Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Railways) moved:: That the recommendations of the Commission of Internal Economy laid on the table of the house this day be approved.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Thomas Alexander Crerar: That the salaries of the members' stenographers staff and the sessional clerks be paid in full during the Easter recess according to the recommendations of the Commission of Internal Economy laid on the table of the house this day be approved.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 121, respecting the St. Clair Transit Company.-Mr. Gray.

Mr. SPEAKER:: I would like to have the sense of the house as to whether this long list of bills shall be read individually or en bloc.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: I am in favour of a
blanket motion.


Mr. RYCKMAN:: I think it should be on
division.


Hewitt Bostock: Is it the pleasure of the
house that the whole list be considered on one motion?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Yes.
Bill No. 60, for the relief of Nora Kathleen Eayrs.-Mr. McPhee.
Bill No. 61, for the relief of Herbert Chick. -Mr. Black (Yukon).
Bill No. 62, for the relief of Albert Edward Saunders.-Mr. Young (Toronto Northeast).
Bill No. 63, for the relief of Marjorie Gladys Picken.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 64, for the relief of Percy Victor Hobbes.-Mr. Geary.
Bill No. 65, for the relief of Raymond Gar-butt Little.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 66, for the relief of Constance Bertrand Murray.-Mr. Sanderson.
Private Bills



VALIDATION OF ORDERS IN COUNCIL


Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of the Interior) moved:: 
Sir GEORGE PERLEY:: Will the minister give the house a short explanation?


Charles A. Stewart: This resolution covers the formal approval of the orders in council as provided for in the act. This has not been done for a considerable number of years and it is necessary to have the assent of parliament in order to validate the orders in council.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: Does this
cover the order in council referring to the Beauhamois Power Company?


Charles A. Stewart: It has nothing to do with that.


Edward Joseph Garland: An order
in council was presented by the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Elliott) dealing with the ratification of the specifications and so on in connection with the Beauharnois power development.


Charles A. Stewart: These are
the orders in council passed under the Dominion Lands Act and the Dominion Forest Reserves and Parks Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Railways) moved that the house go into committee to-morrow to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend the Government Employees Compensation Act to extend the benefits of the act to all employees in the service of His Majesty performing like or similar duties or services to those of employees of persons other than His Majesty to whom the benefits of the Workmen's Compensation Act of the province apply, and to extend the interpretation of the term compensation to include any benefits, expenses or allowances that are provided for under the provincial compensation acts.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Railways) moved that the house go into committee to-morrow to consider the following proposed resolution:
That the acts relating to the Toronto Terminals Railway Company be amended to provide that the amount of $10,500,000 which the Canadian National Railway Company was authorized to issue by the amending act, 1928, chapter 51, may be increased to an amount not exceeding $14,150,000, to be used for the purposes therein prescribed and for defraying the cost of other railway facilities necessitated by or incidental to the construction of the viaduct and works.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Railways and Canals moved that the house go into committee to-morrow to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure respecting the Canadian National Railway Company, to provide for the refunding of certain notes or obligations of the Canadian Northern Railway Company and the Minnesota and Manitoba Railroad Company, and for the issue of substituted securities therefor guaranteed by the Dominion not exceeding $20,942,038.84, the aggregate face value of the original securities.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Halsey Perley: Can the Minister of Finance give the house some idea as to when the budget speech is likely to be delivered? It has been reported in the newspapers that it will probably be brought down on the twenty-ninth instant, the day after the house meets again. If the minister is unable to fix a definite date, it would be a convenience to the members if he could give us an approximate idea as to when it is likely to be delivered.
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance): I am sorry I cannot be very
1474	COMMONS
Supply-Public Works-Telegraph Lines
definite. I am hoping to bring down the budget as soon as possible after the Easter recess. I think I .can assure hon. members that it will not be brought down on the first day after the Easter recess and in all probability not on the second day. I am hoping it may be brought down in the first week, but I do not want to be taken as being absolutely definite in that regard.



FAIR WAGES AND HOURS

[Stage Direction]
Hon. PETER HEENAN (Minister of Labour) moved the third reading of Bill No. 49, respecting fair wages and an eight-hour day for labour employed on public works of the Dominion of Canada.
George Halsey Perley: As the Senate is not sitting and will not sit again until after we do, the passing to-day of the third reading of this bill will not advance it, and as the house is so thin, the bill might be left over until we return after the Easter recess. There is no particular reason for going on with the bill to-daj-.


Ernest Lapointe: The bill was discussed all day yesterday, but if my hon. friend insists I have no objection.
Motion stands.



EXCISE ACT AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. D. EULER (Minister of National Revenue) moved the third reading of Bill No. 48, to amend the Excise Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Public Works-chargeable to income

 telegraph and telephone lines-British Columbia, $357,250.
The CHAIRMAN:: Last evening when the committee rose we had passed the first item.
Fort St. John building for telegraph service, $4,000.


Mr. FRASER:: Does the construction of this building indicate an extension of the line from Fort St. John to Finlay Forks.


Hon. J. C. ELLIOTT (Minister of Public Works):: No, it does not indicate that. It is to provide for the construction of a building for the telegraph service at Fort St. John, as requested on several occasions within the past year by Mr. J. E. Gobeil, general superintendent of telegraphs, and by District Super-

intendent Noel. The telegraph office is at present located in rented premises, the owner of which requires them and wishes to obtain possession as early as posible during the coming summer. There are no other quarters obtainable and consequently the only alternative is to erect the proposed building at an estimated cost of 84,000.


John Anderson Fraser: For the last two years a request has been before the minister for the extension of that line from Fort St. John to the head of the Peace River canyon, a distance of about fifteen miles. That is a very necessary piece of telegraph line. Could the minister indicate whether he has any idea of giving it serious consideration in his supplementary estimates?


John Campbell Elliott: As to what may appear in the supplementary estimates, it is difficult to say. The matter is under consideration. It has been pressed more especially during the last year.


John Anderson Fraser: Can the minister say he has given it favourable consideration so far?


John Campbell Elliott: I cannot say that with regard to any item, but it will be considered.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telephone line from Dawson Creek to Sunset Prairie, $2,000.
John Anderson Fraser: Will this complete the
line?


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


John Anderson Fraser: How much was spent on the line last summer?


John Campbell Elliott: 

Item agreed to.
Telephone line from Rolla to Rolla Landing, $1,400.


John Anderson Fraser: Is this to complete, and how much was spent on the fine last year?


John Campbell Elliott: The expenditure last year was $233.


John Anderson Fraser: That is a pretty small
amount.


John Campbell Elliott: We hope to do better this year.


John Anderson Fraser: T should hope so. Is it proposed to finish it this year?


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Public Works-Telegraph Lines
Telephone line from Lillooet to Squamish, $23,250.
John Anderson Fraser: I understand that this is
a new line. Would the minister give the details?


Mr. McRAE:: Perhaps I might speak to this item as it happens to be in a district with which I am very familiar. The line is an extension from Lillooet to Squamish. That country has been opened u,p for some fifteen years and communities have been established along the railway line. The railway company, the Pacific Great Eastern, have been somewhat embarrassed by all the demands made on their system, and they have particularly requested to be relieved from the responsibility of providing a public service. They are so much concerned about the situation that they offered the use of their telegraph poles. The result is that a proposal has been made to the government that they should provide the wire in this district, which must necessarily become an integral part of the Dominion telegraph andi telephone system, and take over the service. I am quite sure the government will find that the service will be remunerative from the start. The matter has been before the government for many years, and I want to commend the minister for bringing down this vote, which will give to these communities extending over a distance of eighty or ninety miles the service which they have long sought.


John Anderson Fraser: There is only a very small office to accommodate the present staff at Lillooet. Necessarily, if you are going to build a new line, the work of the staff will be increased and additions to the staff will probably be necessary. Has the minister received any report from his officers as to the necessity for a new building in Lillooet to accommodate the additional staff necessary in connection with this extension ?


John Campbell Elliott: We have had a request
of that kind, and it is receiving consideration.


John Anderson Fraser: My question was, has a
report been made to the minister by his officials as to the necessity of a new public building there?


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


John Anderson Fraser: That report is before the
minister?


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Yukon telegraph system-general repairs and improvements, $20,100.
John Anderson Fraser: What part of the Yukon
does this vote cover?


John Campbell Elliott: This is for the Yukon main line from Ashcroft to Dawson.


John Anderson Fraser: The minister informed me last night that the first item covered that line.


John Campbell Elliott: The item we were speaking of last night was for the northern part of British Columbia up to the Skeena.


John Anderson Fraser: But the minister said that
it was part of the Yukon system.


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


John Anderson Fraser: What part? From Ashcroft to Dawson is the whole system, and apparently', it is divided into two divisions.


John Campbell Elliott: This is the Yukon division, and the one we were speaking of last night is the British Columbia division.


John Anderson Fraser: I do not quite understand
the minister, because it is the same line. The whole sy'stem extends from Ashcroft to Dawson, and apparently you have two divisions. Where is the dividing point between the two divisions?


John Campbell Elliott: The first division is the
one that we were speaking of. last night, from Ashcroft to Hazelton, and the other is from Hazelton to Dawson.


John Anderson Fraser: What further extensions of telephonic communication has the department undertaken in northern British Columbia since 1928?


John Campbell Elliott: My information is that
there are two small branches. I shall be very glad to furnish my hon. friend with the particulars.


Mr. BRADY:: From Fraser lake? The
government has done some very good work there. I would like to know what further work has been done in the past year in extending telephone communication in northern British Columbia.


John Campbell Elliott: There were repairs and
reconstruction in that district last year, but no new lines.


John Anderson Fraser: Are any new lines under
contemplation for the present year?


John Campbell Elliott: None except what has
been mentioned.


James Charles Brady: Except what I asked the
minister about last night?


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


John Anderson Fraser: Has the minister received
a request for extension of lines in this district during the coming year?
,6	COMMONS
Supply-Public Works-Telegraph Lines


John Campbell Elliott: From a territory such as
that, there are always requests. There have been requests this year. I have not a list of them here, but I shall be pleased to furnish it to my hon. friend if he wishes it. Of course, he will understand that I have before me only the details of such items as are in the estimates.


