[Stage Direction]
Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 452, respecting the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company Limited.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the mine and metallurgical plants of Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company Limited are situated astride the Manitoba-Saskatchewan interprovincial boundary adjacent to the town of Flin Flon, Manitoba. The company is the second largest producer of copper and zinc, is one of the larger producers of gold and silver in Canada, and employs at present some 2,200 men. The mining shaft and railway operated by the company run across the interprovincial boundary. The mill, zinc plant and smelter buildings are also situated on both sides of the boundary. While the great majority of the employees are resident in Manitoba and are hired and paid in Manitoba, about one-half of them are working in Saskatchewan and the other half in Manitoba; and in the
[Stage Direction]
Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting
course of their work they move back and forfh daily across the interprovincial boundary.
Throughout the war years, the company's operations were subject in matters of labour relations to P.C. 1003 and to the wage control order. The return of jurisdiction over labour relations and wages and working conditions to the provinces has raised a problem of unique difficulty both to the provinces and to the company with respect to the application of provincial legislation governing labour relations and terms and conditions of employment -notably holidays with pay and hours of work legislation-to the company's operations. This is particularly so as the legislation of the two provinces on these matters is not uniform. In matters of collective bargaining, neither the company nor the union are in a position to bargain with certainty on matters relating to terms and conditions of employment in view of the doubt and. difficulties as to application of provincial legislation.
The company has discussed the question with the governments of both Manitoba and Saskatchewan and with the Department of Labour in Ottawa, and also made a submission within the last week to the industrial relations committee of this house.
Manitoba and Saskatchewan, who are the only provinces interested in this matter, have requested that, with a view to meeting the admitted difficulties of the situation, the dominion should be asked to enact legislation to bring these mining operations of the company within the scope of dominion jurisdiction. Both governments have agreed on the procedure to be followed to effect this result, namely:
(a)	That parliament should declare these mining operations of the company to be works for the advantage of two or more provinces.
(b)	To provide that the rates of pay, hours of work and other terms and conditions of employment of employees of the company employed upon such undertaking shall be such as are established in collective agreements entered into from time to time between the company and the representatives of its employees but without affecting the application of provincial workmen's compensation *legislation.
The unions representing employees of the company support the company's representations and the foregoing proposals.
This bill is being proceeded with at this session and as the difficulties relating to the company's operations are represented by the company and by the provincial governments as requiring an early solution, the government decided it best to introduce this bill

which gives effect to the request of the two provinces mentioned and the representations made by the company to the industrial relations committee of this house. I believe that members of this house will be in agreement and be prepared to support the provisions of the bill.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.
Mr. SPEAKER:: When shall the said bill be read a second time?


Mr. KNOWLES:: Next sitting of the house.


Mr. MITCHELL:: As this measure has been agreed to by the provinces, the companies and the representatives of the men, I would ask the house for unanimous consent to proceed with it now.


Mr. ADAMSON:: As a member of the industrial relations committee, and knowing something about this bill, speaking for the Conservative party, I should be glad if unanimous consent were given to proceeding with further stages.


Mr. MacINNIS:: I should like to know just how far the minister would want to go. Does he intend that the bill be given second reading only at this stage, and considered in committee later. If that is the proposal I shall be very glad to agree to it.


Humphrey Mitchell: I would agree with that; give it second reading now and we will proceed with the committee stage later.
Motion agreed to and bill read the second time.



MILITIA PENSION ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. BROOKE CLANTON (Minister of National Defence) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to present a measure to amend the Militia Pension Act to provide that the governor in council may grant an annua] pension to a member of the forces who has contributed to the consolidated revenue fund under part V of the Act and who has served in the forces for ten years or upwards but less than twenty years, and who is certified by a board composed of not less than three medical officers of the forces as being disabled or incapable of performing his duties as a member of the forces.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.

Royal Style and Titles Act


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved the third reading of Bill No. 443, to amend the Senate and House of Commons Act.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: On division.
Motion agreed to on division and bill read the third time and passed.



ROYAL STYLE AND TITLES ACT

[Stage Direction]
OMISSION OF WORDS "iNDIAE IMPERATOR" AND "emperor of India"
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved the second reading of Bill No. 449, to provide for 'the alteration of His Majesty's royal style and titles.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.
On section 1-Short title.
Mr. POULIOT:: I have just one observation to make, and that is with regard to bills which come from Westminster to the dominions. There is a particular way of drafting them, and when they are passed at Westminster ip certain language they are supposed to be passed by the dominion in exactly the same language. I consider this plain red tape, and I will tell you why. The title does not affect the king as king of Canada; it affects him only as former emperor of India. Because the description of His Majesty the King of Great Britain as emperor of India is changed, I do not see why we should pass a bill like this, which does not concern us any more than a change in the name of the Dominion of Canada would affect the people of India. This is only to give us the illusion that we have something to do with that business. We 'have nothing to do with it. What is done concerning India does not concern Canada any more than what is done in Canada affects India, with the exception of trade relations.
This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened. I am a loyal subject of His Majesty the King. I 'have taken my oath of allegiance to him, and I have the greatest respect for the royal family. But I think this bill is just "blah blah", just to give Canada the illusion of having more importance than it has in interimperial relations. I protest against such legislation, which means nothing more than the consultation with Canada meant in
regard to the engagement of Princess Elizabeth. If Canada had said no, she would have got married just the same. This bill is just an illusion, just a mirage, and I protest once more against such legislation which is just a waste of the time of the house.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 and 3 agreed to.
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
TRUST COMPANIES ACT VARIOUS amendments
Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT (Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 417 to amend the Trust Companies Act.
He said: This bill contains a number of rather technical amendments to the Trust Companies Act. There has been no substantial amendment of that act since I think 1923 or 1924, and the trust companies who operate under dominion charter have discussed with the superintendent of insurance and with myself certain amendments which they felt it was desirable to make to the act in order to bring it up to date.
I can outline very briefly the principal amendments. First, they authorize an increase in the number of directors a company may have from twenty-one to thirty. The bill will permit the naming of an executive committe of the board of directors if desired. If these trust companies so desire they may have their capital divided into shares of $10 each instead of $100, which is consistent with the change made in the Bank Act at the last revision. There are provisions relating to the books of the company and transfers of stock, to bring them into line with the corresponding provisions of the Companies Act. There is an extension of the period for holding real estate other than office premises from seven to twelve years. The investment powers of trust companies are brought more nearly into conformity with those of Canadian life insurance companies under the insurance act. There are sundry minor amendments but those are the principal amendments to the act. The bill is now before the house.
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Peel):: I rise merely to make a suggestion to the minister with respect to this bill. As the minister has properly pointed out, the bill contains a number of technical amendments to the Trust Companies Act. Personally I think, and the
Trust Companies Act

view is shared by a number of my colleagues who are interested in this particular measure, that we would save much of the time of the house, and the bill would receive much better consideration, if we were now to give it second reading without debate and send it to the banking and commerce committee.
I know it is late in the session, and that is perhaps an, additional reason why it should oe referred to that committee, because we might have a lengthy examination of the various provisions of the act if we took it up in committee of the whole here. To adopt my suggestion would save a great deal of time. Moreover some of the amendments proposed call for information from officials of the department. I want to make that suggestion as one which in my opinion is constructive and one which would facilitate the work of the session.


Mr. ABBOTT:: Under ordinary circumstances I should be glad to comply with my hon. friend's suggestion, but I put forward this consideration for hon. members, that it should be unnecessary at this time to refer this bill to the banking and commerce committee. It was introduced in the Senate purposely that it might receive consideration both there and in the banking committee of the other place. The proposed amendments have been suggested after lengthy discussion and conferences between the association of trust companies and the superintendent of insurance. I do not think they are of a particularly controversial nature. They have been approved by the superintendent of insurance. I myself have been over them and I do not think they are objectionable. I really think they could be adequately considered in committee of .the whole, and I am prepared to give such explanations as may be called for. The superintendent of insurance, of course, will be on the floor with me.


Mr. FLEMING:: I would like to ask the Minister of Finance-


James Horace King: Order. May I point out :o the house that we are on the second reading of the bill. The minister has spoken after the motion was put, the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon) has spoken, and the minister has replied.


Douglas Charles Abbott: If I may be permitted,
Mr. Speaker, I was merely replying to a question. I would not want it to be considered that I was closing the debate.


James Horace King: I suggest to hon. members that if they have any questions to ask the minister they wait until the house is in committee on the bill.

Mr. DONALD M. FLEMING (Eglinton): I should like to say a word in favour of the proposal put forward by the member for Peel (Mr. Graydon) on the question of referring this bill to the banking and commerce committee. We are all concerned about saving the time of the house at this stage. That is an important consideration and I think we could save a good deal of time on what is after all a lengthy bill. The amendments may not all be of leading importance; nevertheless there are many of them. I do think that we can save considerable time if the bill is referred) to the banking and commerce committee, as it surely would in the ordinary course of events in an earlier stage of the session.
As one member of the banking and commerce committee, I for one value the .privilege accorded in that committee of hearing explanations on such bills from the superintendent of insurance, Mr. Finlayson, who is also responsible for administering the provisions of the Trust Companies Act. I am quite sure we could save time in this chamber, where time is precious, and we could do a better job on this bill. There would foe no delay, because the banking and commerce committee could foe called together on a few hours' notice. I am sure the house would do a far more satisfactory job fey following that course.


Mr. WILLIAM IRVINE (Cariboo):: I want add a word to what has been said by the member for Peel. I think that this bill should go to the appropriate committee, not only because it would save time but because it is technical in character and we should thoroughly understand what we are passing. I rise merely to suggest that to the minister.


Douglas Charles Abbott: If that is the wish of the house I am glad to comply. I am not pressing for the passage of the bill this year. It has been represented to the government as desirable in the interests of the efficient operation of trust companies, and if the banking and commerce committee can deal with it and) get it back into the house, so that we can get it through, that is satisfactory so far as I am concerned. I wish to make it perfectly clear, however, that I am not pressing for the passage of this bill. I do not wish to speed it up or to rush it through, and if the 'house feels that the banking and commerce committee can deal with it more adequately and we can get it through this session, well and good. I move accordingly.


Gordon Graydon: With your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, if I may say one more word, perhaps the minister would arrange, having regard to

Army Benevolent Fund
the stage of the session we have reached, to have the banking and commerce committee convene at once so that the matter will not be delayed.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is up to the chairman of that committee. I am sure he will try to accommodate hon. members.
Motion agreed to; bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on banking and commerce.



ARMY BENEVOLENT FUND


[Stage Direction]
Hon. BROOKE CLAXTON (Minister of National Defence) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 410, to establish a benevolent fund from army, canteen and other service funds.
Mr. BROOKS:: Will the minister explain the amendments?


Mr. CLAXTON:: The other place has made three amendments, the first in section 3, subsection 2, paragraph (a). Subsection 2 reads:
There shall be credited to the fund all amounts now credited to the following accounts in the consolidated revenue fund:
(a)	The account known as the central trust fund of the army, navy and air force canteens and continued pursuant to an order of the governor in council dated the 18th day of September, 1946, P.C. 68/3910.
The amendment is to add the words "less equities of the Royal Canadian Navy and the Royal Canadian Air Force." That is to take account of the fact that there may be some claim on the part of these two sendees to the funds in question. The second amendment proposed is to section 5, where reference is made to a committee for the Mackenzie river district. It was found that the right name is the "Mackenzie district" and it is proposed to delete the word "river." The third change is made in section 9, subsection 2(b), which now reads:
The board shall be governed by the following principles:
(b)	no grant is to be made by way of relief of want from the fund.
The words "of want" have been struck out as unnecessary. Those are the changes; they are purely a matter of drafting.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.



PRISONS AND REFORMATORIES ACT


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (for the Minister of Justice) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 377, to amend the Prisons and Reformatories Act.
He said: These are purely technical alterations., They will be found on page 776 of Votes and Proceedings. They are as follows:
1.	Page 1, line 30: delete "such" and substitute "the".
2.	Page 1. line 30: after "order" insert "of the Attorney General".
3.	Page 2. line 1: delete "such" and substitute "the".
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City) in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
130. Departmental administration, $183,173.
(Translation):
Mr. PIERRE GAUTHIER (Portneuf):: Mr. Chairman, while the hon. members admit quite readily that the acting Minister of Mines and Resources can meet fully the demands of his numerous duties, I am sure that we all deplore the absence of our very good friend the Hon. Mr. Glen, Minister of Mines and Resources. May I express the hope that Providence will vouchsafe him every possible solace as well as recovery from his present illness.
I have listened most attentively to the speech delivered last night by the hon. member for Spadina (Mr. Croll). While agreeing with him on several points, I must say that I have clearly stated in the past my position with regard to immigration, and if I rise this morning it is not for the purpose of adding much to what I have already said, but rather to reaffirm the stand I took in former debates.
In order to please my hon. friends, I say at once that I shall not take more than a few minutes.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Pierre Gauthier: I have in my hand the speech delivered on May 1, 1947, by the prime minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) where I notice a sentence I fully endorse and which should ever remain in the minds of those who advocate immigration:
The government will seek by legislation, regulation, and vigorous administration, to ensure
Supply-Mines and Resources

the careful selection and permanent settlement of such numbers of immigrants as can advantageously be absorbed in our national economy.


Mr. MICHAUD:: Hear, hear.


Pierre Gauthier: To my mind, that stand is the most logical and worthy of the leader of a national economy like ours. I believe it is the soundest position that could be taken: "such numbers ... as can advantageously be absorbed in our national economy".


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Pierre Gauthier: I have
already said, and I now repeat, that I am not in favour of mass immigration. I admit that a certain movement of people can take place between the various countries over a number of years, but I would not like the government to bring here too many immigrants some of whom will stay on the lands where they will apparently have settled down, while a greater number, perhaps, will take up residence in cities where they will merely increase the number of unemployed and lengthen what is commonly and quite appropriately called the bread-line, should this country have the misfortune of going through a period of unemployment.
I agree with the statement which the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) made not very long ago when he said', in answer to those who believe that we have an unlimited area of tillable soil, that the land awaiting cultivation may not be as extensive as it is claimed to be.


Benoît Michaud: That's right.


Pierre Gauthier: Having carefully considered this important matter of Canadian immigration, it is, to my mind, clearly shown that even though the area of Canada is greater than that of the United States whose population numbers 130,000,000 inhabitants, we cannot state that the tillable land in the country is as extensive as is claimed in certain quarters.
From 1871 to 1937, we admitted a very large number of immigrants. This morning, I added a few figures, and I find that 5,234,235 immigrants have come to Canada. Of that number, a certain percentage remained on the land. Incidentally, I must say that when the Immigration Branch gives instructions to its officials in European countries with reference to the choice of immigrants, it should stress .that they select first candidates who intend to settle on the farm and apply regulations obliging them to remain on the land


Benoît Michaud: Five years.


Pierre Gauthier: Five years, as suggested1 by the hon. member for Resti-gouehe-Madawaska, would not be too long and would allow us to determine whether those who left farms in Europe really intended to settle on the land and1 become bona fide farmers, or whether they planned to remain there only until they could leave to swell the city population.


Benoît Michaud: That's right.


Pierre Gauthier: If we take the trouble of establishing the percentage relating to population in urban and rural centres, we will find that, generally speaking, especially in my province, the advantage seems to be in favour of the cities.


Benoît Michaud: Always.


Pierre Gauthier: According to a survey, there are more people in the cities of the province of Quebec, than in the country. If we want our farmers to supply as much food as possible to the city workers, we must see that the proportion again favours our rural areas.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Pierre Gauthier: That is why, during a debate last year-if I may be permitted to refer to it for a moment-I advocated a programme of reconstruction, comprising the setting up of recreational and educational centres in our rural communities, a programme that should be partly financed by the provinces and partly by the dominion government. Unfortunately, agreement with the provinces, especially Quebec and Ontario, is too slow to come about, so that our rural communities cannot benefit as much as they would wish to from those agreements, and specially from the financial assistance of which they could avail themselves to finance those rural and educational centres and render them far more interesting and attractive, in order to instil into our young people love for the land and for rural communities in general.
Coming back to the question of immigration, I have here a document, which was laid on the table of the house, showing, as I mentioned a while ago, that 5,234,235 people immigrated to Canada between 1871 and 1937. I agree that we Should accept a certain number of immigrants. The Right Hon. the Prime Minister stated on May 1, 1947, that Canada had attempted to alleviate the sufferings of nations that had been sorely tried during the war, especially in Europe. Canada has largely contributed to the alleviation of tht sufferings of people grouped in displaced persons camps, and continues to do so. It should

Supply-Mines and Resources
not be assumed, however, that Canada will do everything single-handed' and without the help of the other nations of the world. I repeat that only a reasonable policy, such as was outlined by the Right Hon. Mr. Mackenzie King in this bouse on May 1, where he stated that we must first ascertain the number of immigrants that our economy can absorb-such a policy is the only one which will prevent us from reverting to the unfortunate condition that prevailed during the last depression, a recurrence of which is always possible, of seeing immigrants who had settled on farms or accepted employment in plants or industrial concerns, swell what we used to call the "bread-line". Therefore, we should not accept any more than our national economy can absorb.
I agree with those who are conversant with the problem of immigration that we could accept a certain number of immigrants, and that a certain natural movement can take place between the various countries of the world in the course of years. Some are complaining about the loss of talented young people and a certain number are evidently leaving Canada for the United States.
I notice that every time the subject of immigration is discussed and particularly when mention is made of the fact that we need a greater number of British immigrants, nobody ever stops to consider the great economic difficulties which are experienced by the United Kingdom at the present time. Under the title "Friday Forum-Europe offers good immigrants", here is what Mr. M. J. Heffernan wrote in the Montreal Gazette of July 11th, 1947:
(Text):
Europe Offers Good Immigrants
The fundamental fact is that Canada is losing several thousands of her most skilled farmers and tens of thousands of her trained youth. If the dominion is not to grow anaemic new blood must be had, and the source is immigration.
(Translation):
These people never seem to think that even without immigration-and I speak for my own province-we may place our hopes in the large families which are the pride of Canadian motherhood. Even without mass immigration, we may rest assure that the natural growth of population will give us the men to sow our land with wheat, so that the stems, rustling softy in the breeze, may sing of a people's hope to live in spite of everything.


Benoît Michaud: Hear, hear.


Pierre Gauthier: Mr. Heffernan continues-
(Text):
For the thousands who are leaving Canada there are millions in Europe eager to come, anxious to escape from the miseries of war, and willing to build up, where Canadians will give them the chance, the lives they have snatched from slave labour and internment camps.
(Translation):
Counter arguments are often put forward. When -the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Dionne) dared to bring a few Polish girls to Canada to work at his plant, many unfortunate things were said in this house. Some went so far as to accuse -the hon. member for Beauce of exploiting what is called "slave labour" in Europe. As I was saying before I started quoting this report, we are prone to forget the problems of British economy. It seems to me that we are rendering poor service to the United Kingdom when we persist in bringing to Canada, by hundreds of thousands-the quota has been set at 600,000 -farmers and workers who are absolutely needed in Great Britain at this time for the reconstruction and the rehabilitation of the British Isles.


Benoît Michaud: Hear, hear.


Pierre Gauthier: I have here the June 24 issue of the magazine World Report. I find in it a picture showing a poster held by English workers during a demonstration. This poster reads:
(Text):
We need 40,000 more miners in the United Kingdom. We need 75,000 more textile workers in the United Kingdom. We need 40,000 more farm workers.
They need these in the United Kingdom and we are asking them to send hundreds of thousands of immigrants to Canada. We are asking them to do that at a time when they need so much farm help, so many textile workers and so many coal miners?
(Translation):
I believe there is a much more reasonable and patriotic way of helping the United Kingdom than by asking it to pinch and scrape in order that our population be increased. Besides, I would request my hon. friends, supporters of mass immigration, to cast a sympathetic eye on the United Kingdom which, unfortunately, cannot rely on natural population increase, while we can count on that factor, especially in the province of Quebec and even in the other provinces.


Benoît Michaud: Hear, hear!

Supply-Mines and Resources


Pierre Gauthier: I claim that it is a great pity to request it to make an excessive effort and force it, as the hon. member for Spadina (Mr. Croll) said last night, to import workers from other European countries in an effort to make up for the century-old inadequacy of the birth rate and the scarcity of workers which the very able socialist government is attempting to put to work in the British Isles. It seems to me that the fact of demanding that the present situation of Canada be taken into account, of asking who is now doing more than his share, who has done more than his share during the war, who. has, in spite of the three, four or five great powers, joined the council of nations and of insisting that our country be not asked to do more than the others, is not acting as a bad Canadian.
When British immigrants are requested, I hope I shall not sound a flat note in asking that consideration be given to the sons of old France and intrepid Belgium who wish to come to Canada to live among those they consider almost as brothers.


Benoît Michaud: Hear, hear!


Pierre Gauthier: Mr. Speaker, I wished to restate very clearly my precise attitude on this most ticklish and complex matter of immigration.
I repeat that my words are not to be construed as meaning that I favour closing our frontiers to all immigration. Every time I speak on national problems in this house, I endeavour to express . views that are as essentially Canadian as possible. I do not wish to close to those who have faith in the future of Canada a door which they would throw wide open, but I want those who advocate immigration, to realize that our economy so badly shaken up by the war must not be jeopardized and that, in the near future, we may have to support people who will claim jobs from us, a larger number of whom, possibly, will be among those who have entered our country more or less recently rather than among those whose ancestors have lived here for years and even centuries.
(Text):
Mr. J. E. MATTHEWS .(Brandon): I want to offer a few remarks in connection with these estimates, and I may as well do so now as under the item to which it more fittingly belongs, that for national parks and historic sites. I want to urge particularly that funds be made available from somewhere for the further development this year of our international peace garden at Manitoba and in North Dakota. I can easily understand that there is not at the moment a very live IMr. Michaud.]
interest in this parliament concerning that project. It was one of those undertakings which were laid aside during the war; then when the war ended it was found that to a large extent a new generation of parliamentarians occupied seats in this chamber, and few of them knew anything about the aims and work of this organization, officially known as International Peace Garden Incorporated.
I am very sorry that the Minister of Mines and Resources is not in his place in the chamber in these days, and I am sure that one and all are hoping that the rest he is now enjoying may bring him back to a complete restoration of health. We are fortunate, however, that his duties are being undertaken by a gentleman who is also one of broad outlook and of undoubted capacity. For these reasons, Mr. Chairman, and because the Canadian government is in honour bound committed to the furtherance of this undertaking, I desire as a matter of information to place on the record a brief, but I trust a clear, resume of the garden's background. I should emphasize that which is already suggested, that it is not a municipal, a provincial or even a national undertaking; it is international in every sense of the word. The seed was sown away back in 1929 when an international convention of the Gardeners Association of North America was held in Toronto, the first time that important association had ever met in Canada. At that convention the idea of a peace garden was submitted by the late Henry J. Moore of Islington, Ontario. Mr. Moore, as some hon. members are aware, was not an amateur gardener but a professional one of wide repute, a writer of recognized ability and a valued member of the Royal Horticultural Society of London, England. He was a man whose ability, vision, and experience were widely recognized. I am under the impression that he served for many years as horticultural expert for the Ontario government. In an inspiring address at the Toronto convention Mr. Moore won his way into the hearts of all his hearers as he suggested the laying out of a magnificent garden at some point on the international line as a beautiful and living memorial to everlasting peace, and an appealing symbol of good will between our two nations. Reading at this time, eighteen, years after it was given, a summary of Mr.. Moore's oration, for such I may call it, one cannot fail to be impressed by the similarity of thought, the expression of idealism and the cogency of appeal existing between that speech and the one delivered in this house a few weeks ago by President Truman.

Supply-Mines and Resources
Mr. Moore in the course of his Toronto speech made this announcement :
The United States ambassador to Canada, Hon. William Phillips, the highest representative of the American government, and the Governor General of Canada, Lord Willingdon, the direct representative of the King and of Great Britain, have in letters with the words of statesmen and of Christian gentlemen endorsed the project. The Prime Minister of Canada, the Hon. William Lyon Mackenzie King kindly sent a representative to this meeting. The Hon. George S. Henry, a minister of the Ontario government, is present. The Hon. John S. Martin, Minister of Agriculture of Ontario, and the Hon. William Motherwell of the dominion government are in accord with the project. What better endor-sation is possible?
Mr. Moore's proposal was carried unanimously and with wide acclaim, so wide that in a short time no less than fifty-six national, state and provincial organizations forwarded pledges of their support. These pledges, many of which came from the middle west and southern states, were sponsored by such organizations as the Canadian and American Red Cross societies, the Women's Federal Institute of Canada; the Imperial Order, Daughters of the Empire, both in Canada and in the United States; the Canadian business and professional women's club, the Manitoba and North Dakota chapter of the order of the Eastern Star and came from many western Canadian municipal- ^ ities, boards of trade, school boards and even from many of the scholars themselves. You will therefore realize that a far-flung interest had arisen which, as I have said, waned temporarily owing to the demands of war.
Then followed the important task of translating the will of that Toronto convention into action. A strong international committee was appointed consisting of the following: Joseph E. Atkinson; E. W. Beatty; Mrs. George Black; C. E. Burden; Albert C. Burrage; Rev.
S.	Parkes Cadman, D.D.; Hon. Martin L. Davey; Hon. Athanase David; Henry W. Deforest; T. W. Duggan; Pierre S. DuPont; Lady Eaton; Mrs. Henry Ford; Right Rev. James E. Freeman, D.D.; Right Rev. William
T.	Gunn, D.D.; Mrs. W. J. Hanna; T. A.
Havemeyer; Com. James Hay, O.B.E.; Hon. Arthur M. Hyde; Mrs. William A. Lockwood; Hon. Frank 0. Lowden; E. B. Luke; Hon. John S. Martin; Most Rev. S. P. Matheson,
D.D.,	L.L.D.,	D.C.L.; Miss Marion H.
McClench; Rev. R. R. McKay, B.A.; Hon. D.
G. McKenzie; Most Rev. Neil McNeil, D.D.; Hon. William R. Motherwell; Adolph Ochs; Hon. William Phillips; Miss Ethel T. Raymond; Right Rev. J. A. Richardson, D.D.; Prof. Robertson; Col. Hugh A. Rose; Mile. Idola Saint Jean; Mrs John F. Sippel; C. F.
83166-346i
Sise; Hon. Alfred E. Smith; L. S. Taber; Sir Henry W. Thornton, KJB.E.; W. V Udall; Senator Thomas J. Walsh; Mrs. J. A. Wilson; Most Rev. Clare L. Worrell, M.A., DD., D.C.L.; Owen D. Young.
Read that list, Mr. Chairman, and you will find the names of some of the most prominent people on this continent, although a few of them have now passed on. There are such citizens as the late President Beatty, Sir Henry Thornton, Hon. Alfred E. Smith of New York, Lady Eaton, Mrs. Henry Ford and our own respected and beloved Mrs. George Black of the Yukon. These and a host of others are not the type of citizens to lend their names to any proposals which are unworthy and have no appeal.
This general committee having been chosen, no time was lost in appointing a committee to select a site, and no restriction was imposed upon that committee geographically or otherwise. If you want to grasp the idea of internationalism, listen to the names of those who composed that site committee: H. J. Moore of Toronto, Joseph Dunlop of South Euclid, Ohio, Robert P. Brydon of Cleveland, Ohio. Many sites were inspected along the boundary, but eventually one was unanimously chosen in the Turtle mountains, a range of hills situated astride the boundary between Manitoba and North Dakota. Those hills, at one time-heavily timbered, rise to a height of 2,500 feet-above sea level. They extend forty-five miles east and west and twenty miles north and south. They were named by the Indians centuries before the coming of the white man. At a later meeting of those interested, held not in Canada but at Asbury Park, New Jersey, on September 17, 1931, the Turtle-mountain site received unanimous endorsation. The area of the garden consists of 2,340 acres, 1,452 acres in Canada, donated by the Manitoba government, and 888 acres on the United States side, donated partly by Washington and partly by the state of North Dakota. The selection of this site was greatly facilitated by the Hon. D. G. McKenzie, at that time Minister of Mines and Natural Resources in the Manitoba government, who on behalf of that government offered to donate the generous acreage I have just stated. Over much of this area there is a profusion of flowered foliage and an abundance of wild life, particularly bird life. Potentially it is one of those rare locations where the harmony and colour of the flowers symbolize that harmony of ideals which has enabled two great peoples to live side by side in friendship and understanding for almost one hundred and fifty years.
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It is interesting to recall a paragraph of the speech from the throne at the opening of the Manitoba legislature on February 29, 1932, under the leadership of Hon. John Bracken, always an ardent supporter of the garden:
A memorable event of the past year is the provision made for the peace garden in the Turtle mountain region of Manitoba and North Dakota. This international project ought to have a prominent place in the peace *chronicles of the present era when every thinking person in the world is compelled to realize that one of the most_ important questions facing our civilization is that of world peace, friendship, and cooperation.
I recall also an editorial of that time in the Winnipeg Tribune, from which I quote:
It is a worthy, a splendid project, and one that has the enthusiastic approval not only of the people of Manitoba and Western Canada, but of other millions in both countries... Some of the most magnificent monuments in the world have been erected to commemorate lost causes, vanished glories and ruined hopes. A peace garden, let us hope, will symbolize in its own living beauty, ever more cordial relations between the two countries.
I was privileged, Mr. Chairman, in having been one of almost 50,000 persons who were present at the official opening of that garden on July 24, 1932. People were assembled there from great distances in the central west, Americans and Canadians, many of whom not so long before had lost loved ones on the battlefields of Europe. But it mattered not whether American or Canadian, we were there as one people, our hearts and minds bent on one purpose. I have never forgotten the hush that prevailed over that great .multitude during the unveiling of a huge cairn of native stone erected right astride the boundary line. Upon that cairn was a bronze plaque bearing this inscription:	"To God in His Glory we two
nations dedicate this garden and pledge ourselves that as 'long as men shall live we will not take up arms against one another."
Those seeds of international fidelity, sown years ago, came to early fruition when only seven years later our two nations found themselves fighting side by side in the most destructive war in all history. For us to have been fighting on opposite sides is simply unthinkable.
Even prior to this official opening elaborate plans of development had been prepared. These plans were approved-and I want you to note this-by the natural parks service of the United States and by the national parks bureau of Canada. The project was so designed that the total area controlled by International Peace Garden Incorporated will form one harmonious unit. These approved plans have already been developed to a considerable *extent, including landscaping, permanent fenc-

ing, highway building and the opening of branch roads in the park area. However, during the war only 'maintenance work was carried on on the Canadian side by the Manitoba government. The time has now arrived when the work already done can be conserved only by hurrying more of those plans to completion. This further work is the responsibility of the federal government. Why do I make that statement? First, because the whole proposal is international in its aspect; also because the dominion government has already expended through the province of Manitoba approximately $52,000, and has supplemented this by substantial supplies of material to the United States side from Riding Mountain national park.
The United States section was developed very largely by the civilian conservation corps previous to Pearl Harbor, and a customs and immigration station is to be erected at a cost of $60,000, while the state of North Dakota has appropriated more than $30,000 for the development of the United States section. I have to confess that up to date there has been much more development on the United States side than on the Canadian. After a standstill during the war I understand the United States directors have recently made representations to the United States government for the early resumption of financial assistance, which will no doubt be granted.
May I make clear the fact that the international peace garden is incorporated under the laws of Manitoba and North Dakota, and has been recognized by both Canadian and United States governments. By that recognition Canada has given her approval, which, as I said, prior to the outbreak of the war was backed by repeated contributions. I am confident that our American friends will find Canada will not break faith in her continued support of this project. Henry J. Moore, that great Canadian, has passed to his reward. Strangely enough his death took place on September 21, 1946, the day of the last annual meeting of the association he had founded and always held so dear. He and many other enthusiastic sponsors of the plan have thrown the torch to younger hands, and I want to pay tribute to the manner in which the present directors have carried on from year to year without a dollar of remuneration, simply as a labour of love and out of allegiance to a great ideal; carried on with patience and understanding in the face of many difficulties. Seven of the present directors are Americans from various states, while eight are Canadians from different parts of western Canada. I know most of those fifteen directors,

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and they are citizens of the highest type. Again I should like to place the names of those directors on Hansard:
Chairman of board-F. R. Longworth, Brandon, Manitoba
Honorary President-W. V. Udall, Boisse-vain, Manitoba
President-W. M. Smart, Minot, N.D.
First Vice-President-M. S. Colquhoun, Delo-raine, Manitoba
Second Vice-President-W. P. Campbell, Dunseith, N.D.
Secretary-John Stormon, Rolla, N.D.
Assistant Secretary-E. J. Johnson, Boisse-vain, Manitoba
Treasurer-Judge A. G. Buckingham, Brandon. Manitoba
Directors-D. G. McKenzie, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Mrs. Mary Allen, Moose Jaw, Sask.; Russell Beid, Bismarck, N.D.; W. R. Leslie, Morden. Manitoba; Henry Sunderland, Dun-seith, N.D.; Hon. Errick Willis, Winnipeg, Manitoba: John Barnett, Glen Head, N.Y.; D. J. Creighton, Convent, N.J.
Since this project, so far as the federal government is concerned, has been a forgotten responsibility since 1940, I want t.o go on record as having now placed before the dominion parliament a resume of this idealistic undertaking, and to make the request, that in preparing the estimates for succeeding years reasonably substantial amounts be included definitely for that work. Other memorials that we may call peace memorials have been erected in past years at great expense between the nations of Canada and the United States, such as the peace bridge between Fort Erie and Buffalo, which was built at a cost of some
85.000,000, the Ambassador bridge between Windsor and Detroit, the bridge between Sarnia and Port Huron and the Ivy Lea bridge at the Thousand Islands. They are all large and ambitious undertakings, and in addition to serving commercial purposes they constitute a good example of the good neighbour policy. But let me point out that all these are in Ontario and relatively only a few miles apart. May I suggest further that there are provinces other than Ontario, and states other than New York, where the citizens desire to give some expression of the fact that they too live in equality and mutual respect. As far as I can recall this garden is the only peace memorial along the international boundary, from the bridges I have mentioned to the Pacific coast, a distance of over two thousand miles. Its further development on the part of Canada will express our practical reaction to the recent statement of President Truman in this chamber:
We intend to cooperate actively and loyally with all who honestly seek, as we do, to build a better world in which mankind can live in peace and prosperity. We count Canada in the forefront of those who share these objectives and ideals. With such friends we face the future unafraid.
Someone will say this is simply another call for more expenditure. That may be, but there are some expenditures, even governmental, that prove to be good investments. That is Canada's experience in regard to the tourist industry. Our revenue from that source in 1946 amounted to the handsome sum of $227,000,000. I am confident that in the next few years a tremendous expansion is possible in that industry. Therefore I desire to point out that the international peace garden is located on perhaps the most important highway connecting central United States and central Canada. Someone has called it the main street of America, coming as it does directly from central America, Mexico and the central states and entering Canada via the peace garden, thence continuing northward almost in a direct line to Riding Mountain national park, on to The Pas, soon to Churchill and perhaps in time to the shores of Hudson Bay, at all events going through vast areas of wild and primitive scenery in our great northwest. Tourist development in Canada is simply astounding in its possibilities. I may mention Riding Mountain national park as an illustration. It was practically unknown a few years ago but led every national pairk in Canada with the exception of one in the number of visitors last year, and without exception led every park in the number of automobiles entering the park area in 1946. People went there in droves from every state in the union and every province in Canada. Most of us know something of the excellence and wide circulation of the Christian Science Monitor, which is published in the United States. I can assure you, Mr. Chairman, that there has been no collusion in this matter; but the reading room received this morning- and word was passed on to me-the latest issue of that publication, which contains almost a full page illustrative of Riding Mountain national park. I would advise every hon member of this house to read this article and look at the illustrations, so that, as far as the tourist industry is concerned, we may come to see ourselves as others see us.
More and more will United States tourists be drawn northward by the magnetic attraction of our natural parks. We all know how lasting are first impressions, whether favourable 'or unfavourable. Therefore when these tourists reach the front door of Canada we want them to be greeted, not by frowning fort nor silent sentry, but by a smiling garden symbolic of a peace so permanent that, like "the glory of the garden it shall never pass away".

