[Stage Direction]
Bill (No. 89,) to incorporate the Bank of Saskatchewan.-Mr. Knowles.

Bill (No. 90,) respecting the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway Company.-Mr. Clements.
Bill (No. 91,) respecting the Kootenay Central Railway Company.-Mr. Clements.
Bill (No. 92,) respecting the Manitoba and North Western Railway Company of Canada.-Mr. Cash.
Bill (No. 93,) respecting the United Gold Fields of British Columbia (Limited).- Mr. Buchanan.
Bill (No. 94,) respecting the Windsor, Chatham and London Railway Company. -Mr. Wilcox.

Right Hon. R. L. BORDEN (Prime Minister) moved:: That the name of the Hon. H. S. Beland be substituted for the name of Mr. Fortier as member of the Committee on Railways, Canals and Telegraph Lines, and that the name of Mr. Fortier be substituted for the name of Hon. H. S. Beland as member of the Committee on Agriculture.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Robert Laird Borden: That the special committee to inquire into an old age pension system for Canada, as set forth in the resolution of this House passed on the 24th day of January instant, do consist of Messrs. Bradbury, Buchanan, Burnham, Carroll, Currie, Goodeve, Guthrie, Jameson, Macdonald (Pictou), Mondou, Verville and White (Leeds).


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Robert Laird Borden: That it be resolved, that a message he sent to the Senate to inform their honours that this House will unite with them in the formation of a Joint Committee of both Houses on the subject, of more equally dividing between the two Houses of Parliament the initiation of private and public legislation, with a view to curtailing the length of the sessions; and more particularly to prevent in future the custom known in parliamentary parlance as the ' railroading ' of important measures at the end of the session, and to devise means by which such a result could be obtained; and that Messrs Allans, Barnard, Bennett (Sim-coe), Clark (Bruce), Clarice (Essex), Emmer-son, Kyte, Sevigny, and Wilson (Laval), will act as members on the part of this House on the said Joint Committee.
He said: The resolution which was sent to this House by the Senate is to be found in the Votes and Proceedings of the 26th instant. No doubt it has already come to the attention of my right hon. friend.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. CLARKE (Essex).: I ask leave of tile House to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the vacancy in the electoral district of South Renfrew, and to submit this proposition :
Pursuant to Rule 39 Mr. Clarke (Essex) proposes upon a motion' to adjourn the House, and with its leave, to discuss a distinct matter of urgent public importance, namely: The question of the vacancy in the representation in this House of the electoral district of South Renfrew and of the delay in the issue of a writ for an election to fill the vacancy.
Leave granted.


Alfred Henry Clarke: Mr. Speaker, for the purpose of discussing this matter I move that this House do now adjourn.' The matter to be discussed is one, I submit, of urgent importance to the interests of this country, namely, the vacancy which has existed in the representation in this House for the electoral district of South Renfrew for nearly two months, and the delay, for which some person must be responsible, in the issuing of the writ in order that the electors of the riding may have their undoubted right to a representative in parliament. It seems to me that the long delay of this matter is a direct violation of the spirit, and I am inclined to think, of the letter of the law in this respect. When we refer to the House of Commons Act, section 5, the procedure is very plain, so plain, one would think, that the writ would issue in a case of this sort almost automatically. That section provides that:
In case of a resignation the Speaker shall forthwith

I emphasize the word ' forthwith.'
-address his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery for the issue of a writ for the election of a new member, and the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery shall issue the writ accordingly.
With commendable promptitude, upon receiving the resignation, you, Mr. Speaker, did issue your warrant to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery on the 7th December last, and so notified the House that you had issued your warrant to the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery for the issue of a writ. I am sure that if the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery had been supplied with the information required from another source he also would have been commended for his promptness in this .respect, but instead of that we have gone nearly two months and the writ has not yet been issued. The reason is one arising in consequence of the Act which provides the

duty to be done by the government before the writ can be issued and that duty is to fix the nomination day and name the returning officer in order that the writ may be issued. That has not been done.
Hon. gentlemen opposite realized that for a breach of the law it would be necessary to give some reason. Two reasons, if they may be called reasons, have been given for this great delay. The first Tea-son was given by the bon. Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid). He went up into the riding of South Renfrew. He could not very well afford to say: We are doing this for the purpose of keeping this riding open; he found and realized the necessity under the law of giving some reason why the electors had been deprived of their rights and why the government had not done their duty in enabling them to send a representative to this House. I only need to refer to the reason, or the pretext, which he gave and I will take it from the organ of the hon. member himself, the Renfrew ' Journal.' This is the reason which that paper reports him as giving:
Dr. Reid said the Liberals had been unfair and ungenerous in regard to the acclamation of Mr. Borden in Carleton county some years ago. They had held back the issuing of the writ until after the House met so as to keep the Conservative leader out as long as possible.
A statement more conspicuous for its reckless disregard of truth, I think, it would be difficult to find. But, as I said before, the hon. gentleman realized that he must give some reason and he had to resort to this which he calls a reason for the extraordinary delay. What are the facts in regard to that? He cites as a precedent the matter >of Ciarleton in the year 1905. In that case Mr. Kidd, who had represented that riding since the general election, tendered his resignation in this House and it was accepted on the 20th day of January, 1905. The by-election was held on the 4th February following, and the hon. member (Mr. Borden) was introduced into the House on the 7th day of February. So that, within eighteen days of the time the resignation was placed in the hands of the Speaker the hon. gentleman took his seat in this House. If that precedent had been followed in this case, after this House had resumed at the close of the Christmas vacation, south Renfrew would have had its representative sitting here in parliament. I have always thought that when a new government was elected it would be an improvement upon its predecessor, that instead of copying the vices and errors of its predecessor it would avoid those and imitate its virtues. That has not been the case with the present government. We have had it in other instances, in the Mr. CLARKE (Essex).
matter of patronage and in the matter of advertising for tenders. When they are pressed for reasons they give as their precedent what they call the vices of the former government instead' of what they *call its virtues. It seems to me to be a true saying that the evil which men da lives after them, and that me good is often interred with their bones; so that it would appear that if there were any evils connected with the former government those evils are living after them and are being imitated by their successors. It is all the worse in this particular case because, on account of the fewness of the vices of the former government, the hon. Minister of Customs has had to resort to fiction in order to procure some vices. Not only does he base it upon facts but he invents a condition of affairs and then follows that invention which is not founded upon the facts when he says that ho is imitating a state of facts that never did exist. I have been wondering who the prototypes of the members of the present government were. Most statesmen have some prototype, some great exemplar, that they are proud to follow. I know that my right hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) has chosen the late Mr. Gladstone. He has often referred to him. I have searched through the history of many statesmen and there is only one that I have discovered that I think I might call the prototype of the present government. He was a Secretary of State many years ago. His name is Nicholas Machiavel. He had doctrines. I cannot say that I have found many men who have adopted the doctrines of that Secretary of State. . But it is quite evident we have some followers of that gentleman in the present government. What were some of these doctrines which are being followed? One was that when a new prince was created he should immediately, by fair means or foul, put out of existence any person who might stand in his way. That is being followed. A man who ought to be in this House, a man of experience in this House, but who might be in the way of some hon. gentlemen is proposed by a majority of the people of that constituency but hon. gentlemen opposite immediately adopt the doctrine of Machiavel and try to put him out of the way.


Mr. BENNETT (Simcoe).: He is not in yet.


Alfred Henry Clarke: And my hon. friends seems to relish the fact that he is not in.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Oh, no.


Alfred Henry Clarke: His prototype had some other characteristics. One was that a prince or a ruler should not be

altogether good-some parts good, but, if necessary to save his life, then he should have some parts bad. I find in the composition of this Cabinet there are some parts that are bad and they find it is necessary to hold their names and their positions in order to do some things that are decidedly wicked, as instanced in their conduct in this very matter.
Another characteristic was that they must appear to be good, the hon. Minister of Customs goes up to Renfrew, but he does not give them the wickedness that is in his heart and say: we are going to try and kill Graham, but he says: there is a reason, they did not treat the present leader of the government correctly in a former instance and that is a good plausible reason, I will conceal the wickedness in my heart and say we mean to be just as good as they were.
Then there is another reason, perhaos the most far-reaching of all, that a prince, in order to rule well, ought to go to a preceptor who is part man and part beast. I do not know but what we have an illustration of that here, because when the hon. member went to Renfrew he spoke with the tongue of a man, but when, in this House, he is confronted by what he said there and the falsity of the statement, he takes the part of the beast and sits dumb in his seat.
The only fault I find with the hon. leader of the government (Mr. Borden) is that he should have allotted this wing of the government to the province of Ontario. I think the premier province of this Dominion deserved better at the hands of the Prime Minister than for him to have chosen the followers of this eminent statesman from that province. I do not think they represent the ideals of that province, and I think that an apology is owing by the Prime Minister in that respect. Who are the men who are the disciples of Mac-hiavel? You can scarcely think that the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Foster), is responsible for this state of things. He has been a gymnast in his day, but I have heard him here as the apostle of the strictest virtues when he sat on this side of the House and, with the mellowing influences of age, I cannot think that he would be responsible for the subverting of the law for the sake of depriving a constituency of its right.
One cannot think that the Minister of Militia (Mr. Hughes) who comes from that province would be guilty, because who is there _ more valiant in fighting for'fair-play and justice than he is? If he is true to himself he will call out the militia, and see that right is done and that the muzzle is taken off the people of South Renfrew.
I know that my hon. friend from western Ontario, the Minister of Labour, (Mr. Crothers), cannot be guilty. These are not the ideals or the principles of western Ontario. He would not be a true representative of that district if he did not disavow the attempt that has been made here to gag the electors of a prominent constituency in this province. Then the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. White)-much is expected of him. He represents the people who stand for the rights of all parties, for justice and right in this country. He comes from a party in which he was trained up in those principles and I think that the hon. member has it in his heart and if he is allowed will say that those schemes shall not prevail in the province of Ontario, and that common decency and right will be observed.
Then if these are not the disciples where are they? There are only two left from the province of Ontario, one is the Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid), and he appears perhaps to be the leader in this respect. Then we have left only the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Cochrane). The Minister of Railways and Canals so far has exhibited more of the dumb portion of the ruler, because he does not say much in this House, but, none the less, he is credited with representing a very strong element of action. The lion is a very strong animal although he does not speak. The hon. Minister of Railways and Canals came down here with a very strong reputation given to him by his former leader, Sir James Whitney, in the province of Ontario, and from my personal acquaintance with him I did not expect that he would be a disciple of this great statesman of whom I have spoken. But circumstances are suspicious. These are the two, I am afraid, who are to be credited with being the authors of this mischief which has been perpetrated. The Minister of Railways and Canals has, within the past week, appointed a commission to investigate the deportment of the Liberal candidate in South Renfrew, Hon. George Graham, a man who ought to be on the floor of this House when his administration is being discussed, and a man than whom no one is better fitted to watch in this House the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Cochrane), in his dealings. If the hon. the Minister of Railways was as courageous a man as he is reputed by his former leader to be, he would say: Give me the very strongest critic you have, give me the man who knows most about my department, let him come in here, and let him watch my every movement. But that is not the case here; instead of inviting criticism from the man most able to critise instead of assisting, or at any rate giving fair-plav so that that man may come into this House, we find this effort to prevent him gaining a seat in order that

the House may not have the advantage of his assistance and experience.
Another thing points to the Minister of Railways in connection with the Minister of Customs, and it is not at all satisfactory. I again refer to the hon. member's organ, the Renfrew 'Journal.' That paper says:
A Low appeal from a Cabinet Minister.
Dr. Reid then turned his attention to the good roads movement advocated hr the Conservative government at Ottawa, and the bald way that he handled this .topic disgusted all decent men-who look for something higher than this kind of talk from a cabinet minister. The burden of this part of Dr. Reid's speech was to the effect that South Renfrew should vote for Dr. Maloney and the Borden government would then spend money in this district for good roads. '
It is a little significant that when the Minister of Railways announced the Roads Bill in this House he stated that it was the intention to turn the money over to the provinces, but after this election contest became warm, we find he adds a little clause to the Bill providing that in addition to turning the money over to the provinces the government may spend it themselves. That is the provision of the Bill. Then we find his associate going into the riding of South Renfrew and saying: Vote right and then we will spend this money right in order to help those who vote for us. That is practically the result.
Then leaving that reason, if it may be called a reason, I have another, given by the hon. the leader of the government (Mr. Borden), only two days ago, and I think that a great deal of the virtue which might have existed if this reason had been given six weeks ago, is lost when we remember that although day after day the leader of the opposition (Sir Wilfrid Laurier), has inquired why the writ was not issued in South Renfrew, no suggestion of any obstacle was ever given until two days ago when the leader of the government said there was some trouble about voters' lists. There is no trouble about voters' lists in the organized districts of the province of Ontario, there is always an official list. Section G of the Dominion Elections Act provides:
For the purposes of any Dominion election held within the limits of a province, the voters' lists shall, except as herein otherwise provided, be those prepared for the several polling divisions established, and which, on the sixtieth dav next preceding the day fixed for the nomination of candidates for such Dominion election, were in force, or were last in force, under the laws of that province, for the purposes of provincial elections.
Does the hon. member not know that lists are made up every year in Ontario, except in the cities where registration takes place? Previous to an election there is al-


Alfred Henry Clarke: 
Robert Laird Borden: Mr. Speaker, we have listened to a most notable example of what the girl in the play called 'excellent fooling,' .because the hon. gentleman who is inspired by these virtuous and worthy sentiments is one who sat in this House day after day, week after week, and month after month, when periods exceeding by four times the one in this case had elapsed, and he was a,s dumb as the animal to which he has just referred. I am bound to say, with regard to his somewhat confused statement about men and animals, that a certain dumb animal, which spoke on one notable occasion when it stood still in the road, uttered words much more to the point than those which my hon. friend has uttered this afternoon. He seems to be under a misapprehension as to how long the. comity has been 'unrepresented. For what length of time does my hon. friend compute the period?


Alfred Henry Clarke: From December 7.