John Anderson Fraser: I would point out that since 1925 there has been before the Department of Public Works a request for the construction of a line from the One Hundred Mile House to Green lake. There is a complete report in the department on that proposed line, and I should like to impress upon the minister the necessity of giving that section of the country telephone communication. It is an isolated section, with quite a number of people in it, and I am quite sure that if the minister were only aware of the conditions he would not hesitate a minute to extend the service into that district. The people are from fifteen to twenty miles from the main line of travel, a long way from doctors, and so forth. They are entirely cut off from communication with the outside world except by road. I believe for two or three years the department refused to consider the requests because there were no permanent roads in that section. The provincial government has now completed the roads, and I think it is up to the minister to give serious consideration to the request. They have been asking for the service for a number of years, and I think they are entitled to it. I should be very pleased indeed if the minister would bear this in mind and give it his special consideration.


Mr. DONNELLY:: I should like to know why this policy of the government building telephone lines in remote districts is confined to British Columbia. Many outlying districts in different parts of Saskatchewan are without telephone communication, and we have to build connecting lines ourselves or get the provincial government to do so. Why should the federal government build telephone lines in the outlying districts of British Columbia; what is the policy of the government in that regard?


John Campbell Elliott: The distinction between
British Columbia and Saskatchewan is that Saskatchewan has a government telephone system and British Columbia at the present time has a privately owned system. The policy of the government in regard to the lines to which we have been referring is, as soon as it is at all practicable from the fi-
TMr. Fraser.]
nancial standpoint, to provide these settlers, who are largely pioneers, with reasonable facilities for keeping in touch with the more settled portions of the country and with civilization generally.


James Charles Brady: Is it the intention of the
government to hand over its present telephone lines in the province to the British Columbia Telephone Company? I find that from Kamloops right through to Vanderhoof that company is taking over the government lines. I believe the federal government, realizing the importance of opening up the country, take a larger view of the situation than would a private corporation. What is the policy of the government in this regard? Are they ready to hand over to the British Columbia Telephone Company all their lines and leave the company to continue the development of necessary extension lines through northern British Columbia.


John Campbell Elliott: The policy of the government is to sell our lines to the company when we are able to get from them a reasonable offer. As my hon. friend very well knows, these are pioneer lines to a large extent.


James Charles Brady: Yes.


John Campbell Elliott: These lines are liabilities to a very great extent so long as they remain in our hands, and as soon as W'e can get commercial concerns to take them over at anything like an equitable price we are glad to transfer them.


James Charles Brady: Before doing so, surely you
will admit the desirability of laying down certain conditions to be carried out by the company regarding further development of the system. Do you have a definite understanding before you hand over your telephone communications to a private company that that company will continue the development in these very important areas where hundreds of people expect telephone communication?


John Campbell Elliott: That is the policy. My
hon. friend will understand that in selling one of these lines to which additions will have to be made in the future it is very difficult to get the purchasing company to agree to undertake all the extensions that might be required within a period of say, five or ten years. We do not go so far as that. We do provide, however, that they shall take care of all the subscribers who are receiving service at the time the line is handed over. We look after future subscribers either by making extensions to the line or by some other arrangement as the necessity arises.

Supply-Public Works-Telegraph Lines


Mr. NEILL:: We discussed this matter last session, Mr. Chairman, and I do not think the minister went as far then as he does now. All I can say is, I think the policy a rotten one.


An hon. MEMBER:: Is that parliamentary?


Alan Webster Neill: We go into unsettled country and at large expense build a telephone line that is badly needed by the settlers, and the operation of the line shows an annual deficit for which the minister is more or less blamed. Then when the line begins to return a little profit we transfer it to a private company.
I know that when that has been done in the past an effort has been made to stipulate that the same rates and conditions shall prevail, but, as the minister has admitted, you cannot bind the company as to its future policy. Then we have the question of further extensions cropping up. We turn over the main line because it is profitable, keeping such portions as are unprofitable and operating them at the expense of the government. A little side line, for instance, is needed, and as it connects with the line of the private company we go there for service. Then you find, as I have found, what their ideas are about building a branch line. In the particular case to which I am referring I wanted a side line extension of a few hundred yards. It was a perfectly reasonable request. I was told I would have to build the whole line at my expense, and it would then become the property of the company. Well, the day it was finished the company put another couple of people on the line. That is a small illustration of the policy of these private companies. I do not think it is fair to the public or to the government to carry out such a policy. When we come down here, as I said before, we find all the government lines showing a deficit, and we blame the minister or his officials, but it is because we have turned over to private companies the profitable ones. I do not think that a good policy; I said so last year, and I feel so still.


Alexander Duncan McRae: I had the privilege last
session of saying a word of appreciation of the government telegraph service in our province. We seldom hear anything in the house about the service. It is strictly a pioneer service, and I for one would regret indeed to see the system curtailed or disintegrated. I should like very much, as the hon. member for Comox-Albemi (Mr. Neill) has said, to see the government continue the work they have so long carried on in connection with this telegraph service. I am sure hon. members from the prairies do not fully appreciate
some of these far-flung districts in British Columbia which the government telegraph service is connecting up with civilization. Many of these districts would be without direct communication to-day but for the government service. On a commercial basis it would be absolutely impossible to maintain the present service. True, there may be some deficit annually, but I believe that that deficit will not be lessened by selling such sections of the system as a private corporation might feel disposed to take over. I rather think the government will find on careful investigation that those sections are remunerative and help, in part, to cany the burden of the whole system. This is a pioneer service which is due to the remote settlements in our province, and which I believe the government and the government alone can supply.


Mr. JELLIFF:: Is any revenue derived by the government from these lines?


John Campbell Elliott: The revenue derived last year by the government from lines operated by it was somewhere in the vicinity of $298,000. When my hon. friends speak of revenue from these lines I think they must bear in mind that the cost always exceeds the revenue. These lines serve pioneer districts, and I regret my hon. friend from Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) has not a better idea of what the government is doing. At least I regret that he is not able to express his idea in more flattering terms than he saw fit to do in regard to the action of the government in this connection. When he used the expression that the government builds these lines, operates them for a certain length of time and turns over the more profitable parts to private companies, he is not as accurate as is his usual custom in statements before the house. The government is not turning over the more profitable portions but it is turning over the less unprofitable ones. Those are the only parts which a commercial company will take over. The government is very anxious to give aid to the people handicapped in the way the pioneers are handicapped; we appreciate that they go into these isolated districts and we wish to give them the best service we can as long as there is a return reasonably commensurate with the service given.


John Anderson Fraser: It would be interesting to the house to know that the Yukon system forms part of the old Collins overland system which was to extend from San Francisco to the Aleutian islands, thence into Russia and back to London. That was put out of operation in 1865 when the Atlantic cable was successfully constructed. As a matter of fact
1478	COMMONS
Supply-Public Works-Telegraph Lines
in 1S65 this line was built as far as Hazelton, and it has been used for the Cariboo country ever since. It was operated until the time of confederation by the government or by some local company; at any rate at the time of confederation it was taken over by the federal government. It constituted one of the grants which we made to the federal government when we entered confederation. The federal government turned it over to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and it was operated for quite a number of years by that railway. When the Yukon territory opened up they wanted telegraphic communication. The line at that time only went as far as Quesnel, but in 1898 when the Dawson country opened up and it was necessary to provide it with telegraphic communication the whole line was reconstructed from Ashcroft to Dawson, a distance of 2,000 miles. It is not by any means a local line; it is 2,000 miles in length and the objective in view when the line was built was to put the Yukon, especially Dawson City and Prince Rupert, in telegraphic communication with the outside world. There was no telegraphic system in Prince Rupert at that time, and for a long time it served the northern country. It is impossible for the government to operate at a profit a line of that length which runs through a country so sparsely settled. I wish to say in fairness to the minister and to the government that so far as the system is concerned it has always been of an excellent character; the line is kept in first class condition and provides the very best service to the people of that district. The complaint I make to the minister is not in connection with the main line but in the extension of these facilities to the outlying contiguous sections. In these days settlers expect some conveniences; they are not satisfied as they were twenty years ago to get along without telegraphic and telephonic communication. I can name twenty communities in my own constituency which are asking to be connected with this main trunk line, and the reason offered is that insufficient attention is given to the extension of these lines. The contention is that the main line is so overloaded that it will not carry a greater load. I do not know whether that is so or not, but it does seem to me that if it is overloaded some remedy could be found to give the constituencies throughout that country the telephonic communication to which I think they are entitled. I have twenty or twenty-five requests for extensions, and it seems to me it would be good business for the government to give more consideration than they have been giving in the past to the extension of these lines. We are pleased to get extensions 
from time to time, but let me tell the minister that he is by no means keeping up with the public demand. It seems to me that when you consider how the expenses in connection with all branches of the government have expanded we are not expecting too much and our requests are no more exorbitant than they are in other parts of the Dominion. If the minister would give the same consideration to that part of the country that he does to the matter of wharves and breakwaters in the province of Quebec and the lower parts of the Dominion, he would extend the telegraph service in British Columbia.


Mr. EVANS:: I can well appreciate the difficulties of these settlers who have not telephonic communication, and I understand the contention of the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Fraser). On the prairies, however, we do this work ourselves, and I cannot help but think that this is a provincial matter and should be handled by the province of British Columbia.


James Charles Brady: No, no.


John Evans: Why should the province not pay for it? We in Saskatchewan have never had help from the Dominion government in this respect, although the territory is very extensive; in British Columbia, however, telephonic communication is furnished without the expenditure of one dollar by the province, and we spend money in other parts of the country for many things which are provincial or municipal in character. It seems to me that this is a matter of a provincial character and should not be charged to the country at large.


Lincoln Henry Jelliff: I wonder if the minster could tell us how the rates compare with the rates on provincial lines?


