[Stage Direction]
First report of the select standing committee on miscellaneous private bills-Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury).

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)
Questions

Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	What was the wharfage rate charged by the Department of Marine as top wharfage for lumber for export between May 1, 1933, and December 1, 1933, at the public wharf at Pugwash, Nova Scotia?
2.	What was the wharfage rate charged by the Department of Marine as top wharfage for lumber for export between May 1, 1933, and December 1, 1933, at the public wharf at Pictou, Nova Scotia?


Mr. DURANLEAU:: 1 and 2. Ten cents per 1,000 feet deal measure.


IMPORTS OF AUSTRALIAN AND NEW ZEALAND BUTTER
Mr. SEGUIN:: 1.	What quantity of butter from New Zealand entered Canada each year from 1930?
2.	What quantity of butter entered Canada each year since 1930, coming from Australia or any other country?


Mr. STEVENS:: 1. Canada's imports of butter (entered for consumption) from New Zealand for the
calendar year 1931,	1932 and 1933, were:
Years	Pounds
1931			 344,320
1932			 50,972
1933			 1,199,632
2. Canada's imports of butter (entered for consumption) from Australia or any other country, for the calendar years 1931, 1932 and 1933, were:
Imports from	1931 Pounds	1932 Pounds	1933 PoundsAustralia	2,264,696	160,632	Fiji	9,408	Newfoundland. . .	300	Syria	160	75United Kingdom.	181,594	12.008	170,464United States.. ..	20,839	12,533	6,966


FRUIT AND VEGETABLE INSPECTION
Mr. FRASER (Northumberland):: 1.	How many cars of apples were inspected by the fruit and vegetable inspectors of the Department of Agriculture in British Columbia, Ontario, Quebec. New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia, respectively, during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1933?
2.	What was the total amount of the inspection fees for apples collected in each province during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1933?
3.	How many inspection reports upon apples were issued free of charge during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1933?
4.	What was the total amount of the inspection fees for all fruits and vegetables collected by fruit and vegetable inspectors in each province during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1933?


Mr. WEIR (Melfort):: 1.
Cars
British Columbia	 5.258
Ontario	 1,936
Quebec	 109
New Brunswick	 260
Nova Scotia	 3,127
2.	Nil.
3.	570.
4.	Nil.


LIFE INSURANCE BUSINESS IN CANADA
Mr. COOTE:: 1.	What was the total amount of loans on
policies of life insurance companies operating in Canada on December 31st, during each of the last ten years?	_
2.	What ivas the total amount of policies lapsed in life insurance companies operating in Canada during each of the last ten years?
3.	What was the total amount paid to policy holders and beneficiaries in each of these years?
4.	What was the total amount of premiums paid by policy holders during each of these years?
5.	What were the number and value of
ordinary life insurance policies in force in Canada at the end of 1932, or any other available date, in each of the following groups: (a) under $1,001;	(b) $1,001 to $2,000;	(c)$2,001 to	$3,000;	(d)	$3,001	to	$4,000;	(e)$4,001 to	$5,000;	(f)	$5,001 to	$10,000;	(g)$10,001 to	$20,000;	(h)	$20,001	to	$30,000;	(i)$30,001 to	$40,000;	(j)	$40,001	to	$50,000;	(k)
$50,001 to $100,000; (1) $100,001 to $500,000; (m) $500,001 to $1,000,000; (n) over $1,000,000?


Mr. BENNETT:: With respect to these
questions it is obvious, since the decision of the privy council, that the dominion government is not in possession of all the information that has to do with the questions asked, as the provinces are solely in possession of information with respect to some companies issuing life insurance policies in Canada. Under these circumstances any answers given would be wholly inadequate and improper.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Questions dropped.



COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT

Mr. HURTUBISE:: 1.	On what date or dates w-as the Combines Investigation Act passed in Canada?
2.	In what year was same act declared intra vires by privy council?


Mr. GORDON:: 1.	Assented to June 13, 1923.
2.	January 29, 1931.


Mr. HURTUBISE:: 1.	From 1921 to 1925, inclusive, were there any firm or firms investigated' under the Combines Investigation Act?

Questions as Orders for Returns
2.	If so, how many firms were investigated and what was the name of each firm?
3.	Was there any fine imposed, what was the amount imposed on each firm and what amount was paid by each?
4.	Was there any firm dissolved after preliminary investigation, and if so, what was the name of such firm?


Mr. GORDON:: 1.	Yes, from 1923 to 1925.
2.	Three principal investigations: (a) distributors of fruits and vegetables in western Canada; (b) coal dealers at Winnipeg and other places in western Canada; (c) wholesale distributors of New Brunswick potatoes. Over 50 other cases dealt with.
3.	Western fruit combine case. Fines totalling $200,000 imposed and paid, in 1926, S25,000 on each of four companies and four individuals.
4.	No information.


Mr. HURTUBISE:: 1.	From 1926 to 1930, inclusive, was there any firm or firms investigated under the Combines Investigation Act?
2.	If so, how many firms were investigated and what was the name of each firm?
3.	Was there any fine imposed, what was the amount imposed on each firm, and what amount was paid by each?
4.	Was there any firm dissolved after preliminary investigation, and if so, what was the name of such firm?


Mr. GORDON:: 1.	Yes.	.
2.	Five principal investigations: (a) bread bakeries in Montreal; (b) distributors of fruit and vegetables produced in Ontario; (c) wholesale and retail druggists and manufacturers (Proprietary Articles Trade Association) ; (d) plumbing and heating contractors and others in Ontario (Amalgamated Builders' Council); (e) electrical contractors in Toronto (Electrical Estimators' Association). Over one hundred other cases dealt with.
3.	(a) Amalgamated Builders' Council- Fines totalling $45,200 imposed and paid in 1930 and 1931, as follows:
1 fine	of	$10,000	
$10,0001	fine	of	8,000	
8,0002	fines	of	4,000	
8,0001	fine	of	3,000	
3,0002	fines	of	2,000	
4,0009 fines	of	1,000	
9,0002 fines	of	800	
1,6001 fine	of	500	
50011 fines	of	100	
1,100Total	
S45,200
(b) Electrical Estimators' Association-fines totalling $26,200 imposed in January, 1932, as follows:
7	fines	of	$2,500	
$17,5008	fines	of	1,000	
8,0007 fines	of	100	
700Total	
$26,2004.	No information.


Mr. HURTUBISE:: 1.	During the years 1931, 1932, 1933, were there any firm or firms investigated under the Combines Investigation Act?
2.	If so, how many firms were investigated and what was the name of each firm?
3.	Was there any fine imposed, what was the amount imposed on each firm, and what amount was paid by each?
4.	Was there any firm dissolved after preliminary investigation, and if so, what was the name of such firm?


Mr. GORDON:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Six principal investigations: (a) breadbaking industry in Canada; (b) motion picture industry in Canada; (c) manufacturers of radio tubes and sets; (d) manufacturers of fruit and meat baskets, Ontario (Canadian Basket Pool); (e) Canadian tobacco manufacturers and other buyers of Ontario tobacco; (f) importers and distributors of British anthracite coal in Canada. Over one hundred other cases dealt with.
3.	(a) Canadian Basket Pool-fines totalling $1,500, $100 on each member, imposed and paid; (b) importers of British anthracite coal-fines totalling $30,000 imposed as follows:
2 fines	of	$7,000	
$14,0001	fine	of	6,000	
6,0002	fines	of	5,000	
10,000Total	
$30,000
Not paid pending result of appeal.
4.	No information.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


[Stage Direction]
Mr. ST-PERE:
1.	What are the names, date of appointment and rank of eligible list of clerks, grades I and II who have been appointed to the public service during the fiscal year ending March 31, 1933?
2.	Has the Civil Service Commission offered any successful candidate for grade II position the chance of accepting appointment in any grade I position?
Egg and Hog Grading
[Stage Direction]
3.	Is the order of merit and rank strictly followed by the Civil Service Commission in making appointments from the eligible lists available?

Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	How many deputy ministers, including persons with the rank of deputy minister, are there in the public service of Canada?
2. How many deputy ministers have been retired since August 7, 1930?
3. How many deputy ministers have died since August 7, 1930?
4.	What is the total amount paid annually,
or to be paid on termination of retiring leave, as annuities to deputy ministers retired since August 7, 1930?	.
5.	What are the total annual salaries, including deductions, paid to the deputy ministers appointed to replace those retired since August 7, 1930?


EGG AND HOG GRADING ACTS
Mr. F. H. PICKEL (Brome Missisquoi) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the Egg and Hog Grading Acts should be amended.
He said: In bringing this resolution before the house I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not averse to the grading of farm produce provided the farmer is not exploited in the operation. If the farmer is properly safeguarded I am decidedly in favour of the grading of farm produce, with the idea of improving the quality. The farmer does not desire to have impossible regulations and restrictions imposed against the middleman who undoubtedly plays a very important role in the economic life of the farmer.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Order.


Follin Horace Pickel: I agree that he is justly entitled to reasonable remuneration for his services so performed.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: It is desirable that hon. members preserve better order. When one conversation is going on it is bad enough but with fifty ft is difficult for the member speaking to make himself heard.


