Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce certain ministerial changes, and the appointment of additional parliamentary assistants.
I regret exceedingly to have to inform the house that, due to protracted illness, the Honourable J. Allison Glen has felt it necessary to tender his resignation as Minister of Mines and Resources, and that in existing circumstances I have felt it my duty to submit Mr. Glen's resignation to His Excellency the Governor General, and to advise its acceptance.
I cannot say how deeply I regret the severance of official relations with so highly valued a colleague in the government, and so old and loyal a friend. What I would most wish to say at this time is set forth in the correspondence which has passed between Mr. Glen and mj'self. It would, I believe, best explain the situation were I to read the correspondence to the house.
The day before yesterday I received by Canadian National Telegraphs the following telegram, dated at Winnipeg, Manitoba, June 9, 1948, at 8.27 p.m.:
The Right Honourable William Lyon Mackenzie King,
Prime Minister of 'Canada,
Ottawa, Ontario.
I have been informed today by my medical adviser that my illness may be protracted for an indeterminate period. I feel therefore that matters of urgent importance in my department requiring early consideration and decision may suffer by my continued absence, and I have consequently decided to submit my resignation as minister, to be acted upon in your discretion, which I herewith do.
May I add that it is with the deepest regret that I feel constrained to take this course, which severs the very happy ministerial association which it has been my privilege to enjoy with you and my colleagues in the cabinet, an association which I shall always gratefully cherish.
J. Allison Glen.
To that telegram I replied yesterday, June 10, 1948, as follows:
The Honourable James Allison Glen, M.P.,
541 Cambridge Street,
Winnipeg, Manitoba.
My dear Glen:
I have just received your telegram of yesterday. I am indeed deeply sorry lto learn that your strength has not returned as rapidly as we all hoped it might. If, as you say, there is a possibility of your illness being protracted, I think you are right in seeking to relieve yourself of the responsibilities of administering the affairs of the Department of Mines and Resources and giving yourself as much in the way of rest and freedom as possible. This should greatly assist you in expediting your recovery. In the circumstances, I have decided to submit your resignation to His Excellency forthwith and to advise its acceptance.
I need not assure you that it is with a regret equal to your own that, for the reasons mentioned in your telegTam, I feel it my duty to recommend the acceptance of your resignation. Before, however, making any recommendation to His Excellency, I should like to thank you warmly for the splendid service you have Tendered Canada as a minister of the crown, and for all that your helpful counsel and close cooperation has meant to our colleagues, and to myself in particular, in the work of the administration.
My deep regret at the severance of these happy and helpful relations will be shared, I know, in full measure by all our colleagues. Fortunately, your retirement from the ministry will not mean the loss of the association which, as members of parliament, we have enjoyed over so many years, and to the continuance of which, through the opportunity afforded you of rest and freedom from ministerial responsibilities, will, I trust, be assured for some time still to come.
With warmest personal regards to Mrs. Glen and yourself,
Believe me, as always, dear Glen,
Yours very sincerely,
W. L. Mackenzie King
I am sure hon. members generally will deeply regret, with my colleagues and myself, the Honourable Mr. Glen's retirement from the ministry, and especially the reason for it; we will all wish in deepest sincerity that his health may speedily be restored, and that we may see him again in parliament at the beginning of another session.
I wish now to announce the resignation of the Honourable James A. MacKinnon as Minister of Fisheries, and Mr. MacKinnon's
Changes in the Ministry

appointment as Minister of Mines and Resources, the department over which Mr. Glen presided and of which Mr. MacKinnon, during a portion of Mr. Glen's absence, has been the acting minister.
I have great pleasure also in announcing the appointment of Mr. Robert W. Mayhew as a member of the Privy Council of Canada, and as Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Mayhew will be British Columbia's representative in the cabinet.
I wish to announce the transfer of Mr. Robert H. Winters of Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, from the position of Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of National Revenue to that of Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Transport.
I announce further the transfer of Mr. Thomas Reid of New Westminster, British Columbia from the office of Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries to that of Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of National Revenue.
It will be recognized at once that it would not be advisable that the parliamentary assistant in the Department of Fisheries should be from the same province as the minister of that department. The transfer of Mr. Reid from the Department of Fisheries to the Department of National Revenue will fortunately leave an opening for the appointment of a parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Fisheries from another province which, up to the present time, has not had representation in the house by way of a parliamentary assistant.


Mr. GRAYDON:: The Scotch and the Irish will collect the taxes from now on.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I wish also to express my pleasure in announcing the appointment of Mr. Leslie A. Mutch, of Winnipeg, Manitoba as Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. The house will recall that a short time ago a vacancy was created in that position through the resignation of Mr. Walter Tucker, who had formerly occupied that position.
Finally, I have much pleasure in announcing the appointment of Mr. J. Watson MacNaught, of Summerside, Prince Edward Island, as Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries.
While it is not necessary to table the orders in council respecting these several appointments, I think it might be advisable to do so, and I therefore table the orders respecting the ministers and parliamentary assistants.


Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: I had a question for the Prime Minister this

morning in regard to representation in the cabinet for British Columbia, and I am glad that I have not had an opportunity to ask him. I wish to be the first to congratulate the hon. member for Victoria, B.C., (Mr. Mayhew) upon his appointment to the cabinet.


Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: Mr. Speaker, I certainly speak for all members associated with me in our party in expressing regret that Mr. Glen has felt it necessary to resign, and to say a word of appreciation of his services, both as Speaker and as minister of the crown. Naturally one congratulates the others.



REPORTS OF COMMITTEES

[Stage Direction]
First report of the joint committee of both houses on the library of parliament.-Mr. Speaker.
Second and third reports of the special committee on the Dominion Elections Act, 1938. -Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce).


Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege, may I say that in a return tabled on February 23, 1948, in answer to a question of mine, information regarding the payment of moneys under the war emergency training program was given in full by the Department of Labour. In a return, sessional paper 186B, May 17, similar full replies were given by the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Fisheries. But a letter contained in the return from the deputy minister of trade and commerce withholds the same type of information on the ground that "it is not considered to be in the public interest to give information as to subsidies paid to individual concerns."
Evident]}', in view of the other information in this return and the return of February 23, this statement of the deputy minister is not correct, and in my opinion is an interference with the privileges and rights of the members of parliament, who should be able to secure details of the expenditure of public moneys appropriated by or under the control of parliament.
I therefore request that the Secretary of State table the information asked for under the order of this house of February 25 moved by the member for Maple Creek (Mr. McCuaig).

Proposed Legislation



COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE


Hon. LIONEL CHEVRIER (Minister of Transport) moved:: That the name of Mr. Gillis be substituted for that of Mr. Argue on the standing committee on banking and commerce.
That the name of Mr. Irvine be substituted for that of Mr. Zaplitny on the special committee on prices.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Hon. COLIN GIBSON (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, in accordance with an undertaking given last night to the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) during consideration of my estimates, I wish to table two copies of order in council P.C. 1810 of July 18, 1947, and two copies of order in council P.C. 3737 of September 17, 1947, with regard to Japanese property.



GOVERNMENT ANNUITIES ACT


[Stage Direction]
Mr. PAUL E. COTE (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Labour) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 343, to amend the Government Annuities Act.
Mr. KNOWLES:: Explain.


Mr. COTE (Verdun) :: The chief purposes of the bill are to provide greater flexibility in the provisions of the Government Annuities Act relating to the issue, conversion and amendment of annuity contracts and payments thereunder, and to clarify provisions of the act which have given rise to legal or technical difficulties in the administration thereof.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. ALPHONSE FOURNIER (Minister of Public Works, for the Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution.
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to authorize the Canadian National Railway company to issue securities not exceeding $85,882,-
200 in principal amount to provide the moneys necessary to meet capital expenditures made or capital indebtedness incurred during the calendar year 1948; to authorize the governor in council to guarantee the principal, and interest of securities issued by the company for the purpose aforesaid; to authorize the making of temporary loans to the said company secured by such securities and not exceeding $85,882,200 in principal amount to enable the said company to meet such expenditures and indebtedness; with authority to give financial aid and assistance to other companies of the said national system and to authorize the Minister of Finance to place at the disposal of the national company or the Trans-Canada Air Lines, such amounts as may be necessary to enable them to pay operating and income charges if at any time in any year the available revenues of the national railway system or the TransUanada Air Lines and subsidiaries, respectively, are not sufficient to pay such charges:	Provided that all such
amounts shall be reimbursed to the Minister from the recipients' annual revenues in so far as such revenues are sufficient, any insufficiency to be provided for by subsequent deficit appropriation by parliament.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day.
Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance or his parliamentary assistant. I find great difficulty in rearranging my thoughts with respect to the various changes that have just been announced; therefore if I direct my question to the wrong member, perhaps I may be excused at this stage.


Mr. GRANT:: A lot of changes, the same as in Toronto.


Gordon Graydon: I notice you were not included, so perhaps I may proceed.
May I offer a word of congratulation to the new Minister of Fisheries and express the hope that this time there will be some permanency-at least until the next general election-in his appointment. I have always felt a little sorry for the finny tribes of Canada, in that they never get a chance now to know the minister who is supervising their activities. I sincerely congratulate the minister as a very popular member of this house.
I should also like to express on behalf of our party our deep regret that, on account of
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Inquiries of the Ministry

ill health, Hon. J. A. Glen has found it necessary to sever his connection with the cabinet. We shall all recall his excellent work as Speaker of this house, and his courtesy and efficiency in administering the Department of Mines and Resources, of which he has had charge for the last few years. All of us I am sure wish for him a speedy and permanent recovery from what we hope is just a temporary ailment.
When I have had an opportunity, as the Prime Minister often says, of studying the other changes, and finding out who are the parliamentary assistants to whom, I shall have a word of congratulation for them; because they are all very good friends of ours.
I would ask the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance whether consideration is being given to making it easier for veterans to get possession of the houses they have purchased from those now occupying them as tenants. I understand that the government has had the matter under consideration, and I should like to know what progress has been made, and whether any announcement will be made before the end of the session.


Mr. BELZILE (rising):: 


Mr. R. W. MAYHEW (Victoria, B.C.):: Mr. Speaker, probably on this occasion the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance will allow me. I want to thank the Prime Minister for the honour he has conferred upon me and upon my constituency. I hope that I shall be able to do justice to the department to which I have been appointed as minister. I also want to thank the members of the house for their very kind reception of the announcement, and I hope I shall be able to retain their good will.
I think the question asked by the 'hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon) should be directed to the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply, because it has to do with a matter which is entirely in the hands of that department.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, I was hoping I would not have an answer like that, because surely, after all these changes and additions, more work is not to be given to the minister of reconstruction. I had in mind a matter which comes under the rental control branch of the wartime prices and trade board, not the department of reconstruction.


Robert Wellington Mayhew: I do not think it comes under our department, but I will look into it, and I am sure the parliamentary assistant will give my hon. friend an answer later.
[Jlr. Graydon.]


Gordon Graydon: May I ask the Prime Minister if he will take the matter up tomorrow with the cabinet and find out who is responsible?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am sorry, but I shall be in Toronto tomorrow for a very important engagement.


Gordon Graydon: I said Monday.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If my hon. friend will look at Hansard he will see he said "tomorrow".



MAPLE HILLS, CHARLOTTETOWN, P.E.I.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. CHESTER S. MeLURE (Queens): I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply. Is the minister prepared to make a statement with reference to Maple Hills housing problem, Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island?
Right Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Reconstruction and Supply):: There has been some correspondence on the matter between the federal government and the provincial government. It is not fresh in my mind, but I shall be glad to review the correspondence and make a statement later.



FEED SHORTAGE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr.  M. J. COLD WELL@Rosetown-Biggar: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Agriculture may I direct a question to the government? In view of the serious feed shortage in the neighbourhood of Wainwright, Alberta, will the Department of Agriculture reconsider its decision to reserve four sections of good hay land on the Cattalo reserve, and issue permits for local cattle men to obtain much needed hay?


Hon. ALPHONSE FOURNIER (Acting Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Agriculture I have been asked to make the following reply: The matter of reserving hay lands at Wainwright, Alberta, will be reviewed by the Department of Agriculture.



HEALTH AND WELFARE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask the Minister of National Health and Welfare whether he can

Inquiries of the Ministry
now give an answer to my question of two days ago in regard to the Princess Elizabeth Hospital in Winnipeg?


Hon. PAUL MARTIN (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, I thought I had explained the situation to the hon. gentleman privately, but since he has asked the question, may I say that my parliamentary assistant, who is also a member for Winnipeg, had spoken to me about the matter several days before the hon. member raised the question in the house.


Stanley Howard Knowles: But the minister did not even know about it when I questioned him in the house the other day.


Paul Joseph James Martin: What the hon. gentleman should have said is that when he put his question the minister did not recall the particular incident. The question raised by the hon. member is one that I think can properly be discussed on the supplementary estimates in connection with the new health program, when I shall deal with that and similar questions.



FLOOD CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. BONA ARSENAULT (Bonaventure):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. I am well aware of the rule of the house that questions have to be brief and to the point, but in this particular instance my question is in connection with a disaster which has just occurred in my constituency, and I beg the indulgence of the house.
I have just returned from an inspection tour of the flooded areas of Bonaventure county, where I have conferred with several local delegations. The population of Bonaventure county living in the valleys of Nouvelle West river, Cascapedia river and Bonaventure river, as well as other districts, have been severely flood-stricken and have suffered loss and damages to the extent of over one million dollars.
For one full week, all communication by train and by highway was cut off between Bonaventure county, on the south shore of the Gaspe coast, and the rest of the province, on account of railway and highway bridges having been washed out.
At Nouvelle West there is a large area of cultivated land still lying under water, owing
to the fact that the Nouvelle river went out of its original channel to form three new channels to the sea.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Bona Arsenault: What would the Minister of Public Works be prepared to do in order to help and relieve the flood-stricken population in Bonaventure county?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. May I remind hon. members that I have been very generous in the last two weeks to hon. members who have asked questions concerning flood conditions in their constituencies. Hon. members should be fair to the hon. member who is asking the question.


Bona Arsenault: Alongside the Cascapedia river, in the Barry Mountain district, a road which is essential to lumber operations has been washed out for a distance of about thirty miles. It is estimated that 50,000 cords of pulpwood have been driven to the sea by the flood. My question is: what would the Minister of Public Works be prepared to do in order to help and relieve the flood-stricken population of Bonaventure county?


Alphonse Fournier: I believe I shall have to give the hon. member the answer I have given to other hon. members who brought their cases to my attention. Flood conditions generally do not come under the control of the federal government. We may take up the instance of a national disaster such as has occurred in British Columbia, but not ordinary flood conditions. Where navigation is unimpeded, we have no jurisdiction. That comes under provincial jurisdiction. If I understood the hon. member correctly, he said that a road has been covered by water. Roads come under the provincial government. I believe the provincial government has the responsibility of maintaining the roads or protecting them from damage.


Bona Arsenault: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. My question is in connection with the floods and washouts experienced in the Nouvelle West district, Bonaventure county, when the Nouvelle river flooded a large area of farming land north of the Canadian National Railways line, and then washed out three new channels to the sea. Will the Minister of Transport give consideration to securing the assistance of the Canadian National Railways in order to take up with the federal government, the Quebec provincial government, as well as the Quebec drainage commission the question of having the Nouvelle
5082

Supply-Trade and Commerce
river in Bonaventure county returned to its original channel, known locally as the Mercier channel? A return of the river to its former channel, however, will not entirely handle the spring freshets in that district, and the Canadian National Railways should leave sufficient openings at their bridges to drive piling at mileage 32-8 and 33, in order to allow the excess of water to pass through without causing washouts in the future.


Lionel Chevrier: I shall be glad to ask the officials of the Canadian National Railways to ascertain what the position is, and I shall give my hon. friend the reply as quickly as I can.



OLEOMARGARINE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Justice):: Yesterday the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) asked whether the government would give consideration to referring to the Supreme Court of Canada the question of the constitutionality of the provision of the Dairy Industry Act prohibiting the sale and manufacture of oleomargarine. Later in the day a resolution was passed in another place expressing the opinion that such a reference should be made. Under the circumstances the government will give consideration to the question.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND COMMERCE

[Stage Direction]
440. Departmental administration, $272,600.
The CHAIRMAN:: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, may I make a statement? A request was made that we do not proceed with this item at this time. If it is the wish of the committee I am willing to let the item stand and go on with item 441, foreign trade services.


Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: I shall be grateful if the minister will follow that procedure.


William Ross Macdonald: Item 440 stands. I should remind the committee that when I call the items we shall have to discuss the matters which are strictly relevant to the vote under consideration.
Item stands.

Foreign trade services-
441- Commercial relations and foreign tariffs division, including contribution of $2,800 to international customs tariffs bureau, $102,513.


Mr. ISNOR:: This item deals with commercial relations and foreign tariffs division. I think this is the item on which I should like to make a few remarks because of statements made by certain hon. members of the opposition about the Department of Trade and Commerce, and particularly about the trade commissioners.
As a member of the banking and commerce committee, it has been my privilege to listen to witnesses appearing before that committee to explain the Geneva trade agreements and other matters regarding trade. As a businessman I wish to pay tribute to the excellent work being carried on by this department. When I say that I believe I am expressing the views of a great many people in Canada. It is not my habit to pay compliments to officials but I realize that we have efficient men carrying on in all the departments, and I think they are outstanding in the Department of Trade and Commerce. In view of the favourable remarks made by the Halifax board of trade when a group of representatives from the Department of Trade and Commerce visited that city, I felt I should say what I have just said. We are fortunate in having so many efficient men in this department.
I am particularly interested in the export and import officials who appeared before the banking and commerce committee of last year. They explained in detail their work and the manner in which they were bringing more business to our country.
I wish also to make a brief reference to the publication entitled "Foreign Trade" which is put out by the department. It is a valuable publication, and is of real help to those interested in the development of our import and export trade. I compliment those who are responsible for it. I have before me a letter from a bank manager in Nova Scotia commenting on the valuable and useful information that he and others derive from its pages.
May I call the attention of the minister to the international wheat agreement and to ask certain questions about it. I take it for granted that it has some connection with the Department of Trade and Commerce.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Ratification of the international wheat agreement is the subject matter of a notice of motion which appears on the order paper. I submit that it is hardly in order for the hon. member to discuss it now.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Then I approach the matter in another way, in an effort to get this ques-

Supply-Trade and Commerce
tion cleared up. I have in mind the method of approach adopted by the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario. When he cannot get his answer by one means he tries another. I do not wish to enter by the back door, but I feel that this is a question in which we are all interested, and perhaps certain clauses might be considered for the very reason the minister has mentioned, that is to say, that the agreement has not yet been fully approved.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, I ask for your [DOT]ruling. Is it in order to discuss that subject now, in view of the fact that it is on the order paper?


William Ross Macdonald: The following resolution appears on the order paper under government notices of motion :
Resolved, that it is expedient that parliament do approve the international wheat agreement opened for signature at Washington on March 6, 1948, and that this house do approve the same.
In view of that notice of motion, I must rule that it is not in order to discuss the matter under the item now before the committee.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I shall be pleased to abide by your ruling, Mr. Chairman, I hope to discuss the matter on a later occasion, but I would ask the minister to be good enough, in connection with all agreements into which Canada enters, to give consideration to the shipment of goods through Canadian ports. That should be definitely written' into every agreement made by the Department of Trade and Commerce; otherwise I do not know how we shall get the business that rightly belongs to us. If someone is selling or buying goods, it is his privilege to indicate to the buyer or the seller, as the case may be, whether 'he wishes the goods shipped by freight, express, water, or rail, and whether they should be Shipped via Canadian National or Canadian Pacific, to suit his convenience. I suggest that this principle should obtain in all agreements made by the Department of Trade and Commerce. There is no reason why a clause could not be written into such agreements to ensure that we shall enjoy the business that can be derived from the shipment of goods through Canadian ports. I have particularly in mind the situation that arose last year, and that is why I was going to ask the minister some questions in that regard. I am thinking of the statement made by the food minister in the British House of Commons last year, that, owing to the fact that the St. Lawrence had frozen, the British government were unable to ship through eastern Canadian ports in the winter months and were obliged to ship through Canadian Pacific coast ports and United States railways and ports. I think the minister should safeguard our inter-5849-322J
ests so that in future we shall not be faced with a foolish situation such as arose at that time. Perhaps be will be good enough to indicate whether such a clause as I suggest could be written into all agreements.


Mr. GILLIS:: I wish to get some information, and at the same time to support the senior member for Halifax in what he has said in regard to the Department of Trade and Commerce regulating shipments of goods and materials they may be sending from Canada to foreign markets. I suggest that as far as possible there should be a balance in goods shipped as between port and port 'in Canada. The member for Halifax has a legitimate grievance as to the way in which that port has been used since the end of the war. During the war it was a very important port,-


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: And still is.


Clarence Gillis: -which was cluttered up with ships from all parts of the world, and the city took a terrific beating in its efforts to accommodate war personnel and provide refuge, rations and so forth for ships from various ports. In other words, in time of war it was a handy port; since then it has been completely forgotten. Not so long ago I was in that city and I saw people cutting grass off the plot in front of the little railroad in connection with one of the piers.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Wherever you have a railroad hauling wheat you will find something growing beside it.


Clarence Gillis: I am talking about the way the port has been neglected, and I think the increase in freight rates has aggravated that condition.


William Ross Macdonald: Order.


Clarence Gillis: I am discussing foreign trade, which is the item before us.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps I could Shorten the discussion by saying that increases in freight rates do not apply to the export of wheat.


Clarence Gillis: I am not talking about wheat at all. I am not mentioning wheat. I am referring to imports which normally would be unloaded at Halifax and shipped by rail. Ships that were partly unloaded when the new rates went into effect were taken to United States ports and came up the lakes or went to Montreal, and the result was that the eastern end of the Canadian National lost money. In my opinion it will continue to lose money as a result of that increased rate.


Mr. DICKEY:: Can the hon. member give the details of any particular instance? I should be interested to hear them.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Clarence Gillis: I have already done that in the house by questioning the minister on the strength of telegrams received from Halifax during this session. The minister already has the details of at least two ships that were affected in that way. I have not the information at my fingertips; it is in my room.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: My colleague went fully into that.


Clarence Gillis: I do not know anything about what the hon. gentlemen's colleague has done. If he knows the answers, he should not be asking me questions.


John Horace Dickey: Read Hansard and you will see the answers.


Clarence Gillis: I have already had the answers from the minister, and am not satisfied with the deal which the port of Halifax is getting.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: We are glad of your support.


Clarence Gillis: I do not think the senior member for Halifax is satisfied either, but I am doubtful about the junior member for that city. I am merely adding whatever weight I can to the representations of the senior member for Halifax. There is rank discrimination against that port. However, what I did get up to say was this. The department keeps elaborate statistics and turns out good information on our imports and exports. Are there any statistics in the Department of Trade and Commerce with regard to our internal trade as between province and province?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Clarence Gillis: Perhaps there is a reason why such statistics are not kept, but I am seriously suggesting that they should be. If it is necessary for a person to ship goods from the maritimes to Vancouver, he is in the same position as if he were competing in world markets; or he may even be in a worse position. A large volume of trade flows between province and province. Different conditions exist as between province and province, and there are differences in the cost of production. The cost of marketing in the central provinces goods produced in the others is so great that it is time the government began to keep statistics with a view to achieving some kind of trade balance between one end of the country and the other.
What I see growing up in Canada is not the united nation we talk about. Greater division is setting in all the time, arising out of economic inequalities. If we are to build Canada into a nation, we must at least begin to recognize the right of every section of the country to an equal share in what we are

producing, and, as nearly as possible, to equality in income. If we do not recognize that right, before very long British Columbia and the prairie provinces will be trying to go off in one direction in order to look after themselves and the maritimes will be forced to do likewise. It has been made clear that there is no thinking in this country east of Montreal.


Mr. FULTON:: And none west of Fort William.


Clarence Gillis: And none west of Fort William, as the hon. member says. I am sure of what I am saying about east of Montreal. No matter what comes up, it ends at Montreal. The rest of the country to the east is just held there for taxation purposes and as a base from which to operate in case of war- or that is what it looks like to me. I am not blaming the present minister. I have often felt sorry for him, because he has been chucked into every difficult problem the government has had to handle. But his shoulders are broad and I believe he is fair. If he were permitted to do as he would like to do, the situation might be different. I am asking him if it is possible, starting from now, to keep statistics as to the flow of trade between province and province. If we were getting a little booklet monthly on this subject, as we are on foreign trade, it would be a great education to hon. members and to the public generally to see just how unequal that balance of trade is as between province and province. I sometimes think we are whistling in the dark in order to keep up our courage when we talk about the united nations, government at the world level, and freedom of trade between country and country, when right here in Canada we do not have that and are not trying to get it. A good start would be the compilation of such statistics as I have mentioned.


Clarence Decatur Howe: To answer the question asked by the senior member for Halifax, may I say that the Department of Trade and Commerce has an active transportation commissioner whose duty it is to see that trade is directed through Canadian ports to the greatest possible extent. The department is neither the buyer nor the seller. In ordinary commerce the buyer dictates the route by which goods will travel to market. If the traffic statistics of the port of Halifax in pre-war days are compared with those of today, I think the hon. member will find that great strides have been made in the movement of Canadian products to that port.
To reply to the hon. member for Cape Breton South, I can think of no good purpose

Supply-Trade and Commerce
that would be served by considering the movement of trade over provincial boundaries. Trade is a national affair, and every effort should be made by all governments to see that no interprovincial boundaries are set up. On occasions in the past, artificial restrictions have been attempted with regard to trade crossing a provincial boundary. They have always been resisted by the federal government, and I think that is the proper course.
I believe we must regard trade in Canada as national in character rather than provincial.


Clarence Gillis: I did not suggest any tariff arrangement between province and province.
I merely suggested the compilation of statistics so that we could get a look at the flow of trade between province and province-for example, on a dollar basis, the amount of goods shipped from the maritimes to Ontario and Quebec. What is coming out of those provinces?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Coal and steel.


Clarence Gillis: On a dollar basis we get back perhaps ten cents for every dollar they take in.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. You are exporting from the maritime provinces far more than you import.


Clarence Gillis: We do?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Clarence Gillis: Oh, no.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Certainly you do.


Clarence Gillis: What we export is our people and raw material. It is processed up here, and then we buy it back. We export one third of Canada's basic steel, but it is processed in Ontario and Quebec.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh, no.


Clarence Gillis: Then we buy it back.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Three-quarters of it is processed in the maritime provinces.


Clarence Gillis: Where?


Clarence Decatur Howe: At Sydney and New Glasgow.


Clarence Gillis: There is no processing at Sydney at all. Sydney is just a raw material plant.


John Horace Dickey: Before we leave the item relating to foreign trade, I should like to say a word with respect to trade through the port of Halifax. The minister is correct when he states that the volume of business through that port at present compares favourably with the pre-war volume of business.


Clarence Gillis: So you are back to 1939.


John Horace Dickey: No; we are well above 1939. But what we want to avoid is a return to the days of 1939 and those preceding. What we are interested in is to try to have as much of the maritime business as possible put through the port of Halifax. I trust that the officials to whom the minister has referred will do everything they possibly can to keep the Canadian export and import trade moving through Canadian Atlantic ports. After all, parity of rates is maintained, and exporters and importers should be urged to use Canadian channels.
My question to the hon. member for Cape Breton was prompted by the fact that he appeared to refer to the effect of the freight rate increase in diverting trade from the port of Halifax. Two instances were suggested right after the increase came into effect, in which it was alleged that these increases in rates had diverted trade from Halifax. Those cases were immediately investigated and were discussed by me and other members in this house. From the remarks made by the hon. member for Cape Breton South I presumed he had heard of other instances which have not been brought to my attention. From hjs answer to my question I realize that he was simply discussing the two cases that had been thoroughly investigated and found not to have any basis. I do not think the port of Halifax or any other port can be assisted by trying to make cases that do not exist.


Clarence Gillis: The answer given by the minister in the house did not suggest there was no basis for the complaint from Halifax. Actually two ships were in process of unloading. They battened down their hatches and left; and the longshoremen's union, who were working on the job, made the complaint that, in effect, it was the result of the freight increase. I have seen editorials in Halifax papers supporting that argument. I am not a fortune-teller. But actually, two ships did pull out for the reasons I have suggested, and these are supported by the men who worked on the job. At the time, the minister said it was not because of the freight rate increase. Hon. members may accept that statement if they wish. I am still doubtful. I do not doubt the minister's word, but I would think there was a real reason for the ships leaving Halifax harbour at that time.


