[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. A. GLEN (Marquette) presented the ninth report of the select standing committee on miscellaneous bills.
Mr. GLEN moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. G. W. McPHEE (Yorkton) presented the eighth and ninth reports of the select standing committee on banking and commerce.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. M. J. MALONEY (South Renfrew) for (Mr. Morin) presented the third report of the select standing committee on standing orders.
Mr. MALONEY moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 301, for the relief of Isadore Sabbath.-Mr. Glenn.
Bill No. 302, for the relief of Gladys May Carter.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 303, for the relief of Dorothy Stanfield.-Mr. Sanderson.
Bill No. 304, for the relief of George Washington Latta.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 305, for the relief of William Henry Wardell.-Mr. Church.

New Zealand Treaty
Bill No. 306, to incorporate Industrial Loan and Finance Corporation.-Mr. Casgrain.
Bill No. 307, to incorporate The British Columbia Alberta Western Railway Company.-Mr. Goulet.
Bill No. 308, to incorporate The Hudson Bay Western Railway Company.-Mr. Goulet.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. CAMERON R. McINTOSH (North Battleford) moved:
That the recommendations contained in the second report of the select standing committee on industrial and international relations, presented to the house on May 19, 1930, be concurred in.
Mr. STEVENS:: Could we have an explanation so that we may know what we are dealing with?


Mr. McINTOSH:: The report is concerned with the motion, the proposed resolution, of the hon. member for Southeast Grey (Miss Macphail) as to the desirability of spending one dollar in the promotion of international peace for every one hundred dollars spent in the promotion of war. The committee subjected that resolution to a full analysis, took evidence from Doctor Skelton, Under-Secretary of State for External Affairs; Professor Mackenzie, of Toronto university; Dean Corbett, of McGill university; Mr. Graham Spry, secretary of the Associated Canadian Clubs; and a submission by Doctor Tory, and came to the conclusions set out in the report, first, that the evidence not being as full and complete as might be wished the resolution should be considered at another session of parliament. Secondly, with regard to the contents of the resolution, the feeling of the committee was that the Department of External Affairs, manned at the present time by the Prime Minister of Canada and Doctor Skelton, was doing splendid work in the promotion of peace at home and abroad, and that the machinery and facilities of that department in the way of international peace should be extended and increased. By so doing it was further felt that parliament might see its way clear to increase its grant to the League of Nations Society in Canada. The grant now I believe is S3,000 per annum. The committee felt that that grant should be increased if the League of Nations Society was to do its best work throughout the Dominion in the promotion of international peace in the schools of this country, primary and secondary, and also in the universities of the Dominion.
2419-154J
Another idea mooted before the committee was that it might- be well for parliament to consider the advisability of the establishment of an international library linked up with the Department of External Affaire. If that were done the committee thought that in due time it might be possible to organize a summer school on international relations for Canada with Ottawa as the headquarters.
I believe, Mr. Speaker, those are the main points dealt with in the report, and I now leave it for the house to endorse..


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. L. S. RENE MORIN (St. Hyacinthe-Rouviille) moved:: That the select standing committee on standing orders be permitted to sit while the house is in session.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition) :: Mr. Speaker, might I inquire of
the Prime Minister when the correspondence in connection with the proposed New Zealand treaty will be brought down? My hon. friend the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) was . to speak to the right hon. gentleman about it, but I fancy that in the multiplicity of his duties this might -have been overlooked.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: The correspondence is in
. the nature of negotiations between two governments and is confidential. Up to the present time the negotiations are incomplete, and beyond the statement as to what is set forth in our correspondence, I do not think there is anything we would be justified in bringing down. As a matter of fact I happen to recall that a communication from the New Zealand government mentions the desirability of not making the correspondence fully public at the present time.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The right hon. gentleman will recall that in the Senate the leader of the government sa.w fit to -put upon Hansard letters that had passed between the American representatives and our representatives in connection with the treaty regarding smuggling, even though one of the letters was dated only two days before. This house is still without that correspondence. I thought we should at
Civil Service

least have before us in connection with the New Zealand treaty the notice that was referred to in the speech of the hon. Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) as to the rescission of the order in council being made operative as of October 12.


Mr. DUNNING:: Notice was given to that effect.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I quite appreciate the
right hon. gentleman's statement as to the confidential nature of correspondence of that delicate character. But on the other hand the notice referred to by the Minister of Finance should be laid on the table.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The fact of
the notice having been given is public now. That notice is contained in the correspondence, a part of which I am afraid is confidential. I doubt if it is possible at this time to supplement the actual statement that such notice has been given.



CIVIL SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. J. LADNER (Vancouver South):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask the Prime Minister a question with respect to order in council P.C. 1053, which extends the scope of inquiry of the Beatty commission. Under the order in council will opportunity be given to the civil service organizations, particularly the professional institute of civil servants, to make representations before the Beatty commission in order to correct anomalies as to' classification and salaries and the alleged omissions in the present Beatty report? That is will the functions of the existing committee still continue? If the Prime Minister will look at the order in council he will find the following:
The committee, therefore, on the recommendation of the Secretary of State, advise that a supplementary commission be issued to the said commissioners extending the scope of the inquiry to include such investigation, and also the advisability of fixing a minimum salary for employees in the civil service.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think it is most desirable that the commission should hear representations from any of the organizations with respect to any anomalies or any other features which they think should be inquired into by the commission.



POSTAL TERMINAL &quot;A&quot; TORONTO

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Toronto Northwest):: May I bring to the notice of the Postmaster General (Mr. Veniot) the fact that postal terminal "A", which is the largest postal station in Toronto closes its doors at 7 o'clock every day, except Saturday, when the closing time is at noon. Surely this is not right. I wish to bring to the attention of the Postmaster General also the question of keeping all post offices, especially the larger ones, open till midnight during the Shriners' convention. Postal terminal "A" should be kept open till 10 o'clock. It is beside the mail trains and people coming down with mail find the place closed and cannot get stamps.
The post office is a public utility and the public interest should be paramount. Toronto returns a great profit. Why not give an up-to-date service? The postal revenues of Toronto are about 86,000,000, which shows the need of a large central post office near the depot with proper accommodation for the public using this most important utility.


Hon. P. J. VENIOT (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member was kind enough to send me the notice of this question, and during the noon hour I made certain inquiries at the department. Before I read the statement which they prepared for me, may I say that when any large conventions are being organized it would be only right that the department should facilitate as much as possible the work of those conventions in the matter of communication by mail, and on such occasions special arrangements will be made to meet their convenience. Let me read the memorandum prepared by the department:
The department has for some time been giving consideration to the arrangements for postal facilities during the Shriners' convention in June. Special offices are being opened in the government building at the exhibition grounds and in proximity to the two points where accommodation is being provided by the railway companies.
Adequate facilities for conducting postal business will also be in operation in the Royal York hotel, where the headquarters of the convention will be located. This office, which is immediately across Front street from terminal "A," will be open at all hours of the day.
The situation is being closely watched and is being given special study by a competent postal official of the Toronto office. In the event of there being any indication that the arrangements already made will prove inadequate, the department is prepared to take whatever additional steps are necessary to ensure a first-class service.

Russian Anthracite Coal
As regards the hour of closing of postal terminal "A," it may he stated that experience has shown that there is no demand for service at that point after 7 o'clock in the evening. The Adelaide street office, which is more conveniently situated, is open until 10 o'clock every night.
It should be pointed out, however, that while the lobby of terminal ''A" is closed at 7 o'clock, the public can obtain access for the purpose of posting mail matter and purchasing stamps by entering the office on the lower level immediately under the main entrance to the lobby.
As regards the hours of closing of the other postal stations in Toronto, these have been fixed as the result of experience obtained by the officials at Toronto and it is not considered that there is sufficient public demand for later closing to justify the department in going to the extra expense which would be involved if employees had to be retained on duty to serve the wickets.
I may add that the whole situation is now being reviewed again, and if thought necessary the hours will be changed.
FILIPINO IMMIGRATION On the orders of the day:


Mr. W. G. McQUARRIE (New Westminster) :: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the acting Minister of Immigration (Mr. Stewart) if he has had any advices as to the influx of Filipinos into British Columbia. According to my information, these Filipinos first invaded the states of California and Oregon. They gave a good deal of trouble in the Sacramento valley. Then quite a number of them moved up to the state of Washington, and as a result there have been some race riots. I believe two hundred or so were driven off the farms between Seattle and Tacoma. Now they are drifting into the province of British Columbia and are entering the labour market. If we do not wish to have another race problem in British Columbia something should be done right away to meet the situation.


Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of the Interior):: The matter has not been
brought to my attention, but I shall make inquiries.



FONTAINE AND LACASSE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Winnipeg North Centre):: I would like to call the attention of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) to the case of two boys, Fontaine and Lacasse, who were arrested for a milk robbery on November 2, 1929, sentenced in December, the former to four years and the latter to two years. On April 1, two other boys confessed to the crime, and as a result they were convicted, sentenced
and are now serving terms. I am informed that a week ago all the evidence was in the hands of the Department of Justice. It seems to me that the case of these two boys represents a gross miscarriage of justice, and I ask the minister when these boys will be released; and is there any possibility of reparation being made?


Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: I am glad my hon. friend has mentioned this question. The officials in my office informed me this morning that this matter had two days ago been brought to the attention of the Department of Justice by the crown prosecutor of the county of Carleton.
I immediately communicated with the Solicitor General who has under his control the Ticket of Leave Act, and he has signed a recommendation to the governor in council. I understand it has been passed, in order that they may be released immediately. Meanwhile counsel acting for these two boys is asking the Department of Justice to order a new trial, and I am considering whether this is the best course to take under the circumstances, or whether a pardon should be issued in order to avoid the necessity of a new trial.
RUSSIAN ANTHRACITE COAL On the orders of the day:


Mr. T. CANTLEY (Pictou):: A few days ago the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland) directed a question to the hon. the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) in regard to the movement of Soviet coal from Montreal to central and western Ontario. Is the minister prepared to give an answer to that question?


Charles A. Stewart: There has been some coal carried from Montreal as far west as Cobalt. It has not been coming in under the subvention granted to the movement of Nova Scotia coal, but I am informed that only a small amount has reached Cobalt. It is not expected that the importation of Soviet or Russian coal will exceed 250,000 tons. Perhaps the total will be about 150,000 tons.


Thomas Cantley: That is a considerable
quantity.


Charles A. Stewart: May I say
to my hon. friend that as far as we can ascertain at the moment the importation of this coal has not displaced any of the British coal. There is more British coal coming in than came in formerly; it has however displaced to some extent American anthracite.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Orders of the day.
2438	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Thomas Cantley: May I ask the Minister if the government intends to take effective action in connection with the importation of Russian coal? It is a serious matter; large quantities of this coal are being offered to-day in Montreal at about $6 per ton, and it is idle to say that it does not come into competition with Canadian coal. There can be no doubt that it does.


Charles A. Stewart: I think my hon. friend must be under some misapprehension as to the price. I am informed that the price of the Russian coal is almost identical with the price of American and British coal.


Thomas Cantley: May I say further-


Rodolphe Lemieux: Orders of the day.


Thomas Cantley: I wish to say-


Rodolphe Lemieux: I am very sorry; I am calling orders of the day. The hon. gentleman is out of order.


Thomas Cantley: I submit this is a matter of very considerable importance, and I would like to say to the hon. gentleman


Rodolphe Lemieux: We cannot interrupt the business of the house; hon. members are not allowed to put a series of questions.


Thomas Cantley: I will have to ask the decision of the house as to whether I may discuss this question.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Orders of the day.



WAYS AND MEANS


[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Mr. FANSHER (Lamibton):: It will be noticed by hon. membefs that this item 4091:
Traction ditching machines (not being ploughs) for use in ditching for tile drains on farms, valued by retail at place of production, when new, at not more than $3,500 each, and complete parts thereof:	British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.


William Russell Fansher: It will be noticed by hon. members tat this item is free; in fact, it has been free for a number of years. There is however a limitation imposed regarding the valuation of the machine, which is set at $3,500. As hon. members know this particular machine is used for digging trenches for farm drainage purposes in which tile drains are laid. Prior to the war these machines were imported free. They are not rMr. Speaker.]
manufactured in Canada; they were not at that time manufactured here and have not been since. The limitation imposed at that time admitted the two smaller sized machines. During the war the price of all commodities rose, as did the price of these machines. The result was that the larger of the two machines admitted was excluded because of this price limitation. The result is that in late years only the smallest machine has been admitted, and those who desired the second largest machine had to purchase a used machine or one which had been rebuilt in the United States and could be imported as a second-hand article. I am asking that the limitation imposed here may be raised from $3,500 to $5,000, which would admit the second size of machine, the same machine that was admitted when this item was first placed on the free list. I remember having this matter before the late Minister of Finance last year; I took it up with his chief tariff advisers, and it was also before the Minister of National Revenue and the commissioner of customs. There has been some difficulty in getting into the country duty free the repairs for the larger size machine; I had this matter up last year with the department in that regard. I believe the only way to remedy this discrepancy and to admit again the machine that at one time was admitted free, would be to raise the limitation from $3,500 to $5,000, and I should like to impress this upon the Minister of Finance.


Mr. McMILLAN:: Mr. Chairman. I think the matter which has been referred to by the hon. member is quite necessary, and something like that ought to be done to get these machines into the country free of duty, as they were admitted for some time up to a certain valuation.


Mr. CHAPLIN:: This is purely a matter of revenue; as I understand it, the goods are not made in this country. Moreover, I understand that a case has arisen where one of the machines which came in free required some repairs, and owing to the advance in price the repairs for that machine could not be brought in duty free, although the machine came in free. Now they have to pay duty on the repairs, because to-day the machine is worth more than it was before. This is a case, Mr. Chairman, where we prohibit an article from being made in this country by putting it on the free list, and when the price goes up there is no redress whatever. Put the duty on, and possibly in time you would have them just as cheap here. Here is a case where free trade did not work out exactly as you wanted it bo.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Charles Avery Dunning: Perhaps my han. friend from East Lambton would give his view on that point.


William Russell Fansher: I think it was a Conservative administration which let these machines in free of duty. I well remember that the late Mr. McCoig had a good deal to do with placing these two smaller machines on the free list, where they remained for a good many years. They are used largely, I believe, in flat lands, the heavy clay lands of Ontario, for tile drainage purposes. I would suggest to the minister that we surely might expect him to be as low tariff as the Conservative party was at that time.


Charles Avery Dunning: Apparently there would be no difficulty in administration and only a small amount of revenue would be involved, as far as I can learn. The articles came in before under the item of machinery, n.o.p., to an untraceable extent. I am prepared bo accede to the request of my hon. friend from East Lambton and to raise the limit to $5,000.


Mr. EULER:: I move that the figures
$3,500 be struck out and the figures $5,000 substituted therefor.


William Russell Fansher: I think that will be a great help to those interested in tile drainage, and I believe I am correct when I say that since the duty has been imposed on this second size of machine it has prohibited the importation altogether.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Item as amended agreed to.
Customs tariff-409m. Internal combustion traction engines for farm purposes, valued at not more than fourteen hundred dollars each; traction attachments designed and imported to be combined with automobiles in Canada for use as traction engines for farm purposes; and complete parts of all the foregoing: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Mr. WHITE (London):: I should like to
make a few observations on this item and to direct the attention of the house to the situation now existing, although I do not suppose it will make any particular difference. There are features about this matter that should be spoken of, I think. This item has been enlarged, if I understand it correctly, by the addition of the words "traction attachments designed and imported to be combined with automobiles."


Charles Avery Dunning: No, that was always in
the item.
Mr. WHITE (London); Then I am in error in that particular, but I should like to say something about farm tractors. These machines were put on the free list in 1917, during the war. As the hon. gentleman to my left said with regard to the previous item, this was done by the Conservative government, and in my city two firms were starting to manufacture these machines when that duty was removed, and immediately the manufacturing ceased. To-day there are no machines of this kind made in Canada; they are all made in the United States.
It might be of interest to know just what this has amounted to in the past. I have not been able to segregate these items for 1917 or 1918, but in the last twelve years we have imported practically all these machines from the United States to the extent of over $100,000,000 including machines and parts. That is what has happened since these machines were put on the free list, and that is the usual result when that is done. In that connection I should like to refer to a statement made by Mr. Kerwin, of the Massey Harris Company, before the tariff board. It seems that Mr. Deachman of the Consumers' League had been referring to agricultural implements, and had made the request that they practically all be put on the free list under the British preference and that the duty be reduced to 6 per cent under the other two schedules. Mr. Kerwin replied as follows:
Mr. Deachman has suggested a very radical change, which is quite unexpected as far as the Massey-Harris Company is concerned, a reduction of the 10 per cent items to 6.	\\ e just
got over suffering from a reduction m May last which was quite a substantial blow, and we did not come prepared to go into this question of reduction of duties. But I would like to draw your attention to one or two facts. In 1924 a substantial reduction of duties was made. What has been the result since? Mr. Deachman says that we are doing very well, but it must not be overlooked that business was good, and a good deal of our prosperity has been out of the country, not within the country. Let me refer to the imports after 1924, eliminating 1925, which was a very flat year. In 1926 they were $13,336,650; in 1927, $18,946,288; m 1928, $29,636,449; in 1929, the last fiscal year, $40.292,8S9. Now-, these are all wholesale prices: if you deal with the figures in terms of retail prices they would run between fifty and sixty millions of dollars. We are losing that much business by the reduction in duties, there is no question about that; if you reduce them further, more goods will come in. We protest against the suggested reduction from 10 to 6 per cent.
Then follows a remark by Mr. Deachman: Is not the importation largely tractors for farm purposes?
2440	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Mr. Kerwin:	To a certain extent, but nearly
half of it is implements of other kinds.
Mr. Deaehman:	Are you manufacturing
farm tractors?
Mr. Kerwin. No, sir, we were prevented from doing that because they were made free in 1917. If you reduce the duties as suggested in this case, the same result will follow.
The same thing has taken place in other lines. The item covering farm wagons occurs a little later in the tariff, but I may as well refer to it now. The government reports show that in 1928 we manufactured to the extent of $243,000; we imported to the value of $660,000 and exported to the value of $38,000. From these figures it would appear that the apparent needs of Canada were $864,000, which figured out means that we made only 25 per cent of our requirements and imported 75 per cent. The same thing is occurring in the case of binders. It has been said that because tractors are coming in in large numbers they are responsible for this change, but the figures show that in 1929 imports of tractors increased only 27 per cent over 1928, while the imports of harvesters and binders increased 45 per cent. I can remember that there were only a few years ago seven wagon factories in western Ontario, but since that time four have gone out of business and the remaining three are running on reduced schedules. It seems to me that this is a question to which the government should have addressed itself when preparing the schedule. Surely the business enterprise of Canada can handle this matter; surely Canadian brains are equal to those south of the line. If the government were to take hold of this situation we would hear less about unemployment and there would be no need for the issuance of proclamations as to what will or what will not be done so far as unemployment is concerned.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-10!)]]. Portable engines with boilers, in combination, for farm purposes; horse powers and traction engines for farm purposes, n.o.p.; and complete parts of all the foregoing:	British preferential tariff, free;
intermediate tariff, 10 per cent; general tariff, 15 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-409o. Equipment for generating electric power for farm purposes only, viz.:	engine, gas tank, generator, storage
battery, and switchboard: and complete parts of all the foregoing: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 10 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.

Customs tariff-410.	Carloading machines
and complete parts thereof for use exclusively for loading coal into box cars: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Mr. EVANS:: I have no objection to putting elevators for loading coal on the free list, but I would like to see elevators for loading grain in the same position. It is just as hard to shovel grain as it is to shovel coal. In the newer parts of the country there are hundreds of sidings with no elevator equipment, and I think the government should consider putting grain elevators on this free list.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410a. Face loading machines, shaker trough or belt trough conveyors, air engines, flame-proof enclosed driving motors, of a class or kind not made in Canada, and integral parts of all motive power or machinery mentioned in this item, for use exclusively at the face in mining operations: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 10 per cent; general tariff, 12J per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410b. Machinery and apparatus for use exclusively in washing or dry cleaning coal at coal mines or coke plants; machinery and apparatus for use exclusively in producing coke and gas; machinery and apparatus for use exclusively in the distillation or recovery of products from coal tar or gas; and complete parts of all the foregoing, not to include motive power, tanks for gas, nor pipes and valves, 10J inches or less in diameter: British preferential tariff, 7J per cent; intermediate tariff, 10 per cent; general tariff, 12J per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410c. Machinery and apparatus and complete parts thereof for use exclusively in producing unrefined oil from shales, not to include motive power, of a class or kind not made in Canada: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410d. Well-drilling machinery and apparatus, and complete parts thereof, of a class or kind not made in Canada, seamless iron or steel tubing over four inches in diameter for use exclusively in drilling for water, natural gas and oil, and in prospecting for minerals, not to include motive power: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410e. Well-drilling machinery and apparatus and complete parts thereof, anil rope twenty-one hundred feet and over in length, capable of drilling wells of two thousand feet and over in depth, of four inches and over in diameter, and of raising and lowering

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
casing over four inches in diameter for such wells, for use exclusively in drilling for water, natural gas and oil, and in prospecting for minerals, not to include motive power: British preferential tariff, 5 per cent; intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 5 per cent.
Mr. SPENCER:: What was the necessity of including this item in the schedule; there is no change.


Charles Avery Dunning: Just to include complete parts thereof.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410f. Machinery and appliances of iron or steel, of a class or kind not made in Canada, and elevators, and machinery of floating dredges, for use exclusively in alluvial gold mining: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410g. Articles for use exclusively in the metallurgy or smelting of iron, viz: machinery and apparatus for sintering or nodulizing iron ore, concentrated or not, or flue dust; machinery and apparatus for use exclusively in the construction, equipment and repairs of blast furnaces for smelting iron ore, such machinery and apparatus to include hot blast stoves and burners, blast piping and valves connecting the blowing engines with the furnace, scale cars, charging and hoisting apparatus, blast furnace gas piping, cleaners and washers, and integral parts of all the foregoing, but not to include wrought iron pipe or valves 101 inches and under in diameter, nor structural iron work:	British preferential tariff, free;
intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 5 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff

410h. Equipment and integral parts thereof for distributing stone dust in mines: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410i. Miners' rescue appliances, designed for emergency use in mines, where artificial breathing is necessary in the presence of poisonous gases, including high pressure oxygen pumps for use exclusively in connection with such appliances, and automatic resuscitation apparatus for artificial breathing to aid in the saving of human life, and integral parts of all the foregoing: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410j. Miners' acetylene lamps and complete parts thereof; miners' safety lamps and complete parts thereof; accessories for cleaning, filling, charging, opening and testing miners' lamps; battery renewal preparations for miners' electric safety lamps; all for use exclusively in mines: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410k. Machinery and apparatus, of a class or kind not made in Canada, for use exclusively in handling ore and other materials to be charged into the blast furnace, from the dock, car or stock pile, at the smelting works: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-4011. Ore crushers, rock crushers, stamp mills, grinding mills, rock drills, percussion coal cutters, coal augers, rotary coal drills, n.o.p., and complete parts of all the foregoing for use exclusively in mining, metallurgical or quarrying operations: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410m.	Diamond drills and
core drills, not including motive power, and electrically operated rotary coal drills, of a class or kind not made in Canada, and integral parts of the foregoing, for use exclusively in mining operations: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410n. Diamond drills and core drills, not including motive power, and electrically operated rotary coal drills, n.o.p., and integral parts of the foregoing, for use exclusively in mining operations: British preferential tariff, free: intermediate tariff, 10 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410o. Coal cutting machines, n.o.p., coal heading machines; electric or magnetic machines for concentrating or separating iron ores; automatic scales for use with conveyors; and integral parts of all the foregoing, for use exclusively in mining or metallurgical operations: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410p. Sundry articles of metal as follows, for use exclusively in mining and metallurgical operations, viz.: furnaces for the smelting of ores; converting apparatus for metallurgical processes in metals; machinery for the extraction of precious metals by the chlorination or cyanide processes, not to include pumps, vacuum pumps or compressors; blast furnace blowing engines for the production of pig iron; and integral parts of all the foregoing:	British preferential tariff, free;
intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410q. Pumps and vacuum pumps and complete parts thereof, for use exclusively in the extraction of precious metals by the chlorination or cyanide processes: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 17J per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
2«2	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Customs tariff-410r. Power driven reciprocating pumps and complete parts thereof, designed for normal working heads of 400 feet and over, for use exclusively underground in mines: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 274 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410s. Amalgam safes; automatic ore samplers; automatic feeders; retorts; mercury pumps; pyrometers; bullion furnaces; amalgam cleaners; and integral parts of all the foregoing, for use exclusively in mining or metallurgical operations: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410t. Blowers, of iron or steel, of a class or kind not made in Canada, for use in the smelting of ores, or in reduction, separation or refining of metals, ores or minerals; rotary kilns, revolving roasters and furnaces of metal, of a class or kind not made in Canada, designed for roasting ore, mineral, rock or clay; furnace slag trucks and slag pots, of a class or kind not made in Canada; and integral parts of all the foregoing: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410u. Blowers, of iron or steel, n.o.p., for use in the smelting of ores, or in reduction, separation or refining of metals, ores or minerals; rotary kilns, revolving roasters and furnaces of metals, n.o.p., for use in the roasting of ore, mineral, rock or clay; furnace slag trucks and slag pots, n.o.p.; and integral parts of all the foregoing:	British
preferential tariff, 15 per cent: intermediate tariff, 174 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410v. Buddies, vanners, slime or concentrating tables and integral parts thereof, for use in mining and metallurgical operations:	British preferential tariff, free;
intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410w. Machinery, n.o.p., for the concentration or separation of ores, metals or minerals, viz.: flotation machines, flotation cells, oil feeders and reagent feeders for flotation machines and flotation cells, pumps, vibrating and impact screens, jigs, magnetic separators, magnetic pulleys and filters, for use in the concentration or separation of ores, metals or minerals, and integral parts of all the foregoing: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 17J per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410x.	Machinery, furnaces
and appliances, of a class or kind not made in Canada, and integral parts thereof, for use in IMr. Dunning.]
the refining of metals, and for the production of anodes, cathodes, blocks, slabs, pigs or ingots, in such refining processes: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410y. Heavy duty mine hoists, of a size and capacity not made in Canada: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-410z. Machinery and apparatus, n.o.p., and complete parts thereof, for the recovery of solid or liquid particles from flue or other waste gases at metallurgical or industrial plants, not to include motive power, tanks for gas, nor pipes and valves 124 inches or less in diameter: British preferential tariff, 7J per cent; intermediate tariff, 10 per cent; general tariff, 124 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-411. Machinery for use in sawing lumber, up to but not including the operation of planing, and complete parts thereof, not to include motive power, when for use exclusively in saw mills (for the purpose of this item motive power is defined as equipment for driving the machinery of the saw mill): British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-411a.	Machinery, logging
cars, cranes, blocks and tackle, wire rope, but not including wire rope to be used for guy ropes or in braking logs going down grade, and complete parts of all the foregoing, for use exclusively in the operation of logging, such operation to include the removal of the log from stump to skidway, log dump, or common or other carrier: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-411b. Cylinder stave saws, wheel type stave jointers, crozing and cham-phering machinery, when for use exclusively in making staves: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-412. Machinery, being newspaper printing presses, of not less value by retail than $1,500 each, of a class or kind not made in Canada: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-412a. Machinery and apparatus, n.o.p., viz: printing presses and typemaking accessories therefor; electrotyping and stereotyping machines; gun and mould apparatus for making press rollers; lithographic