Robert Laird Borden: I want to tell him that the representative of the riding of South Renfrew drew his sessional indemnity up to the 31st day of December, and I presume that during that period the county may have been fairly regarded as being represented.


Alfred Henry Clarke: Does the hon. gentleman deny that the Speaker issued his warrant on the 7th of December?


Robert Laird Borden: Does the hon. gentleman deny that the member for South Renfrew drew his sessional indemnity up to the 31st day of December? Now, my non. friend has used some strong expressions in the course of his remarks. He has told us that the riding of South Renfrew has been gagged, and he has posed as the champion of common decency and right. Does he know that his own leader sat for a whole session in parliament, when the government he supported denied this city the right to be represented here? Does he know that he sat in parliament during .aill * that time and never lifted up his voice 'against what he now describes ias ian outrage ?	My hon.
friend will perhaps remember that. He has expressed the aspiration that this government shall be an improvement upon its predecessor. I am sure that we would deserve to be turned out of office instantly if we do not come up to that standard; and I venture to think we will improve on it to such an extent that the people of this country will realize the distinction without any mental effort whatever.
It will be interesting, as my hon. friend has provoked this discussion, to go into the record of the late government with regard to this matter. It would take up too much time to go into all the instances in which the time during which constituencies were not represented in this House was greater than it is at present, but I may give a few of the constituencies in which the time that elapsed between the issue of the Speaker's warrant and the election was twice as long as in this case. I will begin with just a few illustrations and ask my hon. friend, as I go on, what he thinks of the efforts at gagging allowed by his leader to take place on those occasions. My hon. friend has spoken of my hon. colleague the Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid) sitting dumb in his seat. May I ask my hon. friend a very pertinent question? Why did he sit dumb in his seat when those outrages, to which I am going to allude, occurred?


Alfred Henry Clarke: I do not know what the cases are.


Robert Laird Borden: Let me tell my hon. friend. There was the case of Beauce in which the Speaker's warrant was issued



on the 30th of August, 1911, and the writ on the 10th December, 1911, leaving the representation vacant during a period of 111 days. Then there was St. James division, Montreal, where the warrant was issued on the 30th August, 1901, and the writ on the 19th December, 1901, leaving the representation of that constituency vacant during 111 days. There was also the riding of Addington, for which the warrant issued the 30th August and the writ on the 19th December, 1901-a period of 111 days. In the constituency of L'Islet the warrant was issued on the 30th August, 1901, and the writ on the 19th December, 1901-a period of 111 days. For the election in the county of Mont-magny the warrant was issued on the 27th May, 1908, and no writ was issued before dissolution. Take the case of Saskatchewan, where Mr. Lament resigned on the 5th September, 1905, the warrant was issued the 20th December, 1905. and the writ on the 16th January, 1905-a period of 118 days. Then there was the constituency of Assiniboia West. Mr. Scott resigned on the 29th August, 1905, the Speaker's warrant was issued on the 7th September,
1905,	and the writ on the 16th January,
1906,	a period of 119 days. I did not hear the eloquent voice of my hon. friend raised in any of these cases to denounce the government for the outrage of delaying the issue of the writs such a protracted period.


Alfred Henry Clarke: In most of the cases with which my hon. friend has just dealt, I was not a member of this House, and consequently could not have spoken, and in the others I understand the House was not in session.


Robert Laird Borden: Perhaps then my hon. friend will tell us now wn-at he thinks of these delays, I would like to state here that from the 7th of December last until the 10th of January this House was not in session as the session was adjourned during that interval. That is a point my.hon. friend seems unfortunately to have overlooked. Therefore, if his logic is to' be accepted, there has only been a vacancy since the 10th of January last. I do not know whether I make the point clear to my hon. friend. Take another case, that of Vancouver, in which Mr. Mclnnes resigned on the 12th of May, 1900. The Speaker's warrant was issued on the 21st of May, 1900, and no writ was issued before dissolution. Thus in this case a period of 141 days elapsed during which that constituency was not represented. In the case of North Grey, Mr. Horsey, its former representative died in July, 1902, the Speaker's warrant was issued the 6th September, 1902, and the writ on the 31st January, 1902-a period of 147 days. There is fur-Mr. BORDEN.	-
ther the case of the city ol London. Mr. Hyman, its former representative, resigned on the 11th of April, 1907, the Speaker's warrant was issued on the 20th of April, 1907, and the writ on the 29th of October, 1907-a period of 157 days. My hon. friend (Mr. Clarke, Essex) was in the House on that occasion and the House was in session. Perhaps he will be kind enough to tell us what he thinks of that long delay. In York, New Brunswick, the election was voided on the 11th of June, 1901, the warrant was issued on the 21st of June, 1901, and the writ on the 5th of December, 1901 -a period of 167 days. In North Simcoe, its former representative (Mr. McCarthy) died on the 11th of May, 1898, the Speaker's warrant was issued on the 4th of June, 1898, and the writ on the 19th of November, 1898, a period of 168 days. In the case of Lisgar, in which the election of Mr. Richardson was declared void, the writ was issued on the 20th of July, 1901, the Speaker's warrant on the 7th of August,
1901,	and the writ on the 27th of January,
1902,	a period of 173 days. In Durham West, in which the election of Mr. Thornton was annulled, the Speaker's warrant was issued on the 21st of June, 1901, and the writ on the 19th of December, 1901, a period of 181 days. Take the case of Bagot county, its former representative, Mr. Dupont, died the 12th of March, 1898, the Speaker's warrant was issued on 'the 20th of April, 1898, and his writ on the 22nd of November 1898, a period of 216 days. In West Huron, its representative, Mr. Cameron, was appointed Lieutenant Governor on the 30th of May, 1898, the Speaker's warrant was issued on the 4th of June, 1898, and his writ on the 31st of January, 1899, a period of 241 days. In West Hastings, Mr. Corby resigned the 1st of April, 1901, the Speaker's warrant was issued on the 3rd of April, 1901, and the writ on the 19th of December, 1901, a period of 260 days. In the case of Winnipeg, Mr. Jamieson died the 21st of February, 1899, the Speaker's warrant was issued on the 29th of March, 1899, and his writ on the 2nd of January, 1900, a period of 279 days. In the -case of St. James Division of Montreal, the election of Mr. Brunet was annulled on the 11th of March, 1903, the Speaker's warrant was issued the 3rd of April, 1903, and his writ the 27th of January, 1904, a period of 299 days.
I think there is only one conclusion at which this House can arrive and that is that my hon. friend must have sat in this House during the period in which these delays in the representation of these constituencies took place without knowing anything -about them, because otherwise his voice would have been raised, as the champion of decency and right to prevent

these constituencies being gagged as he now declares they were.
Let us take one other little illustration for the benefit of my hon. friend. He -might be good enough perhaps to convey it to the gentleman who is the Liberal candidate in South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) because that gentleman was responsible for the very delay to which I am going to refer as he was a member of the Ontario government at that very time. I will give him some -dates, if his nervous system will stand it, although, I am sure, it will produce a most profound shock.
The Ontario general election took place on the 29th May, 1902. Mr. Thomas W. Munroe was elected for North Renfrew-the adjoining riding to the one under discussion-by a majority of 459. He died two days afterwards, on the 31st of May, 1902. The Speaker informed the legislature on the 23rd of March, 1903, that a warrant for the writ had issued. But the Prime Minister of the government of Ontario-Mr. Graham being a member of that government-would not permit the writ to issue, and rejected Mr. Matheson's motion for a writ on the 31st March, 1903. There was a letter from Mr.-now Sir James-Whitney, to the Premier on the 6th November, 1903, and the election took place on the 26th December, 1903, exactly 18 months and 26 days after the vacancy occurred.


Alfred Henry Clarke: If the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Borden) will allow me, I think he is mistaken in saying that hon. Mr. Graham was a member of the Ontario government at that time. I think the right hon. gentleman ought to point out, too, that all this occurred during the moribund days of a thirty-year old government, and also that the electors severely censured them.


Robert Laird Borden: Some of these instances to which I am referring occurred when the late Dominion administration was moribund;-I am bound to admit that they have that excuse, whatever it may be worth. I was under the impression that Mr. Graham was a member of the government; but I withdraw that. But, I take it, he was a member of the House, and of course his voice was heard in indignant protest at the delay caused by the government. I suppose the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke, Essex) can give me that assurance. Cannot he? (after a pause) I am awaiting assurance from my hon. friend that Mr. Graham's voice was heard in indignant protest against this.


Alfred Henry Clarke: I did not understand that the hon. gentleman was waiting. He gives me credit for omnipotence and omniscience.


Robert Laird Borden: I do not give the hon. gentleman credit for either omnipotence or 714
omniscience-certainly not for omniscience in view of some of the statements he has made this afternoon. Let us look for a moment at the actual facts of the case. My hon. friend seems inclined to challenge the statements I made with regard to the matter. I will give him the information that has been furnished me from official sources. The following is a statement showing when the lists for the several townships, etc., came into force:-
Brougham township	 Sept. 30,	1911.
MoNab township	Sept. 30,1911.
Bagot and Blythfield township ..Oct. 31, 1911.
Adamston township	Nov. 7, 1911.
Griffith and Matawatchan townships	Nov.	10,	1911.Horton township	
Nov. 10,	1911.Radcliffe township	Nov. 30,	1911.Raglan township	
Nov. 29, 1911.Brndenell & Lyndock townships. Dec. 14,	1911.Sebastopol township	Dec.	14,	1911.Grattan township	Deo.	21,	1911.Haggarty & Richards townships. Dec. 2-S,	1911.Sherwood township	Jan.	15,	1912.Renfrew town	Sept. 22,	1911.Arnprior town	Oct. 16,	1911.ICillaloe station, village.... Oct. 11,	1911.Eganville town	Nov. 22,	1911.
The lists for Sherwood township were irregular, and, if I understand it, will have to be sent back to the judge; and it is a little difficult at present to say at what date they can be regarded as being in force. From the list I have given the hon. gentleman the House will see that, with the exception of two or three of the townships of South Renfrew, new lists were ready to be used if a little delay could be had. It was expected that all the lists could be used but, on account of the unfortunate error made in one township to which I have alluded, it may not be possible to carry out' that purpose in its entirety. A further consideration is that many of the men in the riding are absent and are working in parts of the country that are very inaccessible at the present time; and it might be more desirable and convenient, so far as they are concerned, that the election should take place a little later in the winter. However that may be, I hope we shall be able, during the present week, to give consideration to the date at which this election should be held. I had not all the information on the former occasion of the discussion of this matter, but I think that I have all the information now [DOT]except in regard to the one township indicated. If it had been possible to hold a meeting of the council to-day, there might have been an opportunity to consider the matter then. I hope it may be considered before the end of the present week.


Sir WILFRID LAURIER (Quebec East).: Mr. Speaker, it is recognized as an indication of a poor defence in any case when resort has to be had to abuse of the plaintiff's

attorney. That is exactly what my right hon. friend (Mr. Borden) has been doing. Nor is it any better to appeal to the tu quo-que argument, but that is the only defence that he has been able to bring forward on the present occasion except in one thing to which I will refer in a moment. He has stated that the late government were very much to blame in not holding the election as soon as the warrant of the Speaker was issued. But in any of the cases which he has mentioned, with the exception of perhaps one or two, I do not remember that any complaint was made by any member of the then opposition that the writ, was not issued. My hon. friend knows sometimes vacancies have taken place at times when neither one side nor the other is anxious to have an election. He has cited the case of the vacancy that took place last session. The election did not take place; and for good reasons. The hon. gentleman did not complain at that time, because we were all under the impression that there *would be a general election, and so a by-election was unnecessary. He referred to my own case. I sat here for one whole session as the representative of two constituencies. That is quite true. In 1908 I was elected both for Quebec East and for the city of Ottawa. 1 sat during the session after the election without making my election of one constituency to represent. But I am not aware that my action was challenged toy my friends or by anybody else.


Some hon. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.


Wilfrid Laurier: It was challenged the following session. And immediately that was done, I made my choice of one constituency and an election was held in the other. More than that, we were under the impression that the rules of the House of Commons required a member in such circumstances to make his election. But the Speaker ruled that no such rule was in force. And when we undertook to revise the rules of the House, I being then Prime Minister and Chairman of the Committee on Rules, we put in a rule whereby a member elected for two constituencies should be bound to select one of them within a given time after the election. That is the situation so far as my personal record goes. But what is the record of my hon. friend who now occupies the position that I occupied as Prime Minister in carrying out reforms which he advocated wdien sitting on this side of the House? He introduced a Bill while he was leader of the opposition to provide that there should be an automatic issue of the writ the moment the warrant of the Speaker had been issued. He has the opportunity now to bring into effect what he preached in opposition. The lists nave been amended. The issue of the writ is not automatic, but it was up to the right hon. gentleman on the 8th of Decem-Sir WILFRID LAURIER.
ber to issue the writ in order to carry out the rule he .preached wdien on this side. Seven weeks have elapsed and not a thing has been done nor has the writ been issued.
So the tu quoque argument can be turned against my hon. friend.


Robert Laird Borden: Would my hon. friend support such a Bill?


