TRANSLATION OF ESTIMATES

[Stage Direction]
On the order for motions:
Hon. E. N. RHODES (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Temis-oouata (Mr. Pouliot) raised the question of the estimates not being printed in French. No exception is taken to his having done so, but I thought the brief discussion which followed
Year-
1925-	1926..
1926-	1927..
1927-	1928..
1928-	1929..
1929-	1930..
1930-	1931. .
1931-	1932..
1932-	1933..
1933-	1934..
1934-	1935..
At this session the English edition was brought down on January 23, and the French edition was available on January 30. As a matter of fact, it is ready for distribution and was distributed early this morning. I make this statement merely to make it clear that no matter what may be said with respect to the propriety of the practice which has been followed, it is a practice which has been in strict conformity with the one which obtained in this house, so far as the records show, in all times past.


Mr. POULIOT:: Mr. Speaker, I am speaking to a question of privilege I do not wish the hon. member to misconstrue my statement of yesterday. I did not complain of the fact that-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Mr. SPEAKER:: That is not a question of privilege. If the hon. member would like to ask the minister a question he may do so under a later order on the order paper.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Perhaps the hon. member
did not follow my opening remarks.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes.

rather left the impression that the procedure followed this year in bringing down the estimates may have been different from that which has obtained in previous years. As a matter of fact I have made careful inquiry, and I find that the invariable practice in this house has been for the estimates to be submitted printed in English only. It then becomes the duty and responsibility of the House of Commons translation staff to provide for the translation. That is why it was that when the question was raised yesterday I was not in a position to inform hon. members as to whether the estimates were actually at that time printed in French. I have examined the records, and the following figures which I shall place on Hansard will serve to indicate the respective times at which English and French copies of the estimates have been made available :
English	French
Feb.	16,	1925	Mar.	3,	1925Mar.	15,	1926	Apr.	9,	1926Feb.	15,	1927	Feb.	21,	1927Jan.	27,	1928	Feb.	8,	1928Feb.	18.	1929	Feb.	26,	1929Feb.	27,	1930	Mar.	11,	1930Apr.	13,	1931	Apr.	20,	1931Feb.	15,	1932	Feb.	22,	1932Feb.	1,	1933	Feb.	7,	1933Jan.	26,	1934	Feb.	14,	1934


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I said I had no fault to
find with the question raised by the hon. member, but that the incident yesterday had served to call into question whether the practice which had been followed this year had been different from that of previous years. It is only to correct the possibility of a wrong impression that I have given these figures.



FARMERS' CREDITORS ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. E. N. RHODES (Minister of Finance) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 10, to amend the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, 1934.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, the bill provides
for four amendments to the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, 1934. All of them are designed with a view to improving the operation and efficiency of the act and to enable it to accomplish more fully the purposes which were in mind when the original act was passed.
The first amendment enlarges the period of a stay of proceedings from sixty to ninety days. It has been found in practice that in

Questions
certain cases official receivers have had before them for consideration as many as 250 applications, and in the nature of things they have not been able to consider them within the sixty day period.
The second amendment is quite important but, as I believe will be found with respect to the others, it is not contentious. As the act stands at present there must be a decision by the full board of review, and there is no provision made for the functioning of the board in the event of one of its members becoming incapacitated either because of illness or for any other reason. This amendment provides that in such circumstances two members of the board may appoint an ad hoc member.
A third amendment is merely to clarify what was originally the intention of the act, namely that the decision of the board of review shall be filed with the clerk of the county court or of the district court, as the case may be. There is an ambiguity in the wording of the act as it stands at present which might make possible the argument that it would be competent for a county court judge to sit in judgment by way of appeal upon a decision of the board of review. This amendment makes it clear that it is intended merely that the decision of the board of review shall be filed for purposes of record with the county court.
The fourth amendment is designed more particularly for the province of Ontario, although by its terms it is applicable to the whole of Canada. It enables the chairman of the board in certain cases to delegate a member of the board to make inquiries in far flung areas and to gather together certain data and
3.	Quantities of domestic eggs, butter and countries, calendar years 1931, 1932, 1933 and
Classification
Eggs-
To United Kingdom	
United States	
Alaska	
Bermuda	
British West Indies-
Jamaica	
Trinidad and Tobago	
Other British West Indies	
Germany	
Netherlands	
Hong Kong	
N ewfoundland	
New Zealand	
St. Pierre and Miquelon	
statistics for the benefit of the board, placing upon him the duty to report back to the board.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. REID:: 1.	What quantities of 'butter and cheese were imported into Canada during 1931, 1932, 1933, 1934, calendar years?
2.	What quantities of eggs, butter, and cheese, were exported from Canada during 1931, 1932, 1933, 1934, calendar years?
3.	To what countries did these various exports go during said years?


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: 1.	Quantities of butter and cheese imported into Canada, calendar years 1931, 1932, 1933 and 1934, were:
Calendar	Butter	Cheeseyears	Pounds	Pounds1931..	2,821,317	1,446,1471932..	238,145	1,166,5061933..	1,377,137	967,6131934..	2,861,295	874,3932. Quantities of eggs, butter and	cheese exported from Canada, calendar years 1931, 1932, 1933 and 1934, were:	Calendar	Eggs	Butter	Cheeseyears	Dozen	Cwt	Cwt.1931.. .	. .. 634,140	106,805	847,8841932.. .	. .. 272,818	35,057	869,3991933.. .	. .. 1,987,612	44,372	741,6861934.. .	. .. 2,001.024	4,283	611,678cheese, exported from Canada to 1934, were:	various1931	1932	1933	1934Doz.	Doz.	Doz.	Doz.431,070	24,720 1,750,075	1,833,4101,494	7,031	3,717	410150	510	90	4,68017,847	57,824	97,460	45,780896	816	1,080	9,330210	7,560	7,890	10,6201,350	1,410	750	6,300	1,410	158,862	154,868	104,330	87,6707,500	14,701	18,139	14,510	9,124
Questions

Classification	1931	1932	1933	1934Butter-	Cwt.	Cwt.	Cwt.	Cwt.To United Kingdom	. .. 86,569	21,380	37,185	4United States	. .. 6,278	805	23	66Alaska	. .. 1	1	1	22American Virgin Islands	. .. 20	64	29	6Belgian Congo	1Bermuda	. .. 2,390	1,447	1,107	21British Guiana	... 333	178	308	17British Honduras	. .. 257	348	200	208British Straits Settlements	
British West Indies-	13	Barbados	... 234	115	69	11Jamaica	. .. 1,597	486	132	22Trinidad and Tobago	. .. 1,050	882	112	260Other British West Indies	. .. 1,578	1,898	950	497China	. .. 3	12	1	1Colombia	43	1	Costa Rica	. .. 65	20	2	Cuba	. .. 3	....Hayti	. .. 11	414	30	Hong Kong	... 234	400	672	476Japan	... 402	282	4	Newfoundland	. .. 3,877	4,595	2,627	1,783Panama	... 605	12	Peru	94	23	6Philippines	. .. 140	30	1	Puerto Rico	23	San Domingo	. .. 55	113	13	11St. Pierre and Miquelon	
Cheese-	. .. 1,103	1,415	869	871To United Kingdom	. .. 805,655	838,139	707,076	580,766United States	. .. 15,802	6,101	10,584	7,992Alaska	2	4Argentina	. .. 87	6	6	Belgium	. .. 2,584	3,677	5,342	2,627Bermuda	. .. 1,965	2,072	1,524	1,815British Guiana	... 523	404	810	862British Honduras	... 228	615	631	737British South Africa	139	British Straits Settlements	
British West Indies-	4	Barbados	... 646	689	789	922Jamaica	. .. 3,872	3,626	3,843	4,715Trinidad and Tobago	. .. 2,785	2,523	3,075	3,837Other British West Indies	. .. 941	1,036	1,037	1,207China	. .. 135	135	154	343Costa Rica	. .. 5	4	Cuba	. .. 21	15	10	15Dutch West Indies	. .. 16	1	Egypt	. .. 197	25	22	27France	. .. 532	464	648	321French Africa	9	French West Indies	. .. 1	3Germany	. .. 262	39	36	38Gibraltar	. .. 1	Hong Kong	... 274	118	42	24Italy	. .. 36	17Irish Free State	. .. 6,534	5,083	] ,340	Japan	... 588	641	465	681Malta	. .. 1	2	224	134Nicaragua	
[Mr. Hanson.l	n	
Questions
Classification
Newfoundland	
Norway	
Palestine	
Panama	
Roumania	
Spain	
St. Pierre and Miquelon


ST. JUSTE DU LAC, QUE., WHARF
Mr POULIOT:: 1.	Was some sawn lumber hauled from a mill to the wharf at St. Juste du Lac at public expense?
2.	If so, what quantity, by whom, and what amount was paid by the government for that purpose ?


Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) 5,412 feet BM.
(b) and (c)
Sylvio Dufour	 $ 3 60
Philippe Michaud	
3	60Hermenegilde Dube	
3	00Joseph Dube-fils	
10	80J.	B. Courberon	
8	18


Mr. BENNETT:: Perhaps the hon. member would indicate what years are to be covered. He does not indicate the year.



MARKETING ACT

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: 1.	How many provincial boards are now functioning in the province of British Columbia under the Natural Products Marketing Act?
2.	How many local boards are functioning in the same province for the same purpose?
3.	What are the names of members of such boards respectively?
4.	Has a dominion board been formed to collaborate with such provincial or local boards?
5.	If so, what is the personnel of such dominion board?


Mr. WEIR (Melfort):: 1.	None.
2.	Four-each for a different purpose.
3 British Columbia Tree Fruit Board:
Walter E. Haskins.
Orris W. Hembling.
George A. Barrat.
Fruit Export Board of Canada:
Orris W. Hembling.
Manning Ells.
Vernon B. Leonard.
Percy W. Hodgetts.
Leslie F Burrows.
1931	1932	1933	1934Cwt.	Cwt.	Cwt.	Cwt.4,009	3,817	3,585	4,2325	4	183	
227
92	27	15	914	13	6	873	113	93	115
British Columbia Salt Fish Board:
Hugh Dalton.
K.	Kimura.
T. Matsuyama.
S. K. Murray.
R. Nelson.
British Columbia Lower Mainland Dairy Products Board:
Hugh Davidson.
Wm. Thomas McArthur.
Wm. J. Park.
4 and 5. No. A local board has been created under a scheme submitted to the Dominion Marketing Board under " The Natural Products Marketing Act, 1934," viz: British Columbia Lower Mainland Dairy Products Board.



BUTTER AND CHEESE PRODUCTION

Mr. DUBOIS:: 1.	What was the total production of butter and cheese in each of the provinces of Canada during the year 1933?
2.	What was the total production of butter aud cheese in each of the provinces of Canada during the year 1934?


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: 1. Total production of butter and cheese in
Canada (factory	and home-made)	by provinces for 1933:	Total	Total
	butter	cheese
	(pounds)	
P.E.I	.. 4,034,988	563,676Nova Scotia.. ..	.. 12,089,615	40,000New Brunswick..	.. 10,335,673	319,994Quebec	. .. 77,791,688	25,771,945Ontario	.. 108,286,463	81,392,644Manitoba	, .. 28,782,688	777,864Saskatchewan. ..	.. 40,818,542	898,071Alberta	. .. 36.352,350	1,687,387British Columbia,	. .. 7,225,539	638,212Total	. .. 325,717,546	112,089,793
2. Preliminary estimate of creamery butter production by provinces for 1934:
Creamery
butter
(pounds)
Prince Edward Island	 1,814,091
Nova Scotia	 5,513,404
Questions

New Brunswick	 3,167,952
Quebec	 68,775,000
Ontario	 79,107,303
Manitoba	 20,674,148
Saskatchewan	 20,878,352
Alberta	 25,594,000
British Columbia	 5,924,452
Total	 231,448,702
Data on cheese production and total butter production for 1934 are not yet available. Butter made on Canadian farms in 1934 will amount to at least 100,000,000 pounds.
LEAGUE OF NATIONS-ADMISSION OF RUSSIA*


Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Bid the Canadian delegation sign, on or about September 15, 1934, an invitation to the U.S.S.R. to join "and bring its valuable collaboration to" the council of the league of nations?
2.	If so, who signed this invitation on behalf of the Canadian delegation?
3.	Bid the assembly, on or about September 17, 1934, refer to the sixth committee the question of admitting the U.S.S.R.?
4.	If so, did' a Canadian delegate declare before that committee that he would not object, in the public interest, to the admission of the
U.S.S.R.?
5.	If so, why?
6.	Bid the Canadian delegation officially meet, in Geneva in September, 1934, Mr. Maxim Litvinoff, People's Commissary for Foreign Affairs of the U.S.S.R.?
7.	If so, did the Canadian delegation make any agreements with the Russian delegation, and, if it did, what are these agreements, particularly with regard to exportation of wheat and lumber to Great Britain?
In view of what was said yesterday by the Prime Minister I shall amend the question by striking out paragraphs 3, 4 and 5. The information asked for in the two first and the two last paragraphs is not mentioned in either the report of the Canadian delegates to the Assembly of the League of Nations or the monthly summary of the League of Nations for September, 1934. This is most important, and I should be very thankful if the government would answer it.
Mr. BENNETT The answer to questions 6 and 7 is no, in both cases. The answers to the other questions are indicated in the report of the League of Nations, as I have indicated, at pages 6 and 21. It was tabled the other day.



