested in the statement that passenger travel has been greater than was anticipated. We all realize that the cost of running a plane is about the same, whether two or twenty are operating, so far as the necessity for landing fields and the like is concerned. Has the department evolved any figure as to the additional cost per plane for additional planes used in the service? You are carrying- is it sixteen passengers to the plane?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Ten.


Denton Massey: At a cost of so much per passenger mile, whereas you might be carrying twenty in two planes at very slight additional cost, and the revenue of course would
be considerably greater. Has the minister determined the break-even point? In other words, we can build up the service to what point before it becomes necessary to increase
capacity?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The cost of additional planes is not very much in excess of the cost of the pilots and the fuel, except for such items as depreciation and Ibsurance, which of course apply by the mile. Studies of these factors are now being made in respect of various routes. There are factors which make the figure vary for different routes. I have not that information at hand, although recently we were examining the extra schedules that seemed to be warranted, and I expect to have information requested by my hon. friend in the course of a day or two. Possibly I can give it before these estimates are finished.


Denton Massey: The planes are running at capacity now?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, reasonably, having in
mind the fact that some space must be kept for short haul passengers as well as for long haul. But we have had a surprising amount of long haul business, and there is no doubt it would be profitable at the moment to put on additional equipment if we had it.


Denton Massey: Is there any difficulty in getting delivery of additional equipment?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no undue delay.
We can get it in about three or four months from the date of order.


Denton Massey: What is the cost of the
flying unit itself?


Clarence Decatur Howe: About $130,000.


Denton Massey: Has there been any change in that price since the original planes were purchased?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; we are buying to-day
at practically the original price.
Mr. MASSEY': I did not know whether, with the increased production, the price had come down and therefore orders could be placed more economically.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think not. If anything,
the demand for military planes has stiffened passenger plane prices. I have heard of no reduction. Of course it should be remembered that we are handicapped, as compared with the United States lines, in that there is a thirty per cent duty added to our costs. That is one difficulty we have in showing
71492-299}

Supply-Transport-Air Service
comparative costs with United States lines. Nevertheless, our costs are reasonably comparable with those of the service to the south.


Denton Massey: Have any defects shown
up in the present equipment, or is it satisfactory in every way?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I discussed the matter with
the management when t^ey suggested ordering more planes, and they assured me that if they had the whole thing to do over again they would choose this plane. It is particularly adapted to the service, and it has been improved somewhat from the first plane which was turned out. As a matter of fact we took practically the first plane built. Improvements have been made, such as slotting the wings, and relocating the landing lights on the wings. To-day we believe it is one of the best aeroplanes built, from the point of view of air worthiness. It has the great advantage over most planes that it can take a very large load of gasoline. We have no difficulty in flying, non-stop, Toronto to Winnipeg. In fact we were doing it for a week or two when some of the fields up north were not usable on account of melting snow. It has the advantage that if anything happened in northern Ontario, where we have only a single beam, we have ample gasoline to fly south far enough to pick up another beam and find a landing field there.


Denton Massey: I do not wish to delay the minister's estimates, but His Majesty the King is speaking on the radio at six o'clock, and in view of the fact that some of us are exceedingly interested in this item I wondered if we might call it six o'clock.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Frederick George Sanderson: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Mr. BROOKS:: I understand Moncton is
to be the maritime terminus; is that correct?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Moncton is to be the hub
of the service. A plane is to operate, nonstop, from Montreal to Moncton. From there the trans-Canada service will go to cities such as Saint John, Halifax, Charlottetown, New Glasgow, Sydney, and perhaps one or two other points. The mail will be redistributed at Moncton.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: But it is the Trans-Canada Air Lines which will conduct the service on branch lines from Moncton to Halifax and Saint John? It will not be conducted by some other air service?
(Mr. Howe.]


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Trans-Canada service
will hold the mail contract for those runs. It is probable that the runs, in the initial stages at least, will be sublet to a private contractor; but of course the mail contract will be held for Trans-Canada, and the service can be taken over by Trans-Canada at any time, if it seems desirable so to do.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Have any tenders been
called as yet for contracts for branch services?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
. 408. Airways and airports; construction and improvements including lighting and radio facilities (capital), $1,722,400.
Harry James Barber: I should like to bring to the attention of the minister once more a landing field of which he has heard before. It is known as a fog-bound, water-soaked landing field. When the matter was up before, the minister said that he had not had anything to do with the establishment of a field at this particular point, that it had been done under the supervision of the Minister of National Defence. I think we exonerated the minister of blame in that particular. In reply to a question asked, however, I find that last year $15,883.98 was expended on this field, bringing the total cost up to $89,005.39. Does this expenditure complete the field, or does the minister anticipate further expenditures this year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The field to-day is completed. The additional sum was not all used last year. We have completed the field so that it is in first-class condition as an intermediate airport. It is useful in that it is the last intermediate field before reaching Vancouver, and an alternative field for that city. Of course it is inherent to the operation of the service that we have many intermediate fields which we do not use often. In fact I believe there are several on which a Trans-Canada plane has not landed; nevertheless they are there to be used in an emergency. We shall be very happy if an emergency never arises. However, Langley Prairie is what we call a first-class emergency airport.


Harry James Barber: I was there in March, and I found they were cultivating it again. What happened to the seeding down operations of last year? I understand that this year they are reseeding, relevelling or doing something of the kind. Is there anyone in the minister's

Companies Act
department who will say that one of the fourteen Lockheed planes could land on that field?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have sitting in front of me the authority who can say whether they can or cannot land on that field, and he assures me that when the seeding is finished and the growth developed, any plane could land there. He .[DOT]'ays it is a first-class intermediate field.


Harry James Barber: Well, that may be the opinion of your officer, but it is not the opinion of men who are operating planes in British Columbia, because of the hill close to the field, the air currents, and other obstructions. I was interested to know whether the department had completed the field, and whether at the present time they are cultivating or relevelling it, as they were last March when I drove past. If it is to be completed, how much is to be spent?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have no appropriation for it this year. March was in the last fiscal year; there was an appropriation at that time. I am told by my officers that the field is finally seeded.


Frederick George Sanderson: Shall the item carry?


Mr. CASSELMAN:: May the item carry subject to a question being asked by an hon. member who is before a committee at the present time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Mr. McIVOR:: When does the minister expect to have the service opened at Fort William?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are busy locating an intermediate field between Sioux Lookout and Fort William. The hope is to call for tenders shortly, and we expect to have the service to Fort William this fall.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: It will be a fine boost to the service when it starts.


Harry James Barber: It was reported last year that on account of fog one of the Trans-Canada planes took off from Lethbridge, travelled as far as Vancouver, could not land and had to return to Lethbridge. It could not land on any intermediate field.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the speaker resumed the chair and the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, April 28, consideration of the motion of Mr. Raymond for the second reading of Bill No. 31, to amendi the Companies Act, 1934.
Mr. HUGHES CLEAVER (Halton):: Mr. Speaker, the amendments to the Companies Act proposed by the bill now before the house are obviously made with a view to preventing any profiteering at the expense of labour. By its terms, the operation of the bill is confined to companies receiving tariff protection, in whole or in part, upon the goods they manufacture. It is a well-known fact that industries which request tariff protection do so for the express purpose of enhancing their profits, either by way of obtaining for themselves the entire domestic market and in that way stepping up production, or by increasing the selling prices of their goods by the assistance of tariff protection.
It is apparent that the sponsor of this bill believes that when tariff protection is given, amounting virtually to a subsidy collected by the company interested from the consuming public, this privilege should carry with it a corresponding responsibility toward the employees of the company concerned. There cannot be any other justifiable reason for the imposition of a protective tariff except that it gives the manufacturer an opportunity to give employment to Canadian workmen. It has consequently always been my contention that tariff protection should never exceed a fair proportion of the wage content of the goods. The sponsor apparently believes, and I think correctly, that there should be a responsibility on the part of these companies, first, to treat their employees fairly, second, to see that their capital stock is not watered, and third, that the consumers shall not be charged ton much for goods sold under the shelter of tariff protection.
I am wholeheartedly in support of the intent of this bill, my only criticism being that it does not go quite far enough. I believe most fair-minded manufacturers would be ready to support it. It is obviously not directed at the manufacturer who is doing his part to build up Canada; it is directed at the slacker who is using tariff protection to make excess profits. Sections 2 and 3 of the bill provide that additional information shall be given in
Companies Act

the returns made by companies which are protected wholly or in part by the customs tariff. These returns will have to disclose the purchase price paid for capital stock, whether in cash or otherwise. Obviously this section strikes at stock watering and stock splitting.
Most people in Canada to-day agree that our present problems arise not out of any inability to produce goods but rather from a lack of buying power in the hands of the general public. In my opinion one of the major contributing factors to this lack of buying power is the mass accumulation of wealth in the hands of a few. By big business practices, by cartels and combines, by tariff protection and other such practices, we have permitted certain individuals in Canada to take to themselves more than their fair share of the annual wealth produced in this country. It must be obvious to everyone that this practice can be carried to the point where there will not be enough left to go round for the masses. The sponsor of the bill gave a striking illustration of how tariff protection had been used by the textile industry to make excess profits which resulted in stock splitting and stock watering. I should like to place on record particulars of what has happened in another industry.
Imperial Oil stock, which was par value $1,000 in 1914, is to-day worth something over $20,000. This increase has been brought about through stock splitting and the issue of bonus stock. In 1915 a bonus of a share for each share held was issued. In 1919 the stock was split four for one. In 1925 it was again split four for one, and the same thing was done in 1929. The result is that ten shares which had a par value of $100 each in 1914 are represented to-day by 1,280 shares with a par value of $25 each. Based on to-day's market quotation, these shares are worth over $20,000. In addition to this tremendous increase in capitalization, considerable sums have been paid in dividends. I should like to place on record the dividends of the last four years. In 1935, stock which was worth $1,000 in 1914 received dividends amounting to $1,600; in 1936 another $1,600 was paid; in 1937 another $1,600, and in 1938, another $1,600.
No one can convince me that either the labour employed by this company, or the consuming public, have received fair treats ment at the hands of this company. Otherwise such an enhancement of capital could not have occurred and such large dividends could not have been paid. When stock watering and stock splitting is permitted it is my submission that the restraining influence of public opinion is removed from the operations of that company. I agree that

there is little we can do about it now-it is practically water under the bridge; it is virtually impossible to squeeze out the water that has been poured into the capitalization of many of our companies in the past, because the stock is now in the hands of the general public, and the innocent shareholder of to-day had nothing whatever to do with the manipulations of the past. But I do submit, Mr. Speaker, that while we can do nothing about what has happened, we should at least profit by the lessons of the past and make it impossible for any company in the future, certainly one incorporated under the Dominion Companies Act, either to water its stock, or to declare a stock bonus or to pay out profits to shareholders except by way of the cash dividend route. Then the records of the company will be plain at all times for anyone to see, and the restraining effect of public opinion will be ever present. Just as soon as a company started to declare dividends of twenty or thirty or forty or fifty per cent, as they would have to do if we did not permit this stock watering, public opinion would demand a reduction in the selling price of its goods, labour would demand an increase in wages, and both these things would be beneficial to the general economy.
Coming to the next amendment proposed by the bill, it provides in section 2 for disclosure of:
The names and addresses of the persons who at the date of the return are the directors of the company and the remuneration of each such director.
There again is another instance of men taking advantage of their positions to extract from labour and from the general consuming public money to which they are not entitled. It is perfectly obvious that if you pay a director a fabulous amount, far in excess of what he is actually earning and contributing to the company by way of services, someone has to pay for it, and the someone is the general public and the labouring employees of the company.


