[Stage Direction]
Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice) moved, that the House go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act by providing that pensions to officers, their widows, and constables, granted prior to the seventh day of July, one thousand nine hundred and nineteen, may be readjusted in accordance with the rates of pay for officers and constables provided by the said Act as amended prior to and on the seventh day of July, one thousand nine hundred and nineteen, but no such readjustment shall authorize the increase of any payments for pensions that accrued before the passing of the proposed legislation.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon.   S@: I notice from the newspapers that there seems to be some little altercation in connection with some of the activities of the Auditor General and that he has made a reply which has not been made public. I wonder if the Acting Minister of Finance would table the reply of the Auditor General?


Hon. J. A. ROBB (Acting Minister of Finance) :: As the Auditor General is the servant of parliament, I have no objection to tabling a copy of the letter that I addressed to him and a copy of his reply.



DISABLEMENT FUND

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. R. J. MANION (Fort William and Rainy River):: Would the Minister of
Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment be good enough to table the trust deed, or charter, or whatever it was, dealing with the trust fund that we were discussing yesterday, so that we might have an opportunity of studying it while we are waiting for his estimates to come up again?


Hon. H. S. BELAND (Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment):: It was my intention to proceed with the resolution to-day, but Mr. Scammell is going tc Montreal to
S3i
Questions Unanswered

attend a meeting in connection with the Last Post fund, and he intimated that he would not have time to prepare a complete memorandum on the subject. As soon as the memorandum is ready, I shall move the House into committee on the resolution.


Robert James Manion: Might I suggest to the minister that it would be more convenient if we could have, not necessarily the memorandum, but the trust deed itself, or at least a copy of it, tabled, so that we might see it in advance. Because of absence of documents we often argue in this House on questions that we have not had time to consider properly. Perhaps the minister could lay this trust deed on the table a couple of days in advance.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I would be glad to do that, but I am informed by Mr. Scammell that there is no deed of trust.


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition):: No man is giving $100,000 without saying what it is for. Undoubtedly, there may be no deed of trust in the ordinary sense, but there will be something from the man who gave the money stating what the money is to be used for. There is no excuse for that not being ready now. Something of that kind must be in existence.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Why should my right hon. friend not accept my word conveying to him the information I received from Mr. Scammell? Mr. Scammell says that there is no such thing as a deed of trust; that after consultation with the principal donator, he was left entirely at liberty to dispose of the fund as he judged best in the interest of the returned men. That is the information I have. But I asked Mr. Scammell to prepare a full memorandum on this subject for me to present to the House, and until I have that, T do not wish to discuss the question any further.


Arthur Meighen: I do not want to be in a position of leaving the minister free to state that I disputed the fact that there was any deed of trust. I did not. I did not anticipate there would1 be a deed of trust in the form suggested. What I did anticipate, and what I cannot help thinking must be the fact, is that there is something in the nature of a letter or other written document or correspondence which sets out the purpose.


Mr. ARTHURS:: Which was quoted in
the order in council.
'Mr. Beland.]


Henri Sévérin Béland: I beg pardon, I never
quoted that.


James Arthurs: There is a quotation
in the order in council reciting the deed of gift.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I submit there is no such
quotation.


James Arthurs: When will the memorandum be ready?


Henri Sévérin Béland: It is for Mr. Scammell
to say. I think it will be ready in a few days, if it is not ready to-day.



QUESTIONS ON ORDERS OF THE DAY UNANSWERED


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Arthur Meighen: I asked the government
to procure copies of correspondence passing between the government of Canada or the Department of External Affairs, or of Trade and Commerce, and the government of Great Britain, or the Imperial Shipping Committee, with relation to ocean transport. I have had no response to the request as yet. When may I expect it?


Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: The Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) is absent, and when he returns I will bring the matter to his attention.


Arthur Meighen: Will any of the matters that are still standing owing to the absence of ministers be answered-


Ernest Lapointe: My hon. friend cannot
complain of the Prime Minister being absent. It is about the first day he has been absent.


Arthur Meighen: I was not referring particularly to him. I can recall half a dozen matters that have been spoken to on the Orders of the Day as respects which the leader of the House at the time stated that the minister particularly concerned would be consulted and a report made to the House; but we have never had a report on one of them yet.


Ernest Lapointe: I am sorry my hon.
friend is complaining, because we are receiving commendations from all over the country on the progress made this session.


Arthur Meighen: Will the hon. gentleman
bring down the commendation?


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: That would be
an easy job.


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SOLDIER SETTLEMENT-REGULATIONS
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. ALFRED SPEAKMAN (Red Deer):: Two or three days ago I asked a question relative to the position of soldier settlement under the act, and I was requested to repeat the question when the Minister of Immigration was in his seat. I asked the question:
Is it the intention of the government to introduce legislation during this session providing for reduction of indebtedness on the part of returned men who have taken land under the provisions of the Land Settlement Act?	.


James Alexander Robb: There was a report of the committee last session.


Alfred Speakman: Yes.


James Alexander Robb: The government is looking
carefully into that. I may say that there is a. possibility of bringing in some measure, or of instructing the officers to make some recommendation, but it is a mistaken idea to believe that the land was all over-valued. Since I have had charge of that department I have observed from time to time the prices at which land was sold. Perhaps a man's wife would take sick, or he might take sick himself, or for some other reason he would give up farming, and the farm ;would be sold, and I think I am safe in saying that in the majority of cases these farms have sold at a higher price than was paid for them. But I will -admit that there are some limited districts where apparently the valuation at the time the -land was bought was not as carefully made as it might have been. There is an admission that the stock, and possibly the implements, were bought at the time when prices were at the peak, and that will be carefully considered and something done.


Alfred Speakman: That is why I put my question in general terms, so as to include the loans made for stock and other purposes.



CANADA GRAIN ACT

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Marquette):: Can
the government give any information as to when the revised Grain Act will be brought down?


James Alexander Robb: I think the Minister of Trade and Commerce has the chairman of the grain commission working on that now. I will direct his attention my hon. friend's question.



SUPPLY PUBLIC WORKS

[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Public works, salaries, $689,655.
["The first three bills, Nos. 17, 18 and' 19 appear on the order paper as being printed in both languages. As to the other two, Nos. 20 and 21, I am informed by the Clerk that they are now printed in both languages and an indication to that effect was made on the sheet which I have."]
Mr. STEVENS:: When this item was under consideration the other day a discussion arose which I think was of very much greater importance than, perhaps, the majority of the members of the House realized. It touched upon a very vital matter in connection with not only this department but several other departments. An analysis was being secured from the minister of -the amounts annually paid to retired civil servants of his particular department, and there was difficulty in ascertaining out of what -particular fund it was paid, or under what heading. The minister gave us a figure which was somewhat startling, that in the year 1924 $75,600 had been paid out for superannuated or retired servants of has department. I made a search through the estimates to find out how this was disposed of. This was in the Public Works department, of course, and I located it under " Superannuation," I will refer to that in a moment. The minister shows an apparent saving this year in salaries of some $18,000 or $19,000, but when we take into consideration the huge amount that is being paid out to civil servants in his department on being retired under the Calder Act and under the Superannuation Act, we find that as a matter of fact the cost of this department, in common with other departments, has actually increased by a very large sum. In other words, while there have been retirements brought about during the past few years, it seems that the places of those who have retired have been filled immediately and the full strength of the staff maintained. If hon. members will turn to -page 25 of the Estimates they will see revealed in striking and very accurate figures the enormous extent to which this annual retirement allowance has grown. Under " Superannuation " there is ian item entitled "Statutory" which reads as follows:
Civil Service Superannuation and Retirement
Act, R.S. Chap. 17	 $ 730,000
Public Service Retirement Act	 775,000

I wish to bring to the attention of the committee that since a year ago this expenditure has been increased by $355,000. There has been a saving of $55,000 under the other heading, leaving a net increase of $300,000 in one year. Under this, of course, come the retirements from the various departments. Before I deal with that subject, however, let me point to a still more striking fact. In 1921-22 the
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figure was $760,000; to-day it is $1,505,000. In other words, in the space of three years the expenditure under superannuation has increased by $745,000. That we may appreciate the significance of this, let me take a couple of departments, the cost of which is very largely in the employment of help-wages. The Customs department, for instance, over the same period, has increased in cost $3,272,000; the Post Office Department, $1,710,000.


Mr. PUTNAM:: Do those figures cover both salary and superannuation?


Henry Herbert Stevens: I am speaking of the cost of running the departments. I have cited these two departments as illustrations anH to emphasize the necessity of the government being brought as early as possible to a realization of where we are drifting with these expenditures. While we are told from time to time that there is a reduction in the estimates- $19,000 in this case-yet we find in the Public Works department there is an increase in superannuation of some $75,000 for last year, showing that as a matter of fact the cost of carrying on the department has really increased by about $55,000 or $60,000. And this in face of the declaration of the government that they are economizing, that the cost of operation is actually being reduced.
Now, take the minister's own department. It is not my desire to offer any very sharp criticism of his staff, hut I do say to him that certainly the Public Works department is not increasing its activities, consequently there is no need for an increase of staff, and I think we could afford-shall I say?-to carry on with a smaller staff. I am not asking the minister to discharge a lot of his employees, but I do suggest that when he retires a man or woman, as the case may be, he should not fill the vacancy until it is absolutely necessary. In other words, he should not pass a civil servant over to the superannuation fund under the Finance department estimates and then immediately appoint another person to the position thus created. It will he noted that the number of employees has been reduced by only four during the past year. This condition permeates the whole service and increases the cost of carrying on the affairs of the country, so that unless we do something in (the nature of definite retrenchment I do not know where we are going to drift. A few days ago the hon. member for 'St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Marler) in the course of a speech divided the national expenditures into what he called controllable and uncontrollable. Here is undoubtedly controllable expenditure. We are not now in the realm of statutory expenditure 
such as the public debt interest, we are in the realm of controllable expenditure, and under that head, notwithstanding that there is a contraction of demand upon the department for service with a diminishing expenditure on public works, the cost of running (the department is kept up to this very high level, with the result that the so-called economy is wiped out two or three times over by simply adding to the superannuation estimates for all of the departments $745,000 during the last two or three years.


Mr. ROBINSON:: Are not the retirements
fixed by statute?


Henry Herbert Stevens: Certainly, the superannuation is paid out under statute. When I speak of controllable expenditure I refer to this vote of $614,000 now under consideration. In order to clear up any misapprehension, I am pointing out that this is the class of expenditure which we must expect to cut down if we are going to effect any economies, and again I say to the minister, I am not arguing for wholesale dismissals, but I do submit that when the minister retires-as he did last year-186 employees, it is not necessary to fill all the vacancies.


Mr. MARTELL:: How do the vacancies filled compare with the retirements?


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister could not
give us that information yesterday.


Hon. J. H. KING (Kootenay, Minister of Public Works):: Pardon me, I gave information as to retirements and the positions refilled under Civil Government.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I am not blaming the minister, as he would have found if he had waited a moment. He could not tell us because the 186 include not only those in the inside service in Ottawa but others scattered throughout the country. I was going to add this information. On the inside service there is a reduction of 4: last year there were 320; this year there are 316. But there were 186 retirements. The minister could not tell the committee yesterday how many of these were outside and how many inside.


Mr. KING (Kootenay):: Yes, I told you
that.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Will the minister tell me now? I do not want to misrepresent him; the thing is bad enough if one tells the bald truth.


John Warwick King: There were 12
retirements from the inside service.


Henry Herbert Stevens: There were 12 retirements and 8 new appointments in the inside service

Supply-Public Works
at Ottawa. There were 174 retirements from the outside service. But let me emphasize this for a moment. In all the departments, from day to day and from week to week there are retirements, and there are those, perhaps, who give up their positions. On the other hand there are demands for additional clerical help. It may be on account of a rush of work in the Interior department; it may be a need for extra help for a week or two in some other department. But, instead of drawing upon some department that has a surplus of idle clerical help, appeal is made to the Civil Service Commission and the necessary extra assistance is obtained by additional appointments.


Lewis Herbert Martell: I quite agree that when extra help is required the departments are too prone to call in new recruits. That was my own experience When I was in the civil service. But as things stand to-day, can ithe minister obtain a transfer of employees from one department to another without proceeding through the Civil Service Commission?


Henry Herbert Stevens: I 6peak subject to correction, but I am sure there is nothing in the Civil Service Act or in any other act to prevent the minister of any department from borrowing clerical help from some other section of the service. Of course I am referring to the inside service, at Ottawa.
an instance in his own department that I happen to know of. I am not going to give the names of individuals; I do not want to bring the name of a civil servant in here with the idea of exposing him to ridicule unless he deserves it in a very striking sense; but there were two gentlemen in his department some years ago, both doing the same work, both having about the same amount of service to render. One of them succeeded in getting four assistants, while the other was carrying on the work by himself, and the man with four assistants was getting $1,500 a year, I think, more than the other. When this discrepancy was called to the attention of the authorities-the civil service adjustment board, I think it was-the reply was: "Oh, this man has four assistants, therefore he is entitled to a higher salary than the other man" - although the other man was doing the work without any assistants. Now, that is what is followed all through the service. I know there are many civil servants who are doing their best for the country, working overtime and never saying a word, economizing and keeping their branches well in hand-men of high efficiency. These are militated against by others who are reckless of public economy and who seek to build their branches up to the highest magnitude possible in order that they may bolster up their own importance and incidentally increase their own salaries That is the crux of the whole business.


Lewis Herbert Martell: How long has that been the rule? I know that right up to 1914 it could not be done; it all had to go through the Civil Service Commission, upon requisition duly made.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I cannot go back before
1914 or thereabouts, but I know it was practised in many instances during the war. But if it is not the case let us make it the case as quickly as possible. I am satisfied that it is the case; that the pathway is open; that all it requires is that the departments exercise their authority. Now, what are the interfering influences that are preventing the government from doing this? There are perhaps two or three. There is the desire to give an opportunity to those on the long waiting list to get into the civil service. But there is an influence much more sinister than that, and it is this: under our present system of handling the civil service, we-and when I say "we" I mean the country by its policy; parliament, if you like, by the act; the government by its administration-encourage the head of a branch, by the very nature of our laws, to build that branch up to as large a personnel as he can. I will give the minister


Harold Putnam: Was the man with four
assistants literally doing work no more difficult than the man without any?


Henry Herbert Stevens: He did his work infinitely less efficiently.


Harold Putnam: I mean, was his work of
the same volume?


Henry Herbert Stevens: The volume was the same.


Harold Putnam: The responsibility, and all that?


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes. This practice, this
habit-because that is what it is-into which we have allowed certain branches of the civil service to drift has cost this country literally millions of dollars, and we are not getting an equivalent service for the expenditure. Further, and worse still and more unjust, perhaps fifty per cent of the civil servants are faithful, loyal, hardworking and efficient, and they, to use a colloquial expression, "get it in the neck ''-that is not parliamentary, but it really fits the case.


Mr. HAMMELL:: What about the other
fifty per cent?
Supply-Public Works


Henry Herbert Stevens: Well, what about them?
Mr. HAMiMELL: Are they inefficient?


Henry Herbert Stevens: I have been trying to tell my hon. friend, if his mind had been open to penetration, that not only are they inefficient but they are taking unfairly from this country literally millions of dollars, That is what I say. If my hon. friend, who smiles at that statement of mine, can give me any plainer language I will use it.


William James Hammell: It is plain enough for
me. I thoroughly agree with my 'hon friend.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I do not know whether
that is a compliment to my reasoning or not. Now I am exceedingly serious about this. I know the difficulty of a member standing in the House and criticizing the civil service, and I do want to make myself clear: I am personally acquainted with many jcivil servants-I could name them by the dozen-than whom there are no better men in Canada. But there are a lot of barnacles hanging on to this government and battening upon the rest of the service, and it is about time we got rid of them.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Was that always the
case?


Henry Herbert Stevens: Certainly, to a large
extent.


Lewis Herbert Martell: I quite agree with my
hon. friend, from my own experience in the service, but the present minister is not to blame. Let us get together and I fancy we can weed opt forty per cent of the civil servants and have a better service.


Henry Herbert Stevens: It is a thing that has
grown and grown. I recall that just after the outbreak of war, in 1915, I made a similar statement, but we were plunged into war and abnormal demands were made upon various branches of the civil service, some of which were worked to the point of distraction. That was an inopportune time to step in and make any such segregation. But a few years ago, I think the first year this government were in office, the hon. Postmaster General (Mr. Murphy) told the House about some very striking saving that had been made in his department. I have the figures before me and I am going to quote them merely as an illustration-I do not want to branch off into another department, but it will serve to emphasize this very point. The Postmaster General told us the other day that he was making a direct saving; that on account of the introduction of certain machines, which I understand are very good and which I am 
going to examine more closely when the opportunity offers, he had got rid of a large number of employees. But here are the facts, and this is what we have to take as the test of the case: In 1921-22 the estimate of the Post Office Department was 829,533,671; this year it is 831,254,634. The supplementary estimates are not down, but the increase already shown is 81,710,963. What is the use of telling us about introduction of up-to-date machinery and that someone has been lopped off, when the figures show an increase of a couple of million dollars in that one department in a matter of three years? Then, of course, there is an increase of $745,000 in superannuation over the same period. Here are the figures for the Customs department: 1921-22, $6,782,195; this year, $10,054,504, an increase of $3,272,309. Again you have a startling and damning condemnation of the system that we are following-there is something radically wrong with it.
Now what I am trying to point out to the minister is this: Here is a practical suggestion, here is a wholly feasible suggestion, which I think ought to be taken up at once by the government, and not be put off to be considered this year or next; let us take it up now. When vacancies occur in the civil service, turn to some other branch of the service which is over-staffed and draw men from that branch to fill the vacancies. You are then not turning people out on the street. I have heard it stated here in the House, and it has often been replied to me: Oh, you are going to turn these men and their families out on the street-perhaps in the middle of winter;-it is not fair. I admit that, and I am not asking you to do it. But, I say, stop sending out these appeals for new appointees, stop asking the Civil Service Commission to make new appointments, when the help you require can be obtained from some other department. The minister may say to me: Oh, but I want such and such a clerk for such and such a purpose-and I must say that they have some of the most meaningless names possible for some of these positions; I can pick them out at random in any department. I see here for instance, principal clerks, senior clerks, assistant senior clerks, senior quality surveyors, account clerks, law clerks, audit clerks, clerk-bookkeepers, and so on. Take, for instance, an audit clerk or an account clerk or a senior clerk; any one of these ought to be able to do the work of the other. If an audit clerk cannot do an account clerk's work, he is no good; and if an account clerk cannot do an audit clerk's work, he is not fit for his duties,-and I am talking

Supply-Public Works
on a subject I know a good deal about; I would not give you a fig for a clerk who was carried on my books and could not do an audit clerk's work as well as ordinary accounting work, they are both the same. Why have this multiplicity of distinctions, and then when a vacancy occurs among the account clerks, though there may be a dozen audit clerks idle, a new account clerk is brought into the service? Let us sweep aside these cobwebs of formality and dilatoriness, and attack this problem. It can be done, I venture to say that a reduction in the cost of the civil service, and in the cost of administering the affairs of this country, can be made within a year that will surprise both the government and this parliament, if we seriously attack the problem.


Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):: Does my
hon. friend suggest that we are not already making transfers of employees from one department to another. That is being done every day. I am not taking any credit for it, but that is actually being done every day.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Then how in the name of common sense does it happen that we hear daily protestations that an effort is being made at redaction, when we find that in this department, which is the one we are speaking of now, though twelve were retired last year, only four less appear here.


John Warwick King: That is the inside service.


Charles A. Stewart: I am referring to the particular statement my bon. friend made, that no transfers are taking place, but that new individuals are being brought into the service.


Henry Herbert Stevens: 
Charles A. Stewart: We do that


Henry Herbert Stevens: But only in a trivial
nuimiber of cases.


Charles A. Stewart: The Civil
Service 'Commission have a list of all these people. For example, we send to the commission the names of individuals who are not required in the hope that they will be put into some other department where there is a vacancy. I do not wish to interrupt my
bon. friend, but I wanted to point out that what he is complaining is not done is actually being practised.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Now the minister says
that these vacancies are filled by transfers.
I find that in the Post Office Department in 1924-25 there were 796 employees, and' this year there are 821. I find that in the Public Works Department there is a decrease of four as compared with last year. Let us turn to some other department. We have a shrinkage of one in the Patent and Copyright office, but in the meantime retirements have occurred: I do not know how many have occurred in Ottawa; I have been trying to get that information all session; I asked the commission for it; I asked the Statistical branch for it, and I also asked one or two of the ministers when their estimates were up, but I have not been able to get the information. All this information should have been laid on the table. I have under my hand the retirements from the Public Works department, outside and inside, showing retirements as follows: in 1921, 57; 1922, 54; 1923, 54; 1924, 186; or a total of 351 retirements in four years from that one department. But now I oome back to the point I made before. Although you have had 351 reitiramlents from this one department alone, and they are costing the country $147,515 a year, the cost of running the department is going up; most certainly it is not shrinking. The minister may not have been in his seat when I said this before and I will repeat it for his benefit. In the Post Office Department there is an increase of $1,700,000, and in Customs an increase of 83,272,000, over the cost of two yeans ago. So where are you going to find the vallue of the retirements and the vacancies?


Charles A. Stewart: I am not finding fault with my hon. friend for his criticism of the increase in the Civil service; that is his privilege. All I want to say to him is that he will find as the years go by and as Canada and the business of Canada grows, there is bound to be an increase. But I want to make it plain that the particular matter of which my hon. friend complains- that there are no transfers being made from one branch to another-is not correct, for that is being practised to-day. True, it has not been practised very long, but it is in practice at the moment in the civil service.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I will reiterate what I have already said, and add to it this: The very mental attitude the minister takes to my suggestion is unfortunate. The minister's
Supply-Public Works

attitude is to justify everything. I tried to point out a moment ago that it was evident there was something wrong in, the situation, and for heaven's sake-


Charles A. Stewart: For heaven's sake do not put me in the position of justifying it. I agree with my hon. friend, that it is a good thing transfers should take place rather than bringing new blood into the service, and that is taking place to-day.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I wish the minister had listened to all I had to say from the start, and then he would have realized my point when he did pick me up. I do not wish him to steer me off the track. I have a practical and wholly non-partisan suggestion, one that I think will be accepted by all parts of the House. I tried to point out that there has been undoubtedly a shrinkage of service in this department. I said further, that I did not ask the minister to discharge employees from his department and throw them on the street without notice; but I do say, what in the name of common sense is the use of superannuating 12 employees on the inside and 170 odd on the outside, and then refilling their positions? That is not the exercise of good economy. Let me go back to figures for the benefit of the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart). As a matter of fact, this year the estimates show a shrinkage of $19,000 but there is represented in another account namely, superannuation, some $75,000. So that there is no saving at all. Further, there has been an increase in the superannuation account in three years of exactly double, $745,000. These are startling figures.


Clifford William Robinson: Why was the number of retirements last year so much greater than the previous year?


Henry Herbert Stevens: I presume that was caused by the so called Calder Act which was extended, I think, a year ago for another year and expired some time during-


Mr. MURDOCK:: On October 31.


Henry Herbert Stevens: My hon. friend (Mr. Robinson) has mentioned the Calder Act, and I say it is not necessary to retire people under that act. However it was found very convenient during the last two or three years to retire public servants. I know a member of the staff of the Minister of the Interior who was-


Lewis Herbert Martell: Will the hon. gentleman permit me a question?


Henry Herbert Stevens: Just let me finish this
sen.ence:	I know a member of the staff of
(Mr. C. A. Stewart.]
the Minister of the Interior who was forced into retirement. He was one of the best civil servants that ever occupied a position in Ottawa, a most valuable man, in the prime of his life. He is out of the service now on an annuity of two or three thousand dollars although his valuable services might have been retained to the country. That is what I call gross extravagance.


Charles A. Stewart: Who was it?


Henry Herbert Stevens: I will not tell the minister now, but I will disclose his name when the estimates of the department are being considered.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Is it not a fact that a
lot of people took advantage of the opportunity to retire under the Caldler Act during the last two or three years rather than under the Superannuation Act. If they had come under the latter statute they would have had to pay back a certain amount of their salaries at the rate of 5 per cent to the government in order to enjoy the benefits of superannuation, whereas under the Calder Act they could retire without repaying anything. I am not saying whether this procedure was right or wrong; I am simply urging that as a possible explanation of the increase. I quite agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Stevens) that there are too many highfalutin titles among officials and half the time one cannot understand "who is who." It would1 be much better to have the positions of these officials clearly and explicitly stated-for example "audit clerk" and so on. Otherwise in many cases we will not know what we are doing when we came to deal with them. I rose simply for the purpose of making it clear that. I thought the increase in retirements was due to the Calder Act.


Mr. CHAPLIN:: I understand there are
twelve retirements and eight new appointments. How many of these new appointees have been transferred from other services?


John Warwick King: Before answering my hon. friend I should like to reply to the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens). Had he followed the explanations given last night he would not have fallen into the error he has to-day. He represented that I showed a saving of $18,000 but said that there had been retirements involving a charge of $75,000, and that any saving made had been wiped out by these retirement allowances. If he had accepted the figures that were given him 4 p.m. last night he would see that although there were annuities amounting tc $75,000 the abolition of various

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positions had resulted in a saving of some 360,751, leaving a net charge of $15,000. That is an increase if you wish to call it so. Nevertheless the department is still able to demonstrate a saving of $3,000, a fact which my hon. friend ignored. The hon. member laboured the charge that the government is making superannuations without abolishing positions.
1 have pointed out to him, however, that last year through the abolition of positions we brought about a saving of approximately $60,-
000.	During the last four years there has been a saving of $207,949, and that is applicable to the Department of Public Works alone.


Henry Herbert Stevens: How does the minister
establish the saving of $60,000 when the estimates this year are only about $19,000 below those of last year?


John Warwick King: I am rather surprised at my hon. friend asking that question, because in his opening remarks he indicated that superannuation was not charged to the Department of Public Works and is not shown in that department.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Neither is it.


John Warwick King: Then why ask the question if it is not charged to the Department of Public Works and would not be shown there?


Henry Herbert Stevens: My hon. friend was'
arguing that there was a saving in his department to the amount of $60,000.


John Warwick King: To the people of Canada. If the accounts were carried under the Department of Public Works it would show a saving to this department, but that is not the case. Last evening, without unduly extending my remarks, I tried to make the position of the public works service as clear as I could. My hon. friend has suggested that there are not many retirements in this service, there being only four apparent on this year's figures. I should like to say that a comparison of the public works service to-day with the year 1914 and the intervening years since, will show that there has been an effort on the part of the department to keep the personnel at the lowest possible minimum. I will get the details to establish this fact.


