Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: Mr. Speaker, I regret to rise to a question of privilege. I wish to refer to a few short words in a long editorial reflecting on me, on this subject, in the Ottawa Journal of Saturday, April 25, in which it says, referring to my remarks in this house on Wednesday, April 22, "The member for Broadview goes places when he gets on his feet." It says I saw New York slums from the Grand Central station. Times square, the Waldorf-Astoria and Fifth avenue. I did not-nor those here from an Ottawa golf club. There was no "if" about it. I saw them in New York with the late Doctor Hastings, the great medical health officer. I only referred to those across the Ottawa river as one concrete case in Canada. I saw these in detail the day before I introduced the housing motion of last year, and again on July 3 and 4, 1935. According to citation 157 of Beauchesne I deem these errors an interference with and reflection upon a private member. The editor says I spoke without that "profound preliminary thought that is supposed to be an attribute of statesmanship." I did not. I devoted fifteen years of thought with the late Doctor Hastings to secure slum clearance and housing, and a modern health department in all its forms. He wishes I had come closer to the facts and had a little more sympathy and understanding. When I need these I will not go to this editor for such aid. I know the facts. While I will always respect and admire the proprietor of this paper, its editor "understands everything and knows nothing" of slum conditions as I have seen them.



DAIRY INDUSTRY ACT

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 56, to amend the Dairy Industry Act.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Explain.


Mr. GARDINER:: This is a short amendment having to do with the different sizes
of prints in which butter can be made up for sale. I understand that in British Columbia they are in the habit of using a three pound print, while in other provinces they usually use one or two. The law now confines us to a maximum of two, and the intention is to extend it to permit the use of any multiple of one.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. MacNEIL:: 1.	How many persons have been dismissed trom the staff of the Vancouver harbour commission since October 23, 1935?
2.	How many of those dismissed during this period were ex-service men?
3.	How many persons have been appointed to the staff of the Vancouver harbour commission since October 23, 1935?
4.	How many of those appointed during this period were ex-service men?


Mr. HOWE:: The following information supplied by the Vancouver harbour commissioners:
1.	Twenty-seven.
2.	Six.
3.	Fifteen.
4.	Three.


Mr. McLARTY:: 1.	How many persons have been dismissed trom the staff of the Vancouver harbour commission during the period commencing August 7, 1930, and ending October 23, 1935 f
2; How many of those dismissed during that period were ex-service men?
3.	How many persons were appointed to the staff of the Vancouver harbour commission during the said period?
4.	How many of those appointed during the said period were ex-service men?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The following information supplied by the Vancouver harbour commissioners:
1.	Seventy-six.
2.	Twenty-two.
3.	One hundred and thirty-two.
4.	Forty-six.
(Note: During this period mentioned the commissioners assumed operation of Lapointe pier, including staff of that pier; also Second Narrows bridge and also operated elevator No. 2 for one year).


DELORIMIER POSTAL STATION, MONTREAL
Mr. DESLAURIERS:: 1.	What is the name and address of the owner of the building situate at 4574 Papineau

Questions

street, Montreal, occupied by the Delorimier postal station?
2.	Wliat is the municipal valuation of this building?
3.	What is the monthly and yearly rental for that portion of the building occupied for postal purposes?
i.	What amount has the government expended on said building, for improvements, repairs and maintenance from 1930 inclusive to 1936?	.	,
5.	What is the floor space occupied by the
post office?	.
6.	When does the lease of the building
expire ?	,
7.	During the depression was any reduction made in the rental?


Mr. ELLIOTT (Middlesex):: 1.	J. 0. Malo, 1856 De LaSalle ave., Montreal, P.Q.
2.	Land, $4,000; building, $16,000; total,

3.	(a) $300; (b) $3,600.
4.	From date building rented May, 1, 1931, to January 31, 1936. Minor repairs and improvements, $602.03 for four years and nine months. (Large improvements and repairs made by owner). Caretaking, heating, lighting, power and water, $4,976.70 for four years and nine months.
5.	4,650 square feet.
6.	May 1, 1937.
7.	On expiration of lease May 1, 1936, the rental reduced to $3,000 per annum.


ALLEGED SHORTAGE OP POTATOES
Mr. STEVENS:: 1.	Has the attention of the government been drawn to a widely circulated press dispatch stating that there was a shortage of potatoes in Canada?
2.	Is the government aware that such a statement was unwarranted by the facts?
3.	What steps, if any, have been taken to correct the false impression made by this dispatch?
4.	Is the government aware that retail prices of potatoes have been advanced to an unwarranted extent in many instances as a result of the dispatch referred to in question No. 1?
5.	Has any inquiry been instituted to ascertain who was responsible for the dispatch, and as to whether or not holders of storage supplies of potatoes were implicated in circulating the information for the purpose of increasing prices?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	No. On the contrary, reliable information shows that the crop and marketing position warranted a sharp price advance in potatoes. Commercial storage holdings in Canada at April 1st totalled only 48,152 tons against 246,673 tons in 1935. New York and

Boston wholesale prices had taken a sharp rise and attracted shipments from the maritime provinces which otherwise would have been available to demand in central Canada. The following are extracts from the New York Packer, a prominent trade journal:-
"New York, April 10-Maine growers still fortunate enough to own potatoes were this week feeling that they, for the first time in recent years, were in control of the market situation, and started naming their own prices. Varying factors entered into this bullish outlook, the foremost being that practically all remaining supplies were in their hands, the second being the comparatively small amount of potatoes which still remain to be shipped, and the third and not the least important being the continued heavy demand from widely scattered regions which in former years at this period would be drawing stock from producing districts closer to home. .
"New York, April 17-The potato market ruled firm to slightly stronger here this week with supplies clearing readily at prices higher than last week's. The present bullish tone continued in the shipping sections, particularly in Maine, and even many conservative distributors were gradually losing their bearish attitude.
In the Maine sections growers were reluctant to haul their stocks even at the $3 per barrel figure and remained firm in their conviction that the peak price had not been reached. . .
One cargo arriving by boat, totalling around 90 cars, reached the market during mid-week and this stock cleaned up rapidly, opening prices of $2.15 being speedily advanced to S2.25 per 100-lb bag, all sales f.o.b. Port Newark. . .
Another boat arrived carrying approximately 80 cars of Prince Edward Island potatoes and these also cleaned up speedily at attractive prices ranging from $2.50 to $2.60 per 90-pound bag, depending on size. . . .
Taking the entire potato market as a whole the present tone is one of extreme strength, and while there continues to be an undercurrent of uneasiness over the sudden rise in prices, the willingness displayed by buyers at all important marketing centres to absorb receipts at the higher levels seemed to indicate that values at the moment were fairly sound."
"New York, April 24-The potato market continued firm to slightly stronger this week both locally and in the shipping sections of the country. While price advances have been spotty there has been no instance of weaknesses since the recent upward surge began a few weeks ago, and the steadiness of the

Questions
advance both at country points and in the consuming centres appeared to sustain the bullish attitude taken by the majority of growers in Maine. . . .
While the main portion of the 200 oars which have been moving daily from Maine were destined for eastern markets, some middle western buyers were still taking on more than their customary purchases from that area for this late period of the season. This condition was partly brought about by high prices of Idaho offerings, as well as the disappointing quality and size shown by the early new stock from Florida in the opinion of many in trade circles. ..."
3,	4, and 5-Answered by No. 2.


VIMT RIDGE MEMORIAL
Thomas Langton Church: . 1. When is the Vimy Ridge memorial in France to be unveiled?
2.	When will an announcement be made of Canada's representatives there, and who is to be invited to attend?
3.	Will soldier members of parliament who served at the front be included and sent?
4.	Will the representatives of the various soldier organizations, the Canadian Legion and others, be included and to what extent?
5.	What will the memorial cost when completed ?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: 1.	July 26, 1936.
2.	It is expected that it will be .possible to make an announcement shortly.
3.	Under consideration.
4.	Has not been considered. This has not been requested by these organizations; and it is understood that a large pilgrimage is proceeding to France under the auspices of the Canadian Legion of the British Empire Service League, to attend the unveiling of the Vimy Ridge memorial.
5.	It is estimated that the cost of the construction of the memorial, together with the building of roads, the preparation and laying out of the grounds and incidental expenses, will be about $1,290,000.


EXPORTS OF BUTTER
Mr. BERTRAND (Prescott):: 1.	Did the government help to take some butter off the Canadian market during the calendar year 1935?
2.	If so, was it done under a scheme under the Natural Products Marketing Act
3.	How many pounds of butter were then exported under such scheme, and on what dates?
4.	How much money did this cost the government (a) as allowance on butter; (b) as cost of administration of scheme?
5.	To whom were these amounts paid?
12739-146J


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
Pounds
3.	September 23	 150,757
September 24	 2,744
September 25	 44,645
September 26	 35,44S
September 27	 361,454
September 28	 183,064
September 30	 137,592
October 1	 171,111
Octobei 2	 264,023
October 3	 185,472
October 4	 666,693
October 5	 170,231
October 7	 56,056
October 8	 756,607
October 9	 381,827
October 10	 383,889
October 11	 568,947
October 12	 166,740
October 14	 44,800
October 15	 162,129
October 16	 182,151
October 17	 344,587
October 18	 934,615
October 23	 44,800
October 25	 107,956
Total	 6,508,338
4.	(a) $73,781.75.
(b) $ 356.66.
5.	(a) A. A. Ayer Co. Ltd.,
Montreal	 $18,850.99
Hodgson, Rowson Co.
Ltd., Montreal .. ..	5,149.74
Lovell & Christmas,
Ltd., Montreal.. ..	7,569.20
Olive & Dorion Ltd.,
Montreal	 19,816.46
Canada Packers Ltd.,
Montreal	 20,050.65
Swift Canadian Ltd.,
Montreal	 2,344.71

(b) Stationery	 $ 2.40
A. C. Fraser, Ottawa, Ont., travelling	expenses..	..	22.68
H. M. Jackson, Simcoe,
Ont., travelling	expenses	36.00
Bell Telephone Co.,
Ottawa	 256.41
Canadian National Telegraph Co	 39.17

Questions


PHILIPPE CHALIFOUR
Mr. WERMENLINGER:: 1.	Is Philippe Chalifour of Beauport county, Quebec, employed as labourer by the marine department at Quebec?
2.	If so, on what date did he commence his work?
3.	Has he been dismissed; if so, when?
4.	Upon whose recommendation?
5.	For what reason was he dismissed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: 1 and 2. He was employed as labourer from March 8, 1917.
3.	He was dismissed April 1, 1936.
4.	Wilfrid Lacroix, M.P.
5.	Political partisanship.


HAVRE ST. PIERRE, QUE., WHARF
Mr. WERMENLINGER:: 1.	To whom was the contract given for the construction of a wharf at Havre St. Pierre, county of Charlevoix-Saguenay?
2.	Who were the tenderers?
3.	At what figure was the contract awarded?
4.	How many toises of stone will be required in the construction of said wharf?
5.	What is the agreed price per toise?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	Victor E. A. Belanger and James Bertrand.
2.	Belanger & Bertrand Cie de Construction de la Cote du Nord Ltee; The Foundation Company of Canada Ltd.; Collet Freres Ltee.
3.	860,043.60.
4 and 5. Approximate quantity of stone required and price as per tender: Stone riprap walls, 150 cubic yards at $2 per cubic yard; flat stone coping, 150 lineal feet at 60 cents per lineal foot; rock fill, 4,800 cubic yards at 81.50 per cubic yard.