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May I emphasize in conclusion the intriguing fact that instead of being in the far east or in the distant west this garden is located actually within thirty miles of the exact centre of the North American continent. Surely that is a fitting place for a tall and commanding peace tower, proclaiming to the world the friendship between our two nations. I suggest further that the time may come, perhaps sooner than we think, when in that parklike garden in that unique centre of an expansive continent, there may be erected a joint statue of our two national war leaders, President Roosevelt and Prime Minister King who, having given superb leadership in the days of peace, yet rose to greatest heights in the hour of their country's greatest danger.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: Just before the hon. member resumes his seat I should like to ask him a question. I wonder if it has been brought to his attention that the Waterton Lakes national park in southwestern Alberta was made an international peace park several years ago. That really should go on record in modification of what the hon. member has said.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The debate we have had this morning on this department lends force to what I wish to say at this point. The Department of Mines and Resources has now become a receptacle for various tag ends of government business. It deals with Indian affairs, national parks, immigration, mines and resources and, apparently, national memorials. I want to make a plea to the minister, and since he is a practical man I feel he will agree, that this department should be what it says it is; that is, a department of mines and resources. This morning we have had a discussion on immigration, national parks and national memorials, and as I see it the debate on the minister's estimates will cover a large and varied number of unrelated subjects. Next to agriculture the development of the natural resources of this country should be the most productive endeavour of any government. I am prepared to say that within a very few years production from our natural resources, our mines and forests, will be of greater value to this country than agriculture owing to the growing importance of mineral production. I would ask the government to consider during the recess removing Indian affairs and immigration from the Department of Mines and Resources. As we have seen here today, immigration should be a matter for the Secretary of State or for some other department-I suggest the Secretary of State,

who deals with naturalization. As we have seen this morning, it is a subject in which both races in Canada are interested. It is a subject which interests the whole of Canada. It may be suggested that it calls for a separate department. Certainly it is not an appropriate subject for the consideration of the Minister of Mines and Resources, who should be a practical man, preferably an engineer.
I come now to Indian affairs, and here again I suggest that the Secretary of State's department is the proper one to take over the Indian Affairs branch.	By no stretch of the
imagination can Indian affairs be considered as having anything to do with mines and resources. The Indian affairs committee has met this session, as it did last session, and if I am correct it has produced, apart from the veterans affaire committee, the most voluminous report that has ever been brought down in any parliament in Canada. The report covers many thousands of pages of evidence. For the Minister of Mines and Resources to have to concern himself with such voluminous reports is not in the best interests of the country.
This brings me to the complaint I have about the whole policy of this government and the other governments with regard to mines and resources. I am not going to go into fiscal policies or anything of the kind, but it has been shown that the money spent by the government on the development of our mines, on geological surveys, on laboratories, has been a mere fraction of one per cent of the total federal budget. If we are ever to have a balanced economy as between agriculture on the one hand and mining and forests on the other, as between imports and exports, we shall have to do far more than we have done in the direction of developing our mines.
The majority of the people do not realize what a serious situation confronts the mining industry today, particularly gold mining. Prices and costs have risen and are still rising steadily. The product has been artificially reduced in price by government action, and reduced to a very serious degree.
Last week the International Nickel Company agreed to a further increase of 13% cents an hour to its workers. We have reached this state in Canada today, that if that increase is to be imposed on the gold mines also it will be the death knell of gold mining in this country. The industry- at the present time is just getting by. There may be flurries in the market; expansive statements may be, made by certain people in the industry and by promoters, but the basic -thing is that the cost of producing an ounce of gold is steadily

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rising whereas the price received for an ounce of gold has -been artificially reduced. When these two meet, as they are nearly doing now, then mining ends. I shall have something to say about that on the estimates of the Minister of Finance, but since this is an administration item I take this occasion to say that it is imperative that the Department of Mines and Resources should be what it professes to be, a department dealing with the development. of mines and the natural resources of the country. If it is not, if it is, as I have said, the national w'aste paper basket into which every unwanted and difficult problem is thrown, then we shall have a headless organization which will have no direction and which will be incapable of functioning efficiently. One has only to consider the fact. I have mentioned, that a mere fraction of one per cent of the federal budget is spent on the development of natural resources.
I do not know whether he is the new minister, but the right hon. gentleman who is responsible for the department- at the present time, an industrialist, a man who understands chains of command and who understands that to work efficiently a department must deal with one or two basic subjects, must realize that the main function of his department must not get sidetracked. I do hope that in the recess the reorganization of the Department of Mines and Resources will be undertaken. In this I am supported by the Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, whose brief several years ago was one of the most cogent advocacies of the policy I now recommend to the minister.


Mr. ANTHONY HLYNKA (Vegreville):: It is regrettable that owing to the government's inadequate immigration policy so many debates have been forced on the house on the subject of immigration. During the last two years I myself have spoken on this subject no fewer than six times and with the present inadequate immigration provisions my conscience would not be clear if I did not say something on this item today.
In the July 8 issue of the Toronto Daily Star I find a report to the effect that the Deputy Minister of Mines and Resources, Dr. H. L. Keenleyside, had stated:
The Canadian seeking to have h-is displaced acquaintance brought to Canada need not be a relative but must accept responsibility for the immigrant.
And farther down:
He said it was a matter of government policy whether further displaced persons would be accepted immediately.
It was believed, however, that further displaced persons would be allowed entry prior
to Canada's agreement with the intergovernmental committee on refugees to take a quota yet to be agreed upon.
Such statements appearing in the press have confused the people, and many of them have been writing to me asking whether an order in council has been passed providing for the admission to Canada of persons other than relatives. So far I have not seen an order in council to that effect, and I assume that the statement made some time ago by the Minister of Mines and Resources contained the complete provisions so far as immigration is concerned. I understand that only the following persons can be brought into Canada from displaced persons camps:
1.	An agriculturist having sufficient means to farm in Canada.
2.	An agriculturist entering Canada to farm, when destined to a father, father-in-law, son, son-in-law, brother, brother-in-law, uncle or nephew engaged in agriculture as his principal occupation, who is in a position to receive such immigrant and establish him on a farm.
3.	A farm labourer entering Canada to engage in assured farm employment.
4.	A person experienced in mining, lumbering or logging, entering Canada to engage in assured employment in any one of such industries.
5.	The husband or wife, the son, the daughter, the brother or sister together with husband or wife and unmarried children, if any; the father or mother, the orphan nephew or niece under 21 years of age of any person legally resident in Canada who is in a position to receive and care for such relatives. The term "orphan" used in this clause means a child bereaved of both parents.
6.	A person entering Canada for the purpose of marriage to a legal resident thereof, provided that the prospective husband is able to maintain his intended wife.
When the minister speaks I should like him to state whether the government has passed any order in council extending the provisions which I have placed on the record. I should like to know also the present immigration provisions so far as displaced persons and refugees are concerned. We should have a clarification of the government's immigration policy, because I hope we shall all be going home soon and our constituents will be asking for information. I should be grateful if the minister would give us the required information.
Before proceeding with the few remarks I wanted to make I should like to pay a tribute to the senate committee on immigra-
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tion and labour for the splendid1 work it has done in connection with immigration during the past two sessions. That committee has done more for immigration than any other body in the way of arousing public opinion and prodding the government to adopt the .measures which it has adopted so far. I am somewhat disturbed when I read that the United States of America is considering admitting 400,000 displaced persons and refugees; that the United Kingdom has taken a large number and is taking many more; that Argentina is picking the cream of the material available; that Brasil has accepted quite a number and is continuing to take more, and that Australia has also taken quite a number and is still taking more-what about Canada?
The. arguments used by the immigration authorities are that there are no transportation facilities available. All who have had cases referred to them by their constituents and people in other parts of Canada know that very few immigrants can qualify under the present regulations. It seems to me the time has come when we should change the controls and permit a number of intellectuals to come in.
The government seems to be afraid of people with brains; all they are interested in is people with muscle. If muscle is all we want, we can bring in a bunch of horses, but of course horses would not pay taxes and they could not vote and that would be a disadvantage. If we are interested only in physical strength and not in individuals as such, then the government should bring in horses. I know a gentleman in Sudbury who is well off financially. He has two or three cousins in displaced persons camps in Europe and he wants to bring them to Canada. He has bought two or three quarters of land and has given up the bakery business in which he was engaged. He is willing to provide any guarantee the government wants in order to permit him to bring these people in. What is the answer? "We are sorry, but your cousins are, first, a newspaper man and not a farmer and therefore he does not qualify and, second, a lawyer."


Mr. WARREN:: May I ask a question?


Anthony Hlynka: The hon. gentleman can ask his question when I get through.


The CHAIRMAN:: The hon. member for Vegreville has the floor and he cannot be interrupted without his permission.


Anthony Hlynka: We are in committee, and if the hon. gentleman wishes to ask me any

questions later I shall be only too glad to answer them. I have in the neighbourhood of 2,000 applications from people all over Canada for assistance to bring in relatives. These people cannot qualify because one happens to be a newspaper man, another happens to be a lawyer, a third happens to be an engineer and so on. Most of these intellectuals are willing to work on farms; that is what they want to do when they arrive here. They do not want to pursue their professions which they followed before the war because many of them at least have not a sufficiently good command of the English language. Surely, Mr. Chairman, if these men want to come in, and they are with us in every sense and are the best material we can get, we should let them come in.
I have always pleaded for displaced persons and refugees regardless of their racial origin, but I wish to place on the record a special plea for sympathetic consideration for persons of Ukrainian origin. On checking over a table which was presented by Mr. Jolliffe, the director of immigration, on Wednesday, April 30, 1947, I find that among those admitted to Canada-these are European, not British immigrants-there were 216 Czechoslovakians, 844 Germans, 627 Poles, 28 Roumanians, 23 Russians, and so on down the list, but only one Ukrainian. I should like the minister to tell me why this discrimination existed. Is it because they feel the people of Ukrainian origin have not stood by them well enough in the past? I must say that they did. People of Ukrainian origin have supported the party in power today more than any other party in Canada, and yet this is the consideration they get- only one Ukrainian admitted in the twelve months of 1946.


Humphrey Mitchell: Would not most of the Poles be Ukrainians?


Anthony Hlynka: A few of them were, but the minister could probably count on the fingers of his two hands all the Ukrainians who came to this country in 1946. I know practically every one of them. The urgency of the situation is this. I have in my hand a table issued by G-5 division, of the military government in the United States zone of Germany, and I would appreciate it if the committee would be kind enough to allow me to have this inserted on Hansard.


William Ross Macdonald: Has the hon. member unanimous consent?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


Anthony Hlynka: The table is as follows:

DISPLACED PERSONS U.S. ZONE, GERMANY AS OF 15 December, 1946
G-5 DIVISION Displaced Persons Branch
26 December, 1946
oo	Note.-The information indicated below was received from UNRRA and Military Sources.



I. UNITED NATION DISPLACED PERSONS

[Stage Direction]
Nationality	On Hand	Repatriated	Resettled	Total	Per cent Repatriated	Per cent ResettledIn Camp	Out of Camp	Total	From 1 Dec. to 15 Dec.	Total to Date	From 1 Dec. to 15 Dec.	Total to Date	Belgian and Liixembourger	
Czech	
Estonian	53 648 14,945 68 44,787 30,547 17 116,144* 8,518 4,833 11,736 22,461 126,980	1,802 6,662 3,282 3,179 6,548 5,531 259 39,889 11,752 12,151 13,159 166,068 27,755	1,855 7,310 18,227 3,247 51,335 36,078 276 156,033 20,270 16,984 24,895 38,529 154,735	i 162	149,505 38,574 465 592,641 1,357 238 2,925 322,479 1,042,976 67,242	17 34 59 31 75 73 2 1,004	151,377 45,918 18,751 595,919 52,767 36,389 3,203 479,516 1,063,246 84,297 25,115 295,308 161,443	98-	8 84-0 2-5 99-	4 2-6 [DOT]7 91-3 67-3 98-1 79-8	[DOT]Oil *074 [DOT]315 [DOT]005 [DOT]142 [DOT]201 [DOT]062 *209French	Latvian	Lithuanian	Norwegian	Polish	5,623	Russian	Y ugoslav	71 220 1,543 6,708	[DOT]084 [DOT]876 [DOT]526 416Stateless	Others and unclassified	1	255,236	99	86-4	Total	381,737	148,037	529,774	5,787	2,473,638	99	9,837	3,013,249	82-1	[DOT] 326
Included in this figure is 51,640 Polish Ukrainians.
At present there are 32,500 persons in civilian guard units and labour service companies not reported in the above figures for the U.S. Zone Germany There are, in addition, 3,000 such persons in similar units under Western Base Section.
[Stage Direction]
k!

[Stage Direction]
Austrians		95 203	17,490 5,247	17,585 5,450	715	14,762f 343,893		55 2	32,402 349,345	45-6 98-4	[DOT]17 [DOT]0006
Italians											
Total											
	298	22,737	23,035	715	358,655		57	381,747	94-0	[DOT]0015
t Total is from July 1, 1946. Previous figures not available.

[Stage Direction]
Bulgarian	28 112 257	1,341 21,032 5,795	1,369 21,144 6,052	520 136,785 9,401	1 13 3	1,890 157,942 15,456	27-5 86-6 60-8	[DOT]053 [DOT]008 [DOT]019Hungarian	
Roumanian	2,447	Total	
Grand Total	397	28,168	28,565	2,447	146,706	17	175,288	83-7	[DOT]01382,432	198,942	581,374	8,949	2,978,999	99	9,911	3,570,284	83-4	[DOT]278
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Humphrey Mitchell: That is only in the
United States zone, not the British.


Anthony Hlynka: That is true, but travelling in Europe I found the situation was similar in all the zones, British and French, except the Soviet zone, about which we know less.
I should like to draw the attention of the committee to a few figures in the. table. Of those repatriated from the end of the war to December 15, 1946, only 2'5 per cent of Estonians were repatriated back to their homeland, which is now controlled by the Soviets; Latvians, 2-6 per cent; Lithuanians, -7 per cent-not even one out of a hundred was repatriated. Now I come to Poles. Hon. members will find a footnote in the table which says that of the 116,144 Poles in camp, 51,640 are Polish Ukrainians, which simply means Ukrainians, but the Poles held that territory after the first great war and prior to the second great war. What are the figures there? Remember that the majority of these people called Polish are Ukrainians; 67-3 per cent of them were repatriated by various means, including force. Now I come to Russians, which largely means Ukrainians who were under the Soviet union prior to September 1, 1939. There were 98-1 per cent of them repatriated.
I come to Yugoslavs, of whom 79'8 per cent were repatriated; stateless, none; others and unclaimed, 86-i per cent; Jews, no per cent. I claim that on the basis of these figures those against whom such tremendous force was applied to repatriate them, the Ukrainians, should be given the preference in admittance to Canada. The reason is that under the Yalta agreement between Britain, the United States and the Soviet union it was agreed that persons who resided in territories held by Soviets prior to September 1, 1939, should be repatriated to the Soviet union without regard to their personal wishes and by force if necessary. That applies chiefly to Ukrainians. Take, for instance, a Ukrainian who is a Ukrainian and not a Russian, and who has never been a communist, but resided in the part of the Ukraine that prior to the war was held by the Soviet union. Perhaps he expressed himself against communism and was imprisoned, or he may just have returned from a prison camp in Siberia and now finds himself in a displaced persons camp. What happens? The British and United States authorities say: We must repatriate you-you must go back to your country. That means death or the concentration camp-nothing else.
I appreciate the efforts of this government, particularly of the Minister of National Health

and Welfare for his stand on this question before the united nations. This world is supposed to be civilized, and when people say that they want to remain Christians and democrats, that they want to cling to the western world, we should not say to them: Your crime is that you are against communism and therefore you must go back under the Soviets.
I have no time to review the conditions under which these people have been and still are being repatriated. I am sorry to have to say this but there is one man in the United States, a former mayor of New York, Mr. LaGuardia, for whom not one tear will be shed by the displaced persons when he passes away because he favoured men retaining positions in displaced persons camps who were definitely pro-communist. Many who showed any consideration for displaced persons were put out. In this day and age, when we claim to have such high ideals about humanity and use all the high sounding words, we should review our own conscience and see whether we can improve on what we have been doing. Time does not allow me to put on the record before the noon recess everything that I have to say but I pointed out at the outset that the government offers as an excuse that there are no transportation facilities available. That is fine; I recognize the problem to a certain extent, but let me point out this to the committee. In the Daily Tribune of Toronto of June 24, 1947, a communist publication, I read this announcement on page 7:
One hundred and ten Canadians going to youth fete in Prague.
Over thirty members of the national federation of labor youth will attend the world youth festival at Prague, Czechoslovakia, next month, it was announced here to-day by federation officials.
Thirty members will come from all parts of Canada and will represent trade unions, cultural organizations from many language groups, and progressive youth community clubs.
The N.F.L.Y. delegation will be part of a 110-strong Canadian delegation from a large number of organizations being sent under the auspices of the Canadian committee of the world federation of democratic youth. It will be the largest single delegation ever to leave Canada for the international gathering in Europe.
Following their participation in the festival, the N.F.L.Y. delegation will proceed to Yugoslavia where they will work for two weeks on the Samaic-Sarajevo youth railway as their contribution to the rebuilding of war-torn Europe and the promotion _ of friendship between the youth of Yugoslavia and Canada.
Over 80,000 youth have volunteered to work on the railway this summer. They will be

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working without pay to complete the thirty-mile project wiith the help of youth volunteer workers from all over the world.
Highlight of their stay in Yugoslavia will be the presentation of a pledge of friendship, signed by over 10,000 Canadians who have contributed well over $1,000 to buy sports equipment for the youth who are working on the railway. The pledges and the equipment will be presented in August.
I ask you, Mr. Chairman, has the immigration branch or the Department of External Affairs considered the problem of transportation? If not all, the majority of these one hundred and ten Canadians are communists going across the sea to get a little more training in their propaganda activities. Why did not the government say to these young people: You must understand that human lives are involved in this matter of transportation and you must be satisfied with ten delegates?
I understand that the Canadian government cannot refuse to grant permission to these people to go because we are a democratic country, and we should be fair and all that; but when the communists themselves in their newspaper state that this is the largest delegation that has ever left Canada to attend an international conference or festival, I say to you, Mr. Chairman, that there is no excuse. It simply means that the government did not give consideration to the fact that other people who today find themselves in Europe need to be saved because of tuberculosis and other illnesses, because of lack of food and so on. There is no excuse for having allowed these people to go over.
Two or three minutes remain before one o'clock, and I should like to read one or two other statements in this regard to complete the record. In the Daily Tribune of Toronto of June 28, 1947, on page 16 I find the following:
Forty Montreal Youths Leave for Prague
Montreal, June 27.-The largest Quebec youth delegation ever to leave Canada for an international gathering will board the S.S. Waterman here to-morrow bound for the world youth festival in Prague.
Forty young people from this province- French. English, Jewish, Ukrainian, Chinese and others-will join the 110-strong national delegation to "demonstrate their desire for international friendship and peace."
The Montreal youth coordinating committee which is sponsoring the festiyal locally said that delegates will take part in cultural and sports events as well as "informal discussions on youth problems." They will also join youth reconstruction brigades.
It is estimated that approximately 50,000 young people from sixty-five countries will take part in the festival.
83166-347i
This statement appeared in the same issue of the Daily Tribune of Toronto on June 28, 1947, at page 2:
Young Canucks Off to Prague From yesterday's late edition
Thirty representatives of the National Federation of Labor youth left Toronto last night on the first lap of a journey to Prague.
The representatives are part of a delegation of one hundred and ten Canadians to the world youth festival to be held in Prague from July 20 to August 17.
At the conclusion of the festival the thirty delegates journey to Yugoslavia. They will spend one month there working on the construction of a one hundred and fifty mile stretch of railway.
I should like to make one or two suggestions after the lunch hour and therefore, Mr. Chairman, I would ask you to call it one o'clock.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
At one o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at two o'clock.



TAX AGREEMENTS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT (Minister of Finance) moved the third reading of Bill No. 411, to authorize the government to enter into agreements with the governments of th^ provinces pursuant to which, in return for compensation, the provinces agree to refrain from levying certain taxes for a limited period.
He said: If I may be allowed to do so, I should like to answer now a question asked by the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Black), which I omitted to do earlier. The hon. member asked me a question as to the position of the Yukon under this legislation. I intended to answer him when we were at the committee stage, but I overlooked doing so. He asked whether an agreement could be made with the Yukon Territory along similar lines to those made with the provinces.
Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: I do not wish to delay passage of the bill by insisting on an answer to my question.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is fine. I will give the hon. member the answer privately.
Western Provinces


James Horace King: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Mr. HAMEL:: On division.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



WESTERN PROVINCES


[Stage Direction]
Hon. DOUGLAS ABBOTT (Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 451, respecting the refunding and adjustment of indebtedness of the four western provinces to the government of Canada in respect of certain outstanding loans for relief and other purposes and final settlement of the claims of the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan in respect of natural resources.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the bill before the house is designed to authorize a definitive settlement of certain claims and counterclaims existing between the government of Canada on the one hand and the governments of western provinces on the other hand.
It will be recalled that the impact of the depression of the thirties was most devastating in the case of western Canada. Unemploy^-ment and low prices were the common lot of all Canada, but to the west, an economy built on a highly specialized grain growing industry, there came the additional scourge of a succession of drought years, aggravating enormously the economic losses and multiplying the problems and the financial burdens of government.
While the expenditures of the provincial governments increased many times, their .revenues dropped precipitately, creating deficits of a very large order. Taxes were increased and new levies were imposed, but such action did not go far to bridge the deficits. Even for governments in the soundest financial position, it is usually not easy to borrow at reasonable rates, but so great had been the economic disaster to western Canada that the credit of provincial governments resting upon that agricultural economy was seriously impaired or in danger of being lost altogether. In the late thirties, the improvement in economic conditions and in the investment market was more than offset by the huge debts which the western provinces had already accumulated. Throughout the thirties it continued to be impossible for the western provinces to finance their deficits. In this connection I wish to quote some pages from the Sirois report. On pages 163 and 164 of volume 1, the commission had this to say:
The problem of financing sharply rising outlays for relief would have been difficult enough 
had the costs fallen evenly upon the various sections of the country. The extreme differences which occurred, however, greatly aggravated the situation. The wide disparities and the regional incidence of the depression had, as a consequence, large variations in the incidence of the burden of relief and other welfare costs upon the several provinces.
The costs of relief varied inversely with the ability to meet them. In western Canada, where incomes fell most rapidly, relief costs were relatively the highest. The weight of the burden in Saskatchewan, the province most severely affected, was about five times as great as that in the maritimes and Ontario, the provinces least affected. Total relief expenditures during the eight-year period amounted to nearly two-thirds of the total municipal-provincial revenues in Saskatchewan compared with about one-fifth in the maritimes and Ontario. A burden with such extreme variations in its incidence could not be entirely carried with local resources.
Speaking of the unprecedented problem in the province of Saskatchewan, the commission had this to say at page 170:
The costs of direct and agricultural relief completely overwhelmed the finances of the province and its municipalities. These costs during .1930-37 never fell to less than 27 per cent (1933) of the total municipal-provincial revenues, and in 1937 they rose to 163 per cent of such revenues. For the whole period the relief expenditures amounted to 60 per cent (compared with 21 per cent for the rest of the country) of the total ordinary receipts of the province and its municipalities combined. Although new taxes were imposed and rates increased, revenues could not be maintained at levels required to provide adequate ordinary government services, much less to pay for any part of relief costs. It was manifestly impossible to meet any significant portion of the outlay on relief by means of local taxation when total expenditures for this purpose for the eight-year period exceeded the total net farm cash income of the whole province . . . The provincial government undertook, either directly or indirectly, virtually the whole of the liability in excess of the dominion share. Between 1930 and 1937 the total debt of the provincial government was more than doubled. Three-quarters of this increase was due to relief. In 1929 the per capita deadweight debt of the province of Saskatchewan was the loivest in Canada with the exception of Quebec; in 1937 it was the highest.
Finally, speaking of the western provinces as a whole, the commission said on page 173 of its report:
The western provinces either temporarily or permanently lost their financial independence and could only continue to function with dominion loans and in some cases with partial default of debt charges. In 1937, one-fifth of the total municipal-provincial revenues were absorbed by the interest on non-self-supporting debts.
Of the loans made by the dominion to the four western provinces during this period), an amount aggregating over $165 million is still outstanding, of which Saskatchewan owes $80 million, not counting indebtedness arising out of 1938 seed grain loan guarantees which was

Western Provinces
refunded in 1945 and is now outstanding in the amount of 810,051,707.96; Manitoba nearly S25 million; Alberta S26 million, and British Columbia 834 million.
This indebtedness is secured by treasury bills held by the dominion. The bills all bear three per cent interest, although rates on the earliest loans by the dominion were as high as five per cent. In the case of Saskatchewan, interest has not been paid in recent years on a very substantial proportion of its total indebtedness. The indebtedness is represented by treasury bills which are payable either on demand or at the end of one year. The practice has been to renew the one year treasury bills repeatedly as they came due; and while from time to time small amounts have been paid off by provincial governments, it has been impossible to get any substantial amounts paid off or to put into effect any systematic plan for the retirement of the indebtedness.
As the house will recall, a couple of years ago there was a dispute between the dominion and the province of Saskatchewan in regard to the payment by the province of a demand treasury bill arising out of the guarantee of 1938 seed grain loans in the province. The dominion had endeavoured to use the principle of "offsetting" part of the dominion's payments to the province under the wartime tax agreement against the seed grain loan debt owed by the government of Saskatchewan to the dominion. An arbitration tribunal was set up under the wartime tax agreement to adjudicate upon this dispute but did not reach a unanimous decision. Shortly thereafter a settlement was arranged between the two governments by which the debt was refunded and arrangements made for its repayment over a reasonable period of years.
This controversy served to emphasize the unsatisfactory situation arising out of the indebtedness of these provinces to the dominion and during the negotiations leading to the dominion-ffrovincial agreements it was recognized that as long as there was a possibility of the dominion using the power of "offsetting", no judicial determination of the question having been achieved-
Mr. GREEN:: The minister is going too fast. We cannot hear him properly.