PRODUCTION OF CANNED TOMATOES

Mr. WEESE:: 1.	What was the total number of cases of canned tomatoes on hand in Canada as of December 31, 1934?
2.	How many cases of tomatoes were packed in each province during the year 1934?
3.	How many home canning plants are there in each province?
4.	How many cases of tomatoes were packed by home canning plants in each province during the year 1934?
5.	How many canning factories are there in each of the provinces of Canada?
6.	How many canning factories in each province operated and packed tomatoes during the year 1934?


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: 1.	2,023,252 cases*
2.	Ontario	
1,075,935	cases*Quebec	
553,636	cases*British Columbia. ..	365,398	cases*3.	Quebec, 1,400 reported to provincial government; Ontario, 217 reported to Dominion Bureau of Statistics.4.	Ontario, 83,075 cases. For Quebec, information collected by provincial government
not available for 1934.
5.	In operation 1933-
Prince Edward Island	 2
Nova Scotia	 9
New Brunswick	 5
Quebec	 40
Ontario	 78
Manitoba	 -
Saskatchewan	 -
Alberta	 1
British Columbia	 22
Canada	 157
6.	Quebec	 28*
Ontario	 62*
British Columbia	 11*
* Preliminary figures only. Subject to revision.



CANADA-UNITED STATES TRADE

Mr. MICHAUD:: What was the value of Canada's exports to and imports from the United States during the years 1928, 1929, 1930, 1931, 1932, 1933, and 1934?
	JANUARY 30, 1935		Questions	317


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: The value of Canada's imports from and exports to the United States, calendar years				
1928 to 1934, was:				
			Exports to:	
Calendar	Imports	Canadian	Foreignyears	from	produce	produce1928	$825,651,549	$491,966,297	$21,158,6611929	893,585,482	522,677,767	22,652,1751930	653,676,496	395,728,375	16,487,8581931	393,775,289	256,942,045	9,603,7721932	263,549.346	162.630,779	6,316,7261933	217,291,498	170.541.810	4,712,1241934	293,780,327	222,544,093	5,449,986CANADA-GREAT	BRITAIN TRADE	2. What was	the value of Canada's exports	to and imports from Australia during the years


Joseph Enoil Michaud: 1928, 1929. 1930,	1931, 1932, 1933, and 1934?	
1. What was the value of Canada's exports	3. What was	the value of Canada's exports	to and imports from	Great Britain during	to and imports	from New Zealand during the	each of the years 1928,	1929, 1930, 1931, 1932,	years 1928, 1929, 1930, 1931,	1932, 1933, ana1933, and 1934?	1934?


Richard Burpee Hanson: 1. The value of Canada's imports from and		exports to the	United Kingdom, calendar	
vears 1928 to 1934, was:				
			Exports to:	
Calendar	Imports	Canadian	Foreignyears	from	produce	produce192S	$190,756,730	$446,149,163	$1,738,8721929	194,777,650	290,296,803	1,534,6681930	162,632,466	235,213,959	1.313,0581931	109.468,081	171.534,822	1,062,7201932	93,508,143	178,171,680	922,9471933	97,878,232	210.697,904	616.7061934	113,418,369	270,333,857	877,7982. The value of	Canada's imports from	and exports to	Australia, calendar years 1928	to 1934, was:	Exports to:	Calendar	Imports	Canadian	Foreignyears	from	produce	produce1928	$3,922,265	S16,273,158	$11,4361929	3,519,123	19,124.626	10,5911930	4.740,934	9,173,808	7,8751931	6,259,919	4.765,381	2,5301932	5,845.187	7,133,007	2,3511933	5.079.778	10.208,286	10,8341934	6,374,087	16,870,370	15,7513. The value of Canada's imports from and	exports to New	Zealand, calendar years 1928	to 1934, was:	Exports to:	Calendar	Imports	Canadian	Foreignyears	from	produce	produce1928 	$ 9,461.639	$15,001,223	$10,3271929	14.987,302	20,405,831	18,8791930 	14,675.920	15.008,985	21,0861931	1,508.822	4,573,319	8,3571932	855,723	3,405,667	3,0711933	2.013,392	3,832,688	4,8831934	2,892,868	6 820,707	4,292
Questions

farmers' creditors arrangement act


Mr. REID:: 1* How many officials have been appointed in British Columbia under the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act?
2.	What is the remuneration granted' or allowed each of these officials?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: 1 and 2. Thirteen official receivers at $150 a month; a board of review consisting of a chief commissioner without remuneration, two members at $25 a day while engaged on their duties, and one registrar at S100 a month.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: 1 and 2:
Fiscal year
Ended March 31, 1931....
Ended March 31, 1932....
Ended March 31, 1933....
Ended March 31, 1934....



FARM LOAN BOARD


Mr. GERSHAW:: 1.	How many applications for loans under the Farm Loan Board were received from the farmers of Alberta in the years 1931, 1932, 1933, and 1934?
2.	How many were granted during each of the said years?
3.	What areas of the province are excluded from the operation of the Farm Loan Board?
4.	If operations are not extended to certain districts, on what information or advice are such districts excluded?
Number of applications Number of loans received	granted
883	598
933	234
206	80
78	47
3.	None. The policy of the board is to deal with applications on the basis of the productive value of the security offered and the qualifications of the applicant.
4.	See answer to Question 3.



&quot;CANADIAN CAVALCADE&quot; ADVERTISEMENT

Mr. NEILL:: 1.	In how many newspapers in British Columbia did the advertisement headed "Canadian Cavalcade" appear in 1935?
2.	What are the names of such newspapers, where are they printed and what is their circulation?
3.	In how many issues of each paper did the said advertisement appear?
4.	What was the cost in each case?


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: 1.	Thirteen.
2 and 4. See statement attached.
3.	One.
Place
British Columbia-
Nanaimo	
Nanaimo	
Nelson	
New Westminster.. .
Prince Rupert	
Prince Rupert	
Trail	
Vancouver	
Vancouver	
Vancouver	
Victoria	
Victoria	
Vancouver	
Total
Paper	Circulation	Cost	Herald	$41	16Free Press	.. 2,538	40	18News	58	80Columbian	78	40Empire	40	50News	57	96Times	.. 1,500	50	23Province	- .	.. 77,997	329	28Sun	323	40News-Herald	.. 16,513	127	40Colonist	140	14Times	.. 10,137	117	60B.C. Financial Times..	.. 2,250	40	00



JOHN A. MORRISON

Mr. MacLEAN:: 1. Was John A. Morrison, of Launching, King's county, Prince Edward Island, root and vegetable inspector, dismissed in 1931 from the Department of Agriculture?
I Mr. Hannon, i
2.	If so, on whose recommendation was Mr. Morrison dismissed?
3.	On what ground was his dismissal recommended and secured?
4.	What complaints, if any, were received against Mr. Morrison during his term of office, and from whom?

Questions


Mr. WEIR (Melfort):: 1.	Yes.
2.	The fruit commissioner.
3.	Unsatisfactory service.
4.	The supervising inspector reported that various shippers had complained of considerable confusion and inconvenience through Mr. Morrison's incompetence, which was confirmed on investigation.



BORDEN, P.E.I.-HIGHWAY

Mr. MacLEAN:: 1.	Under what department of the federal government was the concrete highway built at Borden, Prince Edward Island, from the ferry terminals up to the main highway, a distance of about one mile?
2.	What -was the entire cost of this concrete highway ?
3.	Did the federal government or the railway department bear the full cost of same?
4.	If they did not bear the full cost, what proportion of the cost was paid by the provincial government of Prince Edward Island, and what proportion by the federal government or its railway or other departments?.
5.	What was the total cost of the asphalt surface placed on the main highway from Carleton corner running north, and (a) what is the mileage; (b) the cost per mile?
6.	What proportion of the cost was paid' by the federal government, and what proportion by the local government?
7.	With respect to the asphalt road built from Charlottetown, how many miles have been finished, at what cost per mile, and what is the distribution of cost as between the federal and provincial governments?


Mr. GORDON:: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. An agreement respecting relief measures entered into, under The Relief Act, 1934, between the Honourable the Minister of Labour, on behalf of the dominion, and the Honourable the Premier of Prince Edward Island, on behalf of the province, provides inter alia:-
"The dominion will contribute to the province towards cost of construction of trans-Canada highway between the port of Borden and the capital city of Charlottetown, 50 per cent of the cost of such construction exclusive of the cost of administration, it being understood that the total cost to which the dominion will contribute shall not exceed $11,000 per mile and it being further understood that not more than eight miles of such highway shall be undertaken during the currency of this agreement."
"The dominion will contribute to the prov-vince, an amount not in excess of S50.000 towards the cost of construction of a highway
joining the main highway with the ferry terminal at the town of Borden, extending from Seven Mile Bay road (main highway) to and through the town of Borden to the northern limits of the Canadian National Railway property."
No accounts have at this date been received from the province with respect to the above undertakings.



AFGHANISTAN-LEAGUE OF NATIONS

Jean-François Pouliot: As Afghanistan is now a member of the League of Nations, has Canada in its capacity as a member of the league assumed by that fact certain obligations relative to the defence and the integrity of the territory of Afghanistan, and are those obligations reciprocal?


Richard Bedford Bennett: The report of the delegates to the League of Nations fifteenth assembly indicates that Afghanistan joined the League of Nations during the sessions; and as to the obligations of Canada in that regard, they are the same as other countries have in connection with membership in the league, subject to the practice that has grown up under the proceedings of the assembly and the council.



NEW BRUNSWICK-NATIONAL PARK

Mr. MICHAUD:: 1.	Will the government build a national park in the province of New Brunswick during the year 1935?
2.	If so, where will such park be located?
3.	What amount will the government expend on such project?


Richard Bedford Bennett: That question is an improper one, I submit Mr. Speaker. The government's policy cannot be ascertained with respect to matters of that kind nor can it be anticipated by inquiries of the character contained in this question.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Dropped.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Thomas Reid: How many names were registered in the various constituencies of British Columbia at the last enumeration?


Mr. CAHAN:: Return tabled herewith.
Questions as Orders for Returns


ARICHAT N.S., PUBLIC BUILDING
Mr. DUFF:: 1.	Were tenders called in October, 1934, for painting and repairs to the public building at Ariehat, Nova Scotia?
2.	If so, what were the names of the tenderers and the amounts of the tenders?
3.	Which, if any, tender was accepted?
4.	Whether tenders were called to install plumbing and water supply in the public building at Ariehat in November, 1934?
5.	If so, the names of the tenderers and the amounts of the tenders?
6.	Which, if any, tender was accepted?


DOMINION PAYMENTS TO PROVINCES
Mr. LAURIN:: What amount did the dominion treasury contribute in 1930. 1931, 1932, 1933, and 1934, to each of the provinces for the following purposes: (a) provincial subsidies; (b) technical education; (c) employment bureau; (d) unemployment relief; (e) return to the land; (f) old age pensions?


NORTH BATTLEFORD, SASK.-POST OFFICE BUILDING
Mr. McINTOSH:: 1.	What was the amount expended in repairs to the post office building at North Battleford, Saskatchewan, during the years 1931, 1932, 1933, and 1934?
2.	Were sealed tenders called for the work?
3.	If so, who were the tenderers and what was the exact amount of each tender?
4. If tenders were called for more than one class of work, who were the tenderers, and what was the exact amount of each tender?
5.	If work was not done under tender and contract, who was the foreman in charge of the work?


NORTH BATTLEFORD, SASK.-ARMOURIES
Mr. McINTOSH:: 1.	What was the amount expended by the government for repairs to the armouries at North Battleford, Saskatchewan, during the years 1931, 1932, 1933. and 1934?
2.	Were sealed tenders called for the work?
3.	If so, who were the tenderers and what was the exact amount of each tender?
4.	If tenders were called for more than one class of work, who were the tenderers, and what was the exact amount of each tender?
5.	If work was not done under tender and contract, who was the foreman in charge of the work?


NORTH BATTLEFORD, SASK.-R.C.M.P. BUILDING
Mr. McINTOSH:: 1.	What was the amount expended by the government for repairs to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police building at North Battleford, Saskatchewan, during the years 1931, 1932, 1933, and 1934?
2.	Were sealed' tenders called for the work?
3.	If so, who were the tenderers and what was the exact amount of each tender?