Wilfrid Laurier: I say that if I did wrong, I have been castigated for it. But my hon. friend said a moment ago that he would not deserve to be here if he did not do better than we did. Not only has he_ not done better than we did, but he is doing far worse. I will say, however, to his credit, I say frankly to my hon. friend, I believe that if he were to follow his own inclinations, his own better judgment, the writ for South Renfrew would have been issued long ago. I believe that he has received his inspiration from behind, that inspiration he has followed, and followed it not at all to his credit. I believe, nay I know, that if he were to follow the advice, the wish and the pressure of his friends in the riding of South Renfrew, the writ would have been issued before today. But there is some sinister influence at work upon my hon. friend, and up to this day he has not had the courage to resist that evil influence. He has listened to the voice of the serpent, he has not listened to the voice of the true men of South Renfrew. This is not the first time that such an occurrence as we have to-day has taken place. My hon. friend has referred to vacancies which have taken place, in regard to which the government have been dilatory in issuing writs for an election. But there is all the difference in the world between the causes which have been cited by my hon. friend, and the case in hand. The case in hand is quite different. Mr. Low was elected on the 21st of September to be the member for South Renfrew. Mr. Graham, a member of the old government, was defeated. Mr. Low resigned for the well known and avowed object of giving a chance to Mr. Graham to be elected, under those circumstances. This has happened before. Important members of the cabinet have been defeated, members that belonged to a government have lost their seats. But it never happened until this day that, under similar circumstances, the government of the day refused to pave the way for an opponent to come into the House. It has been stated in the press which supports the right hon. gentleman that the government owes us no favour. We ask for no favour in this matter. If the government want to oppose the election of Mr. Graham, they can do so. All we ask is fair play, play the game fair. Let us give a chance to the electors of South Renfrew to elect a representative. If it be the will of the government to oppose Mr. JANUARY 31, 1912
Graham, they can do so. Now I submit to my hon. friend, is that fair? Is it right? Is it playing the game to refuse to issue a writ to fill a vacancy there, in order to prevent Mr. Graham from becoming a member of this House?
I have been in this House a longer time than my right hon. friend, I have sat opposite to Sir John A. Macdonald, and I say to my right hon. friend that when he acts in this way he does not follow the example that wa&.set by Sir John A. Macdonald. In the election of 1882 Sir Richard Cartwright was defeated. Mr. John McMillan was elected for the riding of South Huron. In the month of November, 1883, Mr. John McMillan resigned his seat for the purpose of giving Sir Richard Cartwright an opportunity of entering this House. He resigned on the 23rd of November. On the 30th of November, the House not being in session, the Speaker issued his warrant. The government of that day, presided over by Sir John A. Macdonald, issued a warrant for an election in South Huron, so as to give Sir Richard Cartwright an opportunity to become a member of this House. The writ was issued on the 10th of December, ten days after Mr. Speaker had issued his warrant. The election took place on the 27th of December, and Sir Richard Cartwright was elected by acclamation. There was no opposition offered to him by the government of Sir John A. Miacdoniailid. Sir, times have changed. Sir John A. Macdonald is no longer at the head of the Liberal-Conservative party. I am afraid that his traditions are gone also. If the traditions of fair play which actuated Sir John A Macdonald were still in the minds and hearts of the men who guide his party, this delay would not have taken place, there would have been an election, and Mr. Graham would now be in this House.


Robert Laird Borden: What about Mr. Foster in 1903?


Wilfrid Laurier: I am not aware of that.


Robert Laird Borden: I am; because I went into the riding and campaigned for him when he ran in North Ontario, and when the whole force of the Liberal party was sent in there against him. And he was not elected.


Wilfrid Laurier: I am not aware that anybody resigned his seat in his favour. There was a vacancy, and, therefore, it was an open fight. We are here to fight one another. Let me say again to my hon. friend that he may oppose the election of Mr. Graham if he wants to do so; but what I complain of is that he will not allow us to have an election. He can fight !Mr. Graham if he chooses; that is liis own business, I have nothing to say as to that. It might
be more graceful to allow him to be elected by acclamation; but we do not ask for any courtesy or any favour. We simply ask the government to play the game fair, and that is what we are entitled to. But my hon. friend says there are some old lists which were not in force. It has been shown by my hon. friend from Essex that in the province of Ontario there aTe lists available all the time.


Robert Laird Borden: Then why did the right hon. gentleman desire to introduce legislation in 1908 to make new lists, because there were others not more than a year old prepared for the province of Ontario?


Wilfrid Laurier: That was not for the old province of Ontario, it was for the unorganized districts. There are no lists m the unorganized districts, but in the organized districts there are lists all the time available. If they are more than sixty days old they are not in force.


Robert Laird Borden: But there were lists in the unorganized districts.


Wilfrid Laurier: No.


Robert Laird Borden: 1 beg the hon. gentleman's pardon, there were lists," they were about a year old, but my right hon. friend thought they would not do.


Wilfrid Laurier: That is the very ground which is taken by the hon. gentleman to-day, that the lists are old. All the lists at present available in the riding of South Renfrew were revised in the month of October, and the month of September. On the 4th of December, when the local elections took place, the only new lists were those revised in September in the townships of Brougham, McNab and in Renfrew. These were in force, all the others were not in force, and the election took place, therefore, upon the old lists. If the arguments of my hon. friend were to be taken seriously, there would be no election at all in the province of Ontario, because at the present time the lists are all old, and there are no new lists for this year. I am sorry to see that my hon. friend has taken that position. But if he will play the game fair, he will give us an opportunity of meeting him in South Renfrew. Once more I repeat that if the government followed the advice of their own friends there would be no opposition to Mr. Graham's election in South Renfrew. But if there is an election, and it is for the government to say whether there shall be one or not, we are ready for it. It is the duty of the government to issue the writ immediately. When I called the attention of my right hon. friend the other day to this matter he said it was under delibera-

tion. What have they to deliberate upon? It is a simple ministerial duty to issue the writ, and if my right hon. friend had been true to himself he would have issued the writ long ere this.


Hon. J. D. REID (Minister of Customs).: I wish to say a few words on this matter, since my name has been mentioned by the hon. gentleman who has moved this motion (Mr. Clarke, Essex). I see that the right hon. leader of the opposition is very wrathy over this matter. I can understand that he should be wrathy; in fact, he has not got over the result of September 21. On that day, many members of his government went down to defeat, Mr. Graham was one of them, he was rejected by the electors of Brock-ville.
Now, the right hon. leader of the opposition appeals for fair-play in this case. We want fair-play too, and the electors of South Renfrew want fair-play. I would like to know if the electors of South Renfrew shall have a right to say who shall represent that constituency or not. In this ease the right hon. gentleman, through Mr. Low, decides that Mr. Graham shall represent that constituency without giving them an opportunity of saying whether he shall or not. A deal was made through Mr. Low. I suppose that the right hon. gentleman said to Mr. Low: You resign and Mr. Graham must represent that constituency whether the electors want him or not. There was no convention called in order to give them the right to say whether he should be the choice of the Liberal party. Then, in addition to that, Mr. Low was elected on September 21, to represent South Renfrew. We did not ask him to resign; he might have continued representing the constituency. The people supposed that he was qualified to represent the constituency, and, therefore, why did he resign? He was told before he resigned that he should not have resigned at that time. It was pointed out to him that there were hundreds of men up in the woods, who were present at the election of September 21, and who would be put to the expense of coming back home to poll their votes if he resigned at that particular time. Surely these people should be taken into consideration by the leader of the opposition, and those behind him who seem bound to take advantage of the absence of these people, and try and force an election on, and perhaps elect Mr. Graham. I feel that the people of South Renfrew should have an opportunity of saying whether Mr. Graham or any other person should represent the constituency, but at the same time I believe that the game should be fairly played, and that the election should take place on the latest list. By waiting Sir WILFRID LATJRIER.
a short time we can get this list. The leader of the opposition is bound to try and force this election on the list oi 1910 when he knows that hundreds of men are out of the constituency and cannot cast their votes if it is held under tnat list. He also knows that there are hundreds of men not on the list of 1910, but who have been residing in the constituency during the past two years, who will not have a vote if the election is held as the right hon. gentleman desires it to be. These people's names will appear on the very latest list, and in addition, the men who are away will be back by the 1st of March, and have an opportunity of polling their votes. The right hon. gentleman haa it in his power to keep Mr. Low here or to open the constituency. I do not want South Renfrew to be unrepresented any longer than is absolutely necessary, but I want to see that the people of that constituency who are absent shall have the right to vote, and not be disfranchised. The right hon. leader of the opposition quotes Sir John A. Macdonald's action as a precedent. He is very late in following in the footsteps of Sir John A. Macdonald. During the whole time that he was leader of the government he never followed that great leader -not in any one case. He cannot give one instance where he followed the example of Sir John A. Macdonald. The government have no desire to oppose the election in South Renfrew any longer than is necessary in order to get a vote on the latest list. We do not fear the result. Mr. Graham will likelv be allowed to go back to Brockville again the same as he did after the election of September 21. The leader of the opposition wants to rush this matter through in the hope that a vote will be taken in such a way as to secure Mr. Graham's election. I do not think he expects him to be elected. The hon. ex-Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Lemieux) went up to Eganville and threw up his hands because he said: If you do not take him	here we	are	going	totake him down	in Quebec	and	give hima seat. The	ex-minister	is quoted	ina newspaper,	and the other day	he
quoted an item in a newspaner -with regard to myself and tried to make out that it, was true. I came to the conclusion that the leader of the opposition was holding Quebec east and sitting for two seats in this House in order to give Mr. Graham a seat in Quebec east. That must have been the reason because, otherwise, the hon. exMinister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Lemitux) would not have made that statement. The leader of the opposition is trying to insinuate that we are withholding the election for some reason. I have felt that we should not go into the election just at this moment, or until we could get

the list in proper shape, or the latest list.
I would like to see it held on the latest list if possible. I would like to see these men given an opportunity of coming down from the woods and also that those on the latest list should be able to vote at this election if an election is to be held. The candidates are out now and there is no doubt of an election being held. It is not a very long time and I do not think it is unreasonable that a sufficient delay for this purpose should take place. Therefore, I do not think that the government are entitled to censure in any way for the very few days that have elapsed since the seat became vacant.


Mr. F. B. CARVELL (Carleton, N. B.).: Mr. Speaker, I only want to refer to one statement made by the right hon. leader of the government (Mr. Borden) and that is the statement made to the effect that Mr. Low had drawn his indemnity to the end of December. It must have been made for one of two reasons, either to try to make the people of the country believe that Mr. Low did not resign on the 7th of December, or for the purpose of the statement being used in the coming by-election to the prejudice of Mr. Graham because he is being supported by Mr. Low. I want to point out that I fear the right hon. gentleman has not taken the trouble to look up the law upon the subject. Mr. Low did exactly what probably 90 per cent of the members of this House do. He received a cheque on the 7th or 8th of December for his indemnity for the month of December. I do not know by what authority these cheques are issued because by section 34 of chapter 10 of the Senate and House of Commons Act it is provided that
The said allowance may be paid on the last day of each month, to the extent of $10 for each day's attendance, but the remainder shall be retained by the clerk or accountant of the proper House, until the close of the session, when the final payment shall be made.
By the courtesy of the officials in_ some way, I presume, these cheques were issued on the 7th or 8th day of December. We all know that before a member can receive his indemnity he makes a declaration that, * I have been in my place in the House for the time during which the House has been in session with the exception of so many days a certain number of days when I was ill within ten miles of the city of Ottawa.' Mr. Low would make the same declaration which every other member of this House made and section 35, subsection 2 provides what are the days of attendance in arriving at the computation.
Each day dur:ng the session on which there has been no sitting of such House in consequence of its having adjourned over such day, *or on which the member is in the place where
the session is held but is by reason of his illness unable to attend any such sitting as aforesaid, shall be reckoned as a day of attendance at such session, for the purposes of the indemnity.
Therefore, when Mr. Low made the declaration on the 8th of December that the law required him to make, the accountant of the House issued his cheque automatically and Mr. Low was absolutely entitled to it. I think that the right hon. leader of this House is getting down pretty small when he makes a statement of that kind for the purpose of making campaign material in the coming by-election!


Robert Laird Borden: The statement I made was absolutely accurate. I had it verified and I do not know' what my hon. friend makes out of it. Does he say that the county w'as not represented during that period?


Frank Broadstreet Carvell: No, I say it is pretty small politics for the Prime Minister of Canada to play.


Robert Laird Borden: I can only say that I regard a remark of that kind, coming as it does from my hon. friend, as the highest compliment I could get.


Hon. CHARLES MURPHY (Russell).: Before this motion is put, I also desire to draw attention to the continued practice of the right hon. the leader of the government (Mr. Borden) in defending the course which the government has taken in this case by resorting to the tu quoque argument. In order that this government may do something original, may get some small measure of policy of its own before the country, I would suggest that the time of the House might be saved if a certain space of time were allotted on some set day in which all these tu quoques could be set forth and then from that time forward we cculd hear something original from the government, something that they have done themselves.
The argument advanced by the right hon. the leader of the government (Mr. .Borden) as to Mr. Low having drawn his sessional indemnity on the 7th of December as an argument for the writ not being issued, is, I submit, completely negatived by the fact that you, Sir, issued your warrant on the 7th of December, declaring that there was a vacancy and addressing it to the proper officer who, in turn, would have issued another process were it not that be was restrained from doing so by not receiving the proper instructions from the government.
The leader of the government (Mr. Borden) sought to draw a parallel between my hon. friend, the member for Essex (Mr. Clarke) sitting dumb in this House when delays in other cases took place and his Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid) sitting dumb when his conduct in regard to this