Douglas Charles Abbott: -it might be dangerous for a province with a large demand indebtedness due to the dominion to rent to the dominion certain of its tax rights in exchange for annual payments from the dominion. Con-sequentlj', during the course of the negotiations of the dominion-provincial agreements
last fall, my predecessor and the representatives of the government of Saskatchewan discussed in detail ways and means of arranging a settlement of the debt owed by the province to the dominion as well as of certain claims which the province had against the dominion. Fortunately a mutually satisfactory agreement was reached. Once agreement had been reached with Saskatchewan, which was most heavily indebted to the dominion, it was possible to apply the same principles, so far as they were applicable, to the financial relationships existing between the dominion and the other three western provinces. The bill now before the house seeks authority to enter into the agreements which were reached with all four provinces.
Perhaps it will simplify the explanation of the provisions of the bill if I deal first with the counter-claims which the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta had against the dominion. iAs the house will recall, the control and administration of the natural resources in the prairie provinces were not handed over to the three provincial governments until 1930. The Manitoba transfer agreement was preceded by a royal commission which reported upon the financial readjustments involved. This royal commission recommended that the dominion pay the provincial government
S4,o84,000	plus interest. This award was acceptable to both and was accordingly implemented. In the case of Saskatchewan and Alberta, however, while the transfer of the resources was affected in 1930, the question of the financial readjustments was left for future settlement. The formal transfer agreements provided for the establishment of a royal commission for each province to inquire and report on what consideration, if any, should be paid to the two provinces in order to place them in a position of equality with the other provinces of Canada with respect to the administration and control of their natural resources from September 1, 1905 (the date of the establishment of the two provinces) until the date of their transfer to the provinces.
The Saskatchewan commission was appointed in December, 1933, and that for Alberta in July, 1934. Mr. Justice Dysart, of the Court of Kings Bench, Manitoba, was chairman of both commissions, and Mr. George C. McDonald chartered accountant of Montreal, was a member of both. The third member of the Saskatchewan commission was Mr. Justice H. V. Bigelow, of the Court of King's Bench, Saskatchewan, and the third member of the Alberta commission was Mr. Justice T. M. Tweedie, of the Supreme Court
Western Provinces



TABLE SHOWING RESULTS OF PROPOSED SETTLEMENT OF PROVINCIAL TREASURY BILL INDEBTEDNESS TO DOMINION

[Stage Direction]
-	Manitoba	Saskat- chewan	Alberta	British Columbia	Total$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.A. Total Treasury Bill Debt	24,734,451 82	*80,361,852 44	26,212,000 00	34,031,219 04	165,339,523 30B. Treasury Bills for capital and	ordinary governmental pur-	13,855,100 66	13,414,440 93	15,617,000 00	17,346,837 65	60,233,379 24C. Treasury Bills for direct and	10,879,351 16	61,221,227 44	10,595,000 00	16,684,381 39	99,379,959 99D. Amount to be cancelled-	(1) Half of C	5,439,675 58	30,610,613 72 5,726,184 07	} 5,297,500 00	8,342,190 69	55,416,164 06(2) Capitalized relief interest E. To be repaid in cash out of pro-	
ceeds of Natural Resources Settlement (calculated as of		8,031,250 00	8,031,250 00		16,062,500 00
F. Amount to be refunded without					
	5,439,675 58	30,610,613 72	5,297,500 00	8,342,190 70	49,689,980 00
G. Amount to be refunded with					
	13,855,100 66	5,383,190 93	7,585,750 00	17,346,837 65	44,170,879 24
					
* Excluding Treasury Bills covering 1938 seed grain loans refunded in 1945. Original amount $16,468,852.49, amount presently outstanding $10,051,707.96.
For the purposes of the settlement, the outstanding treasury bills were first divided into two classes, those that represented borrowing for capital or ordinary government purposes, and those that represented borrowing for direct and agricultural relief. It was felt by the dominion that any adjustment granted could relate only to the second category, namely, relief loans.
*Loans for other than, relief purposes, it was felt, should be paid off in full over a reasonable period of years on a systematic amortization basis. It was agreed that the total indebtedness of each province for capital and ordinary government purposes should be refunded by means of a new issue of securities which would be retired over a period of thirty years by equal annual payments representing amortization of principal and interest at 2f per cent, which is approximately the cost of borrowing by the dominion for a comparable period. In order to encourage more rapid repayment if the finance position of a province should make it possible, it is provided that in case a province should pay any amount of principal in advance of the date fixed for payment thereof, interest shall
be deemed to have been payable on the amount so paid at a lesser rate appropriate to the term for which this amount of principal was outstanding. A table will be inserted in each treasury bill showing the interest rates to be used in connection with such prepayments and these rates will correspond approximately to the cost of dominion borrowing for the varying periods in question.
When the legislation has been passed and the arrangement implemented, the new issue of treasury bills which will replace the treasury bills now outstanding issued for capital and ordinary government purposes, will amount in round figures to $13-9 million in the case of Manitoba; $5-4 million in the case of Saskatchewan (after applying the natural resources award payment); $7-6 million in the case of Alberta (after applying the natural resources award payment) and S17-3 million in *the case of British Columbia, a total of just over $44 million.
In the case of the treasury bills which represent provincial borrowing for direct or agricultural relief, the arrangement is that
Western Provinces
[Stage Direction]
half of the bills now outstanding will be cancelled and the other half replaced with a new issue of treasury bills payable, without interest, in equal annual amounts on the first day of July in each of the next thirty years. The total amount of indebtedness which will thus be cancelled is $55,416,164.06, divided as follows: Manitoba, $5,439,675.58; Saskatchewan, $36,336,797.79; Alberta, $5,297,500; and British Columbia, $8,342,190.69.
In the case of Saskatchewan this amount includes $5,726,184.07 of interest on relief treasury bills which was capitalized during the thirities. Prior to 1940-41, Saskatchewan only paid its interest in cash in respect of certain treasury bills issued for capital or ordinary government purposes, and interest on the balance of its treasury bills was paid by the issue of further provincial treasury bills, which, of course, increased the provinces debt to the dominion. No treasury bills in respect of capitalized interest were received after March, 1940, but it should be remembered that under the wartime tax agreements Saskatchewan accepted the net debt service option and consequently had1 the province been paying interest to the dominion on its relief treasury bills, it would have been entitled to receive during the life of the agreement a corresponding increase in the annual amount payable by the dominion under that agreement. This did not seem sensible at the time and no such arrangement was made. I believe the house will agree that the sensible and sound course today; in view of the general settlement which has been reached, is not to continue to carry this capitalized interest dowm through the years but to cancel it as has been arranged.
The. amount of the relief indebtedness which will be refunded by a new issue of treasury bills but without interest aggregates $49,689,980, divided as follows:	Manitoba, $5,439,-
675.58; Saskatchewan, $30,610,613.72; Alberta, $5,297,500,00; and British Columbia, $8,342.190.70.
This completes the description of the essential features of the arrangement. Perhaps I may summarize the position as follows: Today the four western provinces, as a result of their experience in the thirties, owe the dominion some $165 million (excluding the Saskatchewan seed grain loan indebtedness previously referred to). On nearly $74 million of this debt, no interest is currently being paid. Part of the debt is payable on demand and the rest theoretically is payable at the end of one year but in fact it has under present circumstances to be constantly renewed. The debt is carried on the books from year to year with little change and there is no systematic plan for its retirement. When the new agreement is impletMr. Abbott.]
mented, slightly over $16 million of the total debt will be paid1 off in cash and another $55 million will be cancelled. There will then be outstanding almost $94 million of treasury bills, of which slightly over $44 million will bear interest at 2f per cent and the remainder, no interest. Systematic provision, however, will have been made for retiring the whole of this amount in equal annual amounts over a period of thirty years. The annual payments required to be made by each province in order to pay interest and retire the debt should be comfortably within the capacity of the province to pay.
I believe, therefore, that hon. members will agree that this arrangement is one which is in the best interest of the dominion and the provincial governments concerned and will contribute to sounder dominion-provincial financial relationships.
Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):: I am not rising to go into the detail of this measure at this time, but I may say at the outset that it will receive our support. The minister has given us a long statement of the history of these financial relations. There is so much in it, and he has gone over it so rapidly, that I fear no one in the house can remember every detail he has given. It is for that reason that I wish to ask two or three questions and he may answer now or wait until we get into committee.
This bill I understand has to do with the refunding and adjustment of relief and unemployment debts of the four western provinces, contracted between 1930 and 1937, and it provides also for the final settlement of certain natural resources problems with two of . those provinces, namely, Alberta and Sas-katchew'an. The minister has given us a great many figures, and has intimated that these provinces owe the dominion $165 million. What the house would like to know in simple language is this: How much has that debt been written down, and how much does each of the provinces save as a result of this so-called refunding or adjustment, which I take it is largely a matter of writing down, and the assumption by the dominion of the amounts written off? What is the saving to each of these provinces? Assuming that their obligations have been proper obligations up to now, and deducting from that the amount the government says they still owe, what is the saving? What is the cost of this operation to the dominion treasury?
Those are very simple questions, the answers to which will give the final or net result of the operation. I should like to ask one other question. These debts were created from ten

Western Provinces
to seventeen jrnars ago. I was on the other end of these obligations for many years. In my opinion the government has been too long in coming to an adjustment of them. However, I should like the minister to say now when these adjustments were made. I take it that within the last year the government has come to an understanding with the provinces, and this is enabling legislation to enable them to carry out the settlement which they have nominally agreed upon.
I should like also to ask the minister this question, and I imagine what his answer will be. I would ask him whether this settlement had anything to do with the discussions on the dominion-provincial relations matter which have been going on at the same time. I expect he will say there was no connection. I should like him to say whether the discussions were carried on at the same time as those that took place on dominion-provincial relations.
As for the details of this measure, my associates and others will no doubt want to raise some questions either now or later on, but these main points I should be glad if the minister would answer clearly and concisely as soon as it is convenient for him to do so.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Some of them have already been answered in the statement I made.


John Bracken: We are not in committee now and perhaps there are others who would like to speak. I have no objection to having them answered now but the minister can deal with them in committee.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I will deal with them in committee, though, as I say, I have already answered some of them.


Mr. F. S. ZAPLITNY (Dauphin):: This bill seems to be a post mortem, on the hungry thirties, and there is not very much we can do about it except to let it pass through the house. I hope, however, that the minister will at some stage of the proceedings Let the house know* what the federal policy is, what is contemplated by the government in this matter in the case of a situation arising such as necessitated this bill. In other words, if another depression happens to strike Canada it will again effect western Canada very rapidljq and I should like to know what the government proposes to do in the matter of direct relief and1 other matters allied to that problem.
I would like to make a suggestion to the government-that we do not wait until we are faced with a situation under which large sums of money will have to be spent on direct relief.
After all, money expended in that way is not an investment; it is practically wasted, although it is necessary at the time. It would appear to me to be the better part of wisdom if the government would adopt the policy of making available to the western provinces, particularly the three prairie provinces, large sums of money, interest free, probably to the extent of $10,000,000 per year, in order that they may stabilize their economies and open up new fields of industry, such as processing, which industry would fit in so well with the economy of western Canada. That would be making an investment in the western provinces rather than just spending money as a stopgap in the trying times of a depression.
I want to emphasize the fact that this money should be made available interest free, because in reality it will be assisting the people of Canada through the federal government. If we learned a lesson from the last depression it was that if the different governments wait until a depression is upon them and there are thousands of unemployed in need of some direct relief or other form of assistance to keep body and soul together, large sums of money-in the last depression it ran to over a billion dollars-will be spent with practically no return. I hope the government will announce some new policy, perhaps revolutionary for them, of making available to the provinces large sums of money interest free in order that they may prevent the next depression rather than having to spend money when it does come.
Motion agreed to; bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Golding in the chair.
On section 1-Short title.


John Bracken: Would the minister make a short statement on this section?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The leader of the opposition asked what t'he cost to the dominion treasury would be. I think I mentioned that in my statement. The total treasury bill indebtedness is shown in the table which I placed on Hansard as $165,339,523.30. The treasury bills for capital and ordinary governmental purposes total $60,233,379.24. Treasury bills for direct and agricultural relief total $99,379,959.99. The amount to be cancelled, which is half of the amount I have just mentioned, is $55,416,164.06. That figure represents the amount the dominion government is writing off.


Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: Does that include interest, or is interest being forgone also?
Western Provinces


Douglas Charles Abbott: Interest has been forgone on that part of the indebtedness which we are cancelling, that is half of the direct and agricultural relief indebtedness.


John Bracken: I do not think that is what the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario was referring to. Does the figure of $165 million include accumulated interest?


Douglas Charles Abbott: In the case of Saskatchewan that includes an item of accumulated interest to which I referred in my statement of some $5,700,000. The figure of $165 million, in round figures, which I mentioned, includes approximately $5,700,000 of accumulated interest owed by Saskatchewan. As I mentioned, Saskatchewan, having since 1940 accepted the debt service option under the wartime tax agreements, this would have been paid by the dominion as an increased amount, so it was offset,	.
The next question was as to when this was done. The committee may recall that late last summer by predecessor, the present Minister of Justice, and the provincial treasurer of Saskatchewan, Mr. Fines, made an announcement that this settlement had been negotiated. A public announcement was made of a settlement in the terms of the bill which is before us. As the committee will see, the bill is to be effective as of July 1 of this year.
Then the next question was if this had any relation to the dominion-provincial discussions. It had to do with them in this way: Saskatchewan, and possibly other provinces, was not willing to enter into any financial arrangement with the dominion government when it had this tremendous overhanging load of debt and the threat that the dominion might exercise its right of offset against any payments which might 'be agreed upon in lieu of tax fields which it was surrendering. Of course it has no connection with the arrange.-ment whereby annual payments are made to the provinces in consideration of their refraining from exercising the imposition of these taxes during the period of the agreement.
Obviously all the western provinces, and particularly Saskatchewan which had this enormous depression incurred debt, could not be expected to enter into agreements unless and until some arrangements were made for settlement. To that extent, yes, it had a connection with the dominion-provincial discussions, but to that extent only.


John Bracken: The minister did not state how the $55 million which is to be cancelled is divided between the four provinces.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I gave it in my statement, and it also appears in the table, but I shall 
give the division again in round figures: Manitoba, $5.4 million; Saskatchewan, $30.6 million; Alberta, $5.3 million and British Columbia, $8.3 million. In addition there is $5.7 million to Saskatchewan to capitalize relief interest payments.


John Bracken: Could the minister take a moment to tell the committee why the Saskatchewan obligations are so much greater than the others?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I think I covered that in my statement. It is because the drought conditions in Saskatchewan were so much worse than they were in the other provinces of western Canada.


Howard Charles Green: Have all the provinces agreed to these terms?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any reason why the agreements should not be made a schedule to the bill?


Douglas Charles Abbott: There are no formal written agreements. This is just an adjustment of outstanding indebtedness. You do not really need any agreement. The figures are complicated but the arrangement is very simple. Province A owes so much money: the dominion makes an arrangement for settlement. I do not think there will be any agreement. There may be some written evidence, but the arrangement is of the simplest type. My hon. friend will appreciate that that is so once the principle is accepted.


Howard Charles Green: The bill contains provisions for the liquidation of any claims with respect to the transfer of the natural resources of Alberta and Saskatchewan?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Will there not be a formal
release of claims?


Douglas Charles Abbott: My hon. friend is quite
right. There will have to be that, of course.


Mr. MacNICOL:: In my opinion the
western provinces, particularly Saskatchewan, would not have been in the box they were in had this country done what it should have done years ago, give the western provinces a chance to go ahead. The minister mentioned the drought. It is not much wonder they had no- crops when they had no rain, for we had made no provision for them to have water, which we easily could have done. I hope when this is all over, this country will commence a long-term programme whereby the western provinces will be given a chance to live. This may be a stop-gap for the present

Western Provinces
but we have to go further than that and provide for the water that is there being made available to the western provinces. We need only look at what they have done in the western United States where they had the same trouble, but they combatted it and provided against a recurrence of the troubles they had had there by providing water for their dry states. We are voting some millions through now, but we should have done it long ago.
I rose merely to say that Saskatchewan was not to blame for this debt, nor perhaps Alberta or Manitoba. The western provinces, and Saskatchewan in particular, were not to blame.


Mr. WRIGHT:: This agreement, as the
hon. member for Dauphin has stated, does not provide for any emergency which may arise in the future. Personally I do not think the agreement is a satisfactory one so far as Saskatchewan is concerned. During the drought years, particularly in Saskatchewan, we were faced with a national emergency. The people of Canada came to the assistance of the western provinces in their extremity at that time, and now by this bill the people of Canada are writing off a portion, but only a portion, of the relief that was then supplied. In my opinion the amount which is being written off in the case of Saskatchewan, which was the province most affected by the drought conditions which existed in the thirties, is not sufficient. The people of Canada, realizing at the time that it was a national emergency, came to the assistance of the provinces, and now because the emergency is over the dominion government is being just a little tough in this agreement and settlement. It is better than nothing at all; the provinces have accepted it, but they have accepted it on that basis.


John Horne Blackmore: Since this matter
has been referred to by the member for Dauphin, the member for Davenport, and the member for Melfort, I think it would be a good thing to spend two or three minutes more on the general question. The dominion government ought to adopt a long-range policy looking towards the strengthening of the economy of the four western provinces. Not only should irrigation be supplied, but steps Should be taken to encourage the development of industry, which would assist very greatly. Considerable attention is being paid to freight rates and tariff incidence, which have injured the western provinces a great deal. I do not propose to go into detail, but much validity is to be found in the words of the three hon. gentlemen who have just spoken.
I happen to come from Alberta. I remember that when we took a strong stand in 1935 and elected a government to do something about the situation we received very little appreciation from people down in this part of the country who should have had ten times better sense than they showed at that time. We heard nonsense about losing our credit, spoken by a lot of men who did not take the trouble to understand the real facts of the situation, as the minister evinced that he had done in his excellent statement. I commend him for that statement. It does indicate that finally the government is able to see clearly what did happen and is prepared to go some distance to help these provinces to adjust themselves in the national economy. Many more steps must be taken before the problem is solved in a long-range manner.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I would like to ask a question and say one word about the arrangement which has been made. I am not discussing its details. I think it is generous, but notwithstanding that, as one whose lawful occasions took him to Saskatchewan nearly every year in the thirties,
1	feel that they went through a terrible time and that they are entitled to great consideration. I used to wonder how people could endure what they went through during those years.
My question is this. Subsection 3 of section
2	says:
The Minister of Finance may charge to the reserve provided for in the public accounts of Canada entitled "Reserve for possible losses on ultimate realization of active assets"-
What is the nature of that reserve? Is it a reserve in the sense of a business reserve built up out of earnings?


Douglas Charles Abbott: If my hon. friend will cast his mind back, I spent considerable time in my budget speech in explaining the nature of that reserve. I explained that out of this year's revenues we had placed $25,000,000 to the credit of this reserve, which now stands at $155,000,000. I went into it in some detail, and perhaps my hon. friend will refresh his memory by looking up my speech. This will be charged to that reserve.


Mr. JACKMAN:: I understood that that reserve applied almost entirely against our loans abroad.


Douglas Charles Abbott: We started to create that reserve long before we had made any substantial loans.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: How much will this transaction need in the way of a reserve?
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Douglas Charles Abbott: About $55,000,000, in round figures.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: And at what figure does the reserve stand now?


Douglas Charles Abbott: At $155,000,000.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 2 agreed to.
On section 3-Natural resources settlement.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Subsection 3 says, in line 42:
.-releases and discharges the government of Canada from all or any liabilities in respect of the matters mentioned in subsection one of this section, other than in respect of the payments provided for in paragraphs twenty and twenty-one, and twenty-one and twenty-two, of the agreements mentioned in subsection two of this section, respectively.
That is the natural resources agreement, I take it?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is correct.
* Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario): Would the minister explain what that exception means?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The natural resources transfer agreement and the statute authorizing it provide that there shall be annual payments and the sum of $562,500 a year is fixed as a minimum, to be increased to $750,000 when the population increases to S00,000 and increased to $1,125,000 when the population reaches 1,200,000. These were subsidy payments fixed under this agreement, and the effect of this clause is that the settlement of these claims, to which I referred in my preliminary statement, is final and conclusive with the exception of the annual subsidy payments to which I have just referred, and which are provided for in paragraphs 20, 21 and 22 of the agreements referred to.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 4 to 6 inclusive agreed to.
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Golding in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
ISO. Departmental administration, $183,173.
Mr. HLYNIvA: When the house took recess at one o'clock I had just concluded putting on the record the three reports which appeared 
in the Daily Tribune stating that one hundred and ten young Canadians were granted permission to attend the youth festival in Prague, Czechoslovakia. I said that the government should have limited this delegation to ten members and reserved the remaining one hundred spaces on ships for British immigrants or displaced persons and refugees to come to Canada. I maintain that an error has been made in granting permission to such a large number of these people to attend the conference, thereby reducing the shipping space, because these people will have to come back to Canada eventually.
One other point in connection with this particular matter has to do with the money which these young people will spend while in Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. The government should have given consideration to that. I do not think we have too much foreign currency to spend as freely as these people no doubt will. I endeavoured to plead the cause of displaced persons and refugees on many occasions, and today I laid emphasis on the advisability of permitting a certain number of displaced persons and refugees who may have education to come in but who are willing to accept farm employment and employment in other lines of endeavour where there is a shortage of labour. The government would do well if it extended its regulations to permit some of these other people to come in. I appeal to thfe minister to give his earnest consideration to that matter.
There are one or two other things that I wish to mention in regard to Ukrainians. It so happens that Roumania was an enemy country during the war and is still looked upon as an enemy country. The Ukrainians who happened to inhabit one province of the Ukrainian historic land, the province of Bucovina, were incorporated into Roumania from the time of the first great war until the second great war, and as residents of Roumania, as they call it, they are considered enemy aliens. They are not I do not think a single Ukrainian who came from Bucovina fought against the British or the allies. The Roumanians held this land, and the Canadian government should be well enough versed in these matters to know that these people were held by force and had nothing to do with the Roumanian army, and for that reason they are not enemy people and should be admitted to Canada. These people should not take the blame for the Roumanian government, because they are neither Roumanians, nor did they ever agree with the occupation of their historic land.
The procedure which the government follows seems to exclude immigrants rather than allow

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them to come in. That is the way it appears to me. I did mention that a number of countries, United States, Britain, Brazil, Argentina and a few others, are taking in these people as fast as they can. Until recently it was an urgent question, and of course the government of Canada turned a deaf ear to the pleadings of those who spoke on behalf of displaced persons and refugees. The government rendered lip service, issued statements and passed regulations, but in effect did very little to allow these people to come in. It is now a matter of being fortunate if we get a number of these people, because when the United States, Britain and other countries that are taking these people get through there will be nothing left for us. Surely we should realize that in the future we shall not be able to get any European people to come to Canada, at least from countries that are today held or dominated by the Soviet union. Therefore why not take them now; why not take the best possible element? I would urge the government to give earnest consideration to that recommendation.
In this connection I should like to mention that I have in my hand a number of letters, and I shall read one or two sentences from one of them. They are from displaced persons who were fortunate enough to be accepted by Belgium. Here is one:
I am very son-y that you did not come with us to work at the Belgian mines.
He is writing to one of his friends.
The people are working hard here, but they are earning money and are able to buy everything they like. You can buy everything in Belgium if you have francs except the bird's milk. The shops are full of wares. After my life in Germany I cannot believe that it is really so. It seems that I am dreaming, that I am in America. It is really America in Europe. All information we read in newspapers were true. I am glad that I left Germany and the UNRRA's care. Although I have no money in my pocket, I feel that I am in a proper place here. The food is very good. We now get 4,000 calories per day.
The Belgians are showing a good attitude towards us. I advise you to come to Belgium as soon as possible. If you can't do it, tell other people to go to Belgium.
I regret that we do not receive such letters from newcomers to Canada telling their friends that Canada, recognizing the contribution of those who have come to this country as immigrants, is giving present-day immigrants an opportunity to make a living and opening up to them the possibility of a future. I could read many more of these letters, but I do not think I should at this time.
I wish to refer to only one other matter which I do not think I have mentioned before.
It is in connection with families who were separated throughout the war and are separated even today. I have here a list of names of people in the various zones, British, American and French, in Germany, Austria and Italy, where the husband is in one country and the wife with a child in another, and so far they have been unable to get together. I also have several replies from camp and zone directors stating, "We are sorry, but you cannot join your husband", or "You cannot join your wife and kiddies". Although this may not be directly connected with the department of immigration, I would ask that this government recommend to the governments which have a say in these matters that these people be allowed to get together. I realize that this country does not play a large part in international affairs. Though our country is large in area, our population is so small that we are not in the category of a large nation-though the hon. member for Temiscouata usually feels that Canada is being slighted if anyone refers to this country as a secondary or smaller nation; he does not like that. But in reality, in international affairs, we must admit that she is. I do not expect this government to right all these injustices in the international field. I realize that Canada cannot do that. But Canada can make recommendations, and Canada can help these people by allowing a certain number of them to come in. Once again I ask that this be done. I may be quite critical at times, but if better results than we have had thus far are not forthcoming, Mr. Chairman, I am afraid that not only myself but all others who are interested in this subject, from the point of view of Canada and from the humanitarian point of view, will really have to get at the government and create public opinion to make the government move in the direction in which they should.
The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:: Order. I suggest to hon. members that we shall make better progress if we deal with the items in an orderly way. On departmental administration it is quite in order for an hon. member to deal with any phase in connection with a department. But we have here certain items, for instance, 131 to 140, which deal with the mines and geology branch; then lands, parks and forests is another branch. If the minister is to answer questions in regard to these different phases of his department, he will perhaps require different officials. Therefore if hon. members could deal with the items as they are called, I believe it would be better for all concerned.

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Angus MacInnis: I just wish to ask a question, Mr. Chairman. I do not intend to speak on this. We are now on item 130?


William Henry Golding: Yes.


Angus MacInnis: I think the suggestion made by the chairman is a good one, that we deal with the appropriate items in their proper place.


Mr. HOWE:: I feel that the hon. member for Vegreville has made some strong statements, many of which are quite erroneous. I think his statements should not be allowed to stand without the correct facts being put on Hansard. With your indulgence, sir, I should like to reply to the remarks he has just made.
The hon. member has repeated the cry that the government has no immigration policy. Apparently he has not followed the statements made in this house by the minister of the department and the statements that have been made in recent debate, even as late as last evening. The fact is that the government has a specific, well-rounded and coordinated policy of immigration. It is being applied actively and energetically by an expanded and competent branch of the department. The policy may be described briefly as follows:
1.	There is practically free entry for all citizens of the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Ireland.
2.	There is equally free entry for all citizens of the United States.
3.	Citizens of non-enemy European countries may enter Canada if destined to relatives here who are in a position to assist them to get started, or if they are coming to work in agriculture, mining, lumbering or other basic industries.
4.	Other persons from such countries who have adequate means are also admitted freely.
5.	Individuals in the displaced persons camps are admitted to Canada when applied for by close relatives in this country. This is outside the special quota of 10,000 which was authorized as to 5,000 on June 6, 1947, and as to a further 5,000 on July 9 last.
6.	A person applying for admission to Canada for the purpose of marrying a legal resident of this country is admitted if the prospective husband is in a position to maintain his intended wife.
7.	In order to carry this policy into effective operation, we have established offices which can handle immigration cases, not only in the United Kingdom and the United States, but also in Paris, The Hague, Brussels, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Greece, Czechoslovakia, Portugal, Poland, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Ireland, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, China, Argentina,
[The Deputy Chairman.]
Brazil, Chile, Peru, Cuba, Mexico, Switzerland and India. In addition, we have special teams operating in Germany in cooperation with the preparatory committee of the international refugee organization, to handle the movement of persons from the displaced persons camps.
8.	From time to time movements such as that of the 4,500 members of the Polish armed forces who were recently admitted are approved and their admission to this country facilitated.
9.	Except for the wives and minor families of Canadian citizens of Chinese origin and similar relatives of Canadian citizens or residents of East Indian origin, there is at present no provision for oriental immigration to Canada.


Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):: I
should like to be clear in my own mind as to what the minister said. I thought he said any relative of a Canadian citizen resident in a non-enemy country of Europe could come to Canada. Would this mean that the cousin of a Canadian, resident with his wife in Poland, would be entitled to come to Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; a cousin is not within the published list of relatives. They include a son, daughter, wife or orphan nephew or niece, et cetera, but not cousins.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: I ask that question because outside this house a certain misinterpretation is placed upon the word "relative"; that is why I am glad to have the matter clarified.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I might also point out to my hon. friend that the word "cousin" is an almost all-inclusive term if we go back far enough. On May 1, 1947, order in council P.C. 1734, further amended by P.C. 695, made provision for the admission of the husband or wife, son, daughter, brother or sister, together with husband or wife and unmarried children, if any, and orphan nephew or niece under twenty-one years of age of any person legally resident in Canada in a position to' receive and care for such relatives. The new order also provided for the admission of a person enter. ing Canada for the purpose of marriage to a legal resident thereof, provided the prospective husband is able to maintain his intended wife.
The situation with respect to the admission of persons from the displaced persons camps has been explained repeatedly in this house and outside. On June 9 I said in the house, at page 3916 of Hansard:
The 5,000 individuals to be covered by this order will include those displaced persons who have already been admitted. They need not be residents of Canada.

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In spite of these facts the hon. member for Vegreville apparently is still unacquainted with the situation. In his speech this morning he gave it as his understanding that only certain persons could be brought into Canada from displaced persons camps, and went on to read the list of persons who are admissible generally from any non-enemy European country. We have 'been admitting relatives within the defined categories from the displaced persons camps for many months. On June 6 it was announced in this house that we wmuld admit 5,000 persons from these camps without waiting for an international agreement on the subject. Last evening I stated that the government had agreed to admit a further 5,000. This total of 10,000 persons does not include relatives but is additional to them. For the most part the movement consists of large groups coming to industrial or other employment in Canada. In addition to that, however, we are admitting individuals and families who are, not applied for by relatives in Canada but who are applied for by other persons in this country who agree to assist in their settlement.
At one point in his statement the hon. member suggested that the Canadian immigration authorities were discriminating against Likrainians. Of course there is not the slightest element of truth in this suggestion. The immigration regulations are not weighted against the Ukrainians, and in the administration of those regulations people of all national groups are treated precisely the same. If I understood him aright the hon. member for Vegreville seemed to suggest that this government was in some way responsible for the repatriation of a large number of Ukrainians from the displaced persons camps in the British and American zones. He indicated that a large number of these people were repatriated against their will. The regulations in regard to Repatriation, as my hon. friend must know, were agreed to by all the occupying forces; and included in them was a provision that no one should be repatriated against his will unless he had been a collaborator with the enemy during the war. For my part I am satisfied that this regulation has been carried out in good faith by the British and American authorities in Germany.
There is another point in the hon. member's statement which I am not prepared to allow to pass unanswered. I refer to his wholly unjustified reference to Mr. Fiorello LaGuardia, at one time mayor of New York city and1 later director general of UNKRA. Mr. LaGuardia is a great friend of Canada and a personal friend of mine, and as chairman of the United States section of the permanent joint board on defence, and in many other ways, he has shown his friendship and respect for this country. He is, moreover, one of those who has worked most ardently on behalf of the displaced persons of Europe.
I am sure the Minister of National Health and Welfare, to whom the hon. member for Vegreville referred in eulogistic terms and who knows the situation of European refugees as well as anyone in this country, would fully substantiate my statement. To suggest that Mayor LaGuardia is a communist or a friend of communists is palpably absurd.
Then my hon. friend made the statement two or three times that the United States is taking displaced persons "as fast as it can." I should like to ask him when those persons were taken into the United States, and on what authority. To the best of my knowledge and belief not a single displaced person has been accepted in the United States to date, outside the quota.