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
presses; offset presses; book-binding machines; embossing machines; engraving machines; photoengraving apparatus; machines and apparatus for transferring by photographic processes to plates or rolls for use in lithography, rotogravure and printing; machines for graining metal plates: machines for sensitizing metal plates; machines for addressing and wrapping newspapers, magazines, periodicals, pamphlets, and catalogues; machines for bronzing, creasing, scoring, cutting, perforating, punching, gathering, gumming, pasting, joggins, numbering, patching, slitting, re-winding, ruling, sheetpiling. stitching, stripping or varnishing; all the above, including repair parts but not including saws, knives and motive power, when for use exclusively by printers, bookbinders, paper manufacturers, paper converters and by manufacturers of articles made from paper or cardboard; British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Mr. DUNNING; This item covers a long list of printing machinery, and I would like to delete the words "paper manufacturers" which appear towards the end of the item. The reason for suggesting this amendment is to make the item apply to the printing trade only.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. BRADY:: May I be permitted to bring to the attention of the Minister of Finance a telegram which I received this morning. I do not know whether or not I am in order, but as the minister has mentioned paper manufacturers I think I may be permitted to direct his attention to a very important omission from the countervailing items. The telegram reads as follows:
Please use your utmost efforts have kraft and wrapping papers placed on countervailing list in budget. This automatically raises duty five per cent on paper imported from United States. Paper now being shipped to British Columbia from United States at ruinous prices and we strongly urge application countervailing principle as protection from unscrupulous competition badly needed.
Pacific Mills Limited D. G. Stenstrom, resident manager.
This kraft and wrapping paper is really a completed article in that very large plant which employs about 2,500 men and the request here made is in accord with one desire to encourage the complete fabrication in Canada of our raw materials. The purpose of this message is to prevent the extensive importation of the very commodity which the Pacific mills is able to produce. This branch of the pulp industry has greatly aided employment and extends the scope of the policy of developing industries in Canada, a policy which I believe the Minister of Finance is just as anxious as we are to see extended in
Canada, namely, that the greatest part of our raw materials should lbe brought to the finished state in this country. I trust tire minister will take the time to examine into this very important request from the manager of the Pacific Mills Limited, Ocean Falls.


Charles Avery Dunning: Curiously enough I have received some representations on both sides of that question. On going into the matter I find that the whole question of paper should really be made the subject of an inquiry before the tariff board. The items more or less run into each other and different interests have very varied views. I have accordingly come to the conclusion that to propose anything at the present time would be jumping very much in the dark. A hearing on everything to do with paper is, I believe, a necessity because of the importance of the industry and also its diversity which is much greater than I had dreamed of before I looked into it, as I did owing to the representations I had received similar to those advanced by my hon. friend.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-412b. Flat-fed cylinder printing presses, to print sheets of a size 25 x 38 inches or larger, and complete parts thereof; machines designed to fold or sheet-feed paper or cardboard, and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-412c. Typecasting and typesetting machines and parts thereof for use in printing offices: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-413. Machinery and apparatus, of a class or kind not made in Canada, and parts thereof, specially constructed for preparing, manufacturing, testing or finishing yarns, cordage, and fabrics made from textile fibres or from paper, imported for use exclusively by manufacturers and scholastic or charitable institutions in such processes only: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Mr. RYCKMAN:: Is this just a reclassification?


Charles Avery Dunning: There is no change except in the wording. The words "for use exclusively by manufacturers" are added, and the words "or from paper" are added in order to include all groups of materials of the same kind.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
2444	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Customs tariff-413a. Machinery, of a class or kind not manufactured in Canada, for use in the manufacture of nets or netting for the fisheries, when imported by manufacturers for use exclusively in the making of such nets or netting, in their own factories, but not for use in making nets or netting commonly used for sportsmen's purposes: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
James Dew Chaplin: What change is there in this item? The duty remains the same.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is the same except for the words "exclusively in the making of such nets or netting."


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-414. Typewriters and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 20 per cent; general tariff, 2S per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-414a. Dictating, transcribing and cylinder-shaving machines and complete parts thereof, including cylinders and unfinished wax blanks: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 20 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-414b. Automatic teletypewriters and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 20 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-414c. Adding, book-keeping, calculating and invoicing machines and complete parts thereof, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent: intermediate tariff, 20 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Mr. CAMPBELL:: Did we receive anything under this item or did we export anything last year?


Charles Avery Dunning: Under item 414b, teletypewriters are coming from Great Britain. Under 414c, adding and calculating machines are nearly all coming from the United States.
Schedule
415a. Refrigerators, domestic or store, of all kinds, completely equipped or not.
Proposed rate	
Present rate, item 519	
415b. Washing machines, domestic, with or without motive power incorporated therein; complete parts of washing machines.
Proposed rate	
Present rate, item 453	
It will be noted that there is a reduction in all these items in the different columns. In my opinion the reduction under the British


Milton Neil Campbell: Did we not ship some of these machines to Great Britain last year?


Charles Avery Dunning: We shipped a small quantity to Great Britain.


James Dew Chaplin: Why did the minister reduce the duty from the United States?


Charles Avery Dunning: There is no reduction. '


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-415. Electric vacuum cleaners and attachments therefor; hand vacuum cleaners; and complete parts of all the foregoing, including suction hose, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 121 per cent; intermediate tariff, 20 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
James Dew Chaplin: Why was the duty reduced from the United States?


Charles Avery Dunning: People use these machines a good deal and this is a little consideration to help the consumer.


James Dew Chaplin: Was it to help the British preference?


Charles Avery Dunning: It is a little consideration to the consumer.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-415a. Refrigerators, domestic or store, of all kinds, completely equipped or not: British preferential tariff, 121 per cent; intermediate tariff, 20 per cent: general tariff, 25 per cent.
Mr. RYERSON:: I would like to discuss items 415a and 415b together as they both deal with manufactured articles which are now being made in Brantford factories employing Brantford workingmen, and both show decreases in the tariff, not only in the British preferential but also in the intermediate and the general tariffs. I will read the items, giving the rates of duty under the proposed measure and also under the existing schedule:
British	Inter-	
Preferential	mediate	GeneralTariff	Tariff	Tariffm%	20%	25%20%	27*%	30%Free	15%	25%15%	25%	27 J%
preferential tariff will have little effect upon these industries at the present time, because, as I shall presently show, there are practically

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
no imports from Great Britain, but the reductions under the general tariff will undoubtedly assist United States manufacturers and result in increased imports from the United States to the detriment of our own factories.
In order that the committee may understand the importance of this trade, I submit the imports for the fiscal year, 1930, which figures I have just received from the Department of Customs:
Statement showing the imports by countries of washing machines and refrigerators: entered for consumption in Canada during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1930.
Item	Country	No.	Value
Washing machines

domestic.	.Great Britain United States	7 22,995	$ 8,628 1,565,479
		23,002	$1,574,107
Refrigerators.Great Britain United States	2 18,892	36 1,913,555Totals. . .	18,894	$1,913,591
I fail to understand the policy of the finance minister, or his object in dealing, as he proposes to do, with these items and others of a similar kind, which relate to manufactured articles now being made in Canada. He has repeatedly stated in the budget speech and in the discussions that have taken place on the floor of this house, that the intent of many of these tariff changes was for the purpose of encouraging empire trade and to give the British manufacturer an opportunity to replace, in so far as possible, the heavy imports now coming from the United States. If that is so, why does he propose to reduce the tariff in the general list as well as in the British preferential? What benefit will accrue to the British manufacturer that he does not now enjoy? In what better position will he be to replace United States manufactured washing machines and refrigerators? In these changes which relate to manufactured goods, the whole policy of the finance minister seems to be to encourage and help either the British or the foreign manufacturer.
I fail to note one change that will assist or help one Brantford industry. Why has the minister failed to give some consideration or direct some thought to a policy to encourage and help our own manufacturing industries? If he is sincere in his desire to lessen the imports from the United States, this would be the logical way to accomplish that purpose.
Might I say that I have no objection to the British preference when it does not interfere with and replace the products of our own
factories, and take away the jobs of Canadian workingmen. In my opinion our first duty should be to assist and build up Canadian industries, so that Canadians may have the opportunity of employment at home and not be forced to seek a living on foreign soil.
There are other industries in Brantford which are greatly concerned over the reduction in duties under the British preference. I have in mind one of our most important manufacturing industries, employing in the neighbourhood of 150 hands, the manager of which has written me and has enclosed copies of letters written to the tariff board and to the finance minister in which he has outlined the difficulties of his industry. However, I will take that matter up when we come to the item.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: I would point out to the minister that a duty of 2i or 5 per cent may mean just the difference between getting the business and not getting it. I happen to be well acquainted with the city of Brantford.
I lived there for three years and know the industries that have been referred to by my hon. friend (Mr. Ryerson). I offer this suggestion for the special consideration of the minister, to let the general tariff stand as it was and do what he likes with the British preference. Surely these people should not be handicapped 2 V or 5 per cent in obtaining business when they have enjoyed that privilege before. Cannot the minister have a heart to the extent of 2 i and 5 per cent and restore this item to what it previously was?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-415b. Washing machines, domestic, with or without motive power incorporated therein; complete parts of washing machines: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Mr. GEARY:: May I ask the minister if
I am right in saying that we do not import into Canada washing machines from Great Britain?


Charles Avery Dunning: A few this year, but none last.


George Reginald Geary: We export to Great Britain a certain number of washing machines, and we imported from the United States $1,650,000. The Commercial Intelligence Journal for the month of April has this to say from the trade commissioner in Liverpool:
One representative of a well-known washing machine company estimates that between 500 and 600 electric machines are sold in the United Kingdom each month. Of that number he believed over a third could be credited to Ameri-
2446	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
can manufacturers, about a third to Canadian, and less than a third to English companies. The bulk of the American sales appear to be divided between three well-known firms, with one company claiming a major share. The English business goes largely to four companies, and Canada competes with three manufacturers.
There is no object in putting these articles on the free list under the British preference because we import none. But why lower the duty against the American product in view of our large importations?


Mr. ROSS (Moose Jaw):: If our manufacturers of washing machines can compete in a free market in England, is there any reason why they should not be able to compete here?


George Reginald Geary: We imported $1,650,000 of
washing machines into this country. Our manufacturers cannot compete in a free market. There are different types of washing machines and some that are produced in this country may appeal to English people. But why reduce the duty against the United States in view of our large importation?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am not afraid that there will be any adverse effect upon the industry in Canada. The production last year amounted to about $9,000,000. As my hon. friend says, we imported $1,650,000 from the United States. All the evidence that I have goes to show that the reduced duty ought to be quite adequate.


George Reginald Geary: There are no importations
under the treaty rate?


Charles Avery Dunning: No.


George Reginald Geary: That has been reduced too,
I see.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-415c.	Clothes wringers,
domestic, and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Charles Avery Dunning: I have an amendment,
Mr. Chairman, to add after the word "parts" the words "of metal."


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. KAISER:: Why should there be a duty of 10 per cent on clothes wringers and washing machines be made free?


Charles Avery Dunning: Perhaps my hon. friend's colleague sitting beside him could answer that. Item agreed to.

Customs tariff-415d. Sewing machines, with or without motive power incorporated therein; complete parts of sewing machines:	British
preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-415e. Sewing machines attachments: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff 416. Machinery and apparatus and complete parts thereof, including machinery and apparatus for carbonizing lignite coal, but not including motive power, when imported by manufacturers of fuel briquettes for use exclusively in the manufacture of fuel briquettes, m their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-417. Machinery of every kind and complete parts thereof, and structural iron and steel, when imported for use exclusively in the construction and equipment of factories for the manufacture of sugar from beet root, under regulations prescribed by the minister: Preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-418. Machinery and complete parts thereof, when imported by manufacturers for use exclusively in the manufacture of fish meal, stock and poultry food and fertilizers from fish and waste thereof, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Mr. SHORT:: Will the minister give us some information with reference to this item?
I notice that this article was free under the old tariff, and is now made free under the British preference, with 15 and 20 per cent respectively under the intermediate and general^ tariffs. How many of these machines did we import from Great Britain last year?


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend is under a misapprehension in the first part of his remarks. These machines were not free in reality. They were free if not made in Canada, and during the last two years on acount of these machines being made in Canada they have become dutiable under old item 453. Formerly they came in under the old item 467a, when these machines were not made in Canada. Immediately they were made in this country they came in under the old item 453. which imposed rates of 15, 25 and 27i per cent respectively. We are proposing a reduction from those rates respectively to free,
15 and 20 per cent.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Harry Bernard Short: I understand that these machines are not made in Great Britain.


Charles Avery Dunning: Oh yes.


Harry Bernard Short: Are there any imports from Great Britain?


Charles Avery Dunning: Very small. Our imports last year were $121,000, almost entirely from the United States.


Harry Bernard Short: Were there no imports from Germany? I understand that several German machines have been imported into this country; not last year perhaps, but the year before.


Charles Avery Dunning: Our information is that Germany is now coming into the market with this class of machinery. This machinery, as my hon. friend will see, is for the use of manufacturers of fish meal, stock and poultry food, and so forth.


Harry Bernard Short: The importations last year were all from the United States?


Charles Avery Dunning: Practically. There was a small importation from other countries, but my notes do not give the figures.


Mr. KENNEDY:: Had the tariff board anything to say with regard to this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, there was a hearing on it.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I wonder if the minister could tell me just why machinery under item 417 for use in the manufacture of sugar from beet root should come in free, while there is a tariff on machinery used in the manufacture of fish meal, stock and poultry food and fertilizers? Surely, when you consider how hard it is for the farming industry td get protection under present conditions, there is no more reason why it should be asked to bear a burden of this kind than the beet sugar industry. It does not seem logical.


Charles Avery Dunning: In the one case the article of machinery is made in Canada, and in the other it is not.


Harry Bernard Short: Is there a Canadian manufacturer of fish meal?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Harry Bernard Short: Where is the factory located?


Charles Avery Dunning: At Victoria, British Columbia.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-419. Machinery and complete parts thereof, of a class or kind not made in Canada, when imported by manufacturers _ of metal keys for the opening of cans containing food products for use exclusively in the manufacture of such keys, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-420. Machinery and complete parts thereof, of a class or kind not made in Canada, when imported by manufacturers of leather for use exclusively in the tanning of leather or the embossing of leather, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 74 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-421. Machinery and complete parts thereof, of a class or kind not made in Canada, viz:	blungers, vibrating sifters or
lawns, pugging machines, slip pumps, wet or dry pans, clay disintegrators, ball mills, clay wheels, pull-downs, batting-out machines, when imported by manufacturers of clay products for use exclusively in the manufacture of clay products, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 74 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-422. Street or road rollers and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 20 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-422a. Concrete road-paving machines, self-propelling, end loading type, with a capacity of 21 cubic feet of wet concrete or more; concrete and asphalt road finishing machines; form graders; sub-graders; cement guns; cranes, shovels, drag-lines, pull-shovels, skimmers and other excavating and material handling machines and equipment of a full-revolving type; trench and ditch excavating machines, round wheel or vertical or ladder boom, chain and bucket type, for digging vertical or sloping bank ditches; back filling machines and equipment, mounted on self-propelling wheels or crawling traction, semi, or full-revolving boom and scraper type; steam or air driven pile hammers or extractors; well-points; truck turntables; all the foregoing of a class or kind not made in Canada, and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, free: intermediate tariff, 10 per cent; general tariff, 12J per cent.
John Franklin White: With regard to concrete mixers, I have had representations from a concern in my constituency manufacturing machines of this type. I presume the minister has had from them an objection to this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: We have had no objection to this item that I know of.
2448	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


James Dew Chaplin: These are reported to be of a class not made in Canada.


John Franklin White: There was a deputation here a few days ago from some machinery manufacturers, and I understand they wanted to make certain changes in regard to the description.


Charles Avery Dunning: Not of this item.


John Franklin White: The manufacturer to whom I referred wants to have the same change made in regard to this item, and he gives his reason in a communication to me. The change he would like to make would read:
-of a class or kind not procurable of Canadian manufacture.
Is there any objection to putting that in?


Charles Avery Dunning: It is simply not possible, I am advised, to administer such a wording. That is the advice I get from my own officers and also from the customs.


John Franklin White: Perhaps the minister would bear with me for a few minutes. In this communication the manufacturer states:
Under the wording of new paragraph 427-


Charles Avery Dunning: Probably we could have
the discussion better on item 427.


John Franklin White: And let this
stand?


Charles Avery Dunning: If you want to deal with it on this item all right. Your remarks will apply to both?


John Franklin White: Yes, I will not
make a second speech. He says:
We are most interested in Canadian manufacturing industry. Prior to the time the present government came into power most Canadian manufacturers were doing well.


Charles Avery Dunning: That was a good start,
anyway.


John Franklin White: Yes.
From that time on very few have made money. Take, for instance, the concrete machinery industry. Two companies have failed within the last three years and not one of them have made any advancement within the last few years.
In the case of our own company, who have plenty of capital, and everything requisite for a successful business, with over $350,000 invested, we have had nothing but our salaries in the last five years. Why? Because there is not sufficient business in Canada to keep our plant working to its full capacity after the business has been raided by unfair competition.
All that the Canadian manufacturer wants is a fair opportunity to secure the business- we can produce the goods of a quality equal to any-and at a fair price to the consumer.

Then he cites certain machines he makes which are sold at lower prices in Canada than similar machines are sold at in the United States. This is what he says in regard to the re-wording:
With a low tariff on machines not now made in Canada, purchasers will take advantage of the low tariff and the Canadian manufacturer will not even have an opportunity to quote and practically all special machinery, sixty per cent of which could be made in Canada, will be purchased in foreign countries. With provision whereby the Canadian manufacturer has an opportunity to quote they stand a fair chance of getting the business.
I will give an illustration of this. Six weeks ago one of the provincial utilities of Canada required a concrete mixer, especially constructed with a loading hopper designed to be loaded with materials located fifteen feet lower than the concrete mixer. This meant a machine equipped with special elevating equipment. A machine of this type is not made as standard in Canada or elsewhere.
Tenders were called-a Canadian company secured the order in the face of the keenest American competition and made delivery in eight days after the order was taken.
-and so on. He states that the proposed change would make it incumbent upon those who are purchasing such machineiy to make sure it was not manufactured and could not be procured in Canada before going elsewhere. Can the minister help us in that direction?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am advised that the
wording would not be possible to administer.


Mr. BELL (St. Antoine):: Mr. Chairman,
on that very point, I desire to refer to item 44oj. I have had several letters inquiring what is meant by the words, "of a class or kind not made in Canada." I think this phrase needs explanation.


Charles Avery Dunning: It has been in the tariS for years.


James Dew Chaplin: That is why it ought to be changed; it is out of date.


An hon. MEMBER:: Why do you want it changed?


Leslie Gordon Bell: We will tell you in a minute. Is it left to the discretion of the customs officers to place their interpretation on this phrase? If so, I think it is open to very serious objection. What is the minister's interpretation of "a class or kind not made in Canada"? Like the hon. member for London (Mr. White) I received a letter proposing the following amendment:
-of a class or kind not made or not procurable in Canada.


William Daum Euler: Mr. Chairman, it is difficult enough now in the department to administer

Ways and Mcans-Customs Tariff
the act under the phrase "made in Canada," and under the tariff changes it has become more difficult. But I think it will appeal to the reason of my hon. friend and the other members of the committee that if you substitute the phrase "procurable in Canada" you certainly put a duty upon the officers of the department that they cannot possibly carry out in a practical way.


Leslie Gordon Bell: How does the minister interpret these words? I do not understand them.


William Daum Euler: We take the words "made in Canada" to mean exactly what they say.


Leslie Gordon Bell: Does it mean that the whole article must be made in Canada?


William Daum Euler: The article enumerated must be made in Canada. It may be made of parts that are imported, because a good many plants in Canada are more or less assembling plants.


William Russell Fansher: Lajt year and this, in connection with certain machines that are run by chain belts, it was brought to my attention that while the machine and complete parts thereof could be brought in free up to a certain price, these parts could not be brought in free, because a similar chain belt was made in Canada, but it was not of the same size as that used in the machine. This caused considerable difficulty. It should be cleared up.


William Daum Euler: It is merely a matter of administration, and I am sure that my hon. friend would not expect me to give an absolute definition in regard to it. Varying cases come up from time to time and each of them has to be decided on its merits. That is all the information that I can give.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-423. Electric dental engines: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-424. Fire engines and other fire extinguishing machines; hand fire extinguishers; sprinkler heads for automatic sprinkler systems for fire protection; complete parts of all the foregoing, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-425. Lawn mowers and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: How many lawn mowers came from England?


Charles Avery Dunning: We imported SI 18,000, almost entirely from the United States.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Are there any imports at all from England?


Charles Avery Dunning: If there are they are so small as not to be in my notes.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Why is the
American tariff reduced; what is the reason in this particular case? Was this before the tariff board?


Charles Avery Dunning: It was part of the iron and steel inquiry; is a 30 per cent duty not sufficient?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I am just asking what the motive was; was it the subject of any investigation at all?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, as part of all similar machinery.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Was machinery in general the subject of investigation before the tariff board?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, for weeks.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I understood the minister to say that steel and iron were, but-


Charles Avery Dunning: And everything made
from steel and iron, too. These items were investigated.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: All machinery
items?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Mr. LUCAS:: I understood the minister to say there were practically no imports of lawn mowers last year from the United Kingdom.


Charles Avery Dunning: No, not last year.


William Thomas Lucas: Why is a duty of 15 per cent left on under the British preferential tariff?


Charles Avery Dunning: They are made very
largely in Canada.


William Thomas Lucas: I would think if there were none coming in from the United Kingdom, a reduction might encourage trade.


Charles Avery Dunning: I find myself in the usual unfortunate position. When there is a reduction in the duty my hon. friends in that corner of the house keep quiet, and I get the attack from my hon. friends opposite. When there is an increase in duty my hon. friends directly opposite keep silent and the attack comes from the corner of the house.


An hon. MEMBER:: The hon. gentleman seems to be getting it from all directions.



Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Charles Avery Dunning: The opposition is never from the same section of the house in relation to any particular item.


William Thomas Lucas: I was not making an attack.


John Gordon Ross: You should be pleased that there is a reduction of 5 per cent.


Milton Neil Campbell: These free items do not mean anything.


Charles Avery Dunning: If my hon. friends would ask questions on the items which are reduced with the same industry they display in connection with other items, they would find out how much difference there is. I do not wish to take up the time of the committee reciting detail when it is not requested, but at a later time I will be able to demonstrate the value of the changes.


Milton Neil Campbell: I have the figures before me for almost every item in the schedule.


Mr. QUINN:: Did the minister say that there were no importations of this item from the United States?


Charles Avery Dunning: Importations to the value of $118,000.


Felix Patrick Quinn: And any from the United Kingdom ?


Charles Avery Dunning: A very small quantity.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Does that not prove the fact of adequate protection; why reduce the duty?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-426. Ozone generators or airifiers and complete (parts thereof, of a class or kind not made in Canada: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-427. All machinery composed wholly or in part of iron or steel, of a class or kind not made in Canada, n.o.p., and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, free: intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
John Evans: Is it a fact that goods coming in under the British preferential tariff must be 50 per cent of British origin in raw material or work?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


John Evans: What are the conditions
governing the clause "not made in Canada?" Does it refer to assembling plants, or must 50 per cent of the material be of Canadian origin?
TMr. Dunning.]