WEIGHTS AND MEASURES ACT

Mr. STEVENS:: 1.	What was the number of prosecutions conducted during the calendar year 1934 and the calendar year 1935. under the Weights and Measures Act, in Ottawa and Toronto?
2.	Ilow many of these prosecutions were based on information laid against individual branches of chain stores, and how many were based on information laid against independent merchants ?,
3.	How many convictions were secured against individual branches of chain stores in Ottawa and in Toronto?


Mr. EULER:: 1.
1934,	Ottawa	
581935,	Ottawa	
91934,	Toronto	1661935,	Toronto	
55

		Inde-
	Chain	pendent
1934, Ottawa. .. .	... 44	14
1935, Ottawa. .. .		9
1934, Toronto... .	. .. 105	61
1935, Toronto... .		55
1934, Ottawa. .. .		. 42
1935. Ottawa.. ..		. none
1934, Toronto.. ..		. 105
1935, Toronto.. ..		. none



VANTAGE, SASK., MAIL SERVICE

Mr. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: 1.	Who held the contract for carrying the mail from the post office at Vantage, Saskatchewan, to the railway station, prior to December 1, 1935?
2.	Was he dismissed; if so, for what reason?
3.	Who is the present holder of the contract
for carrying the mail from Vantage post office to the railway station?	_
4.	Were tenders called for the contract; if not, why?
5.	Who recommended the present holder of the contract and what is the remuneration for said services?


Mr. ELLIOTT (Middlesex):: 1.	Thomas Wiseman.
2.	No. His contract expired March 31, 1936.
3.	M. D. Rowe.
4.	No-contract rate not in excess of $200 per annum.
5.	Dr. T. F. Donnelly, M.P. $200 per annum.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS

Mr. BROOKS:: 1.	What was the total tonnage of each grade or size of coal used at each point of consumption on the Atlantic division of the Canadian National Railways from January 1, to December 31, 1935?
2.	From what persons or companies was coal purchased for said railways during said period, what tonnage from each and what price was paid to each for the different sizes f.o.b. cars Canadian National Railways tracks?
3.	What quantity of coal produced in Nova
Scotia was used by the Canadian National Railways in New Brunswick during the calendar year 1935?	.
4.	What quantity of coal produced m New Brunswick was used by the Canadian National Railways in Nova Scotia during the calendar year 1935?
5.	With what persons or companies have contracts been entered into for the supplying of coal to Canadian National Railways, Atlantic division, for the year 1936?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This refers to a matter of
the internal operations of the Canadian National Railways, having to do with the purchase of supplies. It has not been the custom to answer questions of this kind in parliament, and I must ask that the question be dropped.

Merchant Marine


Mr. SPEAKER:: Dropped.


Mr. LAPOINTE (Matapedia):: Have the Canadian National Railways during the past year engaged new engineers or firemen on the Campbellton-Mont Joli division? If so (a) what are their names and addresses, and (b) what were the dates of their engagement?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This also has to do with the internal management of the Canadian National Railways. I must ask, for the same reason, tlhat this question also be dropped.


Walter Edward Foster: Dropped.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. MacINNIS:: 1.	How many motor vehicle licences were paid for by the dominion Department of Public Works in (a) the city of Victoria; (b) the city of Vancouver, for the year 1935?
2.	Are all cars for which the government paid a motor licence the property of the government ?
3.	What is the make of the cars used by officials of the Department of Public Works in the cities mentioned?
4.	What was the purchase price of each car owned by the government in the cities mentioned ?
5.	What is the name and occupation of the government employees operating these cars?
6.	Are there departmental regulations which require that all government cars must be marked with the name of the department or other distinguishing marks or letters?
7. What are the regulations, if any, pertaining to the use of government owned cars for other than government business?


PUBLIC BUILDINGS-COAL
Mr. BROOKS:: 1.	What persons or companies were awarded contracts for the supplying of coal for the dominion public buildings in the maritime provinces for the coal year 1935-36?
2. What tonnage was given to each contractor. and what buildings was each to supply, also what was the grade of coal and price per ton?


FARM LOAN BOARD STAFF, REGINA
Mr. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: 1.	Who were the members of the farm loan board staff at Regina prior to October 14, 1935?
2.	What was the salary of each?
3.	Who are the present members of the farm loan board staff at Regina?
4.	What is the salary of each?
5.	How many loans have been paid out by the farm loan board at Regina, between October 13, 1935, and the present date?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. STEVENS:: For a return showing: (1) A list of the names of those convicted of infractions of sections 63 or 64 of the Weights and Measures Act during the calendar year 1934 and the calendar year 1935; (2) the date of the signing by the minister of the authority to prosecute; (3) the date of the conviction; (4) the name and address of the premises where the offence occured in each separate instance, for both chain stores and independent stores.



CENTRAL FINANCE CORPORATION

Mr. POULIOT (for Mr. Bouchard):: For a copy of the application for incorporation of the Central Finance Corporation and all correspondence supporting the application and petition for incorporation. Also a copy of the returns made by the Central Finance Corporation after incorporation to the date of the passing of this order of the house.



GOVERNMENT MERCHANT MARINE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day.
Mr. R. E. FINN (Halifax):: Before the orders of the day are called I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Railways (Mr. Howe) concerning a matter of great importance to the people of Nova Scotia, and particularly to the port of Halifax: whether or not the report is true that the Canadian merchant marine, now plying between the port of Halifax through the Panama canal to Australia and New Zealand and back through the Panama canal to New York and Boston, thence to Saint John and to Halifax in winter, and up the St. Lawrence, has been sold to the Elder Dempster line, and for what amount?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, it is true that the line operating direct between Halifax and Saint John and Australian and New Zealand ports has been sold. I think the hon. member who asked the question is confusing this with another service, the Halifax-West Indies service, which, as he suggests, does call at Boston. This latter service has not been sold, and there is no intention of selling it. I may say that the sale of the Australian service has been under consideration by the government for several years. The boats had reached the end of their usefulness; they were very slow and unsuitable for the service, and the matter had reached the point where their replacement would have to be reconsidered. The government was faced with the alternatives of scrapping the boats, replacing them, or selling them. It was felt that this disastrous experiment in ocean shipping did not warrant further expenditures in the same direction. It was

Merchant Marine
found possible to sell the boats under conditions that guarantee the service for at least five years, without subsidy and with boats faster and more suitable to the trade. Arrangements were made whereby the new owners would take over the staffs, both ashore and afloat, of this company, and conditions were imposed which, I think will protect every interest that could possibly be in jeopardy through the sale. We regard the price obtained for the boats as a very fair price under present conditions.


Robert Emmett Finn: May I ask the minister another question? I was not speaking of the Canadian National Railway boats, because those are the five Lady boats and the freight boats that go to the West Indies.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Robert Emmett Finn: This is in explanation of a statement made by the Minister of Railways. I wish to ask this further question: whether the service which is guaranteed without subsidy for five years protects the captains and officers and crew, who are Canadian, as to continuance in the service of the steamship company to which these boats have been sold.


An hon. MEMBER:: The minister said so.


Walter Edward Foster: Order. I think that is enough.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I intended to cover in my first statement the answer to the last question. The terms of the sale provide that the staff and crews both afloat and ashore will be taken over by the purchasers.


Mr. BENNETT:: In view of the precis of the arrangement that has been given verbally by the minister, I assume that at a convenient moment he will lay the papers on the table of the house.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be very glad1 to do
that. The papers are not quite completed at the moment.
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS reported lease to Canadian pacific of



WINDSOR-WINDSOR JUNCTION LINE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Robert Emmett Finn: I have another question of importance to address to the Minister of Railways. Has he or have the government knowledge that a contract is about to be entered into with the Canadian Pacific Railway for a long period of years, leasing the road from Windsor to Windsor Junction, which is owned by the Canadian National Railways?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, I think if the hon. member would make this a notice of his question I should prefer to answer it tomorrow.


Walter Edward Foster: This will stand as notice of the question.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Speaker, in making his statement yesterday as to the date of delivery of the budget I assume that the Minister of Finance was aware of the fact that standing order 28 provides:
On Thursdays and Fridays when the order of the day is called for the house to go into committee of supply, or of ways and means, Mr. Speaker shall leave the chair without putting any question, provided that, except by the unanimous consent of the house, the estimates of each department shall be first taken up on a day other than Thursday or Friday.
As the situation stands at present no motion could be made for the purpose of delivering the budget.
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance): I recognize the correctness of my hon. friend's quotation from the rules of the house, but in other years a way has been found to overcome this difficulty. Last year, if I remember correctly, the budget was delivered on Thursday, and whatever method was followed then I hope the house will permit me to follow on this occasion.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am only offering the suggestion that the minister should make the appropriate motion so that the matter will be regularized before Friday, because if I raised the point on Friday the minister could say very properly that he had been taken unawares and without having been given an opportunity to deal with the situation.


Mr. DUNNING:: If it is necessary to do something in advance I will do it.



GERMAN CRUISER EMDEN

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. S. W. JACOBS (Cartier):: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Is the proposed visit of the German cruiser Emden to Montreal being made with the approval and consent of this government?


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: 1 may say to my hon.

Supply-Fisheries
friend that the visit of the Emden to Montreal has no political significance. The visit is not at the invitation or on the initiative of the government of Canada but is part of a routine visit which the Emden is making to various countries in South America, Central America and North America, which visit includes Montreal. The visit was concurred in by the Canadian government as long ago as September of last year. To cancel the visit at this stage would be to take a course that is unprecedented among nations at peace.


Samuel William Jacobs: Then I should like to ask the Prime Minister the further question as to whether the city of Montreal has not in some way protested against this visit and communicated with the government with respect to it, inasmuch as riots are feared on the arrival of the boat.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I may say to my hon. friend that the mayor of Montreal has communicated with the government. I would not say protesting against the visit but drawing attention to the possibility of the visit not being as pleasant as those on the Emden might expect, but the government hopes that the good sense of the people of Montreal will govern the situation.


Mr. T. C. DOUGLAS (Weybum):: May I ask the Prime Minister if any money is being expended by the federal government to extend a welcome to the Emden?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am not aware of any money having been specially appropriated for the purpose, but I assume that the ordinary courtesies will be extended which are customary when vessels of foreign countries visit Canadian shores.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OP FISHERIES

[Stage Direction]
To aid, in cooperation with provincial governments concerned, in reestablishment of needy fishermen, $300,000.
The CHAIRMAN:: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Frederick George Sanderson: Carried.


Mr. KINLEY:: At eleven o'clock last night I was speaking in connection with this item-


Frederick George Sanderson: I would direct the attention of the hon. member to the fact that the item is carried.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Frederick George Sanderson: I am entirely in the judgment of the committee; if it is the wish of the committee the discussion may proceed.


John James Kinley: At eleven o'clock last
evening I was speaking on this estimate, dealing with the subject of beam trawlers. At that time I said I would speak of the matter again at some future time, and I prefer to do so on the ordinary estimates.


Jean-François Pouliot: Before this item is carried may I ask the minister if any representations have been made in regard to this matter by Hon. John Hall Kelly, minister without portfolio, of Quebec?


Hon. J. E. MICHAUD (Minister of Fisheries) :: The answer is no.


Jean-François Pouliot: Thank you; very good.