election was brought to the attention of the House by the right hon. the leader of the opposition, (SiT Wilfrid Laurier) a few days ago. Let me point out to the hon. leader of the government that there is a vast difference between the two cases of sitting dumb. In the case of the hon. member for Essex, the most that could be said against him was that if he did sit dumb when these delays occurred, he was merely open to reproof as one of a hundred odd members supporting the then government. But it is vastly different in the case of the Minister of Customs. His veracity was directly challenged, he not only sat dumb when the proofs in refutation of his statement were adduced, but to-day he rcse in his place and did not seek to refute the facts advanced by the leader of the oppostion (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) in refutation of his statements in South Renfrew. Out of that comparison the member for South Essex (Mr. Clarke) comes with flying colours indeed. But the Minister of Customs (Mr. Reid) to-day stated that his only reason for desiring a delay in this case was the state of the voters' lists, that there were a great many men up in the woods. Is it not rather singular then, when the hon. the Minister of Customs was airing his eloquence in South Renfrew, that reason never occurred to him? Is it not strange that the first time we hear that from the Minister of Customs is after he has been in South Renfrew, after he has urged as a reason for the support of his candidate the expenditure of road money and other matters calculated to interest the electorate at the time of a by-election? Is it not strange that for the first time we hear this afternoon from the Minister of Customs that his real reason for the delay in this case is the state of the voters' lists, and the fact that there are hundreds of men in the woods, about whom he is so solicitous that he desires to prolong the delay in order to give them an opportunity to vote. The instances of delay cited by the right hon. the leader of the government (Mr. Borden) mav or mav not be pertinent to this case. One could only be sure of that if he investigated each case and ascertained whether or not parliament was in session at the time. If parliament was not in session then the cases would not be pertinent Howeyer that may be, in the last analysis it resolves itself into another of these tu auoque arguments which does little credit to a leader of a government having such a powerful majority as the right hon. gentleman.
After ail, the point raised by the hon. member for South Essex (Mr. Clarke) remains untouched and unanswered. The hon. member for South Essex pointed out that under the law there Mr. MURPHY.
is always a voters' list available for an election in the older parts of Ontario. If the new list is 60 days old. that is the list and it is used. If it is not 60 days old, then, according to section 6 of the Act, the list last in force is used. As the right hon. the leader of the opposition pointed out, it is open to the government to use the lists used in the provincial election in December last. But they choose not to do so and want to create the impression that by reason of the present state of the lists, which are not complete in that county, the election cannot be brought on. If that argument were to be admitted then all elections in Canada, both general and by-elections, would be made dependent on the state of the voters' lists, and not upon the action of the government of the day. In other words, an election could be put off indefinitely owing to the delay, neglect or incompetence of municipal clerks in Ontario in not sending in lists in due time. The falsity of that argument is apparent when, it is stated. 'The law is specific, there is a list available and I submit that from what I have heard as to the reasons in this case, it never entered the minds of the government until two days ago to charge as a reason for delay in going on with this election that the lists were not ready. Having regard to the large number of electors on the list in South Renfrew and to the fact that the list for only one township is still in doubt, I say that my hon. friends are deprived of the very reason they advanced for not proceeding with this election. As a matter of fact, the list which was sent back for revision was sent back because of a mere typographical error, one that is obvious on its face. I am advised'that the court was held yesterday or to-day for the revision of that list and it will be back in the hands of the clerk of the Crown in Chancery either to-day or to-morrow. It bears date of January 15, and will be in force from that day, so that to-day, if the right hon. the leader of the government were so willed, he could issue the writ for this election. In view of what has been said and of the obvious duty of the government, I venture to express the hope that the writ will issue without any further delay.



QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

[Stage Direction]
Mr. EMMERSON-
1.	When were the so-called Ocean Limited trains, known as trains No. 199 to 200, first put in operation on the Intercolonial railway?

2.	At the time of the inauguration of these trains, was there an order issued prohibiting the transportation of official and private cars by said trains?
3.	If so, when was such order recalled or repealed, if it were repealed or recalled?
4.	Has the said prohibitive order been in
operation during the years 1910 and 1911? If not, when did it first cease to be in operation ?	.
5.	What number of such official or private cars were transported during the said year 1910?
6.	How many of such cars were transported by said trains during the year 1911, and on how many occasions were cars of the officials of the Intercolonial railway transported during the past season?
7.	Were there any occasions when two of such official cars of the Board of Management were hauled on any one of such trains?
Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	The Ocean Limited trains were first put in operation in July, 1904, No. 200 leaving Montreal July 3rd, and No. 199 leaving Halifax July 4th.
2.	Yes.
3.	The order was not recalled or repealed, but in special cases official and private cars have been put on these trains. The first occasion there is any record of, being the Governor General's car on August 4, 1904, from Levis to Montreal.
4.	See answer to No. 3.
5.	Thirty-two cars, as follows:
1910.
No. of times attached to No. 200. To 199.
G.	T.R. ' Muskoka '	
3	1D. & H.. ' Miniola '	
3	0Official Govt. No. 28	
7	2Official Govt. No. 37	
3	2C.P.R. official car No.	2	
1	0Official Govt. No. 34	
5	4Private Pullman ' Olivet '	
1	1Official Govt. ' Ottawa '	
1	0.Private Pullman ' Conroy '	
1	1Private Pullman * Signet '	
1	1I.C.R. 'Campbellton'	1	3Private Pullman ' Constitution ' ..	1	0Nat. Trans. Ry. ' Transcona '	1	0Official Govt. No. 35	
0	1Private Pullman 'Plymouth Rook'. 0 Private Pullman ' Oceanic '	
0B. & A. official No. 490	
0	1Que. & Lake St. John Ry. ' Kamagamie '	
0	1


To Mr.   L.@: & T. Ry. 'Frisco' No. 502...	0	1Private car ' York '	
0	1Private car ' Cornwall '	
0	1H.	& S. W. By. No. 201	
0	1
1911.
200	199
G.T.R. ' Muskoka	'	
4	1Official Govt.	No.	28	
3	0Official Govt.	No.	37	
5	3Official Govt.	No.	34	
5	3Official Govt. 'Ottawa'	
3	0Private Pullman * Signet '	
0I.C.R. ' Campbellton '	
2Son. Ry. No. 105	
1Nat. Trans. Ry. 'Transcona'.. ..3	6G.T.R. ' Bonaventure '	
1	1Private Pullman 'Federal'	
1	1Q.C.R. ' Sherbrooke ' .. ..	
1	1Official Govt. No. 35	
5	7Private Pullman ' Sunset '	
1	0N.T. Ry. 'National'.. ..	
9	4Official Govt. No. 139 .. ..	
1	1Private Pullman ' Rocket '	
1	0P.R. Co. No. 180	
1	0C. B. & Q. No. 93	
0	1Cars of officials were	transported	31times, which number is	included in	the
above statement.
7. No.


EMPLOYMENT OF J. E. LAFORCE.
Mr. DELISLE:: 


Has J. E.: Laforce, farmer, of the county of Rimoueki, been appointed immigration agent by the government? If not, does he hold any employment whatever in the service of the government, and what is his salary ?


Mr. ROGERS.: As far as the Department, of the Interior is concerned, no.


DISMISSALS.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1.	Is the Minister of Railways and Canals aware that Alfred Couture, of Cansapscal, one of the employees on the Intercolonial railway, has been dismissed without investigation?
2.	Has an investigation been asked by said Alfred Couture. If so, has it been refused?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	No.
2.	No.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: 
Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	Truman Gass was first employed as cleaner at Truro, on the 20th October, 1910, but only as a temporary employee.
2.	He was dropped on the 30tih November, 1911, ias he failed to pass the doctor's examination and could not become 'an employee .in accordance with the Provident Fund Act.
3.	There was no charge preferred and no investigation held.
4.	Answered by number three.
5.	Eight cleaners have been taken into the employ at Truro between the 10th October, 1911 and the 25th January, 1912.

6. Roy Campbell, November 20, 1911 Edward Nichols, November 23, 1911; George Stewart, December 4, 1911; Chas. Chute, December 6, 1911; Oscar Macdonald, December 9, 1911; Foster Dart, December 11, 1911; Harry McLeod, January 3, 1912; Win. Scothern, January 11, 1912.


Mr. MACLEAN (Halifax) :: 1.	Has the Postmaster General been requested to dismiss from office Mr. Charles McEachern, postmaster at West Tatama-gouche, Colchester county, N.S.?
2.	If so, upon what grounds are such requests made, and has (Mr. McEachern been dismissed?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	(>a) On the ground of active partisanship and inconvenient site of office.
(b) No. Matter under consideration.


Mr. KYTE:: 1.	Has W. W. Payson, postmaster at Deep Brook,' Annapolis, N.S., been dismissed?
2.	If so, what are the charges upon which he was dismissed, and was any opportunity given the accused to disprove them?
3.	Who asked to have the dismissal made?
. L Will the Postmaster General grant an inquiry into the truth of the charges?


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1, 2, 3 and 4. Charges of active partisanship have been preferred against the postmaster and the matter is under inquiry.


THE PRINTING BHREAH.
Charles Murphy: Have the weekly consultation meetings between the King's Printer and the heads of the several branches at the Printing Bureau been continued since October 10, 1911?


Mr. ROCHE:: No.
* Mr. MURPHY:
1.	Have any changes been made in the duties of any of the employees of the Printing Bureau since October 10, 1911?
2.	If so, what are the names of the employees affected by such changes?


Mr. ROCHE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Norbert Lairochelle and William Wallace.


INTERCOLONIAL RAILWAY-INQUIRY OF JEFFREY BOURQUE.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: 1. Is the government aware that Mr. Jeffrey Bourque, of Lac au Saumon. P.Q., a switchman in the employment of the Intercolonial railway, is said to have sustained serious injuries in the discharge of his duty at the Intercolonial railway stationyard at Camp-bellton, N.B., on the 17th November, 1911?


Mr. COCHRANE.: 2.	Has any claim for damages, or request for steady employment been made to the government by the said Jeffrey Bourque, or any other person on his behalf by reason of the said accident?
3.	Has any report been made to the government or Railway Department by any of the Intercolonial railway officials in connection with above accident? If so, when, by whom,
ud what are the contents thereof?
4.	Has the government or Railway Department paid any damages or offered any settlement, or any steady employment on the intercolonial railway, to the said Jeffery Bourque, or does it intend to do so? If so, when.


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes. By bis father P. Bourque, in letters dated November 19th, 1911, December 1st, 1911, January 17th, 1912, also a letter addressed to the Honourable Minister from Mr. H. Boulay, M.P., recommend-: ing that something be done in the case of Mr. Bourque's son.
3.	Yes. By telegraph message dated 17th November, 1911, the date of the accident, from the General Superintendent, addressed to the chairman of the Managing Board, stating that while yardman J. Bourque was assisting weighing car in Campbellton yard early this morning and holding on side ladder, struck switch approaching the scale and was thrown under wheels of car, cutting his right arm off.
4.	No damages have been paid nor settlement offered. Bourque is not yet able to work; he has been paid weekly benefits from the date he was injured as follows:- Three dollars per week in addition to which the Insurance Association will pay hospital expenses and for surgical attendance at Campbellton. The payments will be continued until he is able to go to work, provided time does not exceed 26 weeks.
The Managing Board has under consideration the matter of providing Mr. Bourque with employment when he is able to return to work.


THE CENSUS ENUMERATORS.
Mr. LEMIEUX:: When does the Minister of Agriculture expect to pay the balance due to the census enumerators?


Mr. BURRELL:: Payment of the balances due census enumerators is being made as rapidly as is practicable. It is expected that it will be completed by the end of February.


TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILWAY COMMISSION.
Mr. SEVIGNY:: 1.	What sums have been paid since 1905, by the government or by the Transcontinental Commission to Mr. Edmond Taschereau, notary, of Quecbec?
2.	For what reasons were such sums paid?
*2245


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1:-
.January 21, 1907	$	677 21September 14, 1907	
745	48March 18, 1908	
520	00May 15, 1908	
746	00July 18, 1908	
1,419	91September 25, 1908	
1,449	35November 23, 1908	
1,965	39July 12, 1909	
1,300	00July 19, 1910	
949	24September 20, 1911	,	
600 49September 26, 1911	
532	95September 26, 1911	
3,061	45

2. Legal expenses in connection with right of way.


Mr. SEVIGNY:: What sums have been paid, since 1908, to Messrs. Alexandre Taschereau, Arthur Cannon, or to the law firm of Taschereau, Roy Cannon, Parent and Fitzpatrick, Quebec, by the government or by the Transcontinental Commission?


Francis Cochrane: Statement of amounts paid to Mr. L. A. Taschereau since 1908, by the National Transcontinental Railway Commissioners:
March 1, 1909	$1,276 50
August 10, 1909	 660 00
December 20, 1909	 555 00
March 30, 1910	 489 50
September 19, 1910 .... 427 50
October 17, 1910	 250 00
November 17, 1910	 186 23
November 21, 1910	 255 00
March 25, 1911	 330 00
April 19, 1911	 423 50
August 4, 1911	 372 00
September 27, 1911 .... 400 00
January 26, 1912	 473 00


To Mr.   L.@: ' A. Cannon since 1908: December 22, 1911, $126. Nothing was paid to the firm of Taschereau, Roy, Cannon, Parent & Fitzpatrick since 1908, by the National Transcontinental railway.
Amount paid by the Department of Railways and Canals for the Intercolonial railway since 1908, to Taschereau and Cannon is $250.85. To the firm of Taschereau, Roy, Cannon, Parent & Fitzpatrick since 1908, $792.79; to L. A. Taschereau, $97.20.


Mr. LAVALLEE:: 1.	What position does Mr. A. E. Doucet. civil engineer, hold on the Transcontinental railway ?
2.	What is his salary?
3.	What are his functions ?	' _
4. Was it his duty to fix the sites for stations along the line of the Transcontinental railway within the district under his control as engineer?
5.	Has he so far selected the sites for such stations in the county of Bellechasse?
6.	After having determined upon the sites for such stations has he changed his mind and selected other locations for such stations?
7.	What are the stations that have been thus changed?
8.	When were they changed, for what reasons, and at whose request?


Mr. COCHRANE:: 1.	District engineer, district ' B.'
2.	$400 per month.
3.	Has charge of location and construction. of district ' B.'
4.	It was his duty to recommend the location of the stations in conjunction with the assistant chief engineer of the Grand Trunk Pacific railway.
5.	Yes.
6.	No.
7.	Answered by No. 6.
8.	Answered by No. 6.