Anthony Hlynka: I should like to correct one or two statements made by the minister, which I feel were quite unfair. I do not blame him for the government's immigration policy, for he is only pinch-bitting for another minister who happens to be ill at the present time. I feel that results speak loudest. I have in my office several hundred cases of Canadians applying for the admission to Canada of both close and distant relatives, and that permission has not been obtained from the immigration branch. If the minister wishes to assure me that no obstacle will be placed in the way of granting permission in these cases I will be the first to give him and the government credit for that step. I have no reason at all to endeavour to discredit the government or reflect upon its policy. All I want to do is see that this thing gets moving, because so far the results have not been very substantial. The minister said I seemed to suggest that the Canadian government was responsible in some way for the repatriation of many of these displaced persons, and he went on to say he had full confidence that the British and American governments would adhere to their word once they promised not to repatriate any of these people by force. One must study the situation closely to learn the truth. I must tell the minister that it depends largely on the type of man who is in charge of a camp as to whether or not the people are repatriated. Let me say at once that at least fifty per cent of the camp directors working under UNRRA and the military governments have been exceptionally good to these people. Some of them really went out of their way to help; they were humanitarians. About twenty-five per cent

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were more or less indifferent; they carried out their instructions and 'that is about all. But I would say that the remaining twenty-five per cent of the heads of UNRRA camps had no business in any humanitarian organization. I was there; I met them; I discussed these problems with them, and their attitude was almost that of persons serving a country in whose interest it was to destroy these people or at least make them as miserable as possible. I have received hundreds of letters andl I have seen -these conditions myself. If the minister states that I am unfair in the assertion that these people are being repatriated, I wish to put on record an UNRRA order, UNRRA U.S. zone headquarters, Heidelberg, November 11, 1946. It is as follows:
Soviet proclamations, literature, films and newspapers will be distributed.
That is, in the camps.
Some such material is now available for distribution and additional material has been promised by Soviet officials. Cultural activities will be utilized and turned -toward the theme of repatriation . . . Every advantage must be taken to utilize the sentiments of persons who accept repatriation. This will call for alertness on the part of repatriation officers and area directors. As the programme gains momentum the experience of mass appeal already gained in the Polish repatriation drive can be brought to fruition with these nationalities. The propitious time for the use of emotional devices will be left to the judgment of the district officers and area teams. Special status with UNRRA will be accorded repatriates in all camp affairs and priorities for basic needs will be arranged on existing stocks of clothing and amenity supplies. Lists of Soviet citizens who lived in the USSR prior to the list -September, 1939, and determined to be Soviet citizens by the military authorities-
That is the screening or army review board.
-and receiving UNRRA care will be forwarded to UNRRA district headquarters by the 1st of December, 1946, where they will be consolidated and then transmitted to U,S. zone headquarters who m turn can transmit them to G.5 third U.S. army for ultimate transmission to the Soviet liaison mission.
_ That is plain enough. Many of these people in camps have been kidnapped. It so happens that an unscrupulous head of a camp will leave the camp for the evening and that evening the Soviet liaison officers will come in and call out certain names and ask these people to appear, and1 when they appear that is the last time they are seen or heard of.
I am not blaming the Canadian government at all for this but- I am pointing to the urgency of the situation as applied to people who lived within the territory held by the Soviet union on September 1, 1939. That is [Mr. Hlynka.J
the only reason I brought the matter up. The minister also said that I was unfair in my suggestion that the government discriminated against Ukrainians, but we have the figures tabled by the director of immigration, Mr. Jolliffe, in the immigration and labour committee, given in the report I quoted. All the minister has to do is look up the figures and he will see that one person of Ukrainian origin was admitted in twelve months.
I wish to be fair. As the Minister of Labour pointed out, there were a few others, just a few, who came in as Poles and perhaps under other nationalities, the reason being that some of these people are compelled to change their nationality, to say they are Poles or something else, because otherwise they would be repatriated.


An hon. MEMBER:: To Russia.


Anthony Hlynka: Yes, to Russia, under force; and we in Canada are engaged in this house many hours a day discussing human rights and fundamental freedoms and all the rest of it. Surely if we are sincere in that regard this is one place where we could make our representations. I know the Canadian government has made representations.
As regards my remarks with reference to the former Mayor LaGuardia, the minister says that he is one of Canada's friends, but it does not mean that he is a friend of displaced persons simply because he is Canada's friend. He may be a good friend of Canada and not be a friend of displaced persons. I am sorry I did not bring down from my office the names of persons who were removed from camps, as heads of camps and areas, by Mayor LaGuardia when he held a high office-


William Henry Golding: Order. I would ask the hon. member to confine his remarks to the' item.


Anthony Hlynka: I am replying tfi the minister. I will be brief, but I must justify my remarks with reference to the former Mayor LaGuardia.


William Henry Golding: What the hon. member thinks of Mr. LaGuardia has nothing to do with the item before us.


Anthony Hlynka: I was pointing out the urgency of allowing some of these people to be brought to Canada because the conditions under which they find themselves are miserable, and Mayor LaGuardia was one of those who contributed to that misery. That is why I made the reference. The minister undertook to refute my argument and I am trying to substantiate my position. When we reach the specific item on immigration I will place on the record' certain authentic information

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which appeared in the New Leader, published in the United States, regarding the treatment of displaced1 persons and those whom the former Mayor LaGuardia dismissed from service.


William Henry Golding: The hon. member would be in order in dealing with the immigration policy of Canada, but I do not think it is wise at this stage to take up the time of the committee criticizing Mayor LaGuardia.


John Ritchie MacNicol: May I ask, Mr. Chairman, whether we are going to have a discussion all over again on immigration in connection with an immigration item? Under this item we are discussing everything. Are we going to discuss immigration again?


William Henry Golding: The hon.
member may discuss immigration policy, but I hope he will confine his remarks to the policy of the Canadian government.


Anthony Hlynka: I have concluded for the time being, but if the minister allows what he has said in connection with my reference to the former Mayor LaGuardia to remain on Hansard I am willing to place on the record material to substantiate my remarks. That is all.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The matter which I wish to discuss now is one which I felt should be brought up under this general item. I do not knowT that it could come up under any of the other items. It has reference to the question I asked the minister yesterday in connection with subsidies paid to the Dominion Coal Company in Nova Scotia.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Under what item of mines and resources does the question of coal subsidies come?


Alfred Johnson Brooks: If it does not come under mines and resources I do not know under what department one would discuss coal.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Under reconstruction and supply.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I also wish to discuss the royal commission on coal, and by no stretch of the imagination can coal, one of the great natural resources of the country, be said not to come under mines and resources. If that is so, I contend that the hon. member who spoke this morning was right when he said that it was time the Department of Mines and Resources dealt with mines and resources.
In replying to my question yesterday the minister-


Clarence Decatur Howe: I ask for a ruling. Coal mining happens to be under reconstruction and supply.
We must draw the line somewhere or members will be talking about the Nova Scotia election under this item.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: We are not talking about the Nova Scotia election. I am referring to mining, and if that does not come under mines and resources-


William Henry Golding: The payment of subsidies is not under mines and resources.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is item 577.


William Henry Golding: That is reconstruction and supply.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: What does it deal with?


Clarence Decatur Howe: You would not understand.
I will have to make it clear later.


William Henry Golding: I think it would be in order to discuss coal mining.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Thank you for your ruling.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Coal subventions are not under this department.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I am dealing with the
mining of coal in the maritime provinces. If this item has nothing to do with mines, I will sit down. If the Department of Mines and Resources can be said to have nothing to do with the mining of coal, then I am quite willing to take my seat.


William Henry Golding: What are
the items the minister is referring to?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Item 577 reads:
To provide for production and transportation subsidies for Canadian steel producers under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council.
Item 921 reads:
To provide for production and transportation subsidies on steel, iron and coal under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council and also as provided in item No. 577 of the main estimates.
Both items are under reconstruction and supply.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I understand the ruling is that I can speak under this item. I would have been finished with this matter long ago if I had been allowed to speak. I do not intend to take up very much time. I was disappointed with the statement made yesterday by the minister that subsidies were being paid only to the Dominion Coal Company. At that time the minister said that he got his authority from the report of the royal commission on coal. I have gone through that report very carefully and I find that that commission recommended subventions and
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tariffs as a means of assisting coal mining in the maritime provinces. On page 584 of the report is a supplementary note which looks to me more like an after thought than anything else. It is signed by W. F. Carroll, the chairman of the committee and it reads:
I think that it may be necessary to afford the Cape Breton mines interim support immediately following the suspension of production subsidies arising out of price control.
That apparently is the basis for the payment of subsidies to the Dominion Coal Company in Nova Scotia. The Dominion Coal Company is the largest producer in the mari-times, and if it needs assistance, surely the smaller producers-I speak particularly for those in New Brunswick-need similar assistance. The Dominion Coal Company has received more assistance than any of the smaller companies. Not only do we not have a subsidy in New Brunswick; we are faced with the fact that the Dominion Coal Company has received more assistance than any of the smaller companies. Not only do we not have a subsidy in New Brunswick; we are faced with the fact that the Dominion Coal Company is paid a subvention to ship coal into New Brunswick to compete with the small mines there.
I do not wish to give offence to the minister, but I do contend that if this policy is continued it will drive this small industry in New Brunswick out of business. I do not want to be insistent, but I must emphasize that this industry means much to the people down there. To a great extent our whole economy depends upon our coal mines. Our hydro electric power is developed from our coal which is sold almost exclusively in our own province. If the government is going to continue to pay subventions to the coal industry in Nova Scotia to ship coal into New Brunswick to compete against the smaller mines there, it will drive those people out of business.
I had a letter just a day or so ago protesting against this and calling attention to the report that the president of the Dominion Coal Company had said that they were negotiating for subsidies. I feel keenly about this matter and that is why I have brought it to the attention of the minister again. I have great confidence in the minister and I submit that this is a matter which should receive his personal attention.
I think the cost of the royal commission on coal was out of all proportion to the benefits the coal industry has derived from its investigations. I was just looking up the cost of producing this large book and carrying

on the investigations and I find it was $282,374. As far as I can find out the only recommendations that have been carried out have been to appoint a dominion coal board, which could have been set up without any investigation of this kind, and carrying out the recomendation in a footnote by one of the members of the commission, Mr. Justice Carroll, a footnote which is not signed by the other members. That recommendation is simply to help the Dominion Coal Company. I make no apology for bringing up this matter at this time, and I sincerely hope the minister will give it the consideration it deserves.


Mr. BROWN:: It seems to me that the question of immigration falls roughly under three headings. First, there is the desire of the Canadian people to assist and relieve suffering in foreign countries. Second, there is the uniting of families. Third, there is the building up of our own country in a strong and efficient way. There has been a certain fictional romanticism about the efforts of the premier of Ontario to bring a certain number of immigrants to this country.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Donald Ferguson Brown: I am glad to hear applause from certain quarters and I hope the hon. members approve of it. In order to expedite matters I wonder if the Acting Minister of Mines and Resources would state whether any arrangements have been made by the British government for the settlement of immigrants in Canada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know of no arrangements made by the British government. British immigrants are received freely here and the services of the department of immigration and the Department of Labour are devoted to placing them properly in employment. That is the only arrangement that I know of.


Donald Ferguson Brown: Certain publicity has been given to the statement by the premier of Ontario that the British government have made certain arrangements for the settlement of immigrants in Canada. The minister says that there is nothing of that sort?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Do you mean the Ontario government?


Donald Ferguson Brown: The Ontario government has had a certain amount of publicity by stating that the British government have made plans for the settling of people in different commonwealth countries.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have the literature published under the seal of the agent general of Ontario,

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issued from Ontario House, 13 Charles II street, London, and the plan as given in this literature says:
The Ontario government has contracted by charter with the Transoeean Airlines Company of California, to supply daily two Skymasters each carrying 40 passengers to fly from Britain during August, September and October. The immigrants pay the full passage fare and are transported at Toronto, Ontario. The proposition is merely one of offering increased facilities to permit emigrants to move. There is no other intention or obligation on the part of the Ontario government.
Upon arrival the immigrant is interviewed and offered certain employment opportunities based on his capabilities; also living accommodation suggested. He is under no compulsion to accept what is offered. If he has some prearranged employment, he need not use the facilities of the placement officer, and he is at liberty to seek his own job.	_
No guarantees are given by^ the Ontario government of employment or living accommodation, hut the immigrant may be assured that many opportunities exist and that every reasonable assistance will be given if he wishes to avail himself of the service.	*
Another paragraph reads:
Only the following need apply.
Ages:	Male-16 to 17J-with parents' consent.
Ex-military service up to 21-with parents' consent. 21 to 40 inclusive.
Female-21 to 45 inclusive.
The Ontario government has asked for the cooperation of the federal government, and the full cooperation of the immigration department has been offered. The great difficulty of the plan is that the Ontario government has made what purports to be a contract with a United States air carrier with a business based on California. But Canada has a reciprocal agreement with the United Kingdom which provides that only Canadian or British equipment may fly the United Kingdom-Canada Atlantic route, and which provides further for a division of the traffic on that route between the United Kingdom and Canada. Canada is also a signatory of the international air transport agreement, which provides that certain rates will apply for certain periods on the Atlantic. This Ontario plan cuts across both these agreements. There is no possible way in which a United States carrier could carry traffic between the United Kingdom and Canada under existing international arrangements. Canada must take the view that it must keep its agreement with the United Kingdom and therefore it cannot permit a United States plane operating between the United Kingdom and Canada to land in Canada.
I believe that the proposal now is to land in the United States and transport the passengers
thence to Canada by buses. That will protect Canada so far as our agreement goes. It does not protect the United Kingdom, and it leaves the United States in rather a peculiar position. However, Canada is satisfied to protect our own good faith in carrying out our agreement, and we shall be happy if the movement can proceed without involving any violation on our part. It seems reasonable to expect that, if a province wishes to engage in a charter air operation, it should apply to either a British or Canadian aviation company for the necessary equipment. Charter equipment is freely available in England and in Canada. This seems to be a perfect example of a man playing with machinery that he did not understand and getting his fingers cut. However, no movement by air has :taken place as yet under the Ontario plan.


Donald Ferguson Brown: Who pays the cost of these immigrants flying to this country?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As I understand it, the
Ontario government has guaranteed full loads, and in consideration of that guarantee the fare is reduced by about S50 or $60 below the normal Atlantic crossing rate. The Ontario government has in effect relieved the carrier of all the cost of booking passengers, and of all the loss that occurs through passengers not appearing at the time of the departure of the plane. From the point of view of the aircraft operator the charter is attractive, but from the point of view of competition with other carriers it places the United States company in a preferred position. Although it purports to be a charter, it is my understanding that tickets for this service are being sold through a travel agency in London.


Donald Ferguson Brown: What percentage of the immigrants coming to Canada in 1946 and in 1947 to date were from the British isles, and what percentage from continental European countries?


Clarence Decatur Howe: For the fiscal year ended March 31, 1946, the totals of English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh were 20,162; from the United States, 7,454; northern European races, 1,148; all other races, 2,317, or a grand total of 31,081, of which more than 20,000 came from the British isles.


Donald Ferguson Brown: Has the minister the figures up to March 31, 1947?


Clarence Decatur Howe: For the fiscal year ended March 31, 1947, 47,976 were from the United Kingdom, 11,410 from the United States, 5.605 from northern European races, and
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1,999 from other races, so that over 47,000 out of a total of almost 67,000 were from the United Kingdom.


Mr. PULTON:: Are the wives and children of service men included in those figures?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I understand that these figures are for all immigrants, and show that more than two-thirds of our immigration came from the United Kingdom.


Donald Ferguson Brown: Then when the premier of Ontario says that most of the immigrants coming to Canada are foreigners-


John Ritchie MacNicol: He would not say anything like that. You are playing politics.


Donald Ferguson Brown: He said foreigners and other European nationals. I take it from the figures given by the minister that the statement of the premier of Ontario is not correct.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is not correct. I can read the statement in the Ontario literature:
Many continentals and foreigners are now being permitted to enter Canada. We feel it essential that we maintain our present percentages of British stock.


Mr. HAZEN:: The 4,000 Poles who were brought in cannot be included in the last figures the minister gave. The number amounted to 4,000. When did they come in?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That movement occurred after March 31, 1947.


Douglas King Hazen: Some more of these are being brought in.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am told some were brought in before and some after. Those who came in before March 31 would be included in the figure I gave; those who came after would not.


Percy Ellis Wright: 
Clarence Decatur Howe: The management of pounds sterling is, of course, a matter for the Bank of England and for the Chancellor of the Exchequer of Great Britain. The practice has been that immigrants with small means are allowed a greater proportion of their means in the first year than people better off. I think that any man desiring to emigrate to Canada is given sufficient money to satisfy Canadian regulations that he shall have funds sufficient to take care of him until he becomes established, which is a very small amount. I might point out that it would be difficult for Canada to get excited about this situation, because Canadians who wished to emigrate to another country have not been allowed to take all their funds; they have been allowed to take only a limited amount.

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Mr. McLURE:: In going over the definite policies of the government a few moments ago the minister said something that I did not quite understand. There are two people from Lebanon in Syria who applied to come to Canada, a mother and a son eighteen years of age. I want to know whether I understood the minister aright, that these people could not come here now. There are also two Polish residents, a man and his wife. They have relatives in Canada who are anxious to bring these two people here. There is also a family from Holland, quite a wealthy man, who wants to go into business in this country. Did I understand correctly that these five people whom I have mentioned could, under the new regulations, come to Canada? Their relatives are here.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I made it very clear in my statement that except for certain classes, which I have mentioned, there is no provision in the Canadian Immigration Act for Asiatics. Lebanon is in Asia. That situation is being studied and there may be a change in the regulations; but at the present time the people of Lebanon are not admissible under the Canadian regulations. What is the occupation of these Polish people? Where are they?


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: The man and his wife want to come out here to farm. Their people are already in Canada. They have two brothers living in Montreal and two brothers living in Charlottetown. They are splendid people, good citizens. They are in a position to establish themselves. Their people here are willing to put up bonds that they will not become a burden on the state.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are admissible if they are in good health.


Percy Ellis Wright: The minister said, as I understood him-perhaps I misunderstood him -that the Canadian government could not get excited about this since the same condition applied to Canadians leaving Canada, that they were not allowed to take all their assets. Did I understand the minister to say that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Percy Ellis Wright: How was it that the group of Slavs who left Canada recently were allowed to take their assets with them? They were Canadian citizens. They took their assets. Surely we should have some arrangement whereby British emigrants coming to this country could bring their assets in.
Mr. HQW'E: The people to whom my hon. friend referred were allowed to take certain assets out. Of some of them who had a considerable fortune in Canada, they were not allowed to take all their fortunes.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: It depends on exchange.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, it does not depend on exchange.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: There is lots of sterling.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There may be lots of sterling, but my hon. friend may get all the sterling he wants to spend in England.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: May I ask the minister a question with regard to the point raised by the hon. member for Melfort. Have there been any discussions between the Department of Finance and the Department of Mines and Resources, immigration branch, in regard to putting Canadian dollars at the disposal of the United Kingdom authorities to assist immigrants from Great Britain who have some capital there which they wish to transplant into this country, so that there will be a source of Canadian funds which can be drawn upon in exchange for sterling balances? I ask this question apart from the general financial considerations which exist between Great Britain and Canada in regard to Canadian dollars. What I want to know is, has the * Department of Immigration had any conversations with the United Kingdom to obviate the difficulty which the hon. member mentioned?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not to my knowledge.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: May I also ask the minister a question in regard to the transportation by air which was arranged by the premier of Ontario. The minister said that the T.C.A. or some transport service in Canada operated by T.C.A. had equipment which could do this particular job; also that the contract was a very desirable one. On that premise may I ask the minister whether or not T.C.A. ever approached the premier of Ontario with the suggestion that their services would be at the disposal of the province of Ontario to assist in the transportation of British immigrants?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Trans-Canada Air Lines have indeed approached the Ontario government.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Did they approach the Ontario government before the contract was made with the United States company?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Unfortunately Trans-Canada Air Lines did not happen to be in England at the proper time. The contract was, I understand, made in England.


Mr. TIMMINS:: Did I understand the minister to say that Premier Drew was out of line when he arranged for the flying of immigrants here from the old country?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, I do not say that at all. I said he was out of line when he arranged for an American plane to fly between Canada and the United Kingdom.
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Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Did not the hon. member for Beauce, when he brought over the immigrants from Poland, land at Bangor, Maine? Is that not in the same category?


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: That is a different
matter. That is by order in council.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Is it the suggestion that
Premier Drew is wrong in his approach?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not at all. That is quite
all right as far as Canadian regulations are concerned. An American plane flying from Germany to the United States is not subject to Canadian regulations. That is quite_ a proper operation. We can offer no objection if other contracting parties are willing to allow an American plane to fly between the United Kingdom and Buffalo at less than approved tariff rates.


Percy Ellis Wright: To follow up again the
question I asked before, in a letter from the foreign exchange control board with regard to this matter, it is stated:
Since the loans would be made against sterling assets not yet eligible for transfer to Canada, the foreign exchange control board does not have authority to use its assets for such purposes-
And this is the part I wish to bring to the minister's attention.
-and the question becomes one of general government policy.
In my humble opinion the government should have a policy with regard to this, to assist in the matter of British immigrants transferring their assets over here. I just wanted to state our position in that matter, because I think it is important that these people, especially those having assets of two or three thousand pounds or under, should nave such assets made available to them on their arrival in Canada so that they can oecome established. Otherwise they simply cannot purchase a home at all and become established. Their assets are dissipated over a period of three or four years and very often to little purpose.


Mr. HERRIDGE:: I just wish to refer
to a few of the remarks made by the hon. member for Yegreville who, I think, was most unfair in charging the government with discrimination as far as his people are concerned. I say that because I think the hon. member seems to permit himself to be misinformed. To support my contention, I want to read from a Canadian press dispatch of April 2, 1946, as follows:
On March 25, Anthony Hlynka, Social Credit member of the Canadian House of Commons for Vegreville, Alta., said he had been informed in a letter from reliable British and Canadian sources overseas that a group of drunken Cana-
dian occupation troops were led by a Russian officer into Wesserflug displaced persons camp at Delmenhorst, Germany, February 1 and February 2. There, according to the letter, they seized ninety Ukrainians and took them into the Russian zone.
The reply to that, in the Canadian press dispatch from London, of the officials concerned, reads as follows:
Canadian troops in northwest Germany have been participating in a search of displaced person camps for Russian citizens who must be repatriated to the Russian zone under military government regulations, Canadian military headquarters here said yesterday.
Opposition to deportation has been encountered from some displaced persons, officials said, particularly those Russian citizens who have "guilty consciences" because of cooperation with the Germans during the war. In some instances force has been required to send the "D.P's" to the Russian zone.
Persons suspected of being Russians are removed from displaced persons camps and appear before special board which determines their nationality. Any Russians are then sent to the Russian zone under military government policy.
In addition to that, these reports were brought to the attention of the Minister of National Defence, who asked for a report from the commander overseas at that time. I am quite sure that if the report on this matter of the commander of the Canadian forces in Germany at that time was read to this committee, hon. members would fully appreciate the kind of people they were dealing with in this instance.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Since we are on the general item under immigration, I might as well say at this time what I had intended to say later on. I do not desire to take much time so far as my views on immigration are concerned.


William Ross Macdonald: The discussion so far has been general. It occurred to me that we might now, by considering items 185, 186 and 187, deal with immigration and complete the discussion on that subject, then revert to the mines and geology branch, if that met with the approval of the committee.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That will be all right, if you stay on it item after item, instead of wandering all over the lot, the way we have been doing.


William Ross Macdonald: All right. We shall complete discussion on immigration and then take up the other subjects.


John Horne Blackmore: I wonder if it might not be in order to let the first item stand until the end, and allow hon. members to discuss the items they wish to discuss. If the first item stands, it protects the privileges of
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all members to discuss anything they may want to discuss after we have finished the general discussion.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is fine.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I take it that we are to go on with the discussion of immigration at this time?


William Ross Macdonald: Well, it is my opinion that we should carry the first item, No. 130, and then discuss the other items under the headings.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


John Horne Blackmore: I believe you would accomplish your objective more satisfactory. Mr. Chairman, if you allowed item 130 to stand, because then all hon. members would know that when that item came up again they could discuss anything they wished to. In the meantime, most of the underbrush would be cleared away.


William Ross Macdonald: If there is no general agreement, we shall have to take the items as they are set forth in the estimates.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What item are you going to start with, Mr. Chairman?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: Carried.


William Ross Macdonald: Does item 130 carry?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I am not just dear on this. Is it understood that if the first item carries, we are on item 185 next?


William Ross Macdonald: I was suggesting that we could carry item 130 and move on.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


John Horne Blackmore: We would be better off, Mr. Chairman, if we allowed item 130 to stand.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Let item 130 stand.


John Horne Blackmore: That has been done many times in the past.


Gordon Graydon: We would be better off if we made up our minds what we are going to do.


William Ross Macdonald: I am in the hands of
the committee.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Let item 130 stand.


William Ross Macdonald: Item 130 stands.
Item stands.
Immigration branch-
185.	Administration of the Immigration Act and the Chinese Immigration Act, $277,423.
186.	Field and inspeetional service, Canada, $2,221,532.
187.	Field and inspeetional service, abroad, $351,595.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Under item 185 I wish to take a little time to refer to the question of immigration. On the general policy of immigration I believe it is not necessary to say much more. We have discussed it in this house before. I have been trying to find some disinterested authority which might give some clue as to what effect a policy of greater immigration may have upon our country, and this may be of general interest to the committee. I have come across the reprint of an article written by R. H. Coats, the retired dominion statistician, which appeared in Saturday Night. Quoting from his article, they have this to say, which I think gives us some lead as to what we may expect:
Statistical records show that periods of high immigration are also periods of rising wage levels, says the retired dominion statistician, who is one of the world's chief authorities on the subject and is now a special lecturer at the university of Toronto.
Then a direct quotation from Mr. Coats:
The trend of wages, like that of prices and the cost of living, is contingent primarily upon the condition of the economy as a whole, and will not suffer from immigration if the latter is economically sound.
I think that sets out in brief terms the proper approach to the question of general immigration; that is to say, that if our economy is properly planned in such a way that we may expand the economy together with an expanding population, there is then no danger of unemployment or a dropping of wage scales.
I will leave that part of it at that point and go on with the other question which has been discussed today and which I believe the committee is more interested in at this time. That is the question of the displaced persons, the refugees, to which reference has been made by several hon. members today. On other occasions I have been critical of the government in connection with this matter, but today I want to quote from a document which gives the government a certain amount of credit, because I believe we should give credit where it is due. This is a memorandum submitted to the government by the Ukrainian Canadian committee in March of this year, and the paragraph I wish to quote I believe is very fair. It reads:
With regard to the second problem, namely the settlement of refugees, we wish to express our sincere thanks to the Canadian government
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for its action and tlie humanitarian stand taken by its delegation at the recent conference of the united nations. We have also noted with deep gratitude the fact that our country, Canada, was the first of all nations to sign the charter of the international refugee organization, which was created at the united nations conference. We believe that the Canadian government will continue its present course towards the final solution of the refugee problem. It is our belief that the government of Canada will serve as an example to governments of other countries in the resettlement of refugees and displaced persons by opening its doors more generously.
That is a bouquet thrown to the government, which I hope will not have the effect of making them rest on their laurels. I hope they will continue to take vigorous action in this matter in order that these people, whom we have referred to so often in this house and who are suffering in the displaced persons camps of Europe, may be relieved of their misery as quickly as may be humanly possible.
In that connection I want to add that when we last discussed this question in this house I offered a recommendation to the government. To what extent it has been carried out, I am not in a position to say. I recommended then that the most careful consideration should be given to allowing to come to Canada from the displaced persons camps persons who have relatives in Canada in a position to look after them and give them a start in life. I know there are thousands of applications in the immigration office. I know many members of this house have in their own files hundreds of letters regarding these applications for permission to bring relatives to Canada. Unfortunately the rate at which these applications have been handled and the rate at which permission is being granted is disappointing. We do not oppose the entry of other people to Canada.	I
believe the action of the government in passing only yesterday, an order in council under which an additional five thousand will be permitted to enter Canada will meet with approval across the country. But there is general disappointment at the speed with which these applications are being handled. There is a special urgency, because many of these people applied months ago. Some of these applications have been before the officials for two years now. If action is to be taken this year it can easily be seen that it must be done immediately. We are now in the month of July, and it is not long until the harvest season. If people are to become established here it is much better to let them come in now, when they can be of some assistance to their relatives in Canada and at the same time have a few months of the summer season left in which to become estab-

l'ished. That would be far better than having them come in the late fall or winter months. Therefore I hope some special effort will be made to expedite the handling of these applications, so that people waiting for permission to enter the country may have something to which they can look forward.
I also mentioned to the government the advisability of giving those who are now in displaced persons camps, and on whose behalf applications have been made, some statement to this effect in documentary form. Many of those people do not regularly receive information from Canada; in fact most of them do not. In some cases newspapers are not available, and for most of those people it is difficult to correspond with their relatives in Canada. They do not even know whether application has been made on their behalf. It places them in an uncertain position, and that uncertainty and suspense in their own minds is very bad for their morale. I would suggest-and I do not think it would involve very much extra expense or work-that when an application is received by the department from a person in Canada on behalf of a relative in a displaced persons camp, the person on whose behalf that application has been made be notified of that fact immediately and be given some document to indicate that fact. Then he will know that as soon as he becomes eligible, as soon as transportation is available, if he meets the qualifications of the immigration department he- will be able to proceed to Canada. He will have a document to show the officials of the camp and any other authorities concerned, and will have the satisfaction of knowing that some action is being taken on his behalf. It would also have the effect of giving those people something to look forward to in the future. As we all know, the relief that has been given so generously to those people by UNRRA is now being terminated. Many of them will have to leave the displaced persons camps, perhaps not of their own choice, but through the necessity of earning a living. It is not going to be easy for them to decide whether to establish a home somewhere in the country in which they happen to be or still to plan on coming to Canada, unless they have something in their possession to show that someone in Canada is working on their behalf to bring them here.
I wish also to ask the minister to comment on the position of people who are now classified as enemy aliens; that is, people who, during the war, happened to be in countries which were fighting against the allies. Many of those people are not really nationals of those countries. They happened to be there by reason of geography, or because of changes

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in geography over which they had no control. The example of Roumania was brought up today, and there are other cases of people of a different nationality who happened to be in those countries when war was declared and who are now regarded as enemy aliens until the peace treaties are ratified. I would ask the minister to comment on what position they will be in once the peace treaties are ratified, whether they will be treated like all other people in European countries; also what possibility there is of such people being able to prove that they are not truly nationals of the country under whose jurisdiction they came without consent and often against their own will. Many of those people were strongly opposed to the nazi regimes of those countries; some were actively opposed in the way of resistance movements, while others were perhaps just passively opposed. We could hardly expect women and children to be actively opposed to those governments. However, they are now in the position that, owing to an accident of geography, they are classified as enemy aliens. They may have very close relatives in Canada; we have cases where a father in Canada wants to bring his son or daughter from a European country, but because that son or daughter happened to be in a country like Roumania or another country in a similar position, they are classified as enemy aliens and at the present time are not eligible for entry. I hope the minister will make some statement on that position.
The other question I should like to ask is in connection with Poland. Some time ago I inquired of the department as to whether any information was available concerning the position being taken by Poland with regard to people who wished to leave that country and come to Canada. On March 7 of this year I received from the director of the immigration branch a reply in which he said in part:
We are not yet in a position to state whether or not the Polish government permits emigration from that country. The position at the moment is that we have no facilities for the examination of immigrants in the country named. However, there will be Canadian representation in Poland very shortly and we then hope to be able to arrange for immigration inspectional facilities if immigrants can leave that country.
I am wondiering whether any change has taken place since March of this year, whether any representations have been made since that time, and what attitude, if any, has been taken by the Polish government on this question.	.
There is only one more question I wish to raise, and that is along the lines of a question raised! by an hon. member to my right today. In connection wdth people who are 83166-348
known in Canada as Armenians, I have received documents and letters from certain persons interested in this matter who have asked me to raise this question in the house in order to get some clarification as to where Armenians stand under the immigration regulations. According to the regulations at the present time, Asiatic races are excluded, and apparently under order in council P.C. 2115 Armenians are regarded as Asiatics. I have the following information from a gentleman interested in the matter. He tells me that Mr. C. E. S. Smith, an official of the department wrote to him on May 10, 1947, a letter in which he stated:
With respect to your comment regarding Armenian nationals I would inform you that order in council P.C. 2115 covering such matters is based on geographic and not ethnological grounds. In view of the location of Armenia nationals of that country come within the scope of the order in council mentioned.
In other words, the interpretation of the regulations is such that people coming from what is known as Armenia are considered ito be Asiatics. I have documentary evidence signed by two professors of the university of Montreal, both professors of history in that institution, who apparently have made an exhaustive study of the question. They inform me that the Armenians are of Indo-European culture, race, language and civilization. They are of Aryan origin. Geographically speaking, they state, Armenia is situated in Trans-Caucausia, which is generally included in Europe. They say, further, that many Armenians were born in Constantinople, a European city which is situated on the European continent.
I have no reason to question the information given me by these gentlemen, who, as I say, have made a study of the question. I merely raise the matter, so that the officials of the department may make a closer study of the situation and clarify the regulations in order to be able to prove in their own minds whether the Armenians are actually an Asiatic race. From information given me, and from the studies I have made on the subject, it appears to me that they may more properly be classified as European than as an Asiatic race. These are simply a few points I wish to bring to the attention of the minister and I would ask him to comment upon them.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I wish to set my position right in connection with immigration. I was looking around the chamber to see where our members come from. The hon. member for Vegreville is, I believe, from the Ukraine,

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and we are all proud to have such people here. He is a credit to the country. So is the hon. member for Dauphin.