Mr. SENN:: May I ask the minister if any of this money is to be used for inland fishermen?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is not the intention so to use it.


Robert Emmett Finn: I would like the minister to give us some idea as to how this $200,000 is to be expended.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I thought I gave the
information last evening. If the hon. gentleman wishes to know what amount will be apportioned to each province I may tell him that it is not possible to give that information at the present time. Each province has to furnish a sum equal to that supplied by the federal government, so we must ascertain how much the province is going to put into the fund.


Robert Emmett Finn: That was not the question I asked the Minister of Fisheries. I did not ask who was going to expend the money if the provinces do come into the scheme; I asked as to the policy of the department with regard to the expenditure of the money. For what specific purpose is it going to be used?


Frederick George Sanderson: Is the hon. member for Halifax speaking on item 314?


Robert Emmett Finn: I am speaking on item 315.


Frederick George Sanderson: The committee is still on item 314. Shall the item carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To aid in expanding the sale of the products of Canadian fishermen in foreign and domestic markets, $200,000.
Mr. STIRLING:: Would the minister be good enough to explain to whom this money is to be paid?
Supply-Fisheries


Joseph Enoil Michaud: This appropriation is to be expended exclusively under the control of the dominion government. It is for the purpose of helping the fishing industry in respect to its relations with the dominion government, that is so far as the dominion has jurisdiction over the fisheries. Those interested in this industry complain that their greatest handicap is the limitation of markets. It is well known by hon. members who represent fishing constituencies or who have any relation to the fishing industry that within the last several years foreign markets for our fish have dwindled to such an extent that to-day in some parts of the country some classes of fishermen think it is not worth while any longer to pursue that vocation.
At to the causes of this situation I will not undertake to speak in detail; they are numerous and far reaching. But we have to face the fact that the situation exists, that our foreign markets for cured or salt or dried fish have practically been taken from. us by European countries within the last ten years. It is represented by those interested in the industry that something should be done to try to regain these markets and convince the people of these countries that they should again purchase Canadian fish. In order to do all that is possible to satisfy these people it is intended to spend a little money this year in an endeavour to get back some of those markets.
As to how we intend to proceed, we shall call in conference those vitally interested in the export of dried and cured and salt fish, who suffer most, and on the Pacific coast the canned salmon industry, which is the largest and most important on that coast, and try to find out from them the best means that they have to suggest of going about it. With that cooperation, as far as money can help, we shall try for this year to comply with their views and experiment in methods of regaining our markets.
We shall also try to develop our domestic market. It is useless to ask foreign countries to favour our fishing industry if we do not set a good example. It is well known that Canada is the country in which per capita there is the least fish consumed. So that we have to try to develop our local market from coast to coast by educating our people to the advantages of using more fish and less meat. This will be done by a system of demonstration, and advertising and propaganda through the press.
As to the United States market there is also room for development. We expect to use part of this money to persuade our

neighbours to the south to give a preference to Canadian fish because it is better than foreign fish. One of the reasons why we have lost some of our good customers in the American market for cured and salt and dried fish is that these classes of fish were consumed mostly by people in the United States of foreign descent, and with the cessation of immigration into the United States and the fact that those who went there some years ago have been educated away from fish to the extent that it was part of their diet in their country of origin, the use of fish has been gradually abandoned. So that we are going to try to educate them; it is to be a campaign of education both in our home market and in the foreign markets, in' order to induce the people to revert to their old love, good Canadian fish.


Grote Stirling: The minister said at the beginning of his remarks that this was to apply to that portion of the fishing industry which is under dominion control, did he not?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Well, no; my statement might have been open to that understanding, but we are not going to discriminate against any class of fish or any province. It is to be Canadian fish, whether from the inland provinces or the Pacific or the Atlantic coast.


Mr. REID:: I wonder if the minister would take into consideration the matter that I [DOT] discussed last night in connection with the selling of more fish in the home market, namely the cost of fish in the interior provinces. While fishermen on the Pacific coast receive from one and a half to ten cents for a whole fish weighing from ten to fifteen pounds, the price becomes almost prohibitive once it reaches the interior provinces. Many fishermen, especially in the last few years, have gone in for smoking their own catch, but with the high cost of transportation when those fish reach the prairies or the interior province markets they become too expensive for most people. Price, and of course freshness and quality, have a great deal to do with the consumption of fish, but particularly price. Will the minister take into consideration that aspect of the matter?
Mr. MICHAUD; I shall be glad to do so.


Robert Emmett Finn: In the past we had markets for our smoked and dried fish in the West Indies, in Cuba and at times in the United States, as well as the domestic market. The West Indies market is being lost, for two reasons. The first and main reason is that 'through mechanical refrigeration the fish caught by people of the West Indies them-

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selves can be preserved and therefore there is not the necessity of obtaining fresh fish from the Canadian Atlantic coast fisheries. The Cuban market has been lost because of the fact that there was an agreement that the intermediate tariff should apply if we bought from them twenty-five per cent of what we sold them. We did not do so and they raised the tariff, with the result that to-day our fish cani enter Cuba only under the highest possible tariff and therefore are practically excluded. The United States market was lost in 1922 as a result of the Fordney-McCumber tariff. It has continued to be lost, and the Prime Minister stated in connection with his reciprocity pact entered into with the United States that they would not consider reducing the duty on fish because the New England fishermen in Gloucester would not permit it, therefore the American market is practically closed to us. I believe there is an opportunity to recover the Brazilian market, because the producers of Finland, who had been supplying that market, are not sending fish equal to ours, and for that reason there is a possibility of development.
I now come to the question of our own domestic market. I do not speak in criticism of the Minister of Fisheries, nor has a word of mine been offered in that sense

unless it was constructive criticism

but I do say that if we are to branch out and are to obtain the Montreal and Toronto markets for fresh fish from the maritimes some arrangement must be made under which the government will pay part of the freight. Fish could then come through by express at a rate equal to the present freight charges. If the rates are not adjusted we shall not be able to capture this market.
I well remember that when the Prince Robert, of which the leader of the opposition spoke the other day, went to the West Indies and to South America on a good will tour she was supposed to show the goods and wares of Canada, and to induce the people in those places to buy in Canadian markets. But when the boat arrived at ports in Bermuda and British Guiana and on the South American coast those who were in charge of the exposition desired to see things ashore, and went ashore for that purpose. The people who wanted to see goods coming from Canada came aboard the ship, but there was practically no person to talk to them.
For these reasons I am glad that this vote has been placed in the estimates, and I am further pleased to note that the Prime Minister is now in the house to hear my observations. I repeat what I said last night,
that every protection is given to the wheat growers of the west. To-day we have the marketing board, and the wheat board over which Mr. Murray presides. In addition we have the wheat exchange in which futures are purchased, a procedure which so far as I know is to a great extent a system, of gambling and is contrary to the provisions of certain sections of the criminal code. The wheat marketing board fixes the price of wheat at 87J cents, but it will bring only 81 cents on the market. The government makes up the difference between 81 cents and 87cents. Why not have a fish marketing board, under which the government would fix the price, and pay the difference between the fixed price and the market price? Let the government treat the fishermen in the east as it treats the farmers in the west. I throw this out as a suggestion and a constructive thought that may be considered, as I believe it will be, by the Prime Minister and members of his cabinet when they sit in the east block and consider a better way of bringing relief to those sorely stricken people living along the coast of my own province, along the coast and the north shore of New Brunswick, and along the shore of the St. Lawrence river and the bay of Fundy.
I am not parochial. I would have spoken for British Columbia, but the interests of that province were well represented last night by the hon. member for-


Jean-François Pouliot: Comox-Albemi.


Robert Emmett Finn: My hon. friend is trying to help me out, but his pronunciation does not help me because he speaks the language of the great province of Quebec, although he speaks English well, too. However, I do not speak both languages. I thank him for his suggestion. Last night the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) spoke about lions which had to be destroyed on the Pacific coast, and he referred to some other species which at the present time I cannot remember. I am afraid of lions, and that is the reason I remember his reference to them ; I am sure he did not speak about tigers.
With the aid of these suggestions to the Minister of Fisheries and the Prime Minister I hope a solution may be found through which the fishermen, who take the greatest risks and suffer the greatest losses, and who are without protection for their boats or their lives, may reap the benefit of legislation which will permit them in future to carry on an industry under fair conditions and not such as exist to-day where fish sold by them at two cents per pound are sold in the stores at 15 or 16 cents per pound. Who is getting the difference?
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I believe the establishment of a fish marketing board operating under government assistance would help to put the fishermen on their feet and would make them happy in their homes, and their children would not have to stay in bed to keep warm. They would be able to buy shoes for their families, and their children would be able to go to school, which they cannot do to-day. These are conditions existing in Nova Scotia, and in my own constituency of Halifax. I am sure my colleague from that constituency, who has travelled from one end of the county to the other, will agree with me that unless something is done along the lines I have suggested the fishermen will not receive their just rights. There are only two things left to them, starvation and finally the grave.


Mr. NEILL:: If I may be permitted to say so, the minister's definition of his policy was a little vague, perhaps necessarily so. I noticed that in speaking of British Columbia he said he would apply to the canned salmon association, and I gathered he would be guided almost wholly-


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No, I do not think he used that term at all.


Alan Webster Neill: What is it?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: "To the industry."


Alan Webster Neill: Does the minister say he did not use the word "association"?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: "The industry."


Alan Webster Neill: The canned salmon industry?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The salmon industry.


Alan Webster Neill: "Canned salmon," I thought, were the words used.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, he mentioned that.


Alan Webster Neill: Did the minister not use the word "canned"?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Not in the sense my hon. friend wishes to imply.


Alan Webster Neill: There is only one sense in which the word "canned" can be used. Hansard will show which is correct, but if the minister says that he said he was going to apply it only to the industry, then that is quite satisfactory.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: That was my intention.


Alan Webster Neill: Yes; that is satisfactory, then. May I project myself into the realm of the future and uncertainty and say I hope that when he does make the application, on the advice of his deputies, he will not apply himself wholly to the association of canned salmon manufacturers, because they represent

only one phase of the industry. There are other large bodies of people interested in other phases of it. For instance there is now an increasing sale of salmon in the fresh state. Facilities for freezing salmon in an attractive and more or less permanent form are so much improved to-day that the sale of salmon in that condition is increasing. There is an organization called the Kyuquot Trollers Cooperative Association which is worthy of assistance. I believe the whole of their output is handled in the fresh fish market, and I would hope that the minister would make an effort to address himself to that association in order to get advice as to how any sum to be spent in or on behalf of British Columbia might best be distributed.
More than once the minister stated that he would seek to educate the people of Canada and the United States, and those in foreign countries, in the use of our fish. Would he care to say that he was referring to advertising?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes, in some form.


Alan Webster Neill: In some form.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes, some form of
advertising.