MOTIONS AGREED TO WITHOUT DISCUSSION.
[Stage Direction]
Por a copy of all minutes of proceedings, records, orders, instructions or other writings made and had, or given or authorized to he made, had or given by the Board of National Transcontinental Railway Commissioners, from the date of the appointment of Mr. R. W. Leonard, as a member of the said Board and chairman thereof, to the present date; also of all letters, telegrams, instructions or other documents made or had or passed, since the said appointment by and between the Minister of Railways and Canals, or other members of the government or by any person by authority of the government and the said chairman of Board of National Transcontinental Railway Commissioners, or the secretary of said Board;, also of any orders in council relating to the appointment of an assistant chairman or an assistant to the chairman of said Board, together with a copy of all letters, papers, instructions or documents relating thereto; as well as a statement of all payments of moneys in the way of salaries or compensation made to the incumbent of the office of assistant chairman or assistant to the chairman of said Board, and of all papers, letters or instructions made, written or received by the said minister or the said chairman relating to or in any way connected with the payment or authorization of said salary or compensation.-Mr. Em-merson.
For a copy of all papers, statements, letters, telegrams, statement of claim and application, minutes of tlie_ evidence taken on any investigation held, with all reports thereon, and all other documents in any way relating to a claim of Earl Ash, for damages caused by and resulting from the destruction by fire of property owned, occupied and possessed by the claimant, alleged to have been caused by fire and sparks from a locomotive of the Intercolonial Railway of Canada, and operated by said railway.-Mr. Emmerson.
For a copy of all letters, complaints, telegrams, evidence, reports, or other papers, relating to charges against Robert Leithpad, James Blair, Duncan Gillis, and Calvin McKenzie, all employees of the Intercolonial
224?
[Stage Direction]
Railway, in the county of Pictou, for partisanship and to the investigation of said charges.-Mr. Macdonald.
For a copy of the letters patent relating to the office of Governor General of Canada, of the commission issued to the present Governor General, and of the instructions accompanying the same.-Mr. Macdonald.
For a copy of all letters, telegrams, reports and other documents in relation to the mail contract service between Stellarton station and the post office since October 1, 1911, and as to the cancellation of the contract, for said service with the present contractor.^Mr. Macdonald.
For a copy of all letters, telegrams, correspondence, reports and other documents in relation to the mail contract between River John railway station and the post office, and between River John and Hodson, respectively, since October 1, 1911, and as to the cancellation of the contract for said service with Elijah Logan and the making of a contract for the same with one Gannon.-Mr. Macdonald.

Mr. R.: BLAIN (Peel), moved:-
That, in the opinion of this House, wherever a telephone system exists, or is hereafter established, in any rural section of Canada, a telephone should be placed in each post office in such sections by the Post Office Department.
He said: Before this motion is dealt with I would like to make a few remarks. It has always been the pride of Canada that we should have a first class postal service in every part of the country. I think the efforts of every government since confederation have been directed towards this end, and the resolution I am moving this afternoon has for its object the giving of better mail accommodation to the farmers in the rural districts of our country.
For many years we had but one telephone system in Canada, the Bell. It was found that telephones became a necessity as years went on, and to-day they are a naramount necessity in every paTt of the country. In many parts of Canada other telephone systems have been established in competition with the Bell system and assist in giving a better telephone communication to the farmers in different sections of the country.
In Peel county one township council has issued bonds and constructed its own telephone system, and is reaching almost every house in the township. This applies also to many other counties in Canada. The result is that the farmers have the advantage of a telephone in their homes. My resolution provides that whenever such a system is operated either by the Bell Telephone Company or by any other company, the Post Office Department shall connect the post office in that section, at the expense of the government.	*


Francis Cochrane: The salary paid to the country postmaster to-day is so small that in some cases postmasters are unwilling or unable to put a telephone in their houses for the accommodation of the farmers.
_ As this House is well aware, the question of a better salary for country postmasters has been the subject of discussion for rnajny years; complimentary to the late government, I may say that they increased the salary of the rural postmasters, and, to that extent, received the approval of the people of this country. I think it should be the aim of the government now in power to further increase the salaries of the postmasters in rural districts.
Some hon. members. Hear, hear.


Mr. BLAIN.: That is one of the objects of this resolution. It is not my idea that the government should put in a telephone system where one does not now exist. I simply propose that the government should go over the field and where telephone systems are in operation have the rural post offices connected up at the expense of the government. I think it would be in the interest of the people of this country if that were done.


Mr. NESBITT.: Would the hon. gentleman allow me a iquestion? Would you propose to increase the salary of the postmaster or postmistress where telephones are put in? Of course, the telephone would mean extra work.


Richard Blain: That is a fair question, and one which should receive consideration.	_
As I said a moment ago my aim is to assist the government, if they require assistance in this way, or rather to impress the government with the fact that under this resolution they would have an opportunity of increasing the very small salaries which are now paid to the rural postmasters throughout the country.
My hon. friend's question, if I understand it correctly, assumes that if such a policy were adopted by the government, and telephones were installed in the different post offices, it would increase the labour of the postmasters in these post offices. That is very likely true, although personally I do not think it would be very much more labour for the postmaster, if, for example, a farmer living within a mile or so of the post office should call up on the telephone and ask if there was any mail in the office for him. I do not think it would take much more of the postmaster's time to answer the telephone than it would to entertain the farmer for half an hour if he came down to find out whether there was anything in the post office for him.


Edward Walter Nesbitt: They do both.


Richard Blain: My point, Mr. Speaker, is that the farmers do not complain a great deal about going to the post office when they receive mail, but they do complain of the number of times they travel themselves, or send somebody, and come home without anything. That is exactly what I wish to avoid.
I think it is only fair that when the enterprise of the people in a rural section of this country has reached the point where they will invest their own money to have a telephone system, that the government should join them and see that the postal system of the country is connected up with the telephone system. I think that is a reasonable request, and one which should appeal to the judgment of hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House.
In the large centres of population they have a daily delivery. In smaller centres they are close to the post office, and somebody is passing it almost every day, therefore, the task of going for the mail is not a very serious one, and is not at all comparable with what they have to meet in the rural districts.
I am not asking in this resolution that the government expend its money in the construction of telephone systems. That has already been taken up in some places by private enterprise. In some of the provinces it has been dealt with by the provincial governments. I do not ask that this government should appropriate a large amount of money for this purpose, but I do ask that we simply follow the people- not lead the people in this instance-and where they have telephonic communication, the government should join with them and see that the post offices are connected with the telephone system, so that there may be a good and efficient service.
At the present time most of the farmers in these rural sections can call up their storekeepers, or their neighbours. If that be true, I say it is in the interest of the farmer, and calculated to make the home life on the farm more acceptable, that the government should see to it that the post offices in these sections are connected, so that the entire system would be perfect and up to date.
I do not think that the resolution is one which requires any extended remarks from me. This is a matter [DOT] which has had consideration in this House in former years. At the last session I had the honour of directing the attention of the ex-Postmaster General (Mr. Lemieux) to the matter, and he was good enough to say he thought it was worthy of very serious consideration. Now, I am quite sure he is still of that opinion.
I am. not going to press the question on the government. I fealize it has been in office but a short time, and has had
many things to face and deal with. I am not going to be over anxious, but in these days of people demanding a better postal service, I think the time is -opportune to take up this subject.
There are a good many sections of the country to which this resolution would not apply, but, in other sections, even in the province of Ontario, there are still many places where they only have a mail three times a week, and in some cases only twice a week. In fact, in some places not at all, as my hon. friend from Fronte-nac (Mr. Edwards) says.
I have many facts and figures which I could cite, but I do not think I should take up the time of the House with them. However, if my hon. friends on both sides of this House will support this resolution, simple as it is, I think they will receive the approval of the rural districts of our country.
In conclusion, I simply wish to move the adoption of the resolution, and direct the attention of the goverment, and more particularly of my hon. friend the Postmaster General (Mr. Pelletier) to an earnest and thoughtful consideration of the question.	.


Mr. SPEAKER.: My attention has been drawn to this resolution, and after looking up the authorities I must say my verdict is that the resolution is out of order inasmuch as it implies the purchase and putting in of telephones, which must be paid for out of the revenues of the country.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: If the House is willing, we might allow the discussion to go on by consent. This is a matter of public interest and one of considerable importance. At all events, the debate on it will probably be adjourned.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: General in the session in which such vote, resolution, address or Bill is proposed.
The constitutional provision which regulates the procedure of the Canadian House of Commons in this respect applies not only to motions directly proposing a grant of public money but also to those which involve such a grant.
It is clear to me that if this motion carried it would involve such a grant.
A member who has not received the permission of the Crown has not been allowed to move the House into committee on a resolution providing for the purchase hnd exportation by the government of certain depreciated silver coinage.
Then with regard to the other question, I find this in ' May's Parliamentary Practice,' speaking of the authority of the Crown:
By a standing order, 20th March, 1806, ' This House will receive no petition for any sum relating to public service, or proceed upon any motion for a grant or charge upon the public revenues, whether payable out of the consolidated fund, or out of monies to be provided by parliament, but what is recommended from the Crown.' And this rule is extended, by the uniform practice of the House, to any motion which, though not directly proposing a grant or charge upon the public revenue, involves the expenditure of public money.
The purchase of these telephones would clearly involve an expenditure of public money. For these reasons I should be obliged to rule that the motion is out of order.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: The only thing I want to make clear is that I did not raise any objection.


Richard Blain: I suppose there will be no objection in allowing the discussion to go on. I did not propose to press the resolution, it was my intention to withdraw it.
I .appreciate what the Speaker hais sard, and I do not wish to violate the rules. If necessary, I would ask that the resolution he allowed to stand, until such time as I could move an adjournment in committee, so as to bring it within the rules of the House.


Thomas Simpson Sproule: As the motion has now been ruled out of order, there is nothing before the House.


NATIONAL MEANS OF COMMUNICATION.
Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG (East Lambton) moved:: That, in the opinion of this House, a commission should be appointed to investigate the systems of national telegraphs and telephones, wireless telegraphs and cables, also postal conditions, laws and regulations, parcel post, means of collecting and distributing Mr. SPEAKER.
mails, with a view to submitting such data and information to the Post Office Department as would help to improve existing conditions in all the above, and to further inquire into postal facilities in rural districts in other countries in order that a better [DOT]ystem of rural free mail delivery may be inaugurated.
He said: My object in asking for the appointment of this commission is to obtain definite data and statistics with reference to these great public utilities. In the Halifax platform, which was issued in August, 1907, the present Prime Minister of Canada used the following words:
It has been demonstrated in Great Britain that telegraphs and telephones can be successfully operated in connection with the Post Office Department. I see no reason why a similar system should not he inaugurated and carried out successfully in Canada. Few people realize that at the present time Canada owns and operates 6,586 miles of state tele-rraph lines. These lines have not been remunerative for the reason that they have been established in thinly settled portions of the country where private enterprise could find no adequate return. If we are prepared to invest national capital in thinly peopled and unremunerative localities, why should we hesitate in those portions of the country where operations can he carried on at a profit? I do not forget the necessity that our great railways must be equipped with telegraph and telephone lines, nor do I forget the principle of justice to invested capital which I have already invoked. Having regard to these considerations onr policy should include the establishment, after due investigation, of a system of national telegraphs and telephones under conditions which shall be just to capital already invested.
I feel satisfied, Mr. Speaker, that out of the Halifax platform have already come many great reforms in the Dominion of Canada, but none greater than the proposed legislation. I think we should go about acquiring these great public utilities under the common-sense business methods^ and there is no question in my mind that if they were nationalized they would become a source, not only of revenue, but of great advantage to the people of Canada. There are five great means of transmitting intelligence in this country: The telegraph, the telephone, wireless telegraphy, cables, and the post office. All these means of transmitting intelligence are of vital importance to every man, woman and child in the country. It is, therefore, our duty to investigate and gather statistics with regard to these important facilities, with a view to nationalize them, and make them part of the Post Office Department of Canada. I propose to give some reasons for asking for this legislation. For the past five years I have given considerable time and attention to gathering statistics | with regard to these great national under-| takings. Knowing as I do the success that

has attended the nationalization of these utilities in foreign lands, I feel confident that the time is not far distant when the people of Canada will demand, at least, that an investigation be made with a view to placing these utilities under the Dominion government. In the platform of the right hon. the Prime Minister, which I have quoted, he refers to these utilities. He calls attention to the fact that we had in Canada at that time over 6,000 miles of telegraph lines that were not remunerative. To-day we have 8,000 miles of telegraph lines, owned, controlled, and operated by the Dominion government; and these telegraph lines, instead of being a source of revenue to the government, cost this country last year the sum of $270,000. We have over 600 offices for the management of these telegraphic enterprises. The largest telegraph company we have in the Dominion of Canada, namely, the Canadian Pacific railway, control, own and operate over 12,000 miles of pole lines, and over 76,000 miles of wire; and their income, after paying all expenses, amounted last year to the handsome sum of $1,270,000.
That amount, according to the books which the Canadian Pacific Railway placed at the disposal of the Tailway commission [DOT]within the last few weeks, shows that they only invested in that enterprise, $6,600,000. You can readily see that within six years, by that method of calculation, the amount of capital invested would be returned to them in dividends. You will find that the Canadian Pacific Railway have been able to reaudit the statement of the audit office as placed before the railway commission. They have tried to show that there are certain charges which should have been included in the statement of the investment which came from their own audit office, but after investigating that you cannot come to any other conclusion than I have that, in so far as these statements are concerned, they are not worthy of consideration and that the actual income from the investment of $6,600,000 'amounted last year to $1,270,000.
Let us take the next greatest telegraph company we have in the Dominion of Canada, the Great Northwestern, with its 17,000 miles of pole lines and its 50,000 miles of wire. Thev have been able to cover up their earnings to a very great_ extent because a large portion of their stock is held in the United States and the enterprise is controlled and operated from that point. If you take into consideration all the other telegraph lines in the Dominion of Canada-and when I say that, l am speaking in reference to the telegraph lines of the railways-you will come to the conclusion that the Canadian Pacific Railway own, operate and control nearly half the miles of pole line and more than half the miles of wire in Canada and
if that company are able to place before the Railway Commission figures which go to show that they have only invested $6,600,000 in the enterprise, it is not too much to expect that if we were to attempt to purchase all the telegraph lines and wires in Canada the cost should not exceed $13,000,000 or $14,000,000. But then, you would have control of the telegraph wires that operate our railways; 'SO that you have to take from that the wires necessary to operate the railway systems. When you came to figure it ud you would find that you could not possibly invest more than, say $10,000,000, in order to enable you to own and operate the commercial telegraph lines. Ten million dollars is not such an enormous amount when you take into consideration the rates which have been charged against people in the east and in the west and at the same time the manner in which this public utility has been conducted. In addition to that the Canadian Pacific. railway are paid through our Own Cable board $65,000 per annum in connection with the cable service, which would help to pay the interest on our own capital.
Now, I desire to refer to the telephone companies and to call your attention to the fact that we have 460 independent telephone companies in Ontario while, in the Dominion, it is estimated that we have in the neighbourhood of a thousand telephone companies. In the United States they have 15,000 independent telephone companies operating over 4,000,000 phones and costing, as they claim, over $400,000,000. The independent telephone companies in our country are practically on their knees to the great Bell Telephone Company, especially in the eastern provinces and the proposal that I have to make to parliament is that we should own the trunk lines of telephone, that these trunk lines should go to the independent companies and let the municipalities or the independent companies own, control and operate these lines and make them local concerns. After investigating to some extent the operation of telephone lines in different foreign countries I find that the most feasible plan, as far as Canada is concerned, is that we should at once either take over the trunk lines and operate them or else build trunk lines in Canada in connection with the telegraph lines because we must recognize that the telegraph and telephone should go hand-in-hand. Wires that are used for one service can readily be used for the other. The provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta own and operate their own telenhone systems. We should, at the earliest possible date connect up the eastern trunk lines with that great northwestern country and with these great western provinces so that we will be able to assist in such a way as would be possible, did we own, as we should, the telegraph and tele-

phone lines running through that western country.