Follin Horace Pickel: It would be almost impossible, Mr. Speaker, for the farmer to-day to make the necessary contact with the consumer to dispose of his goods if it were not for the intervention of the middleman. But I do not think it is necessary that the middleman should make a fortune in a year or two while the farmer is forced to a lifelong struggle for a mere existence. This pathetic and unbearable plight of the farmer did not spring up overnight, it has been coming on for a long time-for many years. Much time

has been occupied in this chamber in discussing this problem of the betterment of the farmers' position. Much valuable time has been lost in the futile debates that have taken place here simply because hon. members did not and do not realize or fully appreciate the grievous burdens under which the farmer is compelled to labour. Apparently many hon. members consider that if the agriculture estimates are increased continuously and consistently from year to year, that is about all that can be done for the farmers. This attitude of mind was well evidenced in the speech delivered by the hon. member for St. Johns-Iberville (Mr. Rheaume) on the debate on the address. The farmer need not expect much assistance from members of his mentality. In. the case of this hon. gentleman, however, nothing much else could be expected because he is a distributor, and later I will have more to say about that phase of the question. Much can be done by this government to assist the farmer and enable him to get back on the road to prosperity, without the expenditure of a great deal of money. Legislation could be and should be enacted at once to regulate the orderly marketing of the products of the farm.
It is not my intention, sir, to criticize the intricate framework of these two grading acts, but I should like to point out to the house some methods by which the products of the farmers are put right into the hands of the packers and commission men. Let us take first the Hog Grading Act and look at its inner workings. The hog grader is a government employee, but he never comes in contact with the producer. He lives with the packer; they are bosom friends; they are pals, and he is going to do anything he can to help his pal. The hogs are sent to a central point for grading, where they are looked after and graded and where the price is set by people whose object is to make the price and grade just as low as possible. I should like to cite one or two instances to indicate the hardships that have been worked on our farmers, and I could mention scores of Cases of this kind. In one of the best swine counties in this dominion, where they have spent a good deal of time and money on their stock, from 1922 to May 1, 1932, one dealer averaged one or two carloads a week; probably over the whole period he would have shipped between 12,000 and 15,000 hogs. Out of that number he had two selects. Another dealer took in a load of about 45 hogs to Montreal. He took them to the abattoir, and one of the graders who came around stepped in amongst the hogis and

Egg and Hog Grading
said, "You have two selects." This gentleman replied, " I think we had better put these into a pen here and wire Ottawa to have someone come and grade them. I have been a swine judge at a number of fairs in the province of Quebec for a good many years and I know a great deal more about hog grading than you will ever know." They became rather hot under the collar and argued for a while; finally they cooled down, and then this same grader gave him 37 selects out of the lot instead of 2.
The Egg Grading Act is worse than the Hog Grading Act. The egg grader is not even a government employee; he is a little two-by-four clerk in the employ of the commission house, and naturally he is going to do all he can to help the commission men. I could give the details in scores of cases where the egg producers throughout the eastern townships have been exploited in the shipping of eggs to Montreal. The condition has become so bad that the small dealer in the country will not buy ungraded eggs because every time he sends a crate of eggs to Montreal he loses. As a result the farmer is penalized; when he does take his eggs to the grocery store to exchange for goods or cash he receives a very small price because the shipper cannot afford to pay him more and take a chance on the grading in Montreal.
I should like to cite two instances with regard to the grade of eggs which were shipped to Montreal. One crate of select eggs was picked up in the morning and reached the Montreal market at noon. In two or three days the producer received a letter from the commission house giving the grade of the crate; there were two dozen selects, two dozen first, and the remainder were mostly seconds, cracked, rotten and so on. Two or three days later he picked up another crate of specially small eggs; there was not an egg in the crate that would grade over a pullet's egg. In two or three days he received a return showing that the grading was just as good as it was on the case of selects. This demonstrates that they do not look at the egigs at all; they just guess at them. I think they have a blank grading which they send out to the farmer, and they are stealing fifty per cent of his eggs all the time.
I have a particular case in point. On June 6 last we telephoned to a packing house in Montreal for a crate of select eggs. They were sent over, and I have here the tag which was attached to the crate. They were tagged, according to law, with letters an inch high, and we paid $6 for the crate of thirty dozen eggs, at the rate of 20 cents a dozen.
That crate of eggs was shipped out by express to the eastern townships; it was repacked into another crate in the presence of witnesses and shipped back within twenty-four hours to the same packing company for sale. Here is the result: We paid S6 for the crate. It was returned to the same packing house within twenty-four hours and the return we got from it was $3.20. We had extras, 872 dozen at 15 cents; first, 13 dozen at 12 cents; seconds, 6 dozen at 10 cents, and cracked, 19 at 9 cents, I want to say right here that when the crate reached its destination in the eastern townships there was not a cracked egg in it, but when those eggs reached Montreal there were 19 cracked and 4 rotten. That is the kind of grading we have to put up with. I have all the evidence before me to prove what I have said, including express bills and all other documents.
As I stated before, it is not the object of the farmers to have impossible regulations imposed against the consumers, but we have to have some method by which the farmer will be assured of a just return for his goods. As conditions exist to-day I say that neither hog grading nor egg grading is satisfactory. The department states that it is doing good work, and that the consumption of eggs is increasing. I say, however, that the farmer is paying for it. He is giving his eggs away. Perhaps by making a gift of them consumption may increase, but that is not what he is farming for. He must make a living on his farm and under present conditions he cannot do it.
I therefore move, seconded by Mr. Tummon, that this matter be referred to the committee on agriculture, or a special committee, or, if it has time, the committee investigating price spreads and mass buying which is now sitting. This matter could be considered and grading regulations could be adjusted. I contend that a small good egg is just as good as a large good egg. There should be two grades, good eggs and bad eggs. Further, in my view the proper way to sell eggs is by the pound, just the same as you would sell hogs or sheep. I believe I have outlined the only logical way for the marketing of eggs.


Mr. PAUL MERCIER (St. Henri):: Mr. Speaker, I have listened with a great deal of interest to the speech delivered by the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Pickel) on hog grading and egg grading. Last year he came along with a motion about milk, stating that the farmer was not receiving enough for that commodity and that the consumer in the city was paying too much. The matter was referred to the committee on agriculture and a report made. No legislation, however, was
Egg and Hog Grading

passed, the matter was simply referred back to the provinces, especially the province of Quebec.
To-day the hon. member offers a motion with regard to hog and egg grading, and asks to have it accepted by the farmers in this house. My recollection is that a few years ago Sir George Foster brought before the House of Commons a measure to have eggs sold by the pound. After discussion by members then sitting in the house the suggestion was considered -unsatisfactory and was withdrawn. I must say that I see a difference between a small egg and a large egg. I do not think a consumer would pay as much for a dozen small pullet eggs as he would for the larger ones. When we go to buy eggs in the Montreal markets we find that there is a difference in the prices of eggs, small and large. The purse of the consumer also must be graded. If the Montreal consumer, paying forty cents for a dozen eggs, received four big eggs and eight small ones, he would be the subject of exploitation. On the other hand we do not want to exploit the farmer. We must remember that the consumers in the city like to get what they pay for, especially the working men in the labouring districts.
The hon. member said there should be a difference between the price paid for bad eggs and that paid for good ones. That is a reasonable and normal proposition. Certainly no one has a right to sell bad eggs on the market. The hon. member has told about shipping eggs to the city of Montreal. He said that four bad eggs were found in a crate shipped to the eastern townships and then immediately shipped back to Montreal. I do not think the fault could be traced to the egg dealer in Montreal or to the wholesale merchant. I believe it was only an accident. The hon. member cannot get away from the fact that the crate came from the country to Montreal. The four eggs were put in the crate before they were returned to the hon. member's district, and I believe it was just a case of error. One cannot draw a general conclusion from such circumstances.
The remarks of my hon. friend bring to my mind another point. When last year he spoke about milk, and again to-day about hogs and eggs, he said that the farmer is not satisfied, nor is he himself satisfied with the government's present agricultural measures. Why is he not satisfied? I must remind the hon. member that the administration is in the hands of the party to which he belongs; he is friendly to the government now in power. Why has he not asked before, and why does he

not ask immediately for some redress for the grievances about which he has spoken? Today he suggests that the question of hog grading and egg grading be submitted to the committee on agriculture. In my view the result would be the same as it was last year in connection with milk and milk products, namely lots of noise and plenty of soap box speeches, but no action or results for the farmers.


Mr. J. T. HACKETT (Stanstead):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a word in support of the resolution of the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Pickel). I believe that these regulations are so complicated- and I am now speaking particularly of those concerning poultry and eggs-as to make them unworkable. It is impossible for the ordinary farmer to grade his own produce, with the result that he must ship it to town and take the returns which come to him, without any possibility of verification or checking. I do not suggest that all packers and all middlemen are unjust and unfair, but it has come to my knowledge, and an instance has been given to-day by the hon. member introducing the resolution, that unfair practices are sometimes indulged in by the middleman. We do know that the producer is receiving a price for his commodities which, when compared with the prices paid in the cities for those commodities, is altogether too low. It occurs to me that it would be well to have these regulations inquired into and thoroughly revised. I know, for instance, that a club just outside of Montreal began buying its eggs from a producer, and it immediately came into conflict with these regulations because the producer was unable to give the certificate, which can emanate only from a licensed dealer. As the producer, the small producer at all events, can never qualify for the licence, he is not permitted to deal in these commodities, in a way that is profitable to himself. It might be that a produce exchange in the large centres which would provide for the carrying out of this inspection and the application of the act under the joint auspices of the producer, the middleman and the consumer would remedy the ills of which the farmer so justifiably, in my estimation, complains.
I think there are too many classes and kinds of poultry and eggs. I have, for instance, before me the regulations, and I find that ducks for purposes of marketing are divided into ducks and ducklings. A duckling reaches maturity eleven or twelve weeks after hatching, yet under the grading act a duck which is much older than that may be classi-

Egg and Hog Grading
fied as a duckling, and the producer who sends a duckling to a foreign market is obliged sometimes to certify that the duckling is not a duckling, although it is in fact a duckling within the meaning of the regulation. This is merely an instance of the inadequacy of the regulations. I have much pleasure in supporting the resolution of the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Pickel) asking that the regulations be reviewed and revised by the committee on agriculture.