Alan Webster Neill: The education of the domestic population, I assume, would be along the lines already inaugurated of having an educator, I think in this case a Lady, going round and giving instructions how to prepare fish in tasty form. I join with the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) in saying that I doubt very much the further efficiency of that method. Canada has been pretty well covered already in that way. The educator, so-called, has gone into quite small places and instructed the women how to prepare tasty dishes made of fish, and I think the average Canadian woman is now fairly competent, if she was not before, in preparing fish for the family's use. What is really needed is to bring the price of fish down to a point where the housewives can afford to buy it. You do not need a political economist or a university graduate to tell women which is the cheapest form of food and on which form she can spend her husband's money to the best advantage in providing sufficient nourishing food for her husband, who is perhaps doing manual labour, and her family.
The fact of the matter is that the trouble caused by the small demand for fish in Canada is that the price is too high in proportion to the price of beef or pork. A man or woman can get more satisfying food at a cheaper price by buying the cheaper cuts of meat than by buying any form of

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fislh. That is the trouble, and until you eliminate that, your education as to how tasty salads can be prepared and the like of that will be of no benefit except to the wealthy people, who generally can afford to keep an experienced chef who knows all about that anyhow, and so you will not increase the sale of fish much in that way. What you want to do is to bring the price of fish to the domestic housewife down to a point where it will compare with beef or the domestic pork raised on the farm. I suggest-and I think the hon. member for New Westminster hinted at this last night- that the way to do it is to continue the policy which was inaugurated during the war whereby a direct payment was made by the government towards the freight charges on fislh shipped from either the Atlantic or the Pacific ocean to the domestic market in central Canada. In that way, without giving fishermen hand-outs, and without bringing the provincial governments into the matter at all, you will provide a ready market for our fish, and particularly for the cheaper forms of fish for which a market is most lacking. We have on the Pacific coast an abundant supply of the cheaper forms of fish, such as chum, salmon, herring and pilchard, which we could sell if we could only obtain a market. If a bonus could be paid to help pay the freight charges on fish from both east and west to the central market it would enormously stimulate the demand for fish because the fish would sell itself, and you would not need an educator to come along and tell people that they ought to buy it. No amount of educating will make a woman buy an article of food which is too costly for her emaciated purse under present conditions.
The same thing might apply by way of subsidy on fish for export, but probably it would not apply to fish exported to the United States, because I understand they have some kind of countervailing arrangement by which any bonus of that kind-and it would be regarded as a bonus-would be immediately added by way of dumping duty, I suppose, to the duty on the fish entering the United States. But there are imany parts of the world where I think such a condition does not obtain, and where we could probably pay a portion of the shipping charges to the foreign market without causing the duty against the fish to be increased on its arrival.
Investigation might well be made into the so-called Latin markets in South America as well as in Italy, but in South America particularly, because I think it is a newer and a
less saturated market, and nearer at hand. There should be an opening down there for canned pilchards, which are a very oily fish and not cared for by the northern people, but which might be palatable to those who have been accustomed to that class of fish in Italy. There is an enormous opportunity there for canned pilchards. We now use them for fertilizer and feed for stock, and so on. I think one cannery firm alone on one occasion put up twenty thousand cases of canned pilchards as an experiment. If that market could be developed along the lines I suggest, by sending a man down to those countries to form connections there, it might be a very good thing.
I do not know whether I would be out of place in dealing further with the question of advertising, but I should like to say this: There is nothing, I think, beyond keeping a private yacht, in which money can be more easily wasted without any results at all than in ill-considered advertising. You can spend enormous sums of money in advertising, and if it is not properly applied; if you do not print the right sort of advertisement, or if it does not appear in the right papers, the money is utterly wasted, and I would urge the minister, if he is going into the advertising end of it as he indicated, to employ experts just as he would employ a lawyer to advise him in legal matters or a doctor in medical matters. I just want to give a few examples of the kind of advertising that has been done, three articles which I have under my hand, illustrating the way not to advertise. I suppose these advertisements originated, or they ought to have, with the director of publicity about whose duties and responsibilities I was inquiring when the main estimates were up.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: What is the paper?


Alan Webster Neill: I have three, and I will name them as I come to them. This advertisement is printed in the Western Fisheries. Hon. members can see the size of it.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Is that the paper in which the hon. member recommended to the department we should print an advertisement?


Alan Webster Neill: No. I here and now recommend that you cut out advertising in this publication. It reads as follows:
There's no mistake about this. In the long run it's the dealer with the best fish who does the best business. It's a rule of life that quality wins.
That is absolutely true. Who could reject that statement?
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Joseph Enoil Michaud: We could not publish
anything that was not true.


Alan Webster Neill: No, but you could print an awful lot of things that are true but are no use printing. "Be good and you will be happy"; "early to bed and early to rise"- these are truisms-


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is good to remind
people of them sometimes.


Alan Webster Neill: -"honesty is the best policy," and so forth. All these are truisms, but are they worth spending hundreds of dollars to print? I think I might call the statement in this advertisement a platitude. It does not help a't all to sell fish, which is the chief object sought in this advertising. It is printed in a fish paper. When a doctor or a lawyer is starting out in business, does he put his card in a medical or legal journal? I think they would advertise in papers in which they would be likely to reach patients or clients, and a fish advertisement should appear where it is likely to reach consumers.


Jean-François Pouliot: If a platitude is autographed by a great man it becomes valuable.


Alan Webster Neill: The next advertisement is in the Pacific Coast News. This is the paper the minister thought he had me on, when he interrupted a moment ago to ask if I recommended that an advertisement be put in it. I did recommend advertising in this paper because it is a good, sound fishermen's paper, run by that cooperative association to which I have alluded, but I did not recommend that stuff like this should be put in. I am criticizing not the fact that the advertisement is in this paper, but the stuff that is printed. Let me quote from it:
A strong pull and a pull all together.
I will not read the whole of it. It goes on to say:
It is the constant purpose of the Department of Fisheries to do its full part in this essential effort.... Its supervisors and inspectors and its headquarters staff may be counted on at all times to work wholeheartedly with the men in the fisheries to serve the industry and the nation.
I am afraid if that were read out to a meeting of fishermen, this reference to cooperating with the men in the fisheries would be received with laughter, with ribald laughter perhaps not unaccompanied by profanity. The illusion is that the department is cooperating wholeheartedly with the men in the fisheries. That is not my experience, nor does it appear to be the experience of the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid),

who said last night that the whole set-up of the fisheries department was against the men.
This is another one. It begins in large red headlines: "He will never go there any more." I will not read it all but it is to this, effect: A man goes into a restaurant to get a meal. The advertisement describes the day-it is a nice day. The restaurant is clean and the waitress is pleasant. That is the only nice thing about it, that the waitress was pleasant. Well, he got a fruit cocktail which was all right and the soup was O.K. Then he ordered fish. He ran his eye down the menu and saw fish tastily described and he ordered it and got it. It looked very good and apparently it was well cooked; he was going to enjoy it. He took a bite and the fish was so stale that he could not eat it. The advertisement then goes on to describe his reaction, how he called first of all for the waitress, then the head waiter and then the manager and told them what he thought. By the way, this is stated at the bottom to be a true story. There is a certain magazine called True Stories and it seems to me it would have been better to take an article out of that magazine; it would .have been attractive at any rate, something which this is not. It says:
The remainder of the meal was satisfactory but the thought of the bad fish remained with him. "I'll never go there any more." He told a friend and he has probably told other friends about the stale fish. It may be, too, he hesitates now about ordering fish at other restaurants.
I think that is highly probable. After reading this advertisement-and it has been published for months and months to make people fish conscious, to make them rush out and buy fish-I went to a cafe, looked at the menu and saw "fish," and I was about to order fish when I stopped and said to myself, "Let me see; what did I read about fish the other day"? And then the thought of stale fish and ptomaine poisoning crossed my mind and I decided I had better leave fish alone. That was the reaction which I as an ordinary person had to this advertisement. The fish was liable to be stale and might cause ptomaine poisoning.
I do not think that ;s a good way to promote the sale of fish. No one reading such an advertisement would run violently down a steep place to order fish; I do not think so. It seems to me that an altogether different method should be followed in advertising. Let us cover up these things; let us keep quiet about them. If the man did happen to get stale fish on some occasion, advise him to forget it and assure him that

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you will make it right with him. But don't keep suggesting that fish is liable to be stale and to produce very unpleasant consequences to those who eat it.
That was what I had in mind when I said that a good deal of money could be wasted in the wrong sort of advertising. If you want to make a success of advertising you need to keep two things in mind. First of all, you must have a sound article, not an inferior one, because you cannot advertise a bad article into sale. Experience has proved that. Then you have to put the article up in an attractive form and advertise it well. Don't stint in advertising it; advertise it in the right places and in the right way. I have done a little advertising of my own and I know that while you can spend money and get returns you can also spend money and get nothing. Those of us bom in the old country and of about my age will remember the publicity given a certain soap many years ago. The success of that soap was due largely to the fact that it was a good article, but a good deal depended upon the manner in which it was advertised. The company bought a picture, or at any rate a copy of a picture by a famous painter-


Richard Bedford Bennett: The original, by Sir
John Millais.


Alan Webster Neill: Was it the original? At
any rate, it showed a child in the bath and you could hardly see the soap at all. The child was reaching over the side of the bath for a cake of soap and underneath were the words, "He won't be happy till he gets it." Nothing was said about the soap; it did not give the name of the soap, unless the name appeared on the piece of soap. That became a household phrase and men quoted it in parliament-"He won't be happy till he gets it." That sold more soap than would have been sold if the picture had shown the child slipping on a cake of soap and breaking its neck.
Let me try to give the minister a picture, because this is the only chance I shall have' to do so. And he must not despise it because it comes from a back-bencher of no importance, because after all Scripture speaks of wisdom coming from the mouths of babes and sucklings. I want to suggest a picture that might help to sell our salmon, and it is our salmon I am talking about, the best in the world, British Columbia sockeye. Have something after the fashion of Sir John Millais' picture: A beautiful river, a fine sunny day, a Peterborough canoe tied up to a grassy bank, in the background a farm scene or an orchard in bloom, a young man and
his girl at lunch on the bank. The young man says, "These are swell sandwiches; did you make them yourself?" The girl says, "Yes, 1 made them myself. I used British Columbia sockeye, the best in the world." Or she might be saying, "Take another." The slogan could be any of these: "Take another," or "The best in the world," or something of that sort. There you would have all that is desirable, as the. manufacturer of that soap found. The picture must present first of all something that will catch the eye as one turns over the leaves of a magazine, and in the second place it must be something that will stick in the mind after you have read it. Above all it is most essential that the article advertised should not be too definitely indicated. If such an advertisement met with half the success, or one-tenth of the success of the soap advertisement I have mentioned, then certainly the money would be well spent. Let us forget all about the fish being stale. British Columbia sockeye is the best salmon in the world and we should so advertise it and emphasize the fact that it is put up under ideal conditions. Advertising along these lines would produce results and the money spent on it would be well spent.


Mr. MacLEAN (Prince):: I think the
minister is to be congratulated upon this vote which he has placed in the estimates. I believe the idea of trying to help our fishermen by providing markets is one which will commend itself and bring better results than anything else. We have various kinds of the finest fresh fish in the maritimes but our difficulty is in finding a market. While my hon. friend (Mr. Neill) was speaking he referred to the cost of getting our fish on the markets of the world. I have on my desk a bill sent me a few days ago by one of our fishermen in the maritimes. He sent 125 pounds of fresh smelts to the New York market. They sold at eighteen cents a pound, or a total of $22.50, but the charges amounted to $13.39, or over forty-three per cent of the total value of the fish.


Richard Bedford Bennett: He shipped them by
express.


