STANDING ORDERS

[Stage Direction]
Sixth report of the standing committee on standing orders.-Mr. Bertrand (Prescott).


Hon. COLIN GIBSON (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, as a matter of privilege I should like to refer to an article which appeared in
Wheat Board Report

the press last night and this morning concerning a question asked yesterday by the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Stewart). The article states:
State Secretary Gibson said today in the Commons that applicants for civil service-positions were asked to state their colour so that the civil service commission could place them in the "proper position."
The words "proper position" are in quotation marks. Those were not the words I used. As will be found in Hansard, what I said was:
. . . the question on the application form as to colour is to enable the commissioners, when an application is received from a member of the negro race, to place the applicant in a position which will be congenial.



WHEAT BOARD


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I wish to lay on the table the report of the Canadian wheat board for the crop year ending 1946. These two copies are typed. Every effort has been made for days and weeks past to get this report ready as quickly as possible so that it could be presented to the house at the earliest possible day. All I have to present today are the two typewritten copies. Printed copies will be here, I am told, by Monday or Tuesday. I move that this report be referred to the committee on agriculture. The officials of the Canadian wheat board will be here from the middle of the week onwards.


Mr. WRIGHT:: Will last year's report be presented at the same time for consideration?


James Angus MacKinnon: Last year's report will be available for discussion before the committee on agriculture at the same time, as well as any reports that have not heretofore been discussed.


Mr. BRACKEN:: Can the minister say what the average price was for the wheat sold outside the British wheat agreement?


James Angus MacKinnon: I gave the house the figures for wheat sales for the past two weeks. Does the hon. member refer to the whole period that we have been selling No. II wheat?


John Bracken: I was asking for it for the past year.


James Angus MacKinnon: I can get that, Mr. Speaker, but it seems to me that as the matter will be referred to the committee, the leader of the opposition can get the information at that time.
Motion agreed to and report referred to agriculture committee.



NOVA SCOTIA-REPORTED CESSATION OF BRITISH PURCHASES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Bracken: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I have not had an opportunity to give him notice of it, so I do not expect him to answer it immediately unless he happens to have the information at hand. In view of a recent announcement by the minister of agriculture of Nova Scotia, as reported in the press, to the effect that Canadian apples are likely to be cut from the list of British purchases made in Canada, will the minister make a statement to the house as to what the actual situation is? What may the house expect from the government by way of policy to meet this situation? I do not need to mention the importance of this question to the producers of apples in Nova Scotia.


James Angus MacKinnon: I believe this question should properly be dealt with by the Department of Agriculture and possibly the Department of Trade and Commerce. I shall look into it, and if I am not here to answer it immediately, I will see that an answer is given.


John Bracken: Will the minister see that it is directed to the proper department?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.



FEED GRAINS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. THOMAS REID (New Westminster):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I am sorry I did not have time to give him notice of it. In view of the urgency of the matter, I would ask the minister to take particular note of it and give an answer on Monday. Many hon. members from British Columbia, including the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) and the hon. member for Victoria, B.C., (Mr. Mayhew), this morning received an urgent wire from the minister of agriculture of British Columbia drawing their attention to the fact that feed grains and coarse grains are being diverted from British Columbia and directed to the eastern provinces, as a result of which the dairy industry in British Columbia is facing a shortage of coarse grains.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Thomas Reid: I am giving the minister notice of my question.


An hon. MEMBER:: Sit down.


Thomas Reid: I will sit down for the Speaker, but for no one else.


Mr. SPEAKER:: I would ask the hon. member, if he is giving notice of a question, to be brief and to the point.


Thomas Reid: I thank you, Mr. Speaker, but I am endeavouring to be brief. I am asking the Minister of Trade and Commerce if he will give an answer on Monday with regard to the diversion of feed grains to the eastern provinces, leaving the dairymen in British Columbia destitute of grain.


James Angus MacKinnon: I should like to say a word in reply to the hon. member. I will see that his question receives the attention of the proper department. It is not a matter which comes wholly under the Department of Trade and Commerce.



PORT OF CHURCHILL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. R. KNIGHT (Saskatoon):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. In view of the fear expressed in British shipping circles, can the minister assure the house that an adequate labour force will be on hand at the port of Churchill during the shipping season to handle grain and goods to the full capacity of the port?


Hon. LIONEL CHEVRIER (Minister of Transport):: The hon. gentleman's question
was directed to me just a short while ago. While I have not a full report, I think I have sufficient information to answer the question. He asks whether there will be sufficient labour at the port of Churchill to look after shipments of grain and goods to the United Kingdom. I must say to him first of all that it is not the responsibility of the national harbours board to look after stevedoring operations. That is the responsibility of the shipping firms and their agents. But in the past the national harbours board has followed the practice of recruiting a labour force in that area. It is willing to do that. I am informed by the port manager that some sixty-five or seventy men will be required to do that work, and we think it will be possible to get that force.
The hon. gentleman in his question goes on to ask if grain and goods to the full
capacity of the port can be handed by the
labour force. I must say to him that if his question is directed to mixed cargoes of grain and lumber, I do not think there will be a great deal of difficulty. If it is directed to lumber alone, then it will take an additional one hundred men, and I do not think it will be possible to recruit that force. However, the national harbours board will do its utmost to assist if notified of the labour force required. It has all facilities available at Churchill for general cargo. I wanted the hon. gentleman to keep in mind the fact that the responsibility for stevedoring is not that of the board but rather that of the shipping companies.


Mr. ISNOR:: If there is any question as
to the port of Churchill being able to handle these shipments, I suggest they be handled through the port of Halifax.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Golding in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE

[Stage Direction]
National health branch-
215.	Assistance to provinces for control of venereal diseases under regulations approved by the governor in council, $175,000.
Mr. FLEMING:: Will the minister give the expenditure under this item? I should like to have the breakdown of grants by provinces.


Hon. PAUL MARTIN (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Estimate for 1946-47, $175,000; expenditure for the same period, $171,850.29; unliquidated commitments, $1,242.05.


Donald Methuen Fleming: This item provides for assistance to the provinces for the control of venereal diseases under regulations approved by the governor in council. If the same basis of distribution is .in effect as was in effect during the previous year, the division is based, thirty per cent on the population, forty per cent on the extent of the venereal disease problem, and thirty per cent on the financial needs of the province. Will the minister give the distribution of the money to the provinces, please?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The net cash grants were as follows:
Prince Edward Island	 $ 4,297.94
Nova Scotia	 9,462.28
New Brunswick	 7,968.86
Quebec	 38,165.64
Ontario	 42,494 .'11
Manitoba	 10,585.88
Saskatchewan	 11,649.23
Alberta	  11,463.74
British Columbia	 12,665.32

Supply-Health and Welfare


Donald Methuen Fleming: The balance, I take it, represents that educational reserve?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is right.


Donald Methuen Fleming: And if I understand correctly that work of education, for which the sum of approximately $25,000 was reserved, is carried on directly under the federal Department of National Health and Welfare?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I think it is appreciated by all hon. members that this work in combating venereal disease is largely within the jurisdiction of the provinces, and that apart from extraordinary times such as existed during the war, wyhen the federal government had an opportunity to render more active assistance in this field, in normal times the field open to the federal government is somewhat limited. But I would like to ask the minister whether, apart from making these grants out of this sum of $175,000 a year, the federal government is doing anything to encourage or assist the provinces in developing more active measures for discovering the sources and extent of venereal disease. The minister is aware, as I hope the entire committee is aware, of an important step taken in recent months in Ontario, for instance, in connection with prenatal tests. I think it is of interest to the house to learn the results of those tests. This information was given to the press by the Ontario department of health, and appeared in various newspapers on May 15 of this year. The newspaper article states:
An average of 3,900 expectant mothers per month have been taking advantage of the Ontario health department's offer of one free prenatal examination by their own physician, it is shown in figures released at Queen's Park yesterday.
While the act authorizing this examination at the expense of the province was passed at the 1946 session, it did not become operative until October 1 last. Since that time and up until April 30 last, 27,332 women in 346 municipalities have been examined on this basis by 1,243 physicians. The province pays $5 for each examination upon which a report is submitted.
Department officials said "screening" of the reports to extract significant data from them is proceeding slowly and it is too early to comment upon this phase of the work. The incidence of "V.D." however, is below that anticipated.
I should like to add this observation, that of course the compilation of information as to the incidence of venereal disease is only one of the purposes of the free prenatal test; but having regard to .the results already obtained I do suggest to the minister that if anything can be done within the proper scope and function of his department to encourage other provinces to undertake the provision of

free prenatal tests, the advantages accruing not only in connection with combating venereal disease but in connection with combating other very serious inroads on the public health of the nation will be very greatly increased.


Mr. MacINNIS:: I should like to ask the minister one question in regard to this item. I have not been paying strict attention, and he may have replied to it already. What supervision does the federal department have in connection with this grant of $175,000 to see that it is properly used for the purpose for which it is made?


Paul Joseph James Martin: As the hon. gentleman will understand, this is primarily a function of the provinces, but we do help through the distribution of funds, the collection and compilation and analysis of statistical data concerning venereal infection, through the preparation of lay and professional educational material using all appropriate media, and through the provision of consultative professional medical services. We do try to encourage any provinces which may not seem to have done as much as others, by way of suggestions. At annual meetings of the dominion council of health, where all the provincial governments are represented through their deputy ministers, we have an opportunity of bringing to their attention what has been done in particular provinces where advances have been outstanding. The hon. member for Eglinton has just referred to something which is done in one specific province. At the last meeting of the council, about four weeks ago, the representative of Ontario indicated to the others what they had done. This kind of exchange of information is carried on. Then at the end of the fiscal year each provincial government submits a detailed statement of the expenditure of federal funds and the purposes for which those funds were used, including a detailed narrative report indicating the actual accomplishments of the venereal disease control programme in that province, accompanied by substantiating statistical information. Every effort is made to meet this problem.


Angus MacInnis: I am aware that this problem falls within provincial jurisdiction and that the federal department helps out. All I had in mind-and I think the minister has satisfactorily answered my question-is that if any province did not make proper use of the grants, in my opinion the grants should not be continued to that province. That was the purpose of my question.

Supply-Health and Welfare


Paul Joseph James Martin: The grant would not be continued in such case, but I am happy to say there has been no such instance as yet.


Angus MacInnis: I am happy to hear it.


Mr. CHURCH:: I want to ask the minister a question regarding the statement made last night by Doctor W. E. Gallie, dean of medicine of the university of Toronto, concerning the rural portions of the country outside the cities and towns. At a dinner given in his honour last night-he has been chief surgeon of the Toronto General Hospital for many years-he proposed that zones should be mapped out all over Canada for specialists in surgery, so they could have all the facilities which modern science and medicine have produced in recent years, particularly during the war. My question to the minister follows closely along the lines of what I had to say the other evening in reference to greater medical aid to these universities throughout our land that are doing such great work. After all is said and done, medical science has played a tremendous part in the life of the country, and important discoveries have been made in recent years. We are now on the verge of a great revolution in medicine and surgery; and in order that people in remote places may have the full benefit of scientific developments I believe the government would be well advised, by bonuses, subventions and subsidies, to support the type of federal aid suggested by Doctor Gallie, which people do not now receive. We know that patriotic citizens have helped hospitals, and that they have helped medical science and dental science but, owing to the heavy taxation they cannot carry the whole burden. I wish the minister would study this matter and confer with the authorities of the university of Toronto and other universities, to see if federal aid along the lines I have indicated cannot be provided. Perhaps the minister would make a statement in the matter.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. member, who is keenly interested in this matter, has spoken to me privately about it on several occasions. I believe he has spoken also to my colleague the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply under whose department the national research council operates. I too have been interested in this problem, and I may say to him that the matter to which he has referred is under active consideration.
As the hon. member knows, one of the eminent scientists of Ontario, Doctor C. H. Best, who by the way is a great friend of the hon. member, is one of the members of the medical research division of the national research council. Doctor Collip, Doctor Simard and several other distinguished scientists also serve on the committee which keeps this problem under constant review. While I am not in a position to make any further statement with regard to future prospects, I can say that the question raised by the hon. member is one of great importance and that, particularly as it affects cancer research, it is under active consideration.


Thomas Langton Church: Our worthy deputy chairman has been closely associated with a hospital in his own constituency, and I understand he has a daughter who is a nurse and a son-in-law who practices as a surgeon at Kamloops-Doctor Verrett, a returned soldier and former student of Doctor Gallie's. I have not had his consent to mention this fact, but I take the liberty of doing so.
Under a zoning system a young doctor who knows something about surgery would be most useful, and the poor people throughout the country would get some relief. Consider the Indians for a moment; they were here two hundred years before the English or the French, but they have not even yet any doctors or nurses to attend to their needs. In fact we have been trying for two years-to find out if they are citizens. The fact is that they were citizens long ago, and if that is so they ought to be given this service automatically.
I do hope the minister will consider this matter seriously during the recess. I am hopeful that in the supplementary estimates, before the close of the session, he will announce some kind of grant to men of science like Doctor Best, and many others. There are two or three such men at McGill and at Toronto and other universities, and there are men right across Canada engaged in medical science who could do this work.
In recent years, medical science, the brightest child of all the sciences, has made remarkable strides, with the result that today the life expectancy has been increased to the extent of ten or fifteen years. This has been brought about mainly through the development of preventive medicine, new scientific methods and new methods of surgery. I hope that instead of operating only a skeleton department which used to spend about a half a million dollars before the war,. the department will take a more active interest and expand accordingly. Before the war France and Germany operated under a plan whereby, instead of permitting their medical students to work on boats, or as cooks or in other occupations, during the summer months, they were conscripted by the state to help in scientific work. We can take a leaf out of their book in that regard and, instead of permitting these young students to do outside
Supply-Health and Welfare

work during the summer and then go to the United States, have them do some work connected with medical science.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
216.	Distribution of drugs under regulations approved by the governor in council, $50,000.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Was the full amount
spent?


Paul Joseph James Martin: All but $100.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
217.	Health insurance studies, $27,863.
Mr. NICHOLSON:: Will the minister make a statement with respect to this item?


Paul Joseph James Martin: As a result of the action taken in 1941 this matter was given some measure of positive form in the proposals made by the government to the provinces in August 1945. Since that time we have had a director of health services who has just resigned from his post to take up another important task. At the present time the work is being carried on by a number of Individuals in our own department who I believe are specially qualified to deal with the matter. They have other functions as well. As a matter of fact only this morning I was hoping to be able to conclude certain arrangements with another department of government to enlist the services of a gentleman who I believe, because of his studies and his own experience, can be said to be exceptionally qualified in the field of health insurance. I am hoping he will be able to come to us to carry on and to supplement some of the work done by Doctor Little, by our own deputy minister and by several research assistants. I hope that within a week or so, in the person of Doctor H. M. Cassidy of the university of Toronto, we shall have the temporary services-I trust they will prove more than temporary-of one of the outstanding persons in this field in Canada. Arrangements have not yet been completed, but we are anxious to have his services to pass upon certain projects which I believe will prove important in the field of health insurance.
I assure the hon. member that this matter is being actively pursued. Apart from cancer and what we hope to do in respect of arthritis, this matter is receiving priority of interest so far as I am concerned.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I consider that a most unsatisfactory statement from the minister. Last year there was an appropriation of 843,555, and this year in the estimates there is a
reduction of about *15,000. The sort of project the minister has outlined is not worth even the 827,863 mentioned in the item.
I hold in my hand the report of the advisory committee on health insurance appointed by order in council in 1942. I shall not take the time of the committee to read it, but it does provide some valuable material. The taxpayers of Canada have been at considerable expense in carrying out these surveys. The hopes of our people were raised when the representatives of so many different organizations were brought to Ottawa to give their opinions on the compilation of this information. Included in these were the Canadian Medical Association, the Canadian Nurses Association, the Canadian Hospital Council, the Canadian Dental Association, the Canadian Pharmaceutical Association, and a whole list of other associations I shall not mention. They went to considerable expense to express their views, and I believe the taxpayers of Canada are entitled to know what happened to their ideas. What precisely has the department done this year? Who are devoting full time to this work? What has been done or what may we expect to be done with the $27,863 in the vote? What have we to show for what has been done? The minister should' give the committee more information than he has given thus far.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I regret that the hon. member thinks our active interest in pursuing these studies is not adequate. I do not know what more one can do than constantly engage one's attention on the problem. Instead of confining it as it originally was to one person, the work has been distributed to a number of people in the department who I believe are specially' competent. If the hon. gentleman wishes confirmation of that I would ask him to talk to Doctor Mott in Saskatchewan to ascertain if we in the department are not meeting this problem in a whole-hearted and embracing way. The decreases to which the hon. member has referred are in the educational and informational publicity item and1 other pay list items. That has nothing to do with the importance of the work. I venture to suggest that in the person of the present deputy of welfare we have a gentleman who has had tremendous experience with the only health insurance act ever passed by any government in this country. I have every reason to rely upon his judgment and skill in the matter. As I said a moment ago, I am hoping to have additional services on a temporary basis, because he is now permanently engaged, in the person of Doctor H. M. Cassidy. He was deputy' minister in the

Supply-Health and Welfare
appropriate department in British Columbia when the health insurance act was passed in that province some years ago.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I am not criticizing any of the personnel. I am simply saying that this sort of report is not good enough. I have the greatest confidence in the deputy minister of the welfare branch, as well as of the health branch and other personnel. However, I submit that if we are spending $27,000 there should be some persons devoting their full time to the work. If the expenditures are being reduced at the rate of $15,000 a year it would indicate that the federal government is going out of the field of health insurance studies. The minister should tell us how many in this department have been working on this, how much was spent last year, and who are the persons employed on a full time basis.


Paul Joseph James Martin: There are ten in the department working on it.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I think we are entitled to a break-down. How much was spent of the $43,000 which was voted last year? Who were the persons who were engaged on this work, and what were their duties?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. member wdll recall that the department had only recently come into being at the time the estimate was prepared, and for the available personnel outside the department it was an overestimate. I can only repeat that we are engaging the full time of at least six persons in the department, with four additional persons who have other duties to perform. When we have the type of conference with the provinces which we envisage'we shall be prepared at that conference to submit details in respect to the studies we have been making and are making and to bring about at the earliest possible moment the realization of a health insurance scheme.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Last year the minister's predecessor was open to a great deal of criticism for asking for votes which in the opinion of some hon. members had no relation to the amounts which were to be expended. I have asked the minister a fair question: How much of the $43,000 which was voted for this purpose last year was spent, and how was it spent?


Paul Joseph James Martin: There was spent $4,763.44.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I should like the
minister to explain why, if they estimated they were going to need $43,000 and spent only S4,700, they are now coming to parliament and asking for $27,000?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The division was created in December 1945, and the estimate was made in November 1945.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: If you estimated in November 1945 you were going to spend $43,000, why was only $4,700 spent? How many are on the staff now, and what are the prospects of expending the $27,000 the minister is asking for?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I can only say that we have ten people now on the staff who are engaged in- this work. Some of those people are doing other work as well. To the extent of the available personnel covered by non-filled posts at the moment we will spend this money. My hon. friend, considering the province from which he comes, should be in a special position to know that personnel in this particular field is extremely difficult to obtain. That has been experienced 'by the government of Saskatchewan, and we have had the same difficulty. The director left for another post, and an acting director was appointed1 in January. That gentleman has taken on a post which he regards as more important at the moment, that of acting secretary of the National Cancer Institute. But that in no way represents a diminution of the work, because, as I have indicated, the officials in our department, in our research division, the deputy minister and another gentleman whom we hope to have from another department, along with the services of Doctor Cassidy, will all be available.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I do not think the minister is giving the committee the sort of information it should have. The fact that there have been directors who have left for more important work indicates that this branch is not doing anything. In view of the general interest across the country and the representations which were made to the social security committee, I think it can be taken that the taxpayers in Canada consider this department quite seriously. They felt that they are going to get some active leadership in working out plans. I know there is no sure way from where you are to where you want to go, but the federal government should be giving some dynamic leadership across the country and trying to work out ways and means. The minister should tell us who in the department are devoting full time to this work. What are the names and qualifications of those who are directing this important branch?


Mr. MacNICOL:: Before the minister
answers perhaps I had better say a word or two about this, because I am not going along with
Supply-Health and Welfare

my hon. friend to my left in this regard. I have long been interested in health insurance, and anyone who has to do-


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Perhaps the minister could be given a chance to answer my question.


John Ritchie MacNicol: He will answer when I get through.


Paul Joseph James Martin: We have the following persons: C. D. Allen, Miss B. J. Stewart,-


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Will the minister give their qualifications?	.


Paul Joseph James Martin: These are junior assistants who have qualified through civil service examinations. I can only assume that when they passed the tests set by the civil service commission they were fully qualified to do this work. Then there are J. W. Telfer, Doctor J. H. Horowicz, Mrs. F. E. Hurst, whom I think the hon. gentleman knows, and' Miss B. A. Patchet.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The minister is asking for $27,000. How many of those people are medical doctors? What is their background in the field of health insurance?


Paul Joseph James Martin: None of those I have named is a medical doctor.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: What is their background?


Paul Joseph James Martin: They are people who have had training like my hon. friend; they have had training at the university; they are economists, sociologists, and people of that type. Together with the medical experience in the department they make up a fine team with which to approach this subject.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I am not casting any reflection upon any of those people, but the minister is asking for $27,000 to carry on health insurance studies and I submit that there should be at least one medical doctor. There should also be a graduate in dentistry and someone representing the nursing profession. There should be some one experienced in hospital services. The minister should indicate whether there are such persons on the staff. Are there any dentists?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Will the minister give the name of the dentist?


Paul Joseph James Martin: We use the acting director of our dental division. We use the deputy minister, who is a doctor. Then we have Doctor Little, an eminent physician who has taken up cancer research work.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The minister is not suggesting that the deputy minister is doing
[Mr. MacNicol.3
nothing else but look after health insurance studies? I am submitting that if $27,000 is to be spent, there should be a full time job for some persons. It is not good enough to say that there are medical people on the staff, that there are dentists on the staff, or that you can call upon the national research council. Here is an important job to be done and there should be persons employed full time with the qualifications I have mentioned. Are there any full-time professional people in this field?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I do not think I can add anything to what I have already told my hon. friend.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am not going to criticize the minister for not having a large staff in this branch of his department. Several of the provinces have departments of their own, and what kind of top-heavy set-up shall we have across Canada if the provinces and the dominion go into this field? I studied this matter when I was in Great Britain. Their labour department looks after health insurance for 45,000,000 people, with no larger staff than the minister has. This idea of duplicating the work done in every province could only result in a top-heavy organization which the country cannot stand. The minister has already told the committee that his chief officials can take care of what is to be done in this small branch, and I commend him for that. If he is going to staff a health insurance branch for all of Canada we might as well wind up, because we cannot stand such duplication all over the country. Britain has only a small department looking after health insurance for a population five times as large as ours, and it is carrying on the work satisfactorily.


Mr. CASE:: I think this matter should be pursued further. Last year $43,555 was voted and only $4,700 was spent. This year the minister is asking for $27,863. This branch seems to be treated as an orphan. Last year there was a director of health insurance studies at $6,600. This year no provision is made for a director, but temporary assistance is being provided for, and it would seem that a director would be required to direct the course of studies of his assistants. Practically the same amount is provided for temporary assistance this year as last. There was also an item of $6,000 last year for professional and special services. Nothing is provided for that this year. There may be some reason why that is not required. I do not think the minister has justified his request for $27,000 this year when only $4,700 was spent last year. The minister talks about ten employees. Mention of their names conveys nothing to me. I should like to

Supply-Health and Welfare
know what work they are doing. It would mean something if I were told that they were engaged in medical or dental or actuarial services. A break-down of that kind would be helpful.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Is the minister not going to accede to that request?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. member for Grey North has made a helpful suggestion which I appreciate.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The minister is not as cooperative today as he usually is. Why is not a salary provided this year for a director of health insurance studies?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have told the hon. member that we are providing for temporary assistance. It is usual for people who enter the civil service to come in as temporaries.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Last year the department asked for $3,500 for educational and informational publicity. Nothing is being asked for that this year. Has the department no more ideas or information to give out? Why does it not need somebody for educational and informational publicity?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Because there are some things you do not need to publicize always. I would rather spend the money in some other way at this stage of the game.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: If the minister does not wish to go into the field of health insurance studies the whole item should be dropped. It is not fair to come to parliament and ask for $43,000 last year and spend only $4,700 and then ask this year for $27,000. The minister should be frank and say that he does not plan on doing anything further in the field of health insurance studies, and drop the item. That would meet the requests of my hon. friends to my right who are demanding a reduction in expenditures.


Paul Joseph James Martin: If the hon. gentleman keeps repeating things for his own political interests I cannot help that, but I shall be glad to take note of what he said if he wishes to help prosecute health insurance studies.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
2IS. Dental health, $50,551.
Donald Methuen Fleming: What is the expenditure?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The estimate for 1946-47 was $56,785 and the expenditure $12,623.52; unliquidated commitments, 1946-47, $14,003.05.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
219.	Hospital designs, $26,537.
Donald Methuen Fleming: The same question.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Estimate for 1946-47 was $72,516; expenditure 1946-47,	$14,302.41;
unliquidated commitments, 1946-47, $1,848.69.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I think this item calls for a word of explanation. The expenditure last year was very much below the estimate. Is this because the department did not fill the positions that were contemplated when the. estimates were being prepared?


Paul Joseph James Martin: As I told my hon. friend the other night, this is a new department, and there was no previous experience by which to judge needs. Obviously there have been overestimates as well as underestimates. This was an overestimate.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Is this particular branch now up to contemplated strength?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I think it is. There was a suggestion last fall that we might take on additional personnel, but I do not think it is necessary.


Mr. TIMMINS:: What work is done under this item?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The division will advise the provinces in respect to planning and building various types of hospitals, producing particular solutions when necessary. It will prepare schematic plans for various hospital sizes and types and collect and tabulate and make available to the provinces the latest information on hospital construction. The division will also continue to make preliminary drawings for Indian hospitals and to act in liaison with other architects towards the completion of such efforts. Contact is maintained with provincial health departments and various hospital associations, and meetings are attended for the purpose of offering and receiving suggestions and ascertaining the latest developments in the field. No fewer than five provinces have expressed commendation for the assistance which the architect of this division has rendered both to provincial and to municipal hospitals.


Mr. CHARLTON:: What is the nature of the temporary assistance required when there is only one permanent employee, a grade 3 stenographer? * Yet $15,000 is being asked for temporary assistance. We have also professional and special services, $2,000, below that.


Paul Joseph James Martin: There is a grade 3
stenographer who is permanent, and who was transferred from another department. The
Supply-Health and Weljare

temporaries are made up of a consulting architect, a junior architect, an architectural draughtsman, stenographers grade 3 and grade 2; a clerk grade 2; a medical officer who serves part time, and a typist grade 2.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: The estimate for 1947d8 is down as compared with 1946-47. What is the explanation of the decrease, and what responsibility is there on the dominion to go into this field? Is the department forced into the field, or is this part of an over-all plan which is contemplated by the government? I take it the matter of health should come under the jurisdiction of the provinces.


Paul Joseph James Martin: My hon. friend is quite right. Health is a matter for the province, but as I explained the other night, under section 5, subsection (i) of the National Health and Welfare Act, the department, on the invitation of the provincial governments, acts as a cooperating and coordinating body. The request for this division came from nine provinces at one of the meetings of the dominion council of health, which meets twice a year.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Can the minister
explain why professional and special services have been reduced from $20,000 to $2,000, and can he tell us the number of professionals who are with that branch?


Paul Joseph James Martin: As I told the member for Eglinton, the original estimate was a guess. It was a new division, and they estimated beyond what they have found since to be the requirements. The sum of $2,000 is required for consultation services and special reports. The decrease is due to more accurate knowledge of costs of operating the division after functioning for eight months.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: I should like to refer for a moment to a matter I mentioned a few nights ago in a speech I made then. In the United States, as I think the minister is aware, they have already appropriated in congress a large sum of money for an over-all plan, in the future with respect to health insurance. Have we any such plan as that under way?


Paul Joseph James Martin: We are not on that item now; we have passed health insurance. However, the hon. member may be able to raise it later. This item is with regard to hospital designs.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: I understood that the money in the United States was spent to

provide hospital beds, and I was wondering whether this particular item contemplates a plan of that sort.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is purely architectural.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
220.	Mental health, $40,096.
Wilfrid Garfield Case: What responsibility has the federal Department of National Health and Welfare with regard to mental institutions in Canada?