Mr. H. A. MULLINS (Marquette):: Mr. Speaker, I have not taken up very much of the time of the house this session, but I feel that the farmers of my constituency are being very unfairly treated in this matter of grading. The resolution seeks to amend the act. I would say, do away with the hog grading act altogether. It is vicious, it is unnecessary, it is absolutely against the farming interests of the country. It is in favour of the packer and not in favour of the agriculturist.
We have throughout Canada a number of hog graders. To my mind that service is an absolute waste of money. Let these agricultural students go back to the land and make money in other ways than by grading hogs for the farmer in the stockyards for the benefit of the packing industry. The total amount of money paid out for hog grading in 1933, according to the information I have received from the Department of Agriculture, was $43,540. If you would turn that money over to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Weir), and I say this advisedly, to be used in putting out pure bred animals for the farmer, instead of wasting it on these chaps who are absolutely useless in any stockyard, you would be doing more good for the country. Is it not an insult to the farmers of western Canada to say that they do not know the type of hog that is demanded in the British market? The farmer knows better than these hog graders just what is wanted. I had occasion at one time to come from western Canada with four thousand hogs, when hog grading first started, and I have never touched a hog since because all the profit I got out of those four thousand hogs after they graded them in the city of Toronto was S47. I have never bothered with the hog industry since.
If hog grading in the early days did serve a purpose in teaching the farmer what type of hog was wanted for the British market, it is absolutely not needed now because the farmer knows thoroughly the type of hog that is being asked for.
Take the farmer's hog in the stockyard. The hog is put through three or four grades, and
if you follow those hogs on to the rails in the packing plants you will find that a good many of them are converted into Wiltshire sides and are going over to the old country market. So the farmer is the loser. It is the farmer who is suffering, and instead of asking, as this resolution does, that the act be amended I would say that it be wiped out altogether in the interests of agriculture. When I say that, I am not speaking without experience; for fifty years of my life have been spent on the stockyards in Canada. I have watched this business of hog grading going on. Now that I represent an agricultural district in this house I am speaking on behalf of my farmer constituents when I ask the Minister of Agriculture to wipe this hog grading off the books altogether and give the farmers in western Canada a chance.
Mr. A. E. MacLEA.N (Prince): I do not know whether I caught correctly the remarks of the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Pickel) but I understood him to say that the egg inspectors were not in the employ of the government but in the employ of the commission houses. My hon. friend nods his head and says that that is correct. If that is the case, I think we should have an explanation from the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Weir) because I am of the opinion that there are egg graders who are employed by the Department of Agriculture under the regulations of the Dominion government. If that is not so, we are sadly astray in our view of the situation.
I am not opposed to the grading of agricultural products, but I do know that there is some dissatisfaction regarding the egg grading regulations. I do not say that these regulations are not perhaps in the interest of the farmer himself, and undoubtedly they are a great protection to the consumer; but still there seems to be some difficulty over the country storekeeper who takes in eggs and reships them to an egg grading plant in one of the larger centres.
If the Minister of Agriculture speaks to-day I should be glad to have him clear up that point as to whether or not the inspectors are in the employ of the government.


Hon. ROBERT WEIR (Minister of Agriculture) :: Mr. Speaker, at the outset I should
like most emphatically to deny the allegations made by the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Pickel) that the men engaged in hog grading at the different live stock yards throughout the country are bosom friends of the packers, that they are in league with the packers and are working directly against the farmer. I do not think that any

Egg and Hog Grading

hon. member of this house, no matter where he sits, can afford to make a statement like that without submitting at least some evidence as a basis for his statement.


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: Hear, hear.


Robert Weir: I am not speaking of hog graders simply as Minister of Agriculture for the dominion but as a farmer myself in Saskatchewan, and I want to say that I have never found anyone more anxious to help the farmer in improving the quality of his hogs, in getting better production stock, in the feeding of the stock, and so directing the farmer that with an intelligent operation of his hog industry he can obtain a higher percentage of selects or bacon hogs, and in that way get a greater return from them, than the hog graders in this country. The hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Mullins) has stated that these men would be better engaged if they assisted in the improving of the hog industry. The fact is that that is what they are doing. They are not being paid only for grading hogs, they act as field men. They give a good deal of their time to the working out of our hog policies. I do not intend to take any time in discussing this phase.
As a farmer, I cannot speak too strongly in favour of the work these men are doing. The cost is less than one one-hundredth of a cent per pound; it is in the neighbourhood of two cents per hog. At the present time we do not believe that the grading regulations or the carrying out of those regulations are all that they should be. A continual study is being made of these matters but the fact is that a system of hog grading was asked for by the producers, not by the packers or by the government. It was only after it was felt that there was a very strong demand for such a system that steps were taken to work one out. At the risk of being misunderstood, I think it can be said that the present system of grading is not of such a character that it can be told from a live hog whether that hog will make a Wiltshire side. All that can be done is to arrive at some idea of the conformation of the hog and whether it will be finished properly when processed. We have always felt that there is a good deal of dissatisfaction with the system, but it has been carried on more as promotion work than with the idea of stating whether or not a hog will make a proper side. We cannot tell simply by looking at a hog just what the finish will be or the amount of lean and fat there will be in the side after killing. The only way this can be done is by grading on the rail.
	.
Hon. members opposite have advocated that a change should be made to grading on the rail. Conferences have been held, both during the tenure of the previous government and our own, between producers, packers and the departmental officials. An attempt has been made to find out how these difficulties can be overcome. One of the greatest difficulties in grading on the rail is identification. Hogs are shipped in carload lots from Edmonton in Alberta, say, to Moncton in New Brunswick. If these were graded on the rail the farmer would have to wait until they were slaughtered and graded before receiving his settlement. The great difficulty has been to work out a proper means of identification. This is more difficult in Canada than it is in Denmark where they have mostly cooperative plants drawing hogs from small areas. Different methods of tattooing have been tried out but they were not found to be altogether successful. Different tags have been tried as well, as this is the method of identification used in Denmark and Sweden. It is now believed that if some changes were made in the machinery of the packing plants a method of identification could be worked out. The present machines take off many of the tags along with the hair and we feel that with some slight changes being made we can work out a proper method of identification. Within the last three years hundreds of thousands of hogs have been tested on the rail as an experiment. We feel that this is the only absolute test of the value of a hog. Under the proposed regulations it is possible for a farmer to enter into a written agreement with certain packing plants to have his hogs tested on the rail by government officials. It is difficult to say what has been the value in dollars and cents in the past of these grading regulations, but I believe it has been considerable. I was in Winnipeg in January and met live stock commission men from Winnipeg, Montreal, Toronto and various other places in Canada. I have heard some drovers and some hon. members, both inside and out of the house, raise objections to hog grading. It has been stated that money was being taken away from the farmers. I put this question to these live stock commission men from all over Canada: Do you think you get more money for the hogs sold in any one year when they are graded than you do when they are not graded? The answers I received were two nays and five yeas. One of the nays came from a commission firm in Montreal.
In this connection I might state that Montreal is one of the places where grading has not met with favour and over a number of

Egg and Hog Grading
years the quality of hogs handled in Montreal has declined more than any other place in Canada. The prices received have also declined. We have found that in those places where grading has been effective there is a steady increase in production and quality. The farmers in these places are not the kind who are in and out; they continue to produce more hogs at a uniform rate.


Mr. DUPUIS:: Are there any officials of
the Department of Agriculture available to the farmers in the district of Montreal to give help in the classifying and raising of hogs?


Robert Weir: There are hog
graders in Montreal who grade and will give assistance on request.


Vincent Dupuis: Is that only in the city of Montreal? I do not understand that they raise hogs in Montreal.


Robert Weir: Hogs coming into Montreal.


Vincent Dupuis: Are those men at the disposal of the farmers?


Robert Weir: Yes. Hogs come into Montreal from eastern Ontario, Quebec and from western Canada as well.
I think there is a misunderstanding between the hon. member for Prince (Mr. MacLean) and' the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Pickel) in connection with egg grading. The great proportion of egg grading is not done by government officials; it is done by the merchants who buy and ship the eggs. We have in our employ only forty-one egg graders and it would take a large army of graders to grade all the eggs delivered by farmers to the different stores throughout the country. These egg graders check up the grading of the storekeeper. It must be evident to hon. members that in the very nature of the work of these men they can deal with only a few storekeepers. We realize that the regulations have been evaded but when our graders find that the grading is out of line, steps are taken to check up the merchants and ensure that right grading is undertaken. A number of conferences have been held in an effort to improve our egg grading regulations. Personally I have been of the opinion that there were too many grades. We had specials, extras, firsts, seconds, fresh, storage, and so on. We had a conference with our egg graders, produce merchants, producers and some members of parliament, and went into the whole question. I felt that if we called one class of eggs firsts there should be none higher than that. It was decided to drop "firsts," "extras" and all that nomenclature
74726-80*
in grading, and to draw up new regulations for ,the grading of eggs, A, B and C. Perhaps the hon. member who spoke first is not aware that eggs are now graded according to weight, because it does seem the only fair *way to grade them.
I have before me a number of letters of approval with regard to the way in which the new grading regulations are working out, but I can assure hon. members that if the subject is referred to the committee on agriculture, no one will welcome more than I any suggestions that can be offered to the officials of the department or myself looking in any way to an improvement in the grading of eggs or hogs.