Mr. CHURCH:: This item refers to commercial relations and foreign tariffs division, including a contribution of $2,800 to the international customs tariffs bureau. There has been a complete change in the set-up of the department. This is a practically new division. If we turn to page 251 of the estimates we

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find the details for this item. This new division deals with tariffs and exports, and in my view it upsets the whole policy of the department as it has operated since confederation. As to the reference in the item to the international customs tariffs bureau, I say that is where our trouble started-over at Geneva, with these foreign bureaux. Trade in grain and cattle used to flow east and west to the overseas market of the world. Now, however, because of these Geneva pacts, a great change in exports and imports has been made, and this new division has been created. We are upsetting the whole trade and commerce of this country as it has operated since confederation, and this change has come from Geneva. Trade and commerce is the lifeblood of this country. Under former ministers and the present one we have become the fifth trading nation of the world. The department has done excellent work, but our trade commissioners throughout the world have been duplicated most unnecessarily by those from other departments.
The businessmen and working class depend upon trade for their work. I do not believe in the department's new policy of going all over the world and arranging new divisions. I say that all this trouble started in the international customs union. I believe our trade agents throughout the world have done good work. One has only to visit the international trade fair to realize the truth of that statement. I hope those who did not see the fair the Saturday before last will see it tomorrow, because that is the last day. The trade fair is housed in the coliseum which was built by the city. The government has helped to the extent of only $100,000 for a trade and commerce building at the exhibition grounds. The city of Toronto has spent nearly $30,000,000, of its own volition for ground buildings and permanent exhibits; it received only a small grant.


Mr. TIMMINS:: Following what has been said by the hon. member for Broadview, hon. members must have been chagrined to read in the press last night that there had been some criticism of the international trade fair by some of the exhibitors from Great Britain.
I believe hon. members who attended were more than pleased and gratified with the exhibits and the progress the various exhibitors told us they were making. I am not for one moment attempting to foment criticism, but I would ask the minister to see that investigation be made or some attention given to the complaints, and an answer made to those who, in a way, have tried to pour cold water on the benefits which, as I believe all 
hon. members will agree, have resulted from the international trade fair.
Some time ago we were told in the press that the fair would be held again next year. I should like to hear some cheering words from the minister about the fair held this year, and I suggest that the rumours that the fair has not been a success should be quashed.
The publication "Foreign Trade," put out early last year by the Department of Trade and Commerce, has been well received by industry and commerce in Canada. In my own constituency of Parkdale I have sent out a great number of issues of this publication. I know that one person, who was engaged in the forwarding and shipping business, sending goods to all parts of Canada and to Great Britain, found the publication of such great interest that he immediately communicated with all the trade commissioners appointed by Canada, and by so doing has made a direct contact for business to flow to those various countries.
A few moments ago the minister said that he had an active transportation commissioner here in Canada, but he also pointed out that the buyer is the one who dictates the route by which goods are shipped, I am satisfied from my own experience in business that industry in Canada does not know the routes, and does not know the way it should be shipping goods. I am pleased to know that the publication to which I refer has had the effect of informing the public to some extent as to how they should go about it. If I might offer a suggestion, I would say the department should find ways and means of placing in the publication further information respecting transport.
Most of the people engaged in industry are looking for new markets abroad. As some of our markets in some of the sterling area countries seem to be drying up, our trade commissioners, who have done a good job, should make their positions just that much more active. We live by trade in Canada; it is the backbone of our country, and we must back up this particular branch of our Department of Trade and Commerce.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Referring to the trade fair, let me say that there are about 1,500 exhibitors, representing most of the nations of the world. Of that number, many are doing good business, while others are not. That is bound to be so.
I have talked to a good many exhibitors and, by and large, they are happy about the fair and intend to return next year. But there are those whose goods are priced out of line and they are not able to sell them. I understand that that is true of a few English firms.

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The real test of the fair will come next year when we see how many exhibitors of this year will pay the fees for the privilege of exhibiting next year. All the information we have now is that the fair next year will be even more successful.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Is it intended that the fair shall be an annual event?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are going to hold the trade fair next year, anyway.


Mr. CASE:: I think we all appreciate the significance of the trade fair. I want to thank the minister for his invitation to attend the opening ceremonies and view the exhibits. It was a unique opportunity to see the products of various countries. I believe that much good will come from it, inasmuch as those who are exhibiting will have an opportunity to become better acquainted with the products and the producers of other countries.
With the hon. member for Parkdale, I think that this is one department of government with which we should all be most vitally concerned. Canada is a tremendous producing country. Probably we would have a better appreciation of our productive capacity if we looked back at the production during the war. If we are to survive we must cultivate the old markets and seek new and greater ones. I am glad to see the interest that is being taken in maintaining and possibly improving our present position. We produce far more than we can consume, and we must have an outlet for our surplus products.
There is a matter I want to discuss which is related to this item but which runs through all the various items of this department and of others. Perhaps the minister can give an explanation which will serve to answer for all. I am referring to the items for temporary assistance. In this item there is an amount of $49,551 for temporary assistance, while the total for all the items for the department is upwards of $1,500,000. What I am anxious to find out is how these people are employed and what qualifications they must have. Are they under the civil service? How 'are their appointments made? What is the average period of their employment? Are they seasonal employees? Why is this item of temporary assistance in every estimate?


Clarence Decatur Howe: At the moment the department has a total of 3,447 employees, of whom 449 of the staff in Ottawa and 760 of the staff outside of Ottawa are permanent. The temporary staff in Ottawa amounts to 1,413, of which 1,091 are in the bureau of statistics. My hon. friend will appreciate that the work of the bureau fluctuates. When the bureau is
taking a census there is a big expansion, and in between times the requirements are for fewer employees. Aside from that I do not think the proportions are out of line with those of the other departments.
I could not say how long some of these temporaries have been employed. My hon. friend will appreciate the fact that during the war the Department of Munitions and Supply and the Department of Reconstruction and Supply were temporary departments and all the employees were temporary. The practice of this department is not any different from that of the other departments in the division between permanent and temporary employees.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I do not suggest that the temporaries in the minister's department are out of line with those in other departments. Are these temporaries full-time employees?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are full-time employees appointed by the civil service commission, in the same way as other employees, but they have not obtained permanent status.


Mr. JACKMAN:: Can the minister tell us more about the system? Does the civil service commission or the department recommend the appointments? In this case the salaries of the permanent employees total approximately $39,000, while those of the temporary assistants total $49,551. Apparently there are not many persons involved, because I imagine that those with permanent status would be relatively few. I take it their salaries would be the higher of the two classifications. There must be a large number of persons in the $49,000 group. Do they have to be with the department a year? What is the system? This all seems rather odd; one would not find it in any other type of business with which the minister is familiar outside of government administration. I should think the temporary nature of the employment must have some effect on the morale of the workers, particularly if they are kept on year after year on a temporary basis. If their morale is affected, that in turn affects the work and efficiency of the department.


Clarence Decatur Howe: When any person enters the public service he does so as a temporary, and there is a minimum requirement of one year's service before he can be made permanent. Usually more time than that is allowed to elapse before he is made permanent. The example to which the hon. member has referred is a new branch. In the import division there are 45 employees, of whom seven have been made permanent and 38 are temporary. As the branch grows older,
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more permanent positions will be established and more temporaries will be moved into those positions.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I believe it is the foreign trade services vote we are dealing with at the moment. There is nothing out of line there in the ratio of permanent and temporary employees; in fact it is rather in favour of permanent employees in comparison with other items having to do with the Department of Trade and Commerce. I want to find out if there is any hard and fast system which might keep only ten per cent of employees on a temporary basis, as is done in the post office, or do the employees know where they stand when they seek a position with the department? Surely there is some system.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is the system that applies to the whole public service. A man enters as a temporary, and after a certain time when positions are set up


Harry Rutherford Jackman: How long?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The system is pretty well operated by the civil service commission. As a matter of fact when a man enters the employ of the department he is under the direction of the civil service commission. At a certain time his status is changed from temporary to permanent.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: If it is a certain time, it is not an uncertain time; what is the time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: A minimum of one year.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: That is most uncertain. The minister appreciates the significance of my question?


Clarence Decatur Howe: He certainly would have to wait a year, anyway.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Can the minister say how many of the temporary employees included in the $49,000 item have been there less than one year, and how many have been there three years? Can he give me some indication of the length of time they have been serving in the department?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend is discussing the commercial relations and foreign tariffs division, vote 441?


Harry Rutherford Jackman: The vote we are on now. It is a small item.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I was looking at the import division when I gave the other figure. There are 28 employees in the commercial relations branch, of whom 12 are permanent and 16 are temporary. I think my hon. friend will find that the salaries are in about the same proportion.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I am surprised to know that, because one would think that the permanent employees would be the senior men and would get substantially more than
the temporaries. Surely positions commanding salaries, for instance, of $4,800 and $3,400. should be entitled to permanent status after a reasonable length of time during which it can be determined whether their services are satisfactory and they can pass the required examination. I again ask the minister if he knows how long these sixteen temporary assistants have served, how many have served one year, how many have served two or three years, and so on.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Four or five have been taken on in the last few months. I would have to get the individual records of each person to give my hon. friend the information he wants.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: There is a minimum requirement of one year's service as a temporary before an employee can be made permanent, and the only certainty in the department seems to be the uncertainty as to how long a person must work as a temporary before he is made permanent. This item comes up time after time in the estimates, and I think we should know exactly what the situation is. Surely after one year's service a man would have demonstrated whether he was efficient enough for permanent status.


Mr. MacNICOL:: 
Harry Rutherford Jackman: The minister did not enlighten us on the question I put. If he is sometimes disgusted with the operations of parliament he should remember that members may be disgusted when they cannot get the information they seek. We still do not know what the system is as to making temporaries permanent. All the minister has told us is that there is a list of temporary employees, and in this particular branch, in relation to the small number of employees which I took as an example, he said that five or six came in during the year. I know nothing about the others, whether three or four of them have served for two or for three years, or what not. If the minister would be co-operative I am sure he would find that the committee would be co-operative with him.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is hardly the job of the minister to move civil servants around. That is the job of the civil service commission and the personnel officer of the department. My hon. friend picks out a group of fifteen people and asks why they are not made permanent. Perhaps they do not want to become permanent. A great many girls in the civil service are not the slightest bit interested in permanency or in a pension. I can tell my hon. friend that because I know of cases that prove my point. A case came up the other day of a man who had been fifty-one years in one branch, and was still a temporary, because he prefered to be a temporary. I do not know how I can explain the inner thoughts of a group of civil servants whom I do not know personally. My hon. friend has been here a long time, and no doubt has been in contact with the civil service commission. It is not a matter of some general rule. If it were, I could explain the rule to him. It is a matter of the individual's wishes, and not knowing the individuals, I cannot give my hon. friend the information he wants.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: The average salary is $3,000, and not many of these would be in the classification the minister mentioned. If it is the wish of the employee himself that he be not put on a permanent basis, very well; we have got something. If there is a limit of one year's temporary service, has the department
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recommended the permanent appointment of every employee in this little section who has been there one year and who has fully proved himself? Does the commission wait for the recommendation of the head of the department? If the head of the department has not recommended for permanency an efficient civil servant who has been there for one year, why has he not done so?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If we are satisfied that the employee intends to make a career of the public service, usually he is made permanent.
If we are not satisfied that he intends to make a permanent job of it, or if we are not satisfied that he can fill his particular niche to the satisfaction of the department in the long run, he is not made permanent. That is about the size of it.


Mr. COCKERAM:: There is another item which recurs all through these estimates, namely, sundries, to which I referred yesterday. In this department it amounts to about $160,000, or 1-25 per cent of the total estimates of the department. It seems to me that these are excessive expenses which cannot be specified at the time the estimates are made up. I am beginning to think that instead of having a sundry item for each division or branch of the department, there should be a sundry item for the department itself. This sundry item for the whole department should be under the control of the minister or the deputy minister. Here we have one and a quarter per cent of all the estimates of this department indicated as sundries. I think it should be under one heading.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think the officers of the department would be all for what my hon. friend suggests, the big blanket item, but I do not think it would be as good for the treasury as it is to have the sundry items limited to small amounts in each particular branch.


Alan Cockeram: It is the small amounts that make the big amount in the end.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I want to say a word about the trade fair. I think the minister will find that the people who were not able to sell goods at the trade fair were from countries whose currencies were overpriced in terms of world currency. I think that is the main reason.
The very great success of the trade fair was in no small measure due to the officials who staffed it. I should like to pay tribute to Colonel Orme Barrett and the officials who worked under him so effectively for the success of this fair and of the accompanying "world trade week."


Clarence Decatur Howe: Since the subject has been brought up I should like to say that we have a splendid group of officials in charge, of the fair. Mr. Bannerman, and his assistant, Mr. Dayton, took the fair in hand with very little to work on. The success of the arrangements and the success of the fair in general are both due to the zeal and imagination that they have put into the project.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
442. Export division, $197,564.
Mr. FRASER:: I noticed in the press the day before yesterday that 3,000 pounds of flour had been seized on an Italian ship in Montreal harbour. Was it seized because these people were unable to get an export permit? The Royal Canadian Mounted Police stepped in, seized the flour and demanded $400 as a penalty or a fine, and said there would be further charges. Is it difficult to get a permit to ship flour out of Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, it is very difficult to get a permit. Flour and wheat are under strict international allocation. Anyone who could buy flour in the domestic market and export it might reap a handsome reward, perhaps double his money, and, in doing so, deprive the farmer of participation in the export price, or rather the world price of the product. I do not know the circumstances of this particular shipment, but I would judge that it was wheat bought in the domestic market and sent into export channels without a permit.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The article said that the flour was bought in local stores in Montreal; therefore they evidently knew that they could not get a permit. I wanted to find out if the department had strict control over that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Item 442 and the items following it amount to an expenditure of almost $3,000,000. The items are divided into export division, import division, industrial development division, trade commissioner service, and so on. I want to ask the minister first the general question as to how this whole thing is organized. I have in mind the debate which took place on the passing of the export-import bill a year ago. I formed a great respect for some of the officials who were dealing with that. I want to know just how this shapes up in the minister's mind. We passed the export-import bill a year ago, the duration of which was roughly a year. It was extended this year. I should like to have the minister give us first information as to the likely duration of this. I am not asking him to predict how many months or years it

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will last; I am asking him to give us a picture of the kind of trading world we are in at the moment, and in particular the relation between this export and import branch and our trade commissioners all over the world. Are the export and import branches purely controlling branches? Are they merely prohibiting this or that, or are they actually entering into and controlling business?
I want to give the minister an illustration of what happened before the committee. He will know of the kind of thing I have in mind. A year ago we had this illustration which interested me very much. It was pointed out there had to be certain export controls on steel. It was also pointed out that the department was exercising a discretion as to the kind of business which would be allowed an export licence-that is to say, businesses which they thought would be more likely to continue after the reconstruction period were given export licences. On the other hand, those that they thought had less expectation of going on were denied export licences. I mention this only as an illustration of the fact that these controls seem to be entering very largely into the whole course of business.
I recognize the fact that we are living in a world where controls are in the atmosphere. To sum up, I ask the minister to give us in this connection, as I asked last night, a comprehensive picture of the import and export situation. Will he illustrate by saying that certain commodities are restricted, and tell us just how it enters into the whole fabric of the business community? What is the course at the present time? Are things tightening up? Is there less freedom or more? Finally, will the minister state as specifically as he can the relationship between these three organizations, if they are three organizations, namely, import, export and trade commissioners? I take it these are the people who are seeking business all over the world for our exporters.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend is going outside the foreign trade services. He is talking about the import permit division.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I thought we were on item 442.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, but it does not include the licensing division. If the hon. member will look at item 462 he will see that that section deals with the export permit branch. These are all promotional branches. Item 441 is concerned with furnishing information on tariffs; item 442 promotes exports from within Canada, and item 443 promotes imports into
Canada-that is through men working in Canada to promote imports. Item 444 has to do with the industrial development division.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: We have not come to that yet.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. Item 445 has to do with trade commissioner service, trade commissioners located in different countries. Item 446 has to do with trade publicity and advertising in Canada and abroad. We can discuss the licensing division on item 440 when we return to it.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I accept the minister's correction. I did not observe item 462, but I now ask the minister this question. As I understand it, item 442, the export division, has to do with a group of people working in Canada to promote export trade.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I can understand trade commissioners working abroad to promote export trade. I think I understand the nature of their functions. I do not think I understand fully the functions of those covered by 442. Perhaps the minister will explain.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The trade commissioner reports on the requirements for a certain commodity in South Africa, let us say, or Australia, or some other country. That comes to the department and it is sent to the branch we are now discussing. That branch gets in touch with appropriate manufacturers and says, "We have a market for this commodity; can you supply it?" Information goes back to the trade commissioner that it can be supplied by a certain firm or firms. The branch is simply a- link between the trade commissioner and those desiring to export from this country.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would that be small firms who do not themselves maintain a selling staff abroad?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Even firms who do maintain staffs abroad are glad to get the help of the trade commissioner service. It is available to every firm in Canada. It is the business of this branch to know Canadian industry and to know what parts of Canadian industry would be interested in inquiries abroad for certain items.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Who heads this particular
division?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Bull.
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Mr. STEPHENSON:: There are certain products for which we are finding it difficult to get a market. May I discuss the export of apples and tobacco under this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I suppose so.


Charles Elwood Stephenson: We can now produce more tobacco in Canada than we can use domestically, and therefore there is an exportable surplus. The English market is pretty well shut off at present, by reason of their austerity program, I presume. I understand an effort has been made to find other markets, but I would like to know whether England might be in a position to import some of our surplus tobacco this year. The minister was good enough to meet a delegation and discuss the matter with them, but I do not know whether any further information is available. Has England indicated whether she will import Canadian tobacco this year, or are other markets available for our surplus?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think there is anything to add to what the tobacco industry has been tdld. We are working on the problem, but there is no indication as yet that we shall be able to sell Canadian tobacco to England. However, the door is not closed, and we hope that sales will be possible.


Charles Elwood Stephenson: Has the department made inquiries to find out whether other countries might be interested in our surplus Canadian tobacco?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Every trade commissioner has been advised that Canada is likely to have a surplus of tobacco for export, and all trade commissioners are working on it.


Charles Elwood Stephenson: A special effort should be made along this line, because there is a great deal of submarginal land that could be used for growing tobacco. This would bring under cultivation many areas that have not been able to produce a great deal in the past. It would be to the advantage of various counties in this province and other parts of Canada as well where tobacco can be grown. I urge that every effort be made to find a market for our surplus tobacco.
I would also like to ask what the situation is [DOT]as regards apples. I understand there is a surplus in Canada. Is there a possibility of finding a market for it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are aware of the importance of tobacco and are making an effort to sell it. We have sold every tobacco crop so far, and we hope to sell this crop. As far as apples are concerned, we are taking care of the situation in every part of the land. The 1947 crop in British Columbia has been wholly sold.


Mr. SINCLAIR:: Wholly sold?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John Ewen Sinclair: British Columbia?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John Ewen Sinclair: There are 600,000 boxes still in Yale.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have definite information that the crop is sold.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Perhaps the minister could check that up.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am giving the information.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I was asking if the minister would check it up.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have the information and I am giving it. The crops in other parts of the country have been taken care of, with the help of the government. We are doing all we can about the apple crop. The British market is closed to Canadian apples. The domestic crop in Britain is considerable and the United Kingdom government does not permit importation of apples. The United States tariffs have been lowered, and every effort will be made to sell apples in that country. A good proportion of the British Columbia crop was sold in Brazil under a barter arrangement for oranges, which was worked out with the help of the department. We are exploring every possibility of exchanging apples either for dollars or for some other saleable commodity.


Charles Elwood Stephenson: As for apples being sold, I think it might be well for the department to ascertain whether they have been sold, because in my part of the county they have been finding it difficult to get a market. They had to peddle them around in the various cities to get rid of them, putting them up *in special packages. There were apples in my county for which a market could not be found.


Mr. MENARY:: A good many fowl are exported from my district to the United States. I had occasion last week to get a permit for one of our shippers and he was held off for a week. There were 10,000 birds in stock that had to be fed. I presume this comes under the export permit branch.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is really under 442. We have not yet come to that. However, the department issues export permits for fowl, with the advice of the Department of Agriculture. This department exercises no discretion in the matter. We simply take the advice of the Department of Agriculture. The export of live fowl is under permit, and we regulate exports in consultation with the United States Department of Agriculture.

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Lewis Menary: Just now they are cutting down on the granting of permits, so they say. This firm could not get one for about ten days. This small firm say that they are giving them to large packers. Is that right?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not know.


Lewis Menary: If you give them to large packers you should give them to the small ones too, because you should treat all the people in the same way in the export of these birds.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can assure my hon. friend that if we are giving export permits, the small man gets them first.


Mr. HERRIDGE:: I wish to bring to the attention of the minister a matter that I pointed out to the Minister of Agriculture some time ago. I refer to the shipping of gift apples to Britain. Before the war we sent large quantities of apples as gifts from British Columbia. The apples were exported for delivery to the persons designated. They were sent to Great Britain in bulk or carload lots, and then delivered by carrier to the person designated. The British ministry of food will not accept them unless they are consigned to the ministry direct, and they are allowed to designate where those apples shall go. The fruit organizations in British Columbia are confident that they could ship this year in the neighbourhood of half a million boxes of apples to Great Britain as gift apples, a direct contribution of the Canadian people, by putting on a campaign in co-operation with the Canadian Legion, women's organizations and farmers' organizations. But they cannot organize a campaign because of the present restrictions imposed by the British ministry of food. I ask the minister if something cannot be done to discuss this matter with the British ministry of food so that this half million boxes of apples can go forward. It is a matter of particular concern to some of the fruit growers in my constituency who for years have been growing two particular varieties of apples for the English market. I refer to Cox's Orange and Jonathan. Owing to the loss of the British preference, unless something is done in this respect the Cox's Orange growers will simply not have any income this year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend will understand that the Canadian government is doing nothing to interfere with the sending of gift boxes of apples to England. This government has discussed the subject with the British ministry of food, who have explained the problems surrounding the situation and have not acceded to the Canadian request for consideration. I think there is a good deal of reason behind their refusal to do so. Therefore I can offer little hope that the British ministry will change its position.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: In connection with trade commissioner service there is an item here of 1366,000 for permanent help. I want to relate that to an item lower down, living allowances, $476,000; and to another one further down, cost of living bonus abroad, $56,000. These items look disproportionate, but there may be sound reasons behind them. In fact I have known cases in which foreign trade representatives have been underpaid in relation to the job they were called upon to do. Will the minister explain how it is that a group of trained men of standing who get $366,000 require $476,000 for living allowances? Are the living allowances tax free, or are they partly to allow for inflation, which latter item I suppose is covered by the cost-of-living bonus abroad? In other words are these foreign trade officers, to whom I suppose the item largely relates, paid anything like an adequate salary, or is it necessary for them to get a cost-of-living bonus in other countries? Surely the cost of living in the various countries to which they are assigned cannot be so much higher than it is in Canada. Yet the ordinary salary does not seem to be adequate. As to cost-of-living bonuses where there may be inflation, there is a smaller item of $56,000. Would the minister explain generally why those items are disproportionate?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The salaries of trade commissioners are based on the Canadian cost of living. The cost of living varies greatly in other countries. For instance, I am told that in Caracas a stenographer gets $400 a month, and that is consistent with the scale of living in Caracas.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What kind of money?


Clarence Decatur Howe: United States dollars. We have prevailing today an uneven situation throughout the world with respect to the cost of living, and it is necessary to adjust the living allowances accordingly. The bonuses relate to the help that is employed abroad. That is, in Egypt bonuses are paid to Egyptians who are employed in our service. The allowances are made after careful survey by the dominion bureau of statistics as to a proper adjustment which in the specified country would give a salary-plus allowance which would be equivalent to the salary alone in Canada at the rate indicated.
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Harry Rutherford Jackman: It seems extraordinary that the allowances would require to be nearly 150 per cent more than the salaries themselves. After all, these people are not called upon to maintain large establishments. They are business representatives. I have certain fears on one point, and I should like to be reassured. Are they paid a salary which is commensurate with the position they must maintain abroad to do the work which the department expects them to do? If the answer is in the negative, does the minister expect that in the future, as the world becomes more stabilized-as we hope it will in short order-this item will almost entirely disappear?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend will appreciate the difficulty of fixing a man's salary on the basis of the fact that he happens to be stationed for the time being at Buenos Aires. We could adjust his salary so that he could live properly in Buenos Aires, consistent with his situation in that country. But we prefer to fix his salary based on his living in Canada, and make such adjustment by way of bonus as the temporary situation warrants. I think my hon. friend will agree that is a sounder method. If we move the man to a country where the difference in the cost of living is not great, he would get a small allowance. But if he happened to be moved to a country such as the one I mentioned, namely, Caracas-which I believe is the extreme situation today-he would need a much larger living allowance. We believe the salaries are reasonable for the position, provided the cost of living is the same as in Canada.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I suppose the living allowances are tax free?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I must say this indicates that Canada deserves some credit for the fact that the cost of living in this country is so much lower than that which prevails in other areas.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We seldom get much credit from the opposition.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Chairman, the recent discussion has been on item 445, but item 444 has not yet been called.


William Ross Macdonald: I think the point raised by the hon. member for Davenport is well taken. We have been considering item 445. Can we carry item 445?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


John Ritchie MacNicol: But, Mr. Chairman, you have not yet called item 444.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: We are surely still at item 442.


William Ross Macdonald: The last item called was 442. But as the hon. member for Davenport has stated, we have been considering trade commissioner service, and that is item 445.


Lionel Chevrier: Let us carry them all.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am not opposing the carrying of item 445, because the discussion has been on that item. But after lunch we should go back to 444.


William Ross Macdonald: Shall item 442 carry?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


An hon. MEMBER:: No.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Let us carry something.
Item 442 agreed to.


William Ross Macdonald: Shall item 443 carry?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: No.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: On item 443-


James MacKerras Macdonnell: It is one o'clock.


William Ross Macdonald: I understand the hon. member for St. Paul's has a few questions.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I had better wait until after lunch.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What about item 443? Is that carried?


William Ross Macdonald: Item 442 is carried. Items 443, 444 and 445 stand.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Before you leave the chair, Mr. Chairman, may I make one general observation? I understand the minister is leaving to receive an honour from his old university. I am sure we should all like to congratulate him. It is pleasant to think that he will there be in an atmosphere free from criticism-we might say where the wicked cease from troubling and the weary are at rest.	[DOT]


Clarence Decatur Howe: I may say that hon. members are bidding their adieus too soon, because I expect to be with them for a couple of hours this afternoon.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.

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The committee resumed at three o'clock.
1,1,0. Departmental administration, $272,600.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: The hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario is out of the house for about half an hour. Will the minister allow this item to stand?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Do we have to run this house to suit the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario? This is the third time it has happened.


Mr. CASSELMAN:: You have been out more often than that.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: I am not going to make excuses for the hon. member.


Clarence Decatur Howe: He agreed to take it at three o'clock.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: He told me that unfortunately he was detained. I am asking the minister if he will extend the courtesy of delaying this item for a short time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: All right.
Item stands.
!, 1,3. Import division, including contributions as detailed in the estimates, $132,084.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Who is the officer in charge of this division, and what work does it do?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The division is in charge of Mr. Denis Harvey. The work of the import division is exactly the same as I described for the export division, except that it deals with imports instead of exports.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Do the officers of that branch work in conjunction with each industry in Canada to assist in the matter of imports? I refer to commodities such as sugar.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If any Canadian firm wishes to import anything at all it will get in touch with the import division, and that division, in turn, will get in touch with the appropriate trade commissioner.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Has any consideration been given by the minister to the provisions of schedule I, goods coming from Great Britain? I cannot see very much reason for this provision, because Great Britain needs dollars.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I take it the hon. member is referring to schedule I of the bill.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Yes, the list of prohibited imports from Great Britain.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is administered by the Minister of Finance. I cannot answer the question.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1,1,1,. Industrial development division, $27,863.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I am sure that with his great knowledge of industry the minister will have an opportunity here to do one of his big jobs. The vote of course is small, and it is possible that the work has not yet got well under way. The promotion of industrial development is one activity in which the minister has had a good deal of experience, and I am sure he will do a good job. I should imagine, however, that the division would have to work differently from the manner in which it now works.
Perhaps in this connection a leaf could be taken out of the program of the Toronto industrial commission, an organization with which I am sure the minister is familiar. They have done a masterful job in promoting industry in that city. The commission was organized in 1929 by the private effort of gentlemen in Toronto who were interested in the growth of the city's industrial activities. Since that time many promoters of industry, including myself, have been greatly pleased with the work they have done.
The commission in Toronto has brought to the Toronto district 264 businesses, both large and small, now employing directly about 16,000 employees. That is a large number of men and women to be furnished employment and to be kept occupied. The sum of $45,000,000 has been invested in new capital, and these new business ventures occupy about 6,000,000 square feet of floor space.
With the small amount of money at its disposal, this division of the minister's department will not be able to do a great deal. I learned recently from an old country industrialist that no less than a thousand industries of one kind or another plan to come to America. Naturally, if it is possible to get them, we want most of those industries to come to Canada, and to open up business in the various provinces.
The Toronto industrial commission, when submitting information to an industrialist who is considering coming to Ontario, follows certain lines which I suggest might well be followed in all the provinces. They try to present to the industrialist the advantages of Toronto as a great railway centre, favourably situated so far as highways, airways, and shipping are concerned. They explain carefully the facility with which raw products can
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be brought to that city for fabrication. Many centres in Canada have raw products right at their doors.
The Toronto commission attempts to present the desirability of living in a city like Toronto, with its educational facilities, the beauties of the surrounding country, a ready market, and other important features. They also say that we have cheap power.