4.	If tenders were called for more than one class of work, who were the tenderers, and what was the exact amount of each tender?
5.	If the work was not done under tender and contract, who was the foreman in charge of the work?


UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF IN CANADA
Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: 1.	What is the total number on relief in Canada at the present time?
2.	What is the number in each province?
3.	What is the total number in national defence camps for single homeless men?
4.	What is the number in each province?
5.	What is the total number of heads of families on relief in Canada?


IMPORTS FROM RUSSIA
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Is there a limit regarding the importation without licence of Russian goods into Canada?
2.	If so, when, by whom, how and at whose request was that time fixed?


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
[Stage Direction]
Hon. IAN MACKENZIE (Vancouver
Centre): moved:
For a copy of all applications for appointments in the Bank of Canada, and a return showing all appointments made, with names of appointees, salaries paid and previous occupations in each case.
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Mr. Speaker, the motion as it stands in its present form is not acceptable. It would call for a return very voluminous in character, although, of course, to that itself there is no objection; but I can see no good reason in the public interest why a person who has applied for a position in a given service should have his name published abroad if he is not appointed. It seems to me that the responsibility of the government has to do with those appointments with respect to which it has taken action, and in those instances of course the fullest information should be disclosed. I am speaking now with respect to those appointments which are within the purview of its authority.
So far as the appointments to the staff of the bank itself are concerned they are not government appointments in any sense. They are made by the management of the bank and I have no hesitation in saying with respect to many hundreds of applications that came to me they are not a matter of record with me at all. All I did with respect to those was to pass them on to the management of the

Motions for Papers
bank for such action as they in their judgment thought wise to take, and so they are not a matter of record at all.
It seems to me that the motion might properly be amended to ask only for that information which is within the possession of the government and with respect to those appointments for which the government is responsible. If the motion was amended to read something like this-for a return showing all appointments made by the government to the Bank of Canada, with the names of such appointees, the salaries paid, and the previous occupation in each case-there would be no objection.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate very much the remarks of the Minister of Finance, but I regret very much I cannot accept his suggestion to amend my motion, for this reason. Last year when the Bank of Canada bill was before this house and also in the banking and commerce committee there was emphasized at every stage by those of us on this side of the house the necessity in the one case of ownership, and secondly the necessity of control by this parliament over the bank. My question raises distinctly and directly the question of control by this parliament, and I submit that this house is entitled not only to know the appointments made directly by the minister or by the government but also to receive the fullest information in regard to all appointments made by the directors of the bank or by the oificials of the bank before the directors were appointed the other day. I think there is at least some element of control which should be maintained by hon. members on the floor of this house, and while I appreciate the courtesy of the minister in notifying me of his objection I must insist on my objection to any amendment such as the minister suggests.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Speaker, the motion is not a debatable one and I do not think that the hon. member upon consideration will think that any government could accept it. It would require a very large staff working I should think continuously for months to satisfy the request now made. For some strange reason, as soon as the Bank of Canada was incorporated, various people throughout Canada wrote letters seeking employment in the bank. I received hundreds of such letters. It would be a very difficult task to get them all together. The Minister of Finance I happen to know received not only hundreds, but thousands of such letters. I think the total number he received was two thousand or thereabouts.
I have spoken to my colleagues and I find that they are in exactly the same position as myself, of having received hundreds of such applications. I am also informed that members received them and sent them in to the various ministers. In every instance no action was taken except to indicate that action would have to be taken, when the bank began to function, by those responsible for its operations.
With respect to the others, what the minister has said is all that could reasonably be expected, that is, as to actual appointments made, and the salaries paid. The government will have to oppose the motion as it now stands. It is not in the public interest and would serve no useful purpose to keep a number of people engaged for months copying letters sent in from various parts of the country to various ministers for the purpose of seeking a position in the bank.
Motion negatived, on division.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: May I ask the Minister of Finance now, arising out of the decision of the house, if he will submit the information that he was kind enough to mention could be supplied?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Mr. Speaker, I shall be very happy indeed to comply with the request of my hon. friend.


UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF-MONTREAL
Joseph-Georges-Philippe Laurin: For a copy of all telegrams, correspondence, letters and other documents, passing between the federal government and the Quebec government and the municipal administration of the city of Montreal, since March 31, 1934, respecting unemployment relief grants in the city of Montreal.


Mr. RINFRET:: I would ask the hon. gentleman who is moving this motion if he would object to amending it to read "since March 31, 1932," instead of 1934? Otherwise I shall have to move for another address myself. I think the easier way would be to amend this one, changing the date to 1932 instead of 1934, if my hon. friend has no objection.


Joseph-Georges-Philippe Laurin: I have no objection, Mr. Speaker, to amending the motion accordingly.
Motion as amended agreed to.


MISCOU ISLAND-NEW BRUNSWICK FERRY SERVICE
Mr. VENIOT:: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the Minister of Trade and Commerce or any other member of the government,

Motions jor Papers

relating to a subsidy for the ferry service between Miscou Island, Lameque and Shippegan, Gloucester county, New Brunswick, since 1933.


VAUTRIN LAND SETTLEMENT PLAN
Joseph-Georges-Philippe Laurin: For a copy of all telegrams, correspondence, letters and other documents, passing between the federal government and the Quebec government, since March 31, 1934, respecting the return to the land and the land settlement plan, called the Vautrin plan.



MARKETING ACT

Joseph-Georges-Philippe Laurin: For a copy of all telegrams, correspondence, letters and other documents, passing between the federal government and the Quebec government, and any other person in the city of Quebec, since March 31, 1934, respecting the application of the Natural Products Marketing Act.



CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT

Joseph-Georges-Philippe Laurin: For a copy of all telegrams, correspondence, letters and other documents, passing between the federal government and the Quebec government, since March 31, 1934, respecting the Farm Loan Act.



MAGDALEN ISLANDS POSTAL SERVICE

Mr. BRASSET:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, correspondence and other documents, passing between the Post Office Department and any person or persons, respecting the air service of the Magdalen islands during the years 1932, 1933, 1934, and 1935.



SASKATCHEWAN ELECTORAL LISTS

Mr. McINTOSH:: For a return showing the number of names contained in the electoral lists of each of the twenty-one constituencies in the province of Saskatchewan as a consequence of the general registration recently held under the provisions of the Dominion Franchise Act, assented to July 3, 1934, and the required proclamation thereunder issued by the Dominion Franchise Commissioner, September 19, 1934.



SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC RESEARCH


Mr. ALFRED SPEAKMAN (Red Deer) moved:: Whereas, in adopting the resolution moved in this house, which stated as its objective the
creation of a national council of social and economic research, this parliament has accepted the principle of the organized application of scientific methods in the consideration of economic problems,
And whereas, the conditions which prevail in this dominion and throughout the world, with the growing burden of debt, the general stagnation of business and the anomaly of wide spread poverty and privation in the midst of an abundance hitherto unknown, would point to the inevitable conclusion that the consideration which has been given to the adoption of those scientific principles should now be implemented by definite action.
Therefore be it resolved, that, in the opinion of this house, the time has arrived, and is long overdue, when a degree of well considered and scientific planning, on a national scale, should be substituted for the present practice of uncontrolled competition and unguided individual effort, in the conduct of the economic life of Canada.
He said: In moving this resolution at this time it is not my purpose to debate the question at any length. In the first place the resolution is largely self-explanatory and, I think, within itself, contains both the purpose and the reason of that purpose; and in the second place the purpose for which this resolution was placed on the order paper has already in part been served and is in the process of accomplishment.
It will be remembered by hon. members that on May 4, in the session of 1931, I moved a resolution asking for the creation of a national council which I suggested might be called the National Council of Social and Economic Research, and indicated as the objective of that motion and the purpose of that council the assistance which might be given such a body in planning the economic life of this nation, so that instead of the chaotic conditions which we then found and still find we might substitute a degree of order and correlation.
At that time the government did not accept the motion and it was rejected. I moved the same motion in identical terms in the session of 1932, and at that time it met with a more sympathetic reception and was accepted by the government, conditionally, and by the house, the condition being that this should not be immediately set up but that sympathetic consideration should be given to the idea and to the purpose, with the possibility and prospect of future action. I waited then for two years, and last session there stood upon the order paper in my name a resolu-

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tion couched in the same terms as that which I am moving to-day. Owing to sickness I was absent from the house at the time the matter came up so that the resolution was not proceeded with and it was dropped. I again placed it on the order paper for this session, and I may say at once that it was put on the order paper prior to the public announcements made by the Prime Minister (Mr. Bennett) and prior to the statement made over the radio and embodied in the speech from the tlirone that such a council was in the government program for this session and would be created.
I feel however, and it has been suggested to me, that it might be well to place this resolution squarely before the house with the issue involved, not the issue of the creation of an economic council, but the issue as between well considered national planning on the one hand and uncontrolled private initiative and competition on the other.
I believe this is a question which is agitating the minds of the public at the present time and I think it is a matter in which this parliament should give the lead. I feel therefore that I should be derelict in my duty if I allowed this matter to drop without giving parliament an opportunity of making a pronouncement upon what I conceive to be a most important principle and one having a direct bearing not only upon the situation in the country but upon the program which has been presented for our consideration during this session.
In discussing such a matter I think we must accept certain principles as being involved and inevitably involved in this resolution, and the first is this: the right of the state-and when I use the term "state" I am using it in its widest sense-to indicate the rights of the men, women and children within the confines of Canada who constitute the state, its right to lay down the general rules, to enforce the general principles and regulations under which private business, private industry and individuals shall operate; that the activities of individuals, private business and groups of citizens must in the final analysis be subordinated to the best good and to the real interest of the state itself; and1 that not only has the state that right but that right carries with it the definite power and responsibility of controlling to the degree necessary the activities of its individual citizens, of en-02582-214
couraging those activities which are beneficial in their application to the state, beneficial to society as a whole, to the men, women and children who live within this country to the state, and of discouraging and either controlling by regulation or prohibiting by law those activities which, while possibly profitable to the individual, are antisocial in their effects so far as the general weal of the state is concerned. I believe that is a principle which should be accepted by the house. It is one which, if applied wisely and intelligently, would assist us in dealing with the problems which beset this country and in bringing to a happy conclusion the troubles which beset the state.
I shall not suggest the personnel or the definite functioning of this body. I can only say this, that I welcome with gratification the announcement by the government that such a body will be created. It has been suggested during the course of various discussions that the government in its program has, to use the term already employed in this house, stolen the thunder or stolen the platform of other bodies. May I say this at once, speaking for myself and I think for my immediate associates, that we do not look upon the matter in that light. We view with pleasure, we receive with gratification the announcement that policies in which we have believed, ideas which we have enunciated, have been accepted by that body which alone is competent to put those policies into effect. We feel that our objective has largely been accomplished when that has been done and that success has crowned our efforts. It matters not to me whether this is done and those ideas accepted by the government now in power or by any other government so long as they are accepted by that body which is competent to give effect to those opinions and principles.
It is unnecessary for me to outline to the house or to the country the conditions which make such a course of planning necessary. The effects of not only the last four or five years but of preceding years which led inevitably to the conditions which we now find, prove beyond a doubt and far more definitely than any words of mine can do our need of some controlling authority and some intelligent guidance. It is not suggested that it would be necessary in following such a course to shackle, confine and regiment the individual initiative of the people of this country; but

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it is suggested that all of those various activities which together make up the business and economic life of the state, should not be considered as individual units functioning only for themselves independent and thoughtless of all other interests, but should be looked upon in their true light, that of units within a body which is composed of all those units and their effectiveness should be judged not by the peculiar profits made within that particular line of activity but by the manner in which they may be coordinated and correlated with all other activities to produce a state within which the people of the country shall have an opportunity of enjoying to the fullest extent possible the productive capacity of that country; that they shall be servants and not masters of the community in which they reside.
It has been suggested and suggested more than once that if central planning of any kind were carried into effect it would destroy not only the initiative but the intelligent guidance given by those individual citizens. In answer to that suggestion I need only call to the attention of the house that that unguided effort, admirable though its motives may have been, admirable in many cases through the efficiency of those engaged in that unguided effort may have been, has resulted not in the good which was anticipated but in a degree of chaos, disorder and dissatisfaction which no one would desire to see within a country so endowed by nature as is Canada.
I shall not' presume to suggest to the government the form of that council; nor in suggesting that such a body may be of great assistance am I in any way detracting from the ability, sincerity or desire to be of service attributable to every government, not only as at present composed but to any government which may succeed it; but I am suggesting that in the very nature of things it is impossible for any prime minister or any executive cabinet, involved, immersed as they are from day to day in their tasks and meeting as they must do, demands upon their time and energy, to devote that thought, that intensive study to the correlation of the various activities within this country which in my opinion is essential. Further-and I think I may suggest this without offense-no matter how a government may be constituted, under what party or under what name, no government will claim that within its own executive ranks will be found all the brains, intelligence and talent of the country itself. I think it will be admitted by everyone that valuable aid may be given, valuable service rendered
[Mr. Speakroan.l
if to the assistance of that government, whatever it may be, may be called the best brains within the country and outside the government to advise and assist it in its great task.
As I stated, the resolution is self-explanatory. The principle involved is clear and distinct and if I may conclude by repeating my first observation, it is the definite assertion of the principle of the right of the state to lay down to all its citizens the rules, orders, regulations under which they shall function in the best interests of the state as opposed to the philosophy of thought that believes that out of uncontrolled private initiative, out of uncontrolled competition, out of the turmoil and chaos thus created, will eventually emerge in some miraculous manner the perfect state and the greatest happiness to the greatest number.