Mr. MARTIAL RHEAUME (St. John-Iberville) (Translation) :: Mr. Speaker, I was not in the house when the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Pickel) discussed his resolution that in the opinion of the house, the Egg and Hog Grading Act should be amended.
I am fairly well acquainted with the question of hog grading on the Montreal market. As to egg grading I am not qualified to discuss the question. The grading of hogs is very important, however, it would be more important for the government to take the necessary steps-not similar to those taken after the coal investigation-so as to protect the farmers on the Montreal market or throughout the dominion. The house is aware that farmers are at the mercy of a trust, perhaps more powerful than the coal trust. There is in Montreal a company known as the Canada Packers Limited which controls the hog market. Others such as William Davies, Canadian Packing, Harris Abattoirs, Gunn-Langlois and Gunn Limited are controlled by the Canada Packers which entirely controls the Montreal market. Mention must be made that the Montreal Abattoirs is also known as the Wilsills; however, the latter is far from having the importance which Canada Packers has.
The farmer as well as the dealer who wish to ship hogs, sheep or beef to the Montreal market, are at the mercy of these two powerful companies; of those who require a commission of 5 or 10 per cent.
I have just heard the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. WTeir) state that an inspector is placed at the disposal of farmers to grade or select the hogs shipped to the Montreal market; this means that the farmers receive
SI.00	more per head. I have here the "Journal d'Agriculture," dated March 3. One notes, for instance:
Bacon hog (select), 180 to 220 pounds, S10.
Bonus, SI.
Bacon hog, $10.
125S

Egg and Hog Grading
But no bonus for the latter. I wonder why a grade of hogs is given a bonus when the other, hogs of the same weight, is not. One contends that it is for the finishing. I am well acquainted with the subject and I state that on 25,' 40. 50 or 100 head, you will not find 10 animals which are finished the same way. Whether it be a steer, lamb or hog, I do not think it possible to add to the animal half an inch of fat or remove one quarter of an inch; that cannot be done. With this humbug known as select, if you have 100 head, there will not be 10 which will receive a bonus of S1-0O. The majority of salesmen on the Montreal market are dealers who travel through the rural sections, make their purchases from the farmers, load their trucks and ship to the Montreal market. At all events, I state that these dealers are at the mercy of trusts.
What the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Mullins) stated, just now, was the truth, speaking of his trip to Toronto; he had brought there 4,000 hogs and returned home with a profit of about S40. I also know some who came to Montreal with as many head and made very little profit.
Another item:
Hogs ready for market 100 to 230 lbs. $10.
Light hogs and to fatten 120 to 160 lbs. $10, a cut of 25 to 50 for 100 lbs.
Heavy hogs, 240 to 270 lbs., $10, cut of J cent per lb.
This means that when the dealer or farmer arrives on the Montreal market and a purchaser appears, he is told that the animals are graded and that lowers the price. If a dealer sells 100, 200 or 300 pounds of fresh roast pork at 15 cents per pound, he makes no mention whether the hogs weighed 120, 140 or 180 pounds, he sells it at the same price. The dealer pays the farmer according to the price he receives himself, and the price is set by the trusts.
The same may be said about eggs which are also graded. The farmers refuse to ship eggs to the Montreal market, because they inform us that when they do so, the report they receive, after grading, show that 95 per cent of their eggs are graded as third class.
I think, sir, that it would be desirable that a thorough investigation be held so as to expose these trusts which exploit the farmers. There are companies which make enormous profits at the farmers expense, just as there are coal companies which exploit the consumers in Quebec.
Take, for instance, lambs. A large number are brought to the Montreal market at the end of September or in October. The majority of these lambs are males, immediately a reduction of 1 to 2 cents per pound is made on
[Mr. Rheaume.l
the price compared with the price paid for females. These lambs are slaughtered and placed in cold storage. The price paid is 4 cents per pound and with the overhead charges the cost amounts to 9 cents per pound, yet in winter these lambs are sold at 14i cents per pound. They are the same lambs, mostly males, which are sold at your dealer. There is no grading when they are resold, the grading is only when they are purchased.
It is seldom that a dealer or farmer goes to the Montreal market with any merchandise and that the latter is graded as first quality.
The same applies to calves purchased wholesale and for which the same price is paid. When slaughtered the trusts sell them at various prices according to whether they weigh 60 to 65 pounds or 80 to 90 pounds, etc. The grading is the cause of the spread of prices. I do not find fault, it is their business. Nevertheless, I think that the dealers who purchase these animals from the farmers should be dealt with fairly, because, as I stated just now, the dealers pay the farmers according to the prices they receive on the Montreal market. I am not acquainted with the Toronto market, however, according to what I have heard, the same conditions prevail there, for I think the Canada Packers have their headquarters in Toronto and branches throughout the country which exploit the farmers, just as in Quebec. I agree with the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi. If the government investigated the facts which I have submitted to them and which are my personal observation, I think it would prove very helpful to the farming class. The government contends that they are always willing to do all they possibly can for this deserving farming class, but once in office this good will is forgotten.
I state that the Canada Packers and other establishments of the kind in Montreal and Toronto should be dealt with like the coal companies of Montreal.


Mr. J. L. BROWN (Lisgar):: I regret that I was not in the house when this discussion began. I only came in when the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Weir) was, I presume, about halfway through his speech. I think in this matter I agree heartily with the Minister of Agriculture. It has been a matter of regret to me that during this parliament there have been attacks made on the grading system as applied to farm products, and the hon. member who sponsored this resolution seems to have been one of the leaders in making those attacks. When we come to deal with the dairy item in the estimates I propose to put on record some facts showing the effect the grading system has had on cream production

Egg and Hog Grading
in the province of Manitoba. The high standing Manitoba now occupies in connection with dairy products is due largely, I believe, to that grading system.
However, at the moment we are dealing with the grading of eggs and hogs. The resolution is very indefinite; it simply says that the Egg and Hog Grading Acts should be amended. I do not suppose anyone will contend that the grading of hogs is by any means one hundred per cent perfect. I think we can well admit that it is not and that when grading on the rail becomes practicable it will be better than the present system. I was interested in the statement of the Minister of Agriculture that he thinks they are now reaching some system of grading on the rail that will be satisfactory; I hope that may be the case. Any person who has given any consideration to the matter will, I believe, recognize that the difficulties of grading on the rail in a country like Canada are enormously greater than in such a country as Denmark where hogs are packed within a few miles of the place where they are raised. However, I do believe that though as I say the grading system as applied to hogs is not one hundred per cent perfect, yet there has been great improvement in the quality of hogs because of the grading system. I think the Minister of Agriculture will agree with that, as well as the former Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell). In the early days of hog grading considerable objection was raised on the part of the producers, but in my judgment and as far as my observation goes in my own community, these objections have long since disappeared. Producers generally, I believe, are satisfied that the quality of the product has been improved and that, while mistakes may be made at times, and it may not be possible for a hog grader to do his grading with perfect accuracy, generally speaking not only has there been an increased percentage of select bacon hogs but the whole level of hog products has been raised. In my opinion it would be a great mistake to go back to the old system because if we are to take advantage of the splendid opportunities open to us in the English market it can only be by maintaining a high quality of product. I hope nothing will be done that will tend to lessen the standard or take away from farmers the inducement to raise a high quality produce. Therefore not only by reason of this discussion but from what I have heard the Minister of Agriculture say on former occasions, I am likely to be in close agreement with him on this matter.


William Richard Motherwell: Now that the principle of grading all farm products has run the gauntlet of successive governments I think we can take it that grading has come to stay. In 1922 only one farm product that I know of was sold on the basis of grade, that was grain. Since then successive governments have extended the grading policy, until now practically every exportable article, at all events, goes forward to the markets of the world on the basis of grade, that being the only way to get the best market and to encourage quality. I have to commend the Minister of Agriculture for talcing the stand he has taken to-day; it is exactly what I would hope he would do, and what I hope successive governments will do. To go back now to the old haphazard way of selling eggs as eggs and pigs as pigs would be a terribly retrograde movement, particularly as we are now looking more and more to the British market as the chief market for our farm products. As the house knows, the British government passed in 1931 the Farm Marketing Act, the purpose of which is standardization of farm products, and also to provide for the marketing of the same. Newspaper reports indicate that this government is contemplating bringing down a similar act, to provide for the marketing of farm products in Canada on the basis of grade. I look forward to such legislation with pleasure. I really cannot understand why my Iron, friend from Marquette (Mr. Mullins), a gentleman who has spent his life among live stock, should speak depreeat-ingly of the principle of grading. I sympathize in a measure with the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Pickel); no doubt he feels impelled to take the stand he has taken, not an unreasonable stand; he is asking only for amendment and amendments are always in order. I have no doubt that some of his constituents have not yet grasped the idea on which grading is based, which is, not to make government positions, not to worry the farmers, but to encourage them to produce quality products by paying for them on the basis of grade and quality. The principle is so preeminently sound that I cannot conceive of it being abandoned and the old order restored.
With regard to grading hogs on the rail, I think that is good, although it can only be carried out in the larger centres. In small countries like Denmark it is all done that way as far as I know. Most of the hogs are delivered to the abattoirs in trucks, slaughtered immediately, and are on the rail before the farmer has got his chores done
Egg and Hog Grading

around town and wants to go home. He gets his grade before he goes, so it is quite practical there and I think it is a good policy to aim at here; it is the correct policy wherever the country lends itself to it. I am glad to see that the department has adopted that policy, and probably it will be extended as time goes on, as that was the original intention.
The question of the grading of eggs always has been a knotty problem in this house. Eggs are amongst the most difficult farm products to grade, because the quality will not stay put very long. If eggs are exposed to high temperatures, for instance, of course the quality will depreciate, and the original grader has to allow for a little deterioration which must take place in the time which elapses before the eggs reach the ultimate consumer. The new regulations which were put into force last November, I think, have simplified the grades and made them more understandable to the purchasing public. I think that is an improvement, and it is what we expect. All legislation, all regulation and all progress is based upon the experiences of the past and there is no system of doing anything that is not capable of improvement as time warrants it. I can assure the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi that I shall be delighted to do anything I can to improve the grading of hogs, eggs or any other commodity. I notice on the order paper a fruit act which carries out the same principle, and while this looks pretty drastic on the surface I think it is all right.
I wish to assure the minister-and this is chiefly what I rose to say-that I am only too glad to be able to lend my support at this time. When I took charge of the Department of Agriculture my predecessor often gave me the benefit of his experience and his support at times when I needed it, and similarly I hope to be helpful to my hon. friend because I know what it is to have to stand up not only against one's own colleagues but also against the great body of members coming from rural districts who become irritated with every little restraint that is put on them and that they do not understand. They come back to the minister and say, "Why do you want to be worrying about these things? Let matters stand as they are. This is pure theory, it is claimed, and merely irritates the worried and already overburdened producer." But I find that if we persist in these matters and be frank with the producer, eventually the principle is accepted; then the details are improved upon and finally the whole country wonders why the plan of 
grading was not adopted long before. Just at this time, when we are looking to the British market, we should go forward and not backward, on quality, quantity and continuity, and that is why I rose to extend to the minister my support in his endeavour to improve matters in this respect.