John Campbell Elliott: There is a regular tariff,
of course, for the use of these lines. With regard to the question raised by the hon. member for Rosetown, this has been the policy in British Columbia for many years, and these lines, as the hon. member for Cariboo says, are old pioneer telegraph lines, which hawe been extended from time to time. It has been suggested that we should extend these lines more rapidly to keep pace with the development of the country, but I would remind the committee that development is taking place in this country so rapidly that we are just doing the best we can with the money placed at our disposal, in an endeavour to keep somewhere in sight of the development which is proceeding. I want to say to him further that I hope the government is sympathetic;

Supply-Public Works-Telegraph Lines
I know the officials of the department are, and I hope the minister is most sympathetic to these pioneers in British Columbia. Some instances	have	come to	the	notice of thedepartment which, were it not for taking up the time of the committee, I should like to recall to show how valuable are these lines to the existence of the settlements they serve. Perhaps I might just refer for a moment to an incident which occurred, I believe within the last year	and a	half, not	far	from Hazelton,to which	point	my hon.	friend has referred.A report	came	in that	the	line north of
Hazelton was grounded, and that they could not get through. An inspector started out at about four o'clock in the morning with a dog team in an endeavour to find out where the break had occurred. When he got about forty miles from Hazelton he found that the wire had been taken off the pole and grounded, clearly by some individual. It was not an accident; it had been done designedly. There had been a fresh snowfall and he could not see any tracks, but he did find a little path through the bush which he followed to an Indian wigwam not far from the point where the line was grounded. He knocked at the door without getting any response. When he opened the door and went in he found an Indian, the lone inhabitant of that district, almost in a dying condition. He had no neighbours and no* means of getting into communication with the outside world; he had enough strength only to crawl over and ground the telegraph wire and crawl back to his shanty. The inspector put him on the sleigh and took him down to the hospital in Hazelton, where it was thought he had but a very slight chance of getting better. However, with the nursing and medical attention he received, in about three weeks he was able to go back to his shanty. Certainly his life was saved as a result of his being able to make this contact with the outside world. Many instances of that kind have come to the notice of the department which show how very useful this service is. However, my hon. friend will understand that if you have a line going north and south, what you might call a trunk line, it is pretty difficult to extend your services, with anything like the same efficiency, by means of branch lines.


James Charles Brady: In reply to the hon. member for Rosetown, I think it might be advisable to read this little paragraph in order to convince the house that these telegraph lines should be continued for some time yet. It states the case very well:
The Dominion government telegraph service was commenced with the object of furnishing
rapid communication in outlying districts where the amount of business was so small that commercial companies would not enter the field, but -where the public interests required that there should be communication.


John Campbell Elliott: From what is my hon.
friend reading?


James Charles Brady: I am reading from the Canada Year Book in connection with the telegraph systems inaugurated by the Dominion government. I want to urge that you should not doubt for one moment the advisability of continuing the federal telegraph system throughout these vast areas which must depend upon this government. The hon. member for Rosetown said that the prairie provinces maintained provincial telegraph and telephone lines, and he assumed that it would be proper for the province of British Columbia to do the same thing, but I contend that the hon. member has not been informed with regard to the objects of the Dominion telegraph system; he does not understand the situation. We do not desire to make money; we want to develop Canada; we want to place in these vast areas the men and women who in the years to come will bring immense returns for *what we do. You, Mr. Minister, are the agent; you have the power; you have the vision and the foresight. Aik we ask is that you see to it that where there is a settlement or a body of people, you carry out the policy of extending the lines both north and south and east and west. Keep to that policy, and whether or not the present government is defeated, you will have the gratitude of hundreds of these people.


Alan Webster Neill: I must congratulate the hon. member for Vancouver North, and myself for having converted the hon. member for Skeena. Ten minutes ago he expressed his satisfaction with the sale of these lines by the government.


James Charles Brady: Pardonnez-moi, which I
think is good French; I asked whether or not there was any danger to the development of the country and the safeguarding of the people through handing over these lines to a private company. That was the question; I think the minister will corroborate that statement.


Alan Webster Neill: But before that you made the statement that you would be satisfied.


John Campbell Elliott: Let us get some items
through.


John Anderson Fraser: The minister has related an instance in which the telegraph line was the means of saving the life of an Indian inhabitant of that part of the country. The reason we are asking for the extension of these
1480	_	COMMONS
Supply-Public Works-Telegraph Lines
lines is, in many eases, to save the lives of the people who may desire to locate 25, 30 or 50 miles from the main line. Now I am going to relate an incident which will illustrate what the minister is doing when he refuses to give that service; and by the way this happened at a point called Green lake, for which I have been asking this line since 1025. This is a cattle country, with considerable timber. As a young man was riding after cattle, pushing his horse pretty fast, as is the custom, the horse passed too close to a tree and the man's knee was caught between the side of the horse and the tree. His leg was wrenched and the femur was broken off short at the hip bone. He was unable to get out of his saddle but he knew that his neighbour's children were chasing cattle nearby. He rode over and found the two girls, one fifteen and the other sixteen years of age, and told them his condition. They were unable to lift him out of the saddle, but they led the horse to a tree, threw a rope over a limib and hoisted him out of the saddle. Having done that, the girls rode twentydive miles to the telephone office to get in touch with a doctor. The girls made him as comfortable as they could, but he was forced to remain in that condition for twelve hours before the doctor arrived to take him to the nearest hospital, to reach which he was forced to travel a distance of 125 miles. Imagine a man in that condition, having to pay for the conveyance of himself to the hospital, having to pay the doctor to come and see him, and then having to remain in the hospital for five or six weeks. We want to extend the telephonic communication to these people so that they will be able to take care of just such emergencies as that. Many such emergencies arise from time to time, and there are other oases of ordinary sicknesses and so on. The instances pointed out by the minister are to the credit of the service, but he should bear in mind that there are others who are not served and who are just as anxious for and just as much entitled to telephonic service as are the rest of the people.


Mr. MILLAR:: The hon. member for Rose-town (Mr. Evans) is not very well informed regarding this matter, although the committee has been receiving some information. It does seem rather surprising that a service is rendered free of cost to some sections, while other sections have to pay. Some fine descriptions have been given and tales told about the wonderful service which is given and the number of lives saved, but if the Indian were dying near a telegraph or telephone line which had been paid for as it is 
paid for in other provinces, I think the message would go over just the same. The members from British Columbia are asking that this service be extended, and perhaps I would do the same if I were receiving a free service. I see no reason for its being extended in one province simply because it has been carried on for many years. The minister was asked what the service cost, and he told the committee that there was a tariff but he stopped right there. I would like to know what the charges are.


John Campbell Elliott: There is nothing free-the Indian receives a free service.


John Millar: How do the rates compare with private services?


John Campbell Elliott: I understand they are
about the same.


John Millar: The same charges?


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


John Millar: Have they been paid?


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


John Millar: What are the receipts?


John Campbell Elliott: The receipts for last year amounted to $298,000.


John Millar: It has been stated that this service is being carried on in districts where private companies will not extend tl^eir lines, therefore it would appear that it is being rendered at a loss to the government.


John Campbell Elliott: Certainly.


John Millar: These members should
point out to their provincial government the fact that such an extension should be made, either by private concerns or by the provincial government. I do not see why this should be done by the government in British Columbia alone.


James Charles Brady: It is done all over Canada.


John Millar: Is this service rendered in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba?


John Campbell Elliott: A similar service is
rendered in the extreme west and the extreme east; on the Atlantic and on the Pacific.


John Millar: That is not all over Canada.


John Campbell Elliott: Certain other services are
rendered to the prairie provinces; they are not being neglected.


John Millar: They are paying for nearly everything they receive, and this service is being rendered at a loss to the public treasury.

Supply-Public Works-Telegraph Lines


James Charles Brady: It is not rendered at a loss.


John Campbell Elliott: The reward will come.


John Millar: I suppose in Heaven. In
what province is this service rendered?


John Campbell Elliott: As far as a reward is concerned, I have the assurance of the hon. member for Slceena (Mr. Brady) that we will receive our reward during the-


John Millar: Next election.


John Campbell Elliott: -during the time this
government will be operating these lines, probably for the next six or eight years. I do not think my hon. friend would suggest that this service should be discontinued after it has been in operation since before the province of British Columbia existed.


John Anderson Fraser: Since 1865.


John Millar: Having enjoyed the service that long they should be willing to pay for it.


John Campbell Elliott: My hon. friend should
be the first to realize that this government does not go backward, and we should not consider cutting off a service which has been so long in existence.


John Millar: Would the minister be
willing to extend the same service to the other provinces?


James Charles Brady: If they need it.


John Millar: There are many outlying
districts in the other provinces into which private companies will not go.


John Campbell Elliott: The matter will be given
consideration.


Lincoln Henry Jelliff: Can the minister tell the
committee how much the government has expended on these lines up to the present time? What has been the cost to the government?


John Campbell Elliott: I have not that information with me, but I shall be glad to furnish it to my hon. friend.


Lincoln Henry Jelliff: Can the minister give the
committee any specific information as to the rates charged for the service?


John Campbell Elliott: I shall be glad to supply
my hon. friend with the tariff.


Lincoln Henry Jelliff: What is the annual expenditure for this service, for upkeep and everything?


John Campbell Elliott: It is not summarized in
the draft which I have. If my hon. friend
will look at the estimates, he will find on page 69, in the paragraph covering telegraph and telephone lines, an indication of the cost. It runs to about $721,000.


John Anderson Fraser: For Alberta and Saskatchewan, $131,000.


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


Lincoln Henry Jelliff: How much for British
Columbia?


John Campbell Elliott: I figure it at about $223,000.


Lincoln Henry Jelliff: I would like the minister, at his convenience, to let me have the entire amount expended on these lines.


Mr. BROWN:: Would it not be well to
let the item stand until we get that information? There has been a good deal of discussion in regard to the matter on the part of those who are immediately interested, and it is time that some of the rest of us took an interest in it.