Mr. McCRANEY.: Does the hon. gentleman propose that this parliament should take over the lines which are now under the control of these three western provinces?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I have no such proposition in my mind. I do- not think it would be advisable for this government to go into the different municipalities in Canada arid attempt to own. control and operate these lines. In many foreign countries they 'have systems whereby they do control, own and operate all the telephone and telegraph lines in those countries, such as Germany, hut in other places, where they own and operate trunk lines and where they have connected them up with the municipalities they find that it is an altogether better system and that the conditions which arise in the different municipalities are such that they have an altogether better service.
We have in Canada some twenty-five wireless telegraph stations. Some years ago the late government entered into a contract with the Marconi Company for the construction by that company of a number of wireless stations in Canada. The Marconi Company agreed to build these wireless stations for $5,000 each and to include in each .station comfortable homes for the operators in charge. From a return which I asked last year we find that these stations have cost Canada from $10,000 to $20,000 each and that in addition to this we are paying tens of thousands of dollars to the Marconi Company to operate a large proportion of those wireless telegraph stations. But we are in this position with regard to these great utilities. As far as the telegraph system is concerned we own and control the lean end of it, the productive end is turned over to the great monopolies. It is the same with the telephone system. You find rural districts doing their utmost to gather together a sufficient number of people to organize independent companies in rural districts in order that they may have some of the comforts which accrue frorn a telephone system. But the productive end of the telephone system is owned, operated and controlled by the Bell Telephone Company in Ontario and Quebec and in some of the eastern provinces by other telephone companies.
The wireless telegraph stations are in much the same position. I want the House to recognize that we have some twenty-five wireless telegraph stations in Canada costing from $10,000 to $20,000 each. Fifteen of these stations are controlled by the Marconi Telegraph people. They are the profitable end' of the wireless- telegraph stations. The unprofitable end of that whole system is operated by this govern-Mr. ARMSTRONG (E. Lambton)
ment at a very great loss. I am a firm believer in wireless telegraphy being taken over as a public utility and placed under the control and operation of this government in order that not only our shores may receive the splendid advantages that accrue from having these stations established there but that, in the not far distant future, we may have stations throughout the Dom-minion of Canada and that the long distances that separate our east from our great west may be overcome by a system of wireless telegraphy.
I shall also endeavour to place before the House a number of statistics with reference to parcel post systems in European countries. The position of the parcel post system is similar to that of the other utilities to which I have referred. Our Post Office Department does the unprofitable end of the carrying of parcels in this country, the profitable end is done by the express companies, and they are able to pay dividends of 100 per cent and 200 per cent on their capital. The unprofitable end is done by the Post Office Department, but as soon as it gets up to a few ounces in weight the postal rate begins to be prohibitive and the express companies step in and take the remunerative end of the parcel post. I have no desire to urge upon the House the need of -establishing -a parcel post for Canada; I shall only urge the need of establishing a parcel post system in the rural districts, what you might term a rural parcel post. This parcel post system will be confined to rural mail or stage routes and only there so that the great departmental houses will not have the advantages that many of the people of our country are inclined to think they might have if we had a general parcel post system for the Dominion.
I trust that my good friend the Postmaster General (Mr. Pell-etier) will not think I am encroaching on his -duties as Postmaster General, in placing this resolution before the House. I hope that this commission, if it is appointed, will have the privilege of gathering in other lands material that will be of untold benefit to the Post Office Department -of Canada, and that they will Teport to the Po-stmaster General on the important matters of rural free mail delivery and parcel post in other countries. Our present system of rural free mail delivery is not only extravagant, but it is breeding -contention and strife in the different districts in which it is in operation, and I would throw out as -a suggestion to the Postmaster General that the time has come when the Post Office Department will have to make a separate branch for this service and place over it a man who is not only competent, but i-s willing and ready to further th-e interests of rural free mail delivery in 'Canada. I believe that

many of the inspectors in the department to-day are not anxious to further the interests of rural mail delivery, they do not like to assume the added responsibilities that it entails. I sincerely hope the day is not far distant when the Postmaster General will undertake these reforms, and that he will see' that these inspectors will do their duty in this regard and will carry out the wishes of the people in reference to this great national undertaking.
I would: like to place before the House some figures with regard to the telegraph systems of Canada.
Canada owns in government-owned telegraphs and -cables, 8,406 miles, of which 8,150 miles are telegraph lines, or l-and lines. She has 603 offices, -and the number of mess-ages sent in 1910-11 amounted to 249,915. The expenditure in 1910-11 amounted to $432,970.04, while the revenue amounted to only $169,585.15, leaving a deficit of $263,384.89.
The Canadian government get the lean end -of the telegraph business. In the same w-ay they get the lean end of the cable, telephone and postal business, while the monopolies h-ave control of -the profitable end of -these systems.
Note the fact that the Dominion -has 603 offices with only 8,000 mates of line, white the Great Northwestern Telegr-aph ComPany, the only -one that competes with the Canadian Pacific railway in extent of mileage, own, as they -did ini 1910-11, 11,234 miles of pole lines, and 50,092 miles of wire line, and sent 2,907,495 messages, having only 1,183 offices, or le-s-s than double the number of offices- run -by the Canadian government, -and -send three times as many messages.
The Canadian Pacific railway in that
year ^operated 12,257 miles of pole lines, with 76,175 mites of wire, sending messages to the extent- of 3,431,493, and the total number of th-eir olfic-es is 1,372, or a little over double the offices now operated by the government.
The Western Union, the third largest of the chartered -companies, in 1910 had 2 639 miles of telegraph pole line-s, with 11,024 miles of wire, sending 551,764 messages with 217 offices.
The North American Telegraph Company, Limited, in 1910 operated 605 -miles of line and 783 miles of wire, and sent 38,015 messages with 83 offices.
The Grand Trunk Pacific r-ailway in 1910 operated 1,699 mile-s of pole lines, 5,081 miles of wire, and 71,154 messages, with 73 offices.
The Ailgom-a Central railway in 1910 h-adi 130 miles of lane, 174 miles of line wire, sent 3,639 messages, -and had o-nl-y four1 offices.
The Temiscaimingue and Northern Ontario r-ailway in 1910 had 265 miles of pole line and 1,865 unites of wire, and sent 131,-lu6^ messages with twenty-two offices.
The total number of miles of pol-e line owned by -all the companies in Canada is 28,729.
The total number of m-i-le-s of line and wire operated by telegraph, telephone and cable companies in 1910 was 145,997.
The total number of messages taken and delivered over -all these lines, not including press messages, was 7,134,665.
T-he -total number of offl-ces was 2,934.
You will readily see that the 'Canadian Pacific Railway Company own- and operate nearly half the total number of -miles of pole line in the Dominion, and -over half the miles of -wire, -and send nearly hal-f the me-s-sages; so that with -an estimate placed before you by that company of 1-es-s than seven million of -dollars -as- the value of their pole -lines, lines of wire, etc., the estimate I have made of $15,000,000 would be m-ore t-han sufficient to purchase all the telegraph lines in -existence in Canada to-Qiay. The annual eliarge (for this amount of money -at three per cent would be $400,000. In ord-er -to make the proposition pay interest at three per cent on $15,000,000 you would need a surplus of $400,000 per annum. The -surplu-s of the Canadian Pacific Railway telegraphs operating half the proposed mileage has been over one anil-lion per year on the average for th-e past -six years. I-f, on the other hand, we were to buy the Canadian Pacific Railway system -and charged them so much for operating -their trains over that system, the government getting the rest, there would be -a still greater revenue. At the present rates of messages the government could count on a profit of -on-e million dollars per year. So on an investment of $7 000000 the government -could count on having their -m-on-ey returned in at least six years or the earnings could be applied to -a reduction of rates.
I -have some figures which have been placed before the Railway Commission within the last fe-w weeks by tile Canadian l-acihc Railway Company, and I will ask tne House to be -allowed to place them on Hansard.5


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: I do not think th-e House would object to miy hon. friend placing these figures on ' Hansard,' as they are most interesting.
ARMSTRONG. I appreciate what the Postmaster General has said. These are copies of statements taken from the audit books of the Canadian Pacific Railway telegraph line, showing the commercial end of their -business.


REVISED EDITION ' COMMONS CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY COMPANY.
[Stage Direction]
Estimate of Value of Plant.
Pole line and equipment	$3,897,238	39Wires	
2,190,965	37Cables	
275,044	11Call box system, Toronto to Montreal, &c„ 4,865 boxes at $7 each.	34,055	00104 linemen's equipment at $138.25.	14,378	00
37 gang's equipment (G. and B.) at
$646.49	
23,920	13Instruments	
119,149	40Batteries and dynamos	
50,559	00Furniture	
41,109	00Material in stock	
50,000	00
[Stage Direction]
Summary of Miles of Lines and Canadian Pacific Railway, estimate of Value.
Miles. Cost.
Atlantic division	
1,047	$332,141	42Eastern division	
1,642	466,806	14Ontario division	
1,873	566,722	86Lake Superior division.. ..	1,117	519,700	67Manitoba division	2,333	636,792	19Saskatchewan division.. ..	1,349	333,308	91Alberta division	
1,448	476,750	33British Columbia division. 1,299	585,011	87
Miles of pole line.. .. 12,108 $3,897,238 39 C.P.R. Tel. miles of wire.. 75,872
This averages $321.87 per mile for poles and cross arms, including labour. $44.25 for one wire gives actual cost of 1 wire.

[Stage Direction]
Earnings.	Year ending .Tune 30.		
1906.	1907.	1908.$ cts. 1,016,505 16 441,937 86 78,329 13	S cts. 1,243,276 16	$ cts. 1,173,859 33414,542 71	296,747 2383,218 98	81,319 525,005 32	5,217 47	3,586 133,059 60	3,835 42	3,700 5952,793 92	61,874 14	63,658 905,273 04 2,982 57	7,034 05	7,729 632,774 18	3,173 6960,557 17	55,333 80	55,793 028,160 68	8,342 36	7,910 0410,886 65	11,220 59	11,024 34 12,177 72Sundries	2,067 50	2,515 35	$1,687,558 60	$1,900,444 39	$1,713,219 82
Earnings.
1909.
1910.
$ cts. $
cts.
Local and C.P.R. proportion of conjoint. C.P.R. proportion of conjoint checks...
Press	
Markets	
Guaranteed messages	
Cables, C.P.R. proportion	
Premiums and tolls on money transfers
Connections	
Leased wires	
Pole rentals	
Weather reports	
Sundries	
Total	
1,300,564 22 295,807 85 76,683 96 5,859 31 3,851 03 63,735 34 8,307 26 5,166 14 66,398 50 7,910 04 11,024 34 12,177 72
1,550,255 21 346,963 22 79,775 55 5,385 22 4,529 99 79,479 39 9,741 97 3,731 39 73,043 95 10,645 27 10,806 84 1,180 00
1,855,785 71
2,171,518 00
Mr. ARMSTRONG (E. Lambton)

CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY COMPANY. Commercial Telegraph Lines.
Earnings, Years 1885 to 1910 (Audit Office Statement of Earnings, Expenses and Net
figures).
Period.	Earnings.	Expenses.
	$ cts.	8 cts.
Year ending June 30,'ll	 .. .	2,467,042.30 2.171.518.00 1,855,785.71 1,713,219,82 1,900,444.39 1,687,558.60 1,423,662.33 1,316,609.87 1.230.982.01 1,045,926.06 451.749.71 912.775.18 943,639.54 989,327.57 764,640.41 642,397.03 592,672.05 604,817.75 633,634.31 648,973.92 629,092.07 549.422.44 459.962.44 407,932.30 345.159.19 105.467.72	1,196,899.08 1,057,783.35 933,137.61 887,534.41 882,640.87 728,762.24
„ „ .. 30, '10			
* .. u 30, '09			
„ .. 30, '08			
.. - 30, '07				
		
		30. '05			
" M m 30, J04 			590,722.89 547,438.15 492,902.88 218,295.29
,	30, '03			
m t. 30, '02 			
Six months to t, 30, '01			
Year ending Dec. 31, '00			
		31, '99			489,807.64 457,097.36
* 31, '98			
	31, '97			
.1 .. „ 31, '96			336,030.71
m „ 31, '95				
		 31, '94	 it -ii „ 31, '93			342,411.52 335,736.80
ti i. „ 31, '92			
[DOT]i i. ,i 31, '91			328,707.66 288,697.36 241.757.76 207.952.76 180,794.89
.1 „ 31, '90....			
i. i. „ 31, ,89			
	31, '88			
.1 .. .. 31, '87			
		