Clarence Decatur Howe: At times you do.


John Ritchie MacNicol: As the minister knows, the present condition is only temporary. No one knows that better than the minister. We have expanded our power requirements by leaps and bounds, until today I believe the provincial hydro commission is selling around three to four million horsepower of electric energy a year. That is a tremendous amount of power. There is no doubt that the province will soon overcome its temporary power shortage. Within a year or more they will be connecting their wires to another million and a half horsepower. There may be a shortage even after that-indeed, I hope industrial development is such that there will be. In the next year we should have five or six million horsepower available, and I should like to see industry grow to a point where we would require seven or eight million.
I should like to see this division make those representations to prospective industrialists. They Should point out that power is available. Indeed, if the program I enunciated on April 25 for producing power in the maritime provinces is carried through, to produce power out of coal, they too will be in a position to provide cheaper power facilities for new industry.
The vote would indicate that at present the division is a small one. However, no one knows better than I do the capacity of the minister to bring industry here-and I give him credit for it. I am not one who censures him. I know his 'capacity, and I believe the division should be expanded so that it could bring to Canada the greater portion of the thousand industrialists who will move from the old country, France and Czechoslovakia to America.
I look forward to this country having a population of 25,000,000. I may not live to see that day, but we have incomparable resources, we have great potential power developments, and there are great advantages here. I feel sure that this branch could be expanded to do a wonderful job, just as the Toronto industrial commission has done with its limited facilities. Other cities and towns have industrial commissions, but I am not wholly familiar with them. I support the minister and urge him to expand this division.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I thank my hon. friend. I might say that the merger of the Department 
of Trade and Commerce and the Department of Reconstruction and Supply will make it possible greatly to strengthen this division. The committee will be aware that the work of the department of reconstruction is to stimulate industry, create new industries and facilitate the changing of war industries into permanent industries. The men engaged in that work are still in the department of reconstruction, but we hope the merger will have taken place within the next year, after which we would hope to have a much stronger industrial development division.


Mr. McCULLOUGH (Assiniboia):: I am happy to hear what the minister has just said, and I support what the hon. member for Davenport has said about this division. I think what the hon. member has said is in accordance with what we in this group .have advocated for years, in fact it is part of our program. There is a need for a commission or board which would plan the development of the resources of this country from coast to coast. With a disintegrated economy we have the development, on the one hand, of things which we do not need, and a lack of development, on the other hand, of resources which would balance our economy.
I notice that this vote is only for $27,863. That would, seem to indicate that the only service that could be rendered would be the diffusion of information to industrial firms. As we go into the post-war period I think an industrial commission should be set up in order that our people may have the benefits of the resources of this country. We are penalizing our people by placing restrictions on imports because of a shortage of United States dollars. We import coal from the United States to the amount of $225 million, or about one-quarter of our deficit of United States dollars. If we had a reasonable and imaginative program to develop our coal resources we could largely offset our deficit of United States dollars. In addition, as the hon. member for Davenport has pointed out, there should be a further development of our power and other resources.


Mr. ZAPLITNY:: Does this division have anything to do with the establishment of new industry, particularly in the west, where processing industries of many kinds could be set up?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If anyone desired information as to the potentialities of a particular area, that would be provided by this division. The type of work mentioned by my hon. friend would foe carried on by the department of reconstruction.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

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W. Trade commissioner service, including payment of compensation to trade commissioners for loss of furniture and effects, under regulations approved by the governor in council, $1,999,571.
Mr. IRVINE:: How would a trade commissioner lose his furniture?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Largely as a result of enemy occupation.


Alan Cockeram: Is this just for this year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Alan Cockeram: Will it be a recurring item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It may be. There is an order in council providing for compensation should a trade commissioner lose his furniture in the performance of his duties.


Alan Cockeram: How much of this item is to cover loss of furniture?


Clarence Decatur Howe: About $50,000.


Alan Cockeram: How does that compare with last year? Where was the furniture lost last year? Where was it lost this year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It was covered by order in council last year, and it is covered by order in council this year. I do not remember how much it was last year, but it would be whatever the furniture that was lost was worth.


Alan Cockeram: It is a large item.


Clarence Decatur Howe: 


Alan Cockeram: Where was the enemy action this year that would account for this loss? Surely those things should be cleaned up before now.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is really a clean-up fund. For instance, the trade commissioner in Hong Kong had to evacuate in a hurry and he left his goods there. It is not possible as yet to judge what the loss is. The sum of $50,000 has been put in to cover losses in Hong Kong, Japan, and other occupied countries where trade commissioners had to leave in a hurry and leave their possessions behind.


Alan Cockeram: Will there be more of these items coming up later, or will this one Clean the thing up?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We hope this vote will clean it up.


Mr. MURPHY:: I am concerned over the fact that the item for trade and industrial promotion is only $27,863, whereas the total salaries are some $922,000.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Is my hon. friend referring to vote 444?


Joseph Warner Murphy: No, 445.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The industrial development division is a small branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce at Ottawa, while vote 445 covers the trade commissioner service all over the world.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I was referring to the details of vote 445, which are to be found on page 253, in particular to the fourth from the last item on the page, trade and industrial promotion, $25,000.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is a fund for special promotional work. For instance, if we wish to bring a trade delegation here from France, the expenses of the delegation would be paid out of that fund. Last year we had a trade delegation go from Canada to South Africa. The expenses came out of that fund. It is an item to cover unexpected development work.


Joseph Warner Murphy: Are these trade commissions or any of their personnel active in promoting our tourist industry in those various countries?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, all of them.


Alan Cockeram: Is the $476,267 for living allowances for our representatives abroad?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Alan Cockeram: Is it based on a uniform per diem allowance, or do the rates vary with different countries?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I explained that in detail this morning, but perhaps my hon. friend was out of the chamber. The personnel are paid salaries that would be adequate in Canada, and adjustments are made to suit the requirements of the countries in which they are stationed.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: There is an item of $54,200 for opening new offices. What new offices were opened in 1947, in what countries, and for what purposes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Offices are being opened in Karachi, Berne, Switzerland, and Turkey, for the purpose of promoting trade.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Have we any staff in Ankara?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have a trade commissioner in Karachi. We have just moved Mr. Lamontagne, our former trade commissioner in Paris, to Berne, Switzerland.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: We have always had a substantial trade with Switzerland. Last
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year we exported to Switzerland $14,000,000 worth of goods, and imported $12,000,000 worth. Is there any particular reason why we should have a trade commissioner there when trade is flowing so well between the two countries?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Switzerland has always been handled by the trade commissioner in Paris, but trade problems are becoming so complex that the department in its wisdom decided to have a trade commissioner in Switzerland.


Alan Cockeram: What new offices are to be opened this year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have just given that.


Alan Cockeram: You said they were
opened last year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Provision is being made for them for the first time now.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1,1,6. Trade publicity and advertising in Canada and abroad, $303,3Q8.
Joseph Warner Murphy: Page 254 of the details
shows $150,000 for advertising in Canada and abroad. Has the minister a breakdown showing the amount spent in Canada and the amount spent abroad? What is the name of the firm handling the advertising?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can get the breakdown in a moment or two. The advertising is handled by Walsh advertising agency.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Apparently there is a decrease from $300,000 odd to $150,000 for advertising in Canada and abroad. This would appear to indicate a change in policy. I would like to have some explanation. I am not objecting to the reduction, but why did we spend so much before if we can do with half as much now?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The item last year was used to a considerable extent in publicizing the international trade fair. There is a separate vote for that this year. It is just a transfer from one vote to another.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: It is not really a reduction at all?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It was not represented as such.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Ordinarily when you see an amount of $150,000 set up for this year and $300,000 for last year you assume there is a reduction.


Clarence Decatur Howe: You must not trust too much to a superficial view.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I, admit that figures are often misleading, if

(hat is what the minister is saying. What was spent for the trade fair this year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: 


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Then why is there not a reduction from $250,000 as against $150,000?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Because we are doing some other promotional advertising.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: If it involves another $100,000, we would like to know about it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is believed to be a reasonable amount for promotional advertising.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I see an item in the details of $30,000 for films. Were they made by the national film board or by a commercial company?


Clarence Decatur Howe: All expenditures on films are made through the national film board.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes, I know, but was the film actually made by the national film board or by a commercial company?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I could not say.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Usually the department
makes a requisition.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am informed that the film was made by the national film board.
<347,404.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1,1,1. Exhibitions, including a contribution of $1,000 to the international bureau of exhibitions and, subject to regulations to be approved by the governor in council, to authorize pro rata refunds to be made to lessees of space at the Canadian international trade fair of rentals moneys received from such lessees determined to be in excess of the expenses incurred by Canada in promoting the Canadian international trade fair, such refunds to be made from the revenue received, $
Alan Cockeram: Is this for the expenses of the trade fair?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Does the minister expect that we shall be able to reimburse ourselves for our expenditures on the trade fair?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. This is the gross expenditure. The income from the fair I think is slightly in excess of the expenditure.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Shall we need this much money?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; unfortunately in government accounts you can receive as much as you like but you still have to appropriate all
you spend.

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James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does the minister think that we have to go on with this nonsensical method for ever?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have tried to change, but I had great objection from other parties in the house. That is the purpose of crown companies.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: One of the purposes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Standards division-
Electricity and gas inspection services, including administration of the Electricity and Fluid Exportation Act, $452,733.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: This is a very large expenditure. I want to understand more about it. To what extent is electricity and gas inspection services a dominion affair, and how does it relate to provincial activities in the same field?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The dominion has the responsibility of inspecting every meter in Canada. The provincial governments rely on the dominion government for that service.* It is a revenue-producing service. The charges cover the cost of the service, but it has been performed by the dominion government for many years and should properly be performed by the dominion government.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Why?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Because if the Ontario hydro is selling electricity direct to a consumer, the consumer is entitled to have some third party say whether the current is properly measured.
Mr. COCIvERAM: The minister says that this is a revenue-producing department. Can he tell us the amount of revenue the department produced last year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; it was $555,209.75.


Alan Cockeram: That goes into the consolidated revenue fund?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
45.?. Weights and measures inspection services, $515,837.
Joseph Warner Murphy: Can the minister tell me .vhether any. members of his staff check the scales used in weighing sugar beets from which sugar is obtained?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, we check all scales. We check the scales used in weighing sugar beets.


Joseph Warner Murphy: Does the department also check the scales of the processing plants?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We check every scale. By law every scale must have a certificate from the Department of Trade and Commerce.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion bureau of statistics-
454. Statistics, including contribution of $2,474 to the Inter-American Statistical Institute, $2,548,973.
Alan Cockeram: May we have some explanation of this amount? How is it arrived at?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is the cost of running the statistics division of the department.


Alan Cockeram: How many employees are there in the department?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The details are on page 259.


Alan Cockeram: There is an amount of $1,204,209 for temporary assistance which is two and a half times the amount for permanents.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If my hon. friend will turn to page 259 he will find every expenditure of the department set out in great detail.


Alan Cockeram: I am asking how many temporary employees there are in the department.	[DOT]


Clarence Decatur Howe: I gave that this morning.


Alan Cockeram: The minister did not give us that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, I did.


Alan Cockeram: Of a total staff of 1,423, 295 are permanent, 1,091 are temporaries in Ottawa, and 37 are temporaries outside of Ottawa.


Mr. BOUCHER:: Will the minister explain why there are so few permanents and so many temporary employees? This seems to be a common complaint. We have too many temporaries employed; in some of the departments the number is far in excess of what it is in others. The minister should give some consideration to that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If we could get the opposition in the house at one time we could explain this thing. We spent an hour on it before lunch. If my hon. friend would get up a little earlier he would get the whole thing. If he will read Hansard he will find the whole story there.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Does the Department of Trade and Commerce report to the bureau of statistics, as an ordinary commercial firm does, the number of employees and the amount of salary paid month by month?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.
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Douglas Gooderham Ross: When the bureau of statistics are making up their figures, is it not possible for them to give the figure month by month, showing how many employees there are in the government of Canada, the number of permanents, and the number of temporaries?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is published every month.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: It is not published every month.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, it is.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I have asked for a return year after year, and it has taken about three months to get it. I have asked for a return as to the individuals employed by the government. If it is published by the bureau, it ought to come through the next day.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If the hon. member will examine the publication of the bureau of statistics he will find that the number of government employees is published every month.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: And the monthly salary of each of the employees as well, and the numbers who are temporary?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. The total salaries are published, not the individual salaries.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I mean the total salary paid out.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is published every month.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: By the different departments? Then from that the people of Canada ought to be able to get an idea of the amounts paid. Does the publication give the number of employees and the amount of salary that was paid to them, say last month?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: And the number of permanent and temporary employees?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It does not give that.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Could that information be given?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am told that the number of temporaries and permanents is also published.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: In what document is it published?


Clarence Decatur Howe: In the civil service statistics.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The minister has stated that very confidently, but I find it difficult to believe that he is right. First of all, let me say I have great respect for the bureau of statistics and for Mr. Marshall in particular. I have found him

most helpful and co-operative. I found to my great surprise that I could not get from him a complete list of the government employees, and he was frank in saying that he could not give it to me. I thought it was a most astonishing thing, and the only explanation I could glean from my conversation with him was that there are a lot of departments that hold out information of their own, and there is no full and readily available statement. I spent a good deal of time trying to find that out. I hope the minister will not regard this as just something that I am bringing up in an offhand way, because it is not.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be very glad to send for the publication, mark it, and send it across to my hon. friend. The reason the question cannot be answered easily is that hon. members ask questions which never coincide with what is actually published. I am told that we publish the numbers of all people regularly employed in the civil service, but not in crown companies or in various branches. We state how many employees are permanent and how many are temporary. We state the total salaries paid during the month. That is published each month. I shall be glad to get the publication and send it to my thon. friends. The questions asked in the house are not as simple as that. Hon. members ask for other data which require compilation.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: If this was merely the result of questions I put down on paper, I would not have the same objection; but what I am talking about is the result of several conversations with Mr. Marshall. The result was we got to the point where he told me the figures were not available. I was not able to get any figures that I could use at the time I wanted them. I am not criticizing Mr. Marshall-quite the contrary.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The minister said that the questions which are asked are not asked in the way in which the figures are kept. The point is that the information which the member asks for is no good to him three months after the question is asked. I asked a question as to the number of employees on such and such a date, say December 31 of last year. The reply I received gave the number to December 15 last year, or whatever date suited them, and did not give the general picture. Like the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario, I have tried time and time again to find out how many employees there are in the government of Canada, how many in the C.B.C., and so on, but I never could find out. I should be glad to have the publication sent to me, too.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Mr. DROPE:: I am not so much concerned with the question whether the employees are permanent or temporary as I am with the possibility of getting the number reduced so that there can be some relief for the taxpayers.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: Are there any statistics in regard to the cost or selling price of electrical power in various parts of Canada, such as Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal, my own town of Amherst, Halifax, and Cape Breton? Some time ago certain areas used to advertise that they had the cheapest power in Canada. The proposal was made a few days ago by the hon. member for Davenport that electrical power be subsidized. Perhaps the minister can tell us whether there is any statistical record of the selling price in different parts of Canada. The hon. member for Davenport the other day made a statement, which was wholeheartedly received in the maritime provinces, with regard to the granting of a concession to the producers of power by subsidizing coal in order that we might be put on a fairly equitable basis with other sections in power production.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The dominion statistician
tells me that the. bureau publishes an index, not of cost, but of cost to the consumer of power in various areas in Canada. The production of power is a matter over which the dominion has no control. It has no policy for subsidizing power in any part of the country.


Percy Chapman Black: Is that a special publication prepared for distribution?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a separate bulletin. The dominion statistician says he will send a copy of it to my hon. friend without delay.


Percy Chapman Black: Thank you.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
J5S. Census of population, $591,411.
Alan Cockeram: Can the minister tell me why in 1948 we should be making payments in connection with a census taken two years ago? Surely there is a better system of keeping accounts than that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It takes a long time to compile the information, which is being printed at present.


Alan Cockeram: To whom would these accounts be payable?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Tire staff engaged in that work, the 1,400 employees the hon. member talked about.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Wheat and grain division-
456. Salaries and other expenses, $44,737. .
Lewis Menary: Many farmers in my district, in the spring of 1947, took flax from the Middlesex flax company to sow, and in payment they were to give this quantity back plus a stated amount for the use of the seed. The government declared a bonus of fifty cents per bushel which they are unable to collect. The amount owing the farmers varies from $75 to $200.


Mr. FAIR:: Can the minister tell me
whether anything is being done to keep the grade of red bobs wheat at No. 1?-because we understand that it is being cut down to No. 3.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am not familiar with that. That grade has come in since I knew something about wheat. I shall be glad to inquire of the board of grain commissioners.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canada Grain Act-
458.	Operation and maintenance, including inspection, weighing, registration, etc., $1,997,864.
Mr. CHARLTON:: On page 262 there is an item, below "temporary assistance", for wages in the sum of $60,000. Can the minister explain that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is for casual help around the grain elevators. There are people who are steadily employed, but in rush periods it is necessary to take on casual help, and the item of $60,000 is provided for the purpose. The hon. member will note that it is a reduction from $150,000 last year.


Alan Cockeram: But there is an increase in temporary assistance of $230,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
459.	Canadian government elevators, including equipment, $727,049.
Edward George McCullough: Are any Canadian government elevators rented to private companies? If so, what are the conditions of rental?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The only one I know of is the government elevator at Port Arthur, Ontario, which is rented to the McCabe Grain Company. I am not familiar with the terms of the lease, but I shall be glad to table it, though I am under the impression that it has been tabled.


Edward George McCullough: What is the $727,000 for? Is it for repairs and new equipment, and what is the relationship between the storage of farmers' wheat under the
Supply-Trade and Commerce

wheat board and the cost of storage there? What is the method of handling wheat for the farmers?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The handling charges and the method of handling are the same as though the government still operated the elevator. The charges for handling wheat at all terminal elevators are the same, whether owned by the government or by the private trade. The reason it was leased to McCabe brothers, as I remember, is that grain firms having country elevators ordinarily attract grain from their elevators to their own terminal, and the government elevator was doing little business because it had no feeders in the country.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian government travel bureaui60. To assist in promoting the tourist business in Canada, $1,038,046.
Agar Rodney Adamson: 
Clarence Decatur Howe: May I send this document across to my hon. friend?


Agar Rodney Adamson: Yes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It will save my reading it. It tells the whole story.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What is the document?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is the annual report of the Department of Trade and Commerce for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1947.


Agar Rodney Adamson: 
Clarence Decatur Howe: One of them was a map indicating the main automobile roads between Canada and the United States.


Alan Cockeram: How much did they cost?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I could not say. Other books published w7ere:	"How to Know Canada";
"Canada's Game Fields"; "Sport Fishing in Canada"; "Canoeing in Canada" and "A Trans-Canada Automobile Tour"-


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That would be good.


Clarence Decatur Howe: -a new brochure entitled "Skiing in Canada" w'hich was prepared and made available for distribution; "Canada Vacations Unlimited" which was received from the printer at the end of the year under review and was distributed; "With Rod and Reel in Canada", another brochure for fishermen; and three moving pictures were made and distributed by the national film board.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What about the $700,000 expenditure for advertising? Was that done through United States publications?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is largely advertising in the United States handled through Cockfield, Brown and Company of Montreal. About $350,000 has been spent already and the balance will be spent in the autumn preparing for next season.


Alan Cockeram: That is all United States funds?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Most of it, yes.


Mr. WEBB:: I do not wish to take up a great deal of time on this matter now, although I feel it is a most important one, especially for the particular area from which I come. I am not criticizing in any way, shape or form. With the staff available, and the facilities they have for handling this large business, as it is at the present time, I think the bureau is doing a good job. In a speech in the house here some time ago it was suggested, I think by the hon. member for Lambton West, that a separate department should be set up. Later on, speaking on the same subject, I myself suggested a commission. I fully realize that this is a big job. I want to pay tribute to Mr. Leo Dolan, director of the travel bureau, who is serving this country well, not only in his operations in this country but in all his travels. I think he is doing a marvellous job for us wherever he goes. Recently I think he did a magnificent job in going to the United States when we were having a little bit of difficulty with our exchange problem, and when we were being threatened with a boycott of money coming into Canada. I followed that matter up, and I think Mr. Dolan did a grand job there. He was able to overcome many difficulties.

Supply-Trade and Commerce
However, I still have a strong feeling that with the amount of work which comes under the Department of Trade and Commerce this is a big item to come under its jurisdiction, unless there could be some way of setting up a commission or at least a commissioner. 11 Mr. Dolan carried with him a title similar to that of deputy minister, I think it would be of great advantage to him in approaching the people of other countries, and would pay off well in Canada. Not only that, but it would give him an approach when meeting provincial and other governments.
Coming back to the actual department, it would seem to me, that if he were in a position of more power to carry this message to the people about this important business, it would be something worthwhile to this country. I make that as a constructive suggestion, and not in any other way. Is the department giving any consideration to methods whereby this great industry of ours will be taken care of, by possibly giving it more stress and placing it in a position of greater importance than it has occupied in the past?
I have gone into this matter of advertising. I looked up all the different magazines and the different methods of advertising our country and I do not know that I have so much criticism with regard to that matter. But I make the suggestion that a personal contact, either through Mr. Dolan or an assistant to him, in other countries, would be worth a good deal. I believe one personal contact with a group of businessmen in those respective communities is worth a great deal more than advertising that will cost considerably more money. I feel that there is nothing like personal contact when it comes to advertising our goods. Therefore I would make that suggestion; and I should like to have the minister, if he will, comment on it at this time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The activities of the federal government in the field of tourism, as my hon. friend will appreciate, are confined to only one agency, which is intended to be a coordinating one and to supplement the work being done by the nine provinces, whose expenditures run into considerably more money in the aggregate than is spent by the federal government. We feel that Mr. Dolan is running a most aggressive department. We think he is drawing tourists to Canada. It will be the constant effort of the department to strengthen the branch.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: First of all, I should like to commend the department, and Mr. Dolan as well, for the work that has been done. One of the things that would help the tourist traffic in Canada more than anything else,
especially in my own city, is in connection with the increase in the limit to $400 in the amount of goods a United States person may take back with him. I might point out to the minister that the tourist will not buy in Canada fine luggage and things of that kind that they can take back, because they will not pay the 25 per cent excise tax. If the government will remove that tax on things of that kind, they will increase the tourist trade. They would do more good by taking many of these taxes off, which are not necessary now anyway, than by any other method I know of, and their removal would certainly help the tourist trade.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I might as well set my hon. friend right. There is no excise tax on goods bought in Canada for export.


Joseph Warner Murphy: But people take them back, individually.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Do they get a refund of the excise tax when they take them back?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They have it delivered to them.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I was not referring to having it delivered.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is cheaper to do it the other way.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: They want to take it with them.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I am sure hon. members would like to have some expression from the minister respecting the repeated suggestions since 1945 by those who are interested in the tourist industry. Those suggestions have varied from that of having a separate ministry to having a commission which would work in co-operation with the provinces and municipalities, and also the suggestion to have a deputy minister in charge of the tourist industry.
We know that in Ontario they have a new department for that purpose, and I believe in Quebec the tourist industry is under the supervision of the premier. From time to time it has been pointed out in the house by hon. members on both sides that it is important to develop this industry. I have suggested repeatedly that a separate ministry be considered. Before I proceed further with my questions, would the minister be prepared to advise the committee whether or not any change is contemplated or has been under consideration? After he has completed what he has to say, I should like to continue.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think the government ever considered appointing a minister for tourist traffic. It seems to me that the overhead of the ministry might be more than the expenditures. We now have a tourist branch, and the head of that branch has all the authority he requires. We have recently given him a senior assistant, the purpose being to free him to do more travelling in countries which are the source of our tourist business. So far as I know, he has no difficulty in working with other provinces of the dominion. I have attended conferences at which he has presided, and it seems to me that his position there is quite assured. I cannot imagine any step which would make his position any stronger. If hon. members think the best executive organization is a commission, they are entitled to their opinion. I have never shared that view. I believe a director is much more efficient, so far as organizing the tourist industry is concerned.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I appreciate the minister's frankness. I am wondering, however, if the government appreciates the possibilities of the tourist industry. Figures concerning the industry are quite revealing when one remembers that the administration of it is not on a departmental level. For that reason I have maintained that it is entitled to more consideration than it has been given. We know that in some countries the tourist industry is a large one. I am told that in Switzerland it runs to about a billion dollars a year, and we know that in the United States it is much greater than the difference between the population of the United States and that of Canada would indicate.
We are not getting what we can get of United States money, which we need so badly. It has been only within the last two or three years that the tourist industry has been discussed with the provinces, and no doubt some good has come from those discussions. I was not suggesting that the director be appointed a deputy minister. I was .more concerned with some change which would increase our tourist industry to the point which I think this country should have.
Perhaps I might illustrate what I have in mind. Under the present set-up, we shall suppose a representation is made to develop the tourist industry. Let us suppose that it is recommended that a boat basin or well be cleaned out on a stream emptying into lake Huron. The only reason for clearing the sand bar would be to permit yachts and pleasure craft coming in from Detroit. If they were able to use the harbour they would probably spend two or three hundred thousand dollars a year in that area. Would representations

be made through his department, if any association wished to undertake that work so as to bring United States dollars to this country?


Clarence Decatur Howe: An application of that kind would be made to the Department of Public Works, although it might come through the director of the tourist industry. As my hon. friend knows, the Department of Public Works is charged with the responsibility of developing harbours.
However, I do not think the difficulty in Canada is in getting the numbers of tourists, because the numbers are satisfactory. Our difficulty is that we have not the resorts or other attractions which would induce the tourist to stay here to spend his money in Canada. When we were free to travel to the United States, although our numbers were small when compared with the numbers who came from the United States to Canada, our total expenditures in the United States for holiday purposes were about half the total expenditure by United States tourists in Canada. I agree with the hon. member that further developments should be made in connection with tourist accommodation and tourist attractions.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I certainly agree with what the minister says with respect to accommodation, or lack of it, for United States tourists. No language could be too strong to impress upon those who cater to the tourists that they must do their part to see that good food and proper lodging are accorded. I believe that in the last fifteen years there has not been $100,000 spent for tourist accommodation all the way from Windsor to Ottawa; yet they clamour for tourists. I would take this opportunity to say to those who are interested in the promotion of the tourist industry, by way of giving accommodation, that they are not doing their share. I have in mind particularly hotels and restaurants, and other facilities for tourist accommodation.
What plans has the government further to integrate this work with the work of the provinces and municipalities in the promotion of this industry? Then, has the government considered developing the industry by offering accommodation in the nature of fields for the landing of aircraft throughout the various areas in Canada; and what further plans has the government with respect to the Trans-Canada highway?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My. hon. friend has covered a good deal of territory. For the last two years we have held an interprovincial conference for the discussion of the tourist traffic.

Supply-Trade and Commerce
At that conference the plans of all the provinces, the transportation, bus and steamship companies are laid on the table. It is presided over by the head of the federal bureau. Plans are co-ordinated, and suggestions are made wherever they can be strengthened. So far as I know, there is a continuous effort to improve our tourist industry in Canada, and to strengthen it.


Joseph Warner Murphy: Has the department under consideration any plan for the exchange of films with the United States? It occurred to me that perhaps through some form of barter we could have our films shown in the United States with a view to increasing our tourist industry. Would it be possible for the minister's department to make arrangements with the film industry so that our films could be shown in the United States?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have been doing that during the past few months and have had spectacular results. A great number of shorts have been made in Canada about Canada and circulated to every movie house in the United States. Records descriptive of Canada have been circulated' through all the radio stations in the United States, and I am told by those who have visited there that they are being frequently used. An active promotion program is being carried on under the auspices of the moving-picture industry. I am told that, as a result of the present campaign, two full-length movies will be made in Ontario during the current year.