Alfred Edgar MacLean: Yes, they were shipped by express. There is the difficulty. For a long time we have been endeavouring to get lower express rates, and possibly this line could be taken into consideration, under this vote, by the minister. It is true that shipping to the United States is subject to international express rates, and that we have no control over United States rates. But I
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believe that if the departmental officials would take this matter up officially with the Canadian express companies and also try to get some cooperation from the United States companies, a great saving could be made to the benefit of our shippers in the east. When forty-three per cent of the value of a small shipment of fish goes in commissions and express rates, it is pretty discouraging to the man who is endeavouring to catch fish and carry on. I feel, however, that in respect of this item the minister is moving in the right direction. We need to expand our markets, and I believe there is a greater field in respect to fisheries than in anything else. Not only have we to find markets but we must also instruct our fishermen in putting up fish in such a way that it will reach the markets of the world in the best possible condition. I wish the minister the best of success. I bring these points to his attention to indicate a line of activity which I think could usefully be pursued.


Mr. MARCIL:: I wish to say a word for Quebec in connection with this vote. The minister represents a constituency which is across from my own, so that he is familiar with the conditions existing in the locality. Matters in Gaspe peninsula are complicated by the fact that the maritime fisheries were transferred, some ten years ago, to the Quebec government, and the people, rightly or wrongly, feel that the federal government has not given the assistance which these fisheries have a right to obtain and which is given in New Brunswick and other maritime provinces of Canada. Anything that is done for needy fishermen should be extended to them, because the neediest fishermen I know of in this dominion are those of the Gaspe peninsula. They have lost their Italian market for cod; they have 'been handicapped in South America, and they are in a worse condition than they have ever been within my knowledge, which extends over more than half a century.
As the minister is aware, His Excellency Monseigneur Ross, Bishop of Gaspe has been advocating that something be done to prevent the Gaspe fishermen from disappearing entirely. For many years, unfortunately, we neglected the farmer in this country. As a result the farmer left his farm and went into the cities; and now close to two-thirds of our population is in the cities and only a little more than one-third in the country districts. We have ceased to be an agricultural nation-although agriculture, after all, is and will always remain the mainstay of Canada- in order to attempt to become an industrial nation. Colonization has been neglected. Can-

ada was built up, not only in Quebec but in Ontario, by pioneers who were settlers on the land. During the last few years their descendants have given up farming and have been lured to the cities. The same thing will happen with regard to the fisheries. If the fisherman cannot make a living out of his occupation and is deprived of the assistance he should receive he cannot be blamed if he gives up the fisheries.
Ever since this country was discovered by Jacques Cartier, when, four hundred years ago, he landed first in the basin of Gaspe, the Gaspe fisheries have been noted as the best on the north American continent. I am sure that the minister, with the authority he possesses, with the youth that is his and that I hope will remain with him, with the intention to make good! in his new department, will give the Gaspe and the north shore of the St. Lawrence fisheries the attention they deserve. I am glad that he is trying to cooperate with the local government so that an understanding will be brought about, because in the last ten years the Taschereau government has spent very large sums of money, in the counties of Gaspe and Bonaventure and on the north shore of the St. Lawrence, in establishing warehouses and refrigerators, giving assistance to fishermen to build their boats, and so on. The dominion government likewise has spent very large amounts on breakwaters, wharves and undertakings of that kind. Unfortunately we in the Gaspe peninsula have not the technical knowledge which is required. That knowledge can be supplied only by the dominion goverment. A request has been made for many years that a biological station be established in the peninsula of Gaspe. The late administration promised that this would be done. An investigation had been made, the report had been favourable, and the province of Quebec was prepared to send some of its young men to Europe to become better acquainted with the questions to be dealt with in that community. I hope the minister will see that from this amount provision is made for the establishment of that biological station. That will meet one complaint which I hear every day. The other one relates to the allocation of officials to educate the fishermen where fish can be found.	.
I come back to my main argument, that the four main needs of Canada, if the country is to continue the progress it has made in the past, are farming, stock raising, fishing, and mining. Industry comes after all that. If the others are not prosperous there can be no future for industry. We are not, per se, an industrial people. We are alongside an industrial nation, probably the most advanced in

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the world, and it is out of the question for us to compete with that nation industrially. But we have in the northern part of this continent a land which is fertile, which providence has blessed with all that a country can produce. We can raise the finest grain and the finest cattle, and there are no better fisheries. I hear our friends from British Columbia complaining about the state of the fisheries in that province. When I spend my summers on the Gaspe coast I am often compelled, owing to the absence of local fish, to eat fish that comes all the way from British Columbia.


Thomas Reid: Pretty good.


Charles Marcil: Very good fish of its kind But you are far ahead in the fish market as compared with the people of eastern Canada. I do not know whether the seasons have favoured you more. They say that more fish is caught in one day in British Columbia than we can catch on the Gaspe coast in a month.


Thomas Reid: That is true.


Charles Marcil: Although improvements
may be due in British Columbia they are also badly needed on the Gaspe coast. I am sure that the minister will give this matter the attention it deserves.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I cannot resist the pleasure of answering the remarks of my genial friend and neighbour, the hon. member for Bona-venture (Mr. Marcil). I know he is very much interested in the situation as it affects his constituents, because they are subject practically to two jurisdictions. In 1922, as is well known, an arrangement was made with the government of Quebec as a result of a decision of the privy council. Part of the supervision of the fisheries was allowed to be administered by Quebec, some reservations being made to the dominion government in respect of supervision, inspection and scientific development. Since then at different periods the people from the Gaspe peninsula have complained that the dominion government did not fully discharge its obligations under this agreement. Be that as it may, I wish to assure my hon. friend that the Department of Fisheries will try to discharge its obligations towards the people of that part of Quebec as fully as its duties towards fishermen in all other parts of the country over which we have jurisdiction.
I hope that during the coming season it may be possible to implement the promise which was made by my hon. friend and start on that biological station which has been mentioned for the lower St. Lawrence. The vote now under consideration naturally will help these fishermen, because there will be no discrimination against any class of
fishermen, any producers of fish, whether in Quebec, Ontario, or the maritime provinces. All the fishermen of Canada will be treated alike; there will be a drive to open up markets for them, and I assure my hon. friend that there will be no discrimination against the fishermen of the Gaspe peninsula. I may say that since taking office I have been corresponding with the Minister of Fisheries of Quebec in an endeavour to avoid duplication in the expenditure of money by the province and the dominion and to see that this money is directed into the proper and most profitable channels. I think by close cooperation we shall succeed in helping the fishermen of the Gaspe peninsula, who are so well represented by my hon. friend.


John James Kinley: To return to the matter
of advertising, I agree with much of what has been said by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni. The hon. gentleman has a fine sense of what will appeal, and I have no doubt he would make a great writer of advertisements. However I think it only fair to point out that these advertisements appear in trade papers. They are read by the people interested in the fish business, and that appeal is to have them sell good fish, because if they do not sell good fish they cannot expect success in their business. To that extent such advertisements are good. I agree, further, that advertising is a highly specialized business, and I believe that many firms in the fresh fish business are in good condition financially and able to do some advertising of their own.
Subject to these reservations, Mr. Chairman, I think some advertising should be included in any fisheries program. We must not forget that because of an advertising campaign which made the people believe that oranges in the morning were good for the health, there are oranges on the breakfast table of almost every man in Canada who can afford them. The same was true of raisins a few years ago; a much greater market was created because it was pointed out that in some way raisins were good for the health of the person who ate them. In an advertising campaign in connection with fish we should stress the value of fish as a food, because it has splendid an<k special food value. You will get people to eat things if they think that by so doing they will improve their health; no greater appeal can be made. The fisheries association, I think, had as a slogan, "Every Day a Fish Day." I do not think they can put that over. On the other hand I think "Any Day
Supply-Fisheries

a Fish Day" is a good slogan. If in an advertisement you overstate your case or say something which is questionable, in order to produce the result you desire, your advertisement is faulty and is not worth the money you pay for it. A great deal of -money is spent in advertising to-day. Sometimes we think it is wasted, but it is only preparing the ground, as it were, for what is to come later. I think the minister should be most careful in order to see to it that the advertisements of his department are intelligent; that they have the necessary appeal, and that they form only a part of the program which he has in mind for the sales development of our fisheries.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Supply-Fisheries

tary appropriations to the exclusion of anyone else. Human nature does not cease to manifest itself in the same old way merely because hon. gentlemen happen to be ministers of the crown. The tenacity with which you will find ministers clinging to the prerogatives of their office when it comes to the expenditure of public moneys is one of the memories that those who have been responsible for government will always carry with them. Human nature is not the least bit different because it happens to sit to the right of the Speaker to-day, and next year to his left. If I suggest to the minister that by cooperation with the Department of Trade and Commerce he will accomplish his objective, I think at the end of his term-and the end always comes, whether the time be short or long-he will look back with some satisfaction to an achievement which at the moment he might not have thought gave him the glory -I am using the word in no offensive sense- that should accrue to his patriotic zeal to increase the sale of fish; he will look back to an accomplishment and an achievement that will give him satisfaction although it has been brought about by cooperation with another member of the administration with which he is connected. I think all of us know something about that. And if cooperation and teamwork are applied in this case in connection with this substantial item, the results will be satisfactory. I think I can almost hear the language that was used in days gone by when a like sum was made available for propaganda work in Great Britain, and my very busy and very earnestly engaged friend from Vancouver Centre, in the multitude of his reminiscences and recollections may be able to recall some of the observations of days not long since past.
I wholly agree with what has been said by the two hon. members who preceded me, and I assure the committee that this money, large though the amount may seem to be, is not too large to carry on the propaganda work throughout the country, especially if we are going to do something to assist in the domestic consumption of our fish and to make it easier to move fresh fish from the seaboard of the Pacific to the prairies and from the Atlantic coast to the central cities of Ontario and Quebec.


Mr. McIVOR:: When the Minister of Fisheries is advertising I hope he will not forget to advertise the best fish in Canada, namely the lake Superior trout. The hon. member for Comox-Alberni was right when he said that if you have a good article it will advertise itself, if it gets a start. I would suggest

some advertising for lake Superior trout. First, get a picture of a trout, because it is always a clean-looking fish, and then place under it the words, "If you get one bite even though it may be a little high"-and I do not mean price-"it always has a flavour which calls for a little more." I hope my suggestion will be considered.


Mr. MacINNIS:: I do not wish to prolong the discussion, but I should like to give a word of advice to the minister in connection with advertising. I hope he will not spend too much in advertising fish. I offer that advice because I believe that money spent in advertising in any case is that much money wasted, and is also a waste of effort. Advertising arises out of competition, and if the person who advertises is able to sell his product this means, in a limited market, that the person who sells a similar product is not able to make as many sales. In my opinion, the best way to promote the consumption of fish in Canada is to lower its price and to make it available to people with only a limited amount of money to spend on foodstuffs. If hon. members have analyzed family budgets according to incomes they will have found that families with low incomes spend a greater proportion of them in the purchase of food than do families with large incomes. This fact indicates that expenditures on foodsuffs are limited, and consequently cannot be greatly increased by advertising.
Like the hon. member for Fort William I should like to put in a good word for British Columbia sockeye, and some other good fish we have in British Columbia. I know, however that if people eat British Columbia sockeye they will not eat the trout which my hon. friend would like to have advertised. If they eat trout they cannot eat the various kinds of fish caught along the Atlantic coast. If the government embarks on advertising schemes we may find a condition where the Minister of Fisheries may have an appropriation for advertising fish and the Minister of Agriculture may have an appropriation for advertising beef. The Minister of Agriculture may want to advertise his product to encourage us to eat more beef for the benefit of the farmers in western Canada.
The fact remains that what the people of Canada need is not to know that certain foodstuffs are available but rather the means to buy them. A few years ago I read, in a monthly publication of the Department of Fisheries, the name of which I have forgotten but which the minister may remember an article which described the value of the lobster as an article of food. The article

Supply-Fisheries
went on to state that after many experiments it had been learned that after one had eaten lobster the flow of gastric jnices in the stomach was accelerated and that as a result digestion took place more easily than if lobster had not been eaten. That is all very fine; most of us like to eat lobster, but, again, most of us never have any of it.