Lewis Herbert Martell: While the minister is
looking up that information I should like to say that I do not think the minister or the government are responsible for these superannuations; it has been the policy of the country. Why not pass these general items, and let us fix a day when we might discuss the whole question of superannuation? It is perhaps true that the country has gone to extremes in this matter, and that as a result of the policy pursued persons have been retired who have been able to successfully compete with outside professional men on account of the annual allowances they receive. However, the government is not to blame for the system in vogue; it is an iniquitous system that has grown up in Canada ever since confederation. I would ask that we Should not delay the passing of the vote of any particular department in discussing the superannuation system, but that a day should be fixed for considering the whole matter in all its bearings.


John Warwick King: My hon. friend
(Mr. Stevens) has wandered into the field of the service as a whole and has discussed the votes "Civil Service Superannuation and Retirement Act, R. S. Chap. 17, $730,000" and "Public Service Retirement Act, $775,000." Under the former statute the employee contributes to the superannuation fund, and when he is superannuated he receives a payment from this fund. This law has been on the statute book for many years. In regard to the Public Service Retirement Act the present government takes no responsibility for the enactment of that measure, although we are responsible for its administration; the act was the creation of my hon. friend's government which brought it into force in 1920. It was stated definitely in the House last night by an hon. gentleman that it had been a very bad act, and that it 'had led to extravagance. I am not so sure about that. There is a large body of competent men in the service to-day who are doing useful work. They were not in a position to take advantage of the Superannuation Act; and when the late government undertook an investigation, one which was very unpopular, it brought about the condition of which my hon. friend complains to-day.
The classifying of the various positions, with the different titles that were given was done during his time when his government was in office. The Calder Act was introduced at that time in order to take care of men who had worked many years in the service and whom it would be necessary to retire in the curtailment that followed. So you find in each year there have been retirements in the Public Works department. Those I gave yesterday. In 1920 and 1921 there were 57; in 1922 , 54; in 1923, 54 and in 1924, 186. The question has been asked: Why so many retirements this year? The answer is obvious. The Calder Act disappeared in October of last year. In my department there were many old men who, if they did not retire be-
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fore the Calder Act expired, would have retired without the benefit of any superannuation, because they were old and in the poorly paid class in the department. It would, therefore, have been to their disadvantage if they had not retired in 1924. Many of them did retire. We confined the retirements to men whose retirement on account of old age or illhealth, would be of advantage to the service and to themselves. It was the effort of the department to abolish vacancies as they occurred through death or resignation, and we find the Public Works department to-day in this position. In 1912-13 there were 311 people employed in the inside service. For 1925-26 we have 316 people employed. But in the last few years 38 employees, who were not in the inside service but who were working in other services of the department, and who were not shown in the civil government list, were brought into the inside service and are now known as inside service employees. If we exclude these 38 employees, the department to-day is working on the basis of 278 as against 311 in 1912-13. I am satisfied that there has been a serious effort on the part of the officials, and it is the policy of my department, to decrease the number of employees as much as possible in the interest of efficiency and the proper carrying on of the work of the department.


Lewis Herbert Martell: What were the increases from 1911 to 1921? As the minister's department was not a war department, I should like to know that.


John Warwick King: The number of
employees is as follows:
1910-	H	
2571911-	12	
2721912-	13	
3111913-	14	
3671914-	15	
3961915-	16	
3961916-	17	
3961917-	18	
3961918-	19	
3501919-	20	
3501920-	21	
3501021-22	
3251922-	23	
2951923-	24	
3261924-	25	
3201925-	26	
316
It was in the year 1923-24 that we blanketed in the 38 employees of whom I have spoken as having been brought from other services into the inside service.
Last night the hon. member for West York (Sir Henry Drayton) asked some questions which I think I should reply to, although he is not in his seat at the present time. The retirements from June 30, 1920, to December 
31, 1924, have been 351. Gratuities amounting to $163,229 have been paid. As regards annuities under the Calder Act, 31 persons in the inside service have been retired at a cost of $28,960.10. As regards annuities under the Superannuation Act, one person has been retired at $1,470. This makes 32 persons retired with a payment of $30,430.10 for the four years. Of these 32 positions, 16 have been abolished and 16 are being continued. That statement will show that of these 32 retirements within the inside service, 50 per cent of the positions have been abolished. That will fairly meet the criticism of the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) in regard to the matter of retirements from the service.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister said that
I had attempted to deceive the country by my statement.


John Warwick King: Not deceive.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I took my hon. friend's
words down and those are the exact words he used.


John Warwick King: I said that the
hon. member could not deceive the House; that the House was convinced as to the fact, but that a statement of that kind could deceive the country. That was my remark.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister then proceeded to say that this Calder Act was not his baby nor his government's baby; that it was a bad act or something of that kind and the product of the previous government and that we would have to take the blame for it. In the next breath, he turned around and cited a criticism made by an hon. member * here last night, and he said that he did not agree with that criticism. He justified the act and his justification is shown in the large number retired under it.


John Warwick King: I would' not have my hon. friend leave that impression on the committee. I did not say that it was a bad act. I said that an hon. member last night had said it was a bad act.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I know what my hon.
friend said. He sought to lead this committee to believe that the government pre-ceeding this one were responsible for the act and that they were culpable.


Mr. HEALY:: So they are.


Henry Herbert Stevens: "So they are," says my
hon. friend. That may be quite true, but the minister and his colleagues for the last three years and some months have taken advantage

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of that act. They have renewed it at least once, if not more than once, and the minister has retired in his department alone 294 employees, most, if not all of whom have been retired under that act. Last year there were 186 retirements in his department, I do not know how many under the Calder Act, but nearly all of them, 170 or 175 at any rate. What is the necessity of our wasting time in discussing who passed the act, or whether it was a good or bad act? The point which I am coming to and which the minister has evaded and escaped is the question of economy. By the way, conditions have arisen in the last two years that impress that upon our attention. I am telling the government now how I think they can economize. There is not the slightest response from the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) or the Minister of Public Works (Mr. King) to the suggestion.


John Warwick King: Actions speak
louder than words.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The Minister of the Interior berated me because I brought the subject up.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon. friend is not quite fair to me. I am not criticizing him for his suggestion; I am interested in any suggestion.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister presented to my suggestion an attitude of justifying present conditions.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon. friend is very good at trying to construe what other people are saying. That cannot be read into any of the language I used. I say most emphatically that I am interested in saving money in the service.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Very good. Let us start from that point.


Charles A. Stewart: I simply rose to put my hon. friend aright on one statement he made, that there were few or no transfers going on in the service.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I did not say that: I say, when vacancies occur let us fill them from other branches. The minister said that was being done. I will admit that it may be done in odd cases. If the government does not want to take the responsibility of amending the act, let parliament do so and make it obligatory upon the government to adopt such a policy. That is the only point I was trying to make. I pointed out that it was a habit that had grown up in this country. I quite agree with the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Martell) that for years and years
we had drifted into a bad habit. I do not say this parliament is to blame more than others, but parliament is to blame if it allows it to drift along. Why can we not frankly face the situation and say that we are prepared to call a halt in these matters? Taking the estimates of the Department of Public Works, we provide $614,000 for 316 employees. It is fair to say that some of those may retire and the full amount may not be required. It would be proper under the circumstances to Lower the estimate a little and allow for retirements of that kind. I am not particularly urging the point, but let us give some evidence, some decision and show a fixed determination to follow the course of practical economy which will reveal itself in dollars and cents in the estimates before the House.


John Warwick King: The hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Chaplin) spoke of the positions dropped. There were ten positions dropped. Six of them will be filled, of which two are new positions. They will be filled during the year, in all probability. And one position will be revived. And there were three persons transferred from the Ottawa building staff.


Mr. HODGINS:: Has the minister any power to dismiss any of his officials or staff?


John Warwick King: The minister may dismiss for cause. The staff, is pretty much regulated by the Civil Service Commission. If we find we have an excess staff we recommend retirement, and that is looked after by the Civil Service Commission.


Mr. FORKE:: If there is over-manning the minister will be responsible?


John Warwick King: Yes. The staff has been graded and the whole service in each department has been gone over by the commission. They set the number of employees, and place them, and say "This is your duty and your position". And that is the way the estimate is made up, each position having its classification. It is true that the government are responsible for the retirements and increases in the service, but it is done through the commission, and the commission have graded the service as it is to-day.


Archie Latimer Hodgins: In the case of a person on the staff as a permanent official, the minister cannot dismiss him-at least, if he does dismiss him the Civil Service Commission take the matter up and give the man a position somewhere else. Is that true?
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John Warwick King: I think the
government have great difficulty in dismissing officials without cause-at least they could not retire an official and fill the position with another employee or another person.


Robert Forke: We hear the statement made by a responsible member of this House, who has had considerable experience, that fifty per cent of the civil service is inefficient and that the staff is largely over-manned. There is no doubt that a feeling exists in the country that the civil service costs far too much. The expenditure of the country is to a large extent uncontrollable, and if we are to practise economy it can only be in those items in which the government has control. We hear about economy, economy, all the time, and yet when it comes to the estimates we find we are just in the same place as before. I question very much if we have as large a population in Canada as we had three years ago, and yet we hear continually about the growing services of the country and the demand for more service. If our population is getting smaller and our service is increasing, where are we going? I do not feel like blaming the ministers too much, because it seems to me they are largely the creatures of circumstances. I like the suggestion of the hon. member from Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens), .that we should get together and find some method of remedying this state of affairs; cease playing politics altogether and try to find a solution for the whole problem. It is an alarming state of affairs, and the country is up in arms about the cost of government. I sincerely hope that we can find some method of improving matters. I like the suggestion of transferring from one department to another when occasion requires, and I think economy might be effected by not appointing new officials in certain cases. I have no doubt that if anyone familiar with the service would inspect the whole system he would find that there were some departments overworked and others which had not enough work to do. We require business methods to be applied to the civil service in order to remedy the existing conditions.


John Warwick King: I do not think
it is a fair statement to say that fifty per cent of the civil servants are inefficient and unrequired.


Robert Forke: Not unrequired.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I rise to a point of order. Both hon. gentlemen have wholly misstated my observation. What I said was that fifty per cent of the service was of the very highest

type, the best in the country, men who are faithful and loyal and giving valuable services to the country, and in many cases working freely overtime and long hours. I said it was unfair to this fifty per cent, using the word in a general sense, that a large number of others who were wholly inefficient and unworthy of their positions should make it more difficult for these first-mentioned employees.


Robert Forke: I wrote down what the hon. gentleman said and I have it exactly.


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Pelletier):: The
hon. member from Vancouver Centre rose to a point of order. What was the point?


Henry Herbert Stevens: It was just to get an opportunity to explain to the minister.


John Warwick King: It has been the
desire and policy of the government to reduce the service, and I cannot give figures offhand, but I have no doubt they will be given later on in the discussion of estimates. Some thousands in the service of the government have been retired in the last few years. It is true there have been some increases. The postal service and the customs service have been increased, and those services will increase because Canada is growing in population today, despite what some people say. We know there is an increase in population. One has only to consider the school attendance in Canada, and there you will have a pretty good index as to the growth of the population. Those services will undoubtedly increase from time to time. We had a very influential delegation before the government a few days ago, and there have been suggestions in this House that the Customs department were not giving the protection they should and were not preventing smuggling. If the minister is going to give the efficient service he would like to give along the boundary, and in the patrolling of the waters of the Pacific and the Atlantic, to prevent the smuggling and the trafficking that is going on, then there will certainly be an increase in the service and an increase in the expenditure to maintain that service.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Mr. Chairman, as I have already suggested, I do not see why one minister should be put under fire as regards this question of increases in the public service. What has been said by the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) is true to a considerable extent; there may not be fifty per cent barnacles in the service, but there are many cases where savings can be effected. The minister in charge of this department is

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not responsible for the fact that some members of his staff have taken advantage of the Calder Act. If men who had been in the service for twenty-five or thirty years, and who were not under the provisions of the old Superannuation Act which obtained prior to 1896, had not taken advantage of the Calder Act, they would have had to make a return of five per cent of their salaries to come under tlie new Superannuation Act. Their retirement is not the fault of the minister of any department. I know of men in the Engineering Branch of the Department of Public Wofiks having been tmnsferred from London, Ontario, to Nova Scotia to take engineering positions. Several of us did not like that, but it was done. The minister could) not do anything else. But do not blame any minister for the rotten system which has grown up in this country ever since confederation, undter which every membeT wants to place friends in the service. I think the propeT way is to take the different items, whether for public works or anything else, and1 discuss each upon its merits. Let some hon. member put a resolution on the order paper which will go to the root of the whole matter; let us have a field dlay, laying aside all our party prejudices and party affiliations, and see if we cannot arrive at some method whereby we can have an efficient civil service without increasing the cost to the people, and1 wherever possible get clear of those officials who are not necessary. Because a man has been in the civil service ten, fifteen or twenty years, is no reason whatever why he should be superannuated. The country owes him nothing; he took the job of his own volition. Often, as I have already said, he takes his superannuation and then goes out and competes with other men, knowing he has the country behind him for sometimes four, five, six or seven thousand dollars a year. For instance, I db not think a judge, after he gets superannuation should be able to hold any other public office in this country.


Mr. HOCKEN:: What about a deputy
minister?


Lewis Herbert Martell: He is in the same
category. I contend that any man who has taken advantage of superannuation on account of ill-health, age or any other reason should not be permitted to enter public service again. We had/ experience of that in the Minister of Justice of the late administration.


Mr. CARROLL:: I wish to say to my
hon. friend from Hants (Mr. Martel 1) that members do not get salaries, they get indemnities.


Lewis Herbert Martell: In my own case and
that of my friend (Mr. Carroll) it is only salary for a little lost time, and then it does not half pay us. I contend that the public owe no man a living, and no man has a right to be a sponger upon his fellow citizens. Any man who can do an honest day's work with brain or hand can earn a living in this country. It may not be an excellent living, but it all depends upon the ability andi energy of the individual. But, coming back to the point, why attack one minister because of certain things over which he has absolutely no control? I agree with my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens), and I speak from experience. In the civil service there are tots of hard-working, honest, upright men and women who are prepared to work from nine in the morning to twelve at night, if necessary, to carry on their duties; I can point out such people in the Department of Marine and Fisheries. But I have seen officials who simply wrote out checks or put letters in envelopes, for which they drew $2,500 or $3,000 a year, watch the clock and at the proper time take their canes in hand and walk away, andl half the day they were considering how they could agitate for more salary. That is the type of civil servant we have to get after. If no one else will do so, I will place a resolution on the order paper so that we may have a field day and discuss the subject thoroughly. In the meantime do not let us condemn a minister for a system that he did not create.


Mr. HOEY:: Has the minister power to
dismiss civil servants, provided he is convinced that his department is over-staffed? If so, is such procedure often followed?


John Warwick King: Where retirements have occurred we have tried not to refill the positions. If a deputy minister finds his department over-staffed and recommends to the minister that it be reduced, the minister would send his deputy's recommendation to the commission. The commission, I have no doubt, after investigation, would accept the recommendation.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Mr. Chairman, I do not understand that my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) is making an attack upon the Minister of Public Works,-


John Warwick King: I do not think so.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: -but he is drawing the attention of the committee to a situation which I think ought to be ventilated. There could not be a more severe indictment of the civil service than we have had from t h'
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member for Hants (Mr. Martell), and he speaks as one haying knowledge and experience, he speaks from the inside of the service and tells the House and the country what we all know, and what the country suspects rather than knows, that a considerable proportion of the civil service in this city are simply time-killers, drawing their checks and doing mighty little in return.
One of the things I object to most has been referred to by my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre, and it touches the point raised by the hon. member for Brandon (Mr. Forke). He says: Let us get politics out of the civil service. Why, Mr. Chairman, there is more politics in the civil service than there is in the Liberal party, the Farmer's party or the Conservative party. There are men in the civil service who are playing politics all the time. I do not mean party politics.


Lewis Herbert Martell: They are playing their
own politics.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Yes, and they get around them certain groups. One deputy minister says to another, "You help me here and I will help you there." Another says, " I am not getting what I should get; cannot we form some association and boost ourselves?" There is more politics in the service than in this House, in my judgment. I have seen what my hon. friend refers to-a man having charge of a branch will build it up with an unnecessarily large staff in order that he may be able to say to his minister, " Why, I have so much responsibility, I have ten people to look after." But perhaps his whole staff are simply supernumeraries, they should not be there, and if he were an energetic and faithful civil servant they would not be there. Everybody is boosting his salary. I do not think the Minister of Public Works can accomplish a reform here. If reform is to be achieved it must be undertaken by all the ministers of the government working together; the government as a body must decide on clearing out unnecessary officials, and to do this they must go through the service ruthlessly. By that I do not mean that they are to deal unjustly with any civil servant; but they should cease filling vacancies. I suggested in this House four years ago that the government of that day-which is not the government of to-day-should declare a holiday in appointments for three years. I think that could have been done then, and I think it can be done now. Whenever there is a position to be filled, with perhaps some rare exceptions in the case of highly technical help being required, a member of the sendee

can be transferred to it if it is absolutely necessary to fill the vacancy. In the course of a couple of years you would reduce the sendee by about a thousand at least and you would save a large sum of money. I have had a question on the order paper for a month and have not yet been able to get an answer: I want to know how many appointments were made by the Civil Service Commission in 1924. That should not be a difficult question to answer, but it would be very interesting information for the House to have. I do not know when the question is going to be answered-


Robert Alexander Hoey: Does the hon. member mean
new men coming into the service?


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Yes. The question I have on the order paper is as follows:
How many appointments were made to the civil service of Canada by the Civil Service Commission during the calendar year 1924?
I propose to get an answer to that question if it can be had. I know that a good many hon. members to my left

not many across the way, I am sure-have a high opinion of the value of the Civil Service Commission. I think it is a waste of money. I said that when I think I was the only member on my side of the House who said so. But everything I predicted about that commission has been fulfilled. They can remain in existence only by making appointments; the more appointments they make, the more work they can show they are doing. Their whole interest, their permanence, really, as part of the civil service of Canada, rests upon the making of new appointments. Why should they not make appointments? Why should they not be one of the influences that are making for filling up instead of cutting down?


Mr. SHAW:: When the hon. member speaks of filling up, making appointments, does he mean that the Civil Service Commission have the right to create positions?


Horatio Clarence Hocken: No. It comes back to this: here in the service they are playing politics. The Civil Service Commission wants to stay in business. The commission and their staffs have great influence with the deputy ministers, assistant deputy ministers, senior clerks and all the rest. These people owe something to the Civil Service Commission, and the influence that is working is upon every deputy minister and assistant deputy minister to ask that appointments be made here, there and everywhere, which gives a job to the Civil Service Commission and enables it to stay in business. We are spending over $300,000 on that commission.

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Archie Latimer Hodgins: I think the hon. member
makes a mistake in offering all these suggestions in public.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Well, it is not the first
time I have made them in public. I do not know just what my hon. friend objects to.
I am stating what I believe to be the facts.


Archie Latimer Hodgins: They will follow the suggestions.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Follow what suggestions?


Archie Latimer Hodgins: The commission and the different departments are following your suggestions.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: If my hon. friend1 knew
the Civil Service Commission he would not be under the impression that they needed any suggestions from toe; they can give me cards and spades and beat me even then. I say it was a mistake to appoint them. As long as you have the commission an existence you are not going to be able to cut out the unnecessary timber in the civil service. What is required in connection with the civil service is pruning. We ought to have a prime minister of the same courage as the president of the United States who says he is going to reduce the cost of government in that country; he is going to start at the beginning and make an impression right from the start. The president is reported to have stated that he is going to cut the cost of the service to a sum that will make the taxation in that country $25 per capita, while in Canada it is $47 per capita. If that does not give the members of the government cause for serious consideration, then I think it ought to. This country cannot pay twice the taxation that is being paid across the border and hope to compete with that country. The thing to do with the civil service is to reduce the expenditure by about $10,000,000. I have not gone into the figures so as to be able to say to what extent it can be reduced, but I am satisfied it can be cut much to the advantage of the country. We had this Civil Service Commission go through the service and classify every job. Well, how did that work out? This way. Here is a man who was classified as junior clerk. He gets everybody he can-his superiors, and those on the commission-to work to have him advanced a stage. He gets up to senior clerk, then he wants to be special clerk or assistant to the assistant-assistant to the deputy's assistant. There is no stopping place for a man of that type in the service, but there is a stopping place for the man who is intent upon his work and is doing it instead of simply trying to boost his own salary and to do as 54
little work as he can. The politician in the civil service is the man who does not work and who is always pulling somebody's leg to get something more for himself. And, of course, every case of that kind is taken up by the commission, it is investigated and reported upon, and that all bulks largely in the work of the commission and adds to its superficial importance. I think a committee of the cabinet, perhaps associated with the deputy ministers, could reduce this service enormously, could get rid of the drones and put it on a better basis. You would get rid of the drones if they were in your business. No other business could be carried on the way the government of Canada is carried on.


John Warwick King: Two years ago
there was a meeting of the full cabinet with the deputy ministers and the Civil Service Commission and the suggestions my hon. friend is making were made then to the head of each department. They were impressed with the extreme necessity of reductions wherever possible.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Perhaps the minister will
show us what the result was.


John Warwick King: It will be shown. This discussion is foreign to the vote, and the vote under which it would be in order will come up later. However, I have no objection; this will be merely a wanning-up for the main discussion.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I cannot see that any
good results have followed, according to the estimates which are before us to-day. If there is any reduction in the. civil service it ought to show in the amount of money that is paid for that service, and if it does not show, then the conference must have been futile. The point that has been raised to-day is, I think, well worth the time that has been spent upon it. I hope the hon. member for Hants (Mr. Martbll) will carry out his promise to bring in a resolution dealing with the whole question so that we may thresh it out fully.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: While it may not be strictly in order, I do agree with the hon. member (Mr. Hocken) that no subject is of more significance to the people of Canada than that of the civil service. Anybody who has the least acquaintance with the facts will readily admit that not only is there considerable overmanning in the public service, but, what is perhaps even more important, there is overlapping as between departments. The system we are following at present is a somewhat complicated one. We have a Civil Service Commission appointed for the purpose of in-
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quiring into the abilities of individuals to fill positions, and also charged with the duty of filling those positions. They have the power to determine qualifications, and likewise the power of appointment. They have absolutely nothing to do with the creation of new positions nor with the elimination of existing positions; the duty of creating or eliminating positions in the public service rests entirely with the cabinet council.


Harold Putnam: Has the commission no
power to advise on that?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: They may have power to
advise, but they have no power to act on those questions. It appears that while the commission have the power of appointment, they have not the power to discharge; that power rests entirely with the council. Two years ago we had an opportunity in a committee of considering this very important matter, and I think everyone was impressed with the necessity of doing something, because it was realized that a very substantial amount of money would be saved to the people of Canada if overmanning and overlapping in the service could be prevented. I made one suggestion to the committee and I want to offer it to the House. Sometimes we cannot be a lamp unto ourselves, but there is no reason why we should not borrow a little oil sometimes from neighbouring institutions. There has developed of recent years in the United States a form of government for municipalities known as the business manager system. It has given satisfaction, and it is being rapidly established in some of the largest cities in America. Indeed, some of our own cities in Canada have adopted that plan. Now, is it not possible to make a proper adaptation of that plan to the civil service of Canada? I think it is. If I understand the constitution aright, the general manager of the services of Canada, including the civil service, is the Prime Minister of this country; that is his particular task. But, owing to the fact that he is charged with large problems of state and problems of policy, it is impossible for him to give to the civil service, for example, the detailed consideration that is necessary. Suppose, for example, that he delegated that function to a business manager or general manager who had supervision over the entire civil service, who had complete and final authority not only to eliminate overmanning, but also to prevent overlapping in the departments;-and when I speak of overlapping let me illustrate what I mean. I do not know that this situation now exists; I know it existed two or three years ago. Take the important 
public service of dredging. That was carried on two years ago by three departments of government, the Public Works department, the Marine and Fisheries department, and the Railways and Canals department. Each department has certain jurisdiction, in the St. Lawrence river. The St. Lawrence ship channel, the middle of that river, up and down which ocean ships come and go, is dredged by the Marine and Fisheries department. From the boundaries of the channel to the boundaries of the river on either side the dredging is done by the Public Works department; whereas the harbours are dredged by the Railways and Canals department. Now what business organizations would tolerate a situation of that kind for a single moment?


John Warwick King: The Railways
and Canals department would dredge only harbours connected with railway terminals, and so forth.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Quite right. I take it the
harbours connected with the railwiays would be dtedged by the Railways and Canals department.


John Warwick King: Only those in
which they have a direct interest.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: They would have a direct
interest, for instance, in the harbour of Quebec and in the harbour of Montreal.


John Warwick King: They would not
do any dredging there.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Probably not, but I have
given two departments that do dredging in connection with the St. Lawrence river. I have heard that these three departments met at Port Nelson on Hudson bay to do dredging up there. Each found themselves armed with authority from their department, and each department refused to let the other department do the work, and the result was the work was not done that year. I do not know what truth there is in that statement, but in any event the example I have given will illustrate my point. Here are three departments with three sets of officials and three groups of equipment, all for the one purpose of dredging. Why should not one department alone be charged with that service? There would be a great deal saved not only in the way of eliminating overmanning, but also by preventing overlapping were that suggestion adopted. Now my suggestion is this, that we should have a general manager of the service, a man charged with the task of preventing all appointments of additional unnecessary men, a man who has

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absolute authority not only over departments but also over deputy ministers, and who would be responsible to cabinet in council, in fact, be the delegate of the Prime Minister to carry out the duties of the general manager of the civil service. That I think is something that we should seriously consider, and I think it is a matter that we can, without any political consideration arising, fairly consider in addition, of course, to any other plans for the purpose of remedying this situation. Now I am frank to admit that if the civil service commissioners had been able to establish themselves in the confidence of the people of this country, it would be the logical body which should undertake that work. I want to say now that so far as the theory of the Civil Service Act is concerned, I am in hearty accord. There are two vital principles that we must not forget in the creation of that act; one is the application of the merit principle to positions in the public service; it is essential that political patronage be eliminated. The merit system should apply so that those who are best qualified will get the positions that are vacant.


Mr. LOVETT:: How would you apply that to minor positions in the country?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I can only tell my hon.
friend that in the United States they have not any difficulty in applying that system even to the lowest-paid service, and apparently they are applying it with satisfaction.