Joseph Warner Murphy: Some few years ago
several writers visited Ontario, as a result of which a great deal of publicity was obtained. I recall an article by Rex Beach in the Saturday Evening Post. I was wondering if the department had any such plan under consideration. Then I was wondering what plans the department has to further this industry by way of lecturers and speakers in the United States.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This month, in co-operation with the province of Ontario, we are entertaining a group of writers in Ottawa. We have circulated the titles of -books which we think would be appropriate for movies based on Canada. It was a considerable list of most attractive titles. I do not know the value of lectures because I never attend them myself, but perhaps some people do. We have no plans for lecturers.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Sometimes we have them here.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I understand that last year the director of the travel bureau made some
thirty-five appearances on the other side, speaking to service clubs and other organizations. I think the senior officials of the department, including the director of the travel bureau, could serve a most useful purpose by speaking to service clubs and other organizations on the other side. It should be done on a planned basis, so that a great area could be covered. Other efforts like sportsmen's shows and exhibits could be co-ordinated. I really think the amount allocated for the promotion of the tourist industry is small compared with what could really be developed if it were carried on in an aggressive manner.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I have never been able to understand the program and policies of the travel bureau. I appreciate the great work they are doing, but I am of the opinion that there is considerable overlapping in some cases, as I shall explain later, and a conspiracy of silence in other cases.
Some years ago I took up the question of tourist publicity for the district which I have the honour to represent, with a prominent official of the Canadian Pacific. I said to him, "You do not advertise the Okanagan lake; you do not advertise your steamer service; you do not advertise your other services". He admitted it, and then he said, "I'll tell you the reason why. We like to keep people moving along the main line from one big hotel to another. If we advertise your little steamship services it would divert people going from Banff to the coast."
It would almost appear that the dominion government advertising is coincidental with Canadian Pacific advertising. These smaller places with smaller hotels and tourist camps offer excellent facilities for large numbers of people who would be willing to go to the less known places. I can hardly believe that this is accidental. It seems to me that the advertising of the dominion government travel bureau and that of the Canadian Pacific indicates a common policy to advertise in such a way that the large hotels will be filled up and people kept on the main lines of the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian National. Hundreds of these smaller and more attractive hotels and tourist resorts are being overlooked. I should like to know upon what basis the travel bureau advertises, in the United States, tourist facilities in Canada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The federal government can do only a national job. It invites people to come to Canada; not to any part of Canada, but just to come to Canada. It may show the attractions of various parts of Canada,
510G
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but it does not say, "Come to Georgian Bay," or "Come to Quebec City" It does not say, "Come to the Canadian Pacific Hotel at Banff". It says, "Come to Canada". There are other agencies here which do that type of work, the provinces and the transportation companies. They advertise particular resorts and travel between particular points.
I think my hon. friend will appreciate that that is not a job for the dominion government. We simply advertise Canada as a whole. I suggest that the province of British Columbia would be the logical agency to advertise the beauties of Okanagan lake which I enjoyed immensely on my recent visit, even though my purpose in going there was not accomplished.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The minister has said that the job of the travel bureau is a national job. When the director receives an inquiry from someone in the United States, does he write that person and ask if there is any particular section he would like to come to?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. If a person indicates an interest in a certain, section, full information about that section is given, either by means of dominion government literature or by means of provincial government literature. The province would be advised that such and such a tourist was interested in such and such a resort. There is a complete exchange of information. The proper agency would reply and give the information. We simply do a national job which is intended to be in the interests of every part of Canada.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The minister says the province would be notified that a person wanted to go there, and in turn they would write to that person. Do you also take it up with any local agency, with a chamber of commerce or board of trade? I come from the Kawartha lake section. Would you take it up with the chamber of commerce at Peterborough or the director of tourist publicity?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We notify the province and the province would notify the particular city. The local situation is a provincial responsibility. It might interest my hon. friend to know that the bureau ships out two tons of mail daily, bandies from three thousand to six thousand inquiries daily and has serviced 147,391 inquiries from January to May, 1948.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: After looking at some of the exhibits put on by the dominion government-I mentioned this to the director- I believe it would add colour if the Department of Justice would allow one or two mounties with their red coats to accompany the exhibit to the United States. There is no

doubt about it, they are dull. They try to put on a good show, but I believe if they had a mountie on the job all the time it would help. Years ago they used to have mounties. Away back in 1900 or 1901 the Trent waterway development association was able to induce the dominion government to help them put on an exhibit in Grand Central Palace in New York city. We managed to get mounties to go with that. That exhibit was put on for about five years. I would like the minister to comment on the sending of mounties along with exhibits to the United States.
Mention was made of insufficient hotel accommodation, and that complaint is perfectly justified. Some of these hotels are not really fit for tourists to go into. That is why the Ontario government is now, last year and this, having all these tourist resorts, cabins and restaurants inspected to see that they are kept clean. If they are not, the owners are told to clean them up, and if they do not, their licence is cancelled.
Has the director received any complaints from fish and game associations in regard to people going up to James bay and shooting ducks and geese from planes? United States tourists have complained to me about that matter.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The complaints ordinarily go to the fish and game departments of the provinces. We have had complaints, and the air regulations people have taken action.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They have taken action recently?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What about the mounties?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is a matter for the Department of Justice. That staff is recruited for the protection of 'Canada, and during the war it was not possible to divert members of the staff. Perhaps now it will be possible again. I will draw the views of the committee to the attention of the Minister of Justice.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I think the director will agree that it is certainly something that should be done.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is certainly a great advertisement for Canada.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The minister said that the 25 per cent tax was not paid by people from the United States on goods they sent home, but they have all the nuisance of going through customs, and a great many visitors do not know that they can get these goods tax-free for shipment home. I suggest to the minister that it might be wise to go through the list of articles to which the 25

Supply-Trade and Commerce
per cent tax applies with a view to eliminating the tax. I think the results would be more worthwhile to Canada than anything brought in by the tax.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The word "co-ordinate" nearly always frightens me. It nearly always means someone who is put on to help other people work together who probably would work better without a co-ordinator. I am not saying that is true here, because the minister has given us evidence that some real co-ordination is going on. Nevertheless do not let us fool ourselves. As soon as you set up a little kingdom, the king of that kingdom has one great desire in mind, to extend it. He would have to be superhuman if he had not that desire. Therefore I would like to ask a little more about this co-ordination. This has become something quite beyond co-ordination. In the first place, it is spending a lot of money itself. In the second place, it is evidently inviting large numbers of inquiries to be directed to itself. That is not co-ordination. That is setting up a little kingdom of its own. I am not saying that can be avoided. I am only putting it to the minister. It seems to me unfortunate that the inquiries should come in here, then, I presume, be allocated to the provinces, and then be re-allocated to them. I am not wanting to crab this thing because by and large I think a good job is being done, but does the minister not think there is a real danger of allowing this branch to grow up and up and having inquiries directed to itself? Do those inquiries need 'to come here? Should they not in the first instance be directed to where they are to be acted on?
Another thing; on'e of the finest ways of wasting money, if one does not watch it, is to give a lot of money to an advertising agency to spend. They will spend it-leave that to them. But whether that advertising produces results commensurate with the expenditure is a question. My query is whether that kind of advertising is anything like as good as money spent on personal contacts.
The minister spoke about publications brought out by the department-"Skiing in Canada", "Rod and Reel". It seems to me that these are a natural thing for a central body to handle, because they deal with conditions across the country. But I would like to hear the minister say a word more on coordination, which frightens me so much. Mr. Dolan is a sensible man, so far as I know, who would be able to get people to work together. The minister spoke of having meetings with the provinces. I would like to know whether he is satisfied that this co-ordination is real co-ordination and is not creating a new
department here which is doing a lot of work that is just a duplication of what ought to be done in the provinces.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have been associated with this bureau for quite a few years; it used to be in the Department of Transport. Care is taken that there is no overlapping. Our interprovincial relations are exceedingly good in this matter. This is one field of endeavour where the provinces work very closely with the dominion. Through co-ordination a lot of duplicate work is avoided. Certain work is allotted to the federal field, other work to the provinces, and still other work to the railways and bus companies, which are also large advertisers in other countries. All this advertising is co-ordinated. You will seldom pick up a magazine and see an obvious duplication of advertising from Canada, which I think is a tribute to the work of the federal bureau. By and large it is doing a good job, and a better job each year, in avoiding duplication in the field of advertising.
My hon. friend asks whether I think advertising is good. I have not the faintest idea. Some people ask if movie publicity is good. I do not know. But most great enterprises do a great deal of advertising and must think it is good. I would think the advertising we do in United States publications is about the right kind of advertising, judging by the standards of other great enterprises.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What about having a large number of inquiries directed here which have to be re-routed to the provinces?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is not a matter of directing them here. The advertising put out by the bureau carries the stamp of the federal bureau; the advertising put out by the provinces carries the stamp of the provinces; the advertising put out by the railroads carries the stamp of the railroads. The bureau is a clearing house. If people inquire of the federal government about fishing in Nova Scotia we would not want to say: We know nothing about it. The bureau acts as a universal clearing house to get the inquiries into the right channels.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would it mar the appearance of the advertisements if they showed the various provincial offices to which inquiries could be directed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think that would hardly be feasible. I think you must have a clearing house, and the present system I think works fairly well.


George Robert Webb: I think it is pretty well agreed that we should have more and better tourist
Supply-Trade and Commerce

accommodation. I have been approached by possibly a hundred good clean-cut returned boys who want to go into the tourist business and build cottages of some description to take care of visitors to Canada. The difficulty is they have no funds. They do not want the money given to them particularly, but they want to borrow it. Has the department ever given any consideration to setting up some sort of trust fund or mortgage board of some description through which assistance might be given these boys who have a desire to go into that business in Canada? If that were done we might build up something which might be worthwhile.


Clarence Decatur Howe: A good deal of thought has been given to it. The director of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation developed quite a plan, and it is being studied now by the Bank of Canada and by the government. I do not say that it will be put into force next year. It probably requires more working over. It is a fairly comprehensive plan of financing tourist establishments in selected areas. It is quite a big plan. As my hon. friend will appreciate, it takes a good deal of money. It is not a thing to be jumped into immediately, but it is certainly worthy of the consideration it is receiving.


George Robert Webb: It is receiving consideration?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Some of us may have wondered why, after all the portfolios he has occupied, the minister was selected to be Minister of Trade and Commerce. This afternoon I think we know why, because he has shown that he is the most versatile man in the government. He has answered questions about financing of soldiers, the mounted police, and so on.
In examining this item, I find there is one thing we have overlooked. I do not know whether the government is overlooking it, but in our discussions I believe we have overlooked assistance toward bringing tourist business to Canada. The tourist business in Canada is tremendous. I think the department, and I know the various governmental services in the provinces, are bidding for the tourist traffic. A very good job is being done in that regard. I am inclined to agree with the hon. member for Leeds that we are just about taxed to our capacity as far as accommodation is concerned. We have various travel associations. I have been associated with the Blue Water Highway Association and the Huronic Historic Sites Association, which embraces that area from Orillia to Barrie, Midland and Owen Sound, which is considered to be the one place where civilization in this country began.

I want to put on the record a few figures which I thought would be of interest to the committee with regard to what tourist travel really means. I am going to refer to the Col-lingwood area. I could select the city of Owen Sound, the scenic city of Canada, where the atmosphere is so invigorating and the scenery so beautiful; but for fear of being accused of boosting my own home town and constituency, I shall take the neighbouring town, Colling-wood. The report I have is for the year 1946, when we had a survey made at Wasaga beach. It is not as up to date as I should like to have it. We have not the figures for 1947. Wasaga beach has a population of around 300 persons, I would say. In eight weeks in 1946 they had a daily average of 55,000 persons. Twenty-five per cent were citizens of the United States. Therefore seventy-five per cent of our own people were patronizing that beach.
We have been seeking to encourage our farmers to believe that the tourist business means as much to them as it does to the businessman. We have encouraged them to invest their funds in tourist associations and to assist in promoting the tourist trade. I shall now give figures to show the amount of food that was consumed and produced on farms adjacent to Wasaga beach in 1946: poultry, 434,840 pounds; butter, 68,000 pounds; eggs, 536,925 dozen; meat, 2,202,000 pounds; vegetables, raw, 4,800,000 pounds; and milk, 186,000 gallons.
In a discussion of the tourist business we hear a lot about United States tourists. We are certainly glad to have the United States tourists; probably we are happier now than ever before because of our exchange situation. It means a great deal to have this tremendous export business, .so to speak, of the goods consumed in our own country. I leave that thought with the minister. I am mot suggesting for one moment that the government have not had that thought in mind, but the development of our interprovincial and inter-community tourist travel is very important. Generally speaking, however, when we compare the United States tourists who come to Canada, with the vast numbers of our own people who spend their winters in the south in the more moderate climate, I do not know how much we are ahead of the game in the year; but I do know that, in the matter of putting money into circulation, the encouragement of travel gives opportunities and advantages to see our own country, which, after all, so few Canadians know. It affords opportunity for travel in Canada, and that is the one trait we should seek to develop, because we have much in common. Let us have as much of the other traffic from outside our country as we can attract, but let us seek to provide suitable

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accommodation for those who are visiting us, so that they will go away with some appreciation of the holiday they have had.
We have certainly a lack of modern accommodation. The province of Ontario is now giving consideration to the inspection of tourist homes, which is all to the good. I am one of those who would like to congratulate and compliment Mr. Leo Dolan. I have had many long years of association with him indirectly, and I appreciate very much the work he is doing. I am glad to see this sum in the estimates, and I hope it will be well spent for the general benefit of the tourist traffic in Canada.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I should just like to say this on the question I asked on this item. The figures I asked for are not contained in the annual report of the Department of Trade and Commerce. It is pertinent, because what I am trying to find is the behaviour pattern of the United States tourist when he comes to Canada. It has been said generally that the United States tourist comes to Canada and buys a hot dog and that the Canadian, tourist goes to the United States and wants a cabana at S40 a day, or he spends six weeks in a de luxe hotel in Florida. What I should like to find out is this. How many United States tourists come to Canada? What do they spend? How many spend three days or a week in Canada? What do they do particularly when they are here? In other words, what I should like to have is a breakdown of the value of the tourist trade to us in Canada.
I have heard it said that the tourist trade is worth $300 million to Canada in a year. I have also heard that that is an over-estimate. We should have an analysis of the tourist trade so that we can encourage it where it is most valuable. I make one suggestion. The hon. member for Calgary West has made this suggestion before. I refer to the Banff and Jasper national parks, and particularly to the development of those parks in the winter. There are three million people in the United States who ski. According to the best information I can get, the average expenditure is at least $100. There is a traffic of $300 million in skiing alone. Something should be done in the national parks, lake Louise, and Banff, so that we would end up by having these great hotels open in the winter as well as in the summer. There is a tremendous field out there. I should like to have some idea of how many United States tourists come in for two days or three days, and where they go and what their expenditures are. I mention again the development of the Rockies in the winter, because the skiing season is just double the summer season. The people who come to
visit us in the winter are not the 24-hour tourists; they are people who come and spend a week or two weeks. On the whole they are much more valuable to us. I wonder whether the department has a breakdown of these figures or whether they can be obtained.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am advised that a study of that kind is published each year by the bureau of statistics, showing the effect of the tourist traffic on the international balance of payments. I have asked the director to send a copy to my hon. friend today, so that he can have the latest information.


Agar Rodney Adamson: There is no study of the behaviour pattern of the tourist when he gets here?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; it covers that.


Agar Rodney Adamson: That would be most valuable. It would show the type of tourist coming in, the type who spends a week or a couple of weeks.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will send a copy to my hon. friend.


Percy Chapman Black: I join with others who have commended the minister for the expansion of the department, and also in their expressions of appreciation of the headway made by the tourist bureau. Federal concern in this whole subject originated with Senator Dennis of Nova Scotia, who brought the matter before the senate, where a committee was set up of which he was chairman, and a policy was enunciated. The tourist bureau has developed from these beginnings into the present Dominion Government Travel Bureau, which is its present full name.
Reference has been made to other parts of Canada, but in this discussion I have not heard anyone refer to the maritime provinces, and that is a serious neglect, in view of the fact that the present tourist bureau in Canada had its origin in Nova Scotia with Senator Dennis, and the director, Mr. Dolan, is also from Nova Scotia; yet the maritime provinces have not been mentioned.
I do not believe there is a section of Canada that has greater attractions for the tourist than our provinces by the sea. Every part of the maritimes has its particular attractions. The visitor will find a great deal of enjoyment, health and hospitality in the Annapolis valley, the south shore, unequalled scenic beauty of Cape Breton island-I do not think it can be equalled on the continent of North America-along the Northumberland straits, in the county of Cumberland, and Prince Edward Island with our warm sea water and clear invigorating air. We hear of
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millions, indeed tens of millions of dollars being spent in the development of tourist resorts in the state of Maine, but there is no such expenditure in the maritime provinces where we have equal or greater attractions.
The minister should make a special effort to induce more people from central Canada to visit the maritimes, thus saving Canadian dollars. Large numbers go there now, and once they familiarize themselves with the attractions and the healthful surroundings, many decide to establish summer homes there. For every one that goes there now, there should be hundreds. No part of the tourist business holds out greater possibilities for development than the maritimes

Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick.
I commend the minister for the development of this branch. I know how busy the director is at this season. I picked up my home paper today before coming into the chamber, and I see that a special invitation has been extended to Mr. Dolan to address the board of trade of Amherst, but he replied that he was unable to do so because he was too busy serving the people in central Canada. He could not give special attention to our part of Canada. Perhaps I am not quoting him correctly, but I think that is, in effect, his reply. At any rate, I am pleased to support this appropriation.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I support the request made by my hon. friend (Mr. Adamson) for a breakdown of the amount involved in the tourist industry, and I would ask the minister to separate it into provinces and seasons.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am not sure what the breakdown is; I have not seen it. Such as it is, however, I will have it sent to you.


Joseph Warner Murphy: Another suggestion I have to make, and I offer it in the belief that it will produce good results, is that when the next session opens iwe should set up a House of Commons committee on the tourist industry. I know a committee of this kind has been functioning elsewhere, but I am confident that a committee of the House of Commons, representative of all the provinces, would make a great contribution to the promotion of the tourist industry.


Agar Rodney Adamson: If the tourist industry is worth $300 million a year, it is one of the first two or three industries in Canada, and an analysis should be made showing how the money comes in.


Clarence Gillis: I, too, am pleased to join with the hon. member for Cumberland and others in support of this vote. There are two things

I would say. First I wish to compliment the director on his activities. His work is excellent, and that is to be expected; he is a mari-timer, full of energy. He is one of those whom we had to export to promote national affairs. An hon. member suggested that the director might be made a deputy minister. I do not think that is really intended; but in this department, as in all departments of government, the work of those who direct matters in the field is to a large extent restricted by red tape. There are many things that could and should be done quickly; but it is necessary for the field workers, who have the actual job of administration, to go back to the deputy minister and finally to the minister, and by the time certain orders and regulations that are called for have been got through to the minister, the tourist season is over.
I would suggest that the person who directs the tourist bureau should be given considerable latitude and authority to carry out the work, without the necessity of going back and checking and rechecking and getting orders, and all that kind of thing.
There is one point I would make in regard to promoting the tourist industry of the maritime provinces, and that is with particular reference to my own end of the country, Cape Breton island. The tourists who come to that part of the country are not in the ordinary category of tourists. They axe largely people who migrated from that part of the country to the United States and particularly to the New England states. There are thousands of them, and these people would like to come back, but one thing that militates against a larger number returning to that part of the country is the condition of the secondary roads leading into certain sections. Did it ever occur to the minister to inaugurate a direct plane service from that airport in Sydney to Boston or other airports in the New England states?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have that now.


Clarence Gillis: A direct flight from Sydney?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It stops at Halifax.


Clarence Gillis: Yes, on a roundabout course. It costs a great deal more money. That is something like getting from Ottawa-


Clarence Decatur Howe: It does not cost more money.


Clarence Gillis: Yes, it goes to Halifax and Moncton; and you have to roam all over the country and pay a great deal more money in order to get to that destination. I am suggesting a direct flight which would cut the time down considerably as well as the expense. Thousands more people would be

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brought in if that kind of service were established in place of what we have at the present time.
The tourist industry in Nova Scotia is one of our major ones today. Just recently I saw a report by the minister of industry of Nova Scotia, and the amount of money left by United States tourists in Nova Scotia staggered me. I never thought it ran into the figures shown in the report. If that report is true for that section of the country, I think it is true for nearly all of Canada. This would be one of the greatest industries assisting in the cutting down of our shortage of United States dollars, if we could bring more people in and have them spend their money here. I merely rose to make the suggestion of a direct plane service between that Sydney station and eastern United States stations, because I think it would pay for itself.
In the second place, I wanted to say that I appreciated the work done by the director. I have had considerable contact with him. He is active and always on the job. The field workers in all departments such as this one should have a great deal more authority than they have. If the line of red tape back through government, which is necessary under the present arrangements, were cut considerably and if a little more authority were given to these workers, I believe they could do a better job in promoting the industry.


Mr. McLURE:: I wish to solicit the support of the minister to the end that he may use his influence with his colleagues in the other departments. I have reference to the final road leading to our national park, which is our drawing card for tourists in Prince Edward Island. A short distance of road- about three-quarters of a mile-in the park area is under dispute. The dominion government do not wish to take it over; yet they claim they own it. The provincial government will not repair it. Between the two of them, the road has really become a mud-hole for about a mile over which tourists must travel in order to get down to the beach and also to get to the finest golf links, they say, in Canada.
One other thing we have appreciated in the advertising in the last couple of years is the fact that Prince Edward Island is now on most of the maps I have seen. Prior to two years ago, we were put on about once in every ten years.


Gordon Graydon: The hon. member advertises the province every day in the house.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: However, this improvement is probably due to the fact that advertising
experts have found that there is in Prince Edward Island a tourist resort equal to any. Now we are getting a better return from the advertising. As I mentioned before, until last year we could not get proper accommodation for most of the tourists who came there. But this year I think we shall be able to take care of twice as many tourists as we have taken care of in any other season. We are proud to say that, through good advertising and through having a good place to which to come, I understand that the Governor General of Canada is to vacation in our province this summer. We hope that this will be one of the finest advertisements we have ever had for the tourist business in Prince Edward Island.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I may say that I have a special interest in that bit of road. In my house I have a handsome piece of plate awarded to the victor of the tournament held at the opening of that golf course, and I will ask my colleagues to give consideration to this matter.


Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):: I merely rise, Mr. Chairman, so that the public will know that there is someone from Alberta here.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If this item could be considered carried, I should be glad. It is necessary for me to leave now in order to catch a plane, and I shall turn over the responsibility to my colleague, the Minister of National Health and Welfare.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
245. Departmental administration, $623,428.
Mr. FLEMING:: I have some remarks to make on this item, Mr. Chairman; but at the outset I should like you to give some indication to the committee, for its guidance, as to the extent to which members may discuss, under this section, the subject matter of additional grants to assist the construction of hospitals, and other health matters proposed by the Prime Minister in his statement in the house about a month ago. The Prime Minister at that time indicated that supplementary appropriations would be introduced in due course to deal with that matter. I think it would be of assistance to all the members of the committee, Mr. Chairman, if you would indicate at the outset if that matter may be discussed.


The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:: No. I would have to say immediately that it would not be in order to discuss it under this item.

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Paul Joseph James Martin: May I say one word in that connection. I had a chance of informally discussing this matter with several members of the house, including the hon. gentleman who has just spoken. I suggested that, as there would naturally be great interest in the details of the program announced by the Prime Minister, and that, as the supplementary estimates in connection with that program are not yet before the house, we might avoid duplication of discussion if we confined the general discussion in connection with this department to the moment when we have before us the supplementary estimates, which would give ample opportunity for a wider discussion and thereby possibly avoid discussing the same matter twice. I am in the hands of the committee in the matter, but I understood from the conversation I had with other hon. members that such procedure would likely be in accord with their views and wishes in the matter.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I just say that if a ruling is made to that effect, which will be binding on the committee, it will, I am sure, be entirely satisfactory to all of us. We all wish to be graded by the same ruling in this matter. It is of the highest importance. If you make that ruling, Mr. Chairman, we will adhere loyally to it. We understand, however, that when the supplementary appropriations are brought down, they will be brought down at a time that will afford an ample opportunity lor discussion of this matter.
In other years it will be recalled that in the discussion of the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare much has been said about the kind of program members have felt should be brought in. If we leave over that kind of discussion for the supplementary appropriations, then I suggest it is most important that the government allow ample opportunity for it, and that it should bring in the supplementary appropriations at a time which will give hon. members ample opportunity for discussion. I suggest that we should not be caught at the last moment in a rush which may lead to glossing over a matter of such great importance. Would you give a ruling, Mr. Chairman?


William Henry Golding: I shall have to rule that it would not be in order to discuss matters which will be brought in later with the supplementary estimates. We shall have to confine our remarks to the item now under discussion.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are some remarks of a general nature I
[The Deputy Chairman.]
should like to make respecting the estimates of this department.
We have before us increased estimates for the fiscal year. The estimates for the new fiscal year amount to $345,660,705, whereas those of the previous year were $319,990,101, showing that the department is budgeting this year for an increased expenditure of $25,670,604. This department is now the second greatest spending department among all the departments of government, its expenditures being exceeded only by the Department of Finance, and in that instance only because of the charges paid annually through that department on the national debt.
For those who like to compare expenditures on these vitally important subjects of health and welfare with expenditures on other matters of essential importance, I mention in passing that the expenditures this year for the Department of National Defence are $232,408,239.95, and that the expenditures this year for the Department of National Health and Welfare will therefore exceed those of the Department of National Defence by about $113 million. When the supplementary estimates are introduced, as forecast by the Prime Minister some weeks ago, we may expect further substantially increased expenditures in this department, marking it as the department through which there is the greatest expenditure of funds for services in the Dominion of Canada.
These figures demonstrate the importance of the department and the importance of the task upon which the committee is now engaged in reviewing the estimates. I make no apology for alluding at this point to a matter to which I have referred in previous sessions because, unhappily, this is about the only opportunity one has of adverting to it.
I have had on the order paper for the last four sessions the following resolution:
That, in the opinion of this house, standing order G3 be amended by adding after subsection 1: (m) on public health, welfare, social security and housing to consist of thirty-five members, ten of whom shall constitute a quorum.
This proposal is for the establishment of a standing committee on health, welfare, social security and housing. We have a great many committees of the house, some of which function actively, and some of which do not. But we have not yet, even in this year of 1948, established a committee charged with the responsibility of reviewing matters of the kind to which I have referred. I believe most members, when confronted with those matters, would frankly concede them to be of the highest importance. Great advantages would accrue to the house from the appoint-