Mr. W. J. LOUCKS (Rose town):: I do
not propose to take up very much of the time of the house, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure I would be the last to oppose either the hog grading or the egg grading act. As the ex-Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) has already intimated, however, there is a feeling throughout the country that justice is not being meted out, particularly in connection with egg grading, and I think there is room for improvement, because at the present time the producers are pretty well at the mercy of the retailers with regard to the grade of their eggs. If something could be done to improve that condition I think it would be appreciated throughout the country. The ex-Minister of Agriculture also said that this is one of the most difficult problems with which we have to contend, and I quite agree with that statement. As the hon. gentleman said, the fact that they do not stay put very long with regard to quality increases the difficulty of properly grading them.
It was a pleasure to me to see the agreement to-day between the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Weir) and the ex-Minister of Agriculture in connection with the grading of hogs and eggs, and I think this would be an opportune time to place this matter before the agriculture committee. I always feel that nothing is so good that it cannot be improved and perhaps, if we send these acts to the agriculture committee for further discussion, we may find that there is room for improvement here as well. If we cannot improve them, well and good, but if we can improve them I am sure it will be appreciated throughout the dominion.


Mr. GROTE STIRLING (Yale):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Pickel) is to be congratulated for having brought this matter to the attention of the house. I think enough has been said during the course of the debate to show that there is some misunderstanding with regard to grading and that there is a difference of opinion as to what is done and how it is done. I think it very desirable that the question should be further ventilated, and the right way to do that is to send it to the agriculture committee. I therefore beg to move:

Importation of Fuel
That all the words after the word "that" be struck out and the following substituted therefor:
the question of amending the egg and hog grading acts be referred to the select standing committee on agriculture and colonization.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Motion as amended agreed to.

Mr. HERMAS DESLAURIERS (St. Mary) moved:: Whereas, the federal government contributes its share in its allowances to the unemployed;
And whereas, the coal business as carried on in Canada should be altered;
Therefore, this house is of the opinion that, in the public interest the federal government should appoint a commission in order to control the importation of all fuels in Canada.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I am afraid this motion is not in order at the present time; it deals with a matter awaiting the adjudication of a court of law, and should not be brought forward in debate. I have observed by the press that the matter sought to be dealt with in this resolution is now the subject of litigation, and therefore it is not open to the house to discuss it at this time.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: Has your ruling been
given, sir, or may we speak to the point?


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I shall be glad to hear
any remarks on the question of order. In my opinion the motion is not in order and is not open for discussion, but if any hon. member wishes to address the Chair I shall be glad to hear what he has to say.


Ernest Lapointe: I submit, Mr. Speaker, that this resolution could be discussed without reference to what Your Honour has in mind with regard to a certain case which is actually before a court of law. That matter is absolutely independent from these proceedings; there are other companies importing coal apart from those the activities of which have been reviewed by the courts. I quite realize that if anything is said by the hon. member for St. Mary with reference to what is actually before the court he would be liable to be called to order, but until he does say something of the kind I do not see that he is out of order in bringing this matter before parliament.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: The article reads as
follows:
Appeals of five coal companies from convictions and fines totalling $30,000 on charges of
forming a combine will be heard at the next sitting of the court of appeals. Postponement was granted at the request of defence counsel when the cases were called to-day.
The companies are the two Canadian import companies, two F. P. Weaver companies and the British Coal Corporation. They were charged with forming a combine in restraint of trade against the interests of the public.
The resolution reads;
Whereas, the federal government contributes its share in its allowances to the unemployed;
And whereas, the coal business as carried on in Canada should be altered;
Therefore, this house is of the opinion that, in the public interest the federal government should appoint a commission in order to control the importation of all fuels in Canada.
Surely a discussion of that resolution would be within the rule prohibiting the discussion of matters awaiting adjudication in the courts.


Hon. HUGH GUTHRIE (Minister of Justice):: I think perhaps your ruling is a little broad, Mr. Speaker. I am inclined to agree with the view expressed by the hon. member for Quebec East (Mr. Lapoinite). So long as the debate contains no criticism of the matter before the courts, and does not involve a discussion of the cases being considered, I do not think it should be excluded in this House of Commons. The particular cases which you have mentioned to the house as having been noted in a newspaper dispatch do not involve the whole question of the importation of coal into Canada, but only, I believe, the importation of British coal; outside of that there could be consideration of importations from the United States, Russia and other countries. I think that so long as the discussion does not in any way involve matters actually before the courts it cannot be out of order. However, if in the course of debate such a discussion is entered upon by any hon. member I believe Your Honour should intervene and call the member who transgressed to order.


Mr. CHEVRIER:: On the point of order, may I say that there is a rule determining to what extent a press dispatch or clipping may be used in this House of Commons. To what extent is the house seized of the fact that the matter is sub judice when we have, for the moment, no other knowledge than that which is contained in a press notice? I make this submission for Your Honour's consideration.


John Thomas Hackett: It is common knowledge.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I am entirely in the hands of the house. If it is the desire of hon, members to proceed with the resolution, I am content.
Importation oj Fuel


Hugh Guthrie: Your Honour was entirely right in pointing out the difficulties before allowing the discussion to proceed.


Hermas Deslauriers: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this resolution is to specially draw the attention of the house to certain trade abuses of too long standing and the victims of which have been not only the unemployed but the whole population of Canada.
Owing to the length and rigour of the winter from which we have just emerged, Providence seems to impose upon the government the task of investigating all unhuman coalition or conspiration practised in the fuel trade of Canada, in the milk and bread trade as well, and to so legislate that trusts, with hearts of stone, be forced to respect, first, our laws and be prevented from accumulating fortunes over the distress of the people.
Anthracite coal does not exist in the two old provinces of confederation, and is practically nil in the other provinces. The United States, England and Scotland, at present, supply Canada, in this respect, through the medium of Canadian companies. On October 13, 1932, the hon. senator from the division of Rouge-mont drew the attention of the senate to the fact that rumours had spread that certain coal companies had combined so as to maintain high prices for coal, namely up to $17 per ton, in Montreal, when, in the past, the same coal could be purchased for $7 per ton. He requested that the question be brought to the attention of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gordon) for immediate consideration. On the promise of the hon. leader of the senate that this would be done, the upper house proceeded to another subject.
On October 21, 1032, the hon. senator for the division of Rougemont, having been informed, from a reliable source, that British anthracite coal cost the companies which imported it, $5.30 per ton, on the wharves, at Montreal, introduced in the senate a resolution adopted by the Labour Board of Ottawa, requesting the government to hold an investigation on the prices of coal in Canada, and enforcing, if "necessary the act dealing with coalitions. Then, always through the intermediary of the leader of the senate, it was suggested that the senate should proceed with this question in conjunction with the Federal Fuel Commission.
On November 9, 1932, the hon. senator for the division of Rougemont again presses his point and introduces a resolution from the
[Mr. Speaker.)
secretary of the Central Board of the Municipal Associations of Ottawa, requesting that the government hold a public investigation, and not an inquiry in camera, as was being done.
To force the government to hold a public investigation over the operations of these various importing companies, the act requires that the request be signed by six persons who render themselves responsible for serious and heavy liabilities, .especially, to-day when we are aware of the numerous subtleties of the act invoked in a recent investigation ordered by the province of Quebec and which ended by a fine, rightly deserved, imposed on some of these companies. I do not intend to carry on, in the house, the trial of the coal importing companies Whose case is pending-an appeal having been lodged-and who may appeal even to the privy council and obtain, in four or five years, a judgment corresponding to the one in connection with the Labrador coast. I have not the right.


Mr. BARRETTE (Translation):: Then why bring up the subject.


Hermas Deslauriers: Well, it is my privilege to state that the fine and accumulated costs will be entirely compensated, if we permit any of these companies to further shamefully prey on the unemployed and the public at large.
I refer to no one in particular in my resolution, however, I wish to discuss the question of coal imports, as a whole, such as practised in this country, so as to hinder any fleecing of the people by certain groups who wish to organize in such a way in order to transgress the law and prey shamefully, next winter and in future years, on the public at large. That is the outline of my theme.


Joseph Arthur Barrette: You are
aware that an appeal has been lodged. Then, why bring up the subject?


Hermas Deslauriers: I would beg of the hon. member for Berthier-Maski-nonge to observe the rules of the house. If he wishes to discuss the subject matter he will be given full opportunity. What I request of him is to act like a gentleman towards me as I intend to act towards him.
Undoubtedly the question which I have brought up is of wide interest, since it affects the federal treasury, which contributes one-third in the cost of the fuel distributed to the unemployed. It has been established that the

Importation oj Fuel
public was shamefully fleeced. In this connection, I do not wish to refer to the companies whose case is pending; others are not yet so, but will probably be later on. And we cannot help-[DOT]


Joseph Arthur Barrette: Did you
discuss this subject, under the previous regime?


Hermas Deslauriers: I beg of you, Mr. Speaker, to see that the rules of the house are observed. Otherwise, I shall have the painful duty to request the Sergeant at Arms to fetch a very small bench for the hon. member, if he continues to carry on like a school boy.
An hon. MEMBER (Translation): He will be put out.


Joseph Arthur Barrette: We shall go out together.


Hermas Deslauriers: 
Joseph Arthur Barrette: I think
that you yourself wish to make political capital out of this.