Lewis Johnstone Lovett: How could that be done?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: If you will give me the position you want filled, I will indicate how it is done. I do say that the merit principle is fundamental. The second principle involved in connection with the operation of the Civil Service Act is that an independent body, a non-partisan body, a body freed from political control, should have the carrying into effect of the merit principle. Now, I am frank to admit, that in my humble judgment the civil service commissioners have failed in their duty, and I think they are chargeable before the people of this country for their failure to properly apply these two principles. I do not hesitate to say to hon. members of this House that I had thought that probably the proper thing to do was to present a resolution before the House advocating the discharge of these commissioners. But the failure of these officials to perform their duties is altogether different from saying that the merit system should not apply. I think in the Civil Service Act a mistake was made in appointing three commissioners. I think only one should 54i
have been appointed, and this country should have been searched high and low in order to get an individual to fill that position who would have commanded the confidence and the esteem of this country. I think that in the application of the merit principle to the services of Canada we made a very sad mistake at the outset in restricting ourselves to political considerations in filling these high positions.


Air. MacLEAN (Prince):: How would you apply the merit system to the outside service where a competitive examination is really a matter of form, and where one man is just as well qualified to fill a vacant position as another?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: If my hon. friend thinks there should be a separate test applied-for example to an audit clerk who wants a position in Ottawa-I think he is entirely mistaken. If a test is necessary it should be applicable all over the country, and not restricted to applicants for positions in the city of Ottawa alone.


Alfred Edgar MacLean: My hon. friend has not grasped my point. I did not refer to such positions as audit clerks, bookkeepers, and the like; I was referring to lighthouse keepers, lock tenders, or occupations of that kind throughout the country, in regard to which my hon. friend must admit the qualifications of one man are just as good as those of another. I do not see that the merit system would be of any benefit in such cases, and to put in force a costly and elaborate system of competitive examinations for the selection of men to fill these positions is entirely unnecessary. I should like my hon friend to give us his opinion on that point.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: There must be ten or twelve thousand such positions that are entirely exempted from the provisions of the Civil Service Act.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No, no.


Lewis Johnstone Lovett: Anything below $200.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Anything below $200 is exempted from the provisions of the act but positions carrying with them a higher wage are subject to the Civil Service Commission.


James Dew Chaplin: The hon. member (Mr. Maclean, Prince) gave a concrete example of the class of cases he has in mind. He referred to the position of lock tender, and there are possibly one hundred lock tenders in my county. Would the hon. member kindly state what qualifications the Civil Service Commission have for making these appointments?

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Joseph Tweed Shaw: I must say that I do not know what a lock tender's duties are. If they are of an engineering character there would be no difficulty in determining by competitive examination the fitness of the applicant for the post. If it is merely a labourer's position my suggestion is that the Civil Service Commission adopt the plan which is followed in many states of the American Union: Simply have some qualified official, already in the public service, decide the fitness of a particular individual for any task however minor it may be.


Sir EUGENE FISET:: What about hon.
members?


Joseph Tweed Shaw: I think hon. members should ask to be excused from all such duties. As I understand a member's duty he is not elected for the purpose of filling minor positions in the public service, nor, for that matter, any position. It is his duty to come here and represent the wishes of his constituents so far as legislation is concerned. He should not be saddled up with additional work which not only interferes with that duty, but makes it impossible for him to properly function in the position to which he has been elected.


Alfred Speakman: What I had intended
to say has been well covered already by Other speakers. However, I should like to stress one phase of the question. We have heard a good deal about the necessity for a reduction in the number of public employees. I am absolutely convinced of the necessity for such a reduction. But what are we to do in the face of the situation I am going to describe. Let me give an illustration, it will be very familiar to every hon. member. As I drew my mail from the post office box this morning I pulled out a couple of familiar brown envelopes. I think we receive practically every day a brown envelope sent out by the Civil Service Commission containing a notice asking for applications for men who will take examinations for a certain position. These requests come pretty nearly every day, all the year round; the commission is continually flooding us with these notices. What does it mean? It means that every year, every month, every day the people of this country are being invited to apply for entrance into the civil service. Now, in view of the fact that the ministers are continually making the statement-and in 5 p.m. many instances the statement is correct-that reductions in the service are being carried out, and that there are so many fewer employees in individual departments, I wonder what becomes of the thousands of misguided applicants who seek

admission into the public service? What happens to them after they take their examination? Does it mean that notwithstanding the protests on the part of the members of the government, notwithstanding the express desire of the House itself, notwithstanding the growing intensity of feeling throughout the country for the practice of economy, the civil service is actually increasing and growing all the time? I think a very sound suggestion has been made that for two or three years the issuance of these brown envelopes shall cease, and that if men are required in a particular department the proper officers in that department shall go to another branch of the public service and say "Can you spare us a man, because the law will not permit us to bring another person into the service?" I believe that would be the soundest way to proceed. I realize the difficulty of saying to a man who has been in the service of the country for many years "You are no longer necessary, you must go;" but nevertheless through deaths, sickness and retirements it is possible to reduce the number of appointments, and I would suggest that we should make a hard-and-fast rule for a certain time that these brown envelopes should stay at home, and that no more applications for admission to the service shall be sought for that period and no more admissions permitted. Let us try that system, and also endeavour to fill vacancies necessary to be filled by transfers from other departments.


Mr. LADNER:: I have a word to add to
the discussion in the way of a suggestion. The matter is of interest to the country generally, and if you ask citizens at large what they think of the public expenditure along this line they will ask "Why is not something done?" But the system complained of goes on year after year and nothing is done. I am told by a certain person who is an authority on these matters-I do not claim to be an authority myself-that one method that would be helpful in the reduction of expenditures would be along this line-I think perhaps the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) may have referred to it:	When
positions need to be filled supernumeraries should be transferred from departments where the volume of business is less than it formerly was. I am told that the work of some departments was quite extensive years ago necessitating the employment of a certain number of men, but of recent years the business has fallen off and! yet the same sized staff is maintained althrough in certain cases the men are no longer needed. I suggest that those men Who are drawing their salary and

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doing little or nothing should be placed on a supernumerary list, or some special list, and when vacancies occur in other departments they should be filled by appointments from this list after the proper examination required by the civil service has been passed. The hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Hocken) has truly said that we can well declare a holiday for three years in the matter of additions to the public service, just as we could declare a holiday in many governmental expenditures. Because the need for economy is urgent and has been urgent for some years. We must have a reduction in the public expenditures when many people are practising the strictest economy in their private affairs and even undergoing actual privation. Surely it is time for the government to make a real advance and show the country that they are in earnest in practising economy not only in this department but in all the other branches of the public service.
The other day I had occasion, during the progress of the estimates of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell), to examine previous estimates and the Auditor General's reports. In a very large number of items one finds each year an increase. Surely these increases can be stopped, and the government is the body to take that course. The person chiefly responsible for taking the initiative in that work is, of course, the minister. I am not saying that in this case the Minister of Public Works has had sufficient opportunity _ to do that, but in many departments the ministers can take that step. I make these few remarks, because I believe that in doing so I am voicing the thoughts of ninety-five per cent of the citizens of my constituency and, indeed, of my province.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Would the hon. member be in favour of scrapping the whole Civil Service Act and the Civil Service Commission and starting out anew?


Leon Johnson Ladner: No, I would not. I am
not one of those who believe you can create something after a great deal of thought and work, and then, in some fit of mental aberration, wipe it out entirely and create some new structure. That is what they tried to do in Russia and they failed. We have an existing institution which has a great deal of merit. It has made some reforms which have been of advantage to the country. In my judgment, the proper course to take is to correct the deficiencies of this institution as we have it. By experience they can learn where the weak spots are, and by aggressive action on the part of those in control, they can eliminate the weak spots, transform them by strong methods,
and enable the commission to carry on the work. Let us keep the structure that we have, develop it, build it up and make it more efficient, so that it can, perhaps, effect greater economies.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: I find myself much in harmony with the hon. member (Mr. Ladner) in regard to the civil service. Our aim and object should be to develop rather than to destroy. The Civil Service Commission was created on account of a desire for it in the country. The change of officials with every election was something that the people of Canada were heartily sick of. There was a point, I believe, that was missed by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman) when he spoke of this continual deluge of brown envelopes. Most of those competitive examinations mean simply a readjustment within the service itself, and the elimination of those would be one of the first things to destroy confidence in the whole system. For instance, a man may be working in the Customs department, and a position is opened up in the Department of Finance. Supposing this man who is looking for promotion is entitled to that, it is only through a competitive examination that promotions and readjustments can be effected in the civil service. The question has been asked here this afternoon who should appoint men in the outside civil service, such men as those attending the locks on our canals. I would say that the only official to appoint them would be the man under whom they are working, the man responsible for their actions. Take, for example, the position of postmaster. There is no competitive examination for the position of postmaster. But the matter is left, in almost every case of which I have known, to the post office inspector of the district, the man who should know the necessary qualifications, the man who visits the district. If there are four, five or six applicants, as there are in most cases, he will interview the men, find out something about their educational qualifications, their ordinary business ability, their standing in the community from the point of view of integrity and in other regards, and he will make his recommendation to his department. Those recommendations are forwarded to the Civil Service Commission, and in every case I have had occasion to look into, the recommendation of the post office inspector has been accepted by the commission. That is perfectly right. The Civil Service Commission is subject to a good deal of criticism from the fact that many sections of the country want the old party privileges again,
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patronage and nothing else. I would like to see some members come out more frankly and state what is in the back of their minds, because I think that is what it is.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Can the hon. member
show that, as a result of the Civil Service Commission, better or more efficient men have been appointed to office than was the case when they were recommended by members of parliament, representative of either of the two old parties in this country?


Milton Neil Campbell: That would be impossible. If I quoted figures, the hon member for Hants would not accept them. Naturally, he would think the man 'whom he was responsible for recommending would be more efficient than the other.


Harold Putnam: Nobody expects figures.


Milton Neil Campbell: It is impossible to deal with a technical question like that, but I believe public opinion on the whole throughout the country endorses the principle of the Civil Service Commission. It may be that the commission is not perfect, indeed, we know it is not, and I believe a good deal of politics is played within the Civil Service Commission as the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Hocken) has just said. I believe very frequently where they want a certain man in a particular position, he is put in temporarily and is given an opportunity to become acquainted with the duties of that office, and by and by, after six or nine months, when a competitive examination is called, he certainly is in a preferred position. Other men coming along may be better qualified in other respects, but naturally, as he has a definite knowledge of the technical duties of the office, they are not in the same position to compete in the examination. Many faults can be found with the Civil Service Commission in that regard, but I believe public opinion, on the whole, throughout the country, is in favour of the principle of the Civil Service Commission. And my knowledge is not entirely confined to the west; I find the same feeling at Ottawa.
I find it in my home in the Maritime provinces. I have never been in Hants county; the same feeling may not exist there.


Lewis Herbert Martell: I am afraid the hon.
member has not visited very much in Canada, even in his own province of Prince Edward Island, but if he comes to Hants, I will show him that we believe in the old-fashioned system of patronage.


Milton Neil Campbell: I congratulate the hon. member for Hants on being frank; the trouble is that too many hon. members are not. Speak-

ing for public opinion in this country as I know it, I believe it is behind the principle on which the Civil Service Commission was based. Let us get behind the principle. If there is anything wrong with the commission, instead of destroying it and throwing it overboard, let us make it our aim and object to improve it. That, I think, we can accomplish.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: There is only one way in which the Civil Service Commission can test any man's qualifications, that is his educational qualifications. They do not know anything about his integrity. They have to get that somewhere else.


Milton Neil Campbell: They require of every
applicant three testimonials as to his integrity.


Harold Putnam: He will admit it himself.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I know a man who has
been in every jail in his county, and he was able to get the necessary testimonials and receive a position under the Civil Service Commission.


Milton Neil Campbell: Would that not prevail under the patronage system to the same, if not to a greater extent? I can cite many examples of what is going on in my own province to-day under the patronage system.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: If any man has to be
careful about recommending for a position a person whose integrity is at fault, it is the member of parliament. The man I mentioned was appointed in spite of the complaint of the member representing that riding who came to Ottawa and gave the man's record to the commission. No member of parliament could or would recommend a man like that. To do so would be as much as his seat was worth. But if a member of parliament recommends a man to the Civil Service Commission, that one fact damns the man for the job. I do not know whether my hon. friend knows it, but I happen to know thlat when the act was first introduced into this House, it contained a clause stating that any man who was recommended by a member of parliament should, by that fact, be disqualified.


Mr. LEWIS:: Is that in the act still?


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I do not think that is in the act now. The members of this House were able to swallow a good deal at that time, but they could not swallow that. That was cut out, but the principle of the clause is still operative, and if a member of parliament recommends a man to the Civil Service Commission, unless he has gone round some circuitous way-and there are circuitous

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ways-bis recommendation, instead of having any good effect for the applicant, destroys his chances of getting the appointment.


Arthur John Lewis: Does that apply to the government side too?


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I think I may leave that
to my hon. friends opposite. I just want to make the one point, that the Civil Service Commission, which tallks about the merit system, has only one standard by which to try a man, i,nd that is his educational qualifications, and I have known men who could pass any educational test placed before them, but not a man in the community would trust them with a fifty-eent piece. There are men like that in any community of any size. After all, what is the supreme qualification for a civil servant? Is it not integrity? I do not care how ably a man can pass an educational test, if he has not integrity he should not be in that job at all, and that is something the commissioners are compelled to leave to the man's friends.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Is it not the case that
many men who pass the highest examination are the poorest in their work? Sometimes men pass a very poor examination, on account of having less education, but from a practical and administrative standpoint are far superior to the men who pass a good examination.


Arthur John Lewis: Does that apply to the law examination as well?


Lewis Herbert Martell: Certainly. I have known honour men to make very poor barristers. My remark would also apply to theologians; sometimes the greatest theologians are the poorest preachers.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: My hon. friend speaks from the inside, and I have no doubt he has cases in his mind where that applies, and everybody knows it. It is one thing to pass an educational test, as any schoolboy could do, and it is another matter to have experience and judgment to fill an office properly. My hon. friend talks about specifications required for the civil service. Let me give an instance which happened about two years ago which would indicate the policy of the commission. They advertised for a chief filing clerk at a certain salary, and they wrote a specification which said that the applicant must have two years' experience as filing clerk in a government office. There was only one man in Canada who could fill this specification, and the specifications were written for him. He got the job. The thing was framed up for him, and that can be done by the commission
and has been done by the commission in more instances than one.


Milton Neil Campbell: That is one of the
reasons why I wanted it corrected1.


Harold Putnam: I am a little doubtful whether this sitting of the House has developed into an experience meeting, or an at home. I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Campbell) upon his unique courage. He is the only man who would justify in toto the Civil Service Commission.


Milton Neil Campbell: I want to correct the hon. member. I pointed out there were undoubtedly weaknesses in the Civil Service Commission and I wanted to see them corrected.


Harold Putnam: Does he favour that change which removes from the Civil Service Commission the appointment where the salary is less than $200.


Milton Neil Campbell: I cannot say. There are a good many at less than that and there are a great many included in the outside service at $900. I cannot say whether I included them in that statement. The appointment of rural postmasters may perhaps not be considered an important matter, but it is left to the inspector in the district.


Harold Putnam: The answer is verbose but modest. The effect of it is that he does not know. There has been a great deal said in this House in disapproval of the Civil Service Commission, and when the attention of the country is so focused upon it, I would remind the House at large, and the country also, that it was this administration which cut out hundreds of the idiosyncracie3 of the Civil Service Commission by exempting from its jurisdiction all those positions where the salary was not above $200. If I spoke of experience in my own constituency, I would say,-I have no hesitation whatsoever in saying,-that that Was a distinct movement in the direction of common sense and in the direction of economy, with no loss of efficiency, to put it very mildly. Those brown envelopes which have been referred to no longer come trailing through the mails, with respect to little appointments of that class. I call attention of the hon. member for Mackenzie to the absurdity of saying that the salary of the amount of $205 commands a man who must be appointed by the Civil Service Commission of Ottawa, when he is not sure that a man might not properly be recommended for the job by a member of
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parliament if the pay does not exceed the $200 mark. That is one of the wretched burlesques of the whole civil service. I hope that, inasmuch as this administration has taken from the red tape of the civil service these small jobs commanding not more than $200, which in the estimation of the hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Shaw) number thousands, I hope they will proceed a little further in their good works. I am disappointed that they have not already made a better contrast with the work which had been done by their predecessors in this matter of the Civil Service Commission.


Henry Herbert Stevens: While my original observations on this vote certainly did not go as far afield as many other remarks which have been made, nevertheless the discussion is one which I am sure will have some benefit and will be very informative to the public as well as to many members of the House. I approach this question with a desire to do something practical. I was upbraided and reprimanded very mildly by one or two hon. members because I brought the question up at this particular time. Let me say in justification that I applied on one or two occasions to the Civil Service Commission, I have applied to the Statistical branch, I have applied to two or three departments, for information, and this is what I have been told in the different answers that I have received. There is a proper time to get complete information about the whole of the civil service, about the number of retirements or the number of employees, even in different branches or different departments. Then some of the departments have refused to make returns. They did not specify to me what these departments were. I asked in the House two years ago for information along this line, and I was forced to this position: that as each department's returns come before the House we must question the minister in order to secure information. If the leader of the government were here I would address this request to him, but in his absence I address myself to the minister in charge, the Minister of Public Works, whose estimates are now before us. Will he ask his colleagues to have prepared and laid on the table of the House within the next few days a complete statement showing the number of employees in the different departments, the number who have been retired from the different departments, and a complete statement of the conditions of the employees of the government in Ottawa, at least at this time, numerically, and so far as the distribution of finances is concerned, in-

eluding the retirements and the condition of these retirements?


John Warwick King: I am under the
impression, Mr. Chairman, that such a statement has already been filed. If it is not complete I will certainly bring it to the attention of the Prime Minister so that the necessary directions may be given. There is no desire to withhold information, but I understood yesterday there was a report from the commission.


Henry Herbert Stevens: It is not before the House.


John Warwick King: It was.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I tried to get it. I wanted to study the whole statement, but I was told there were certain departments, which were not specified, that had refused to file particulars with the Civil Service Commission.


John Warwick King: I will make inquiries.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Before we branched off
into the general discussion, I was pointing out to the minister that a system should be adopted in his own department, as between branches, to utilize, the services generally of the lower branches of clerks, stenographers and so forth. For instance, in the architect's branch there may be a pressure of clerical work in getting out plans for some buildings, whereas a number of clerks in some other branch may be comparatively idle. Now, what I complain of is that the personnel of that comparatively idle branch is kept up. Some hon. member stated there have been reductions in the number of civil servants. But the test I applied throughout my remarks was the test of dollars and cents, and after all that is the only way in which we can reflect economy correctly, it is the only way at least by which the taxpayer will appreciate economy. Let me say in reply to some reproof pointed in my direction in regard to this discussion, that I know of no other place where we can properly discuss this question than right here and right now. After all, it is not what some previous government has done, the government of my right hon. leader, the government of Sir Robert Borden or the government of Sir Wilfrid Laurier; the point is that the government today are responsible for the practical administration of affairs, and it is to them that we must look for results if ne are to expect anything definite.


John Warwick King: With regard to
mobility within the service, there is to-day a certain rigidity, largely due to the classifica-
..jm

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tion laid down by the commission. That was brought about by the introduction of experts to go into the affairs of the civil service. A few moments ago it was suggested that the government should have a business manager. The man on the street will read that and say, "It sounds fine." But in actual practice it would not work out.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: Why not?


John Warwick King: 
Robert James Manion: I have listened with a
good deal of interest to the discussion regarding the Civil Service Commission, and I rather draw from the minister's remarks the inference that he, to a certain extent at any rate, lays the blame for the size of the civil service on the Civil Service Commission.


John Warwick King: No.


Robert James Manion: At least I reached that
conclusion. However, I think there is too great a tendency on the part of the ministers generally to blame the Civil Service Commission for the statutory increases. I would point out what I think is correct, that after all the Civil Service Commission does not of itself enlarge the staff; it is enlarged by the Civil Service Commission iat the request of the minister in charge.


John Warwick King: That has been
admitted.


Robert James Manion: I think it advisable to
point that out, because there seems to be a tendency, perhaps not intentionally, to blame the Civil Service Commission for increasing the staff or holding the staff to the size that it has already reached. As a matter of fact,
I take the law to be that the Civil Service Commission hires a clerk or other employee for a department only iwhen go requested by the department.


Eugène Fiset: The Civil Service
Commission has the right to investigate ^ the demands of each department, and it is in a position to refuse those demands if it chooses to do so.


Robert James Manion: I admit that is correct.
But if the government is sincerely anxious to cut down the size of the various departments it does not need to ask the 'Civil Service Commission to act; it is primarily up to the minister in charge of -the department overstaffed if he wishes to lessen the number of his employees.


Eugène Fiset: But it remains with the commission to decide, and it is there for that purpose.


Robert James Manion: I think the matter remains entirely in the hands of the -minister himself. If he wants assistance in his department he cannot very well be refused by the commission.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: The hon. member for
Rimouski points out that the responsibility is on the Civil Service Commission to go into the departments and reclassify, eliminating positions if they find them unnecessary.


Eugène Fiset: I beg the -hon. gentleman's pardon. What I said was this: If a department makes application to the Civil Service Commission for a new position, the commission has the right to go into that department, investigate the demand that is made and decide whether or not the new position is necessary.


Joseph Tweed Shaw: The Civil Service Commission has no right to create positions.


Robert James Manion: Not only that; if, say,
the Minister of Public Works notified the Civil Service Commission that he wanted an officer to do certain work and the commission refused to make the appointment on the ground that it was not necessary, I am sure the minister, and properly so, would raise a pretty serious row with the commission. Even if the commission have the -power that my hon. friend refers to-and I do not doubt he is right

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-I question whether they would dare exercise it to the extent of refusing to make an appointment that a minister demanded.


Eugène Fiset: But that is exactly what has happened. In the classification of the service the commission objected to certain classifications recommended by the departments and the creation of certain positions, and the recommendations of the commission in that respect were in most cases accepted by the department concerned.


Robert James Manion: That is simply a question of the names given to the different classes of employees; it has not to do with reducing the number of employees. I notice that the number of employees in this department this year is 316; last year it was 320. What was the number for the previous year?


John Warwick King: In 1923-24 it was 326 as against 296 for 1922-23. The increase was accounted for by the bringing into the inside service of 38 employees who had previously been carried in other services and on other pay-rolls.


Robert James Manion: I am not questioning that.


Lewis Herbert Martell: That was the blanketing-in order in council?


John Warwick King: Yes.


Robert James Manion: The point is that the decrease is so infinitesimal that it really does not amount to a decrease at all.


John Warwick King: In 1911-12 it was 272 as against 278 this year, deducting the thirty-eight who were blanketed in.


Robert James Manion: There are six more to-day than there were in 1911-12, and I venture to say that there were more public works going on in this Dominion at that time than there are to-day.


John Warwick King: That is true.
But methods of business are entirely different to-day; more people are employed in office work than ever before, 'and that is true also of the commercial or business world. I think the comparison of the figures to-day with those of 1911-12 is fair and favourable to the department.


Robert James Manion: I am afraid I will have to question the minister's statement that in all walks of life there are more men doing the same work to-day than there were in 1911.


John Warwick King: In the commercial world, I mean.


Robert James Manion: I dlo not imagine that in the Canadian Pacific Railway Company's operations, for instance, more men are doing the same work to-day than were employed in 1911.


John Warwick King: In their offices,
yes.


Robert James Manion: Well, this is not only
offices.


John Warwick King: Yes, it is the inside service.


Robert James Manion: At any rate, I would point out that there is throughout the whole of this country a demand, and I think a just one, that we should cut down not only the expense of government but the national expenses generally, Dominion, provincial and municipal. There is a way of cutting down our civil service expenditure; perhaps it was suggested when I was out of the room. I do not believe we should go out into the different departments, and slash here, there and everywhere, put men out of work and increase the unemployment which unfortunately is worse at this time, to my mind, than it ever was in the country before. I am not blaming on the present government, the overloading of the civil service as it prevails in very many of the departments; all past governments permitted the civil service to be built up to a greater extent than it should have been. We cut down the number of employees in the Printing Bureau with good effect and there is no doubt that all the departments, or most of them, could be cut down with resulting improvement to the service and saving to the country.


Lewis Herbert Martell: How did the government cut down in 1911 when 11,060 Liberals who were dismissed were replaced by 33,000 Conservatives?


Robert James Manion: I do not know that that is the fact, and I shall not be able to discuss it, for that reason. I am not admitting that we did any such thing.


Lewis Herbert Martell: My hon. friend was a Liberal in those days.


Robert James Manion: Probably I would have agreed with my hon. friend in 1910-11 about that, if it occurred. I do not like to keep repeating to my hon. friend that I am getting wiser as I get older. My suggestion is that when a man retires, dies or otherwise leaves the sendee, let the positions remain as they are or fill them by transfer from some other department.

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John Warwick King: I think that is being done.


Robert James Manion: Well, I do not. I hope it is, but I cannot see it in any of the figures. The Postmaster General announced the other day that he had put in a lot of machines to cut down labour, but the fact is that the number of employees in his department has been increased. Certainly ,1 should think there were more than four superannuations or deaths in the Department of Public Works last year. The hon. member (Mr. Stevens) tells .me there were 12, so that the plan I suggest has not been carried out. We certainly could cut down the civil service gradually and work hardship to no one if we adopted this plan of filling vacancies by transfer from the same department or from other departments, and it might then be possible to establish the civil service upon something reasonably like the basis of strength of a private corporation. The minister says that is being done. Well, I hope a real attempt is being made to do it; at any rate, I think there should be a greater attempt than is shown in most of the departments. I admit that the minister's department shows a decrease, but in most of the other departments there appears to be an increase.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Not in mine.


Robert James Manion: Oh 'well, we could hardly expect an increase in his. But we will attend to the Minister of Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment in a few days.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I hope the hon. member will commend me for reducing my staff.


Robert James Manion: I hope there will be something upon which we can commend my hon. friend. I repeat that we should make a greater effort than is being made at the present time-and I say it in all sincerity- to cut down the expenses of government and in that way to reduce the very high taxation we have in this country.


Mr. EVANS:: That the Civil Service Commission has failed to gain the confidence of the people of the country has been due, I think, to other reasons than their inefficiency. It was noticeable at the first session of this parliament I attended that the Civil Service Commission were getting no sympathy or co-operation from the heads of government, not even from the deputy ministers. Indeed, I have known that from divisional heads the Civil Service Commission has met with opposition in carrying out its wishes. Now this is not as it should be. The hon. member for West Toronto has said that the
Civil Service Commission has no way of finding out an applicant's integrity or his standing in his own community. I can very well remember conditions as they were when the old patronage system was in full swing, and I can assure the hon. member that at that time men were placed in most responsible offices whose integrity to say the least was very questionable.