Mr. J. R. MacNICOL (Toronto Northwest) :: Mr. Speaker, when the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman) introduced his motion in 1932 for the appointment of an economic council I had the pleasure of supporting it. And to-day I have the pleasure of supporting in a general way the resolution proposed by the hon. member. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who said that "if we could first know where we are and whither we are tending we could better judge what to do and how to do it." Those words, used by the great emancipator seventy-five or eighty years ago, are just as applicable to-day. I received yesterday from Washington a report of a committee on economic security, appointed by the president of the United States to report to him. In this report I see on the first page a paragraph that I believe is worth quoting. The letter of transmittal is signed by the present Secretary of Labour, Miss Frances Perkins. It begins:
Dear Mr. President:
In your message of June 8, 1934 to the congress you directed attention to certain fundamental objectives in the great task of reconstruction; an indistinguishable and essential aspect of the immediate task of recovery.
And it goes on to say that:
Among our objectives I place the security of the men, women, and children of the nation first.
To my way of thinking any plan for this country's planned welfare must put the security of men, women and children first. To continue:
This security for the individual and for the family concerns itself primarily with three factors. People want decent homes to live in; they want to locate them where they can engage in productive work; and they want some

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safeguard against misfortunes -which cannot be wholly eliminated in this man-made world of ours.
Now, as a follower of this government I am very glad to say that I believe the legislation in hand or projected by it covers those three factors. Earlier in this session we had a discussion on the subject of homes. Anyone who travels across this country visiting our great cities, will find in them many homes not fit for human beings to live in, and not in large cities only but in our towns and villages and hamlets as well. I hope that the resolution moved earlier in the session in reference to the building of houses, and I believe more or less concurred in by all groups in the house, will be carried out.
In reference to productive work I will speak in a moment. As to safeguards against misfortunes that cannot be wholly eliminated, the resolution introduced by the Prime Minister (Mr. Bennett) yesterday, and supported, I believe, in principle in any event, by all parties, namely the resolution and later the bill on unemployment insurance, along with other bills which may be introduced later- although perhaps I have no right to speak of them, at present, will go a long way towards relieving the misfortunes under which the workers now suffer.
When this resolution was before the house on an earlier occasion I believe I said that it was in 1881 that the German Chancellor of that date, Prince Bismarck, first introduced the principle of an economic council and national planning. Germany herself did not do much with that until 1919 when in framing the German constitution at Weimar they incorporated in it that principle. Thereafter some seven or eight other European nations followed in line.
About the time of my visit to the old country in 1928, a special convention of the Liberal party of Great Britain had been planned to meet in Kingsway Hall, London, to discuss the question of industrial planning for that country. I discussed with several great manufacturers there and leaders of labour the subjects that were to come up at the meeting, which took place after I left England. That council was to consider national plans, not only for England but for all parts of the empire that are directed from Downing street. I find in a report of that council many recommendations, one being that a national economic council should be established, and another that a ministry of industry be established, and a council of industry consisting of 'twenty-five members. The report goes on to review the necessity for such a council and ministry, not to interfere with industry but to assist in developing it.
In 1931 the United States government also appointed a committee on this matter. I had the pleasure of visiting Washington to discuss with those associated with the committee their proposals. I will read one or two paragraphs in the report in reference to remarks made by the present Secretary of Labour at Washington, which I think are of interest in the present discussion. After all, any plan that any country is to use should include planning for work and for the proper housing and maintenance of the working classes. The present Secretary, Miss Perkins, then a witness before the committee, said:
A system of public employment exchanges would' assist us in organizing our labour market, and knowing where we needed to put the public works; people who had been longshoremen, for instance, could be sent into this pick and shovel work, and we would be in a position to take care of others at points where we would have to develop workshops. It would enable us, even in the midst of the depression, to take the best possible advantage of all the jobs there are.
In the operation of the unemployment insurance act in England they have divided the country into districts on a national planning scheme, with the purpose of providing employment in many districts. Miss Perkins describes that scheme in these words:
The English system is really excellent. In that little country they have 417 principal offices and 700 branches scattered over the country. So every market town has its branch employment agency and knows the needs of that particular locality. That is what has made it possible for the English to drain what they call their depressed areas.
We heard from the Prime Minister last night something of what is already planned by the government, and I congratulate them on it.
Before that committee in Washington many able and outstanding men in industry, finance and commerce appeared, one of whom was Henry I. Harriman, and he is quoted as saying, speaking as an individual:
I feel that if there had been in existence an economic council having the respect of the country, it would have been its duty to have pointed out the excess of speculation in 1928 and 1929, and the dangers of it, and the inevitable collapse that would follow such excessive speculation.
Whether that comes under a planning scheme I d'o not know, but certainly there should be some means of preventing what, took place in 1928 and 1929 in regard to speculation. He continues:
I think there should be set up a refe.tively-small economic council.
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And further on:
I believe that the council should be appointed by business and supported by business and should be, at the time, at any rate, purely advisory in its character, depending upon the type of men and on the character of its staff for its standing before the country. The problems that it will deal with are fundamental and underlying economic problems of the country, economic and business in their character.
The result of that very exhaustive inquiry into national planning is contained in a few resolutions which I will not take time to read. Reference is made to an examination of the natural resources of the country, as to how they can be best developed and in what association they should be developed. Reference is made also to the location of plants, many of which are located at points far removed from the best transportation facilities in regard to either raw products or the finished article. To my mind the result of the deliberations of that committee will have a beneficial effect on industry and employment in the United States, and I have no doubt that if Canada planned along similiar lines the benefit to employment and industry in this country would be equally great. The American Federation of Labour, at its convention in Vancouver, also endorsed the principle of economic national planning, and I believe it is high time that something should foe done in the way of national planning in connection with industry.
Many hon. members are acquainted with the tremendous advances that have been made in Russia. I am not one of those who decry the efforts of the Russians in any shape or form; I am willing to give them credit for anything they have done in the way of providing employment in their country. They have departed, of course, to a considerable extent from their first theory that there should be no increased compensation for ability. To-day in Russia ability is recompensed to an extent, though perhaps not to as great an extent as was the case before the Soviet republic was formed. They have established at Magnetogorsk a tremendous concentration of steel and iron production that must be considered not only by Canada but by the world in general. That concentration of productivity covers twenty-five square miles. They have built a dam 3,500 feet long and 38 feet high across the Ural river, and they develop several hundred thousand horse power. The operation of the plant requires approximately 25,000 tons of material daily. They have eight batteries of coke ovens, each producing a thousand tons daily. To-day
(Mr. MacNicol.]
they produce 2,600,000 ingots of steel per year. I have 'been associated with the iron industry, and through it with the steel industry, for many years, and I find it difficult to visualize a plant capable of producing 2,600,000 ingots yearly. At that plant they produce 2,100,000 tons of steel rails per year. We have two or more good steel rail plants in Canada; just fancy a plant capable of producing over 2,000,000 tons per year. They have three large blooming mills of immense capacity, with blowers that produce 115,000 cubic feet of air per minute. That is national planning, even if it is in Russia, and Canada will have to consider doing some national planning along similiar lines. Last year in Russia they produced 10,500,000 tons of pig iron. That was the second largest production in the world, and this year they are aspiring to exceed that amount.
All the planning is not in Russia, however; there has been planning in Canada, and what has been done here has been well done. A year or two ago in our own Department of the Interior we had a branch that planned for all Canada in regard to the development of industry. I am told that this branch is out of commission. Certainly it is not in the Interior department, though it may be tucked away in some other department. That little branch deserved a great deal of credit for what it did while it was in existence. It had something to do with encouraging the development in this country of the immense rayon business that has developed to such an extent in the riding of my hon. friend from Stormont (Mr. Shaver), and it had to do with other lines of industry as well. Our national research council is conducting many effective researches that should be beneficial, but in my opinion, though I may be wrong, their discoveries are not taken advantage of by industry to the extent that should be the case. I am sure that if all their discoveries were carried into manufacturing the result would be a considerable increase in employment.
Now I should like to refer to something that is being done in the city of Toronto, which city has had an industrial commission for some years. That commission has rendered very great and effective service by way of bringing industries to Toronto, thereby giving employment to men and women. The commission has been in operation for only a few years; I believe it was organized shortly before this government came into power. During the last four or five years that commission has been successful in bringing to the Toronto area approximately 125 new plants.

Social and Economic Research
I do not mean that 125 new factories were erected, but the new industries occupy 109 plants, either new or old, which they control. Sixteen of the industries sublet to other companies the manufacturing of their products. In these 125 new concerns, large and small, there are said to be employed 2,834 men, and the wages paid in one year amount to $2,822,000 or more. Perhaps not so much in the past year or two, but in days when they were making more money the great railroads had industrial planning commissions and undoubtedly they were successful in bringing many industries into the country, thereby providing employment. It is my view that if there were some way of coordinating industrial commissions, whether they be controlled by cities, railroads or other organizations, and bringing them under one national planning head we would save a great deal of wasted effort. Factories might not be erected in unsuitable locations. I have in mind a large factory which operates only at intervals and which so far as I am aware is not a financial success. It is forced to ship in its raw products to the plant location, and then must ship its finished product for hundreds of miles to the market for them. I believe if there were some system or scheme of national planning such as that advocated by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman) we would be taking a step in the right direction. I do not have in mind any plan which would interfere with industry, because industry does not want interference. I was connected with it for a long time and I believe I know something about it, all the way through. It does however welcome and will accept assistance.
During the recess I visited a number of industries and I was in a position to see where national planning could be made effective. While during the depression Canadian industry has lost a great deal, yet it has benefited through its association with American manufacturing plants. Canadian engineers and managers have learned something through association with men engaged in the same occupations living in the United States. The result has been that to-day in Canada we are manufacturing many lines of machinery we did not make formerly. I visited a large plant at Dundas, in the riding of the hon. member for Wentworth (Mr. Wilson), a great plant operated by John Bertram and Sons. While there I saw three new machines the company was manufacturing. I have before me a photograph of one machine which is capable of turning out newsprint or rolled paper at the rate of 3,000 feet per minute, the complete roll being four feet in diameter and having a
width of 306 inches. By individual effort that company induced the American owners of the patent to permit them to make it in Canada for export to the old country. I have no doubt our tariffs materially assisted, and undoubtedly the Ottawa agreements were in their favour. I am told these machines sell at a price ranging from $35,000 to $40,000, and that already several of them have been shipped out of this country.
While going through many plants it occurred to me that if we had national planning in industry, where industries would not have to spend their time and money experimenting, we would be farther ahead. If there were some national planning scheme to ascertain what could be economically made in Canada, and an effort made to induce Canadian companies to make those products industry would be greatly benefited and unemployment lessened.
The plant of John T. Hepburn Limited is in my riding, and I believe that company is now making some twenty-five new types of machinery, iron and steel appliances, which were not formerly made in Canada. In my talks with Mr. Hepburn we have agreed that if national planning were widely developed industry conditions of employment would be benefited.
Since the beginning of this parliament we have on many occasions heard the expression "the new age." Certainly in reference to production this is a new age; I would call it a power age. One can step into a plant to-day and simply by pulling a switch put the whole plant under operation; by pulling another switch he may set only one machine in motion. Because of automatic thermostats and other mechanical inventions employment is becoming a very complicated problem and I am convinced some planning will have to be developed to take care of the surplus employees who are thrown out of work by automatic equipment.
While we have an effective tariff, one with which I am in hearty accord, I sometimes feel that national planning might continue from where the tariff leaves off. The benefits which we have derived from the tariff and trade agreements might be augmented by some further degree of planning. While in northern Ontario looking over some mines I learned about a large steel order for steel plates which was going to be given to a foreign country. Upon returning to Toronto, through persuading people I knew, I was successful in having the order placed in Canada. That one order meant 21,000 man-days for Canadian workmen. I wonder how many orders for steel equipment and equipment of other kinds go to foreign manufacturers that could just as well be made
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in Canada. If there were some way of planning to assist industries to obtain these orders I am convinced industry and employment wouldl be greatly helpedi.
National planning should be, as I said at the commencement, directed towards three ends, namely, decent homes, plenty of productive work and safeguards against the misfortunes of unemployment. After twenty-five years' experience in the industrial field I know that no line of national endeavour gives as much employment as is given by the manufacturing industry. Canada has four billion dollars invested in industrial plants and in normal times, through the brains and experience of industrialists, our plants produce about four billion dollars worth of manufactured products and employ approximately 1,000,000 workers. Having that in mind I am delighted at all times to raise my voice in support of whatever I believe will encourage the development of our natural resources and give employment to our people, and I am happy indeed to support the efforts of the hon. member for Red Deer in this regard.