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ment of a standing committee on health, welfare, social security and housing. The value of such a committee would be demonstrated not alone in the matter of reviewing estimates, although at a time like this I suggest its value would be clearly demonstrated. I am thinking more of the duty placed upon hon. members to inform themselves of all aspects of these important matters.
We gather information from reports-which often are stale by the time they reach us. We try to keep ourselves informed through the press and other publications. Hon. members, however, have not an opportunity of questioning officials of the department at first hand, a procedure which I conceive to be one which would bring great benefit to the House of Commons by way of obtaining additional information and making the house better informed as to the functions of the department. Such a committee would assist the house greatly in determining where money can wisely be spent for purposes of health and welfare, or where it might be more wisely spent than it is at the present time. It would give an opportunity, furthermore, for the proper analysis of proposals submitted by various interested organizations such as medical and welfare groups, those who are making a study of housing problems, and labour organizations which have done much in giving assistance and oftentimes a lead in the approach to social problems.
A committee of the house could go into matters of that kind in a really useful and efficient manner, at first hand. Present procedure denies us that opportunity. We can put our questions to the minister. He will answer certain questions; but we do not have firsthand contact with the information in the minds of the officials.
I believe the minister has sympathy for this proposal. I would urge upon him to press it, and to the limit of his resources to endeavour to bring about an amendment of the rules of the house which would permit the appointment of such a committee. It seems to me utterly useless for a private member to place on the order paper a resolution in which he seeks to amend the rules, even where those rules appear to be archaic. As I have pointed out, my resolution has been on the order paper for four sessions; and at the rate we are going I suppose it will be there for fifty years before it will ever be reached. But the government has it in its power to advance proposals of the kind, if it wishes to take the subject in hand. I urge upon the minister that he regard this not only as an opportunity, but as a duty.
When we come to a review of the estimates we see at once the usefulness of such a committee. I do not wish to thresh old straw, because I have spoken on this subject before.
I must say, however, that I believe the house approaches its task of reviewing estimates inadequately equipped for the purpose. That inadequate equipment is not the fault of members of the house, nor do I think it is altogether the fault of the government. I do say wre must revise our procedure with a view to improving its efficiency. No business organization in the country would approach the problem of budgeting for its fiscal needs in the ensuing year without knowing precisely what was expended in the previous one.
In the present instance we are dealing with the expenditure of about a third of a billion dollars, but we have not before us the expenditures made by the department last year. We have to assist us in our comparisons only the appropriations which were voted last year. We do not know in the case of any item to what extent the appropriation is exhausted. We do not know to what extent the appropriation proved to be more than was required. The committee is simply working at least in the dusk, if not in the dark, in proceeding with its budgetary task on that basis. What the committee ought to have before it, before it ever settles down to this task, is the full detail of last year's expenditures under these items.
So that I may put myself on a common footing with the minister, at this point I am going to ask him to give to the committee when he speaks-this will save the time of the committee of the whole-details of the expenditures made last year in connection with every item appearing on pages 33 and 34 of the estimates. I asked that last year, but the minister chose not to give it and I was com' pelled to ask for the previous year's expenditure on each item as it was reached. In order to save time, I hope that this year the minister will give the committee a statement in advance showing the actual expenditure under each item. I know that will save time, because I for one intend to make it my business to find out the actual expenditure last year on each item. In the external affairs committee where we were reviewing the estimates of the Department of External Affairs, we were furnished, before we began our task, with detailed expenditures under each item of the estimates. That was of great assistance to the committee and saved much time.
There are some other matters of a specific nature which I intend to take up, but at this stage I ask, as the first item, that the minister furnish us with further information. One reason
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why it is necessary to ask for this information is that the reports we have before us are stale by the time they reach us. Of course, that situatioh is not peculiar to this department; it is inherent under the procedure under which we work. The last report we have is for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1947. The information in that report is now fifteen months old. Conditions change and a report of that kind is of limited use at this stage. I ask the minister to supply us with certain general information. First, will he tell the committee the number of employees in the department at the present date. According to the annual report to which I have referred, the number of employees in the department at March 31, 1947, was:
Permanent	 303
Temporary	 1,625
Total	 1,928
I am sure the committee will be impressed with the small proportion of employees on a permanent footing and the high proportion of employees on a temporary footing. We appreciate that this is a young department, having been in existence now for a trifle under four years, but one would expect that by this time a greater number of employees would be on a permanent footing. I think it will interest the committee to know the number of employees today and to have that number broken down as between permanent and temporary employees. I have already asked the minister to furnish us with the detailed expenditures of last year.
There is another matter which I am sure will interest the committee, because the committee has shown its interest in it in previous sessions. There are many amounts scattered through the various branches of this department under the euphonious title, "Educational and informational publicity." I note that the amounts budgeted for this year aggregate $406,850, whereas last year the amount budgeted for was $480,507. It would appear that there has been a reduction of $73,657 in these items for so-called educational and informational publicity, formerly called "publicity and information." However. I have a suspicion that if we compare the actual expenditures last year with the amounts estimated for the present year we shall find that it is not a decrease but an increase that is being estimated for now. I ask the minister to give the total expenditures last year under these items of educational and informational publicity.
I am also interested in the items of travelling expenses. There are many of them scattered through the various items, I think approximately thirty. According to my calculation,

these amounts total no less than $643,000. Last year the aggregate amount budgeted for was $515,650. The estimates this year show an increase of exactly 25 per cent over those of last year. The committee will wish to know why there should be such a substantial increase in the travelling expenses for this year. In case any wrong inference should be drawn, I ask hon. members to look at page 190 of the estimates. They will then see that the amounts provided under travelling expenses apparently have no relationship to the expenses of delegates to international conferences. We know that leading officials of the department on both health and welfare sides are being asked to attend international conferences at 'New York and elsewhere, and under the departmental administration item there is an item on page 190, reading as follows:
Allowances and other expenses of delegates to international conferences, $10,000.
From that, I assume that the other items of travelling expenses have no relationship to the expenses of delegates attending international conferences. I again observe that the travelling expenses for this year show an increase of 25 per cent over the estimates of last year. I think the committee will wish to know the actual amount expended last year on travelling expenses because, if the estimates of this department run true to form and history repeats itself, I believe it will be found that the amount actually expended last year was less than the amount estimated, and therefore the increase in the estimates of this year over the expenditures of last year will be more than 25 per cent.
For the purpose of saving time, I ask the minister at this stage to put on the record the information that he has in relation to family allowances. The kind of information I refer to is to be found on pages 4465, 4466 and 4467 of Hansard of last year. If that information were put on the record at this stage it would give hon. members an opportunity to prepare their questions on the matter, and time would be saved. If it is left until the item is reached before the information is put on the record, more questions will probably have to be asked because we would not have the figures before us. I make that suggestion in the interests of saving time.
I turn now to another subject. I shall be brief, because I do not desire to prolong these remarks as I believe the committee will wish to discuss the items. The subject I should like to mention now is the dominion-provincial relations with respect to health and welfare. I have no intention of trespassing on a subject which will be discussed when the supplementary estimates are before us. But we do

olio
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know that a conference was held in Ottawa this week, attended by officials of all the provincial departments of health, at the invitation of the Minister of National Health and Welfare. If the minister is in a position to give a report on that conference, without revealing matters which should not yet properly be revealed, I would urge him ito do so. The country and, I am sure, this house are anxious to know the subjects that were discussed at that conference, what success attended its deliberations, and what action may be expected to ensue from the conference.
It is significant, I think, Mr. Chairman, that when an invitation was issued by the dominion authorities for the holding of a dominion-provincial conference in this field, which requires joint dominion and provincial action if it is to be properly covered, all the provinces readily responded. I think that indicates to all and sundry the readiness of the governments of all the provinces to meet together with the dominion and with their sister provinces to discuss matters pertaining to health and welfare for the general advantage of all Canadians. I hope that that start will be followed up and that the dominion government will follow through now by calling another dominion-provincial conference or conferences with a view to bringing about common consultation and common action in matters of common concern to the dominion and the provinces.
We see great needs to be met in the field of health and welfare in Canada. Many of the needs are of critical proportions. I know the house is familiar with them. On the health side we have a critical shortage of nurses, a critical shortage of hospital accommodation, and a serious shortage of doctors, particularly in certain areas. We see certain diseases increasing in their incidence in Canada. For instance, I am sure the house was impressed by the report issued last fall by the Canadian Tuberculosis Association, calling attention to the necessity of an intensified tuberculosis program across the dominion, and pointing out that ground was lost in the previous year in Canada in the fight against this scourge. A total of 5,797 Canadians died of tuberculosis in 1946. The death rate from tuberculosis climbed from 45-9 per 100,000 of population in 1945, the all-time low, to 47-2 per 100,000 in 1946. Perhaps the minister will have further figures for the full year 1947. Perhaps those figures are not yet available. But let no one think the fight against tuberculosis has been won when we see this scourge raising its ugly head once again in this manner.
Mental disease in Canada appears to be on the increase. Last year more than 53,000 5849-324J
persons were treated for mental disease in institutions for that purpose in Canada, and the cost this year of fighting mental disease in Canada will approximate $30,000,000. That is only one aspect of the tremendous cost of disease and does not take into account all the impairment of health, the impairment of efficiency, and the loss of production of wealth in Canada by reason of illness and impairment of faculties.
The committee will wish to hear from the minister what precisely has been expended from dominion revenues on research. We hear a great deal of talk about research, but there has been altogether too much inclination to leave the burden of meeting the cost of research on the provinces and on institutions such as universities and hospitals which are largely supported by provincial and, in some cases, by municipal revenues. The committee will wish to hear from the minister exactly what sums out of dominion revenues were actually devoted to research in the field of health in Canada last year. The impression I think of most Canadians who have studied this problem is that research has largely been starved in Canada.
Again, on the welfare side, we find similar needs and similar shortages. There will be opportunity as the debate proceeds to discuss some of the needs. I mention, in passing, the serious shortage of trained social workers in Canada. I am glad to see that grants are proposed again this year to assist schools of social work in Canada. They are needing assistance because they will need to turn out more and more young people trained for social work if we are to have any hope at all of meeting the needs in this field, We cannot hope to hold our social welfare workers in Canada in places where they are so badly needed at the present time unless their salaries are commensurate with the need and importance of their work. We have been losing, over a period of years, many of our best trained social workers to the United States and in other avenues of employment, because of the inadequacy of the remuneration offered to them in welfare organizations and in public service at various levels of government.
My concluding observation in this preliminary debate is this. In the vitally important fields of national health and national welfare there can be no standing still. New needs are pressing upon us all the time as life becomes more complicated on the social side. On the health side the tremendous loss that ill health and disease take in toll each year has made such an impression on the Canadian people that I believe they are fully convinced that
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the health of all the people of Canada is the concern of all the people of Canada. I am glad that there will be an opportunity later, on the supplementary appropriations to develop our views on this point further. I leave this thought before the committee. Whatever promises to assist in meeting our problems with respect to national health will, I am sure, be readily subscribed to by all parts of the house.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, perhaps this is a department the estimates of which would be best dealt with item by item as we go through them. In other words, it might be well for us to limit our discussion on this general item. Accordingly, I shall try and follow my own advice and make my remarks brief at this time; but I should like to indicate a few of the subjects in which we feel the people of Canada are particularly interested, and concerning which we shall have something to say as we go through the various items.
First of all, I want to say that I accept the suggestion and the ruling of the Chair that we wait until we reach the supplementary estimates before we discuss the government's recently announced health program. That, of course, is one of the features of the work of this department which, at the moment, attracts great interest because it is new, and because it is a beginning which we hope will develop into something really worthwhile in the not too distant future.
However, as we go through these estimates which are before us today, I note that there is again the usual item covering health insurance studies. I hope that when we reach that item the minister will have something to say about it. I remind him that last year we were disappointed over here-the disappointment was expressed in particular by my colleague, the hon. member for Mackenzie-to discover that all the money voted the previous year for this purpose had not been expended. In fact we felt that not sufficient work was being done in this field. I note now that there is a decrease in the amount asked for under health insurance studies this year. I am sorry to note that. It seems to me that the opposite ought to be the case.


Paul Joseph James Martin: If the hon. member will wait until the item is called I can explain it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: All I am saying is that I am warning the minister that this is an item iu which we are particularly interested.
Another item which we shall have something to say about relates to the question of family allowances, and I should like to ask

the minister to be ready in particular to tell us whether consideration has been given to the request made to him a number of times regarding children of immigrants coming to this country. That is a point which the hon. member for Dauphin made most recently the other evening. We feel that it is unfair to children who come to this country to be put to the disadvantage of being denied the benefit of family allowances until they have been here for three years.
When the family allowances legislation was brought in it was emphasized by the Prime Minister that it was for the children, and that they were not to suffer any disabilities for causes over which they had no control. A case in point is that of illegitimate children. It was pointed out that it was not their fault, and that they should get the benefit of the allowances, as they do, and rightly so. It is hardly a comparable case, but in a sense it is, and I suggest that this is an amendment to the act-if that is the way it has to be done-that is overdue. I hope the minister will have something to say about it when the item is reached. I do not recall whether we had a great deal of discussion about this phase of the matter when the bill was before the house in 1944. The likelihood is that at that time we were not thinking in terms of the more extensive immigration that we are having at the present time.
Another of the items in which we are particularly interested is that relating to blind pensions. I speak of blind persons separately from old age pension recipients to emphasize the fact that the time has come for special legislation for these people. The minister knows of the representations that have been made by the various organizations representing the blind, and I hope that we might get some word from the minister this year as to changes which might be in prospect with reference to legislation affecting the blind.
In particular I should like to urge that the time has come for us to spend a little more money on the prevention of blindness. It seems to be the case-maybe I am overstating it so as ito drive home my point-that a person who is in danger of becoming blind is unable to get financial assistance that might be necessary to procure the medical attention to prevent it. Rather, he is told to go back home and wait until the blindness has overtaken him and then he can qualify for the pension. As I say, Mr. Chairman, maybe I have overstated it a bit, but I have done so to emphasize the point, and I hope that the minister may have something to say along this line that will indicate some new and better legislation with respect to blindness and blind pensions.

Supply-Health and Welfare
Lastly, when we reach the item having to do with old age pensions I hope that we may have some better news from the minister than has yet been forecast during this session. The day that the Prime Minister made his announcement about the health program there were rumours about that announcement around this house of rumours in which we live. The rumour was partly correct, but only partly, because many people around thought the announcement was also going to contain some amendment to the Old Age Pensions Act itself. I hope that the minister will have something to say to us along that line, while we are dealing with his estimates.
I know it is only a year since we amended the Old Age Pensions Act and raised the basic amount to S30 a month. Once an amendment like that has been made, there is always a tendency to sit back and accept it as sufficient for the time being; but I submit to the minister that what has happened to the cost of living-and as chairman of a certain committee he knows all about it-during the year which has passed since the amendment was made, calls for an improvement in the standard of living that we make possible for our old age pensioners. I hope that the minister will not try to pass this back to the provinces again. We can indulge in that kind of political warfare if we want to among the various provinces of this country, but I hope that we shall not do that here in this house. The thing that I deplore is that this question has been made a football, passed back and forth from one level of government to another, with the result that the old age pension varies from province to province, and the old age pensioners themselves are the victims.
I feel strongly that the time has come to increase the amount and to put it on a nationwide basis. There are two or three different approaches to this question which I suggest to the minister. One would be the implementation of the federal government's offer to the provinces back in 1945. I feel that the failure of two provinces to sign dominion-provincial financial agreements is not sufficient excuse for the failure of the government to go ahead with the implementation of these proposals, at least for the people of the provinces that have agreed. But I go further than that. I do not feel that the people in the two central provinces should suffer because their provincial governments have not seen fit to make certain agreements with the federal authorities at Ottawa.


Donald Methuen Fleming: They are not suffering.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: They will look after themselves. You talk about Saskatchewan.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If my hon. friends want to make interjections like that I will tell them that in the province of Saskatchewan an extra $5 has been added to the basic $30 by the provincial government.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: After you took it away.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Just a minute. They have added an extra $5, and that $5 is being paid to the old age pensioner of Saskatchewan. It averages out to something like $4.42 per pensioner, which added to the average that the Saskatchewan old age pensioner gets on the basis of the basic $30, brings the average per pensioner up to $34 a month, while the average in Ontario-where so much has been said about an extra S10-is only $31 a month.


Arthur Leroy Smith: In view of the preliminary ruling which was given, I think we have gone afield in the discussion of the first item so far as this matter is concerned. I did not wish to interrupt my hon. friend until he had finished his additions, but we should confine ourselves to the item before us.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The point of order taken at the beginning was clear. Those of us who have spoken have respected the ruling of the Chair, which, was that we were not to discuss the recently announced health program but should leave that until the supplementary estimates dealing with it are before us.


Arthur Leroy Smith: But the Chairman added that we should confine ourselves to the rules under item 1.
Mr. KNOWLES; Item 1 is departmental administration, governing the work of the department, and as a matter of fact I am covering some of the same items that were dealt with by the hon. member for Eglinton.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I will withdraw my point of order.


William Ross Macdonald: I should point out that if general discussion is allowed on the first item, no particular item should be discussed in detail. We will call the items and then there can be a discussion on each item. I shall leave it to hon. members not to transgress the rule that discussion should be strictly relevant to the item under consideration when we are in committee.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I assure you, Mr. Chairman, I am seeking to avoid any transgression of the rules, and had there not been these interruptions I would have been through and back in my seat before now. I tried to indicate the things that we are interested in, so that the minister might be ready to deal
Supply-Health and Welfare

with them as we come to the various items, and in another sentence or two I would have been through.
In addition to the possibility of implementing the federal government's proposal to the provinces in 1945, in respect of old age pensions, I would say that the government should also consider a higher amount than they proposed at that time, which was S30 a month to all persons seventy years of age and over, without any means test.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. member for Calgary West was certainly correct. What you are doing now is discussing specific items. When we come to old age pensions, that is the place to make an argument. You are putting me in the difficult position of having either to reply or not to reply. The proper place for the discussion of a particular question is under the item covering it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It is strange that neither the hon. member for Calgary West nor the minister said a word during the speech of the hon. member for Eglinton. I assumed he was in order, and he not only dealt with the individual items on page 33 of the estimates, but turned to the details on pages 190 to 201. This whole point of order is one that we have (o get straightened out some time.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I did not say anything, but I thought the hon. member for Eglinton was out of order, and I still think so. but I am not supposed to get up and check him. That is not my job.


Stanley Howard Knowles: One more sentence or two and I shall have finished. The other point I wish to make is that the people of Canada feel that the time has come for a complete overhauling of our old age security legislation. It is time to put it on a contributory basis, because what we wish to achieve is a complete, over-all program of social security which will protect the Canadian people against all circumstances beyond their control, and which, in particular, will provide adequate and dignified security in old age.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I hope I shall not transgress any more than anyone else has done. In any event, I shall be only two or three minutes. There are two things in which I am particularly interested. One is the treatment of the blind, which I can find in the details; the other is the question of arthritis, which I am not bright enough to find in the details. I will ask the minister, before we rise at six o'clock, to let me know roughly where it will appear. A third thing I want to do is to ask the minister, at some time during his estimates, to prepare a table, which should not

be a difficult matter, taking the progressive population of Canada and the progressive use of hospital beds and making a comparison. I think the minister will see what I am driving at. I know there are shortages of hospital beds, but if the hospital-bed occupancy is increasing beyond the population increase, there are certain conclusions we might draw, and I do not think that would be a matter of great difficulty.
I am very much inclined to think that in this department we should have some such method as that suggested by the hon. member for Eglinton, or a variation of it, where we members of parliament might have a preliminary examination of the estimates. That is particularly true of this department. Take finance; we all have some knowledge of that. In this department, however, we are dealing with operations within the department, of which we as laymen are perhaps in the most complete ignorance. I know I am in that situation with respect to these various matters. Take the word "arthritis". If we veere in committee it would be of great value to me to examine, in the most friendly way of course, and purely for the purpose of getting information, and not at all critically, to find out what these professional people have been doing by way of research and so on. It would help us all to answer the many letters we get, dealing with a subject like this.
In the estimates there are some big words the meaning of which I do not know. I have no idea whether this or that word stands for some part of the human body or something used in the laboratory. I do not know what it is. I think a committee, a reasonably large one, to which the rest of us might be invited to sit in and listen, would be advisable. We could hear doctors and physicists, research people and chemists, giving us in ordinary language an account of their accomplishments or their failures; in any event, what they have been trying to do. In this department, above all, that would be valuable to all of us, and I am certain it would help us intelligently to examine the estimates. If it did no more than broaden our own education it might be worthwhile, I hope I have not breached the rules any more than I said I would.


Mr. SHAW:: An examination of the individual items indicates to us that there is hardly a subject which is not dealt with under some specific appropriation. I shall therefore refrain absolutely from making any reference whatsoever to those matters mentioned in the separate items.
During the course of two or three or possibly more years, and again today, the

Supply-Health and Welfare
hon. member for Eglinton has reminded the house of a resolution which he proposed. It is a resolution which he has hadi on the order paper for some time, calling for an amendment to standing order 63, which would result, of course, in the setting up of a committee of the house on health and welfare.
I for one stand solidly in support of his motion. I cannot understand why there should be any hesitation whatsoever on the part of the minister or the government themselves in recommending and advocating the establishment of such a committee. I am one who happened to be a member of the social security committee of the House of Commons which sat for a couple of years. I regard the experience I obtained as a consequence of being a member of that committee as being of inestimable value.
These estimates always seems to come before the house during the dying hours or days of a session. It seems hardly fair, when one realizes the importance of national health and welfare, that we should be placed in the position of being given such a limited opportunity not only of expressing our views but of acquiring the many facts relevant to these two important subjects. I realize that in the debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne or possibly during the budget debate we can make reference to health matters; but the minister is not always here, and he cannot be expected to be. Therefore, as a rule we find ourselves just- talking with no opportunity of securing information or of asking questions. Consequently I urge that appropriate action be taken to amend standing order 63 for the purpose of setting up a committee which can sit throughout the months of a session and do the important work which I believe such a committee can do. Having said that, Mr. Chairman, I shall go no farther at the moment because, as I stated earlier, there is to be an opportunity to discuss the many other items in which I am particularly interested.


Mr. BLAIR:: I find it difficult this afternoon to follow this discussion. Owing to the fact that the supplementary estimates are to be introduced at a later time, also to the fact that we cannot consider some of the items on the list without coming to the same discussion which would sooner or later entail these supplementary estimates-


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is right.


William Gourlay Blair: -I shall confine my attention to a few remarks in general, and reserve any criticism I have for that future time when we have been promised an opportunity of dis-sussing these items.
I am interested1 in the matter of the setting up of this house committee referred to by the hon. member for Eglinton and the hon. member for Red Deer. That resolution has been on the order paper for two successive years.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Four.


William Gourlay Blair: The hon. member says it is four. We should really do something about it. It is true that we have in this house a voluntary committee on public health, but that is more in the nature of an entertainment committee. I readily enjoy going to those meetings. The subjects under consideration are often technical in nature. We enjoy the lectures and the social part of the proceedings. But from the viewpoint of accomplishing anything in the way of national health or public health, I think it is a waste of time. A little while ago the hon. member for Calgary West said he was confused in regard to technical matters. We have had two or three fine lectures which would be really hard to follow if one did not have some acquaintance with the subject itself. All hon. members are not well versed in these technical matters.
Having regard to national health conditions in Canada, I feel that this house owes more to its members than just this voluntary committee on health that we have. The chairman of it is doing a good job, but it is an unfortunate fact that we have a secretary from outside the house, and with no connection with it whatsoever, who arranges the meetings and the subjects discussed. While that is all very well and convenient, something is lacking. If we had a committee of the house on health, with members appointed by the various parties, at whose meetings members of the house could be present and listen to the discussion, I believe it would be a step in the right direction.
Certain vital matters were placed before the house, and I believe that more opportunity should be given to discuss some of these questions than is afforded by a few hours on the estimates. Very few of the items before us today do not dovetail in some place with the supplementary estimates. If, for instance, this proposed committee w'ere set up and members of the house had an opportunity of listening to the people called in by this committee as experts, they would be better educated in the subject of national health. It is only necessary to look around the chamber today to see the small interest that is shown in these matters. The average member says that these are matters for the people who are dealing with national health, such as the doctors and the
Supply-Transport

minister. Their attitude is that they do not know anything about it but will do whatever is right and will vote any appropriations that are necessary. Therefore I agree with the hon. member for Eglinton.
I brought this matter up a year ago. I made an appeal for a committee of this house to examine into certain things. There are two salient facts before this house and we should not lose sight of them. As I have repeated time and time again in this house, you cannot get by the fact that forty-two per cent to forty-four per cent of the young men who were called up for service were found to be unfit. If the percentage of unfitness was so low in that group, there is no doubt that it is much lower in other age groups. From the standpoint of national defence, no nation can be strong with forty-two per cent to forty-four per cent of its young men unfit.
The other fact to which I referred is one which cannot be disputed. We congratulate the minister or any other person concerned that the infant mortality rate is gradually dropping. At the present time it is 5-2 per thousand of live births. But you cannot get away from the fact that the percentage in the United States is 3-8. That nation has a large southern population and large cities with large congested areas. It does not stand to reason that in this country, with twelve million people, we should have a higher infant mortality rate than has the United States. Something is radically wrong. Such matters as cancer, tuberculosis and that sort of thing will naturally come up when the supplementary estimates are discussed, as will also the question of hospital beds and in fact practically all the most important items that come up in the main estimates.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Everything.


William Gourlay Blair: So that I reserve any criticism and anything else I may have to say until that time. I think we are wasting time to duplicate the discussion.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I hope there will be some praise, too.
Item stands.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.



DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

William Ross Macdonald: The committee was considering item 520, radio receiving licences.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Demobilization and reconversion-Railway and steamship service-
525. Steep Rock mines, construction, $256,900.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I should like to speak briefly about item 525 and, if I am permitted, at the same time to refer to item 526. I am pleased to see that Steep Rock mines are given support, first, in the construction item, 525, and, then-, in the subsidy item, 526.
I hold in my hand a piece of Steep Rock iron. It is the best iron I have seen anywhere. I have never seen ore with so much real iron in it as this from Steep Rock. I might add that I have not seen iron from Labrador but, if at all possible, I am going there this summer.
I do know the Steep Rock iron-, however, and it is so good that, without any further treatment, it can be put right into the smelters, like scrap iron.


Mr. REID:: What is the sulphur content of it?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Very low sulphur content. It is the purest iron ore I have seen. At Steep Rock there is a very large deposit. There are three areas of ore in the three branches of Steep Rock lake. The ore in one of those branches has already been opened, and I believe over a million tons were shipped last year. The minister would know whether I am correct or not.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The aim is for 2,000,000 tons this year, and it is hoped in a few years time to reach 5,000.000 tons per year. Unfortunately-perhaps fortunately, owing to the dollar crisis-practically all this quantity is now being shipped to the United States. I look forward to the time when large quantities of the ore will remain here in Canada. Under the present set-up, however, I suppose it is necessary to ship as much as possible to the United States.
In my view, by making these votes available, the government is taking the proper procedure. I understand that the first vote is to help remove the overburden from the second ore bed, and the removal of that overburden will cost a large amount of money. They will take it out by steam-shovel, as they are now doing in the first bed.
The whole Steep Rock enterprise is a remarkable tribute to a number of Canadians. The first of these is the late Joseph Errington of Toronto. It was his vision and his persistence, along with that of Julius Cross of Port Arthur, that this venture was made possible.
I believe Mr. Cross is a friend of the Minister



194S

[Stage Direction]
Supply-Transport
of Reconstruction and Supply. Certainly they are citizens of the same community; I do not know just how friendly they are. Then, there was the dynamic president, Major-General Hogarth, and an American friend-a former Canadian-Mr. Cyrus Eaton of Cleveland. These four men developed this enterprise and deserve credit for it. They now bring in United States dollars, so that is what the government saved, and through the bringing in of these United States funds more than paid for the subsidy the government is granting. In other words, we are getting something for nothing. There can be no doubt that this is a worthwhile proposition and one which deserves support.
I am convinced that when production reaches about 5,000.000 tons a year, sufficient of it will remain in Canada to enable a great expansion in the steel mills at Sault Ste. Marie, where they now use the low-grade ore from the Helen Mountain mine. This type of ore would be most beneficial when added to that low-grade product.
I have no doubt that in due course a steel mill will be erected near Windsor. A few years ago an attempt was made to erect a steel mill at Ojibway, near Windsor, and the old blast furnaces are still standing there. There is no reason why Windsor should not be the centre of a great steel industry. As a matter of fact, the demand for steel across the river in Detroit would be tremendous. That would be a great thing for the Windsor area, as well as for Ontario and Canada.
Then, I heard that some of this ore is being shipped to Hamilton, where there is a blast furnace. It would be helpful to that plant to have that supply, and to expand its operations. I hope to see the day when we shall have a blast furnace in Toronto. Then ships coming down the lakes could unload some iron ore at Sault Ste. Marie, some at Ojibway, a further quantity at Port Colborne-there was a blast furnace there at one time; I do not know whether it is still there-some at Hamilton and, if we had a blast furnace at Toronto, a further quantity could be unloaded there. We have a good location in Toronto for this type of industry, and it would be of great advantage to the city.
I should like to see Steep Rock mines developed to the extent Major-General Hogarth tells me is possible. They are under the impression that in those three ore beds they have perhaps 500,000,000 tons of ore- perhaps more. It is about the same quality as comes from the Mesabi range in Minnesota. The minister has my sincere and full support in the two votes for the development of the Steep Rock mines.
Thomas Langton Church: employment and will prove a good investment for this country in the areas where these mines are situated.


Angus MacInnis: I should like to ask a few questions on items 525 and 526. First, who are the owners of Steep Rock mines? Second, toward what kind of construction is this contribution being made? Third, what is the nature of the subsidy? Fourth, how much has the government of Canada contributed for construction purposes and by way of subsidies? Fifth, what return does the government receive for this money?


Lionel Chevrier: In answer to the first question, may I say that the mines are owned by a private company, the directors of which are mostly United States citizens. Then, as to what the assistance is for, the first vote is for capital requirements, while the second is for a subsidy. The first vote of $256,900 is for the construction of additional trackage made up as follows: a spur track at Port Arthur, $101,900; a spur track at Atikokan, $53,500. Then there are other small items such as lighting and mooring facilities, making a total of $170,790. The rest of the item is for the acquisition of equipment in the form of two gantry cranes and one car shaker. It was found difficult to separate the ore on account of solidification, and in order to facilitate unloading at Port Arthur these gantry cranes were purchased by the Canadian National Railways, who are operating the spur line and the ore dock. They have been found to be of great assistance thus far. The total amount of money spent in construction costs and the provision of facilities for handling ore from Steep Rock Iron Mines Limited to the end of March, 1948, amounts to $2,948,574. The Department of Transport has received $130,205 by way of amortization of the costs. There is a subsidy of twenty cents per ton on the first five million tons of ore handled, paid to the Canadian National Railways. Thus far 2,539,000 gross tons have been handled, for which a subsidy of $692,821 has been paid.


Angus MacInnis: Between what points is the ore shipped1 on which this subsidy is paid?


Lionel Chevrier: It is shipped from
Atikokan to Port Arthur, there loaded on ships destined for certain ports in the United States.


Angus MacInnis: The subsidy paid is in connection with the rail shipment from the mine to where it is put on board ship?


Lionel Chevrier: To the Port Arthur ore dock.


Angus MacInnis: I imagine that the figures the minister gave would not include the items now before us, because he said they included up to March 31, 1948, and these items have not yet been approved. The total of the items he gave is something over $3,500,000. What is the expected return to Canada? We own this ore; it is a Canadian natural resource, and I should like to know what return Canada can expect from this outlay of money. Is any royalty paid on the ore taken out? How much ore has been taken out up to the present time?