Hermas Deslauriers: The
present price of coal is most ruthless. It is a known fact that these companies can purchase this product at $5 per ton, owing to lower wages, cheaper transport and handling during this crisis. These trusts take advantage of this to squeeze their victims, forcing, at times, heads of family-I saw many in the course of this winter-receiving, at times insufficient relief, to ration off the bread of their children so as to prevent them from freezing to death.
This situation would never have existed had the government performed their duty at the right time. They hesitate, at present, to expose the impudence of this trust which endeavours to carry on by unending court procedure, compensated, during that time, by the enormous profits they realize. At all events,
I request, by my resolution, the control over coal trade and all coal imports. Let the importer, in the future, be forced to come before a commission, having the authority to fix the price of fuel. If the government have not the courage to assume the responsibility, which is theirs, in this respect, the people will soon have an opportunity to choose representatives capable of enforcing the laws of this country and to protect it against those whose conscience seem to entirely forget the human side.
Urgency is as much required, in the sense of this resolution, during this world wide depression, as it was during the Great War. The situation is as serious now as it was at that period, when all were working and receiving high wages; to-day, the problem interests people who have been without work for the last year or two, and who are completely destitute. It is urgent that the price of coal
Importation oj Fuel

be fixed by the government as they did, in war time, for butter, which sold at 29 cents per pound with a tendency to rise, and which they fixed at 22 cents, the same as they did with the price of cheese.
The public does not expect the appointment of a commission like that of 1919, whose main prerogative was to hold inquiries which furnished profiteers new means of monopolizing and further squeezing the people, but they expect to see a commission authorized to control the purchase of fuel imported and fix the sale price so as to allow dealers a fair profit only.
This question of fuel imports raises the question of the embargo on Russian coal and oils. It is admitted by analysts that the Russian coal is richer in calories than the Scotch, English or American coal. I fail to see why the government maintains an embargo on Russian coal which, according to my information, could be retailed at $6 per ton on the wharves at Montreal. The same applies to the Russian gasoline which could be retailed at 12 or 13 cents per gallon. Why does the government, in these times of depression, maintain this embargo, when Great Britain, France, Italy, Germany and our neighbours, the United States have restored trade relations with the soviet republic; when our liabilities impose on us such urgent economy to triumph over unemployment almost nation-wide; when we know, by the history of all countries, that in order to bring on revolutions, to spread socialist, communist and bolshevist principles, there are no surer means than to permit profiteers to spread distress among the people through their abuse of power or the tolerance of their extortions; when we, with a small population of hardly 10,000,000 souls, know through experience that our attitude can in no way influence the antisocial principles of Russia; when Great Britain and all European nations, as well as the United States by their entirely opposite attitude condemn our conduct?
The mother country, queen of the sister nations of the British Empire, which fixes the world prices of all products, after having considered the trade offers of precisely those against whom we maintain an embargo, applies it to our products so far as the economic conference agreements permit it. Is it not plausible to think that we expose ourselves to be the tools of either the British or American trade, when, through experience we have found out that they are certainly neither the one nor the other more scrupulous than our Canadian coal importing companies; when we know that after Canada placed the

products of Germany on the black list, so that our consumers and merchants would not encourage her trade, Great Britain managed to send us boots and shoes manufactured in Germany, after having wiped out the country of origin's trade mark on the boxes and replaced it by one of English origin?
Are we not permitted to think that the United States and Great Britain, being able to obtain a superior quality of coal to theirs, at S3 per ton, and gasoline, also of a superior quality, at 2J cents per gallon, which can be mixed to their products, without possibility of being detected, and shipped to a market like Canada, where they will be paid for their coal $17 per ton, and for their gasoline 29 cents per gallon, are we not permitted to think that they will not even take the trouble to mix their products before shipping them to us? They may, themselves, utilize all these imported products, seeing that they are of a superior quality, and ship their own, just as we note in Canada certain provinces purchasing electric current at advantageous prices, for their own requirement and sell their electric current to the United States at enhanced prices.


Joseph Arthur Barrette: Tell us
something about the electric current trust.


Hermas Deslauriers: The
purpose of my resolution is to prevent speculation on the people's distress and to prevent other nations from considering us as a nation so greatly deprived of intellect that we cannot assume any other part than the one of being unceasingly duped.
I think, sir, seeing that the Canadian people are struggling with depression and witnessing its spirit, each day, weakening, that energetic measures are necessary to solve the problem of unemployment.
Desperate diseases require desperate remedies. This resolution may seem to a few-


Joseph Arthur Barrette: Out of
order.


Hermas Deslauriers: 
Mr. ARTHUR DENIS (St. Denis) (Translation) :: Mr. Speaker, I rise with pleasure to
second this resolution. It fell to the lot of an hon. member sitting on the opposition benches to courageously point out to the house and the country that we are, at present, at the mercy of a fuel trust.


Joseph Arthur Barrette: Of what?


Joseph-Arthur Denis: Fuel.


Joseph Arthur Barrette: What
trust?


Joseph-Arthur Denis: I would request the hon. membeT for Berthier-Maskinonge (Mr. Barrette) to quietly proceed signing the letters he addresses to his constituents whom he is powerless to help.
I was stating that it fell to the lot of an hon. member of the opposition to point out to the country at large that we are at the mercy of a fuel trust, and I shall state it is not the only trust operating in this country. Throughout the entire world trusts are being organized to exploit the consumer. If to-day we are undergoing one of the most severe crises which the country has ever experienced, it is because we are at the mercy of financial trusts and that this government has absolutely done nothing in the last three years to remedy the situation.


Joseph Arthur Barrette: What
about the coal investigation?


Joseph-Arthur Denis: It is thanks
to a representative of the Liberal party in the Senate, if an investigation was held, and not to this government.
Importation of Fuel


John Thomas Hackett: I rise to a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman is_ discussing the coal inquiry which it was pointed out by the Speaker when the resolution was presented could not be touched upon because the matter was sub judice.


Ernest Lapointe: He has a good excuse, because the hon. member for Berthier-Maski-nonge (Mr. Barrette) asked him to talk about the coal inquiry.


Mr. GAGNON:: No.


Ernest Lapointe: I agree that he should not discuss it.


John Thomas Hackett: I do not think my hon. friend the ex-Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) contends that the debate is in order as it is now being carried on?


Ernest Lapointe: No.


Paul Mercier: The hon.
member for St. Denis (Mr. Denis) has not entered into a discussion of the coal investigation. He simply mentioned it and then carefully kept away from it.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: I was explaining how it happened that an inquiry on coal was held. It was because there are, among the Liberal membership, men who understood t'heir duty, but especially who understood-


John Thomas Hackett: Mr. Speaker, again I
rise to a point of order. I take exception to any discussion of the coal inquiry which at present is before the courts. The hon. gentleman is proceeding to explain by whom it was initiated and by whom it was carried to a conclusion.


Ernest Lapointe: Mr. Speaker, injustice to the hon. member who is addressing the house, I must say that he has not referred at all to the trials. He simply referred to the inquiry instituted in the Senate, not at all to the case before the courts of Quebec. However, I would join with my hon. friend from Stanstead (Mr. Hackett) in asking the hon. member for St. Denis to try to avoid even a reference to that inquiry.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: I understand,
Sir, that I may continue, being quite in order.


Mr. DORION (Translation):: Not in order, but in the state of matrimony.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: I realize that
hon. members opposite dislike that we should refer to this subject; however, when any step is taken in the interest of the people, it is always due to the Liberal party.


Mr. MERCIER (St. Henri) (Translation):: Why not?


Joseph-Arthur Denis: Those who
realize our situation, also realize that it is due to a few profiteers who met behind closed doors in order to speculate on the honesty and money-


Charles Napoléon Dorion: Money is
made to speculate.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: -of the consumer and also on fuel, such as it exists today. It is unquestionable that the Canadian people have been fleeced and will continue to be so, as long as this government remains in power.


Joseph-Alexandre Mercier: The fuel is becoming red hot.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: This government succeeded-


Charles Napoléon Dorion: To defeat
your party.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: -to hoist itself in office by means of alluring but false promises, and you have to admit that it has been unable to carry them out. It now requests the people to be very patient and trust in better days. I congratulate the Canadian people for their fortitude in putting up with a government so neglectful of the interests of the people. It contented itself with throwing a few millions-


Mr. LAFLECHE (Translation):: Into the
provincial treasury.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: -to the people, to relieve unemployment.
In my opinion, the primary cause of the crisis from which we are suffering is the spread existing between the cost of production and distribution. It is high time that the government should carry out its pledges and assume the responsibility of checking these public impostors who take advantage of this spread between the cost of production and distribution. Coal is not the only trade in which that happens-


Joseph Arthur Barrette: Electric
current.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: The hon. member for Berthier-Maskinonge (Mr. Barrette) is perfectly right, when he says electric current also.


Joseph-Alexandre Mercier: Present him with an electric iron.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: It happens
in the milk, bread and even in t'he manufactured jam trade-

Importation of Fuel


Charles Napoléon Dorion: In patent
medicines.
An hon. MEMBER (Translation): In jam.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: -even in jam, construction material, etc. I could enumerate many other trusts where this happens, and which are to blame for the existence of this crisis which will continue as long as we lack an energetic government, which lives up to its obligations towards the people. My friends opposite smile.


Onésime Gagnon: We find it sad.


Charles Napoléon Dorion: We not only smile, but laugh.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: Let them laugh because when the people present themselves at the polls and when their seat in the house is in jeopardy, they will not find it so funny.


Joseph-Alexandre Mercier: It is a real cyclone which is approaching.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: And, were I to be personal-


Charles Napoléon Dorion: Do not cause us any sorrow.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: -I might point to some that are opposite to me, who will be the first to be left at home at the next election.


Joseph-François Laflèche: For all the enjoyment we derive from listening to your utterances in the house, we might as well be at home.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: I hear the voice of the hon. member for Richmond-Wolfe (Mr. Lafieche), probably, he will be the first to disappear.