Paul Joseph James Martin: We have no responsibility. That is a matter that comes under the provinces, and I must say that in spite of the overtaxed capacity of these institutions in the provinces they are doing, in my opinion, a very good work. The problem is a serious one, but it is one that comes under their authority and one to which, within our constitutional limitations, we are always prepared, by way of supplementary assistance in some form or other, to give help. I repeat, however, that the matter is one within provincial jurisdiction.


Mr. STEPHENSON:: With regard to hospital designs, is not this a case where the dominion and the province are overlapping?


The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:: We have passed that item.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will note the question and when I reach the end of the estimates I will deal with it together with a number of loose ends that I shall pick up then.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What is the expenditure under item 220?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The estimate for 1946-47 is $32,285, the expenditure $19,180.38 and the unliquidated commitments $155.48.


Mr. BROOKS:: In view of the fact that some of the provinces are having great difficulty in looking after their mental institutions, and the federal government gives some help, has the department ever considered giving more practical assistance to the provinces? In my own province of New Brunswick the situation is bad1, and I am satisfied that if the federal government were aware of the conditions and gave some assistance the situation would be improved. Has any consideration been given to that question?


Paul Joseph James Martin: In the dominion-provincial proposals there is a proposed grant of $4 million.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Thank you.


Mr. HARKNESS:: I have been disturbed by different articles I have read in the last

Supply-Health and Welfare
two or three years in regard to the increasing number of mental cases in Canada, the large number of hospital beds they occupy, and the inadequate facilities provided for treatment and cure. Can the minister indicate what is being done under this particular vote to the end of bringing about improvement in the conditions which the hon. member for Grey North has pointed out as having formed the subject of articles disparaging to our mental institutions in the eyes of many people throughout the world? Can the minister indicate how this money is being spent to correct the condition complained of?


Paul Joseph James Martin: This matter is one that
comes under the jurisdiction of the provinces. It is one which they jealously guard as being within their own field. We did, however, in 1945 set up this division for the first time, at their request, as a sort of pooling agency to keep the provinces informed of what each was doing and to carry on general inspection work. The mental health field includes preventive work as well as provision for treatment facilities. The matter, of course, is a function of the provinces. The federal division cooperates with them in their efforts to benefit the mental hospital patients by surveying hospitals and setting up standards. We have produced a number of films at the request of the provinces, the cost of which we have borne. For instance, one film deals with the treatment of persons who have been in such institutions, the suggestion being that we should not frown upon such individuals but should try to help them. One film aims at increasing appreciation on the part of the public of the need of early treatment of mental illnesses, while another has reference to mild nervous and mental illness and the instructions of personnel engaged in the treatment of the mentally ill. There is another which deals with the treatment of children. As my hon. friend knows, there are many children in this country, as there are elsewhere, who are incipient patients. We try by educational methods, through films, lectures and the like, at the request of the provinces, to bring home to the people throughout Canada the dangers and ways and means of perhaps avoiding serious mental illnesses. That is the kind of work we are carrying on, and while the division has been in existence only since 1945, a truly remarkable job has been done, to use the words of Doctor Phair, deputy minister of health for Ontario. I look forward, as I am sure the hon. gentleman does, to greatly increased activity in this field, without any interference with the field occupied by the provinces.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Taking up the phrase
just used by the minister, what is the expansion of work contemplated in this department this year? You are asking for an appropriation of $40,000. The amount expended last year was just $19,000. What is the expanded welfare programme which justifies this request for an amount more than double last year's actual expenditures?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The plans for the next
fiscal year are to publish jointly with the division of maternal and child health, and other divisions, some of the following booklets:
1.	The Care and Training of the Normal Child from Two to Six Years of Age.
2.	The School-Age Child.
3.	Helping the Adolescent.
4.	The Child in the Classroom.
5.	The Home Training of the Mentally Retarded Child.
6.	The Home care of the Epileptic.
7.	Psychosomatic and Psychoneurotic Illnesses.
We hope to carry on those projects and to complete, with the cooperation of the Dominion Bureau of Statistics, the revision of the reporting cards and forms used by the mental institutions in reporting to the dominion bureau. It is hoped that forms and cards can be produced which will be uniform across the country and which will at the same time meet the requirements of the provinces for their own statistical purposes.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Many of these pamphlets are published; how are they distributed to the people?


Paul Joseph James Martin: We issue them to the provincial departments of health, and they distribute them to the schools and factories.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: They are distributed in bulk to the provinces?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I wish to ask two questions arising out of the minister's statement. Were those films requested by one or other of the provinces? The minister was speaking about cards which were of assistance in following statistical information. What is contained in those cards? Is the dominion attempting to go beyond the keeping of general statistics, or is some attempt being made to keep a complete card index system of cases? How far does this statistical research go?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Both requests come from the provinces. We undertake nothing without their invitation. The films were suggested by
Supply-Health and Welfare

them. They also suggested that as an aid to procuring an accurate over-all picture there should be a central bureau to which all provinces would direct information of the benefit to all.


Mr. McKAY:: While I quite agree with the minister that provincial mental institutions have been and are now being operated by the provincial governments, he knows, and I think the whole house knows, that practically all provincial governments are having considerable difficulty in operating modern mental institutions with proper facilities with the funds which are available for that sort of service. It seems to me most appropriate at this time that we should bring to the attention of the minister and of the government the great need of a comprehensive preventive and treatment programme for mental disease. I for one do not pose as an expert or an authority on this subject. I wish the minister to know that before I start. Nevertheless I should like to say a few words with regard to the difficulties which the provinces are now having in conducting mental institutions in a satisfactory manner.
I think it is generally recognized that mental disorders, wherein personality and behaviour may be profoundly affected are responsible for more chronic invalidism than any other disability. I believe the public is becoming increasingly aware of this problem. It has been repeatedly stated by those who know the subject well that mental derangements are not diminishing but are on the increase. As an indication of the extent and trend of the mental hygiene problem, according to a report from the bureau of statistics, patients in Canadian mental institutions increased from
25,000	in 1931 to 50,000 in 1946. A good deal of this increase is undoubtedly due to mental illness which comes about by old age and which has shown a considerable increase in the past decade or so because our population is getting older. The capacity of our mental institutions is inadequate to meet the needs of this increasing trend. The normal bed capacity at December 31, 1944, was 42,500 in the Dominion of Canada, according to the "Canada Year Book." During that same year there were 51,776 patients in mental hospitals or out on parole. Many on parole, of course, were less serious cases; but they were only on parole, I am informed, because they could not be accommodated in the institutions which we have. This indicates a serious overcrowded condition. Our mental institutions are inadequate for our needs. Most of them are understaffed and all too few of them are modern in either their construction or the equipment 
they operate. Mr. D. M. LeBourdais, who was referred to in the house the other day- he is, I believe, a lecturer and author of some note; at any rate, he served for some six years on the national committee for mental hygiene-has stated in no uncertain terms that Canada is failing in its duty toward the folk who are unfortunate enough to be inmates of our mental institutions. I believe this man speaks with some authority, Mr. Chairman, because he has inspected every Canadian institution devoted to the treatment of mental disease or mental ailments, as well as many in the United States. He states that most of our provincial mental institutions are obsolete.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I do not want to interfere with the hon. gentleman, but I think he will agree that this matter is one which comes under the provinces. He will appreciate the problem. I do not want to curtail his remarks, but I really think we should preserve some order.


Eric Bowness McKay: I am coming to that. There is a point I wish to raise with regard to it and I think what I am saying is essential at this time. Without this preliminary statement it is quite impossible to get the connection. I think it is necessary to ask the federal government for grants in aid for these institutions; and I think this is the time it should be done.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. member for Royal asked me the same question. The answer I gave him may not satisfy my hon. friend, but it is the only answer I can give.


Eric Bowness McKay: Then is it your intention, Mr. Chairman, to stop this debate?


William Henry Golding: I would remind the hon. member that speeches in committee must be strictly relevant to the item under discussion. This item has nothing to do with provincial control of mental hospitals, which, as the minister has pointed out, is a provincial matter, to be dealt with by the provinces.


Mr. IRVINE:: If federal policies drive people crazy the provinces should have some assistance in looking after them.


William Henry Golding: That may be, but we have to deal with these items as they affect this parliament.


Eric Bowness McKay: Thi3 item deals with mental hygiene.


William Henry Golding: Mental
health.

Supply-Health and Welfare


Eric Bowness McKay: Well, mental health, mental hygiene; I don't think it makes very much difference.


William Henry Golding: If the hon. gentleman is permitted to make a long speech-


Eric Bowness McKay: This is not a long speech.


William Henry Golding: -in connection with what is purely a provincial matter, then every other member of the committee should be allowed to do the same thing, and I do not believe my hon. friend would consider that to be in order.


Eric Bowness McKay: It is quite all right with me, Mr. Chairman. I have not a very long speech; it is a very short one, as a matter of fact, but if the minister desires that I should wait and speak on item 234 I can speak at much greater length then.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Have any of the provinces appealed to the federal government for assistance in connection with mental institutions, or has the dominion offered assistance to any of the provinces?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The answer to the first question is no; the answer to the second question is that we offered it in the dominion-provincial proposals.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
221.	Blindness control, $28,307.
(Translation):
Mr. HEON:: Would the minister give us some particulars about the work done by his department as regards blindness control?


Paul Joseph James Martin: In reply, I must say to the honourable member that it is my intention to make a statement later about this item and in connection with several of its subdivisions. Will the honourable member wait until that time for these explanations?


Georges-Henri Héon: Very well.
(Text):


Donald Methuen Fleming: Could we have the
expenditures last year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The estimated expenditure for 1946-47 was $42,566. The expenditure for 1946-47 was $10,393.62, and unliquidated commitments, $21,536.


John Ritchie MacNicol: May I ask what is the connection, if any, between the officials of the minister's department and those connected with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and other similar organizations?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Close collaboration is maintained with the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and the two other similar organizations. They are non-governmental, non-profit private agencies, but there is close cooperation and a very happy relationship. I am sure the hon. gentleman knows Colonel Eddie Baker very well, and he gives full collaboration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
222.	Epidemiology, including the former tuberculosis control division, $16,747.
Mr. BLACKMORE:: The minister suggested that under this item I might raise the question of the facilities that exist for examination into possible remedies for cancer. If I might broaden the matter slightly I would mention what is also in the minds of a great many hon. members of the house, the fact that certain remedies have been suggested by men who believe they are of real value, who are having considerable difficulty getting them before the public. One case in point, which I think already has been brought to the attention of the minister, is that of Doctor Holder of Windsor, who fervently and ardently believes he has discovered the cause of cancer and various other serious ills and a method of treatment for those maladies which may mean the saving of thousands of lives in this country.
We have another case in point, which I think probably all hon. members have had brought to their attention; that is Doctor Koch's remedy for various ills. In my constituency there are people who believe they have been cured by Doctor Koch's treatment of ills that have successfully resisted every other kind of treatment. I should like to ask the minister whether he has a committee or some other facility whereby ideas which are new can be examined objectively and thoroughly so those who believe in the ideas will have every opportunity to demonstrate, to their own satisfaction, everything in favour of their cause. Has he any facility whereby all the evidence may be recorded and reports submitted which would be entirely objective and unbiased, reports which could come before the public of Canada and the members of this house so we might have a chance of studying these suggestions with some hope of arriving at a sound conclusion? Would the minister tell us something about such facilities, if we have them?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. gentleman
brought this up the other evening, and I asked him to wait for this item. I thank him for

Supply-Health and Welfare

having done so. Mr. Holder of the city of Windsor is well known to me. He is a very estimable gentleman, who has written a textbook as well as several articles on this subject. When I saw him last, which was three or four weeks ago, following certain correspondence, I referred him to the proper agency in Ontario, the commission for investigation of cancer remedies. That commission has investigated a number of proposed treatments for cancer. Since I have been minister two others have come to my attention, and I want to say to the hon. gentleman that I think the proper attitude to take, and this is the attitude I am taking, is that if anyone thinks he has a solution, regardless of what others may think about it is in the absence of an investigation, certainly I should not let any stone remain unturned to give that person an opportunity to have his suggestion investigated. Just to give an example, last week a doctor from a certain town in this province came to see me. I had representations by certain other practitioners in reference to this particular gentleman, representations that could hardly be said to be complimentary to the individual concerned. I was not in a position to pass on the merits of the case, but I did take steps at once to make sure that the commission to investigate cancer remedies was given a chance to do so, and that body is also going to investigate this matter. In other words if a suggestion comes to us we point out that the matter comes under provincial jurisdiction and that the province should have an opportunity first to go into the matter. I assure my hon. friend that no one in this country who has a suggestion to, offer will be turned away from my door. I could mention another case. I do not think I had better mention the name of the person, but he is well known in Ontario, and claims to have cured people. I had better not identify him beyond that, because it would not be fair to him. I can say however that he is a gentleman who has been considerably in the public eye. He proposes setting up an institution in this province at his own expense for clinical treatment. I do not know whether he has a cure. I have also seen to it that that gentleman is not being denied the opportunity of a full investigation of his claims. That will be my attitude.


John Horne Blackmore: I congratulate the
minister upon what he has said. I am positive that many good ideas have been neglected because people in high places have not taken the unbiased view the minister has just expressed. Has the minister taken the precaution to see that reports of investigations are accurately made? I have known cases in which

reports have been so garbled as to give an altogether erroneous impression as to what actually took place upon investigation.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have designated one
official in my department, who after such requests have come in and we have asked the proper agency to look into it, will follow up so as to make sure he is satisfied this has been done. I am satisfied that is being done not only with regard to cancer but in other matters.
May I add that only a short time ago I read in the press that an old classmate of mine, whom I had not seen for a number of years, in collaboration with some other physicians, had developed a pill which he said was a cure for certain types of heart disease. I do not know whether it is or not. However I did know this man. At university I found him sincere and hard working; and if what he had perfected could be the means of giving relief to someone I thought he should be given the opportunity to show its worth. He was complaining that he was not being given a chance to put forward his formula. I wrote to him and went myself to see him in London, just to ascertain whether he had any particular grievance. He told me what the situation was. I got in touch with the minister of health for Ontario and I found he had anticipated anything I was doing in the matter and was giving it his full attention. As it was one which came properly within the provincial field, there was nothing further for me to do except to be satisfied that it was being looked into.


Mr. RINFRET:: I cannot resist the invitation given by the minister to offer a suggestion with respect to a matter which would come within his jurisdiction. I am not quite sure whether what I have in mind should come under this item, or might more properly be discussed under the item for grants. It has to do with the control of tuberculosis.
Each year around Christmas time the various tuberculosis associations in Canada issue Christmas seals from the sale of which they are interested in obtaining as much money as possible. I am told the government is interested in having Christmas correspondence, including greeting cards, placed in the mails as early as possible, and that the earlier this is done the greater is the economy effected. I suggest that the minister have a conference with the Postmaster General with a view to setting aside one or two days early in, December in which all letters and parcels with Christmas seals as stamps could be passed through the post office. I believe these Christ-

Supply-Health and Welfare
mas seals are the only ones of their kind now distributed or made available to the public. The various tuberculosis societies would immensely increase their stamp sales, and the public in general, by buying these seals at one cent each, would economize by placing them on their Christmas cards and parcels. Then the government would have an interest in getting the mail in as early as possible and an economy would be effected.
In various other countries other means have been found of doing the same thing. For instance, in Cuba everyone is obliged during November and December to place an additional stamp on each letter. I understand) that in Switzerland during the Christmas season they sell a stamp for, I believe, one half more than the current stamps. The people may take either the special tuberculosis stamps, or the others which are sold at a lower price, and the amount collected by the government on those stamps is given to the tuberculosis societies.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I thank the hon. member for what I believe is a constructive suggestion. I shall see to it at once that at the earliest opportunity the hon. member, the Postmaster General and myself have an opportunity to discuss the matter with a view to seeing, if the suggestion could be carried out.


Mr. BENTLEY:: I was particularly pleased to hear what the minister said in reply to the hon. member for Lethbridge. While his remarks were directed more particularly to tuberculosis, the minister did say that not only in respect of cancer, but also in other respects, he was giving, attention to any possible, cure which might be advanced for other diseases. That was much more encouraging than the reply I received from his predecessor last year, when I referred to a doctor in Chicago who claimed he had some special knowledge about arthritis. The minister will understand I am not attempting to speak as an expert, but I am simply offering him some of the information I have gained from correspondence. I have learned that there is a Doctor Golden in Chicago who has made a study of arthritis- and perhaps the minister has checked on this. I should like to hope that he has, or that he will do so.
I would bring to the minister's attention another matter which in medical and other circles is highly controversial. I refer to practice by chiropractors. I know that any mention of a chiropractor to a qualified medical practitioner will make him laugh. I am not an expert in these matters; I go to either of them as infrequently as possible, and hope I shall not have to go any more frequently in 83166-283i
the future than I have in the past. I do know however that many people believe they get relief and even cures from the operations of chiropractors. This belief is too widespread among lay citizens for me to brush it aside, and to say that because the medical doctors say the chiropractors are no good, therefore they must be no good. Has the minister's department given attention to this matter, and has the minister any information which he could give the committee? Does the department purpose carrying out any investigation with a view to letting the public know what its opinion is about this type of practitioner?-.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. member will know, of course, that the matter of chiropractors comes within the control of the provinces. I would not want to interfere in that field.
As the hon. member may recall, I said the other evening when the name of Doctor Golden was mentioned that after the consultations Dr. Moore of this department has had with Lord Horder, the great rheumatics expert of Great Britain, in collaboration with Doctor Wallace Graham of Toronto we have decided to call a conference within a short time of the arthritic and rheumatic experts in the country to see if we cannot go into this whole problem. The proposal of Doctor Golden in regard to arthritis treatment is a matter which will not be overlooked at that time. When the hon. member drew a comparison between myself and my predecessor I am sure he did not mean what he said, because every day I am finding proof in the department of the devoted service in the field of health and welfare rendered by my predecessor, the Minister of National Defence.


Thomas John Bentley: I meant no reflection upon the minister. I simply wanted to point out that when I asked if any consideration was being given to Doctor Golden's suggestion the answer was an abrupt "no" which was extremely unsatisfactory. With regard to chiropractors, I appreciate the minister's statement that the issuing of licences granting the right to practise is entirely in the hands of the provincial governments, but I was wondering if the department was considering issuing advisory statements-not that they should or should not be but simply to give some idea of whether their work is really worth while. You would not be imposing a federal order upon the provincial governments; it would simply be a statement.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I would want to consider that. I think the hon. gentleman understands the implications of his question.
Supply-Health and Welfare


Thomas John Bentley: The minister will consider it?


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: As far as I can see there is nothing in this particular item for research work. Is it intended to cover that field? I have before me a clipping dated May 15 last which reads:
A partly synthetic liquid named Tween, termed a new avenue of approach to tuberculosis and possible immunity, was described to the society of American bacteriologists yesterday by Doctor Rene J. Dubose of the Rockefeller Institute, New York.
Is this branch purely administrative or does ircarry on any research into new methods and techniques?


Paul Joseph James Martin: This proposed epidemiology division will investigate the control of all types of communicable disease. The hon. gentleman will realize that the name epidemiology division has been made generic; formerly it was called the division of tuberculosis control.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: It has been extended?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The Rockefeller foundation has done a tremendous work in this field and Doctor Milam, of the foundation, examined at the expense of the Rockefeller foundation our arrangements in Canada with respect to epidemiology.
His report recommended the establishment of a division of epidemiology which would include in its scope the former division of tuberculosis control.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: How does the department deal with a new technique or new method in the medical field? Does the department disseminate that to the provinces and to the medical health officers throughout Canada?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The main way would be
by collaboration with the provinces in setting up studies.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I asked the minister for the expenditures last year.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The vote last year was $32,051; the expenditures were $2,880.57, with unliquidated commitments of $450.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: The minister suggested
that this branch has been extended. Is that something which has happened only within the last couple of months?


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is just being set up now.


John Alpheus Charlton: I noticed a civil service advertisement for an epidemiologist at a salary of $6,000; would that be included1 in this item?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: There cannot be many other people working in the branch.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is just a new division. The proposal is to have a chief, epidemiology division; a stenographer, grade 3, and a medical officer, part time. We shall have to see what the developments are.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
223.	Advertising and labels control, $21,780.
Donald Methuen Fleming: May I have the same information?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Estimates 1946-47, $70,463; expended, $5,932; unliquidated commitments, $646.05.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I think we should have some statement on this item. A total of $70,000 was voted, and even including the unliquidated commitments only $6,500 was spent. This year the department is asking for $22,000. Is there to be some extension of the functions of this branch?


Paul Joseph James Martin: When the estimates for 1946-47 were prepared it was the intention to have the proprietary or patent medicines division, as well as certain other functions of the food and drugs division, absorbed into the newly created advertising and labels control division. However, in working out the organization that was found to be impracticable. In other words, our hindsight was better than our foresight. The better plan seemed to be to keep the three divisions as separate units, to be correlated under one officer, the chief dominion analyst, Doctor Morrell. In order to render proper service in the food and drugs division it was found that it would not be possible to release the personnel originally intended for transfer to the advertising and labels division. Consequently it will be necessary to engage additional employees to complete the establishment of the new division, and that has been provided for in the estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
224.	Grants to institutions assisting sailors, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $2,400.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Was the money all disbursed last year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
225.	Medical services- Indians and Eskimos, $4,638,808.

Supply-Health and Welfare
Wilfrid Garfield Case: What medical services are provided for the Indians and Eskimos, and do they include dental services?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: What other services are
provided?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. member has been a distinguished member of the Indian affairs committee under the chairmanship of my colleague, the hon. member for Essex West. I have been following the work of that committee, and I think the committee will understand me when I say that I am proud of my colleague, the hon. member for Essex West, for the work he has done as chairman of that committee. The Indian health services became a division of the Department of National Health and Welfare in November, 1945. Prior to that the services were under the Department of Mines and Resources. The aim of the Indian health services division is to provide and complete a health service to all Indians and Eskimos who are wards of the dominion government. For this purpose hospital, nursing and ancillary services have been organized. The division's facilities are not only devoted to providing general medical and surgical services, but special attention is being directed to the treatment of tuberculosis and venereal diseases. I need not tell the committee that the tubercular mortality rate among Indians is higher than one would like to see it. When one considers the projects that have been under way since 1938 one realizes that the great improvement in attacking this problem has by no means been a complete improvement. I myself plan this summer to visit as many of the stations as I possibly can-not that my presence will do much, but I wish to form an impression in relation to some important decisions which are suggested by the officers of my department. We have under way several projects for hospitals a swell as other projects actually in progress looking to improvement of methods by which we can deal with the health of the Indians. The hon. gentleman from his experience on the Indian affairs committee will undoubtedly be able to confirm my view that because of the dispersal of the Indians and Eskimos often in inaccessible areas the service in some regions is far from perfect. I am not saying that in criticism of my officers, because I do not think I could have under me any more devoted officers, and certainly no more devoted director than the present incumbent. But the Indian is nomadic. He does not always live in well settled areas. The situation cannot be materially improved until modern transportation facilities are integrated into the health service, and we are giving consideration to means of providing under our own control a better air transport service to deal with the transfer of Indian patients to centres where they can get medical attention, and also for the purpose of moving our own men.
In addition to the construction of hospital units and the conversion of hospitals such as the one at Qu'Appelle, we have in some instances given a grant for example, to the sanatorium at Fort William, to undertake the special treatment of Indians. We have no constitutional way of giving such assistance to hospitals in various municipalities and provinces, but as the Indian is our ward, sometimes rather than build a hospital we do give financial assistance to institutions such as I have mentioned where the Indians are treated. Likewise we have arrangements with smaller institutions throughout all parts of Canada to render medical assistance. I assure the committee that we are accelerating our effort in a field in which we have full jurisdiction.


Mr. McIVOR:: Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the board of our sanatorium in Fort William, where we have a hospital that deals not only with Fort William but with all western Ontario, I want to say that when two members of the board came down here they were treated not only courteously but generously, and they went back encouraged in the belief that the department of health of the dominion government was behind them in their work. They 'had to build a large addition to the hospital, with the assistance of the provincial and federal governments, to provide facilities for the Indians to be treated in the most modern way. On behalf of the board I wish to express my appreciation of the minister's efforts.


Mr. BRYCE:: Along with other members of the house I welcome the increased expenditures which the minister is going to make on the Indians. Hon. members who are on the Indian affairs committee have an advantage over other hon. members in that they have been able to get to the bottom of the grievances respecting medical services to the Indians. We had Doctor Moore and other members of the department under cross-examination by the committee for a few days.
The addition of the Indian health services to the Department of National Health and Welfare is something new which is going to be watched very carefully. The Indians in Canada for the last forty or fifty years have been a neglected people, and anybody who has the welfare of the Indian at heart wel-
Supply-Health and Welfare

comes this new approach. But care must be taken that the Indian health services do not become a mere sideline of the new department. I hope that the minister will promise us that this will not happen so long as he is in charge of this department, but that the Indian will get equal treatment with the white man so far as medical services are concerned.
This vote of $4,000,000 looks a large amount; but remember that the Indians have been neglected for forty years, and this is only what is coming to them, to do for them what you would expect Canada to do for the Indians.


Mr. BOWERMAN:: What progress has been made in establishing the Indian hospital at North Battleford, and what is the staff there, if it is now operating?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The Battleford hospital is suitable for about fifty beds. This can be provided in the buildings erected in conjunction with the former R.C.A.F. field at North Battleford. Alterations are required to provide for the isolation of tuberculosis patients and proper accommodation for the staff. There are no suitable quarters for the staff at the hospital, but we have engineers up there who are expeditiously, in the light of material shortages, trying to complete the work.


Edward LeRoy Bowerman: Will it be ready for winter occupation?


Paul Joseph James Martin: By September 1, I hope.


Mrs. STRUM:: I was delighted to hear the minister say that he was going to visit as many reserves as possible this year. I want to take this opportunity to invite him to Qu'Appelle valley, and will be very happy to act as guide for him. I think it is a reflection on our treatment of the Indians that the death rate from tuberculosis among the Indians is twenty times as high as it is among the white people in our province, which has established a world record in reducing the mortality rate. I think the minister will soon realize that the health of the Indians is bound up with nutrition, housing and employment. Their health is a reflection of the economic position of the family. I can take the minister to one family after another who are sheltering the grandparents, and where members of two and three generations are housed in one room under one roof. I can take him to old people who cannot afford coal oil and who are gnawing crusts because there is no old age pension for the Indians. We must not only talk about the health of the Indians; we must consider how we can help them establish a higher income, how we can help the Indian to rehabilitate himself and his family so that

he can have better housing and better nutrition, which will be reflected in the health records of the Indians.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I agree with what the hon. member has said. I could not ignore her very kind offer of guidance. I may tell her that except in the matter of political guidance I shall be glad to accept her kind offer.


Gladys Grace Mae Strum: I shall be glad to help the minister there too.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I am sure the hon. lady's observations will be noted by many of us, but I can assure her also that the problem is a difficult one, to help those who apparently cannot help themselves. I notice in the 1946-47 estimates there are sixty-one on the staff and the number has been reduced by eight; yet the amount of money involved has been increased. How does the minister reconcile these figures?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That represents a consolidation of the cost of living bonus and salaries.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: With the lesser staff?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: The staff is down by eight.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I understand that in the Indian affairs committee it was brought out that there are now forty-three full-time medical officers in this particular branch, but I see here only fifteen or sixteen provided for.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The rest are temporaries.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Does the minister mean that they have not been taken on the regular staff of civil servants but are full-time civil service employees?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Not all, but a good number.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I understand there are some forty odd full-time employees and not fifteen as shown here. What is the exact number?


Paul Joseph James Martin: There are twenty-six
temporaries.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Are these men on probation, and will they become permanent civil servants after a year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: After the customary year
or as they will be taken on by the civil service, assuming that they give satisfactory service.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The biggest item here
is for temporary assistance in professional

Supply-Health and Welfare
and special services, the amount being over $1,000,000, almost twice what it was last year. What is the explanation?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Providing staffs for the
new hospitals.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Is that entirely taken
up by provision of staffs for the new hospitals?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The amount of $1,176,224
is required to cover salaries for doctors, nurses, technical and clerical assistants and hospital field and administrative staff. The increase is due to the opening of two additional hospitals and the extension of the facilities of existing hospitals, and providing an additional 700 treatment beds. There will be an appreciable increase in the field staff of twenty doctors and twenty-seven nurses, and an increase in administrative staff by four additional regional superintendents and an assistant director, all rendered essential by expansion in the services for which the division is medically responsible.