Lionel Chevrier: As I stated a moment ago, roughly 2,500,000 tons. The advantage to Canada is that by the export of this ore, which is highly rated, to the United States, we are able to get a better quota of iron ore for our own mills. We are able to derive much needed United States dollars at a time when there is a shortage. In those two respects the government have found this a profitable enterprise, and not only profitable but essential, During the war years and since, there has been a great shortage of iron ore and steel, and it was felt that this subsidy as well as the capital expenditure which was approved and provided for during the war years should be continued.


Angus MacInnis: The minister said we had a claim on a proportion of this 2,500,000 tons of ore that was shipped to the United States and processed there. What proportion of that
2.500.000	tons represents Canada's quota in the form of steel billets or whatever it may be?


Lionel Chevrier: During the war years, as the hon. gentleman knows, many of our resources were pooled, and these particular resources were pooled to some extent. By virtue of an arrangement which was made in the Department of Reconstruction and Supply, then Munitions and Supply, we w'ere able to secure, because of these shipments to the LTnited States, a larger quota for our mills than we otherwise would have received. I am sorry I cannot give the hon. gentleman the figures, but I am sure that the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply, if he were here, would know the answer.


Angus MacInnis: I think it is an important point. This ore is a Canadian ritural resource, part of the potential and zeal wealth of Canada, and we ought to know what accrues to us in a tangible form out of this transaction.


Lionel Chevrier: That is so. I will endeavour to get the information for the hon. gentleman.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I share the satisfaction expressed by the hon. member for Davenport that this resource is being developed. I also

Sup pi y- Transport
share his sense of amazement at the accomplishment itself. I, too, had the privilege of visiting Atikokan and Steep Rock mines and seeing this operation. But at the same time I feel that the observation of the hon. member for Vancouver East is absolutely correct when he draws attention to the fact that the basis of this whole operation is a natural resource which belongs to the people of Canada. What is happening now is that it is being alienated from the people of Canada and to a large extent being shipped out of the country. I think the hon. member for Davenport expressed the hope that we ought to have more mills in our own country making use of this raw material, and I agree.
There is nothing new about what is happening in this connection. It is a story we have had over and over again, and when one contemplates the tremendous, the almost incalculable wealth which is buried under what used to be Steep Rock lake and which it is now possible literally to scoop up with those huge electric shovels, it does seem to some of us a tragedy that this resource is being alienated from the people of Canada.
The question I would ask the minister is this. Has our contribution from the public treasury been confined solely to transportation facilities, such as the spur line from Steep Rock to Atikokan and the facilities at Port Arthur? My second question is this. Have we paid the whole cost of those transportation facilities that have been provided?


Lionel Chevrier: The hen. gentleman
asks, first, whether this expenditure has been directed toward transportation facilities only. I would think the answer is yes. There is an order in council covering it. It has been tabled and I thought I had it with me, but I did not bring it. It provides for the manner in which the capital expenditure shall be made, and my recollection is that it has to do with the construction cost of transportation facilities and the ore dock for the loading and unloading of ore. The subsidy is, of course, exclusively directed toward the freight rate.
Mr. KNOWI.ES: Have we paid for the whole facilities-the spur from Steep Rock to Atikokan, the facilities at Steep Rock for loading the ore, the special cars carrying the ore from Steep Rock to Atikokan, and the 'lock facilities and trackage necessary at Port Arthur?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is quite a bit of assistance we have given.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


Angus MacInnis: What are the freight charges per ton from Atikokan to Port Arthur?


Lionel Chevrier: The rate is S1.32.


Angus MacInnis: And the dominion government is paying twenty cents of that?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


Percy Chapman Black: Mr. Chairman,
I have no financial interest in this undertaking and no personal interest, but I have a great pride in this development. The person responsible for it has already been referred to by the hon. member for Broadview and the hon. member for Davenport. It was Mr. Cyrus S. Eaton, a country boy from my own constituency, from Pugwash in Nova Scotia. It took tremendous courage on his part and tremendous effort in convincing many people that this very difficult undertaking could be accomplished. I am pleased that the minister and his department have co-operated in this development.
Air. Eaton is one of the great industrialists of the United States, also one of its great educationists and one of its great philanthropists, and it is with great pride that those of us who come from Cumberland and Nova Scotia watch his accomplishments. It is our regret that he and so many others have had to leave our province. He had an uncle born near where he was born, Hon. Doctor Charles A. Eaton, who is and has been for some time chairman of the foreign relations committee of the house of representatives in the United States.	He has headed that committee
through these troublous times.
A short distance from where Cyrus Eaton was born, J. D. Johnson was also born and brought up. He is head of the Canada Cement Company. A few miles away, Doctor Simon Newcombe. one of the great astronomers of all time, was born. The historic sites and monuments board has erected a tablet to his memory.
These are only a few of the men whom our section of the country has contributed to the life of Canada and the life of this continent, and, I might add. the world. So it is with pride that I support this vote in order that we may assist Mr. Eaton and his associates in developing this great Canadian resource.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: I take some pleasure in following the hon. member for Cumberland in his remarks in respect of this venture, particularly having regard to the fact that a question was asked a short while ago-I do not think the minister quite answered it-as to why this iron ore has been shipped to the United States to be smelted. In the first place,
5849-325J
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I understand that in Canada we have only-three large iron ore mines, and that to date iron ore mining is one of the greatest and most expensive ventures that we have in the country.
I know something about the venture that has been undertaken by the Steep Rock mines company. It has been not only a venture; it has been an adventure to bring an iron mine into production in Canada. I am told by the officials in the Department of Mines that there is just not enough money in Canada to provide the kind of machinery necessary to produce and smelt the iron ore from our own Canadian mines, and that, therefore, in order that we in Canada may get the benefit of the iron ore, we must transport it to the United States. We all hope that the time will come when we shall get iron ore in Canada in large enough quantities that we shall be able to smelt it and fabricate it here. I am all for a venture of this sort. I commend the minister and his department for what they have done to facilitate it.
I am one of those who believe that the future of this country is bound up with the finding and the producing of iron ore. Probably it will be the salvation of this country, which will never come .through the dollar conservation policy as we have it at the present time.
So that we may keep the record clear on this matter, I should like the minister to tell the committee if I am not correct in saying we have not just the kind of money that is needed to buy the machinery to put into operation the facilities which are necessary to produce and smelt iron ore into steel and ingots in Canada, and that is what causes the transportation of this iron ore to the United States. If I am wrong in that I wish the minister would correct me.


Lionel Chevrier: The hon. gentleman is far from wrong, and I commend him on his attitude in connection with this vote. But in order to put a statement on the record, I suppose I should go back to what happened during the war years. There was a time in 1941 and 1942 and again in 1943 when steel was in very short supply, not only here but also in the United States. It was required, as hon. gentlemen know, for all kinds of construction, but particularly for war purposes. It was felt by the government at that time that a contribution of .this sort was little enough for a venture of the kind that was undertaken at Atikokan. The order in council which was passed in 1942 sets out that the development of the mine would be advantageous to Canada and a protection against a possible shortage

of ore to meet war requirements. It is true that the war is over, and to that extent the position has changed; but the position has not changed in so far as the shortage of iron and steel is concerned. Anyone who has to build ships or planes, or to make additions or extensions to industry, knows how difficult it is to get iron and steel. I have in mind several examples at the moment in my own department where the construction of ships is being held up, or the date on which a ship was to have been delivered is delayed because of lack of the required steel. Therefore, as I said a moment ago, the purpose of this in the wrar years was to pool some of our resources. We pooled our shipping; we also pooled this, and from it we got treatment other than we would have received had we not been able to place this in the pool. Moreover, as I said a moment ago, we are getting much needed United States dollars.


Angus MacInnis: I wonder whether the minister would explain to me just how we are getting United States dollars here. I do not doubt the minister when he says we are getting United States dollars. In view of the fact that a United States company owns the mine, is the ore taken out of that mine, sold to buyers in the United States, and does Canada thereby get United States dollars? If not, I shall be glad to know just how we acquire United States dollars from the mining of this ore.


Lionel Chevrier: Perhaps I can get the information before the evening is over.


Angus MacInnis: The minister has not the information now?


Lionel Chevrier: No. I should draw the hon. member's attention to the fact that this operation is carried on through our agents, the Canadian National Railways. There was an opportunity for a full discussion of this matter in the committee. However, I think the hon. gentleman should have that information.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I should like to support this vote. There has been some talk about the natural resources of Canada going to the United States. Another point was made that we were wasting the assets of Canada. This talk has been coming from hon. members to my left. I should like to point out to the hon. gentlemen who have spoken -on this vote that, had it not been for the United States allowing us to take our iron from the Mesabi range for a number of years, to the extent of hundreds of thousands of tons a year, we would never have had any steel business in the great lakes area. I am all for more mills to produce our own ore. We shall get
JUNE 11, 194S	5125
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that some of these days, but in the meantime we have to send our extra iron ore somewhere. It is up to us to return some of the iron ore we have taken all these years.
With respect to the venture, something has been said about Mr. Eaton and what he had to do with this venture. I should like to say something about some of the fellows in this country who have had something to do with it. One of these is General Hogarth who was very much interested in it from the start. I know of one man who has since died. He was one of the engineers on the job. They did not know whether they would be able to get the water out of that lake to get at the iron ore. It was a marvellous venture that they went into, and I am proud of the men who went into it. I support the vote.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would the minister not agree with me that, so far as getting United States dollars from this is concerned, it is a case of a Canadian company selling goods in the United States and getting United States money for its product ?


Stanley Howard Knowles: This is a United States company.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The hon. gentlemen are confusing shareholders of the company with the company. This is a Canadian company selling its goods in the United States and getting United States dollars for doing so.


Mr. MATTHEWS (Kootenay East):: Has the minister any information on the possible lifetime of this venture in terms of years? How long are we likely to be able to extract ore from these Steep Rock mines?


Lionel Chevrier: I do not know the amount of ore that is there, but I understand that it is likely to continue for quite some time.


John Ritchie MacNicol: When I spoke I said the best engineering reports available are that there are approximately half a billion tons of ore there. There are three beds, two of them in one lake and one in a third lake. Our own railway, the Canadian National, has already received between $3,000,000 and $4,000,000 in freight that they never would have had otherwise, because the amount of freight over that particular railroad was not of great magnitude.
In addition to that, there are at Steep Rock some 300 high-paid men. Better still, all the officials at Steep Rock, the engineers and geologists, are young Canadians. I have forgotten the name of the manager, but he is a young Canadian from the maritimes. The country may well be proud of what these
young Canadians have done in developing the Steep Rock mines. It has been indeed a regular gold mine as far as returns to the country are concerned.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil aviation division-Airways and airports-
527. Operation and maintenance of municipal and other airports, $448,557.
Gordon Graydon: Mr. Chairman, I think I can shorten my remarks to a large extent if you will allow me to read a twenty-five word telegram I have received. If I can put this telegram on the record it will end my remarks on this subject. It has to do with a matter I raised yesterday with reference to Fredericton airport. My memory has been somewhat refreshed by the telegram which I wish to put on the record.


Lionel Chevrier: I do not wish to interrupt the hon. gentleman, but we are now dealing with airways and airports, operation and maintenance of municipal and other airports, and as he knows, I said there was no vote for the Fredericton airport. There being no vote for it, if my hon. friend is going to read into the record a telegram having to do with that airport, I submit with deference that he is not in order.


Gordon Graydon: I have no objection. I was only trying to shorten the proceedings. The minister cannot tell me that I cannot deal with a matter which is not in the estimates if I wish to ask that it be put in the estimates. I can suggest anything I like.


Lionel Chevrier: I am not telling the hon. gentleman anything. I do not usually tell people things or instruct them to do things. I try to handle my work in the house as courteously as I can, and I do not like his telling me that I told him anything. I do not tell people what to do. I am submitting to the Chairman that if the hon. gentleman is going to read a telegram having to do with the airport in Fredericton he is out of order, and if the Chairman thinks I am wrong he can put me right.


William Henry Golding: I do not know what the telegram is about. I do not know whether it refers to this item or does not. The rules, however, are clear. Any speech in committee must be strictly relevant to the item before the committee. I do not know what the telegram is.


Gordon Graydon: I will not put it on the record. In the circumstances I shall have some remarks to make with respect to the question.
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The minister has made a submission to the Chair, to put it in that way, and I assure him that I did not reflect upon his courtesy. I know the department is a difficult one to administer and he has been a long time on his estimates. I have no wish to take up any extra time. I submit, however, that where airports and airways are mentioned in the estimates, it is not possible for you, Mr. Chairman, under the rules to order me to say nothing about a matter which I think should be in the estimates. That is done every day in connection with many estimates, for so long a time as the minister and I have been in the house. If I may, I should like to refresh the mind of the committee in respect of this matter, and it will shorten the proceedings if I read this telegram:
Fredericton
Fredericton airport Howe definitely promised me railway committee 1944 government would build airport no strings attached like site now-provided by city costing one hundred thousand whole thing disgraceful in view promises made by him and present member during by election.,
R. B. Hanson


Lionel Chevrier: I do not wish to get into a discussion with the hon. gentleman, but, it just show's that the point I attempted to make was pertinent. The item under which construction of airports should have been discussed was item 511, and we spent considerable time on it. This is municipal airports. Fredericton is not in existence so far as an airport is concerned.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil aviation division-*
528. Care, operation and maintenance of Royal Canadian Air Force airfields transferred to the Department of Transport, $433,500.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: There are several items that seem to overlap, and "seem" is perhaps the right word. The minister will remember the question I asked yesterday or the day before, regarding which he was going to make a statement.


Lionel Chevrier: I will.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: When does the minister propose to do that, at the end?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: If the minister could make that statement now it might obviate questions I should like to ask at the moment. However, if he prefers we can go ahead with this.


Lionel Chevrier: The statement I propose to make is fairly lengthy and covers the whole

government policy of air services and airports generally, and I thought perhaps I might leave it until the end.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Then may I ask a question regarding care, operation and maintenance of Royal Canadian Air Force airfields transferred to the Department of Transport? Am I right in saying that this in a sense is a duplication of certain previous items, or is this purely operation and maintenance, and were the previous ones exclusively construction?


Lionel Chevrier: This is not a duplication of any of the previous items. These are airports that have been taken over by the air force. They are airports that are no longer used for air force purposes. They are turned over to us either for disposal or for operation. We look them over and those we decide that we cannot operate profitably or economically-when I say profitably I do not mean from a financial point of view-we turn over to war assets for disposal, and the others we operate. In this vote of $433,000 odd, eight of the airports have been taken over by us and operated, and in respect of nine, we act as caretakers only until such time as they can be disposed of by war assets.


Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):: Has the minister any idea of disposing of all these airports? What may not be at the present moment a useful piece of equipment in the form of a landing field may possibly lend itself to development in the future. You cannot sell an airstrip for anything. It seems to me that the care and maintenance would be a very small item of expenditure, and it might be wiser for the department to keep them under its control before it goes about disposing of them. I can understand disposing of the buildings that have a salvageable value, but I think we might be well advised to keep these airports under the minister's control for some time until we see what can be done with them.


Lionel Chevrier: We follow this practice. We never dispose of an airport or an airfield or aerodrome which national defence feels might have some value for national defence purposes in the future.


John Lambert Gibson: I suggest that any money spent in maintaining these airports is well spent. It is a good investment. The minister's officials can keep an eye on them and see that they are taken care of in the matter of drainage and1 so on. A concrete strip can be easily ruined.


Lionel Chevrier: We endeavour to maintain them.

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Angus MacInnis: How many of these airports or airfields are there, and where are they located?


Lionel Chevrier: The vote provides for the transfer of seventeen such fields from national defence to the Department of Transport. Eight of them will be fully maintained and operated1 by the Department of Transport. They are as follows: Comox; Whitehorse; Medicine Hat; Mount Hope. Ontario; Quebec; Sydney, N.S.; Torbay; and Yarmouth. Nine are provided for on a maintenance basis; that is, we keep a caretaker there until such time as we can dispose of them.


James Herbert Matthews: May we have the names of those that are being maintained?


Lionel Chevrier: Massett. British Columbia; Terrace, Vanderhoof, Woodcock. Bowden, Claresholm, Shepard, Chatham and Maitland.


Mr. CARDIFF:: What ones in Ontario?


Lionel Chevrier: Mount Hope, Ontario, is one we are maintaining and operating.


Edward George McCullough: Is the
Massett airstrip being maintained so that it is feasible to land on it?


Lionel Chevrier: The answer is yes.


John Lambert Gibson: In the names of the airports which the minister said he was maintaining, I did not hear him read out the name of Tofino.


Lionel Chevrier: We are operating Tofino. Tofino is not under this vote. These are airports taken over from the R.C.A.F. in this particular vote.


John Lambert Gibson: Tofino is not being operated. It is only being maintained at the present time. This is one of your bigger airports on the Pacific coast.


Lionel Chevrier: May I get an answer to that and give it a little later?


John Lambert Gibson: Yes.


Mr. STUART (Charlotte):: Is the airport at Pennfield being operated?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, it is.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil aviation division-Northwest communication system-
531. To provide for the difference between the expenditures for operation and maintenance and revenue accruing from operations during the year ending March 31, 1949, not exceeding $728,412.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will this item be covered by the minister's
statement? If so, I will not ask any questions on it now. Otherwise I would want to get some information.


Lionel Chevrier: I do not want to be unfair to the hon. gentlemen. In the statement which I will make I shall not deal with details or with particular votes. I shall refer to the policy generally in connection with the construction of airports and moneys being expended on airports generally. I will not touch on this because it is a telecommunication service.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Then I had better ask my questions here. Can the minister give us the receipts and disbursements figures?


Lionel Chevrier: Perhaps I had better give the hon. gentleman receipts first.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the minister break them down, roughly?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes. First of all, I should say that this system is operated by the Canadian National Telegraph Company; it was taken over by the army and transferred only recently to the Department of Transport. There are certain revenues from it, and this is a volte to look after the deficit.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the minister make clear just the scope of the operation? I am a little bit foggy about it.	.


An hon. MEMBER:: You always are.


Lionel Chevrier: It is the operation, from Edmonton to Whitehorse, or wire lines that were built by the United States during the war years. We paid the United States a sub-tantial sum of money during the war for all the work they did in the Northwest Territories, including Canol and many other things. This was one of the items in that sale. National defence operated this for a time and then turned it over to transport in 1947, or perhaps it was 1946, I am not too sure which. We have appointed the Canadian National Telegraphs to operate it.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: May I ask why they were appointed?


Lionel Chevrier: Because they were
already in the area, because they have a telegraph system, and because they are efficient. We could have given it to a private company.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: This is just a communication system?


Lionel Chevrier: That is all it is. The receipts amount to $671,000. I will just give the amounts in thousands. That is made up
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of lease of lines to the United States government, 8271,000; lease of lines to the Department of Transport, 8135,000; lease of lines to air line operators, $47,000; lease of lines to R.C.A.F. and army, $70,000; commercial traffic and other leases, $147,000. The total of revenue therefore is $671,000. The total of expenses is $1,399,000, and the difference in the two is this vote, $728,000.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Then will the minister give us the items of expenditure?


Lionel Chevrier: Salaries and wages,
$685,000; allowances, $37,840; telegrams, telephones and postage, $4,500; printing, stationery and office equipment, $3,500; materials and supplies, $254,000; freight, express and cartage, $26,000; light, power and water, $55,000; repairs to buildings and works, $22,500; repairs to equipment, $69,000; special services-maintenance, $29,000; contracts and agreements, $44,000; pensions, $23,000.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I think that is enough. On the face of it, these figures stagger one. The total receipts are $671,000, and salaries alone are $685,000.


Lionel Chevrier: That is right.
Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario); Is there any prospect of that situation substantially altering, or is this a service that must be maintained regardless of its return?


Lionel Chevrier: It is something that must be maintained, if we are to have an air service in that part of the country. As the hon. gentleman knows, we maintain air communication from Edmonton to Whitehorse, a route which is several thousand miles in length. My hon. friend knows that is fairly barren ground or territory up there. No one likes to go to live in that area unless he is adequately remunerated.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: It may be that I shall have some further questions later. I presume the minister is going to deal with this matter.


Lionel Chevrier: Y'es, I expect to.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Government-owned enterprises-non-active accounts-
National harbours board-
556. Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1948 on any or all of the following accounts:
(a)	Retirement of maturing debentures- Saint John, $282,900.

(b)	Reconstruction and capital expenditures -Halifax, $2,605,775; Saint John, $2,000,000; Quebec, $122,200; Churchill, $50,000; generally unforeseen and miscellaneous, $200,000'; total, $4,977,975.
Less amount to be expended from replacement funds, $426,000; total, $4,834,875.
William Henry Golding: Hon. members will find the item on page 83 of the estimates under government owned enterprises.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Before you went to that item, Mr. Chairman, I was going to bring something to your attention. The minister promised last night to give us further information with regard to item 490, the cost of the Saint John lightship.


William Henry Golding: Order. Item 490 is passed.


Lionel Chevrier: I did give that information. I put it on the record at eight o'clock last evening.


William Henry Golding: We are considering item 556. Shall the item carry?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: No. This has to do with the national harbours board, as I understand it.


William Henry Golding: That is right.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I should like to say a word on it.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: You promised far more than that last year. I think it was $17,000,000.


Lionel Chevrier: There are so many of these that I hardly know where I am at.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That was before the by-election.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The senior member for Halifax will tell us about that.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I do not think I can oblige hon. members of the opposition in regard to election talk. I think we are more serious at the present time in regard to the estimates.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Were you not serious last July?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: The result would almost lead one to think I was.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Regarding what was said in the campaign?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I am always serious.


Lionel Chevrier: Could we get along with the vote?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That is what we are trying to help in.

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Lionel Chevrier: You were helpful a while ago, I must say.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I do not think it is necessary for me to go over the history of the inauguration of the National Harbours Board Act in 1936, and to deal with the development of the board under present conditions. All hon. members are fairly familiar with that. I should like to deal with it as we see it from a local standpoint. What I shall say with respect to the port of Halifax applies equally to practically all the seven ports. I make that statement because I have heard criticisms from each and every port district throughout Canada and from members representing constituencies in which the national harbours board operates under the present system.
I do not think it is possible under that system to give as direct attention and supervision as would be the case if we were operating under local committees; and in my view, from a local standpoint, that supervision is necessary. Someone will say, "Look at the record since 1938. See how our revenues have increased. See how our expenditures have been kept down." But that is not the whole answer in business. Efficiency plays an important part. On the other hand the greater interest brought about by the use of local advisory committees develops just as great efficient, creates a greater interest in the ports and secures business which would otherwise be lost.
I honestly believe that if we had had a local advisory committee last year we would not have lost the freight we did lose through its being diverted to Portland, or other United States ports. The same applies to the amount of business being diverted to those ports at the present time. I feel that there are items which at the present time would help in the development of the port of Halifax which, on account of the attitude taken by the members of the national harbours board, are lost. When I say that, I make no reflection upon the ability of the board-. I am simply stating that they are so far away from local ports that they have not the same interest as would people who are directly connected with them.
Once or twice a year members of the board visit Vancouver at the extreme west, and on other occasions they come east. But their visits are so brief that they cannot possibly get into close touch with matters relating to the development of the port; and I feel this could be done by local authorities.
I do not want the minister to say, "Do you want us to go back to the old system?" It is true that at the present time there is on the order paper a resolution suggesting that we revert to the old system. I am not proposing that this evening; that matter will be dealt with at the proper time. I do say, however, that the minister should now give serious consideration to taking action to bring into effect the recommendations laid down in the Gibb report. That report was made in the best interests of the various ports, and it said that greater efficiency could be brought about with the assistance of local committees. This would naturally create greater interest in boards of trade and the community in general, including longshoremen and workers on the waterfront. With a local committee representing these various groups, there would be general support. I do not say those committees must be given full authority, but, I feel that they should be in a position to advise; and certainly I believe they could advise more intelligently than men living a thousand miles away. In the east-and I believe it is the same in the west-this is referred to as a system of remote control.-This can be understood when it is realized that in Halifax we think of Ottawa being a thousand miles away. Quite often, from the attitude adopted by the minister and members of the national harbours board, I form the impression that, instead of their being a thousand miles away, they are ten thousand miles away, when they look at matters from Ottawa eastward.
To my mind there is a vast difference between trying to control a business from a thousand miles away and having someone right on the spot. We seldom see large concerns such as Eaton's and Simpson's following that practice-and I do not wish to advertise those companies. They set up local committees and give them full power to act. The}' do not just appoint a manager, as we appoint a port manager; they invest real authority in their local managers, so that they are permitted to do the buying and selling of merchandise and to carry on the business generally, under their own power.
On the contrary, this does not apply in respect of the ports. In Halifax an appointment cannot be made without the authority of the national harbours board. If a watchman is to be employed or given a permanent position, it must be approved by Ottawa. Perhaps in the first instance the recommendation would come from the local port manager, but the final approval must come from the board at Ottawa.
I am hopeful that, folio-wing the appointment today of the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg (Mr. Winters) as parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Transport, he will be able to do some of the things the minister
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has not had time to do, and to come into closer contact with us on the east coast. He is a fine, bright, keen young man, and he appreciates our problems.
I venture to say that the national harbours board has not taken any direct or definite action to make sure that there is a sufficient quantity of grain in the elevators at Halifax at all times to meet the requirements of ships making regular calls at that port. Someone may say, "Oh, well, we have an elevator there of two million bushels capacity." That may be so, but it is never filled to capacity. We need that grain there at all times, to provide ballast for ships coming in and calling at our port.
I believe that if the figures are checked for the last ten years it will be found there has been a gradual decrease in the amount of grain shipped through Halifax-with the exception of one or two years when we waged a strong drive to have a few thousand bushels added for shipment to that port.
There are many local matters on wdiich the minister could be better advised by a local committee. I do not wish to speak at too great length, because I shall have an opportunity of asking questions later on; but I do hope that he will take definite action to provide local advisory committees composed of local men, with authority, so that they may advise intelligently those at Ottawa and thus bring to our port a greater amount of trade, and prevent trade which otherwise belongs to Canadian ports from being diverted to the United States.


John Horace Dickey: Before the minister replies, I should like to say a word in support of my colleague who has been fighting the battle of the port of Halifax in this chamber since 1935. The minister has been asked to give further consideration to adopting a system of advisory committees to look after the interests of the various ports which come under the administration of the national harbours board. I would point out to the minister that the Gibb report recommended the setting up of a national harbours board to administer the Canadian harbours, but at the same time it pointed out the value of local advisory committees to assist the national board in properly looking after the interests of the various ports in this country, each of which has its own individual problems and interests which must be attended to.
I think it is unreasonable to expect that a national administration will be thoroughly satisfactory to all parts of the country, without there being local committees to assist and advise. For the last two years there has been at Halifax a port of Halifax club. This

is a private organization without any official standing, but its membership is made up of business and shipping men who have the interests of the port of Halifax at heart. If the minister will inquire from the port manager and the officials of the harbours board, I think he will find that that unofficial organization has made, in its short life, many constructive and helpful suggestions which have worked out to the mutual advantage of the club, the port of Halifax and the harbours board.
If an unofficial organization can make a contribution of that kind, I think it must be realized that a local advisory committee, having some official status and having definite duties, would be able to do much more. I hope the minister will give further serious consideration to the full implementation of the Gibb report. After all, the approval of the national harbours board in that report was to a large extent conditioned upon having local advisory committees to assist.


Angus MacInnis: Mr. Chairman, coming from the other end of the country where there is a harbour of sorts, I want to say a word for fear the minister might too readily succumb to the eloquent pleadings of the senior and junior member for Halifax. The present system was adopted after another system had had many years of trial. I think the present system is much more satisfactory. The senior member for Halifax mentioned a committee with authority. If it is to be an advisory committee, it cannot be a committee with authority. If it is a committee with authority, it is something more than an advisory committee. In making any change in the present system the minister should be most careful.
I am all in favour of having advisory committees, but I know the dangers of small town machine politics in matters of this kind. If the minister needs any support in the matter and if mine is of any value, I shall be glad to give it to him.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. members for Halifax will expect me to say something. I want to commend both the senior member and the junior member for Halifax for their advocacy of local advisory committees. I say that, because the senior member at least has persistently brought this to my attention and to the attention of this house. Thus far the government has not seen fit to appoint local advisory committees, for the reasons which I have already given on other occasions and which perhaps I need not repeat in detail, but I do not say to the hon.