James J. Donnelly: How many applications has the minister had for extensions? We have in this case only twenty-five applications for extensions, as one hon. member says, and this is a service established at no cost to them, because all they pay for is the service. In some of the districts of which I know there would be 2,500 instead of twenty-five applications.


Alan Webster Neill: That is due to the modesty
of British Columbia.


James Charles Brady: Only legitimate extensions
are asked for.


John Millar: I think we ought to have
this information. We should let the item stand until we receive it.


John Campbell Elliott: I thought I made the
matter reasonably clear before, and when it has been stated at least half a dozen times during the discussion that they do pay for the service, I am rather surprised that my hon. friends should speak as if we had all the time been discussing the matter on the basis of a free service.


James J. Donnelly: It is a free line. They do not build the line; all they pay for is the service.


John Campbell Elliott: What else would they
pay for?


James J. Donnelly: In our district we build the line and pay for the service as well.


John Campbell Elliott: If my hon. friends will
look at page 69 they will find under telegraph and telephone lines what has been the cost

1482	COMMONS
Supply-Public Works-Miscellaneous
for 1929-30 and 1930-31. I should be glad to supply them with the information and with the tariff. I have no objection to further discussion if it serves any reasonable purpose; I am entirely in the hands of the committee, but I think we should make some progress in passing these items.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous-Accounts branch-salaries of agents, clerks, travelling and contingent expenses of outside service, $28,000.
Mr. KAISER:: Do I understand that items under the heading of "miscellaneous" have reference to the entire work on harbours and rivers and telegraph lines, or do they refer only to British Columbia?


John Campbell Elliott: The items under "miscellaneous" have reference to the whole Dominion.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: When the items for harbours were going through I understood that an opportunity would be presented to any member unable to be present at that time to revert to any particular matter he might desire to discuss. Is that the understanding?


John Campbell Elliott: Is it the suggestion of
my hon. friend that at any time we can go back to items we have passed?


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: I am informed that when
the items for the harbours of Ontario, for instance, were being passed, it was agreed that any member not then present might revert to some of those items under the general discussion which might take place on this item.


John Campbell Elliott: I have never heard of
such an understanding and my hon. friend surely realizes how impossible it would be ever to get through the estimates if we were likely to have them reopened at any time so that any hon. member could revert to them.


George Halsey Perley: I do not think that is quite fair. When we are passing Ontario and Quebec items it has often been the custom to hold a general item in order that members who do not happen to be present may have an opportunity to ask for information about matters in which they are interested.
I do not remember whether or not that was distinctly understood on this occasion, but it has been done many times and it is the custom of the house that it should be done, not for the purpose of blocking the estimates or of taking up again those that 'have been passed, but in order that a member who was not present at the time the estimates were going

through-and the minister knows we allowed them to go through quite quickly-may have an opportunity of asking reasonable questions about items in his constituency. I am sure the minister will not prevent my hon. friend from doing so.


Mr. CHAPLIN:: What percentage of this estimate is being asked for now? The point is that all we are asking is for a certain percentage of the estimate and it stands to reason the balance of the estimate has to be passed a little later.


John Campbell Elliott: My hon. friend will understand that the other portion was passed before; this is the balance.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: I am not asking for permission to revert to a particular item or that an item be struck out or otherwise. I desire to make some reference to certain matters in regard to harbours in my constituency and to make some comments upon the methods resorted to by the government in order to carry out or to block certain things in my constituency. I was unable to do so because of my absence when the particular item was before the committee. This is an item under the head of "miscellaneous." Part of that expenditure is to be applied 'to work that is being contemplated in Ontario and I ask whether I am permitted to make some comments upon conditions surrounding works that are being done in the constituency I represent.


John Campbell Elliott: I do not want to restrict discussion in any way. As the hon. member for Argenteuil has already suggested, it has frequently been the custom for a member who is interested in some particular item, and who desires that it shall be held up until he has had an opporunity of discussing it, to mention it to whoever may be leading the opposition at the particular time and ask him to request that the item stand until the member can have that opportunity. I think that has been the practice. No such request was made with regard to any of the items respecting harbours or rivers in either Ontario or Quebec and we have very fortunately passed all those items, so that the appropriation is now passed. My hon. friend will understand that if one item is held up, it holds up the whole vote. It is desirable to follow some reasonable routine of taking the items as they appear in the estimates. Has my hon. friend some item which he wishes to discuss and which can reasonably come under any of these headings? .


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: If the minister has no
objection I will proceed until I am informed I am discussing something that has no bearing on the minister's department.


John Campbell Elliott: I cannot tell until I know what the matter is.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: This is a proposed appropriation for work in the minister's department under t!he heading of " miscellaneous." We are asked to spend that money. Now I want to draw the attention of the minister and of this house to certain matters which are, I think, very pertinent and should be ventilated in connection with this item. I refer to the harbour of the city of Oshawa. Thirty-two years ago the city of Oshawa asked the Liberal government of that day to undertake the building of a harbour at Oshawa. The work was started at that time, and has gone on for thirty-two years, sometimes by leaps and bounds, and at other times with long periods of inactivity. The only time that any activity is visible is when an election is in sight. We can always tell when an election is coming because then there is something in the estimates for the harbour at Oshawa. I repeat, thirty-two years ago we started to build this harbour for a population 'that has now grown to 35.000 or 40,000, if you include the surrounding area. During the past few years we have been building the harbour at the rate of about fifty feet per year. A few days ago, in bold headlines spread right across the page, our paper states "that the dock at Oshawa harbour collapses." Part of the work which this government started is falling down at the rate of one hundred feet a year, and the work at the other end is proceeding at the rate of fifty feet a year. I would ask the minister to ge't his pencil and figure out how long it will be before the haribour at Oshawa is completed at that rate, when the work is falling down twice as fast as it is being built up.


John Millar: How much revenue has the government received from that harbour?


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: At one time we had a fairly good harbour. We had ships bringing in coal and taking out grain, a reasonably busy harbour. The government of the day said: We will take over this harbour and build you a harbour that is equal to the requirements of the city of Oshawa. The government started the work. The first thing that happened was that the old pier fell down, but nothing was done about it. Next year the buildings that were there were burned down, but nothing was done about that. Next year the coal industry ceased; nothing was done.
11, 1930	l483
Supply-Public Works-Miscellaneous
Next year the grain industry ceased; nothing was done about that, and so it went on until there was nothing left around the harbour but a crop of bulrushes, and in the fall of each year they burn them down. From my administration as mayor of the city of Odhawa I know this: I had two or three opportunities to bring to Oshawa industries that would have been of vast benefit to the city and the whole district if we had had good harbour facilities, but here we are still sending delegations down to plead with the government to finish the harbour, around which has grown up a population of 35,000 to 40,000 people. Well do I remember that Sir William Mulock promised us this harbour. Then we had a visit from a very distinguished Minister of Public W orks, the Hon. J. Israel Tarte, who in 1902 came to Oshawa and looked over the harbour.


John Campbell Elliott: I think my hon. friend is going pretty far afield. I have no objection, but do I understand him to be objecting to the vote that has been passed for Oshawa harbour?	.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: You bet I am.


John Campbell Elliott: You object to it?


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: I object to it very strongly.
I object to a harbour that requires an expenditure of $250,000 receiving only $16,000. The amount of the vote is absolutely hopeless and will simply mean that the work will drag along in the future as it has in the past. I object to this vote because it is far too small.


John Campbell Elliott: You do not wish it cut out?


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: I do not want it to be cut out but I am pointing out to the minister that it will take from $160,000 to $200,000 to finish the work which has been dragging on so long that the people of the city of Oshawa are absolutely discouraged.
There is another harbour in my constituency, Whitby. This year a vote of $8,000 is passed for Whitby harbour and $16,000 for Oshawa. These two harbours were formerly very busy, and the votes are entirely inadequate. I want to know who it is that finds his way to this government and gets these small votes put in the estimates. I want the minister to tell me whether it is right that one of the highest paid civil servants in the Dominion of Canada should exercise that function. Is the only avenue to this government through the civil servants of this country ? In 1926 we had an election and a gentleman in the person of Mr. W. H. Moore was my opponent. He was defeated, and then this government put him at the head of the tariff
1484	COMMONS
Supply-Public Works-Miscellaneous
board. I will say that I think the government made a very good choice. I am not complaining about Mr. Moore's appointment at all to the chairmanship of the tariff board. That sort of thing is happening in other constituencies; the defeated Liberal candidate has the ear of the government and becomes the head man politically although appointed to an office of emolument under the crown. It should be the Liberal party of the riding who should have the say in such matters. I would have no complaint at all if the president of the Liberal party in my riding and those associated with him came to this government to point out the needs of my constituency, and to get what assistance they could. I would be there, if possible, to help them. On principle I object to the practice that I have mentioned. The people of Whitby, a neighbouring town in my constituency, desired the government to make a grant to Whitby harbour. That was a perfectly legitimate request. Upon one occasion they had an enthusiastic gathering at the chamber of commerce and Mr. Moore, the presiding officer of the tariff board, the highest paid civil servant of Canada, came and made an address. There was talk at that time of an airport being built on the lake. Mr. Moore, as I said came and made an address, and he is reported in the press as follows:
Whitby's prospects, as a probable site for Camp Borden, were first dealt with by Mr Moore who as chairman of the tariff board, has played a large part in laying the town's damns before the government.
H? had a conference recently with the Minister or Defence and was assured that if Camp Borden were to be moved, the site found here would be given every consideration.
In the matter of harbour improvements the speaker pointed out that when the town council sought to get certain work done, the government had requested him to ascertain the opinion ot the local board of trade in the matter.
Now, that is a remarkable situation. One could understand a man who had tried to represent the constituency, and who was being groomed at home for the next election, and pardon the indiscretion, but when the government start to groom one of their own civil servants to enter an election contest, don't you think it is time for Canada to take cognizance of the fact; don't you think somebody should either call the government down or call down the civil servant who obtrudes himself into such a situation?