Charles Avery Dunning: For what purpose? This is not a tariff on goods made in Canada; it is a tariff on goods coming into Canada.


John Evans: I would like to know how it is interpreted.


Charles Avery Dunning: It can only be interpreted as applying to goods coming into the country; it has nothing to do with goods made here, as far as the levying of the rate of duty is concerned.


John Evans: hen do you consider that
goods are made in Canada? Must they be wholly made here, or simply assembled?


Charles Avery Dunning: That is a matter of
customs administration. I am sorry the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Euler) is not present. That enters into customs administration with respect to the applications for drawback of duty on parts or materials used in the manufacture of any article.


Mr. EDWARDS (Waterloo):: I wish to
refer to machinery not made in Canada, which was spoken of a moment ago. I would suggest that the item should be worded " not procurable in Canada," but that otherwise the tariff item should remain the same. I cannot understand how there could be any difficulty in administration under this item. I wish to draw particular attention to special iron tools which are not made in Canada at the present time. All the larger machine shops are equipped with draftsmen and pattern makers, and in some of the largest industries fully 25 per cent of their business is in the manufacture of special machinery. In this country there are about 700 branches of American industries, and about 70 branches of English industries. The men in charge of the American branches know that they can procure these special iron tools in the United States from the parent factory, and with that in mind they can bring them into this country at a duty of 20 per cent. All that the machine shops in this country are asking for is an opportunity to tender, and nothing more. They do not want a tilt in the duty, nor do they want greater protection. It seems to me that when the department is dealing with this item it should make a ruling to the effect that these shops which are equipped to make machinery should have the opportunity of tendering.


John Gordon Ross: You would have a tariff on them?


Alexander McKay Edwards: Yes. In
the manufacture of special tools it may be

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
that only one tool is made, and then the equipment is destroyed. Such machinery could be described in the tariff item as machinery " not procurable in Canadd."


James Dew Chaplin: I wish to confirm the
remarks of the hon. gentleman who has just spoken. He comes from a constituency which boasts probably the largest machinery making industries in Canada. I can illustrate his point from instances which occur in my own shop. We make special articles, and the tools that we use have to be specially manufactured. They are not procurable in the open market, and we have to have them made. In many cases we ourselves own the patterns. Under the present law the Canadian people never have a chance to make these tools because they are duty free from the United States.


Charles Avery Dunning: No.


James Dew Chaplin: They come in at a very
low rate of duty.


Charles Avery Dunning: Twenty per cent.


James Dew Chaplin: Some of them are free.


Charles Avery Dunning: There is a 20 per cent tariff under this item.


James Dew Chaplin: I am speaking of the
whole range of tools.


Mr. EDWLARDS (Waterloo):: I think the minister can readily understand that there are tools which require special engineering, drafting and patterns. In the machine shop to which the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Chaplin) referred 25 per cent of the business is of a special nature. That machine shop is as well equipped as any machine shop in America. It may be however that these machines are standard in the United States, and for that reason they are willing to pay the 20 per cent duty.


Charles Avery Dunning: In such case, if goods
are made in Canada-


James Dew Chaplin: No, they are not made
here; they are not standard equipment in Canada.


Charles Avery Dunning: They are not standard,
but they are made here; my hon. friend has told me that.


John Gordon Ross: They can be
made here.
Mr. EDWlARDS (Waterloo):	They do
not get an opportunity to tender on this work; all they want is an opportunity. They are not asking for greater protection. We 2419-155i
have been speaking of a big shop with a turnover of about $2,000,000, and nearly 25 per cent of the business of that concern is in connection with pattern work. In this country we have engineers, pattern makers and draftsmen equal to any of their kind in the world.
I do not think that the department should have any difficulty in the administration of the provision referred to by the hon. member. Surely that can be done.


Charles Avery Dunning: The minister in charge of administering the act has given consideration to it, and he also agrees that the words "not procurable" would not be practical to administer.


Alexander McKay Edwards: I do not know why that should be so. Surely it is more important to get work for these industries than to bother with a little administrative ruling.


John Gordon Ross: You have 20
per cent now.


Alexander McKay Edwards: Yes. We do not want any more tariff at all; it is not a question of tariff.


Charles Avery Dunning: Like all things that require interpretation, all these large n.o.p. items, that is, all which remain after everything has been described as accurately as possible, this is the subject of detailed administration and customs board rulings, under section 54. I cannot conceive the customs board ruling-of course, the customs board is like a court and I cannot say in parliament how they would rule on this, that or the next case-an article as not being made in Canada when, as a matter of fact, they know that an institution such as that to which my hon. friend refers is filling such orders right along, or similar orders. I cannot conceive of such a ruling being made. On the other hand, the words "not procurable in Canada," the department says simply, would not be possible to administer.


Alexander McKay Edwards: I am trying to argue the point as strongly, strongly as possible, but it means a lot of business to these industries.


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not think it does.


Alexander McKay Edwards: Oh, but it
does. You know it does; you had a representation here the other day from half a dozen big machine shops.


Charles Avery Dunning: I never had such a representation.
2452	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Alexander McKay Edwards: I beg your
pardon if I am wrong, but I have a copy of a letter addressed to the minister and signed by half a dozen different industries. I can give it to the minister if he wishes to see it.


Charles Avery Dunning: I did not see the people.


Alexander McKay Edwards: I did not
intend to imply that you saw these people, but this letter is signed by the John Bertram and Sons Company, Limited; the Brown-Boggs Foundry and Machine Company, Limited; Canada Machinery Corporation, Limited ; Canadian Ingersoll Rand Company, Limited; Canadian Mead-Morrison Company, Limited; William Hamilton, Limited and John T. Hepburn, Limited. It seems to me it would be an easy matter for the department to inform these importers that they must notify the different shops before bringing in the goods in order to find out whether or not they can produce them. It is not a question of asking any favours at all; this is just requesting an opportunity to tender for the business.


James Dew Chaplin: In the case of goods coming in, I should like to ask the minister who determines as to whether or not this particular class or kind of goods is made in the country?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am not familiar with
the detail workings of the customs board.


James Dew Chaplin: Somebody must determine that.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes. The machinery
must have been working for years, because of the presence of that feature in many items of the customs tariff.


Thomas Cantley: I wonder if the minister
can give a little information along this line. Supposing John Bertram and Sons wrote the department and said they were prepared to make a lathe of some particular kind, and a little later machinery of that type was entered through customs duty free under this item, what would this department do in that regard.


Charles Avery Dunning: I cannot answer that,
any more than any minister can answer as to what the customs department ruling would be in a particular case, but I can tell my hon. friend what is common sense from my own point of view. As I explained to my hon. friend from Waterloo a moment ago, in my view the fact that the goods are being made or that similar goods are being made in Canada is sufficient.


Alexander McKay Edwards: That is just where we differ; they are not being made.


Mr. VALLANCE:: But they can be made.


Alexander McKay Edwards: Yes.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend is demonstrating that they are being made, the subject of special orders, right along.


Alexander McKay Edwards: But not the same machines. Perhaps I did not make myself quite clear. There may be an inquiry for a machine of a certain type from an American branch concern. They know they can procure that machine in the United States, but that machine may never have been made in Canada although these plants are equipped to make it, and 25 per cent of their business is special work. All they want is the opportunity of tendering on these jobs. They say that they can make them. We are not asking any more protection by any means; we just want to transfer that work to Canadian workmen. I might add to that list of concerns the Water-ous Engine Company of Brantford; they are in the same position, and there are a number of big plants similarly situated.


Mr. MILLAR:: What change would be
necessary to make that effective?


Alexander McKay Edwards: Just the
substitution of the words, "not procurable in Canada" for the words, "not made in Canada." In other' words, these different machine shops want to receive the specifications and have a chance to tender on these special jobs. If the price is not good enough, all right; bring in the machine from the United States, but give them an opportunity of tendering, that is all.


Thomas Cantley: I will try to make this a little more clear to the minister. We have half a dozen engineering shops in Canada which are branches of American engineering firms. Supposing I want a multiple punch; the American concerns make it but the Canadian concerns do not make it. That is a machine that will punch fifteen or twenty holes at one operation, or a multiple drill, for example. The American concern makes it but the Canadian concern does not. The reason the Canadian concern does not make it is simply because they do not want to put in the plant to make a small quantity, and they prefer that such orders should be dealt with by the parent house. The result is that all such work goes to the United States. I can point out, in my own experience, numerous cases where that has taken place and where we have had to go to

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
the United States when the machine could be made and should be made in Canada. That is the point my hon. friend is trying to bring to the attention of the minister.


Charles Avery Dunning: It has been carefully
studied and I do not agree with my hon. friend as to the result, from my advice.


James Dew Chaplin: I will say to the minister that I do not believe the matter ever came up in the department before. It may have been carefully studied, but to my knowledge that same description has been there for twenty-five years. This is an important matter. I know from my own experience of over forty years that we buy machinery from the United States which is procurable here if we want to go after it. We can probably get it more quickly from the United States, but I believe in having the law so that a man will not be encouraged to bring in machinery from the United States.


Alexander McKay Edwards: Mr. Chairman, I would like to read to the minister this little memorandum and perhaps it will put the matter more clearly than I have been able to do. It is as follows:
There is purchased annually in Canada machinery totalling many hundreds of thousands of dollars which is built to specifications. In some instances such machines may not have been built in Canada although Canadian plants are fully equipped to do so and are quite prepared to quote thereon.
In place of Item 427 we believe it would result in valuable expansion of Canadian manufacture and afford useful and reasonable opportunity to Canadian industry if the following wording which we recommend wyere substituted:
Proposed Item 427:
"All machinery composed wholly or in part of iron or steel of a class or kind not procurable of Canadian manufacture, n.o.p., and complete parts thereof: free; 15 per cent; 20 per cent."
It is only a matter of administration, and I trust the minister will give perhaps a little more serious consideration to it.


Charles Avery Dunning: I have.


Alexander McKay Edwards: You have
not the right slant on it, because it is not asking any favour at all; it is not asking any change. This to a number of big plants is a serious matter. This request was presented to Mr. McKinnon of the tariff board, but from what the minister says I assume it never reached him.


Charles Avery Dunning: I understood my hon.
friend to say that I had received a delegation.


Alexander McKay Edwards: I did say
that, but it was a mistake on my part; I meant a letter.


Charles Avery Dunning: I received that letter
and had it investigated.


John Franklin White: The minister says that this could not be administered; what are the reasons for that statement?


Charles Avery Dunning: The department says
that it is entirely too vague.


Alexander McKay Edwards: Suppose you were given a definite number of industries manufacturing this class of equipment, and * it be made contingent for these goods being brought into Canada that those industries should be notified; could not that be done?


Charles Avery Dunning: I see no reason why that could not be done under the existing item.


Alexander McKay Edwards: They are not made in Canada?


Charles Avery Dunning: Oh, yes.


Alexander McKay Edwards: They are
special tools and perhaps only one is built. I know one plant which employs fifty pattern makers and fifteen or twenty draftsmen, as well as many engineers; surely those men could be employed on this work aside from making the tool itself.


Charles Avery Dunning: That is right.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-427a. All machinery composed wholly or in part of iron or steel, n.o.p., and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-428.	Traction engines and
complete parts thereof, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 10 per cent; general tariff, 15 per cent.
John Gordon Ross: What type of
traction engine does this item cover?


Charles Avery Dunning: The engines covered by
other items are traction engines for farm purposes, valued at not more than $1,400, which are allowed in free; machinery for lumbering, which includes traction engines, at 10, 15 and 20 per cent. The item now under consideration covers all other traction engines for farm purposes.


John Gordon Ross: This item would cover farm tractors?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, not only for farming purposes but for any purpose.
2454	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


John Gordon Ross: There is a cut of 124 per cent in the general tariff?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


William Russell Fansher: 
John Gordon Ross: If the hon.
member for Last Mountain is advocating a free tariff for tractors for road building purposes, I would say that all tractors for farm purposes should be made free of duty. No tractors of this type are made in Canada to-day, and the farmers of Canada are using tractors more and more. On the farms in western Canada they are beginning to use the larger types of tractors in order to handle heavier machinery, and as no industry in Canada would be injured, I would suggest to the minister that in his next budget, which

he will bring down next year, he consider allowing in free the larger type of tractors when they are used both for road building and farming purposes.


Mr. CARMICHAEL:: We are not absolutely sure that the Minister of Finance will bring down a budget next year.


John Vallance: If the other fellows do it, then you will not get it.


Archibald M. Carmichael: Sometimes things
happen even although we do not wish them to, and there is nothing like doing good work at the present time. I notice that this item is free under the British preference, and I would like to know the importations from Great Britain.


Charles Avery Dunning: Previously this item was dutiable at 15 per cent under the British preference.


Archibald M. Carmichael: Were there any importations from Great Britain?


Charles Avery Dunning: No.


Archibald M. Carmichael: I would like to endorse what the hon. member for Last Mountain has said in regard to giving special consideration to tractors used for road building purposes. Under the old tariff a rate of 27i per cent was imposed, and a tractor costing around $3,000 had to pay SS25 in duty. Some of these tractors cost more than $3,000 because the municipalities require tractors of 60 horsepower or greater. A payment of $825 for duty on one tractor means that the municipal council must tax the ratepayers to that extent, and it seems to me that these tractors are just as much entitled to free entry as are the small $1,400 tractors for farming purposes. It is true that a reduction of 12^ per cent is being made, but on a $3,000 tractor the payment of 15 per cent duty under the general rate would amount to $450 and the duty under the intermediate tariff at 10 per cent would amount to $300. These amounts must be paid by taxation levied upon the farmers, mostly in the prairie provinces, and I can say that they find it hard enough to get their taxes together for necessary purposes. It seems to me this is one instance where the federal government could give the benefit of complete elimination of this tax to the farmer who is struggling along and trying to make things go. As the hon. member for Last Mountain stated, this could be made to apply only to municipal corporations which buy such machinery for road building purposes. I wish to advise the minister that practically

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
every municipality is at present in or is rapidly getting into the position where it must have its own machinery to build its own roads. I would like to urge that special consideration be given to that point.


Charles Avery Dunning: There is an aspect of this matter to which my hon. friends have not,
I am sure, given consideration. They are interested, as I am and as all Canada is, in selling, amongst other things, wheat. We cannot sell unless we are prepared to buy. That is the situation at least so far as Great Britain is concerned. This is a class of goods in	the production of which	Great Britainundoubtedly excels, and we have a very encouraging indication of interest on the part of	British	manufacturers	in	this	kind oftractor, especially for road making purposes. There is no doubt that if we made this item free across the board no British trade would be developed, and I have strong hopes that such trade will	be developed	as	the	result ofleaving the item as we now have it. There is a substantial reduction in the duty so far as the purchaser of this article is concerned. A	number	of years ago	in	the	west two
British concerns manufacturing these heavy tractors made an effort to develop business. They learned of course that our system of doing business was different from theirs; they faced the necessity of establishing warehouses for parts and that sort of thing. It so happened that at that time western Canada was suffering from a series of poor crops; there was very little demand for their product, which was a very fine one of its kind, and in consequence nothing further developed. Judging from representations which 'have been made I am reasonably sure that with respect to this class of tractor we shall be able to import high quality machinery from the United Kingdom, and I am anxious that as far as possible that shall be done.


Thomas Cantley: The preference to Great Britain is exactly the same as it was before. Under those circumstances, how does the minister expect any considerable increase in trade from Great Britain?


Charles Avery Dunning: The old item was 15 per cent, 25 per cent and 27J per cent.


Thomas Cantley: The intermediate tariff before was 25 peV cent. It is now 10 per cent, so that the preference to Great Britain remains the same.


Charles Avery Dunning: But as my hon. friend knows, the general tariff is the one that is applicable. These goods come from the United States under the general tariff.


Thomas Cantley: Then the increase in the British preference is only 2\ per cent.


William Russell Fansher: Was it not the case that these large caterpillar tractors were used for logging purposes and that they were assessed at only 20 per cent?


Charles Avery Dunning: If they were used for
lumbering, the old duty was 20 per cent.


William Russell Fansher: And for road building in municipalities, the duty is 27J per cent.


Charles Avery Dunning: It was under the old
schedule. It is now 15 per cent.


William Russell Fansher: Can
the minister give us reasonable assurance that there is likely to develop a trade from Great Britain in this large tractor for road building and other similar purposes?


Charles Avery Dunning: I can only indicate that
the degree of interest displayed by British manufacturers of these goods, both at the inquiry and since, represents a very hopeful feature. I cannot, of course, positively promise that this or that will happen. It depends on the enterprise of the individuals concerned, and also, as I have impressed upon them, their willingness to give with the implement a type of service which corresponds with the requirements of our conditions.


James Dew Chaplin: What was the former
spread between the general tariff and the British preferential tariff?


Charles Avery Dunning: Twelve and a half per
cent.


James Dew Chaplin: What is the spread now?


Charles Avery Dunning: Fifteen per cent.


James Dew Chaplin: The minister expects to
get a big increase in trade on an increase of 2i per cent in the British preference?


Charles Avery Dunning: I expect to do two things: I expect to reduce the cost of the article to the consumer by at least the reduction in the general tariff, and to offer to the British manufacturers a free market. They are well aware of the spread which exists under this arrangement, and they are certainly getting ready to go after the business.


Archibald M. Carmichael: 
Thomas Cantley: The minister has one idea about this and I have another.


Charles Avery Dunning: I would expect that.


Thomas Cantley: Where is the buyer of
the British machine going to get his spare parts if his machine breaks down, and how long will he have to wait for them?


John Gordon Ross: In the province from which I come the dealer has to have his supply of spare parts on hand when he sells the machine. He cannot sell his machine in that province unless provision is made for supplying spare parts.


Thomas Cantley: He will not have spare
parts on hand.


John Gordon Ross: Then he will not sell the machine.


James Dew Chaplin: They have never done this before, and they will not do it now.


John Gordon Ross: My hon. friend
will find that a lot of trade will come in that way.
Item ageed to.
Customs tariff-428a. Automobile engines and complete parts thereof, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 27J per cent.


Mr. COOTE:: In 1926 there was a reduction in the tariff on automobiles. At the same time the excise tax was removed from automobiles made in Canada. I think hon. members will recall that the minister at that time assured the house that this would not make any difference in the price of automobiles; that the manufacturers had guaranteed that they would not take any advantage of the remission of the excise tax. Later on, in 1928, I drew to the attention of the minister the fact that apparently the manufacturers were taking advantage of that remission of excise tax, and when the matter was brought to his attention the minister promised to investigate it. He wrote to the manufacturers; the replies received- were placed on file, and apparently the matter was dropped. Last year it was again taken up with the minister, and on page 2302 of Hansard of last year I find recorded a letter which the 
late Mr. Robb wrote to the tariff board. I will read only the last paragraph of the letter, as follows:
It is important that this inquiry be conducted without delay and be as comprehensive as possible.
The inquiry which the board was to make was to ascertain whether the manufacturers of automobiles had been taking advantage of that remission of excise tax on Canadian-made cars costing less than SI .200. The matter was investigated by the board, and I want to quote just two or three sentences from the report.


Charles Avery Dunning: What report?


George Gibson Coote: The report of the hearing
before the board.


Charles Avery Dunning: The report of the evidence?


George Gibson Coote: Yes.


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not want to shut
my hon. friend off, but I would respectfully call his attention to the fact that the item under consideration is automobile engines and parts. He cannot complain of others wandering afield if he takes up again a matter which has been discussed once this session and which does not relate to the item under discussion. I shall not call him to order, although I am very doubtful about his being in order.


George Gibson Coote: I have not as yet raised any point of order, I have not taken up much time, nor did I make a speech on the budget, because I knew the government was anxious to bring the session to a close. I shall not take more than two or three minutes. I would ask the minister if he has received a report from the board with regard to that particular inquiry, and if so, what was the nature of the report. I wanted to quote just one sentence from the remarks of the chairman of the tariff board after he had questioned Mr. Russell, one of the witnesses, in regard to this question whether the manufacturers were taking advantage of the remission of the excise tax. The chairman says:
It is perfectly obvious that you could not have maintained that price if the 5 per cent had not been removed from the domestic car and retained on the imported car.
The matter is I think rather an important one. We were assured by the late Minister of Finance that he would make the manufacturers live up to their promise. The matter has been under consideration by the department for at least two years-


Charles Avery Dunning: No.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


George Gibson Coote: -and the budget was then brought down and no mention was made of it. I just want to take advantage of this item to ask the minister this question in regard to the matter.


Charles Avery Dunning: In fairness to my predecessor I think I should correct my hon. friend's statement that this matter has been under investigation for two years.


George Gibson Coote: I said by the department, because Mr. Robb undertook to investigate it two years ago.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, but he soon found the complicated nature of it and how impossible it was to get at it departmentally. My hon. friend has referred to a letter written I think less than one year ago by my predecessor or, Mr. Robb, to the chairman of the tariff board. I can only say, Mr. Chairman, that earlier in the session, in a discussion directly bearing on this subject, arising out of a resolution introduced I believe by my hon. friend himself, I indicated that I had made inquiries as to the progress of the investigation and reported to the house that the information I received was that the matter was of a very complicated character, that the investigation was proceeding, and that I could not hold out any hope of an early conclusion, especially having regard to the amount of work it was necessary for the Tariff Advisory Board to do in cooperation with myself in the preparation of the budget. The work is proceeding with the aid of outside investigators, all of whom indicate its complexity and the lack of possibility of coming to an immediate conclusion with regard to it. I can assure my hon. friend, however, that it will be pushed along.


George Gibson Coote: I think the minister is referring to the investigation of the whole matter of the tariff on automobiles. The particular matter to which I am referring is altogether apart from that.


Charles Avery Dunning: I am referring to that particular matter specifically.


George Gibson Coote: The only matter we discussed in the house on my resolution was whether the tariff on motor trucks should be reduced. There was no discussion of this particular inquiry to which I am now referring, although I mentioned in passing that naturally I expected the minister would take the excise tax off imported cars this year, because from a reading of the evidence taken before the board it seemed to me that it was clearly
proven that the manufacturers had been taking a price advantage of the tax. Therefore I thought we might expect some statement from the minister this year in regard to it.


Charles Avery Dunning: I cannot say anything further.


Mr. SIMPSON:: Has the minister figures before him to show the value of the imports of automobile parts that were subject to the 25 per cent drawback?


Charles Avery Dunning: I have the figures here relating to this particular item of engines. Our imports last year were $11,700,000. That is the only figure I have here, because no other item is under review.


Thomas Edward Simpson: And that was subject to the 25 per cent drawback?


Charles Avery Dunning: To the home consumption drawback.


George Gibson Coote: I would like to ask the minister whether his statement is to the effect that the tariff board say that they are not ready to report on this particular reference to them, in regard to whether or not the manufacturers are taking advantage of the reduction of the excise tax. That is the one question I have in mind. I am referring not to the tariff on automobiles, but to the question of the excise tax.


Charles Avery Dunning: My advice is that they are not ready to report on any phase of the matter, including the phase to which my hon. friend refers.


James Dew Chaplin: In the particular item we are discussing,-and it is a phrase that comes into this tariff in very many instances- there are the words, "and complete parts thereof." Will the minister say just what that means?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am rather embarrassed when asked these administrative questions, especially when they relate to phraseology which has been part of the tariff for many years, and which has acquired a definite administrative meaning. My hon. friend knows that the Minister of Finance does not administer the act. I am under some difficulty in answering him. I can only say that in this case as in all others the words mean exactly what the Customs department in administering the act in the past has interpreted them to mean in relation to similar cases.


James Dew Chaplin: I understand that, after all, the Minister of Finance is responsible for the wording of these items.
2458	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Charles Avery Dunning: What is wrong with this wording?


James Dew Chaplin: I am not saying that anything is wrong, but I want to know what these words mean, because two or three meanings can be taken from them.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend has had a very wide experience, and I am quite sure he knows much better than I do what the standard practice of the Department of National Revenue is in interpreting the expression "and complete parts thereof".


James Dew Chaplin: I had an experience last year and the year before with the executive in the customs department, and I am going to be a little more careful in the future, if I am here, to see that no such errors creep in again. I had experience with the way grapes were handled, and I am a little bit suspicious now.


Thomas Cantley: There is a redundancy here; there is no question about that. A part is a part. What is a complete part? Is it not still a part?


John Gordon Ross: Is it a finished
part?


Thomas Cantley: If it is a finished part, why not say so?


John Gordon Ross: I am not saying that it is; I am asking.


Charles Avery Dunning: I only know that the phrase has been used in years of customs practice. If the Minister of National Revenue were here he could probably answer, but I have not the necessary knowledge.


Thomas Cantley: The world does move a little.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend does not.


Thomas Cantley: You will find out at the *election whether I do or not.


Charles Avery Dunning: I beg my hon. friend's pardon.


James Dew Chaplin: The minister is stationary on this item.


George Gibson Coote: In regard to the excise tax on automobiles, would the ministry be good enough to assure the house that the board will give a report on that particular matter before the budget comes down next year?


James Dew Chaplin: He will not be here.


George Gibson Coote: I do not think that is asking too much. I have been stalled off in this matter for a long time. The former Minister 
of Finance stalled me off for a year, and then referred the matter to the tariff board. We still have no report from the board although the chairman, whose comment I have just quoted, said that it was perfectly obvious that the Canadian manufacturers could not maintain their price if the 5 per cent had not been removed from the domestic car and retained on the imported car. Will the minister therefore assure us that the board will hurry up and make a report before the next budget comes down?