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gentlemen that the question of advisory committees should not be given careful consideration.
In his report Sir Alexander Gibb recommended the appointment of local advisory committees, but on the other hand we must keep in mind that when reports are brought down they generally contain a number of recommendations which the government need not accept in their entirety. As far as the Gibb report is concerned, the government accepted some of the recommendations and did not deal with others. One of those which it did not act on was the appointment of local advisory committees. As such committees would have no financial responsibility, the government thought at the time that that recommendation should not be given effect to. I think now of the port of Toronto where a commission was set up under departmental jurisdiction and authority, but where the funds are provided, administered and spent by the city. The dominion government does not contribute to those expenditures.
The government felt that it would be much better if they were able to obtain outstanding men as port managers, men with experience, men who knew local conditions, men who were able to deal with local requirements, men who could meet with various groups in the community. We have been successful in getting two new port managers in recent years who, I think, are doing excellent work. The port manager at Halifax has had a great deal of experience. According to the information I have from my officers, he is able to meet and deal with various groups in the community.
My hon. friend says there is difficulty when one is far away from the central government, and to that I cannot take too much exception. There is bound to be criticism on that account. I have heard it in Vancouver; I have heard it in Halifax, and I have heard it also in Saint John. But one must keep in mind that when the National Harbours Board Act was passed and the board appointed, one of the objects was to avoid competition as between one port and another as there had been under the system which existed prior to 1937. If the government, through its national harbours board, were to encourage competition between the various ports, I do not know that that would tend to good administration. As it is now, the position of the port of Halifax so far as total cargo tonnage is concerned is good. In 1938 the total cargo tonnage was about 2.000,000 tons, and at the end of 1947 it was 3,577,000 tons, or an increase of more than one and a half million tons, which shows-


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: What was it in 1944?


Lionel Chevrier: I will get that in a moment. That shows that the administration of the ports is progressing. I do not want to tell my hon. friend that I will not give consideration to the establishment of local advisory committees. The question comes up periodically, but thus far the government has not seen fit to establish them, for the reasons I have given. I am always open to conviction; as my hon. friend says, I now have the advantage of a new and young parliamentary assistant coming from the maritimes, and I am sure that he, too, will give this matter his very careful consideration.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I wish to thank the minister for his promise of consideration, although I never liked that word "consideration." I like "favourable review" very much better.
I should like to comment on the minister's remark that we do not want to set up competition between the various ports. That might sound all right to the minister, but if he considers the large commercial firms, wholesale and retail, which have branches throughout Canada, and the trust companies and the methods of banking institutions with branches spread all over the country from the east to the west, he will find that there is the keenest competition for business between the various branches. There are wholesale drug firms with branches in the province of New Brunswick, at Saint John, for instance, and Nova Scotia, at Halifax, all competing with one another for the business of the Annapolis valley and other sections of Nova Scotia. I do not think it was a particularly good argument which the minister advanced that competition is not a good thing, particularly as the policy of this government is, I believe, free enterprise. Incentive and competition are the life of business. I say to the minister that if you have the right type of man-and I believe you have in the majority of cases; you certainly have a very fine port manager at Halifax-if the opportunity were afforded to him of going out after business, the port of Halifax would get more business than it is now getting.


Lionel Chevrier: I say he has that authority now.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Then he does not appreciate that fact, and I doubt whether the officials in front of the minister will grant him authority to canvass for the business.


Lionel Chevrier: I am saying on my responsibility as a minister he has that authority.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I am pleased to have that assurance from the minister. I will pass it
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along, and then, if I should have any criticism to make of him for letting business be diverted to United States cities, the responsibility will be on his shoulders.
We have at least gained one point this evening by raising this question. I do not want to rehash the question of the business we lost to United States ports last year, but there is a close connection between the activities of the Canadian National Railways and the operations of the national harbours board. I believe that there should be closer co-operation between these two bodies so far as Halifax is concerned. We in Halifax look upon the Canadian National Railways as having its eastern terminal at Halifax, and because of that we think a greater effort should be made to bring ships into Halifax and that the Canadian National Railways should carry ship cargoes from Halifax to the great lakes. Rut the members of the commission will say: We cannot go out and canvass business against Saint John. I say that in co-operation with the Canadian National Railways the national harbours board should be endeavouring to route all the freight possible direct to Canadian ports over Canadian National Railways lines. If that policy were followed I believe we would have a great deal more business in the port of Halifax than we are getting at the present time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National harbours board-
560. Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 2d of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1948 on any or all of the folio-wing -accounts:
Reconstruction and capital expenditures- Montreal, $853,IDS; Vancouver, $115,000; total, $96-8,105.
Less amount to be expended from replacement funds, $100,228; total, $867,877.
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I might now make a statement which I promised to the committee. The hon. member for Peterborough West asked me last evening in what papers -were advertised certain lands having to do with the Trent canal which were sold in the area adjacent to the township of East Gwillimbury. I was unable to give him the details test, night; but I have found an advertisement, which I have here, and which covers all the lands mentioned. The advertisement appeared in the Globe and Mail, the Star and the Telegram, all three Toronto papers; also in -the Era and Express of Newmarket, and in the Witness of Bradford. There were two insertions in each of the Toronto papers and one insertion in each of the other twro papers. The advertisement in the Toronto papers appeared on January 23 and 24, 1947;

in the Era and Express on January 23 and in -the Witness on January 29, 1947. The schedule of lands to which reference is made in the advertisement includes lots 122, 123 and 124, concession 1, township of East Gwillimbury.
I promised the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario that I would make a statement on the policy of the government with reference to the expenditure of money on air services and air construction.
On April 2, 1943, a statement was made in this house by the Prime Minister relating to government policy with reference to civil aviation. Then on March 17, 1944, the Minister of Munitions and Supply reaffirmed that policy and extended it. Those statements give an accurate picture of government policy, although a few changes have been made and announced since that time. Additional changes will be made if and when new developments and conditions occur.
Enlarging somewhat on certain items of those previous statements, I should like to list the following responsibilities which the government has assumed:
1.	Commercial air services:
(a)	The establishment of trans-continental and main line services throughout Canada by Trans-Canada Air Lines, to a standard comparable with similar services in the United States, such services being based upon agreements between Trans-Canada Air Lines and the government, under the provisions of the Trans-Canada Air Lines Act.
(b>
The encouragement of feeder line schedule services throughout Canada, where present or future public convenience and necessity indicate that such services are required, such services to be provided to standard consistent with the traffic requirements.
(c)	The encouragement of frontier or "bush'' services, so -as to aid in the development of Canada's natural resources and adequately to provide for the development of those areas of Canada not served by other transportation facilities, where public interest indicates that such services are required.
(d)	The encouragement of the development of such specialty air services as are from time to time appropriate in the public interest.
(e)	The establishment of such international air services as are appropriate with Canada's interest in international trade routes.
2.	Airports:
(a)	The progressive development of main line airports, to permit of the utilization of the most modern types of aircraft at the minimum capital outlay consistent with safety and economy of operation.
(b)	The development of a minimum number of international airports consistent

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with Canada's position in the international civil aviation field and our obligations under international air agreements.
(c)	' The encouragement of and assistance to municipalities for the development of airports throughout Canada, where it seems desirable that such airports should be developed, maintained and operated by municipalities, to standards set out by the dominion government.
That deals more particularly with the first item that we discussed this evening.
(d)	The assistance in the establishment of airstrips at air bases feeding remote areas, for the purpose of stimulating the development of Canada's natural resources.
(e)	The assumption, for the time being, of part of the costs of maintenance and operation of those airports which are under the control of the Department of Transport, and to assist municipalities in the maintenance and operation of airports where such airports have either been transferred to, or developed by, municipalities.
In this connection, there has been established a scale of landing fees intended to meet part of the cost of the maintenance and operation of runways, which charges are based upon the ability of the air operator to pay and are approximately three per cent of the estimated revenue on a reasonable basis of operation.
Hangar rentals and other special facilities provided at airports at government expense are based upon a rental which is expected to amortize the cost involved over a reasonable period of time.
Efforts are being made to obtain revenues at the principal airports under the control of the Department of Transport, from such concessions as can be exploited with a view to meeting the expenses of maintenance and operation.
3.	Aids to air navigation:
The provision and maintenance of aerial aids to navigation, such as radio ranges, instrument landing systems, meteorological services and air traffic control, if necessary, so as to ensure the regularity and safety of air navigation.
4.	The government keeps abreast of all civil aviation developments. As a member of the international civil aviation organization, Canada has played a leading part in the establishment of common procedures in the technical aspects of civil aviation. The government will continue to favour the policy of international collaboration and co-operation in air transport.
I have two or three other answers to questions which were asked last night. Perhaps
I might say they are questions of minor importance, and the committee might allow me to write to the hon. gentlemen giving them the information rather than giving it on the floor of the house.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Perhaps my question in reference to wreckage was of minor importance.


Lionel Chevrier: I saw it today. May I give the answer now?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: This is one of the minor questions to which the minister referred.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes. I find that there has been no salvage service in the maritime provinces since 1917. The last payment was made to the Maritime Foundation Company, I think, which operated a wrecking plant in those years. This company is now doing its own work. I am informed it is in a sound financial position, and for that reason it has not been necessary to pay a subsidy.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I wish to thank the minister for the information, which I do not think is entirely correct. Perhaps at some time or other I will check on it and make a further observation. I am reasonably sure that there was a payment. Before the officials leave, I have a question.


Arthur Leroy Smith: We are still on item 560.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, the last vote.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I have reason to believe that a subsidy was paid to the Maritime Foundation Company since 1935. In any event, if subsidies are not needed on that dangerous portion of the Atlantic coast, surely they are not needed to the extent of $45,000 in other parts of Canada. I shall let that stand for the time being.
The minister was good enough to give the tonnage for 193S. When I mentioned 1944 he said that he would give that. I ask him to give the tonnage; that is all. In view of the large increase in the import and export business enjoyed by Canada during recent years, and bearing in mind the figure the minister gave for 1938, will he be good enough now to tell us the figure for 1944 and 1947?


Lionel Chevrier: For 1944, 6,238,000 tons; 1947, 3,577,000 tons.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: That proves the point. We are not getting anywhere near our share of the business.


Lionel Chevrier: The hon. member must keep in mind that 1944 was a peak year, not only in the operations of the ports but also in rail and other transportation facilities.
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Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Probably my question was a minor one, too. Some time ago I asked the minister about the word "deficits" appearing in the reports instead of the word "service". I think he said it would be given consideration. I notice that item 557, which has been passed, contains the word "deficits" instead of the word "service".


Lionel Chevrier: All I can tell the hon. gentleman is that he has brought the question up repeatedly. He brought it up again during the sittings of the railway committee. I then said to him that the Duncan report clearly stated in one of its recommendations the reason why this is set out as a separate operation. The Canadian National Railways were then required to segregate the receipts from the expenses and keep a separate account. I think the president of the Canadian National Railways told the hon. gentleman that he would give it some consideration. He is guided to some extent by that recommendation.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I wish to say that I am not going to press this matter further at the moment; nevertheless I wish to make one or two comments to the minister about the statement which he read. What I asked the minister was for a statement showing the line of reasoning which had been used in air development, and particularly the relationship between the civil and the military side, the relation which defence had to ordinary commercial aviation. I think the minister will agree that the statement which he has read has said nothing about the security side, except by implication that these fields no doubt have a relation to security.
Any criticism that I make I realize is not levelled against the minister at all, because he has only just taken this branch over, and that is one of the reasons why I am not going to press the matter now. I think the statement he has given has in one way answered nothing. It has given us a certain number of figures. One could sum up by saying that it says we have felt it desirable to keep up with the Jones's; in other words, with other nations in the matter of civil aviation. I am not saying it is not a good thing. What I am saying is that it is no attempt to answer my question as to why we are carrying commercial passengers at a rate far below cost, which I assume we are. He has not answered that at all. He has not attempted to, but there is an important point in these expenditures which we are making for the defence element on the one side and the commercial element on the other. I will not press that now. I will
[Air. Chevrier.]
simply say that, so far as any evidence that we have at the present time indicates, there is no reason to suppose that there is any thought-out basis on which we are proceeding. We are simply going ahead in the belief that keping up aviation is a good thing-as I think it is-


Angus MacInnis: Then you are in agreement with the government.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am not either agreeing or disagreeing. I am simply pointing out at the momenta-and I will leave it at this-that next year there will be an opportunity to question the minister, and I hope that the questions which I asked the day before yesterday, and which I think are sound questions, will be answered. As a matter of fact, I do not think they can be answered because they have not been considered.


Lionel Chevrier: The hon. gentleman has been very kind and courteous this evening. If I understood him rightly last night, I thought he felt that there was no predetermined plan which we were following, and I attempted this evening, in this statement, to show that there was. We have divided it under three heads: commercial air services, airports, and aids to air navigation. It was my intention, when I asked the officers to get this information, to have it prepared in the manner in which it has been prepared in the department under previous ministers, and they told me that this was the policy. I am giving it to the committee with that assurance. It may not be what the hon. gentleman had in mind, but I suppose if I had brought down a statement of another kind he would have been free to criticize it and to say it was not satisfactory-


Stanley Howard Knowles: He would have wanted this one.


Lionel Chevrier: -and to shoot at it in the manner in which he has shot at this one.


Arthur Leroy Smith: He has been very gentle with you; he has not shot it at all.


Lionel Chevrier: I have been grateful for his courtesy, and I hope that next year I shall be able to answer his questions.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am not going to press the matter. I simply ask the minister to read my question of the other day, which I asked in good faith, and which I believe has something to do with the essence of the matter. He has not been able to answer the question, but it is not through any fault of his own.

Su ppl y- T ranspo ft


Arthur Leroy Smith: This is item 560. Apparently there is no one from either Montreal or Vancouver. I am looking along the line and I do not see anyone from Vancouver.


Angus MacInnis: Your sight is not good.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I was looking in that direction. I think I hear someone saying that no Conservative could ever see anything in the direction of socialism. I agree with that heartily. We are in agreement on that point.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The statement was that you could not see even in the direction in which you are looking.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I hear a fellow from Winnipeg-I beg your pardon, Mr. Chairman, an hon. gentleman from Winnipeg-saying that I cannot see anything even in the direction in which I am looking. I assure you, sir, I can see more through the back of my head than he can see through his eyes, so that we are all even there. I think there is another shot coming. How many barrels have they to this gun anyway?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Which way are you going when you are looking through the back of your head?


Arthur Leroy Smith: I shall be going straighter then than you are. no matter in what direction I am going. Perhaps the hon. gentleman will laugh that one off. I think I scored that time.


William Ross Macdonald: I wonder if all hon. members would address the chair and discuss the item under consideration.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I shall be happy to do that, sir. I began by trying to do so, but certain influences-I can only call them that-to my left, distracted my attention. I am sorry, and I am sure they will join me in an apology to you.
I was going to say that there is roughly $1,000,000 in this item. There is $968,105; we are spending S853.000 odd in Montreal and $115,000 odd in Vancouver, and there is an increase over last year of $336,000 odd. Would the minister let me know what the major items are in an expenditure of that size? I live inland and I should like to know what these things are.


Lionel Chevrier: To deal first with Montreal, there is an item for wharves and piers, $60,000; paving and drainage, $40,000; construction of single storage shed, $350,000; installation of cargo beams, $30,000; installation of fire hydrants and transit sheds, $45,000; tracks to serve new sheds, $54,000; cold storage plant, $25,000.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Where is that?


Lionel Chevrier: It is on the harbour front.


Arthur Leroy Smith: How many miles does that cover?


Lionel Chevrier: About twelve miles.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I can find it without trouble.


Lionel Chevrier: Turning to Vancouver: renewal decking, $40,000; reconstruction of conveyor gallery, $18,000; construction of shed to replace shed No. 1, Lapointe pier, $5,000; replacement of substructure, shed 2, $45,000; electric power supply cable at fish dock, $7,000.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Would the minister give me similar figures in the gross for the two ports in the previous year? There is an increase of $306,377. Can the minister give me the comparative gross for the two ports last year?


Lionel Chevrier: The actual gross expenditure last year for Vancouver was $230,000. and for Montreal, $123,000, which added together is much less than the amount mentioned in the estimate, because we did not spend the money voted.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
2J5. Departmental administration, $623,428.
Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister was going to give a great deal of information that had been asked for.


William Ross Macdonald: Before the minister
replies, it occurred to me that some other hon. members might wish to ask questions. If not, the minister has the floor.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Before making
general observations, I was waiting for any other questions that hon. members might have wished to put. Perhaps I might start where the last speaker but one, the hon. member for Calgary West, left off, so that I can cover in a general way, at this stage, as many as possible of the points raised by those who have thus far discussed the estimates.
Of course it is difficult on these estimates, because of their particularity, to define the relationship between what is done under this vote and what might, within the rules of the house, more properly be discussed under the specific items to be contained in the supplementary estimates which will embrace the national health program announced a few
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weeks ago by the Prime Minister. But the question raised by the hon. member for Calgary West is one that I think comes under the general administrative vote; and perhaps on that account, and because of the importance of the matter, I should make a comment.
The hon. gentleman referred to what the department was doing with regard to one of the great causes of suffering in this country, namely rheumatism or, as it is more properly called, arthritis. A good part of what I would want to say about that subject, by the very nature of the program announced by the Prime Minister, would have to be discussed when we discuss our supplementary estimates in connection with the grants we intend to make to the provinces and which, among other things, in the public health grants, include some assistance toward trying to relieve human suffering in this country in terms of arthritis.
As the hon. gentleman has said, there is a general interest in this subject. Certain organizations throughout Canada have expressed a desire that provincial and federal administrations should seek to do something about this great cause of human suffering in our country. About nine months ago, having a layman's point of view in connection with this department, I asked two of my officials to go to England and to get in touch with Lord Horder, whose work in the field has perhaps been the most outstanding in the world. As a result of their conversations with him last September, I convoked here at Ottawa a conference of all the provincial governments, the medical colleges and the leading rheumatologists in this country, with the idea of seeing if there was something that we might do on a national basis to try to bring about co-ordinated action in regard to what is properly called arthritis.
The result of that meeting was the establishment in this country of an organization to be known as the Canadian arthritis and rheumatism society. The organization of the body followed the technique of the previously successful attempt in creating on a national basis the Canadian cancer institute. I am happy to say that the job of the Canadian arthritis society will be, first of all, to try to provide, through their films and pamphlets and whatever other known media are available, information which the specialists on this subject have-and I must say that I am advised it is a limited knowledge-with regard to the ways and means by which rheumatism, in the two hundred and over forms in which it exists, can best be corrected by medical action.
fMr. Martin.]


Arthur Leroy Smith: By medical what?
Mr. MARTIN By medical and professional treatment. At the end of the last war the government in this country and the world generally, because they had in their midst tubercular veterans, were obliged by that fact to try to make some real effort to remove the scourge of tuberculosis. The impetus that was given by the Department of Veterans Affairs in this country, as well as by similar departments in other countries, sponsored by the obligation of 'looking after tubercular veterans, set on foot in this country a tremendous amount of governmental and voluntary effort in an attempt to remove tuberculosis from our midst. I have every reason to suggest that, as a result of world war II, it may be possible to duplicate in the arthritic field- and I am now merely expressing what I trust will ultimately prove to be an eventuality- the same kind of impetus that was given at the end of the last war. Why do I say that?


Arthur Leroy Smith: Will the hon. member permit a question?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Do your experts with respect to arthritis say that today they have any cure in the world for that disease?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, I cannot say that they do. I shall come to that in a moment.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I am sorry to interrupt.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is all right. What I was trying to do was just to give the committee a picture of the imagination that has gone into what, in a humble way, we and the provinces are now attempting; and what we have done was done on the basis of the best professional advice existing in this country and in the United Kingdom. As a result of world war II, it may be expected that science, through the resources placed at its disposal by this nation for the treatment of arthritic veterans may bring about the same kind of encouragement that followed the action taken by the governments with regard to tubercular veterans at the end of the last war and its consequences on the civil population.
At Sunnybroolc hospital, which I understand many hon. members will visit tomorrow, and at one or two of our other major veterans hospitals in this country, but notably at Sunnybrook. there has been built in terms of

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equipment, I am told-and I have never examined it; I am not personally qualified to comment on, to pass judgment on or to assess the value of that equipment, or to do other than rely upon what those who by training should know better about it-what is perhaps the most modern plant of its kind in the world. We are hoping that, as a result of that equipment, and as a result of the work of the rheumatism and arthritis society, as a result of the moneys which will be given by the central government to the provincial authorities, we may be able to do three things: first, to assist that society in carrying on an educational campaign in this country among those who are suffering from rheumatism, or arthritis as it is properly called; second, to give an impetus to the profession itself in the treatment of this subject. I hope it will be feasible to bring to Sunnybrook and to similar institutions in this country, for purposes of giving refresher courses with regard to arthritis, this terrible cause of suffering, certain people in the profession.
With regard to the specific question of the hon. member for Calgary West, whose great personal and national interest in this problem will, I am sure, commend itself to every member of the committee, because of his own close relation to it, we have had this conference with nine of the leading rheumatologists of this country, headed by Doctor Wallace Graham of Toronto, Doctor Wright of McGill and several others. We have relied on their judgment in the creation of this institute and society. The steps that we are taking to provide financial assistance to them, along with the moneys provided by the Canadian Red Cross will. I hope-and I cannot say any more at this stage than hope-set on foot a movement in this country which will at least partly relieve 100,000 people-that is an estimate based upon a survey made about seven years ago-who are seriously suffering from this disease, and perhaps another 700,000 who are not as seriously suffering.
I cannot at this time say any more than that about the matter. There is not as much known, so specialists say, as one would like. There are many forms of the disease which lend themselves to curative action, by rest treatment. But I wish to assure the hon. member and the committee that the interest I have taken personally with regard to the cancer institute-and I am not going to be overly modest about that achievement-will be as intense in this particular matter.
When we come to the supplementary estimates, once these matters are before the house I shall be able to indicate on the basis of
anticipated agreement with the provinces as a result of the conference of last Monday and Tuesday, what I might reasonably expect in terms of dollars and cents we might be able to do in trying to begin at long last to do something on a national basis in connection with this problem.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Research?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Research and treatment. Research in connection with arthritis is on a different basis. In the case of cancer, you can have research carried on in laboratories, as I shall ultimately indicate, as well as research carried on under treatment. In connection with arthritis, Doctor Wallace Graham, and these others tell me that there is a closer relationship between treatment and research. In other words, pure research in the case of arthritis does not exist as it does in cancer. You can more readily put a man to work in a laboratory on cancer.


Arthur Leroy Smith: You have it right in front of you?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is right. With regard to cancer, as I indicated last session to the house, it is one of the great killers, taking annually about 14,000 lives in this country. It seemed to us in the department that, while jurisdictionally health is a matter for the provinces, the same impetus which drove us to defeat the enemies of freedom should cause us to try to defeat the enemies of man in days of peace; and cancer is certainly one of those diseases and enemies.
I might say that in the Department of National Health and Welfare I have found this, that whatever may be the relationship between the provincial authorities and the central government, traditionally or actually, thanks to the successful functioning of the dominion council of health, I cannot, as Minister of National Health and Welfare, complain about the collaboration that I. as minister, have had with the provinces of Canada. Twice each year the dominion council of health meets to discuss in our department, under the chairmanship of the deputy minister of national health, problems of national and provincial interest in the field of health. Those conferences have allowed each of us to survey the field of national health without in any way creating the danger of intervening in places which are constitutionally reserved for other government authorities. And it was because of the experience at the first meeting of the dominion council of health which I attended a year ago. that last January we convoked a meeting of the cancer societies in Canada, the
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medical colleges in Canada, the provincial governments in Canada, the leading public bodies interested in providing financial assistance, the nursing association, and the like, with the thought of presenting to them this particular challenge, that, while in some provinces a special attempt was being made to eradicate or try to find some solution for cancer on the research side and to provide better diagnostic facilities and greater public information about the danger of cancer on the other, the time had come when we should try to co-ordinate in the national field what was now being done in several provincial jurisdictions. The result was the creation or the establishment of the National Cancer Institute of Canada.
I am pleased to say to the committee tonight that, as a result of that accomplishment, there began last September 12, twenty-seven different fundamental research projects on cancer in Canada. That, I think, is a significant achievement, for which I take no credit, and for which I am not asking that credit be given to the administration. The credit belongs to all who co-operated in creating that national body. That is in keeping with the tradition of this department, for our job on the national level is essentially and legally one of co-ordination of the activities carried on in the field of health by the various provinces.
When we come to the supplementary estimates I shall be able to indicate the financial assistance we are prepared to give, not only to the cancer institute but to the provinces, to enable them to carry on greater treatment facilities in respect of cancer, a greater system of education-and this is very important, because of the importance of early diagnosis- and greater financial resources to carry on research with regard to cancer.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Are these twenty-seven organizations co-ordinated, or are they duplications; or are they on separate problems in connection with the same matter.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I might say that the national cancer institute is a non-governmental national body. But they have agreed that the agency that should pass upon all applications for research projects should be the medical division of the national research council.


Arthur Leroy Smith: The clearing house?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, the clearing house. That body is made up of some of the most eminent professional and medical men in this country. At this stage there is no duplication; but there may be duplication within the third year, on the theory that you do not

necessarily engage in further effort when there is a duplication of research. A man might be engaged in one place on a particular research project, and another research scientist somewhere else might be engaged in the same field.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Diabetes, for example.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, diabetes is a good example. When Doctor Banting made his discovery it was based upon work done by a doctor at Yale, whose work in turn was being duplicated by scientists elsewhere.
I merely mention these two bodies to indicate that whatever may be the constitutional difficulties, there has grown up an opportunity through the dominion council of health to circumvent provincial boundaries to try to get common agreement with respect to action, and a proper assessment of which body is best fitted by any standard to deal with particular health problems. When, as I say, we come to the supplementary estimates I shall be able to particularize in much greater detail.
Then, the hon. member from Winnipeg spoke about treatment of the blind. Let me say simply this, that I cannot disagree with what he said, for I feel that this is a field where caution should not be underlined. What we all want, regardless of party, is to do the best we can in this important field of human endeavour.
I agree in the main with what he has said with regard to spending too much. There is something I should like to tell the committee, and I think this is the first time it has been said. Last year we reduced the age at which blind people could receive what I think is improperly called an old age pension-it is a pension which is paid under the Old Age Pensions Act-from forty to twenty-one years. I suggested to my officers that we should at once give consideration to the implications of the step we were taking and ask ourselves whether we were doing enough to prevent blindness, whether we were doing enough to try to improve the eyesight of people who, unless improvement was brought about, would ultimately grow into total blindness and be beyond the pale of improvement.
We have now proposed a scheme to all the provinces whereby, if they agree to spend twenty-five cents, we will contribute seventy-five cents toward the treatment of selected cases from among those people in receipt of pensions who are partially blind and try to improve their eyesight in the expectancy that such improvement will not only give them the freedom they want but will also relieve them from the pension rolls. Thus far we have

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been able to conclude one agreement, with the province of New Brunswick, but I have every hope and expectancy that within the next few months we shall be able to conclude similar agreements with all the provinces. Thus a man of, say twenty-three years of age with thirty per cent vision, who is in receipt of a pension under the pensions act will be taken in hand to see what we can do to improve his eyesight and take him off the pension roll. This policy will be vigorously pursued.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is this proposal being made to the provinces apart from the program recently announced by the Prime Minister?


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is a separate program. Mention has been made that we are spending more now in this department by some $80,000,000 than is being spent in the Department of National Defence. Roughly speaking, that is true. I am glad to say that is true. I do not for one moment minimize the importance of national defence at this time in our history, but I do think that if there is one department-I am assuming now that the money appropriated is properly spent-where we cannot measure results by dollars and cents, it is surely this department.
Without being adjudged irresponsible, I have endeavoured to put forward the point of view that wherever we can, by ourselves or in collaboration with the provinces, bring about improvement in health standards of our people, we should seek to do so. That is the only apology I have to offer for our expenditures. I am not referring to that as criticism by the hon. member for Eglinton, because he did not offer it in that vein. It was simply an observation he made, pointing out the growing importance of the department.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is S113.000.0CO more than national defence, not $80,000,000.


William Irvine: That is the best kind of defence.