Richard Langton Baker: May I make an observation to the hon. gentleman? The sponsor of the bill wishes the names and addresses of the persons who at the date of the return are the directors of the company, the remuneration of each such director to be disclosed. The income tax branch takes good care to receive all that in detail every year.


Mr. DUPUIS:: That is confidential.


Richard Langton Baker: They have the information now.


Vincent Dupuis: But it is confidential.

Companies Act


Hughes Cleaver: The hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Baker) is perhaps correct; otherwise I know he would not make the statement. But if we gather this information all in one place where the public can see it, it will be available to all. While the information may be received already through other channels, there can be no objection to any director who is receiving legitimate fees disclosing the amount which he is receiving. Here again no argument need be advanced by me in support of the proposed amendment.
The next amendment requires that there shall be disclosed-
The names and addresses of the persons who at the date of the return or summary are shareholders of the company and the number of shares held by each of them. In the event of these shares being held in trust by an individual or a corporation, the return or summary shall show the names and addresses of the persons for whom the same are held in trust.
This is an amendment, again, which strikes at a practice of big business which is not in the public interest. I imagine what the sponsor of the bill had in mind was the fact that the profits of some companies are not shown where they were earned, but are deflected or transferred to some other company. This practice arises most often in connection with subsidiaries manufacturing products which are sold to the parent company, which in turn further processes them or resells them to the public. There should not be the slightest objection to an amendment requiring the disclosure of all instances of interlocking directorates and interlocking shareholders.
The final, and in my opinion the most important, clause of the bill requires the company to make an annual return giving full particulars as to the working conditions of its employees, the hours of labour and the wages paid by the industry, and to furnish as well a copy of the annual financial statement showing the profits and losses. It is common knowledge to everyone that labour makes just as important a contribution to the manufacture of goods as does capital. Some manufacturers have recognized this and have set up advisory committees of employees, pension and profit-sharing schemes, realizing, on the one hand, that labour through its contribution to the production of goods is entitled to these benefits, and, on the other hand, that labour can make a real contribution to the management of industry. In the case of one or two companies where these plans have been put into operation, the results have been extremely beneficial.
I have in my hand a pamphlet issued by Dominion Foundries and Steel Company, of Hamilton, a progressive and forward-looking company which has gone as far, perhaps as any other Canadian industry in advancing the rights of labour and in showing an appreciation of the assistance which labour can render to industry. Under their scheme an employee who has been in the employ of the company for the necessary period of time is permitted to set up a savings fund for himself, to which he contributes five per cent of his wages. In return the company pays into that fund, up to ten per cent of its profits, as much as four times the amount which the employee contributes to the fund. This, I am informed, has had a tremendous effect in stepping up the efficiency of labour, and I venture to say that that profit-sharing plan has not cost the company anything. In addition to the savings fund scheme, the employee is covered by $2,000 of life insurance, and there are sick benefits and other advantages to the worker.
Under the new section 83A which the sponsor proposes to add to the Companies Act, no company shall be permitted to declare any dividends to shareholders until it has complied with these different regulations and supplied the necessary information. My only fear is that in drafting section 83A, sufficient care has not been taken to clothe the minister with the necessary power to withhold his consent, nor is there anything in the bill to indicate upon what basis he is to withhold his consent. My suggestion to the sponsor is that he should carefully consider this section when we are in committee of the whole on the bill. If amendments are necessary, they should be made to put teeth into the measure so that we shall be assured of the benefits it is intended to convey.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: Mr. Speaker, with your permission I should like to speak from a seat other 'than my own. I must admit that it is a great inspiration to stand on the side of the chamber which is to your right, sir, and see the intelligence in the royal corner which is the best attended part of this house.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Which corner?


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: As I listened the other evening to the sponsor of this bill, my heart rose to its proper place of intelligence and judgment and said, "God bless that man; he has earned his right to a position in the largest group in this house, the group which believes that the man who does an honest day's work should have an honest day's pay." We believe
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that in the manufacture of goods there are four parties vitally interested: first, the man who puts up the money; second, the 'brains that run the business; third, the toiler, the man who makes the efforts of the other two worth while; and fourth, the consumer. As I understand him, the sponsor of this bill says that two parties have been wronged, namely, the consumer and the toiler; and any man in our great country who tries to build up a Christian home and has a wife and a fine lot of little children growing up around him should have the support of this house, and I think he will have it. I am going to support this bill if I get the chance; if I do not get it this year I am going to support it next year, whether here or not, and I am going to support any measure of this kind which tries to give an honest toiler an honest day's pay.


Hon. FERNAND RINFRET (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, I share the opinion
which has been expressed by the exiled member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor) who is on this side of the chamber, in complimenting and congratulating the hon. member for Beauharnois-Laprairie (Mr. Raymond) upon having brought this matter before the house, and especially upon the extremely impressive speech with which he supported this bill when he introduced it some weeks ago. In a way it is a pity that these public bills moved by hon. members come only at very considerable intervals, and that we are likely to lose sight of them from one week to another until they spring up again at a time when the session is nearing its end and it is not always possible to give them the consideration which some of them deserve. I am glad, however, to see that this bill has been called early tonight; and perhaps the house will permit me, while expressing my opinions on the different sections of the bill, to make sure that my speech is over before nine o'clock, so that at least so far as I am concerned I shall not stand in the way of the house expressing its opinion in the matter.
I said that the hon. member for Beau-harnois supported this bill in a very able way. Perhaps I should qualify that statement and say that he presented the house with a picture of conditions in the textile industry which, I am sure, immensely impressed the house, and also the people, if I may judge from editorials published in certain newspapers. But there is one thing which he has not done. He has not discussed the bill itself. In other words he has vividly depicted the evil he wants to cure, but he has not discussed the remedy which he proposes, and it is my ungrateful task to submit

to the house to-night, to the best of my ability, that the bill, at least in its present form, will hardly meet the requirements, and to suggest that if the house gives it second reading it should be amended considerably before it goes on the statute book.
The object of the bill, as expressed in the explanatory notes, is:
... to amend The Companies Act ... so as to enable the Secretary of State to obtain information on the business and management of the industries afforded protection under the customs tariff, with a view to having control over the profits of such companies and over the payment of dividends, and also with a view to ascertaining whether these companies fulfil their obligations with respect to their employees and the public.
I may have time during the course of my remarks to show that some of the information which it is sought to obtain through this bill is already furnished to the government through other departments, if not the Secretary of State's department. But that is not the main point.
As far as the bill would merely impose upon the companies the obligation of filing with the Secretary of State the very fullest statement as to their business, I wrould not offer the least objection to it. I do not think that I would even consider objecting to section 4, which asks for extended information as to the wages paid to the working men, the hours of work, and all that concerns the labour element in the industry. I believe that there can be no objection at all, even from a constitutional point of view, to the filing of such information with the Secretary of State. But when the Secretary of State is asked to take that information into account in order to form an opinion as to whether a company shall or shall not pay a dividend, it is a different matter. In other words, the Secretary of State is asked not only to gather information as to the operations of the company, the hours of work and the wages paid, but also to express his opinion as to whether these wages are sufficient, as to whether the working conditions are proper, and, according to the way he thinks about these matters, to consent or to withhold his consent to the payment by the company of its regular dividends. Here we should be entering a hazardous field, from the purely constitutional point of view. I took the stand-and I believe the hon. member, who has been discussing this bill with me on several occasions and has shown a splendid spirit of cooperation in every way, for which I wish to pay him credit, agrees with me- that it would be primarily for the provinces to say whether proper wages are being paid to

Companies Act
working men in the different industries, and in a general way to supervise the working conditions of those industries.
But my main remarks must bear on the first section of the bill, which is the essential one. I will read it; it is not very long. The proposed new section, 83A, is set out as follows:
No public company manufacturing or making goods protected in whole or in part by the customs tariff may declare and pay dividends until the return or summary required under section one hundred and twenty-one of this act has been submitted to the Secretary of State-
That is the section which calls for additional information, including all the information concerning the wages and working conditions in the industry. Section 83A says further:
-and until the written consent of the Secretary of State as to such declaration and payment of dividends has been obtained.
In other words, the bill proposes to vest in the Secretary of State the authority either to consent to the declaration of dividends or to withhold that consent with respect to all companies enjoying tariff protection, and the bill does not even define what is meant by tariff protection. I do not know what amendments may be suggested in that regard, but as it stands it would mean that if the bill were accepted, no company enjoying the smallest degree of tariff protection could declare a dividend unless the Secretary of State gave his consent to such declaration.
Now I am a very modest man, and I say that this is an authority which no secretary of state should look for, and if any secretary of state ever sought it, no parliament should grant it. It would constitute such an authority over the conduct of industry throughout the country that parliament will readily see the danger of placing in the hands of one minister, however able or scrupulous he might be, so powerful a weapon. But, further, I submit that no secretary of state could discharge the duties involved in this proposal in a manner that would be satisfactory to parliament and to the public. This bill would impose upon the minister in charge of the department the novel and onerous responsibility of consenting to the payment of dividends. I have here a letter from a prominent lawyer whose opinion I sought in the matter, and who writes me to the effect that this bill practically takes away from the directors the management of any company making goods which are protected, and transfers it to the Secretary of State. When the Secretary of State is given, in addition to the information already called for by section 121, the further information
called for by the bill, he will have to consider, as to each company every year, the question of the fairness of its salaries, from the president downwards, its conditions of labour, its dividends in view of salaries, earnings, capital originally invested and so on. In other words, he will have to do every year for all these companies the work which it took the Turgeon commission months to do for the textile companies.
In the event of the Secretary of State withholding his written consent to the declaration and payment of dividends upon scrutiny of the return showing the list of employees and workers, the individual hours of work and the total amount of salary or wages received by each of them, each company with respect to which such consent was withheld" would demand the right to be heard and to submit further information calculated to justify, from their point of view, the desired declaration of a dividend and the sufficiency of the wages paid and of the hours of rest consistently with a great many factors such as capital investment, competitive conditions in the particular industry, seasonal fluctuations, world trade conditions and many other matters. Not only would a very large clerical staff be required to scrutinize and tabulate the information filed with the Secretary of State under the proposed amendment to section 121 of the Companies Act, but trained legal and other technical assistants, varying with the different industries under consideration, would have to be available for the assistance of the minister in considering and deciding upon individual cases in dispute.
Approximately 10,000 companies incorporated under the Companies Act (Canada) file returns with the Secretary of State annually under section 121 of the statute. Assuming that only one-half of these companies were engaged in manufacturing or making goods protected in whole or in part by the customs tariff, it must be borne in mind that many will employ hundreds, some even thousands, of individuals with varying hours of work and salary or wages.
In this connection it is interesting to observe that the proceedings of the Turgeon commission are recorded in many volumes, but I will not press that point. It is brought out in the letter I have read. After I had made known these objections to the mover of the bill he was perfectly willing to amend it so as not to have it apply to all of these companies, but rather to vest in the Secretary of State the power of intervening in exceptional cases. I may add that, in fact, he was quite prepared to suggest amendments to his own bill. I give him credit for that, and if I
Companies Act