James J. Donnelly: Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. I want to know if we are on vote 148, for harbours and rivers, or

on the budget? It seems to me that the hon. member is giving the committee an election address. If he wants to do that let him wait until the budget comes down.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: This is not budget talk, Mr. Chairman. I am talking about the way votes in connection with harbours have been scattered by this government throughout the province of Ontario and other parts of the Dominion. I might go on and show how they almost met him with a brass band and conducted him over the air port site.


Mr. VALLANCE:: Mr. Chairman, has not a point of order been raised?


John Frederick Johnston: The point of order raised by the hon. member for Willow Bunch (Mr. Donnelly) is as to whether or not the hon. gentleman's remarks are relevant to the item before the committee. Vote 148 has to do with public works of a miscellaneous nature from one end of Canada to the other, and I think the understanding was that he should have the right to discuss a certain matter before this vote was disposed of.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: The number of matters in connection with this vote which I might raise would consume more time than I know the minister wants to give to it. I am not complaining for myself at all, I am raising a question-


James Dew Chaplin: You will likely give him a good beating next time, too.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: I am not so sure about that, in view of all the plans and schemes that have been formulated to carry this civil servant into the house. If they are at all effective, I do not know what will become of the little old doctor in Oshawa. I do not blame this civil servant at all for being ambitious.


James Dew Chaplin: Serve notice on him, doctor, that when we get in we will put him where he belongs.


An hon. MEMBER:: That is good Tory doctrine.


James Dew Chaplin: You yourself would not stand for a civil servant doing the same thing.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: This ambitious civil servant even aspired to the portfolio of finance, apparently. I find a newspaper boldly stating:
Some think Mr. King should go outside his cabinet and parliament for a new Minister of r l nance.	Among those of this persuasion
probably is Mr. Moore, chairman of the advisory tariff board.


Mr. YOUNG (Weyburn):: No chance.

Supply-Public Works-Miscellaneous


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: The comment continues:
He obviously is enjoying his present job, and doing it about as well as circumstances will permit, but he has political ambitions.


James J. Donnelly: What paper is the hon. member quoting from? Is it the Orange Sentinel?


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: For the past two or three years he has been paying the expense of keeping up a political organization and political rooms, and he is doing so now. Three months ago nothing was so sure among all the politieally-wise in my constituency as that the chairman of the advisory tariff board would at the first opportunity be called upon by the Prime Minister to take over the portfolio of finance. But when the hon. member for Regina (Mr. Dunning) was called in to take that portfolio this great dream was shattered. To show what is going on, and the government not saying anything about it -perhaps they are in collusion with the ambitious gentleman-I propose to quote from an ordinary everyday notice of church services.


John Livingstone Brown: What church?


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: What church?


John Livingstone Brown: Yes, it might interest a
whole lot of others.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: It is an old English church
down along the lake front, and in the little graveyard lies the bones of one of the aides-de-camp of Napoleon Bonaparte. This is called The Parish and Home and covers St. John's church, Port Whitby; St. George's church, Pickering; Dunbarton Mission. Then I read below the Sunday services:
St. John's II a.m. and 7 p.m.
Holy Communion, 1st Sunday 11 a.m.;
3rd Sunday 7 p.m.
St. George's-10.30 a.m. and 7 p.m.
Holy Communion, 2nd Sunday 10.30 a.m.
Dunbarton Mission-3 p.m.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Dispense.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: I do not complain of that
at all. In this good old church-


John Frederick Johnston: Order. The hon. member's remarks certainly are not relevant to the item before the committee. He has been given considerable latitude and I would suggest that he bring his remarks to bear more closely on the item before the committee.


An hon. MEMBER:: Perhaps they want
the government to build a church.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: I abide by your ruling, Mr. Chairman. The building of churches is something very foreign to this government. I
just wish to show how far this ambitious gentleman's friends go to boost him. This is the last item in this church notice:
The Whitby council and chamber of commerce are to be congratulated on securing government cooperation in repairing and improving the harbour. Mr. W. H. Moore has promised any help he can give to this end.
A survey of the harbour has already commenced.
That is in an ordinary church notice.


John Livingstone Brown: Rather an extraordinary
one.


Mr. ERNST:: They must have expected,
a tariff increase,	j


James Dew Chaplin: Do you call that afi
ordinary church notice?


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: It is an extraordinary church-notice. Now, I ask the government, do they' approve. or disapprove of the civil servants of this country interfering in matters of this kind?


Edward James Young: With churches?


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: Interfering with churches,
yes. I am very glad to know that certain members take notice of these things. I wish a good many more would associate themselves with such a fine institution, but I do not want to monopolize the space in these church notices unless they pay for it handsomely. I have endeavoured to bring these matters to the attention of the government. I claim that it is not right that civil servants should be allowed thus to get down into the political arena. If it is the intention of the chairman of the advisory tariff board to contest my constituency at the next election, I am perfectly willing that he should resign from the board and get into the game, for one thing is sure, that he or I or someone else will win, and in the course of the campaign, these matters can then be discussed.
I want the government to recognize the fact that we have not been treated fairly in regard to the matter of harbours along our lake front. The thirty or forty thousand people who live in the city of Oshawa and vicinity deserve better treatment than to have to wait about thirty years to get a little harbour which would cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars. They have had to stagger along, generation after generation, with the aid of a few thousand dollars so that they may build a few feet in the front and have a hundred feet drop off behind. This manner of dealing with the harbour at Oshawa is a discredit to this country and to thi3 government. If the
1486	COMMONS
Supply-Public Works-Miscellaneous
government wishes to lay the matter before the people of Oshawa it will find one man ready to meet the issue; I have always favoured the harbour and I have always tried to get it. Years ago I came to Ottawa dozens and dozens of times to lay this matter before the government; we in the county of Ontario have had to wait thirty-five years to get a little bit of harbour while other sections in Canada can get $300,000 in one year without any difficulty for a harbour to accommodate 250 people. Ontario is not being treated fairly by this government, and the government knows it. We should receive better treatment in regard to these matters.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maintenance and operation of water storage dams on Ottawa river and tributaries, surveys in connection therewith and settlement of land damages, $40,000.
George Halsey Perley: Is this work increasing year by year, or are the expenses about the same each year? Is the government enlarging the storage capacity or is it building other dams; does it intend to do that?


John Campbell Elliott: We are not enlarging them. You will notice in the estimates that last year we asked for $50,000 and this year we .asked for only $40,000.


George Halsey Perley: How much did
you spend last year?


John Campbell Elliott: At the time the estimates were compiled it seemed that we would spend in the vicinity of $40,000; I find that we have spent about $30,000 in the last year.


Mr. LUCAS:: What is the purpose of these storage dams?


John Campbell Elliott: My hon. friend will no
doubt remember the discussion which took place a year ago. These are dams which have for their object the regulation and flow of the Ottawa river.


George Halsey Perley: Who decides
about holding back the water and releasing it afterwards? Is that done by the department without any outside advice or is it done as requested from time to time by the mill owners on the river or by the people who use this water? I am curious to know who makes the decision as to how this water will be held back and when it will be released.


John Campbell Elliott: The keepers of the dams keep accurate measurements of the water 
gauges; they report to the department daily, and the engineer makes the recommendations. He forms his opinion as to the course we must pursue.


George Halsey Perley: Do the people
who use this water not make suggestions, or are their wishes not considered by the department?


John Campbell Elliott: Very few suggestions are
made by them. It happens occasionally that suggestions are made, and any (suggestion made from any quarter is considered. I must say however that the gauges are the real guides which the engineer follows.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National Gallery of Canada, $130,000.
William Thomas Lucas: What is this money used for?


John Campbell Elliott: This amount was requested by the board of trustees to provide for the operation and the maintenance, *workshop, supplies, upkeep of premises, purchase of works of art, management of exhibitions and the usual travelling scholarship of the National Gallery of Canada. The amount is the same as it was last year.


William Thomas Lucas: How much was spent for
the purchase of works of art?


John Campbell Elliott: 


George Halsey Perley: At this stage I
wish to inquire about the war memorials. Is this the proper time in which to direct some questions in that regard?


John Campbell Elliott: I think it is.


George Halsey Perley: For several years we have considered the question of providing a proper building to house the war memorials. The minister will remember that I spoke about it several times in the house, and the Prime Minister has on occasions led us to think that the government might construct a building for the purpose. These war memorials weire not properly cared for and I believe lately they have been placed in the basement of the auditorium. We were told last year that they were perfectly secure and would not deteriorate. I want to urge upon the minister the necessity of providing a proper building for them. I believe Canada has a collection which compares favourably with that of any other country; I have been told that, and I believe it is true. These memorials were collected after a great deal of trouble by a branch of the overseas department at the head of which was the present Lord Beaverbrook. He devoted a great deal of time and attention to this work and got
some of the very best artists to take part in painting the pictures. The memorials depict scenes of a military character-battles and so on. It is a pity that the people of Canada should have this wonderful collection of war memorials housed in the basement of an auditorium where they cannot be seen. Although it is said they will not deteriorate I doubt very much whether that could be the fact; it seems to me that they require more care than they could possibly receive under such conditions. I wish to ask the minister what consideration the government has given to this question. Does he not think that these memorials are of value to Canada and should be carefully housed? Does the government consider that they are of no consequence and not worth bothering about? I wish the minister would be good enough to tell me his position and the position of the government, and whether we can look for the construction of a building for the purpose of housing this wonderful collection.


John Campbell Elliott: I agree with the remarks
of my hon. friend, with the exception of his statement that the basement of the building is not a suitable place for these memorials. Apart from that I thoroughly agree with everything the hon. member has said. The war memorials owned by Canada, as my hon. friend has just said, comprise perhaps the most valuable collection of the kind that can be found anywhere. I think he realizes, from the discussion he has had with the Prime Minister and the members of the government, how highly they value these memorials and that they realize the necessity, at the earliest opportunity that funds can be made available for the purpose, of having them housed in a national gallery which will be a credit to Canada and which will be a suitable place in which to keep these memorials. That is about as far as we can go. The building in which they are now housed is an ideal place from the standpoint of being fireproof and having the moisture and temperature regulated. It is said by the experts in the gallery that there is no more suitable place for the housing of these memorials than the place in which they are now kept.