Mr. T. L. CHURCH (East Toronto):: Mr. Speaker, coming from a large industrial centre where there is a large number of high schools and technical schools I wish to say a word on this resolution. The people of Canada up to two or three years ago have not been in the forefront of industrial and scientific research, and the result has been that Canada, with a population fifty per cent agricultural workers and fifty per cent industrial workers, stands far behind the mother country and the United States in its plans and methods of scientific and economic research for the benefit of the people of the country, although our problems are in the main the problems of these two great industrial countries.
This whole resolution is wrapped up with the question of research-scientific research, industrial research and social research, and with the main problem of all, unemployment.
For many years from 1921 to 1930 I brought before this house a motion for the appointment of an advisory economic committee for Canada which would deal with economic questions. In February, 1929, I asked the government this question:
1.	Has the government any plans for providing employment for the great body of the unemployed?
2.	If so, what are they, and what action will be taken, and when?
Again, in March, 1930, I asked the government this question:

1.	Has the government any plans for providing useful employment for the great body of the unemployed?
2.	If so, what relief will be afforded?
3.	Will the government accept the offer of the province of Ontario to provide one-third of the cost of certain forms of relief in conjunction with the federal and the municipal authorities?
I also asked in the same year this question:
What steps, if any, will be taken by the government to promote the effective merchandising of agricultural commodities in interprovincial, inter-imperial or in foreign commerce. so that the great basic industry of agriculture will be placed on a basis of economic equality with that of other industries?
I also presented to the house the report that was made by a special committee of the ministerial associations of the country, urging away back in 1926 and 1927 the appointment of a joint committee to study these particular problems. I quote from that committee's report:
Your committee is conscious that results will depend upon the birth and cultivation of a public conscience, which shall demand that standard of living in which no worthy citizen or his or her dependents shall suffer from hunger or cold by the operation of economic or other conditions beyond his or their control.
Unemployment is an unsolved but solvable problem. It results generally from the operation of forces beyond the direct control of the wage-earner, and constitutes a menace and challenge to every citizen.
Your committee believes unemployment contributes to the moral, mental and physical deterioration of our citizens, and involves immense annual economic losses.
Your committee believes the burden of responsibility to be a joint one resting upon all citizens, and in particular embracing the federal, the provincial and civic administrations.
I do not wish to offer any criticism of the government, Mr. Speaker, in this connection, because this particular resolution is above party politics. It goes to the very basis of economic and industrial society. The resolution refers to the necessity for scientific planning on a national scale. All industrial society in this dominion was built up in my opinion by Sir John A. Macdonald's policy of protection for agricultural and industrial workers, to provide work for our own workmen and our own markets for our own products.
Some years ago we established a national research council, and I think one of the main objects of that council should be to devise a policy that will provide a job for every man in this country by developing our natural resources, through research, and again research.

Social and Economic Research
The creation of a national research council is all right in its way, as I said in 1929, but we want something more. We want research, and more research, to solve unemployment, which is a problem that has been aggravated by the advancement of science and the inroads of the machine. As I said the other day, I believe that the Edwardian and Georgian statesmen must accept part of the blame for their failure to study the advancement of science and the inroads of the machine and its relation to unemployment the whole world over.
In the United States over twelve years ago, while our Senate was on holidays, the United States Senate-it is never on holidays but works just as long as the house sits-appointed a committee to study the problem of unemployment. That committee, presided over by a very able man, Senator Couzens, former mayor of Detroit, made a study the world over of seasonal, technological and cyclical unemployment, and investigated the question of the contribution to unemployment of science and the machine. Then in 1929 and 1930, when the depression began, the people of the United States had an organization, federal, state and municipal, to cope with the problem because of the efforts of that committee which had been appointed twelve years before. In addition they had a census taken of their industrial workers, and there was a joint effort made by economic councils and various public bodies to solve the problem of unemployment with which they were confronted.
Similarly, Great Britain twenty-three years ago established old age pensions and sickness and unemployment insurance. I just point these things out, Mr. Speaker, to show what other countries have been doing. For nine or ten years in this house I brought this matter up myself, and I was told I was preaching blue ruin when I pointed out what had been done in England and the United States along the lines I have indicated.
After all is said and done, it is far more important that the heads of our families should have remunerative work. Our boards of trade and the federal Department of Trade and Commerce for the last fifteen years have been publishing returns showing an increase in the country's wealth, but without showing how it was distributed. What has been the effect of modern machinery on unemployment? Every new invention that is adopted in industry puts men out of work. Women can mind machines just as well as men, and many men have been displaced by women and the machine.
I believe in fair play between the producer and the consumer, and I think it is the duty of all men to consecrate their powers of mind and skill of hand to the bringing about of a better social order for the common good and not leave it to the government of the day alone to drag the country out of the mire. There is no true liberty for the working man to-day. His whole life and that of his family are at the mercy of economic forces which are entirely beyond the control of the wage earner. We are taught by the Carpenter of Nazareth that God endowed men not for their own good alone but that they might be of service to their fellows, and in the parable of the rich young man he condemned the wrong use of wealth. Profit making cannot be the basis of a purely Christian society; the wellbeing of the community as a whole should be the aim of each of its members.
This resolution deserves credit for bringing the problem to the attention of the house. The other day reference was made to our high schools. A large number of the high schools and collegiate institutes of Toronto are in my riding, and it is most unfortunate to see young men graduating every June merely to lead a jobless life. They do not like to sponge on their fathers and so they leave home and go west, riding the rods, as it is called, in the fall; and I am surprised that the provincial and municipal police authorities prosecute these young fellows. The country has spent some four billion dollars in connection with our railways by way of subsidies and one thing and another, and these young men, who cannot get any work at all, are prosecuted when they ride on the railways in this way. But the question is, Whence come these young men? They come from some of the finest homes in the country, Mr. Speaker, but after they graduate from our collegiate institutes they are left to shift for themselves in a way that should not be tolerated in a country which is supposed to be Christian.
Something should be done by our national and provincial councils along these lines. Our councils of research, national and provincial, are now at the crossroads so far as this problem of unemployment is concerned, and I hope that very soon they will be up and doing; instead of inactively occupying large houses of stone and mortar provided by the country, I suggest that they should do something practical to solve this problem which is wrapped up with many of the other questions which this parliament faces.

Social and Economic Research
Take the universities in the city I come from. They are spending between twelve and thirteen million dollars on public education. Some of the greatest students in this country, coming from the Atlantic and the Pacific, attend the university of Toronto, bright young men. What are these men to do when they graduate in June, in electrical engineering, for instance? They go to the United States, notwithstanding the fact that this country has a potential horse power of 42 million, only one-sixth of which has been developed. If our national council of research were to take up the problem I think something might be done for young Canadians graduating from our universities and from the high schools and technical schools.
Technical education has been a great boon to Canada, but we have not considered the problem that arises from the inroads of the machine and science and technical education into the employment of labour. It seems to me that something must be done to take care of our university students graduating not only in medicine but in various branches of science-mining, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, civil engineering and chemistry. Why can we not make use of the magnificent resources of the country, using the talents of these young men to develop those resources? Take medicine, for example: Sir Frederick Banting and many others equally gifted were on the verge of leaving this country for the United States. In fact, the large universities of the United States, are to-day staffed to a great extent by Canadian graduates. One might mention the university of Pennsylvania by way of example; and we know that one of the greatest hospitals in the world, that associated with Johns Hopkins, has had very eminent Canadians on its faculty. For instance, Doctor Osier, a great Canadian, was at one time head of clinical medicine there, and he was succeeded by Doctor Barker of Toronto university. by Doctor Cuilen and many others. What an advantage it would have been to Canada had these great men remained in this country.
I submit that there has been no planning in Canada commensurate with the growth of the country. We have spent immense sums of money in connection with our railways but without any organized plan. A year ago His Majesty the King spoke over the radio and his words were indeed a challenge to all who heard them. We can learn a good deal from what he said on that occasion, because there are many reforms to which this parliament should devote its attention-reforms economic, industrial, parliamentary and constitutional.
(Mr. Church.]
Speaking again last Christmas His Majesty said that the world was still restless and troubled but that the clouds were lifting. We have our anxieties, he said, but if we face them in the spirit of one family we shall overcome our difficulties.
I do not see why our national and provincial research and economic councils could not do something that would help to pull this country out of the mire of depression, because science has affected1 the working classes very seriously. People want work; that is the only cure. The large corporations of Canada have been given a charter by the Canadian people, a charter carrying certain privileges, and those privileges invlove the assumption of corresponding obligations. They owe a duty to their creator, the public, and on grounds of public policy they should be made to fulfil that duty. If they fail to do so then the community, which has created them, will be justified in stepping in and adopting measures for their regulation and control so that they shall not run counter to public opinion and social justice.
Personally I believe that the new policy of reform will very largely meet the purpose of this particular motion. Canadians must retain their liberty and their dignity; they must declare for the corporate state; they must declare for the reestablishment of the worker's independence and for the principle of private ownership, and they must see to it that there shall be security for all engaged in industry. To this end we must have protection brought up to date, as Sir John Macdonald intended, protection for the benefit of the consumer, protection for the benefit of labour, protection based on principle and not on privilege. I believe the country is hungry for such a policy along the lines of Sir John A. Macdonald's principle of protection brought up to date to meet changed conditions and to march with the times in order to take care of the forgotten man. Such a policy will also establish a much closer union between town and country and much more intimate dealings and trade relationships between Great Britain and her great dominions and colonies than even the great Joseph Chamberlain ever dreamed of.
Such a policy will conserve our natural resources. It will give the business man a chance to function unfettered and afford him real protection from the abuses of competition and restraint of trade, from gigantic mergers and from hostile and destructive competition. The great industrial revolution in England was the work of seven or eight young men, some of them with

Social and Economic Research
no education at all and without any of the advantages of the youth of to-day. It sprang from the, very hearts of the people themselves where all great inventions, discoveries and great public benefits come, yet it changed the whole life habits of the people of England and converted that country from an agricultural to an industrial nation making it the work house of the world. I believe in such a policy for Canada. I believe the new deal which is enunciated by my leader is a progressive policy, a progressive policy for a progressive party. He said that the Conservative party would now dedicate itself to protecting the consumer and labour from the admitted abuses as revealed by the price spreads investigation, and would write a new national policy and a new industrial magna charta based on it along the lines I have indicated. It would be a policy which would rescue the workers of this country from an industrial slavery as bad as or worse than conditions a hundred years ago in England at the time of the industrial revolution. The rule and day of sweatshops and child labour unregulated has gone forever in this country, and so it should be with the scandalous minimum wages paid in some industries.
I belong to a group of people in this country who have stood up for certain principles in government and who have received much criticism in consequence, because I believe in fair principles as against mere opportunism in government-passing the buck. I remember once a little band of die-hards who were called by even harder names, the old con-temptibles, yet they succeeded in saving England, France and the world as well by their tenacity, faith, earnestness and high purpose ; and the Conservative party by its tenacity will likewise achieve its purpose.
In the early days of the people of this country, as I said the other day, we were a nation of property owners. In the days of Macdonald, Cartier and Brown everybody owned some property. The suburban or rural worker as well as the white collar worker owned a small home, small garden, perhaps a cow, a building or a small store. To-day, the rights of property have gone in this country; it is divided into a country of haves and have-nots. The whole means of production in Canada is in the hands of the few and the many have nothing. I believe the policy of our party will restore the rights of property in Canada. It is the politics of big business which has been destroying Canada. The Conservative party I believe is going to restore the ownership of property which is the normal want of a family. We have done forever
with the doctrine of laissez-faire and we must dedicate ourselves as a House of Commons to a solution of the question of distribution and restore the Canada of Macdonald, Brown and Cartier, Laurier, Whitney and Beck, when Canada was the land of the free and the home of artisans and farmers who owned some form of private and real property.
The day of die-hardism and laissez-faire has gone beyond recall. So has the doctrine of normalcy. We saw what happened to the government in the United States. The square deal of Theodore Roosevelt and the new freedom sought by Woodrow Wilson came to an end in the Harding administration. Mr. Hoover was a man of great ability and one who did a great deal for his country, but we have parted once and for all, and I hope all parties in this house will part once and for all, with normalcy, and consider a policy that will go back to the masses of the country and to the days where the political parties started in Canada, and that we shall have some help from the national research council and the provincial research councils and especially from the church. I have great respect for the churches in this country. I do not believe they have gone as far as they should. Prior to four or five years ago they did not speak out as they should against the exploitation of the humble worker. A hundred years ago in the days of the evangelical movement, the Wesley and Oxford movements, they wakened up the people of England to the conditions that prevailed. In 1847 Lord Shaftesbury introduced the first bill for the ten hour day and for the regulation of sweatshops and other business. Let mp in conclusion quote a few lines from Balleine's History of the Evangelical Party, in which he referred to the revolution in England of a hundred years ago:
The industrial revolution had produced a state equivalent to slavery among many of the men and women and children of Britain itself. The leader of the campaign to end the slavery of his own people was Anthony Ashley Copper, afterwards seventh Earl of Shaftesbury. "I am essentially and from deep rooted conviction," he said in his later life, "an Evangelical of the Evangelicals. I have worked with them constantly, and I am satisfied that most of the great philanthropic movements of the century have sprung from them." This religion he had learned from Maria Millis, a servant in the Shaftesbury household, who had been his nurse for the first seven years of his life. She taught him the great passages of the Bible; and so it came to pass that this poor woman was Shaftesbury's spiritual mother. Without her Shaftesbury never would have fought his fight for the emancipation of the workers.