have endeavoured to show why the bill in its original form is not acceptable I have a purpose in view. That purpose I trust I shall be permitted to intimate to the house.
Twice a week bills are moved in the house by members whose purposes are often highly commendable; but, if I may say so, the technical structure of such bills is not always acceptable and we ministers have the thankless task of rising in the house and trying to explain, not that we are opposed to the objects of the bill, but that the bill is not so drafted as to attain those objects. I put it to you. Mr. Speaker, if instead of dealing with the hon. member for Beauharnois-Laprairie who has shown a conciliatory spirit and a willingness to cooperate, I had to deal with a stubborn member who insisted upon the original wording of the bill, I should have to stand here opposing the bill for technical reasons which I might regard as quite proper; and yet I would be denounced in certain sections of the press as being against the working man and unwilling to try to put through legislation to remedy certain evils. This happened not long ago. I am not permitted to refer at length to another bill that has been before the house, but I may say in passing that what I have just suggested has happened. Members have certain objects in view and it is perfectly proper that they should bring them to the attention of the house, whether the bills embodying those objects relate to the French language or to any other matter. But when we come here in good faith, with exactly the same desire that private members have to further the interests they have at heart, why should not we too be given credit for that good faith by the friends of hon. members and by those sections of the press that support them? When you pursue a certain object, surely it is only right to see that you do not put upon the statute book bills that are obviously not acceptable.
Coming back to the present bill, I may say that the mover has made it clear that he does not wish to place in the hands of the Secretary of State full control over every company enjoying tariff protection, but he wants to have the Secretary of State furnished with all the requisite information on which to base a decision in individual cases, and to see that in exceptional cases the Secretary of State shall be in a position to take action. That is a vastly different proposal from what was originally set out in the bill. The house has shown a pronounced inclination to favour the bill, not so much on account of its specific provisions as on account of its principle, so that I am quite willing to let 
the house decide. Personally I would not oppose the second reading, but it would be on the distinct understanding that the bill will have to be materially amended when it reaches the committee. I may even say that it had been my intention, if the bill had come earlier, to have it referred to a select committee of the house, preferably the committee on banking and commerce, but we all know that that committee is very busy now and I do not think it would help to have it referred to that committee. We should rather try and work it out in committee of the whole house.
There are a couple of other points that I desire to make very briefly. Much of the information called for by the bill is already available, either in the bureau of statistics or in the departments of labour or of trade and commerce. I see no objection-on the contrary there might be an advantage doing so-to grouping that information and having it available in the Department of State. But again I point to the fact that, from the constitutional point of view, when we come to deal with wages, not only in securing information but in taking action upon the information gathered, we are wandering in a dangerous field. Not being a lawyer I have a certain sympathy with the opinion expressed in this house on several occasions by the hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. Stevens) that we should not always be blocked in our efforts to improve social conditions by finely drawn interpretations of constitutional nuances or difficulties. At the same time, if we legislate on a matter such as this, and, following the legislation, the Secretary of State feels called upon to interfere with the declaration of a dividend by a certain company, the company may appeal to the supreme court or to the privy council, and the point of view then taken will have to be a strictly legal one. The fact that we desired to improve social conditions would not stand against the strictly legal argument, as I understand the situation. But that is a matter which might be considered later.
We should be very careful in another direction. Companies may be incorporated either by the federal government or by the different provinces. I am not disclosing any secret when I say that there has always been a certain spirit of competition between federal and provincial authorities in this regard. It has been my own experience that very often when those desiring to incorporate a company come before the officers of my department to obtain certain concessions, and fail to obtain them, they at once repair to one of the provincial governments and obtain incorporation there. If

Companies Act
you impose too heavy obligations on companies you will merely achieve the end of reducing gradually the number which come to the federal department for incorporation. In an effort to avoid that, and I think in a very good spirit, in recent years representatives of the different provincial governments, especially from the departments of the attorneys general, have met with my own officers in an attempt to realize what may be the millennial hope of securing uniformity in the federal and provincial companies acts in this country. They are working on that now. I have myself attended several meetings, and, having practically agreed that we should not materially amend the different companies acts either in the provinces or the dominion, it would be with a certain reluctance that I should see the federal act amended in any material way.
If there were not two sides to a question it would not be worth while discussing it. At the same time I appreciate that if conditions are such as the hon. member for Beauharnois-Laprairie has indicated, it is up to this parliament to do something. But since the working men themselves have expressed their desire not to recommend any material decrease in the tariff for fear the factories might close and they might lose their jobs, and since from all appearances the provincial government concerned has not acted to improve the labour conditions in the industry to which reference has been made, personally I will not stand between the evil and a certain degree of remedy. Therefore, although I believe the situation is fraught with difficulty I will not object to second reading of the bill, with the distinct understanding that when it is considered in committee we shall have to examine it very carefully and make material changes.


Mr. RAYMOND:: The Secretary of State informed the house that much information required by this bill could be obtained from other departments. Unfortunately the information furnished to other departments is confidential. I wrote to the dominion statistician and I received his reply dated February If), 1939, in which he says:
I have your letter of February 8, and regret that under the secrecy clause of the Statistics Act we are unable to give you any information relating to an individual firm.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
On section 1-Return to be submitted and consent of Secretary of State obtained before dividends payable.
Mr. CHEVRIER:: I move:
That section 1 of the bill be amended as follows:
On page 1, line 12, by striking out the words "submitted to" and substituting therefor the words "filed in the department of"; and again in the same line, after the word "and," inserting the following: "if any person so requires by registered letter forwarded to the Secretary of State and to the head office of the company."


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I am agreeable to the amendment. If I understand correctly the purport of the amendment, it is to require the Secretary of State to act only where a specific demand would be made for such action. In other words, the Secretary of State would take no action unless he were required upon special request.


Donat Raymond: Yes.


Ernest Lapointe: With
respect to this bill I take about the same position as my colleague the Secretary of State. I was in favour of giving the bill second reading, more particularly because of section 4, which is really the section which compels the companies, when filing their annual statements, to give particulars as requested in the report of the Turgeon commission. Particulars would be given as to wages and hours of labour; there would be no secrecy; the white light of publicity would be directed to these various matters.
On the other hand I should like to study, in the light of the amendments which have been proposed, the section now being discussed. In its original form I could not see how the Secretary of State could be made responsible for withholding the payment of dividends. The entire theory of joint stock companies is that men join together, have a limited responsibility and use their capital and their work to produce goods and make profits, which have to be distributed by dividends. If in exercising the discretion given to him the Secretary of State were to withhold his permission for the declaration of dividends, what would become of the moneys? There is nothing in the bill to indicate what use would be made of the money which was not distributed.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Confiscate it.


Ernest Lapointe: Confiscate it? Well, the bill does not say so, and I am sure that while many hon. members would like to further the aims of the sponsor of the bill, they would not like to confiscate profits. I should like the hon. member for Beauhamois-Laprairie to tell me what the result of the amendments would be. What Objective would be attained if the amendments were approved?
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Donat Raymond: The purpose of the bill is to prevent a company from distributing large profits among shareholders while at the same time they are not paying a living wage to their workers. If the company were not allowed to distribute large profits, they would change their minds, and, instead of accumulating profits, they would distribute them among the workers so that the workers would receive a decent rate of pay.


Ernest Lapointe: But the bill does not say that.


Donat Raymond: The companies would have to realize that they must do something for the workers. If they do not do something, another bill could be brought in next year. If any hon. member has an amendment to propose I shall have no objection to listening to it, but surely this parliament will not permit the granting of special privileges to these companies in order that they may accumulate profits and distribute scandalous dividends, without doing anything to prevent it.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Who is to judge as to what is a fair wage?


Donat Raymond: The Secretary of State ought to know what is a fair wage for a labouring man. Surely he would know that $300 a year is not sufficient for a worker to live on.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I quite agree with the hon. member on that point. The bill is a drastic measure, although it is not without merit. Surely there must foe someone other than the Secretary of State who would say what is a fair wage. If the Secretary of State came from the maritime provinces he might hjve a certain idea as to what a fair wage would be, whereas if he came from Ontario or some other province he might have an entirely different idea. By this bill we should foe delegating to the Secretary of State a matter which really ought to come under the jurisdiction of the Department of Labour.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Or the provinces.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Yes, it is really a provincial matter. We will suppose that in a certain province in which the bill would operate there might be a minimum wage rate lower than that prevailing in another province. We might say, " Well, you cannot go lower than the minimum wage rate set by the government of "-a certain province. Then with respect to another firm manufacturing a similar article we should have to give judgment as if that firm were situated in the province with the lower rate. Frankly I believe the bill is unworkable. We would be delegating to the

Secretary of State a responsibility which should not be his. It should be the responsibility of the Minister of Labour.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Of a province.


Donat Raymond: I have put the responsibility on the shoulders of the Secretary of State because the bill has to do with the Companies Act, which is under his jurisdiction. However, it would make no difference whether it was the Secretary of State or the Minister of Labour, because in either department the officials and not the minister would attend to the details. Of course the minister would have to verify the conclusions of the officials, but the officials would have to do the actual work, whether in the Department of Labour or the department of the Secretary of State.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: May I ask the hon.
member-


Frederick George Sanderson: It is nine o'clock.
Section stands.
Progress reported.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OP TRANSPORT

[Stage Direction]
Air service-Civil aviation division.
\Oli. Airways and airports-operation and maintenance including lighting, radio and meteorological services, $1,329,195.
Clarence Decatur Howe: This covers the expenses of operating the government owned aerodromes and also the cost of maintaining beam service, teletype service, weather service and lighting.


Denton Massey: The hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) was anxious to obtain some information on this item. He is sitting on the public accounts committee tonight, and I wonder if the minister would permit his questions being asked on some other item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Will he be here to-night?


Denton Massey: He will be here later on.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We can save one item of the supplementaries.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil aviation division.
405. Grants for advanced aeronautical instruction and to aeroplane clubs, including grant of $5,000 to the Canadian Flying Clubs Association, $70,000.
Grote Stirling: Is this all or part of the grants received by the flying clubs?

Supply-Transport-Air Service


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is the complete grant.
These clubs are also doing some work for the Department of National Defence in connection with selecting candidates for further training, and they have a source of revenue there. The amount shown in the item is about the amount of the assistance that has been given for some years.