Mr. KELLNER:: Those are the men we
are superannuating now.


Lewis Johnstone Lovett: What happened to the
member appointing them?


John Evans: Often it is not the member
of parliament that makes the appointment. Can anyone say that I have the patronage in my constituency?


Lewis Johnstone Lovett: Did the member of parliament who appointed them win his election?


John Evans: If the member happened to be on the 'opposition side, he had no say in the patronage at all; it was not given to him. In fact, the Minister of Agriculture is the ruler of Saskatchewan to-day. But this is what I want- to tell the House:	I believe
that if the Civil Service Commission to-day had the sympathy of the heads of the government and of the divisional superintendents, and so on, we could make the commission the best system for appointments to the civil service that this country has ever seen. I want also to say ithat the people back in the country will not stand for the abolition of the Civil Service Commission just now.


Lewis Herbert Martell: Don't delude yourself.


Mr. ANDERSON:: I want to make a few remarks regarding the Civil Service Commission. I have been a great deal interested in the remarks that have already been made, and I agree with a large part of what has been said, though I am not in favour with the total abolition of the Civil Service Commission. That commission was appointed some years ago, and it has given' good service to the country, but I think its powers and privileges are altogether too wide, and that the outside service should never have been brought under it. In appointing officials to the outside service, the Civil Service Commission is utterly unable by a technical examination to find out who is the best qualified man for the position. They may be able to ascertain his educational qualifications, but they cannot possibly tell whether he has any ability in meeting the public, or whether he has any knowledge of the details of the department in which the vacancy occurs; nor can they tell anything

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about his integrity. They can only ascertain these things by applying to some person in the constituency where the appointment is to be made. Now under the terms of the Civil Service Act a member of parliament is forbidden to make any representations to the Civil Service Commission; I believe a member of parliament is prohibited under a penalty from making any representations to the icom-mittee with regard to any appointment. I believe that if he did make such representations, it would foe against the best interests of the applicant.


Milton Neil Campbell: Do I understand the
hon. gentleman to say that a member of parliament is prevented from making any representations in regard to appointments to the Civil Service Commission, and that there is a penalty under the act for so doing?


Robert King Anderson: There may not be a
penalty attached, but he is certainly prohibited from making any representations to the commission.


Milton Neil Campbell: Prohibited by statute or precedent?


Lewis Herbert Martell: There always was a provision in the act that no official of any department could in any way approach a member of parliament and ask his influence to be used in his promotion or anything else. That was in the old act.


Robert King Anderson: A member of parliament is also prohibited from making any representations to the commission regarding the appointment of any person.


Mr. EULER:: Is it not a fact that it was
understood at the outset after the 1918 act was passed that if a member of parliament did approach the civil service commissioners on behalf of any particular person, that person was not to be appointed at all? He was immediately ruled out of consideration. I think that was the intention, but I think it is not observed.


Robert King Anderson: I did not understand
that that was the intention, but I 'have not any doubt that that is one of the results of a member of parliament making representations to the commission. The commission is therefore compelled to apply to some person in the constituency where the appointment is to be made as to the character of the applicant. They must depend upon some person in the constituency who knows the applicant and can say whether or not he is a proper person to be appointed. The Civil Service Commission depend entirely on that, and sometimes they

apply to persons who are friends of the applicant, and who are desirous of seeing him appointed. The consequence is that the commission is very often misled, and the member for the constituency has very frequently to accept the responsibility for the appointment whether he recommended it or not. The public at large seem to think that he has some influence, and that it was through his influence the person got the appointment, and consequently they visit upon him the blame for a bad appointment. Now it is impossible for the commission to know whether a person is capable of meeting the public, whether he is courteous and efficient, or whether he is of good character, and the consequence is that many people are appointed who never should have been.
So far as the inside service is concerned, if you want a reorganization or readjustment made in the departments the one person who knows most about his department is the minister himself. He is the person who should be able to say whether the number of employees in his department can be cut down. He should be responsible for making such recommendations to the Civil Service Commission. He should do that, but under the act I believe he cannot.


Milton Neil Campbell: Has the minister not
that power? Also what would happen if the minister reduced his estimates after they were brought down to the House?


Robert King Anderson: He cannot reduce his
estimates until he has reduced the number of employees.


Milton Neil Campbell: If he provided in his
estimates for only a certain number of employees, would not the others automatically vanish?


Robert King Anderson: Not necessarily. They must receive their discharge first. If they are not eliminated from the department and the salaries are not paid where is the minister going to be?


Milton Neil Campbell: The minister is responsible for his estimates, and not the commission.


Robert King Anderson: The minister can discharge an employee but he cannot appoint one.


William Daum Euler: He can fire but not hire.


Robert King Anderson: I think the ministers
themselves should take in hand the matter of reducing the number of employees. If you want the civil service cut down, I think you must depend on the ministers at the

p
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head of the various departments to do it. One of the criticisms I have to make at the present time in regard to the public service is that while the number of employees in the various departments appears to be increasing the work itself is really decreasing. There is certainly a lack of efficiency somewhere. I think a large number of the civil servants in Ottawa are not fully employed during their working hours; they have a lot of time on their hands and can go out around the city when they should be at work. There should be more work provided for the employees in the public service, and greater efficiency should be required. It is up to the ministers at the head of the various departments to see that these requirements are fully met.


Mr. McBRIDE:: Does my hon. friend
know of one person in civil life who is not employing more men to do the same work than was the case ten years ago?


Robert King Anderson: That may be true.
We have very many more employees in Ottawa than we had previous to the war. The war rendered a lot of additional appointments necessary, and since the close of the war it has been very difficult to get rid of these extra employees. I understand perfectly the difficulty of the government in cutting down the number of additional employees which the war rendered necessary. Although the necessary work in the departments has diminished, it is really difficult to get rid of the extra employees.


Thomas George McBride: My hon. friend has not
answered my question, which referred to persons employed in private life. I know that in Vancouver previous to 1910 I had two persons in the office; now I have six.


Robert King Anderson: I answered my hon.
friend's question. I believe that is true in private life as well as in the government service.


Mr. SPENCER:: My hon. friend places
the entire responsibility for reducing the staff upon the members of the government. Does he not consider that some responsibility should rest upon the deputy ministers?


Robert King Anderson: The deputy minister,
of course, takes his orders from the minister.


Mr. BOYS:: I should like to be set right
in this matter. Assertions have been made indicating that it is not in order for a member of parliament as an individual to make a recommendation on behalf of his fellow citizen who is seeking a position in the public service. I should like to find out from the
minister if that is correct. I do not believe " it is correct. I have always understood that the member's right to make recommendations, as he used to make them, has been taken away; in other words, patronage has been abolished'. But it is absolutely news to me to hear that if a fellow citizen who is seeking a position goes to a member of parliament and asks him to certify to his ability, his integrity and so forth, the latter has no right to do so. I confess I have not done it many times but I have on a few occasions, I think probably six or seven in the last two or three years, written letters of this kind. I am not aware that I did anything wrong in so doing. If so, I should very much like to be put right; I should not like to do anything which was not right in this connection. Generally, as a member of parliament,
I do not do it; I know how useless it would be to entertain any hope of appointing a Tory in my riding; but I have thought that even with a government opposed .to me in politics in office that I could, perhaps, as a citizen, say a word occasionally on behalf of a fellow citizen as to his standing in the community and that it might have some little eff^t. In that capacity I have written a few times.


Mr. HUGHES:: To whom were the letters addressed?


William Alves Boys: The letters were addressed
to the Civil Service Commission.


James Joseph Hughes: And had they any effect?


William Alves Boys: Well, now, my hon. friend
is getting a little personal. However, I venture to say my letters have not had as much effect as some he has written.


James Joseph Hughes: Mine had no effect at all in favour of the applicant.


William Alves Boys: Then I venture to say that
my hon. friend has not been as insistent as some of those hon. members who sit beside him, and if he will just exercise a little more energy it will assist him to obtain better results.


William Daum Euler: May I ask the hon. member a question?


William Alves Boys: I do not wish to be diverted from my suggestion, but if my hon. friend will possess his soul in patience for a moment he will have an opportunity of putting his question and I will endeavour to answer it. I am really quite serious in wishing to find out from the minister, or from anybody in authority, if I am wrong in the action I took in this matter.
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John Warwick King: My hon. friend
is quite right. I understand that the act as originally drawn and introduced into the House did prohibit a member from taking such action, but it was amended and to-day it is the privilege of a member, if he so desires, to communicate with or see the commissioners and make such a recommendation. From what we have heard from hon. gentlemen to-day apparently they have not succeeded very well.


Robert James Manion: Will the minister promise
in the future to intercede on behalf of some of these letters we write?


Mr. BROWN:: As a matter of fact, when
an appointment is vacant the member for the constituency receives a special notice from the commission calling attention to the fact that the appointment is in his constituency.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock.
PRIVATE BILLS	%



[Stage Direction]
On the Order:
Second reading of Bill No. 18, respecting the Manitoba and Northwestern Railway Company of Canada.-Mr. Stewart (Humboldt).
Arthur Meighen: I do not know the effect of this bill, but if it is a bill of the significance that the title indicates, it should receive some attention at the hands of the government. May I ask the Minister of Railways and Canals or (whoever represents him what it means?
Motion stands.


CONCRETE SURFACING MACHINERY COMPANY
[Stage Direction]
On the Order:
Second reading of Bill No. 20, respecting a patent owned by the Concrete Surfacing Machinery Company. -Mr. Chevrier.
Arthur Meighen: This is the second reading, the important reading, and the Isponsor of the bill is not present. There is nobody in the government who knows anything about it.
Motion stands.


PRINTING IN ENGLISH AND FRENCH
Henry Herbert Stevens: Might I call attention to
the fact that some of these bills are not printed in both English and French according to the indications on the order paper?


Mr. SPEAKER:: Nos. 20 and 21 are printed in both languages.


James Arthurs: According to the order
paper that we have, they are not.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I think the difference is
that the Speaker read the numbers of the items, 20 and 21, and my hon. friend refers to the numbers of the bills. The first three bills, Nos. 17, 18, and 19, are printed in both languages. The last two, Nos. 20 and 21, are not.


Hewitt Bostock: The first three bills, Nos. 17, 18 and' 19 appear on the order paper as being printed in both languages. As to the other two, Nos. 20 and 21, I am informed by the Clerk that they are now printed in both languages and an indication to that effect was made on the sheet which I have.


SECOND READING
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 17, respecting the Alberta Railway and Irrigation Company-Mr. Jelliff.

[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Public works-
Salaries	 $614,655
Contingencies	 75,000

Arthur Meighen: When does the Calder
Act terminate, or has it terminated?


John Warwick King: It terminated in
October last. There are no more retirements under that act. Those who retired will continue, of course-


Arthur Meighen: Yes, I understand. The retirements now are under the Superannuation Act, and it looks as though the flock of retirements was multiplied under that act as compared with the Calder Act. Is that a fact?


John Warwick King: There have been none in the Department of Public Works this year. I could not say as to the other departments, but I think not-no, none in any of them, I am informed.


Arthur Meighen: There seems to have
been a great exodus in the last few months under the Calder Act. I see men walking around the streets of Ottawa here in the prime of life who have in the last few months taken advantage of the retirement provision. I cannot understand why the government allows those drawing salaries from the administration to multiply. Some of them I knew in the service, and I have in mind some who

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were certainly efficient a very short time ago, but they have been allowed to retire, and I presume are hoping, under a change of policy, to get a job in some other line of industry and draw the allowance as well. Of course at the present time there is no chance of that. Is the government considering economy now in any sphere except the relief of the unemployed and hungry?


John Warwick King: My hon. friend
could not have enjoyed his dinner. As far as my department is concerned there are no retirements this year. There were fifty-seven retirements in the years 1920 and 1921. It is true that as the act expired many men, especially aged men who would probably be well out of the department as far as their efficiency is concerned, did take advantage of retirements under that act, and, on account of their age and sickness, they were entitled to it. I know that was the strict application we made of the Calder Act.


Arthur Meighen: What about Mr. Drake,
of the Interior department? I know that is not in your department. If he has been ill, I have not heard of it, and I certainly would be surprised to learn that he was entitled to retire of his own free will, on account of age, because he is no older than I am. That is only one case that comes to my mind at the moment. What principle does the minister follow?


James Murdock: My hon. friend will recall that there was a considerable number of employees in the service who, undpr the Calder Act, could retire and secure benefits on retiring under proper conditions, whereas under the Superannuation Act those same men would not be able to retire at all and could not come under that act. Therefore, about the latter part of October last there was a considerable number of those who were old or ill, who did accept what appeared to be their privilege at that time, and chose to retire before October 31. If they had remained1 in the service they would have nothing in sight for themselves at the present time.


Arthur Meighen: It is not they I am thinking of so much as the treasury. I do not think I recollect the Calder Act wrongly, but if I recollect it rightly, no man had an absolute right to retire under it. The government was empowered under certain conditions to accept applications for retirement under that act, and I think rather that the government was empowered to retire arbitrarily of its own will under the act, but I do not think any man had a right to say: "Here, I am going to quit work and draw my allowance under the
act, no matter what the government thinks." Consequently the responsibility for the correctness of the age and other details of these retirements is on the government.


James Murdock: If they made an application for retirement, that went to the Civil Service Commission for consideration and approval, and then came to the minister of the department for approval, the minister to sign the form that was sent to him, already signed by the Civil Service Commission; but I have understood that the onus was largely upon the Civil Service Commission to determine if the claim made for retirement by individual employees was sufficient to justify them in agreeing to the retirement of the employee, and if they so decided the minister seemed to have nothing else to do but to O.K. that proposal of the Civil Service Commission and permit the retirement.


Arthur Meighen: I think the hon. minister is wrong to this extent: he intimates that all the minister had to do, once the Civil Service Commission certified as to the man's position, was to sign on the dotted line.


James Murdock: No; after the Civil Service Commission had determined as to his age or his physical condition as entitling him to retirement,-


Arthur Meighen: No, not entitling him at all. No man is entitled under the Calder Act to retire. I speak with some reserve, but very little. The Civil Service Commission would investigate his representations, and if they found them all right they would say so, and then it was for the minister to say, and I think subject to the approval of council, whether the retirement was actually allowed or not.


James Murdock: Yes.


Arthur Meighen: No doubt the responsibility was on the minister. The minister could plead and! produce any evidence to justify his jurisdiction, whatever was presented by the Civil Service Commission, of course. I cannot understand in the case I have mentioned how the minister could have justified the retirement of the man whose name I have given. I refer to Mr. Drake, a man anywhere between forty-five and fifty-five, an admirable official, appointed by the government previous to the last government; but now, unless he has got a position-and he would be very lucky if he got one just now- he is walking the streets under the Calder Act, and someone else is doing his work and getting the salary. That cannot be attributable to the Civil Service Commission but to this government.
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John Warwick King: I am not informed of that case. My hon. friend has special knowledge of it. But generally speaking the minister had, of course, discretion, but it went through a form, the application being made was referred to the Civil Service Commission who checked up the years of service and the age of the individual, the health condition, and that was all dealt with under their management, and then the matter came back to the ^minister and each case was considered.


Arthur Meighen: On its merits?


John Warwick King: On its merits. I
think that is the course we have been following.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister was asked
last night to supply a list of the 186 retirements in his department last year together with the age, so that we might get an idea of the prevailing age at which these civil servants have retired.


John Warwick King: I have the list
here. It is very lengthy and could be tabled for the use of members if desired. It shows the name, position, place, reason for retirement, date of retirement, age of retirement, number of years' service, salary at the time of retirement, average salary last three years, gratuity, retirement and annuity, retiring gratuity. That could be placed on the table.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Mr. Chairman, I realize it is a little unfair to ask the minister to give us all those details, but I should like him to take advantage of the liberty usually accorded to a minister and place the information on Hansard.


John Warwick King: I can do that if it is the wish of the committee.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes. I did not want to embarrass the minister at all.
(For statement see p. 887).


Arthur Meighen: I have the Calder Act before me and I find the Civil Service Commission merely reports on fhe correctness of the facts represented by the applicant. The act says that " the Governor in Council may order that such officer shall be retired," and that " the decision of the Governor in Council thereon shall be final." The responsibility is single, it is not on the commission at all.


John Warwick King: The commission prepare the data, make the investigation, which is referred to the minister, and the minister places it before the Governor in Council.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Agriculture-health of Animals, (administration and enforcement of Animal Contagious Diseases and Meat and Canned Foods Acts and necessaiy buildings), $1,905,000.
Arthur Meighen: Can the minister tell us what kind of health the animals have now?


Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Chairman, this vote is reduced by $95,000. Naturally the query is, do we intend to reduce our activities to that extent. Quite recently we worked out a slightly different system of appraisement of compensation for animals slaughtered for T.B. In addition to that we have ceased to give compensation for certain animals. We are not giving compensation for steers, for the simple reason that 'these animals can be fed and sold at ordinary beef prices. The same applies to animals affected with lump jaw, and to grade bulls.


Arthur Meighen: How is it all right to fatten a tubercular steer and sell it for beef and not fatten and sell a tubercular heifer for beef?


William Richard Motherwell: The steer's ultimate destiny is the block, while the female can go on reproducing her species for a long time to come before she goes to the block.


Arthur Meighen: The minister has missed my point altogether, but he has not lost his wit. I have no doubt he can answer this question if he understands it. Suppose a heifer and a steer are both affected with tuberculosis. The minister says, in the case of the female animal the department makes an allowance for its destruction; but in the case of the male animal it is allowed to be fattened and sold as beef. Why not fatten the female and sell it as beef too?


William Richard Motherwell: The female is a very much more valuable animal to a man building up a herd. You would be a long time building up a herd on a steer. I think we are perfectly justified. The steer can be sent to the stable for fattening and when it is sold its owner gets full value for the animal. I do not think my right hon. friend wants me to go into more minute details. If he does not know the difference between the two, I am afraid I cannot explain it further on this occasion.

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Robert King Anderson: Is the beef of these
two animals fit for food?


William Richard Motherwell: Oh, yes, the carcasses are inspected at government supervised abattoirs, and if they show lesions these are cut out and destroyed.


Robert King Anderson: To what extent should the animal be diseased to render the beef unfit for food?


William Richard Motherwell: That will be according to the judgment of the inspector. If it is too far gone, it will all go into the tank.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Speaking from the consumer's standpoint, a great many of these tubercular animals are slaughtered by butchers not under government inspection, and there is nothing to prevent the sale of this tainted and perhaps very dangerous meat as food1 in shops which handle that class of 'beef. For instance, I will take the city with which I am best acquainted, Vancouver. I think Swift's and Burns's abattoirs are inspected, but small dealers who slaughter their own animals are not controlled at all, their slaughter houses are never inspected. Should not some effort be made, under the heading of the health of animals, if you like, to prevent these dealers from selling the meat of tubercular cattle?


William Richard Motherwell: All the animals
condemned for tuberculosis by government officials are killed under proper government supervision at the regular abattoirs. The disposition of the other ones my hon. friend speaks of in the smaller districts is regulated by the town by-laws, if there are any.
Mr. STEVEN'S:	There is no inspection of
the carcass at all.


William Richard Motherwell: - Not on the part of the government. We could not put on a sufficient staff to go into every small place.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I appreciate that. But
there is no inspection at all?


William Richard Motherwell: It depends on the
health authorities of the respective municipalities; there is no inspection by the government.


Arthur Meighen: Mr. Chairman, I am
still wanting to know why there is an allowance made for the female animal destined for the slaughter house if it is found to be tubercular, but no allowance is made for a male animal destined for the same place. If the minister cannot understand my question, I am going to ask the ex-minister (Mr. Tolmie) to give me the explanation.


William Richard Motherwell: All countries that
have adopted this system of eradication have excluded steers-the United States, for example.


Arthur Meighen: Why?


William Richard Motherwell: Anybody who knows anything about it at all understands the difference.


Arthur Meighen: Had we not better have a minister who knows something about it?


William Richard Motherwell: I should like to
have a listener who knows something about it. I might then be able to explain it more easily to him.


Mr. LOVIE:: What is the minister going
to do with regard to the request made to him last August in the town of Carman, Manitoba, by the reeves of three municipalities in the restricted area, Thompson, Dufferin, and Roland-along with them was the Deputy Minister of Agriculture for Manitoba-that the Dominion government assist in meeting the cost of advertising the products from that area? It is true that the Dominion government gave compensation in the matter of cleaning up the herds, but the diseased herds were slaughtered throughout that territory and they think that their dairy products at least ought to 'be more valuable than those of the country round about.


William Richard Motherwell: I remember the
occasion, but I think we have gone -pretty far in starting a free area there, the first in the British Empire, I understand. We have under consideration an extension of the area to one municipality north, provided they in turn do something for us. We feel that work of this nature should be worth a good deal to the locality in which it is carried out, and that they should do something to develop their live stock industry along the dine of community breeding or something of that nature. We have not considered the -advertising proposal as advisable. We have no money for any kind of advertising.


William James Lovie: The suggestion was that the municipalities would stand a certain part of the cost of advertising, and the provincial government, through their Deputy Minister of Agriculture, promised to co-operate also if the federal Minister of Agriculture could see his way to assist. My hon. friend did not make any promise, but I am just reminding him of the suggestion that was made to him at that time to see if he feels like doing anything about it. Possibly these gentlemen would only want the services of one man and

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I do not know that that would be very expensive. There is no doubt that they will be anxious to know at this time, when the estimates are going through, if they are to get any assistance along that line. It is a very live question with them


William Richard Motherwell: We are working
largely through the Deputy Minister of Agriculture there, Mr. Evans. I have had two or three letters from him. Anything we have had in mind is along the line of the extension of the area to the north; we have not discussed the advertising feature of it. We really could not see our way clear to go that far. I think the local authorities should look after that.


William James Lovie: Does the minister promise
that the municipality of Grey to the north is going to be taken into this restricted area?


William Richard Motherwell: Not an unconditional promise-if they will do something in the way of community breeding. We lay down that condition. We want to avoid doing too much without their doing something in return.


William James Lovie: But it is under comtemplation that the municipality of Grey will be included in the free area?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes, if they comply with the conditions laid down.


Mr. BRETHEN:: I believe the impression has gone out that the total vote for health of animals, something like $2,000,000, goes to the reimbursement of owners of animals that have been destroyed on account of disease. How much of this vote actually goes to reimburse owners for the loss of animals and how much to the maintenance of public health, that is, meat and canned foods and the amount expended under municipal orders?


William Richard Motherwell: Roughly, the
amounts are divided in this way: Contagious diseases, $1,330,000; meat and canned foods, $520,000; pathological division, $55,000; these divisions subdivided as follows: salaries, $410,000; travelling expenses, $252,000; supplies, $25,000; tuberculosis compensation, $591,000; hog cholera compensation, $4,000; glanders compensation, $7,000; mange eradication, $20,000; rentals, $7,000. The amount expended under municipal orders was $126,000. So that the amount spent for the public health rather than the health of animals would be $520,000 -meat and canned foods-plus the $126,000. Of course, this is all for the health of the human race as well as for the animal kingdom. The compensation is really helpful to man.


George Arthur Brethen: I am glad to have this
distinction, because I have heard this vote for $2,000,000 referred to in its entirety as being a vote bo agriculture, whereas this $646,000, as I understand it, is directly for the general human welfare, the balance going to the reimbursement of owners for the loss of animals and the expenses connected therewith. I am heartily in sympathy with this vote, and my only regret is that the government have seen fit to reduce it. I believe that the money that has been expended on the accredited herd system has been probably better spent than any other expenditure the government has made. In the last five years the results from this system and the diffusion of knowledge among the breeders of pure bred cattle concerning tuberculosis have been simply wonderful, and it has been proved beyond a doubt that if the money is expended tills disease can be eradicated. There is not only a great loss in live stock through the carcasses that are condemned, but also a very grave menace to human beings. I believe that in the neighbourhood of Saskatoon something over 10,000 reactors were removed under a municipal order, and every one of these animals was a potential source of disease to the human race.
This money that is expended on the inspection of meat for the protection of the public is also well spent, but I do not think it is anything like so important as the protection of the health of the people from our raw milk supply, because practically all meat is cooked before it is eaten, and the cooking destroys the danger of infection; but raw milk constitutes a very great menace to the health of the public. There is no longer any question that a very large percentage of tuberculosis cases among human beings are of bovine origin, and I only wish there was some method whereby the knowledge that has been diffused among the breeders of pure bred cattle concerning the dangers of this disease could be brought home to the people generally, so that there might come a demand for the expenditure of large sums of public money to protect the health of the people. This may seem to be getting away from the health of animals, but there is such a close connection between the two, and you will notice that the vote takes care of both, that I think I am in order in speaking of the health of human beings on this vote. In certain sections, restricted areas are being cleaned up, but it does seem to me that the best results would be obtained' if we had key herds from coast to coast in much the same way as the accredited pure bred herd system is carried on. I think

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in that way good results could be attained in a very few years. It is more important to have this work done in the smaller centres, because in the larger cities there is usually a pasteurizing plant which destroys any danger of infection from the milk; but in the smaller municipalities milk is generally provided in its raw state, and if these small centres were placed on much the same basis as the pure bred herds, the public in the surrounding locality would become aroused to the danger of infection from milk. I suggested 'something like this about a year ago, but it was about twelve o'clock at night when the vote came on, following a long discussion on another phase of this subject. I notice that within the last few days a small municipality that wrote me last year about the subject showing an interest in the vote, has taken steps through its municipal council to provide its citizens with clean milk aside altogether from any assistance from the government. While I agree that great good can be accomplished by having these restricted areas and by municipal order taking in large numbers of cattle surrounding a city I believe that if an expenditure were made from coast to coast by this government, and certain herds that are supplying raw milk and that are a direct menace to public health were taken into an accredited herd system, very good results could be attained in a short time.


William Richard Motherwell: Of course, we are
limited in this work by the amount of money available. I might draw the hon. member's attention to the fact that we have over one hundred of what we call supervised herds, which include the grade herds of which my hon. friend has spoken, where a farmer will make application to the Health of Animals branch to have his herd tested by one of our officers. He does not get any compensation, but the test will show him where he stands. The inspector puts a T in the ear of any animal that reacts, and the man then knows exactly what he has got. That costs the farmer practically nothing but he does not get any compensation. There are, however, a considerable number of grade animals for which there is compensation and that is those that are associated with a small herd of pure foreds. For instance, a man may apply to have a small herd of five pure bred cattle come under the accredited herd system, five being the minimum; and he may have 85 per cent of grades in that herd. We will test them in order to protect the pure breds, and allow compensation. So in all these different ways we are covering quite a bit of ground. Before we take any forward step in the direction of cover-55i
ing large areas or an entire province, except perhaps Prince Edward Island, we shall have to secure the co-operation of provincial and possibly municipal governments. There is no reason why the federal government should indefinitely test all these herds free for any city and the city not put up anything towards supplying its citizens with good milk; so we hope to have the sympathies of the provincial and municipal governments enlisted in a practical way, and a system of co-operation adopted that will enable us to go forward. At the moment, times are too hard for most provincial and municipal governments to dip into their treasury for even so worthy a purpose as this. In the meantime we are doing the best we can, but I look forward to having some co-operation with the provincial and municipal governments in the future.