Social and Economic Research
It is interesting to compare Shaftesbury's motives with those of his contemporary, Karl Marx, the founder and originator of what is now known as Bolshevism. Both men challenged the existing social order. Both pleaded the cause of the weak and disinherited. Both had a vision of a better world. But Shaftesbury believed in the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man. He believed that all Christians were called to he co-workers with God in establishing the reign of social justice. His outlook was spiritual and his method persuasion. Marx, on the other hand, agitated for a class war; his creed was materialistic; his method was revolution.
As Balleine says in one paragraph:
It is difficult for us at the present day to comprehend the horrors which were rampant in England less than a hundred years ago.
It would not be difficult after reading some of the evidence recently given on industrial conditions in Canada.
It is difficult for us at the present day to comprehend the horrors which were rampant m England less than a hundred years ago. Lunatics, men as well as women, were chained in dark cells, flogged, dropped into water, sometimes half strangled, and even confined in iron cages. In the factories babes of five were made to stand on stools and feed the great machines for fourteen hours a day. In the mines children were compelled to push trucks through underground passages sometimes only sixteen inches in height. On hand's and knees they crawled through what was practically one long living tomb. The men who were placed over them were paid according to the amount of work done, and drove the children to their task with whips ami blows and other tortures. But women and children and lunatics had at last found their champion. Shaftesbury had entered parliament in the year 1826. After many years of labour and incessant abuse he saw his Factory Bill placed on the Statute Book in the year 1847. This great victory was the first of many in Shaftesbury's career. Throughout life he fought for the weak and the unprivileged, passing to his reward as late as 1885.

He (Shaftesbury) was a layman to the core; yet no nobler prophet of God is included in the calendar of saints. Cardinal Manning made no rash statement, when, after studying Shaftesbury's endeavours he exclaimed, "I feel that my life has been wasted."
So I say the resolution introduced this afternoon has not been wasted if it can arouse the people of Canada to do something for the high-school population and the industrial workers of the country, for the consumer and the labourer.
Mr. ONESIME GAGNON (Dorchester); Mr. Speaker, I did not intend to speak on this resolution, but I am wondering why our
i Mr Church.]
Liberal friends on the other side do not appear to take any interest in social plans and reforms.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We want reforms, not debates.
Mr. GAGNON; I am happy to congratulate the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman) on his well ordered argument. Although I am not ready to accept all parts of his resolution, nevertheless I agree heartily with its spirit and with almost everything he has said in this house concerning it. I am very pleased to hear my hon. friend become the spokesman of his party andi congratulate the government on having announced that they propose to create a national economic council for Canada. This creation is indeed most opportune. May I tell you, Mr. Speaker, that Conservatives have always initiated reforms in all countries of the world. I remember that in the life of Marshal Lyautey, one of the greatest generals of France, the author, Andre Maurois said that "an intelligent Conservative is always a reformer." I also remember what Senator Thomas Chapais, who is a member of the Senate and the leader of the opposition in the legislative council of Quebec, said about the Conservative party. "Conservatives," he said, "are always traditional and progressive." May I remind the house that in 1933 at the Sherbrooke convention, the Conservative party put forward as one of the main points of its program, the creation of an economic council for the province of Quebec. Not only has the Conservative party of Quebec proposed that reform, but an important wing of the Liberal party of Quebec has recommended lately, jointly with the Conservative party of Quebec, the creation of an economic council for that province, to be substituted for the legislative council. I suppose my hon. friends on the other side know what has taken place in Quebec during the last six months. Not only members of the Quebec House of Assembly and members of the Legislative Council also, but one federal member, my good friend and neighbour, the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Lacroix), have become leaders of the so-called Reform-Progressive-Liberal party of Quebec. These gentlemen agree upon and are to-day advocating the abolition of the legislative council and the substitution therefor of an economic council.
May I say farther, that I agree heartily with what my hon. friend from Red Deer said when he congratulated the government on its proposal to create a national economic council for Canada. No doubt the gentlemen who will become members of that council will

Social and Economic Research
be learned in economics, finance, agriculture and industry, and will render great service to the government and the country. The government deserve to be commended for having initiated a great step forward towards the solution of our social problems.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Speaker, I suggest to the
hon. gentleman (Mr. Speakman) who has moved this resolution with his usual clarity of expression that as it has served the purpose of precipitating discussion, he should now withdraw it, for the simple and obvious reason that the general principles to which he refers are included in the speech from the throne, and it is contemplated that action shall be taken along the lines suggested by his resolution. It is true that the resolution goes a very long way, perhaps further than the speech from the throne suggests. But in view of the commission that was set up, and consequent upon the action taken by this house last year dealing with price spreads and unfair competition, I have felt some hesitancy in introducing tq this chamber legislation dealing with some of these matters until that commission's report is forthcoming. For the same reason I shall not traverse the ground to-day that has been so admirably covered by the addresses to which we have listened. I can only say this, that sometimes there is confusion of thought with respect to what is called scientific planning for a country. The raw materials from which conclusions may be drawn with respect to a matter of this kind are entirely different from the raw materials dealt with by scientists. The experiments carried on by those who dig and delve in the purely scientific field of research lead to conclusions that are definite, exact and certain. The materials with which men deal when they have to consider the problems to which this resolution relates may be said to be statistics gathered from many sources, and facts, events, circumstances, conditions. From that material men seek to draw inferences and conclusions. The soundness of the inferences, the correctness of the conclusions, may not always be apparent, in the very nature of things cannot be. But one thing is certain, that in this country during the last few years we have had sufficient experience to enable us to realize that we have not availed ourselves of the knowledge which we had in days gone by, nor have we arrived at the correct conclusions from the information we had. It will be recalled that we had a commission of conservation in this country at one time, and that an effort was
made to arrive at a definite statement of the conditions under which water power might be produced, and energy generated by which we might be able to increase the productivity of our forests, our mines or other resources. But it was found that at the moment it did not serve the purpose that was intended. The correlation of the knowledge that departments of government have is most important. For instance I can say frankly that not a week goes by that one does not receive suggestions from every part of this country. These suggestions are based very largely upon the experience of the individuals who write to us. They are experiences and conclusions that in many instances they draw from facts supplied by the statistical departments of various governments and countries. What is to be done with them? Are you to acknowledge receipt of them and dismiss them, or are you to give them that measure of thoughtful consideration which your time permits? Obviously untrained minds are not capable of drawing the conclusions that should be drawn from a mass of material such as we have sent to us from time to time. And as the mass of material increases, representing the views of this and that individual, based, as I have said, in some instances upon inferences drawn from known facts and in other instances without any foundation at all, you have a great mass of material that in my judgment should be considered by scientifically trained minds so that they might be able, just as the scientists test the material at their disposal, to draw inferences which the trained minds of men accustomed to draw conclusions from data of this character may be able to secure. But if it is suggested, as I do not think it is or has been by anyone, that a government should undertake to tell' John Smith how he should run his business, I think there is unanimity on the part of all of us that we will not accomplish the purpose we have in mind. If you consider John Smith as part of the population of the country, able to draw sound conclusions as to what should be done in order to secure successful results, then to make available the information you have to John Smith and all others I think is a wholly desirable function of government.
As I have said, Mr. Speaker, I think perhaps it would be highly improper, in view of the action taken by this chamber, to discuss this matter for the reasons I have given, not only because the speech from the throne contemplates action being taken but because that action is delayed for the moment by reason of the fact that the price spreads commission has

Social and Economic Research
not made a report, and that commission is dealing with two or three very important phases, of the matters to which the hon. gentleman has directed attention. This house will have to discuss at a later time the recommendations made by that commission and the measure to be introduced by the government following the statement made in the speech from the throne. I do suggest to the hon. gentleman that the purpose he has in mind has been served, and while congratulating him and the other members of the house on the contribution they have made as to the value of scientific knowledge being applied to the nation and its affairs, as scientific ideas are with respect to the transaction of ordinary business by the various concerns carrying on the trade and commerce of the country, for those reasons I think the resolution might be withdrawn.


Mr. WILFRED HANBURY (Vancouver-Burrard):: Mr. Speaker, to any resolution intended to encourage the formation of an economic council I would give my support, but in considering this resolution I must place upon it the interpretation which I feel sure was intended by the mover, and not the interpretation which has been placed upon it by the Prime Minister (Mr. Bennett) or those to your right who have spoken this afternoon. I believe I am justified in placing on record my interpretation, and what I feel sure the mover will admit is his interpretation of the resolution. The resolution states:
That, in the opinion of this house, the time has arrived, and is long overdue, when a degree of well considered and scientific planning, on a national scale, should be substituted for the present practice of uncontrolled competition and unguided individual effort, in the conduct of the economic life of Canada.
I do not think there should be any misunderstanding on the part of hon. members of this house as to just what that means. Hon. gentlemen opposite have interpreted this to mean the establishment of an economic council, which I do not think is the interpretation intended. I submit to the mover of the resolution that the interpretation might be expressed in these words: "That in the opinion of the house the time has arrived when national planning should be substituted for competition and individual effort in the life of Canada.'' I think hon. members should fully understand what they are going to support or oppose. So far as I am concerned I am quite prepared to support the establishment of an economic council on any reasonable basis, but IMr. Bennett.]
I am certainly opposed to the elimination from the national life of Canada of competition and individual effort.


Alfred Speakman: May I say at once, Mr. Speaker, that I have no abjection at all to accepting the Prime Minister's suggestion that this resolution now might be withdrawn, particularly as the measure indicated in the speech from the throne will give ample opportunity to discuss and pronounce upon certain of the principles involved in this motion. I should like, however, for a moment to comment upon two statements made by the Prime Minister and upon one statement made by the hon. gentleman who has just spoken.
The Prime Minister pointed out, quite properly, that planning in economic matters differed very materially from planning in what we call technical science, and I can assure him that I fully appreciate that distinction. In dealing with matters of technical science you are dealing with factors that have known and tangible qualities which are unvarying and unchanging and to which, therefore, definite mathematical formulae may be properly applied. But we realize very fully that in dealing with human nature and human activity you are dealing with a factor which is unknown, which is intangible and which frequently varies, and that therefore we must always differentiate between the two forms of planning. I do not think, however, that this detracts from the value of proper guidance and proper control in the management of human affairs, which I conceive to be part of the duty of the state. Personally that is the attitude I would wish to take, and I believe it is the only attitude which would lead to success. You must consider all the factors and all the conditions and then do the best you can to bring about orderly conduct and orderly planning in view of those conditions.
But the Prime Minister went on to say that in his concept of planning while, with the mass of information at the disposal of such a body or of the government, you might assist John Smith in the conduct of his individual business by advising him as to the best course he might pursue, you must not tell John Smith how to carry on his own business. To a degree I follow the Prime Minister in this argument, but there is a point at which we must part company. I believe that every law we have ever had, every law at least inside and some laws outside the criminal code, is directed towards telling John Smith what he may or may not do in the

Trade with United States
conduct of his own affairs and activities, if be in the conduct of his own business runs counter to the best interests of the community as a whole. I believe that the state is fully entitled to tell John Smith either what he may or may not do in the conduct of his own business if that conduct affects beneficially or deleteriously society as a whole, because I still believe that society as a whole has claims which far transcend the claims of any individual within that society, and that in the final analysis the activities of the individual, that apparently may be his own interests, must be subordinated if they run counter to or conflict with the best interests of the people as a whole. So to that extent, if my understanding of the Prime Minister's statement is correct, I am afraid I must go beyond the Prime Minister in my understanding of the principle of economic planning.
Now I should like to make one reference to what was said by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Hanbury). He stated that his understanding of my meaning was that I would substitute central planning and central control for individual competition and individual effort. I neither said so nor did I intend to indicate any such thing. What I did say in the resolution was that I would substitute central planning and central control for uncontrolled competition and unguided individual effort. In other words emphasis was laid upon the control necessary in respect to competition when that competition became, as it frequently has become deleterious to the best interests of the community. I would guide that individual effort along lines where it might give the best possible service to the whole state. The resolution must be read as it is, and the wording of the resolution must be followed if my meaning is to be understood. I say again that uncontrolled competition and unguided effort have brought about the trouble, not individual effort in itself. Individual initiative is a splendid thing, something which has to be sought and encouraged, but it must not be left unguided or uncontrolled if because of the lack of guidance and lack of control the activities of the individual have a bad effect upon society as a whole. I would say at once that only when the activities of the individual run counter to the best interests of society, or only when the activities of the individual do not give to society the best service they could give, should society directly control that individual. When they reach that point the state has a right to intervene and to speak with effective voice.
At the present time that is all I wish to say. May I thank the house for the consideration it has given the motion. In view of the fact the whole question will be open for discussion, and that the principle will be discussed and decided upon when the measure contemplating the creation of an economic council is brought down, I shall be glad to withdraw the motion. As I said, had I known before the motion was put upon the order paper that an economic council had been promised and would be created the motion would not have been before us to-day. I am content now to withdraw the resolution.
Motion (Mr. Speakman) withdrawn.



TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES


[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Mr. Duff:
That, in the opinion of this house, it is expedient that the government of Canada reopen negotiations with the government of the United States of America with a view of bringing about a satisfactory reciprocal trade agreement between Canada and the United States, whereby the natural products of Canada, that is, the products of the sea, the farm, the mines and the forests, and including fish, lumber, wheat, cattle, etc., should have free entry into the United States in exchange for the admission of certain goods from the United States of America, which in the interests of both countries may be admitted into Canada, free from customs tariffs.
Mr. DUFF:: Mr. Speaker, it is significant
that this motion dealing with a reciprocal trade arrangement between the United States and Canada should come up for consideration on January 30. This is a day of national importance in the United States. To-night some
7,000	charity balls are to be held throughout that great country, the proceeds of which are to be devoted to the care of crippled children. To-day is the birthday of that great statesman in the United States of America, the Hon. Franklin D. Roosevelt. Before I direct my observations to what I should like to have done with this motion may I extend my congratulations to the President of the United States and wish him very many happy returns of the day.
When the motion was called on Monday I asked that it stand, in view of the fact that we were told only a few days before that this government and the government of the United States were entering into negotiations with regard to a reciprocal trade agreement. For that reason I felt I should not go on with
Pensions jor the Blind

the motion, and I have not changed my views in that regard. In the future there will be an opportunity either on the budget or at some other time to deal with this matter, and because I should like the Prime Minister to proceed with his reform legislation I am content that this motion now stand.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Shall this motion be
dropped from the order paper?


William Duff: According to the rules of the
house, it being called twice, it is dropped.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes.
Motion dropped.



PENSIONS FOR THE BLIND


Mr. I. D. COTNAM (North Renfrew) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the provisions of the Old Age Pensions Act should apply to blind people over 40 years of age.
He said: Mr. Speaker, due to the fact that in the present session members throughout the house have been unanimous on almost everything that has been introduced I am sure I will be expressing the opinion of hon. members on this side of the house when I endorse the sentiments expressed by the hon. member for Antigonish-Guysborough (Mr. Duff) respecting the President of the United States. I should like to make that sentiment unanimous.


William Duff: If the hon. member would allow me may I say that another great man has a birthday to-day; I refer to the gentleman now occupying the chair (Mr. Morand).


Ira Delbert Cotnam: I am sure hon. members on this side of the house will be pleased to express unanimously the same good wishes concerning the gentleman now occupying the chair.
I make no apologies to the house for offering the resolution standing in my name for consideration, namely a motion suggesting that the provisions of the Old Age Pensions Act should apply to blind people over forty years of age. For many years both professionally and socially I have been deeply interested in many of the poor and needy who have been afflicted with blindness.
On March 17, 1929, I had the honour of introducing a resolution calling on the government of the day to nationalize the supply of radium in order that it might be made

available for the cure of patients afflicted with cancer. Up until that time no real .state action had been taken with respect to the control and cure of that disease. Subsequent to that date, I believe in 1930, the Hon. G. Howard Ferguson who was then premier of Ontario formed a commission which was sent to Great Britain and other countries on the continent of Europe and also to the United States to study the question of cancer, and the application and control of radium for the treatment of that disease. As a result of the report which was made by the Ontario commission cancer centres were established. One was formed at Kingston, another at London, Ontario, another at the university of Toronto and only recently one has been formed in this capital city of Ottawa. Other centres have been established at various points in the dominion for the purpose of studying the control and treatment of cancer through the use of radium and other means at our disposal.
It is interesting to note that at the present time there is a campaign on foot throughout the British empire for the purpose of studying the cancer problem, a problem which is becoming one of the great concerns of the medical world. Subsequent to the time of the introduction of that resolution extensive deposits of pitchblende ore were discovered in northern Canada, near Great Bear lake, by the LaBine brothers. Those brothers came from a township in the constituency I have the honour to represent. Very shortly afterwards a discovery was made by one of the mining engineers in the Department of Mines at Ottawa, namely Mr. W. B. Timm. He, too, comes from the county of Renfrew; in fact his family live within a few miles of the point where the LaBine brothers were born. Mr. Timm was successful in extracting radium from pitchblende ore by a new process. That process of extraction has been carried on at Port Hope in the province of Ontario, and we hope and believe that it is going to be of material benefit in helping to control and cure the scourge of cancer and assist in the campaign which is being carried on at the present time with that object in view.
The first effort at organization in aid of the blind occurred in the fourth century by St. Basil in Cappadocia. Two hundred years later a retreat was established in Jerusalem, and not long afterwards the movement was originated by St. Bertrand in France. In the eleventh century hospitals were founded by William the Conqueror in Normandy. It was not, however, until the eighteenth century that any real attempt was made to educate or train the blind.

Pensions for the Blind
Valentine Hauy, who has been called "The father and apostle of the blind," spent his lifetime in furthering the interests of those afflicted with blindness.
In the early part of the nineteenth century the New England Blind Institute was organized and also the Massachusetts School for the Blind. William H. Prescott, the blind historian, was one of the organizers.
In Great Britain, the earliest legislation for the welfare of the blind was enacted in the days of Queen Elizabeth, but it was almost three hundred years later before a royal commission was appointed, in 1886, to investigate the conditions of the blind. This commission reported in 1889 and its report resulted in the passing of the Elementary Education Act in 1893. In 1914, as a result of a resolution in the House of Commons, a departmental committee was set up to investigate into the general welfare of the blind. In August, 1919, the Ministry of Health issued regulations and rules governing grants used out of public moneys to be distributed for the welfare of the blind In 1920, the Blind Persons Act was passed by which blind persons in Great Britain received the Old Age Pension at the age of fifty years instead of at the age of seventy years. In March, 1927, 14,562 persons in England and Wales were in receipt of a blind pension. Provision was also made for the education and care of the blind children, and, where possible, they were trained for remunerative employment.
Mr. CASGRAIN. May I ask the hon.
gentleman what document he is reading from?


Ira Delbert Cotnam: I am reading from information which I have extracted from various sources in connection with the legislation for the blind that has been adopted in different parts of the world.
The English act also provides for the keeping of a register of the blind persons within each area. Voluntary institutions have also carried on work in Great Britain in aid of the blind since 1791.
Blind men and women throughout the ages have carved out for themselves important positions in the world. The story of the education and achievements of Laura Bridgman, who was deaf, dumb and blind, and of Helen Keller, and other deaf, blind mutes is known to almost everyone.
The world war gave a fresh impetus to the movement for the emancipation of the blind in every rank and walk of life, and it was largely instrumental in bringing to public attention the necessity for special recognition of those afflicted with blindness; and 92582-22
as the result of private and public efforts, education and training has been secured to enable blind people to succeed in literature, the arts, the church, law, politics, agriculture, and so forth.
Practically every civilized country in the world to-day recognizes the handicaps under which their blind population exists, and have endeavoured in every way possible to mitigate the tremendous handicaps under which these people carry on. Special legislation has been enacted in Scotland, France, Spain, Hungary, Italy, Switzerland, Finland, Czechoslovakia and the United States to aid their blind.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: I rise again to a point
of order, Mr. Speaker. I have listened to the hon. gentleman, and he says that he is quoting from legislation that has been passed in other parts of the world, but judging from what he has read it looks more so if he were reading his speech than quoting the legislation in force in other parts of the world.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: I do not know just what
the hon. member means. Would he make himself a little more clear?


Pierre-François Casgrain: The hon. gentleman has stated that he was quoting legislation obtaining in various parts of the world, but judging by the tenor of his remarks, it is rather a history he is giving of the situation instead of quoting what has been done in various parts of the world. I think he is reading his speech, which is contrary to the rules of the house.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: The hon. gentleman sometimes reads his speeches. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, this is purely a technical question and I wish to give the house accurate information on the subject. Perhaps the hon. gentleman does not care to get accurate information. Apparently he is like some others who sit in this house and who are not really interested in social legislation when a matter of this kind comes up. What I am trying to do is to show what has been done elsewhere, and to show also the conditions leading up to the position that Canada is in at the present time with respect to the care of her blind population.
Systems of reading for the blind have been invented, of which the best known is the Braille system, Louis Braille, himself, became blind when he was three years of age. He was bom near Paris in 1809. To-day, his system has been adapted even to the Chinese language.

Pensions for the Blind

Much has been done towards the prevention of blindness. The necessity for this preventive work is readily grasped when one considers that probably twenty-five per cent to thirty-three and one-half per cent of the world's blindness is preventable.
It would be of interest to note, in passing, the enormous number of blind people that there are in the civilized world, of which we have a record.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I rise to a point of order. I have raised the point of order twice already. I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, if it is in order for a member to read his speech as the hon. member is reading just now.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: The hon. gentleman should take a look at his own side of the house sometimes. As I say, this is purely a technical question, and I have here a great many figures that have been gathered from different sources, and I wish to have them placed accurately on the records of this house. The hon. member apparently is not so very careful about the accuracy of his statements sometimes. If I cared to make a speech in this house without notes I think I could make just as good a one as the hon. gentleman who is so ready to interrupt.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I have risen to a point of order, Mr. Speaker.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: I object to the hon. gentleman interrupting. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman has stated any point of order. It is just an opinion of his own that he is expressing, and nobody else is worrying about the matter at all.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I have raised the point
of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for the hon. gentleman to read his speech as he is doing?


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr. Spotton):: I take it that the hon. member is just using his notes, as is the custom.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: The number of blind people of which we have a record is enormous. Perhaps the hon. member for Charlevoix-Saguenay (Mr. Casgrain) with his fine memory would be able to quote these figures offhand. In England and Wales there are 46,822 blind people; in Scotland, 6,939; Northern Ireland, 1,758; in India there is the enormous total of 479,637 blind people; in Burma, 25,000; Austria, 5,359. In China blindness is very prevalent but government statistics are not available to show the total number of blind people there. Czechoslovakia has 5,000 blind people;

France, 29,000; Germany, 35,624; Japan, 100,000; Poland, 16,144, and the United States of America, 75,000.
The world's history furnishes the names of many blind people who became prominent in public and private affairs. John Stanley was born blind in 1713. He studied music and graduated as Music Bachelor at Oxford when sixteen years of age. He was a composer and received the degree of Doctor of Music, and was master of the King's band. Marie Paradis was born blind, but became famous as a pianist and vocalist. Doctor T. R. Armitage was born in 1824. He graduated in medicine and lost his sight at the age of thirty-six years. He afterwards devoted his life to the cause of the blind. Elizabeth Gilbert was born in 1826. She became blind at the age of three years, and devoted her whole life to the welfare of the blind. Sir Francis James Campbell, who was born in the state of Tennessee, became blind at the age of three years. He made many notable contributions to the cause of the blind. Henry Fawcett was accidentally blinded in his twenty-fifth year. He went to Cambridge university and became professor of political economy. He was elected as a member of the British House of Commons and later became Postmaster General of Great Britain. Doctor William Moon lost his sight in his early manhood. He made many contributions to the cause of the blind. Sir Arthur Pearson, the great newspaper magnate, who later became blind, left the stamp of his work for the blind throughout the British empire. He established the National Institute for the Blind in 1913-1914. No resume of famous blind people would be complete without mention of Fielding and John Milton. The latter ranks with Shakespeare in the writing of poetry and prose. Two of his most outstanding productions that will endure as long as the Anglo-Saxon tongue is spoken were Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained. These works were written after he became blind. Many of the famous musicians of the world were blind, two of the greatest being Bach and Handel, who became blind towards the end of their careers.
Coming more particularly to the position of the blind in Canada, our blind population, according to the records of the bureau of statistics, number about 6,350 people, though some estimates place it as high as 8,000. The total number of blind persons over the age of twenty-one years in Canada is 5,053. Within this classification, we find: mental defectives, 219; Indians, 73; old age pensioners, 221; workmen's compensation board blind, 47; mothers' allowance pensioners, 42; blinded