Douglas Scott Harkness: There is an amount of 882,000 for cash allowances. To whom are these allowances paid? What is the purpose of that item?


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is required to cover
payments in the form of cash allowance in lieu of maintenance of hospital attendants and ward aids and housemaids. The turnover of personnel is very great, and the amount paid to different persons varies considerably.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I cannot understand
why it is under a separate heading of cash allowances instead of being included under the heading of salaries and wages.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is an accounting classification which I am not in a position to discuss. It is a treasury board suggestion.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The biggest item of
all is $2 million in connection with professional and special services. Can the minister give a breakdown or explanation of that?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The amount of $2 million is required to cover cost of services of doctors, dentists, nurses not on salary, hospitalization and special charges for all treatment carried out by other than departmental institutions. The increase is due to the enhanced health consciousness of the population and the advent of new and expensive drugs such as penicillin, as well as the persistent rise in hospital rates all across the dominion. It is also due to hospital workers having secured shorter hours and higher rates of pay for practically all classes of employees. We have been faced, as the provincial hospitals have
been faced, with increased cost of living, cost of food, medical services and materials, and so on, as well as cost of professional services.


Douglas Scott Harkness: May I suggest that in
the future what is paid in the way of salaries, wages and so forth be brought together under one item or a group of related items? In connection with every item I have inquired about so far the main cost appears to have been for wages or salaries or the like, so that it is almost impossible to get a reasonable picture of the expenditures. I suggest it would be much better if these items were all brought together in one related group.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I thank the hon. gentleman for the suggestion, and I shall look into it.


Mr. McLURE:: On a question of privilege, Mr. Chairman, I would bring to your attention, as well as the attention of the Minister of Public Works, the fact that on this side we are annoyed by a terrible draught. Many of us have to get up and go out. I wonder if something can be done about it. If the Minister of Public Works would sit over here for five or ten minutes he would find that, unless he put his hat on, he would be most uncomfortable.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I agree that there is something in what the hon. gentleman has said, but he should take it up with the Minister of Public Works, who, I have no doubt, will give the matter consideration. I would, however, remind the hon. and kindly gentleman that we are discussing the item on Indians.


Douglas Scott Harkness: What the hon. gentleman said comes aptly under health and welfare.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: What I said was a matter of privilege.


The CHAIRMAN:: I am sure the statement made by the hon. member for Queens will receive the attention of the Minister of Public Works, who is in the chamber at the moment.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The total of employees mentioned on page 174 is 53. We are to pay this year the sum of $116,000. How many of these employees are Indians?


Paul Joseph James Martin: There are no Indians.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am going to say to the new minister something which I am sure he will take in good part.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I think I misunderstood the hon. member. We have one Indian on the head office staff. I know what he is going
Supply-Health and Welfare

to say, and I shall accept his remarks in the kindest spirit, the spirit in which he himself always makes his suggestions. I am trying to meet the problem he has in mind.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am glad to hear that. It is what I would have expected from the minister. I am confident that he will make revolutionary changes in this department if it remains under him. The next item is temporary assistance, SI,059,000. There again I presume there are no Indians.


Paul Joseph James Martin: There are one hundred in that branch.


John Ritchie MacNicol: In the United States over one-half of all the employees in the Indian branch, of whom there are many thousands, are Indians. I am not going to comment on the affairs of the Indian committee; that would not be in order here until they report. I do feel, however, that we should emulate what is being done in the United States and give much of the employment in our Indian branch services to Indians, because all of us who have been associated with Indians during the last couple of years know that there are many very bright men and women among them who are rendering excellent service in many activities, including the professions. There is no reason why in the past we should not have had many more Indians in the Indian branch service.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I fully agree. A short time ago I asked our officials to issue a direction to all Indian agents to employ as many competent Indians as could be obtained. Indians are actually given the preference, provided, of course, that they are qualified.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I thank the minister; I will support his programme. As has already been mentioned, the medical branch which was recently under the Department of Mines and Resources has been placed under the Department of National Health and Welfare. I shall not make any comment at the moment on that change. We have been listening to a good deal about it. I believe it was the hon. member for Selkirk who said we are going to watch it. That is right. We are going to watch it.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Quite rightly.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Personally I am in favour of the whole branch being in one department. If the government decides that the whole branch should go into the health department, that is all right; because I can plainly see that if the administration of Indian Affairs is now divided between two departments it

is not going to work out perfectly, no matter what any of us may hope. I suggest to the minister that he and his colleagues consider whether the whole department should not go into one department. When the vote comes up again next year those of us who are associated with Indian affairs investigations will then be in a better position to say whether we favour the medical services branch being in the Department of National Health and Welfare or having it go back to the Department of Mines and Resources.
The minister said something about aeroplane service. I am in accord with Indians being flown out from remote areas. It is not an easy problem. I myself have been over all these areas right down to the Arctic, and I have seen many Indian reservations. There are no landing fields anywhere north of 60, outside of Yellowknife and Norman Wells. Those are the only places I know of where wheel planes can come down. The float planes, of course, can come down in the summer time wherever there is water.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Amphibians are almost
necessary, with ski equipment.


John Ritchie MacNicol: You cannot use amphibians in the winter.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Amphibians and skis.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is the problem. It is worth while inquiring what the scope of this will be.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If this particular department were to set up an elaborate plane service, it would be a costly affair.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Very much so. We must be careful.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I suggest to the minister that he watch is carefully and) get the best advice he can. Like others who have spoken, I am greatly interested in Indian services. I realize that in the past the medical service to the Indians has not been anything like what it should be. There may be reasons for it.
In a number of small places I have been in I have found two hospitals, neither having much to do. In one instance there was one patient in one hospital and one in the other. It may be that all the hospitals should be placed under government control. Surely folks can work together so that costs can be cut down and the Indians will receive the service to which they aie entitled. To me it does look questionable to have two good-

Supply-Health and Welfare
sized hospitals in one small place. I have a particular place in mind, but I will not mention it because both hospitals are splendidly operated. They require a good deal of coal for heating and electricity for lighting, and one patient cannot pay the costs. The minister might well consider whether all the hospitalization should not be in government hospitals. I believe there is now a programme with that end in view.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Every bed in the Aklavik hospital is occupied.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I did not mention what hospital it was.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I know.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That may be so, but it would be for only a week or two at most. There is an argument for concentration of hospitals. Surely folks can work together to cut down expenses, thereby making it possible to give better service.


Mr. MATTHEWS (Kootenay East):: How much per day is the Indian department paying for the care of Indian patients in small hospitals across the country? I ask this question for the reason that I have had a lengthy correspondence with the secretary of a small hospital in my constituency. He complains that whenever accounts are sent in to the Indian department, they are invariably scaled down, and scaled down far too low. In the case of one Indian who was hospitalized, the hospital charged for sixteen days at 84 a day, a total of $64; operating-room, $5; X-ray, $15; penicillin supply, $5, making a total of $89. This account was scaled down to S48 and a cheque for that amount was sent to the hospital. If I may, I should like to quote from one part of the letter, as follows:
The board appreciates very much what you have done, but when I announced that $81 on Indians' accounts had been written off as bad debts, and also that it -was necessary to borrow $900 at interest from the bank, there were strong protests, and I was instructed to write the enclosed letter to the police.
I have here a copy of the letter which was written. It is addressed to Corporal R. Whittaker, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Creston, B.C., and reads as follows:
Dear Sir:
Please note that as no arrangements have been made by the Department of Indian Affairs for the treatment of Indians; Indians are barred from Creston Valley hospital under any circumstances.
I am sorry to think that an Indian anywhere in Canada should become the victim of any disagreement between the Indian department and a local hospital. I have had several inter-83166-284
views with the director of medical services and wish to express my appreciation of the many courtesies which have been extended to me. But I feel most keenly that in this particular matter an impasse has been reached and the Indians for some reason are being penalized. I hope the minister will look into the matter as soon as possible and see that some solution to it is speedily found. I should like him to state now exactly what he has been paying per day.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The rates asked by the institutions vary from as low as $2.50 a day to as high as $8. Many institutions accept an inclusive rate for all ordinary hospital services. Others claim extra payment over and above the per diem rate. In all cases the department is endeavouring to establish an all inclusive per diem rate. As the hon. gentleman knows, hospitalization costs have risen rapidly in the last year or so. As I have said, the costs have varied. There are some districts where the cost is terrifically high, because of long hauls to get supplies in, and so on. Factors affecting this rise are the increasing cost of commodities, the adoption of the eight-hour day for nurses, the organization of hospital employees into organizations of their own, resulting in marked salary increases. I have been discussing the matter with a number of officials. Only the other day I had a long talk with Bishop Renison of the James Bay district, who has had tremendous experience there. I have discussed it with others as well, and I can say the whole problem now is under study and adjustment. Any institution asking for an increase in rates is asked to submit a statement of per diem costs for public ward patients, and some explanation as to how these are computed. The regional superintendents are instructed to visit any hospitals asking for increases, to meet the hospital authorities and discuss rates with them, and to report back on the facilities provided for the treatment of Indians. We then attempt to strike what we think is a just and equitable rate. I recall the matter my hon. friend has brought to my attention, and I may assure him it is receiving my very active attention.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: How many full-time medical doctors are in the department?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I answered that.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I am sorry; I was at the telephone. What is the type of service being performed by the part-time physicians? I notice there is one who receives $132 a year, and another who receives $312.

Supply-Health and Welfare


An hon. MEMBER:: That was answered.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: 
Paul Joseph James Martin: I can only say my officers feel this will be adequate for the work they have in mind.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What was the expenditures .'ast year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: 
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: 
Paul Joseph James Martin: 
Thomas Reid: Are any new hospital buildings contemplated? What increase is represented in this appropriation as compared with what was spent for hospitals when they were under the Indian affairs department?


Paul Joseph James Martin: 
Thomas Reid: The minister is referring to new government hospitals?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is right.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Will he tell us how many patients are in the hospital at The Pas, Manitoba? I understand a United States army hospital was taken over there.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Approximately ninety.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: How many medical personnel are employed there?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Two.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: And how many nurses?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will have to give that information later; it varies.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The hon. member to my left said something about the United States army

hospital at The Pas. This country donated a large amount toward the construction and upkeep of a hospital at The Pas, but that is not the hospital now referred to, is it?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, I believe it is.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Well, there must be more than one doctor and two nurses there.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Two doctors.


John Ritchie MacNicol: In The Pas hospital? It is a large building.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. member was referring to the Clearwater Lake hospital.


John Ritchie MacNicol: My hon. friend said The Pas hospital.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is near The Pas, at Clearwater Lake.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Just how far from The Pas is it?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I suppose about eighteen miles.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That answer confused me, because I am familiar with the hospital at The Pas, and I never heard the other hospital called1 The Pas hospital.


Douglas Scott Harkness: In connection with this item of $600,000 for construction of works and buildings, for some minutes I have been trying to ask the minister to indicate just what the building programme is. He was talking about it to the hon. member for New Westminster, but it seemed to be a private conversation and I could not hear what he said.


Paul Joseph James Martin: 
Donald Methuen Fleming: Permanently?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I know the hon. gentleman would prefer that, but I do not think the country would'-about Tuly 11 and 12, for the

Supply-Health and Welfare
purpose of seeing it for myself. It is all very well for us to make decisions here, without any knowledge of the terrain, but I propose to see as many of these places as I can. The new projects are:	a nursing station at Port
Harrison, Quebec; doctors' residences at Port Harrison, Quebec, and at Chesterfield Inlet, Keewatin; alterations to the former R.C.A.F. hospital at North Battleford, Saskatchewan, and the R.C.A.M.C. hospital at Nanaimo.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I think it is well known that there is no Indian, hospital in the maritime provinces, and I understand there has been some agitation to establish a tuberculosis hospital for Indians somewhere in that area. I should like to ask the minister if this is correct, and just where the department are planning to locate the hospital. I ask the question because it has been rumoured that the Department of Veterans Affairs hospital at the town of Sussex is being abandoned by D.V.A. and that the Indian Affairs department is considering establishing a tuberculosis hospital either there or at Truro, Nova Scotia.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Truro has been mentioned, and we are investigating the hospital at Sussex. I believe my hon. friend comes from Sussex, and I think he wrote me a letter about that a short time ago. The representations he made have been borne in mind, and the investigation he suggested is under way.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I was not particularly advocating that the Indian hospital be established in Sussex; I was asking if it was the intention to establish one there.


Douglas Scott Harkness: In connection with this construction programme I was hoping to hear that something would be included for a doctor's residence at Hobbema and perhaps one at Morley, because I understand they cannot get doctors at either place at the present time because there is no place for a doctor to live. I did not hear the minister mention anything along that line. Is that projected, or is it to be left for another year or so?


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is under consideration.


Douglas Scott Harkness: It is not in the item, so that-


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is under consideration. It may be in the supplementary estimates; I cannot say at the present time.


Mr. COCKERAM:: Is there any intention of providing more hospital facilities for Indians in the northwestern part of Ontario, and especially those up on the Osnaburgh reserve and down the Albany? At the pre-83166-284J
sent time the hospital facilities are at Sioux Lookout. The Indians have to go to Manitoba for hospitalization.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Perhaps the hon. member was detained when I spoke a few moments ago. I did refer to what we are doing at Fort William.


Alan Cockeram: That is a long way from there.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is in the northern part of Ontario. We are also giving consideration to the matter of a hospital at Sioux Lookout. I think there is great need there, and we have a project which I hope it will be possible to proceed with. I cannot say any more at the present time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health branch-
226.	Grants to hospitals which care for Indians and Eskimos, $219,320.
John Alpheus Charlton: What is the total
expenditure on the amount of $204,320 voted last year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is a revote. We spent about $3,000.


John Alpheus Charlton: Even?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I say it is a revote. The people at Fort William were not able to build their hospital at the time, we are revoting the grant.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: How many of these are private hospitals; how many are public, and what is the per diem cost on a comparative basis as between private and public hospital.


Paul Joseph James Martin: To answer that question I would have to compile the information.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I can ask the questions separately. How many of these hospitals receiving grants are private hospitals operating under some church or some other organization?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Three of them are mission hospitals. Fort William is a general sanatorium, and Ashcroft is a general hospital.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: How many of the hospitals receiving grants are private hospitals, and how many are public?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I would have to answer that later, because it requires some compilation.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: And may I have the information as to the per diem cost on a comparative basis as between private and public hospitals?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I shall be glad to get that.


John Alpheus Charlton: I should like to have a list of the hospitals fcr which grants are



' COMMONS

[Stage Direction]
Supply-Health and Welfare
given and the auspices under which they are operated; whether they are missions, private hospitals or general hospitals. Then I should like to know if any expenditures are made for these hospitals by way of doctors' salaries, nurses' salaries, or anything of that kind. I understand that there are some hospitals receiving grants, and that, in addition, doctors' and nurses' salaries are being paid, and some supplies being bought.
Paul Joseph James Martin: That question is as detailed as the other one. Perhaps I could answer it partly. With respect to the hospital at Fort Smith-and does the hon. member want the religious denomination?


John Alpheus Charlton: Under what auspices are they operated?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Is the hon. member referring to the religious denomination?


John Alpheus Charlton: That is part of the question.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That one is a Roman
Catholic hospital. The one at Fort Simpson is Roman Catholic. One at Aklavik is Roman Catholic and the other is Church of England. The Fort William sanatorium is non-denominational as is the one at Ashcroft, British Columbia.


John Alpheus Charlton: What is the amount of the grant?


Paul Joseph James Martin: At Fort Smith it is $1,080; at Fort Simpson, $1,080, and the two at Aklavik are given $l,OS0 each. The Fort William sanatorium board is to receive $200,000, and the Ashcroft, British Columbia hospital board, $15,000.


John Alpheus Charlton: Is that the total number of hospitals receiving grants?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: Is any other expenditure made, in addition to grants for salaries or supplies?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The grants are for the
purpose of paying nurses' salaries in the mission hospitals.


Mr. ARCHIBALD:: Under this department does the government take responsibility or partial responsibility for the hospital at the Brunswick cannery on the Pacific coast?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No.


Mr. FULTON:: I should like to clear up something the minister said with regard to the hospital at Ashcroft. As I understand it, this is a revote of an amount authorized

last year for a capital expenditure for a wing which will take care of Indian patients.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, I was talking about a revote in connection with the Fort William hospital.


Edmund Davie Fulton: But the $15,000 is for a capital grant for a new wing which will take care of Indian patients, is it not? It is not for the payment of ordinary administrative expenses.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It was voted, but it was never paid because they did not build the wing.


Edmund Davie Fulton: But it was a capital grant; not for ordinary administrative expenses?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is right.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister's reply has left me in some doubt. He is not using his voice as much today, with the result that we ' cannot hear him.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Sometimes that is a good way to get along.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not know that it is in this instance. The minister has indicated that, of this $204,320, only $3,000 was actually used; is that correct? Yet he read off a list of subscriptions which would aggregate much more than $3,000. Are those amounts not yet expended, but included in this year's appropriation?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The $3,304 is what wrn gave to the small hospitals. The other $200,000 is a revote.


Donald Methuen Fleming: When the minister refers to a revote he means that there was nothing devoted to those particular hospitals last year, that the grant made now is a grant for capital expenditure, and that this is not an annual amount?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: The list of grants the minister read out totals more than $3,000.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Certainly.


John Alpheus Charlton: But the minister said that the total amount expended from the $204,320 voted last year was only $3,000. Is there $200,000 for capital grant made in one year? There is some discrepancy there.


Paul Joseph James Martin: When I reply to the hon. member for Grey North I shall give that detail.


Alan Cockeram: Is the minister aware that mining and lumbering operations in territories where there are Indians have consider-

Supply-Health and Welfare
able trouble with his department in handling those Indians? The people in charge of those operations are pleased to assist the department in looking after the Indians, but when it comes to a matter of settlement they have great difficulty in having their accounts paid. What arrangements are made for repayment when those bush hospitals look after Indian patients who seek treatment, under his department?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Has the hon. member a particular hospital in mind?


Alan Cockeram: I have in mind the hospital at Pickle Lake where we had eventually to refuse to handle Indian patients because we could not get anywhere with the department. Then there are hospitals in the Yukon where they had similar trouble.


Paul Joseph James Martin: This is the first time I have heard the complaint, but I shall look into it at once and speak to the hon. gentleman about it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: In the explanation the minister is going to make on this item, will he also cover the increase in the item? He has mentioned that approximately $200,000 is a revote, and that in addition to that there is another $19,000.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have said already that I shall be happy to do that.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I take it that this particular item covers grants to hospitals of all kinds which handle Indians, and I know the grants aggregate much more than the few thousand dollars the minister said were paid out last year under this item.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The cost of professional services were very high.


Douglas Scott Harkness: In other words, the grants made to these various hospitals are in the form of payments for professional services?


Paul Joseph James Martin: In the case of small hospitals, partly.


Mr. KNOWLES:: May I suggest that when hon. members speak, they rise and address the Chair. It is most difficult to hear the minister when he stays in his seat the way he does.


Douglas Scott Harkness: When the minister is producing the figures he is to produce for the hon. member for Grey North I suggest that at the same time he give the details of the grants or payments for professional services that have been made to various private hospitals which take in Indian patients.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: I should like to direct the attention of the minister to the hospital
at Brunswick, on the coast. This was mentioned to him by the Reverend Kelly, who is doing Indian work on the coast. He states that this hospital is run down and is located at a poor site. He contends that it would cost more than it is worth to rebuild it, and in considering future plans he would like to see a fifteen-bed hospital at Wadham's cannery site during the fishing season.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I shall be glad to look into that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National health and welfare-
227.	Civil aviation medicine, $25,035.
Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: This is a new item and I suppose the minister will have an explanation to give to the committee. Apparently this arises out of the research that was done during the war. There does not seem to be a head for this department and all the assistance seems to be of a temporary nature.


Paul Joseph James Martin: My hon. friend will understand that under the rules of the civil service a man is appointed temporarily for a probationary period. This is a new division and obviously you could not hajve anything but temporaries. For example, the new director, Doctor Emard of Cornwall, has just received his appointment from the civil service commission, and he will continue as temporary chief until he is confirmed in the position.
This is a new division created at the instance of the Department of Transport, which felt that they were in urgent need of medical advice for setting physical standards for civil flying personnel and for organizing and training medical service personnel to examine all prospective employees in civil aviation. It would assist in all medical examinations and advise on the suitability of applicants for employment from both mental and physical points of view. It would advise on all health problems connected with travel by air and would supervise industrial medical services at airports.
It was felt by both this department and by the Department of Transport that this division should be set up within the Department of National Health and Welfare. The purpose in this arrangement is to enable the medical officers to be closely associated with other medical officers in the public health service of the dominion government. They will attend staff meetings and take part in professional discussions; they will use the medical library and attend conferences of representatives of the various departments concerned with this endeavour.
Supply-Health and Welfare

It was thought that by this arrangement we can facilitate the close association which should be maintained between the new division, existing divisions, especially immigration medical services. I am sure the committee will appreciate that, with the advent of air travel by people from all parts of the world, there is a danger that these people will be potential vehicles for the communication of diseases of one kind and another. The closest attention and scrutiny must be given to those travelling by air, as is given to travellers on incoming vessels.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It would be interesting
to know the extent to which there will be cooperation between this new branch and the work in connection with civil aviation which was carried on by the R.C.A.F. medical branch during the war. This country has every reason to be proud of the work of that branch. We would want to be assured that there will be the closest cooperation between this new branch and the R.C.A.F. institute of aviation medicine in my riding and that, as far as possible, personnel for this department will be recruited from those who served with the medical branch of the R.C.A.F. during the war. The minister has referred to the qualifications of Doctor Emard, and I am sure the committee would be interested in knowing something of his relationship.


Paul Joseph James Martin: During the war Doctor
Emard was a R.C.A.F. doctor with distinguished service. After the war he had experience as head of one of the important hospitals in Quebec operated by D.V.A. As I say, he served in the R.C.A.F. and has a distinguished record. The liaison between the research division of the R.C.A.F. and this branch is not only one of intention; it is one that is actually in being. We shall work closely together for the reasons so well stated by the hon. gentleman.


Mr. LENNARD:: What salary will he
receive?


Paul Joseph James Martin: 


Alan Cockeram: There is an item for
travelling expenses, and in going through all the items for the department I find that travelling expenses total about half a million dollars. That seems a rather large item for one department of government in peace time and I wonder if we could have an explanation.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is a large item, but
that is necessarily so, and I think the hon. gentleman will appreciate that when he realizes the type of services rendered by all branches of the department. For instance, there are expenses in connection with servicing

the Department of Mines and Resources immigration branch, both abroad and at home ports. There are expenses involved in the movement of our officers in the nutrition division and the industrial hygiene division; there are the expenses entailed in moving sick, not to mention Indians; the travel of doctors and nurses. While the item is necessarily high, I think it is one that is fully justified.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Will the minister give
us some information with respect to the details given on page 175 of the estimates? There is an item, temporary assistance, $10,992. The details show $10,000 for temporary assistance; $43 for other pay-list items; professional and special services, $5,000. What are the functions, qualifications and salaries of the people doing this work?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The chief of the division, $6,000; one clerk grade 4, $1,944; stenographer grade 3, $1,704; stenographer grade 2, $1,344. There is an increase of $5,000 in professional and special services. It is considered that the services of independent medical officers will be required outside the operations of this division.


Stanley Howard Knowles: They are not permanent?


Paul Joseph James Martin: We are constantly consulting professional services in this division as in others.


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is the last item on the medical side of this department. Can the minister now give us the total expenditure for the year from the total 1946-47 estimate of $7,651,252? Second, he was going to give the actual expenditure under item 200, departmental administration. Third, what was the total amount spent by the department last year on educational and informational publicity?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The total estimate for 1946-47 was $7,651,252, and the expenditure, $5,996,763.60; unliquidated commitments, $262,999.09. The total expenditure in 1946-47 under item 200 was $434,091.25, but in addition there were outstanding commitments amounting to $26,787.26. The total expenditure on educational and informational publicity outside of outstanding commitments was $278,326.84.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What are the outstanding commitments?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have not got them but I will get them.


Mr. GREEN:: There was one other matter on which the minister was going to give some

Supply-Public Works
detail, and that was with regard to arthritis. He said on June 19, at page 4007 of Hansard:
The hon. member referred to arthritis, and perhaps later in the estimates I shall have more to say about this specific item.
The minister has already announced that there is to be a conference, but apparently one of the grave problems is hospital accommodation. I understand that only one hospital in Canada specializes in treating rheumatic diseases. Are any plans made for improving the hospitalization situation?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That whole matter will be discussed at the conference which is to take place very shortly, following our consultations with Lord Horder and Doctor Wallace Graham in Toronto.


Howard Charles Green: Has nothing been done to increase the hospital facilities for this disease since last year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is a matter for the provinces. We have nothing to do with hospitalization, but naturally that whole matter will be reviewed at the conference and ways and means suggested by which the provinces can deal with this matter.


Howard Charles Green: When will the conference be held?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am hoping that it will be in September. I should like to have it before that, but certain arrangements have to be made with certain people whom we want to attend.


Mr. HATFIELD:: What class of hospitals are exempt from sales tax on their supplies?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Bona fide public hospitals where medical and surgical treatments are given.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Why are not the supplies of private hospitals where the same treatment is given exempt?


William Henry Golding: Order. The item we are considering is civil aviation medicine.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I should like to have an explanation of the phrase "unliquidated commitments." What does that mean?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Commitments that have not been liquidated.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
279. Departmental administration, $227,019.
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: On a former occasion we had a lengthy discussion regarding postwar plans, but the minister at that time was
not prepared to indicate what plans his department had for the next two years or so. Can he make a general statement now with regard to major projects which he plans undertaking over a period of years?


Hon. ALPHONSE FOURNIER (Minister of Public Works):: During the year we tried to add to the staff of architects and engineers, but we are finding it difficult to keep even the staff we have now. Young engineers and architects seem to prefer private enterprise. The staff we have at the present time is working on plans for buildings throughout the country to meet the needs of different departments. The engineers are also working on plans for works on both coasts and along the great lakes and the St. Lawrence. Last fall I travelled from Ottawa to the western coast to see the conditions for myself.
There is no doubt that we lack office space for nearly every department in nearly every province. We also lack facilities on the coasts, but we have found that lack of material and of staff in the preparation of plans and specifications has hindered the progress which we should like to make. Furthermore, lack of materials and of man-power has also in many instances prevented us from proceeding with the works we had contemplated even in the main estimates. If hon. gentlemen will look over my estimates they will see that in connection with certain specified projects the word "revote" appears. The amount of money was granted by parliament last year, but we could not complete the plans and specifications in time, and often, when we did complete them, after asking for tenders we found that we could not get any bids. That condition existed in many parts of the country. This year we are asking parliament for the same votes, perhaps with some increase, but the increases in the main estimates of public works-


John Ritchie MacNicol: They are less than $5 million.


Alphonse Fournier: Yes, $3 million odd. The reason for the increase in the vote is, first, maintenance of public buildings in Ottawa, which is due mainly to reconversion from war to peace-time status. Many of these buildings, before the present year, were maintained out of appropriations under demobilization or war appropriations. They have been transferred to the main estimates. The second reason would be maintenance of public buildings outside Ottawa, owing to increase in salaries caused by absorption of cost of living bonus, as well as provision for 207 new positions and an increase in the salary range of various classes of employees. The third reason for the increase would be in the general pro-
Supply-Public Works

vincial repair appropriations for buildings and harbours necessitated by lack of repairs during the six years of war. We have increased that amount so that we can try this year at least to maintain our works in satisfactory repair condition. The fourth reason is that we have new items, totalling less than half a million dollars.
This year we expect that the situation as regards materials will ease up, and with a few additions to our staff we may be able to complete certain plans and specifications and proceed with certain works. I do not like to come before parliament with estimates of large amounts and next year come back and ask for a revote, but everyone will agree that my department is working under extraordinary conditions. If we were to proceed with a large programme of buildings-and I heard this all over the country-the first thing that would be said would be that this is no time to start large projects in view of the fact that materials are needed for housing, especially for veterans.
We have found that the increase in prices today is such that we might make an estimate in November or December, and later on, when we ask for bids, the tender would be far above the estimate we had made four or five months ahead of time. The department is not definite as to how much progress can be made even with the plans we have prepared right now. The department has to rely on the reports given by other departments, such as reconstruction, with respect to availability of materials, labour and man-power to carry out the works.
Mr. MaoNICOL: Will the minister tell the committee exactly what part his department plays in the general construction of works for all departments? During the last few hours we have heard a good deal about hospitalization, and I gathered from what was said that an architectural department will be set up in the branch which we were discussing. I was under the impression all the time that when hospitals or any other buildings under the federal government were needed-I do not mean large construction works-the departments concerned made a requisition to the architectural branch of the Public Works Department to draw up the necessary plans. Will the minister tell us what relation the Department of Public Works has to all the other departments as far as constructing public buildings is concerned?