An hon. MEMBER:: Why?


Angus MacInnis: Because we have not
the price.


Jean-François Pouliot: Do not eat the claws;
they are bad for the stomach.


Angus MacInnis: I know. I saw lobsters
long before I saw the hon. member who has just spoken. I appreciate the fact that lobsters are good to eat, and it may or may not be true that the eating of them accelerates the flow of gastric juices. I suggest, however, that along with the acceleration of the flow of gastric juices we need something to accelerate the flow of money into the pockets of our people, and if both these objects could be accomplished we could help the lobster industry immensely. But until we have that condition there is no need to advertise, because the amount of money being spent on advertising to a great extent will be wasted and will not get us anywhere.
I had one other word to say, and that was to express my appreciation of the few observations of the hon. member for Comox-Alberni with reference to cooperatives, and his suggestion that the minister should get in touch with the cooperative fishermen in British Columbia to ascertain their ideas as to the best ways in which these moneys could be expended. I had in mind the cooperatives in British Columbia, but, I think, more particularly had I in mind the cooperatives in Nova Scotia. I hope the minister will take that matter into consideration.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Before passing to the
next item may I say that before I sat down I should have said that probably hon. members of the committee had observed that as a result of a visit to Nova Scotia made by the Moderator of the United Church, and a close examination of the cooperative scheme or cooperative efforts as applied to fishermen he gave an interview in the press. He is a keen student, and believes that the St. Francis Xavier scheme as it has presently been launched may be the economic salvation of the fishermen of Nova Scotia, and in his statement, which I commend to hon. members, he is not unwilling to suggest that the possibility of the application of the 12739-147J
scheme in a larger way to other parts of Canada and to other industries might be most beneficial. I had intended to mention it, because I believe the minister will find it worth while to look into the matter. The Rector of St. Francis Xavier university is a very diligent student, and those associated with him have given a tremendous amount of effort to this matter. I believe that it must be of extraordinary merit to warrant the high commendation expressed by the Moderator of the United Church.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: First, I must thank the leader of the opposition for the valuable and constructive advice and suggestions he has given the committee and me this afternoon. On this point may I say that ever since I have taken charge of the department I have considered it my duty to look at and to study cooperatives as carried out under the scheme inaugurated a few years ago by the extension department of the St. Francis Xavier university of Antigonish county. Personally I am thoroughly convinced that it is the best method that has so far been suggested to raise the social standard of these people, and the movement has received every encouragement that the government was able to give it through the department. It is intended to spread its activities all over the maritime provinces during the present year.


Mr. CAMERON (Cape Breton):: Mr. Chairman, I have no desire to prolong the discussion on this item but I desire to make this statement with regard to the reference of the leader of the opposition to the cooperative movement sponsored by the St. Francis Xavier faculty. In the riding which I represent I have before me a picture of two communities where the fishermen who for some time were on relief have been taken off relief entirely through the splendid work of those in charge of the cooperative enterprise in those two small districts, and last summer, besides taking the men off relief, they were able to declare a small profit at the end of the season. I believe the minister cannot find a better outlet for the application of a portion of this vote than by getting in close touch with those responsible for the cooperative movement in the fishing villages in the different communities where that cooperative movement began. Although I did not read the interview referred to by the leader of the opposition, I can give first-hand testimony to the efficacy of the movement in the riding I represent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Labour-Relief Plan

[Stage Direction]
Projects already undertaken
[Stage Direction]
Amount required to provide for agricultural settlement and resettlement, $500,000.
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of Labour):	Mr. Chairman, this item
covers the amount required for agricultural settlement and resettlement. Certain commitments have already been made under existing relief settlement agreements with the provinces. This vote is designed to meet those commitments and also the anticipated amount required for further settlement under the existing relief agreements.
Mr. HEAPS:: Would the minister explain why a vote of this kind comes under the Department of Labour and not under the Department of Agriculture?


Mr. ROGERS:: The answer is that in
the experience of the late administration with the relief problem this was found bo be a satisfactory and economical means of affording relief .to those who had agricultural experience and were unemployed. It is a tripartite arrangement through which contributions are made by the dominion, the provinces, and the municipality through which the settler is located.


Abraham Albert Heaps: It seems incongruous that
a matter of this sort, which after all has to d>o with agriculture-putting men back on the land-should be in charge of the Department of Labour. I assume the work of the department would simply be to take men from the cities and put them on farms, but then what? What happens to the individual? Is there no department of the government that takes care of the people after they are put back on the land? Would it not seem logical that they should come under the
Department of Agriculture, which through its experts and technicians could take an interest in and assist those who are settled on the land?


Norman McLeod Rogers: I think I Should bring
to the attention of the hon. .member and the committee bhat in working out the details of the relief settlement schemes the Department of Labour has had from the beginning the assistance of officials of the department of colonization of the dominion government and also of the colonization branches of the Canadian National Railway and the Canadian Pacific Railway. That is to say, there is a general advisory committee composed of representatives of the departments concerned and of the colonization branches of the railways. In each province there is also an advisory committee. I quite agree with my hon. friend that supervision is a very important feature in the success of any scheme of this kind, and we propose to see to it that supervision is made as effective as possible. I think I have given my hon. friend an adequate explanation of how this particular form of settlement came under the Department of Labour. It is associated with the relief problem.


Abraham Albert Heaps: How many have been
settled under this particular scheme, and what has the cost been?


Norman McLeod Rogers: I might place on Hansard
a table which will give by provinces the number of those settled. The actual cost of settlement in each case will be found in the report of the commissioner of unemployment relief tabled in the house a few days ago The table is as follows:
Relief Settlement Plan
The numbers of settler families and the total numbers approved under the relief settlement plan reported by the provinces as at March 31, 1936, are shown in the following tabulation, which also shows the numbers who have left the land subsequent to approval, and the numbers who are still on the land.
Approvals	Abandonments and cancellations	On the Land	Settler	Total	Settler	Total	Settler	Total[DOT]vince:	families	individuals	families	individuals	families	indi viduaNova Scotia	.. 341	2,140	61	370	280	1,770Quebec	. .. 976	6,005	179	1,060	797	4,945Ontario	. .. 606	2.990	142	707	464	2.283Manitoba	.. 793	3.786	109	488	684	3,298Saskatchewan	.. 939	4,604	179	871	760	3,733Alberta	. .. 651	3,060	170	747	481	2,313British Columbia. . .,	, .. 52	285	9	50	43	235Totals	, .. 4,358	22,870	849	4,293	3,509	18,577

Supply-Labour-Relief Plan


Mr. MacNICOL:: Do the figures in the first line under the heading Abandonments and Cancellations mean that 61 of the 341 settler families have abandoned their farms or cancelled the arrangement?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The figures in the table have nothing to do with farm placements?


Norman McLeod Rogers: No, that is quite distinct from this. Perhaps I might give the totals for the entire dominion. The dominion disbursements in Nova Scotia to date is $42,276.09, and Quebec, $173,699.34. In Ontario it is $102,636.76; Manitoba, $124,135.94; Saskatchewan, $141,963.07; Alberta, $111,544.79; and British Columbia, $9,824.05. New Brunswick has not entered into the relief settlement scheme.


Sir GEORGE PERLEY:: How does the minister arrive at half a million dollars for this work?


Norman McLeod Rogers: It is for commitments under agreements entered into under the 1932 and 1934 legislation, $250,000, and an estimate of what will be contributed to the settlers under the 1936 agreement, $250,000.


George Halsey Perley: I take it that this amount is really a guess or an estimate, that the minister has made it large enough so as to be sure to have sufficient, but that he hardly expects to spend all that is here. I want to get at the idea behind it, because many of these items are blank cheques and we have been accused of giving blank cheques through the years for the whole amount. I take it that the minister puts in this half a million so as to be sure to have sufficient to carry on the work through the year but that he really does not expect to spend it all.


Norman McLeod Rogers: It does represent as careful an estimate. of requirements as we can arrive at.


George Halsey Perley: With a margin.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I think it is good practice to allow a margin. There is another item to deal with other projects that may be undertaken later.


Jean-François Pouliot: This is a very important item. With regard to colonization three things should be considered: first, the selection of lands; second, the selection of settlers; and third, good roads leading to the settlement. The trouble with colonization up to now is that there has been no definite plan, and in the province of Quebec some settlers have been sent to suitable places and others to the rocks. I have had to complain very
often of the way in which the matter has been arranged. One of my complaints is that the gentleman in charge, who apparently is doing a lot for colonization, does not know the first word about it. I refer to Mr. La-force of the Canadian National Railways. I wonder what his training is. I have mentioned his name often. His idea is to put all the unemployed in Montreal in a bucket and scatter them over the country; that is his understanding of farming and of resettlement. It is an obvious absurdity. If we take the classification of the unemployed, as given by Mayor Houde after a careful study made under General Panet, by fifteen men working for three weeks in Montreal-I will show the minister the actual list-not more than 53 out of a total of 44,500 heads of families who are unemployed in that city designated themselves either as farm hands or as gardeners. Think of that-53 out of a total of 44,500. Every member of parliament is receiving stencilled copies of stupid lectures which are given throughout the province. This expenditure should be curtailed right away. That gentleman has succeeded in getting himself elected president of St. Jean Baptiste Society of Montreal. I do not understand it; it puzzles me. And here he is telling people to go back to the land, mother land. In principle the idea is very good, but first of all there must be a concrete and definite plan. Moreover, though I have the highest regard and respect for the minister-and I have said on many occasions and repeat now, he is doing very well-this work should be done by the provinces themselves through a general federal subsidy. It is always bad to have two masters in any undertaking, and now there are more. There is the Quebec Department of Agriculture, there is the federal Department of Labour, there is another department under another minister, looking after soldier reestablishment to a certain extent, and there are also the colonization departments of both railways. These people all meet together and while some of them have sound views, others know nothing about it- and they are the people who speak most. I have no personal grudge against the gentleman referred to, but in my humble opinion so many settlers have been put on the land under false pretences that it is time to put a stop to it. There are good lands which are abandoned. I wonder whether the policy which will be put into force will be to purchase the good lands that are abandoned or about to be abandoned and to put new settlers there. That is the first question I ask the minister. I shall have something to say afterwards.

Supply-Labour-Relief Plan


Norman McLeod Rogers: We are dealing here with existing relief settlement schemes; it is perhaps not colonization in the strict sense. As for the suggestion that abandoned lands should be purchased for the purpose of colonization, it is one which I think merits consideration. Not all the provinces have come in under the relief settlement scheme. Certain provinces have placed before the dominion government proposals respecting colonization and have requested financial assistance for carrying out such schemes. I may say that, so far as the selection of those who go on the land under these relief settlement schemes is concerned, the province shall be responsible for the administration of relief settlement, including the location and inspection of suitable farms and the selection of suitable farmers who will be physically fit, and qualified in other respects. The province shall be responsible for the disbursement of funds to the families assisted; the expense of such administration shall be paid by the province, and no part of the cost of administration and supervision shall be deducted from the maximum amount of $600 set aside for the subsistence and settlement of each family. In other words, the dominion has cooperated with the provinces and with municipalities in placing on agricultural land those families who would otherwise be on relief. Of course the hope behind it all is that those who are so placed on the land will ultimately become self-supporting. It is too soon as yet to pass a final verdict upon the success of the plan. I may say, however, that the percentage of those who are remaining on the land is encouragingly high. In the province of Quebec, for example, eighty-two per cent of those who were settled under these schemes are still on the land, and the total for the dominion is over eighty per cent.