Grote Stirling: How many clubs are
there?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Twenty-two.


Denton Massey: Where are they and what
grants do they receive?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The list is as follows:
Aero Club of British Columbia	$1,189	70Border Cities Aero Cluib	
810	00Brandon Aero Club	
1,587	00Brant and Norfolk Aero Club	
1,883	50Calgary Aero Club	
1,500	00Cape Breton Flying Club	
2,100	00
Edmonton and Northern Alberta Aero
Club	
665	00Halifax Aero Club	
2,290	00Hamilton Aero Club	
2,607	90Flying Club of Kingston	
1,357	17Kitehener-Waterloo Flying	Club.. .. 1,386	93Lakehead Flying Club	
1,690	00London Flying Club	'	.. 2,462 01Montreal Light Aeroplane	Club.. .. 1,200	00Moose Jaw Flying Club	1.991	08Ottawa Flying Club	
2,488	91Regina Flying Club	
1,235	35St. Catharines Flying Club	
1,050	00St. John Flying Club	
660	00Saskatoon Aero Club	
1.660	00Toronto Flying Club	
2,723	91Winnipeg Light Aeroplane	Club. . . . 3,290	50


Denton Massey: On what basis are the allotments made?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The number of pilots trained. A grant of $100 is made for each private licence issued and so much an hour for a commercial licence.


Denton Massey: Is it felt that value is being received for these grants?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, I think so. There has been some sorting out of the clubs. At one time some clubs were located in cities which really did not have a sufficient number of students to warrant their carrying on. But the number of clubs has been reduced, and I think the present clubs are amply justified. This is the only source of private training open to pilots desiring to enter commercial work. The only other training a man can obtain is to enter the militia, which involves signing up for a period of years. Private training is paid for privately; these grants are only to give assistance to the clubs.
Through the years these clubs have turned out a considerable number of commercial pilots. At the moment they are performing a very useful work in giving preliminary training and making a selection of pilots who wish to enter the air force. Instead of having to go to a military training centre, these students may take their course at the local club. If they are found qualified, they are sent on to the training camps.


Denton Massey: I am pleased to hear the minister make the statement he just made. It seemed to me that these clubs offer an excellent training ground, not only for commercial pilots but for pilots of all types and classes. The amounts granted to some of these clubs are small compared with the usefulness of the service they render. These flying clubs are located all across the dominion; they are not limited to any one locality. They have turned out some excellent men. Unfortunately some of the clubs are located in districts where the interest has been comparatively light. I refer to the interest in the club, rather than to the number of pilots. Considering the difficulties which the Department of National Defence has been facing, it seems to me that here is an opportunity by which we can increase not only the interest in flying but the efficiency of our pilots. I think the minister might well give consideration to increasing this vote substantially. He has just stated he feels that full value is being received from what has been expended so far, and $35,000 distributed among twenty-two clubs does not seem a large amount of money. If the grant were doubled, perhaps it would double the efficiency of the work.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I doubt if the way to make these clubs efficient is to give them too much money. Some years ago many clubs were in a precarious financial position, but I am glad to say that to-day they are in a first-class financial position. This is mainly on account of the Canadian Flying Clubs Association which controls the different clubs. This association has had splendid officers at its head, and they have brought the equipment of the various clubs to a high state of efficiency. In my opinion the grants now provided are sufficient to keep the clubs in efficient operation provided there is proper management. For a number of years these clubs will receive considerable revenue from the Department of National Defence for performing certain work for that department.


Denton Massey: I had in mind that the money would be used only for equipment and

Supply-Transport-Air Service
training and not to make the clubs more attractive in appearance or anything of that kind.
What equipment have the clubs obtained to date? Has that equipment been obtained out of their own resources, or have they used some of these grants to obtain training ships.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In the initial stages we gave each club two training planes, and subsequently one plane for each plane they bought. Recently we have been making no grants for equipment, simply the allowance for training, but I believe the clubs have all the equipment they need, and some have more than they can use to advantage.


Denton Massey: It is a straight cash grant for the club?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Denton Massey: What is the number of pilots trained in the various clubs last year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Since 1929 the clubs have graduated 1,721 private pilots and 423 commercial pilots. Last year the clubs turned out 230 private pilots and fifty commercial pilots.


Denton Massey: I imagine the majority of
them have been trained in the last few years, have they not? After all, there was a serious depression from 1929 on for a few years.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There were 175 private licences issued in 1929; in 1930, 178; in 1931, 111; in 1932, 129; in 1933, 120; in 1934, 133; in 1935, 165; in 1936, 222; in 1937, 258.


Vincent Dupuis: Has the minister the number of pilots turned out each year in each of the provinces? I understand that in the province of Quebec there is only one club, that in Montreal.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. Montreal last year
turned out six private pilots.


Vincent Dupuis: Out of how many training?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The membership in the club is 127, and the number under instruction, ten.


Vincent Dupuis: How many pilots were turned out in the whole dominion last year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There were 230 last year.


Vincent Dupuis: I am of the same opinion as the hon. member for Greenwood. I think this department, in view of the progress made in aviation, should increase its estimate for that purpose. As a member coming from the province of Quebec I would be very much pleased if this were done, in consequence of which more people in the province of Quebec

would have facilities available to them for acquiring training as pilots. I am sure there is not more being done in the province of Quebec in that field. I am sure that the minister is as anxious as anyone to see an improvement in that field, and I repeat, I should like the Department of Transport to increase this estimate so that facilities may be at the disposal of our province and the country at large to obtain knowledge and training in aircraft.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-Civil aviation division.
1)06. To provide for contributions to assist municipalities to improve existing airports, or to provide new airports, and for direct construction works on municipal or government airports serving municipalities, the sites of which have been provided by such municipalities, $800,000.
Denton Massey: How near completion is the Island airport at Toronto?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Island airport is finished so far as the initial stage is concerned; that is, the two paved runways, the seaplane base, and the administration building.


Denton Massey: No part of this grant is for either of the two Toronto airports?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is $50,000 to complete the Malton administration building and do a few odds and ends.


Mr. COLDWELL:: How much will be spent in Saskatchewan in the coming year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: About $230,000.


Major James William Coldwell: Where is it being spent?


Clarence Decatur Howe: These are tentative allotments: Prince Albert, $7,400; Saskatoon, $17,070; Moose Jaw, $30,000; Regina, $176,000.


Harry James Barber: How much for the Ottawa airport?


Clarence Decatur Howe: 


Vincent Dupuis: What is being done this year at St. Hubert?


Clarence Decatur Howe: A total of about $200,000 will be spent there. These are just tentative allotments.


Denton Massey: Is any work to be done at Kingston airport, or is that completely off the track?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is nothing for Kingston although we have had a request from there, which we are investigating. We may spend some there.

Supply-Transport

Canals Service


Denton Massey: It is not on the direct route between Montreal and Toronto?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is off the route.


Denton Massey: So nothing is being done at Kingston airport? Has the minister landed there? If so, I need say no more.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, and had it not been for an opening in the fence we might not have landed safely. Some small sum may be spent there.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-Radio division.
il2. Issue of radio receiving licences- (transport department only), $137,365.
Denton Massey: How many have been employed recently in connection with issuing radio licences?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does my hon. friend mean paid officers?


Denton Massey: The ones collecting the fees from door to door.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have 153 supervisors on our staff. I do not think we have a record of the vendors; they work on commission.


Denton Massey: And in various other ways.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-Civil aviation division.
575. Airways and airports-construction and improvements, including lighting and radio facilities-capital, $1,446,600.
Denton Massey: For what particular airports is this amount?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Intermediate landing field between Sioux Lookout and Fort William, $100,000; hard surface runway at Wagaming, $55,000; hangar at North Bay, $45,000; field between Toronto and Ottawa, $135,000; improvements at Killaloe, $7,700; improvements at St. Hubert, $99,000; improvements at field at Rimouski, $4,500; Windsor Mills, $10,000.


Grote Stirling: Is this supplementary to item 403?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Grote Stirling: And consequently an afterthought a few months later?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is additional work under the special works program we decided to do this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-Civil aviation division.
576. To provide for contributions to assist municipalities to improve existing airports, or to provide new airports, and for direct construction works on municipal or government airports serving municipalities, the sites of which have been provided by such municipalities, $675,000.
Grote Stirling: This is supplementary to item 406, is it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, that is correct.


Mr. HANSON:: What municipalities in British Columbia are assisted, and what are the amounts?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have a tentative amount of $80,000 for Vancouver, and there are sums for Kamloops, Penticton and Ashcroft. There is some investigation work to be done in that section. There is also a provision for a certain amount in the Peace River district.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-Radio division.
656. Radio direction finding stations, radio beacons and radiotelegraph stations-operation and maintenance-further amount required, $30,000.
Grote Stirling: Are these up north?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is for additional radiotelephone stations in connection with our work of providing radio-telegraph equipment for ship to shore communication on the great lakes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canals service.
its. Canals service administration, $33,340.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I wanted to say something with reference to canals, and I wondered if the minister would object to my saying it under this item.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Go right ahead.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I shall take only a few moments, because I do not believe that under this item I should say much of what I have to say. Some few days ago-to be exact, on May 13-I asked a question of the government in reference to what action they were going to take with regard to the proposed opening of the sluice gates in the canal south of Long lake, between Long lake and lake Superior. I pointed out that there were at present some 50,000 cords of pulpwood on the ice in that lake, and that the Ontario government proposed shortly to open the canal. I assume that the Prime Minister should have replied to the question, but the minister

Supply-Transport-Canals Service
replied, and I rise merely to set him right on this subject, not to pass any particular comment on what he said. His reply was:
My information is that there is very serious flooding of the railway tracks in the vicinity of Longlac, where the line has been washed out twice.
As a matter of fact the line at Longlac has never been washed out at any time. During the spring there were two wash-outs east of Longlac, I believe near Seagram and Horne-payne, and west of Longlac, but the line at Longlac itself is so much higher than the water level that to wash out the line would mean the washing out of the buildings adjacent to Longlac station, and my information is that nothing of that kind has occurred at any time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am told that the water was
so dangerously high this spring at that particular point that on that account the gates were opened.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That had nothing to do with it. The gates are not opened yet. The water at no time was dangerous at Longlac station, and as I have said, the particular gales to which I have reference have not been opened yet. It is proposed to open them. These particular gates are south of the height of land and some six miles south of the south end of Long lake itself.
However, I give the minister the correct information. A day or two after asking my question of May 13, I asked the Prime Minister if there had been any action taken following the letter of the United States secretary of state of March 17, 1938. The Prime Minister replied:
I am unable to answer my hon. friend's question at the moment, but I shall try to see that an answer is given to-morrow.
On the following day, May 16, the Minister of Justice replied for the Prime Minister, saying:
Yesterday the hon. member for Davenport . . . asked a question of the Prime Minister ... to which he promised an answer to-day. The question is to be found on page 4334 of Hansard. The answer is, no; there have been no further developments.
The question was, whether any change had taken place between Canada and the United States as to permitting the opening of the gate in the canal south of Long lake, and the answer was, no. I merely wish to add that I know the minister gave his answer in good faith, but the information given to

him was incorrect so far as Longlac was concerned ; and if he wishes thoroughly to familiarize himself with the subject I would recommend that he study the two white papers given out by the Prime Minister last year. They tell the whole story. I have them here, but I am not going to take up time with them now. The matter will come up, I assume, under external affairs. The fact is that the line at Longlac has not been washed out; I am satisfied that the water would have to rise approximately eight feet before it could become a menace to the tracks, and I am informed that never in the history of Long lake has the water risen that high.