Alphonse Fournier: We do undertake and execute works for every department. I may make an exception of the armed forces. The national defence department have a
(Mr. Fournier.]
branch dealing with their own buildings apart from buildings for office space. Another exception is reconstruction. They do works themselves through their own crown-owned companies. The ordinary departments of government, however, come to the Department of Public Works. Take, for instance, health and welfare. If they need hospitals for Indians they get a vote for the purpose and make a transfer to public works. In cooperation with the architect they have at the head of the hospital designs branch of that department, we prepare plans or have an outside architect, under our supervision, prepare them. Outside public works, you will find, in external affairs, for instance, an architect who travels around and looks after our buildings outside this country. There are a few architects in the veterans affairs department who are also interested in hospital designing and the supervision of the different buildings they need for the care of veterans. I cannot recall whether there are other departments which have architects. Those are the three main departments. In health and welfare, notably, they have one architect who has specialized in hospital designing. I do not know whether he makes designs himself, but he is the kind of expert adviser we would have to prepare plans for hospitals. That is, as I see it, the justification for this special branch in health and welfare, especially since they have taken over Indian affairs hospitalization.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am glad to hear the minister say that, because I for one was alarmed, in view of what we heard this afternoon, that other departments would set up their own architectural staffs. In the old days and all down through the years, to my knowledge-and I used to have a good deal to do with the public works department, particularly the architectural branch-the Department of Public Works made all the plans for the public buildings of this country.


Alphonse Fournier: We do all this work of making the plans and specifications through our architect's branch in the Department of Public Works. I believe it was only during the war that this situation has come to the fore and that certain men having these special qualifications have been taken on. But still, when these departments do propose any works, this architect in the Department of National Health and Welfare would be the man who would be the liaison officer with our own department to explain the things they need and the way they would like to have the plans prepared. I do not believe it would be a good policy to extend appointments of architects to every department.

Supply-Public Works


John Ritchie MacNicol: I agree.


Alphonse Fournier: I am glad to have my hon. friend's advice on that. I am convinced that in our department we have experienced men.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The very best.


Alphonse Fournier: They are men who have been in construction work for years and years. They are trained. Some of them have spent their lives in the department and have an experience which no ordinary architect in private practice would have. I do not consider that these departments should try to take over and divide up the architect's branch of the Department of Public Works; but in certain instances, for special work such as hospitals, I think there is no harm in having a man to advise the minister concerned as to modern developments in the construction of hospitals. I believe he would be a help to our own architects in that special line. Once again, let me say that I do not believe it should become the practice of dividing up the architects branch among the departments.


John Ritchie MacNicol: From years of experience, I can say that the Department of Public Works has excellent engineers in all the various branches, such as heating, ventilating, air conditioning, and everything pertaining to buildings. To me it would be too bad if other departments were setting up architects to carry on what the Department of Public Works is so well qualified to do, having such well qualified men in its architectural branch. I am glad to hear what the minister says.


Alphonse Fournier: I should not like to allow that remark to pass without joining in the sentiments and kind words of praise for our officials which the hon. member has expressed. He is someone who knows these officials. For five years I personally have had contact with them, and I tell not only my colleagues but many other people that I think we have the best civil servants in those two branches-engineers and architects-that can be found in the country.


John Ritchie MacNicol: There are none better.


William Irvine: I have a great number of immediate demands for public buildings. I have discussed the matter with the minister on several occasions, and he has been most kind and considerate in going over the possibilities with me. I appreciate the difficulties which he has in the matter of public buildings, particularly those which are caused by shortages in building material. Will he be good enough to make a statement as to the position of his department with respect to public
buildings? Is there any sign that in the near future he may be able to proceed with a greater programme of construction? I do not intend to give a list of the number of public buildings which are immediately necessary in the riding of Cariboo, but I would call to the minister's attention the requirements of the town of Clinton for a post office, of Williams Lake for a public building, and particularly of Quesnel for a public building. Since I have been on his doorstep for some years with regard to these public buildings, I should like the minister to make a statement so that the people of these towns and villages may have some understanding of the situation.


Alphonse Fournier: Actually the
government occupies 762 public buildings all through the country. They are government-owned buildings. We have leases of premises for ordinary departments in 597 buildings and leases for war purposes-that is, for offices occupied by departments which, we believe, will disappear as time goes by-in 147, making a total of 1,506 buildings all over the country. In my main estimates I have down, for every province, a large number of items for repairs or additions to our actual buildings all through the country. We tried to use that vote last year but have made very little progress because no one seems to want to bid on a firm basis. As you know, during the war many of the works were constructed on a cost-plus percentage or fee basis. Today contractors hesitate to tender firm bids because of the material situation, prices and even the labour situation. I am told that the contractors all over the country are so busy with work for private enterprise, which they prefer, and which they can generally have on a cost-plus basis, that they decline to tender on a firm basis. I wish to say here that even during the war the Department of Public Works -and I agree with my officials-would not change the procedure which has been established in that department for many decades, whereby they ask for tenders and give out the contracts to the lowest bidder. Contractors are beginning to come back-and I hope they will do so-to the idea that for government purposes that is still the best policy which can be followed. I say that without criticism of what was done by the government during the war. In normal times the only way to satisfy the public, when spending their money, is to give an equal chance to everybody to tender for the works which are to be undertaken. All through the country I have requests, not only from members, but from the various departments of
Supply-Public Works

government, and especially from my colleague the Postmaster General.


Mr. BOUCHER:: Is he worse than the rest?


Alphonse Fournier: I would not say worse, but I have a lengthy list from his department, endorsing requests made by members of parliament, not only on this side of the house, but on all sides. We cannot see our way clear during this fiscal year, however, to put up those buildings. We are trying to make a start. I have some estimates providing for the purchase of sites, in preparation for putting up these buildings, but as to the actual construction I am afraid I cannot assure the hon. gentleman that during this fiscal year we can expend even the sums contained in the estimates. I am told, however, that next year probably the material situation will have eased, and I am sure I shall have the support of all hon. members especially those who come to see me and ask me to put up buildings in their ridings, in putting through my estimates to give different communities the buildings they need for the public service.


John Bracken: I do not want to interrupt the questions the hon. member for Cariboo is asking, but perhaps he will follow on after I have asked one. The matter I am going to raise will not take very long. The question of new buildings across Canada, as the hon. member for Cariboo has pointed out, is important, but this afternoon I want to raise the question of caring for some of the buildings we already have. I refer particularly to the building in which we now sit. I want to protest against the condition of this chamber at this moment. It is not fair to ask hon. members to sit here with the draught we feel today. This matter was raised a short time ago by the hon. member for Queens. I wish some hon. gentlemen opposite could sit here and feel the draught on the back of our necks. I want to ask the minister who is responsible for the ventilation of this chamber; and, if it is his department, what steps have been taken to correct it. This is not the first time we have had this condition. It is a frequent occurrence, but today it is just a little worse than I have ever known it. I do not blame hon. members for leaving the chamber and refusing to sit here under these conditions. Would the minister explain why this cannot be corrected; or, if it can be corrected, why he does not take steps to have this done?


Alphonse Fournier: After the complaint was made in the committee about an

hour ago, I made inquiries, but I received different reports. While sitting here, I received one report that an hon. member, coming into the building from the heat outside, just walked into the lobby and opened the windows. Is that correct? I do not know, but I have that information.


Edmund Davie Fulton: They are now closed.


Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):: Just sit here and feel the draught on your neck.


Alphonse Fournier: If you will give me time I will give the picture as it has been given to me. If it is true that the windows were opened I am afraid I cannot be on the job every moment telling the officials to close them. There is a ventilating system here; and I am told that today the officials put on the fans, in view of the heat outside. The moment the complaint was made, someone went down and turned off those fans.


Mr. STIRLING:: But it is still blasting.


Alphonse Fournier: But the effect does not disappear the moment you turn off the fans. Another person came in and told me that the moment you open the doors in the ladies' gallery, the wind blows from one end of the chamber to the other. There may be ten reasons why we are not comfortable, but we are constantly endeavouring to find ways and means of seeing to it that every member of parliament will feel comfortable at all times, on both sides of the chamber.


John Bracken: Is this condition peculiar to this side of the house, or it is general? There is a strong draught on my back, and I assure the minister it is most objectionable. There should be some way to correct it. With a proper system of ventilation, we should not have to put up with such a condition.


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that the exhaust fans are on that side of the house, I have just asked my deputy if he can correct that condition and he says probably they will have to be put on both sides.


William Irvine: Could the minister not
remove the vacuums which are on that side of the house, which would cause the draughts?


William Henry Golding: There is a draught on this side of the house as well. I know last evening the hon. member for Algoma East was sitting here and had to leave the chamber because of the draught. So it is not only on that side.


John Bracken: That is an added reason, though not quite so important as the one I raised.

Supply-Public Works


Mr. FARQUHAR:: This is not something that has happened recently. This draught has been very bad for the last month or more.
I have gone down and spoken to the engineer to see if the situation could be remedied, but apparently very little has been done. I just cannot stay in the chamber part of the time because of the tremendous draught over here. Anyone with asthma will feel it very badly.


George Russell Boucher: 
Alphonse Fournier: For many years I have not received so much support from an hon. member as I have within the past few moments from the hon. member for Carleton. I hope, when I bring in estimates involving the expenditure of large sums of money for all the public works suggested to me, he will continue his support. I thank him, right now.


George Russell Boucher: I would always support the improvement of a dirty building.


Alphonse Fournier: I agree that our buildings are in a poor condition. But let me remind the hon. member that at one time
Supply-Public Works

during the war years my estimates were down as low as $12 million or $13 million. All agreed at that time that our policy was a good one, and that during the war we should direct all our effort to the winning of the war. I recall days when my estimates would be passed in fifteen or twenty minutes, and that fact did not surprise me greatly because the committee was not agreeing to very much.
Now that the war is over, we are adding every year to the estimates and increasing the staff. In the city of Ottawa we own fifty-two buildings. But does the committee know how many buildings we rent in this city? We rent ninety-six buildings right in this city of Ottawa. That goes to show that the government does lack government-owned space. The right policy would be to have our own buildings in a good state of repair, and we are working toward that end.
My good friend chose about the oldest buildings when he was describing their poor condition. Some of them were built as far back as confederation.


George Russell Boucher: Is it that long ago since the walls were cleaned?


Alphonse Fournier: Every government must take its share of responsibility for not having kept them in good condition. I have noticed this state of affairs; but, as the years go on, one of the buildings to which the hon. member referred will probably change some of its uses. At the present time it houses the Department of Finance, which has become most important. The time may come when it may require more space and will want to move somewhere else. We also have there the Department of External Affairs, which twenty years ago did not exist, but has now become most important. The privy council is lodged in the same building.
Our intention is to try to keep that building for the privy council, the Prime Minister's office and the Department of External Affairs. But we cannot so easily get rid of a department as important as the Department of Finance. We have not yet found a location which would suit the needs of that department.
However, I would not be discouraged. Anyone who will look into the work of this department will see that it is a most interesting one. It is not intellectual or spiritual; one gets right down to-


Stanley Howard Knowles: Dirt.


Alphonse Fournier: earth. Every time a lavatory is not in working condition,

someone will be kind enough to tell the minister there is something wrong in his department. If a charwoman is sick, or there is some difficulty in connection with the payment of her wages, the minister will receive a letter; he will hear about it. And during all this time the thousands of employees in the department are doing their best, with the moneys available, to do their jobs.


George Russell Boucher: I am not asking the minister to make any grandiose expenditures in Ottawa, nor am I asking him to erect new buildings. But if at the present time we cannot have new buildings, and cannot make large expenditures, at least we should keep the buildings we have in better condition than they are now being kept. Surely it would not take much money from the dominion treasury to clean or to redecorate the walls, and to improve the lighting facilities so as to make those buildings already constructed sanitary and healthful. That would not be difficult. I believe the minister agrees with me, but I do not like to have him suggest that I am asking for heavy expenditures when, in fact, I am asking only that the government maintain its present buildings in decent condition.


Alphonse Fournier: I go to the east block every day, and I know it well. I do not know if it would be worth while to clean the walls, because most of those walls should be torn down. It should be repartitioned or divided for the needs of the departments we shall have there. We could spend $20,000 or $25,000 on the building, but in a year or so we would have to tear some of those walls down. They are old buildings. That building would require complete reconstruction; we could keep the shell; probably, and build something new inside. That would not be a grandiose project; it would be useful, but it would cost a lot of money and require a lot of material.


Mr. FAIR:: Complaints have been made practically every session since I came here, and are still being made, about accommodation in this building. While those of us in the house are privileged to bring our complaints to the minister-even though he does not act upon them in all cases-there are others who cannot voice their complaints. I refer to the stenographic staff in this building, who are perhaps the right arms of the members. They, too, have complaints which reach the members from day to day, but wrhich have not yet been attended to. I understand that at the present time (heir working condi-

Supply-Public Works
tions are considerably worse than they have been for a number of years past. I do not know if anything is being done by the minister, but if nothing has been done I suggest that it should be. These people are expected to do their work efficiently, and they should have much better working conditions than they have at the present time.


Mr. HERRIDGE:: I wish to compliment the engineers and fieldmen of the department who are operating in British Columbia. I believe they are closely connected with their problems, and are giving very satisfactory service. However I would make a criticism of the department's architectural branch in British Columbia. I am sure they are not fully aware of modern working conditions and the circumstances under which people in this day and age should be asked to work.
For a number of years I have followed closely the recommendations in British Columbia in connection with certain buildings and projects, and in my opinion the architectural staff of the department, as it operates in British Columbia, is old fashioned in methods, old fashioned in ideas, bureaucratic, and slower than molasses.
Let me give an illustration: For some years the accommodation in the public building at Trail has been most inadequate. A number of young girls employed in the post office found it necessary to eat their lunches in the building. The branch made a survey of the whole building, and it was then proposed by this branch that the girls should eat their lunches in the basement in which there is a continuous foul odour from the sewer. I should like the gentleman in question to eat his lunch there for a few months in succession.
Then I wish to complain about the lighting in these public buildings. I know two or three people whose eyesight has been badly effected by having to work under poor lights. I am referring particularly to the post offices at Trail and Nelson. At small expense the lighting in these buildings could be improved. People having to sort mail and work with figures are now forced to work under lights placed on high ceilings, and there is no necessity for that when a small expenditure would permit them to work under good lighting conditions.
I should also like to refer to the discrepancy in janitors' salaries. I have never been able to get the real basis upon which janitors are paid. In one place a man receives a higher salary for doing less than another man
receives for doing more. I urge an inquiry into these inequalities.
I urge the minister to check up on the architectural branch in British Columbia. I suggest that he visit, the province to see some of the things I have mentioned. I think my criticism is correct, that these officials are old fashioned in their ideas, bureaucratic in their methods and slower than molasses.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is the minister in a position to make a statement with regard to the negotiations in connection with the new post office in Winnipeg? I am not pressing that immediate action be taken, but there is keen interest in this matter and I hope the minister is ready to tell us whether a new site has been purchased and, if so, where it is. If a site has not been purchased, could he tell us whether the request of the greater Winnipeg town planning commission that they be consulted before the site is finally chosen has been acceded to?


Alphonse Fournier: I was in Winnipeg to look over the situation in October last, and our architect, Mr. Parkinson, drove me to four different sites. One was Grace church; another one was a block close to a newspaper building where there are some old buildings; another was across from the federal building which was built around 1934, and the other one escapes my mind. The secretary of the greater Winnipeg town planning commission spent some time with me when I was in Winnipeg. He did not come with me to visit the different sites, but I asked him if his commission had any suggestions to make and I named the different sites that I had visited. He would not commit the town planning commission. All he wanted to know was the decision of the government as to the site, so that they could continue their planning with the knowledge that we would have this new post office on a specific site. He would not tell me that the commission would take the responsibility of choosing a site; they left that to the officials of my department. He told me that when they got that information they would continue their planning, keeping in mind where the building would be erected. We have appointed real estate men as valuators in connection with one of these sites, the one across from. the newspaper building.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Across from the Winnipeg Tribune?


Alphonse Fournier: I think that is the one. We have people working and they
Supply-Public Works

will send in reports as to the values of these sites and then we shall expropriate or purchase by agreement.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is that likely to take place soon?


Alphonse Fournier: If we have to proceed by expropriation, I cannot say exactly when that will be.


George Russell Boucher: Do not let the speculators go to work on that property.


Alphonse Fournier: I think we shall have to proceed by expropriation. I find that when there are different owners and we start to purchase property prices go up, or the property changes hands and we have a lot of trouble. I believe the decision will be * to take expropriation proceedings on that block and then make offers based on the valuations handed to us by the people we have appointed. Up to now we have had no definite reports concerning the valuations. I understand that we are waiting to get the valuations from our men before taking expropriation proceedings and then we will make offers.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is the minister or his department keeping in touch with the town planning commission, not because they have to, but as a matter of courtesy?


Alphonse Fournier: I have not the file here, but I have had some correspondence with them in recent weeks. I recall that "it was after my visit out west. I found them most helpful in the way in which they explained the work they were doing for Winnipeg, and we assured them we would cooperate with them. When I left them we were the best of friends.


William Irvine: I wish to bring up a matter concerning dredging in the narrows of Quesnel lake. If the minister prefers that I bring it up under some other item, that is all right with me, but I want to be sure I have an opportunity of bringing it up.


Alphonse Fournier: I think the hon. member should wait for the item on dredging.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: For about twelve years we tried to have the McKellar river dredged, but now it is being lowered, which should prove a splendid stimulant to the growing industries of the two progressive cities at the head of the lakes. I think anyone who loves flowers would be remiss if he did not express appreciation for the way in which the federal district commmission keeps the grounds around this parliament building. I have had many enjoyable times out there.

I have another matter I should like to bring before the minister. During the recess last summer the Speaker of this house visited different houses of parliament and other large buildings in an effort to see if something could not be done to improve the acoustics in this chamber. I think the Minister of Public Works would do well if he saw that each member got a copy of that report. During this recess he might continue his investigation and have something done. Personally I am in a happy position because I can hear nearly everything that goes on in this house-sometimes I hear too much-but sometimes hon. members find it difficult to hear other hon. members when they are speaking in different parts of the house. We invite the public to the galleries and we expect them to hear. It would be a good thing for them to hear what is going on. The press gallery also have a great deal of difficulty in hearing what is said in the chamber, but the members of the press gallery are very patient and can wait a while and read Hansard. My request is that that report of the Speaker should be made available to every member of this chamber.


Alphonse Fournier: I do not know that I have any authority to ask the Speaker to table the report. I was under the impression that the report had been circulated. As I remember the report, it was not very favourable. I think if the hon. member would just ask Mr. Speaker he would readily furnish him with a copy of the report.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I have a copy, but I think every member should have one.


Alphonse Fournier: I can transmit
that request to His Honour the Speaker who, I believe, will have the report distributed.


Mr. JAQUES:: I wish to bring to the
minister's attention the condition of a pier fn a lake in my riding, which was built by the Department of Public Works a few years ago.


Alphonse Fournier: We are on the first item of my department concerning administration on which a general discussion takes places. If the hon. member wishes to bring up any specific project, perhaps he will wait until the engineering item comes up.


Norman Jaques: I could not see any item on which I could raise this question. Would the minister indicate the item?


Alphonse Fournier: I believe the item would be the one concerning engineering works in Alberta.

Supply-Public Works


Norman Jaques: Thank you.


Thomas Langton Church: I want fair play from the Chair. I rose three times before the hon. member who got the floor and you did not see me, Mr. Chairman.


William Ross Macdonald: I think I should assure the hon. member for Broadview that if I had seen him first I would have called on him first. It is my duty to endeavour to see representatives of the different parties and to divide the time of the committee as fairly as possible among the different parties. I know I do not succeed-


Mr. JOHNSTON:: You do very well.


Angus MacInnis: Very well indeed.


Thomas Langton Church: I have been here for a long time and have never been treated in that way before. I obey the rules and I want fair play; that is all. I call the minister's attention to the fact that the hon. member for Fort William might have been killed the other night when he was crossing the road, because of traffic conditions and speed of cars around these buildings. The method of parking cars around this building is very dangerous. I have never seen the like of it before. It was complained of by the hon. member for Waterloo South the other day. Cars are parked all around this building, and those beside the east block reserved on a public roadway for some with permits. You are spending money in beautifying the grounds and look at what you have got. The cars should be removed.
Then look at the monuments around this building. All or none should be in the front. You can hardly see Sir John A. Macdonald's monument from the main entrance with the cars in front, and D'Arcy McGee's monument is down at the rear of the building where they put in the coal. Of course the Irish do not look for any favours here. Alexander Mackenzie, prime minister, who slept on the strong box, is to one side, with cars in front too. There should be some reallocation of all these monuments in the public interest. The minister may shake his head, but I believe there should be. I have seen people sitting on the monuments reading newspapers, and all that kind of thing. There should be some regulation forbidding them, and regulation of traffic. It would not be allowed at Washington, and car parking is not allowed on the streets in downtown Toronto. There was a big fire in Hull recently, and it was fortunate the wind was blowing the other way, or this building might have caught fire from wood piles. One of the bridges caught fire and was out of commission for weeks. We should do something to protect this building on which we have spent more than $20,000,000.
As to the upkeep of the grounds, I am not complaining about the grounds because they are very well kept and the flowers were very good this year.
Then there is the smoke nuisance, which is very bad. The government should set the example in abating this nuisance in all its buildings.
Something should be done for the char women to better their wages and labour conditions, and particularly should something be done about the monuments, a great many of which are now in the backyard. Also new parking regulations should be made and enforced.
Item stands.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at seven o'clock.



DEPARTMENT OP NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE

[Stage Direction]
Welfare branch-
228.	Welfare branch administration, $38,846.
Howard Charles Green: When we dropped the consideration of these estimates this afternoon I was about to ask the minister if he would make a statement with regard to the policy on community centres. During the war people in the various communities of Canada learned to work together much better than they had done in times of peace, or so it seemed to me. They had so many common interests, were organized for air-raid precaution work, Red Cross work and activities of one hundred and one different kinds, and as a result there developed across the country a fine community spirit. With the war over, there seems to be an eagerness to keep that spirit alive, to keep the people of the different settlements in the country working closely together. One of the main objectives is the establishment of community centres.
There are very good reasons for the establishment of such centres. The benefits are, I think, obvious to all members of the committee; they include helping the young men and women who have come back to become rehabilitated and also helping in the improvement of the health of (he people generally.
Supply-Health and Welfare

I am sure that everyone in this house during the war was shocked at the large percentage of rejections for the forces because of physical disabilities. I have not the percentage at hand at the moment, but I think it was approximately fifty per cent, in a country where standards of living are as high as anywhere else in the world. Benefits also will follow in the way of checking juvenile delinquency, which has become quite a problem throughout the country.
I thought the former Minister of National Health and Welfare, the present Minister of National Defence (Mr. Claxton), emphasized the importance of these centres very clearly in a statement which he made some time ago and which I will quote. He said, in a radio address:
I think one of the ways in which we can gain a new sense of cultural and social purpose after the war is through community centres. They will provide in each city and town a meeting place where all citizens can make their contribution to our social life, to art, to music, drama and sport. Community centres may very well produce more fine arts, more composers and musicians, more dramatists and actors, more poets and writers. Community centres can make a major contribution to the development of creative expression in Canada. Community centres can also, I feel, make a major contribution to the solution of the problems of adjustment that many of our service men will find on their return to civilian life.
I have learned from the minister's department that in every province there are many community centres being developed at the present time. A year or two ago there was a Gallup poll on the question, which was put to the people in the following terms:
After the war should memorials be mainly in the form of monuments, or in .the form of playing grounds, clubs, hospitals, schools and so on?
The result of the poll showed that those who wanted monuments were only ten per cent, while those who wanted useful memorials were ninety per cent. The figures for Great Britain and Australia on the same question were almost identical. In Australia, only four per cent wanted monuments and ninety-six per cent, memorials; and in Great Britain nine per cent wanted monuments and ninety-one per cent, useful memorials. So that in developing these community centres our people not only have the idea that benefits will follow, but are also building them up as memorials to our fighting men.
I want to ask the minister where the federal government fits into this picture. I suggest

to him that the very fact that these centres are designed in most cases as war memorials gives the federal government some responsibility. From my own point of view, it would have been very wise for Canada to adopt as a memorial to the fighting men of this war some such scheme rather than the beautification of the Ottawa district. I am the last one to say that the national capital should not be beautified, but I think that as a war memorial such a project is not entirely fitting. Certainly it will be of little use as a war memorial to anyone in the more distant provinces. The vast majority of such people will never even see the development and it will mean little to them. My opinion is that we would have been wiser to adopt a broad scheme of building up community centres as a war memorial.
The dominion also has a responsibility because so many veterans are involved1, and the care of the veteran is primarily the job of the dominion government. Further, I do not think there is any other way of coordinating the construction of these community centres. The cities cannot do it; the provinces cannot do it. Any effective coordination must come from the dominion, and if there is to be a national planning of such centres it must be done by the dominion.
I suggest to the minister also that the dominion might very well help in the financing of these community centres. That is done in Great Britain. I have here a booklet which the department was kind enough to lend to me. It is entitled "Community Centres", is written by John P. Kidd, and published through the agency of the Canadian council of education for citizenship. At page 79, on the subject of financing community centres in Great Britain, I find these words:
In Great Britain the ministry of education is providing grants up to 50 per cent of capital costs for new centres, and substantial grants towards extensions of present facilities.
On the following page there is some reference to what might have been done in Canada, and the extract is as follows:
At the present time, as far as is known, there is no other federal government provision for either helping to build or maintain community centres.
That is, other than wartime housing centres. Then this article goes on to say:
A deputy minister when asked what the possibilities were of such aid, stated that it was his unofficial opinion that the federal government would cooperate and share the cost with both provincial and municipal bodies, but that the initiation of individual community centres must start in the community.

Supply-Health and Welfare
That deputy minister may have been taking a good deal for granted, but I hope he was not, because he had a good idea. The suggestion has been made in British Columbia that the cost of these community centres should be split four ways, namely between the dominion, the province, the municipality and the people in the district itself. It is felt that the people in the district should accept the primary responsibility. That is essential if the community centre is to be successful. But it is also felt that the dominion should be prepared to contribute at least one-quarter of the cost.
I should like to say a word in praise of the leaders in the communities, who build up these centres. It is a difficult job and one which requires great patience, great tact and great energy. Always, where you find a good community centre you find some extremely good people behind it.
The dominion could also help by providing for the training of instructors. I find that advocated in the report of the dominion's own director of physical fitness published on April 1, 1946, where he uses these words:
It is apparent that Canada does not at present possess a sufficient number of well-trained leaders to organize an adequate physical fitness programme.
The national council on physical fitness, at their meeting in Victoria on April 5-9, 1945, had recommended as follows:
The council, recognizing the need for trained leaders, will encourage the appropriate authorities throughout the dominion to establish training courses for community leaders. By the addition of these courses to already existing ones, it is hoped that a large number of leaders will be trained this year . . .
The council endorses the principle of establishing community, recreational and cultural centres or other related recreational facilities, as war memorials.
I realize that something is being done by the council on physical fitness and by the minister's department generally to help in the training of these instructors, but there is much more to be done andi the dominion must go farther than it has already gone. Also, help could be given by the minister's department in the way of coordinating the activities in the community centres, in getting out programmes for such activities. I think the department should be represented on the various committees which are trying to build up these centres.
There may be many other ways in which the federal government could help. Probably other hon. members will have additional ideas.
In any event, I should like to have the minister tell us just what the policy of the government is with regard to these community centres. At the present time, when there is so much uncertainty as to what way of life we are to have across the world and when there seem to be different ideas in competition for men's support, I would point out that it is vitally important that we should promote all those activities which make for a fuller life in the communities across the country.