Mr. LEADER:: Like the hon. member
for East Peterborough I think this is one of the most important subjects we can discuss in the Parliament of Canada, for it deals not only with the health of animals but with the health of the Canadian people. The minister has stated that we cannot enlarge on this work owing to the fact, that we are a little low in funds. I think it is to the shame of the Canadian people that we cannot find funds enough to take care of the eradication of tuberculosis not only from our animals but from our children also. I am sorry the minister saw fit to increase the grant for experimental farms by $40,000, and at the same time decrease the grant for this work by-SOS,000; so I do niort think all the blame can be attached to the Canadian people. I think the minister should have had courage enough to have given us a grant of perhaps $500,000 more, if necessary, to take care of this work, because after all, w-hile it is a splendid thing to have ornamental hedges, flowering bulbs and forage plants propagated, it is far more vital that we conserve the health of our children. There is no doubt in the world that this disease does menace the health of our people. I have here a poster printed by the Department of Agriculture of the United States-the minister has probably got some of these in his office-depicting a little duld who has been sick by drinking milk from tuberculous cows, alongside a healthy child, a child rendered healthy by drinking milk from healthy cattle. So I say not only does great economic loss result from this disease but it is a menace to public health. I have also figures in regard to the toll this disease takes and the great economic loss which it occasions in the country to the south. In the year 1923, 49,839 head of cattle were slaught-
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ered and condemned on account of tuberculosis-they were condemned and thrown into the scrap heap. In the same year 88,688 carcasses of hogs were condemned also on account of tuberculosis. Now the information that we get from this report, bulletin No. 1,069, says that this is probably only about one-half of the total loss in the United States; that only about 35 per cent of the animals killed there are killed in abattoirs besides which many die from the disease. So that the loss given in this bulletin only represents about one-half of the total. I will quote a few extracts from another bulletin on this subject:
What hog tuberculosis is costing farmers
Hog tuberculosis last year sent over 25,000,000 pounds of hog meat into the condemned tanks of only the federally inspected slaughterhouses. This meat, worth, except for tuberculosis, over $2,000,000, was fit only for soap grease or fertilizer.
Hog tuberculosis in one year sent 66,000 hog carcasses into the fertilizer tank.
Hog tuberculosis causes one-fourth to one-third of the hogs shipped from certain inspected farms to be rejected for meat and to be sold at tankage prices.
Hog tuberculosis causes many slaughterhouses in badly infected districts to protect themselves against such losses by offering lower prices for all hogs.
Hog tuberculosis causes other packers to refuse to accept hog shipments from certain dairy districts except as "subject" shipments; that is, "subject" to examination for tuberculosis after slaughter.
Hog tuberculosis, therefore, is causing thousands of farmers to turn their good corn, alfalfa, concentrates, and skim milk into low-priced soap grease instead of high-priced pork.
The bulletin goes on to say that hogs contract tuberculosis chiefly through dairy cows which are also very subject to tuberculosis. The disease in the cow infects her milk, system, her lungs, and her throat with tubercle bacilli.
I have looked over the report of our inspector general and I have compiled some figures which I wish to give, but in doing so I will be as brief as possible. In 1924 we had 11,470 beef carcasses condemned. Over 50 per cent of these carcasses were condemned on account of tuberculosis. At the same time 5,450 carcasses of swine were condemned, and 75 per cent of these carcasses were condemned on account of tuberculosis. I have figured these 5,735 carcasses of beef at a value at $50 a carcass, so we have there a loss of $286,750. I have figured the hog carcasses as worth $18 a Carcass, and the total value would be $73,566.	So there we have a total loss of
$360,316. If we apply the same principle to these figures that is applied in the United States they only represent albtout one-half of the total loss. If you consider that we paid out only a little over $500,000 on account of the accredited herd plan you can

readily see that the economic loss was greater than the amount represented by the monetary paj'iments. And yet some people have the temerity to get up and assert that we are paying out millions of dollars to eradicate this disease. As a matter of fact we are not paying out millions of dollars, we :are only paying out a few hundred thousand a year. Moreover we are accomplishing something through these payments, a fact which the critics referred to ignore.
Now, can we eradicate bovine tuberculosis? I have figures here which will prove beyond a doubt that we can eradicate tuberculosis if we take hold of it man-fashion. Under the municipal testing order in 1923 we tested 54,301 head of cattle, of which 7,976 reacted. The percentage of reactors was 14.7. In 1924 we tested 60,967 head of cattle, there were 3,214 reactors, and the percentage of reactors was 5.3, less than one-half of the number of reactors in 1923 although 6,666 more cattle were tested.
Then under the accredited herd plan which is now in operation, in 1923 we tested 52,548 head of cattle. Of this number 5,484 reacted, and the percentage of reactors was 10.44. In 1924 there were 86,174 head of cattle tested. The number which reacted was 7,343, and the percentage of reactors was only 8.5 although there was an increase of 33,626 in the number of cattle tested, and the cost was less by $2,390 than that of the previous year. This is accounted for, to some extent, by the reduced compensation paid, but mainly by the decrease in the number of cattle which reacted. These facts go to prove that we can eradicate bovine tuberculosis when we tackle the problem in an aggressive way.
We have another ' method in operation in this country-the restricted area system. We have, so far, not branched out very far in that direction but I have some illuminating figures here. In Manitoba the number of cattle tested was 16,550. The number which reacted was 992, and the percentage of reactors 5.8. I have not the figures of all the other tests, I believe there were two others. The first test cost $3.50 per head. The cost of the last test was reduced to 50 cents per head. I think the percentage of reactors was less than one per cent at the time the last test was made. Therefore I make the claim that we can eradicate bovine tuberculosis if we go at it in an aggressive way, and we can save money too if we take hold of the matter in an effective way in time.
The United States have undertaken this work to a greater extent than we have in

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Canada, and here let me say that I am sorry the Canadian government does not take a more aggressive stand in connection with this work. We have one plan whereby application can be made by anybody who wishes his herd to come under test. Ap-
9 p.m. plicants are given every assistance by the department. An inspector is detailed on the work free of charge, tuberculin is furnished free of charge, but in the case of any reactors the owner of the diseased cattle does not get any compensation. I want to say that that plan of the government is flourishing, but in the case of the municipal testing order no further new herds are being taken on, and so the work is being curtailed to a certain extent.
The accredited herd plan is not being pushed, in my judgment, as it should be, because we have reduced the vote this year to take care of that work. The restricted area plan is not going ahead as it should. I am informed that we have instituted one such area in Quebec within very recent months, and the government has undertaken to carry on work on this line still further. In contrast to what we are doing, the United States are working very vigorously to eradicate the disease and have appropriated $2,000,000 more this year than they did last year. They have got over ten million head of cattle in the free areas, and they have 485 counties where the plan is in operation and 55 counties where the herds are free from tuberculosis. Therefore I must express my regret that our government are not keeping step with the United States in this great work. We should be acting on some international plan, we should not only be working in co-operation with the United States but trying to keep up with their efforts. When the United States are taking definite steps to eradicate this disease, we should endeavour to keep pace with them. A method adopted by the United States is that they will not pay compensation for breeding cattle, or cattle affected with actinomycosis or in simple language lump jaw. We find that the Canadian government has accepted that plan and has put it into the regulations^	The	United States	have	another plan. In that country, owners of grade herds can come under the accredited herd plan and take advantage of it in the same way as owners of pure bred herds. I have always wondered why there was this gross discrimination in not accepting grade herds as well as pure bred herds in this country. This seems a	little	like one law for the	richand another	law	for the poor.	Again Iam making	my	plea to-night	that	the
government accept applications from owners of grade herds as well as from owners of pure bred herds. I am glad to hear the minister say that he is willing to go on with this woi'k, and I hope the government will, in future, undertake a more aggressive com-paign to stamp out this disease which is one of the most loathsome diseases affecting mankind.


William Richard Motherwell: I like to have this
testimony from the hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader), because we all recognize that he is a practical live stock man and knows what he is talking about. With regard to the accredited herd plan not being pushed, I do not suppose we are out advertising it, but the complaint comes from Alberta that we are pushing it too rapidly. My hon. friend understands the circumstances. They complain that our inspectors go around canvassing for these herds.


Harry Leader: I see no evidence of that.


William Richard Motherwell: I am glad my hon. friend says that he sees no evidence of it. We have enough to do without advertising for new herds. When the committee learns that we have 180 herds waiting to be tested, it can readily understand that there is no need of unduly advertising for new herds in Alberta or anywhere else. These applications are coming in at the rate of about forty a week, so that we are behind the applications only about four and one-half weeks. We are therefore reasonably well up to the work. As regards the other places, we try to take them along parallel lines. There is only one area in Quebec, but it takes in a little more than two counties. We have completed the first go-over, and we shall soon have more men liberated so that we shall be able to catch up with these 180 applications. I do not think we can hold out any hope of grade herds being taken on just now, except those that I referred to a few moments ago that were in the same class as the small herds of pure breds. Where a man has, say five pure breds, 85 per cent of grades will be taken on in order to clean up the bunch. I have sometimes wondered whether we are justified in going that far. There is, however, no use in testing such a man's pure breds unless you test his grades and get them cleaned up too. But it is going quite a distance to help the man with a small bunch, and he should proceed along the line of increasing his pure breds rather than of making them an excuse for having his grades cleaned up. I think some are taking a little advantage of that provision for the purpose of getting their grades cleaned up.
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There is a very obvious reason why the accredited herd system was devoted to pure bred herds first. It was because of the large number of sales of pure bred animals scattered throughout the Dominion. If any of them had tuberculosis, he would be a much more serious disseminator of the disease than a grade animal that stays at home. If we had abundance of money for this work, I suppose we would be justified in taking up individual grade herds, but I would rather deal with the areas because you get a solid block then. We have nothing like the percentage of infected animals in Canada that they have in Europe or Great Britain. In the first area that we tested, the percentage of reactions was not quite 6 per cent. Then we got it down to one-half of one per cent. Now it is down to one-third of one per cent. In the last area at Huntingdon, in the first test the percentage was between 8 and 9. They have done some of the second test and that shows about 2 per cent of reaction. Consequently, we have not the great difficulty that they have in European countries where sometimes the percentage will amount to three-quarters of the entire number. They are simply throwing up their hands, because they would have to clean out the entire herds. We can pursue a system of eradication without serious loss to or reduction in the herds because of the small number of reactors, though, of course, some herds will be hit seriously.
In the meantime, the problem of the live stock and veterinary world is to find some immunizing vaccine to treat the young calves with and immunize them from disease later on, if possible all through life. Some progress has been made in that respect by what is called the Calmette vaccine, but that immunizes for only from twelve to eighteen months, and only animals not previously affected by tuberculosis. The work is being prosecuted at the labaratory and in isolated herds on the other side of the line. All the veterinary laboratories throughout the world for the last twenty years have been concentrating their activities on getting an immunizing vaccine that can' be used in treating the animals when they are young rather than depending upon eradication by slaughter entirdy. Some of us may live to see this consummated. It may come quite quickly. Some man may be fortunate enough to discover it whom we are not watching at all. Men with great reputations like Calmette, Viallee and Smith and others may be outrun by someone who has not yet been heard of. It is not a matter of luck, but sometimes these things are dropped upon quite 
unexpectedly, and that may occur. But even if that does not occur, the regular men who are looked upon as being in the forefront of this work, are steadily making progress towards the desired end.


Harry Leader: I should like to take this
opportunity of replying to the minister's statement that great pressure has been brought to bear upon the government to discontinue this work from certain sections of the country. I know that is a fact. I attended the conference of the Western Live Stock Union at Calgary this year. The deputy minister was also present. I want to pay this tribute to him, that he withstood the attacks of some of those, shall I call them fanatics, from the province of Alberta. I want to congratulate him for undertaking to stand foursquare for this work in face of those attacks. The minister mentioned that he thought the provinces should co-operate with the federal government in connection with this work. He will remember that I have always taken that stand. Although I am from Manitoba, I am quite prepared to go back and take the responsibility for saying that I believe the province of Manitoba should make provision to pay some of the compensation for animals that are slaughtered. We should have the co-operation of the provinces and of the municipalities, and we must have the co-operation of the breeders too if this work is going to be a success. I am convinced that we can eradicate tuberculosis if we go at the work in an aggressive manner. We have succeeded in eradicating glanders and certain other diseases by simply going after them aggressively. I am sorry I am not a veterinary surgeon or I could use those scientific terms. It will take a long time and a good' deal of money to eradicate tuberculosis, but if we roll up our sleeves and put our backs into the work, I believe we can eradicate it also.


Alfred Edgar MacLean: I was glad to
hear the minister refer to the little province of Prince Edward Island and say that he thought it would lend itself splendidly to a disease-free area. This matter was brought up last year on this vote, and I pointed out to the minister that we had requests from that province that disease-free areas should be established there. iSince then the matter has been taken up by the Department of Agriculture of that province, and they have sent large petitions, I think, to the department here. I believe the whole province is looking to have it made a disease-free area. As we are not too flush of money down there, I hope it will not be left over until the time

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when each of the provinces will have to bear a proportion of the cost, because it would be a great handicap in having the work done. I may say that our province has made splendid progress in dairying and splendid herds have been established there. We have a number of accredited herds, and some of our stock sold exceedingly well. I met a gentleman here a few days !ago from our province who told me that he sold Holstein cows to a farm near here for $1,000. In the light of these facts I think the department should give every attention to the request that has come in from that section. Of course it may not be very good advertising to publish the figures quoted here to-night, but the hon. member from Portage la Prairie has certainly brought home to the committee very vividly the fact that we are dosing more money by not attending to this than if we throw some more money into it and have it properly done. I hope those who have the health of their fellow citizens in this Dominion at heart, as well as the great agricultural and dairying industries of our Dominion, will see that this is a very important work, and that no vote that will ever be presented in this House having this object in view will ever be challenged or in any way interfered with I sincerely trust the minister will give every attention to the request that has come from the province of Prince Edward Island.


William Richard Motherwell: Having regard to
the apparent likelihood of the vote going through safely, I feel that I could have a better idea how to lay out next year's work when we get it through council. In addition to that, the area in Quebec has been completed:. It is the first "once over" and we have that off our hands now. I cannot make any hard and fast promises, Mr. Chairman, because after all a certain amount of duty devolves upon the provincial governments in this matter. They have to undertake to prosecute the matter in respect to organizing the campaign, and have to do some compulsory work, where the farmers refuse to have their cattle tested. The Dominion has not the power of compulsion in that regard. We cannot make the statement that we are going to do thus and so when we are co-operating with another government that is to do so and so, before we can go ahead. Two years ago when I was out at the coast I discussed this question with the premier, Hon. John Oliver, and at that time it struck me that the two best areas to conduct these accredited herd operations, because of their natural boundaries, would be Vancouver island and Prince Edward Island, one at one coast
and one at the other. The great trouble with the Carman area was its lack of natural boundaries, and the difficulty of keeping the line of demarcation between what was cleaned up and what was not cleaned up, and travelling back and forth for various reasons; but in the case of Vancouver island or Prince Edward Island, you have a perfect water boundary, and I felt that as soon as the money was available these two areas would be taken up next. I think Prince Edward Island will come first, because this last year or two particularly all the federal members from Prince Edward Island, particularly the hon. gentleman who has just spoken (Mr. MacLean), his colleague from the same riding and the other two members from the province, have been pressing this matter upon me and have assured me that the time is ripe in Prince Edward Island for cleaning up the island and converting it into a Canadian Jersey island. In this island they have practically no T.B. They have one breed of animal and one breed of cow and they have practically no T.B. in the island. Why can we not have a Canadian Jersey island? We cannot hope to have one breed in Prince Edward Island, because there would be a terrific struggle as to which it would be, but there is no reason why we cannot have a Jersey island as far as T.B. is concerned. If we could do this we would have a stimulant, and we could say, "Well, we have one province cleaned up." The same may be said of Vancouver island, but it is a larger area and there is more hinterland, and it would be more expensive to go to the remote points. These are two points we have in mind, and I think everything else being all right and others playing their part in it, there is no reason why we should not take up the matter in Prince Edward Island as soon as possible this summer. That would make one restricted area in the Maritimes, one in the central provinces, one in the prairie provinces and one in British Columbia. That will give us an idea of the probable expense it would be to tackle the country as a whole. We will have some data to place before the municipal and provincial governments as to the cost, as to the percentage of reactors-that is the second and third test-before we would start the campaign. That is the position we are in, and I feel very gratified that the expense is not terrifying us. I may say, however, before we can undertake the campaign in the province of Prince Edward Island we will require to have the wholehearted co-operation of everybody that we have been referring to. They will need to get right behind us.
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Harry Leader: Is the plan in the United
States not this, that they will not take on any work unless the state or municipality or county, or whatever it is called, agrees to pay -an equal amount in compensation?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes, I think that
is the position, but we do not want to impose -that condition at this stage in our country. This -is educational work really. The reason we started .in- Manitoba is that that is the first province that made the request. I happened to be discussing the matter with my staff when Mr. Evans came to see me at my office and it Was -purely a matter of accident where we should start. I only know incidentally that Carman is located in the constituency of the hon. member for Macdonald (Mr. Lovie). I am not quite sure.


Harry Leader: In regard to the natural
boundaries, it will be quite easy to extend this Carman area in Manitoba, especially northward. The county of Portage la Prairie borders on the Carman area. Already in that area 75 per cent of th-e cattle are now under test. I think I am right in making that statement. I think Dr. F-asken, our inspector at Portage la Prairie, has 43 -or 44 pure bred herds under his supervision, and I think almost 40 are now accredited-, and when I make the statement that 75 per cent of the cattle -are now under test hon. members will see that it would be an easy matter to extend the boundary northward in the county of Portage la Prairie.


Mr. GOOD:: Could the minister give us
any information as to -how far unsanitary conditions are neutralizing this wiork?


Alfred Edgar MacLean: I thank the
minister for the sentiment that he has thrown out, and the statement that he is willing to consider the request from our province.
I was very much interested in hearing the gentlemen who addressed the committee on agriculture yesterday and for the information (they gave us, especially along this line of vaccine. I think -that is one of the most important things that; can possibly engage the minds of the men who are looking into this matter at the present time. We all hope something along this line will be discovered which will supersede the present system, but in the meantime I wish to thank the minister for his cordial reception of onr request, and the intimation that same will be considered.


William Richard Motherwell: Replying to the
hon. member for Brant (Mr. Good), I have not any exact figures to show how far this

good work has been neutralized by unsanitary stable conditions. I do not think it is as large a factor in the bovine as it is in the human. I believe average stabling is all right for maintaining the health of animals, but if we neglected our housing conditions to the same extent there would be greater danger of tubercular infection. But there is no question that the better the stabling is constructed the greater the tendency will be to eliminate the disease or to prevent it from getting a footing. Our best veterinarians are of opinion that stable -conditions are not the big factor we thought they were in respect to the prevalence of tuberculosis among cattle. The very fact that we have found tuberculosis in our buffaloes that nevei were in a stable shows that the veterinary authorities have good grounds for their opinion.


William Charles Good: Has the department made any investigation along that lin-e to find out how important a factor stabling is?


William Richard Motherwell: We have no data.


Mr. WARNER:: Mr. Chairman, I do not
claim to be one of the fanatics, -but the Alberta stock men having been referred to as fanatical, I desire to say a word or two on TJ3. testing. In my district hundreds of cows are sent to the block on account of reacting to the tuberculin test. We have cleaned up that district, and we want to be assured that untested cattle will not be sent in there. I have a lot of faith in the efficacy of vaccination to control tuberculosis, but we are not ready to abolish the present system until we know more about the merits of vaccination. These merits have not been proved yet, but I want to commend the government for the research work they are conducting or the benefits that mlay be derived from the adoption of vaccination in place of the present system of T.B. testing. I have been a stock man all my life, and I have always found it better in every way to keep my stock -healthy rather than try to cure them when they became sick. We want to prevent T.B. Like the hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader)
I regret the reduced vote, and I would very much dislike to see the work neglected or the present system slackened in any way until we have a better one to take its place, but we have to trust the department. In a dairy district it is perhaps a little more difficult to keep a restricted area clean of tuberculosis because infected cows are being continually weeded out and others are being brought in from outside districts. Therefore I would impress upon the government the necessity of having every animal tested before

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it is allowed to be brought into a clean district, and I believe the department is fully alive to the importance of this protective measure. The city authorities of Edmonton are encouraging dairy men to send in milk from tested, healthy cows, and the greater part of the milk used in the city is pasteurized, but some small dairy men are peddling unpasteurized milk. The city authorities want all milk pasteurized in order to guard the people against tubercular infection, and I do not think we can be too careful in this respect. As I understand the new method, the calves should be treated with vaccine just as soon after birth as possible, and before there is time for the disease to develop, because it is thought they do not inherit tuberculosis. Therefore vaccine is used to prevent the cailf taking the disease from the mother's milk or becoming infected in any other way. As I said before, I do not want to be considered fanatical, but I do not feel it is fanatical to encourage the use of vaccine to prevent tuberculosis instead of continuing the present system of T.B. testing indefinitely.


William Richard Motherwell: Even with this vote reduced we hope to do just as much work this year as we did last year, not only for the reasons I have indicated but because the work is better organized. In Quebec the percentage was larger than we expected it to be; in Prince Edward Island I am sure the reactors will not be over four or five per cent, perhaps less. In fact, some hon. members from Prince Edward Island have suggested that iit will be as low as two per cent, but I do not hope for that. In any case it will not be as expensive an undertaking as the work in Quebec. We have taken on a good deal more work since the embargo on Canadian cattle was removed. We are obliged by the British law to put a man on every cargo of cattle, and these veterinarians keep the animals under observation all the way across to the Old Country. So that without any addition to the staff we have taken on that new work and are still continuing the old. I assure my hon. friend that the work will not fall back or be neglected; it will be pressed forward and be quite as strong as it was last year. The vaccine to which my hon. friend refers is being tried out on herds in our laboratory over in Hull. Many other discoveries of this nature are placed before the public from time to time; every few weeks the newspaper despatches indicate that somebody has at last found an immunizing vaccine that will prevent the development of tuberculosis in cattle. Two or three weeks ago a despatch appeared in the press to the effect that a very
powerful disinfectant had been discovered at the Johns Hopkins institution at Baltimore which would kill the bug in the animal without destroying the flesh of the animal, something several hundred times stronger than the ordinary disinfectant. Well, that is almost incredible, but there may be something in it. The hon. member for Qu'Appelle has a friend in his riding, a veterinary at Indian Head, who insists that he has a cure not only for bovine tuberculosis, but for tuberculosis in human beings. We would need a stable from here to the Chateau Laurier to test out all these alleged cures, to say nothing of the money required, but we do go as far as we can in that direction. We are doing all that is humanly possible to promote research work, notwithstanding the inadequate facilities we have for it here in Ottawa. There is not a more Slovenly system of departmental buildings in the whole wide world than those used by the Agriculture department right in this capital. We have to make our vaccine in an old house down here on what I will call Slum avenue, between Wellington street and the river, and the research work, so important, is being carried out by Dr. Watson in a laboratory in the house in which he lives. Tnese are not proper conditions and we are trying to correct them. Perhaps we should go faster, but if you knew how I had to sweat to get this much you would feel gratified that it is not less.


Daniel Webster Warner: I want to thank the minister for the information. I am glad' to bear that he is able to dlo the work just as effectively with less money. There seems to be a fear .in imy part of the country that the present system of tuberculin test will be discarded before the merits of the new method of tuberculin test by use of vaccine, have been proven to be satisfactory. I hope that will not be the case.


William Richard Motherwell: Oh no, that will not be done. My hon. friend has heard the old adage "It is best to be off with the old love before you are on with the new." I think that is sound doctrine.


Mr. LUCAS:: The minister stated a few moments ago that he was receiving complaints from Alberta that this work was being pressed too strongly in that province and that a number of veterinarians who were engaged in the work were occupying their time in canvassing and advertising. Would that be due to the fact that there ate more men thaPe than are necessary for the work? How many veterinarians are engaged in this work in the Dominion and how many by provinces?
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William Richard Motherwell: From memory I
would say there are about ISO in the Dominion as a whole. Judging from the discussion this afternoon you would, think every minister was trying to pad his staff to the very limit but instead of that we are keeping the staff of this department down to the point where we ate in danger of losing efficiency. We have appointed practically no veterinarians for several years although we have taken on a Lot of new work. In fact, we are at the point where we shall soon require more.


Mr. KNOX:: A few nights ago, when we were concluding the discussion on the live stock item, the minister promised that if there were any fag ends of that discussion left over we would have an opportunity of taking them up on this vote. I have had protests from farmers' and stock growers' associations in regard to the rates charged by commission men at the stockyards for handling stock. Has parliament any control over these rates?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes. The rates are fixed by the live stock exchanges, but they are submitted to this department for approval. The rate is now $17 per car. That is higher than it used to be, but everything has gone up since the war.


Andrew Knox: I would like to point out that it was during the war years when the price of cattle went so high that these rates were raised to their present level. Since that time the price of stock has been reduced until now it is not much more than one-third of what it was then, and yet the charges by the commission men on the yards remain just the same as when cattle prices were at their peak. I think it is advisable that some steps be taken to have these charges reduced to something like the former level, or at least that they be brought down very considerably from what they are to-day, for certainly it is not very encouraging to men who are raising live stock to have to pay these high charges on the yards.


William Richard Motherwell: We will look into that. The question has been up several times, and the consensus of opinion on the part of those who had to do with the other end and of the officials of the Live Stock branch seems to be that the charge was justified. My recollection is that the pre-war charge was $12.50.


Andrew Knox: Something like that.


William Richard Motherwell: If that is so, the increase is not so excessive as it has been in some other things. I can remember when the rate used to be only $10, but that was a good while ago. However, I will look into it and have the question reviewed.


Mr. THURSTON:: Are the charges the
same throughout the whole Dominion?


William Richard Motherwell: No, they vary with the yards.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: Would the minister quote the charges for the various yards?


William Richard Motherwell: We have not the record here, although we have a record. The live stock exchanges set the rates, and they are submitted to us for approval.