Mr. WARD:: Has the minister any information with regard to under what right or under what lease or other agreement the Rideau Aquatic Club are located on the Rideau canal and have the slip, or whatever they call it, where they put their boats in. The reason I ask the question is that the condition there has been rather unsightly all spring, and is yet. I wondered if that will obtain there for all time. It is an unsatisfactory exhibition at the edge of a million dollar drive which belongs to the federal government.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Rideau Aquatic Club
holds a lease from the Department of Transport. I am told that no complaint has been received about the appearance of the place, but I will have the departmental officers look into the matter and see whether some improvement cannot be made.


William John Ward: Did the minister say he had been informed that no complaints had been lodged? Complaints were lodged some days ago.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have no knowledge of any, but perhaps I have overlooked the letter. I will search my files and see if a complaint has been received. However, we shall be very glad to look into the subject and see if some improvement cannot be made.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Administration of the Transport Act.
400. Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada-administration, maintenance and operation, $275,200.
Thomas Reid: Has Commissioner Stoncman been reappointed, and what is his salary?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Commissioner Stoneman's
term was completed in March of this year, and he was reappointed for a further period of ten years.

Supply-Transport-Railway Service


Thomas Reid: I suppose it is too late to protest, but I for one do protest. If there is a man in whom the people are disappointed it is this gentleman. Before he was appointed to this office he was a great believer in the equalization of freight rates, and at the time of his appointment it was thought he would give some consideration to the question of removing some of the obstacles with which we have had to contend. But he was the biggest obstacle we have ever had in British Columbia. As I say, I assume it is too late to protest now, but I am voicing the sentiments of many people when I say that he has disappointed us in his discharge of the trust reposed in him. I would make that statement outside the house too.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can say for Commissioner Stoneman that for the four years that I have been associated with him I have found him exceedingly capable and conscientious, and any action he has taken has been from a sense of duty and fairness.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I think it would be a serious mistake to establish in this house the precedent that a person holding a public office of trust of this kind should be subject to the charge that he is or has been guilty of a breach of that trust. I have no brief for Mr. Stoneman nor do I know him personally at all, or in a friendly way, but I do know him as a public officer. I have been interested in cases that have gone before the board of railway commissioners during the years that he has been there, and while I can, say that he did not take the side of the case to which I was myself favourable, at the same time I am of opinion that Mr. Stoneman, as a railway commissioner, is a man with a high sense of public duty. I believe that he has served his country well and deserves commendation rather than condemnation. The fact that a person in a judicial or semi-judicial position renders decisions that we do not like is no reason why he should be held up to public contempt in this house. Personally I should not like this opportunity to pass without protesting against that method of intimidating persons holding public office. There is a way of dealing with such persons. Any member of the judiciary is subject to impeachment before this house, and in my experience here I have known of one judge having been impeached. Fortunately I do not recall any more. The high standing of our judiciary-and this is a semi-judicial position-is maintained because its members are not subject to public influence and political or public attack, provided they discharge their
duties. If they do not discharge their duties and are false to their trust they are subject to impeachment in the house in a proper manner.


Thomas Reid: The hon. gentleman is as much entitled to his views as I am to mine. It could not be from any motive of intimidation that I have made these remarks, because if that were so, the remarks would have been made last year before he was reappointed for a term of ten years. I do not believe the hon. member has done what I did. I had personal experience before the board and I know whereof I speak.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway service.
437. Railway grade crossing fund-amount to be placed to the credit of the railway grade crossing fund, and to be applied by the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada pursuant to, and within the limitations of, the provisions of section 262. of the Railway Act, as enacted by chapter 43 of the statutes of Canada, 1928, and amended by chapter 54 of the statutes of Canada, 1929, $500,000.
Denton Massey: Has any progress been made in regard to the Jones avenue crossing in Toronto?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have not yet had a report from the board, but I had a letter from the city some weeks ago offering to pay a proportion of the cost. It seemed reasonable to me, and I rather fancy it will be proceeded with this year, although the railway board, which has the allocation of the projects, has not yet sent it forward for action by the government.


Denton Massey: Each year on these estimates, and elsewhere, I have brought up this matter and discussed it at considerable length. There are in the east end of the city three grade crossings-really four-which are a serious menace to safety and to traffic. I know from previous conversations with the minister and from questions I have asked, that the allocations are in the hands of the board, but there is a general feeling that the Jones avenue crossing is the first one that should be proceeded with. If any work were done now and carried to a successful conclusion it would be of considerable benefit to the east end of the city.


Abraham Albert Heaps: There is an increase of $200,000 in this item. One is bound to approve such an increased appropriation when it does away with as many level crossings as possible. How much was spent last year in the elimination of crossings?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Up to last year the contribution to grade crossings was a statutory matter fixed at $200,000, and we appropriated $300,000
4768	COMMONS
Supply-Transport-Railway Service
in the main estimates, bringing the total up to $500,000 for that item and then increased it by a vote of $1,000,000 for the works program for special work, so that the total vote last year was $1,500,000. The total vote this year is the same, except that there is no statutory authority for $200,000, because statutory authority expired on March 31, 1939. It was practically all committed. Applications are filled with a reasonable distribution among the various provinces, but generally it is a matter of first come, first served, provided the projects are considered worth while by the board of railway commissioners.


Denton Massey: I am sure the minister will realize the importance of eliminating some of the existing crossings. This year, having regard especially to increased unemployment throughout the dominion and not in any particular centre, I should like to know whether any plans have been formulated so far to carry forward some of these projects which perhaps would not be considered were it not for the fact that they were designed to give employment. These works, contributing as they do to public safety and public convenience, are exceedingly valuable as part of a public works program. They are designed not only for the relief of unemployment as palliative measures, but to serve an eminently useful public purpose. Are any plans in contemplation in this regard in view of the increased unemployment?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is impossible to allocate funds to projects until the money is voted, and to date we have only twenty per cent voted. There have been two or three projects passed on to the government on the recommendation of the board of transport commissioners. From what I know of the general situation, the board is giving serious consideration to the Jones avenue project, but the city's offer of participation dates back only perhaps two months, and plans and tenders have to be called for, so it is not surprising that this particular project is not before the government yet. However, now that the money is available, the board will ask the government to allocate it rapidly.


Denton Massey: The minister appreciates, of course, .that while my first question was of a particular nature in regard to the Jones avenue crossing in Toronto, the last remarks were of a general nature applying to the whole country.


Abraham Albert Heaps: The minister stated that there was $1,500,000 to be appropriated this year for grade crossing elimination. This vote is for $500,000. Under what vote is the other $1,000,000?
[Mr. Howe.)


Clarence Decatur Howe: Special supplementaries. We shall come to that presently.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Kailway service.
*439. Hudson Bay railway-construction and improvements-capital, $25,000.
George Halsey Perley: I do not think there is enough attention given to the Hudson Bay railway project. I understand the Canadian National have the running rights, and the harbour is controlled by the national harbours board. It seems to me that those who have control of the shipping, the railway and the harbour are not trying to get the business that could be got for that railway and harbour. I think the Churchill harbour should be under a separate board composed of representatives from the three prairie provinces and possibly another person named by the department or the minister. But more attention should be given to getting more business, incoming as well as outgoing, for that port. It could be put on a basis where it would carry itself and be of much greater advantage to western Canada than it is.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no lack of attention to Churchill. As my hon. friend is familiar with the grain business, he knows there are conditions which make it possible to move grain through Churchill and conditions which make it impossible. In the early months of last year it was impossible to move grain through Churchill owing to the premiums on the Fort William route. However, we did one thing last year which has never been done before, we moved a million bushels of the crop of 1938-39 through the port of Churchill after the crop was harvested. This is the first time that movement has ever taken place, which is most encouraging. The elevator at the moment is filled with grain; certain grain is being held in country elevators for movement through Churchill, and I think we have every prospect of a satisfactory season this coming summer.
As for the turning of the port over to someone else, after all the government have an investment of some $51,000,000 there altogether, I think, in the railway and terminal; if my hon. friend finds anyone who would care to lease it we would let him have it at a reasonable price. But failing that, I think he had better let the department that constructed the port continue to operate it.


George Halsey Perley: I do not think there is sufficient effort made to get incoming business.


Clarence Decatur Howe: How does my hon. friend know that? The department has done everything it can do.

Supply-Transport-Travel Bureau


George Halsey Perley: I think I know on pretty good authority. Last year, for instance, I understand a company was ready to bring in binder twine but could not get storage facilities.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is absolutely incorrect; no boat was scheduled for movement into Churchill.


George Halsey Perley: But before, the boat was put on, the company that was getting the business in wanted to know first if it would have storage facilities, and I understand they were refused.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is not correct.


George Halsey Perley: Binder twine is not a perishable article-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Will my hon. friend accept my statement, from intimate knowledge of the situation, that his statement is absolutely incorrect? No binder twine was refused storage at Churchill last year; no binder twine moved to Churchill for the reason that no boat came to Churchill from Great Britain because they could not get a return cargo on account of there being no grain in Churchill.


George Halsey Perley: Then I suggest that the government close the port, if no more effort is made than is being made at the present time by the Department of Transport to get business for it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The province of Saskatchewan keep a man exclusively for the purpose of getting business for Churchill, and I assume he is doing his best. Will my hon friend suggest that that is wasted effort, or is that excellent work while our work is bad?


George Halsey Perley: I think those interested would cooperate with the department if they could get cooperation for business.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If my hon. friend would confine himself to something he knows instead of what he picks up on the street we would get along better in this house.


George Halsey Perley: I do not pick it up on the street. If we had a proper place we could produce the evidence.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Produce it now.