George Halsey Perley: Are they being
cared for by the staff of the national gallery?


John Campbell Elliott: Yes, and they are the
kind of pictures which do not lend themselves readily to circulation; they are not the type of pictures which, for many reasons, should be circulated freely.


George Halsey Perley: I agree with the minister, but surely they should be put in a place where the people can see them.


John Campbell Elliott: Quite so, but there is not a place available in Ottawa at present where these pictures could be placed on exhibition which would be fireproof and which would have regulated temperature and moisture.


George Halsey Perley: Does the minister think there is any more likelihood of such a building being provided now than there was ten years ago?


John Campbell Elliott: Oh, yes, there is no doubt
about that; finances are improving all the time.


William Gordon Ernst: We are coming into power.


John Campbell Elliott: I would hope they would
not have to wait until then.


William Gordon Ernst: They will not find it so long as has been the case in the past.


John Campbell Elliott: This is an important
matter and it should be attended to, if not immediately, then at least within a reasonable time." That is the view of the government and it is hoped that a national gallery will be erected in the vicinity of the research building. There has been no commital made at the present time, but I can assure my hon. friend that it is receiving every consideration and it is hoped that provision will be made for it long before the time suggested by my hon. friend.


Mr. SPEARMAN:: Perhaps the minister
will recall that last year I brought to the attention of the committee certain complaints which had reached me as to the method by which purchases of pictures, sculpture and other works of art were being made. It was suggested then, and I may say quite frankly that it has been suggested since this session opened, that at the present time these purchases are not made in a fair way. By that I mean that the works of art which are selected are not representative of the different schools of art throughout Canada and do not fairly represent the progress of art in this country. It has been complained that the purchases are confined very largely to the products of one or two small cliques of artists within Canada, and that artists and sculptors who belong to other schools of art or who are not intimately connected with these small coteries of men and women have no opportunity of having their works purchased by the government or of having them displayed in
1488	COMMONS
Supply-Public TVorks-Miscellaneous
the gallery. I should like to know from the minister just what method is followed in selecting the works of art; who are responsible for the selections, and whether any such complaints have come to his personal attention.


John Campbell Elliott: I do not think a year goes by without the trustees of any gallery receiving many representations from those who are exponents of the various schools of art, and I do not think the Canadian trustees are an exception. I do think, however that we are singularly fortunate in the personnel of the trustees of this gallery. They are connoisseurs of art, and I believe they do extremely good work. I think I know to what my hon. friend refers; there was quite an active controversy a few years ago between the followers of what was termed the school of seven, and those who were not so favourable to that particular school. I do believe that the trustees of the gallery, who arc from different parts of the country and who are sympathetic to all the different schools of art which are being developed in Canada, have arrived at a fairly good solution of the problem. This department is responsible for the financing of the gallery; my hon. friend will understand that under the National Gallery Act the trustees are appointed, and they conduct the affairs of the gallery, making requests to the minister in charge of the department for the appropriations which they believe they should have. Perhaps they do not always get all that they ask for, but we have been able to get -along with them on very amicable terms, and I do think that the gallery is running perhaps more smoothly at the present time. I believe that the Canadian gallery is advancing in the estimation of the followers of the various schools of art throughout Can-ada, and has advanced considerably in recent years. I fancy my hon. friend knows the names of the trustees; they are outstanding gentlemen who give their time gratuitously, and some of them at any rate have made quite generous contributions to the gallery.


Alfred Speakman: The minister will quite appreciate the fact that X do not pose in any way as a connoisseur of art, nor am I bringing forward any cricticism on my own behalf. Representations have been made to me, as I assume they have been made to other members of the house. However, I would like to ask one further question. I agree at once with the minister's remarks as to the standing of the men who are trustees; I am familiar 
with their names, and I know they possess extremely high qualifications. I should like to know if the trustees themselves take any active interest in the purchases or whether these are consummated under the authority of the art directors.
M-r. ELLIOTT: That is a very pertinent question, and I am glad my hon. friend has asked it, because no doubt there has been some misconception as to how that worked cut. Every purchase, I think, without exception to my knowledge, has been submitted to and passed upon by the board of trustees at a regularly advertised meeting, before the purchase has been completed.


Alfred Speakman: That is very important.


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


Mr. BIRD:: Have the trustees of the
national gallery made any attempt to distribute the benefits to be derived from that institution by means of photographs or the newer processes of etching? This gallery should try to spread the benefits of art into domestic surroundings. There are many humble people who have not sufiicient means to indulge in art in the sense we know of it, but these pictures could be duplicated by modern processes of etching, and distributed. At times I have found it very difficult to obtain copies of works of art, especially etchings, and I do not think it is right to hoard up works in any institution.


John Campbell Elliott: I welcome very much the suggestion made by the hon. member, as well as the interest that he and other members of the committee are taking in this subject. This is a much more important subject than most people realize, and even a consideration from a commercial standpoint has proven that the Canadian national gallery is a good investment. The information I have been able to obtain is to the effect that the purchases made by the trustees are worth to-day considerably more than they cost. They have increased the distribution of etchings of paintings by outstanding Canadian artists, and in this distribution all the schools of art have been considered. Distribution is made to the schools and art colleges throughout the country, and in addition to that the gallery has lent a number of the very best pictures to various art organizations from Halifax to Vancouver. Perhaps it would be well to read a paragraph from the annual report of the board of trustees, as follows:
A departure of far reaching importance which has taken place this year-

Supply-Public Works-Miscellaneous
That is the year 1928-29.
-is the commencement of a series of reproductions in colour of important national gallery pictures. The primary object in undertaking this series was to provide an adequate basis for art teaching in the Canadian schools drawn from the national art collection. The reproductions have, however, proved enormously popular with the general public also and it has been found necessary to extend largely the original program.
The prints are issued in two sizes, approximately 8 x 10 and x 3J inches. Besides making available to the people of Canada at very low cost, colour reproduction of Canadian pictures, hitherto unobtainable anywhere, the reproductions of foreign art are superior to most prints produced abroad.
The following subjects are ready for distribution:-
The Jack Pine, by Tom Thomson.
The Northern River, by Tom Thomson.
Village in the Laurentians, by Clarence A. Gagnon, R.C.A.
Winter Landscape, by Cornelius Krieghoff.
Joseph Brant, by George Romney.
Jeffrey, Lord Amherst, by Sir Joshua Reynolds. P.R.A.
In Suffolk, by Arnesby Brown. R.A.
The Solemn Land, by J. E. H. MacDonald, A.R.C.A.
The Flood Gate, by Homer Watson, R.C.A.
Others will follow from time to time.


Thomas William Bird: I think it would be a good thing if the trustees would cooperate with some of the large departmental stores. Throughout western Canada I suppose the T. Eaton Company is responsible for most of the art which appears upon the walls of our homes, and such stores would be of great assistance in the distribution of these etchings.


John Campbell Elliott: Those stores are being
stocked with etchings at a very reasonable price with a view to encouraging and fostering interest in Canadian art.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National monument on Connaught place, $140,000.
Edmond Baird Ryckman: Will the minister give us an explanation of this item?


John Campbell Elliott: This amount of $75,000 is required for the erection of a national commemorative war monument on Connaught place, Ottawa.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: The vote is for $140,000.


John Campbell Elliott: Yes, $140,000 is required altogether, of which $50,000 is a revote. This work is being performed by Mr. Vernon March of Goddendens, England, at a contract price of $135,000 for bronze work plus $10,000 for two additional figures. The granite pedestal and foundation work is to be done
by the department at an estimated cost of $50,000, making the total cost of the monument approximately $195,000. The figure is made up as follows:
Amount of contract. .	.	. $185,000Two additional figures.	.	.	.	10,000

Less:
Expenditure	1927-28.	.	.	.	10,000Expenditure	1928-29.	.	.	.	20,000Expenditure	1929-30.	.	.	.	25,000
55,000

The expenditures for 1929-30 amounted to only $22,500, although it was estimated that they would amount to $25,000.
Item agreed to.
River gauging and metering, $30,000.


William Gordon Ernst: Is any of this gauging to be done in the province of Nova Scotia?


John Campbell Elliott: No.


Mr. ROSS (Kingston):: Where is the work to be done?


John Campbell Elliott: It is done on the St.
Lawirence, Rainy river, Fraser river and St. Maurice river.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and inspections, $125,000.
Edmond Baird Ryckman: Will the minister tell us generally how this money is spent? Is it for employees of the department or for whom? Who are the surveyors and the inspectors? The minister realizes that $120,000 is a large amount. Why make it $125,000?


John Campbell Elliott: This amount is required
t-o provide for surveys and inspections that may be necessary during the fiscal year 1930-31, in connection with harbour, river, slide, boom and bridge works and other services under the control of the Public Works department. Perhaps I might exemplify. A deputation was here this morning with regard to some new work wanted on harbours and rivers. We send out an engineer to look over the site and make a report upon it. This is an increase of $5,000 over the amount voted last year. The demands are growing. Out of our appropriation of $120,000 we expended last year $119,843 to February 28 and the amount is always fully expended. This covers the cost of the engineers.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: What is the chief item
of cost? The engineers and surveyors would
1490	COMMONS
Supply-Public Works-Miscellaneous
be our own men paid by salary. There would, of course, be travelling expenses and it seems to me travelling expenses bulk very large when you come to $125,000.


John Campbell Elliott: This is mostly travelling
exipenses and labour the engineer or surveyor will employ locally in assisting him to make examinations andl surveys. It refers to canoes, boats, transportation generally and labour assistance.


Mr. ERASER:: Can the minister give us
the provincial distribution of the vote?


John Campbell Elliott: I cannot very well give
it for 1929-30, as accurately as I can for 1928-29, but for 1928-29, the amount was $117,285, as follows:
Maritime provinces, $22,631.
Quebec, $39,907.
Ontario, $16,788.
Manitoba, $8,051.
British Columbia, $13,942.
Geodetic levelling, $7,432.
Generally, $8,528.