An hon. MEMBER:: He was born in
Canada.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The hon. member for Acadia was born in British Guiana. The hon. member for Lethbridge was born in the United States. The hon. member for Bow River was born in the United States. The hon. member for Camrose was born in Ulster. The hon. member for Battle River was born in Ulster. The hon. member for Wetaskiwin was born in England and the hon. member for Cariboo was born in the Orkneys, Scotland. The member for Macleod was born in England. The hon. member for Spadina was born in Poland-


Mr. CROLL:: Russia.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I stand corrected. The
hon. member for Vancouver Centre, although you would not know it from his speech, was born in Scotland. You can hardly understand him sometimes. The hon. member for Selkirk was born in Scotland.


Mr. BRYCE:: A good Canadian.


John Ritchie MacNicol: But you were born in
Scotland. The hon. member for Port Arthur was born in the United States. The hon. member for Kootenay West was born in England and the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre was born in the United States. That is all I wish to say.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Of Canadian parents.


John Ritchie MacNicol: \ es. We welcome here
people from every country. If folks come here and do what these hon. gentlemen in the House of Commons have done or what, as we know, men in business, in the professions, in music and in art have done in Canada, we may well welcome them and keep them all as Canadians.


Mr. WHITE (Middlesex East):: When we keep juggling these items around one is apt to get a little off the track. There are one or two things I wish to say, and I am not too sure that they apply particularly to mines and resources. Earlier in the estimates I approached the Minister of Agriculture with a question regarding the Thames river, and he said that had nothing to do with agriculture, that it was part of public works. Then, when the public works items were up the minister of that department said he would not promise anything as far as the Thames valley was concerned but he would not say no.


An hon. MEMBER:: That has nothing to do with immigration.


William Ross Macdonald: In order that the committee may be clear as to procedure, may I say that there was no general agreement to discuss immigration. The committee will therefore have to proceed in the usual way, taking the items as they are shown in the estimates. We are now on the first item, which is 130, departmental administration. The hon. member for Middlesex East is in order.


Harry Oliver White: While the Minister of Public Works would not say yes, he also said he would mot say no to assistance in connection with any projects on the Thames river. I may say to the government that they find ways of channeling taxes they take from the residents of Ontario to do works in other parts of the dominion. As I look over the departments of government, I am wondering whether one of them will fit into the Ontario picture to assist the Thames valley if and when that project is in need of assistance.
I 'would ask the minister to break down these immigration figures, because there is no doubt that many of the wives and children of members of the Canadian armed forces are included in these figures as immigrants from the British isles and are not really immigrants at all but are being repatriated.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can assure my hon. friend that no repatriation figures were included.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The minister saidi, wives and children, and they are being repatriated.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If a Canadian went to England and married an English girl and brought her to Canada she is a Canadian; nevertheless she would be included in the immigration figures If his wife went from this side and simply returned she wouldi be considered a repatriate and would not be included in the immigration figures.


Harry Oliver White: We realize that many of the persons who were given in these figures are really the wives and children of Canadians returning to Canada.
Another item I wish to bring to the attention of the minister is that of Pelee island in lake Erie. Apparently, looking over the estimates for public works, there was no place for it there. Extremely high lake levels have imperilled a large acreage on that island. We are carrying out irrigation projects in the west, but not a great deal is being done about the washing away of lake shores by the changing currents of the lakes. The eastern shore of this island is.quite low. The land has been drained and is now below the level of lake Erie. There are only 523 inhabitants on the island, but their production in soy beans and com is quite high. They are concerned about

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their situation should a severe storm similar to the one last week on lake Ontario occur. It is almost out of their reach to provide the funds necessary to construct a breakwater adequate to protect this shore.
When the hon. member for Essex West was questioning the minister with regard to the actions of the premier of Ontario in regard to immigration I was wondering if it would not have been better if he had warned the minister about the condition that prevails on Pelee island which is in Essex county. I hope the minister will take care of this matter because it is quite urgent. The lake level is extremely high. This is a separate township, and they are part of the county of Essex only for election purposes. They do not get any county funds and they are in a desperate position.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: I should like to say a word or two about immigration and give one illustration. A man in Toronto has a brother in Poland who is eligible to come to Canada. The man in Poland has a son who is eligible to come to Canada. But his daughter-in-law is not eligible. When the father comes to this country he can apply immediately to the immigration branch to have his son come here, but the daughter-in-law will not be allowed to come. It seems to me that that kind of thing ought to be straightened out. We should not be dividing families. I do not see any reason why a family should be broken up, especially when they are fine people. I am inclined to agree with the hon. member for Spadina. There are many good people in Europe who would like to come to Canada and who would be an asset to this country. We need population; we need the right kind of people. If we do not hurry up and get the best of these people somebody else is going to get them.
The immigration branch is doing a big work right at the present time. It has a great deal to look after, and I suggest that there should be a deputy minister of immigration to take care of the situation which will arise in the future. I should like the minister to take into account what I have just mentioned and see if it is not possible to bring in a family like that rather than break them up, especially when we need this type of good citizen.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth) :: May I just interject one sentence with regard to another feature of immigration work which to my mind is important? While I am speaking now, there is landing at Malton airport in Toronto a man by the name of Tonge. He is married and his wife will be coming out in due course.
83166-348J
He has a position here to go to. He is part and parcel of a big organization in London which is world-wide. He is part of an organization which purpose in due course to move their headquarters from London, England to Ontario and bring into this country a great deal of British money, provided that they can get it changed into Canadian money.
In the meantime they are bringing personnel here to study the Canadian situation. Two of that personnel are at present in western Canada, one in Athabaska and another somewhere near Calgary. A third member, an export manager of some twenty years standing. a gentleman by the name of William Gerrard, a director of a large organization, is buying a home with the intention of establishing himself in Canada. This man is backed up with an abundance of funds. He is ready to go ahead and develop in Canada an industry of the kind about which they have more knowhow than any other industry in the world. I speak with authority; I know whereof I speak.
I wish to make some observations in two or three sentences. I suggest that the immigration branch should encourage this movement from Europe. I see an hon. member from Quebec City in his seat. He knows that in his native city there are some European developments which will bring about a new industry. in Quebec City. I mention that in passing.
I come back to the theme that is worrying me and ask that the immigration branch facilitate the movement of these executives of industry into this country. They should take a broader view of the labour legislation which prohibits such industrialists and scientists coming to Canada until such time as the national employment service of the Department of Labour has made a review and canvass of the entire population of Canada to find out whether or not there is someone in Canada with the same know-how who would have to be put in a certain position when these know-how people, I will call them, are available and ready to go ahead and do business in Canada.
I have in mind a man by the name of H. W. Orwell who recently arrived in Canada. This man is full of know-how from British scientific manufacturing institutions. He is here on only a year's permit. He is a [DOT]S10.000 a year man, highly schooled and technically trained, to a degree which no one else in Canada has attained. He finds himself here, but his daughter was left behind. He should not be in the position of having to wait for the approval of the Department of Labour.
My plea in a few sentences is this. Take a broad view of those who want to come to
Supply-Mines and Resources

live among us, those who are trained, those who are executives, those who will expand industry, those who will be a great credit to this country, those who are enthusiastic over the idea that Canada has a future, that perhaps in days to come Canada will be the centre of gravity as far as the empire is concerned. They are great citizens; they are good people to have here. Do not let the picayune regulations of the Department of Labour and the national employment service keep them out. They are necessary for the proper development of Canada. We should let in these people, not only from the United Kingdom, but from Europe. Let us in Canada see if we cannot at this time capture these world markets which, before the war, were served by Europe, Germany and Belgium in particular, and, to a lesser degree, by Italy and perhaps Holland. With all these people anxious to come to our shores to help us develop our natural resources, let us see if we are not big enough in this assembly to take full advantage of the situation by admitting these people to our shores instead of holding them back by picayune regulations. Let us admit these people of good will who want to come here and who can give Canada the know how that has been accumulated over the generations in Britain and in Europe.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I say once again, as I have said three or four times this afternoon and once last evening, that any resident of British race in Great Britain who is of good character and in good health and has a small sum of money sufficient to maintain him until he can establish himself here is entitled to come to Canada, and not the slightest obstacle will be put in his way.


Joseph Henry Harris: Under a permit for one year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, a permit is unnecessary.


Joseph Henry Harris: Thank you.


Clarence Decatur Howe: He can come at any time. The contract labour laws that were in vogue in the bad days before governments were paying serious attention to immigration have been suspended.


Joseph Henry Harris: There are
scores and scores who have come here within the last two or three months and are still here under a permit for one year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: From where?


Joseph Henry Harris: From the United Kingdom. I will give the minister the names and assignment numbers and everything.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I wish the hon. member would give me the nature of the permit. I have

been Minister of Immigration for several weeks and have never heard of that kind of permit. The deputy says he has not heard of it. I cannot imagine why there would be a permit for one year. So far as bringing out capital is concerned, my hon. friend will agree that any country in tlhe world is entitled to pass laws to prevent the flight of its capital. This country has such laws, and has been enforcing them over the years and is still enforcing them, and naturally it is not going to interfere with the laws of another country designed for that purpose. There is nothing we can do about that. But so far as a person resident in the United Kingdom is concerned, if he is of good character and is in good health, and has sufficient funds to maintain himself until he becomes established, he is free to come here at any time. He can arrive with the necessary documents and be admitted the next day.	[DOT]


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Anybody from Europe?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I understood the minister to say that. The present regulations are bad because they separate families.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not know how many times I have to repeat the degrees of relationship. We admit the husband or wife, the son, daughter, brother or sister, together with the husband or wife and unmarried children, if any; orphan nephew and niece under twenty-one years of age of any person legally resident in Canada in a position to receive and care for such relatives. Surely that is clear enough.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: It is clear enough, but it breaks up the family. A man can bring in his son, but he cannot bring in his daughter-in-law. I have one such case that I have been trying to do something about. But when a man comes here and becomes a resident of Canada he can immediately apply to have his son and daughter brought in. It seems an anomalous thing.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend will have to go to work on the regulations. We cannot extend them this afternoon.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I am going to see that the regulations are broadened. The present regulations break up families.


John Horne Blackmore: I should like to bring to the attention of the minister a problem that I believe Canada should attend to now. For a long time we have as a nation been dreaming of the time when we should have a trans-Canada highway. I believe the time

Supply-Mines and Resources
has come to build such a highway, so that it will not be necessary for Canadians to submit to the indignity of going into a foreign country to get from their capital to their own coast. A great deal of interest has been generated recently in the four western provinces concerning a trans-Canada highway, and I should like to discuss that matter for a few minutes this afternoon.
Three routes have been proposed for a trans-Canada highway. The first one runs from Winnipeg to Saskatoon, Lloydiminster, Edmonton, Yellow'head pass, and from there direct to Vancouver. This one is called the Evergreen highway by those who are enthusiastic for it, and sometimes the Yellowhead highway.
The second runs from Winnipeg to Regina to Medicine Hat and from there to Calgary, Banff, and then by a circuitous route through the mountains down to Vancouver.
The third one is the southernmost route. This one goes from Winnipeg to Regina, to Medicine Hat, to Lethbridge and to Fernie, and from there to Cranbrook. Creston, Nelson, Trail, Rossland, Grand Forks, Penticton, Princeton, Hope, Vancouver, a rather direct route from Winnipeg to Vancouver.
It is my judgment, Mr. Chairman, and that of a good many others, that the one which ought to be built first is the southernmost route. I believe that ultimately Canada will find it to her advantage, for one reason or another, to have the three of these routes finished, and I would be an ardent supporter of the completion of each of them. After all, we should have one of them built first. I believe the first one should be the southernmost route.
There are a number of reasons why I take that stand. The first one is that the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia have apparently looked on the southernmost route as being the most desirable transprovincial route, and have therefore devoted a great deal of attention already to the construction of highways which follow more or less the route which I have indicated. These highways, in some cases fully completed, would constitute a part of the ultimately finished highway and would therefore render the completion of the trans-Canada highway along this route less expensive than would be the highway if it followed a route such as the Evergreen route proposed, which would require the complete building of a new road.
There is another aspect of this highway which is worthy of a great deal of attention from all Canada. Because of the Chinook
belt and the influence which it has upon the area over which it blows generally, a large part of this southernmost route would be easy to keep open throughout the year. I am not contending or arguing that there are not times when a highway, even the best of highways, in Canada will be blocked and will require clearing. But taking the matter as a whole I would say it would be much easier to keep this route open the year around than any other route that may be chosen.
Another argument in favour of this route is that it is direct, the shortest possible from Winnipeg to Vancouver, being on'ly in the neighbourhood of 1,400 miles. This everyone will recognize as a real advantage.
Another advantage of this route is the high degree of industrialization which has been achieved in the past along it. If we start at Winnipeg and go out to Vancouver we shall be surprised how many well developed industries there are; not, of course, to compare with the highly developed industries in Ontario and Quebec, but even considering the fact that these are in the three or four western provinces, they are well developed. The lumbering industry has reached a fine degree of development; the mining industry has reached a high degree of development; smelting has reached a high degree of development, as has also fruit farming. Sugar manufacturing has reached a high degree of development; also canning and many other industries established from Regina, through to Vancouver.
Another aspect of this route worthy of consideration is its tourist value. It is well known to all hon. members that Canada depends in large measure for her tourist trade upon the United States. The United States people in most cases will come to Canada in cars. The result is that they will look for a highway as soon as they reach the border. If they have to go two or three hundred miles to get to the first trans-Canada highway after they cross the border, they will be apt to cross the border back again before they reach the highway; but if we have this trans-Canada highway running along the southernmost route, at no point far removed from the United States border, tourists will reach this highway rather soon after crossing the border and will be encouraged by the fact of a first-class highway to go farther into the depths of Canada.
Another aspect of this question worthy of consideration in respect of tourists is the large number of tourist attractions that are to be found along the highway. All the way from Regina west to Vancouver anyone will see items of great interest along this highway, especially after one reaches the mountains.
Supply-Mines and Resources

In the mountains he will find scenery as beauteous as is to be found anywhere in the Rocky mountains. That beauty will be found all the way along this highway. There are other items of attractions which I shall probably refer to in a while, and which would make this highway an interesting tourist attraction in its own right.
Another matter worthy of consideration in the construction of a trans-Canada highway is the population which will be found along it. It is one of the regrettable things in connection with our trans-Canada railways that they have to traverse wide spaces, sometimes hundreds of miles in extent, with hardly any people. In building this trans-Canada highway from Winnipeg to Vancouver we would find a more densely populated area than can be found in any other straight line all the way over the prairie provinces and British Columbia. Nearly everyone will agree that, by computing the population of such cities as Regina, Moose Jaw, Medicine Hat, Lethbridge, Cran-brook, Femie, Nelson, Hope, Princeton, Ross-land and other centres along that highway, we should arrive at a total of population which would render it quite obvious that we would not be building a highway for little use.
Another matter worthy of consideration is the feasibility of this highway. We shall find that at almost any point from Winnipeg right through to Vancouver the material is to be found near where the highway is to be built; gravel of high quality and other materials necessary to build a highway are at hand. This, of course, will render the construction of the highway much less expensive than it would be if we had to transport the materials from a more or less remote point.
In connection with my own constituency I think it would be well to point out, as an example of the constituencies through which this highway would pass, the truth of the general statements which I have already made. In respect of the Lethbridge federal riding the trans-Canada highway would be extremely useful. We have the sugar factories; we have the coal mines; we have canning factories and a great many other industries.
In the Lethbridge federal riding the route would be rather easy to keep open the year around compared with routes in other parts of the province. The route would go almost straight through the Lethbridge federal riding from Medicine Hat to Fernie.
As I have indicated, the industrialization which has been achieved in that area is of a high order. There are two sugar factories, one of which is at Raymond and one at Picture Butte. Each one turns out a great deal of sugar and is highly valuable in the

economy of Canada. We have ranching of a nigh order in which we produce beef and mutton in great numfofers. We have beef and mutton feeding, using the by-products which come from the sugar industry. We have three canning factories in the constituency; we have cheese factories and a considerable number of butter factories. Coal mining is extensively developed.
We have-a great many fine natural resources in the Lethbridge federal riding. We have extremely good land. We have an abundance of water for irrigation. We have four irrigation projects in the Lethbridge federal riding now supplying water to upwards of 100,000 acres of land. We have under consideration, as hon. members well know, a new irrigation project called the Lethbridge southeast water conservation project, in which it is proposed to bring 350,000 acres more of excellent land under irrigation. We have a fine climate and good water.
The tourist value of the Lethbridge federal riding is of a high order. We have the Waterton Lakes national park, one of the finest national parks in Canada. It is only a few miles from the United States border, and not far from the Logan Pass highway in that nation. Naturally people would come over from the United States to go to this park. If they knew they could reach a fine highway without too much inconvenience they would be attracted to that part of the country and' on into the inner regions of Canada. From the Waterton Lakes on to Pincher creek there is an exceedingly fine view as one drives along the road going north and looks to the lefthand at the mountain ranges. I have driven over that road many times; I never weary of looking at the great variety of mountain scenery to be found there.
We have other items such as Cardston Temple, built by the Latter Day Saints church. It is one of the most beautiful buildings to be found on the American continent.
Coming into Lethbridge federal riding is the highway which runs from the United States through Cardston straight north to connect with the Alaska highway. If we had the trans-Canada highway passing through Lethbridge it would cross the Alaska highway with all the possibilities which would accrue from that set-up. The population of Lethbridge federal riding is rather dense for a prairie constituency. We have 16.800 in the city of Lethbridge. We have a considerable number of people in the smaller towns like Cardston. Raymond, Magrath, Warner, Milk River. Taber and various other towns.

Supply-Mines and Resources
The provincial government of Alberta is spending a great deal of money this year on the building of highways in that area. It is proposed at an early day to finish off the highway from Medicine Hat to Lethbridge and to continue that highway from Lethbridge through Cardston to Waterton Lakes park, which would fit in exactly with the picture I was outlining a minute or two ago. There is under construction and soon to be completed by the Alberta government one of the finest pieces of highway to be found in western Canada, namely, that from Coutts to Lethbridge; that is to be a modern, standard highway. This highway would, of course, be tributary to the trans-Canada highway as it passed through Lethbridge. This fact would indicate how desirable the trans-Canada highway through that area would be, because a great many other subsidiary highways would cross and recross the highway, making it highly valuable from the point of view of tourists and from the point of view of general usefulness to the people. I could say a great deal more about this route for the trans-Canada highway, because I have given considerable attention to it, but I feel it would not be advisable for me to hold up the committee any longer. I should just like to offer a few suggestions and draw a few conclusions from what I have already said.
In the first place, I believe the trans-Canada highway route should be planned at the present time. All four western provinces are today spending a great deal of money and taking a good deal of interest in this highway. If the federal government, through the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply, were to approach the ministers of public works of the four western provinces and suggest that they have, with him, a round-table discussion to determine what would be the most desirable route and what would be the most desirable standard of highway to build, I am sure that the building programme which is in progress at the present time could be fitted into the broad general scheme in a way which would be impossible at any future time I would, therefore, suggest that this highway be completely planned not later than September, 1947. The route should be finished not later than 1948. The construction of this highway has been long overdue. It should have been built before the war. It could not very well be built during the war. It should not be deferred any longer. Now is the time. This highway should be completed and in perfect running order from Winnipeg through to Vancouver not later than the end of 1948. I suggest that should be the goal set by the federal government.
The matter of costs enters in. It must be borne in mind that the four western provinces, not being highly industralized, do not have extensive resources from which to draw revenue. Neverthless they have great potentialities, and the contribution of wTealth which they make to the dominion as a whole is great. It w'ould, therefore, seem entirely appropriate that we suggest that the federal government pay one-half of the total cost of constructing this highway. Of course the provinces have been spending money on this highway for a great many years, but I would be of opinion that the provinces would feel quite happy with the situation if the federal government undertook to pay fifty per cent of the co-t, from January 1, 1946, up to the time w'hen the highway was finished, of the roads which would come to form that highway. That is, the federal government would say to the provinces, "Turn in a bill to us, certified and itemized, showing horv much money you have spent since January 1, 1946, on the highways which will be incorporated into this trans-Canada highway. We will give you a dollar for each dollar you have spent since January 1, 1946 along this highway; then we will pay fifty per cent of the cost of this highway for the future." There will be those who will feel that would not be a wise expenditure of public money, but there are reasons why that might be the most advantageous expenditure of public money which could be considered at the present time in the matter of transportation.
I shall say no more at the present time, Mr. Chairman, but I would commend most earnestly to the minister that he give the most careful consideration at the earliest possible day to the planning and construction of a trans-Canada highway which will run across western Canada from Winnipeg to Regina, to Medicine Hat to Lethbridge and from Lethbridge through the Crowsnest pass to Nelson and Hope, British Columbia, and on to Vancouver.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Before the committee proceeds farther, I would move that it rise, report progress and ask leave to sit later this day.
Progress reported.



CRIMINAL CODE


[Stage Direction]
On the order;
Consideration of amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 364, an act to amend the criminal code.
Right Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Justice):: A message was received yesterday from the senate informing this house that the

Supply-Mines and Resources
senate hadi passed Bill No. 364, an act to amend the criminal code, with amendments. A list of the amendments will be found at page 774 of the Votes and Proceedings of Thursday, July 10. A large number of amendments are proposed. They are all acceptable to the government with the exception of two. The two amendments which are not acceptable are the second and the fifteenth. The second amendment, by language which is not complete or accurate, seeks to restore the section to the form in which it was introduced in this house in the first instance. There was lengthy discussion of that amendment in the house, and it was the feeling of the house that it should not stand in the form in which it was introduced. Therefore the government has come to the conclusion that it should not accept that amendment of the senate. I may say that I am of the opinion that possibly the section, in the form in which it passed this house, is susceptible of some improvement; and I am convinced that the section, in the form in which it passed the senate, is susceptible of improvement. It would appear to me that the section would be the appropriate subject of a conference between managers of the two houses, and it would be agreeable to me if the other house took the necessary steps to bring such conference about. As I understand the rules, this would be done if they insist on their amendments. In any event I feel I have no option but to move that this amendment be not concurred in.
The second amendment is the fifteenth amendment which is in relation to a serious matter. It makes certain acts murder which are not now murder; and, if I understand the amendment correctly, goes farther in that direction than does the section as passed by the house. The government does not feel prepared to accept that amendment.


David Arnold Croll: Would the minister mind
telling us what they did?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The section amended is
section 260 of the criminal code, which states:
In case of treason and the other offences against the king's authority and person mentioned in part II, piracy and offences deemed to be piracy, escape or rescue from prison or lawful custody, resisting lawful apprehension, murder, rape, forcible abduction, robbery, burglary or arson, culpable homicide is also murder, whether the offender means or not death to ensue, or knows or not that death is likely to ensue.
Then follow paragraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d); and (d) is the amendment we inserted in this house:
(d) if he uses any weapon for the purpose of facilitating the commission of any of the offences in this section mentioned, or the flight of the 
offender upon the commission or attempted commission thereof, and death ensues as a consequence of such use.
After all, this was an important amendment which extends the English law, which, if I understand the authorities, would make such an offence manslaughter rather than murder in certain instances; but the senate amendment goes farther and substitutes for (d) the following words:
(d) if he uses or has in his possession any weapon and death ensues as a consequence of its use.
The element of intent is taken from the section as passed by this house. The words "for the purpose of facilitating the commission of any of the offences in this section mentioned, or the flight of the offender upon the commission or attempted 'commission thereof" are omitted, it being deemed, I imagine, that it might be very difficult for the crown to prove intent in those cases. It is my opinion that, the matter being of such importance, probably proof of intent should be necessary when we are making a case murder which otherwise would be manslaughter.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And what is the minister moving?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I move:
That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their honours that this house disagrees with their second and fifteenth amendments to the Bill No. 364, an act to amend the criminal code, for the following reasons:
"In the first case the amendment which is sought to be made by the senate is in language which has already been rejected by the house and which for this reason the house cannot accept.
In the second case, that is their fifteenth amendment, the amendment extends the operation of section 260 of the act beyond what the House of Commons contemplated or is willing to accept."


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Is the minister dealing
with the other amendments now?


James Lorimer Ilsley: We are agreeing to all the
others.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour) moved that the house go into committee to consider Bill No. 452, respecting the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company Limited.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Golding in the chair.

Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting
On section 1-Works declared for the advantage of two or more provinces.
Angus MacInnis: If this bill carries, will the minister say what legislation will then apply to this company and its employees? Will it be P.C. 1003 as amended, and then the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act when that order in council expires?


Humphrey Mitchell: It will be P.C. 1003 at the moment, and the new legislation when the order in council expires.


Angus MacInnis: Is P.C. 1003 to continue in effect until the new bill comes in?


Humphrey Mitchell: It will continue in effect until the emergency powers legislation expires, which I believe will be March 31 next. It may, of course, be extended.


Angus MacInnis: And you expect that the other bill will be in effect before March 31, 1948?


Humphrey Mitchell: I hope so. It will be introduced early next session, and it will depend upon the expedition with which we operate. I would assume, however, that like other legislation the emergency powers may have to be extended. I am, of course, speaking merely as an individual.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 and 3 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
James Horace King: When shall the said bill be read a third time?


Angus MacInnis: I believe there was an understanding with the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) that this bill would not be proceeded' with until nine o'clock this evening. If the minister would agree to have third reading postponed until later this day I think that would meet the situation. I feel quite sure there is nothing in the bill with which the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre would take issue or would want to debate, but- if what I suggest could be done I would appreciate it very much.


Humphrey Mitchell: I would suggest that we let it go until tomorrow morning; then there will be no doubt about the matter.


Angus MacInnis: That will suit me even better.


James Horace King: Next sitting of the house.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Golding in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND RESOURCES

[Stage Direction]
130. Departmental administration, $183,177
Airs. STRUM:: I should like to draw to the attention of the government the necessity of doing something in order to provide roads. I am sure we have all been in the United States and have had the experience of feeling ashamed when our friends ask us when we are going to build highways in Canada. Not only do we lose a great deal of east and west traffic that we might have from the United States; we also lose a great deal of our own traffic. Man}'- of us have been guilty of hitting south as fast as possible in order to use the United States highways to make the trans-continental. I have hit for the closest port to take advantage of the concrete highways that one finds everywhere in the United States. We lose a great deal of our own money, which Canadians might be spending here, and we lose traffic that we might have in the tourist trade.
There is another aspect of this matter that has not yet been considered. When talking about transportation we must think in terms of railways, airways and highways. We would not dream of making any particular area, apart from the rest of Canada, pay for the railway passing through that territory, because all Canada pays for Canada's railways, and the operating and buliding costs are spread over the entire system. When considering a trans-Canada highway we must share the costs and not leave it entirely to the particular province through which the highway passes. When we consider the concentration of population in central Canada, for various reasons, we must come to the point where we spread the cost of building highways right across the country and absorb it as a nation.
In the west, as I need not remind the minister, our settlement is based on our rainfall, and we must have larger farming units. Where I live you cannot make a living on less than a half-section. You would not attempt to farm less than 300 or 400 acres; in fact, a section, or 600 acres, is the usual unit where I live. This means that we are bound, by our climate and geography, to have a smaller population than Ontario or Quebec; and if you force the province to bear the cost of building highways, if you tie it to the motor licence fee, your expenditure will be limited, because, if you have a small population, as we have in Saskatchewan, then the number of cars you have will be comparatively small; so

Supply-Mines and Resources

will the volume of gasoline and, in turn, the gasoline tax which will form the basis of revenue for the building of highways. Therefore, if you tie yourself to the number of cars and the number of people, and force the province to bear the entire cost, then it will be a long time before you have the kind of highways that we should have in a trans-Canada hook-up.
I should not like to say that we should have only one trans-Canada highway. I should not like to say that you should put it through my constituency, although, if you utilize the hardsurfaced road that already exists, the only paved highway, in Saskatchewan is in the path of my constituency, the one running between Winnipeg and Regina and going on through Moose Jaw and Swift Current. Number one, which is our best highway and the only one which has black top, and which has the heaviest population running alongside the main line of the Canadian Pacific railway from the oldest settlements, runs through the most heavily populated and the best built-up part of the province. It happens to run through my constituency, but I would not urge the government to build a highway merely because I happen to represent that area. But this is the highway which the province keeps open the longest. It has less snow than the northern route. The province has maintained this as the last highway to close and the first one to open in the spring, and as one listens to the weather reports, as we all do in the winter broadcasts, they always quote No. 1 as open when the others are closed.
I think we should try to have more than one highway; we should assist the provinces to have feeders running north and south, because, if we are to route traffic from the United States and Ontario to the prairie provinces, we shall have to establish some north and south highways too. But if you are thinking of the cost, I would imagine that the federal government would be interested in utilizing the best existing road to get the best highway established as quickly as possible. If they are doing that, then the number one, between Brandon and Regina, is the best existing road. It has black top through a part of it now, and it would be the easiest to maintain because it would have the least snow, and it already has a certain standard.
I would therefore ask the minister to consider building a road that we shall not have to apologize for. When you talk about roads in my province people all say, "What roads?" We really have no roads worthy of the name, when you consider the highways they have in every part of the United States. In January

I travelled to the gulf of Mexico and Florida, and never saw a gravel road anywhere, and in many cases there was a four-lane highway. In our country gravel is considered a good road. It is time we moved up our standards and had a real highway from one end of Canada to the other, which would bear the kind of traffic worthy of a great, rich and growing nation like Canada.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: I do not think I can add to what the hon. member for Qu'Appelle has said. We may not always agree with her, but no one could express the opinion of every Canadian on this subject better than she did just now. I am going to speak purely from the tourist point of view and, if you like, from the selfish point of view of dollars and cents. Last year we had $232 million brought into Canada through the tourist trade. Well, if we ship our lumber, wheat and everything else something is going out of our country, whereas if we bring in United States money through the tourist traffic we are taking nothing out of the country.
Naturally I am a little privileged in this connection, coming as I do from the most beautiful part of Canada, the Fraser valley. They even look at the flying saucers. We have something there. I believe the hon. member for Qu'Appelle is right. Last year I drove home, taking twenty days and going 6,000 miles through the United States. If hon. members will stop talking I will drive home again in a day or two all through the United States; and why am I driving through the United States? Because they have the roads. And I will spend all the money I have to spend in the United States. We are asking tourists to come here. Our scenery is the one thing we have to sell which takes nothing out of the country, but we do not provide the tourists with the highways they are used to. I do not know anything about Saskatchewan, but I know something about my own province, which is adjacent to the state of Washington. If we can build roads, the connecting links from the United States, we certainly have not done so. The roads that we expect United States tourists to travel on when they come into Canada are a disgrace. Vancouver is the third city in Canada, with the most vocal mayor on the North American continent, and we have a cow trail leading into that city.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The most vocal in the world.


George Alexander Cruickshank: We expect United States tourists to come in and travel on that trail. Why should the province be expected to build that highway when it would bring money into the country at a time when we

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are hearing so much about foreign exchange, and are being told that we cannot d,o anything about that situation? Apparently the federal government is afraid to spend money to build highways. I believe it is good common-sense business to expend money in the construction of highways across Canada that would connect with the United States border. This would encourage the tourist traffic and enable us to sell them something which cannot be equalled in any other part of the world, our Canadian scenery.