George Halsey Perley: We never had a chance


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I do not see any advantage in shipping the wheat through Churchill instead of Fort William. Fort William is a better route and safer.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian travel bureau service.
445. To assist in promoting tourist business in Canada, $315,000.
Denton Massey: I notice there is an increase of $65,000 in this item. I believe it could be many times such an increase and return many fold in benefits to Canada. I do not think there is any other country employing in its service any more efficient men in such publicity work than our own Mr. Dolan. He has done a most excellent piece of work, and has recently been singularly honoured in an international conference in the United States. The contribution he has already made to Canada is outstanding, and whereas I fully subscribe to the amount that has been spent in previous years, last year $250,000, we must recognize that the tourist trade, as I have already said on a previous occasion this session, is one of the most valuable we have. And anyone who has been in business, as the minister himself has been, knows the value of advertising. Advertising is most effective when it is not only efficiently done but when it has the right type of product to sell. I am confident that this year particularly, with the visit of their majesties not only to Canada but to the United States, Canada is more before the world now than she has been for many years. While one would not for a moment suggest that the visit of their majesties is regarded as advertising- do not think that for a moment-yet we must realize that with their majesties going to the United States this year from Canada, Canada will become of peculiar interest to the United States in the course of the next two or three weeks. The holiday season starts very soon. We could spend a substantial sum of money in the United States in advertising with great benefit not only to the country as a whole but to the individual citizens of the country. Few countries can boast of the natural advantages that we have here from the point of view of a playground and facilities for outdoor enjoyments of all sorts and of natural beauty. Travelling from the Atlantic to the Pacific one finds everywhere an outdoor paradise. There are routes such as the road round Gaspe, some in the maritimes, in parts of Quebec and Ontario, across the prairies and in British Columbia with which there are no others to compare.


Mr. HOWARD:: Certainly there are one or two in Quebec to which that statement might apply.


Denton Massey: I spoke of Quebec, and one might say through Sheilbrooke particularly.

Supply-Transport-Travel Bureau
The pamphlet that was prepared by the bureau this year under Mr. Dolan was exceedingly effective. I understand, however, from both observation and otherwise that the facilities at the disposal of the bureau at the present time are, to say the least, somewhat inadequate. The minister has probably noticed the handicaps under which the branch is working. They are sending out thousands of pieces of literature daily from a shipping room which is utterly unsuitable to the type of work being done. The department, itself, is on one floor of the building and the shipping room is in the basement. There is a great deal of confusion and waste of time between the two. Working conditions there are unsatisfactory.
But in spite of all these handicaps, Mr. Dolan and his staff are doing a good piece of work. I rise to speak briefly on the item, earnestly to urge upon the minister, first, that he take steps to provide his department with adequate and efficient facilities and, second, that he give earnest consideration to an extension of this item, so that we may take full advantage this summer of the unusual opportunities offered to us, and give the people not only in the United State but in other countries the inspiration to come to Canada to enjoy a holiday in the finest country of the world.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is difficult to know what would 'be a proper amount to spend under this item. Originally the purpose was to set up an office to coordinate the efforts being made by the different provinces and by the railway systems in Canada. I think we are doing that to a considerable extent, and we are acting as a clearing house for general information. It is the duty of the department not to advertise any particular part of Canada, but to advertise the country as a whole, and to direct inquiries to the particular agency best suited to handle them. From year to year the volume of inquiries has increased tremendously. I believe that to-day we are serving a considerable part of the tourist public.


Denton Massey: The minister will understand that I am not criticizing what has been done to date.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I understand that. I was speaking more particularly of the size of the vote. It is larger this year, to provide for the opening of an office in New York city. This is being tried somewhat as an experiment. It is thought that the fair gives adequate reason for opening an office in that city, and if the results are satisfactory, and if a fair volume of business goes through the office,

we will perhaps open offices in Chicago and San Francisco, although a decision in regard to those two cities has not as yet been made.
The vote is supplemented this year by one in the estimates of the Department of Trade and Commerce, involving special expenditures at the fair. We are making a real effort to attract tourists on the fair grounds, as well as from the uptown office. After studying this matter, my view is that the best course is to proceed gradually, and to make sure that each step is warranted before we make expenditures which may not be justified.


Denton Massey: Did the minister have in mind the improvement of office facilities, and so on?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have given the bureau such accommodation as we can, with the room at our disposal. The whole department is rather cramped, and the bureau is in the same position. I doubt if we can work out any better arrangement until new accommodation is provided for the whole department.


Mr. ISNOR:: What amount is being spent this year at the New York fair, and what is the estimated expenditure for the future, in the event of a permanent office being opened?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is the sum of $65,000
included in the estimates of the Department of Trade and Commerce for expenditures on the fair grounds, and there is an increase of $65,000 in this estimate to provide for expenditures at the uptown office, and for other expenditures. In particular we are publishing a rather extensive booklet this year, and a number of other pieces of literature.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the bureau send
out the literature, or does it have the information respecting different points of interest throughout the country available in prominent places for distribution?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is literature for distribution at the fair grounds and at the uptown office, but the greater part of it is sent out in reply to inquiries. We advertise in the newspapers inviting those who are interested to write the tourist bureau at Ottawa. When these inquiries are received, suitable literature is sent to the inquirers. The literature is forwarded to points outside Canada, we have not made the practice of distributing much of it within the country. It is distributed chiefly in the United States and the British isles.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Transport-Marine Service
Government employees' compensation.
Administration of the Government Employees' Compensation Act, $18,215.
Angus MacInnis: Why was there no item
for administration last year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Last year it was handled by
the Department of Finance, and a year ago was transferred to the Department of Transport because by far the greater number of employees subject to compensation are employees of the Department of Transport.


Angus MacInnis: Which government employees come under the provisions of the act?


Clarence Decatur Howe: All government employees of all departments come under the item, but we administer it because under our department are included canal and harbours board employees, and a great number of employees who are in occupations more hazardous than those of employees of other departments.


Angus MacInnis: How do the rates paid
by the government under this scheme compare with provincial payments under provincial compensation schemes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: All our payments are based
on provincial government scales.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National harbours board.
J/55. Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures during the calendar year 1939 on any or all of the following accounts: Reconstruction and capital expenditures (revoke, $366,500) - Montreal. $1,050,870; Vancouver, $51,500; total. $1,102,370; less amount to be expended from replacement funds, $180,175. Total, $922,195.
Angus MacInnis: I should like to say a
few words in connection with this item.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We should like to clear up
some other items while the officer assisting me is here. We will come to the harbours board item in a short time, and I would suggest that we proceed to another one.
Item stands.
Marine service.
SSI. To provide for the construction of a combination ice-breaker and service vessel estimated to cost $675,000-(revote, $196,000) - capital, $600,000.


Angus MacInnis: Where will this vessel be built?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Tenders were called. This vessel is being built at the Davie shipyard at Levis. They were the lowest tenderers. This vessel is intended to replace the Lady Grey, which is over forty years old and is no longer
in shape to work in the ice, and the Arranmore, working on the Nova Scotia coast, which is nearly fifty years old and which the inspection officers do not wish to pass any longer.


Angus MacInnis: Has the tender been let?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, the contract was let after tenders were called. There was a small vote last year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service.
583. River St. Lawrence ship channel-to provide for extension and improvement of control weirs-capital, $200,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Do the weirs increase the flow of water, and does that increased flow keep the channels cleared out, or what is their purpose?


Clarence Decatur Howe: These weirs extend practically across the river at a point above Sorel, and their purpose is to raise the level of the water in Montreal harbour. The velocity of the water in the channel is increased, but it is checked to a reasonable flow and the level in Montreal harbour is increased by some 2J feet. For some years there was an appropriation of some $60,000 a year to maintain these weirs. There was some wash and ice damage each winter, but we studied the action of the water and the amount of sediment that collected and we believe we have the necessary information to put the weirs in final form. It is expected that this $200,000 will make a permanent job. The same item was voted last year, but we did not spend it and we are not absolutely sure that we will spend this amount this year. We thought we would not be ready this year, but when the estimates were made up we decided we would do the work now.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the nature of the bottom at the point where the weirs are located?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a mixture of sand and clay. The difficulty is that there is some ice movement which planes off the top of the weir, and there is some wash round the end. There is also some erosion which causes property damage which has to be taken care of. These are located on the Sorel islands.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Increasing the flow of the water should help to keep the channel clear.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, it helps in that way.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
4772	COMMONS
Supply-Transport-Railway Service
Railway service.
SSI/. To provide for the discharge of commitments incurred prior to March 31, 1939, under the authority of votes Nos. 629 and 630, schedule "B" to the Appropriation Act No. 4, 1938. respecting highway crossings of railways (revote), $1,235,220.
Harry James Barber: What commitments come under this vote?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is the revote for grade crossing projects which are under way but not completed.


Harry James Barber: Which projects?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is a long list. Does the hon. member want me to read it?


Harry James Barber: No. What is there in British Columbia?


Clarence Decatur Howe: A total of $33,000 worth of work is being done in British Columbia. I am sorry I cannot give the complete information because it is not divided in that way.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway service.
585. Amount to be applied towards the actual cost of construction work for the protection, safety and convenience of the public in respect of highway crossings of railways as the governor in council may from time to time determine, $1,000,000.
Harry James Barber: This is work which will be carried out this year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Angus MacInnis: What is the difference between vote 585 and vote 584?


Clarence Decatur Howe: When a grade crossing project is approved, a commitment is made and the money is set aside. If the project is not finished in that particular year a revote is necessary to complete the work. Some of these projects are quite difficult and the work may drag on for a year or two.


Harry James Barber: Is this a three-way arrangement between the municipality, the railway company and the government, or is it an arrangement between the company and the municipality?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The board investigates and allocates the cost. The statutory vote of $500,000 permits of a contribution of not more than forty per cent, but under this second vote expenditures up to seventy per cent may be made, this being in addition to the statutory vote The other thirty per cent is a matter for the railway board to determine.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Mr. Howe.l
Railway service.
586. To provide for contributions to the cost of deferred railway projects, not to exceed the estimated cost of labour directly employed (revote $500,000), $2,000,000.
Abraham Albert Heaps: What kind of projects would be covered by this vote?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The purpose of this vote is to permit the railway to go ahead with projects which cannot be fully justified at the moment. This is really a provision to allow the railway to anticipate its requirements in the way of capital structure. A considerable portion of this vote is for the terminal at Montreal. We have undertaken to furnish the labour cost of the project amounting to not more than forty per cent of the total expenditure, which accounts for about $1,500,000. The balance of the vote is for smaller projects.


Mr. WERMENLINGER:: Does the minister mean the terminal station or the tunnel at Cote St. Paul?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The terminal project.


Edgard Jules Wermenlinger: Are the terminal project and the tunnel at Cote St. Paul both in this vote, or are they separate?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This vote is for the railway terminal. The provision for our share of the tunnel would be provided for in the canals vote.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What will be the total cost of the terminal project now undertaken at Montreal?


Clarence Decatur Howe: From the point where it was started some months ago, the estimated cost of the project is about $12,500,000. This will provide a station and all trackage connections to the east, west and south.


Edgard Jules Wermenlinger: This vote refers to the cost of deferred projects. Must we assume that the construction of the Cote St. Paul tunnel is included in this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, not at all. The Cote St. Paul tunnel is to be constructed under the Lachine canal, and that item would be in the canals vote. This item applies only to railway projects.