John Millar: What about Saskatchewan
and Alberta?


John Campbell Elliott: They would probably be
covered under the item of general expenditure.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Compassionate allowance to Captain Edward Hagarty who was retired in 1920 due to failing health prior to the coming into effect of the Public Service Retirement Act, $1,000.
John Campbell Elliott: Captain Edward Hagarty,
formerly first officer of the CjGR. Tyrian after about eighteen years' service on that vessel was forced to retire in March, 1920, due to ill health, just four months prior to the coming into effect of the Public Service Retirement Act under which he would have been entitled to receive an annuity for life of $331.50.
Due to continued ill health and privation Mr. Hagarty, who is now seventy-three years of age, is absolutely destitute and a charge on public charity.
He first joined the Tyrian June 22, 1902, as third officer with salary of $35 per month. He was promoted to second officer in 1908 and was again promoted January 1, 1915, to the position of first officer. In 1919 Mr. Hagarty was granted seven months' sick leave, four months at full pay and three months at $65 per month. He returned to duty January 1, 1920, and was paid his salary for the months of January and February. Mr. Hagarty reported that he was not able to remain with the ship and as he had received all the sick

leave that could be granted him under the regulations, there was nothing further that the department could do for him and he left the service March 6, 1920.


Mr. QUINN:: Does the minister think he
is doing full justice to this man in giving him $1,000? He has been retired since 1920 and the minister is now voting at the rate of $100 a year for ten years. I happen to know Captain Hagarty personally. I am not objecting to the vote; what I am objecting to is the paltry sum that is being granted. Why cannot the minister make an annual allowance for him, or does the minister intend to have this voted every year? Captain Hagarty is seventy-three years of age and in the natural course of events he will not live many years longer.


John Campbell Elliott: This is being done purely
as a matter of grace to a very efficient officer who gave his services to the department for a number of years and who very unfortunately, on account of the circumstances which I have related, was unable to remain in the service until the time when he would have received his annuity. It is a lump sum granted to him purely as a matter of grace with a view to affording him just that much assistance. I do not argue that it is adequate for his requirements, but it is what the department felt would be of some assistance to him and just about as far as they felt they could go.


Felix Patrick Quinn: I quite appreciate that, but
I have in mind a case I have had up before when the estimates of the Department of National Defence have been before the committee and I have asked each year since I came here in 1926 for some consideration to be shown a captain of the transport service who was continuously in service for fifty-two years and nine months. He is now eighty-five years of age. He was retired in 1919 with a gratuity of $900. That man to-day, owing to his age, and as one can readily understand, is unable to work. He was engaged first in the imperial service and afterwards in the Canadian transport service, after the Department of National Defence took over the imperial defence of Canada. I have been unable to make any impression upon the present Minister of National Defence and his predecessor, the Hon. E. M. Macdonald. I see that this can be done in the case of Captain Hagarty. I am not criticizing the vote. I know Captain Hagarty; I know he is a very deserving subject of compassion in this case, but I would like to see the vote a little larger and I would like the minister to use

Supply-Public Works-Miscellaneous
his good offices with the Minister of National Defence when he returns to help me to have some consideration shown to Captain John Linloff when the National Defence estimates are before the committee.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Public Works-chargeable to collection of revenue - graving docks - Champlain graving dock, $118,000.
James Dew Chaplin: Where is this graving
dock?


John Campbell Elliott: At Lauzon, near Quebec.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Esquimalt graving docks, $80,000.
George Halsey Perley: Is this for maintenance, or is it an annual sum required?


John Campbell Elliott: It is for maintenance and operation.


George Halsey Perley: This dock and
the Champlain graving dock and the Lome graving dock belong to the crown?


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Kingston-wharfs and bridges, $10,000.
Arthur Edward Ross: What work will
be done at Kingston?


John Campbell Elliott: This amount is required for the maintenance and operation of the combined roadway, wharfs and bridges over the Cataraqui river at Kingston, Ontario, for the fiscal year 1980-31. The details follow:
Requirements for 1930-31 One bridge master, 12 months at $125, $1,500. Three bridge motormen, 12 months at $100, $3,600.
One general service man, 10J months at $67.50, $708.75.
Electric power and lighting, $1,700.
Oil, waste, lamps, repairs, materials, etc.,

Earth filling on boulevard, 100 cubic yards at 75 cents, $75.
Masonry to be repointed, $150.
Lights and bells, warning system to be installed, $1,000.-Total, $9,733.75.


Arthur Edward Ross: There was a vote put in the estimates a few years ago for extending the stonework, but the amount has never been spent. Will the minister explain why?


John Campbell Elliott: I have no details here relating to it, but I shall be glad to get the information if my hon. friend desires it.


Arthur Edward Ross: The item was put in a few years ago. The deputy may be able to tell the minister why it was never spent.
The amount was voted, tenders were called and contracts awarded. Why was the work not done?


John Campbell Elliott: I am sorry, but the deputy does not seem able to assist me. But I will get my hon. friend that information.


George Halsey Perley: I am sure that the minister will get the information for my hon. friend and send it to him.


Arthur Edward Ross: I think the minister could tell me now. It was political interference that caused the withdrawal of that vote. May I be assured that the minister will give me the reasons why it was withdrawn?


John Campbell Elliott: You may be absolutely assured of that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Montreal river-dam at Latchford, $3,400.
George Halsey Perley: How long has this dam been at Latchford?


John Campbell Elliott: It has been there since 1920.


George Halsey Perley: Can the minister tell the committee why the Dominion government has a dam at Latchford on the Montreal river, which is an inland stream?


John Campbell Elliott: The Montreal river was dammed at Latchford to extend navigation to Mountain Chute, a distance of forty-one miles. It is a navigation project.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. Andrew's rapids-lock and dam, $25,000.
George Halsey Perley: Why is this costing so much more than in other years? Where is St. Andrew's rapids?


John Campbell Elliott: It is on the Red river, between Winnipeg and lake Winnipeg. This amount is required to provide for staff, and repairs and maintenance for the fiscal year 1930-31 in connection with St. Andrew's lock and dam on the Red river. The amount is made up as follows:
1929-30 1930-31
Salaries of staff	
$10,020	$8,045Office expenses	
330	330Lighting and heating	
2,180	2,180
Lock and dam (repairs and
maintenance)	 2,100	3,600
The main increase is due to the necessity of repainting the entire bridge superstructure, which has not been done since the construction of the bridge. That accounts for $7,000 for this year, as against $500 for painting last year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1492	COMMONS
Supply-Public Works-Miscellaneous
Telegraph and telephone services generally, $7,000.
William Thomas Lucas: What is the difference between this vote and the one on page 43 of the estimates?


John Campbell Elliott: This vote is for maintenance and operation. The other vote is for repairs and improvements.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil government - public works - salaries, $700,530; contingencies, $90,000.
George Halsey Perley: How much of
the 190,000 for contingencies was spent last year?


John Campbell Elliott: Up to the end of February we spent $82,000, and the deputy understands that since then the balance has been spent.


Mr. MacLAREN:: Will the minister state
what are the duties of the confidential messengers?


John Campbell Elliott: They are in the ministers' offices; some of them are boys, and some have grown old in the service.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Public Works-chargeable to income-public buildings, Nova Scotia-Amherst public building, improvements and repairs, $4,000.
Mr. iSMITH (Cumberland): Will the minister give some explanation of this item?
John Campbell Elliott: It is required for general
improvements and repairs to the public building at Amherst, as recommended by the chief architect in a memorandum dated April 22, 1929, as follows:
Mr. Russell, the district resident architect for Nova Scotia, reports that there will be a considerable amount of repair work required iu the above building during the coming fiscal year, as well as interior and exterior painting and decoration, and also new flooring, etc.
The cost to carry out the above works is estimated at $3,875. This is too large a sum to take out of the general vote for the maritime provinces, and I recommend that a special sum of $4,000 be provided in the estimates to carry out the above works.


Mr. SMITH (Cumberland):: Has the minister had any representations from the council or the board of trade or any other public body as to erecting a new post office building on a lot which was purchased nearly twenty years ago? The present building is very old and although repairs are being made to it from time to time it is far from satisfactory; it is clumsy and public accommodation there is very cramped at certain periods of the year, particularly around the Christmas season. I would think the time has almost arrived when the department should decide whether they

will continue spending money annually on this old building or erect a new one on the lot to which I have referred.
Mr. ELLIOTT': It is one of those cases where a new building would be justified, I think, from the reports we have; but I have just read the recommendation made to the department by the chief architect, and we are following it.


Robert Knowlton Smith: I hope the
minister is not misunderstanding me. I am not complaining of this expenditure at all.


John Campbell Elliott: No, I quite understand.


Robert Knowlton Smith: I think the
expenditure is needed if the old building is to be retained, but I believe the policy of the department should be changed. It is not economy to continue spending money on the old building year after year; for it is impossible to provide in it a satisfactory service for the locality.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Antigonish public building-addition, $12,000.
William Gordon Ernst: May we have some explanation of this item?


John Campbell Elliott: This is required for the
construction of an addition at the rear of the public building at Antigonish as a means of providing adequate accommodation for the public service.


Mr. GEARY:: What will the addition be?


John Campbell Elliott: A one-storey brick structure, 40 by 20 feet.


William Gordon Ernst: What is the present accommodation there? For instance, w'hat floor space have they available for the sorting of mail?


John Campbell Elliott: The building at present
is situated at the corner of College and Main streets and was originally purchased in 1883. Since then it has been remodelled and as it now stands it is 67 feet 6 inches long by 33 feet wide, brick construction with stone trimmings and a clock tower. A portion of the building 33 feet by 12 feet six inches is two storeys and basement in height, the remainder is three storeys and basement. The first floor is occupied by post office and customs examining warehouse; a portion of second floor by long room and private office for customs division, Department of National Revenue; the third floor is occupied by the caretaker.