Charles Avery Dunning: I must express my
thanks at the confidence my hon. friend displays that I shall be here to deliver the budget next year. I can assure him that I will do everything humanly possible to get the automobile matter in shape so that parliament can deal with it. More than that I cannot say. There is no object in deliberately holding up investigations of this kind; one desires them to come to a conclusion, particularly if he is in a position of administrative responsibility with regard to them. I have that desire, and I can assure my hon. friend that I shall do the best I can. I hope he will remember that I came into this department only a few months ago and a very short time before the session, and it has not been easy for me to master, even as imperfectly as I have succeeded in doing, the tasks of the department. I can only say I am doing the best I can in regard to it.


George Gibson Coote: Then I would ask the
minister in the very near future while he is still in charge of the department to request the board to endeavour to have a finding made in regard to this matter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-428b. Engines or boilers, of a class or kind not made in Canada, and complete parts thereof, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, free: intermediate tariff. 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-428c. Engines or boilers and complete parts thereof, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent: intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Some days ago I asked
the minister for certain figures in regard to the imports of these items under the general tariff, the intermediate and the British preferential for 1920. The minister said he was giving the figures for each item as he went along, and we could add them up and arrive at the totals. Has he made any arrangement to give us the totals?


Charles Avery Dunning: No.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: It is simply a matter
of getting somebody to operate an adding machine.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is not an easy matter
to promise the information immediately when the staff is very busily engaged in this work, but I will endeavour bo secure the information for my hon. friend before parliament prorogues. I will do the best I can, without making any guarantee.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-429.	Cutlery of iron or
steel, plated or not:
[Stage Direction]
(a)	Knife blades or blanks, and table forks,
of iron or steel, in the rough, not handled, ground or otherwise manufactured:	British
preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 7J per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
(b)	Table knives and table forks: British preferential tariff, 20 per cent; intermediate tariff, 27J per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
(c)	Pen knives, jack-knives and pocket-knives of all kinds: British preferential tariff, 20 per cent; intermediate tariff, 27i per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
(d)	Knives, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 20 per cent: intermediate tariff, 271 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
(e)	Spoons:	British preferential tariff, 20
per cent; intermediate tariff, 27J per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
(f)	Scissors and shears, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 20 per cent: intermediate tariff, 271 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
(g)	Razors and razor blades: British preferential tariff, 20 per cent; intermediate tariff, 271 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
James Dew Chaplin: Under (a) of this item
what were the importations?


Charles Avery Dunning: They were $10,000,
chiefly from the United States.


James Dew Chaplin: And none from Great
Britain?


Charles Avery Dunning: There were some importations, but quite small.


Thomas McMillan: Here is a class of articles that we get from Great Britain of the very best quality, and if we want to encourage trade with the home land, as has been said so often by the finance minister, these articles should be placed on the free list.


Alexander McKay Edwards: Is the hon.
member sure he can get those articles better in Britain than in Canada?


Thomas McMillan: Yes, that has been my experience. For instance, we get our best ditching spades from Great Britain. Many a time I have waited until my dealer could send to Britain for them. There is no comparison. We should encourage the importation of these goods from Great Britain.


Alexander McKay Edwards: Would the
hon. gentleman prefer to buy them there rather than in Canada?


Thomas McMillan: I prefer to get the best
I can get.


Mr. LUCHKOVICH:: Many of these things are brought in from Germany. I purchased some time ago razor blades made in Germany.


Charles Avery Dunning: On item (b) the imports last year were $558,000, of which $402,000 came from the United Kingdom and $110,000 from the United States. Perhaps my hon. friend from South Huron (Mr. McMillan) is not aware of the fact that the United Kingdom imposes a 20 per cent duty against Canadian knives and forks. That is one of the items covered by the present so-called safeguarding duties of the United Kingdom. Under item (c) the imports were $315,000, of which $205,000 came from Germany and $78,000 from Great Britain. Under item (d)-that was a basket item formerly, an n.o.p. item-the total imports were $433,000, of which $204,000 came from the United Kingdom and $150,000 from the United States. We also bring spoons into the cutlery group under item (e), but I have not any information on the value of spoons imported, because they were not separately classified before. Under the scissors group we imported $178,000, of which $101,000 came from Germany and $63,000 from the United States. So far as the razor group is concerned, we imported $109,000, of which $55,000 came from Germany and $30,000 from the United States. As to (g), razors and razor blades, we imported $109,000, of which $44,000 came from Germany, $34,000 from the United States, and $22,000 from Great Britain.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-430. Nuts and bolts with or without threads, washers, rivets, of iron or steel, coated or not; nut and bolt blanks, of iron or steel; per one hundred pounds: British preferential tariff, 50 cents; intermediate tariff, 50 cents; general tariff, 75 cents.
And, British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 20 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Thomas Cantley: What is the reason for
reducing the duty on nuts and bolts while the next item remains practically as it was before?


Charles Avery Dunning: It depends upon which
comparison my hon. friend is taking in connection with the next item. Of nuts and bolts in 1929 we imported $593,000, of which $570,000 came from the United States and $22,000 from the United Kingdom. This is one of the items of which my hon. friend from Macken-
2460	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
zie (Mr. Campbell) would say: Of course, there is no chance of doing any business with Great Britain; the imports are relatively small. I may tell him that although in many of these items the imports from the United Kingdom are small, I fully expect that the United Kingdom will be able to take the trade from the United States. This is one of them.


James Dew Chaplin: No chance. Raise the
American tariff and you will accomplish your purpose.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: You have both a specific and an ad valorem duty in this item.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, it is the same in that regard as formerly, but reduced.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-430a. Hinges and butts, of iron or steel, coated or not; hinge and butt blanks, of iron or steel: per one hundred pounds: British preferential tariff, 75 cents; intermediate tariff', 75 cents; general tariff, 75 cents.
And, British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 274 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-430b. Screws, of iron or steel, coated or not:
(I)	Wood screws: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
(II)	Machine and other screws, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Edmond Baird Ryckman: I find that item 352b, already passed, reads this way:
Screws of brass, copper or other metal, n.o.p.:
(a)	Wood screws.
(b)	Machine and other screws, n.o.p.
This item reads:
Screws, of iron or steel, coated or not:
(I)	Wood screws.
(II)	Machine and other screws, n.o.p.
I am interested in cap and set screws, and I wish to ask the minister if these screws come under item 352b; if they do, I am satisfied. I think they ought to be taken out of item 430b if they are included in item 352b. Frankly I must admit that I do not know which item covers these screws. If cap and set screws are allowed to remain in item 430b an important industry will be very much affected; there is however no objection to their remaining under item 352b.


Charles Avery Dunning: The distinction is drawn in the material of which the screws are made. Item 352b covers what is left of the screws after the iron and steel screws dealt with in the present item are taken out. No change 
was made in the rate of duty under item 352b, because no inquiry had been made with respect to screws of materials other than iron and steel.


James Dew Chaplin: I think the item of cap and set screws referred to by the hon. member comes under the heading of machine screws.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, they do.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: I must admit that I am at sea. Item 352b refers to machine and other screws; item 430fo refers to machine and other screws; they both refer to metal screws.


Charles Avery Dunning: The two items are governed by the phrase at the beginning. In this item we have:
Screws of iron or steel, coated or not:
(I) Wood screws.
(IX) Machine and other screws, n.o.p.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Can the minister tell me why cap and set screws would come in under item 430b but not under item 352b?


Charles Avery Dunning: They would come in under item 430b if they were made of iron and steel. When made of brass, copper or any other material they come in under item 352b.


James Dew Chaplin: Item 352b refers to brass, copper or other metal, but does not refer to steel.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Surely that includes steel.


Charles Avery Dunning: No, the item contains the expression "not otherwise provided."


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Do cap and set screws come under item 430b?


Charles Avery Dunning: They do if they are of iron and steel; if they are made of brass they would come under item 352b.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Item 352b says "screws of brass, copper or other metal."


Charles Avery Dunning: "N.o.p."-not otherwise provided.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Item 430b refers to machine and other screws, n.o.p.


Charles Avery Dunning: They are of iron and steel. My hon. friend has not read the first line. The item is:
Screws of iron or steel, coated or not:
(I)	Wood screws.
(II)	Machine and other screws, n.o.p.
The first line of the item covers the articles in question.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: I will not ask for any further elucidation by the minister. I would ask however if representations have been

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
made in connection with this item. I know of an important industry which will be very seriously affected if cap and set screws come in under item 430b; it will not be affected however if they come in under item 352b.


Charles Avery Dunning: I have no recollection
of any representations in regard to the matter; it appears to be well understood.


Alexander McKay Edwards: What was the importation of set screws from the United
States?


Charles Avery Dunning: 
Alexander McKay Edwards: How much
came from Great Britain?


Charles Avery Dunning: About $3,000 worth.


Mr. CAYLEY:: I have noticed that the
general rate is reduced from 35 per cent to 30 per cent. Has there been a change in the drawback on raw materials? I am particularly interested in this item because we have a flourishing factory at Ingersoll engaged in the production of these commodities.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, there is a reduction in the drawback from 99 per cent to 60 per cent. Representations have been made in connection with this item, which I am now considering. My hon. friend from East Toronto may have been referring to the fact mentioned by the hon. member for South Oxford.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: No. I have in my hand a copy of a letter addressed to W. H. Moore, Chairman of the Tariff Advisory Board.


Charles Avery Dunning: Under what date ?


Edmond Baird Ryckman: It is a copy of a letter, and apparently it is not dated.


Charles Avery Dunning: Probably it is an old
one.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: No. The letter is as
follows:
It is in these circumstances that we visited you on the 7th instant and to ask that cap and set screws be excepted from item 430h (II). If these could be excepted from 430b (II) and made to fall under item 352b such a change would enable us to hold this business.


Thomas Merritt Cayley: I have had similar correspondence regarding this item from the John Morrow Screw and Nut Company, Limited,
of Ingersoll, stating that in view of the fact that they were affected both by the reduction in tariff and by the drawback, they could hardly expect to meet competition.


Charles Avery Dunning: I am considering representations regarding the drawback item.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: This represents another
instance of tariff revision by which no good will come to this country and men will be thrown out of employment, because, as was stated by the minister a moment ago, he is unfamiliar with the matter.


Charles Avery Dunning: I made no such admission.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: The hon. gentleman
made the earnest plea a few minutes ago that we remember he has not been very long in his present office, and that he is not as familiar with these matters as he had hoped to be.


Charles Avery Dunning: I did not say that.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: 
Charles Avery Dunning: Whatever my hon. friend may say about my inexperience he will no doubt admit that there has never been as careful an examination into tariff matters as has been made by the Tariff Advisory Board of Canada in connection with the iron and steel items. That is a fact generally admitted by the industry. The best evidence of the efficiency of that investigation is the small number of complaints I have received from the industry.


James Dew Chaplin: I would like the minister to explain the two items before us. In the first place we have item 352b dealing with:
Screws of brass, copper or other metal, n.o.p.:
(a) Wood screws.
This item must refer to brass, copper or other metals.
2462	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Charles Avery Dunning: Not otherwise provided.


James Dew Chaplin: Yes. Then we have:
(b) Machine and other screws, n.o.p.
Then in item 430b we find:
Screws of iron or steel, coated or not:
(I)	Wood screws.
(II)	Machine and other screws, n.o.p.
This item refers to screws of iron or steel. I do not know which is the main item; I do not know which deals with steel machine and cap and other screws, and I do not think . either of these items shows me.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is plain enough, 430b covers screws of iron or steel. The whole item is governed by the first line, which says, "screws, of iron or steel.'1 The second part of 430b deals with machine and other screws of iron or steel, n.o.p.


Thomas Merritt Cayley: Was the John Morrow Company represented at the hearings?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Thomas Merritt Cayley: On this particular item?


Charles Avery Dunning: They were present at the hearing. Offhand I cannot say to what extent they may have taken part in the discussion.


Thomas Merritt Cayley: When this item was being
considered?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, they were present
during those days.


Thomas Merritt Cayley: But I have the assurance
that the minister will give this matter consideration?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am giving consideration to the argument with respect to the drawback, not with respect to this item.


James Dew Chaplin: I should like to ask one
more question of the minister with respect to Item 352b. What does "other metals" mean? What is the object of having those words in there?


Charles Avery Dunning: Any metal other than
iron or steel, which is dealt with in this item.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Platinum, for instance?


Charles Avery Dunning: Anything.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-430c. Wiring roofing nails of all sizes and wire nails one inch or more in length, of iron or steel, coated or not, per one hundred pounds: British preferential tariff. 40 cents: intermediate tariff, 55 cents: general tariff, 60 cents.
Item agreed to.
fMr. Chaplin.]
Customs tariff-430d. Cut nails, of iron or steel, coated or not, per one hundred pounds: British preferential tariff, 30 cents; intermediate tariff, 45 cents; general tariff, 50 cents.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-430e. Wire nails less than one inch in length, and nails, brads or tacks of all kinds, n.o.p., of iron or steel, coated or not: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 30 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-430f. Railway spikes, of iron or steel, coated or not: British preferential tariff, 20 per cent; intermediate tariff, 30 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
James Dew Chaplin: Why was this changed
from a specific to an ad valorem duty?


Charles Avery Dunning: It developed in the discussion as being a more satisfactory way of dealing with the matter, having regard to the nature of the commodity. All other goods of this type in the group are ad valorem.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Is the duty raised or
lowered?


James Dew Chaplin: Immediately above we
have cut nails and things of that kind under
a specific duty.


Charles Avery Dunning: Replying to my hon.
friend (Mr. Kennedy) I may say there is no change in the duty.


James Dew Chaplin: I cannot understand why you change it from one to the other. In the two items above, 430c and 430d, you have a specific duty, and here you change to an ad valorem duty.


Charles Avery Dunning: If my hon. friend will
look at the succeeding items he will find that spikes generally are on an ad valorem basis.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-430g. Spikes, of iron or steel, coated or not, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 20 per cent: intermediate tariff, 30 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Thomas Cantley: ' Why the reduction on railway spikes and no reduction on the next item?


Charles Avery Dunning: There is no reduction
on railway spikes.


Thomas Cantley: There is quite a change, then.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, from specific to ad valorem, but on the same basis.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Charles Avery Dunning: But the shovels referred
to there are concrete machinery and power
Customs tariff-431. Shovels and spades, of iron or steel, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent: intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-431a. Axes: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Edmond Baird Ryckman: Why i9 this item in
the tariff? It seems there is no change whatever.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is a matter of renumbering. It was a part of the agricultural implement group before, and we had to renumber the whole group and name the items.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Apparently it was under item 449, and all the items in 449 were made free with the exception of axes. Is that not so?


Charles Avery Dunning: No, that is not so.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: What is the difference
between the duty on the other articles under present item 449 and the present provision *with regard to axes?


Charles Avery Dunning: Item 449 consisted of
axes, scythes, sickles or reaping hooks, hay or straw knives, edging knives, hoes, rakes, n.o.p., and pronged forks.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: How was it dealt with?


Charles Avery Dunning: Axes are removed from
the purely agricultural item and put into this item by themselves, with no change in duty. The other items are included under new item 409i in the agricultural implement group, made free under the British preference, with the other rates unchanged. [DOT]


Edmond Baird Ryckman: I know a little about
a farm, and I think an axe is an agricultural implement found upon a farm as frequently as a hoe or a rake. Will the minister tell me why the farmer receives different treatment with regard to axes from what he receives with regard to hoes and rakes? How was the conclusion arrived at?


Charles Avery Dunning: Of course an axe is a
tool; it is in the tool group.


James Dew Chaplin: Are shovels and spades
in the tool group?


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: During the budget
speech the minister said he was making free under the British preference other machinery formerly dutiable, including machines for grading roads, cranes and shovels.
shovels.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Steam shovels?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, power shovels for road making.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Why are hoes and rakes free under the British preference while axes have a protection of 10 per cent?


Charles Avery Dunning: The tools which are
specifically agricultural implement tools are grouped together, and are now free under the British preference. Axes, shovels, spades, and tools of that kind still carry a 10 per cent duty. They are not specifically agricultural implements, as scythes are. The lumberman does not use a scythe.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Of course you have been on a farm, I suppose; I know I have been on a farm, and I think the axe is as much a farmer's tool as a hoe.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is equally a lumberman's tool.


James Dew Chaplin: There are more scythes used to-day by the railways than are used on the farm.


Charles Avery Dunning: Perhaps that is so.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-431b.	Adzes, anvils, vises,
cleavers, hatchets, saws, augers, bits, drills, files, rasps, screwdrivers, planes, spokeshaves, chisels, mallets, metal wedges, wrenches, sledges, hammers, crowbars, cantdogs, and track tools, picks, mattocks and eyes or polls for the same: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 27£ per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-431c. Precision tools, viz.: combination squares, slide calipers, micrometers, depth thickness or screw pitch gauges, rules, and measuring tapes of metal: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate ariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-432. Hollow-ware, of iron or steel, coated or not, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 27i per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
John Gordon Ross: What is this
item? What comes under this?


Charles Avery Dunning: This covers ordinary iror hollow-ware, the ordinary black iron, painted or otherwise covered. The imports last year amounted to approximately $198,000, mostly from the United States although some came from Great Britain.
2464	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


George Gibson Coote: Does this include kitchen ware?
Mr, DUNNING: No, the next item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tarif-432a. Kitchen and dairy hollow-ware of iron or steel, coated with tin, including cans for shipping milk or cream, not painted, japanned or decorated: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 17i per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
John Gordon Ross: How much of that comes from the old country?


Charles Avery Dunning: The total imports in 1929 were valued at $76,000.


James Dew Chaplin: Will the minister give us the importations under this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: The importations of dairy utensils were valued at about $9,000, coming from the United Kingdom. There are different classifications and it is rather difficult to extract the items.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tarif-432b. Hollow-ware, of iron or steel, coated with vitreous enamel: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 274 per cent; general tariff, 35 per cent.
William Cameron Edwards: What were the importations from Great Britain of this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: 


Alexander McKay Edwards: How much from Germany?


Charles Avery Dunning: About $81,000 worth.


Alexander McKay Edwards: And Sweden?


Charles Avery Dunning: There is no detail for Sweden; it would not be much in any event.


Alexander McKay Edwards: And from
Czechoslovakia?


John Gordon Ross: Is this one of the items where we might expect the development of trade from the old country?


Charles Avery Dunning: The importations from the United Kingdom last year amounted to about 880,000.


John Gordon Ross: There is a 10 per cent advantage against competitors.


James Dew Chaplin: It was 15 per cent before.


Charles Avery Dunning: The importations from Czechoslovakia amounted to $19,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Customs tariff-432c.	Containers manufactured from tinplate, when imported by manufacturers of food products for use exclusively in the hermetical sealing of food products, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 22J per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-432d. Manufactures of tinplate, painted, japanned, decorated or not, and manufactures of tin, n.o.p: British preferential tariff; 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 224 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent. '
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-433. Baths, bathtubs, basins, closets, lavatories, urinals, sinks, and laundry tubs of iron or steel, coated or not: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 35 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-434. Locomotives, and motor cars, for railways, and chassis, tops, wheels, and bodies for the same, n.o.p.: British preferential tarif, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 30 per cent; general tariff, 35 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-435. Locomotives and motor cars for railways, of a class or kind not made in Canada, for use exclusively in mining or metallurgical operations: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-436. Locomotives and railway passenger, baggage and freight cars, being the property or under the control of railway companies in the United States, running upon any line or road crossing the frontier, so long as Canadian locomotives and cars are admitted free under similar circumstances into the United States, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff -; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-437.	Locomotives, cars and
coaches and repair equipment, belonging to railroads, brought temporarily into Canada for the purpose of clearing obstructions, fighting fires or making emergency repairs on railway lines within Canada: British preferential tariff, -; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-438. Railway cars and parts thereof, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 27J per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
George Gibson Coote: What were the importations under this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: Valued at $2,000,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Customs tariff-439. Bicycles and tricycles, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 20 per cent; intermediate tariff, 274 per cent; general tarff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-439a.	Articles, of iron or
steel, wholly or in part of nickel or electroplated, when imported by manufacturers of bicycles or tricycles for use exclusively in the manufacture of bicycles or tricycles, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister:	British preferential tariff, 15
per cent; intermediate tariff, 274 Per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-439b. Cars, n.o.p., wheelbarrows, trucks, road or railway scrapers and hand carts: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent: intermediate tariff, 274 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-439c.	Farm -wagons, farm
sleds, logging wagons, logging sleds, and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, free: intermediate tariff, 10 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Donald MacBeth Kennedy: What were the importations of this item from Great Britain?


Charles Avery Dunning: The total importations
were valued at $436,000, all from the United States. I do not suppose my hon. friend would want the rate raised against Great Britain?


James Dew Chaplin: Raised as against the
United States.


Charles Avery Dunning: Is that what the hon.
member for Peace River (Mr. Kennedy) desires?


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I wanted to know if
there was any real meaning in this item.


Charles Avery Dunning: Only that it is absurd
to have a duty against Great Britain.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-439d. Freight wagons, drays, sleighs, n.o.p., and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-439e. Buggies, cutters, carriages, pleasure carts and vehicles, n.o.p.; complete parts of all the foregoing: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 10 per cent; general tariff, 15 per cent.
James Dew Chaplin: Does the minister expect any importations from Great Britain of this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: There would not appear to be any expectation of importations of
buggies and cutters.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-439f. Children's carriages, sleds and other vehicles; complete parts of ali the foregoing: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Charles Avery Dunning: I have been asked to allow this item to stand.


Mr. BOIVIN:: I have received some communications from manufacturers which I would like to submit to the minister.


Alexander McKay Edwards: I am glad to have the assistance of the hon. member for Shefford.	%


Charles Avery Dunning: We will let the item stand until after the dinner recess.


James Dew Chaplin: What were the importations of this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: They totalled $174,000, of which $131,000 worth came from the United States.


James Dew Chaplin: Where did the balance come from?


Charles Avery Dunning: I will have that information after dinner.
Item stands.
Customs tariff-440. Ships and other vessels built in any foreign country, if British registered, since September 1, 1902, on application for licence to engage in the Canadian coasting trade; on the fair market value of the hull, rigging, machinery, boilers, furniture and appurtenances thereof (as provided in part XVI of the Canada Shipping Act): British preferential tariff, -; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-440a. Vessels, dredges, scows, yachts, boats and other water-borne craft, buiit outside of Canada, of any material, destined for use or service in Canadian waters (not including registered vessels, entitled to engage in the coasting trade, nor vessels in transit between Canada and any place outside thereof), n.o.p.; on the fair market value of the hull, rigging machinery, boilers, furniture, and appurtenances thereof, on arrival in Canada: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Provided that regulations may be prescribed by the minister for exemption from further duty after the duty specified in this item is once paid.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-440b. _ Life boats and life saving apparatus specially imported by societies to encourage the saving of human life: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]


Trays and Means-Customs Tariff
Customs tariff-440c. Racing shells when imported by a bona fide amateur rowing club in Canada for use exclusively by such club: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 23 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-440d. Anchors for vessels: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-440e. Wire rope for use exclusively for rigging of ships and vessels, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; 'intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-440f. Iron or steel masts, or parts thereof; iron or steel angles, beams, knees, plates and sheets; cable chain; all the foregoing for ships and vessels, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-440g. Manufactures of iron, brass or other metal, of a class or kind not made in Canada, for use exclusively in the construction or equipment of ships or vessels, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-440h. Chronometers and compasses, and parts thereof, including cards therefor, of a class or kind not made in Canada, for ships or aircraft: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-440i. The following articles and materials when imported by manufacturers of automatic gas buoys and automatic gas beacons, for use in the manufacture of such buoys and beacons, for the government of Canada, for marine signal purposes or for export, under regulations prescribed by the minister, viz: iron or steel tubes over sixteen inches in diameter; flanged and dished steel heads made from boiler plate, over five feet in diameter; hardened steel balls, not less than three inches in diameter; acetylene gas lanterns and parts thereof; and tobin bronze in bars or rods: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-440j. Trawls, trawling spoons, fly hooks, sinkers, swivels, sportsmen's fishing bait and fishing hooks, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 20 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
[Mr. Dunning.1
Customs tariff-440k. Engines and complete parts thereof, to be used exclusively in the propulsion of boats or in hoisting nets and lines used in such boats bona fide owned by individual fishermen for their own use in the fisheries, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 12J per cent; general tariff, 15 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-4401. Aircraft and complete parts thereof, not including engines, under regulations prescribed by the minister:	British
preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 27J per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-440m. Engines, and complete parts thereof, when imported for use only in the equipment of aircraft: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 74 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
On and after July 1, 1930: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 27 J per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-441. Guns, rifles, including air guns and air rifles not being toys; muskets, cannons, pistols, revolvers, or other firearms; cartridge cases, cartridges, primers, percussion caps, wads, or other ammunition, n.o.p.; bayonets, swords, fencing foils and masks; gun or pistol covers or cases, game bags, loading tools and cartridge belts of any material:	British
preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 27J per cent: general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-441a. All tools and machinery not manufactured in Canada up to the required standard necessary for any factory to be established in Canada for the manufacture of rifles for the government of Canada, under regulations prescribed by the minister:	British
preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-441b. All materials or parts in the rough unfinished, and screws, nuts, bands and springs, to be used in rifles to be manufactured at any factory, to be established in Canada for the manufacture of rifles, for the government of Canada, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-441c. Steel imported by manufacturers for use in their own factories in manufacturing rough unfinished parts of rifles, when such parts are to be used in rifles to be made for the government of Canada, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Customs tariff-4413. Gun barrels, in single tubes, forged, rough-bored:	British preferential tarif free; intermediate tariff, free; general taralf, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-442.	Articles which enter
into the cost of manufacture of the goods enumerated in tariff items 409a, 409b, 409c, 409d, 409e, 409f, 409g, 409j, 409o, and 439c, when imported by manufacturers for use exclusively in the manufacture 5n their own factories of the goods enumerated in tariff items 409a, 409b, 409c, 409d, 409e, 409f, 409g, 409j. 409o. and 439c, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, 5 per cent; intermediate tariff, 6 per cent; general tariff, 6 per cent.
Provided that goods which are entitled to free entry or to a lower rate of duty than is mentioned in this item shall not be entered at the rate specified in this item.
Thomas Edward Simpson: Would the minister give us the importations under this and the following items?