Edgard Jules Wermenlinger: I thought it was a deferred project.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Government owned enterprises.
Canadian National Railway Company.
588. Amount required to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 1939-40 to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the National company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport,

Supply-Transport-Railway
Service
made from time to time by the national company, to the Minister of Finance and to be applied by the national company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) arising in the calendar year 1939, including such supplementary contribution to the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island railways employees' provident fund as may be necessary to provide for payment in full of monthly allowances under the provisions of the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island Ra ilways Employees' Provident Fund Act, notwithstanding the limitation contained in section four of the said act, and including such supplementary contribution to the Grand Trunk Railway of Canada superannuation and provident fund as may be necessary to enable payment to be made of monthly allowances under the rules and regulations of the fund, notwithstanding the limitation contained in section thirteen of chapter sixty-five of the statutes of Canada, 1874, but not including amounts charged to proprietor's equity of the national railway system as defined in chapter twenty-two of the statutes of Canada. 1937: Canadian National Railways, exclusive of eastern lines, $37,430,000; eastern lines, $6,300,000; total, $43,750,000.
Abraham Albert Heaps: This is the annual item which we vote, generally on short notice, and I suppose it is almost a headache to the minister. My purpose in rising is just to ask a question rather than to deal particularly with this vote. In another chamber the question of unification of the two railways in Canada has been discussed within the past few days, and a vote which is of a certain significance was taken on the question. I do not ask the minister to make a statement on the spur of the moment, but later perhaps he would be prepared to state the intentions of the government with respect to the vote taken in the other chamber on the unification of the two railways.
committee in an endeavour to avoid giving
the assurance that an abundance of money will be provided, no matter what deficits the railway may ask us to meet. The psychological effect of providing for the deficit beforehand is bad. I just mention it because the procedure seems to me unsound.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am inclined to agree with my hon. friend except for one thing, and that is that I know of no other way under parliamentary practice of making this money available when it is required. The expenses of the railway go on each month of the year, and interest obligations must be met as they become due.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Quite so.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As I say, I know of no other way of making the money available when it is required. It must be admitted that the estimate is more or less of a guess 'because no one can really estimate what the earnings of the system will be in the next twelve months. It depends on the size of the crop, on business conditions and on a number of factors that are practically unpredictable. But after a careful review of the prospects the railway makes its estimate-one may call it a guess- and the money is provided. If more is required than parliament votes we have to resort to governor general's warrants, because the money must be available when required. If less than the estimate is required we are in the happy position of not having to spend it. Each expenditure is carefully reviewed by the directors before a call is made upon the government.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad to make a statement in due course.


Henry Herbert Stevens: 
Henry Herbert Stevens: This amount is made up of a number of items.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Henry Herbert Stevens: If each department is budgeting for failure, for a deficit, the inevitable tendency is so to operate the department that it will achieve a balancing with its anticipated deficit. I have been thinking over the matter a great deal lately, and I believe this practice is one of the reasons- it may be a minor one-why we are not getting better results on the railway. Provision for interest on guaranteed bonds and such items has to be made, but I do not think we should budget for a deficit on the operating side.


Clarence Decatur Howe: May I point out that there is no budgeting here for an operating deficit. This is a deficit in the financial requirements, bonded indebtedness, amounting to about $50,000,000.
Supply-Transport-Air Lines


Henry Herbert Stevens: There are a great many sides to that. The point I am getting at is that each year we make provision for a deficit, and that becomes the habit of mind of that branch of the department. It is a matter of psychology.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Trans-Canada Air Lines.
590. Amount required to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 1939-40 to the Trans-Canada Air Lines (hereinafter called the air lines) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made from time to time by the air lines, to the Minister of Finance and to be applied by the air lines in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the air lines) arising in the calendar year 1939, $488,941.
George Halsey Perley: There is a matter I wish to bring to the attention of the minister, but I am not sure that this is the appropriate item.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is quite all right to discuss it on this item.


George Halsey Perley: A number of fox farms have been established in Saskatchewan, and to-day fox farming is an important industry in that province. The minister will recall that a year ago, last spring, difficulty was created by aeroplanes flying low over some of the fox farms, resulting in a considerable loss to some of the operators of the farms at the season of the year when the litters of puppies were coming, and at such a time if the mother fox is disturbed she is in the habit of killing her young. This spring I have had complaints from perhaps a dozen fox farmers in the eastern part of Saskatchewan, from Moosomin to Regina. Our fox farms in the province are becoming quite large institutions, and the loss caused in this way can be considerable. Complaints were made to the minister last spring. One farmer in particular at Moosomin, on the Hiawatha farm, which is quite a large farm with a number of foxes, suffered severely, losing a large number of puppies. Aeroplanes are passing over there inspecting the route for what they call the radio beam, and they fly back and forth and often very low.
Has the minister received any complaints this year, and has any request been made for compensation for losses thus sustained? An effort should be made in the spring of the year to see that over certain areas the planes do not fly promiscuously round at a low altitude, disturbing the foxes. It is a difficulty which the fox farmers have to contend with, and I would ask the minister to give the matter his attention with a view to seeing

that this practice be avoided in the spring of the year. It is only for a few weeks in the spring of the year that there is this difficulty.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am well aware of the complaints that have been made. I think we have had only one complaint from one of several farms, and on each occasion flying instructions were sent out that the planes were not to fly below a certain altitude in the vicinity of these ranches. It is a worry not only to the fox farmers but also to the pilots, who are just as anxious to avoid causing trouble as the fox farmers are to avoid having trouble. I think the air line is doing everything it can to avoid the trouble of which my hon. friend speaks. I have had several conversations with the officers, and I know they are very much impressed with the desirability of doing so. I know of no claims having been entered, although they may have been entered direct to the air line without my knowledge.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Does the hon. member
remember when horses used to be afraid of automobiles?


George Halsey Perley: We have got past that.
That has been remedied.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Loans and investments.
Cfib Loans to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation repayable with interest at a rate to be fixed by the governor in council on such terms and conditions as the governor in council may determine and to be applied in payment of expenditures on the construction, extension or improvement of capital works of the broadcasting facilities of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in Canada. Such loans, with interest, shall be a charge on the revenues of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation next after the charge imposed under the provisions of section 17 of the Canadian Broadcasting Act, 1936, and shall not exceed in the w'hole (revote $500,000), $750,000.
Denton Massey: Where is it proposed to
spend this money?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Of this money $500,000 is a
revote. Through an error, the money authorized as a loan for last year was not drawn out before the fiscal year closed. The balance of $250,000 is a free balance available as a loan to the corporation for capital purposes, but no allocation has been made of it to date.


Denton Massey: Is this vote to be used for the studios in Toronto?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, there is no appropriation
this year for the studios in either Toronto or Montreal. The half million dollars was for the station at Aulac, in the maritimes, and for the prairie station at Watrous.

Supply-Transport-Harbours Board


Denton Massey: It is not planned to go ahead this year with the studios in either Toronto or Montreal?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National harbours board.
1,55. Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures during the calendar year 1939 on any or all of the following accounts: Reconstruction and capital expenditures (revote, $366,500) - Montreal, $1,050,870; Vancouver, $51,500; total, $1,102,370. Less amount'to be expended from replacement funds, $180,175.
Total, $922,195.
Angus MacInnis: I should like to say a few words in connection with this vote. I have had some correspondence with the International Union of Pile Drivers, Bridge, Dock and Wharf Builders, in Vancouver. They complain that certain work being done by the national harbours board at Vancouver which is usually done by members of this international organization is now being done by the ordinary maintenance staff of the harbours board. Two jobs in particular are referred to-the repair work on No. 1 jetty and Japan dock at Vancouver. I got a return of the correspondence, as far, I believe, as it was available, which passed between the harbours board, the Department of Labour, and the secretary of the organization to which I have referred. As the union could not get satisfaction from the harbours board in connection with this work, they took the matter up with the Department of Labour, and asked the officials of that department to determine whether the work in question was repair work or was work which is ordinarily done by this union for other firms in British Columbia. I am informed by an official of the Department of Labour that the decision of that department was to the effect that it was not maintenance work in the general acceptance of that term; that it was work such as was usually done by members of the pile drivers, bridge, dock and wharf builders. In the return, sessional paper No. 257, which I received, is the following letter from the deputy minister of labour to the secretary of the local union No. 2404, pile drivers, bridge, dock and wharf builders:
Ottawa, October 13, 1938.
Dear Sir:
On behalf of the Honourable Mr. Rogers, Minister of Labour, I am to acknowledge your letter of the 6th instant in which you refer to work being done on No. 1 jetty and Japan dock, Vancouver, by the national harbours board. It is noted that your organization holds the view that what is being done by the harbours board is not in accord with regulations laid
down by the government's fair wages policy, also that you desire a copy of any ruling made in this matter.
In reply I may state that it is the policy of this department in submitting wage schedules to govern contract work involving the construction of bridges, docks, etc., on the Pacific coast, to provide for the payment of the wages claimed by your organization for the various classes of labour engaged thereon. Your representations on the subject, which were made through Mr. F. E. Harrison, western representative of this department at Vancouver, were brought to the attention of the national harbours board in Ottawa but the board declined to make effective the rate claimed by your organization on the ground that the work involved was maintenance work. In this connection I might mention that the national harbours board is incorporated and is not a department of the federal government.
Yours truly,
W. M. Dickson,
Deputy Minister of Labour.
I discussed this matter with Mr. Dickson, and he informed me that his department had ruled that this was not ordinary maintenance work. The question under dispute here is that the work being done by the maintenance employees of the national harbours board is being paid at the rate of, I believe, fifty cents an hour, While the wage rate of the International Union of Pile Drivers, Bridge, Dock and Wharf Builders is one dollar an hour.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Would the hon. member state what the work was?


Angus MacInnis: It was work on No. 1 jetty.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I can state it.


Angus MacInnis: Just one word, and I will let the minister reply. It was a general rebuilding of the docks concerned.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Which dock?


Angus MacInnis: No. 1 jetty and Japan dock at Vancouver.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot agree with my hon. friend that it is a renewal. In the case of the Japan dock the planking on top had become worn and some new planking was put in. The capital cost of the Japan dock was, I believe, some sixty or seventy thousand dollars, and the total expenditure for a new deck was only $4,000. It was only for planking the deck of the dock. In the case of No. 1 jetty the cost, on a capital expenditure of $1,000,000, was less than $4,000. It consisted of replacing a few timbers that had rotted. I am speaking not of labour costs only but of cost of labour and material in both instances. We maintain a certain maintenance crew in Vancouver and they are paid fifty-two weeks in the year, so that they are in a somewhat different position

1776	COMMONS
Supply-Transport-Harbours Board
from union carpenters or bridgemen, whose position is necessarily temporary. We believe we are entitled to use our maintenance men on ordinary maintenance work, and there is no doubt that the replacing of top planking on the dock and the placing of a few extra timbers in a large jetty is definitely maintenance work rather than reconstruction or new construction.


Angus MacInnis: The point I wish to make is that the Department of Labour has definitely ruled that this work is not maintenance work in the ordinary sense of that word. The repairs are such that it is considered general renewal work.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Will the hon. member read the ruling of the department in which it is stated that as a result of departmental investigation they find this is not maintenance work?


Angus MacInnis: I did not read it here, but the deputy minister of labour, Mr. Dickson, told me quite definitely that they regarded it as general renewal work and not maintenance work in the ordinary sense of the term.