" i, 31, '85			19,692.15
		
Net Earnings:.
S cts.
1,270,143.22
1,113,734.65
922,648.15
825.685.41 1,017,803.52
958,796.36
788.229.83
725,886.98
683,543.86
553,023.18
233.454.42
449,259.13
453,831.95
532,230.21
387,063.72
306,566.32
290,410.71
262,406.23
297,897.51
302,987.53
300,384.41
260,725.08
218,204.68
199,979.64
164,364.30
54,848.47
65,773.04
They want to re-audit the Audit Office figures.
Note.-The above statement of ' expenses ' does not include the following:-
(a)	Expenses for salaries and material carried in accounts of Railway Departments.
Should not in any event.
(b)	Expenses for salaries and material carried in Railway Maintenance Appropriation Accounts.
No reason to do so.
(c)	Rental of offices occupied by Telegraph Department at Vancouver, Lethbridge, Calgary, Revelstoke, Moosejaw, and Fort William, no charge being carried on the books of the railway company against the Telegraph Department.
Help each other anyway.
(d)	Rental of right of way on railway company's property.
Railway company has to have the telegraph system.
(c) Interest on capital invested. Have to invest capital to run railway.
(f) Proportion of expenses of general management, auditing, purchasing, engineering and law departments, which are borne by the railway company, and no proportion of which can be actually allocated to telegraph department.
72}
Works both ways. Only a portion of latter should be charged.
Now, let me take up a little of your time in calling your attention to the discrimination in rates on the part of this great company; and I wish it to he distinctly understood that I do not wish to antagonize that company in any particular. 1 give this statement merely to demonstrate to the House the advisability at least of investigating this whole question. I am satisfied that if that is done, we will come to the conclusion that these rates are exorbitant and unfair, especially to the people of the western provinces. I hope the day is not far distant when our telegraph rates to the western provinces will he one-half what they are to-day or even a great deal less, and I believe we could have them so if we had national-cwned telegraphs. Let me call your attention to the following rates:
From Montreal to Toronto, 333 miles, 25c.
Brandon to Moosejaw, approximately 265 miles, 40c.
[Stage Direction]
Moosejaw to Swift Current, 175 miles, 40c.
Regina to Saskatoon, 160 miles, 40c.
Ottawa to Windsor, 482 miles, 25c.
Regina to Calgary, 480 miles, 60c.
Quebec to Toronto, 513 miles, 25c.	[DOT]
Brandon to Swift Current, 375 miles, 60c.
Quebec to Windsor, 720 miles, 25c.
Brandon to Calgary, 705 miles, 60c.
Rimouski to Windsor, 900 miles, 25c.
Winnipeg to Edmonton, 800 miles, 75c.
Halifax to Schreiber, miles, 60c., with a relay at Sudbury and Montreal.
Halifax to Thessalon, 75c.
The last two are practically over the same wire. These figures go to show that discriminations are not in northwestern Canada alone.
Frank Broadstreet Carvell: Are the rates the hon. gentleman has quoted all over the same lines or do they cover other lines?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: They are the Canadian Pacific railway lines and the Great North Western.


Mr. CLEMENTS.: Can the hon. gentleman give us a comparison between the Canadian Pacific railway and the Great Northwestern on one side and the government telegraph lines on the other?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: The government telegraphs are all in outlying sections-on the Gulf of St. Lawrence, in the Yukon and elsewhere. The government operates the unprofitable sections so far as telegraph messages are concerned; the profitable end of the business is operated by the companies. The telegraph companies carry a message from Quebec to Buffalo, about six hundred miles, for 35 cents, for which the Canadian Pacific Railway : or Great Northwestern get only 174 cents. Take a message from New York to Chicago by Canadian Pacific Railway. They send it to Montreal, and relay it there. That is, the Canadian Pacific Railway carries the message 2,000 miles with a relay and gets 374 cents. But if that message is to be delivered in Montreal, saving the relay and 550 miles to Chicago, the Canadian rate will be 75 cents. I feel confident, from the examination I have made with reference to the cost of telegraph lines, not only in the Dominion of Canada, but in other parts of the world, that a good round return could be made on rates such as 25 cents from Halifax to Winnipeg, and 50 cents from Halifax to Vancouver. Some western rates are the following:
Windsor to Sydney Cape Breton approximately 1,400 miles, 30c.
"Regina to Sudbury, 1,150 miles, $1.00.
"Moosejaw to Ottawa, 1,700 miles, $1.00.
Ottawa to Moose Man, 1,550 miles, $1.00
North Bay to Moose Man, 1,275 miles, $1.00.
Messages for similar distances in eastern Canada cost 30 cents.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Now, I think it worth while to call to the attention of the House to the position taken by the Postmaster General of the LTnited States within the last few days. The Postmaster General lias announced, so far as he is personally concerned, a policy of taking over the telegraph lines in the United States, stating at the same time that these lines would cost $250,000,000. Assuming that practically all the telegraph lines in Canada could be taken over at the price I named some time ago, this means that the Postmaster General of the United States is prepared to pay $12 per head more to acquire the lines in the United States than would be necessary for us to pay to acquire the lines in Canada. The Po(stmastefr 'General of th|e United States distinctly states that he will be able to cut one-third off the rates in that country, even though paying so large a sum for the lines. If he can do that with the tremendous amount of water in the investment how much better off we shall be in comparison. The United States rates are practically the same as those in Canada, the rates in their west and in our west being particularly much alike. The rate of 25 cents from Windsor to Quebec was established some years ago by statute. In the United States they have a law under which government messages are sent at 1 cent a word up to 1,000 miles with a minimum of 20 words. Canada has not any government rate arrangement with the large companies. At the rate I have just quoted, the government of the United States would be able to send a message from New York to California for 40 cents for 20 words, and from Washington to Florida at 40 cents for 20 words.
We are too apt to think that the companies interested in our telephones are Canadian companies. But you will find that the bulk of the stock of each of the principal companies is held in the United States and that the companies are operated from New York. There is not a British owned cable between the motherland and Canada, every one of the cables being owned and operated by men in New York. The Mackay company is not an operating company; it is only a holding company for the postal Telegraph and Commercial Cable and many others. In 1907, they had a controlling interest in the Bell Telephone Company of the United States, and over 38 per cent of the stock of the Bell Telephone Company of Canada is owned by the American Telephone and Telegraph Company of the United States. Heretofore, on complaint of a particular body, these monopolies, such as the telegraph, telephone and express companies, would sometimes make reductions gratuitously; but now that they are compelled to go before the commission, no reductions are made in

their rates without the public appearing before the Railway Commission and fighting for their rights to the bitter end. When the people of Canada appointed the Railway Commission, they did a just and wise thing. But we must remember that from the time of its establishment, any individual or body wishing to have rates lowered on telegraphs, telephones or railways has had to go before the commission and claim this redress. Not one of these public utilities will grant concessions to the public gratuitously.
The purely domestic business of the Canadian Pacific Railway telegraphs increased to from about $575,000 in 1906, to over $1,200,000 in 1910, or 110 per cent in four years. The estimates of last year's business is over $1,400,000, being an increase in five years of over 143 per cent on domestic business alone.


Louis-Philippe Pelletier: Is that net or gross?


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: Net. Surely the figures I have given are an argument in favour of government ownership. Now, it has been found by experience, particularly in large businesses, that the lowering of rates does not necessarily mean a loss of revenue. The Dominion postal rates were lowered in 1896 from 3 cents to 2 cents, and the increased volume of business resulting was sufficient to make up for the sacrifice on the sale of individual stamps. If the tolls of the telegraph companies were arbitrarily cut down by one third, it is safe to assume that the increased volume of business would more than compensate for the anticipated loss. There is no more wear and tear on the wire to send a message 10,000 miles than there is to send it 500 miles. Mr. Kent, the electrical expert of the Canadian Pacific Railway telegraphs, stated last week that a copper wire was practically indestructible and that an iron wire would last for 30 years. Two messages are generally sent over one wire and sometimes as many as four. They can send a telephone and a telegraph message over the same wire at the same time, and I understand that two telephone messages can be sent over the same wire at the same time. The telegraph, telephone and cable can use the same wire if necessary. The Canadian Pacific Railway has ten copper wires between Sudbury and North Bay and six copper wires between Fort William and Winnipeg. Running into Winnipeg from the west they have eleven copper wires and eighteen iron wires, and from the east and south, seven copper wires and eight iron wires. This gives some idea of the extent of the business in and out of the city of Winnipeg.
The western provinces depend largely upon their telegraph messages; for all are aware the telephones are owned and operated by the several provinces, and they are unable to further the messages east as we
should like to have them furthered. In Manitoba they have been compelled to buiid a copper wire for their provincial line U>
connect with Minneapolis and Chicago. From a national standpoint it is our duty to see to it that messages are sent to our provinces at the lowest possible cost, and in that way bind together the provinces of the Dominion.
The Canadian Pacific railway leases a through line from Montreal to Vancouver to^the British Cable Company Board for $65,000, a portion of which is paid by the Canadian government. The cost of copper wire of 210 lbs. to the mile, including labour of stringing and placing the wire in position is $44.25. The cable wire across the continent, 2,906 miles at $44.25 a mile would mean $128,590 for one line of wire. The Canadian Pacific Railway's submarine cables with three conductors cost nearly $2,000 per mile. This is the value placer on it by the Canadian Pacific railway. This, apparently, is the cable line between Vancouver island and the mainland, 67.58 miles, valued at $129,000. The property of the Canadian Pacific Railway Telegraph Company called the commercial end of their business, does not cost them very much to own and operate in addition to what they -would be compelled to pay to keep up the telegraph lines in order to run their railway. Hon. members will have observed advertisements in various magazines calling attention to the night letters which the telegraph companies offer to send at half price; I have in mind particularly an advertisement in the Saturday ' Evening Post ' of March 17, 1911, which cost the telegraph company over $700. They would not be likely to place that advertisement unless they expected a return from it. It all goes to show that these companies handle the business at a great reduction on their present rates. The Postal Telegraph Cable Company in the United States is the land side of the Commercial Cable Company. Both are included in what is known as the Mackays. The Canadian Pacific Railway Telegraph Company operates the Canadian end of the Majckay Company's telegraph and telephone lines. A telegraph pole can carry 48 wires easily. The average over all the Canadian Pacific Railway lines is only about six wires to a pole. The Canadian Pacific Railway telegraph lines make an average of 100 per cent on outlay each year; in other words, their operating expenses were less than 50 per cent of their income.
Now, I have no doubt that those who oppose the resolution will cite the condition of affairs in the old land. But when we consider the enormous amount of -water in the purchase of the telegraph and telephone lines there, we can hardly wonder that the system has not been placed on a paying basis as yet. But if you consider the

The conditions of affairs in Canada are such as could demand our immediate attention. When you find the province of Manitoba compelled to build a copper wire line from Winnipeg to the boundary line connecting there with the Northwestern Telephone Exchange Company, and forming a direct line through service from Minneapolis to Chicago in order to reach our eastern provinces surely it is time for us at least to investigate. In addition to this there are few farmers phones in the province of Manitoba, that cannot be connected with Winnipeg.
In 1910 no less than 1,481 miles of long distance telephones were added to the system. The number of subscribers in that year increased by 8,336, nearly half of which increase was in the rural districts among the farmers. Hon. gentlemen opposite may complain possibly of the position taken by the Manitoba government in order that they may compel those who are living in the cities and towns to pay a reasonable portion of the running expenses of the system, but it would be well for them jrossibly to look into the system that has recently been inaugurated. Why should the large industrial centres, such as Winnipeg, with their offices and stores that require a very greatly extended and expensive service for their accommodation, be given the same rates as those which are given to people living in the rural districts? I should say in justice to the provincial government of Manitoba that they are to be complimented on the manner in which they have extended the lines into the rural districts, because there is nothing which will help to enlighten and educate the people of the province more quickly than will the telephone line being extended as it is being extended in Manitoba. As the Manitoba government have already stated, within five years time practically every man living in the rural part of the province will be given telephonic connection with the city of Winnipeg. I am sure it will be a great satisfaction when that is done. In Portugal telephones are being taken over and worked by the government. There is a report which has recently come from Lyons, France, where exchangeless telephones have been given a trial. ~They have been able to show a remarkable increase in the number of messages that can be delivered within a given time, and a great saving in the number of persons employed in the various offices of the country as a result of the introduction of this system. The reduction in the number of officials in the offices has been so great that there has been very strong objection to the adoption of the system throughout France on that account. But, that is the only objection to it. There are 2,380,000 telephones in Europe including the figures for Russia in Asia, Mr. ARMSTRONG (E. Lambton).
and about 6,870,000 in the United States alone, without including Canada, and the whole of South America. ' The National Telephone Journal,' of London, England, has recently published some interesting statistics regarding telephone development in Europe, from which the following summary is taken:
-	No. of Telephones in use. Jan. 1, Jan. 1, 1908. 1909.	Popu- lation per Tele- phone.German Empire	[DOT] 768,260	851,319	71Great Britain and	Ireland	528,703	565,854	77France	178,518	194,159	202Sweden	150,948	156,000	34Austria-Hungary....	108,457	124,825	209Russia	97,043	113,000	1,322Switzerland	
. .	04,953	09,122	44Denmark	00,825	07,339	38Norway	49,398	[DOT] 53,726	43Italy	44,834	53,721	625Holland	43,449	48,134	117Belgium	34,818	38,503	188Spain 	18,545	19,500	9551i,500	5735,000	1,0853,000	822,039	1,970Servia	2^057	1,3061,733Iceland 	500	152Total	2,380,798	168
The Bell Telephone Company of Canada, operating in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, in a report issued within the last few months, state that they have in their own service a telephone per 27 of the population, or with their connecting companies, a telephone per 25 of the population. The Bell Telephone Company of Canada on the 24th February, 1910, presented their annual report in which it is stated that the number of instruments now earning rental was 114,000 and miles of ware 48,000. If their lines are only connected up with the. 320 independent companies yet unconnected in the province of Ontario, where we have 460 independent companies altogether, and with the 500 companies in the other provinces you can readily understand the position that these independent companies will be placed in. It has only been recently that the Bell Company would even connect up with the local companies in the municipalities. I need scarcely call the attention of the House to the struggles that have been made in many of the cities and towns in Ontario in order to obtain a reasonable amount of justice from the Bell Telephone