Mr. McKAY:: I have a few words to add
in support of what has been said already with regard to the construction of a trans-Canada highway. It seems to me that in this day and age good highways are almost indispensable. Modern civilization is almost wholly dependent upon good transportation. To build roads anywhere in Canada is an expensive undertaking, and the completion of the trans-Canada highway would be a costly venture for the provinces to attempt. Thar, is wli3' I advocate that something should be done, preferably at this session, but at least by next session, to expedite the construction of a trans-Canada highway through the western provinces at the earliest possible moment. This should be on the basis of a fifty per cent contribution by the federal government, because I believe it is generally considered that the trans-Canada highway should be a national undertaking and not left to the individual provinces to complete.
I may say that neither one of the highways which have been referred to in Saskatchewan runs through my constituency, but I would be inclined to favour at the moment the construction of the highway passing through Moose Jaw and Regina, The present No. 1 highway enters at Fleming and goes through to the western border where it links with the Alberta highway system. It is approximately 450 miles long, and I question if there is any place in Canada where highway construction could be carried on as cheaply. Approximately 110 miles are surfaced with what is called black top. This probably does not measure up to the standards of better highways, but it serves our purpose and is much better than the roads we have been using in past years. The rest of the highway is gravel. The government of Saskatchewan is paving some 239 miles of road this year and some of that paving will be on that particular highway. Another bit of paving will be on highway No. 39, which links up with a United States highway coming up from Minneapolis and St. Paul and passing through Weyburn. It is proposed to complete that road by 1948, and that is another reason 83166-349J
why I advocate the completion of highway No. 1. This would provide a link to the east and west for people, tourists in the main, coming from the south. They could then continue on their way into Alberta, to Banff, Calgary and Vancouver or Winnipeg to the east.
There are many other arguments in favour of the completion of the highway which I shall not go into now. Everybody knows that highways constitute a great national asset. They encourage tourists among other things. These days much of our freight is handled by trucks and good highways facilitate their movement. We have great hopes of irrigation programmes in the west. When that day comes-and I hope it will in another :.wo or three years-thousands of good people will come to southern Saskatchewan and there will be an additional need for good highways. That is another reason why we advocate the construction of a paved highway through the southern part of the province.
Saskatchewan is regarded as a prairie province with very little attraction for the tourist, but a person passing through there might be greatly surprised if he took No. 1 highway and stopped at the points of interest. For example, there is Moosomin, a town of some 2,000 people, which was the birthplace of that great Canadian, General McNaughton. Then there is the Indian Head experimental farm. I need not mention Regina, because the hon. member for that riding is capable of doing that. Moose Jaw is on that same highway, and the hon. member for Moose Jaw has told the committee a great deal about that city. There are also Swift Current and Maple Creek, both of which are famous, not only for the meat packing plants that are located there, but because of cowboys, rodeos and that sort of thing. There are a number of attractions in Saskatchewan. I appeal to the minister to get on with the job of constructing the trans-Canada highway. If it is not feasible to build both roads, let us have one at least.


Mr. BENTLEY:: I want to assure the committee that this is not a filibuster, and I want also to tell our northern Canadian neighbours that neither is it an attack on their estimable selves. We would like them to have a highway as well. I want to continue the support for a project which we believe is necessary. Other hon. members have given reasons why this highway is necessary and I agree with them. We probably need more than two trans-Canada highways, but we certainly need one immediately to follow the route of highway No. 1.
The paving of that highway is partly completed, and it is the most direct route to those
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going to the third largest city in Canada located on the west coast. We believe it is the proper one to build. If that one is completed, as recommended by the hon. member for Lethbridge, by 1948, that in itself would lead to the more rapid completion of the northern highway. If feeder roads are built running north and south by the province and the municipalities that would create more demand and pressure for the northern highway. I assure you that I am not trying to create a division. As I say, the reasons why this road should be completed have been stated before. I speak with authority only for the little area I represent, but in that area we have many of the attributes mentioned by other hon. members.
I will admit that our population is not as dense as that of Toronto, Montreal or even Ottawa; in fact it is not as dense by any standard of measurement you care to use. But they are energetic and, because of that, they have created a number of interesting industries and are in the process of creating others outside of the agricultural industry which in themselves are well worth seeing. Anyone who would like to see a large flock of sheep handled by an expert shepherd and expert dogs will be well repaid for taking a trip through there. Anyone who would like to see large herds of beautiful white-faced cattle travelling and grazing over the lovely ranch lands in the Cypress hills would be well advised to take a trip through there. To see beauty one does not necessarily have to go to the mountains or to the St. Lawrence river. Come to our flax-growing areas when the flax is in bloom, and you will see no more beautiful sight as a tourist attraction. Our irrigation projects and other industries are opening up new avenues for human energy to be expended for the expansion of our country as a whole. When these things are taking place, if a highway goes through there, it will not only lend itself to tourist traffic but facilitate the development of those industries, and, by so doing, will open that particular gateway to further highways further north, as far north as it is necessary to have them.


William Irvine: Mr. Chairman, I have been studying the face of the minister while this discussion has been going on and trying to guess from his granite countenance whether he intends to build any highway at all. Not having been able to come to a conclusion from looking at him, I am going to address a question to him in regard to the matter. It would appear to me that there has been a sort of inter-party conspiracy to talk about a

southern highway through the dust-bowl of Canada, where there is no beauty and very little wealth.


Mr. PROBE:: Have you seen our girls?


William Irvine: I think it may be taken for granted that we all really want a highway across Canada, and perhaps more than one. I hardly expect, however, that the minister will build more than one before the next session. But if he is going to build only one I think we ought to know which one it is to be.
I want to draw to his attention that most of the beauty and most of the wealth of the western provinces lie in the northern section, and I would ask him, before building any highway across Canada, to give some thought to a trans-Canada highway via Jasper and from there on to the coast-


Mr. LOW:: Over the Evergreen route.


William Irvine: Yes, that is the kind of route we want to get. I could speak at length on the merits of the different routes, but I do not wish to take up the time of the committee. I suggest that the minister assure us that he will at least give consideration to that route I mentioned before he plunges in any wild way into building a road to the west across Canada. I would also ask him to consider joining that road to the great Alaska highway, so that we may have a complete crossing, not only across Canada, but right up north to Nome.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can assure my hon. friend that a great deal of consideration will be given to the matter before we build any such roads. When the decision has to be made as to the route, the provinces involved will be consulted, and an attempt will be made to reach an agreement.


Solon Earl Low: That is the proper way.


Mr. ARCHIBALD:: If consideration is
being given to the building of a highway across this country I should like to bring out one or two points. All the transportation facilities of this country run north of the 49th parallel of latitude, so that one would think that all Canada consisted of was that northern fringe which exists north of the United States. A mistake was made originally in putting two railroads across Canada just north of the 49th parallel. They should have been laid farther north, so that feeder lines could have served them from both north and south. In view of the development that has taken place in the north and the desire of the government to develop the north I think consideration should be given to a more northerly route for a trans-

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Canada highway. There is also this advantage that the grades are better through the mountains. That has been proved by the Canadian National Railways, as anyone who has taken a trip through the Crowsnest pass can see for himself. One farmer decided, after going through the pass, that if he wanted any further excitement he would run up two poles to his barn door and run up and down on them. So I would urge the minister to consider the Y'ellowhead pass route.


Mr. WYLIE:: After listening to the remarks made by the hon. member for Cariboo, I must say a few words about the so-called dust-bowl to which he referred. I believe that in that so-called dust-bowl we have more scenery than there is in the north country. Go through one of the irrigation districts and you would think you were down here, the scenery is so beautiful. The only difference between our irrigation areas and the country down here is that our soil is much better.
The minister has been given many suggestions as to routes through the western provinces. I believe that three routes have been suggested. I feel that it should be a southern route to start with. However, in the past I have supported a route through Calgary, which, of course, is not the one that has received most support this afternoon. I believe that the highway should not be built too close to the southern part of the western provinces but should go perhaps through Calgary. We in Medicine Hat are on the "Y" of the trans-Canada highway, as the road is sure to go through there whether it branches out to Lethbridge or Calgary. The main thing is that we want a trans-Canada highway, and I am sure that Canadians generally want it as soon as they can get it. There is no reason why we should have to travel through the United States to get home from Ottawa.


George Hugh Castleden: The route of a trans-Canada highway west of Winnipeg naturally would cause some division between those who represent the northern portions and those who represent the southern portions of the western provinces. I think each of the routes has. some qualification, and naturally many people in the area would like to see the route through there. The Evergreen route is one which now passes through the great populous areas of these provinces in the west. I do not say that because we wish to take away from the southern routes. We should like to know from the minister whether there is any possibility of building a trans-Canada highway within three years. If the minister can give us that information, perhaps we can come to some agreement. We appreciate his statement that
when the government is deciding which route should be built or what routes shall be built through these provinces the provincial governments will be taken into consideration. Along with that they will be working on a plan which will meet with general satisfaction.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In reply to the question, the government has from time to time given assistance to the provinces in the building of highways. As far as the federal government is concerned, the decision ihas rested in part, on the level of unemployment. When the unemployment situation was beyond the power of the provinces to deal with, the government has joined with the provinces in a programme of public works. Naturally, the programme of a trans-Canada highway has had an important place in such programmes. My ihon. friend knows that a new financial agreement has been made with certain provinces, which has placed those provinces in a better financial position than previously. It has not been possible to obtain agreement with all the provinces on a programme of public development. At the moment, the government is not in a position to make any commitments as to when or whether it will join with the provinces in a programme for a trans-Canada highway.


George Hugh Castleden: A relief project.


Mr. HANSELL:: Living as I do in the southern part of Alberta, and having a constituency which is in the foothills of the Rockies, it seems to me that I, too, should get into this debate on an appropriate all-Canada highway. I must confess that I was a little shocked and surprised to hear the minister almost confess that a trans-Canada highway was dependent upon the next depression when unemployment would be a problem.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If I may reply, I would say that I am astonished that my hon. friend suggests that the provinces could not possibly build any highway without federal help.


Ernest George Hansell: I did not suggest that; somebody else may have done so. But I am shocked to think that the present government is looking forward to doing something in respect of highways by a method of relief camps. That is a vital principle. However I do not suppose that any public moneys can be spent for public works any more advantageously or appropriately than for an all-Canada highway, and one that is adequate to maintain real tourist traffic and attract that tourist traffic to Canada.
Not so long ago I remember reading one of the reports of the senate committee on tourist traffic. I was really amazed to find
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the evidence submitted to that committee showed that there was more money coming into Canada from tourist trade than through all our foreign trade combined. When we think of that it is amazing. Our government seems to spend a great deal of. time, energy, effort and argument on the building up of foreign trade. It has its trade commissioners in almost every part of the globe to maintain trade at a huge expense, and yet it is a bigger business for Canada to deal in tourist trade and tourist attractions which bring in more money than all our foreign trade combined. That was the evidence brought out in the senate committee. That is quite a thing. Therefore we have need to think of this highway in the light of our tourist trade.
I have heard arguments sometimes that all hon. members will want such a highway to go through their own constituencies. I do not have to argue the point very much because I know very well it is going through mine. There is no doubt at all. When anyone thinks of tourist trade throughout Canada itself, he does not think of it without thinking in terms of Banff, Lake Louise, the Columbia ice fields, the Windermere highway, and so forth.
The hon. member for Cariboo says that it should go through Cariboo. I know that when I talk with people and mention Cariboo they say, "Who is he?" Or if I should mention the Evergreen highway, they do not know anything about that. If I should mention the Yellowhead highway they will say: "We have heard of redheads; we have heard of roundheads; we have heard of fatheads; we have heard of all sorts of heads, but a yellowhead is a new one on us." But if we just mention Banff, Lake Louise, the Columbia ice fields or Windermere or even the Prince of Wales ranch everybody knows where it is. People sometimes ask me where I am from. If I give them the name of my own town they do not know where that is; but if I say, "You have heard of the Prince of Wales ranch," they will say "yes." When I say, "well, he is my neighbour", they then know where I live.
The southernmost highway is bound to connect with those great tourist attractions therefore I know it is going through there anyway. The minister should get busy on this. He will be able to make a lot of money for this country if he does. Do not leave it, please, for a hand-out in the way of dole when it comes to relief.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again this day.
[Mr. Hansell.l


John Ritchie MacNicol: Before you leave the chair, Mr. Chairman, I should like to know if the committee is to sit at seven o'clock.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is a bill having to do with radio broadcasting which will be introduced by the appropriate minister at seven o'clock.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have been sitting here all afternoon. I should like to see the minister's estimates get through. We have had a talk on everything under the sun except these estimates.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I agree.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I do not like to waste time in this way. I cannot be here tomorrow, and I want to say something on one item.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We expect to go on shortly after seven o'clock.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am not going to permit the radio bill to be introduced if it will cause a discussion. I will permit the introduction, but that is all.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Permit the resolution to get through and the bill to be introduced.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If it means that the minister will make a speech, no; we want to get on with the business of the house.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at seven o'clock.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. J. McCANN (Minister of National Revenue and Minister of National War Services) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to present a measure to amend the Canadian Broadcasting Act, 1936, to provide that the Minister of Finance shall deposit to the credit of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation the gross amount of the moneys received in each year from licence fees in respect of private receiving licences and private station broadcasting licences without deducting there-

Canadian Broadcasting Act
from any costs of collection or administration; with a consequent charge to the government for such costs of collection and administration.
Motion agreed to, and the house went into committee, Mr. Golding in the chair.
Donald Methuen Fleming: On the understanding which the minister has indicated privately, that on the second reading of the bill there will be full opportunity to discuss the two reports on radio broadcasting, we are not. offering any remarks on the resolution stage.


Mr. McCANN:: That is correct, Mr. Chairman.


Ernest George Hansell: Before you leave the chair. Mr. Chairman, I have one additional question. When is it expected that the bill will be presented for second reading? I am in the same position as the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming). I want to have something to say on this bill. I can say it now, but I wish to accommodate the minister and the house; if I can; and I am quite willing to say what I have to say on the bill, on the assurance which has been given. When will the bill be presented for second reading?


James Joseph McCann: We assume that, after the passing of the resolution, we shall have first reading. Then second reading of the bill will be called; and if the house is agreeable and if we have unanimous consent, we would be prepared to go ahead with the second reading. Of course it is necessary to have that consent. If we do not have it. second reading will have to be put over until a later day. In any event, the undertaking still holds, that on second reading of the bill there will be free discussion both of the bill itself and of the report of the radio broadcasting committee.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. McCann thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 453, to amend the Canadian Broadcasting Act, 1936.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and bill read the first time.
Mr. McCANN; Mr. Speaker, if we may have the unanimous consent of the house, we should like to proceed with the second reading of the bill.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I should like to give that consent, but the Acting Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Howe) sat in this house all last evening and he has been here all day. Others have also sat here to take part in the discussion of his estimates. I for one will not give consent.


James Horace King: When shall the bill be read a second time?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Next sitting of the house.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Golding in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND RESOURCES

[Stage Direction]
130. Departmental administration, $183,173.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I wish to make a few brief remarks in connection with this item, and to support the remarks made this afternoon by the hon. member for Lethbridge and others. I think there is general agreement with regard to the necessity for the building of a trans-Canada highway and the improvement of a trans-Canada highway system. If you will read the history of the Roman empire, Mr. Chairman, of 'the B-itish empire, and of the United States, I thing you will find that the development of any country depends upon the development of a satisfactory highway system. If you read Roman history you will find that, when the Romans occupied Britain, the Roman consuls and other officials of that kind pointed to the fact that if they were to develop Britain they would have to develop the highways of that country. The same applies to the British empire. With regard to India particularly, I remember reading some remarks made by one of the prominent officials governing India who, in the British House of Commons, pointed out that the development of India must be based on the development of the highways. The same thing goes for the United States. Quite recently the United States passed* a large vote for the development of highways by the cooperation of the federal and state governments. In the last month or so, even the small republic of Mexico has voted S500,000,000 for the development of trans-Mexico highways. I think there is general agreement that we need to develop our trans-Canada highway system. I do not believe there is any opposition to that from one end1 of Canada to the other, if we are to develop our natural resources and take advantage of our tourist possibilities in the future. In that connection I wish to quote the report of the senate committee of last year on the tourist traffic:
Almost every witness appearing before your committee stressed the need of better roads if tourist traffic was to expand. The prevailing opinion was that Canada had unlimited tourist attractions. To make them accessible, allweather highways were necessary and federal assistance would be required to assist in the provision of the main arteries of approach, particularly from the United States.
I do not think there is any question about that. As a member representing a British Columbia riding, I want to deal with aspects
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of the question that refer particularly to my province. I say without hesitation that if British Columbia is to be satisfactorily serviced with highway transportation we shall require to have three routes through the mountain areas of that province: First, the southern, transprovincial route; second, the Kicking Horse pass or Big Bend route, and, thirds, the Yellowhead pass route. In this connection, while we believe that one of these routes should receive priority when it comes to construction, I do not think we shall be satisfactorily served, owing to the nature of the country, until all three routes are constructed.
This evening I wish to refer briefly to the southern transprovincial highway between Hope in British Columbia and Lethbridge in Alberta. As far as the physical possibility of building the route is concerned, that has been proved, because we now have a highway of a sort in existence between Hope and Lethbridge. There might be some criticism of that route, because at one point at the present time it has to cross the Cascade mountains at an elevation of 5,400 feet, and the Rossland summit at an elevation of 4,400 feet. As a solution of those two difficulties, however, first of all we have the suggestion by the Rossland board of trade that arrangements should be made for a diversion into United States territory for a distance of five miles in depth and thirty miles in length between Rossland and Grand Forks, British Columbia; or, second, there is the possibility of building a tunnel to reduce the elevation to which the present highway goes in the Cascade mountains.
That is a very small matter when one comes to compare it with the possibilities which would result from the development of the whole highway. As far as the Big Bend or Kicking Horse highway is concerned, that is much more difficult to keep open under winter conditions, owing to the greater fall of snow, than the southern transprovincial highway. Further, in support of the remarks of the hon. member for Lethbridge, I would say that the distance between Winnipeg and Vancouver is shortened by the use of this highway to 1,400 miles.
When it comes to the question of population, anyone who has studied the population of British Columbia realizes that, with the exception of the coast cities, the great bulk of the population resides south of the main line of the Canadian Pacific railway, and if this highway were built it would serve a population of about 125,000. In addition, there are certain definite economic advantages. Along the route of that highway we have the smelter 
of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company, which last year produced $60,000,000 worth of mineral and other products. In addition, we have various other subsidiary industries in connection with the production of poles and, in the near future, the production of pulp throughout that area. As far as mining is concerned, if the road between Lethbridge and Hope were built it would serve one of the richest mining districts in British Columbia. As far as the lumbering industry is concerned, between Lethbridge and Hope at the present time about 200.000,000 feet of lumber are produced, in addition to large quantities of cedar poles which are supplied to markets in Minneapolis and New York, as well as other timber products. As far as agriculture is concerned, taking the Kootenay, Arrow lakes and Okanagan valleys we have a total production of fruit products amounting to some $25,000,000. As far as tourist advantages are concerned, we are very close to the international boundary. Our feeder roads would connect with United States roads and permit the influx of large numbers of tourists who wish to visit the national parks; who wish to see the beauties of the Cascade range, the Monaskee range, the Selkirk range and the Rocky mountain range and also the many hot springs that abound throughout the district. The fishing and hunting in the area between Lethbridge and Hope is unexcelled in any part of Canada.
There is no question but that the development of this route will service the greatest commercial and industrial area in the interior of British Columbia; and, for the money expended, will produce greater returns than the development of any other area in British Columbia at the present time. Last year the government of British Columbia expended some $600,000 on the development of this route between Hope and the Alberta border of the province, and this year they are expending some $100,000.
We in the southern part of British Columbia realize that, before our province can be adequately serviced w'ith trans-Canada highways, we must have the completion of the three routes I have mentioned. I believe all three should be included in the plans for the construction of trans-Canada highways in the future. But because of the large population in the interior of British Columbia south of the main line, because of the large industrial, agricultural and lumbering developments, we believe the route between Lethbridge and Hope should receive priority. The construction and improvement of this route have the support of all the boards of trade between

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Vancouver and Lethbridge, of all the service organizations, of all the farmer organizations and all other groups within this area, and I urge early action by the government on this project. I urge that the minister give serious consideration to the opinion of these people. As was evidenced this afternoon, we have the support of hon. members from Alberta, from Saskatchewan and from Manitoba. So far as the extension of the trans-Canada highway is concerned, I say the southern provincial highway through the mountains should have priority.
I urge that the minister consider on a fifty-fifty basis early action on the southern route in British Columbia, and that, in addition to that, preparation and plans be made for the development of the Kicking Horse pass and Yellowhead routes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would call to the hon. member's attention the fact that, whereas . Canada has not made provision for the construction of the trans-Canada highway at this time, it has introduced in the supplementary estimates a vote of 8200,000 to commence the surfacing of the Windermere highway, which is a start in the direction my hon. friend is advocating.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am glad to hear that.


Mr. MATTHEWS (Kootenay East):: Mr. Chairman-, it is agreed on all sides that a programme of highway construction for Canada is needed at this time. I- have received a number of communications from different organizations in my constituency, and I feel I should say a word with respect to this particular project. I am not at all opposed- to the construction of highways across Canada, whether it be by the southern route or the northern route. But. inasmuch as the southern route would go through the most densely populated part of my constituency, I feel naturally that that highway should have priority in construction. When that work is done we should look toward the building of other highways; whether they should be through the northerly or the central part of the province remains to be . seen.
In the riding which I have the honour to represent, and through which this southern highway now runs we have a highly industrialized area. We have the coal mining district of the Crowsnest pass; we have the hard-rock mining of Kimberley, the area from which all the ore is extracted for the Trail smelter.
We have, too, a great deal of lumbering in that part of the country, which is contiguous to the southern highway. Not only that, but it runs through a highly productive fruit belt
known as the Creston valley area, in which some of the finest fruit of British Columbia is produced.
One hon. member this afternoon tried to leave the impression with the committee that all the scenic beauty is in northern British Columbia. I can only say that he has not yet travelled through the southern area, because, if he did, he would learn that his remarks were just sour grapes. The scenic beauty of southern British Columbia stands unrivalled.
Entering this area is one of the main highway routes from the United States, crossing the international boundary at Kingsgate. We have a splendid road system through that area, bringing the tourists into the famous Kootenay national park, and the Yoho and Banff national parks. Not only so, but in the district contiguous to this southern highway is one of the big-game areas of British Columbia. It is the area to which tourists and big-game hunters are coming from all parts of the world, whether they are looking for moose, elk, or grizzly bear.


William Irvine: They just pass through there on their way to the Cariboo.


James Herbert Matthews: They do not pass through, because they do not need to go beyond the area about which I have -been speaking.
We already have the southern route through the Crowsnest pass. All we ask the minister to do is to give consideration to the standardizing of this particular highway. So much has already been constructed, and I know others have spoken of the service which this highway could render.
Let me repeat that I am not opposed to the construction of other highways as they become necessary, but anyone passing through the southern part of British Columbia will find that that is the most densely populated area. This particular highway is now serving that area, and greater development lies ahead. I should think that everything in the area about which I have spoken would commend itself to the department, when it is considering the construction of highways.
I am pleased to know that the minister is considering highway development and construction; and we feel sure that when the merits of these various localities are fully considered the southern highway will stand foremost in their consideration.


John Oliver Probe: I appreciate the fact that hon. members in the committee are anxious to make headway, and I shall be brief. However I wish to impress upon the government the need for an enlightened attitude toward
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the building of highways. It seems to me that a trans-Canada highways policy is decades overdue. One remembers the golden age of Canada's expansion and development which followed the building of the railway systems some sixty or seventy years ago, when the Canadian Pacific railway was built across the country, followed by the Grand Trank and the Canadian Northern. The terrific impact of motor transport improvement and development compels a changed federal attitude toward the building of durable highways, something which is as important as the development of ports, harbours and foreign trade.
Perhaps the corduroy roads of the early pioneers were sufficient for those days. They made it possible for (those early settlers to get to the store, to the church or to the school. But we have passed the horse and buggy days-never to return, I (hope. I maintain that the provinces are not in a position adequately to finance road building today, any more than they were able six decades ago to finance the building of the railways. For example, only seven per cent of the population of Canada lives in Saskatchewan, but in that province is found thirty-eight per cent of the road surface. It is ridiculous to think that that province can maintain a standard of road building as high as that of other more densely populated areas.
This afternoon we discussed immigration. We need immigration, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the giving of more traffic to our railways so that they may be more self-sustaining. The same might be said with respect to the development of super-highways. I see no reason why immigrant labour forces languishing in displaced persons camps in Europe could not be transplanted to (this country, so that a benevolent government in Canada could give its citizens a highways system in keeping with the place Canada is expected to hold in the commonwealth of nations. The immigrants could help in the building of these highways.
I should like to be more specific with regard to the type of programme that we should have. When we passed the defence estimates the other night I drew the attention of the Minister of National Defence to certain gaps in our defence programme. We are spending a quarter of a billion dollars in the way that we followed in previous years. We are still carrying on the barrack-room type of training of our troops. If we are really going to defend this country we must be realistic. Those of us who have been in the services appreciate what it means to have a highly mobile force. We are satisfied that the railways do not permit the
rMr. Probe.]
moving of huge supplies of materials and large masses of men at a rapid rate from place to place. From the point of view of mobility we are defenceless, because the railways are vulnerable at their marshalling yards located at points like Winnipeg. If they were put out of working order it would immobilize hundreds of miles of defence regions.
We should have ancillary highway sytems. Standard or superstandard highways should be built and maintained, at least partly at the expense of the Department of National Defence. The engineers in the services could obtain worth-while training by actually constructing these highways. One system of highways right across the country should be built and maintained by the Department of National Defence as part of our defence programme. In addition-I am not speaking in terms of local patriotism, because Regina is on what is officially considered the trans-Canada highway-to that one main artery for the movement of vehicles to be maintained by the Department of National Defence-shall we say this would be highway No. 1?-there should be a colonization highway system to open up those areas of Canada so rich in natural wealth-these were mentioned bjr the hon. member for Cariboo-and this should be the joint responsibility of the federal government through the Department of Mines and Resources or the Department of Reconstruction and the provincial governments.
I think this is a practical suggestion, because it would permit the movement of troops from the defence point of view and would also tap our natural resources and open up colonization areas which are still unsettled. We should then have arterial roads running, from the international border, roads which would link up with the excellent United States roads, through to our northland, These roads could be financed by the provinces perhaps with loans from the federal government. If necessary, tolls could be charged on these lines originating at the border and running northward until capital costs wer* realized.
The programme I envisage is one main motor highway to be maintained by the Department of National Defence. Then there would be another main east-west built jointly by the provincial governments and the dominion Department of Mines and Resources or the Department of Reconstruction, for the purposes of opening up new areas and giving impetus to immigration into this country. Then there would be feeder lines running north and south to our rich lake lands and mineral resources which, would be constructed, in, the first instance by means of funds lent to the provinces and then paid for, if such were felt

Supply-Mines and Resources
necessary, by means of tolls. We would then have a comprehensive over-all system which, in terms of motor transport, would take us out of the horse and buggy days or, what is worse, the oxcart stage.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and geology branch-
131. Branch administration, $40,068.
John Ritchie MacNicol: First, I should like to
congratulate the department upon the good work it has done in the discovery of oil along the Athabaska river. Last session we voted some thousands of dollars to continue the drilling for oil in this area. In January las; I read in the Windsor Star, than which there is no better paper in Canada, a most interesting article in connection with the work of Doctor Hume, one of the departmental geologists. This reads in part:
Liquid bitumen of high quality, from three to 52 feet in thickness, carrying from 12 to 18 per cent bitumen by weight, in bituminous sands up to 220 feet thick, and tentatively considered to contain from 400 to 500 million barrels of bitumen. has been developed by recent diamond drilling over a two square mile area.
A company, I believe called Oil Sands Limited, has found equally large reservoirs of oil near that same area along the Athabaska river. The acting minister is familiar with the production of oil from the sands of the Athabaska river and he knows of the worldwide search for oil. The department of interior of the United States recently called together a conference of oil geologists, engineers and oil production men from all over the country, to ascertain whether all the known fields in the United States were being searched and whether full development was being carried on. As a result, the announcement was then made by the department that it was calculated that the total oil resources of the United States were about twenty-one billion barrels and that the known resources of the world were about forty-two billion barrels. Those are not very great resources, and therefore it is imperative that our Department of Mines and Resources should use every effort-and I believe it is doing so-to discover new sources. We have as good geologists and oil engineers in our department as there are in any other geological department and we should use eveiy effort to try to find more oil.
At the moment people in Toronto-and I presume this would apply to other cities-are fearful over being able to obtain sufficient oil for their home furnaces, not to mention business requirements. I tried recently to buy four oil burners for buildings which I own. I assume I could have bought the burners,
but the large company with which I deal- I believe in dealing with companies which are strong-advised me that they were unable to take on any more customers. The situation is really acute, and I hope the minister will be able to reassure the committee that there will be a greater production of oil in Canada.
In Washington they are making every effort to follow up every possible method for the synthetic production of oil from coal and oil shale. I see in their reports that they say there is more than half the coal in all the world in the United States. Canada, too, has an almost inexhaustible supply of coal, great coal beds that have not been touched at all, and if oil is to be produced from coal there is no reason why our department through its plant on Booth street, for which we shall be voting a sum of money shortly, should not make every effort to ascertain the most feasible method of extracting oil from coal to make it available for use in furnaces throughout Canada.
To me the problem before this country seems tremendous. If any other country-I shall not mention which one-wanted to make an attack on Canada, all it would have to do would be to shut off our coal and oil supplies and we would be through. Yet we have vast quantities of coal in this country, and according to departmental reports we have in the oil sands more than five times as much oil as there is in all the rest of the world combined. So I hope that some method will be developed whereby oil can be extracted from the sands. If as Doctor Hume's report says we have vast beds of pure bitumen, the minister must know that is something worth while. It is no great trick to take the oil out of bitumen, and if we have that quantity of bitumen there, there is no reason why we should not produce oil from it.
One company in Edmonton on whom I called last January and will likely call again next January, told me that they owned a property approximately 35 miles in length along the Athabaska river on the east side, three-quarters of a mile in depth back from the river and 250 feet in depth in the ground. Their tests show that they have a large volume of almost pure bitumen in vast quantity. During the war the company went to Washington and got in touch with the Reconstruction Finance Corporation for an investment of $30,000,000. I know the minister is familiar with that, because I saw a letter from Washington saying that if the company could get his approval the Reconstruction Finance Corporation would invest the $30,000,000 to develop these oil resources. They should be
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developed. If the departmental engineers were correct-and I have no reason to doubt that; this country spent very large sums of money to enable them to make their investigations during the war-there are vast quantities of oil up there. It cannot be extracted by any simple ABC method; but there is a proper method of extracting the oil, and after forty or fifty years of dealing with it and parliament having voted during the last few years quite a few hundreds of thousands of dollars for the construction of a small pilot plant on Booth street, I think it is high time that those engineers brought something forward. They are taking a long while to do so. Methods are known by which the oil can be extracted.
I had a letter yesterday from Utah-I am going there on my trip west-where they are making a great success with the McClave method which was developed by the very same man who had been in control of the Abasand plant at Fort McMurray. It was said that the plant at Fort McMurray was burned down. There was little to show that it achieved anything. But the McClave method is proving a success. I have a letter from the oil people at Vernal in Utah to visit Vernal to see their success in extracting oil from oil sands, and when I return home in the fall of the year I shall know a whole lot more about it.
I think it is up to this department, laying everything else to one side, to exert itself, and speedily, in defence of the homes of this country by developing some method of extracting oil from bitumen. In the report in the Windsor Star which I quoted, the department itself says there is a large volume to start with, four to five hundred million barrels of bitumen.
The other company to which I referred was ,lil Sands Limited. I saw their construction plans, which included a pipeline. They were going to extract the oil out of the sands and pipe it to Edmonton, which I think is the right thing to do, and construct a refinery at Edmonton. Their plans called for the delivery of 8,000 to 10,000 barrels of bitumen a day at Edmonton, there to be refined into oil. What I wish to impress on the minister is this, although he knows a lot about this, perhaps more than any of us, to push along his engineers and geologists and tell them to get on with the business as rapidly as they can. The Alberta government is making every effort to do likewise. When I was in Edmonton last winter I went to the university and saw their small pilot plant and discussed the question with their professors. They feel they have a good production method. The trouble

has been to get a refinery but they expect to have a refinery in operation down the river. In any event, no matter who does it, the Alberta government, Oil Sands Limited, or Abasand if it is ever resurrected-I believe it is out of commission now-they should push on and make every effort to overcome this country's oil fuel problem. For thirty-five or forty years this department has said and has been putting out circulars stating that there is a lot of oil up there and I think it is pretty nearly time we started to get some results. We cannot go on buying oil indefinitely from the United States. If that country ever shut off our supply we should be through.
There is another part of Canada in which there is oil. I spent some time in Hillsborough, New Brunswick, last September. I do not know if the minister was there but they spoke of him at different times. There I saw quite a substantial oil field with eighteen wells in operation. They were producing only seven barrels of oil a day per well but that is the United States average. There are 30,000 paying wells in the United States producing seven barrels each per day.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is mostly fuel gas, is it not?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes, they produce gas and oil; they ship the gas to Moncton and heat the city with gas. I heard down there that the gentleman who owned it lived in England and that he was not well. I have since heard from the hon. member for Royal that he has passed away. I heard also from other sources that the whole field and plant have been taken over by the Shell Oil interests-I am not sure that that is so-and that they are producing a lot more oil than was produced a year ago. If that is so, then there is another field, and goodness knows the maritime provinces need something like that to put them on the map. I should like to see them strike three or four big gushers down there that would put them on the map so far as oil production goes.
I do not want to delay the committee any longer, but I felt it my duty to talk about this. I know a good deal about it myself. I hope when I come back from Utah, I have a better report that a real improvement has been made in the method of extraction. I am going to suggest to the department that they communicate with the company. If they do not know the name of the company I shall be glad to give it to them. I suggest that they communicate with the company and get a report from the geologists and engineers down there, showing that they are getting results. I suggest that they send one or two geologists