Angus MacInnis: Before the minister replies, I should like to support the excellent presentation which has just been made by the hon. member for Vancouver South. Like him, I should like to express my appreciation of the work done by people in my own community- that is, in the city of Vancouver-in promoting community centres. Work done in this connection should be all the more appreciated because it is done under great financial difficulties and requires a great deal of hard, grinding effort in order to find the money to carry it on, to provide the amusements, to work out the programmes and all that sort of thing.
Last winter I was invited to a little affair arranged by one of the community centres in Vancouver, the hon. member for Vancouver South was also there. I was indeed impressed with the work they were doing. I felt guilty that I myself did not have more to do with it. There is in Vancouver an organization called the Greater Vancouver community council. Last winter this organization prepared a brief which was submitted to the federal government, I believe-very likely to the Department of National Health and Welfare -and also to the provincial governments and to the municipal authorities. The minister of education of British Columbia has gone so far as to set up a committee to investigate the need for action in this matter. This committee consists of representatives of the Vancouver school board, a representative of the city parks board, a representative of the university of British Columbia, a representative of the provincial government and a representative of the Greater Vancouver community council. The committee will note that it has widespread support throughout the community and, by virtue of the approval of the provincial government, support throughout the province. Of course anything I say in regard to this matter will, of necessity, relate to Vancouver, because that is the only part of the province I know anything about in this connection. In the brief presented by the Greater Vancouver community council to
Supply-Health and Welfare

the various governments four proposals are made which it was felt would meet the need. I will take the time of the committee to read those proposals; then they will be on record, and I think their reasonableness will appeal to hon. members. They are:
1.	The governments of the dominion of Canada and of the province of British Columbia and the city of Vancouver should financially assist in the construction and operation of community centres in approved locations in the city of Vancouver and surrounding territory.
2.	Such financial assistance should be by way of each of the two governments and the city contributing "dollar for dollar" raised by the people of the community requiring the centre- in other words each of the four parties should contribute one-quarter of the cost.
I want the committee to note that those promoting these community centres are willing to do their share by going out and raising one-quarter of whatever amount of money is required for the purpose.
3.	The board of park commissioners for Vancouver, upon whose property the approved buildings would be constructed in Vancouver, should be appointed as the administrative body for the grants and all applications would be approved as to grant, site and plans by the said board.
4.	The community associations and the parks hoard would either individually or collectively take such action as the government may deem necessary to make themselves eligible as recipients for grants from any special fund which either of the governments may have to draw upon.
I appreciate that this deals only with one small part of the community, while the hon. member for Vancouver South was urging a programme that would be applicable all across Canada. However, if this programme could be made operative in Vancouver or British Columbia, perhaps similar programmes could be made operative in other parts of the dominion. The point raised by the hon. member for Vancouver South, as to the federal government assisting and organizing centres of this type right across Canada is, to my mind, a timely proposal and one to which the department should give earnest consideration.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: The two hon. members from Vancouver have made the suggestion that the community or the city should do something itself. I would be remiss if I did not say that the junior chamber of commerce of Fort William went out and collected S100,000 for their community centre. If there is any hope of getting anything from the dominion government to encourage those young men we shall be glad to get it; but we have taken

the first step. Whether the dominion government does anything or not, we are going ahead anyway, because both the lakehead cities feel that this is a most important job. If you are going to reduce your police forces it will only be by taking care of your boys and girls through good clean recreation and athletics.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. member for Vancouver South has spoken to me privately about this matter, and the hon. member for New Westminster has both spoken and written to me about it as well. I have listened with great interest to what all hon. gentlemen have had to say, and I am sure the committee will agree with the general objectives which have been outlined. There can be no doubt of the value of community centres. The experience in Britain and some of the European countries, of which I have some personal knowledge, is certainly corroborative of what has been said tonight. Likewise as an agency to control juvenile delinquency, there can be no doubt about the value of community centres, as well as for the purpose of creating general interest in what one might call the more worth-while things.
Of course I must remind the committee, and the committee will appreciate, that in this matter we can hardly compare Great Britain with our country. We are a federal state; Great Britain is a unitary state. The provinces are properly jealous of their constitutional powers. We have heard much in this house, and rightly so, of the dangers of over-centralization; and I should think if there was one field in which the community effort could best be emphasized it would be in this particular field. I believe that orderly government in this country depends largely upon the orderly working of the various jurisdictions of government, municipal, provincial and federal; and, desirable as many of these things are, one has to bear in mind constantly the division of constitutional powers. The matter is not just as easy as it has been portrayed, for in some of the provinces there is not only a jealous regard for their jurisdiction in these matters but, more than that, we have been told this is a field they regard as properly their own. It has been generally accepted, certainly up to the present time, that the basic responsibility for the development of these community centre projects belongs on the level of the provincial governments. Indeed in some provinces, certainly in one that I recall offhand, there is legislation covering this very matter;

Supply-Health and Welfare
and in one other province, where there is no legislation but some financial assistance given by some other meithod, there is a strong insistence that this is a matter coming within the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces and that it must be so regarded, and we in turn so regard it.
As the hon. gentleman has said, during the war in respect of wartime construction through the Wartime Housing and under my colleague the Minister of Reconstruction, certain community centres were created. That was the case in my own city; and I know of the great work and the great usefulness of those agencies from the point of view of promoting interest in art, music, the handicrafts, and so on. I can only say that in the proposals made by the dominion to the provinces at the dominion-provincial conference reference was made to the willingness of the dominion government to accept responsibility for the provision of community planning information, and to the federal government's willingness, under certain conditions, to assist the provinces and municipalities financially in the planning and carrying out of certain types of public projects. Those projects could easily come within that category; but, as my hon. friend knows, it would depend upon a pretty wide measure of agreement. However I do not think I can offer the hon. member any more encouragement, in the light of the fact that, in the nature of things, I believe the problem is essentially provincial. That is also the legal basis.
During the war, under the War Charities Act, which was administered by the Department of National War Services, and in the liquidating stages by this department, moneys were collected by various organizations, including the Canadian Legion, for the purpose of doing the very thing my hon. friend has mentioned, namely, that of creating as war memorials recreational centres, community centres and the like. Some of these funds are still in the stage of liquidation, and some have been realized. As a result, some projects have been built. I fully agree with the desirable object mentioned. Communities, such as the one to which the hon. member for Fort William has referred, can do a great deal themselves, and should be encouraged to do it, particularly in respect of purely community efforts.
I believe I can say no more to the hon. member which would be of pertinent relevance, and would only assure him that the problem is one of continuing interest.


Howard Charles Green: The minister did not deal
with the question of helping to train instructors. He did not say whether the dominion has drawn up any general plan for the construction and operation of community centres. Has any leadership been given along those lines?


Paul Joseph James Martin: As my hon. friend knows, under the vocational scheme of the Department of Labour, in Nova Scotia for instance, that sort of thing is done.


Howard Charles Green: What about the plans?
Has the dominion any general plans for the construction and operation of community centres? Does it give leadership of that
type?


Paul Joseph James Martin: We are collecting them
all the time and are very glad to pass them on.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What were the expenditures last year on the item?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The estimate for last year was 837,635. The actual expenditures for the same period were $25,060.31, and the unliquidated commitments were $2,015.18.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Welfare branch-
Family allowances-
229.	Administration, $1,904,397.
(Translation):
Mr. MICHAUD:: Mr. Chairman, while the national health and welfare estimates are before the house, I wish to make a few observations pertaining to the family allowances act.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Hear, hear!


Benoît Michaud: First, may I emphasize once more the beneficial scope of this most important piece of social legislation.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Hear, hear!


Benoît Michaud: It should be pointed out, however, that most countries with a civilization comparable to our own provide legislation of this type. According to a pamphlet released before the 1945 election, family allowances have been granted in some thirty countries, and in New Zealand more particularly, for over 20 years.
In the course of my remarks, I wish to stress what I consider a gaip in the allowance act and respectfully beg the government to improve this piece of legislation at the very first opportunity. Since the end of the war, the government has had to deal with a mass
Supply-Health and Welfare

of extremely important problems entailing much lengthier sessions than those which were held formerly. For that reason, I feel it may well be excused for not yet having considered the improvements which I shall suggest and for which large families all over the country are clamouring.
I hope, however, that during the next year or two, when sessions will have resumed their normal duration, the government will find time to investigate with care the possibility of readjusting the monthly allowance grant.
The provision of the act which I now take the liberty of criticizing is that which I shall call the unexplainable decreasing rate, applied from the fifth child on.
I have not delved into the operation of family allowance legislation in other countries, but according to an article written by Father Leon Lebel, chaplain of the Catholic Farmers Union, and which appeared in the May 23, 1945 issue of Terre de chez-nous, the decreasing rate is found in no other country.
Legislators and economists of all nations agree that the first children born in any family are least in need of assistance since their parents are generally in a position to provide for them, in part, at least. In most cases, however, their means prove to be altogether inadequate from the fourth or the fifth child on.
I know that during the 1944 debates it was said that the expenses are heavier for the first children of a large family, and it is probably so, to a certain extent. That might be a sound argument if the allowances were sufficiently high to cover all the expenses incurred' in raising a child. However, that is not the purpose of the act, and nobody ever upheld the contrary. The allowances are not meant to cover all expenses, but to help needy parents. That is why, prior to January 1, 1947, people earning $3,000 did not receive any family allowances. At present, the small wage-earners benefit more from those allowances, and those earning in excess of $3,000 only draw a small measure of assistance from them.
It is therefore evident that they are meant to help those in the lower income brackets. If so, logically the allowance should be based on the parents' income and not on the expenses entailed in raising a child. In the light of that principle, which in my opinion is irrefutable, let us examine the operation of the act in its present form. The father of four children under sixteen receives the maximum amount of allowances.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: What is the hon. member reading? Are you reading your speech?


Paul Joseph James Martin: He is following his notes.


Benoît Michaud: I am following my notes.
No one can deny that the proper upbringing of children costs parents far more than the family allowance they are granted.
(Text):


William Henry Golding: Order. I believe the hon. member will recall that his honour the Speaker requested all hon. members to refrain from reading their speeches. I would call the hon. member's attention to that fact.


Benoît Michaud: I know the rule is here, but it is seldom enforced. I do not see why I should be singled out, among so many others.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It has been enforced since the budget debate.


Benoît Michaud: Oh, I beg your pardon.


William Henry Golding: When the point is brought to the attention of the Chairman, or to that of his honour the Speaker, attention must be called to the rule.


Benoît Michaud: I am doing it to save time. I could throw these notes aside and go ahead, just the same.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I would suggest that you do that. It looks far better than to see a man reading his speech. You would make a better speech if you did not read it,
(Translation):


Benoît Michaud: I was saying. Mr. Chairman, that from the fifth child on, there is a monthly decrease of $1, which represents $12 a year, in the family allowance grant.
A $2 reduction applies to the sixth and seventh children, bringing the allowance down to $3 a month or $36 a year.
From the eighth child on, the monthly allowance is reduced to $2, representing a $24 yearly payment.
As I said a while ago, family allowance grants cover but a trifling part of the cost entailed by the upbringing of a child. Let us assume, by making a reasonable and generous estimate, that raising a child costs at least $100 more than the family allowance grant. In any case, allowances do not even pay for the milk which is only part of a child's diet.
It is true that, for income tax purposes, the taxpayer may deduct from his taxable income the sum of $100 for each child under 16; such a concession, however, provides no more than a $20 yearly redaction. So that for the fourth child the budget and allowances mean an aid of $80 at the most, while for the eighth child, it is less than $44.

Supply-Health and Welfare
Hon. members who very kindly requested me not to read my speech will hardly be the gainers, for I am now bound to take up twice as much time and talk forty minutes instead of twenty. But they have wished it and, since you have so ruled, Mr. Chairman, I 'shall keep up at this rate.
This decreasing rate is clearly ridiculous. No wonder it is not found in any other country. On the other hand several countries have adopted an increasing rate or its equivalent. In some countries, allowances are granted only for a second or third child, on the assumption that parents are able to support a small family. Only when they have many mouths to feed do they require government assistance. In Belgium, for instance, in addition to birth allowances, 170 francs a month are granted in respect of a first or second child, 230 francs for a third, 300 francs for a fourth, and 430 francs for a fifth or more, up to age 18.
May I quote in this connection from an article on Quebec and family allowances which appeared in the magazine America for April 13, 1946, under the signature of M. E. L. Chicanot, a Montreal publicist. This is what he writes:
Assuming that family allowances were introduced for the purpose of relieving families of the increasing burden placed upon them by the coming of each new child, and indirectly for the purpose of promoting a higher birth-rate, a particularly odd feature of this new federal legislation is the decreasing rate of the allowance.
Canada seems to be the only country, among a number who have implemented family allowance plans, where this regressive rate is in effect It is in stark contrast with the family allowances recently reintroduced in Russia, where payments start with the third child only, but progressively increase, up to the eleventh, after which they remain stationary and at a level which nevertheless appears extremely high.
The plan recently introduced in Great Britain excludes the first child and provides a weekly allowance of about $ljl2 for each additional child. Australia, which, not so long ago, raised its payments from 80 cents to around 81.20, pays that sum for each child also, from the second on.
As Canada must, in the future, rely on natural increase rather than immigration to solve her man-power problems, it is not out of reason to believe that family allowances have been devised so as to raise the birth-rate among the Anglo-Saxons, without giving undue encouragement to Quebec.
The statement that the children after the fifth cost less to bring up than the others has very little real value in the light of a somewhat realistic analysis of the situation. Here again, I refer the hon. members who desire information on the matter to the
authoritative article I mentioned a while ago, written by Rev. Father LeBel.
Thank God, there are still, in Canada, people whose lofty sentiments and Christian spirit are carried to such a degree that they do not raise any obstacle to the natural transmission of life. God be praised that there are still among us numberless people who feel that a large family is a title of nobility of which they may be justly proud. These good people, instead of being ridiculed, as often happens in certain quarters, should be brought, with due honour, to the attention of their fellow-citizens. They should be given public credit and encouraged by tangible tokens of esteem, in the form of a more generous grant on the part of the state.	.
We all know that most of the greatest figures of history belonged to large families. Unfortunately, I do not have, at hand, a complete list of these eminent personalities, but only a few notes haphazardly jotted down. In the excellent periodical Relations, Father Louis Levesque, director of the Rimouski seminary, gives us, in an article reproduced from the Centre Saint-Germain, very probant figures in connection with large families. Father Levesque points out that of forty-two seminarists attending the Rimouski seminary last year, thirty belonged to families of at least ten children. Besides, a director of a religious community, who does not identify himself, states that out of 120 youths, 79 come from families of nine children.
Finally, the director of another religious institution, the Chicoutimi seminary, I believe, points out that:
The development of vocations to the priesthood or the religious life requires favourable surroundings w-here a Christian spirit prevails. Statistics seem to prove, moreover, that, in point of fact, vocations ripen only in large families...
In another paragraph, the director states that:
In the Chicoutimi diocese, most of those who answered the calling came from large families. ... In fact, might it not be said that large families are almost the exclusive source of vocations to the priesthood and to the religious life?
Around 1930, the Saint-Vincent-de-Paul Society, while visiting needy families in Hull in order to bring them relief, made a survey of the number of children found in the assisted families. According to these figures, there were 5 families of 9 children, 6 of 7 children, 53 of one child and 52 without children; this seems to indicate that large families are not always among the poorest. This also shows that, as a general rule, virtue is rather the prerogative of large families.
Supply-Health and Welfare

Finally, here is an article which appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press:
(Text):
Targe vs. Small Families
One of the reasons given by sociologists and economists for the smaller families of today is that many parents do not believe they can afford to rear the lusty broods which were the rule, rather than the exception, of Victorian times. Modern parents look narrowly at the costs of education and of launching their children successfully into the world.
Contrary evidence is given by an eminent savant, Professor Ernest Barker of Oxford and Cambridge.
I am not going to quote his lengthy statement hut the conclusion of the article in the Winnipeg Free Press is this:
Is it .the fact, after all, that the truly underprivileged are the children in small families?
(Translation):
Mr. Speaker, the house spends a great deal of time discussing immigration as a means of increasing the population of this vast country. Allow me to say that the soundest, surest and most economical way of peopling the country is to give free play to the vital forces of the nation.
We have spent millions in bringing from central Europe immigrants who, coming to Canada to amass a fortune, learned1 a useful trade among us and heaped up easily acquired capital only to return afterwards, as we saw recently, to their native country in order to further the expansion of a communist regime openly at war with our own. To my mind, we would have been wiser to assist our large families and thus prevent, to a great extent, infantile disease while checking the maternal death rate, sad factors by which in the past our people, more particularly poor families have been hard hit. In this manner, we would also have made the enjoyment of better health possible for those of our children who survived in spite of a system which was at times extremely cruel and barbarous. It is high time that we learned from the past and did everything in our power to help our citizens bear children and raise them. To my mind, it is extremely urgent to enact as soon as possible all the social legislation that was suggested at the 1945 dominion-provincial conference and has since been discussed by all our statesmen. I respectfully urge the government to introduce some legislation along those lines, even though it might not be possible to obtain the consent of all provinces. Social legislation of that kind could be of benefit to the less wealthy provinces which would see fit to take advantage of it, and some day, as happened in the case of old age pensions, the provinces will follow

suit and avail themselves of the dominion's assistance because they will be compelled to do so by public opinion within their own boundaries.
To most people the decreasing rate can only mean that it is not highly desirable that a Canadian family should have more than four children, that the government does not care to encourage overmuch the raising of large families, that the eighth child, from the standpoint of human assets, is less valuable than his elders since his allowance represents only 40 per cent of theirs.
I am conscious of the fact that the government has never intended to approach the problem in such a brutal manner. Nevertheless, such is the logical and inevitable conclusion to which the principle of a decreasing rate is leading.
The younger children of large families will not fail, as soon as they come to realize it, to resent keenly the discrimination shown against them, and in my humble opinion, it will ever rankle in their minds.
This decreasing rate has no doubt been adopted on the ground of economy. In order to ascertain what actual saving it makes possible, I have taken the trouble to make some calculations based on the figures placed on Hansard by Hon. Mr. Claxton in 1946. Now, according to those figures, the elimination of the decreasing rate would only cost this country an additional sum of six million dollars. The cost would be increased by a similar amount if a progressive rate corresponding to the present decreasing rate were put into effect. An amount of six million dollars represents but 2-3 per cent of the moneys appropriated for family allowances, and three-tenths of 1 per cent of the total expenditures of the government for 1947. In my opinion, the difference is so small that this useless provision should never have been embodied in the act, and for that reason, I wish, in concluding, respectfully to urge the government to look as soon as possible into the matter I have just raised, that is the replacement of the present decreasing rate by a corresponding progressive rate.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I wish to tender my most sincere congratulations to the hon. member on the speech he has just delivered, and I want to assure him that I shall consider seriously and with the greatest attention the remarks he has made tonight.
(Text):


Donald Methuen Fleming: There are several observations I wish to make on this item, but first I would ask the minister to be kind enough

Supply-Health and Welfare
to give me the expenditure on this item last year, and, first of all, the cost of administration.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The total expenditure last year for administration was $1,695,855.74, and the payments amounted to $245,140,531.59.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Will the minister state the expenditure on one item to be found on page 175 of the details for professional and special services, for which a total of $300,000 was appropriated last year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The expenditure was $21,902.53.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I think the answer which the minister has just given is about as significant a reflection on the way in which these estimates are made up as any that we have heard so far, and we have heard of a number of remarkable instances in the review of the estimates of this department.
This item for professional and special services, for which the government asked and received an appropriation of $300,000 last year, represented certain contemplated expenditures in connection with seeing that the family allowance was properly devoted to the purpose for which it was intended. It will be noted that the actual expenditure, out of a total of $300,000 appropriated, was $21,902.53. Let no one say that that represents an attempt at rigid economy on the part of the administration, because it does not represent that at all. What it does represent is hopelessly inaccurate budgeting, which applies to the whole basis on which the government has prepared its estimates.
The government was well warned on this subject during a discussion of this item last year. You will recall, Mr. Chairman, that the discussion of this item occupied two evenings of the time of this committee. What came to our attention was this, that in the previous fiscal year 1945-46, which was not a complete year, a total of $5,995 was expended for this purpose. When we came to consider the estimate of $300,000. submitted by the predecessor of the present Minister of Health and Welfare, we found that in the two months of the fiscal year 1946-47, which had passed at the time the estimate was under review, a total of $5,000 had been spent on this item. The minister was seeking to justify an estimate of no less than $295,000 for the remaining ten months of the fiscal year, and members from all parties sitting in opposition in this house rose and expressed themselves in quite strong terms about an item which had so little in fact to justify so large an amount asked for by the government. I remember undertaking to make a suggestion as to what actually was
justified on the strength of the information given to the house, and I will take the liberty of referring to the statement as recorded in Hansard, because the predecessor of the present minister took me to task for presuming to offer so low a calculation of what would be justified in this particular item. At pages 3009 and 3010 of Hansard of last year, I am reported as having said:
May I say with all possible emphasis that the case made out today in substantiation of an estimate of $300,000 is a ease which, on examination, will not justify the expenditure of more than $25,000 or $50,000.
The minister then followed and put on a great show of indignation at the idea of having so small an amount offered in lieu of the $300,000 which he was asking from the house, and he said, as reported at page 3010 of Hansard:
To set down a lesser sum than $300,000 would be misleading.
After twelve months of the fiscal year in operation, we find that a total of $21,902 was expended, so that even I was too high in my estimate of $25,000. I do not hold the present minister personally responsible for what, I think, was an imposition perpetrated by his predecessor on the committee of the whole in respect of this item, but I do say that the whole government shares the collective responsibility for perpetrating an imposition of that kind on the committee, and it leaves us all, I believe, feeling that we cannot approach the consideration of the estimates of the government with any degree of confidence at all when we find such a hopelessly inaccurate budgeting going on as is illustrated in this item.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Is the minister going to reply to the hon. gentleman before I speak?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have already replied to the hon. member. I am mot criticizing him for making t'he observations he has. He has made them several times during the estimates and I am not criticizing him for doing so. I can only say in reply that my predecessor, whose magnificient contribution to this department is one that is well recognized, was naturally placed in a difficult position, with regard to this major division of the department. With no experience on which to rely, where his estimates had to be necessarily based on conjecture, it is no faulty admission to say that the estimates in this particular instance were greatly exaggerated. It does not mean, however, that the money was wastefully spent, because to the extent of the extent of the excess there was no expenditure. It was an overestimate, and' was partly extenuated, how-
Supply-Health and Welfare

ever, by the fact that agreements with certain provinces in respect of projected investigational work were not completed.
The estimate this year has been reduced by $150,000, and I have no doubt that I shall be placed in the position either of having underestimated this time or of having overestimated to some extent. It simply is not possible to calculate to the mathematical degree of accuracy on. which the hon. gentleman seems to insist. I can only say that experience is a great teacher, and in this new department, which is doing an extremely important welfare job from day to day, we are learning how to improve our methods and, I trust, our calculations.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I follow up the minister's remarks with this observation. He has just told us that a total of $21,902 was spent last year and he is now asking for an appropriation of $150,000 for the current fiscal year. Of the amount budgeted last year, seven per cent was required in the light of the facts, in spite of the warnings which were given to the then minister when these estimates were before the house, and to which he would not-listen. The minister has to justify not the decrease he speaks of as $150,000; what he has to justify now is an increase from $21,900 to $150,000.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Would the hon. member
like me to do that now?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I invite the minister to
do it when I have finished. Last year, when his predecessor was before the committee he had agreements with three provinces, Nova Scotia, Manitoba and New Brunswick, under which agreements those provinces were undertaking to make investigations and submit reports with respect to the way in which family allowances were being used by the recipients; and as to the other provinces he indicated that he was not going to neglect the work of investigation there. It was not represented as a case of waiting until he made agreements with them before requiring the money to make investigations in them. The matter of entering into agreements with the provinces was simply, as he represented it to the house, a different means of conducting investigations instead of having them conducted directly by the employees of this department. The mere entering into additional agreements does not, of itself, justify increased appropriations. I think the committee will welcome some attempt on the part of the minister to justify an increase in the appropriation from $21,000 to $150,000, which is 750 per cent.


Paul Joseph James Martin: In Nova Scotia we have
an agreement. The current monthly rate is $1,050. The total estimate is $12,600. In New Brunswick likewise, where we have an agreement, the total estimate for four months of 1946-47 is $2,860 and the total is $10,000. In Prince Edward Island there is no agreement. The investigations have been done to date by the departmental staff. Negotiations are currently under way with Prince Edward Island, which until recently had no established child welfare authority or staff on a full-time basis trained to do the work we have in mind. The amount estimated is $2,000. In Quebec, where there is as yet no agreement, the investigation to date is being carried on by our own staff in the absence of an arrangement with that province. No arrangement is possible with the Quebec government at the moment, since it is thought that the government has no organized child welfare authority in the sense envisaged by the department's policy. It is expected in the course of the year we shall be able to make arrangements with certain selected private agencies. The total estimate is $15,000. In Ontario, where we now have an agreement, nothing was paid in 1946-47. The estimate for April, 1947, was $350, which was actually paid, and for May, 1947, $855. The agreement made in 1947, with partial accounts just coming in, would indicate that the monthly total will rise to $3,000, the total estimate in Ontario being $36,000. In Manitoba, where we have an agreement, made in 1946, the total cost for part of the year only is $690, with an estimated total of $3,600. In Saskatchewan [DOT] no agreement has as yet been made. The estimate there, through whatever agency we do carry on our investigational programme, governmental or otherwise, is $3,600. In Alberta, where there is as yet no agreement, for certain reasons, the total estimate is $3,600. In British Columbia, where we have an agreement, the expenditure for eight months in 1946-47 was $3,020. The estimate there for the year is $6,000.
Administration cases, fees paid to individuals or agencies for handling trust accounts of families when the allowance has to be taken from the parent and turned over to a trustee for administration; the yearly administration fee is $20 per case, totalling about 500, or an estimate of $10,000.
Then we are pressed because we are spending a great deal of money. I may say that in spending $260,000,000, to spend this amount on important investigational work is certainly the kind of expenditure which undoubtedly the committee will approve. To carry out the consistency of the investigational work, we have in mind surveys of cer-

Supply-Health and Welfare
tain families' spending patterns, surveys of consumer expenditure, surveys of budgets of families. Being of opinion that these surveys , are essential if we are to make sure of wise expenditures, we estimate that such a survey in Saskatchewan, where we have a plan which is actually being currently prosecuted, will cost $15,000; in Nova Scotia, $2,500; several others that we plan total $17,500, making an estimated total of $35,000. Legal fees for prosecutions which may have to take place, $10,000; miscellaneous services, $2,600; total $150,000. That is an estimate made of our work for the ensuing year. I hope it will be adequate. If it is an overestimate, it will be a kind of error that is perfectly natural. However I doubt very much if it will be proven to be an overestimate.


Percy Ellis Wright: I think we can be particularly pleased with this estimate, and with the fact that the minister has not deemed it necessary to use all the money which was asked for last year in this estimate. It indicates what many of us expected would take place with regard to these family allowances, namely, that they are being used -for the purpose for which they are being granted.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Hear, hear.


Percy Ellis Wright: A great many people in the country made a great deal about this at the time family allowances came in. Some of our hon. friends to my right were apparently disappointed that there is not more money required, for investigational work. That it has not been required is, I think, a good sign. On what basis are the agreements with the provinces? Are they on the basis of cases handled, or are the provinces paid on a flat rate?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Fee for service, $5, flat rate.


Percy Ellis Wright: Would the minister give the agreements with the various provinces?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes. I thank the hon. gentleman for his observations which I think are helpful and to the point. As yet there have been no prosecutions in connection with the misuse of funds or improper receipt of funds by parent applicants. That is something which this country has every reason to be proud of. and is something which we should not hesitate to note with great emphasis. The agreement with Nova Scotia is dated November 23, 1945, for one year, $5 per case, with a guarantee of $1,050 a month. This was extended for a further period of one year by P.C. 102. The agreement with Manitoba is dated February 20, 1946, running for one year, effective January 1, 1946. The agreement provides for a payment of $5 per case reported.
This has been extended indefinitely. The agreement with British Columbia is dated January 29,	1946, running for one year,
effective January 1 of that year; it is likewise at $5 per case reported, and the agreement is extended indefinitely. The agreement with Ontario is dated January 16 of this year, and is for an indefinite period commencing January
1.	and at $5 per case reported. In New Brunswick, in addition to the agreement with the province, agreements were made directly with welfare agencies. The agreement covers a period of one year from November 1, 1946.


Percy Ellis Wright: In cases where agreements are made with the provinces, does the dominion make the advance to the provinces, or do the provinces ask for the right to carry on the work?


Paul Joseph James Martin: We do both, really.


Percy Ellis Wright: At the present time are there any other provinces with which the department is negotiating for the carrying on of this work?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes. We are actually negotiating with Prince Edward Island.