Charles Avery Dunning: This is in regard to goods when imported by manufacturers for use exclusively in their own factories. There was $348,000 worth of castings imported, all from the United States, and imports of the other articles mentioned amounted to $4,321,000, of which $4,224,000 worth came from the United States. No change in the rate of duty is proposed.


George Gibson Coote: Would the minister mind giving us the importations under 4401 and 440m- aircraft?


Charles Avery Dunning: Under 4401, aircraft of
all kinds, the imports were $2,156,000, of which $1,504,000 worth came from Great Britain.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-442a. Pig iron or hot rolled iron or steel, when imported by manufacturers for use exclusively in the manufacture, in their own factories, of the goods enumerated in tariff items 409a, 409b, 409c, 409d, 409e, 409f, 490g, 490j, 409o, and 439c, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
John Franklin White: Will the minister
give the imports of pig iron and hot rolled iron or steel separately?


Charles Avery Dunning: Iron in pigs, $128,000,
all from the United States; rolled iron and steel, $3,211,000, of which $3,198,000 worth came from the United States.


John Franklin White: And this is the
way the minister is helping the primary industry!
24X9-156J


Charles Avery Dunning: Well, I have helped them, and I am trying now under this item not to hurt the others.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-442b. Materials which enter into the construction and form part of cream separators when imported by manufacturers of cream separators for use exclusively in the manufacture of cream separators, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British.preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-442c. Articles of metal when imported by manufacturers of cream separator parts for use exclusively in the manufacture of cream separator parts, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff', free.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Just before six, may I
ask of the minister a question which has nothing to do with this item? Will the minister have this whole schedule revised with all changes, and reprinted for distribution to the members in that form when it is completed?


Charles Avery Dunning: As a matter of fact it
will be that form in the bill.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I mean with the extensions.


Charles Avery Dunning: There are about thirty
changes. We shall endeavour to have that done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 202, for the relief of Mary Ada St. George.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 203, for the relief of Sam Finkel-stein.-Mr. Heaps.
Bill No. 204, for the relief of Martha Barker.-Mr. Gray.
Bill No. 205, for the relief of Jane Ella Pettigrew Thomson.-Mr. Bell (St. Antoine).
Bill No. 206, for the relief of Margaret Jean McClelland Dewar.-Mr. Hay.
Bill No. 207, for the relief of Ada Margaret Ruddick.-Mr. McPhee.
Bill No. 208, for the relief of Wilhelmina Emily Rudolph.-Mr. Bell (St. Antoine).
Private Bills
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 209, for the relief of Mabel Orion Baldwin.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 210, for the relief of Antoine George Massabky.-Mr. Sanderson.
Bill No. 211, for the relief of Dorothy Agnes Dowling.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 212, for the relief of Arthur Leslie Catton.-Mr. Maybee.
Bill No. 213, for the relief of Ruth Lyford Smith.-Mr. Bell (St. Antoine).
Bill No. 214, for the relief of Rhona Elizabeth Shaw Richardson.-Mr. Black (Yukon).
Bill No. 215, for the relief of Richard Trawny Parsons.-Mr. Harris.
Bill No. 216, for the relief of Armand Dufour.-Mr. Geary.
Bill No. 217, for the relief of Jessie Lillian Gwen Richmond-Parry.-Mr. Sanderson.
Bill No. 218, for the relief of Christina Dale Kingsbury.-Mr. Maybee.
Bill No. 219, for the relief of Gladys Hol-lings.-Mr. Spence.
Bill No. 220, for the relief of Nellie Louise Hughes.-Mr. Anderson (Toronto-High Park).
Bill No. 221, for the relief of Minnie Roberts.-Mr. Black (Yukon).
Bill No. 222, for the relief of Isabella Glennie Lefever.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 223, for the relief of Aileen Somerville Thomas.-Mr. Gray.
Bill No. 224, for the relief of Harris Charlton Eckmiere.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 225, for the relief of Rhea Blanche Wilson.-Mr. Harris.
Bill No. 226, for the relief of Edna Wall.- Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 227, for the relief of Thomas Edwin Warburton.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 228, for the relief of Thomas Garfield McCormick.-Mr. White (London).
Bill No. 229, for the relief of Thomas Richardson.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 230, for the relief of Leslie Gregory. -Mr. Black (Yukon).
Bill No. 231, for the relief of Muriel Laburnam Christie.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 232, for the relief of Edith Matilda Epplett.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 233, for the relief of Ruth Victoria Spooner.-Mr. Black (Yukon).
Bill No. 234, for the relief of John Henry Coulter.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 235, for the relief of Gertrude Anne Williams.-Mr. Casseknan.
Bill No. 236, for the relief of Leonard George Edward Bond.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 237, for the relief of Grant Johnston.-Mr. Baldwin.
Bill No. 238, for the relief of Burton Orland Boomhower.-Mr. Peck.

Bill No. 239, for the relief of Augusto Tranzzi.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 240, for the relief of Claire Yale Lacourse.-Mr. McPhee.
Bill No. 241, for the relief of Marion Frances Blewett.-Mr. Peck.
Bill No. 243, for the relief of Florence Edna Curliss.-Mr. Young (Toronto Northeast).
Bill No. 245, for the relief of Hilda Walker Baker.-Mr. Young (Toronto Northeast).
Bill No. 246, for the relief of Mary Violet Baxter.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 247 for the relief of Harry Hutcherson Davis.-Mr. Sanderson.
Bill No. 248 for the relief of James Lewis Watterworth.-Mr. Taylor.
Bill No. 249 for the relief of Harvey Men-nie Cross.-Mr. Church.
Bill No. 250 for the relief of Muriel Parke Wood.-Mr. Black (Yukon).
Bill No. 251 for the relief of Albert Hull. -Mr. Ryckman.
Bill No. 252 for the relief of Jessie Coles.- Mr. Young (Toronto Northeast).
Bill No. 253 for the relief of Annie Almeda McCormick.-Mr. Ross (Kingston).
Bill No. 254 for the relief of Madeleine Schnarr Niohol.-Mr. Ross (Kingston).
Bill No. 255 for the relief of Phyllis Gertrude Smith.-Mr. Anderson (Toronto High Park).
Bill No. 256 for the relief of Josephine Laura Calder,.-Mr. Young (Toronto Northeast).
Bill No. 257 for the relief of Minerva Gray. -Mr. Young (Toronto Northeast).
Bill No. 258 for the relief of Mary Jane McCrossan.-Mr. Harris.
Bill No. 259 for the relief of Robert Bruce Hart.-Mr. Harris.
Bill No. 260 for the relief of Hetmanska Beret.a.-Mr. Harris.
Bill No. 261 for the relief of Lillian Alberta Spariling.-Mr. McQuarrie.
Bill No. 262 for the relief of Ebenezer Ward Bussell.-Mr. Anderson (Toronto High Park).
Motion for third readings agreed to on division.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 266 for the relief of Sohuyller James Alton.-Mr. Ross ((Kingston).
Bill No. 267 for the relief of Mary Eva May Gourley.-Mr. Spence.
Bill No. 268 for the relief of John William James.-Mr. Spence.
Bill No. 269 for the relief of Elsie Aileen Clarke.-Mr. Spence.
Bill No. 270 for the relief of Orwell Bishop Walton.-Mr. Spence.
Bill No. 271 for the relief of Rosie Resnick. -Mr. Spence.

Private Bills
Bill No. 272 for the relief of Jessie Grant.- Mr. Young (Toronto Northeast).
Bill No. 273 for the relief of Ruby Helen Gordon.-Mr. Young (Toronto Northeast).
Bill No. 274 for the relief of Mary Isabelle Batstone.

Mr. Spence.
Bill No. 275 for the relief of Hanorah Margaret Phililemonia Atkinson.-Mr. Spence.
Bill No. 276 for the relief of Margaret Ann Fyfe.-Mr. Young (Toronto Northeast).
Bill No. 277 for the relief of Frederick John Wolfe.-Mr. Geary.
Bill No. 278 for the relief of Elsie Roselan Maguire.-Mr. Lennox.
Bill No. 279 . for the relief of Alice Reta Leadbeatter.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 280 for the relief of Gladys Evelyn Sandford.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 281 for the relief of Ethel May Henderson.-Mr. Pettit.
Bill No. 282 for the relief of Fred Townsley. -Mr. Casselman.
Bill No. 283 for the relief of Arthur Worrell Perkins.-Mr. Stinson.
Bill No. 285 for the relief of Walter Anderson Wood.-Mr. Ross (Kingston).
Bill No. 287 for the relief of Clara Delilah Latchford.-Mr. Hepburn.
Bill No. 289 for the relief of Cora Beatrice Silk.-Mr. Geary.
Bill No. 290 for the relief of Joseph Alphonse Lajoie.-Mr. Bell (St. Antoine).
Bill No. 291 for the relief of Gertude Alice Dorothy Lorimer.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 292 for the relief of Margaret Bradley.-Mr. Church.
Bill No. 293 for the relief of Marion Ramsay.-Mr. Young (Toronto Northeast).
Bill No. 294 for the relief of Nettie Maud Dixon.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 295 for the relief of Hazel Victoria Watt-Hewson.-Mr. Harris.
Bill No. 296 for the relief of Hubert Alien Frise.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 298 for the relief of Gladys Elizabeth Kirby.-Mr. Ladner.
Bill No. 299 for the relief of Henry Maynard Smillie.

Mr. Hepburn.
Motion for third readings agreed to on division.

Mr. P. F. CASGRAIN (Charlevoix-Sague-nay):: I beg to move thet Bill No. 263, respecting the capital stock of the Prudential Trust Company, Limited, and Bill No. 306, to incorporate the Industrial Loan and Finance Corporation, be considered in committee of the whole this day.


Rodolphe Lemieux: By leave of the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. S. W. JACOBS (Cartier) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendment made by the senate to Bill No. 50, respecting a certain patent application of Thomas Bernard Bourke and George Percival Setter.
The CHAIRMAN:: By an amendment made in the Senate the following has been added as section 2 of the bill:
2. If, during the period when the application was forfeited and before the date of publication of the notice of the petitioner's intention to apply to parliament for the passing of this act, any person has acquired any right in respect of the inventions to which that application had reference, then, in the event of the Commissioner of Patents making, as provided for by section one of this act, an order restoring and reviving that application, every such right shall be deemed to have had and to have the same force and effect as if this act had not been passed; but nothing in this section shall be deemed to derogate from the provisions contained in sections seven and eight of the Patent Act or to deprive the applicant of any bene6t therefrom.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I presume, Mr. Chairman, this amendment has been considered by the commissioner of patents and approved by the committee.


Pierre-François Casgrain: It is always done.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Not always.
Motion agreed to; amendment read the second time and concurred in.
ROiNNEY PATENT



CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Mr. S. W. JACOBS (Cartier) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendment made by the Senate to Bill No. 51, respecting a certain patent application of Harry Barrington Bonney.
Motion agreed to; amendment read the second time and concurred in.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. 306, to incorporate Industrial Loan and Finance Corporation-Mr. Casgrain-Mr. Johnston in the chair.
On section 1-Incorporation.
Mr. ADSHEAD:: Where is the bill?

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Pierre-François Casgrain: The bill is U4 of the Senate. It was passed yesterday by the Senate. This afternoon it was passed by the committee on banking and commerce and reported.
Sections 2 to 8 inclusive agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS On the order:
House in committee on Bill No. 39, respecting government contracts.-Mr. Guerin.


John Frederick Johnston: The select standing
committee on industrial and international relations recommends that this bill be not further proceeded with.
Bill dropped.



WAYS AND MEANS


[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of ways and means, Sir Eugene Fiset in the chair.
Customs tariff-443, Apparatus designed for cooking or for heating buildings.
(1)	For coal or wood: British preferential tariff, free: intermediate tariff, 22| per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent;
(2)	For gas: British preferential tariff, free: intermediate tariff, 221 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent;
(3)	For electricity: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 224 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent;
(4)	For oil: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 221 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent;
(5)	N.o.p.: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 221 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Mr. COTNAM:: Had the manufacturers of electrical heating and cooking appliances a hearing before the Tariff Advisory Board, and was the change contained in this item recommended by the tariff board?


Charles Avery Dunning: There was a very exhaustive hearing.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: I would like to know the amount of importations last year of appliances and equipment of this kind from the United States, England and Germany.


Charles Avery Dunning: You are referring to the electrical item?


Ira Delbert Cotnam: Yes.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: I would like the minister to give the importations under items (1), (2), (3), (4), and (5).


Charles Avery Dunning: Under one former electrical item the imports in 1929 were valued at $384,000, of which total sum $380,000 came from the United States. The other articles were entered under old item 362, but the total value of importations is not ascertainable; it was a general item.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Item 362 is not contained in the present item 443, if the reference numbers on the present tariff schedule are correct.


Charles Avery Dunning: Coal and wood stoves entered to the value of $35,000. They represent only part of that item because the old item included stoves for wood, coal, oil, or spirits, and the total importation of $35,000 came from the United States. Gas stoves entered to the value of $268,000, and all came from the United States.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: What about section No. 4, oil?


Charles Avery Dunning: There is no importation traceable: previously the oil stoves came in under item 451.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: What about the n.o.p item?


Charles Avery Dunning: The n.o.p. item previously was contained in a general item, and the imports are not separately traceable.
Mr. R\CKMAN: Is it fair to say that under item 443 there were no appreciable imports from Great Britain?


Charles Avery Dunning: I think that is correct.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Or from the British
Empire ?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: Would the minister tell me whether or not he has received protests from any of the manufacturers of these appliances?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, I think I had one communication regarding these appliances.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: I wish to enter a protest on behalf of an electrical appliances industry which is located in the constituency I have the honour to represent. At this time I shall read part of a letter from the general manager of the concern in question. It is as follows: We are manufacturers of electrical heating and cooking appliances and electric cooking ranges. We make what is considered by many one of the most complete lines of this type of equipment on the Canadian market and our

business consists exclusively of the manufacture of these goods. We understand the new budget is intended by its sponsors to help British industries market their products in Canada without retarding or decreasing the sale of Canadian made articles.	.	.
In so far as the electric heating and cooking appliance industry is concerned, this is not so. We believe that budget to be a decided detri- [DOT] ment to our efforts (instead of a help) to increase our business. It is decidedly a "slap in the face" and it is quite possible that the irreparable damage that -was done a few years ago to the Canadian woollen industry, by tariff tinkering, will be repeated-this time the electric heating and cooking appliances industry being the victim.
The following items on the budget affects our industry: Tariff item 443-Apparatus designed for cooking or for heating buildings (3) for electricity. These goods now enter free under the British preferential tariff. Previously there was a duty of 15 per cent. These goods now enjoy reduction of 2i per cent when entering Canada under both the intermediate and general tariffs, from the rates previously in effect. That is. the protection to the Canadian industry on goods entering from Germany and United States is reduced 2J per cent. Easily 75 per cent of the goods that we manufacture are affected by this classification. Now what do we get to compensate?
Tariff item 443a. A reduction of 2J per cent on electric tumbler and rotary switches.
Tariff item 443c. Compensating thermometers a reduction of 5 per cent. These may be imported free from England, but as far as we know there are none made there suitable for our purpose.
The above benefits are more than entirely wiped out bv 21 per cent increase in the duty on strip steel, tariff item 382c, which is now 15 per cent instead of 12J per cent. This type of steel is universally used for all nickel plated steel parts of our product and has been imported from the United States due to superior quality that can be secured. The British preferential and intermediate tariffs on this item remain as before.
No doubt tariff item 3861 is intended to benefit us but it does not. This covers steel sheets, cold rolled blue polished when imported by manufacturers of apparatus designed for cooking or for heating buildings for use in the manufacture of such appliances, and is free when imported from England. This class of steel is not used at all by us nor to any extent by any of our competitors, same being used by the manufacturers of gas, coal and wood ranges. Even if we did use it we doubt if it would be of any assistance, as the increase of uncrating, extra handling, etc., on British steel would offset the saving through the duty on United States manufactured product, as factory to factory carload shipments can be made where no crating is required. The crating of steel for a combination ocean and rail shipment is an expensive item.
I should like to read also an article from Hardware and Metal, a trade journal, under date of May 10, 1930, in which this statement is made:
We believe that the tariff changes mentioned in the recent budget will very seriously retard the Canadian electrical industry, and more particularly those manufacturers of electrical cooking and heating appliances which can now be imported absolutely free of duty under the British preferential tariff. Britain has long been recognized as a country of manufacturing specialists with centuries of experience, having the world markets well cultivated. It is theie-fore natural that they should enjoy huge production and low' costs.
There is absolutely nothing in the budget that begins to offset the hardships that have been placed on this young Canadian industry. It is interesting to note that the manufacturers ol large electrical machinery, that is generators, transformers, motors, insulators, electrical apparatus, n.o.p., are not affected except that in the latter classification the general tariff has been actually increased 24 per cent, which is probably as it should be. We are simply mentioning this to show that there apparently is no rhyme nor reason for this budget in so far as it affects the electrical heating and cooking appliance industry. There are several small manufacturing plants in Canada specializing in this type of equipment.
The King government apparently is not satisfied with destroving practically three-quarters of the Canadian woollen manufacturing industry. This year they are attempting to cruelty the electric heating and cooking appliance industry, which w-e believe deserves a helping hand instead of the reverse.
After the war, while Europe was still in an unsettled condition the Canadian electrical heating and cooking appliance industry, young though it is, actually succeeded in introducing their goods into several overseas markets, more particularly in other British dominions, and they have been putting up a real battle to hold a portion of that market in the face of keener and still keener European competition, io as it is impossible to find any good reason justifying the budget in so far as it affects the electric heating and cooking appliance industry.
This firm in my own constituency, of which I speak, employs about forty or fifty men, and its average payroll runs to between $45,000 and $50,000. That firm was incorporated in 1917, and after a great deal of difficulty succeeded in establishing a fair market for its products. From 1917 to 1924 it paid no dividends, yet they are being subjected under this budget to increased costs of production and increased competition from all British preferred countries, as well as increased competition from the United States and Germany through the reduction in the intermediate and general tariff of 2\ per cent. In view of that statement from men who are engaged in the industry I should like to ask the minister if he will not consider this change in the British preference rate and also in the intermediate and general tariffs.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Ira Delbert Cotnam: Will the minister not give my request any consideration at all? Will he not even answer?


Charles Avery Dunning: I was waiting to see if
there should be further remarks of a similar


Ira Delbert Cotnam: 
[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Customs tariff-443a. Electric tumbler and rotary switches and electric relay switches for automatic oven control, when imported by manufacturers of electric apparatus designed for cooking or for heating buildings, for use exclusively in the manufacture of electric apparatus designed for cooking or for heating buildings, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, 7£ per cent; intermediate tariff, 20 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-443b. Parts, when imported by manufacturers of electric switches for use exclusively in the manufacture of electric tumbler and rotary switches and electric relay switches for automatic oven control, for use on electric apparatus designed for cooking or for heating buildings: British preferential tariff, free: intermediate tariff, 12£ per cent; general tariff, 17£ per cent.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: What were the
importations of this item which is now being made free under the British preference?


Charles Avery Dunning: There is no way of
tracing the imports of this item. It is a new item, and a new industry is being established in connection with electrical switch manufacturing.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-443c.	Compensating thermometers or mercury thermometers, of a class or kind not made in Canada, when imported by manufacturers of apparatus designed for cooking or for heating buildings, for use exclusively in the manufacture of apparatus designed for cooking or for heating buildings, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister:	British preferential tariff,
free: intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Herbert Bealey Adshead: I would like to know the meaning of the phrase "when imported by manufacturers of apparatus", as well as the phrase "under regulations prescribed by the minister." Why is it that manufacturers and no one else can get these articles in free?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am sure the hon. member was listening to the hon. member for North Renfrew (Mr. Cotnam).


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Yes, I was.


Charles Avery Dunning: These last few items are concessions by way of tariff reductions on certain parts entering into the manufacture of stoves, which the hon. member for North Renfrew was discussing. The thermometers mentioned in this item would be of very little use to anyone but manufacturers, because they are built into the door of the stove.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Why shut them out?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am not shutting them out; I am making it easier for them to get in.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: What were the importations under this item, and where from?


Charles Avery Dunning: This is a new item. The articles covered by it previously came in under the item in the old tariff which provided for anything not elsewhere enumerated.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: There is no way of tracing the imports?


Charles Avery Dunning: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-443d. Stove urns of metal, and dovetails, chaplets and hinge tubes of tin, when imported by manufacturers of apparatus designed for cooking or for heating buildings, for use exclusively in the manufacture of apparatus designed for cooking or for heating buildings, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 71 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: What were the importations under this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: They amounted to
$35,000, all from the United States. A reduction is being made in the British preferential tariff.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-444. Gas meters, and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 30 per cent; general tariff, 35 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-444a. Gas, coal oil or other lighting fixtures and appliances, n.o.p., including tips, burners, collars and galleries; gas mantles and incandescent gas burners; complete part® of all the foregoing: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 271 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-444b. Lamp shades, n.o.p., and shade holders: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 271 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-445. Electric light fixtures and appliances, n.o.p., and complete parts thereof:	British preferential tariff, 15 per cent;
intermediate tariff, 271 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Robert Edwy Ryerson: This is the item I mentioned this afternoon, which affects a very important industry in the city of Brantford. Has the minister received any representations from the manufacturers of these articles?


Charles Avery Dunning: We have received a letter from one company.
2474	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Robert Edwy Ryerson: This industry is a very important one in the city of Brantford and employs about 150 hands. They manufacture the better grade of electric light fixtures, and their complaint is that with the decrease in the British preference their chief competitor will be the British manufacturer, who is able to obtain his material free of duty while they have to pay a duty of 30 per cent on the bulk of their raw material. I would appeal to the minister to give some consideration to this industry.


Charles Avery Dunning: I am afraid I cannot hold out much hope.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Have courage.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is expected that some business will be diverted to Great Britain. Last year the importations from the United States under this item amounted to $1,102,000; while only a very small amount came from Great Britain. It was thought that there would be an opportunity to switch some of this business to the old country without injury to Canadian industry. We heard from only one firm which seemed to be apprehensive from this point of view.


Mr. RY ERSON:: This company manufactures a very high class article, and at the present time their chief competitors are the English manufacturers. There is no question that this tariff change will seriously menace their business.


Charles Avery Dunning: What particular article do they manufacture?


Robert Edwy Ryerson: Electric light fixtures.


Charles Avery Dunning: Shades and that sort of thing.


Robert Edwy Ryerson: Shades, but they are
under another item; they are not affected. It is the electric light fixtures that are affected. They manufacture a number of different lines. I think the minister has a letter from these people and I would appeal to him for some consideration in the matter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-445a. Electric head, side and tail lights; electric torches or flashlights: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 27£ per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.

Customs tariff-445b.	Electric arc lamps
and incandescent electric light lamps: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 27i per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Charles Avery Dunning: There is an error in leaving out the letters " n.o.p.," because of a later item. I would ask that the item be amended by adding the letters " n.o.p."


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Item as amended agreed to.
Customs tariff-445e. Electric telegraph or telephone apparatus and complete parts thereof: British pereferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 274 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-445d.	Electric wireless or
radio apparatus and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 27J per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-445e. Electric and galvanic batteries, n.o.p., and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 274 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-445f.	Electric dynamos or
generators and transformers, n.o.p., and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 27J per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-445g. Electric motors, n.o.p., and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 27J per cent.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: Could the minister give us some idea of the imports? I presume several of these items we have just passed are grouped, because they are under the same item in the old tariff. Could he give us the imports under items 435 and 453 of the old tariff, which seem to cover all these items?