Pensions jor the Buna
soldiers, 102. These groups are already recipients of financial assistance. In the seventy year and over classification, according to provinces, we find as follows: Prince Edward Island, 21; Nova Scotia, 104; New Brunswick, 57; Quebec, 289; Ontario, 527; Manitoba, 166; Saskatchewan, 147; Alberta, 66; British Columbia, 98; the total number of males blind being 767; females, 698-making a grand total of 1,465. For pensions estimates in this classification, there should be deducted: Indians, old age pensioners, workmen's compensation board cases, mothers' allowance pensioners and mental defectives, totalling in all 314. In the fifty to sixty-nine years classification: Prince Edward Island, 17; Nova Scotia, 112; New Brunswick, 82; Quebec, 293; Ontario, 711; Manitoba, 166; Saskatchewan, 136; Alberta, 56; British Columbia, 122; making a total number of males blind, 1,064; females, 631-making a grand total of 1,695. For pensions estimates in this classification there should be deducted: Indians, workmen's compensation board cases, mothers' allowance pensioners, and blinded soldiers cases, totalling in all 130. In the forty to forty-nine years classification: Prince Edward Island, 5; Nova Scotia, 68; New Brunswick, 27; Quebec, 138; Ontario, 305; Manitoba, 64; Saskatchewan, 68; Alberta, 33; British Columbia, 61; making a total male population of blind 537, and females, 233-or a grand total of 770. For pensions estimates, deduct Indians, mental defectives, mothers' allowance pensioners and blinded soldiers, totalling in all 108. For purposes of record, I shall also furnish an estimate of the number of blind in the various provinces between the ages of twenty-one and thirty-nine: Prince Edward Island, 13; Nova Scotia, 120; New Brunswick, 69; Quebec, 240; Ontario, 399; Manitoba, 103; Saskatchewan, 84; Alberta, 44; British Columbia, 51, making a total male population of 703 and a total female population of 420, or a grand total of 1,123. I have not prepared a classification of those under the age of twenty-one years who are afflicted with blindness.
Canada did little for her civilian blind population until the world war attracted her attention to the needs of the blind. No actual statistical records had been attempted up to that time. In 1916, however, the Canadian National Institute for the Blind was organized. They obtained a federal charter in 1918. which had for its object the amelioration of the conditions of the blind and the prevention of blindness. Federal grants covering administrative expenses only were received, while private contributions and provincial government grants were received to 92582-224
cover the practical work from the Atlantic to the Pacific and including Newfoundland.
Through the National Council for Child Welfare, the national institute locates blind infants and watches their development. Treatment at birth to prevent ophthalmia neonatorum is compulsory. Sight-saving classes have been started in several centres. Technical training as well as educational instruction is provided in Canadian schools for the blind. Training and institutional instruction is given to those who lose their sight between the ages of twenty-one and fifty years.
The Canadian National Institute for the Blind has for its patron His Excellency the Governor General of Canada, and many of the more prominent people in the public and social life of this country are associated in its activities from coast to coast. The work done on behalf of our blind by these organizations cannot be overestimated. The depression has taught us at least one useful lesson, that after all man is his brother's keeper.
In October, 1933, a united memorial was presented to the right honourable the Prime Minister of Canada by various organizations for aid and assistance to the blind. In that memorial reference was made to the fact that the underlying reasons which lead to the provision of pensions for the blind in Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, and elsewhere were precisely the same as those that obtained in Canada. It was felt that voluntary contributions had steadily decreased during the period of the depression, with the result that the whole position of the blind population became accentuated. It was also pointed out that the provisions for general and unemployment relief funds deal only with cases from a destitution standpoint, and greater assistance is required to relieve the destitution of the blind than of persons with their sight; also, the whole problem is not a transient one, resulting from the present economic conditions, but is one of destitution arising from permanent unemployability. Voluntary agents are no longer able to meet the needs of the permanently unemployable adult blind, as sufficient private funds cannot be secured. Under the circumstances, it was pointed out to the government that the only adequate solution was the provision of a state pension or allowance. According to dispatches which appeared in the Toronto Mail and Empire on Saturday, June 30, 1934, the matter had been discussed before the dominion-provincial conference, having been introduced by the Prime Minister of Canada on the request of the National Institute for the Blind and the Canadian Federation for the

Pensions for the Blind
Blind. The conference itself was held in camera, and it was generally understood that Hon. Mr. Price, then Attorney-General of Ontario, was ready to implement any move that might be taken with a view to further aiding the blind pensioners. It was further stated that the whole matter would be reviewed with the improvement of the general financial situation.
We have in Canada many Canadians who have achieved great distinction in the various walks of life. I shall mention merely two, although there are many, many others. The late Trooper Lome Malloy, of Prescott, who was blinded during the South African war, later returned to this country, graduating with high honours in arts and law from Queens university. Later he took the law course at Osgoode Hall, Toronto, and practised law-in the county of Dundas. Mr. Phillip E. Layton, president of the Montreal Association for the Blind, is himself blind, and to-day he is recognized as one of Canada's greatest Canadians. Through his work and philanthropy he has done much to ameliorate the conditions of our blind.
I feel that the Prime Minister and all the members in all parts of the house are in sympathy with the subject matter of this resolution, and, in my humble opinion, the time has come when as a Christian nation we should give this deserving class of our citizens the benefit of state assistance. The courage and fortitude of those afflicted with blindness has been an amazing revelation to all those who from time to time come into contact with individual cases of blindness.
Our total blind population, if we place it at the maximum figure, is 8,000. Forty per cent of this total, or 3,200, are between the ages of forty and seventy years. If we deduct from this number for pension purposes, blind soldiers, people of independent means, employed blind and workmen's compensation board cases, mothers' allowance pensioners, Indians and mental defectives, all otherwise provided for, totalling 974, this leaves a pensionable balance of 2,026. An estimated pension of $240 per annum would cost this country-


Pierre-François Casgrain: I rise to a point of order. Mr. Speaker, before you took the chair a few minutes ago I had risen twice to a point of order to the effect that the hon. member who is just speaking was reading from a written, previously prepared speech. I was not sustained in the point of order that I raised. I would quote Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, 1927 edition, at page 95, standing order number 41. Paragraph 293 reads:
i Mr. Cotnam.]
Besides the prohibitions contained in this standing order, it has been sanctioned by usage both in England and in Canada, that a member, while speaking must not-
And on the next page among other prohibitions it says:
-read from a written, previously prepared
speech.
I have observed the hon. gentleman in making his address has most of the time up to the present been using sheets of paper prepared previously to make his speech. I should like to have your ruling on my point of order.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: There cannot be any question as to the rule, which is well known and recognized by all hon. members. The hon. member who has just raised the point of order knows I was not in the house at the beginning of the address. I note the hon. member who has the floor has quoted a considerable number of figures and has been following his notes very closely. I call his attention to the rule which has been referred to by the hon. member who raises the point of order.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: I bow to your ruling, sir,
but may I say that as long as I have been in this house that rule has been honoured more in the breach than in the observance. From ninety to ninety-five per cent of the members read copiously from their notes on every occasion, and as this subject was a purely technical matter, non-controversial, dealing with something in regard to which I thought all the facts should be placed in their proper sequence on Hansard, I felt that I should be very careful in the facts and figures I gave to the house. Some hon. members opposite may not be as much concerned as I am about action being taken in this matter, and if so I am sorry for them; but to me it was a very serious matter to bring this resolution to the attention of the house and I felt that every possible consideration should be given to it in order that the facts should be accurately stated. I am sure the blind people of this country will appreciate the hon. gentleman's efforts on their behalf.
I feel that the passing of this resolution would help to bring a ray of sunshine into the lives of thousands of persons in this country who are deprived of their sight, many of whom have never been able to look upon the faces of their friends and families; who have never been privileged to see the beauty of the flowers or the babbling brooks or the majestic mountain peaks; who have never been able to see the marvels of a sunshine,

Pensions for the Blind
or the lights and shades of a sunset, or the poetry of the trees, or the grandeur of the sea and sky, and indeed, in many cases have been living in abject want and poverty.


Mr. MacLEAN:: The hon. gentleman was
just giving the cost. If that was put on record, it would be a good thing.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: Did I not complete that?


Alfred Edgar MacLean: No.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: An estimated pension of
$240 per annum would cost this country approximately $534,240 per annum, and from this amount certain deductions might be made by reason of partial earnings and family responsibility.
I cannot close this speech better than by quoting that immortal sonnet by Milton, On His Blindness:
When I consider how my light is spent.
Ere half my days, in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent, which is death to hide,
Lodg'd with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest he, returning, chide;
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask: But Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies, "God doth not need
Either man's work, or his own gifts; who best
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best: his state
Is kingly; thousands at his bidding speed,
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."
I commend the resolution to the favourable consideration of the house.


Mr. E. R. E. CHEVRIER (Ottawa):: Mr. Speaker, it is within a few minutes of six o'clock, therefore I shall be very brief. With what the hon. gentleman has said I am in full accord. I have had occasion lately to go rather deeply into this matter of the blind, and I sincerely hope that this resolution will carry and will subsequently be given effect to by an amendment to the Old Age Pensions Act. I do not think one needs to speak at any length to convince this house that something ought to be done for the relief of people who suffer this great affliction.


Mr. WILLIAM IRVINE (Wetaskiwin):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to express my appreciation to the hon. member (Mr. Cotnam) who brought this resolution before the house. Seeing that the time is almost up I shall not delay it going to a vote, and I hope it will be carried.


Hon. W. D. EULER (Waterloo):: Mr. Speaker, I have no desire to take up the time of the house and so prevent this resolution coming to a vote if it be necessary. Without having made any preparation whatsoever let me just say that I would like to support the hon. member who has introduced this resolution. It seems to me it goes without saying that anyone in this house or outside feels sympathy for people who are afflicted with blindness. The sense of sight is after all the primary one that human beings possess. Its absence certainly takes away most of the enjoyments that are available to human beings. Not only that but those who are deprived of the sense of sight are almost without exception, in spite of the examples given by the hon. member, under an extreme handicap in regard to earning their living.
I have every sympathy with the object of the resolution, and would only say that while I heard the statement that something like half a million dollars would be required as contribution from the treasury to pay pensions to blind people over forty years of age, I should think those who are less than that age are almost as much entitled to some pension as those over forty. I would like to ask the hon. member why he confines it to people over forty.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: That age was only set in a tentative way. It was felt that if the age should be lowered the increase in the cost of such legislation would be great, and also it was thought in some quarters that were a pension paid to the blind during the earlier years-


Edgar-Rodolphe-Eugène Chevrier: May I interrupt? There is no question,-


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Yes, this is quite out of order.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: I was only replying to the question of the hon. gentleman.


Mr. MANION:: With the consent of the house.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: With the consent of the house; there seemed to be a feeling in many quarters that if pensions for blind people under forty years of age were adopted it might tend to destroy their initiative.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words on this resolution, with which I am quite in accord. If it should come to a vote I would vote in favour of it. I was just going to put the same question as put by the hon. member for Waterloo (Mr. EuJer) re-
Adjournment-Decorum

garding the age limit. If I raised some objections in the course of the speech of the hon. gentleman it was not with the intention of delaying the proceedings or delaying the passing of this resolution. I did it because I thought it was my duty as a member to do so.


Mr. HEAPS:: Mr. Speaker-


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Mr. Speaker-


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Apparently there are
several hon. members who wish to speak on the motion, so we might as well call it six o'clock.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: T can say what I have to say in one minute. There is no time left to amplify my endorsement of this motion, but I wish to state that as mayor of Montreal I had many delegations coming to my office pressing for a measure of this kind. I have studied the matter and am quite willing to endorse the resolution. But I am not sure whether it would not be better to have separate legislation rather than link it with old age pensions. I take the motion to mean that provision similar to the old age pensions may be adopted for the blind. With that reservation I am in favour of the motion.



ADJOURNMENT-DECORUM

Pierre Édouard Blondin: With the indulgence of the house, there is a matter to which I would like to allude for a moment. At times of adjournment there has been a certain amount of confusion. I think we can avoid that if we observe paragraph 5 of standing order 12, which states that:
When the house adjourns the members shall keep their seats until Mr. Speaker has left the chair.
As a general rule at the close of the sitting the leader of the government announces the program for the next day, if he fails to do so the leader of the opposition generally endeavours to get that information by question and answer, and at that time there is usually a certain amount of confusion. I know that
all hon. members are anxious to hear what the leader of the government has to say. Therefore I suggest that we 'bear this rule in mind at adjournment time so that the house may adjourn without confusion and with dignity and decorum.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned without question put pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, January 31, 1935