Joseph-François Laflèche: I would rather disappear at once, than further listen to you.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: You were very uneasy, the other day, while listening to your 'friend the hon. member for Compton (Mr. Gobeil)-


Joseph-François Laflèche: I was not in the house.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: when he insulted what we hold very dear in the province of Quebec: the University of Montreal. I trust that you will be as patient as you were when listening to him, for I do not cast any aspersion on our national institutions.


Charles Napoléon Dorion: Which ones.


Joseph-Arthur Denis: I request the government to seriously consider this resolution and act immediately so as to find rational means to control these trusts and all profiteers. In acting thus, it will render a great service to the community.


Hon. W. A. GORDON (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, before the debate on this resolution closes I should like to make a few observations. I have had great difficulty in following the remarks of the hon. members who have spoken, but without transgressing that very sound rule with regard to the discussion of matters which are sub judice, I think it desirable that the position of the government should be made clear.
I gathered from the remarks of the hon. members that they have unconsciously placed the blame, if cine wants to call it that, on the government for such action as was or was not taken with respect to the institution of a coal investigation under the terms of the Combines Investigation Act. I should like to make a few observations with respect to the procedure followed, and I think I shall be able to convince hon. members that the government adopted the course which was contemplated by the statute.
Under the act, any six British subjects resident in Canada may sign an application, accompanied by a statutory declaration, that in their opinion a combine as interpreted by the act exists. This application comes before the registrar appointed under the act and it is incumbent upon him to take such steps as he deems necessary to investigate the position set out in the application. It will be noted that the six persons who sign this application do not need to set out the reasons for their belief; any six persons can start the law in motion. The act has a further provision in section 12, which reads:
Whenever such application shall be made to the registrar, or whenever the registrar shall have reason to believe that a combine exists or is being formed, or whenever so directed by the minister, the registrar shall cause an inquiry to be made into all such matters-
And so forth. Now, with respect to the coal inquiry, the matter was discussed in another place and certain statements were made which were brought to my attention as Minister of Labour charged with the responsibility of administering the Combines Investigation Act. Those charges were made by men of prominence, and without any delay, without awaiting the signatures of six persons, I directed that the inquiry take place; and it took place just as rapidly as an inquiry could be carried on.
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importation oj Fuel

When the investigation was over and the registrar's report, as contemplated by the statute, was handed to me, two courses were open. I might in my discretion do nothing; or I might send the report of the registrar to the attorney general of the province concerned in order that he might review it, because the provinces are charged not only with the responsibility of administering the criminal laws but with the responsibility of taking proceedings under the Combines Investigation Act if, after they have reviewed the registrar's report, they come to the conclusion that there has been an invasion of the provisions of the statute.
Every bit of evidence including the report was transmitted by me to the province of Quebec as the statute contemplates. I have heard it said, in fact I believe the premier of Quebec is reported to have said, that he has done his duty when Ottawa failed to do it. This government, with meticulous care, right from the beginning instituted the inquiry and followed it up with the transmission of the evidence to the proper authorities in the province of Quebec. They in their judgment, after reviewing the situation, did their duty-yes. They carried on certain proceedings to which I will not make reference because the cases are in the courts to-day.
Then the act further provides that if after the transmission of a report to a province it seems to the law officers of that province, who are charged with the responsibility under the British North America Act of enforcing these laws, that there has been no invasion of the act, and three months elapse and nothing is done, then the federal authorities may still step in and cause an information to be laid, based upon the registrar's report. The province of Quebec, doing what they regarded as their plain duty, based upon the registrar's report and the advice of their law officers, laid certain information against some companies, and those proceedings are now before the courts, and I will go no further in speaking concerning the position of those cases because that is, I think, an invasion of the rules of this chamber. But let me make it clear-and I do not think any member of this house wants to misinterpret my actions or the actions of the government-that right from the beginning of this investigation the federal authority took steps with patient regularity, just as rapidly as they could be taken, to see that the terms of the Combines Investigation Act were carried out.
With respect to the resolution itself, -I must again acknowledge that I was unable

to follow the speakers who have preceded me owing to my lack of knowledge of the French language. However, I hope, if I am here another session, that I shall be able to overcome that difficulty.


Ernest Lapointe: You are doing very well.


Wesley Ashton Gordon: One part of the address
made by the hon. member for St. Mary (Mr. Deslauriers) had reference I believe to the admission by Canada of Russian coal. It is true that the federal government has excluded the importation of that fuel, one of the reasons being that that coal is being mined by forced and convict labour. That is not denied. Another reason is that we have developed a very large business with Great Britain, which is in competition with the anthracite fields of the United States. No one will deny that the price of anthracite coal has been very materially reduced in the last four years; whether it should be reduced further is something that I am not able to answer. But at any rate we do know that there is the keenest kind of competition in that business to-day between British and United States anthracite dealers.
I wonder whether the member for St. Mary, when he advocates the admission of Russian coal and condemns the government for the action they took, would also condemn the government for banning the admission of Russian pulpwood, concerning which the province of Quebec and the operators there have definite views.	The reason Russian
pulpwood was excluded was this. It is well known, it is admitted, that particularly in the northern sections of Russia the lumbering operations are carried on by convict and forced labour. I wonder if the government are to be commended or condemned because they banned the importation of Russian pulpwood and pulp and products of that character when we knew and the industry knew and the bush operator knew and the workmen knew that any price at which Canadian pulp might be sold would be undercut by the Russian pulpwood operators, who were carrying on their business by forced and convict labour.
The present administration has seen fit to subsidize or enlarge the subsidies with respect to Canadian coal. Some have criticized us for so doing; it may be that the government is open to some criticism, but I think I can safely say that if this administration had not given assistance to the coal industry, particularly of Nova Scotia, there probably would be no coal produced in that province to-day.

Importation of Fuel


Mr. MACDOUGALL:: And we thank you
for it.


Wesley Ashton Gordon: The amount of coal moved under the subventions from the province of Nova Scotia into central Canada now amounts to almost one and a half million tons. Assistance was also given to western Canada in connection with the movement of coal into the industrial areas of Quebec and Ontario. It is true that there is shown a great shrinkage the world over in the consumption of coal, but examination of the figures will show that the shrinkage in Canada is at least no worse than it is in other coal producing countries. There are some who say that this industry should not be subsidized, and arguments may be advanced in favour of that opinion. My own view is that the coal industry in Canada, built up as it was over a long period of years; towns, villages and communities having been established about the operating coal mines, and the industry being national in character, any government is justified in lending reasonable assistance to that industry in order that it may be kept going and that the wage earners engaged therein shall not be disturbed and probably have to seek employment elsewhere. I think that particularly at a time like this, no better form of relief could possibly be granted than the assistance that the government has given to the coal mining industry of this country.
Now, sir, I do not know that it would be helpful to say more at this time; perhaps an opportunity will arise later when the estimates are before the house to go more carefully into the matter of the production of coal, the assistance that has been given, and all the interrelated matters having to do with that most complex industry. At the moment I shall only say that we have our Combines Investigation Act, and as long as that act is on our statute book this house will expect me to do no more and no less than see that its provisions are observed. I shall most certainly see that that is done.


John Thomas Hackett: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for St. Mary (Mr. Deslauriers) has brought in a resolution suggesting that it is in the public interest that the federal government should appoint a commission to control the importation of all fuels into Canada. That may be a topic for useful debate, but before my hon. friend reached the point of his resolution he devoted some time to criticism of the government under several headings. The first point, and the one that seemed to arouse the greatest resentment in his bosom, was that the government had not held an even and fair scale in the conduct of its business. He asked, Why should there have been a public inquiry in the Beau-harnois matter and a private inquiry in the coal matter? I think that to ask the question is probably to answer it. The records of the house for the year 1931 show that on the 10th of June, 1931, by unanimous consent it was ordered:
That	Messrs.	Dorion, Fiset, Gardiner,
Gordon, Jacobs. Jones, Lennox. Mackenzie (Vancouver Centre), Stewart (Lethbridge), be a committee to investigate from its inception the Beauharnois project for the development of hydro-electric energy by the use of the waters of the St. Lawrence river so far as the matters referred to are within the jurisdiction of the parliament of Canada, and without restricting the generality of the foregoing words in particular to investigate the matters referred to in the speech made in the House of Commons by Mr. Robert Gardiner, the hon. member for Acadia, on the 19th day of May last, as reported on pages 1731-1740 of Hansard, and to report from time to time their observations and opinions thereon; with power to send for persons, papers and records.
Mr. Speaker, there is the charter, given unanimously by this chamber to nine gentlemen. It is beside my point to enter into the hinterland of the Beauharnois investigation or to follow it to any of its conclusions, sinister or othewise, but I would draw to the attention of my hon. friend this fact, that the reason that investigation was parliamentary, public and all-embracing was that this house in its wisdom decreed that it should be just so.


Mr. HANSON (York):: Unanimously.