Donald Ferdinand Kellner: I thought the minister said his department controlled the rates.


William Richard Motherwell: We do. The rates are referred to us in order that we may prevent extortion; but we do not set them. The exchanges set the rate and submit them to us for approval or otherwise. This Live Stock Products Act has only been in force two years now.


Robert Alexander Hoey: The department has the power to reduce rates if they see fit?


William Richard Motherwell: We can refuse approval, but I do not think we can impose rates. We can send them back for reconsideration.


Andrew Knox: Then I would suggest that
they be sent back because at the present time they are much too high compared with the price received for cattle.


William Richard Motherwell: I have seen a few
references in the press about the charges, but my recollection is that there has been no serious complaint yet through the ordinary medium. However, I shall look into the whole matter, not only the rates at the western yards but at the eastern yards as well.


William Thomas Lucas: Is the minister able to give
me a reply now to the question I asked a few moments ago?


William Richard Motherwell: My deputy has not been able to look that up yet, but it is around 150.


William Thomas Lucas: The feeling in my district
is that there is a great deal of over-lapping not only in connection with this work but in all the other departments as well. I think if the minister would co-operate with the provincial governments and eliminate this

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over-lapping, a reduction in these estimates could be made. Work that the provincial governments can do by reason of their proximity to the field might well be left to them, and other work by conference could be assigned to the Dominion government. Has the minister done anything in regard to trying to bring about that co-ordination of work, not only in connection with experimental farms, but the other branches of agriculture we were discussing last night.


William Richard Motherwell: Yes, we are working along these lines in Alberta and every other province, but I hope my hon. friend does not get that idea of over-dapping into his head so much that he cannot get it out. No matter how you arrange it, where you have agricultural activities carried on by both federal and provincial governments, you can draw no possible line of demarcation except by friendly understanding. I think I explained the other night that generally the provincial governments look after productive activities, and the federal government after the health of animals and the grading and marketing of products. I am in correspondence with all the western ministers of agriculture, not only with respect to these matters, but also with regard to the grading of hogs and other matters. I can assure my hon. friend that our veterinaries are not tripping over each other or over anybody else either there or anywhere else. I went up to Calgary last fall and attended the feeder show, and met Mr. Hargreaves, the chief inspector at Medicine Hat, and a number of the other veterinaries and a number of Alberta people, and I heard no suggestion except on the part of about half a dozen breeders that there was any over-manning or over-lapping. There are about half a dozen breeders in Alberta who have not very much use for our veterinaries; I do not know whether that is to the discredit of the veterinaries or not, but I rather think not. I think the work is being done well in spite of the opposition that is being met in a few quarters. I might say further that while the remark made by the hon. member for Portage la Prairie regarding our activities was made in a more or less playtful way, I can assure him that Alberta as a whole is just as sound on this question as any other province. There are a few kickers there; there are always a few Who will make quite a kick. Maybe that helps to keep the rest of us alive and on our toes. I have a great respect and a great appreciation for a healthy kick if there is anything to kick about, but when there is nothing to kick about, it is about time to
call them off, and that time has about arrived for that bunch.


Mr. COOTE:: Is it not a fact that The
Western Canada Live Stock Union two years ago at Victoria passed a resolution asking the government to discontinue testing beef
animals?


William Richard Motherwell: I think they did
something like that at the tail end of the convention when nearly everyone had gone home or was checking out or something like that. My hon. friend knows how at the tail end of a convention, not only a farmers' convention but a convention of any kind, a resolution can be slipped through when nearly everybody has gone home. That is the way it was done there. But I do not see the hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader), here just now. He would give you a picturesque picture of what happened if he were let loose. But that never happened again. Very good care was taken that that resolution never got through the live stock union after that. It was simply a "put over." The associations of both Manitoba and Saskatchewan gathered together shortly after that, gave two or three war whoops, read the riot act to the officers of that organization, and told them that unless they conducted themselves a little differently the associations of other provinces would withdraw from the union altogether.


George Gibson Coote: I rather gathered from the
remarks of the minister that the Western Canada Live Stock Union was not very sound, and I was wondering what his definition of the word "sound" was. If "sound" means that you must always agree with the department here, even as to the proper method of testing cattle, of course those men were not "sound." I must admit that I do not know a great deal about this question of testing cattle for tuberculosis, but I do not think that even the minister would deny that they have killed thousands of beef animals as reactors, and after the cattle were slaughtered they could find no sign of disease in the animals.


William Richard Motherwell: No, I do not admit anything of the kind It is not a matter of what we think at all. This whole business is entirely voluntary as far as the live stock men are concerned. We do not force them to adopt this plan, we do not even suggest that they should go into it. The merits of the system are what appeal to the live stock men, and they voluntarily come to the government and ask that their herds be brought
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under the accredited system. I hope my hon. friend sees the distinction. Far from us forcing or imposing the system on anybody, their entrance into it is entirely and purely voluntary. However, the system possesses such undoubted value to the prospective buyer of live stock, at least dn western Canada thao the live stock men have laid down the condition that before an animal is put up for sale it must be tested and given a certificate of health. This is a regulation adopted by the live stock men themselves and not by the government. I hope my hon. friend the member for Maoleod1 (Mir. Coote) will understand the difference. We are not imposing anything czardike on the people at all. We are very glad to serve them in the matter of T. B., or anything else, if they make the request, that is all.


George Gibson Coote: I must say the minister has just used very different language from what he did a few moments ago when he told of reading the riot act to these poor people.


William Richard Motherwell: Well, my goodness! Is my hon .friend as deaf as myself? I was describing what the live stock associations of Manitoba and Saskatchewan did to the live stock union, not what we did. My hon. friend had better get a few more apples on the scene.


George Gibson Coote: Anything for a red herring.


William Richard Motherwell: There is no red herring being drawn across the trail here. Go on with your discussion on this question. We will not talk about apples; we will confine ourselves to a discussion on T.B. in cattle as long as my hon. friend likes.


Mr. McCONICA:: Does the department of hog grading come under this vote?


William Richard Motherwell: No.


Thomas Henry McConica: Does it, or does it not?


William Richard Motherwell: No, it does not,
but according to the arrangement the other night we intimated-I think in a moment of weakness-that the live stock question would be discussed under the vote for the Health of Animals branch. My hon. friends took advantage of it the other night in connection with experimental farms. However, we will let the matter go.


Thomas Henry McConica: Is the minister satisfied with the system followed by his department? I think the object is a very worthy one, but so far as my observation has gone the system is not attaining the end that is sought. We are grading hogs with the idea

of encouraging the farmer to raise a different type of hog, of enabling him to get a higher price for the select bacon type. Now, in the district where I live our hogs are sold to shippers.


William Richard Motherwell: Drovers?


Thomas Henry McConica: Yes. I have inquired
of hundreds of men, but I have never found a single farmer, with one exception, that ever got a cent more for his bacon type hog than he received for his other hogs. The grading is done at the stockyard, and if there is any extra money paid it goes to the drover and not to the farmer. So the department are not succeeding in their efforts to encourage the farmer to raise any different kind of hog. The system is wrong in its application, in some way or other, and I should like to know if there is any probability of its being changed in order to accomplish better results.


William Richard Motherwell: I think my hon. friend must have been absent the other night when that subject was discussed very well. However, what I said then will bear repeating possibly. The system is not a perfect one, in which respect it is like the system for combating T.B., but it is an attempt to do something along the line of grading. The correct system is that of grading hogs on the rail, but our country is too large, our abattoirs too far distant, our settlements too widely extended to adopt the plan just as it is followed in Denmark. However, we are trying to do the next best thing, and that is to introduce the principle. This grading is made in two classes-thick smooths and selects. The other grading is a matter of arrangements between the buyer 10 p.m. and seller. The reason the average farmer who sells to the drover does not receive the advantages he should is that the drover buys on a flat rate basis. He does not grade the hogs, he buys them at a flat rate, and if he happens to get any selects among his purchases he is in that much, there is no doubt about that. But the same thing could be said in regard to wheat or any other product, if the farmer refuses to adopt up-to-date methods. In Saskatchewan when I left there they had over 400 live stock shipping associations-I do not remember whether my hon. friend had any in his constituency, I think he had-but there were that number of shipping associations acting in agreement. Under this system the farmers would telephone each other and have a day for shipping. They would bring in their hogs or their cattle, as the case might be, fill up a oar, and send one of their

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number down to Winnipeg or wherever the hogs were going. He would attend to all the details and he and his associates would get the benefit of the present system of grading. If the farmer does that he will get the same benefit, but if he sells to a drover he will not get that advantage. As the drover profits in the latter case he discourages the whole idea, and convinces the farmer that there is nothing to the grading system. As long as the farmer sells to the drover he certainly will not get the benefit of the grading. But whenever the farmers get together a carload and send a representative with the car down to Moose Jaw or Winnipeg, or whatever point the hogs are intended for, they will get the benefit of the grade, to the extent sometimes of 10 per cent in the case of selects over the other type. Very little attention was paid to breeding bacon hogs the last few years; especially during the war, a great many of our hogs were of the fat chunky type, not of the bacon type. It is the type of animal which makes bacon that commands the price and meets the competition in the British market. But the department has not been imposing its will on the country. This plan was adopted by the Department of Agriculture, in conjunction with the Hog Breeders' Association in the fall of 1921. My predecessor arranged the plan I believe in this system, and neither the credit, nor the blame if there be any, shoifld be ascribed to me. However I want to associate myself with the men who worked it out. I believe it is a step in the right direction, and that it accomplishes some good for those that it has reached. Those whom the system has not reached do nothing to help themselves; they sell in the old way to the drover. I do not know how we are going to reach those.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: The minister said that
the proper place to grade bacon is on the rail. Probably that is where the difficulty lies with respect to hog grading at the present time. The producer of hogs, whether he sells them to a drover and they are sold by that drover to the abattoir, or whether he ships them co-operatively, as was spoken of by the minister, is molt satisfied with the grading as it is at present being carried out. I could tell the minister of a district where the people have .what they believe to be the true bacon type of hog. When this regulation became effective, they got rid of their lard type of hog and purchased the Yorkshire breed of hogs which, I believe, the minister will admit is a bacon type. Shipping co-operatively, however, they are not getting
more than one, two or three per cent of select hogs out of a carload. I believe the producers of hogs in this country are fully alive to the fact that we want to produce a first-class bacon hog if we are going to get the best price in the British market, but the producer when he produces that hog wants to know that he is going to get -fair treatment at the handls of the grader. The only way to do that is not to kick this thing overboard, but to follow it through and to have these hogs graded on the rail as the minister spoke of doing. Our cream is graded into the -creameries and our butter is graded out of the creameries. It seems to me that this matter will not be settled until the same percentage of No. 1 hogs goes into the abattoir and the producer is paid for that as No. 1 bacon goes out. Ilf the minister gave some thought to that phase of the question, he might find a remedy.


Mr. BEAUBIEN:: The minister said a moment ago that the drovers discourage the farmers as to the grading. There is no need of that, because the farmers are disgusted *with the grading proposition. I live in one of the oldest districts of Manitoba along the Red river where we have improved our hogs according to the instructions igiven by the different authorities on this subject, and we have produced bacon type hogs. But when the grader gets through with them, you do not get any bacon type, you get thick smooth. The farmers to-day are simply disgusted with this grading because they feel that the people who are taking advantage of this grading proposition are either the dealers or the packers. I know in my district the people are not going to raise any more bacon type hogs. They are going to raise thick, smooth hogs because they do not get any grade other than that even if they actually raise the better -grade.


William Richard Motherwell: They have the
option of raising any kind they like.


Charles-Philippe Beaubien: Yes, but no matter how select your hog may be, you are at the mercy of the grader there, and I know of carload after carload of bacon type hogs shipped under the co-operative system where, after the hogs were graded, the producers did not get any selects. All the farmers would get together and one man would take the hogs to the abattoir. It does not take a farmer of extraordinary intelligence to tell whether a hog is bacon type or not. The average farmer who raises hogs can tell, but if you -take the market returns in Winnipeg, you will find that the percentage of selects is very small.
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William Richard Motherwell: Possibly my hon. friend knows that this matter is going to be discussed before the committee on Agriculture on Tuesday morning and every opportunity will be given to thresh it out. In the meantime, I assume that the objection of my hon. friend and of the hon. member for Last Mountain (Mr. Johnston) is that the hog producers are at 'the mercy of the grader. You have to choose between being at the mercy of the grader and being at the mercy of the packer. Which will you choose? Does the hon. member suggest that the graders are not competent?


Charles-Philippe Beaubien: It seems so by the way they grade some of the hogs I have seen them grade.


William Richard Motherwell: I am afraid that
will bring us back to the Civil Service Commission.


Charles-Philippe Beaubien: Then abolish the Civil Service Commission.


William Richard Motherwell: I do not wish to pass the buck on to them, but in this case I do not think the fault is that of the commission. It is a matter of opinion what constitutes a select bacon hog. There have been very few complaints as regards the character of the graders, and I think they are a capable set of men. The farmers have been accustomed to raising any kind of hog and they do not like not only to have to grade an animal, but to feed at to get it into the select class. Any grading system is objectionable to people whose article is of low quality. If we cannot get into the top grade of wheat, you know how disappointed we are. Remember what disgust there was at the grades of wheat this last fall. Remember what objections were raised to the grading of cream at first. I remember when we started grading in Saskatchewan, many people took their cans out of the creamery and sent their cans down to the Crescent creamery at Winnipeg or Brandon. After a while, they came back. We shall not do our best in the matter of production of hogs or anything else until we realize that in order to get the top price we must have the top grade. If people do not want the top grade or the top money, this is a free country and they can do what they like. In the corn district of western Ontario, they find that it pays them better to raise the fat hog, and they deliberately do that because they are in a com country.


John Frederick Johnston: I think the minister has put bis finger on the spot when he says that the right place to grade bacon is on the

rail. It might be that the proper remedy for the trouble is to grade the bacon there and not on foot at all. Is there any record as to the quantity of No. 1 bacon coming out of any particular abattoir in the country?


William Richard Motherwell: No, but we have pretty well under way arrangements for grading the bacon. I spoke of it the other night. We have a gentleman over in the Old Country now on the Imperial Marketing committee. When he is through with that, he will go into a further investigation as to the best kind of grades to make to suit the market. It was the first duty to grade the live hog. We cannot grade it on the rail very well in Canada. In Denmark a farmer takes his hogs to the abattoir, goes down town and does his shopping, and in a few hours there is the animal on the rail graded and he gets his money, just as we used to take grist to the mill and in a few hours get the flour back.


Mr. GOULD:: A few years ago the country was filled with pamphlets instructing the farmers to raise bacon hogs that would weigh 190 pounds. It was represented' that this made the ideal Wiltshire side and many farmers attempted to produce that kind of hog. Much discontent, however, prevails throughout the country amongst farmers who raise the hogs, the people who handle the co-operative shipments and even the drovers who take the hogs down to the market. There was so much protest made that the department raised the weight of the select bacon hog to 220 pounds.


William Richard Motherwell: Two hundred and
ten pounds.


Oliver Robert Gould: Did this discriminating individual, living in England, advise the minister that it would 'be ail right to raise the weight from 190 to 210 pounds, and if so, why were. the instructions so positive in the first pamphlets that were issued? I do not think the discriminating individual living in England, when he sees his slice of bacon on his plate, can distinguish a difference of five, ten or twenty pounds in a hog. The people are objecting that an individual is required to produce in a bacon type a hog that weighs exactly 210 pounds, but the man on the farm who raises the hog is obliged to put his judgment against the scales in the city of Winnipeg. He has a litter of eight or nine pigs and he guesses at the opportune time to send those pigs to the market. The minister knows full well that a great many people in the west live very many miles from the railway or shipping point, and they

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cannot afford to divide up that litter of hogs; and yet a matter of 4 or 5 pounds of difference in the weight of hogs will penalise that individual $1 per hundred. They will be graded thick smooth, and I think either the cut or the penalty is too great, or the grade is too severe, possibly both. Shortly before I left home I was returning from Winnipeg. Practically all the shippers who live on my line of railway, who go to Winnipeg, were on the train, and the subject of hog grading was the paramount discussion, and naturally it centred around me-what attitude did I take? One old grey whiskered man was in the party and he had had a hard time, but he said "Doc Tolmie is a good old scout. He knows what he is doing". He could not justify the grading but he justified Doc Tolmie. But the people are absolutely dissatisfied with the prices and the system of hog grading and the discrimination shown. I could cite the case of the Watsons-possibly the minister knows of them-living south of Manor, great cattle breeders, who have been on record as having shown cattle at Regina and shipping overseas a number of years. They did secure the type of hogs demanded. I saw a litter of pigs owned by them taken in. I saw them in the yard at Winnipeg and no one could discriminate or see any difference in the hogs by looking at them. I think the scales could scarcely determine the difference. Yet Mr. Watson received one select hog out of the nine, and it was the talk of the whole yard that he was abused, and I really believe it. It is my opinion that unless there is an easing of the principle of grading the people are justified in paying no attention whatever to the grading proposition, or to the attempt to raise that type of hog. If the 190 pound hog was the typical and only hog that would produce the Wiltshire side in 1922, why was it that a year or so afterward we found that a 210 pound hog would make the ideal Wiltshire?


William Richard Motherwell: It was in response to the representation made by many farmers. It was a sort, of dividing and harmonizing of interests. The average grower of hogs felt that he could feed hogs to better advantage at 210 pounds, and it was felt it was a sort of compromise, and so it was raised.


Oliver Robert Gould: Am I right in presuming that if the protest is loud enough there may be another change-that is a change between the select hog and the smooth thick hog, or a discrimination between the hog which weighs 210 pounds and the one which weighs 214 pounds? But the owner of the hog that
is four pounds over is penalized by sacrificing $1 per hundred pounds. I think some of the unrest in this regard could be settled if this discrimination were done away with. A graduated scale such as the minister referred to in the case of wheat might answer the purpose. Let us have a percentage of that, say 25 cents for the hog that weighs five or ten pounds more. A man has to use his judgment by looking at the hog and placing his judgment against the scale weight. He has no control over the. trip to his destination, and by the time the train arrives, his hogs might lose or gain on the trip. It generally takes two days to get a hog down to Winnipeg, depending on the circumstances, but the man who owns the hog pays the full toll and takes all the risk. Therefore I do not think the price should be so discriminatory against the man who is only endeavouring to comply with the regulations with regard to the shipping of the hogs.


Daniel Webster Warner: Will the minister tell us whether there is any record of the hogs going into the packing plant that get the grade for Wiltshire sides?


William Richard Motherwell: No.


Daniel Webster Warner: No record kept-


William Richard Motherwell: There is a record of all the grades, but not of the bacon. We are not grading bacon yet.


Daniel Webster Warner: If there is a record kept of the number of hogs that get the Wiltshire grade in going into the plant, and the amount of Wiltshire sides sent out of the plant, there is no reason for any quibbling over the grading. We can keep a direct check on it in that way, and I would advise the minister, if it is possible, and as soon as possible to see that there is a record kept of all the hogs that go to the packing plants and get the Wiltshire side grade, and of all the Wiltshire sides going out of the packing plants, that, we may be able to check up and ascertain when the grading is done satisfactorily. I know there is a great deal of dissatisfaction and discouragement. The people who are raising hogs feel that no matter what the quality is they are not getting the Wiltshire grade, when they are entitled to it.	We
want to encourage production of more of the very best quality .possible, and I think that with a small outlay, to keep a check on the hogs that get the Wiltshire grade going into the plant and the amount of Wiltshire pork going out of the plant, we could get at it in a reasonable and intelligent way. and perhaps through the use of this method we will
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be able to give encouragement to the people who are trying to raise this kind of hog. It is a very hard thing to do with the breed of hogs we have. It would take some time at the best, but I think that that one thing would give more encouragement than all the talking to the people that the department can do through their agents. Having a check on it and letting the people know they are getting a square deal will help to encourage production.


William Richard Motherwell: Referring to the remarks of my hon. friend from Assiniboia (Mr. Gould), the grading of hogs in principle is not very much different from the grading of any other product. It is more difficult to carry out, but the principle is the same and you have to have an arbitrary point between grades. The situation is that when you miss one grade and drop into another you drop some money. When you drop a grade in wheat you drop a whole lot-10 or 15 cents between the low grade.


Oliver Robert Gould: We drop a dollar in one grade on the hog.


William Richard Motherwell: That is a cent a pound. That is not as much proportionately as fifteen or twenty cents on wheat. You have to have an arbitrary point of demarcation between one point and another.


Oliver Robert Gould: Surely a cent a pound on pork is a much greater drop than ten or fifteen cents on 60 pounds of wheat.


William Richard Motherwell: That is neither here nor there. You have to have an arbitrary rate. We started out with a weight 160 to 210 pounds. That was changed from 170 to 220 pounds, a sort of compromise. My hon. friend wanted to know whether, if a vigorous kick were made, we would make a change. When you get into the heavier animals you would not have the bacon type. We think we have gone just as far as we can without destroying the grade that is desired abroad. If my hon. friend would just simply imagine that it is something else he is more familiar with-grain-he will acknowledge that you cannot depart from any grading system. This involves exactly what 'he is complaining of. The only way it can be avoided is by having a straight sample market where one man dickers with another. Once you begin to grade, you must have an arbitrary line, and the moment you drop out of one grade into the lower you drop money. If it only made 5 per cent difference it would take an expert to tell it. Besides, nobody but the buyer sets the price; the market says what the grade

will bring, not the grader. The packer comes along and is ready to give 10 per cent more for that kind of animal. You wonder why he will not give more, but that is what it is worth to him who is converting the raw product into the finished article to compete with other countries. Let me read the description of select bacon hogs:
Select bacon: hogs weighing 170 to 220 pounds at stockyards and abattoirs, or hogs weighing 170 to 220 pounds at local shipping points and at such other points as may be designated from time to time; of a type and finish indicating suitability for the production of choice bacon or Wiltshire sides for export. Jowl and shoulder light and smooth; back from neck to tail evenly fleshed; side long, medium depth, dropping reasonably straight from back; ham full; good general finish; no excess fat.
It takes a bird of a hog to comply with that description. You might have a heavy shoulder and heavy neck animal with short side and fat hams; that would not do at all. The owner of any product is always a little partial towards it just as we are partial to our own children. Therefore it would not be safe to leave the grading to the owner; it has to be done by some impartial individual, and it takes an expert. These graders become so familiar with their work that although the animals pass by them quickly their judgment is very seldom challenged. I have been well pleased with any of these graders whom I have seen at work. I know the difficulty I had in converting myself from the old-fashioned idea I got when a youth down in this province. We used to think a hog was not ready for the knife until it was so fat that you had to call it three or four times before it would get up. Some education is needed to get that idea out of a man in favour of something that looks to him more like a greyhound-a thin, smooth animal, with long sides-where the value is-and low shoulders 

where the low price is-and a light neck. I am afraid a great many farmers are setting up the judgment of their youth against the new demand; they .want to make the grade fit their hog, instead of making their hog fit the grade. I had the same difficulty myself, and it is only in the last ten years that I have paid much attention to the matter at all. I am in correspondence with the provincial ministers of agriculture, on this very thing, asking them if they have any suggestions to make to improve conditions-Do they agree with the principle? If so, what details should be changed to make it more acceptable to the farmer? If anybody does not want to comply with the grading, well, this is a free country and he can grow anything from a wild boar to a razorback, but if he wants to get the price he must raise select bacon hogs.

Supply-Agricul ture


Daniel Webster Warner: I asked the minister if
he thought it possible to keep a record of the hogs going into the plant getting the Wiltshire side grade and the pork going out of the plant.


William Richard Motherwell: I overlooked that
question. When we come to grade the bacon, yes; but at present the grading does not go past the live hog. We are working on the system of bacon grading now. In a few months we hope to have it ready, and then we will have, a check on the amount that goes in and the amount that comes out. But make no mistake, when we put that on there will have to be a few more men, and this increase of staff will bring a few more complaints from some people that we are blowing in too much money for the work. It must be understood that if we are going to give service we must pay the price.


Daniel Webster Warner: It is not satisfactory at
the present time, so I am glad to hear the minister is going to see the work will be done in a better way.


William Richard Motherwell: It is a gradual
evolution towards betterment.


Oliver Robert Gould: When on my feet before I
do not think I said anything which should cause the minister to think that I object to the principle of grading.


William Richard Motherwell: I do not think
you did.


Oliver Robert Gould: I do not object to the principle of grading although I notice it is very fashionable at the present time to grade the farmers' stuff as it leaves him, but it is not as fashionable to grade the stuff which the farmer has to buy. I should like to see the same activity and persistence in the other departments of the government to grade the materials which I have to buy as is shown in the grading of materials which I have to sell. The minister read to the committee the type of hog which makes the Wiltshire sides, and one of the items was "not much fat."


William Richard Motherwell: No excess fat.


Oliver Robert Gould: Not enough fat to put in
your lard pail at all.
Mr, MOTHERWELL:	Very little.


Oliver Robert Gould: The market has been stolen by the Cottolene people, the people whom the minister two years ago scolded so severely because of their product entering into the manufacture of oleomargarine, but he has handed over the shortening market to these same people.


William Richard Motherwell: There will always be enough fat hogs to produce lard.


Oliver Robert Gould: Possibly, but at the present
time I notice the lard pails are particularly low, and I have to go into the butcher shop to buy cottolene or crisco, which have taken the place of the real, genuine old lard that helped to make the genuine old doughnuts "like mother used to make," and which now are denied us through the activities of the Department of Agriculture.


William Richard Motherwell: We will have to
get oleo back then to make doughnuts.


Oliver Robert Gould: The minister must recognize how difficult it is for the farmer taking the chance on his own judgment to get his hogs to the Winnipeg market and have them come within this narrow margin of weight. It may be a true type that was bred properly and ordinarily would have conformed to the weight requirement had the facilities for getting to market been as they should be. But something happened; the hog was longer on the road than it should have been, or it may have been fed, with the result that it weighed a pound more than it should have weighed and the owner loses one cent a pound on that account. There is an argument in favour of the man who has made an honest attempt to turn out the proper type of hog. The people in my part of the country are dissatisfied with the principle of hog grading as it is now carried out.


William Richard Motherwell: My hon. friend approves, I understand, of the principle of grading. What changes would he suggest in detail?


Oliver Robert Gould: I would be as broad in
my interpretation of what the change should be as the minister was when he raised the weight from 190 to 210 pounds. If license was shown to that extent when that change was made, then I think a further license might be shown in determining what the weight and the status of the bacon hog should be at the present time.


William Richard Motherwell: The market has to set the price.