Charles Avery Dunning: I have the imports separated under each of these items. The hon. member means starting from the beginning of item 445?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Yes. I assumed the minister had them under the old item, and that is why I waited until we got further down the list before asking for them.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Charles Avery Dunning: Under item 445a, formerly item 435, the imports-that is for the whole of item 435-were valued in 1929 at $1,644,000, of which 81,400,000 worth came from the United States.
Under item 445b, electric lamps to the value of S29,000 were imported, all from the United States; carbon lamps, to the value of $56,000, of which 840,000 came from Japan; metal lamps, to the value of 8134,000, of which $69.000 came from the United States and $27,000 from Japan.
Under item 445c, electric telegraph apparatus, 8493,000 worth was imported, of which $437,000 came from the United States. As regards telephone apparatus, $1,854,000 was imported of which $1,006,000 came from the United States and the balance from Great Britain.
Under item 445d, electric wireless, radio tubes, the imports were 8246,000, of which $220,000 came from the United States. As regards wireless and radio apparatus, n.o.p., $5,692,000 worth was imported, of which 85,601,000 came from the United States.
Under item 445e, electric primary batteries, the imports amounted to 890,000, of which 886.000 came from the United States. As regards storage batteries, n.o.p., the imports were S631.000, of which $319,000 came from Great Britain and $312,000 from the United States.
Under item 445f, electric dynamos and generators, the imports were $1,557,000, of which $1,250,000 came from the United States. As regards transformers, the imports were S482.000. of which $447,000 came from the United States.
Under item 445g, electric motors, n.o.p., the imports were $4,306,000, of which 83,500,000 came from the' United States.
Under item 445h, the imports of insulators, porcelain, amounted to $537,000, of which $435,000 came from the United States. As regards other insulators, the imports were $432,000, of which $416,000 came from the United States. I think that is the end of that group.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Why is it represented that there is a change in duty on the group of which the minister has just given the imports? They seem to be listed across the page at exactly the same rates.


Charles Avery Dunning: There is no representation of a change where a change does not occur.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Then what change did occur?


Charles Avery Dunning: The classification was changed by being split up so that we know under the different items what the exports and imports are.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: The reduction in the British preferential seems to be very trifling. In some cases it is from 20 per cent to 15 per cent, and in others there is no change at all.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend surely
heard his colleague complaining that the change would be sufficient to ruin the industry. We cannot be criticised both ways.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: This is another
industry. I was just wondering why there wa3 not a bigger reduction in the British preference. With the present reduction, is there any hope of transferring any of this vast volume of business to Great Britain?


Charles Avery Dunning: Wre are hoping so.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: On an increase
of 5 per cent in the British preference?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Mr. FRASER:: The minister is not decreasing the British preference in item 445c.


Charles Avery Dunning: We are discussing item
445g. The rate is the same in that case.


John Anderson Fraser: In the first three items:
445 ; 445a and 445b, the minister is decreasing the British preference.


Charles Avery Dunning: No, we are decreasing the rate, and thus increasing the British preference.


John Anderson Fraser: The British preference before was 20 per cent and and now it is 15 per cent.


Charles Avery Dunning: That is the rate. The
degree of the preference is the difference between the British preferential rate and the general rate. By decreasing the British preferential rate, you increase the preference.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Does the minister, by that trifling reduction, hope to transfer this trade?


Charles Avery Dunning: Some Canadian industries say that it will ruin them. Some United States industries are apprehensive that the British people will get the business the United States are now enjoying. The volume of trade is large and the British manufacturers are very much interested in capturing it.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Mr. ADSH  BAD@: If the volume of business going to the United States is so large, will it not be in line with the minister's policy to make the British preferential rate free?


Charles Avery Dunning: Each case must be considered on its merits in relation to Canadian industry as a whole. That is the only answer.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: There are about fourteen items, all alike.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-445h. Electric insulators of all kinds, n.o.p., and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 27i per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-445i. Electric sad irons and complete parts thereof:	British preferential
tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 27J per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-445j. Electric apparatus, of a class or kind not made in Canada, n.o.p., and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, free: intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-445k.	Electric apparatus,
n.o,p., and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
John Anderson Fraser: This is the last of the electric apparatus items. What is the total importation of electric apparatus, and what amount came from Great Britain and what amount from the United States?


Charles Avery Dunning: I shall have to look that up. It will probably take some time to do so, because under the old schedule electric apparatus came in under many designations, not because it was electrical, but because when the old tariff was devised, the developments in electricity were not what they are to-day. It would be very difficult to give accurate figures, but as an illustration I can give some of the imports under the n.o.p. item.


John Anderson Fraser: That would be a large percentage of the importations.


Charles Avery Dunning: Of switches and switchboards we imported, in round figures, 81,600,000. of which $1,500,000 came from the United States; spark plugs, and so forth, 81,100,000, of which 81,000,000 came from the United

States; self-contained lighting outfits, 892.000, of which $89,000 came from the United States; socket outlets and receptacles, 8352,000, of which $348,000 come from the United States; rheostat controllers, and so forth, 8756,000, of which $700,000 came from the United States; electric meters, $408,000, of which $365,000 came from the United States; electric fuses and fuse plugs, $293,000, all from the United States; electric fans $137,000, of which $135,009 came from the United States. In addition, a very great aggregation of small items of electrical apparatus, n.o.p., came in to the amount of $4,800,000, of which 84,600,000 came from the United States. We are proposing to give an advantage to Great Britain in connection with all of this apparatus wrhich is not made in Canada, by making it free under the British preference, as against 20 per cent under the general tariff. Wherever these goods are made in Canada, the spread in favour of Great Britain is increased by an increase in the United States duty.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-446. Manufactures, articles or wares, of iron or steel or of which iron or steel or both are the component materials of chief value, of a ^ class or kind not made in Canada, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff 20 per cent.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: What are the imports under this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: This is what we call the basket item for iron and steel, which means that everything that has not been specified in the schedules and cannot be named will come in under this item. All the imports cannot be traced, of course, but here are some of the principal ones: wire bale ties, 810,000, of which $7,000 came from the United States; locks of all kinds, $567,000, of which $493,000 came from the United States; builders' hardware, 8805,000, of which $702,000 came from the United States; parts of bicycles, $92,000, of which $64,000 came from Great Britain; drums, cylinders, barrels, etc., $1,461,000, of which $1,185,000 came from the Lnited States; horse shoes, mule shoes and ox shoes, $20,000, all from the United States; hatters' irons and tailors' irons, $2,000, of which $1,500 came from the United States; valves n.o.p., $920,000, of which $a50,000 came from the United States. Then there is a whole range of general items amounting to $14,000,000 in round figures, of which 812,000,000 came from the United States. Iron and steel n.o.p. is a large item, and what is proposed is to make these articles free from

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Great Britain, with a 20 per cent general tariff against the United States; and when they are made in Canada, 15 per cent British preference and 30 per cent under the general tariff. British industry is very greatly interested in this item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-446a. Manufactures, articles or wares, of iron or steel or of which iron or steel or both are the component materials of chief value, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-447. Water pumps, hand or power, for domestic purposes only: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: What are the
imports?


Charles Avery Dunning: We imported $572,000 of ordinary domestic pumps, of w'hich $540,000 came from the United States. It is proposed to make this article free under the British preference.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-448. Steel balls, for use only on bearings of machinery and vehicles: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 71 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-449.	Steel wool: British
preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 7i per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-450.	Skates of all kinds,
roller or other, and parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Edmond Baird Ryckman: What were the importations of skates from the British Empire?


Charles Avery Dunning: Our imports all told were $50,000, nearly all from the United States. I have not the United Kingdom total, but it must be quite small.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Who requested a reduction in the duty on skates of all kinds? The old duties were 22|, 32i and 35 per cent respectively, and these have been reduced to 15, 25 and 30 per cent respectively.


Charles Avery Dunning: The total imports, as I said, were $50,000. Canada exported skates to a value of $111,000, of which $95,000 went to the United States. We are exporting a much larger volume than we import. The old general tariff was 35 per cent. In view
of the fact that the industry gets a drawback on its materials, it is considered that a duty of 30 per cent is certainly adequate.


Harry Bernard Short: If we are building up a nice little industry like this-the minister says that we are exporting more to the United States than we import from that country- why kill it? Does the minister not want these exports?


Charles Avery Dunning: The industry still has a 30 per cent duty.


Harry Bernard Short: You are reducing the duties 2i, 7i and 5 per cent respectively. If the business is doing very well under the old rates, why change them?


Mr. YOUNG (Saskatoon):: The duties are high enough now. The industry should do well under the new rates.


Felix Patrick Quinn: It is doing well, but why try to kill it? This is an industry giving employment to our people. Why not let it continue?
I am not protesting for the sake of protesting. 'I have interrupted the minister very little since these tariff schedules have been under discussion, but there is an industry in the town of Dartmouth, the Starr Manufacturing Company, which the Minister of National Defence knows well, and I would refer the Minister of Finance to him if he were here. It is a splendid industry. The Starr Manufacturing Company makes the finest ice skates in the world.


Charles Avery Dunning: And exports them to ten countries.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Well, is not the minister
proud of that?


Charles Avery Dunning: Of course I am.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Should not every member on that side of the house be proud of it?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: We are.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Then I protest against the
reduction. What is the matter with the member for Saskatoon (Mr. Young)? Doesn't he like to see industry in the eastern part of Canada?


Alexander MacGillivray Young: Any industry
that can compete with ten countries on an even basis is doing pretty well. I know it; it is a splendid industry.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Then why take off the protection they are enjoying? They are not paying excessive dividends; they are just getting along and employing considerable labour.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


John Evans: Would the hon. member
permit a question there?


Felix Patrick Quinn: No, you are a free trader. I heard the member for Rosetown (Mr. Evans) the other night asking if the fruit and vegetable products of the West Indies could not be sent by a shorter route, and suggesting that they be sent through the port of Portland in preference to our maritime ports. I consider that unpatriotic and un-Canadian. I protest against this reduction in the tariff on skates.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is still 30 per cent.


John Evans: This is another case where
the manufacturer is carrying on very nicely. He is exporting his goods at the expense of the Canadian consumer by charging them a price which will give him a profit on the whole of his output.


Felix Patrick Quinn: No Canadians ever kicked
about the price they paid for skates.


An hon. MEMBER:: Yes, they have.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: I desire to say for the
benefit of members from the west, and especially for the benefit of the member for Rosetown, that skates with this protection are selling cheaper in Canada than they are in the United States.


Mr. YOUNG (Weyburn):: Why do you
need protection, then?


Harry Bernard Short: They have built up their
industry under protection. Why don't you let them alone? At whose request was this duty reduced?


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not know.


Harry Bernard Short: Was it brought before the
tariff board? Was any objection made by Mr. Deachman and his friends?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-451. Buckles, clasps, eyelets, hooks and eyes, dome, 6nap, hookless or other fasteners, of iron, steel, brass or other metal, coated or not, n.o.p. (not being jewellery): British preferential tariff, 20 per cent; intermediate tariff, 274 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-451a. Needles, of any material or kind, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 27J per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.

Customs tariff-451b. Pins manufactured from wire of any metal, n.o.p. British preferential tariff, 20 per cent; intermediate tariff, 274 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-451c. Corset clasps, busks, blanks, steels, and covered corset wires, cut to length, tipped or untipped; reed, rattan or horn, covered: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 274 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-451d. Metal glove fasteners, papier maehe shoe buttons, shoe eyelets, corset eyelets, shoe eyelet hooks, shoe lace wire fasteners: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-452. Metal tips, studs and eyes, when imported by manufacturers of corset clasps and corset wires for use exclusively in the manufacture of corset clasps and corset wires, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free: general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-453.	Metal parts when
imported by manufacturers of covered buttons for use exclusively in the manufacture of covered buttons, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 174 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: What are the imports, and from what countries do they come?


Charles Avery Dunning: The imports are $30,000, all from the United States.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-454. Frames not more than ten inches in width, clasps and fasteners, when imported by manufacturers of purses, chatelaine bags or reticules for use exclusively in the manufacture of purses, chatelaine bags or reticules, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 174 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: This item is free under the British preference. What were the imports?


Charles Avery Dunning: The imports were $147,000, of which $141,000 came from the United States.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-455. Ribs of brass, iron or steel, runners, rings, caps, notches, ferrules, mounts and sticks or canes in the rough, or not further manufactured than cut into lengths, suitable for umbrella, parasol, sunshade or walking sticks, when imported by manufacturers of umbrellas, parasols and sunshades for

IFny.s and Means-Customs Tanfj
use exclusively in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 74 per cent.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: What were the imports of this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: We imported $203,000, of which $116,000 came from the United States. That business will probably go to Great Britain in the future.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-456. Wire of brass, zinc, iron or steel, screwed, twisted, flattened or corrugated, for use exclusively in connection with nailing machines for the manufacture of boots and shoes, in boot and shoe factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-457. Tubs of metal, coated or not; metal frames for wringers, with or without metal fittings, coated or not; nickel plated copper sheets; all when imported by manufacturers of washing machines or wringers for use exclusively in the manufacture of washing machines or wringers, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free: intermediate tariff, 74 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Charles Avery Dunning: We heard this afternoon about the washing machine people, and I want to be very careful not to impose any hardship upon them. It will be noticed that there is quite a concession here by way of a reduction on the materials which enter into washing machines. It has been represented to me that a slight change is desirable. In the amendment the words "metal frames for wringers" are deleted, as these are included in the metal parts now covered by the item itself. So far as copper sheets are concerned, one manufacturer of washing machines advises me that he does his own nickel plating; therefore he desires to have the same right to bring in plain copper sheets as the other manufacturers have to bring in the nickel plated sheets. Another washing machine manufacturer advises me that in the cheaper type of washing machines zinc sheets are used; so I desire to insert that to come in at the low rate; also ball bearings. The amendment also provides for electric motors and gasoline engines of less than one horsepower for washing machine purposes. The amendment, Mr. Chairman, will read as follows:
Tubs of metal, coated or not; copper sheets, plated or not; zinc sheets, plated; ball bearings; gasoline engines and electric motors of less than one horse-power; all the foregoing
when imported by manufacturers of washing machines or wringers for use exclusively in the manufacture of washing machines or wringers, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Herbert Bealey Adshead: What is the tariff on washing machines?


Charles Avery Dunning: That was up this afternoon. There is a reduction.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: What were the imports under the first item?


Charles Avery Dunning: Formerly they entered according to the material under a variety of items impossible to trace. It is a new item entirely.


John Franklin White: Is not this another case where our primary manufacturers will suffer for the sake of putting washing machines on a lower schedule? Surely some of the manufacturers who make these articles will suffer.


Charles Avery Dunning: There have been no
objections with the single exception of that as to tubs of metal, coated or not. That is the only objection I have heard on the whole list.
Mr. WHITE (London)-:	No attention is
being paid to their objection?


Charles Avery Dunning: Having regard to the
situation of the industry in question, I think t-his concession to the washing machine people is a fair one.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-457a. Materials or articles of metal, of a class or kind not made in Canada, when imported by manufacturers of washing machines or wringers for use exclusively in the manufacture of washing machines or wringers, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 74 per cent.
Milton Neil Campbell: Has the minister had
any representation made to him for a slight amendment to this item? I understand that the Canadian Iron and Steel Company of Toronto asks that after the word "wringers" the word "clothes mangles or ironing machines" be inserted.


Charles Avery Dunning: I never heard of any
such application.


Milton Neil Campbell: I have a copy of a
letter before me dated May 28 which was

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
addressed by a customs broker in the city to the tariff commissioner. The date must be wrong, the letter having been in my hands for the last two days.


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not remember
seeing anything of the kind.


Milton Neil Campbell: I will send this over
to the minister. It is suggested that the item should read:
Materials or articles of metal, of a class or kind not made in Canada, when imported by manufacturers of washing machines, wringers, clothes mangles or ironing machines for use exclusively in the manufacture of washing machines, wringers, clothes mangles or ironing machines, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister.


Charles Avery Dunning: I am afraid it is rather
difficult to estimate offhand the effect of such a request.


Milton Neil Campbell: Perhaps the minister
could let the item stand.


Charles Avery Dunning: It must be borne in mind that these concessions to the people manufacturing washing machines and wringers are related to the rate of duty now imposed with respect to the finished article. There is a material reduction, as my hon. friend may remember, under both washing machines and wringers, and offhand I am not at all clear what the effect of the request may be. I never saw this letter before. I notice it is dated to-day.


Milton Neil Campbell: That must be a mistake.


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not think, without more inquiry than time will permit, that I could undertake to make such a change. It affects an entirely different group of articles.
CAMPBELL: I quite understand that, but I would ask the minister to let the item stand until to-morrow.


Charles Avery Dunning: 


Milton Neil Campbell: very minor change.
It is pretty difficult.
It looks to me like a
anf. RUNNING: Many of these things tha appear of minor significance have far-reachin effects, and it takes time to investigate. 1 is hardly fair for a person to write a lette on May 23 and expect consideration to b given immediately to a matter Which require detailed inquiry. For instance, can my hor friend tell me what duty is carried by clothe mangles and ironing machines?


Milton Neil Campbell: I have not the least idea. I would like however to be fair to the company, and I think the minister should let the matter stand until his officers have had a chance to investigate.


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not like to refuse to let an item stand, although I have quite a few standing at the present time.


Milton Neil Campbell: I am only asking the minister to have his officers consider the matter. I think in fairness to the people concerned he should let it stand until to-morrow.


Charles Avery Dunning: I think I can answer the question now. As far as I can learn, under the existing tariff the machinery in question carries a rate of 30 per cent in one case and 27i per cent in the other. That being the case I am sure he would not want this concession to apply to such manufactures.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: What were the imports under this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: It is a new item entirely. Formerly it was entered under three or four component material items. The entries cannot be separately traced.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to. '
Customs tariff-458. Materials, including all parts, when imported by manufacturers of traction engines for use exclusively in the manufacture of traction engines, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Thomas Edward Simpson: This item formerly was under a 99 per cent drawback. Will the minister tell us what the imports were under this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: This is a new item to provide duty free materials and parts for the manufacture of traction engines. I gave the ratings on tractors some time ago. As hon. gentlemen have noticed, tractors under item 409m are free and tractors under 409n are free under the British preferential tariff, 10 per cent under the intermediate tariff and 15 per cent under the general tariff. Under item 428 they are free under the British preferential tariff, 10 per cent under the intermediate tariff, and 15 per cent under the general tariff. These are very low rates of duty. Some interest was displayed in the possibility that if materials and parts for tractor engines were made free an industry would be started in Canada. In view of that fact a 99 per cent drawback provision is at present in effect. On a large part of the material it was deemed wise to include parts which are not made in Canada in order to stimulate the commencement of an industry.


Thomas Edward Simpson: Have you the value of t'he imports?


Charles Avery Dunning: There were none; that is the point.


John Franklin White: It would appear that the minister i3 interested in the establishment of an assembly plant rather than the establishment of a manufacturing concern.


Charles Avery Dunning: In many cases industries have been built up by first establishing assembly plants and later developing the processes of manufacture. That procedure has developed in Canada owing to the genius of some men at whom I am now looking.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-459. Materials, including all parts, when imported by manufacturers of street or road rollers for use exclusively in the manufacture of street or road rollers, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 74 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
John Franklin White: Will the minister tell me what difference it makes in the general rate? The old rate was $7 a ton, with a 30 per cent drawback.


Charles Avery Dunning: The Ontario Road builders' Association, in presenting their case before the tariff board, expressed the desire to encourage the construction or road rollers in Canada. In their general application for reductions on construction machinery they asked that the road rollers item remain as it was. It is proposed to assist by giving the makers of road rollers low rate parts in lieu of their former remission under the drawback which was not used.


John Franklin White: It would appear to me that the minister is taking the same action in this item as was taken in regard to implements in the year 1924. The duties on materials are being reduced, and the reduction goes back to the maker of the primary material. I figure that we had a duty of $4.90 considering that 30 per cent drawback on $7 a ton. The general tariff is now 10 per cent, which at the price of SI .85 in Pittsburgh brings it back to a duty of $3.75 a ton, which means that the makers of steel are losing to the extent of $150 per ton in duty. When it comes to the British preferential tariff, the loss is about $3 a ton. It goes back, as it did before in the case of agricultural implements, to the makers of iron and steel. And the minister says he is trying to protect the primary makers of material.
, 1930	2481
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Thomas Edward Simpson: What did the imports under that item amount to?


Charles Avery Dunning: There were none under the old drawback; nobody used it. It was not effective, and I am trying to make it effective.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-460. Materials to be used in Canada for the construction of bridges and tunnels crossing the boundary between the United States and Canada, when similar materials are admitted free under similar circumstances into the United States, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-461. Safes, doors for safes, and vaults; scales, balances, weighing beams and strength testing machines of all kinds, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-462. Philosophical, photographic, mathematical and optical instruments, n.o.p.; speedometers, cyclometers and pedometers, and tape lines of any material, n.o.p.; complete parts of all the foregoing: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-463. Magic lanterns and slides therefor: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 20 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-464. Steel dies, of a class or kind not made in Canada, valued at not less than $1,000 each, for use exclusively in stamping metal sheets or metal plates: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Provided that such dies shall be exported from Canada under customs supervision within three months from the date of import entry.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-465. Signs of any material other than paper, framed or not; letters and numerals of any material other than paper. British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-466. Iron sand or globules of iron shot, and dry putty, for use in polishing glass or granite or for sawing stone: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
[Stage Direction]
Customs tariff-467. Window shade or blind rollers: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-468. Bird, squirrel and rat cages, of wire, and metal parts thereof: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-469. Machine card clothing: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 20 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-470. Patterns of iron, steel, brass or other metal, not being models: British preferential tariff, 20 per cent; intermediate tariff, 27J per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-471. Belt pulleys of all kinds, for power transmission: British preferential tariff, 15 per cent;; intermediate tariff, 25 per cent; general tariff, 274 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-472. Plates engraved on wood, steel or other metal and transfers taken from the same, n.o.p.; engravers' plates of steel, or other metal, polished or otherwise processed, for engravmg thereon:	British preferential
tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-473. Plates for printing in two or more colours, including electrotypes, niekeitypes and all engravings on steel or other metal, for use exclusively in printing: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff 15 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-474. Stereotypes, electrotypes and celluloids, for almanacs, calendars, illustrated pamphlets, newspaper or other advertisements, n.o.p.: and matrices or copper shells for such stereotypes, electrotypes and celluloids, per square inch: British preferential tariff, 1 cent; intermediate tariff, 1J cents; general tariff, 11 cents.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-475. Stereotypes, electrotypes and celluloids of books, and bases and matrices 3 i ,9°PPer. shells for the same, whether composed wholly or in part of metal or celluloid: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Felix Patrick Quinn: That is the item I asked the minister about at the beginning of the consideration of these items. The minister has a letter from a Toronto firm asking him to 
add to item 475 aluminum and zinc music plates, and electrotypes for music. At the present time no music plates are manufactured in Canada, and this is intended to encourage the printing of music.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend will
notice that the present item is exactly the same as under the old tariff; that is the reason it was not amended. The matter of printed material and eveiything connected with it is still before the tariff board. The hearings are incomplete, and printed music is included in the items to be investigated.


Felix Patrick Quinn: I am not referring to printed music.


Charles Avery Dunning: No, but when the board deals with printed music it has to deal with everything that enters into the production of it. The whole matter is still before the board, and I prefer not to take action in connection with any particular part of it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-475a. Stereotypes, electrotypes, celluloids and bases for the same, composed wholly or in part of metal or celluloid, n.o.p., and copper shells for such stereotypes, electrotypes and celluloids, per square inch: British preferential tariff, $ cent; intermediate tariff, J cent; general tariff, J cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-475b. Matrices for stereotypes, electrotypes and celluloids described in item 475a, per square inch: British preferential tariff, 4 cent; intermediate tariff, \ cent; general tariff, i cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-476. Surgical and dental instruments of any material; surgical needles; X-ray apparatus; surgical operating tables for use in hospitals; microscopes valued at not less than $50 each by retail; and complete parts of all the foregoing: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-476a. Glassware and other scientific apparatus for laboratory work in public hospitals; apparatus for sterilizing purposes, including bedpan washers and sterilizers but not including washing or laundry machines; all when imported in good faith for the use and by the order of any public hospital: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Charles Avery Dunning: A number of the medical men in the house who are interested in hospitals have pointed out to me that as this item is worded at present it would have the effect of compelling a hospital in every case to be the importer as a hospital, and I am advised

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
that this would cause very great inconvenience.
I am informed that many hospitals desire to secure these various supplies from stocks which they wish to have carried by some merchant or dealer in the city in which the hospital is located. Under the wording of the item as it is in the printed list it would be impossible for that to be done and at the same time permit the hospitals to get the benefit of the concession here given. I desire to suggest a change, and if hon. members will follow the item they will see that the change is very slight; it has the effect of correcting that disability of which the hospital association and the medical fraternity complain. The item would read as follows:
Glassware and other scientific apparatus for laboratory work in public hospitals; apparatus for sterilizing purposes, including bedpan washers and sterilizers but not including washing or laundry machines; all for the use of any public hospital, under regulations prescribed by the minister.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Item as amended agreed to.
Customs tariff-476b. Surgical suction apparatus including motive power; surgical catgut, chloroform, ethyl chloride, canopy or pedestal operating room lights designed to minimize shadow, not including bulbs; all the foregoing of a class or kind not made in Canada, and complete parts thereof, when imported in good faith for the use and by the order of any hospital: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Charles Avery Dunning: The same change requires to be made in this item, which will read as follows:
Surgical suction apparatus including motive power; surgical catgut; chloroform; ethyl chloride; canopy or pedestal operating room lights designed to minimize shadow, not including bulbs; all the foregoing of a class or kind not made in Canada, or complete parts thereof, for the use of any public hospital, under regulations prescribed by the minister.
Of course the point will be apparent to the committee.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Item as amended agreed to.
Customs tariff-477.	Metallic tubes, glass
caps, shells, containers and capillary tubes, rubber bulbs, boxes and corks, when imported by manufacturers of vaccine points for use exclusively in the manufacture of vaccine points, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-478. Artificial limbs, and complete parts thereof: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Felix Patrick Quinn: There is no change; what is the idea of inserting the item?