Company in the matter of connections. Not only that, but I can show you where the Bell Telephone Company make excessive charges against independent companies when they do connect with them. There is no doubt in my mind that every one of these independent companies will be willing to be placed in connection with the trunk lines of telephone in older that they may extend their service.
You can send a telegram of ten words anywhere in Holland for 10 cents and for each additional word six-tenths of a cent. A five-word despatch to Great Britain costs only 25 cents and one to the United States 40 cents and upwards per word. The telephone rates are equally low. Every city has a good service with the wires on street towers 100 feet high, so that they rise far above the houses.
Telephone connection between New York and Denver, a distance of 2,011 miles, without recourse to relay stations, was opened for commercial purposes on May 9, 1911. On this line three persons can talk to Chicago, and a fourth to Denver over two sets of wires and simultaneously eight separate telegraphic messages can be seDt over the same wires to Chicago and two others to Denver and all without any reference, through what is called ' The Loaded Phantom Circuit.' While Mayor Robert W. Sphere, of Denver, Mayor Carter Harrison, of Chicago, and Mayor James C. Dahlman, of Omaha, Nebraska, were having' a three-cornered conversation ten telegraphic messages were passing over the same wires. In order to obtain this the Telephone company had men climb every one of the 87,000 telephone poles between New York and Denver and change the 285,000 insulators from glass to porcelain.
I merely wish to call your attention to this fact to show the advance that has been made along the lines of improvement, in telephone matters within the last^ few years. It emphasizes the advisability of the appointment of a commission to go to foreign lands, investigate these different public utilities, and bring home information with regard to the latest and most improved systems in order that we may be in a position to establish the best possible telephone and telegraph system in our country. I called attention a few moments ago to the f#ct that wireless telegraphy in our country was a necessity and that it should be government owned, controlled and operated.
The more I have investigated the matter the more convinced I have become that the government of Canada should at once take over these wireless telegraph stations, and own, control and operate them. The agreement between the Marconi Company and the Dominion is as follows:
The company are permitted to construct stations and to install therein their systems of wireless telegraphy, and to build houses, furnish them for operators suitably for the requirements of the station, for the sum of $5,000 for each station.
As I have said they have spent from $10,000 to $20,000 on each station. The governments of Australia and New Zealand have decided to establish a system of wireless telegraphy which will be under their control and which will embrace the various routes to the British islands.	,
I feel that the time has come when Canada can no longer afford not to be the owner of a cable line or two cable lines between our shores and the motherland. As I have said, all the cables between the mother country and Canada to-day are owned, controlled and operated from New York. The cost of a cable to England would not exceed $5,000,000 and it will be seen that it would be an advantage to us as a nation to own and operate a cable ourselves and not be urging and begging and pleading with Great Britain t-o give a portion of the $5,000,000 towards the building of a cable. There is no question in my mind that it would be a profitable investment from the start, and that we could give a rate of one half the present cable rates. Such a cable would greatly strengthen the bonds be-t-ween Canada and the motherland. If the thousands of British immigrants who are going into our northwestern provinces, could be placed in cable communication with their friends at home, at a very cheap rate, it would tend to greatly cement the friendship between the people of our country and those at home. The advantage of direct and cheap cable communication between the grain merchants of Winnipeg and Liverpool are obvious. Such a cable would tend to bind together the provinces of Canada and the empire as a whole.
To show the probable effect of such a cable system I wish to place before the House the history of postal rates between Canada and Great Britain. When the Canadian government took over the post office in 1851 the charge on letters passing between Canada and Great Britain was one shilling per half ounce. In 1868 a reduction of 50 per cent was made and the rate became sixpence per half ounce. Two years later a further cut of 50 per cent was made and the rate became threepence or six cents per half ounce. In 1875 there was a slight reduction from 6 to 5 cents per half ounce. That rate remained in force until 1898 when the Canadian government obtained the inter-Imperial Postage Commission and on Christmas day of'that year the imperial postal rates came into operation. In 1907 the rate was still further re-


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: I wish to take up a little time oi the House with reference to parcel post because I think the easy exchange of commodities and merchandise between the producer and consumer is far from being perfect in Canada. Comparing our progress in this regard by that made by such countries as England, France, Germany, and other lands makes us appear away behind the times as compared with them. The Canadian in Europe can send home to any part in Canada a parcel weighing two and a half times more than the Canadian limit, and for about one-third less in cost than the home rates. In other words, the world's parcel union package unit is eleven pounds to the parcel, carried at the rate of twelve cents per pound, whereas the Canadian unit is five pounds to the package and carried at a cost of sixteen cents per pound. The citizens of Canada are entitled to utilize the advantages of their post-office system, the same as the men engaged in other lines of business. The question is frequently asked: What is parcel post? It is merely the extending of the weight of the package now carried in Canada to a considerable extent in order to meet with the public demands. In Germany many farmers deliver special products by post, such as chicken, butter, eggs and like products. Germany makes money out of parcel post. Canada does the unprofitable end of the parcel carrying business, and watches the express companies do the profitable end. Last year over 225,000,000 parcels were carried by the post office department in Germany of an average weight of eight pounds. If we had to build our post offices out of the revenue of the Post Office Department as they do in England, and many other countries, we would devise some way to do at least part of the express business of the country.
The proposition I have to offer would only advise what might be called The Limited Parcels Post, confined exclusively to rural districts and delivered on rural mail routes only. Such parcels must have their origin on or at the start of a rural mail route. Why should express companies be given a monopoly on the profitable parcel carrying trade while the postal department contents itself with the least profitable? Why should the government give foreign, four-pound parcels a rate of 60 cents, while we must pay 80 cents regardless of distance? Why is a package carried at any rate up to eleven pounds in our mails, if mailed in a foreign country, when we can but mail five pounds and even then pay 331 per cent more? The express companies pay one and two hundred per cent profit, while we are doing the unprofitable end. It is
claimed that the great mail order or catalogue houses are behind the parcel post in order that they may flood the country with their goods to the injury of the small retailers.
The parcels post system in England has not tended to create catalogue houses, nor has it in Germany or other countries tended to prosper great departmental stores. It has done three things and done them effectively. It has eliminated costly and extravagant express monopoly, and has greatly accommodated the general public consumer, retailer and wholesaler. Absence of a parcel post enables the railway companies through companies called express companies, to eliminate and prevent all regulation in one branch oi our transportation, and in the meantime the government has not extended to us the low rates, and the liberal conditions of such a service between our own towns and amongst themselves. It turns over to foreign countries the facilities of our expensive postal department and furnishes the service to foreign citizens at the low rates which are denied us. Great Britain has a most serviceable parcels post. Also Australia and New Zealand have had for years a thoroughly modern colonial, intercolonial and foreign parcels post, these advantages have been enjoyed by the people of the colony even to the most remote districts through which the mail service penetrates. In all of the many publications from Australia and New Zealand, or by the officials of these colonies I have not been able to find a sentence to the effect that the local merchants of these colonies have been in the least injured by their business by catalogue houses. In fact as the catalogue houses are unknown in those countries, they have a modern parcels post, it would appear that instead of the modern parcels favouring catalogue houses the very opposite is the case. American dealers have found that they can ship light weight packages of shoes to Mexico much cheaper by parcels post than by freight. For an ordinary package weighing fifteen pounds in Germany the charge for sixty-two miles is sixteen and two-thirds cents. Germany has been handling parcels post for many years. In France they have a splendid system of parcels post; plants and shrubs, live creatures, boxes of cigars, oysters, cotton, oil paper, and an endless number of things are carried. Great Britain gives the railways fifty-five per cent of the gross receipts from such parcels as are railway borne. This of course excluding the great number received and delivered in the same city. The railways are paid over five million dollars per annum from this source. The balance goes to the Post Office Department.

Great Britain and Ireland handled last year 113,230,000 parcels. This being double the number of fifteen years ago and about two and one-half for each of the total population. The average postage was a trifle under ten cents. Parcel rates within the United Kingdom are three-tenths or six cents for not over one pound. Eight cents for not over two pounds. Ten cents for not over 3 pounds and so on up to 21 cents for eleven pounds. The regulations in Canada as to parcels are apparently designed to prevent their carriage by post. Here parcels cost 11 cents per pound and the limit of weight is five pounds, although absurdly enough to contrast between some two dozen countries and our own. The rate is only twelve cents per pound and the limit is eleven pounds. The five pound package in Canada at the high charge of sixteen cents per pound makes a charge of eighty cents for a package that would be carried in England for twelve cents, and our own package would go to England for 60 cents. Further the many limitations as to the kind of things accepted makes it no wonder that the average weight of packages here is only one-third of a pound.
That a rural parcel post would be of material advantage to the retail merchant in competition with mail order houses is seen at once when it is pointed out that the latter, at the proposed general parcel post rate of 12 cents a pound would be obliged to pay $1.32 for sending an 11 pound package to a rural route patron, a difference in favour of the local storekeeper of about 10 cents a pound, or $1.07 on an 11 pound package.
The parcel post rates in England are as follows:
1	lb.
2	((
3	
4	((
5	
6	tt
7	it
8	U
9	<(
10	tc
11	(t
3d.
4d.
5d.
6d.
7d.
8d.
9d.
lOd.
lid.
Those who claim that an increase in the weight limit would work an injury to country merchants appear to have the impression that mail order business houses now deliver their goods extensively through the postal service, and that this practice would largely increase if the recommendations which have been made become law. Upon a moment's reflection it would be perceived that the present rate of 16 cents a pound ($16 per hundredweight) as well as the; proposed rate of 12 cents a pound ($12 per hundredweight), are alike prohibitive on practically all lines of merchandise.


Joseph Elijah Armstrong: 
Rodolphe Lemieux: I understand many members of the House would like to speak on this question and, as I am afraid if the hon. gentleman speaks until six o'clock, tihe question will be automatically out of tlhe order paper. Therefore I would ask the hon. member to move the 'adjournment


Robert Laird Borden: If the adjournment is not moved it occupies a higher place than ii the adjournment is moved. If the adjournment is not moved it goes at the head of Private Bills and Orders, whereas if the adjournment is moved it goes to the foot, therefore I think it would be better not to move the adjournment.
Air. ARA1STRONG (Lambton). I am sorry to have been compelled to take up so much time. I have given a great deal of time and pains to the gathering of this material, and hope it will be of some benefit to the people of Canada. The rates of parcel post in a number of European and other countries are as follows:
-	Afaximum AVeight of Parcels.	Minimum Charge for a Parcel.	Charge for 11 Pounds.Australia	11	12	[DOT]72Austria	110	[DOT]06	12Belgium	
..	132	10	16Chili 	11	10	17Cuba	11	10	*46France	22	[DOT]12	16Germany	110	[DOT]or,	13Great Britain	11	[DOT]oo	*22Italy	11	03	*20Switzerland	110	06	08The Netherlands..	11	06	10United States	4	01	1 32Canada 	
The international business has grown to enormous proportions. The figures collected at Berne for 1904, in connection with the postal union, show that the parcels mailed across the frontiers of 36 nations and colonies that year numbered something like 38,000,000. The parcels received by post by the United States during the fiscal year of 1906 from abroad were recorded as 131,064, of an average weight of 2-73 pounds. Sufficient figures have been given to indicate what a great factor parcels post has become in the trade of the world. The value of the merchandise thus transported can only be roughly estimated but it will probably exceed $500,000,000
annually. This business is transacted across frontiers, causing little or no friction with customs officers. Boxes with declared values are subject to legislation of the country of origin or destination, as regards payment of stamp duties on articles exported, and as regards the control of stamp and customs duties on articles imported. The stamp duties and charges for examination by customs officers involved in the importation are collected from the addresses when the articles are delivered.
To illustrate the inconsistency in connection with our present parcels post system, an individual entering any post-office in our country with two parcels weighing five pounds each will be obliged to pay 80 cents, on the one to Montreal, for example, but for the one destined for a foreign country	although	it usually	passes
through Montreal, the charge is 60 cents. Should the weight be five pounds six ounces a package addressed to the resident in Montreal will be denied admission to the mails by the postmaster, while the package intended for a resident in a foreign land will be accepted and forwarded, probably via Montreal, at the rate of 12 cents per pound. Parcels for foreign countries will be received in most instances up to eleven pounds.
A rural parcels post would do more to overcome our present way of centralizing our population than any other one thing. Is would serve to stimulate trade between the farmer and the country merchant and be a blessing to the consumer. The legislation I would propose for rural parcels post may be summarized as follows:-
The Postmaster General, under suoli regulations as he may prescribe, may authorize postmasters and carriers on such rural lines as he shall select to accept for delivery by carnier on the route, or on any other route starting at the post office, branch post office or station, which is the distributing point for that route, or for delivery through any post office branch, branch post office or station on any of the said routes, at such rates of book rate as he shall determine, packages not exceeding eleven pounds in weight, containing no mail matter of the first class, and no matter that is declared by law.
There is much misconception on the subject of parcels post. In China a parcels post system is carried on with all the European countries. Postal rates on parcels post sent from the United Kingdom to Germany are considerably higher than rates for parcels sent from Germany to the United Kingdom. The Russian Consul in the tenth consular district of Warsaw, reports that British manufacturers are handicapped owing to the difference in parcels post rates between the United Kingdom and Russia and Germany and Russia. Those rates are as follows:

From United Kingdom	to Poland	 5.0
3 lb. parcel	 2.0
7	"	
2.611	"	
3.0From Germany	to	Poland	
3.D.3 lb. parcel	
1.57	"	
1.511	"	
1.5
Germany is able to increase her trade.
The 'Swiss government now owns the majority of the railway mileage of the country, regulates and controls the traffic rates on all the railways, manufactures all equipment except rails, for all the railways, and owns and operates the telegraph and telephone systems, for which it manufactures all the equipment thereby securing a uniformity of instruments and apparatus. There is a free delivery mail; including rural districts, a parcel post by which anything from a spool of thread to a locomotive may be forwarded; and a post office banking system designated as post check.


ADJOURNMENT-BUSTNESS OF THE HOUSE.
Wilfrid Laurier: What business will be taken up to-morrow?


Robert Laird Borden: I think the Minister of Trade and Commerce will go on with the Grain Bill. If he does not, I presume we shall go on with the Tariff Commission Bill, if it is ready.
At six o'clock, the House adjourned.

Thursday, February 1, 1912.