William Gordon Ernst: I asked the minister because he knows I brought to his attention the urgent need of some additional post office accom-

Supply-Public Works-Buildings
modation at Liverpool in Queens county, due to the recent development there. The present facilities are absolutely inadequate. The building at Antigonish is far more adequate to the local needs than the building at Liverpool.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Arichat public building-improvements to lighting, $2,000.
James Dew Chaplin: What constituency?


John Campbell Elliott: Richmond-West Cape
Breton.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canso public building-improvements and repairs, $3,000.
James Dew Chaplin: The same constituency?


John Campbell Elliott: No, Halifax.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dartmouth public building - improvements
and repairs, $2,000.
Felix Patrick Quinn: What is this, a post office?


John Campbell Elliott: This is the new public
building.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Halifax public building-improvements and repairs, $20,000.
Felix Patrick Quinn: What building is this?


John Campbell Elliott: General repairs and improvements to the public building in Halifax, as requested in a memorandum by the chief architect, dated November 23,	1929, as
follows:
Mr. Russell, the district resident architect for Nova Scotia reports that there will be a considerable amount of pointing of masonry and brickwork, also general repairs to carpentry and plastering, and an amount of new copper roofing, as well as a new tile floor in the public lobby, and interior and exterior painting required at the above during the coming fiscal year.
The cost to carry out the above works is
estimated at $20,000.
This is too large a sum to take out of the general vote for the maritime provinces, and I recommend a special sum of $20,000 be provided in the estimates to carry out the above works.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Is that the post office building?


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sherbrooke public building $27,000.
William Gordon Ernst: What is the population of
Sherbrooke and what is the revenue from the post office there? I would be surprised if either is very large.


James Dew Chaplin: What constituency is that in?


William Gordon Ernst: Antigonish-Guysborough.


John Campbell Elliott: The postal revenue for the years 1928 and 1929 was $1,897; the customs revenue was $848. The population is about 700.


William Gordon Ernst: The significant fact is that the practice in connection with new buildings is of a similar nature to the remark passed by the Prime Minister-not a five cent piece to the Tories.


John Campbell Elliott: You would not think that about New Glasgow.


William Gordon Ernst: It has been overdue for a great number of years.


George Halsey Perley: The population of Sherbrooke is about 700; what will be the total cost of this building?


John Campbell Elliott: There are three extensive routes running out from there.


James Dew Chaplin: Extensive?


John Campbell Elliott: The total cost of the building will be $21,500; fittings and furniture, $3,000; grading and sidewalks, $1,000; contingencies and superintendence, $1,500.


James Dew Chaplin: The vote last year was $15,000.


John Campbell Elliott: There is a revote to the extent of $13,000.


George Halsey Perley: We have had this subject before us on many occasions. I must say that the present minister does not seem to pay much attention to the revenue or population of places where public buildings are constructed. A village of 700 people is to have an expenditure so great that the postal revenue of the place would barely pay the interest on the initial cost. So many places in this country are much larger, of greater importance and producing a greater revenue; yet they cannot get funds from this government for a public building. It seems to be an extraordinary situation in view of the fact that this is in a constituency which I am told the Liberals think that no candidate holding the political views of this side of the house can ever expect to be victorious there.


John Campbell Elliott: That applies to a great many constituencies these days.


James Dew Chaplin: It does not apply to Halifax.


George Halsey Perley: To my mind there is no constituency like that in the Dominion. The minister evidently feels that way or he
1494	COMMONS
Supply-Public Works-Buildings
would not suggest spending $25,000 or $30,000 in a town which can boast of a population only of 700. He would not urge this expenditure if he did not think there was a chance of the Liberal candidate being beaten.


William Gordon Ernst: He was beaten in the last Dominion election.


Felix Patrick Quinn: I must correct the hon. member for Argenteuil (Sir George Perley); we do not regard Guysborough as hopeless.


George Halsey Perley: The minister evidently thinks that we have a first class chance or he would not put such a large building in such a small place.


John Campbell Elliott: There seems to be great disagreement between my hon. friends as to the possibility in this riding, but there is absolute unanimity on this side of the house.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Windsor public building-improvements and repairs, $2,000.
William Gordon Ernst: I do not rise to make an
objection, but I was going to ask the minister to allow an item to standi so that hon. members who are not present could have an opportunity for discussion when they return. I do not think this matter is contentious, but I would aak that it be allowed to stand so that there may be opportunity for discussion. Vote No. 120 would be satisfactory for that purpose.


John Campbell Elliott: Very well.


Robert Knowlton Smith: For the fifth
consecutive year I wish to bring to the attention of the minister the horribly inadequate postal facilities in the town of Oxford, Nova Scotia. I am sure when I mention the facts I have before me the minister will recall that I have on many other occasions vigorously pleaded for some consideration for improved postal facilities for this town. The town of Oxford1 has a population of about 1,500 people. They conduct the postal service in a shack 24 feet by 16 feet, and I would like to read a description which points out the disgraceful conditions of the post office in this town.
The post office itself was made out of some private rooms and forms part of an old dwelling house. The remaining portion of the building is a private dwelling. The outside measurement of the post office is 24 feet by 16 feet. Part of this is taken up by what passes for a waiting room averaging 6 feet in width.
I may say that a plan was sent by me in the year 1926, to the predecessor of the present minister.
You will note by the plan that the working space is less than 150 square feet. Part of this

is taken up by desks, stove, safe, stamp tables and desk, boxes and wicket ledges. With a large number of mail bags piled in this small space, you can imagine how everything is cluttered up and the handicap under which the clerks (three in number) have to work. The office is very poorly lighted. You will note that there is only one window in the office proper, with four lights of glass measuring 14 inches by 28 inches each. The only other window as shown on the plan is in the waiting room and is of the same size. The office itself is heated by a small stove. The register shown in the sketch is not in use. There is no water, toilet or other conveniences. There is no heat whatever in the waiting room. The waiting room is nothing but a narrow corridor, which can only accommodate a few people at a time. Most of the people have to wait outside the building during the sorting of the mails, which is a particular hardship in cold and stormy weather.
This town is of considerable importance. I have mentioned on previous occasions that three rural routes emanate from this particular point. It is the hub of the county, of Cumberland, it is of manufacturing as well as agricultural importance, and situated in the centre of a very rich agricultural district. Last year the total revenue in stamps from this office was $5,018.42; the revenue from money ordters issued was $88,480.99; money orders paid, $29,958.77; postal notes issued, $4,108.92; postal notes paid, $3,069.17. The post office service states that the number of registered letters handled and the number of outgoing insured parcels cannot be given. I wish to point out to the minister that some years ago there was an estimate made by the departmental engineers as to the cost of a new build1-ing to supplement the present one. The sum mentioned was $35,000. This was done several years ago, and no effort has been made on the part of the department to arrange for a new building or better postal facilities in this town. May I again urge the minister to give this matter some serious consideration? I had some promises from him a few years ago as to improved postal facilties, but they are far from satisfactory to the people of this town. Petitions complaining about the inadequate facilities have been sent to the department by the town council, and the board of trade; also a number of influential citizens have protested. I think such an expenditure would be as fair as some of those that we have provided for this afternoon for post office buildings. It would at least be as just as the expenditure which was voted this afternoon for a post office building in a town less than half the size and importance of this one. In my opinion the minister should give serious consideration to the representations that have been frequently made not only by myself but by the people of the town in regard to the

Privilege-Mr. Manion
granting of decent and respectable post office facilities in Oxford. I suggest to the minister that it is not too late to include an item in the supplementary estimates to provide for this building.


John Campbell Elliott: The matter to which my hon. friend refers has been brought up before, and is worthy of consideration. With regard to the other building,' I did not interrupt my hon. friend to say that it had become practically impossible to carry on in the old building, according to the Post Office Department. The office was contained in a private house, and it had become impossible to carry on. I will give the question very serious consideration.


Alfred Speakman: It is not my intention to intervene on behalf of the hon. member for Cumberland, although his plea seems to be reasonable and worth while, but in considering what he has said in regard to the situation in his own town, and in considering the vote to which he referred, it does seem to me that there should be some ratio established as between the population and revenue of a point on the one hand and the amount expended for public buildings on the other. I think there should be some definite and understandable ratio.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
New Brunswick
Atholville-public building, $14,000.
Forest City-building for immigration and customs excise purposes, $4,000.
St. John quarantine station - Partridge island-improvements, alterations, repairs, etc., $9,500.
St. John-tractor for postal purposes. $1,300.
St. John quarantine station - Partridge island-new pipe line and repairs to existing line. $35,000.
West St. John-purchase of property for Lancaster hospital, $5,000.
Murray MacLaren: The total amount for New Brunswick is so small that I cannot offer any objection to any of the items contained in the list, but I would say that the total of $68,800 is extraordinarily small as compared with the other provinces.


John Campbell Elliott: I do not want to rush through these items, but as we are approaching the vacation we may not be able to reach them again. Under the next item my hon. friend will have an opportunity to make any remarks he may desire, and perhaps we might carry this small total of $68,800.


Murray MacLaren: If the minister would give a few words of explanation with regard to the Lancaster hospital property I think we might pass the vote.


John Campbell Elliott: This amount of $5,000 is required for the purchase of the property owned by Mrs. J. W. V. Lawlor, situated on Prince and Duke streets, adjoining the Lancaster hospital premises. The purchase of this property was requested by the deputy minister of health in a communication dated October 7, 1929, in which he urged it very strongly.


Murray MacLaren: For what purpose?


John Campbell Elliott: To extend the grounds
around the hospital in order to prevent anyone else purchasing the ground and building right up to the hospital.


George Halsey Perley: This item might carry on the understanding that any items referring to Nova Scotia or New Brunswick public buildings can be discussed under the next vote.


John Campbell Elliott: I think that can be done.


[Stage Direction]
Items agreed to.
Progress reported.
Mr. DUNNING moved the adjournment of the house.
Hewitt Bostock: I might state to the house that when we resume on April 28, the house will be on daylight saving time.
Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at six o'clock p.m., until Monday, April 28, at three o'clock p.m.
Monday, April 28, 1930.