Miss MACPHAIL:: Over how many years?


Norman McLeod Rogers: This was begun in 1932.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: It is not long enough.


Norman McLeod Rogers: No, it is not long enough.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will try to be as brief as possible in what I have to say. All that matter of cooperation and understanding is pretty hard to comprehend. I believe in one head to direct the whole thing. I have already said so to the previous Minister of Colonization in Quebec, that there should be a boss of this colonization scheme; he should be in either Ottawa or Quebec, and there should be a definite understanding about the matter. In referring to Quebec I speak at the same time of all other provinces. One boss should

be responsible for the whole thing, in order that when we speak of it in Ottawa we shall not be told that it comes from the provinces, and when it is spoken of in the provinces the people there cannot be told that it comes from Ottawa. It takes one leader to organize such a great movement.
The matter of the selection of lands has been largely overlooked. For instance, some men have been taken from cities where they were unemployed and were receiving relief, and transferred to the middle of a forest, where they are still receiving relief, and the day is not in sight when these men will be self-supporting.
When the government is submitting to the committee an item of $500,000 for this purpose, it will surely agree with me that this is done with a view that sooner or later the men who take advantage of it will be self-supporting. In Quebec-and I do not speak of the other provinces because I do not know what is going on there-only a small fraction of the settlers who have been put on the land in the last year expect to be self-supporting within a short period of time; all the others have to five on what they receive from the government, and they lean on the government. I do not blame the government for supporting them. The governments have a responsibility to these people. They told them that they were bringing them to the garden of Eden; that they were leaving those dirty cities to move into the clean country where they could breathe fresh air and could bring up their children under much better conditions than were possible in the towns. This was said everywhere; and these men and these good women and their children left the cities, where at least they were living in civilization, and were sent away into the middle of the forest, at times on lands which were absolutely unfitted for cultivation.
In my own constituency timber limits have been granted on lands which were not classified before. The lumber companies have been granted the right to cut timber in very good farming districts, although the land was not divided before into lands for cultivation and forest reserves, and therefore some farmers, having been put in forest reserves, on lands unsuitable for cultivation, after all the trees had been cut, found it impossible to get a living. They did not have sufficient timber to build their houses and barns; certainly they had not enough to trade with; they had just enough to heat their stoves. This was a great mistake. Every one who is familiar with colonization knows very well that the old-time settlers used to live for a long time

Supply-Labour-Relief Plan
on the little money they were able to make from the sale of wood. In the winter they were busy cutting trees, which they sold later on., and with the proceeds they were able to help themselves. But now things are different.
Of three main points in the organization of new farm settlements, the first is to have thoroughly suitable land, in order that the new settlers are not placed, a little like St. Simeon Stylites, on a kind of column where it is impossible for them to reach fertile soil. One must visit some of the new settlements to know the hardships these people are suffering because of bad soil. They were brought there by those great geniuses who now lead the movement and tell the people of Montreal and other cities of Quebec: Go back to the land, to the mother land which will feed you so well. Well, sir, it is time to stop. It is time to remove those who are responsible for the mistakes of the past. If what they have done hitherto is all wrong, do you expect them to do anything good in the future? The future must be judged by the past, and I speak now as a French-Canadian from Quebec, because I love these people and I do not want them to starve on the soil, when that soil is supposed not only to feed them but to help them to feed the country at large. This is the first point, and one must be very cautious about it, because at this time there are very few farmers who can say that they make both ends meet. Many farmers living on fertile lands cannot make a living; therefore how can new settlers do so when they live on rocks? They are not birds.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: They do not know how to farm.


Jean-François Pouliot: This is the first point. Let us have good lands for farms. For instance, in my constituency-I refer to it because the same thing occurs anywhere else where colonization is brought about-there is a very rich part, that which surrounds lake Temiscouata. It is an old seigneury two leagues wide on both sides of the river Madawaska and lake Temiscouata. There are some settlers there. The other lands have not been sold by the owners of that property. They are the best lands; they are easy of access, and instead of farmers' sons being given an opportunity to live there, they are required to migrate far away where they have been reduced to eating root soup and maple leaves. The maple leaf is all right as an emblem to wear in one's lapel, but not to eat as a food. That is what has occurred. Very often this matter has been brought before the people, and they ask why these farmers' sons are not settled as far
as possible on or near the old homestead, in order that the father may give good advice to his children and look after them. We are in a civilized country. Moreover I believe the rules of nature should be followed in colonization. Take the tide; only in the bay of Fundy does it come up suddenly. A normal tide comes up little by little, and colonization should be carried on in the same way. Colonization should start with the first range of a township, and only after all the lots on that range are conceded should the second range be opened. That would be much better, because the community would be much larger and the people would be grouped together for the upkeep of roads, for school purposes, for all the needs of the community, and it would be much easier to make progress under such conditions. Therefore I hope the matter of the choice of the lots will be considered very carefully. Mistakes have been made by farmers who had lots patented which they sold to lumbermen. This created a hole in the middle of the community, and after the lumber was cut off it was impossible to have anything done with that land. It was sold for municipal taxes and was of no value to anyone. These matters should be considered very carefully, and those who are responsible for the mistakes of the past should be severely punished; certainly their advice should not be asked in future.
Then, sir, there is another point which is very interesting. A selection should be made of the farmers. You cannot expect a man who has been in a machine shop all his life to go on the land and be a good farmer from the first. That is impossible. First there is the natural inclination for farming which should be considered. A man should have the disposition to settle on the land for good and not to live there just as a matter of expediency while receiving a grant from either the provincial or the federal government. The men who go on the land must have the spirit of the old pioneers; they must understand the sort of life they will have to lead and the sacrifices they will have to make before they can become as prosperous as the farmers in the older communities. When we hear from some people that this work of settlement is doing well we must not overlook the fact that those who make such statements are the people who were responsible for putting men in the wrong places. They justify their jobs by saying everything is going well. That is not the truth. Hon. members would be surprised to learn the number of people on farms, as well as fishermen, in every part of the country, who are in receipt of relief of one kind or another.
Supply-Labour-Relief Plan

There is a real procession of these men coming to the government for assistance because they are in need, and it is very sad.
In some cases politics have been played in the giving of relief, and that is a shame. I understand that it is very hard for the country to give any more in the way of relief than it is giving now, but at present the relief given is just sufficient to enable a man and his dependents to survive until better times come. Surely it is only a matter of humanity that every man who is in need, whether he is a gentile or a Jew, an old man or a young man, a Liberal or a Conservative or a C.C.F. man or a member of the social credit group, should have enough to live on, enough food for himself and his family and enough clothes. But, sir, when you go through those settlement districts you see people who are underfed; you see tall children who are like the stems of leaves, just skin and bones. They look miserable; they are miserable, because they are not fed. Infantile mortality has not decreased during the last few years because in some settlements the children of some of these settlers are not fed milk or the substitutes for milk; they are fed the sauce from pork and beans. That is almost incredible, but I have it on very good and reliable authority that this is the case. That being so I think it is time for us to see to it that the condition of these people is improved. On that soil they cannot even cultivate what is necessary for their own maintenance, and that is also almost incredible in a country such as this with so much fertile land. Those who are responsible for this situation try to keep their jobs by saying these men have been put in the right places, but that is not true. Those who make such statements should be fired right away; they should be put upon relief under the same conditions. That would -be the law of retaliation; let them earn their livelihood just as the settlers do now. They would be the very first to write letters to this minister and that throughout the country complaining about their situation.
Then there is another matter which is most important. I refer to the question of roads. Some settlers have been placed in the middle of a forest, with no roads leading to their lots, and right now there are some roads that are so badly kept that it is impossible to pass over them in a car. During the campaign last year I went to visit a parish in my constituency back in the mountains, and it was impossible to get in with a car. All the cars had to stop half way up a hill, and I had to wire the Minister of Colonization in order to have that road repaired at once. It had been in that condition for four or five years. Those [Mr. PouliotJ
people are isolated. We need good avenues of communication between these settlers and the nearest progressive centres, and it is most important that this matter should not be overlooked. I say the roads should be built before the men are settled on the land. As it is now they have to hike through the forest carrying packs of food on their backs; they have to go far away by themselves and cut the trees and live a wild life until they can bring in their families. It is a shame, sir; it is no policy at all. I do not place all the blame on the federal Department of Labour, but there is a nigger in the woodpile somewhere, and that nigger should be found and executed. What has been said now is something that everyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear can observe while travelling through these districts. The men who are willing to go there are admirable Canadian citizens; they are of the same kind and class as the first pioneers who came to this country. They deserve every consideration; they should be helped, inasmuch as they can do something for the future, and because this government or any government has a responsibility towards them.
That being said, may I ask the ministn what will be done with those who are to be settlers, or reset.tlers, next winter? I also take the opportunity to ask, although it is not under the same item but relates to the same thing, what will be done for the young men who will be employed as farm hands next fall after the work on the farm is finished?


Norman McLeod Rogers: As to the first question, what will happen to those who have come under this relief and settlement plan during the coming winter, as I pointed out previously the dominion government has entered into agreements with certain provinces by which subsistence is provided for those who have been settled on the land under these several agreements. In so far as the provinces have indicated their desire to go on with this relief settlement scheme the dominion government has signified its willingness to continue with its proportionate financial assistance towards that end.
I am bound to say that as I listened to my hon. friend I gathered the impression that he was referring not wholly to the relief settlement schemes as provided under this vote, but also to certain provincial schemes of colonization. Much that he said would be applicable to any scheme of settlement at this time. I think we all appreciate the difficulties in the way. I would like to impress on the committee however that those who are

Supply-Labour-Relief Plan
settled on the land under these agreements go voluntarily. An effort is made to select them carefully-


Abraham Albert Heaps: How are they selected?


Norman McLeod Rogers: They are selected by an advisory committee which is set up in each province. On that advisory committee you will have representatives of the province and of the city and of the two railway companies.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Are all the settlements made along the right of way of the railways?


Norman McLeod Rogers: They are made on crown lands for the most part.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Why are the railways
brought in as one of the three parties of the
tripartite agreement.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Because of their experience in colonization. It was thought that the advice they might give to the Department of Labour in carrying out these schemes would be useful, and I am bound to say our experience has been that their advice has been most helpful.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Are any practical
farmers advising the department on land settlement?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Of course as far as the
dominion Department of Labour is concerned, as I pointed out we do not . deal with the actual administration of the settlement scheme; that is done by the province.
Miss MACPH'AIL: With the selection of the farm and its location?


Norman McLeod Rogers: That is done by the province assisted by the advisory committees set \ip within the province.


Mr. TAYLOR (Nanaimo):: Do I understand from the minister that all schemes are initiated by the provincial governments?