Charles Avery Dunning: It is just a matter of numbering.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-479. Materials and articles, when imported by manufacturers of artificial limbs for use exclusively in the manufacture of artificial limbs, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-480. Crutches or specially constructed staffs for cripples: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-481.	Specially constructed
boot or appliance made to order for a person having a crippled or deformed foot or ankle: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-482. Ear telephone sets and similar appliances, including complete parts and batteries therefor, for use by deaf persons, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Charles Avery Dunning: This is a new item, to provide for apparatus for the deaf.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-494. Manufactures of corkwood or cork bark, n.o.p., including strips, shives, shells and washers of cork: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 174 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-494a.	Cork slabs, boards,
planks and tiles produced from cork waste or granulated or ground cork: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 174 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-498. Cane, reed or rattan, not further manufactured than split, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 10 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-502b.	Bicycle rim strips
of maple not further manufactured than bent to shape and jointed:	British preferential
tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 124 per cent; general tariff, 15 per cent.
Item agreed to.
2484	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Charles Avery Dunning: There should be an item 502c, which appears to have been dropped. It reads as follows:
Customs tariff-502c.	Wood handles or
stems for handles, not further manufactured than turned, when imported by manufacturers of goods enumerated in tariff items 409a. 409e, 409e, 409f, 409g, 409i. 4O0j. 409o. 431 and 431a for use exclusively in the manufacture of goods enumerated in said items: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
The only purpose of this item is to have the new numbers replace the numbers appearing now in the tariff.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-502d. Gun stocks and foreends for shot guns, of walnut in the rough, not further manufactured than bored and channelled, when imported by manufacturers of shot guns for use only in the manufacture of shot guns in their own factories: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 12J per cent; general tariff, 15 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-506a. Clothes pins, with springs, per gross: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 9 cents; general tariff, 10 cents.
Harry Bernard Short: Would the minister give us the imports under this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: They are untraceable,
because they came in under the general item, n.o.p.


Harry Bernard Short: Have you any exports of these?


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not think they are traceable. Our production amounted to S132,000.


Harry Bernard Short: This does not affect the
ordinary clothes pin; this is a particular type?


Charles Avery Dunning: It is the clothes pin
with the metal spring.


Harry Bernard Short: Are they not manufactured in this country?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Harry Bernard Short: There is a considerable reduction in the intermediate and general tariff; why is that?


Charles Avery Dunning: No, it is a specific duty. My hon. friend misunderstands it; this is the specific duty per gross in future.


Harry Bernard Short: What is the difference?


Mr. ESLING:: I should like to ask the
minister what is the difference between the 10 cents per gross and the 25 per cent ad valorem?


Charles Avery Dunning: They are worth in the
neighbourhood of 30 to 35 cents a gross.


William Kemble Esling: In my district we have a
company which was incorporated and which put in the necessary machinery some time ago for the manufacture of this article. These pins have been dumped into the country from Sweden, and the business of that concern has been very seriously injured. I brought this matter up in the house two years ago, and these pins have been coming into the country in such quantities that the plant practically had to cease operations. Now we are making it even worse, it seems to me.


Charles Avery Dunning: No, the reverse is the
case.


William Kemble Esling: I asked the minister what
was the difference?


Charles Avery Dunning: The effect is an increase. The people concerned came before the board and represented just the condition to which my hon. friend has referred and asked for a duty per gross. They said plainly that the general wood, mop., item bore no relation at all to their product, which contains a steel spring and two wooden parts. As the result of the hearing I thought their representations were well founded and their request was granted.


William Kemble Esling: May I ask if there were
any importations from Great Britain?


Charles Avery Dunning: As I explained, we cannot trace the importations because previously there was no item in the tariff covering this article; it came in under miscellaneous products of wood, and one cannot trace the imports.


Thomas Cantley: May I ask the minister
why he is dealing with this article in this way? We have been exporting a comparatively large quantity of these pins to the old country, but now he has changed the whole schedule, as I understand it, and made them free from Great Britain. Are there any importations of these pins from Great Britain?


Charles Avery Dunning: There is no means of discovering that. The change is made at the request of the manufacturers of clothes pins.


Harry Bernard Short: It is an increase instead of a decrease.


Thomas Cantley: It does not sound reasonable for a manufacturer to ask you to give free entry to a competitor.


Charles Avery Dunning: It may not sound reasonable, but there are some reasonable people in the world.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Thomas Cantley: I am talking about what is
unreasonable.


Miss MACPHAIL:: Even among mamv faeturers.


William Kemble Esling: Does the minister think an increase of 2 cents per gross is sufficient to protect the local industry?


Charles Avery Dunning: The manufacturers are satisfied. Would my hon. friend like me to drop the item?


William Kemble Esling: No, I would like to see the minister increase the duty.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-513. Umbrella, parasol and sunshade sticks or handles, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 17J per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-516. Blinds of wood, metal or other material, not textile or paper: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 27J per cent; general tariff, 30 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-535a.	Grasses, seawood,
mosses and vegetable fibres other than cotton, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 17J per cent; general tariff, 174 per cent.
Felix Patrick Quinn: Should not "seawood" read "seaweed"?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes. This item bears a relationship to item 200, which was allowed to stand a few days ago and to which I think we will have to refer in order to discuss intelligently the matter involved. This item covers grasses, seaweed, mosses and vegetable fibres other than cotton, while item 200 covers pulp of wood, of straw or of any other vegetable fibre. The two items interlock and relate themselves to a wide variety of commodities in which a number of members have displayed interest and which have been discussed before the tariff board. The question revolves around a commodity known as bagasse of sugar cane, which is apparently a waste byproduct of the cane and is somewhat competitive with the waste product of our lumbering and pulp industry. Considerable experimental and development work has been done in this connection during the past few years, and representations have been made by the lumbering industry and several of the provincial governments relative to this matter After reviewing the whole question, I am inclined to think that this is the item under which it might be provided for, and I propose to add to this item "bagasse of sugar
cane, whether or not dried, cleaned, out to size, ground or sifted", and leave the rates as they are. That would allow bagasse of sugar cane to come in free under the British preference, covering in this case the West Indies, and the rates would be 174 per cent under both the intermediate and the general tariffs.


John Franklin White: Does the minister intend to allow this wastage of the sugar cane to come in free from the West Indies to compete with the wastage from our own pulp mills?


Charles Avery Dunning: Apparently there is no objection to its being permitted to come in free from the West Indies.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Item as amended agreed to.	' -[DOT]*
Charles Avery Dunning: I would move that we revert to item 200.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Customs tariff-200. Pulp of wood, of straw or of any other vegetable fibre: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 22i per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-535e. Vegetable fibres other than cotton, when imported by manufacturers of brushes for use exclusively in the manufacture of brushes, in their own factories: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 7J per cent.
James Dew Chaplin: Will the minister explain this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: This is a new item to provide low rates on fibres other than cotton for the manufacture of brushes. Prior to 1928 the manufacturers of brushes obtained their raw material under the old item 539. Apparently these fibres are collected from the trees by natives and owing to a great variety in the shading they are all dipped in a form of dye or stain to give them a uniform colouring. The present item 535 reads in part: "vegetable fibres other than cotton, not coloured." The manufacturers of brushes were not able to take advantage of free entry for their raw material and had to import under 535a, as vegetable fibres other than cotton, n.o.p. This change is made to rectify a situation which was rather unfair to the manufacturer.


James Dew Chaplin: They were paying a higher duty because of the colouring matter used?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.

TFaj/s and Means-Customs Tariff


James Dew Chaplin: Some of the fibres are coloured in their natural state?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


James Dew Chaplin: And the natives colour other fibres in order to make them all look alike?


Charles Avery Dunning: That is it.


James Dew Chaplin: Why is a duty imposed against this commodity at all; is it just for revenue (purposes?


Charles Avery Dunning: It was an n.ojp item, and it would not be well to eliminate that.


James Dew Chaplin: There is no n.o.p. here.


Charles Avery Dunning: The other item is the n.ojp item, and that is the only one which is dutiable.


James Dew Chaplin: This item is dutiable.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is free under the British preference.


James Dew Chaplin: It is intended as a revenue producing tariff.


Charles Avery Dunning: I have in mind the vegetable fibres coming in from different parts of the British Empire.


Mr. BELL (St. John-Albert):: Are there no vegetable fibres produced in Canada? There is a brush factory in my constituency and they inform me that the cost of the fibres represents about 50 per cent of the total cost, the remainder being made up chiefly of labour and wood. They have asked me if it would not be possible to have the intermediate and general tariffs free.


Charles Avery Dunning: I am quite sure that
these articles can be procured within the British Empire, and we are trying to do as much business as we can with the various parts of the empire. We are selling them our own commodities, and a tropical product of this kind might very well be secured from the same countries to whom we are trying to sell.


Thomas Bell: I understand that this fibre is obtained chiefly from Brazil, West Africa, India and also Mexico. The duty on imported brushes from England is 15f per cent. Is that right?


Charles Avery Dunning: The three rates applying on the finished product are 17^ per cent, 25 per cent and 27i per cent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.	.
£X4r. Dunning.]
Customs tariff-553a. Stereotypers' and type-casters' blankets or blanketing and press blankets or blanketing used for printing presses, of a class or kind not made in Canada: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 5 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-577.	Collars and cuffs of
xylonite, xyolite or celluloid: British preferential tariff, free: intermediate tariff, 20 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-584a.	Asphalt, not solid:
British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 17i per cent; general tariff, 17J per cent.
Thomas Cantley: What material is this?


Charles Avery Dunning: This is an item that has been in the tariff for years. The imports last year were $52,000, of which $51,000 worth came from the United States and a very small quantity under the British preference.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: How much under the British preference?


Charles Avery Dunning: A very small amount, not more than $1,000 worth, but my hon. friend will not forget that this is produced in Trinidad.


Edward Joseph Garland: We have
plenty in Alberta.


Charles Avery Dunning: Not of this commodity.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-588a. Gas for heating, cooking or illuminating, imported by pipeline, per 1,000 cubic feet: general tariff, 6 cents.
Charles Avery Dunning: This removes a complete absurdity from the tariff.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-605.	Skins for morocco
leather, tanned but not further manufactured; tanners'" scrap leather; leather not further finished than tanned, and skins, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff. 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 12J per cent; general tariff, 15 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-605a. Belting leather, further finished than tanned: British preferential tariff, 10 per cent; intermediate tariff, 20 per cent; general tariff, 22J per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-618b. Tires of rubber for vehicles of all kinds, fitted or not: British preferential tariff, 22J per cent; intermediate tariff, 30 per cent; general tariff, 35 per cent.
Item agreed to.

Customs tariff-636. Featherbone, plain or covered, in coils: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 17J per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-649. Shoe buttons, n.o.p.: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 224 per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-650a.	Button blanks of
animal shell, in the rough: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 10 per cent; general tariff, 10 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-657b. Special parts, in the rough, when imported by manufacturers of cameras, for use only in the manufacture of cameras: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 74 per cent; general tariff, 7J per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-663c. Soya beans, soya bean cake and soya bean meal when imported by manufacturers of cattle foods and fertilizers for use exclusively in the manufacture of cattle foods and fertilizers, in their own factories: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Herbert Bealey Adshead: Why should this be free exclusively for manufacturers of soya food? Why should the farmer not be permitted to make the food himself, if he so chooses? It is free to the manufacturers and they can charge the farmer whatever they like, because he cannot import it himself.


Charles Avery Dunning: Perhaps some of the
farmer members will advise me whether the farmer could possibly use soya bean cake or meal alone as a feed. My impression is that it is an article which enters into the composition of feeds, but it is usable in a practicable way only as a feed.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Why exclude the farmer? The minister is excluding the farmer from doing this.


Charles Avery Dunning: If he is a manufacturer
of cattle food, even for himself, I do not see any reason why he cannot take advantage of this provision.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: What is the duty on the finished article?


Charles Avery Dunning: I shall have it looked up. Practically all of the stock foods are free now.


Milton Neil Campbell: Where do these soya
beans come from?


Charles Avery Dunning: From China.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ways and Means-Customs Tanfj
Customs tariff-665. Torpedoes, fire-crackers and fireworks of all kinds: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 224 Per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Mr. ROSS (Kingston):: What is the idea
of making these free? Where do they come from?


Charles Avery Dunning: They can come from the old country.


Arthur Edward Ross: I think outside of the United States they come mostly from China.


Charles Avery Dunning: Out of $99,000 worth,
$63,000 worth came from the United States.


Arthur Edward Ross: But the minister
is making the item free and these articles will all come from China via Hongkong.


Charles Avery Dunning: I am making it free only under the British preference.


Thomas Cantley: That will apply to Hongkong.


Charles Avery Dunning: They will not come from Hongkong, because Hongkong does not enjoy the British preference.


Arthur Edward Ross: Then the preference is of no use in that item, because this stuff nearly all comes from China and Japan and it will continue to come.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-665a. Fuse, not metallic: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 174 per cent; general tariff, 20 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff'-670. Grinding wheels, stones or blocks, manufactured by the bonding together of either natural or artificial abrasives; manufactures of emery or of artificial abrasives, n.o.p.:	British preferential
tariff, 15 per cent; intermediate tariff, 224 Per cent; general tariff, 25 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-672a. Sticks or canes cut into suitable lengths for umbrella, parasol or sunshade or walking sticks, further manufactured than in tariff item 455, but not further finished than bent, when imported by manufacturers of umbrellas, parasols, sunshades or walking sticks, for use exclusively in the manufacture of such articles in their own factories: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, 124 per cent; general tariff, 15 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-688.	Artificial teeth, not
mounted: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
2488	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Customs tariff-698a. Metal sheets for use only in making Braille printing plates, typewriters with Braille characters on the keys and writing appliances for use only by the blind: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-706.	Articles for the personal or official use of representatives of foreign countries and of His Majesty governments, and for the personal use of their families, suites or servants, under regulations prescribed by the governor in council: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, free.
Provided that the governor in council may withdraw any of the privileges granted under this section in the case of any country which refuses to grant the same privileges to Canadian officials holding corresponding or equivalent posts in that country, and may also rescind any order in council withdrawing the privileges as aforesaid.
Item agreed to.
4. Resolved, that section B to the customs tariff, being chapter forty-four of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1927, as amended by chapter seventeen of the Acts of 1928, and by order in council, be amended by striking thereout tariff items 1005, 1006, 1009, 1015, 1018, 1021, 1023, 1026, 1027. 1028, 1036, 1039, 1045, 1047, 1048, 1056, 1057, 1058, 1059, 1062, 1063, 1064 the enumerations of goods and the rates of drawback of customs duties set opposite to each of the said items, and by repealing order in council, P.C. 2851, dated the thirteenth day of August, 1921, and by inserting the following items, enumerations and rates of drawback of customs duties in said schedule B:-
Customs tariff-1005.	Steel, when used in
the manufacture of cutlery or stove trimmings -payable as drawback, 99 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-1006. Steel, when used in the manuafcture of scythes, reaping hooks, hay or straw knives, hoes, agricultural forks, hand rakes, axes or windmills-payable as drawback, 99 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-1009. Steel, when used in the manufacture of files, augers, auger bits, bit braces, wrenches, hammers or hatchets-payable as drawback, 60 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-1015. Steel, when used in the manufacture of skates or bicycle chain-payable as drawback, 40 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff -1018. Seamless iron or steel tubing over four inches in diameter, when used in the transmission of natural gas under high pressure from the gas wells to points of distribution-payable as drawback, 50 per cent.
Thomas Cantley: All of the materials
enumerated in the items from 1005 to 1015 inclusive have .been made in Canada for [Mr. A. E. Ross 1
thirty years and it is unfair that they should be admitted duty free while the manufacturers who use them as their raw material have a very fair rate of protection. There is not much use in attempting to protect the steel tradfe when at the same time it is practically wide open to manufacturers of almost every class of material that can be thought of.


Mr. BLACK (Halifax):: Would the minister be good enough to explain why on items 1005 and 1006 there is a drawback of 99 per cent, whereas on item 1015 there is a drawback of only 40 per cent? Skates are manufactured pretty extensively, as the minister knows.


James Dew Chaplin: I might point out to the minister also that in item 1006 there is a drawback of 90 per cent. That should be 100 per cent because the articles that are being made have no duty on them at all.


Thomas Cantley: That is quite true, but
at the same time we in Nova Scotia thirty years ago supplied my hon. friend with material for making scythes and we would do so again if we had a decent tariff which gave fair protection to everybody concerned.


Charles Avery Dunning: With regard to the drawback items, the whole matter was carefully studied by the tariff board in relation to each item and in relation to the industry, as well as the rates obtaining with respect to the various products, and it was considered that 40 per cent in this case, having regard to the rates of duty on the finished product, was a sufficient drawback. My hon. friend from Pictou would say that that was too much.


Thomas Cantley: Of course it is.


Charles Avery Dunning: Those who are interested in the secondary manufacture would say that it is not enough. It is a matter of judgment.


James Dew Chaplin: I object to that. I do
not think the minister should say that at all. The manufacturers engaged in the manufacture of secondary products would very properly say that you should protect the primary industry, and then on top of that protect the secondary industry, and then both will live. But with what you are doing now, neither will live.


Charles Avery Dunning: Are they all going to
die?


James Dew Chaplin: The policy you are adopting is gradually killing and will gradually kill them; there is no doubt about that.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend really
believes that?


James Dew Chaplin: I absolutely do.


Charles Avery Dunning: He believes that the
whole steel industry in this country, primary and secondary, is going to be killed ?


James Dew Chaplin: The way you are handling it, it could not be otherwise, because the people who have been handling this tariff are not even good business men. That is true. The man that is at the head of it has never made a success of any business he has ever been in, except the one of promoting and lobbying. That is the truth.


John Evans: There is no fear of the
steel industry in this country dying. They still have the price fixing power, and still export their goods at the expense of the consumer. I do not see why they have a drawback of 99 per cent or 60 or 40 per cent. Why should the finished articles carry a duty of 20 per cent, which has to be paid by the farmer who has no price fixing power, and who has to find a market for his products against all the cheap labour of the world? Is it right that we should protect one class over and over again at the expense of the other? Is it right that discriminatory legislation should be put through this house for the purpose of allowing one class to ride on the back of the other year after year? I hope the time will soon come when I shall see my own class emancipated from these conditions.


Thomas Cantley: I want to give the house
a little information. Many years ago we made in New Glasgow hundreds of tons of skate steel, which was worked into skates in Halifax. Nobody was hurt. The Halifax people were competing with the whole world in skates, particularly with Germany. That business has been wiped out by the drawback.
Then take item 1009. A large quantity of steel was produced for the articles in this item. Take the question of agricultural implement steel, to which I have already referred in this house. There was a time when we in New Glasgow supplied 40 per cent of all the steel used in the manufacture of agricultural implements in Ontario. But a quarter of a million dollars' worth of plant has been scrapped and large numbers of men have been thrown out of employment. Who has benefited by that change? Agricultural implements are not any cheaper to-day than when the steel was made in Nova Scotia. It could be made there to-day and in Ontario, and that it is not made there to-day is due to
!, 1930	.
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
very faulty tariff construction. A scientific tariff would begin with the basic forms of iron and steel and go on up progressively in accordance with the amount of labour involved in each manufacture. This tariff has departed entirely from that principle; it has resulted in a large wastage of capital invested in plant, and has thrown a very large number of men out of employment. Is that a desirable condition of affairs to perpetuate in this country? I leave it to the minister.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-1021. Rolled round wire rods in the coil, of iron or steel, not over .375 inch in diameter, when used in the manufacture of galvanized iron or steel wire, curved or not, .144,	.104, or .002 inch in diameter with
tolerance not to exceed .004 inch payable as drawback, 99 per cent.
Charles Avery Dunning: I have an amendment to make to that item, Mr. Chairman, in order to make it agree in intent and wording with the items in the tariff which it covers. It is the intention that the drawback should apply only to rods used in the manufacture of wire covered by item 401d. I move to insert after the words ".004 inch" the words "but not when such wire is for use in telegraph or telephone lines." There is no change at all.
Amendment, agreed to.
Item as amended agreed to.
Customs tariff-1023. Hot rolled hexagon iron or steel bars, when used in the manufacture of cold drawn or cold rolled iron or steel bars-payable as drawback, 60 per cent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-1026. Materials, when used in the manufacture of containers for articles entitled to entry under tariff item 219a-payable as drawback, 99 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-1027. Materials, when used by manufacturers of malleable iron castings or steel shafting for use exclusively in the manufacture of goods enumerated in tariff items 409a, 409b, 409c, 409d, 409e, 409f, 409g, 409j, 409o, and 439c-payable as drawback, 80 per cent.
Thomas Edward Simpson: Has the minister the total value of the imports last year to which this drawback applies?


Charles Avery Dunning: The amount paid in the fiscal year 1929 was $10,800. I have a slight correction to make in this item, Mr. Chairman. In the fourth line, after the word "of", I move to insert the words "Such articles for use in the manufacture of."


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Item as amended agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Charles Avery Dunning: I have a new item to insert, Mr. Chairman. It will be item 1028, and will read as follows:
_ Customs tariff-1028. Steel billets, when used in the manufacture of the seamless pipes, tubes and flues enumerated in tariff items 399 and 410d.
Provided that no drawback shall he paid under this item when the pipes, tubes and flues enumerated in tariff items 399 and 410d are dutiable under the general tariff of schedule A to this act-payable as drawback, 99 per cent.
We failed to include free billets for free commodities, and this item is inserted to correct that slip.


Thomas Edward Simpson: This is simply providing another drawback on the primary industry. Why not make provision for a duty on the seamless pipe when manufactured in this country, a provision similar to the one you have for skelp steel?


James Dew Chaplin: These drawbacks just take so much more business away from the primary industry, that the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Cantley) has been speaking about.


Charles Avery Dunning: Item 399 is:
Pipes, tubes and flues, of wrought iron or steel, not further manufactured than in straight lengths-
Last night we had a discussion on bent tubes. My hon. friend from London (Mr. White) wanted the bent ones free, and I yielded to his request. Now the manufacturers are in the position of having to pay duty on the materials which enter into these things which other manufacturers desire to have free. I am trying to correct that condition so far as it relates to these flues and well casings. That is, they are free items under the tariff, and the manufacturers of them certainly ought not to pay tariff on the ingots used in their production.


Thomas Cantley: The minister is mixing up two separate items.


Thomas Edward Simpson: Will it be confined to those?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, and1 only so long as the items are free.


John Franklin White: I have no abjection, but as I pointed out this afternoon, while hot rolled iron and steel comes in free, the billet duty is raised $2 a ton.


Charles Avery Dunning: I will check that up.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: This drawback refers to
steel sheets in connection with the manufacture of automobiles. This item merely covers steel sheets used in the manufacture of the gasoline tanks of automobiles. Hitherto the

99 per cent drawback covered all the stampings in connection with the manufacture of automobiles. If there is any desire on the part of the government to get cheaper automobiles it is no use to add additional charges to their manufacture. After the words "steel sheets " in the order in council passed in 1921 the words " cold rolled sheets " were added and it is out of these hot and cold rolled sheets that-


Charles Avery Dunning: If my hon. friend would only let me explain. The words to which he referred were dropped in typing. It is purely a typographical error and the people disturbed have all been so informed.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: Has the government informed them?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes. I have the correction here.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: Why should these items
come up here after being passed on by the tariff board and by the customs officers and still contain such blunders as, if passed, would put manufacturers out of business?


Charles Avery Dunning: Mr. Chairman, I can
only say that these words were dropped in typing and were not caught in time to be corrected otherwise than by moving a resolution, which I do now. Those interested were immediately advised as soon as the mistake was discovered, and they are not a bit disturbed about it now, I can assure my hon. friend.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: Are we to expect these
items to come from the tariff board loaded with blunders?


Charles Avery Dunning: The tariff board made no blunder; a typist did.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Thomas Erlin Kaiser: What words are added?


Charles Avery Dunning: "Hot or cold rolled."
Item as amended agreed to.
Customs tariff-1045. Steel sheets, coated with lead or with lead and tin, .064 inch to .022 inch in thickness, 20 to 42 inches in width and 50 to 120 inches in length, when used in the manufacture of stampings for automobiles -payable as drawback, 99 per cent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
. Customs tariff-1047. Materials, when used in the manufacture of articles enumerated in tariff item 410e-payable as drawback, 99 per cent.
Item agreed to.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Customs tariff-1048. Materials, including all parts, when used in the manufacture of goods enumerated in tariff item 440k-payable as drawback, 50 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-1056. Materials, when used in the manufacture of rolled iron or rolled steel entitled to entry under tariff item 442a, when such rolled iron or rolled steel is sold to manufacturers to be used as specified in said item-payable as drawback, 99 per cent.
Thomas Edward Simpson: I should like to know the
amount of drawback on this item, allso on 1057.