Percy Ellis Wright: Has Saskatchewan not
made some application?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes. My hon. friend is correct in that. He will have noticed that I have been saying "stand" to his question on the order paper, and I made some reply the other day which, I was told by one of my good friends, meant nothing. But I could not do any more than that. I wanted to be fair to the objective which the hon. gentleman had in mind and yet meet the purpose properly. I can only say that the matter is now under careful review, and I hope to be able to make a statement in the not too distant future.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I wish to refer to the subject of agreements with the provinces respecting various investigational work on family allowances, and to ask the minister whether it would be possible to go farther along those lines and have the provinces do more of the work in the administration of family allowances. I asked a question to that effect on February 24, as reported on page 707 of Hansard of this year, as follows:
Was any attempt made to have the provinces administer family allowances, or make family allowances payments, through their existing provincial public and private welfare agencies?
The answer to that question was no, and the reasons were given in a subsequent paragraph of the answer to the effect that the Family Allowances Act itself provided for



Supply-Health and Weljare
the Department of National Health and Welfare to have sole responsibility for and charge over the administration of the act. I asked further questions as to the cost by provinces of administering family allowances. In a return dated February 27, the information was provided for the three years, 1945-46, 1946-47 and an estimate for the year 1947-48. The round figures for 1946-47 showed the total cost to the dominion government of administering family allowances to be 83,737,169; and it is estimated that in the next year that cost will rise to 83,881,415, or a total of nearly $4,000,000.
There are, I think, several considerations which were urged that, so far as possible, the administration of family allowances be decentralized by virtue of agreements made with the provinces. In the first place, of course, they already have existing social services, the provincial governments' social and welfare agencies. In addition, there are numerous private welfare and social agencies already in the field, who have accumulated a great deal of experience, both administrative and theoretical. It seems to me that these services could do the job, I will not say more efficiently, but certainly more efficiently at first, because they have the experience. Moreover, if they were used it would not be necessary for the dominion government to set up a complete staff of its own, so that duplication could be avoided. In the second place, if one reads the annual report of the department for the year ended March 31, 1946, reference will be found to the reason it was necessary to increase the staff. Regional directors had to be appointed for a number of the provinces. A further difficulty was found in getting accommodation. I should like to refer to the report itself, at page 77:
As at the end of the fiscal year, accommodation in Toronto and Halifax was however still unsuitable, and efforts were being continued by the Department of Public Works to obtain better space.
There you have proof that the question of accommodation is costing the dominion government some money as well as some effort; and with the shortage of accommodation that exists at the moment, on its face it would appear to be inefficient for the federal government to set up its own staff, requiring an expenditure for their salaries as well as for office accommodation and the paying of rent, or the construction of further buildings. This also complicates the position as far as the provincial government agencies are concerned, because they are also short of office space, for which the dominion is now in competition with them.

Finally, as the minister himself has mentioned, agreements have been completed with the provinces for carrying out the investigational work. That is referred to at page 79 , of the report. It appears that more provinces are being brought under the terms of these agreements; and if that can be done in this respect it seems to me that the possibility at least should be explored as to whether the provinces would be willing to carry out some of this work under the dominion department in so far as the administration and investigation of family allowance benefits are concerned. The fact is that some $4,000,000 is expended on administration costs alone; and while I am not saying that is too much, I am suggesting that it could be reduced by decentralizing the work in the provinces, and carrying it on in a more efficient manner. Would the minister care to comment on these suggestions?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have no hesitation in saying, at the outset, that parliament has correctly decided that the administration shall rest with the body which pays out the money.
I think that is a sound principle, and I know of no reason to suggest that we should change it. I believe it is wise to do what we are doing. I am sure my hon. friend will appreciate that the cost of family allowances has been remarkably low, when one considers that it represents about T6 per cent of the total expenditure. I think the committee has every reason to be pleased with the administration of family allowances by this government.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Why?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Because of the very low cost. The figure 1-6 represents the cost, not only to this department, but to public works and finance as well. One-quarter of the cost is taken up by postage.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Would the minister give
the figures?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Our own actual cost in the department is 0-8 per cent, and I feel that these figures should commend themselves to hon. gentlemen.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In the course of my remarks I said I was not trying to suggest that the department was being inefficient or extravagant in its administration. My suggestion was that a change in the set-up might lower the cost; and the fact that it is already low does not alter the fact that it is costing nearly $4,000,000. If we could save only $2,000,000 of that I should think it would be well worth while. Admittedly, parliament passed the act and gave the

Supply-Health and Welfare
sole responsibility to the federal government; but on a reading of the debate at that time it is not easy to discover that any great consideration was given to the question I am now bringing forward. In this connection, as well as others, it seems to me that the administration as well as the investigational work should be left to the agency closest to the people concerned, which is certainly the municipal and provincial governments. I do not think it is any answer to say we are doing it for only $4,000,000 now, or S3,800,000. The committee should be shown whether it would be less expensive to do it in any other way. If it would be less expensive, then I think it should be done in that other way.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I had some critical remarks to make of the Department of National Health and Welfare, but at this stage I might tell the minister this legislation is very popular with the people in all parts of Canada, certainly with those in my part of the country. Since the act was passed, I have had only two letters in connection with family allowance problems. In one case the parents had failed to register the births of their children, and I shall refer to the second case in just a moment. Only today I had personal proof of the efficiency of this department. It is not yet a month since our older daughter became sixteen; yet when the cheque arrived at home today it was S8 less than formerly. I was hoping that there might have been a mistake in attending to these matters, Sut when they are adjusted so quickly, and when hon. members have had so few complaints, I gather that this is an efficiently operated branch.


Arthur Leroy Smith: You would not have taken the money, anyway.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It would work just as quickly the other way if you should have another child.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I have a letter from the Canadian Legion at ICelvington, Saskatchewan, concerning a case I should like to bring to the attention of the minister. The secretary of the branch writes as follows:
The above-named was married in England during the year 1043 and his wife arrived in Canada about a year ago. At the time of the marriage Mrs. - had two sons ages five and eleven years and the sons remained in the family and came over to Canada last year. Application was made for family allowance on behalf of these children but same was refused apparently under section 2 of the Family Allowance Act which requires three years residence in Canada before being registered.
I find that section 2 makes provision for children who are born while the father or 83166-285J
mother was a member of the naval, military or air forces of Canada, or within twelve months after the father or mother ceased to be a member of the forces. It is obvious that when the act was passed we did not have in mind cases such as these. The secretary of the legion goes on to say:
The position is that these children had received dependants' allowances from the Canadian government during residence in England after the marriage of the veteran and it was no fault of theirs that they were not in Canada immediately after marriage and in this manner establish the residence to qualify. It appears to me that the children would be discriminated against as compared with Canadian children if they do not receive the allowance and it is hard to believe that stepchildren acquired by a soldier by marriage overseas should not be considered Canadian children, especially when they were unable to come to this country until after the war was over.
I wrote the minister in connection with this case about a month and a half ago, but he has not had an opportunity to reply. I do not imagine there are many in this category, but it seemed to me that the Canadian Legion made a reasonable request when they asked that children in this category should be eligible for the benefits of family allowances. Could the minister make a statement?


Arthur Leroy Smith: I have had similar letters.


Paul Joseph James Martin: There are few cases in this category; I think it is a diminishing problem. I understand that the children to whom the hon. gentleman refers were born in England of English parents; is that right?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The mother was married before, and the children are now aged five and eleven years. This soldier was married in England in 1943. If the children had been permitted to come to Canada they would have had three years residence and would now qualify. However, they have been here for only about a year.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I cannot add anything to what I have said.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I understand that other hon. members have heard of similar circumstances. Can the minister indicate whether it will be possible to make any change in that respect?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I can only say the act does not permit it.


Mr. SHAW:: I should like to add my voice to what has been said by the hon. member for Mackenzie. I have discovered a number of cases where members of the Royal Air Force married Canadian girls. They were
Supply-Health and Welfare

determined from the start to establish permanent residence here. In a number of cases the wives did proceed to England to join their husbands during the remainder of their periods of service. While they were resident in England, children were born. Immediately following discharge from service, those families returned to Canada and established residence here. Those children are, of course, not eligible for family allowance, and will not be for some time. I feel that so far as servicemen are concerned, and more particularly because there cannot be very many of these cases, special provision should be made for them. After all, they are now residents of Canada, and will become citizens. We are just as vitally concerned about their welfare as about that of those who were born here. I would urge that favourable consideration be given to this type of case.
I understood the hon. member for Kamloops to advocate that the administration of family allowances be handed over to certain nongovernmental agencies.


Edmund Davie Fulton: No, I did not.


Frederick Davis Shaw: Then I misunderstood the hon. member. That is the last thing I should like to see happen, because I can visualize scores of problems cropping up if that were done. If I misunderstood the hon. member I shall not pursue the matter farther.


Stanley Howard Knowles: A short time ago the minister made reference to surveys of family expenditures, family budgets and that sort of thing. From the way he put it, I was not sure whether these were surveys to be made entirely in the future, or whether in part-


Paul Joseph James Martin: Those in Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia are current.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am glad to hear that these surveys are being made. It seems to me that the information obtained can be most useful, both from the point of view of looking objectively at the family allowances picture and also with a view to further development in the field of social security. Are any reports on these surveys available, and, if not, when they are completed will they be made available? How and where can we get them?


Paul Joseph James Martin: They are n-ot available now, but I should hope that by August they will be.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: In fairness to the
department, I should say a word to compliment the department on its work in connection with the administration of family

allowances. I cannot agree with what was said by the hon. member for Kamloops. I believe the cost of the administration of family allowances is remarkably low, much lower indeed than many people anticipated when the bill was passed.
In my experience I have never had a single complaint from my constituents regarding the administration of family allowances. I have travelled around the country and have asked the mothers and fathers of families for their opinions with respect to family allowances, and concerning the benefits they receive; because on some occasions one hears about moneys being expended on things which would not be in the interests of the children. I am sure, from my personal observations, that by far the greater part of the money is of great value to the people receiving it, and that the children benefit thereby.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister referred to the cost of administration, and included the costs accruing through other interested departments, namely those of public works and finance. Will he give the figures for the three departments, so that we can compare them with those of the previous year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I made a return on that point some time ago. Did the hon. member not see it?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Those for the Department of Public WorlS for 1946-47 were approximately $151,009. In the Department of Finance the expenditures concerned the office of the comptroller of the treasury, and amounted to $1,929,535.45. Then, I have given the figures for this department.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Last year the minister was good enough at my request to place on Hansard three tables containing some exceedingly interesting and valuable information on the subject.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have them here, and I shall place them on the record.
(See following pages for tables)


Stanley Howard Knowles: The details as set out at page 175 of the estimates list the salaries of four regional directors of family allowances at $4,200, $3,810, $3,690 and $2,790.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The amounts are paid
according to the size of the office and the job to be done.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Even so, it seems to me that, in view of the responsibilities devolving upon a regional director in any area, a salary of $2,790 is scarcely adequate.

Supply-Health and Welfare


Paul Joseph James Martin: There are only about 12,000 accounts in that area.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What is the district?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Prince Edward Island.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Are the parents who
receive family allowances payments obliged to spend the money on the children?


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is the intention of the act.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I know of several instances, one of which concerns a merchant who has
three children. His income is sufficient without the family allowances payments, so that instead of using the money now for the children, he puts it in the bank. I asked him why he did that, and he told me that when they reach the age of sixteen years each will have a little nest-egg for purposes of education. Apparently the parents are not obliged to spend the money at once. Is there any objection to their saving it in that way?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Department of National Health and Welfare


[Stage Direction]
Province	Number of families	Number of children	Average allowance per child	Average allowance per family	Total amountPrince Edward Island	12,386 84,782 65,858 452,178 533,943 98,272 113,685 116,182 128,995 2,805	31,390 197,705 169,552 1,241,185 1,063,655 204,665 257,145 250,392 245,725 6,235	$ cts. 5 94 5 96 5 87 5	90 6	00 6 01 6 02 0 01 5 92 5 88	$ cts. 15 05 13 90 15	13 16	20 11	96 12	52 13	61 12	95 11 27 13	08	$ 186,361 1,178,618 996,174Nova Scotia	New Brunswick	Quebec	Ontario	Manitoba	Saskatchewan	1,547,408Alberta	British Columbia	1,454,142 36,696Northwest Territories and Yukon	Total	1,609,086	3,667,649	5 95	13 57	
Note: N. W. T. and Y. adjustments amounting to $21,342 not included above.
FAMILY ALLOWANCES PAYMENTS Fiscal Year 1947-48
Province	April	May	Total 1947-48	Total 1946-47	Total 1945-46	Cumulative total to date$	$	$	$	$	$Prince Edward Island	185,801	186,361	372,162	2,194,372	1,620,561	4,187,095Nova Scotia	1,171,702	1,178,618	2,350,320	13,416,762	9,547,995	25,315,077New Brunswick	995,236	996,174	1,991,410	11,402,915	8,123,483	21,517,808Quebec	7,212,032	7,324,663	14,536,695	82,614,860	57,978,816	155,130,371Ontario	6,359,396	6,385,548	12,744,944	70,628,176	49,421,887	132,795,007Manitoba	1,227,147	1,230,638	2,457,785	14,052,301	9,932,787	26,442,873Saskatchewan	1,541,863	1,547,468	3,089,331	18,129,468	13,210,097	34,428,986Alberta	1,497,925	1,504,142	3,002,067	17,186,896	12,300,428	32,489,391British Columbia	1,441,184	1,454,142	2,895,326	15,743,010	10,719,729	29,358,065Northwest Territories and	Yukon	37,512	58,038	95,550	332,924	169,675	598,149Totals	21,669,798	21,865,792	43,535,590	245,701,684	173,025,458	462,262,732

[Stage Direction]
Fiscal Year 1946-47
Province	April	May	June	July	August	Septem- ber	October	Novem- ber	Decem- ber	January	February	March	Total 1946-47Prince Edward Island	181,187	ISO,672	181,149	181,793	181,645	182,975	184,410	184,168	184,276	180,495	186,234	185,368	2,194,372Novs Scotia	1,087,512	1,087,522	1,091,034	1,096,774	1,100,561	1,105,552	1,106,145	1,119,741	1,131,079	1,150,022	1,169,384	1,171,436	13,416,762New Brunswick	923,652	925,856	930,193	932,094	940,328	943,484	942,188	952,595	958,711	974,579	988,515	990,720	11,402,915Quebec	6,765,204	6,764,992	6,706,662	6,730,388	6,783,822	6,828,111	6,837,031	6,838,185	6,918,180	7,077,877	7,169,137	7,195,361	82,614,860Ontario	5,639,651	5,681,433	5,670,179	5,717,747	5,741,291	5,767,673	5,807,050	5,859,271	5,941,309	6,184,126	6,274,704	6,343,706	70,628,176Manitoba	1,139,630	1,142,923	1,144,715	1,148,522	1,157,731	1,147,457	1,151,108	1,173,285	1,183,520	1,213,011	1,217,075	1,233,324	14,052,301Saskatchewan	1,491,291	1,492,853	1,494,690	1,504,715	1,506,895	1,504,113	1,500,764	1,505,900	1,511,376	1,528,045	1,540,233	1,548,593	18,129,468Alberta	1,392,683	1,392,942	1,391,911	1,406,640	1,420,553	1,395,992	1,420,596	1,439,937	1,456,608	1,481,346	1,492,631	1,495,057	17,186,896British Columbia	1,237,544	1,243,172	1,247,526	1,263,799	1,273,667	1,285,142	1,291,142	1,316,763	1,336,878	1,395,965	1,419,723	1,431,689	15,743,010Northwest Territories and Yukon	35,613	22,249	23,017	23,340	23,658	23,729	25,950	26,560	29,217	29,929	33,968	35,694	332,924Totals	19,893,967	19,934,614	19,881,076	20,005,812	20,130,151	20,184,228	20,266,384	20,416,405	20,651,154	21,215,305	21,491,640	21,630,948	245,701,684
Note: 1. Figures shown are gross and do not include payments subsequently cancelled or refunds received in connection with overpayments.
2. The difference in totals for 1946 in this statement as compared to previous statements is due to retroactive adjustments during 1940-47.
[Stage Direction]


§
o
Supply-Health and Welfare
FAMILY ALLOWANCES PAYMENTS July, 1945 to March 31, 1947, inclusive
* Province	July 1945	August 1945	September 1945	October 1945	November 1945	December 1945	January 1946	February 1946	March 1946	Total 1945-46$	$	s	$	$	*	*	$	$	$Prince Edward Island	177,058	179,762	180,247	180,724	180,308	181,099	179,550	180,806	181,007	1,620,561Nova Scotia	921,333	1,021,837	1,107,919	1,065,667	1,068,959	1,111,203	1,080,260	1,082,918	1,087,899	9,547,995New Brunswick	849,136	874,203	897,267	914,078	909,118	916,995	919,077	920,454	923,155	8,123,483Quebec	5,948,309	5,782,627	6,589,206	6,160,887	6,724,978	6,955,275	6,660,314	6,523,020	6,634,200	57,978,816Ontario	4,836,416	5,415,149	5,358,240	5,584,078	5,652,496	5,609,906	5,642,421	5,650,451	5,672,760	49,421,917Manitoba	1,029,982	1,080,122	1,126,609	1,103,908	1,110,192	1,120,667	1,115,086	1,126,125	1,120,206	9,932,897Saskatchewan	1,397,838	1,450,335	1,458,178	1,470,796	1,477,010	1,478,397	1,4S2,050	1,506,504	1,488,989	13,210,097Alberta	1,298,084	1,328,773	1,390,950	1,367,858	1,372,094	1,382,068	1,384,339	1,394,192	1,391,070	12,309,428British Columbia	1,111,778	1,152,554	1,176,939	1,187,474	1,201,657	1,212,207	1,215,289	1,230,527	1,231,304	10,719,729North West Territories and Yukon.	9,137	21,958	15,502	25,787	30,795	23,220	20,762	22,683	169,844Totals	17,569,934	18,294,499	19,307,513	19,050,972	19,722,599	19,998,612	19,701,606	19,635,759	19,753,273	173,034,767
Note.-Figures shown are gross and do not include payments subsequently cancelled or refunds subsequently received in connection with overpayments.
Supply-Health and Welfare
Supply-Health and Welfare
[Stage Direction]
Welfare branch-
Old age pensions (including pensions to the blind) [DOT]-
230.	Administration, $54,006.
Donald Methuen Fleming: What are the figures with respect to expenditures?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The estimate for 1946-47 was $53,695. The expenditures were $50,563.97, and the unliquidated commitments, $461.70.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What are the payments-


Stanley Howard Knowles: I thought I had the floor.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Will the minister answer, first, as to the actual amount expended last year in connection with the payment of the dominion's share of pensions?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I should like to ask, in connection with the administration of old age pensions, whether it can be arranged during the discussion of the bill before the house to have a discussion with respect to the new regulations.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, on the bill.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Then it would not be necessary to have that discussion now.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It can be done on the bill.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister is sure of that?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, under section 19 of the bill.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What are the figures?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Estimates 1946-47, payment, $34,53S,200; expenditures, $35,927,510.16, plus the demobilization figure which will come later.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: On previous occasions it
has been intimated in the house that there is another class of people who should be considered, and I refer to those who are helpless. I have a letter from a young man in my constituency who asks if anything will be done for young people in his condition. He is paralysed; he is absolutely helpless and lives on a farm with his brother who has a large family. There is nothing that he can do; he is of no help to anyone and is actually a burden on his own people. This parliament should take into consideration people in that condition.
The minister will probably say that it is the responsibility of the provincial governments, but we know that provincial governments are not looking after these people who are helpless and cannot look after themselves. We know the municipalities are not looking

after them. Something should be done for these people. This young man wrote in January and said that in the previous March he noticed in a Winnipeg paper where the present Minister of National Defence, (Mr. Claxton) had said a study of this matter was being made. Is a study being made of the means whereby the many people in this country who are absolutely helpless can be given the protection of the country just the same as the helpless blind and the helpless old people?


Paul Joseph James Martin: This is a matter very
close to my heart. The hon. gentleman will recall that one of the dominion government's proposals had to do with crippled children and handicapped persons. In the Department of Veterans Affairs some considerable work so far as veterans is concerned has been done under a gentleman who is himself handicapped, a gallant soldier, Major Dunlop. I am very happy to make reference to Major Dunlop whom I have known since I was a young lad. Then in the Department of Labour work in connection with the handicapped is being prosecuted with serious attention by Mr. Hudson under the present Minister of Labour.
With regard to the study referred to by my hon. friend, I have established in my department a sort of seminar to review this problem, and we have been reviewing it now for several months in order to get a proper perspective of the matter in all its implications and it has wide implications. Major Dunlop, Mr. Hudson and others from the national welfare council have been sitting in and giving us the benefit of their views on this matter.
My hon. friend will understand that a system of disability benefits depends in many ways upon and is attached to pensions for the aged, unemployment insurance and particularly health insurance. All those social schemes fit into the pattern. The problem is one which deserves not only serious but continuous study and it is receiving that.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: This young man is not
asking for any hand-out. He says if he were taught to fix radios or watches he could make his own living and be independent. I imagine the study the minister is making is along those lines?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes. It is perfectly
amazing what can be done. As Minister of National Health and Welfare, I should like to say a word to industry. I know of one plant where 400 handicapped individuals are given work, some being blind and others with varying disabilities. This was done as

Supply-Health and Welfare
a result of persuasion by the provincial authorities, Mr. Hudson and Major Dunlop. The suggestion was made that they take these people on. I have seen them working doing jobs on machines which normally one would think were too dangerous for handicapped persons to operate. This industry reports tremendous efficiency on the part of the individual.
I have no hesitation in taking up one or two minutes of the time of the committee so that my words may reach out elsewhere. I urge employers to recognize that they have here an avenue, of which they perhaps are not fully cognizant, by which they can render a great public service. I thank the hon. gentleman for bringing the matter to my attention.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: We shall have to have something more practical.


Angus MacInnis: The hon. member for Royal has just said that we shall have to have something more practical than what the minister has suggested, and with that I agree. I do nob think it is sufficient to say that this matter is receiving study and that it will continue to receive study. That is the chief trouble; it will continue to receive study and nothing will be done. What is required is some action that will meet the desperate needs of the situation. That action will require some sort of national social security programme which will take care of every individual who is deprived of the ability to take care of himself.
Every hon. member knows of hundreds of cases of people in need through no fault of their own. There are many women who stay at home to take care of an aged mother or some other member of the family and who later find themselves deprived of the ability to earn a living. When I was home at Easter I was talking to a woman who had taken care of her father who was in receipt of a pension. The father died; the pension stopped, and this woman who does not know how to do anything else is just as helpless as a person of sixty-five or seventy years. Many times the situation is complicated by ill health. I suggest that we should agitate for a social security programme to take care of all people deprived of the ability of earning income for themselves. We cannot deal with this matter piecemeal by asking employers to take these people on their payrolls.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I do not suggest that.


Angus MacInnis: Employers will take them on at the present time because of a scarcity of other labour, but in a few years there may not be such a scarcity and employers, no matter how charitable they may be. know they cannot run their businesses on charity.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It should not be considered a charity.


Angus MacInnis: I know, but we must consider human nature. I think I know how employers will act, no matter how they feel. It is not a matter of choice with them. Every person who can do any kind of work should be given an opportunity to work, because congenial work will make a life which has many disadvantages at least somewhat better. I suggest to hon. members that, regardless of our political affiliations, we should put our minds to working out a social security programme which will take care of every person in Canada who is not able to take care of himself.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I would point out that we are on old age pensions.


William Ross Macdonald: It occurs to me that the debate is going a little beyond the item.


Angus MacInnis: I thought myself I was out of order.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Will there be a supplementary appropriation?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No. That is a statutory item.


Donald Methuen Fleming: In consequence of the adoption of the bill and the increase in pension that goes with it, will there be an increase in the cost of administration?


Paul Joseph James Martin: There may be. We shall deal with that when we come to the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Welfare branch-
National physical fitness-administration-
2SI. Assistance to provinces, $47,866.
Donald Methuen Fleming: What was the expenditure?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The estimated expenditure for 1946-47 was S50.000, and the actual expenditure. 827,489.24; unliquidated commitments, $5,892.77.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What is the explanation of the increase in the cost of administration? The figures just given by the minister indicate that 833,000 was required last year, and it is now proposed to increase that to something like $48,000. It is worth observing that there is no contribution by way of assistance to the provinces contemplated this year. What occasions so substantial an increase, about fifty per cent, in the cost of administration?


Paul Joseph James Martin: There is enough money in the fund to do the very thing my hon. friend has in mind. It is a fund provided by a statute, the Physical Fitness Act.

Supply-Health and Welfare


Donald Methuen Fleming: That does not explain why the cost of administration is going up fifty per cent.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is not going up; it is going down.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister has just given us figures indicating that the cost of administration last year was $33,000, and this year he is asking $48,000, or about fifty per cent more. What is the justification for the increase?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The director was away for six months and certain projects were not undertaken.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Is there a director now?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: I read in the paper a week ago that the former director is now employed in the United States.


Paul Joseph James Martin: By the united nations.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Have we no director now?


Paul Joseph James Martin: At the moment, no. We have an assistant director and we are looking for a director. I hope that those responsible for his selection will pick one for the position with the highest qualifications. There is no sense in appointing somebody just for the sake of appointing.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: What coordination is there with the provinces?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The coordinating body is in the national council of physical fitness, on which there is a representative from each province. They meet in Ottawa. Their members are appointed by the governor in council for a period of one, two or three years and are eligible for reappointment at the expiration of their term. The}' constitute the coordinating agency.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: When did they last meet, and how often do they meet?


Paul Joseph James Martin: They met in February last. They meet twice a year.
* Mr. FLEMING: I am not satisfied with the explanation given by the minister for the increase. In the previous fiscal year the expenditures for this council were actually less than they were last year, even with the director off for part of the year. The expenditures in the fiscal year 1945-46 were $31,524.45, and the expenditures were approximately the same last year. Why should there be an increase of fifty per cent now?


Paul Joseph James Martin: We have added the position of assistant director. If my hon. friend

wants the details I can give them. The increase in salaries amounts to $5,134. The amount of $18,809 covers the salaries of the national director, the assistant director, a technical assistant to the director, and stenographic staff. The increase is due to the creation of a new position of assistant director as well as the consolidation of cost of living bonus with salaries, and statutory increases. My hon. friend will note that there is a decrease in other pay-list items; a decrease in educational and informational publicity, in telephones, telegrams and postage and in professional and special services. There is no change in the equipment item. There is an increase of $2,000 for materials and supply. This division requires reference to resource material for routine work. None has been required to date, but it is expected that $1,500 will be spent for that purpose. There is no change in the item for transportation and travelling expenses.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Is it necessary to have an assistant director as well as a director?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The assistant director is a woman. It is a good thing we have an assistant director because we have no director.


Donald Methuen Fleming: If the assistant director is managing efficiently without a director, do you need a director?


Paul Joseph James Martin: She is a woman in charge of women's work, but at the present time she is doing the director's work as well. My hon. friend should be the first to commend us for this.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I would commend the minister any time he puts a woman in a place where she can do both a woman's work and a man's work efficiently. Apparently this good lady is able to look after both the women's side and the men's side without the necessity of a director being appointed. Why have two people if this good lady can do it all? While the minister is pondering his reply-


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am not pondering. I have made my reply.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I ask about the distribution of grants during the past fiscal year? Are we down now to five provinces that are receiving grants? I understand that last year only five provinces shared:	Prince
Edward Island, Nova Scotia, Manitoba, Alberta and British Columbia.	Why did
Saskatchewan not share last year? Are any of the other provinces giving any indication of being interested in joining the scheme?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Saskatchewan did share to the extent of $17,545.75.

Supply-Health and Weljare


Donald Methuen Fleming: That does not answer the question. I asked about the other provinces.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will give that right away. It is not necessary for the hon. gentleman to make a speech every time.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Just answer the question.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am trying to get a little air, but the hon. gentleman will not give me a chance. The amounts are these: Prince Edward Island, $2,635.49; Nova Scotia, S12,-486.48. New Brunswick does not participate.


Stanley Howard Knowles: No sense.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I would not say New Brunswick has no sense, nor will I say that the hon. gentleman has no sense.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Same to you.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I did not say you had no sense. New Brunswick is a great province. Quebec does not participate. Ontario, for reasons best known to itself, has not seen fit to participate. They have a programme of their own.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is a foreign country.