Norman McLeod Rogers: No. I think it would be more correct to say that this relief settlement scheme was worked out cooperatively between the dominion government and the provincial governments. It was looked upon as one means of reestablishing those who were on relief and who had had previous farm experience.


James Samuel Taylor: Then in the event that any man on relief wishes to go on farm land and develop a farm for himself, to whom should he apply?


Norman McLeod Rogers: It is done through the
municipality.


James Samuel Taylor: The municipality in which he finds himself?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes.


Mr. POOLE:: I understand the advisory committees also include members of the municipal council?


Norman McLeod Rogers: You have a series of committees, first what might be termed the national advisory committee, which meets from time to time in Ottawa; then a provincial advisory committee, and then the municipal.


Eric Joseph Poole: Is the minister aware that when the scheme was brought into effect two or three years ago, even while the scheme was in operation there were farmers returning from the land to the cities because they could not make a living on the land? The feeling was that the money contributed for this purpose would be better spent if it went in some way to encourage those already on the land to make a living there, some who had as much as a quarter century experience. It is true that many of those who went on the farms returned, not having had farm experience. It is equally true that the type of land on which they settled was such that they could not make a living on it. Has the minister considered whether it would .not be better and more economical to find some means of reducing interest on the farmers' debts? It would be far more scientific than .this, would it not?


Agnes Campbell Macphail: I enjoyed the speech of the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot)-I cannot always say that but I say it in this case. I think the Minister of Labour must be aware that there are as many people being driven off the land as he can possibly be replacing on the land. It seems ridiculous that men and women who are familiar with agriculture and who love the land-and I think anyone must love the land, have a feeling for it, before he can enjoy country life or make a success of it at all-are being driven off through no fault of their own. That is happening in my constituency, and I suppose in every agricultural constituency represented in this house. All these people who are coming off the land are being piled on relief at one end while the minister is taking a few off the other end of the pile and putting them back on the land. The settlers put on the land in Ontario, I take it, have mostly been placed in northern Ontario. These people go into some new territory and try this thing that is called subsistence farming. That is a myth; there is no such thing as subsistence farming. In the days of the pioneers when they made what they wore, used tallow candles and

Su-pply-Labour-Relief Plan
grew most of what they ate, and taxes were either non-existent or very small, subsistence farming was a reality. But now it just exists in the minds of people who colonize for the railroads, ministers and experts in the departments, it does not exist in reality. It is nonsense to go on spending money trying to achieve it. I venture to say that in ten years there will be none of these people on the land. Four years is no test. It may be that it costs less than to keep them in the cities, but it is a terrible ordeal for people who have been raised in the city.


Norman McLeod Rogers: But they make their own choice.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Yes, but they are between the devil and the deep sea. They are choosing what seems to them the lesser of two evils. I have tried several times to have opportunity given to farmers' sons who cannot live at home because the farm will not support any more of them. They are trained farmers. They want to go and would even be able to pay a little to go on the land. There does not seem to be provision for that kind of person, yet we are making these collections from the cities. Just over the weekend I was talking to a man who knows a good deal about the conditions of these people in northern Ontario. He said it was appalling; that finally almost every one of the settlers placed in northern Ontario-possibly not under this scheme, but under some scheme-is coming under the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, and that if it is going to do anything to save them it will have to be stretched a great deal. I should like to know from the minister where settlements in Ontario have been made, whether or not it is in northern Ontario. Is there to be any attempt to coordinate all the activities in land settlement?


Norman McLeod Rogers: First of all may I say that the bulk of those settled in Ontario under the relief settlement scheme were established in northern Ontario, but I am by no means certain whether these were the ones described a minute ago by the hon. member. We have not now before us a statement of the actual settlements established in northern Ontario, but that information can foe obtained and I should be very pleased indeed to send it to the hon. member. May I point out that under this vote we are not embarking upon a new venture, but are simply meeting commitments under existing relief settlement agreements arranged with the provinces two years ago. They have been maintained up to the present time with the cordial cooperation of

provinces and municipalities which have had experience under them. It may be true that at this time farming does not offer very attractive prospects to those on relief. At the same time I take it we are all familiar with what is involved in the term "real wages," and there are features of life in rural communities which I am sure are far more attractive than conditions surrounding families living on relief in some of our larger cities. Then, after all, there is the matter of inclination. My hon. friend has mentioned that some people moved from city to country and others from country to city.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: I was not talking about inclination. They were being driven off the farms in the country.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I am referring to those on the relief settlement scheme. There has been no coercion. They have entered these schemes as a result of their own inclinations, and as I said some time ago all we can do to-day is to conclude from these figures that the vast majority, some eighty per cent, of those who have gone out on farms under the relief settlement scheme have remained. I agree that may not be a final verdict, but I believe I made that point clear at the beginning of the discussion.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: I am not sure what the scheme is. Would the minister please tell us how long help is given after they settle on the farms?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Help has been given to them up to the present time.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Any farmer could remain if he got help.


Norman McLeod Rogers: It is a form of relief.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: How much per year?


Norman McLeod Rogers: The figures before me show that it is $500 the first year and $100 the second year.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Each year until the
present?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes, until now. One province has made a request for assistance during the coming year as well.


Eric Joseph Poole: Does it not depend upon
the size of the family?


Agnes Campbell Macphail: I have one more question. Does the minister know anything about the feelings of the municipalities into which these people move? May I say further that if they get $500 to begin with and $100 a year afterwards that certainly is not

Supply-Labour-Reliej Plan
subsistence farming. If the government [DOT]would do as well for the people on the land who are working desperately to save their homes, if it would give $500 as an initial payment and $100 in following years, those people would be able to save their farms and would not have to go on relief. That is not subsistence farming; it is relief on the land, which is another matter altogether.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I have never suggested
that this was subsistence farming. It is relief settlement. Naturally it is our hope that these people in time may become selfsustaining, but we have not had sufficient experience as yet by any means to suggest that that would be true of even the majority of families. They are still on relief.


Eric Joseph Poole: Would the amount given
depend on the number in the family?


Norman McLeod Rogers: It is left to the provinces
to determine how much shall be assigned. As I mentioned some time ago, the dominion government makes a pro rata contribution. The main provision of the agreement is that the dominion must make a non-recoverable expenditure of one-third of an amount not to exceed $600 per family, for the purpose of providing equipment and subsistence for a two-year period.


Eric Joseph Poole: That would mean that if at the end of two years the settlers cannot succeed on the farms the relief would be cut off, and they would have to go back to the cities?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Not necessarily. Where
the provinces have brought to the attention of the dominion government the fact that those operating under the scheme are not self-supporting, and where requests have been made for further federal assistance, consideration has been given.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Who buys the land,
and who decides what land is to be bought? Who makes the payments on the land?


Norman McLeod Rogers: The land is not purchased under the settlement agreements. The selection is made by the provincial advisory committee.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Perhaps I can give a
little information in regard to this matter, if we are dealing with the same plan in operation along the North Bay-Cochrane road in northern Ontario.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I have not information
as to the localities in Ontario in which the
settlements are located, but I believe it is altogether likely that the district mentioned by the hon. member is the one in question.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Just to satisfy my own
mind in this matter, two years ago I motored up to northern Ontario and while there called on eighteen farmers. These farmers were located along the North Bay-Cochrane road, and the majority of them were not far south of Cochrane. They were located within ten to one hundred miles south of that place. I talked to the women and men, and my memory is that from the Ontario government they were to receive $200 per year for a period of three years, totalling $600. Those I visited had small gardens from one to five acres in size around their houses. I can say that every family I talked to seemed more or less pleased. I came back from northern Ontario satisfied that at least for the present they appeared to be content. My real reason for going to northern Ontario was that I had read in the newspapers an account which indicated that certain families had come back and had made complaints about the way they were treated. Perhaps there were some who acted in that way, but I did not come in contact with any of them. I am anxious to know whether the families I visited are still up there, and some time during the summer months I propose to go north again to call on the same families. The information I received was that the Ontario government selected the families and made an effort to ascertain whether they had had a training in or had some knowledge of farming. My impression was that they certainly did not send out the ordinary city man who was unfamiliar with country life.
I quite agree that it takes a lot of courage to go up into northern Ontario and start farming on these lines. One of the difficulties was that there did not seem to be any place near where they could sell what they raised. It is quite a distance to Cochrane, and a long way to the mining camps south. Of course it is different with those who are situated near Kirkland Lake, Porquois Junction, and camps like that. One or two families that I called on not far from these mines told me that they could sell to the mining camps everything they raised. The members of one family in particular, living quite alone, were very well pleased. They seemed to be the only family in that section. There happened to be a golf course nearby for officials of the mining camps, and doubtless that particular farmer made a living.
Sup-ply-Labour-Relief Plan

It struck me that one of the handicaps in that kind of settlement was the lack of contact with the outside world after the sun went down. During the daytime they could at least see a lot and they were kept occupied, but at night in the sections I visited the people did not have radios, and when I came back to Toronto I asked the department what they could do to improve conditions along that line. Of course unless an electric wire was strung along the road they could not have electric radios. They might have been able to use battery radios, but the families that went north took little furniture with them, and whether or not they had radios before I do not know. But certain of these settlers were backed up by the different communities from which they left to go north. I think that East York, for instance, and some of the municipalities around there undertook to try to make conditions better for those who went from their community. Quite a number of people in the south could perhaps spare a radio for some family in the north. Certainly any family that goes to northern Ontario should be assisted in every possible way, and if after three years they still need further assistance I should be glad to support a vote which the minister might ask for to assist until these people really get on their feet. They all had small houses and were clearing small farms, and an occasional one, but not all of them, had a cow. In one community I visited there was. only one horse for seven families. There was not such a lot to do, of course, because at the outset they had only from one to five acres cleared, and perhaps one horse could take care of seven families.
Those who have to do with this kind of settlement should keep in close touch with the settlers, because they are worthy people, and even after the three years have expired every effort should be made to keep them going. Many of them will make good. I found some of them working on the roads. They would clear what land they could, and then the Ontario government would give them work to do on the main roads. If they got paid for that, it would be of some assistance in providing income. Certainly I believe that both governments and all those connected with such settlement should make every effort to provide some kind of work by which the settlers can get a little ready money, besides having the opportunity to raise vegetables and whatever else they may require. I can say for northern Ontario that I never saw better patches of potatoes than I saw up there, and the same with other vegetables.
I was surprised at the tremendous growth, because my impression before going north 
had been that the season was so short that vegetables that grow so prolifically in southern Ontario would not mature up there, but the settlers told me that while their season * was shorter ^ the growing season was hotter, and they did not anticipate any trouble in that regard. I know what trouble the minister and the department must have in doing justice to a scheme of this land, but certainly anything that the department feels it is necessary to do to help out these settlers should be done.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I would just like to say that in Fort William several rooms in the schools had to be closed because of this movement towards the land. I know of only one family that had to come back. I could give you a picture of a home that I did not have afternoon tea in but something better, and not home brew. This family had been on relief in the city of Fort William, but they went on the land. The father was delicate. Now they would not move back because they say they have what firewood they need, and all the milk they need; they grow their own vegetables, keep their own fowl and have all the eggs they need. They get an odd job that brings them in a little cash to buy what they call luxuries. These people would not go back to the city. Of course, it depends not so much upon the man as upon the wife who goes out into these settlements, and I pay this tribute to some of them who went out and slaved and self-sacrificed in order to make good. That is the kind of spirit that made Canada great in its early days.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, April 30, 1936