Paul Joseph James Martin: As someone says, I think that is a pretty good kind of defence. The hon. member for Eglinton asked a number of questions. He asked about medical research. As the committee knows, there is provision in the new national health program for research on a basis higher than we have ever gone before and, I find on examination, higher than any other federal state in the world. When we come to those estimates I shall be glad to particularize.
In the meantime I can indicate that through the national research council, medical division,
the sum of $300,000 is currently being spent in the field of medical research. The Department of Veterans Affairs carries on clinical research in its major centres, notably, as I indicated earlier, with regard to arthritis. The Department of National Health and Welfare supports research projects in connection with the administration of Indian and Eskimo medical services.
I should' like to make a digression at this stage. With regard to tuberculosis, the fact is that one per cent of our population is responsible for twelve per cent of the tuberculosis we have in this country. The tubercular rate is very high among our Indians and Eskimos. It may be that some day someone may be open to criticism for the amount of money we are spending in this field, but I make no apology for it. In 1927 we were spending about $700,000 on Indian health; last year we spent $5,000,000, and this year we are going to spend approximately $7,500,000.
I am not saying that is adequate by any means, but it is adequate in relation to our ability to get the necessary professional skill to keep in touch with and be consistent with the program we are gradually developing. Hon. members who live in western Canada will appreciate the work being done by the Indian health section of this department. There is our Charles Camsell hospital at Edmonton with 350 beds. I am told by those who are in a better position to know that it is one of the best tubercular institutions in Canada.
There is our institution at Coqualeetza with 200 beds and the new hospital at Nanaimo which ultimately will have 200 beds. Then there is the hospital at Brandon with 200 beds and at The Pas with 185 beds. These are institutions devoted exclusively to the cure of tuberculosis among Indians and Eskimos and they represent a program which was begun nearly two years ago.
Hospital costs which are terrific are increasing the budget of this section of the department. This represents an attempt to deal with 130,000 people, the total of our Indian and Eskimo population. I am sure the committee, regardless of political affiliation, will join with me in saying that we owe an obligation to these people to try to remove this terrible scourge from their midst. In doing that, we help ourselves, because in those areas where the native population is contiguous to the white population, one frequently finds that the tubercular rate among the white population is higher than in other centres further removed from the native population. So quite apart from the question of duty there is the question of self-interest. I do not want to
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prolong this discussion on Indian health; I simply made that digression to indicate the importance we attach to it.
The hon. member for Eglinton asked the number of employees in the department. As of April 31, 1948, the employees numbered:
Permanent	 305
Temporary	 2,031
2,330
That total does not include doctors on a part-time basis, who are scattered all over the country in the most hidden places, doing a remarkable service to bring medical attention to our native population. The reason for the high number of temporaries is that this is a new department. We are continually adding divisions in the light of our concept of new obligations. But since the beginning of the present year, the creation of permanent positions in lieu of temporary positions has been given considerable attention. Authority has been sought from the civil service commission for a departmental quota of permanent positions, and the civil service commission advised only last week that they are taking steps to put into permanent capacity a very large percentage of those now in the temporary bracket. Just as soon as the probationary period has expired, this section of those now in the temporary class will be given permanent status.
With regard to educational and informational publicity, I would say, in reply to the hon. member for Eglinton, "that the estimates for this year aggregate $409,350, whereas last year they aggregated $471,199, or a reduction of S61.S49. He questioned whether the actual expenditure for last year would not show that we were asking for more this year than last. I might say that I have consented to the reduction with the greatest, reluctance, because I feel that one of the best things we can do in this department as a national body, having in mind the constitutional responsibility of the provinces, is to assist them in the field of education; and if anyone does not think there is not an opportunity in the field of information for the work that is being carried on by films and by pamphlets and by publications I would be only too happy to show him convincing proof from both provincial and municipal governments and school authorities that the opposite is the case.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I asked the minister to give the actual expenditure on educational and informational publicity last year, but he simply repeated the figures I gave.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Our estimates this year actually total $409,350. and last year. 8471.199.
[M>
Martin.]
Our expenditures and commitments last year totalled $439,262. Our estimates this year represent a reduction from this figure of $29,912.
My hon. friend asked other questions with which I propose to deal when we come to the particular items. But he did raise one matter that I should like to mention to the committee now, so that the members will have these figures before them when they are considering the supplementary estimates in relation to the new health program of the government.
I have reference to hospital admissions in Canada. The reports of the dominion bureau of statistics show that the number of hospital admissions in Canaria increased from 574.489 in 1938 to 1,365,928 in 1945. To put it in another way, the index has risen from a base of 100 to 237. Comparable figures on the number of beds are not immediately available. However, the total number of patient-under hospital care rose from 58 per 1.000 of population in 1932 to 110 per 1,000 in 1944. Many factors enter into this. There is a greater tendency to use hospitals, on account of changes in the way we live and changes in medical practice. There is also a more rapid turnover of patients, as a result of the shortening of many illnesses by the use of new drugs such as penicillin, which means that one bed serves more patients than ever before, and there is also the spread of health insurance schemes, all of which have played a part in changing the statistical picture.
The hon. member for Eglinton asked a question with regard to T.B. statistics. The figures for 1947 are not yet available. The increase mentioned by the hon. gentleman between
1945	and 1946 is probably not significant when the general trend is noted. The death rate in 1900 was 200 per 100.000 of population, and in
1946	it was 47-2 per 100.000. The rate varies from 17-5 in Saskatchewan to 70-4 in Quebec. But I agree that, in spite of the tremendous improvement which has been made we cannot be satisfied until we have had, with rpgard to tuberculosis, the same results that we have had with regard, for instance, to diphtheria.
The last observation I want to make in a general way at this stage is that the estimates this year are naturally over-shadowed by the important announcement made by the Prime Minister, but I wish to say at this stage that we did have on Monday and Tuesday of this week-I am not now going to give the results of our conference with the provinces-an exploratory conference with them which I think I can describe as being more than satisfactory. The committee may wonder why that conference was called before I had had

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an opportunity of having appropriated the estimates involved in the announcement made by the Prime Minister. I must accept full responsibility for that anticipated action. The reason it was done was that I felt the bouse and the country generally would want both the provinces and the federal government to begin at the earliest possible moment to implement the program, which is dependent upon action by both provincial and federal governments, and so, in order to avoid delay, I called the conference long before the moneys were appropriated by parliament, in the expectation that parliament would, of course, appropriate the sum of money involved in the new health policy. There is a great deal of ground work to be done. The provinces have to appraise their situation, and giving them this opportunity to assess their needs and exchange information with us may well mean the saving of some weeks. I thought it was only meeting what I felt would be the public wish as well as parliament's wash that there should be no delay in trying to set in motion the machinery by which this program is to be made more readilj- effective.
I do not think I have now anything else to say, except that the suggestion made for the setting up of a committee dealing with both health and welfare matters is one which is receiving attention. The suggestion has much merit, and I am hoping that I shall be able to take some definite steps at a later date in connection with it.


Arthur Leroy Smith: In giving a comparison of hospital admissions in Canada, the minister used the years 1938 and 1945. It might help if he could tell us how many hospital beds we had in 1938 and how many in 1945. He put it in another way. He said that we had 58 hospital patients per 1,000 of population in 1932 and 110 patients per 1,000 of population in 1944. In other words, from those figures it looks as though we were losing ground in this health race. I took that from the answers which the minister gave. I have not had the opportunity of calculating the percentage by which the thing is overcoming us. The figures are even more startling than I thought they might be. Therefore at some time before this matter is finally dealt with, I wonder whether the minister could give us the number of beds for the years in which he has hospital beds.


Paul Joseph James Martin: As the hon. gentleman knows, the program announced by the Prime Minister includes grants for assistance to hospital construction. When we come to deal with that I intend to review the matter in greater detail than under the circumstances I
think should be done now. I will give an answer specifically to the question, indicating the estimated shortage now, based upon two national surveys and our proposed expectancy of the result, in terms of cutting down the bed shortage, by the new program.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I also want the minister's view as to whether or not the suggestion I make is correct that we are losing out in the health race. In other words, is illness beating us? Is it on the increase as compared with the increase of population in the country? I think the minister understands what I have in mind. I realize fully that in these days more people are using the hospitals than they did formerly. For instance, many years ago babies were born at home and mothers were not hospitalized. That day has gone, and was gone prior to the year the minister gave me. I know that many mothers go to the hospital; my own wife, for example. I have a child thirty-five years of age. She is not exactly a child, but she was once. My children were born at home. I was opposed to the idea but naturally I did not count in that picture.
Take mining camps. This is where the doctors are bright. In a mining camp you usually have a hospital which is owned by the miners themselves. This is the way it operates in the part of the country from which I come. I do not see many doctors in the house at the moment. There are two here. Instead of going to the miner's home, the doctors found that it was much simpler to send him to the hospital. They had a contract with the hospital, and they can take care of half a dozen men in the hospital at one time instead of calling at half a dozen homes. I am not saying this in criticism. Were I a doctor I would do the same thing and perhaps do a great deal more of it and thereby save time for other people.
I pass along to one remark the minister made which I should like him to clarify. He said that the white population, contiguous to Indian reservations or to Eskimo people, were more subject to tuberculosis than other whites in Canada. I should like to ask whether or not the minister thinks active operation of tuberculosis among Indians and Eskimos can possibly have anything to do with that? In other words, is not the cause of tuberculosis among these people largely the conditions under which the patient, as he becomes later, is living? Does the minister really think the white population are infected with tuberculosis because they are living alongside Indians?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I was only quoting, without naming him, the work of Doctor Tisdall, who
514?
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made perhaps the most extensive survey ever made among the Indian population. I am referring particularly to the great survey he made among the Indians in the James bay district.


Arthur Leroy Smith: That is down east. I am quite unfamiliar with James bay. Only in the last two weeks I read of the wonderful job Doctor Tisdall had done, for which I am sure the people of Canada should be very grateful, even though many of us may not have read it.
I now turn to what I began with, namely arthritis. Do I summarize the position correctly when I say this? May I say, Mr. Chairman, that I say this without even a thought of blaming t'he minister, the department or anyone else. Is this not the present position with respect to arthritis? No one in the world today knows the cause of it. I think that is a fair statement. In January I myself spent a couple of weeks at perhaps the most famous institution of its kind in the world, and I certainly got that impression from the place in which I was. The minister said he hoped that, following this war, we would get the impetus that the investigation of tuberculosis received after the first great war. All of us will, I am sure, join the minister in that hope. But does it not resolve itself to this? By research, and particularly by treatment, because treatment is research-I mean a doctor has a dozen cases-a doctor learns something. An institution has a dozen cases. The doctor is in a much better position to make comparisons and therefore come to a conclusion which is more likely to be right than the conclusion of a person who has only a few cases.
I want to say just a word about an institution at Banff.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I knorv it very well.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I am not for a moment saying it is successful or unsuccessful.


Paul Joseph James Martin: They have done good work.


Arthur Leroy Smith: In this House of Commons we must not mention names or do anything of that kind. But is it not more likely that, by segregating these people in a place where many observations can be made by competent medical people, we shall more quickly arrive at a conclusion as to the origin of the disease and its treatment? Today, as I understand it, all we can do is to ease the pain. At the moment we know nothing as to the origin of the disease or as to its eradication. The only thing we can do at the moment is to ease the suffering of these people.

The minister gave some figures which are even higher than I thought they were. We in Canada have a population of around twelve million people. The minister mentioned that a hundred thousand people were suffering severely. From -that, I gather that the people to whom he referred were crippled by this disease. He then said that possibly 700,000-


Paul Joseph James Martin: Between 700,000 and 800,000. That is based upon a survey of 1938.


Arthur Leroy Smith: What does that mean? We are a population of twelve million people. Of that number 800,000 or
900.000	are suffering the pains of arthritis. I speak with some knowledge. I have just a little idea of what they are going through. I am one of those fortunate people in whom the disease was arrested. My good friend, the hon. member for Lanark, told me that sometimes the disease did arrest itself. I happened to be one of the hundreds to whom that happened. When it will start again I have no idea. But when we admit that 800,000 or
900.000	people out of 12,000,000-and it affects people of all ages-one-thirteenth or one-fourteenth of our total population are suffering and are apt to be crippled by this illness, then it seems to me that we have never known a greater national emergency.
Let us put it in this way. For the moment leave out the faculty of human suffering. Let us accept it on the basis of our economy. You take 800,000 out of 12,000,000 and you have cut down your working force, your earning force, your producing force. You have taken that number from our economy, because the minister will admit that the incidence below manhood and womanhood is not large. It does strike down young people, it is true, but I do not think the incidence among children is nearly so heavy as it is among those who have gone on to manhood and womanhood.
I give the minister credit; I honour him, for the conferences which he has called. I say to the members of this committee that no war has ever removed from our working forces that number of people, and one hesitates to contemplate the mass suffering which goes on among 800,000 people. If that is not a national emergency I never knew one.
As far as I am concerned, and I am sure I speak for all members of the committee, I will uphold the minister's hands in every way I can. Let us regard it from the economic side, if you like, a matter of money. But let us not do that. Let us rather be humanitarian and save these poor people from suffering, which is unnecessary if we can only find the remedy. Why have we not found it?

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I have consulted many physicians, and they have given me the same answer. I say, "Why is it that there are so many people suffering from rheumatism?" I am told by competent X-ray people that I have enough rheumatism in my back to cripple me, but still I can dance a jig the odd time if I have sufficient fortification from the hon. member for Davenport. However, they all tell me that the reason we have not advanced further is that, while it is chronic, it is not fatal. That is true, and it is a statement which reflects no credit on the people of Canada or on the House of Commons.
Once more I assure, indeed I reassure, the minister that I will support him to the limit, as I am sure the house will, in any measures he can reasonably take to eliminate this scourge of all scourges, speaking of pain, from our midst.


Mr. McIVOR:: I have just a word to say. The minister visited the lakehead during the past three sessions and spent weeks with the Indian agent, going through the Indian reserves, and, like a doctor, he was diagnosing the cases, finding out- the needs of the Indians throughout the community in northwestern Ontario. Then he came back to the head of the lakes and visited the sanatorium. He visited men, women and children there, and I was surprised at the great kindness he showed to children who were ill. After that, the sanatorium board called him into conference and he got an earful. The result was that he backed up a former promise that a grant would be made by the dominion government to build an extension to our sanatorium. The report I received yesterday was that this extension has been made possible by this grant. On behalf of the board, I express our appreciation to the minister and his workers.
One other thing. During the past year, or more nearly two years, a new treatment has been introduced for tuberculosis. It is known as streptomycin. It is injected, and I can assure the committee that it works. But it costs a great deal. When it first came out it cost 83,000. and then it was cut down to nearly half. I have a close friend who took the treatment. At Christmas he collapsed, and now he is being discharged from the hospital by the first of July as cured. I hope this treatment can be made available to people who cannot pay 81,400 or more. Once more I express, on behalf of the sanatorium board, appreciation of the work of the minister and the splendid results that have followed.


William Gourlay Blair: I had not expected to speak on this subject again because, as I stated before
the dinner recess, I wished to reserve my talk on matters of health until the introduction of the supplementary estimates, but the hon. member for Calgary West has introduced the question of arthritis. I have never missed a chance to say something about arthritis. It seems to be a hopeless disease and in the past it has been regarded in that light. When I say it is hopeless, I mean we have not yet found a cure for it. Research has been carried on, but we have not found a cure.
A situation has arisen where, in the public hospitals, in the small hospitals in the towns, and the city hospitals, the main public wards are filled with these people. Many of them have spent valuable resources in trying to get better. They get into the public wards and there they fill beds which are required for acute cases.
The hon. member mentioned 600,000 cases of chronic arthritis, but there are 125,000 acutely suffering. The point I make, however, is this. I was interested in the minister's account of what is being done at Sunnybrook. I have criticized that program before and I intend to criticize it again, because I do not feel that it is reaching the general medical practitioner. It is not reaching the man who has to do with cases. It is not reaching the medical schools, and nothing is being done in that way. While Sunnybrook can do research, and we are glad it is helping returned soldiers, it is not reaching the mass of the population.
It is all very well to carry on there, but I have seen patients in the public wards because there was nowhere else for them to go. The main thing is that if we are to deal with this problem we must start at the root of things.
Mention is made of specialists in arthritis. I do not know where they are, because you cannot specialize in something when you do not know the answer. I will say, however, that there are pseudospecialists who are taking advantage of these people by offering certain cures and taking their money, while little result is shown. We can, however, do something with this disease in the way of stopping some of these people from becoming hopeless cripples, and that requires, as has been suggested, some special apparatus. Some of this material is not available to general practitioners who come into contact with the greater number of patients.
Physiotherapy can do a great deal, and bed rest, complete rest. The hon. member for Calgary West mentioned hospitalization, and so did the minister later. This also comes into the question of arthritis. People are going into the hospital now for the reason that there is a
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shortage of trained nurses in Canada. You cannot get a trained nurse any place. The other thing is the shortage of help in the home. Industrial plants have bought industrial health insurance for their people. People are afraid of the high cost of sickness. They just cannot afford to be sick.	.
But to get back to the people who are suffering from arthritis, in spite of the fact that I do not pose as a specialist, I have had practical experience in seeing these poor people who suffer. I cannot feel that a start in coping with this disease has been accomplished at Sunnybrook. You are only dealing with a specialized bunch of people.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is only part of what we are doing.


William Gourlay Blair: That is quite right. But the minister mentioned the impetus which will be given. It will take more than a few cases in Sunnybrook to give an impetus to this treatment of arthritis. This subject is poorly taught in the medical schools. There should be specialized lectures, not only on the cases of arthritis but on the differential diagnosis of the various types of arthritis. I myself found something like fifty or seventy different types of diagnosis in arthritis. Various cures were presented for various forms of arthritis. I actually found seventy different types of rheumatic diseases.


Paul Joseph James Martin: There are two hundred.


William Gourlay Blair: 
Paul Joseph James Martin: You know more about it. But I am told that there are about two hundred.


William Gourlay Blair: The point I am trying to make is that you must get at the root of the matter. Doctors going out of the medical schools, before they start to intern, should be taught more about whatever causes we know could produce this condition. They should be taught differential diagnosis. Failing a cure at the present time, they should be taught some treatment to stop these people from becoming cripples; because once these joints are anky-losed, there is no chance of doing anything whatever for them. Then, when these doctors go out as new practitioners they will know something about it, and they will have some experience when they go into practice. There are few known arthritis clinics in the world -any place, although there are a few. The government could give a grant in the form' of travelling scholarships to students, our gradua-ate young doctors who are interested, and let them get some specialization.
[Mr. Blair I


Paul Joseph James Martin: Our new program will do that.


William Gourlay Blair: That is the idea; get some specialists in the profession who know something about the disease. Then we could help the general practitioners and we could help out some of these general hospitals. Possibly the number of beds for chronic cases may take care of some of that, but treatment must be given. The average small general hospital has not the facilities that are available at Sunnybrook, nor has the average doctor those facilities.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I point out that is why we have given more for the chronic beds than for the acute ones.
'Mr. BLAIR: Yes. But let me point out to the minister that this program for chronic beds has been in operation in Ontario for some time before he introduced it.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am not saying that we are novel in this matter. I am just indicating the fact.


William Gourlay Blair: To get back to the matter of beds the minister must remember this. Hospital beds may now cost, let us say, $9,000 to $10,000 a bed; the figure has run beyond all bounds; and even with what the government adds to the amount given by the province of Ontario, nevertheless beds will cost about $2,500 more than they did prior to the war. So you are still going to have difficulty in getting beds. I refer particularly to beds for those people afflicted with a chronic disease. So we must get back to the basis of things. We must teach this subject in the medical schools. We must provide equipment whereby the people can be helped. We must have an educational campaign, not for the public alone but for the doctors. It should be a campaign to make people not regard this disease as being hopeless. It should be a campaign to save the poor people from having crippled joints. We can put into operation certain knowledge we have. If we do not know how to cure this disease, we can at least do something to stop this horrible suffering.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is what we are trying to do.


Mr. HANSELL:: I notice that it is one minute to eleven, Mr. Chairman; and since I have about a ten-minute speech, and since it is too valuable to split off after introducing it, I would suggest that you call it eleven o'clock.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Would the hon. member allow me to take up that minute of time for the purpose of asking some questions?


Ernest George Hansell: Go ahead.

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Donald Methuen Fleming: There are several points as to which I asked for information which the minister has not yet given. The first was with regard to family allowances. I ask him if he would put the tables on the record now, so that we can have them in advance before we reach that point in the estimates. Would he please do that?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will do that. I thought I had it here. It is ready. I will see that it gets on the record.


William Henry Golding: Shall the item carry?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Just a minute, Mr. Chairman. The minister will put that on the record so that we will have it, will he?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will do that.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am now producing table of family allowances comparable with the
table shown at pages 4465 to 4467 of Hansard of last year. I hereby attach the tables to date.


William Ross Macdonald: Has the minister permission to table these documents?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Donald Methuen Fleming: They will be printed in Hansard?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Angus MacInnis: Just a minute. Where do these tables come from?


Paul Joseph James Martin: From the department. They are the family allowances statistics. We table them every year.


Angus MacInnis: That is all right.


Donald Methuen Fleming: We have had similar tables in previous sessions. It is just in order to get them on the record.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The tables are as follows:



TREASURY OFFICE


[Stage Direction]
Statistics based on April, 1948, Family Allowances Payments
			Average	Average	
Number of	'Number of Allowance Allowance	TotalProvince	Families	Children	per Child per Family	AmountPrince Edward Island 	12,756	31,904	$5.96	$14.90	$ 190,046Nova Scotia 	87.262	202.318	5.94	13.78	1,202,776New Brunswick 	68,728	175,934	5.82	14.89	1,023,391Quebec 	470,272	1,264,276	5.81	15.63	7,352,757Ontario 	556,881	1,099,088	5.98	11.80	6,574,504Manitoba 	100,299	207,965	5.98	12.40	1,244,127Saskatchewan 	114,649	257,827	5.97	13.43	1,540,415Alberta 	120,185	256,489	5.99	12.78	1,536,338British Columbia 	140,237	263,048	5.97	11.20	1,570,163Northwest Territories and Yukon..	3,257	7,060	5.83	12.65	41,2021,674,526	3,765,909	$5.91	$13.30	$22,275,719Note: N.W.T. & Y. adjustment payments not	included above 	. 1,687 $22,277,406
Family Allowance Payments Since Inception, July, 1945
1945-46	1946-47	1947-48	Total
Nova Scotia	$ 9,519,446.00 $ 13,358,417.07 $ 14,207,957.82 $ 37,085,820.89
Prince Edward Island	
1,618,784.00	2,192,044.00	2,256,477.00	6,067,305.00New Brunswick	
8,112,008.50	11,394,426.02	12,086,891.93	31,593,326.45Quebec	
57,962,066.56	82,389,966.72	87,157,243.46	227,509,276.74Ontario	
49,208,124.09	70,325,914.70	77,328,534.50	196,862,573.29Manitoba	
9,896,231.30	14,007,061.21	14,798,436.82	38,701,729.33Saskatchewan	
13,194,768.00	18,119,791.87	18,561,329.55	49,875,889.42Alberta	
12,262,073.00	17,159,488.00	18,181,662.50	47,603,223.50British Columbia	
10,693,139.00	15,722,045.50	18,012,188.75	44,427,373.25
Northwest Territories and the
Yukon	 165,506.53	471,376.50	574,470.00	1,211,353.03
[Stage Direction]
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Donald Methuen Fleming: There are two other
questions.


William Henry Golding: Order.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Might I just get this on the record, Mr. Chairman? It may save some time later on. I asked the minister if he would give the total expenditures last year on travelling expenses on all items. Can he please give us that?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes. The figure is $448,766.06, plus commitments in the amount of $34,918.35. With regard to this, may I say that I believe the way for our officials to help in the coordination of national health is not to stick at their desks in Ottawa, but to get out in the field as frequenly as possible.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The other question was as to the actual expenditures on the items. The minister indicated to me that he preferred not to give that information in advance.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will deal with the matter item by item, as we did last year.


Donald Methuen Fleming: That will take a great deal of time.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I think it is the most satisfactory way by which to deal with the matter.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I venture to disagree with the minister. It means that we must ask the question on every item. If the minister will put the figures on the record, it will save a great deal of time which will be taken in asking questions.


Paul Joseph James Martin: As we come to each item, I shall be glad to give that information without being prompted.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Very well. Will the minister give the total?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will give my hon. friend anything he asks for.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Will he give us the total of expenses now?


Paul Joseph James Martin: When we come to each item I shall be glad to give the information on it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister is talking about giving it on each item.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am talking about giving the total now.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I shall be glad to give the information with regard to each item as we come' to it. My hon. friend and I had the same argument last year. I intend to give him the information he wants, but not in the form in which he wants it, because I do not think it is the most practical way of doing it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: When shall we get the total of expenditures, not the figures segregated into items?


Paul Joseph James Martin: After the last item.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Ritchie MacNicol: What will be the business on Monday?


Alphonse Fournier: If the Minister of Finance is here, we shall consider the two resolutions standing in his name, the one concerning the Tariff Board Act and the other to authorize the Canadian National Railways to issue securities to meet capital expenditures or capital indebtedness. Then we shall proceed with the following bills: No. 334, to amend the Land Titles Act; No. 340, respecting the supplying of electrical power in the Northwest Territories; No. 341, to amend the Yukon Act; No. 337, to amend the criminal code.
When these have been considered we shall move to go into supply, and call one new department. Then we shall proceed with the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare, Trade and Commerce, Reconstruction and Supply; but I cannot say in which order we shall take these different matters.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Does the minister mean merely that he does not know in what order the departments in supply will be taken, but that the other matters will be taken in the order indicated?


Alphonse Fournier: I am not sure whether we can proceed first with the resolutions or the bills. Three bills are in the name of the Minister of Mines and Resources, and one is in the name of the Minister of Justice. I cannot say exactly the order in which they will be taken. However we shall try to take them some time during the day.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Which new department will be taken?


Alphonse Fournier: The Prime Minister's office.
It being five minutes after eleven o'clock, the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:
DEPARTMENT OP TRADE AND COMMERCE Foreign trade services-
441.	Commercial relations and foreign tariffs division, including contribution of $2,800 to International Customs Tariffs Bureau, $102,513.

Supply-Transport
442.	Export division, $107,564.
443.	Import division, including contributions as detailed in the estimates, $132,084.
444.	Industrial Development Division, $27,863.
445.	Trade commissioner service, including payment of compensation to trade commissioners for loss of furniture and effects, under regulations approved by the governor in council, $1,999,571.
446.	Trade publicity and advertising in Canada and abroad, $303,308.
447.	Exhibitions, including a contribution of $1,000 to the international bureau of Exhibitions and, subject to regulations to be approved by the governor in council, to authorize pro rata refunds to be made to lessees of space at the Canadian International Trade Fair of rentals monies received from such lessees determined to be in excess of the expenses incurred by Canada in promoting the Canadian International Trade Fair, such refunds to be made from the revenue received, $647,401.
Standards division-
448.	Administration, $81,869.
449.	Electricity and gas inspection services, including administration of the Electricity and Fluid Exportation Act, $452,733.
450.	Laboratory, $33,606.
451.	Precious Metals Marking Act, $18,560.
452.	Weights and measures inspection services, $515,837.
Dominion Bureau of Statistics-
453.	Administration, $204,887.
454.	Statistics, including contribution of $2,474 to the Inter-American Statistical Institute, $2,548,973.
455.	Census of population, $591,411.
Wheat and grain division-
456.	Salaries and other expenses, $41,737.
Canada Grain Act-
457.	Administration, $112,129.
458.	Operation and maintenance, including inspection, weighing, registration, etc., $1,997,864.
459.	Canadian government elevators, including equipment, $727,049.
460.	Canadian government travel bureau, to assist in promoting the tourist business in Canada, $1,038,046.



DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

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520.	Issue of radio receiving licences-(Transport Department only), $571,439.
521.	Director of merchant seamen, $19,500.
522.	Acquisition of properties in Canada for U.S. authorities, $5,000.
Marine service-
523.	Nautical service, $71,300.
Railway and steamship service-
524.	Degaussing of vessels, $5,000.
525.	Steep Rock mines-construction, $256,900.
526.	Steep Rock mines-subsidy, $240,000.
Air service-
(Control and supervision vested in the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply by order in council P.C. 529 of 10th February, 1948)
Civil aviation division-airways and airports-
527.	Operation and maintenance of municipal and other airports, $448,557.
528.	Care, operation and maintenance of Royal Canadian Air Force airfields transferred to the Department of Transport, $433,500.
529.	North East (Crimson) staging route- maintenance of airfields, $23,589.
Northwest communication system-
530.	Additions and betterments, including transport equipment-capital, $513,780.
531.	To provide for the difference between the expenditures for operations and maintenance and revenue accruing from operations during the year ending March 31, 1949, not exceeding, $728,412.

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National Harbours Board-
556.	Advances to National Harbours Board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1948 on any or all of the following accounts:-
(a)	Retirement of maturing debentures- Saint John, $282,960.
(b)	Reconstruction and capital expenditures -Halifax, $2,605,775; Saint John, $2,000,000; Quebec, $122,200; Churchill, $50,000; generally unforeseen and miscellaneous, $200,000; total, $4,977,975.
Less amount to be expended from replacement funds, $426,000-$4,551,975.
Deficits-Tr ansport-
557.	Amount required to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 194849 to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made from time to time by the national company to the Minister of Finance and to be applied by the national company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) in the operation of the Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals arising in the calendar year 1948, $904,600.
National Harbours Board-
558.	To provide for payment to National Harbours Board, of the amount hereinafter set forth, to be applied in payment of the deficit (exclusive of interest on dominion government advances and depreciation on capital structures) arising in the calendar year 1948, in the operation of the Churchill harbour, $94,000.
559.	Advances to National Harbours Board with interest at a rate to be fixed by the governor in council for such period and upon such terms and conditions as the governor in council may determine, to be applied1 in payment of deficits resulting from the operations of the Jacques Cartier bridge, $303,810.
Loans and investments-
560.	Advances to National Harbours Board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1948 on any or all of the following accounts: reconstruction and capital expenditures-Montreal, $863,105; Vancouver, $115,000; total, $968,105.
Less amount to be expended from replacement funds, $100,228; total, $867,877.
5849-326J
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Monday, June 14, 1948