Paul Joseph James Martin: On estimates one does not want to make a political observation, and I refrain from saying anything in that regard. In the case of Manitoba the amount is $7,784.92; in Alberta it is $15,515.61; and in British Columbia it is $32,031.50.


Howard Charles Green: Has any step been taken to help the civilian handicapped, who have made representations?


Paul Joseph James Martin: We have just dealt with that. We are on another item.


Howard Charles Green: Was there a discussion with regard to them?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes. The hon. member can speak to me later about it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Welfare branch-
232. Assistance to schools of social work, $50,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Would the minister give details regarding this reduction. It sounds as though assistance to schools of social work is a matter of growing importance, and I hope the reduction from $100,000 to $50,000 is not because of the kind of criticism this department got last year from a certain section.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I do not disagree with what the hon. gentleman is saying now. I cannot say what the situation will be when the sup-plementaries come in, and he can draw whatever conclusion he likes as to my desires in 83166-286J
that matter, but I feel that this is a work we must certainly continue to support and I hope we shall be able to do so beyond this figure. When the supplementaries come in we shall see whether or not I have been successful in the presentation of my views.


Stanley Howard Knowles: To what schools will this money go?


Donald Methuen Fleming: And the amounts.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The amounts paid last year were as follows: to the maritime school of social work, $3,600; school of social service work, Laval university, $5,800; school of social service work, university of Montreal, $7,500; school of social service work, McGill university, $8,700; school of social service work, university of Toronto. $10,800; school of social service work, university of Manitoba, $5,000; school of social service work, British Columbia, $8,600. These represent scholarships. For administration of the various schools I have mentioned-I will not name them again-the amounts are $3,500; $5,200; $6,700; $7,800; $9,600; $4,600; $7,700.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is the reduction due to decreases in these various grants or to the elimination of some schools that received grants last year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Decreases.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Are they more or less the same across the board?


Paul Joseph James Martin: They are proportionate.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What do these grants
amount to in the aggregate?


Paul Joseph James Martin: $50,000 and $45,000 last
year?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Before we pass from this item, I wish to direct a remark at the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre and to try to put him right on a perfectly silly observation he made a moment ago.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Could you do it on somebody else's item?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No. I will turn my attention now from the minister and devote some of it to t'he hon. gentleman to my left. He made a perfectly silly remark when he suggested that we in the official opposition did not approve this particular item last year. As a matter of fact we did. We asked the minister of that day to give an accounting of how he proposed to use the $100,000 for which he was asking. We are interested now to get the details. I do not think that when it comes to sound measures that will contribute to the well-being of the people of this
Supply-Health and Welfare

country, through social work, training of social workers, or in any other way, we have anything to learn from our socialist friends to. the left who make such silly remarks.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I express my thanks to the hon. gentleman for the lecture.


Donald Methuen Fleming: He is welcome to it. He can have more any time.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Before the item carries, may I say that the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre was patting his own back as having opposed it. We did not.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous grants-
236. Canadian National Institute for the Blind, $18,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: This vote is one of the very best that this house passes, and the work that results from it has a considerable effect on the nation. A few moments ago when the question of handicapped people was under consideration it came to my mind that the Canadian National Institute for the Blind is doing a splendid job in training the blind. I have visited their place several times. I went with their employment man to factories in Toronto in which the blind have been placed. Trained by the institute in their own little shops around their place, they are afterwards placed in factories where they are producing wonderful results. They are giving an example of active cooperation in the training of the handicapped, for there is no greater handicap than blindness. I am heartily in favour of the vote and only wish it were more.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous grants-
21,1. Victorian Order of Nurses, $13,100.
Frank Exton Lennard: When this item was up last session and the session before, when the estimates of the previous minister were under consideration, I had something to say about the Victorian Order of Nurses, and I urged the then minister to consider the question of increasing the amount for the national office of this worthy organization. The Victorian Order provides a service for all, regardless of race, creed or financial status, and meets the needs of those patients who cannot afford a nursing service. There are 103 branches scattered across the country, and the order is supported by fees from patients, fees from insurance companies for service to policy holders, and municipality and township grants, and from additional moneymaking efforts on the part of local boards. The national office
[Mr Fleming.]
is also supported by government grants, interest on endowment funds and subscriptions.
The service has so expanded over the last few years that the national office finds itself in an embarrassing' position. According to the last financial statement, the following deficits were recorded:	in 1944, a deficit of
$12,772.12; in 1945, a deficit of $42,575.38; and in 1946, a deficit of $46,576.27. This is not a very comforting position. These deficits have had to be covered by expenditure of capital, thus depleting one of the main sources of operating revenue.
There are some 450 nurses, and of the 103 branches, twenty-nine have been organized during the last ten years since this grant was given in 1934. The number of patients served during 1945 was 100,118; the number of visits made during the'same year was 756,984. Of these, fifty per cent were free and eighteen per cent partly paid. The federal grant of 813,100 per annum was first set up in 1934. But since that grant was set up, the services have increased by same thirty-eight or thirty-nine per cent, in the last ten years. Revenues have been consistently reduced by declining interest rates and more especially by depletion of capital funds to cover operating deficits. Expenses have increased sharply with expansion of service, and it has been necessary, since 1934, to offer scholarships and1 uniform allowances totalling in excess of $70,000 to attempt to maintain and build up a force of skilled public health nurses to ensure an efficient and adequate nursing service throughout Canada.
I am not too familiar with the background of this grant of $13,100 set up in the estimates, but if it was considered in 1934 to be a fair grant, then certainly a greater amount should be granted today, having regard to the increased services rendered and the increased costs of operation. The national office has increased its activities through the expansion of the order to such an extent that, as I have intimated, it is going behind every year. Through the necessity of expanding the services, increased expenditures have been necessary to get the properly trained nurses. This amount should be greatly increased.
Before taking my seat, I should like to pay tribute to a great Canadian woman in the person of Miss Elizabeth Smellie, C.B.E., who for many years served as chief superintendent of the Victorian Order of Nurses, and was wartime leader of the Canadian army nursing services. It is doubtful if any Canadian woman, contemporary or otherwise, has contributed more to her country and whose name and record are of more national renown.

Sup-ply-Health and Welfare
Has the minister the information as to just how this amount was set up in 1934 or whenever it was granted?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I shall be glad to give that information. Put, first, I should like to say a few words in addition to what has been said by the hon. gentleman about Miss Smellie. A month ago, at the Prime Minister's request, I was asked to attend a function in her honour, and on behalf of the government and the people of Canada to pay a tribute to Miss Smellie who had completed twenty-five years of great work in that organization. As Minister of National Health and Welfare, it is only proper that I should pay tribute to the untiring efforts of a great Canadian woman, who has achieved so much.
The grant to this organization in the period 1914-15 to 1922-23 was S5,000; from 1923-24 to 1931-32 the grant was $10,000. In the period 1923 to 1934 the grant was reduced to $9,000; and in 1935, a significant date, it was increased to $13,100.


Frank Exton Lennard: On what basis was that increase made? Why was it set at that figure?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I was not in office then. My hon. friends were. I do not really want to put it in that way. We were not in office at that time, and I could hardly be held accountable for the policy of another government, representing another political party. But I suppose it was because those were difficult days when reductions in expenditure were the order of the day. I suppose it was part of the then government's policy to curtail. I can offer no other reason.


Frank Exton Lennard: The amount was set in 1935. The minister's administration set that $13,100, and my question is this: why was it set at that figure at that time?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I suppose it was because that was conceived to be the extent to which the administration was prepared to go with regard to assistance. It represented a considerable increase, and I suppose every $100 would count.


Frank Exton Lennard: Was it because of the size of the order or the amount of money they required each year; that is, the amount of their budget for the year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No. It was the figure set.


Frank Exton Lennard: In other words, the minister has not that information.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I cannot say why it was $13,100, but I suppose the minister of the day
who made representations to his colleagues determined, in the light of all other grants, that it was a fair amount to give.


Frank Exton Lennard: Then, owing to the
increased services which are being rendered today, I would urge that the minister take into serious consideration helping this worthy order in proportion to the increase in their activities. I do not ask that he do it now, but, say in the next year.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I shall be glad to give serious consideration to that.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: How is this $13,100 apportioned or expended?


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is given to the national office.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: It is just given direct to the national office?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous grants-
243. Canadian Red Cross Society, MO,000.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Before we leave this
group, I take it that the amounts appropriated last year were all paid over to these organizations exactly as appropriated, the total being $105,650. Is that correct?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Will the minister give the committee the expenditures in the welfare branch corresponding to the total of $286,890,780 in the estimates?


Paul Joseph James Martin: For what?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Will the minister give the actual expenditure corresponding to that total in the estimates of last year? Will he give the total for the welfare side of the department?


Paul Joseph James Martin: We have given that.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister did not give the total.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, we did.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am sorry, but the minister did not give the total of expenditures on the welfare side of the department corresponding to the estimate of $286,890,780.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May we go on to the next item, and I will give you that later?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is the last item.


Paul Joseph James Martin: We will give it to you now in that case.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Stipply-Health and Welfare
[Stage Direction]
Demobilization and reconversion-
5S3. Old age pensions and pensions to the blind, $10,450,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: I take it that this is just the item to cover the amount of old age pensions provided by order in council?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-
55),. Treatment of -Canadian fishermen and seamen, $10,000.
Harry Grenfell Archibald: I should like to bring up a point under this item. Last year I dealt with the Canada Shipping Act. Under that act if a man goes out on a boat and winds up sick so that :he cannot get back to his home port in the same ship, he cannot get treatment. In other words, if a boat were to sink and a man were hurt in the process, in some way or another that boat would have to be dragged up again to take the man back to his home port in order that he might get treatment. I want to bring this matter to the attention of the minister so that he may be able to help in overhauling the Canada Shipping Act to straighten this up.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I shall look into it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion
[Stage Direction]
556. Treatment of repatriated merchant seamen, $2,000.
William Scottie Bryce: Does this apply only to sailors from ships registered within the British commonwealth of nations?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, it is to provide treatment for seamen on vessels of any of the allied nations who find themselves in Canada needing such treatment and who are not otherwise entitled to it.


William Scottie Bryce: Is this what applies to distressed seamen?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes; it is a war measure.


William Scottie Bryce: Of all countries in the world?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Allied nations.


William Scottie Bryce: Only allied nations?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


William Scottie Bryce: Is there any treatment for the others?


Paul Joseph James Martin: This was a war measure, and we were not anxious to help the enemy, as I know the hon. gentleman will appreciate.


William Scottie Bryce: But I want to be clear about this. There is a law in this country, as there is in all countries of the world, regarding

distressed seamen who are stranded away from home. Which item do those fellows come under, please?


Paul Joseph James Martin: This is for all allied seamen.


William Scottie Bryce: Which item deals with distressed seamen away from home?


Paul Joseph James Martin: We passed that three nights ago.


William Scottie Bryce: Which item was it?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Do you mind if I point it out to you later? I cannot recall it offhand.


William Scottie Bryce: I don't think I am getting a fair answer, Mr. Chairman.


Paul Joseph James Martin: We dealt with that matter, but I cannot remember the number of the item. It has to do with the treatment of sick mariners.


William Scottie Bryce: If I stood up and annoyed the minister repeatedly, perhaps I would get more consideration.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I tell the hon, gentleman he could not annoy anybody.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is that a compliment or an insult?


Paul Joseph James Martin: A compliment, definitely.
I do not want to incur my hon. friend's displeasure, because he is a gentleman. Does he understand?


William Scottie Bryce: You do not need to say those nice things to me. I am only asking a question -in the ordinary way of my duty in this house.
I am asking you about distressed seamen, and you wave me aside and say it has been passed.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Well, we did pass it. I can only call attention to the rule which says we must deal with the item under consideration.


William Scottie Bryce: That is all right; I will get the information in some other way.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-
559. Grant to Canadian nurses' association, $46,525.
Frank Exton Lennard: I am not opposed to this increase, but could the minister tell me the reason for it?


Paul Joseph James Martin: This item is to cover the amount required for the fiscal year 1947-48 toward the completion of training of those students nurses who had enrolled prior to August 15, 1945, under the project launched in 1942 to increase the supply of nurses in Canada because of the shortage created by war. It is expected that the project will be finally completed in 1948.

Supply-Health and Welfare


Frank Exton Lennard: I would call attention to the large sums which I mentioned as being granted to the Victorian Order of Nurses for practically the same work, to assist in the training of nurses during the past several years.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I think, on reflection, the hon. member will quite agree that the work is entirely different.


Frank Exton Lennard: The Victorian Order are all trained nurses, are they not?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes, but it is quite different.


Frank Exton Lennard: They have to receive that training, and it has to be paid for?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: There are two questions in regard to this item. First, what was the total expenditure last year on these items, the actual expenditure; and, second, I take it that this is the last year we shall be having demobilization and reconversion items under this department, and that these items arise in all cases from orders in council?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I think that is likely the case.


Donald Methuen Fleming: That is not a very satisfactory answer.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Well, I am no seer. It look as though this item will be liquidated this year, but I want to give an honest answer and that is the only answer any honest man can give. In regard to the grants to the nurses' association, the amount estimated last year was $25,535-


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, I am speaking of the total; I need not trouble the minister for the details. What was the total expenditure corresponding with the estimate last year of $10,158,760?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The expenditure was $283,064,172; and unliquidated, $47,525.58.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister is on the wrong question. He has gone back to something I asked a. short time ago. The present question is, what was the total expenditure in 1946-47 corresponding to the total estimated expenditure on page 74 of the estimates, which is given as $10,158,760?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Repeat your question. The information I have just given is in reply to the question you put a while ago. What is the question now, please?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I shall be glad to have the information with respect to the other question, too, if the minister will give it.


Paul Joseph James Martin: You are asking for the expenditure corresponding to the estimate of $10,634,000; is that it?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, the estimate of $10,158,760.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It was $9,702,984.39.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister was to answer a question I asked earlier, just to complete the record. He was to give the unliquidated commitment under items for publicity and information in all branches of the department. He gave the actual expenditure last year as $278,326.84.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The unliquidated commitments amount to $80,756.50.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Am I correct in inferring, then, that the actual expenditure last year, including commitments, on publicity and information in round figures was $295,000 and that this year the budget actually proposes an increase instead of a decrease, as was previously figured? This year you are estimating the expenditure of $390,000, which actually is an increase of about $100,000, not a decrease.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I did not hear one word you said; I am sorry.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am sure that was not my fault.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No. It was no one's fault.


Donald Methuen Fleming: How far back must I go? This reminds me of a long-distance telephone conversation where you find, half-way through your conversation, that the line has been cut.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Do not go back too far.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I shall put it as briefly as I can. It comes down to this, that the actual expenditures, including unliquidated commitments, for the fiscal year ended 194647 on account of items for publicity and information in this department total approximately $297,000. The estimate for which the minister is asking this year is $390,000. Actually he is asking for an increase over last year's expenditures, of about $100,000, not a decrease of $180,000. as was assumed at the beginning.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The actual expenditures were $278,326.84. The unliquidated commitments were $80,000, making a total of $358,000.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Then the minister is still budgeting for an increase of $32,000 in expenditure on this item this year.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I did promise that at the close of these estimates I would leave a place at which the hon. member for Queens could
Supply-Health and Welfare

speak. His remarks were not relevant before, but we shall be generous and say that they are at this time.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I am glad the minister has come to the end of a perfect day. I should have asked the question when we were discussing item 229. I have in mind a child born in Gibraltar. The mother was and is a Canadian citizen. The father was an English soldier who served six years in the air force, two years of which were spent in Canada. They are now residing in and residents of Canada. Is the child eligible for family allowances?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am sorry it is not.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Why?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Three years residence is required under the act.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, may I thank the committee for its consideration. Last year I was Secretary of State and brought before the committee estimates which were not as voluminous. I believe the committee will appreciate that this year they have been much more voluminous. The committee did give me every consideration, for which I am grateful.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Courtesy always counts.



DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS

[Stage Direction]
279. Departmental administration, $227,019.
Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Mr. Chairman, living as I do in Halifax, a long distance from Ottawa, I generally have to stay here most of the time. In view of the fact, however, that in the near future an event is to take place in Halifax, I may have to travel home more frequently. Before doing so, I should like to take this opportunity to say a few words with respect to public works.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: You should get home in time to vote, at any rate.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: With that in mind, I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister of Public Works various projects which I have placed before him from time to time, because I believe they are important not only to Halifax but to the fishing industry of Nova Scotia. I refer to such items as breakwaters, wharves and causeways which affect the work of fishermen in our province. I do not expect a complete answer this evening, but I would ask his officials to give these items the careful consideration which I believe they deserve.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Will the hon. member
include the Halifax-Dartmouth tunnel?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I have listened to the hon. member for Royal on more than one occasion interrupt me when I have been speaking about matters relating to Halifax, concerning which he has shown very little knowledge. On this occasion I do not propose to deal with such interruptions.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I have a pretty clear
knowledge as to why these items are to be discussed now.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I have no intention of entering into any controversy on any foolish subject which might be raised in an effort to draw me away from what I have in mind.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Save it for the hustings.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I have brought the attention of the Minister of Public Works to projects which we really require.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: You have needed them for a long time.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: As I said before, I do not mention these matters because of the event hon. members opposite have in mind. I have discussed them repeatedly.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: And you have got nowhere with them.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I have been successful in getting a number of them, but naturally there are others which are just as urgent. First, I shall draw the minister's attention to the very important item of dredging. One cannot very well sail in or out of some of these fishing coves without the proper depth of water. From time to time they fill up and require dredging. I have in mind, first, Herring Cove, a well known fishing district in Halifax county. Then, on more than one occasion I have brought Eastern Passage to the minister's attention. It has been slowly losing its fishing industry because the fishermen cannot leave or enter that point with the degree of safety which is required. Then, I would mention Paul's Point, another well known fishing centre; and also the beautiful spot with the lovely name of Modesty Cove.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Did you say "honesty"?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I could take hon. members to that point and they would agree with me as to its beauty. They would, I am sure, join with me in urging that my request be given every consideration.


Mr. MERRITT:: Is this a list of deficiencies of the government?

Supply-Public Works


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: The hon. member made his speech in Halifax a few nights ago. While he must realize it was not well received, still I hope he enjoyed his trip to Halifax and will come back again some time after July 14. It may do him no harm, and we will try to make his return visit as interesting as we did the last one.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: On a point of order, do we not discuss dredging under item 306?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I know the hon. member does not want to be too careful about these items. We are dealing with administration and you cannot carry out any particular item without the proper administration. Therefore I feel quite justified in dealing with this and other matters.
The second matter I wish to deal with is the need of breakwaters. This is closely connected with the fishing industry, because you cannot give the fishermen in these fishing communities protection for their boats without breakwaters.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Did the hon. member say "votes" or "boats".


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Boats.


Mr. FRASER:: He said fishing for votes.


George Hugh Castleden: For fish or suckers.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: The hon. member of the official opposition made a kindly reference, not at all like the one just used by the other hon. member.
In connection with breakwaters, I am going to refer to some definite places. Ketch Harbour is a well known fishing district and a breakwater is required there. One is required also at Little Harbour and also at Portuguese Cove. Then I would mention Upper Prospect, Mosher Cove, Smiley's Point, Herring Cove, Meagher's Point and Paul's Point.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Are those places all in the county of Halifax?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: A breakwater is also required at Devil's Island. I should like to deal in more particular with Devil's Island. I do not propose to go over it fully again, but previously I brought this matter to the attention of the Minister of Public Works. On August 10, 1946, I referred at some length to Devil's Island and the need of the inhabitants for protection. As I pointed out, it is almost impossible to leave the island at times without this protection and they have been unable to procure medical aid when it was badly needed. I want the minister to bear this Devil's Island project in mind and perhaps he will tell me what has been done in the way of surveys and1 so on.
A large number of wharf repairs are required and it is readily understood why these repairs are needed at the present time. During the war we were told that economy was the policy and the necessary repairs were not carried out to a number of these wharves. I would mention Baker's Point, Dover East, Dover West, Owl's Head, Ship Harbour, Upper Prospect, Shad Bay, Ostrea Lake and Ketch Harbour.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Do not miss any coves.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: That is a short list but they are all fishing villages. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre and those who come from inland places are not familiar with the needs of these fishermen.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Four generations on that coast; I know all about it.


Edmund Davie Fulton: On a point of order, I should like to ask whether these matters should not be discussed on the estimates of the chief electoral officer rather than those of the Department of Public Works?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I am afraid I shall have to call to my assistance the hon. member for Vancouver North to administer another spanking to the hon. member for Kamloops if he interrupts again in such a foolish manner.


Mr. McILRAITH:: The last spanking was effective for a while.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Once again I want to carry on with the fishing industry.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: What are you fishing for,
Suckers?


Angus MacInnis: The season will be over on July 14.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: My hon. friend asks if I am fishing for suckers. I want to tell him that we do not deal with that sort of thing in our fishing villages; we throw back the suckers, as we have no use for them. If the hon. member will come down to Halifax some time I will take him out through the fishing districts, and if he uses that sort of language he will not be welcome.
There is one piece of causeway construction which I am under the impression has been started already, but I want to make sure it will be carried through to completion. I refer to the causeway at Three Fathoms harbour. This is not the causeway in Halifax harbour referred to a little while ago by the hon. member for Royal. Then there are a few skidways required. These do not cost very much money and I know they will be con-
Supply-Public Works

structed if I just bring them to the attention of the minister. One is needed at Duncan's Cove and one at Bald Rock.
There is one important matter I should like to refer to which was brought up a year or so ago in connection with the R.M.S. Queen Elizabeth and the reason why she left Halifax to sail to New York. Having the fine harbour that we have, I never could understand why it was necessary for the Queen Elizabeth to leave Halifax and turn toward New York. The reason given was that a southeast wind would endanger the ship. We never ask for anything in the way of dredging, but we do require a permanent breakwater at Mauger's Beach to provide the necessary protection from southeast winds. If the minister will be good enough to give us that breakwater we shall have without question the safest and finest harbour in North America and perhaps in the whole world.


Mr. PEARKES:: It is just the Atlantic coast you are dealing with.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I will leave it to my hon. friend to deal with the Pacific coast. I doubt very much if the Queen Elizabeth could enter Vancouver harbour. Just think that over.


George Randolph Pearkes: She could get into Nanaimo all right.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: In connection with this breakwater at Mauger's Beach I remember receiving letters from the minister in February and March in which he stated that borings would be commenced in May. We are now into June and I should like to know if those borings have been commenced.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Was that back in the cold weather?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I ask the minister to make a note of that and let me know whether those borings have been started.
Now to satisfy the hon. member for Royal in regard to the Halifax-Dartmouth bridge, I hesitate to mention this because it might be said that I have an election in mind. If there is one thing I would not want the committee to think it is that such a thing is in my mind at the present time. However I do remember sitting in the Halifax forum in 1930 and seeing a large banner right across the back of the platform reading, "Elect R. B. Bennett and he will give you the Halifax-Dartmouth bridge." Mr. Bennett was speaking in Halifax at that time and he made that definite promise. I never make that kind of promise, but I do make strong appeals to the government of the day to do certain things. I do not make promises


Wilfrid Garfield Case: You are not a leader yet. .


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: And. I am not likely to be, nor am I anxious to resume that responsibility, recognizing my shortcomings, but I am always ready to offer constructive thoughts, and I am asking the Minister of Public Works to consider the possibility of cooperating, with the provincial government, the city of Halifax and the town of Dartmouth in regard to building a Halifax-Dartmouth bridge. I have written the deputy minister of public works in regard to the construction at Vancouver of the Second Narrows bridge, to which a federal contribution was made on June 24, 1925, and a further payment later. In all, the total commitment in connection with this bridge was $269,936. If that can be done on the west coast, are we not as good as the east coast? We feel that if it. was found possible to help construct the Second Narrows bridge at Vancouver the department could assist in the construction of a similar bridge to connect Halifax and the enterprising town of Dartmouth on the east side of the harbour.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, in view of the remarks of the hon. member I just wish to point out to you that we on this side will expect to have the advantage of a general discussion on this item.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I do not see any point of order in that, but I do not mind an interruption of that kind..
I should not like to resume my seat without extending thanks to the Minister of Public Works for some of the projects which he has carried out at Halifax during the past year.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Let us have a list of them.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I shall be glad to comply with the request of the hon. member and mention a few of them. I thank the Minister of Public Works for the sub-post office in Halifax North, an item for which is included in these estimates. We have been working for years for a sub-post office in Halifax North, which is one of the most important sections of the city of Halifax. I hope that the post office will be started this year.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: If it took many years to get this post office, how long will it take to get all the other things for which the hon. member is asking?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I hope this will be started within the next three months.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: What does the minister say?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I hope he will say that we can look forward to having the work started within

Supply-Public Works
the next two or three months. If he says that he will carry it out; I know him well enough to believe he will do so. I would also thank him for the item in his estimates for the Halifax Armdiale post office. That is also a sub-post office which is badly required in a very fine and growing district. Many hon. members know the district and I know it will serve the people in a proper manner.
While credit should go to the Department of Veterans Affairs, I want to thank the Minister of Public Works because his department is looking, after the construction of the addition to Camp Hill hospital, to look after the needs of our ex-service men.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Why not have a record made and sent down there?


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: The hon. member was down . there and perhaps he left a record.


Arthur Leroy Smith: It was the most hospitable place I was ever in.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: That is the way we teach them to be down there. Through cooperation, we extend a welcome to all who visit Halifax.
Just one other thought in closing. I wish to refer to the retirement age of casual employees such as labourers, sweepers and helpers. You retire them at sixty-five as though they were enjoying civil service superannuation or a pension. These men are not particularly fitted for all types of work, but they can carry on their present work beyond the age of sixty-five in an efficient manner.
It is the only kind of work they can do, and until such time as we bring in an old age pension bill to provide for that class of men at sixty-five, I believe that the department- and this applies to all departments-should permit these men to carry on their work at least until they are seventy years of age.
I wish to thank the minister and the members for allowing me to outline a few of the needs of my constituency, and I know I shall have the cooperation of all members in pressing the minister to provide these works at as early a date as possible.


Thomas Langton Church: I would ask the minister to have an investigation made of the heavy damages done by the floods at Toronto island to the breakwater. Many stores and houses, roads and yards were flooded. A return was ordered yesterday about this matter. Would the minister order a complete report on the federal breakwater at Wards, at Centre island and Gibraltar point on lake Ontario, and also answer the questions I raised just before six o'clock in regard to the parliament grounds,
monuments and traffic here, and better care of the monuments and parking cars on roadways.


Alphonse Fournier: If I recall what the hon. member said just before six o'clock he wanted me to undertake to move the monuments around the parliament buildings. We have no jurisdiction to do that. The grounds are under the care of the federal district commission, and I dare not touch those monuments or try to move them around.
As to the damage caused by floods at Toronto, after the hon. member came to see me I gave instructions to our engineer, Mr. Wilson, in Toronto, to make a survey of the breakwater and to report on any damage that took place there, and if this work comes under the jurisdiction of my department it will receive our best attention.
This afternoon the hon. member spoke about the circulation on parliament hill. The other day in answer to a question in the house I mentioned that some doubts had arisen about our jurisdiction under the act of 1931 concerning circulation on government properties. The act has been submitted to the justice department for their opinion, and if they find that we have not the necessary authority under the act we will certainly, not this session, but at another session, have an amendment made to the act.
I wish to thank the hon. member for Halifax for having begun his speech by stating that he would not ask me for definite answers to all the requests he had made. Indeed, I would be at a loss to make a definite statement with reference to each of these projects. The officials will have Hansard tomorrow or next week, and, as they do for every other member, they will give careful attention to any request made by the hon. member for Halifax.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: This must be the first time that he has brought them forward.


Alphonse Fournier: No; he has spoken to me about different projects before. I have received several visits from members on both sides of the house, and I try to be courteous and polite when they come to see me. I give instructions to my officials to do their best to give any help they can. I should like to add one more word in regard *to Halifax. Last year, during the debate on my estimates, a question arose about the breakwater or wharf at De\ il's island.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Protection work.
Supply-Public Works


Alphonse Fournier: Protection work at Devil's Island. Perhaps I was a little tired of the discussion and cut it rather short, but the hon. member for Halifax was kind enough to send me a book entitled "We Keep this Light," by Madame Richardson. He sent this to me after the session and I had much pleasure in reading it. I am interested in Devil's Island, but there are few people living there and the expenditure is so great that my officials hesitate before committing the department to the spending of such large amounts of money. However, the hon. member may rest assured that the request from Halifax will receive serious consideration, and I may say the same with reference to the request from any other member.
There is always a general discussion on the first item of a department on going into supply, namely, administration, and I agree that it is a good thing to have members state everything they wish to either in praise of the estimates or in criticism. But I suggest that if any hon. member wishes to discuss a specific item the proper procedure would be to wait until that item is called. I have no objection to a general discussion, but if anyone wishes to discuss breakwaters or public buildings I suggest that he should wait until the appropriate item comes up for discussion. That is the proper way to proceed.