Charles Avery Dunning: The drawback amounted
to $2,082.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-1057. Materials, when used in the manufacture of articles entitled to entry under tariff item 442, when such articles are sold to manufacturers to be used as specified in said item-payable as drawback, 80 per cent.
Charles Avery Dunning: The drawback was $10,-
900.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-1058. Materials, when used in the manufacture of articles entitled to entry under tariff items 411 and 411a, not including saws, and articles entitled to entry under tariff item 410 (1), when such articles are used as specified in said items-payable as drawback, 60 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-4059. Materials, when used in the manufacture of articles entitled to entry under tariff items 410b and 410z when such articles are used as specified in said items- payable as drawback, 70 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-1062. Materials, including all parts, when used in the manufacture of marking gauges, levels, planes or hand tool scrapers, spoke shaves, try squares, bevels, measuring tapes of metal, rules, forged wire rope sockets, lathe dogs, tool holders, forged clamps, chain pipe wrenches.
Provided that no drawback shall be paid under this item unless at least fifty per centum of the cost of producing the finished article has been incurred in Canada; and provided further that no drawback under this item shall be payable more than once on any article- payable as drawback, 60 per cent.
Charles Avery Dunning: The words "of metal"
should be deleted in the fifth line.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Item as amended agreed to.
Customs tariff-1063. Materials, including all parts, when imported prior to July 1, 1932, when used in the manufacture of engines for use exclusively in the equipment of aircraft.
Provided that on and after July 1, 1930, no drawback shall be paid under this item unless at least 25 per centum of the cost of producing the finished engine has been incurred in Canada-payable as drawback, 60 per cent.
Item agreed to.
Customs tariff-1064. Materials, including all parts, when imported prior to July 1, 1932, when used in the manufacture of aircraft, not including engines.
Provided that no drawback shall be paid under this item unless at least fifty per centum of the cost of producing the finished article has been incurred in Canada-payable as drawback, 60 per cent.
Item agreed to.
5. Resolved, that any enactment founded on the foregoing resolutions shall be deemed to have come into force on the second day of May, one thousand nine hundred and thirty, and to have applied to all goods mentioned in the foregoing resolutions imported or taken out of warehouse for consumption on and after that date and to have applied to goods previously imported for consumption for which no entry for consumption was made before that day.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Chairman, how does the minister propose to deal with that class of cases in which there has been a variation of the schedules since we went into committee, and which would imply payments at one rate and the tariff applied at another.


Charles Avery Dunning: I have made inquiries as to the practice in the past in all similar cases. Applications for refunds are considered on their individual merits. The practice fallowed has been dependent very largely upon whether the person entitled to consideration for refund himself, or as a corporation, was subject to any loss in the matter. Wherever losses were definitely ascertained as being present and not passed on so that they could not be followed, I find consideration of refunds has been given by the Department of National Revenue and submitted to the treasury board. But cases have occurred in the past in which it was quite impossible to trace the ultimate result of the reduction.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The hon. minister will realize in connection with fruit and vegetables that the large sums of money that were paid for a period of more than two weeks by those importing such goods from the United States would naturally not involve the consumers in any refunds that might be made.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.

VFa?/s and Means-Customs Tariff


Richard Bedford Bennett: I was asked to have the minister if possible make some statement as to what the policy of the government would be, because I propose as we proceed, in view of certain statements that have been made both in the press and by members of this house, to question further as to the reasons that were in the minister's mind when he introduced the measure as he did and amended it as it now stands. It was in order to be fair with him in that regard that I now put to him the question as to whether or not any refund will be made in matters of that kind.


Charles Avery Dunning: In so far as the fruit and vegetable changes are concerned the matter has not been considered as one of government policy. My hon. friend will readily appreciate that I am not in a position to indicate the view of the government. Applications for refunds are always given consideration; that is, any one who thinks himself aggrieved under the provisions of the law may apply for refund. Consideration to grievances will have to be given as they arise.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is one other item to which I wish to direct the attention of the minister. I refer to the item in respect to the importation of soft flour. Soft flour is made from soft wheat, and is used for the production of biscuits. Some years ago a biscuit factory was established in the city of Edmonton; it has since been sold. Recently there was established in Calgary a small biscuit factory which now employs about 125 people. As hon. members know, soda biscuits, so-called, are largely if not entirely made from flour manufactured from soft wheat. In the early days of my experience in western Canada soft wheat was grown in British Columbia and milled at a small mill near Enderby. In recent years that supply has been discontinued, and so far as western Canada or British Columbia are concerned no supply is available for the production of biscuits. The factory at Calgary, as well as the factory at Edmonton, have been depending upon the supply of flour imported from the United States, produced, as I have said, from soft wheat, not from hard wheat. In the province of Ontario the large biscuit factories have ample supplies of flour milled from soft wheat, and the supplies of this commodity going into Alberta come either from Ontario or from the western United States. The demand in Ontario for flour milled from soft wheat is practically met by the home grown article. Importations into Canada from the United States during the last few years have aver-
aged 65,000 barrels per annum, and a duty of 50 cents per barrel has been charged. As it now reads the countervailing duty on soft wheat per barrel will be $2.03.


Charles Avery Dunning: Two dollars?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, on flour milled from soft wheat.


Charles Avery Dunning: Is my hon. friend sure of his figure?


Richard Bedford Bennett: If my hon. friend will look at the present American tariff, which does not differentiate between flours milled from hard and soft wheats, he will find my statement to be true. The effect of this will be to impose upon that small industry in Calgary a tax of $2.03 per barrel of flour. Soft wheat flour is practically the only flour which can be utilized for their purposes. I will not repeat what I said the other day as to the difficulties experienced in establishing industries in these western communities. I could cite the case of the Regal biscuit factory which lost something like $300,000 when it went out of business in western Canada. It was established in the city of Calgary. Through local capital efforts are now being made to reestablish the industry. The investment involved in the city of Calgary amounts to about $300,000, and there are approximately 125 employees on the payroll.
Notwithstanding the protection that has been afforded to Canadian industry the importation of unsweetened biscuits from the United States during the fiscal year 1924-25 amounted to 612,000 pounds; in 1925-26, 706,000 pounds; in 1926-27, 733,000 pounds; in 1927-28, 864,000 pounds, and in 1928-29, 881,000 pounds. The importations of the sweetened product from the United States increased from 347,000 pounds in 1924 to 1,105,459 pounds in 1928-29. In the intervening years the importation had reached as high as 1,280,000 pounds, and the low figure was 998.000 pounds. Under the proposed countervailing duty against all classes of flour there will be a duty of $2.03 per barrel instead of 50 cents per barrel.


Charles Avery Dunning: $2.03?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes. I am basing my
figure on 196 pounds to the barrel. I submit to the minister that the purpose he has in mind would be amply fulfilled by sub-dividing the item so as to provide for countervailing duties on hard wheat flour, and an additional clause in connection with soft wheat flour. I would suggest the addition to item 61a as follows:

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
Wheat flour, of soft wheat, when imported by manufacturers of biscuits for use only in their own factories in the manufacture of biscuits, per barrel: British preferential tariff, free:	intermediate tariff, 50 cents; general
tariff, 50 cents.
Such an addition would have the effect of enabling this industry to continue, while at the same time it would not in any sense interfere with the operation of the countervailing duties in connection with the class of wheat flour covered by the tariff item.


Charles Avery Dunning: Has my hon. friend
investigated the freight rate situation from the point of origin of the soft wheat flour?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I should have said to my hon. friend that so far as freight rates are concerned there is no milling in transit rate on soft wheat flour from eastern Canada to Calgary, therefore the milling in transit rate that applies to eastbound traffic has no application. Whereas the wheat at one time was ground in small quantities in the mill at Enderby which has since been abandoned, as some of the hon. gentlemen will no doubt recall, and there being no soft wheat grown in the prairie provinces suitable for the production of biscuits, we have to have recourse to the supply in the States directly south of Alberta. I refer to the state of Washington-


Charles Avery Dunning: Farther south than that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No.


Charles Avery Dunning: Washington?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, and probably a little farther south on some occasions. Special varieties of soft wheat flour may be obtained farther south than Washington and Oregon, but in the main those states produce the flour which is used in the Calgary plant for biscuit making. So far as I can see there would be no Canadian industry or activity affected by my proposed item. If there were it is needless to say I should be very glad to have such industries protected.


Charles Avery Dunning: The milling of soft wheat flour is an important Canadian industry.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But only where there is
a constant and ever increasing demand nearby, because the freight rate makes it impossible to move the wheat west. I tell the minister frankly that so far as my investigation has gone I have stated the facts correctly. A representative of a western plant came down here to interview the minister, but I do not know whether the hon. gentleman has had an opportunity to confer with him.


Charles Avery Dunning: My office was in touch
with him.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Of course he feels that the increase in duty from 50 cents to $2.03, on a product which is not produced in his part of Canada and which under existing freight rates cannot be made available for the development of that industry, there being no milling in transit rate on westbound products, is an impossible situation.


Charles Avery Dunning: I mentioned the freight rate aspect of it having in mind the present source of supply and the rate on the product to Calgary and Edmonton and I believe also to Regina, where I think there is a branch of the same institution, although I am not sure. As nearly as I could work it out without accurately and definitely getting the rates, it should be possible to ship that flour from the east to the west at a comparable rate to that which prevails from the point of origin in the United States. However, I do not expect to deal completely with the resolution to-night and perhaps I might make a note to look into this matter further; the item as such is passed, but the resolution itself will not be passed until all the component parts have been dealt with. I will look further into the matter. My hon. friend's suggestion is a qualification. Of course so far as Ontario is concerned he will appreciate the fact that the item as it stands is very acceptable.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes. If it affected in that province any trade with the community to which I have referred, then of course there would be clear justification for protection of the indutsry-that is the industry of agriculture-by the application of the tariff item. But from 50 cents to $2.03 a barrel is an increase of something like 300 per cent on that item alone, and if it were pure protection the rate would not be necessary. It is more than that; it is an incidence to the application of a countervailing duty on wheat flour, which should be divided into two classes, namely that produced from soft wheat and that produced from hard wheat.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend sees the difficulty, of course, but I will give it further consideration.


Richard Bedford Bennett: To save time I have purposely discussed the matter now, having mentioned it to the minister, rather than when the measure based upon these items was submitted.


John Frederick Johnston: Shall I report the resolution?
2494	COMMONS
Ways and Means-Customs Tariff


Charles Avery Dunning: We might revert to items 377, 377a, 377b and 377c, which were allowed to stand.
Customs tariff-377.	Ingots, of iron or
steel, n.o.p., per ton: British preferential tariff, $1.50; intermediate tariff, $2.50; general tariff, $3.
Customs tariff

377a. Blooms, cogged ingots, slabs, billets, n.o.p., sheet bars, of iron or steel, by whatever process made, n.o.p., per ton: British preferential tariff, $2.50; intermediate tariff, $4; general tariff, $4.50.
Customs tariff-377b. Ingots, cogged ingots, blooms, slabs, billets, n.o.p., of iron or steel, valued at not less than 3 cents per pound, when imported by manufacturers of steel for use exclusively in the manufacture of steel, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, free; general tariff, 5 per cent.
Customs tariff-377c. Ingots, cogged ingots, blooms, slabs, billets, n.o.p., of iron or steel, of a class or kind not made in Canada, when imported by manufacturers of forgings for use exclusively in the manufacture of forgings, in their own factories, under regulations prescribed by the minister, per ton: British preferential tariff, free; intermediate tariff, $2.25; general tariff, $2.50.


Charles Avery Dunning: These are the items in
connection with which the leader of the opposition made a suggestion. I have looked into it and I find that it would be quite impracticable in operation, as far as I can gather from trying to follow what would be the result. It would produce in practice a chaotic condition in relation to three or four items of the customs tariff, and particularly as applied to a number of industries in different parts of Canada, some of which might be complying with the conditions while others were not, whereas the tariff itself is applicable across the whole of Canada and to all imports of that class or kind. It would be quite impossible of application.


Mr. HEAPS:: Might I suggest that these
items be held over until to-morrow morning? Quite a number of members would like to discuss them.


Charles Avery Dunning: They have been standing now for two or three days following a very elaborate discussion, and there is half an hour yet remaining to-night. Of course my hon. friend is aware that there will be a further opportunity in the committee stage of the bill to discuss these items if that is thought desirable. There is a good deal of revision to be done on the bill which will be introduced, and there will be no barring of an opportunity to discuss any item.


Arthur Edward Ross: I should like to
ask the minister if he has reconsidered item 296.
[The Chairman.]


Charles Avery Dunning: We are gathering still
information on feldspar, and that item either will have to be carried as it is or will have to stand for the moment. It is very hard for my officers to get sufficient time to prepare information for me while they are compelled to be in the house.


Mr.   CHAIRMAN@: Shall item 377 carry?


Richard Bedford Bennett: What the minister has
said probably is true, except that perhaps those who might be affected could give some assurance that they will look into the question of improving the conditions under which labour is now employed. I fancy there will be no difficulty about that being said. I did look into the matter, as the minister suggested, and I have some doubt as to the validity of any such amendment, from the standpoint of interfering with the scheme of taxation, in view of what the chairman said the other day. That is the reason, frankly, why it was not embodied in the form of an amendment.


Charles Avery Dunning: Has my hon. friend
looked into the practicability of it?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I have not up to the
moment done more than look into the other aspect of it, the one in which I was more intimately concerned, having regard to what the chairman said the other day.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I do not think this ought to carry. We tried to impress upon the committee the other day the importance of protecting the interests of the workers in the steel industry. I do not think it is necessary at this stage to review what was then said. The fact is that these companies are receiving a very considerable benefit from this country and the least we should do is to insist that their employees be given something like decent conditions under which to work.
It has been stated that the company is not at the moment in a very good position to give this assurance. That statement has been made for a good many years now. For the past six or seven years I have discussed this matter in the house, and always we are told that the companies are not in a position to do it. I have never yet heard of a reform which has not been met with some statement of that kind. It seems to me that the time has come when we have to decide frankly whether dividends or the needs of the employees are to have first consideration. It may be said in this connection that the company is not .paying dividends. At least it is carrying on, and I take it that in a good many departments we already recognize that wages are a first claim. It ought to be

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
recognized here that wages and decent working conditions are a first claim upon the industry. I quoted figures the other day to show that provision was being made for the obsolescence of machinery, for replacement, for reserves, and so on. I have no objection to the company making such provisions, but I do say that provision ought to be made for the people whom it employs, and that the provision for the employees ought to come first.
Under these circumstances I think the Prime Minister ought to accede to our request. He said that if we took the step in this case it would have to be taken in all cases, and he said also that he was willing to do it. I should like to have him make a statement on that particular point. I think he should do so, after what was said on the floor of the house the other day. I quite concede that it might be difficult to apply immediately in industry the whole of the provisions of the treaty of Versailles, and that is why I am in favour of having some of them applied in this one item. I quite concede that all industrial establishments ought to have the eight hour day, but these Steel works are the only big industrial establishments I know of in this country that are working their men twelve hours a day.


An hon. MEMBER:: And fourteen hours per day.


James Shaver Woodsworth: They work twelve hours a day for seven days in t.he week, and in some cases the night men work thirteen hours a shift. During the change over from shift to shift I am told that the men work for twenty-four hours without cessation. So far as I know this is the only large industry in which men have to work under such conditions; hence there is a particular reason for the making of suitable provisions in this case. When protection is being given to this industry, provision should be made for the workers. Why put it off until another year has passed? Is the government going to put this off altogether? Why wait until such time as the companies are prepared to come through?


Thomas Cantley: Mr. Chairman, I desire to make a statement in regard to the remarks made the other night in reference to this matter. On Wednesday night the house heard a good deal of lurid speech as to living and labour conditions in Glace Bay, Cape Breton. Quotations were made from reported investigations by certain well-meaning men of God and others with what perhaps may be termed somewhat advanced views as to
social service and similar matters. Some of the statements quoted and made were probably correct; others were possibly exaggerations.
I have no interest in the Besco corporation and never had beyond a small matter of holding shares to the nominal value of 8100 with a present market value of less than half that amount. As to the condition of their housing properties at Glace Bay, I personally know nothing and therefore offer neither criticism nor defence.
In view of the general denouncement voiced here last Wednesday night, I consider it desirable now to say that conditions such as referred to do not now prevail nor have they at any time during the past forty-five years prevailed as regards the Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Company of New Glasgow, in connection with either their mainland or their Cape Breton enterprises. Neither at New Glasgow nor at Trenton did that company build or own any houses or tenements for the housing of its employees. They did, however, encourage and assist employees to build and own their houses, and many of them do own their houses in both these towns, due to assistance given by the company.
When the Scotia Company acquired in 1900 the property and mines of the General Mining Association of London, and in the following year proceeded to develop further the property by opening additional collieries and erecting coal washeries, coke ovens, blast furnaces and a modern open hearth steel plant, they found the colliery employees for the most part living in houses many of which had been occupied for many years. Some of these of brick and stone construction were in fairly good condition and comfortable. On the other hand a considerable number of the wooden houses were not in good condition. These were replaced by upwards of 350 new houses, all of which were supplied with water and sewer connection and electric lighting facilities, and the occupants were urged to and in many cases have become owners, the company selling the houses to employees at actual cost and payment being made by monthly contributions with interest at 6 per cent on the outstanding balances. Most, if indeed not all, of these houses are now owned outright and free from any liability to the company. A considerable number of houses were also built on plots of suitable land situate on the established streets, with water, sewer and electric connections, the land being given to the operatives free of cost if the employee built a house thereon, the cost being advanced at 6 per cent interest, repayable at the convenience of the employee owners.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
No such conditions as described on Wednesday night exist or at any time have existed at New Glasgow, Trenton or Sydney Mines in so far as the employees of the Scotia Company were or are concerned. I make this statement without fear of successful contradiction and from first-hand knowledge gained by official connection with the corporation for more than two score years and as its general manager and director for more than twenty years.
May I add that from the formation of the Scotia Company the value of a contented, loyal body of workers was recognized and fostered by the management, and a more skilful and enthusiastic group of coal miners and steel operators than those of the Scotia's employ do not exist anywhere. Leaders have been supplied from those workers to many similar undertakings both in Canada and in the United States. The success of the ideal to which I refer is evidenced by the fact that in the case of the mainland enterprise, which has operated continuously for more than fifty years, and in the case of the Sydney Mines coal and steel operations, carried on over a period of thirty years, no strike has ever occurred. True it is that on one brief occasion during the overstrained period of the war a ticket-of-leave Australian convict agitator appeared and succeeded in stirring up some little friction. That, however, was speedily settled by mutual agreement and with no stoppage of work and no shadow of unrest or suggestion of dissatisfaction has since developed-a record, Mr. Chairman, which I claim to be creditable both to the men and to the management, a record not excelled by any corporation in this Dominion operating a like diversified industry. During the period I have referred to, other corporations in Nova Scotia, both coal mining and steel companies, have had several severe and long continued strikes. One company within a period of twenty-five years has had more than a score of strikes. Another corporation had a stoppage of its operations extending considerably over a year -indeed, approaching two full years. The experience of the Scotia Company in that connection is, I submit, most illuminating, and so far as that corporation is concerned the denunciations of the various speakers on Wednesday evening last do not apply.
I am glad to have had the opportunity of making this statement, and I think it only fair to the corporation to which I have referred and to the workers employed by it that the committee should be in possession of the actual facts.


Mr. SMITH (Cumberland):: Which speakers are you referring to?


Thomas Cantley: To some of the speakers who spoke on Wednesday evening.


Robert Knowlton Smith: What speakers?


Thomas Cantley: I am not going to particularize them.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Will the hon. gentleman be
good enough to inform the committee as to the number of hours worked by the men employed at the mill at New Glasgow?


Thomas Cantley: I think the longest hours we have worked in recent years is a fifty-four hour week.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Are there night and day
shifts?


Thomas Cantley: I think so.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Do any of the men in the
steel mills work the same hours as they do at Sydney?


Thomas Cantley: I do not know what hours are worked at Sydney.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Does the night shift at New Glasgow work twelve hours?


Thomas Cantley: Not that I know of.


Abraham Albert Heaps: New Glasgow was not mentioned in any of the denouncements made on Wednesday evening.


Thomas Cantley: I agree with that.


Abraham Albert Heaps: We were referring particularly to conditions which are well known to exist at Glace Bay and Sydney. I do not think there is one hon. member of this house who would dispute the statements made in reference to those places, which statements have been made not only this year but in previous years. I think it is a little unfair for the previous speaker (Mr. Cantley) to throw suspicion upon the men and women of high reputation who went to the mills at Sydney and Glace Bay and investigated the conditions existing there, which conditions were condemned in the strongest possible language. Severe condemnation of these conditions was made also by the commission appointed by the government of Nova Scotia. I do not think there is a single hon. member who would dare to rise in his place and defend the conditions which exist at the steel mills of the Besco corporation. I must confess that I know very little about the conditions at New Glasgow, but neither I nor any other hon. member mentioned those particular works when this matter was under discussion.

Ways and Means-Customs Tariff
I had hoped, when the leader of the opposition and the leader of the house were unanimous in saying that better conditions should be provided for 'the men engaged in the steel industry in particular, there would have been some action on the part of the government. But what do we find? To-night the Minister of Finance, without adequate reason asks us to adopt a measure of increased protection to the British Empire Steel Corporation. What was the defence of the minister Wednesday evening? It was that the employees themselves had asked for this protection. Hon. members who are familiar with the conditions that prevail in the steel industry will realize how easy it is, with the company union they have, to pay the expenses of the men to Ottawa in order that they may plead on behalf of the company.
May I point out to the minister and to the committee a more classic -example than that of these men who came here and pleaded for the company? Those who have read the history of the civil war of the United States know how the slaves, who were mere chattels, fought on the side of their masters when the north was trying to emancipate them from chattel slavery. We have similar conditions to-day when an attempt is being made to free men from what might be called wage slavery. Even the men themselves object to the eight hour day, because they think for the moment it may mean a reduction in pay. I am surprised, however, that the Minister of Finance, who ought to know something of conditions in poor homes, who has risen from a humble home to the position he now occupies, should defend an increase-


Charles Avery Dunning: I must object to that. I was merely giving information to the committee. If my hon. friend will read what I said, he will not find in it any cause for surprise. It is my duty to give information and I merely gave it without comment; in fadt, I specifically so stated.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I would be the last person in the world to do an injustice to the Minister of Finance.


Charles Avery Dunning: My concluding remarks were:
What concerns me is how it is possible practically and definitely to apply it, and that feature of the matter, of course, requires consideration. I rose merely to advise the committee that the men had associated themselves unconditionally with the employers in asking for what is here granted.


Abraham Albert Heaps: But the Minister of Finance was trying to pilot through the house increased protection for this industry, and one 2419-158
of the reasons he gave to the house in support of the proposal was that the men themselves employed in the steel industry had agreed to this increased tariff protection.


Charles Avery Dunning: The men stated that they desired it, and I merely conveyed that information to the house.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I do not know whom the men Who desired it represented; they may or may not have represented all the men in the industry. But I have also had an opportunity of coming into contact with those men and I know that to-day they are complaining most bitterly of the conditions under which they are compelled to work.


Charles Avery Dunning: I have no doubt of it,
and properly so.


Abraham Albert Heaps: If they want redress, how are they to get it? They find it almost impossible to organize. Everything the company by strong organization can use against them is being so used. The only place to which they can look for redress is parliament. What is parliament doing? Instead of looking after the interests of the men it is looking after the interests of the owners of the industry, the capitalists; it is giving protection to the industry, and the men can wait until it suits the employers to give better conditions to their employees. It is common knowledge that in the past couple of days, since we had this discussion on Wednesday, there have been around these buildings some of the directors of the British Empire Steel Corporation. I have no objection to their coming here and pleading with their friends in the house; but how different would conditions be if the men had an opportunity of coming here. It is, however, difficult for them to come; they cannot afford to do so unless under the same conditions as the men came last year, their expenses being paid by the company, and pleaded for higher protection for the industry.
To-night I am making a plea for the men. At the moment I am not concerned as to the financial position of the corporation. I know there exist in the city of Sydney in the Dominion of Canada conditions which are a disgrace to this country, where men are compelled to work on night shifts thirteen hours at a stretch with an interval of only half an hour for something to eat, and where some weeks they work 102 hours. It is almost unheard-of; it is well-nigh unbelievable. To-night I was in a friend's house in Ottawa and the lady of the house said to me: "I read something in the newspaper about men working eleven and twelve hours a day. Surely they would

Unemployment in Alberta

not work eleven and twelve hours a day in the Dominion of Canada!" I had to tell her that men not only had to do that, but that on some shifts they had to work thirteen hours at a stretch.
Further, if an industry as wealthy as the British Empire Steel Corporation, with all the advantages it has at its command, cannot afford to provide for its men better conditions than those, Canada would in the long run be better off without such an industry. Can the industry afford to give those men better conditions? Rarely has there been an industry that of its own volition has given conditions to its employees. Parliament therefore takes a retrograde step if it gives protection to the shareholders who live in all parts of the world and refuses to give a little bit of protection to the men employed in the industry. We all admit that conditions under which men are compelled to work eleven, twelve and thirteen hours at a stretch, are intolerable. Our first duty therefore is not toward the shareholders but toward the man; yet we are not taking any action that would appear to afford better conditions to the men engaged in the industry. The other night hon. members representing those districts and representing the workers in Nova Scotia rose in their places and pleaded with the house that some action be taken.
Progress reported.


REPORTS OF COMMITTEES
[Stage Direction]
Seventh report of the special committee on pensions and returned soldiers' problems.- Mr. Power.
Third report of the special committee appointed to consider the Dominion Elections Act and the Corrupt Practices Act.- Mr. Power.
Richard Bedford Bennett: In looking over the Pension Act the other day, I saw no provision for the repeal of sections that might be inconsistent with the provisions of the new bill, and I thought it might be desirable to mention in the senate that such a section should be added, namely, that any provisions of the old act that were inconsistent with the proposed new act should stand repealed.


Mr. POWER:: Colonel Biggar, counsel for the committee, informed me that that particular point was covered, but I see the point raised by my hon. friend, and I shall take it up with him.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Saturday, May 24, 1930