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and engineers down there to see what they are doing. The fact is that we have to do something. If we have a resource to develop we should be making every effort to develop it. I am not going to find any fault with anything that has been done in the past. That does not do any good. I want to encourage those in authority to go forward, to look up and do the best they can to provide oil either from oil wells or from oil sands or coal. If the method th^it is now in operation in the United States for taking oil out of coal is to be used, and we have to get oil production from coal, let us do so. The fact is, we must become self-sufficient and independent so far as oil is concerned.
Anyone can visualize just what a tremendous thing it would mean in Canada. I said a moment ago that I recently tried to buy four oil burners. I could have obtained the burners, but the company told me they could not get the oil. There are many thousands of people in Canada in the same position. The production of oil burners would bring a lot of business; the production of pumps, tanks, steel for oil tanks and so on would mean a lot to this country. This country would bound along fast if we could only get oil, and this would be one source of production. Then we could also have oil produced from coal and shale as they are doing in Utah and Colorado. There is a lot of shale in New Brunswick. I know the acting minister is an engineer and knows a lot about these things. He knows more about them than the ordinary cabinent minister does. Our trouble in Canada is that we have appointed men to cabinet positions who are not always familiar with what they direct. Some of them do, but not all of them. I am not referring to the present minister. I know the acting minister does know something about these things. I suggest to him that he look carefully into all these problems of oil production and encourage his engineers and geologists, who are as good as the best, to put our country on the map in all these various items to which I have referred.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should like to say a few words on this subject. As hon. members know, the Department of Mines and' Resources has a strong geology branch, and particularly strong in the matter of oil geology. The results that are now being obtained in Alberta are due in no small part 'to the study made by the officers of this department, and to their cooperation with private industry.
I quite agree with my hon. friend that one of the great weaknesses in the Canadian
economy is the lack of sufficient oil to support our economy. That lack is even more serious than the lack of well distributed supplies of coal. During the war years the government spent about two and a half million dollars in a thorough exploration of the Abasand situation; that is, an exploration of the tar sands of northern Alberta. The department had been working on the problem in a small way for some twenty years. It was recognized that, when war broke out, the need for oil would be paramount. Exploration was speeded up. The exploration brought some excellent results. A thorough drilling of the location resulted in delivering, and mapping areas high in bitumen, areas that had considerable quantities of free bitumen. The programme has also perfected the process for separating bitumen from the sand. Unfortunately, just as the work was being finished, a fire burned down the separation plant and brought a halt to the investigation; but at that time practically all the results that had been hoped for had been achieved. We knew where the oil is located; we knew the approximate cost of recovery; we know a satisfactory process for separating oil from the sands. The department then decided that it had done its work as far as acquiring data on tar sands is concerned. The department was successful in making a verjr satisfactory agreement with the owners of the property under which, if oil is ever produced, or if other valuable substances are ever produced1 from the area, the government will recover all the money it has spent in the area. The government then retired from the tar sand situation.
The situation regarding petroleum, as it seems to be developing at the moment, is that it is expected that petroleum from wells will not last indefinitely. At the present time supply is below demand. That is a temporary situation which it may take two years to correct. The fact seems to be that drilling and development work have not kept up with the sharp increase in post-war demand. It seems to be the view of industry that in time, not in the time of myself or my hon. friend, oil will become scarce to the point where hydrogenation will be a practical development and when the tar sands will be a very valuable source of oil. At the moment, oil from tar sands is a matter of price. The price of oil from free flowing wells or pumped wells is so much below the cost of recovering oil from tar sands, or the cost of manufacturing oil by hydrogenation, that the latter are not within the economic realm.
As far as the Canadian situation is concerned. we are all feeling very much cheered by the recent discovery nt Leduc, Alberta. It
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is believed' by those responsible for the development of that field that we may have in Canada, a very great field, one that within the coming year or two may produce oil sufficient to supply the prairie provinces, plus considerable quantities for delivery outside that area. That would be a great relief. The supply of oil to the prairie provinces has been increasingly difficult, as production in the Turner valley field has diminished. It is a relief to mow that our supply problem on the prairies may be taken care of. It will be a tremendous aelp if we have surplus oil from that area which can be either exported1 in exchange for oil delivered to eastern Canada or perhaps piped down, to eastern Canada for delivery direct.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has the department kept in its own control the method that it promoted for taking oil out of the sand?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. Any discoveries that we have made have been given freely to the industry. It is the business of the department to promote production and not to make money out of discoveries.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On this same item may I ask the minister if he will make a statement regarding modern methods and devices of surveying the areas to determine mineral resources that might be located in them? I have in mind reports that are current about new ways of discovering rather quickly and easily whether there are valuable mineral resources underground. If he can add to that some remarks as to who is doing this in northern Canada and to what extent it is being done both by private industry and by his department, I should appreciate it. In asking for this statement I have in mind two points: first, the desire that we proceed with is much development as we can of the resources we have in northern Canada; second, the desire that the values which are there be conserved, so far as possible, for the Canadian people.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I assume that the device to which the hon. member refers is the flying magnetometer. It is more or less experimental in nature at the moment, but it does detect major changes in the structure of the earth and indicates areas which are likely to be mineralized. It is no more accurate than that, but it is a great help in exploring areas which can later be prospected more accurately. We have $30,000 in the estimates for experimental work on the flying magnetometer in Canada during the next current year. I might say that a licence has been issued to a United States firm which is doing work on the ftying magnetometer on the property of the Inter-
national Nickel Company. My deputy tells me that, there are three areas in Canada where work is being done. It is a means of prospecting which may turn out to be exceedingly important, and Canada expects to be in the forefront of the development.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch-
Airports, roads, buildings and water systems- construction and improvements-
V,7. Roads, $1,130,000.	*
George Hugh Castleden: This item provides $1,130,000 for the building of roads at Yellowknife. Will the minister give us some of the details with regard to the length of the roads, the type of road, who the contractor was, what the excavation was, whether the roads for this $1,130,000 are serviceable now, or whether they have been completed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This road is being built by the province of Alberta, It is built under agreement with the Department of Mines and Resources. The problem is unique, in that the purpose of the road is to connect the highway system of Alberta with the Yellowknife area of the Northwest Territories. There are about three hundred miles in Alberta and about eighty miles in the Northwest Territories. The federal government is, of course, responsible for the full cost of building roads in the Northwest Territories; but owing to the importance of the road in opening up an important section of the Northwest Territories, the government agreed with the province of Alberta to pay at least half of the cost of the road in the province. I am told that this particular vote is for the road in the Northwest Territories. It is the full cost of the Northwest Territories section. In addition to that, we have an agreement with the province of Alberta to pay an amount which represents fifty per cent of the cost of the section of the road lying within Alberta, which is being built by the province of Alberta. I believe there is another vote for that. I have no information as to the contractor or the cost of the work.


George Hugh Castleden: What is the length of the road which is dealt with under this particular item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Eighty miles.


George Hugh Castleden: That is the eighty miles of the road in the Northwest Territories?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: It has nothing to do with the Alberta section?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.

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George Hugh Castleden: Is the road completed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This road and the road within the Northwest Territories are not started. My officers tell me. that, as usual, I am wrong. They tell me that it is started and is likely to be finished this year.


George Hugh Castleden: This $369,000 was
expended on that last year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: Is this estimate supposed to complete the road?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This will complete it, yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch-
Government of the Yukon territory-
1J9. Administration, $155,000.
Harry Grenfell Archibald: Has the British Columbia government nbtified the Department of Mines and Resources that it has $200,000 to spend on a road between Atlin and the Alaska highway? If it has so notified them, has it also asked them for the use of their machinery to work on that road?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The position is this. About half of this road is in the Northwest Territories and half of it is in British Columbia. The estimated cost of the road is about $600,000, being about $300,000 for the Northwest Territories part and about $300,000 for the British Columbia part. The province of British Columbia have offered us $200,000 and told us to build the entire road. At the moment we have no provision in the estimates for that. It is now too late in the season to undertake a project of that kind. We are now in the middle of July. All I can say to my hon. friend is that we shared with the British Columbia government the cost of the survey. We made no commitment beyond that point. But now that they have shown an interest in constructing the British Columbia end of the road, we shall consider with them further the division of the cost, and endeavour to make some provision for it for next season, starting early in the season.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch-
Land registry-
15-i. Land registry, seed grain collections, administration of ordnance, admiralty and public lands, $91,940.
Thomas John Bentley: Before I say anything on this particular item, I wish to ask the minister a question. If he replies favourably, I shall not need to say any more. Is the government giving any consideration to cancelling the seed relief debts of from 1912 to 1919
and along about that time, which were incurred before there were other relief measures in the prairie provinces?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is an old account dating from years away back when the government was in the seed grain business. All we are trying to do is to collect these accounts. It is an inactive branch of the department, except that we are owed this money and we should like to collect it.


Thomas John Bentley: That is, I am sorry to
say, the answer I expected to get.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What does it mean?


Thomas John Bentley: I wish the minister could have been a little bit more encouraging. I want to point out that these liens were taken against the land and sometimes-in fact, quite frequently-the land has changed hands. The present tenants, when they think they have the debt paid up now find that they actually have not, because in applying for their title they find they have quite a debt to pay. In the main I agree with the minister, that when a person contracts a debt he should pay it; 'but I know there have been occasions and circumstances when not only farmers but other people have been relieved of an old debt because of the passage of time and because of economic circumstances which have intervened between the time of the contracting of the debt and the present day.
I know the minister is acting on behalf of the other minister who is ill; and I am sorry that the regular minister is not here. I wish the present minister, who is doing a very good job, would give serious consideration to the matter. I want to give just one concrete case. I could give a great many, but I do not want to take up the time of the committee. The case I have in mind is that of the northeast quarter of section 16, township 28, west of the third meridian. Nearly thirty years ago, in 1918, this land was purchased, and at that time the principal amount owing was $465.90. As of January 8, 1947, the interest amounted to S740.50 making a total debt of $1,207.40. In this case the debtor has had a compromise offered by the department, in which compromise I have no doubt the department went as far as it had authority to go. That compromise offer was a cash settlement of $744.75. This piece of land is located in an area which is frequently subject to drought. Occasionally it gets a crop, but in the main one can say it just gets 'by. After a succession of bad years in the thirties, when we had both low prices and poor crops, people in that district
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could not even get by and did anything and everything possible to get some little income on which to live.
A great many accounts are in a similar position. I have given what I think is a typical case. The man who owns this land has worked very hard. He has raised a large family and done a pretty good job as a citizen. Consequently I believe he should be relieved of this debt. He has done all the other things that have been, necessary to carry out his obligations. He has paid his municipal and school taxes; he has paid off his machinery debt, his mortgage and so on. He has paid the interest and all the rest of it, and finally he thought he was clear of debt and relieved of these obligations in his more than middle age. Then suddenly he found that, even under the compromise settlement, he still owed $744. That may not sound like a great deal of money to members of this house when they are dealing in these estimates with nothing less than a few thousand, which is just chicken feed, and on up into the millions; but it is a lot of money to struggle to pay after a lifetime of hard work. So I ask the minister to give serious consideration to instructing his department to cancel these debts. If these people are still involved it is because they have not been able to discharge these debts, no matter how hard they have tried. Other people,'such as the grocer and the machinery man, have accounted for their money up to the present. These people should be relieved of these debts now, because everything that could be done by the debtors has been done, and they should not have to continue to struggle to pay this money. I can appreciate the difficulties of trying to collect debts. I wish I could collect all those owing to me. I would be tickled to death and would offer an even better compromise than this on some of them. But I do not expect to collect, and I will not press for payment. I should like the government to be as lenient with those in difficult circumstances as I have been personally with some people in the same position, in a much smaller way but equally important. Will the minister give some serious thought to that suggestion?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would point out to my hon. friend that there is a debt adjustment board in every province, made up of citizens of that province who in each case know the debtor and are sympathetic toward his problems. Adjustments are being made almost every day in connection with these loans, and I know of no case in which there has been absolute hardship on account of them. My hon. friend said they suddenly found themselves in debt. I think he will find that these debts go back

quite a number of years. The prairies were never so prosperous and the people of the prairies were never so well able to pay their debts as at the present time, due, I think in large part, to the careful administration of this government. We sincerely hope that in their days of prosperity they will liquidate these small debts and relieve the department of the necessity of dealing with these matters.


Thomas John Bentley: I cannot let it go quite as easily as that, though I do not suppose I can change the minister's mind. He may think he has said something fairly wise, but it is not quite so wise as one might expect from a man in his position and with his capabilities. When I said these people suddenly discovered themselves in debt I meant exactly what I said. Many of them did not know or had forgotten the loans were there. They had1 struggled through the years to provide the minimum necessities, and they thought they were clear; then they found they were not.
The minister said the prairies were never better off than they are at the present time. I am not going to dispute that statement; probably it is true. But when one considers all the years they were so badly off, to be a little better off now may not mean a great deal. A person in the gutter, hungry and broke, is better off if someone gives him a cup of coffee and a couple of doughnuts, but that is not good enough. A great many more years of prosperity-and I agree it will have to be in spite of the government over there -will be required before we can say the prairies are really well off. It is true that they are better off than they were and that they have paid some of their debts. Here is a deibt, however, that many of them have not been able to pay. I am sure, if the minister were dealing with these matters on a purely personal basis or as the manager of a concern he would give them a great deal more consideration than he appears to want to give them at the present time. As the head of a department representing the people of this country, I believe those he represents would appreciate it if he extended the same leniency to these people as I am sure he would if he were the manager of a business with which people were involved in this way, and in which he had come out so well.
It is all very well to say the farmers were never better off than they are now. I would remind the committee of what the Minister of Finance said in presenting his budget speech, that never in the history of Canada had the people such a surplus. Therefore we are all better off than we have ever been before. That goes for all the people. A great many

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accounts have been cancelled, and I think these small accounts could be cancelled as well without the financial situation of Canada being affected.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch-
National parks bureau-
155. National parks and historic sites services, including authority for commitments against future years to an amount of $194,000, $1,821,626.
Mr. WEBB:: When these estimates were before the committee last year I discussed at some length what are known as the Thousand Islands national parks, their development and maintenance. While they are not large, I consider them important. They lie in a very good district, with a heavy tourist traffic, and we need all the accommodation we can possibly get in- connection with them. As I said last year, during the war they were allowed1 to run down, no doubt because of the shortage of material and labour, but I think now the time has arrived when they should be further developed. Definitely they should be maintained in much better condition than is the case at the present time. This year, of course, with conditions as they have been, the docks are under water and very few of these parks can be used at all. Last year when I brought this matter up, the minister stated this, as reported at page 5470 of Hansard for August 27, 1946:
The hon. member knows that we have had investigations made by our officers, and that investigations are being made by United States officers. Separate reports are being submitted independently by the investigating officers, one for the United States and one for ourselves. Those reports have not yet been considered, and I am therefore not yet in a position to say what the result may be.
I am wondering if at this time there is any report which the minister might have with respect to these parks, which really need attention at the present time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can say we are spending considerably more money on the parks this year than we have done in the past several years. I have before me a list of items which I could read, but I doubt if it would be worth while. I will say, however, that we will do all the work this year for which we can get the materials, and which will come within the amount of money provided.


George Robert Webb: When we hear so much talk about the value of these parks for tourist traffic-and we all agree that it is becoming a great industry-I am wondering if, through
the cooperation of the provincial governments, it would not be wise to open a really large park in the Rideau lakes district not many miles from here. It seems to me that we are arriving at a stage when, possibly through good advertising and because of the way in which tourists are being treated-and I hope that is true-we shall have more tourists in this country than we shall be able to take care of. I understand that the provincial government must donate the land, but that the federal government would then look after the development and maintenance of the park. I believe this is worth while keeping in mind because, in my view, in the not too distant future a park of substantial proportions should be developed in the Rideau lakes district adjacent to the highways leading from the Thousand Islands bridges. In this way we would be able to take care of many thousands of tourists in one of the finest districts of Canada. I am suggesting that something should be done about this.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I do not find in the details of the item any amount for roads in national parks.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This item covers the maintenance of roads in parks. The provision for new expenditures in that direction is in the supplementary estimates.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: Will any part of this vote to be used for renovation of the old northwest mounted police barracks at Battle-ford, Saskatchewan?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Mr. ROBINSON (Bruce):: In my constituency is a district known as Bruce peninsula, on one side of which is Georgian bay and on the other side lake Huron. That peninsula, as hon. members know, has caused much comment from different historians and mineralogists on the North American continent. We have rare rock formations up there, and also types of flowers found nowhere else in North America except in New Mexico. In recent years many professors have looked through that section of the province, and it is generally agreed that it would be an ideal spot for a national park. Great numbers of tourists are already visiting the peninsula, and I am wondering if the department has ever had drawn to its attention the fact that this spot is well suited for purposes of a national park. If one were established in that location it would have the tendency to decentralize. What steps would be required toward having a park established, and in the event of this taking place what would be the status of the people in that area?
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Clarence Decatur Howe: The initiative must come from the province. The requirement comes from there, and the province donates the land involved. I believe Ontario is the only province which, with the exception of this small park and one in the Georgian bay area, has never made a request of this kind. If the people of Bruce peninsula wish to take the matter up with the province we would be pleased to consider any representations the provincial government might make in that regard.


Andrew Ernest Robinson: How would the people on the lands taken over by such a park be recompensed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That would be a matter for the provincial government. If there are any settlers in the area they would be removed by the provincial authorities.


Douglas King Hazen: Has a site for a national park in New Brunswick been selected; if so, -where is it to be located? I ask this question because of an article appearing in the Saint John Telegraph-Journal of July 4, headed "National park site in New Brunswick has been selected". The minister of lands and mines of the province is reported to have said, "We have decided on one place now"; but he did not say where it was. What is the situation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have been approached personally in the matter. A letter from R. J. Gill of June 24, 1947, addressed to me is as follows: Dear Mr. Howe:
We are most anxious to push forward the establishment of a national park in this province. Mr. Smart from the Department of Mines and Resources has made several trips to various proposed sites, and has finally made a definite selection. His report should be before you for consideration quite soon. .
I would ask you to kindly give the matter your attention, as I understand you are now Acting Minister of Mines and Resources. It is most important that we should have your approval without delay, as this will finalize the acquiring of certain parcels of privately owned real estate within the proposed park area.
I have not seen Mr. Smart's report, but I am told it has been received by the department and is now being considered.


Douglas King Hazen: Who is Mr. Smart?


Clarence Decatur Howe: He is chief of the national parks bureau.


Douglas King Hazen: I do not like to press further because, if the land is to be acquired, perhaps it would be just as well if the location were not announced until the land is acquired.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Probably so.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
OMr. A. E. Robinson.]
Lands, parks and forests branch-
National parks bureau-
156. Administration of Migratory Birds Convention Act, $57,100.
Mr. BLAIR:: What measures are being taken to preserve the duck population of Canada? In a recent publication of the Ontario department of lands and forests it is stated that in 1943 our duck population was
145,000.000, and in 1946 it was only 80.000,000. From that it would look as though our ducks were being seriously depleted. What steps are being taken under this act to preserve this population? I should like to know also if Cuba has entered into an agreement under the Migratory Birds Convention Act?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are faced with a difficult situation, due to the startling reduction in the known migratory waterfowl population on this continent. For the past two years, various adverse natural factors operating in Canada and in the United States have decimated the waterfowl to such an extent that increasing numbers of hunters have killed more ducks than were produced. The breeding stock has been cut into seriously.
This subject was probably the most important discussed at the provincial-dominion wildlife conference in February last, when topranking wildlife officials from all the provinces, and from the United States, presented the results of their surveys. It was agreed by all who were familiar with the situation that, unless the harvest of waterfowl in 1947 is greatly curtailed, this season may witness the collapse of this great sport. Some authorities have recommended a completely closed season until improved conditions permit restoration of a normal duck population.
In dealing with this situation on this side of the line the dominion, as the authority charged with responsibility for the administration of the Migratory Birds Convention Act, collaborates with the provinces which are responsible for the wildlife and, by consultation and exchange of information, it is possible to arrive at dominion and provincial regulations which are identical. Before the regulations are promulgated in Canada, we usually know what action is being taken on the United States side of the line. For a number of reasons, the conditions imposed there are always more drastic than those imposed in Canada. We do not know yet whether the' United States will have an open season for migratory birds this year. In Canada it seems likely that we shall have a short open season with greatly reduced bag limits.


William Gourlay Blair: I am given to understand that the slaughter of canvasback ducks in Cuba

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is terrific during the tourist season because of the great influx of hunters. Then United States hunters are coming into Canada. This same article from the Ontario lands and forests departmental publication states that more birds were exported on ice than migrated on the wing. It would seem that something will have to be done when there has been a drop from 145,000,000 to 80.000,000 within two years and with additional hunters coming into the country. If not, we are going to lose this great game sport of wild duck hunting.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I agree that the situation is terrible. At least we are aware of the situation and will take steps. My hon. friend will appreciate the desirability of working along with the United States. I am sorry I have no information as far as the situation in Cuba is concerned.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch-
159. Branch administration, $26,856.
Mr. MERRITT:: I notice, in the estimates for roads in the Northwest Territories, a number of votes with which I am in complete accord, but I do not find any vote for the development of mining roads in the Yukon. There is one road there in which the citizens of that country and the British Columbia-Yukon chamber of mines are very much interested. I refer to the road from Whitehorse to Carmacks, to Mayo Landing, to Dawson City. They believe that this road would do much to help in developing the Yukon. The British Columbia-Yukon chamber of mines wrote to the minister in February last, asking for his consideration of this matter, and I should like the minister to state what are the plans for the developments of roads in the Yukon territory.


Clarence Decatur Howe: A survey of the road in question was made last year, and the supplementary estimates contain an item of $170,000 for roads in the Yukon Territory. I cannot say how this money will be spent, but I dare say some work will be carried out on the road in question.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: I cannot find any item in the supplementary estimates for roads in the Yukon Territory, but there is a grant of $170,000 to the Yukon council.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is included in that grant.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: Could the minister state what that $170,000 will be used for? Has it been determined whether this road will be built?	[DOT]


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Yukon council determine the method of spending their revenue, and
they have an item of $170,000 in their subsidy for roads. I assume that they will spend this money to the best advantage of the territory.


Charles Cecil Ingersoll Merritt: Do I understand that the Yukon council decides these matters and that the department does not make decisions or would not make a special grant for what I would consider to be a major road project? This is not a minor job.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The department has general supervision over the expenditures, but it usually accepts the advice of the council for the Yukon. It is not unusual for the department to make special grants for special projects, and in this instance it has made a grant of $170,000 to be spent on roads, following the advice of the Yukon council.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch-
152. Dominion water and power bureau, including the administration of the Dominion Water Power and Irrigation Acts, and including grants of $350 to the international executive council, world power conference, $298,760.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Is it intended to develop power in connection with the St. Mary river dam. the same as they do with their irrigation works in the United States?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no plan to develop power at the moment. The P.F.R.A. is carrying out this development. As my hon. friend knows,, work has been commenced on the main dam, and whether the overflow will be found sufficiently reliable in the future to warrant the generating of power is a matter for the future.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The development of power there would be beneficial to the small towns in the vicinity like Cardston and Raymond.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a pretty small creek.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It has an average flow of 1.400 second feet, but in the summer time it is down to about 450. The lake will contain about 300,000 acre feet of water, and even in the summer time it should be possible to develop some power.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch-
163. To provide for studies and surveys of the Columbia river watershed in Canada, $280,000.
Edmund Davie Fulton: Coming from British Columbia, I certainly would not criticize any expenditure of public funds being made out there. I am glad to see that they are going to do this work on the Columbia river, but I want to
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make the request for some similar expenditures on the Fraser and Thompson rivers system. I have pressed for a similar survey of all that area as an integrated project. In comparison with the Columbia river, the Fraser river system, as the hon. minister from British Columbia knows, includes both the Thompson, the North Thompson and the Adams rivers There is far more agricultural land served by the Fraser river system than by the Columbia river system. As far as the river in Canada is concerned, there is far more value in the fisheries, in the salmon run on the Fraser river, than there is in the Columbia river system. As I said at the outset, I wTould not oppose the expenditure of this money on the Columbia, but from the point of view of Canada there is more to be gained by having a similar survey of the Fraser river system. So far as the people in my part of the country are concerned, they are worried over the removal of the dam in the Adams river by the fisheries department at the end of 1945. It has already produced a tremendous lowering of the level of Adams lake and a rapid run-off in the spring, which increases our problems of irrigation in the fall. I think all three departments, mines and resources, agriculture, and public works, and to a lesser degree fisheries should cooperate in the survey of that area. Can the minister say whether any reports have been received, or whether any work is contemplated on the Fraser river system similar to the work that is being done on the Columbia river?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Columbia river is an international one and comes under the international joint commission. For that reason it is a federal responsibility. The Thompson and the Fraser, as my hon, friend knows, are rivers within Canada and practically within one province of Canada, and the work on the Fraser river would therefore come under the province.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The fisheries aspect of it is international. What is the international aspect of the Columbia river which makes us spend $280,000 if we cannot spend a similar amount on the other river system?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The mouth of the Fraser is international, but the river itself is wholly within one province.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What are we getting out of this to justify spending $280,000?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are carrying out an international obligation.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What is the obligation that we are carrying out on the Columbia river?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If we did not do this the Americans could use the water on their side
in any way they liked. They could shut off the water. The Columbia river rises in the United States, flows into Canada and down through Spokane into the ocean. Unless we are prepared to study the river and determine the use which we wish to make of our share of the water of the river, the Americans would be justified in using the water on their side as they liked.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What do we do with the money?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is spent on surveys of various kinds, keeping water records, stream measurements and power possibilities.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Have we actually built any projects on the river, or is the money all spent on surveys?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Just surveys.


James Herbert Matthews: I should like to correct the minister in his geography. He says that the Columbia river rises in the United States. I beg to correct him. It rises in the riding of East Kootenay in Canada.


Douglas King Hazen: For how many years has this survey been going on? Was the amount that was voted last year the first vote, or has this survey been going on for a number of years?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There used to be a vote under external affairs. Last year $300,000 was voted. There was a vote in 1944-45 of $50,000 but very little of it was spent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch-
169.	Snow lake mining road, Manitoba- amount required for dominion contributions in 1947-48 for construction, under terms of agreement with the province of Manitoba, $125,000.
Mr. MOORE:: Does the federal government intend to give any assistance to the government of Manitoba for the completion of No. 10 highway to Flon lake?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know of no appropriation for that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch-
170.	Grimshaw-Great Slave lake road- amount required for construction of provincial section in 1947-48, under terms of agreement with Alberta, $950,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Canada is supplying
under this vote $125,000 toward the construction of the road from Grimshaw to the Alberta boundary, 247 miles north.

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Clarence Decatur Howe: In 1946-47 we voted $450,000, and this year the vote is $950,000. Our share is about $1,300,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is this to be a concrete or hardi-surfaced road?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, it is a road of 300 miles.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is 247 miles from Grimshaw to the 60th parallel, that is the Northwest Territory boundary, and eighty miles from the Northwest Territory boundary to Hay river. This is purely a winter road.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes. It was first constructed! to be used in winter by tractors crossing Great Slave lake to Yellowknife. Does the minister know whether plans have been prepared for the construction of the road from Hay river west to Providence or Mills lake and: from Mills lake by road to Yellowknife? That would be another eighty miles to Providence and twenty-five miles to Mills lake, 100 miles from Mills lake to Raa, and 100 miles from Rae to Yellowknife. That road is projected. Has any engineering work bean done on it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend is not correct in saying that the Grimshaw road is only a winter road. It is being gravelled. It is an all-year road. It goes only as far as Great Slave lake and, after that, travel is by boat. No extension is proposed. There is no development in the country which would warrant an extension at this time.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is a winter road
inasmuch as it was first cut through for tractors. I have all the pictures.


Clarence Decatur Howe: But- it will also be used in the summer.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes. In the summer by boat from Hay river to Yellowknife and in the winter by tractors across the lake to Yellowknife. Are any plans being projected to carry the road around Great Slave lake to Mills lake?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister himself
said that last year when I asked him the question. I have been there. The great value of that road is this, if we extend it from Hay river to Mills lake. Mills lake is on the Mackenzie river, about twenty-five miles west of Providence. The river itself is open from two ito three weeks earlier than the lake. The lake does not open so early in the summer. If the road were constructed it could be used a<s a winter road, as a tractor road to Mills lake, carrying tremendous
quantities of freight to be put on boats to go down the Mackenzie in the spring to Norman Wells and several other posts three weeks earlier than now. I think that is an important road, The lake itself is frozen up longer. The lake just freezes up and remains frozen in the fall of the year three weeks earlier than the river. In other words, the Mackenzie river could be used for six weeks longer than it now is if we had a river road to Mills lake. There is a substantial harbour at Mills lake.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch-
Hydrographic and map servicenil. Hydrographic service, $778,049.
George Robert Webb: This is a large item. Can the minister give us some idea of the service rendered by this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hydrographic service was formerly operated bjr the Department of Transport and was transferred to the Department of Mines and Resources about 1937. Its duties are to map the ocean beds on both coasts of Canada. It operates several survey boats and keeps a considerable crew working on mapping. It has echo sounding equipment and mapping equipment. It does a first-class job to keep Canada's hydrographic maps up to date. The item is a little larger than during the war years. Naturally the work of surveying was curtailed during the war years. The vote is not out of proportion to that of pre-war years.


George Robert Webb: Does it keep any records of . water levels?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, it does that work on tidal waters. The water and power bureau, which is also in the department, keeps water levels of streams within Canada, but the water levels of oceans are kept by the hydrographic survey.


George Robert Webb: They do not make any prophecies of water levels in the coming years?