Clarence Decatur Howe: So far as I know, they have never told us that.


Angus MacInnis: I am quite sure it was made known to the board by Mr. Harrison at Vancouver. We must consider the situation as it affects the organization for whom I am speaking. If the harbours board has general renewal work of this kind done by men at a much lower rate, at half the rate normally paid for that class of work then in other parts of the province the contractors will have similar work done at the same rate, and the net result will be to lower the wage scale and worsen the working conditions of these men and of labour generally. The harbours board, as I have ascertained, is a very well paid body with a salary per member of $10,000 a year, and I think it ill becomes such men to begin chiseling in on people who, because of their intermittent work, receive a very small annual wage. The least the harbours board could do would be to observe the conditions laid down in the Fair Wages and Hours of Labour Act, 1935, which gives the basis on which work is done and the wages paid on all work to which the government contributes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What are the wages of bridge-men?


Angus MacInnis: One dollar an hour. I should like to read one of the letters in the return. It is from the secretary of the union to Mr. Frith, chief engineer, Vancouver harbour board, and is dated August 18, 1938. It reads:

Dear Mr. Frith:
In reference to our talk of this morning in regard to the work being done at No. 1 jetty, Vancouver harbour, on the changing and renewing of caps.
The members of this organization maintain that under no consideration could this he called maintenance work, and should be paid for at the rate established by this organization, namely, $1 per hour instead of the 50 cents per hour as at present being paid by the harbour board.
This class of work which is being done all up and down the coast and around Vancouver harbour and the Fraser river, has always been recognized as coming within the category of the work performed by members of this organization, a condition which has been established here for quite a number of years and recognized by all the private contractors and paid for at our rate of wages.
And I might add that these conditions are recognized by the Department of Labour in drawing up their schedules, they having copies of our agreement with the contractors' association. And I might further add in closing that all work of a like nature, in the repairing and renewing of docks, wharves and piers should be done at the rates and conditions as established by this organization.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Speaking from my own experience on work of this kind I cannot agree with the hon. member. Once a structure is built, nominal repairs are needed from time to time, and they should be regarded as maintenance. We have a maintenance crew; we pay the foreman 75 cents and the other men 55 cents an hour and retain them the year round. We could follow my hon. friend's suggestion, but it would mean laying off the maintenance crew, because we could not carry a maintenance crew who did not do maintenance work. We could dismiss the men who do permanent work and have the work done by contract men hired as required. My hon. friend is hardly doing the men a service by insisting that on a $4,000 job in connection with a $1,000,000 jetty the work should be taken out of the hands of the maintenance crew and done by contract.


Angus MacInnis: It does not necessarily have to be done by contract, nor is it necessary to dismiss the maintenance crew. A certain number of maintenance men have to be kept on in any event.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not at all.


Angus MacInnis: Oh, yes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They could be hired as needed.


Angus MacInnis: When there is general renewal work to be done such as is claimed is the case with this $4,000 job, it cannot be regarded as a small job.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is small in proportion to a $1,000,000 pier, and it includes materials too.


Angus MacInnis: It is a considerable job. I contend that the harbours board could

Supply-Transport-Harbours Board
engage these men without letting contracts for the work. There may be a difficulty in that regard with which the minister is better acquainted than I am, but I say that a definite attempt has been made to break down the standard of living that has been built up over a great many years through organization. When labour conditions are broken down on projects carried out under the jurisdiction of the government private employers will be quick to take advantage and establish similar conditions. The government, in the employment of labour, in the wages paid and in the working conditions maintained, should be model employers and should set an example to private employers of labour. If they did so, labour organizations would not have to be continually struggling to maintain standards of living on government works.
I wonder if the minister would not give this matter further consideration. I suppose this particular work is finished now, but there will be other work of the same kind, and I would ask the minister to try to see this matter from perhaps a little different point of view. There is the workers' side of the question. I think if he would try to see the point of view of the organization for whose members I am speaking, we could avoid disputes of this kind in the future. And particularly where the Department of Labour rules that the work on a particular project is not ordinary maintenance work, the harbours board should accept the decision of the Department of Labour.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The harbours board is always willing to cooperate with the Department of Labour. Personally I have never heard of this matter. I understand only one letter was received; a reply was sent and nothing further heard of the matter. I may say I have seen more of this work than my hon. friend will ever see if he lives to be a hundred, because it has been my profession all my life, and I regard this as work which would not ordinarily be sublet; it is a perfectly simple maintenance job, on which the principal expenditure is for material, and has always been done by the Vancouver harbour board. It is the ordinary repairs to a timber dock made annually, done by an ordinary maintenance crew of the elevator or harbour. I see nothing wrong in it, but I assure my hon. friend that I am not going to allow it to be a subject of contention between the unions of Vancouver or the Department of Labour, it is not important enough. If work of any magnitude arises we will certainly give consideration to having it done by contract.
71492-300J


Angus MacInnis: I wish to thank the minister for that statement. I do not know what: correspondence he had in this matter-


Clarence Decatur Howe: I had none.


Angus MacInnis: -but I am told that there is a whole file of letters which passed between the union and the harbours board. As a matter of fact, I believe most of the letters were unanswered.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The correspondence must have been with the local office. I am told', that only one letter came to Ottawa; that was answered and that ended the correspondence so far as Ottawa is concerned.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National harbours board.
591. To provide for payment to national harbours board of the amounts hereinafter set forth, to be applied in payment of the deficits (after payment of interest due the public but exclusive of interest on dominion government advances and depreciation on capital structures) arising in the calendar year 1939, in the operation of the following harbours: Quebec, $48,626: Churchill, $90,526.
Howard Charles Green: I should like to ask the minister a question about the position of air transport in northern Canada, what is commonly known as our bush flying, which has really been the outstanding development in aviation in Canada since the war, and which, as the minister knows, has meant so much to the country as a whole. I understand that by reason of the rates paid under the air mail contracts, these flying companies in northern Canada are having a great deal of difficulty. The difficulty seems to be that the post office allows underbidding. For instance, if one company has an air mail contract, when the contract expires new tenders are also called from other companies. That may or may not be right, at any rate there is a good deal of complaint. So far as the Trans-Canada Air Lines are concerned, provision is made in their act that any deficit in operation-should be covered by the postal rates, at least after a certain period. I do not remember offhand at what date that provision cornea-into effect, but provision is made for the deficit to be paid out of the post office funds: I believe in the United States special arrangements have been made within the last year for the setting of fair air mail rates based on the service rendered rather than on competitive contracts. Would the minister explain the situation and let us know whether it might not help to have an inquiry into the whole situation, or whether the board of transport commissioners might not be given jurisdiction to decide what is a fair air mail rate
4778	COMMONS
Supply-Transport-Harbours Board
for a particular route? The Postmaster General said the other day that one contract had been referred to the board of transport commissioners, but I understand there is no provision for doing that in any statute. The situation is of enough importance to Canada to make it desirable that it be cleared up.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Too much emphasis is perhaps being placed on air mail rates in the north. The air mail represents only about five per cent of the poundage that is carried by planes in the north. The difficulty there is, first, that too many companies have competed in the same territory. That is the fundamental difficulty. A second difficulty is that as mining becomes more settled the traffic tends to drop. The construction period in a mining [DOT]development is usually the busiest for air 'transport. As they get down to normal operations there is some slackening off in the .tonnage of freight moved by air.
We are endeavouring to straighten out that situation. A year ago we included in the Transport Act regulation of the assigning of routes in the north, the granting of licences for routes, and, second, the regulation of rates. Under the law the rates do not apply to air mail routes covered by the Post Office Act. But we are attempting to cut down the number of operators in the field, lessening the number operating over a particular route, and providing that no new operator will be licensed for that route or territory unless he can show need and public convenience, which will be very difficult to show for a couple of years. That is, he will have to show that the route is not adequately served by existing facilities.
In the matter of rates a study is now being made by the transport commission with the operators as to rates prepared for publication in the northern area. When these rates are published, it is the intention to enforce them and require the operator to charge the rates he publishes. This plan does not immediately eliminate competition. Under the section, if two air lines are operating over the route each is entitled to a licence, but it will at least prevent more operators from entering the field.
So far as air mail rates are concerned, they are, of course, the rates the operator offers for the performance of the service. No doubt it seemed like a good bargain at the time; if he is a little tired of it now, it is not the fault of the Post Office Department, because that department has not forced any air mail rate on any operator. However, as the contracts fall in, the competition will not be as intense as before, because in order to compete

the operator must have a licence for the route; in other words, an operator cannot compete for an air mail route unless he holds a licence to fly that route. In one contract that fell in recently, the Post Office Department asked the advice of the transport board as to a reasonable rate for its renewal. I dare say that policy will be followed in the future if it works out to the satisfaction of the Post Office Department.
In any event more has been done in the last year to straighten out the situation of the northern flyer than has ever been undertaken before, and I think that another year of operation will improve the situation greatly. But we cannot get away from the fundamental condition that there are. too many companies operating in the north on the same routes, and that as mining becomes more settled there is apt to be a falling off of traffic.


Howard Charles Green: Are licences issued also by
the aviation branch of the Department of Transport? I understood the minister to say that they are issued by the board of transport commissioners; is it also necessary that an operator get a licence from the Department of Transport?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The routes are licensed by
the board of transport commissioners. In addition, the operator must have a licence, indicating the air worthiness of the machine. Each machine must be licensed. He must have a different kind of licence from each.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I am in the same position
as the hon. member for Vancouver South. I should like to ask the minister a question with regard to railway crossings, but the item has been passed. May we revert to item 585, which has reference to the following:
Amount to be applied towards the actual cost of construction work for the protection, safety and convenience of the public in respect of highway crossings of railways as the governor in council may from time to time determine.
I would refer particularly to a condition at Fairvale, New Brunswick, near the city of Saint John. I do not know whether this item is broad enough to cover the situation there. At that point the road runs under the railway ; the opening is very narrow, and I believe it is considered one of the most dangerous spots on the roads of New Brunswick. There have been many accidents at that point, and parents of school children do not permit them to go under the railway, because of the dangerous situation. The result is that on their way to school they pass over the railway. Possibly the minister will remember that a number of meetings were held in that community to discuss the situation, and I

International Labour Conjerence
believe a petition, was forwarded to the minister asking that something be done. Would a situation of that kind come under this vote, and if so, will anything be done this summer in an effort to eliminate the dangerous situation at Fairvale?


Clarence Decatur Howe: In other years the grade crossing vote could not apply unless it involved the elimination of a crossing. For that reason it would not apply to the project the hon. member has described, because the crossing is there and the necessary work would involve only an improvement. I might say that last year we broadened the scope of the million dollar vote so that we could take care of projects of the kind described. For that reason the application would be a proper one to bring before the board of transport commissioners. I have no recollection of having received an application in the matter; but in any event it should be sent to the board, rather than to me, because it has under its control the administration of the grade crossing fund. If the proper authorities will make application to the board of transport commissioners, or if they will renew an application already made, I am sure their representations will receive due consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Wednesday, May 31, 1939