Oliver Robert Gould: I do suggest the advisability of grading bacon out. I believe that the abattoirs or storage houses that check in these supposed thick smooths and bacon hogs are sending out more Wiltshire sides than they take in. I think it is the business of the government to know that and to see that the people are informed generally of the condition of affairs in that regard.

Supply-Agriculture


Mr. TOLMIE:: This matter of hog grading is one in which everyone is interested. I am sorry to hear from the hon. member (Mr. Gould) that there is a shortage in the doughnut crop as the result of the grading regulations; but it appears to be largely a matter of education. We cannot hope to consume all the hogs that we grow in this country and we cannot hope to market them in those markets that are open to us in the face of the competition from other countries unless we produce the kind of bacon they want. It is easier to do that than to change their ideas of what they want. I would like to commend the minister for the work he is carrying on in his agricultural committee in connection with the giving of addresses by experts of the department. I understand there is to be an address on the bacon hog and hog grading next week.


William Richard Motherwell: Tuesday.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Why not follow that up with a live hog demonstration, either at the packing house over in Hull or at the experimental farm, so that all the mesmfoeiB of the House of Commons who take a keen interest in .this matter may have the opportunity to see an actual demonstration of what the bacon hog is?


William Richard Motherwell: I shall be very glad to do that.


John Jabez Thurston: There has been so much criticism of hog grading and the types of grades set out by the department that I cannot help thinking that a little support should be given to the system or to the grades as at present established, by one who feels that he knows what he is talking about. I happen to have been connected with this hog grading work-


Charles-Philippe Beaubien: Does the hon. member suggest that those who spoke against the grades did not know what they were talking about?


John Jabez Thurston: Not at all, but I claim that I know what I am talking about when I support .the grades that have been established.
I was interested in the agitation for the grading of hogs for some years before it was adopted and in several conferences with representatives of the packing plants of Ontario. We have demonstrated at our local shipping point at home that the farm there is receiving a benefit from the system, because os a result of it, we are getting a premium ranging from $40 to $70 on every week's shipment.


William Richard Motherwell: What percentage
goes "select?"
IMr. Gould.]


John Jabez Thurston: It varies. When we first started to grade, our loads ranged from 12 to 15 per cent-12 was the lowest. We have gained from 12 per cent to 58, to my knowledge, and it may have increased within the last week or two. We have done that in a matter of eight or nine months. It is not hard to prodhlce a hog that will Comply with the grades laid down by the department. Care has to be taken, in the breeding, and particularly in the feeding in the early months of the life of .the hog. It is when the hog is young that the hog is made. You cannot raise hogs in Ontario to-day by letting them grow themselves; they have to foe grown just the same as any other animal.


William Richard Motherwell: Do you dairy as
well?


John Jabez Thurston: Yes. You cannot profitably raise hogs without keeping milch cows. I hope that the campaign of hog grading will continue to the point that different hon. members have suggested, and that we will have an actual check or report on the bacon as it leaves the plant. I understand that we are allowing a great deal of American bacon to be .brought into Canada, cured here 'and sold in Great Britain. I have tried to get a copy of the mark that is stamped on the bacon but I am told that the words "Canadian cured" appear in rather large letters and "American bacon" in small letters, and that the bacon is frequently sold in Great Britain as Canadian bacon. If we are to spend a great deal of money and time ito establish our reputation as a bacon producing country we should have our markets very closely watched to see that no one else cuts in on us. I would like to be certain that this American bacon is not injuring the reputation of our Canadian bacon in Great Britain.


William Richard Motherwell: There was a general impression that during the war the reputation of our bacon was injured a little by the American bacon that my hon. friend speaks about; and we may have hurt it a little ourselves during that period. A very large amount of this bacon comes in-about 25,000,000 pounds a year. That is brought into the packing houses. It is kept separate and put into separate vats. It is cured separately, and shipped out separately. It is one of the duties of the meat inspector to see that it is shipped out separately and marked separately, every side being marked " U.S. product." I do not think there is any abuse now. The only thing that I have felt anxious about was this:	When Canadian packers

Supply-Agriculture
could not get the amount of Canadian bacon wanted, instead1 of pressing for it and by offering a fair price encouraging the Canadian farmer, they turned around and bought from the United States in order to keep their plant going. You cannot blame them for that; but if that were not done, they would be more likely to pay a better price and encourage bacon production here. The idea is to make it so attractive that they could not afford to miss it. If I were a packer, I presume I would want to keep my plantrunning at full capacity, and the only way for us to stop them importing is to raise more bacon. I know fanners do not like anybody suggesting anything to them about hogs, because they feel they have been fooled on hogs so often they want to be left alone; but you cannot blame the packer for importing if he cannot get enough at home to keep his plant running.


John Jabez Thurston: I think it would be
wise for our customs officials or for the department to see that the words " Canada " and " Canadian " are not allowed to go on the packages or on American meat shipped in here.


William Richard Motherwell: Those words are
not allowed.


John Jabez Thurston: Not even "Canadian
cured." Do not let the words Canada or Canadian appear on it at all.


William Richard Motherwell: I have heard it
stated that " Canadian -cured " is on it, but I am sure it is not.


Alfred Speakman: To return to the item before us, I am quite sure the minister in his zeal for economy would welcome any suggestion which, if feasible, would assist him in reducing the cost of administration of this and similar acts without impairing the efficiency of the service. In answer to a question by the hon. member for Victoria, the minister stated there was no over-lapping of the work of the veterinaries employed in this department and those who might be employed by provincial departments. I want to suggest to him that it might be possible in a great many cases to use some of the local veterinaries for that work. We have a considerable staff of men employed in this business, and not only are they on salary but they also have to travel long distances, at considerable expense, to reach the scene of their operations. I believe,-as a matter of fact I know from personal observation that there are a great many local veterinaries in the neighbourhood, competent men who for 5&i
a comparatively small fee would perform that work. I believe that is a suggestion that is worth considering. I -have heard it stated, not only by the local veterinaries but by farmers in the neighbourhood-and I have myself seen it-that men have travelled upwards of one hundred miles by train and by car to do that work, at great expense for travelling and involving a loss of time, which means that they can do comparatively little work. I would like the minister to consider that suggestion.
I think the same principle -might be applied in connection with some of the other acts; for instance the Live Stock Act; I would not have referred to that if it had not been mentioned here to-night. There are three or four items; take these stallion clubs, for example. I understand that in order to qualify, a horse must be subjected to an inspection by a qualified horseman in order to ascertain whether the animal is of. the proper type. I had a very interesting experience in -the city of Calgary not very long ago. I was in the Pa-lliser hotel and saw there a gentleman very comfortably ensconced. I said to one of my friends. "Do you know who that man is?" "Yes," he said "he is a horseman from Ontario. He has come up to inspect stallions for stallion clubs." " What is the idea?" I asked. "Oh," he said "we haven't good enough horsemen in Alberta to do the work, I presume." I want to suggest to the minister that in many cases you will find! in Alberta, not in the same -district, for it is not always advisable to use 'a man in the same district, but in the neighbourhood horsemen as well qualified to do this work as any horseman anywhere else in Canada. They would be -glad to do it for a comparatively small fee for each examination. If that can be done, and of course I am prepared to listen with an open mind to any reasons why it cannot be done, I am quite certain it would! result in a considerable reduction in staff, and a consequent decrease in salary and travelling expenses and result in the case of examination of horses in a great reduction of fees and expenses charged by the men who do the inspection. I have men in my own district who I know are just as well qualified to pass on the pedigree and type of horse required as any man imported to do the work. They could examine a horse for $10, whereas I am sure my friend in the Palliser hotel would have charged at least $100 in fees and expenses to do the same work. I would like the minister to consider that, and ascertain if some system of that sort could not be put -into force in connection with many
Supply-A gricul ture

of these acts. We have ,a great many grading acts now, and we will probably have more. I am not against grading acts; I would like to see the grading acts lived up to and our products standardized and improved and the health of every animal maintained, and we should have competent men to see they are maintained; but I would suggest that as we are continually multiplying these services, which means a continual increase in the staff employed, and a continual increase in expenditure, some such system as I suggest might in many cases be put into force. It would materially reduce the cost without impairing in any way the efficiency of the work done; I would be very sorry to see its efficiency in any way impaired.


William Richard Motherwell: I think the remarks of my hon. friend are worthy of some notice. His suggestions look quite plausible, but we have found in actual practice that it is better to have an outside examiner of these horses, just as it is better to have outside judges at fairs on account of the keen competition there is among the stock men. An outside examiner will be more likely to give a fair (and unbiased examination, other things being equal, than the local man who is influenced by his home environment and associations, and may be persuaded into giving not quite as fair a judgment on the merits of the animal.


Alfred Speakman: I was not suggesting
that a man in the district in which the club was formed should do that work. I am quite aware that local circumstances might influence his judgment, but a man could be brought in from a district not so very far away to do it.


William Richard Motherwell: That often happens, I believe. In the instance my hon. friend mentions, the man might have come from Ontario, but we have no desire to pay heavy travelling expenses if we can get a good man locally.
My hon. friend's other point about local veterinaries also sounds plausible, but our certificate, whether it is on our meats or any other product, and with regard to freedom from tuberculosis, our inspection certificates of all kinds in order to have value must be given by our own men. I think that is a condition in other countries also. It must be men under the control and in the pay of the federal government. Our certificate would have very little weight unless it was given by our own men; in fact we have to comply with the conditions laid down by other countries in this respect. If those

countries want their bacon certified it must be marked by a federal veterinary. If the market wants our cattle to be certified free from T.B. that certification must be done by an appointee of the federal government. We do not create these terms, other countries insist on them, and it is our duty to comply with these demands just as it is in the matter of sending a veterinary over to the Old Country with every consignment of cattle. Under these conditions, therefore, we are not permitted to use the services of local men, particularly in the case of exportations to the overseas market. As to the men who are employed by the federal department I- must refer hon. gentlemen to the Hunter building-that is the place where the positions go through. We have not advertised for any veterinaries recently; there is a waiting list of about forty or more of men who have qualified. There may be some men from Alberta, I think there are some from Saskatchewan, on that list, but the general understanding is that appointments from this list will be made on the basis of eligibility. Not only that, but the order with regard to certificates precludes the possibility of appointing local men.


Alfred Speakman: I think the minister is mistaken in his conception of my suggestion in one respect. I am not objecting to veterinaries being appointed from other provinces and stationed permanently in Alberta, I am not objecting because they are not Alberta vets, but I was suggesting that it might be possible to have these men examined by the federal department and placed, if you like, on part time, as is done in many departments of the government.


William Richard Motherwell: Yes, we do that.


Alfred Speakman: These part time men would be remunerated on the fee system, but would still be federal employees who would comply with the provisions of the act.


William Richard Motherwell: We have that system now.


Alfred Speakman: I was suggesting you should extend that system and pay these men on a per diem basis.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I wish to say one or two words in connection with the vote under consideration. The minister, with reference to the creation of isolation areas for the purpose of cleaning up tuberculosis, referred to Vancouver island and also to Prince Edward Island. The suggestion is a very excellent ODe for the reason the minister stated-that in both cases there are natural barriers, the areas can be easily isolated, and the needed isolation

Supply-Agriculture
can be maintained to the greatest possible extent. On Vancouver island a great deal of testing has already been done under the provincial government. There are a number of accredited herds there, and in addition to that we have perhaps one of the best Jersey herds and Jersey equipments in the whole of Canada. So that the department when it undertakes that work, will find the conditions very good to begin with.
The minister has spoken about the provincial aid that his department should receive in carrying on the work of the Health of Animals branch. While I quite agree that that aid would be an advantage, we must guard carefully what has been built up in connection with that branch. It stands out by itself as one of the best organizations of its kind in the world, created largely on a splendid foundation laid by the late Dr. J. G. Rutherford, a man whom we all respected, and whom we all acknowledge to have been, perhaps, one of the ablest men in his profession in the country. We have attained a position that is unique from the point of view of the success that has been achieved. Perhaps the strongest arguments that were used before the embargo commission in the Old Country were first our freedom from animal contagious disease, and, in the second place, our ability to continue to protect the herds erf Canada against contagious disease. iSoi that in any arrangement that is made with any province I would advise the careful guarding of the authority of the federal Health of Animals branch in order that that authority may remain unimpaired. That branch has succeeded in the past, it is succeeding at the .present time, and gives every promise of being able to succeed in the future.
There is a point I should like to refer to for a moment, and that is the cutting down of the amount of compensation paid. The compensation, as I understand it, is a means of paying to the man who is losing the diseased cattle a certain amount of remuneration so as to diminish his loss. We found at the beginning that all this health of animals work was opposed, just as hog grading is being opposed to-day, but when people began to realize the value of the work a fair compensation was a tremendous aid1 to the government in carrying on its operations. It is rather dangerous to lower your compensation too much. In the case of the small farmer who has a small grade herd, after he has raised his steer and his heifer to the yearling stage I do not see just what difference it will make. The value of both animals is practically the same whether
yearlings or two year olds; and I think he should have compensation coming to him just as much in the one case as in the other; I am quite sure that he suffered a loss in both cases.
It has been mentioned to-night in the discussion that there was somewhat of an inclination to get away from the splendid work carried on by the Health of Animals branch at one of the meetings in the west during the past year. If that be so I think that tendency should be very strongly opposed. We find in all districts, and I have had a personal experience in this connection, that in applying the regulations of the Health of Animals branch there is always a group that will oppose you strongly under all conditions; and you simply have to go after them with a stiff upper lip and put the regulations through. If the regulations are properly applied the opponents will, in the course of time, come to recognize the value of them.
There is one criticism I am going to make -although I am not going to say it is the only one I should like to offer-and that is of the policy of spending large amounts
11 p.m. of money on compensation while there is only a very small sum expended on research work. It appears to me that research work-good and extensive research work-should be the foundation of the entire operations of the Health of Animals branch to a very great extent, and that by carrying on this research work, by learning the very best method of conducting experiments with the proper plant, you will place yourself in a position, after a while, to avoid a great deal of the expenditure that is now made in the way of compensation. I would strongly urge upon the government that these stations be extended so as to afford the experts that you have at the present time, and very excellent men they are, a fair opportunity of developing along these lines, remembering that trying to economize will not make the germs inactive; they will continue to keep busy under all circumstances, and so there must be adequate appropriations to carry on the work in a proper way.
Before closing I should like to ask the minister one question:	Did I understand him to
say, when discussing the Calmette vaccine that this has not reached a sufficiently high standard of perfection to be adopted as a general method of eradicating tuberculosis?


William Richard Motherwell: We are experimenting, but we could not, as yet, recommend any general application.
Supply-A griculture


Simon Fraser Tolmie: From the knowledge you
have acquired, and in the opinion of your experts, it has not yet reached that stage?


William Richard Motherwell: That is right.


Mr. MILNE:: What amount of money is
being spent in research work with the object of preventing or stamping out these diseases?


William Richard Motherwell: I think I read the item out. "Pathological division, $55,000."


Harry Leader: I ask the minister why
he has undertaken to exempt cattle suffering fronj. lump jaw from any -compensation if they react to the tuberculin test? I, as a breeder and live stock man do not take any serious objection to the fact that this is applied to Steers. But for the life of me I cannot, see why they apply this to cattle suffering from lump jaw. I took occasion to write to the Veterinary Inspector General to see if there was any connection between lump jaw and tuberculosis. One clause in his letter reads:
The whole trouble with lump jaw is that the cases are not promptly dealt with. In cases that are promptly dealt with and recover, there is no sign of any enlargement. This disease has no bearing at all upon tuberculosis.
If a breeder is unfortunate enough to have a very valuable female animal contract lump jaw, she gets over it, she has had no tuberculosis and there is no scar left from her having had lump jaw, why should the breeder of that animal be penalized to the extent that he will not get compensation for her if she reacts to the tuberculin test? The regulations call for her destruction, but there is no compensation. Why is that regulation in effect?


William Richard Motherwell: When this disease
is in its incipient stage and can be taken care of, I think the intention is not to apply the regulation to that stage; but when the disease gets so far advanced, objectionable and repulsive that the animal should not be there at all, we want the regulation to apply to that. In the early stages we can give compensation.


Harry Leader: I want that clearly brought out. In the incipient stage where there are no sufficient signs, compensation would not be withheld in case of a reaction?


William Richard Motherwell: No.


Milton Neil Campbell: Has the minister control over insurance rates charged by live stock commission agents? They Charge an insurance rate on each car, the premium running from eight to ten, to twelve dollars a car, to protect them against probable losses from

animals that may fail to pass the test. Many complaints are made by farmers and drovers that a very much larger -amount is paid in than the actual value of the losses. There are hundreds of cars on which I am assured there are no losses at all, and yet this amount of eight, ten or twelve dollars is paid on every one of them. Those -men should be compelled to -furnish a statement -showing their actual losses and the value as against the amount that they collect in insurance premiums.


William Richard Motherwell: That is a pretty old question to open up at this time of the evening. I think the principle of charging a flat rate for insurance to take care of disease is bad, because it is charging the man with the clean stock just the same as the man with dirty stock. But in the absence of any better system, the packers have been carrying this on for quite a long time. This question has been raised, as the hon. member for Victoria City (Mr. Tolmie) knows, at practically every live stock meeting that has been held for the last ten or twelve years and at every live stock union that has been held.


Milton Neil Campbell: The complaints I have heard in this regard are not because the men with the clean stock have to pay the same as those with the poor grade stock, but that a much larger amount is paid in than the packers actually lose. My suggestion is that these commission agents should be compelled to furnish statements showing the value of their actual losses as against the amounts they collect, because I believe they make a good deal of money out of those premiums.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Entomology, $20,000.
Simon Fraser Tolmie: We have had a pretty busy night; this is the end of the week, and most of our people have gone away. I think we have done pretty well.


Charles-Philippe Beaubien: This is Friday and tomorrow is a holiday. We might go on for another hour.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That is not reasonable.
We have bad an excellent discussion to-day just as we had on the previous item. The minister has carried three very large items running into about $5,000,000 besides some smaller items. I think he ought to be well satisfied with the day's work.
Progress reported.
On motion of -Mr. Beland the House adjourned at 11.10 pun.


CIVIL SERVICE RETIREMENTS
[Stage Direction]
[Statements presented by Hon. J. H. King (Kootenay, Minister of Public Works). See page 864]. SUMMARY OF RETIREMENTS UNDER THE PUBLIC SERVICE RETIREMENT ACT
Authorized by Order-in-Council, 1924
Department and Name
Is
Position to be filled?
Public Works- Allin, W. W.
Appleton, Edward, Ard, John	
Baillie, C. H	
Bambrick, Edward.
Bastien, J. A	
Batterton, Thos.. ..
D. Beatley, Jno. J....
Belanger, Jos	
Binks, Thos. C....
Bishop, Wm	
D. Bisson, Edouard____
Boivin, Francois__
Bottomley, W. C...
Bowman, Alex	
Brault, Louis	
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Position and Place
Caretaker, Bowmanville, Ont.
Plumber and Pipefitter, Toronto.
Caretaker, Whitby, Ont____
Fireman Labourer, Toronto.
Carpenter, Rideau Hall, Ottawa.
Fireman, Ottawa	
Messenger Clerk, Ottawa_
Watchman, Esquimalt Graving Dock, B.C. Roofer, Ottawa	
Labourer, Ottawa.
Clerk of Works, Gr. 2, Halifax.
Mason's Helper, Ottawa..
Agent Operator, Baie St. Paul, Que.
Watchman, Ottawa	
Fireman's Helper, Ottawa.. Elevator Operator, Montreal
Reasons
for
Retirement
Advanced age	
Physical disability.
Advanced age and ill health.
Advanced age and failing health. Advanced age...
Failing health..
Advanced age and failing health.
Ill health	
Ill health.
Advanced age	
Physical disability
Advanced age...
Advanced age i failing health.
Date of Retirement	Age at Re- tire- ment	No. of years ser- vice	Salary at time of Retire- ment	Average Salary last three years	Gratuity Sec. 3 (1)	Retiring Annuity Sec.3(2)	Retiring Gratuity See. 3 (3)$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.Nov. 1, 1924	69	20	780 00	1,080 00	180 00	360 00	plus all.	300 00	July 1, 1924	59	31	0 90	1,933 04	335 70	966 52	per hr.	Nov. 1, 1924	70	12	780 00	1,080 00	180 00	216 00	plus all.	300 00	July 1, 1924	71	33	960 00	960 00	160 00	480 00	Oct. 1, 1924	74	18	0 75	1,625 40	279 75	487 62	per hr.	May 1, 1924	65	14	75 00	1,010 33	150 00	235 74	per mo.	June 1, 1924	66	32	840 00	840 00	140 00	420 00	65	9	1 080 00	180 00	1,440 00 D.Jan. 11, 1924	57	16	0 75	279 75	1,119 00per hr.	May 1, 1924	73	19	0 45	1,024 93	167 85	324 56	per hr.	Sept. 1, 1924	81	13	1,680 00	1,680 00	280 00	364 00	62	14	0 45	167 85	1,342 80 D.per hr.	April 1, 1924	59	31	564 00	564 00	94 00	282 00	Nov. 1, 1924	69	14	960 00	960 00	160 00	224 00	Feb. 1, 1924	75	12	840 00	840 00	140 00	168 00	July 1, 1924	69	29	960 00	960 00	160 00	464 00	
>
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[Stage Direction]
to
C. S. Retirements

[Stage Direction]
Authorized by Order-in-Council, 1924
Department and Name
Public Works-Con.
Broadfoot, Geo	
Broadfoot, Mrs. M. M
Brodie, A. W	
Brossard, Telesphore. Charbonneau, Nap....
Chartrand, Chas	
Charrier, Alfred....
Chesley, Edward	
Chrystal, Alex	
Clancy, Martin	
Clarke, Norman	
Courbron, E	
Cohoon, Thos	
Connery, Wm	
Cragg, John	
Cyr, Edward	
Dalglish, G. M	
Is
Position to be filled?
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
No.
No.
Yes
No.
No.
Yes
Yes
No.
Yes
Yes
No.
Caretaker, Dauphin, Man...
Caretaker, Fergus, Ont	
Caretaker, Oshawa, Ont....
Messenger Clerk, Ottawa... Plumber's helper, Ottawa...
Carpenter, Ottawa	
Position and Place
Advanced age and failing health.
Advanced age....
Advanced age and failing health. Advanced age....
Watchman, Levis Dry Dock Quebec.
Operator lineman, Telegraph Point, B.C. Caretaker, Goderich, Ont..
Stationary Engineer, heating Gr. 2, Ottawa.
Telegraph agent operator Grosse Isle, Que.
Telegraph lineman, Port-neuf, Que.
Caretaker, Bridgewater. N.S.
Clerk of Works, Gr. 2, Toronto.
Cleaner and helper, Victoria.
General telegraph repairer, Esquimaux Point, B.C.
Construction foreman.
Reasons
for
Retirement
Advanced age and physical disability
Advanced age	
Advanced age and failing health. Abolition of position
Advanced age and ill health.
Advanced age.
Lack of employment
Advanced age.
Advanced age.
Abolition of position
Advanced age and ill health.
Advanced age	
Advanced age.
Date of Retirement	Age at Re- tire- ment	No. of years ser- vice	Salary at time of Retire- ment	Average Salary last three years	Gratuity Sec. 3 (1)	Retiring Annuity Sec. 3 (2)	Retiring Gratuity Sec. 3 (3)$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.Mar.	1,	1924	75	12	780 00	1,078 33	180 00	215 66	plus all.	300 00	Oct.	1,	1924	75	7	780 00	180 00	630 00plus all.	300 00	Nov.	1,	1924	74	18	780 00	1,080 00	180 00	324 00	plus all.	300 00	July	1,	1924	71	23	900 00	960 00	160 00	368 00	Sept.	1,	1924	67	25	0 65	1,454 26	242 45	605 94	per hr.	Nov.	1,	1924	68	23	0 75	1,554 16	279 75	595 76	per hr.	Mar.	21,	1924	70	12	960 00	960 00	160 00	192 00	July	1,	1924	57	5	1,800 00	300 00	750 00July	1,	1924	75	13	780 00	1,080 00	180 00	234 00	plus all.	300 00	Nov.	1,	1924	77	38	1,320 00	1,320 00	220 00	660 00	Oct.	1,	1923	71	30	600 00	600 00	100 00	300 00	Nov.	1,	1924	65	35	47 00	564 00	94 00	282 00	per mo.	Nov.	1,	1924	72	16	780 00	1,080 00	180 00	288 00	plus all.	300 00	Nov.	1,	1924	51	7	1,800 00	300 00	450 00April	1,	1924	68	13	900 00	900 00	150 00	195 00	Nov.	1,	1924	70	22	672 00	672 00	112 00	246 40	Nov.	1,	1924	66	24	5 00	1,563 33	265 00	625 33	per day	
Qa
[Stage Direction]
Daley, Robt	
Davis, H. Jas	
Delaney, John	
Dery, Jos	
Dionne, Prime	
Doucet, Jas. H....
Drapeau, Philippe. Dube, Evariste____
Dugal, Arthur	
Duguay, Mrs. L... Duguay, Placide... Dye, Benjamin
[Stage Direction]
Dyble, J. H	
D. Elford, Aaron	
Ellis, Riley	
Enright, J	
Eynouf, Geo. F -
Faulkner, Geo____
*Ferriman, W. J... Fleming, G. S-
Fletcher, Capt. H,
Fournier, Nap. C.
Yes
Yes
No.
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
Carpenter, Ottawa	
Elevator operator, Montreal Photographer, Ottawa	
Painter, Ottawa____
Carpenter, Ottawa.
Advanced age.
Physical disability. Abolition of position and decreasing efficiency
111 health	
Caretaker, Bathurst, N.B... N.B.
Draftsman, Ottawa	
Caretaker, Fraserville, Que
Stationary engineer, Ottawa
Agent operator, English Bay, Anticosti.
General repairer, Anticosti, Que.
Caretaker, North Battle-ford, Sask.
Caretaker, Sarnia, Ont. Elevator operator, Calgary. Caretaker, Milton, Ont
Advanced age....
Advanced age and failing health
Advanced age and failing eyesight. Advanced age....
Labourer, Ottawa. Labourer. Ottawa.
Labourer, Experimental Farm, Ottawa.
Plumber's helper, Ottawa...
District Superintendent, Government Telegraph Service, Gr. 2, White Horse, Y.T.
Master Tug "Point Gray".
Advanced age and failing health. Abolition of position
Abolition of position
111 health	
Advanced age and ill health. Advanced age and physical disability Advanced age	
Advanced age.
Advanced age and ill health.
Advanced age ...
Physical disability. Abolition of position
Inefficiency	
Carpenter, Ottawa.
June 16,
May 1, Nov. 1,
Nov. 1, May 1, July 1,
June 1, Nov. 1,
July 1, Nov. 1, Nov. 1, July 1,
Nov. 1, Aug. 1, Nov. 1,
Nov. 1, June 1, Nov. 1, Aug. 1, Feb. 1,
Mar. 1,
Advanced age and ill.
Nov. 1,
1924
1924
1924
1924
1924
1924
1924
1924
1924
1924
1924
70
54 82 77
76
25
55 64
68
69 63 74 54 60
70
17
32
35
6
21
9
11
24
20
0-75 per hr.
960 00 1,500 00
0 65 per hr.
0 75 per hr.
780 00 plus all.
300 00 1,560 00
780 00 plus all.
300 00 1,320 00
792 00
792 00
780 00 plus all.
300 00 1,080 00
960 00
780 00 plus all.
300 00 0 45 per hr.
0 45 per hr.
0 45 per hr.
0 65 per hr. 2,700 00 plus all.
240 00
170 00 plus all.
0 80 per day 0 75 per hr
1,636 75
960 00 1,500 00
1,454 93 1,629 40 1,080 00
1,543 33 1,080 00
1,320 00
1,080 00
1,080 00
799 13 855 40 1,429 13 2,940 00
2,329 09
1,615 02
297 75
160 00 250 00
242 45 279 75 180 00
260 00 180 00
220 00 132 00 132 00 180 00
180 00 160 00 180 00
167 85 167 85 167 85 242 45 490 00
388 80
279 75