Thomas Langton Church: The city of Toronto gets nothing, whatever, and yet it is the chief taxpaying city in the Dominion of Canada; there is hardly a dollar in the estimates of the Public Works Department for that city. We spent over $30 million of our civic money on Toronto harbour and grade separation. That is the only harbour in Canada on which there are two representatives of the government. There are three representatives of the city, and all the money spent by the harbour board is civic money, chargeable to real estate and paid for by the taxpayers of that city. I am very much worried as one of the representatives from that city. We have one post office from which the government gets $13 million. There is a federal breakwater at Toronto island for which the dominion government has accepted responsibility since confederation, but little money has been spent on it over the past thirty years. There are some 20,000 people living on the island in the summer and fewer in the winter, and it is in a deplorable condition. It is now flooded. Many people have lived there all winter in view of the shortage in city accommodation. There is one boat crossing the bay and it has to break the ice in the winter time. The cottages are now under water; the whole island

is ruined by the flood, and the time has come for this government to send someone there and to announce a definite policy in connection with that island. The minister, I may say, came to our city on one occasion and we were glad to entertain him.


Alphonse Fournier: More than once.


Thomas Langton Church: He was properly tendered a dinner and a luncheon by the city and the harbour board, and altogether he had a pleasant visit. I wish you had been there also, Mr. Chairman. He was out on the new harbour boat and inspected the harbour, and I do not think I am revealing any secrets when I say that we took him to Woodbine where he placed a few small bets, so that it was a profitable and enjoyable trip for him. I can assure him that a similar warm welcome awaits him the next time he comes. Whether he will do anything for us or not is another matter.
However, the other day I went over to the island and I saw for myself the condition there. I saw water on the main street and thousands of men, women and children have to live under those conditions. Some have to wear their top boots in water and all that sort of thing. One fellow selling bread had a hard time of it. The bread was all covered with water. The city has contributed nearly one-third of all income taxes received in the dominion, and I think it should get something in return. We have had no representative from the Toronto district in the federal cabinet since 1Q3S, whereas we used to have four or five members in the cabinet. No wonder we do not get anything. Of course, to the victor belong the spoils, especially in this department, where it seems that has been the policy by all parties for many years past.
We did have a harbour board, and the city contributes a large part of the cost of reclaiming and rebuilding the waterfront. It bought it out and spent a large sum of money on the harbour and island. People can go to the island for the price of a streetcar ticket and it is the working man's summer resort. I hope the minister will visit the city again and look over that district.
The courts, I may say, are without space. The city bought 465 Bay street, the dominion building. The city hall is overcrowded, and the city bought this dominion building across the road. I urge upon the minister the importance of looking into this matter. It may not be in his department, and of course I appreciate the fact that he has a hard time in finding space. I do not want to worry him, but I think he should come to the city of Toronto and witness fc-r himself the result the terrible storms have had on the island.

Supply-Public Works


Mr. JAENICKE:: I wish I were in the position of the hon. member for Halifax and could give thanks to the minister for having done something for my constituency and my province last year and for having made provision this year, but I am afraid my remarks will be critical because of the apparent discrimination in the distribution of the moneys to be voted for public works. The committee will note that there is a total of approximately $46 million to be voted to the minister's department, and about one-quarter of this is to be spent in the city of Ottawa. About half of the money is to be spent on two items, one classified as construction, repairs and improvement to public buildings, and the other as construction, repairs and improvements to harbours and rivers. In connection with these two items, the estimates are broken down into provinces, and I have taken the trouble of adding them up to show the committee just how this money, approximately half of the vote, is spent.
In connection with improvements to public buildings, Nova Scotia gets $112,500, and all this, by the way, is to be spent in Halifax. New Brunswick gets $131,000, and Prince Edward Island gets $50,000. Then there is another item of $200,000 to be divided between the three maritime provinces. So I have divided this $200,000 equally among those three provinces, and I find that Nova Scotia is to get $178,500; New Brunswick, $197,000, and Prince Edward1 Island, $116,000.


Mr. McGARRY:: What do the farmers in the west get for wheat?


Frank Eric Jaenicke: I am coming to that. Now we come to the province of Quebec. They get $2,436,650. The province of Ontario gets $2,574,000. The province of Manitoba gets $403,000. The province of Saskatchewan gets $179,500. The province of Alberta gets $667,200, and the province of British Columbia gets $963,400.
When we come to the provision for harbours and rivers we find that Nova Scotia gets $4,716,600, out of a total of $4,895,100 for harbours, rivers and public buildings. For expenditure on rivers and harbours, New Brunswick gets $767,000, or a total, including expenditure on public buildings, of $964,600. Prince Edward Island gets an expenditure for harbours and rivers of $415,500, or a total expenditure of $531,500. Quebec gets, with respect to harbours and rivers, $3,556,500, or a total expenditure of $5,993,150 for public works in Quebec. Ontario gets, with respect to harbours and rivers, $4,017,000, or a total of public works expenditures of $6,591,000. Manitoba gets, with respect to harbours and
rivers, $536,500, or a total expenditure on public works of $939,500. Saskatchewan and Alberta are lumped together with regard to harbours and rivers and they get $25,000 together. Saskatchewan gets an improvement of $70,000 at Waskesiu lake in the Prince Albert national park. So Saskatchewan will get in that respect $82,500, or a total expenditure of $262,000 for public works in that province for the coming year. Alberta gets only the $12,500 as far as rivers and harbour installations are concerned, or a total expenditure of $679,700. British Columbia's expenditure on harbours and rivers is $2,006,000, or a total expenditure of $2,969,400 on public works.


Mr. SINCLAIR (Vancouver North):: Not nearly enough.


Frank Eric Jaenicke: Possibly it is not enough, but I should like the committee to consider the discrimination against the three western provinces and especially as against the province of Saskatchewan which gets a total expenditure of $262,000.


Mr. MacLEAN:: What are you going to use it for?


Frank Eric Jaenicke: We will not enter into a debate on that just at the present time. I submit that in the province of Saskatchewan we have as many requests for public buildings and other things as hon. members have in any other province in Canada. I submit that this is discrimination and that it should not happen again. I looked up last year's estimates and the same thing happened then; it also happened the year before, I believe. I think the three western provinces are being discriminated against, and I protest.


William Henry Golding: Shall the item carry?


Alphonse Fournier: Just a minute, Mr. Chairman.; I cannot allow that statement to go unchallenged. The hon. member mentioned the figures for harbours and rivers for every province. Would he be ready to admit that in his province of Saskatchewan, or in Alberta, there is no seaside and there are no ports or large rivers where there is navigation?


Frank Eric Jaenicke: Yes, I admit that.


Alphonse Fournier: Under these
items we try to help along the seaboard at both coasts, on the St. Lawrence and on the great lakes. The hon. member says we spent more in Nova Scotia. That has been going on for years and there is a good reason for it. There is more coastline along the Nova Scotia
Supply-Public Works

seaboard than in any other province in the dominion. Furthermore, in Nova Scotia more people depend for their livelihood on harbour facilities than in any other province in Canada. That is the explanation. No grain grower would think of dredging out in Manitoba except in lake Winnipeg. I will call as a witness one of my hon. friend's own colleagues, the hon. member for Selkirk, and ask him if we are not taking care of works which are needed to help the people out there? I like hon. members to be fair and not lead the country to believe that we are spending all our money in Nova Scotia and not spending money on dredging or building breakwaters or wharves in Saskatchewan. Where would we do it?


Frank Eric Jaenicke: That is why I divided the estimates.


Alphonse Fournier: Yes, you divided them and then you added.


Frank Eric Jaenicke: What about public
buildings?	,


Alphonse Fournier: Compare public buildings with some other province. The hon. member himself says that we have an estimate of only some $112,000 for the whole province, and that we have some $4 million odd for rivers and harbours to help the fishermen who are creating new wealth, just as we try to help the grain growers out west. That is the whole policy. It is the policy not only of this government, but has been the policy of every government since confederation. Those who have experience in these matters will support what I am saying tonight. Does the hon. member think it is fair to go out to Manitoba or to his province and say, "Now, listen, New Brunswick receives $765,000 for harbours-


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: For public buildings.


Alphonse Fournier: Let us see what they have for public buildings right in this.


Frank Eric Jaenicke: Look at Quebec and Ontario.


Alphonse Fournier: If you give me time I will give you an explanation for Ottawa. You say that half of the money is spent in Ottawa. It cannot be spent elsewhere. That is where we have our activities. We take care of all the public buildings the government needs for its some twenty odd departments. The government here needs a staff. The hon. member is complaining that the buildings are not well maintained or in a good state of repair. He will admit that right in the city of Ottawa we have 150 buildings or thereabouts owned or occupied by the government.

I will just try to put the hon. gentleman right. I try to be fair, but, really, the remarks he made tonight are of a kind that I have not heard in the last seventeen years in this House of Commons. He tried to show that in the expenditures of money voted here the Department of Public Works are discriminating against certain provinces. I give him my word that in the last five years nothing of the sort has taken place. I rely on the reports of my officials in thirteen districts all through the country who advise me on the necessity as to buildings, public works or public facilities such as harbours or breakwaters. Take the expenditure in New Brunswick for public buildings, $13-1.000. But the hon. member says they received $765,000 or thereabouts for harbours and rivers. New Brunswick is another province where the fishermen need our help in providing these facilities. They come under federal jurisdiction and we have to do our best to take care of them. Prince Edward Island is in the same position. If you take Quebec, they have all the Gaspe coast, the bay of Chaleur and the St. Lawrence river, and there is fishing there. We maintain harbours and wharves on the St. Lawrence. Why? Because people need those facilities to earn their living, and that is one way to help the public. If you come into Ontario and look at the amount we spend there, it is principally on the great lakes. We have harbours and breakwaters and wharves on the great lakes, which require the expenditure of money. But when I come to Saskatchewan and Alberta I am at a loss to see where I can build wharves or breakwaters or even do dredging. As regards British Columbia, there again they have a long coast. You may say we are spending over $2,000,000 there-


James Sinclair: Not nearly enough.


Alphonse Fournier: Perhaps we are not spending enough, but still we are trying to meet the needs of these people on the west coast. They also carry on fishing out there; they have small inlets and harbours, and they have not the means to put up these wharves themselves. I have spoken of harbours and rivers. If you take public buildings, I do not think in the last four years any province has received very much in the way of buildings. If you study my estimates well you will find that in nearly every case the items are revotes because the money could not be spent. I explained that this afternoon at some length. I gave the reasons why we could not proceed; lack of our own staff, lack of building materials, in many instance lack of man-power, and so on. After a survey of the whole country, I wss advised on good

Supply-Public Works
authority, not only by my friends but by people I met throughout the country, that this was not the time to start on a building programme if we wanted to devote most of our energies to putting up homes and taking care of the housing situation. Perhaps we are wrong; perhaps we should drop the housing problem and put up big public buildings in various cities throughout the country. No doubt they are needed', but I am sure the hon. member would be the first to blame me if I did that.


Frank Eric Jaenicke: I offered no criticism of the votes for Ottawa, 280, 281 and 282, which total some $13,000,000 and include maintenance and so on. As far as Ontario is concerned, the $2,574,000 includes almost $700,000 to be spent in Ottawa, but the remaining $2,000,000 is to be spent in the west of the province. I quoted these headings separately, in order to distinguish between public buildings and rivers and wharves, or whatever the items cover. I submit that there is an apparent discrimination between Ontario and Quebec on the one hand and the other provinces on the other, and that is the point I had in mind.


Frank Exton Lennard: I agree with the minister that many matters usually brought up on thg general item could be dealt with very well on specific items as we come to them, but I should like to put on record at least one point. Many acres of land along the shoreline of lake Ontario are being lapped up, and have been lapped up during the past few years, by that lake. If I can be assured by the minister that his department is giving this question serious consideration I do not think any lengthy debate will be necessary.
Mr.FOURNIER (Hull): If the hon. gentleman would wait there is an item under which that question can be discussed. It is item 328, to provide for remedial works where damages are caused by or endanger navigation or federal government structures.


Frank Exton Lennard: That is all I want to know.


Alphonse Fournier: That would be the proper item.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I was glad to hear the minister say he had made a tour across the country inquiring into the matters coming under his department. Some years ago, in the days of one of Canada's greatest statesmen, than whom there was no greater, Right Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier made a tour of the west, on which he was accompanied by a predecessor of the minister, Hon. William

Pugsley. An investigation into the problems concerning the navigation of the Saskatchewan river was carried on by the department engineers, whose names I have forgotten for the moment, since I had not intended to say anything about this matter, and they made a report which, I am sure, is available in the department, a copy of which I have in my room. At that time Sir Wilfrid, in addressing a great meeting at St. Andrew's locks, told his listeners what he hoped would follow from the works at St. Andrew's locks was the canalization of the Saskatchewan river right up to Edmonton. I shall not detain the committee longer than to say that since the minister is interested, as I believe he is. and since he has an inquiring mind, I am going to ask him to read the reports which his officials will find for him in the department, and on which Sir Wilfrid based his intention of canalizing that river. Had he lived and been in power to carry out his intention, there would have been harbours and government installations on the Saskatchewan river. The successor to Mr. Pugsley did start some work at Cole rapids, west of the forks of the Saskatchewan, where they remain to this day. I would suggest that when the minister next goes to Prince Albert, I know the city engineer will be glad to drive him down to Cole rapids, as he very kindly drove me there, where he will see the remains of the locks started at that time, still in good condition.
If the hon. gentleman remains as minister I would suggest that later on he bring in a programme for the canalization of the Saskatchewan river as far as Edmonton. This would be a great boon for the west. They would be able to bring low priced but good coal from Edmonton right down to Winnipeg; it would float all the way down to lake Winnipeg. I have been over the course from one end to the other and intended to speak on the matter on another occasion much more fully. This evening, however, I merely wish to invite the minister to follow the footsteps of those other great ministers of public works, Hon. Robert Rogers, who built the locks at Cole rapids, and Hon. William Pugsley, who envisaged them, and planned to canalize the Saskatchewan river. Then, if the minister remains in office long enough to complete a shipping route from Edmonton right down to Winnipeg, hon. gentlemen to my left will not be able on another occasion to charge him with not having canals and locks and harbours in the west to vote money for.


Moses Elijah McGarry: I have endeavoured to be an appreciative audience while hon, members from the prairies have solicited well merited
Supply-Public Works

assistance in order to carry on their industry. I think their demands were justified, and I believe the government have been very generous in making available the millions of dollars they have required to carry on under profitable conditions. However I get a little provoked when we are talking about harbours, breakwaters and dredging to find these members, who have been accorded, generous assistance, taking issue when we of the maritime provinces are undertaking to establish harbour facilities through which they of the western provinces may export their grain to foreign markets. I find it annoying when hon. members from the west take that stand. I believe the Department of Public Works has been fairly generous in affording the maritime provinces facilities required to carry on our fisheries and to provide harbours in order that those in the -west may have an exit to outside markets. Speaking particularly for my own constituency, one which is sea-bound, I would say to the department that there are many things we require. But, speaking generally and without going into detail, I would say that the Department of Public Works has been reasonably generous in affording facilities.
I had not intended speaking at this time, but had decided to wait until later to ask more detailed questions. However I am provoked when I hear western members speak as I have heard them tonight when, as I have said before, we of the east have formed an appreciative audience in respect of the solicitations they have advanced from time to time. I believe it was recognized on both sides of the house that they were justified in what they asked, but I cannot understand any member from the prairies taking issue with the few little incidental items afforded us in the maritime provinces, especially when we have never raised our voices in an antagonistic fashion when they have made requests on behalf of their constituents.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: Over a year ago a certain company in Vancouver made an offer to the minister to remove Ripple Rock on a no-cure, no-pay basis. Will the minister make a statement with respect to the action his department has taken on that offer?


Alphonse Fournier: I suppose that
in the general discussion I am bound to have something to say about Ripple Rock.


Thomas Reid: You must have been expecting it.


Alphonse Fournier: Yes, I expected it.


Howard Charles Green: It is your problem child.


Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):: Tell them the story about it.


Alphonse Fournier: I think I should. In April, 1942, authority of council was secured to accept the offer of the British Columbia Bridge and Dredging Company Limited to carry out the work of removing Ripple Rock on a cost plus, variable fee basis, the estimated cost supplied by the company at the time being $322,340. The depth to be left after dredging was thirty feet below low water level. The work included the construction of a rock filled dam across the adjacent passage between Maude island and Quadra island, which portion of the work was satisfactorily completed.
The drill barge for the work was designed, tested in model form, and construction put underway.
In the meantime, in October, 1942, inquiry was made on behalf of the United States as to the additional cost of increasing the grade depth to be left after dredging, the additional depth being 3-8 feet. It was during the war that these things took place. The contractors supplied this with their estimate of the cost, including the completed rock dam across Maude island passage, of $473,894, in addition to a fee of $35,000. This was approved by P.C. 2609 of April 1, 1943. The contractors estimated the time required at fifteen months. The barge was outfitted and brought to the site in May, 1943, and moored by cables from the barge winches to heavy concrete anchors dropped in deep water, but it was not until the 15th July that drilling of the rock from the barge commenced.
In October, 1943, it was decided to discontinue operations as the original method appeared to be a failure. Further studies of the problem were made and various discussions were held on the subject by the Canadian and United States authorities.
In October, 1944, authority of council was obtained to accept an offer from the British Columbia Bridge and Dredging Company to make a test for removal of the rock by means of two overhead lines. The test was put under way, but the cost was greater than anticipated and operations were discontinued for a time. The trial was resumed, however, in August, 1945, and continued until the end of September, 1945, at which time the work was suspended as the drill barge required repairs and as unfavourable tidal conditions for further work would ensue for some months.
The contractors were requested to furnish an estimate of cost for completing operations, which they gave at $750,000 with a time for completion of twenty-two months.

Supply-Public Works
As a result of the test referred to above which was carried through to September 29, 1945, some 139 holes had been drilled for a combined length of 714-1 feet, of which ninety-three holes of a combined length of 529 feet had been successfully blasted. The length of the individual hole which can be drilled-that is, between five and six feet- indicates that the problems of removing the rock which had been blasted and of drilling and blasting further holes in order to reach the necessary final agreed depths still remain to be solved.
The contractors were asked to name the sum within which they would guarantee complete removal of the rock to the desired grade. Although in their reply they stated "we are definitely of the opinion that the test as carried out has proven entirely successful and we are convinced that the work should be further proceeded with", they would not give any such guarantee.
The contractors were asked to reconsider their previous estimate of $750,000 and to say if they would undertake to complete the work on a basis of such revised estimate, the performance to be guaranteed by a satisfactory bond under which any cost in excess of the estimate would be shared fifty-fifty by the bonding company and the government. They furnished a revised estimate in the amount of $1.844,428.00, plus a fee of $90,000 and stated that, having approached several reliable bonding companies, they were advised that the bonding companies were not interestedi in writing such a bond. One company agreed to supply a completion bond for any amount, provided that the government would make the necessary payment in cash to be held as security, such security to be the total amount of the bond desired, with the contract to be continued on a cost plus, fixed fee basis.
This department felt hat in the light of three years experience in operating on the project, the contractors should, if they were as confident as they expressed themselves to be that the work could be completed by the methods they proposed, be prepared to submit a firm offer, and. that the suggestion that the excess cost, be shared fifty-fifty was as fair and reasonable as possible under the circumstances.
The whole situation was placed before the committee of the war cabinet. This information was contained in a report we were making to the Department of External Affairs with respect to the whole matter. It was decided at the time that we would, discontinue action until further developments in research in connection with the employment of new enegry methods were made.
When I was out on the coast last fall I do not know how many people called to see me concerning the removal of Ripple Rock. With what they published in the press they nearly had me having bad dreams when I was travelling by boat from Vancouver to Prince Rupert. I speak from memory, but I think the article was headed1, "Sleep well, Mr. Fournier." I passed1 by Ripple Rock about three in the morning, and perhaps they did not think to wake me so I could look at it.
1 spoke to the people there but no one would make a firm bid. I have not the file here but, after I came back to Ottawa, some company wrote in stating that they would handle this work on; a no cure, no pay basis. That is a rather general principle on which to base a contract.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: It is a rather advantageous one.


Alphonse Fournier: It all depends
upon the definition given to the word "cure". It did not turn out that way. They wanted to undertake the work and we asked them certain questions concerning the organization of their company and the experience they had in this kind of work. We found that they had no experience. I understand that this was a shipping company established some years ago. Even when we made inquiries to them, they took a long time to reply.
It finally came back to the old system of cost plus. I do not think any hon. member who has been out there and knows the situation would advise the government to undertake this work at the present time without being sure that the amount involved was known to the House of Commons. We have spent some $890,000 on the project up to date, and I would feel ill at ease to spend more of the people's money without some assurance that the work could be done.
Four different schemes have been, suggested to blast away the rock and remove it and to date we have tried three of them. One was to anchor a barge from which drilling operations could be carried on, but it was found that even with the heaviest anchors the barge could not be kept in position so that drilling could be carried on. The drills broke after going in a few inches and we had to discontinue that system. Then they spoke of tunneling under the rock, but the geologists advised that that could not be done because of faults in the rock. Another system suggested was to drop a caisson on the rock, empty it and then drill. However we have no guarantee that that can be done. If we cannot keep a barge in position to do the drilling
Supply-Public Works

we are not too sure that we could bring a cement caisson down there and drop it in the exact position where the work could be done.
There was one method which we thought would be successful. That was to string cables from shore to shore to hold a barge in place. That was the last scheme tried and on which we spent the remainder, of the 1890,000, but it met with little success. Holes were drilled and the rock was blasted, but they were unable to remove the blasted rock and it is still there. They could not drill more than five or six feet at a time and we wanted to go down to a depth of 33 feet. That would have taken between five and six operations of blasting and clearing away the debris. Somebody has suggested that an atomic bomb or atomic energy should be employed, but that is at the study stage only.


John Lambert Gibson: It is too close to my home.


Alphonse Fournier: I understand that this British Columbia dredging company is well known out there. I think if you met the people who undertook this work before they would not speak as they did five years ago. That is the impression I got when I was on the coast. It would take a brave man to undertake this job and say he will do it at such and such a price. In the department we feel that we cannot spend money endlessly on the project without any guarantee that it will be completed successfully.


Howard Charles Green: It would not take many
wrecks to cost as much as doing the work.


Alphonse Fournier: I admit that. Some engineers say that it is not as dangerous as other people think, but I recall that there was a wreck there.


Howard Charles Green: The government lost one of its own ships.


Alphonse Fournier: It was a Mines and Resources hydrographic survey boat. On the other hand, hundreds of thousands of boats have been travelling past there for years. The department is studying the effect of the changed currents which were brought about through the closing of Canoe Pass, which work was done under the past contract. The changing of these currents and improved aids have assisted navigation to some extent, and we are awaiting the reaction of the navigators before proceeding with any further attempts at removal.
In all, thirteen schemes have been submitted, most of which are modifications of the schemes that were submitted at the time
public tenders were called for the removal of the rock. All these schemes depend upon the use of present forms of energy. It is considered advisable to await any further action pending the development of new forms of energy that are at present in a research stage.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: The minister has suggested that perhaps there is not a firm offer and he talks about spending public money. I did not refer to the earlier history of this rock and the attempts to remove it. My question referred only to the Malahat Shipping Company Limited and their offer to remove Ripple Rock on a no-cure, no-pay basis. On October 23, 1946, they wrote to the minister making the following offer:
We, the Malahat Shipping Company (4934) Limited, a registered contracting company under the Companies Act, under provincial charter No. 18982, undertake to remove the surface of the obstruction known as Ripple Rock, situate in Seymour Narrows, Discovery Passage, between Maud island and Vancouver island, B.C., to a depth of 34 feet low water, spring tides, for a distance of 250 feet by 170 feet, to provide all equipment 'and labour for the said operation, guarantee not to obstruct the free passage of vessels using the channel (with the possible exception of a short period of time whilst fitting overhead wire cables), for the sum of one million five hundred thousand dollars (Mr 500,000) on a "no cure, no pay" basis.
I cannot imagine a more definite offer. No offer could more completely relieve the treasury of any expense in the event of failure. The method proposed is slightly different from any previous one used, in that there will be no barge used. It is proposed to use overhead cables to set up a platform over the rock with anchors and steel elevated piers sunk into the rock itself, the drilling to take place from this platform, which would, of course, not be subject to the tidal forces.


James Sinclair: How are you going to anchor these steel columns?


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I do not need to be helped; thank you very much.


James Sinclair: If you were an engineer you would know they would have to anchor them. That is what is wrong with the entire plan.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I am not aware that the hon. member for Vancouver North is an engineering expert as well as an expert in a lot of other matters.


James Sinclair: I know something about mining and I know you would have to drill holes. If the hon. member sticks to the legal profession I think he would do a little better.

Supply-Public Works


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: Apparently the hon. gentleman who is making these gratuitous interruptions is not interested in having Ripple Rock removed.


James Sinclair: I am very much interested in something practical.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I would have thought that he would consider it important enough at least to permit this discussion to continue without trying to embarrass someone else.


James Sinclair: We are all interested in that, but we are also interested in saving the taxpayers' money.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: Again, what a silly
interruption!


James Sinclair: A
silly speech.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I have just read out a firm offer to do this work on a basis where the dominion government will not have to pay one cent if the rock is not removed. How that is a needless waste of public money, I do not know. The hon. member very properly says that I am not an engineer. For any engineering statements I must rely on my informants, but I have an ample file with all sorts of information on this matter, and if the hon. member will hold his peace I will try to get over to the minister what I have to say in as short a space of time as possible. I say again that the hon. member does not aid us in trying to have this matter settled .properly by butting in the way he is doing.
I was describing the difference in the proposed method. I am not going into engineering details. The point I am putting forward is that under this proposal the difficulties which were faced previously-


Alphonse Fournier: If my hon. friend will permit me one question, is this the first letter that was sent to the Department of Public Works? Has he copies of the other letters which the company sent to us?


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: Certainly. I have, a voluminous file. I have written to the deputy minister on several occasions on this matter and have had replies from him. I was going to refer to some of those communications. I asked the deputy minister, since my assistance had been asked on several occasions, if he would be kind enough to let me know what was holding up the decision on this offer, and on April 9 last he wrote to me, setting out three matters which would have to be dealt with before the offer could be considered. Those three were: (1) that the company's proposals did not include the removal
of rock No. 2; (2) that proof of the company's financial stability would have to be supplied; and (3) proof of their ability to provide experienced personnel conversant with sub-aqueous rock drilling would have to be provided.
I communicated these requirements, which are, I think, quite proper, to the president of the company, and he replied both to myself and, I think, to the minister. An offer was made to guarantee the removal of rock No. 2 for an additional sum of $200,000. This letter I am reading from is from R. G. Lawson, president of the company, dated April 11, 1947, and is addressed to the minister. It gives an assurance that proof of financial stability through a bank would be provided, and the third requirement was some proof that the company had the experienced) personnel necessary to do this work.
I might also mention that the minister said something about the offer on a "no cure, no pay" basis having been withdrawn or that when you came to investigate it, it was not on a "no cure, no pay" basis. But in this letter dated April 11, last, the offer to do the work on a "no cure, no pay" basis is repeated. I will read that paragraph:
If the federal government is prepared to make a tentative offer, conditional on the company producing proof of finances to undertake the purchase of the necessary material and meet any and all other expenses incurred, vve are prepared to uphold our offer on a "no cure, no pay" basis.


Mr. POULIOT:: Would the hon. member be kind enough to read that again, as I did not hear it.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I am very sorry I shall not be able to comply with the hon. member's request. He can read it in Hansard tomorrow.


Jean-François Pouliot: I should like to know it now.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I have in my hand the latest letter I have had from this company, dated June 17 last. As the minister knows, this scheme has been given the blessing of Colonel W. G. Swan, who is a very well known engineer.


Alphonse Fournier: Have you that in writing?


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I have a newspaper clipping to that effect.


Alphonse Fournier: I should like to see the certificate of engineer Swan on what he advised.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: If the minister will let me finish-
Newfoundland


Jean-François Pouliot: The minister will get it in the morning.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Monday, June 23, 1947