John Thomas Hackett: Unanimously. If an
investigation was conducted in another way, in another place, into another set of circumstances, it is simply because the statute under which that investigation was brought about required that it be carried out in the manner in which it was. Under paragraph 12 of the Combines Investigation Act the minister ordered the registrar to ascertain whether or not in his opinion sufficient grounds existed for a prosecution. Mark that well; under section 12, in the normal functioning of the statute, the minister instructed the registrar to ascertain whether or not in the registrar's opinion, after hearing all the witnesses, there was reason for a prosecution, which is a public investigation.
Does it not seem wise that anybody and everybody should not be subjected to the ignominy of a public investigation on mere suspicion or on what may be ill-founded information? This house debated the Com-
Importation of Fuel

bines Investigation Act long and carefully and decided that it would be most effective if a trusted servant of the government should be afforded the opportunity of investigating privately and deciding whether or not a public investigation, if that is what you wish to call a trial, should take place. And it is specifically enacted that this investigation shall be private. I hope I have made it clear to the hon. member who represents St. Mary (Mr. Deslauriers) why in the one instance the investigation was public and why in its incipient stages the other it was not. When the registrar made his report his findings were forwarded to those officers who, under our constitution, are charged with the administration of the laws of which it was said a breach had been committed and they, however reluctantly, in the fulfilment of their duty put those laws in motion.
I think it well that there should not be confusion on these issues. In these days, when there is some suffering and when there are many people out of work who are easily incited to rebel against their lot, it seems to me unfortunate that the agencies charged with the preservation of law and order should be without reason accused of partiality in the administration of their offices.
My friend from St. Mary raises another broad question which I think will bear some scrutiny. My hon. friends from St. Mary and St. Denis say these are trusts, that these are combinations. I would point out that all trusts and all combinations are not in themselves illicit, and are not in themselves baneful; it is only those which operate in restraint of trade that are harmful. This is so true that in a neighbouring country, one of the. great countries of the world, they have abolished their anti-trust legislation; they have torn up their Sherman statute and today have consolidated, amalgamated and combined, if you like, for the purpose of doing away with the cost and loss incidental to competition. I am not arguing for trusts or combines; I am keeping carefully away from the question which is before the courts, but I think it well that my hon. friends from St. Denis and St. Mary should realize that they must go a step further than merely establishing that there is a combination or trust, before they can complain of the activities of such an organization. Would it surprise my hon. friends if I told them that the whole world is cartelized, that in a number of industries the world is divided, A taking this continent and B taking that continent? Are we to conclude that ill necessarily results from organization and discipline? I am not

urging that greed may not characterize these activities at times, but when that has been established it is time to complain. The charge is inadequate, however, if it merely states that competition has been eliminated. We in this chamber spent weeks and even months in dealing with our railways, and what was the source of the trouble? It was the cost of competition, the unnecessary expenditure which resulted from the efforts of these contending companies to wrest business from one another, and if I understood the purpose of the legislation which was enacted last session, its chief object was to do away with the cost that is incidental to rivalry.
My hon. friend from St. Mary has gone very far indeed; he has suggested that it_ is the function of this government to appoint a commission to control the importation of fuels into Canada. He has not told the house exactly how far he wishes to go with his control. Does he wish to have all traffic in fuels become an exclusive prerogative of the crown? Does he wish that we should be forced to go to the commission and buy our coal at such reduced prices as we buy our beverages from the liquor commission? Does he wish that the government should have a monopoly of wood, coal, crude oil and electricity, of course, we must remember that a great many people are using electricity these days for purposes of heating-would he include all these in the activites of a vast commission or combine controlling one of the essentials of life in this northern climate? I think he has much to explain. Before he can hope that this chamber will consider his suggestion seriously he must carry his definition much farther. Before he has gone very far he would find some difficulty-and may I add that the government of my native province is as alert as any other in the vindication of its rights. If the federal government attempted to establish a monopoly in the province of Quebec on a necessity of life such as fuel, it would not be long before the provincial government would make it clear that the field was not unchallenged. I wonder whether or not my hon. friends from St. Mary and St. Denis have had the advantage of a long discussion with the ex-minister of Justice, the hon. member for Quebec East (Mr. Lapointe) as to the constitutionality of their suggestion? I should be greatly interested and none the less edified by his opinions as to the feasibility and the legal possibility of the suggestion embodied in this resolution.
Of course, to be effective a commission would have to control not only the importation but also the price of fuel; it would have to control the wages paid to those handling

Importation oj Fuel
it, as well as the distribution. If untoward results were not to ensue, fuel would have to be sold like beverages-for cash; and I fear if it could be sold only for cash quite as many would go cold as have gone thirsty during the last two or three years. I suggest to the hon. member, by way of digression, that he could not have read the newspapers very carefully if he is under the impression that the spread between So for run-of-mine and the retail price for refined coal of S14 or $15 for anthracite is net profit.


Isaac Duncan MacDougall: In justice to the different provinces producing coal, would the hon. member state to which coal he is referring?


John Thomas Hackett: British coal, to which reference was made in the newspapers, and of which I think my hon. friend from St. Mary was speaking.
I will say in conclusion, Mr. Speaker, that until the resolution is elaborated it is without any possible significance. It can have no meaning, and is not worthy-possibly I should not put it as bluntly as that, but I think until it has been brought into the realm of practicability it should not further detain the deliberations of the house.


Mr. R. K. SMITH (Cumberland):: Mr. Speaker, I regret on account of lack of knowledge of the French language it was impossible for me to follow the remarks of the hon. member who introduced the resolution. I gathered from the previous speaker's remarks that the resolution placed on the order paper and the arguments used by the sponsor in support of it are not sufficiently cogent to justify the application of the remedy he had in his mind, or to warrant its being employed as a medium to control the importation of coal into Canada.
Just before resuming his seat the last speaker pointed out what he thought were certain anomalies in the resolution, and in that connection I must wholeheartedly agree with him. My main purpose in rising at this time, however, is to inform the house that the importance of the coal industry to the province of Nova Scotia cannot be overestimated. I woud like to say also that it would be impossible for me to express in words sufficiently high praise of the present government for the various aids it has given since 1930 to the coal industry of Nova Scotia. The industry is a difficult one to operate and manage. There is such a vast spread between costs of production of coal mined in Canada and coal mined in the United States that it is impossible for the coal industry in any part of Canada to survive unless it receives some sort of governmental protection, aids or other assistance by
way of bonuses and reduction in freight rates to enable it to compete with the cheaper mined coal coming in from the United States. I have not the figures before me, I shall speak in round numbers and subject to correction.
May I point first of all in a general way to the tremendous shrinkage in the importation of bituminous coal from the United States to Canada during the last four years. As I recall the figures, there has been a shrinkage of approximately 5,000,000 tons in a single year, which means that about 5,000,000 tons less bituminous coal came into Canada from the United States last year than in 1929. As has been suggested, the tonnage imported is practically cut in two. With respect to the coal sold in what is usually termed central Canada, figures which have been made available only recently by the fuel board indicate in a very forceful manner the splendid results to the industry brought about by the government aids granted during the last three years. In order to make the facts known to the house I shall put on record a few figures for the past five or six years showing the amount of Nova Scotia coal marketed in central Canada on account of the aids this government has supplied since it came into power.
In 1928, through the government aids in existence at that time, Nova Scotia marketed in central Canada 114,080 tons; in 1929, which was the last complete year of the old government that figure had increased to 304,533 tons; in 1930, to 372,056 tons; in 1931, to 401,597 tons; in 1932, to 703,691 tons; and in 1933 the amount of Nova Scotia coal marketed in central Canada jumped to 1,482,961 tons. In other words, Mr. Speaker, the figure jumped from 114,000 odd in 1928 to nearly 1,500,000 in 1933, and that increase was due exclusively to the assistance granted by the present government for the marketing and movement of Nova Scotia coal to central Canada.
The coal industry in the province of Nova Scotia has been struggling during the past number of years on account of many causes, including the general shrinkage in markets for fuel in Canada due to world conditions, and on that account it has been doubly hard for the industry to survive and compete. I agree with the assertion that were it not for the assistance granted by the present government a number of the coal mines in the province of Nova Scotia would be closed to-day. My hon. friend from Inverness (Mr. MacDougall) says that we would not have a pit working to-day, and I have no doubt that is correct. There are between twelve and fifteen thousands miners engaged in the coal industry in Nova Scotia, and about one hundred thou-

Importation of Fuel

sand people in the province directly dependent on that industry. Coal royalties in the province run to approximately $500,000 a year; last year it was a little higher. As I said at the outset, it is impossible to overestimate the importance of this industry to the province.
The hon. member for St. Mary (Mr. Des-lauriers) states in his resolution that the coal business of Canada should be altered. If by altering he means changing the present regulations reducing the present government aids to the coal industry, then absolutely the province of Nova Scotia is firmly opposed to any such policy of alteration. If altering means increasing the assistance or aids which this government has so generously supplied, naturally I am not opposed to that, but I do not think we are in a position to-day to come clamouring to this government for an increase in the assistance which they have given. The results are showing just exactly what we hoped. I would not go so far as to say that they are all we require, but under the conditions that exist to-day we have no complaint in respect of the policy inaugurated by this government in assisting the coal industry of Nova Scotia.
With respect to the appointment of a commission to control the importation of fuel into Canada, possibly it might be set up with some beneficial results, but I am not sufficiently acquainted with what the hon. gentleman had in mind in that regard to elaborate on the question. I want to say, however, that in Nova Scotia we have had two royal commissions in recent years dealing exclusively with the coal industry in the province, and then we had another Duncan commission dealing generally with maritime claims and the coal industry and all other industries in the province. So we know pretty well the exact position of the coal industry, the costs of production at home and the- costs in other countries. Those of us who were here previous to 1930 felt and urged that we should have additional tariff protection for the coal, and that was granted by the present government when it came into power. In 1930 there was a duty of 50 cents a ton on bituminous coal, and this government increased it to 75 cents a ton, the highest duty that ever was imposed on bituminous coal in Canada. There was no duty on anthracite coal when this government came into power, and the government imposed a duty of 40 cents a ton on anthracite. A duty of one dollar a ton was placed on the importation of coke. Bonuses were also given to coking plants which enabled a large quantity of

Nova Scotia coal to be processed in a plant near Montreal, the amount so used last year amounting to nearly 150,000 tons. These, together with the reductions made in the railway rate and the other aids granted, make the contribution of this government to the coal industry of Nova Scotia of a magnitude never previously experienced in Nova Scotia with respect to any industry, and I doubt if it has been exceeded by any other government in respect to any other industry in the dominion.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, may I say that, the people of the province of Nova Scotia appreciate what the present government has done for the coal industry and appreciate it all the more because if it had not been for that assistance some of our mines would have been closed and hundreds of our miners thrown out of employment, and we would have had many thousands more on unemployment relief throughout the province than we have to-day.
At six o'clock the house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, March 8, 1934