436 46
160 00 750 00
727 46 461 46 324 00
771 66 252 00
660 00
198 00
378 00
146 51 156 82 714 57 1,176 00
465 81
538 34
396 00
1,280 00 D. 720 00
587 47
[Stage Direction]
w
C. S. Retirements

[Stage Direction]
Authorized by Order-in-Couneil, 1924
Department and Name
Public Works-Con.
Gagne, Edmond	
Gauvreau, Alex	
*Gauvreau, N. B	
Gent, Aaron	
Gervais, Guillaume....
Gingras, Eugene F....
Gordon, A. E	
Gore, W. J	
Gould, Capt. I. A....
Grace, P. J	
Granger, I	
Green, Michael Sec. 1
(2).
Gregory, Chas	
Guindon, Arthur	
Halpenny, J. F	
Hall, Richard	
Hall, R. P	
Hamlet, Oliver	
Ia
Position to be filled?
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Position and Place
Construction foreman, Mont-magny, Que.
Mason's helper, Ottawa..
Assistant engineer, New Westminster, B.C. Lineman, Gents, Vancouver Island, B.C.
Sign writer and painter. Ottawa.
Assistant tester of building material, Ottawa.
Fireman labourer, Ottawa.
Caretaker, Regina, Sask...
Dockmaster, Esquimalt, .. B.C.
Messenger clerk, Ottawa___
Fireman labourer, Ottawa.., Teamster, Rideau Hall, Ottawa.
Cleaner and helper, Toronto
Fireman, labourer, Ottawa., Caretaker, Carleton Place. Ont.
Sr. Inspector of dredges, Vancouver, B.C.
Operator lineman, Fort Selkirk, Y.T.
ing, gr. 1, Toronto.
Reasons
for
Retirement
Advanced age.
u v anceu age failing health. Advanced age...
Ill health. Ill health.
ill health, dvanced age ill health.
Advanced age. Advanced age.
failing health, i-dvanced age i ill health.
Advanced age_____
Physical disability..
Advanced age.. Ill health..
ill health.
Age	No.	Salary	Average	Date	at	of	at time	Salary	Gra-	Re-	RetiringOf	Re-	years	of	last	tuity	tiring	GratuityKetirement	tire-	ser-	Retire-	three	Sec. 3	Annuity	Sec. 3 (3)ment	vice	ment	years	U)	Sec.3(2)	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.Nov.	1.	1924	56	July	1,	1924	70	20	0 45	1,030 11	167 85	343 37	Nov.	per hr.	1,	1924	69	24	'2,580 00	2,580 00	430 00	1.032 00	Nov.	1.	1924	71	14	1,584 00	1,579 60	264 00	368 57	July	1,	1924	62	21	0 80	1.772 26	298 40	520 28	June	per hr.	1,	1924	62	31	2,100 00	2,100 00	350 00	1,050 00	Nov.	1.	1924	73	11	960 00	960 00	160 00	176 00	July	1.	1924	61	23	780 00 plus all.	1,080 00	180 00	414 00	300 00	April	5,	1924	77	25	2.400 00 plus all.	2,820 00	470 00	1,175 00	July	420 00	1,	1924	73	19	1,000 00	1,000 00	166 66	316 66	Sept.	1,	1924	65	22	960 00	960 00	160 00	352 00	Oct.	1,	1924	73	32	20 00	1,010 28	173 33	505 14	July	per week	1.	1924	66	20	900 00	900 00	150 00	300 00	July	1,	1924	73	26	960 00	960 00	160 00	416 00	July	1,	1924	66	32	780 00 plus all.	1,080 00	180 00	540 00	300 00	Nov.	1,	1942	74	11	2,580 00	2,563 33	430 00	469 94	Sept.	1,	1924	48	21	1.400 00 plus all.	1,983 55	340 00	694 24	50 00	July	per mo.	1,	1924	63	12	1,140 00	1,140 00	190 00	228 00	
Da
ft)
[Stage Direction]
Hampshire, Chas. C... Handy, Jos	
D. Hannan, H	
Hanley, Henry	
D. *Harvey, 0	
D. Hawley, E. A.
Hay, Jos	
Henderson, Em	
D. Hillas, Julius	
D. Hollington, Wm	
Horan, Jos. J	
Horwill, W. E	
Howell, Henry	
Jackson, F. N	
Jenkins, Wm	
Johnston, David	
Johnston, Mrs. M. Kcl.
Jones, John	
Jones, Thos	
Kearns, Jno	
Keays, Miss E. M	
Kilduff, P. A	
Kingston, J. S	
D. Knox, Thos	
Yes	July	i,	1924	64	35	1,680 00	1,680 00	280 00	840 00	Yes	Foreman painter, Rideau	Advanced age and	Nov.	i,	1924	67	26	0 75	1,684 00	279 75	729 73	Hall, Ottawa.	ill health.	per hr.	Yes	May	1,	1924	53	7	0 75	279 75	839 24 D.per hr.	Yes	Carpenter, Ottawa	Advanced age	Nov.	i,	1924	70	a	0 75	1,602 96	279 75	293 87	per hr.	Yes	Captain tug "Witherbee"....	Nov.	i,	1924	63	16	130 00	308 00	2,464 00 D.bro-	plus all.	ken	0 80	per-	per day	iods	Yes	Telegraph agent operator,	Ill health	Sept.	1,	1924	64	14	138 00	276 00	2,208 00 D.bro-	per mo.	ken	per-	iods	Yes	Stationary engineer, gr. 2,	Advanced age	Nov.	i,	1924	76	20	1.320 00	1,320 00	220 00	440 00	Winnipeg, Man.	Yes	District resident architect,	Advanced age	Nov.	i,	1924	87	31	3,000 00	3,000 00	500 00	1,500 00	Victoria, B.C.	Yes	i.	1924	51	12	0 65	242 45	1,454 70 D.per hr.	i,	2914	73	9	0 75	279 75	2,238 00 D.per hr.	Yes	1.	1924	43	4	0 75	279 75	per hr.	No	July	1,	1924	37	5	1,800 00	300 00	Yes	Carpenter, Ottawa	Advanced age and	Dec.	14,	1923	84	17	0 75	1,540 73	279 75	436 54	Deceasedill health.	per hr.	5-4-24.Yes	Telegraph agent operator,	Failing health	Oct.	1,	1924	54	22	1,980 00	1,980 00	330 00	726 00	Telegraph Creek, B.C.	Yes	Assistant foreman electri-	Ill health	Nov.	1.	1924	59	34	0 90	1,947 32	335 70	973 66	cian, Ottawa.	per hr.	Yes	Elevator Operator, Ottawa..	Advanced age and	June	16.	1924	72	13	960 00	960 00	160 00	208 00	failing health.	Yes	Telegraph agent operator,	Advanced age and	Nov.	1,	1924	66	12	1,500 00	1,500 00	250 00	300 00	Kelowna, B.C.	failing health.	No	July	1,	1922	81	Yes	Watchman, Toronto	Advanced age and	July	1,	1924	70	22	960 00	960 00	160 00	352 00	failing health.	Yes	Ill health	July	1,	1924	65	6	900 0C	150 0C	450 00toon.	Yes	Account clerk, telegraph ser-	Failing eyesight	Nov.	1,	1924	60	22	1,800 00	1,800 00	300 00	660 00	vice, Vancouver.	Yes	Elevator operator, Ottawa..	Advanced age	Nov.	1,	1924	65	31	960 00	960 00	160 00	480 00	No	Assistant mechanical en-	Advanced age and	May	1.	1924	71	12	2,580 00	2,466 66	430 00	493 33	gineer, Ottawa.	failing health.	Yes	Physical disability.	April	1,	1924	56	6	800 00	183 33	1,100 00 D.Ont.	plus. all.	300 00	
§
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CT>
C. S. Retirements

[Stage Direction]
Authorized by Order-in-Council, 1924
Department and Name	Is Position to be filled?	Position and Place	Reasons for Retirement	Date of Retirement	Age at Re- tire- ment	No. of years ser- vice	Salary at time of Retire- ment	Average Salary last three years	Gratuity Sec. 3 (1)	Retiring Annuity Sec. 3 (2)	Retiring Gratuity Sec. 3 (3)Public Works-Con.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.Labelle, F	Yes	Cleaner and helper, Montreal.	Advanced age	Nov. 1, 1924	73	12	900 00	900 00	150 00	180 00	Yes	Elevator operator, Ottawa. Construction foreman, Ottawa.	Aug. 1, 1924 April 1, 1924	71 62	18	960 00	960 00 1,599 00	160 00 260 00	288 00 639 60	Laflamme, V	
Sec. 1 (2).	No	Failing health	24	5 00 per day	Lafortune, Damase.... D. Lafranee, Jos	Yes Yes	Assistant foreman carpenter, Ottawa. Labourer, Ottawa	Ill health	
Physical disability.	July 1, 1924 Sept. 1, 1924	62 61	20 11 bro- ken per- iods	0 85 per hr. 0 45 per hr.	1,772 58	317 05 167 85	590 86	1,342 80 D'Languedoc, G. DeG...	No	Assistant engineer, Ottawa,.	Ill health	May 1, 1924	67	27	2,580 00	2,580 00	430 00	1,161 00	Deceased 28-9-24.Laplante, J. B	Yes	Cleaner and helper, Montreal Watchman, Ottawa	
Labourer, Ottawa	Nov. 1, 1924 Nov. 1, 1924 Oct. 1, 1924	69	17	900 00	891 66 960 00	150 00 160 00 167 85	252 64 368 00	Larose, Chas. C	
Leger, Hilaire	Yes Yes	Advanced age	
Advanced age	74 73	23 7	960 00 0 45 per hr.	587 47Lenghen, C. G	Yes	Painter, Ottawa	Ill health	July 1, 1924	63	14	0 65 per hr.	1,372 06	242 45	320 14	Liberge, Franpois	Yes	Labourer, Ottawa	Advanced age and ill health.	Nov. 1, 1924	65	24	0 45 per hour	949 01	167 85	379 60	Logan, David	Yes	Telegraph lineman, Clo-oose, B.C.	Advanced age	Nov. 1, 1924	61	26	132 00 per mo.	1,584 00	264 00	686 40	MacDonald, Robt. C..	Yes	District Superintendent of Telegraphs, Gr. 2, Edmonton. Caretaker, Regina, Sask	Advanced age and impaired health.	Nov. 1; 1924	65	25	3,000 00	2,926 66	500 00	1,219 44	Malcolmson, Jno	Yes	Ill health	July 1, 1924	65	18	800 00 plus all. 300 00	1,100 00	183 33	330 00	Malonev, Mrs. A	
Malouin, Alf	Yes Yes	Telegraph agent operator, Bersimis, Que. District Superintendent, Telegraph Service, Anticosti Island.	Not qualified for work required. Advanced age	Nov. 1, 1924 July 1, 1924	48 73	24 30	47 00 per mo. See f	562 50 oot-note	94 00	225 00	Mann, G. G	No	Lineman, Lloydminster, Sask.	Abolition of position	June 12, 1923	45	21	1,476 00	1,476 00	246 00	516 60	
Mathfe, N. M	
McCulloch, H. J	
McDonald, Norman J..
McKenna, S	
McKenzie, Angus	
McLachlan, Geo. A-
McLennan, C. J	
McMillan, J. F	
Migneault, Alfred....
Millerwood, Jas	
Mills, Wm. T	
Moffett, Paul E	
Monette, A	
Moore, Geo	
Moore, Robt	
Moriarty, B	
Morrison, Angus	
Moyneur, Franjois....
Nash, Jno. B	
Nicholson, Thos	
* O'Brien, C. F. C...
Orr, Samuel	
Yes	Sr. clerk stenographer, Ottawa.	Failing eyesight	Nov.	1,	1924Yes	Elevator operator, Toronto.	Advanced age and failing health.	Nov.	1,	1924No	Assistant Telegraph Operator, Bay of St. Lawrence, N.S.	Abolition of position	Nov.	1,	1924Yes	Messenger clerk, Ottawa....	Advanced age and failing health.	Nov.	1,	1924Yes	Caretaker, Charlottetown, P.E.I.	Advanced age and failing health.	June	1,	1924Yes	Agent operator, Dawson, Y.T.	Ill health	Sept.	1,	1924Yes	Caretaker, Whitehorse, Y.T.	Advanced age	Nov.	1,	1924Yes	General repairer, Port Hastings, N.S	In the interest of efficiency.	Mar.	1,	1924Yes	Stationary engineer, heating, Gr. 2, Ottawa.	Advanced age and failing health.	Sept.	1.	1924Yes	Labourer, Rideau Hall, Ottawa.	Physical disability.	Oct.	1,	1924No	Telegraph Lineman, Parks-ville, B.C.	Abolition of position	Nov.	1,	1924Yes Yes	Failing evesight	May	1,	1924Sheet metal worker, Ottawa	Advanced age	May	1,	1924Yes	Labourer, Ottawa	Physical disability.	Nov.	1.	1924No	Elevator operator, Toronto.	Ill health	July	1,	1924No	Cleaner and helper, Hamilton.	Advanced age and failing health.	July	1,	1924Yes	Telegraph Lineman, Tagish, Yukon Territory.	Advanced age,	July	1,	1924No	Labourer, Ottawa	Advanced age and ill health.	Sept.	1,	1924No Yes	Ill health	May	1,	1924Elevator Operator, Hamilton.	Advanced age and ill health.	Nov.	1,	1924No	Labourer, Victoria Island Shipyard, Ottawa.	Physical disability.	Nov.	1,	1924Yes	Labourer, Ottawa	Advanced age and physical disability.	May	1,	192461	32	2,100 00	2,100 00	350 00	1,050 0067	13	960 00	960 00	160 00	208 0046 73	3	564 00 1,000 00	94 00	16	1,000 00	166 66	266 6668	28	780 00 plus all.	1,080 00	180 00	504 00300 00	40	25	150 00	2,908 33	500 00	1.211 80per mo. plus all.	100 00	73	22	1,860 00 plus all.	2,046 66	360 00	750 44300 00	49 65	14 24	900 00 1,320 00	150 00	1,320 00	220 00	528 0065	9	0 45 per hr.	167 85	
50	21	132 00	1,584 00	264 00	554 40
		per mo.			
46	23	2,100 00	2,100 00	350 06	805 0066	24	0-80	1,567 73	298 40	627 09per hr.	52	7	0 45	167 85	per hr.	64	13	960 00	960 00	160 00	208 0064	13	900 00	900 00	150 00	195 0065	17	115 00	1,897 02	330 00	537 48per mo. plus all.	50 OC	66	19	0 45	1,015 61	167 85	321 61per hr.	66	34	1,200 00	1,200 00	200 00	600 0066	36	960 00	982 00	163 66	491 00plus all. for uni-	form	22 0C	62	18	0 50	1,153 33	186 5C	576 66per hr.	165 7566	1C	0 45	994 5S	167 85	per hr.	
225 00 671 40
251 77
g
[Stage Direction]


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p
pa
[Stage Direction]
oo

[Stage Direction]
Authorized by Order-in-Council, 1924
Department and Name
Public Works-Con. Osborne, J. L	
Osborne, N. P	
* Papillon, U	
See. 1 (2).
Paris, Zephirin	
Patterson, Chas. C.. Perkins, Samuel C..
D. Perreault, Arthur.. Picard, Nap	
Pilon, Toussaint....
Pipe, A. H	
Pope, E	
Pouliot, J. P	
Proulx, Jno	
Proulx, Nap	
Provost, F. X	
*Quinn, Martin See. 1
(2).
Quinn, Michael	
Regan, Denis	
Is
Position to be filled?
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
Caretaker, Nicolet, P.Q.
Foreman Labourer, Victoria Island Shipyard, Ottawa Principal Clerk, Ottawa...,
Position and Place
General Repairer of Telegraphs, Kegaska, Que. Carpenter, Ottawa	
Plumber and Fitter, Ottawa
Fireman, Montreal....
Caretaker, Valleyfield, Que.
Plumber and Fitter, Ottawa
Elevator Operator, Calgary.
District Superintendent of Telegraph Lines, Gr. 2 Quebec.
Superintendent, Grosse Isle Quarantine Telegraph Line Labourer, Ottawa	
Elevator operator, Ottawa.. Labourer, Ottawa	
Teamster, Rideau Hall, Ottawa.
Watchman, Victoria Island Shipyard, Ottawa. Stationary engineer, heating, gr. 1, London.
Reasons
for
Retirement
and inefficiency. Ldvaneed age an failing health. Advanced age	
Ill health....
Ill health....
Ill health....
Ill health....
Physical disability.
Advanced age and ill health, iterest of effic
Advanced age.
Ill health....
Advanced age and physical disability'
Advanced age	
Failing eyesight___
Advanced age and failing health Advanced age..
Advanced age and failing health.
Date of Retirement	Age at Re- tire- ment	No. of years ser- vice	Salary at time of Retire- ment	Average Salary last three years	Gratuity Sec. 3 (1)	Re- tiring Annuity Sec.3(2)$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.Nov.	i,	1924	47	23	672 00	672 00	112 00	257 60Nov.	i,	1924	68	13	0 75	1,581 03	279 75	342 55per hr.	June	i,	1924	81	16	780 00	780 00	160 00	256 00Nov.	i,	1924	63	32	0 60	1,349 16	223 80	674 58per hr.	July	i,	1924	55	28	2,280 00	2,280 00	380 00	1,064 00June	i,	1924	65	26	0 80	1,710 20	298 40	741 08per hr.	Mar.	i*	1924	68	7	1.0S0 00	180 00	July	i,	1924	68	12	780 00	1,080 00	180 00	216 00plus all.	300 00	April	l,	1924	69	34	0 80	1,691 93	298 40	845 96per hr.	May	16,	1924	51	8	960 00	160 00	Nov.	1,	1924	81	40	2,700 00	2,700 00	450 00	1,350 00Mar.	1,	1924	70	34	1,500 00	1,496 66	250 00	748 33July	1,	1924	70	10	0 45	966 93	167 85	161 15per hr.	July	I,	1924	73	28	960 00	960 00	160 00	448 00Sept.	16,	1924	64	12	0 45	167 85	per hr.	Oct.	1,	1924	65	23	20 00	992 78	173 33	380 56per week	Nov.	1,	1924	76	18	960 00	960 00	160 00	288 00Sept.	1,	1924	73	12	840 00	1,140 00	190 00	228 00plus all.	1	300 00	
Retiring Gratuity Sec. 3 (3)
$ cts.
1,260 00 D.
320 00
671 40
[Stage Direction]
So
to
[Stage Direction]
	Yes	Elevator operator, Ottawa.. Plumber and fitter, Ottawa. Carpenter, Ottawa			Sept. 1, 1924 July 1, 1924 May 1, 1924
Riendeau, Avila		Yes			
Rivers, C. A	Yes	Advanced age and physical disability	Robert, P. G	Yes	Watchman, Montreal	Nov. 1, 1924 July 1, 1924Rookes, Thos	Yes	Agent operator, Athabaska, Alta.	Advanced ago	Roy, Leon	Yes	Labourer, Ottawa	Advanced age and failing health.	Oct. 1, 1924Roy, Mrs. M. L	Yes	Fyle clerk, Ottawa	Failing health and eyesight.	July 1, 1924Rutherford, Thos	Yes	Fireman labourer, Winnipeg.	Nov. 1, 1921*Sales, Wm	No	Physical disability.. Advanced age and failing health.	Nov. 1, 1924 May 1, 1924Savard, Hilaire	No	Labourer, Rideau Hall, Ottawa.	Sharpe, Jno	No	Architectural modeller, Ot-tawa.	Advanced age	July 1, 1924'Shehyn, A. R	No	Junior architect, Ottawa	Abolition of position	Nov. 1, 1924Shepherd,F. H	No	Superintendent of dredges, Vancouver.	Advanced age	Nov. 1, 1924Simpson, Frank... .	Yes	Watchman, Toronto	Advanced age and ill health.	Nov. 1, 1924D. Simpson, Wm	Yes	Labourer, Ottawa	Advanced age and ill health.	Jan. 1, 1923Yes	July 1, 1924 June 1, 1924Taylor, Jas. G	Yes	Head clerk, Chief Architect's Br., Ottawa.	Advanced age and physical disability	Taylor, W. W	Yes	Caretaker, Kamloops, B.C..	Advanced age and ill health.	July 1, 1924Thomson, Robt	No	Mechanical engineer, Winni-	Abolition of position	June 16, 1924Todd, Robt	Yes	Agent operator, Seventh Cabin, B.C.	Advanced age and ill health.	Nov. 1, 1924Trodden, Jas	Yes	Construction foreman, New Westminster, B.C.	Advanced age and ill health.	Nov. 1, 1924Tyers, Chas	Yes	Patternmaker, Ottawa	Advanced age and ill health.	Nov. 1, 1924Valiquet, Ulric	No	Engineer, Gr. 2, Ottawa	Advanced age and failing health.	June 1, 1924Vermette, Theophille..	Yes	Messenger clerk, Quebec	Advanced age	Nov. 1, 1924Vignenult, P. E	Yes	District Superintendent of Telegraphs, Seven Islands, Que.	Advanced age and failing health.	Nov. 1, 1924Yes	Oct. 1, 1924 Nov. 1, 1924 June 1, 1924No	Messenger clerk, Ottawa	
Engineer, Gr. 1. Ottawa....	Voligny, L. R	Yes	Ill health	73	27	960 00	960 00	160 00	432 0057	3C	0 8C	1,684 01	298 40	842 00per hr.	68	18	0 75	1,545 50	279 75	463 65per hr.	84	18	960 00	960 00	160 00	288 0C67	8	1,620 00	270 00	74	19	0 45	993 62	167 85	314 64per hr.	51	23	1,300 00	1,300 00	216 66	498 3377	9	1,080 00	180 00	71	12	1,260 00	1,260 00	210 00	400 0074	13	0 45	1,046 95	167 85	226 84per hr.	74	17	2,400 00	2,400 00	400 00	680 0055	28	2,040 00	2,040 00	340 00	952 0068	7	3,240 00	540 00	65	21	960 00	960 00	160 00	416 0071	8	0 45	167 85	per hr.	69	18	0 75	1,579 50	279 75	473 85per hr.	72	16	2,880 00	2,773 33	480 00	739 5671	14	900 00	1,200100	200 00	280 00plus all.	300 00	48	8	2,820 00	470 00	64	17	160 00	1,840 00	320100	521 33per mo.	70	15	5 00	1,551 66	260 83	387 91per day	75	See foot-	note.	67	32	4,500 00	4,430 00	750 00	2,215 0072	26	900 00	900 00	150 00	390 0066	37	1,500 00	1,500 00	250 00	750 0069	9	0 45	167 85	per hr.	70	32	900 00	900 00	150 00	450 0061	29	3,600 00	3,600 00	600 00	1,740 00
1,080 00
720 00
1 890 00 1,342 80 D.
470 00
671 40
C. S. Retirements

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Authorized by Order-in-Council, 1924
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Department and Name
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Is Position to be filled?
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Position and Place
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Reasons for Retirement
[Stage Direction]
Date of Retirement
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Age at Re- tire- ment
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No. of years ser- vice
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Salary at time of Retire- ment
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Average Salary last three years
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Gratuity Sec. 3 (1)
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Retiring Annuity Sec. 3 (2)
[Stage Direction]
Retiring Gratuity Sec. 3 (3)
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Public Works-Con. Waterworth, Elijah
[Stage Direction]
Yes
[Stage Direction]
Caretaker, Glencoe, Ont
[Stage Direction]
Advanced age and
[Stage Direction]
July
[Stage Direction]
1,
[Stage Direction]
1924
[Stage Direction]
71
[Stage Direction]
14
[Stage Direction]
$ cts. 780 00
[Stage Direction]
$ cts. 1,080 00
[Stage Direction]
$ cts. 180 00
[Stage Direction]
$ cts. 252 00
[Stage Direction]
$ cts.
[Stage Direction]
Watson, Wm
[Stage Direction]
Yes
[Stage Direction]
Elevator operator, Toronto..
[Stage Direction]
ill health. Advanced age and
[Stage Direction]
July
[Stage Direction]
1,
[Stage Direction]
1924
[Stage Direction]
67
[Stage Direction]
11
[Stage Direction]
plus all. 300 00 960 00
[Stage Direction]
900 00
[Stage Direction]
160 00
[Stage Direction]
176 00
[Stage Direction]
Whalen, Thos. R
[Stage Direction]
Yes
[Stage Direction]
Stationary Engineer, Gr. 2,
[Stage Direction]
failing health. Failing health and
[Stage Direction]
Aug.
[Stage Direction]
1,
[Stage Direction]
1924
[Stage Direction]
62
[Stage Direction]
31
[Stage Direction]
1,320 00
[Stage Direction]
1,320 00
[Stage Direction]
220 00
[Stage Direction]
660 00
[Stage Direction]
Yes
[Stage Direction]
Ottawa. Caretaker, Fredericton, N.B.
[Stage Direction]
physical disability
[Stage Direction]
July
[Stage Direction]
1,
[Stage Direction]
1924
[Stage Direction]
80
[Stage Direction]
24
[Stage Direction]
780 00
[Stage Direction]
1,080 00
[Stage Direction]
180 00
[Stage Direction]
432 00
[Stage Direction]
plus all. 300 00
[Stage Direction]
Health of Animals
Monday, March 9, 1925