Clarence Decatur Howe: So far as the ocean is concerned, of course there is practically no change. We have a record of the tides, but there is no change in the water levels of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, which is the area in which the hydrographic survey operates.


Douglas King Hazen: The minister may not have the figures there, but is he in a position to tell the committee how far the continental shelf extends from Canada both on the Atlantic and on the Pacific coast? Does the hydrographic survey give that information?
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Clarence Decatur Howe: The hydrographic survey
probably has it charted, but it changes in almost every mile of coastline.


Douglas King Hazen: Is there a map of it? If there is a map of it I should like to examine it at some time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would suggest to my hon. friend that he call the hydrographic survey in the Confederation building, and I think they can quickly give him the maps which he requires.


Douglas King Hazen: You might ask them to send me a copy, which would save a call.


Clarence Decatur Howe: You had better call.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch-
176. To provide for the payment of fees of the board of examiners for dominion land surveyors, of the secretary and of the sub-examiners and for travelling expenses, stationery, printing, rent, etc. (the fees of F. H. Peters, J. E. R. Ross and R. H. Montgomery, members of the board, and A. W. W. Cole, secretary, are to be paid out of this sum, $2,100.
Edmund Davie Fulton: I notice that this appears to be an item to provide for the payment of fees to several examiners. On looking over the names, it seems to me that they are the names of people who are already on the staff of the department. I believe Mr. F. H. Peters is the surveyor general of Canada or holds some such position. If his duties are to be increased permanently', then I suggest that he should get an increase. Surely it is not proper that a permanent civil servant should be able to get proper recompense for his work only by a sort of occasional item of this kind. If he is a civil Servant-and I suggest that he is president of the board of examiners-I do not think he should get an extra fee for that. If it becomes part of his permanent work, then his salary should be increased. Subject to an explanation by the minister I do not think this is the way to do it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is work outside the line of duty. I know that Mr. Peters is the surveyor general of Canada. I think some of the other men are not members of the department. Whether Mr. Peters gets paid or not, I cannot say.


Edmund Davie Fulton: It says so here.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It will be noted that the item also includes travelling expenses, so that whether compensation is given or not, it would not be very high compensation.


Edmund Davie Fulton: My point is not to quibble over the amount. If this is to be permanent w'ould it not be better to do it by way of
[Mr. Hazen.j
increasing his salary and so avoiding the auditor general's comments and trouble of that sort, rather than have a separate item each year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad to call the hon. member's remarks to the attention of the minister of the department and have him explore it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch
[Stage Direction]
177. Branch administration, $92,371.
George Hugh Castleden: I was attempting to speak on this item this afternoon. At that time I reported the fact that there exists in Canada a situation of which a good many Canadians are not fully aware. I am referring to about 132,000 of the native inhabitants of this continent, the North American Indians, who in Canada are undoubtedly suffering wrongs and are denied certain human rights that we consider an essential part of the existence of every human being. Because of Canada's reputation in this matter, I think it is well that the department which has this responsibility should understand that this is not just a technical job; it is a job of rescuing a race of people who, I am convinced, have been seriously wronged. I am convinced that the Canadian Indian could be restored to a position of dignity and pride. My experience with these people, in studying and working with them, has convinced me that they have many fine characteristics which, if properly developed, could make a splendid contribution to Canada. The Indian people have been subjected to a term in reserves which has degraded and relegated them to a position of inferiority and almost to a position of dependence, such as might well be meted out to pariahs .who have become outcasts from society. That is not good enough.
The thing that stirs me about this is the fact that the whole thing is unnecessary. Some years ago the LTnited States took hold of this situation and has already made great strides in restoring these people. The New Zealand people, by their treatment of the Maoris, have rescued a very fine race of people who are making a splendid contribution to. that country. I am somewhat discouraged at times in speaking to the people of Canada, and to officials of the department, who refer to the Indian as a useless, lazy chap who will not work. That is not true. Medical men who have, made a study of the situation among our Indians have come to the conclusion that our Indian is a sick man.
The responsibility for the welfare of the Indian has been placed upon this government.

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and particularly upon this department. I am making a special plea, because I think there is a challenge here for officials in this department, to go out and rescue, a race of people who have been seriously wronged by the administration of Canada in the past. I am sure the Canadian people would not permit the condition which exists to continue to exist if they were aware of it. The fact that we have finally set up a committee of this house, which has been sitting for the past two years and which tabled its report the other day, reveals that the Canadian people are at least becoming aware of a tremendous responsibility in this field. That committee has found that there are conditions existing which they had not dreamed of before. I have been pleased with the attitude of the members of that committee toward this Indian problem. There seems to be an earnest desire on the part of many hon. members to do a real job of restoring these people. There is extensive want among these people; there is a neglect of the ordinary human needs. The rights of the Indian have been denied to him. He is placed in a position of dependence. He is not allowed to develop any of his talents m a private way. He is given no rights with regard to government or control of his own affairs. He is placed under the direction and control of an Indian agent. Often these Indian agents are unqualified with regard to any scholastic ability, and I am sure that in many cases their attitude with regard to the Indian is altogether wrong. The Indians are resentful of the treatment which they have had, but they have no redress; they have no avenue of approach to get redress for their grievances.
One of the greatest functions which this committee has performed in the past two years is that of being a sort of court of appeal to which these people could come and submit their grievances and, for the first time in a long time, inform the government of this country and the members of parliament oi some terrible conditions which exist. If you will go back over your history, Mr. Chairman, you will find that the Canadian government made treaties with these people. Treaties were made with the Indians of this country before it was British territory. After the British came, they made treaties with these Indians. Evidence was presented before that committee to the effect that those treaties have been broken and that the promises which were made to these Indians have not been fulfilled. Hundreds of treaties with these people were signed. They had faith in the government officials and the officials of the Queen when the promises were made. Now 'hey have no way of forcing the government's
hand. They have no way of compelling the government to fulfil its obligations. The condition of neglect which many of them are in is disgraceful. The living conditions in some of these reserves are deplorable. Medical attention had fallen to a low ebb. One of the good things this committee did was, I believe, to awaken the officials of the department to a realization that something was wrong. The committee has been pleased to notice that, in recent months, the government has taken hold of this matter of the health and welfare of the Indians and placed it under another department, and is spending a considerable amount of money in attacking the situation. But something will have to be done and done quickly. We cannot neglect the problem.
Among the recommendations which the committee handed down to the house yesterday was No. 2, which reads as follows:
That a commission in the nature of a claims commission be set up with the least possible delay to inquire into the terms of all Indian treaties, in order to discover and determine such rights and obligations as may herein be involved (or any subsequent substitution therefor) and to appraise and settle in a just and equitable manner any claims or grievances arising thereunder.
That is a valuable recommendation. The Indian people have lost faith in the white man. The Indian is distrustful of him. He resents his treatment, and you can hardly blame him when you go over the record of the department. Reserves were set aside, but we find that these reserves are being infiltrated by white people. Valuable property is being taken away from the Indians. Sometimes the band has consented and sometimes it has not. Proper records are not kept. In the matter of education and training there is a great deal which must be done. One of the Indian delegates who appeared before our committee said this: "The measure of the democracy of any nation may be judged by the measure of democracy it allowis its smallest minority to enjoy." These 132,000 people are enjoying no democracy. Canada is making itself liable to charges in the united nations council as a result of the way in which it treats a minority people of a different race within its own borders. That is how serious the situation is. If our treatment of these Indian people is the scale upon which we are to judge democracy in Canada, then Canada stands low indeed.
My plea with the government is for them to see that the commission recommended by t.he committee is set up. I should like to see upon that commission a representative of the
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Indian race chosen by the Indians themselves. Of recent years the Indians are beginning to organize, but they have been left illiterate. They were supposed to be 'trained. The educational system among our Indians has fallen down miserably. The evidence given by government officials shows that there were
12,000	Indians in Canada who had no opportunity of any education whatsoever. How can you make a race of people with the situation like that? Education is a fundamental and basic thing upon which we must build these people if we are to make anything at all of them. They are largely illiterate. They have no power or ability to speak for themselves. They do not understand organization. They have often been fooled and tricked, and they have no avenue of redress; as a result, they are sinking into hopelessness. There was plenty of evidence, however, that certain groups- and I am speaking of agencies such as the Caughnawaga, the Six Nations at Brantford, a few of the Blackfeet Indians in Alberta and some of the Haida Indians on the western coast-had been able to achieve some possibility of progress. Those Indians showed remarkable characteristics and remarkable ability.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And the Moraviantown Indians.


George Hugh Castleden: Yes. The capacity is there, but the treatment of these Indians by the administrations of this country has been such as to keep them submerged and inferior. They are people with great possibilities.
My main theme is this: give these people a chance. Give them the ordinary fundamental human rights which should be allowed to every human being and you will be repaid a thousand-fold. The disgraceful conditions which have existed, and which exist today- even this very day-in spite of what has been done, are something of which Canadians cannot be proud. With some restoration of the ordinary rights of human beings, with some part in control and some responsibility with regard to the administration of their own affairs, even within their own little bands on their own reserves, and with some opportunity to train themselves, I am sure the results will be good. The Indians who have been taken off our reserves or who volunteered in the forces, and who went out and got proper medical care and proper food, made splendid records for themselves. However, when they come back to the reserves they find themselves relegated to positions of inferiority, and they deeply resent that.
I think it will also be found that when Canada made her treaties with the Indians

she promised them certain rights with regard to natural resources in the areas of land of the dominion. But when the dominion handed over the natural resources to the provinces, the Indians' rights were forgotten. The provincial governments do not recognize responsibility toward the Indians; that is a federal affair. There is a division of authority. I will say this, though. There has been some promise since this committee was formed two years ago. There are signs that officers of the department are awakening. I think the acting minister, in carrying on the job for the Minister of Mines and Resources who is ill, is doing fine work, and is doing the best he can. It is not easy for an engineer to act as a wet nurse, and the job is somewhat strange to him. I hope he will carry these recommendations on to the minister who, we hope, will soon be restored to health. There is a great job to be done. The committee which brought these recommendations down did all that it could do. But the recommendations are not being acted upon. This house passed resolutions saying that they were willing to support a proposal that old age pensions should be given to Indians on the reserves. I have seen conditions among the old people on the reserves, in places like Norway House, which are a disgrace to any people. The aged, the infirm and the blind on our reserves are suffering inhuman treatment or lack of treatment. This condition must be remedied.
I hope that every hon. member of the House of Commons will read the reports of the joint committee of the House of Commons and Senate on the amendments to the Indian Act. A great deal of information has been obtained, and I want to thank a few of the newspapers across this country which have given of their space to tell the story of the Indians in Canada. A great deal is yet to be done, and I should like to have some report from the government as to whether or not they intend to set up this claims commission, and whether their plans are to give greater opportunity to the Indians to go out and make use of their capacities and abilities to further enrich Canada.


Donald Ferguson Brown: I would not want to detract from the speech of the hon. member, because I think I would agree with most of it, but he said that treaties made with the Indians in times past have been broken. Will he not agree that, while that may have been so in some particulars, those treaties have been added to and replaced to a great extent, with the result that the Indian has been getting much more than was provided in the treaties?

54S9
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Mr. CASTLE-DEN: In some instances and under some treaties there have been some advantages; but I would say none of the advantages given the Indian in this way would recompense him for the loss he has suffered by being relegated to a position of inferiority. I suppose most of the treaties have been fulfilled to some extent, and many of them have been changed, but the thing the Indian does not like is the fact that he is placed in a position where he has no voice in regard to the changing of those conditions. Claims are settled without the Indian being consulted. Things are done with his lands, his reserves, without the Indian being asked. I referred to the fact that many of his rights were forgotten entirely when the natural resources of Canada were handed over to the provinces. At that time proper provision was not made for what he thought -were his inherent rights under the treaties which he, as a poor savage, sighed with the sophisticated people who had' everything on their side, including the fact that the treaties were in their language. Certainly the Indians of today have shown great willingness to come to an agreement with the government, and they are willing to help.


Donald Ferguson Brown: Since you have stated there should be an Indian on the proposed claims commission, with which I heartily agree, in view of the fact that we have not been able to get the Indians at our committee meetings to agree among themselves as to who should represent them, could you tell us how we should go about getting them to agree on an Indian to represent them on the claims commission?


George Hugh Castleden: Yes, gladly. If some little effort had been made by the government and others to get the Indians of Canada organized I am quite sure their good judgment would bring out fine men. If in a few months most of the provinces can gather together and organize the Indians to choose representatives-


Donald Ferguson Brown: Then would you tell me-


George Hugh Castleden: Just wait till I finish.


William Ross Macdonald: Order. All questions must be addressed to the Chair. I do not think it helps matters when hon. members discuss these matters between themselves.


George Hugh Castleden: I quite agree, Mr. Chairman. I was just about to say that in those areas where the Indians were assisted in getting together and organizing they were able to choose satisfactory representatives to appear before the committee. I am quite 83166-350
sure that when al'l the Indians of Canada become organized so that they can speak with one voice, they will choose good men. Their ability to tell their story and the way they told it showed what the Indians of this country can do.


Mr. HARKNESS:: I could probably stand here and1 talk for two or three hours on the wrongs andl troubles of the Indians of Canada, but I had rather hoped that, in view of the deliberations of the joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons on the Indian Act, we would have very little, if any, discussion this session on- the estimates of the Indian department. Holding that view, I did not prepare, or anticipate making, any long speech on the Indian question. However I should like to say- it seems to me that the joint committee now considering this matter is carrying out its work in a just, reasonable and impartial manner. As I say, I could speak for hours on- the way I think the Indians have been ill-treated, but I believe, instead of getting into arguments, instead of discussing particular cases, instead of debating the general question of how the Indians have been treated, we should wait until the committee has finished its deliberations.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I hear some hon. members on the government side saying "hear, hear", and apart from any other consideration, probably they are well advised in doing so, in view of the fact that the present government has been in power for some twenty odd years out of the last twenty-five. As a matter of fact, the Indian problem has been on our hands since confederation, and every government that has been in power in this country must bear a certain amount of responsibility for the fact that our Indians have not been well and reasonably treated. Under no circumstances should the Indian question get down to a party level, or the level, of what this government has done, what that government has done, or what the other government has done. We should consider it on the basis of what will be best for the Indians and for Canada. Since the entire question is being fairly exhaustively considered at the present time by the joint committee, and since I believe it is anticipated their deliberations will continue next session, personally I would be in favour of passing the estimates of the Indian department at the present time and waiting for the results of the deliberations of the committee before embarking upon a debate which would more or less crystallize the views of the various groups in this parliament as far as the Indians are concerned.

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John Ritchie MacNicol: I had not intended saying anything on this matter, because the committee has not yet formulated its recommendations or revised the Indian Act, and I-consider it premature to deal with what may be proposed to be done. However I am happy that the department is increasing the amount of these1 votes, particularly in the supplementaries. It is the first occasion for some time that this has been done, and I am glad to say the present Minister of Mines and Resources, the hon. member for Marquette, who is away because of illness, has been very sympathetic to the matter of improving the lot of the Indians. I say humbly that I was one who, more than ten years ago, or perhaps fifteen years ago-and I do not know anyone else who did-after making many surveys of Indian reservations myself, suggested that we set up a royal commission to investigate the whole problem of Indian administration. However, that did not take place. Indeed, nothing happened along that line until the present minister took office, at which time an attempt was made to improve the lot of the Indians by setting up the Indian Act committee.
I am not going to say anything about the work of the committee, because in my judgment it would be premature to do so at the present time. However I am pleased to see an increase in the estimates for this purpose, and I am hopeful that next year we shall see results, and that at the next session the act may be revised and a full programme set out for the benefit of the Indians. At that time I shall have something further to say about Indian affairs.


James Herbert Matthews: May I associate myself with what has been said by the hon. member for Yorkton. The past his. tory of our treatment of Indians does not make good reading. I believe we may accept the fact that today we are making efforts to do something better for them.
As one who has spoken on the same subject in the house before, and as one who has spent some years on Indian reserves, I should not like the impression to go out from the committee that all who have had anything to do with Indians in the past have sought to exploit them or to cause their downfall. Rather I would pay tribute to many hundreds of fine men and women of all Christian denominations who have spent many of the best years of their lives in seeking to improve the lives of the Canadian Indians. I feel that much has been accomplished by these people, and that, as a result of the fine work done on many of those reserves, we have cause to look forward to the future with great hope.
May I also express my appreciation of the

work done by the joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons in regard to this matter of revising the Indian Act. I am sorry I was not privileged to be a member of the committee, but I have followed its work with interest. Like many thousands of others,
I am waiting for the official report of the committee to see what improvements will be made in the Indian Act and what sort of future lies ahead of the Indian people.
Reference has been made to the outstanding ability shown by delegations from the east and the west before the committee. That exhibition of ability can be duplicated throughout the Indian population. Many of our Indians today are every bit as worthy^ of trust as are many of our white population, if we would only give the Indians the opportunity.
I should like to say something further about the development of native handicrafts, which perhaps might more properly be discussed under a later item. That' is one phase of Indian life which should be fully developed. The Indians of Canada have developed some excellent handicrafts, and they should be perpetuated. It would be a great mistake to allow those handicrafts to die out. The time is ripe to give the younger people on the reserves training in the handicrafts of their fathers and mothers, so that these exhibitions of native skill may not be lost.
I hope that the work of the committee, which is being brought more closely to the attention of the people of Canada, may result in a new and better day for our Canadian Indians.


George Hugh Castleden: How many teachers does the department employ in residential and) day schools of Indians in Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The department employs more than 300 teachers in day schools. The churches employ the teachers in the residential schools, of which I believe there are about eighty. I cannot say how many teachers are employed per school, but I should think that would depend upon the size of the school.


George Hugh Castleden: There has been some question as to whether the teachers are fully qualified and have certificates from the provinces in which they are employed. How many of these are qualified teachers, and how many hold Canadian qualifications? I understand that some have qualifications from the United Kingdom, and1 some from the United States. I was promised a break-down in committee, but I did not receive it.

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Clarence Decatur Howe: Some of the teache-rs are not fully qualified, but the department is striving to raise the standard. All we can do is to report progress and continue efforts in that direction.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Immigration branch-
185. Administration of the Immigration Act and the Chinese Immigration Act, $277,423.
Angus MacInnis: I should like to speak briefly about contracts entered into by employers with persons from displaced persons camps. Some time ago I placed a question on the order paper. It was later passed as an order for return, and I received the return yesterday. I find that a large number of companies have made application for persons from displaced persons camps. The return before me shows applications from thirty-eight different companies. The Canadian lumber industry has made applications on behalf of fifteen companies.
I wTish to refer particularly to a contract set out in another return tabled this morning. This form of contract is that of the Great Lakes Paper Company with the individual displaced persons who will be taken to Canada. I regret very much that in industries where there are labour organizations which have agreements with employers, no effort has been made to get the employers and trade unions together with respect to these contracts. I am satisfied that the method followed will not result either in good relationships between the persons brought in and the company, or in good relationships with other employees of the company.
The agreement I have before me is between the Great Lakes Paper Company Limited of Fort William, which in the agreement is named as the employer-and then there is a place for the name of the individual employee. The first section in the agreement reads:
>1. The employer agrees to employ the employee in lumbering, pulpwood or logging work for a period of ten months to run from the date the employee begins work on the operations of the employer.
I do not believe that an agreement should be made for as short a period as ten months. If you are only going to make an agreement for ten months you may just as well bring these people here and let them find their owni employment. An employee who has worked for only ten months will not have earned any benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Act, and if his employment terminates at that time he will not be eligible to receive unemployment insurance benefits. A contract should not be made for less than 83166-3501
two years, and any employer who cannot guarantee work for two years should not apply for people of this kind.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In the case of the Dionne labour my hon. friend's leader said that a con-traat for two years represented slavery. It is hard to satisfy my hon. friend.


Angus MacInnis: It is not hard to satisfy either my leader or myself. When the leader of our party was referring bo the Dionne case he was referring ot the terms of the contract, not to the period of the contract.


Mr. McILRAITH:: To the time.


Angus MacInnis: That was the objection there. I am objecting to contracts in any event, because bringing contract labour to this country is contrary to our laws, but if we are to have contract labour the period of employment should be longer than ten months. The second section reads:
2. The employer agrees to pay wages to the employee during the currency of this agreement at the rate and in the manner prevailing in the locality for comparable classifications of employment.
If organized labour in the industry has an agreement with the employer, then the terms in the contract providing for wages and conditions of work should be those provided by that agreement. As far as I know, the employees in all these industries are organized, but there may be some where they are not. Wherever -they are organized' there are agreements. The wages paid under such agreements and those paid in industries where labour -is unorganized may not be the same. Under this agreement the employer is not bound to -pay the wages in effect in his own industry. He agrees to pay the prevailing wages in the locality. If there is a difference between the wages paid in the industry and the rates in the locality you are going to have immediate conflict.
I regret exceedingly that the government did not insist that representatives of the workers in industries where they are -organized are associated with the agreement. If we are to brin-g these people here -they should be brought in on a basis where there will not be exploitation, or at least where the exploitation will be kept to a minimum.
I remember what happened in this country after the first world war. When labour was scarce during the war the workers in the lumber industry were able to organize and to improve their conditions of work which had been very bad. When the war ended, employers took advantage of the situation that developed. Even though their camps were
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not operating, when they found that workers were being taken from all parts of Canada to the harvest fields in the west they made application to the labour exchanges for workers for their lumber camps. Of course there were no workers available, and then they asked permission to bring in workers from Europe. Workers came in from Europe and, not knowing the conditions in the industry, they were used to destroy conditions that had been built up with a great deal of effort.
I do not want the country to go through the same process again, because it does not make for good labour relations. It does not make for peace in the industry, and it does not make for good relations as between unorganized and organized workers in the same industry. I should like the Acting Minister of Mines and Resources and the Minister of Labour, who, I believe, has been consulted in this matter, to get together and, wherever possible, insist that there be some contact between the organized workers in the industry and the employers, should any arrangements of this kind be made in the future.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Immigration branch-
187. Field and inspectional service abroad, $351,595.
Edmund Davie Fulton: This matter has been mentioned several times, so that I shall not speak about it tonight, but I should like the minister to give a specific answer to this question: When will it be possible to investigate cases of people who are now classified as enemy aliens in order to determine whether they are really enemy aliens? I referred to a case of this kind this afternoon. This man used to reside in Roumania and his family was put in a concentration camp where some of them were killed. He is now a Canadian and wants to bring them to this country, but they are classified as enemy aliens. Obviously they were not, because it was thought necessary by the enemy to put them in this camp. When I asked an explanation of the department all they could say is that they have not found it possible to establish an inspectional staff. When can these people hope to be able to enter Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The department is continually faced with the problem of getting in touch with these persons. The rule is that if the person in question was opposed to the enemy government he is admissible, provided that he can get to a place where the department can function. Nothing can be done as far as real enemy aliens are concerned until they cease to be enemy

aliens. 1 presume that, after the peace treaties are signed and ratifications are exchanged, the government will no longer regard them as enemy aliens. In the meantime it is necessary for a man of an enemy country to prove that he was opposed to an enemy government in order to be admissible at this time.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is any procedure laid down governing these cases?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Each case is judged on its merits. The investigation is in the hands of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who have their contacts in these countries. If it can be shown in an individual case that a family was killed off because of resistance to an enemy power, the man W'ould be admitted. The onus of proof is on the man to show that he was not an enemy alien. If he had lived in an enemy country the presumption w'ould be that he was an enemy alien. If he can prove otherwise he is admissible.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In Switzerland or in a country where there are no inspectional facilities at the moment, are people free to leave that country and go elsewhere where there are inspectional facilities and be examined there?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It depends on the laws of their own country.


Edmund Davie Fulton: But so far as Canada is concerned?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. If they turned up in Switzerland and could be examined there, and there was the necessary proof, they would be admitted to Canada. We inspect them wherever we find them.


Anthony Hlynka: The minister disagreed with me on one point this afternoon and I told him I could substantiate my statement. I shall not take the time of the committee to read these articles but would refer the minister to the issues of the New Leader, published in the United States, of December 21, 1946, containing, on page 3, an article by Martin Davidson; November 9, 1946, page 2, containing an article by Liston M. Oak; and April 19, 1947, containing another article on page 6. If the minister would care to read these articles he would find there was ground for the statement which I made.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Many articles are written, but I have long since stopped accepting as truth every article. I should like to know more about the author and his sources of information before I would regard that as proof of my hon. friend's statement.

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Anthony Hlynka: I will let the minister read them, and then he can say whether he agrees with me or not.


James Herbert Matthews: Item 184 provides for a grant of $100,000 for additional services for the Indians in British Columbia. In what year was that grant first made?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It was first made in 1926 or 1927.


Mr. BENIDICKSON:: I grant that the subject of immigration has been thoroughly discussed today and on other occasions in the house. I simply want to say I listened with great interest to what was said this afternoon by the hon. member for Dauphin, and while I may be taking some risk because he sits opposite to me in this house I should like to say that I am in substantial agreement with the remarks he made. We should try to reconcile the moves that are made under industrial orders in council with the applications that have been made by Canadians for the entry to Canada of their relatives, and I hope that the representatives of the immigration branch will take to heart what the hon. member for Dauphin said. Some certificate or document should be placed in the hands of relatives of Canadians who reside in displaced persons camps, so that when some shipping movement is made such as was made in the past for Polish soldiers, and as will be made in the future for industrial workers, these relatives of Canadians would get some preference over others in the camps in that they are related to Canadians.
If I might have the permission of the committee, I should like to say, with respect to item 185, that I personally have the feeling that there is something inequitable in the rigidity of the present order in council which says that the child in China of a Canadian citizen must, be under the age of eighteen to be admitted to Canada. I know that this subject has been debated thoroughly in the house, and I have a great deal of sympathy for the arguments that have been presented pro and con, and I feel that all arguments of humanity are against the rigidity which says you should divide a family, when, for instance, an unmarried daughter nineteen years of age is refused admission to Canada to join her father in this country and an unmarried daughter under eighteen may be admitted. I want to lodge my protest against this order fixed as it is. I think the humane attitude would be that the department should amend the order in council at least to give discretion
to the officials to admit the unmarried daughter of a Canadian citizen from China to Canada.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I regret to say that, owing to the abounding hospitality of the press gallery, I was not in the house when item 155 was called, and with the consent of the committee I should like to revert to that item for a few minutes to make what, I think, will be a few constructive suggestions.' The vote is for the national parks bureau.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We passed that vote hours ago.
I do not think that every time a member wanders into the chamber we can go back and discuss items passed two or three hours ago. We shall never make progress in that way.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I could take it up on the supplementaries.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That would be the best way. If every man has the chance of going back we shall never get finished.


Douglas Scott Harkness: If I have not consent I shall not discuss it now.


William Ross Macdonald: Did the hon. member intend to speak at length?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Only very shortly.


William Ross Macdonald: Is it the desire of the committee that he should proceed now?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Very well.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The prosecution of anything in the nature of a national parks policy has been altogether without imagination. I am not reflecting on this government; I am reflecting on the entire policy as it has been carried on by all governments. I do not think it is due to the permanent officials. I am sure they would be delighted to make our parks the best in the world. What I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, is that the department, either as a government enterprise or in conjunction with private individuals, many of whom would be only too anxious to cooperate, should provide in our national parks-I refer particularly to Banff, Jasper, and Waterton, which I know best-accommodation which the ordinary citizen could afford to occupy. The unfortunate fact is that our so-called national playgrounds are not within the reach of the purse of the ordinary citizen of this country. The existence at Banff, at Jasper and at lake Louise of luxury hotels is an excellent thing and is bringing a lot of United States tourist money into this country. At the same time, in these parks we should have accommodation which would be within the reach of all our citizens. I have spoken on this matter before in the
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house. The solution of it is so easy that I am sorry it has not been reached before.
When I was in Yellowstone national park the year before the war broke out, in 1938, I saw there large numbers of what might be called tourist cabins, accommodation to the lowest purse, composed of slabs of trees sawn off and made into cabins, with a covered space for a man to put his car underneath and with practically nothing in them except a bed without, of course, any bedding on it. You could rent these for seventy-five cents a night. This meant that almost any individual could go to Yellowstone national park with his family and rent one or two, or whatever his requirements were, of these, and the price was within his reach. Unfortunately, in our national parks we have nothing along that line. I would seriously suggest to the acting minister that steps be taken immediately to build in our national parks something comparable with the sort of thing I have described, which existed as long ago as 1938 in Yellowstone park in the United States, so that people of moderate means who wished to spend their holiday in these parks would be able to get accommodation within their reach.
The greatest weakness in our national parks is that there does not exist in them accommodation at a reasonable and cheap rate, so that our own people could go there and enjoy the beauties and the pleasures of these playgrounds. Personally I feel very strongly about this. I think our parks are the best in the world. I do not think any country has anything which can even approach Banff, Jasper and Waterton national parks. We have an asset there, the value of which the great majority of our people do not realize. At least we should take these minimum steps to make it available to our own people.
The second thing I should like to bring out in order to develop these parks, to get a large amount of tourist traffic from our own people and from the people of the United States, a long series of riding and hiking trails should be constructed for the summer time. It would mot coat much money and it would produce a great deal of added interest and traffic to the parks. So far as winter is concerned, many of these same trails could be used as ski trails. In addition, there needs to be built a considerable number of ski trails which will take advantage of the high hills and the long continued snow which lasts in a large area of these national parks until well on into May and June. That also would attract a large number of skiers. Nearly everyone will

recognize that skiing is a constantly increasing popular sport, and the development of these parks as skiinig grounds would mean a large increase in the winter tourist traffic to this country. At the present time our tourist traffic is almost entirely summer traffic. If we could develop in Canada skiing resorts to which people could go without having to spend too much money-and Canada has certainly some of the best skiing country in the world-we would help the entire national economy. I would ask the acting minister and this branch of the Department of Mines and Resources to give the most earnest consideration to carrying out these two suggestions, cheaper accommodation the year around in the parks, and the provision of hiking and trail riding facilities in the summer andi skiing trails in the winter, which will bring people to our parks.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch-
National parks bureau-
769. National parks and historic sites services -further amount required, $600,000.
Edmund Davie Fulton: Earlier this evening I was asking the minister about the road programme in the national parks. I should like to observe here that for the whole of this session I have had a resolution standing on the order paper with regard to a trans-Canada highways programme on the part of the federal government, or rather the desirability of developing such a programme. Opportunity has not been given to discuss it at this session. I felt that possibly a place would be found for it in the estimates of the Department of Transport, but the particular roads that I am interested in tie in very closely with Glacier national park and Jasper national park. The roads to these parks are the two main parts of the two main trans-Canada highways. While I realize that under the national park system we cannot expect to have a complete road built, still I think that at least that part of it running through the national parks should be brought up to a first-class highway standard. The boards of trade throughout British Columbia are particularly interested in getting the northern trans-Canada road built, one that should be an extension of .the Jasper park road. Can the minister say that under this item any work is to be done on what is commonly called the Jasper Blue River road?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, there is nothing under that. There is a $200,000 item in the amount for completing the gap in the Banff-Winder-

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mere highway, about seventy miles. That is not hard surfaced. The item is made up as
follows:
Salaries and proficiency allowances ...	$14,480
Undelivered mechanical equipment ...	257,220
Banff-Windermere highway	 200,000
Banff water and sewer system	 37,000
Jasper, extension sewer system	 19,000
Kootenay, replacement water pipeline 15,000 Banff water system for fish hatchery ..	10,000
Cape Breton, R.C.M.P. quarters		18,000
Prince Albert, Spruce River bridge ...	11,300
Riding Mountain, R.C.M.P. quarters ..	18,000
Total	 $600,000


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is any consideration being given, or any active survey under way, in regard to the extension of these roads; for instance, the portion of the Big Bend highway which runs from Glacier national park? According to the items listed by the minister, nothing is being done this year. Is the department working on anything for next year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am told that plans are being prepared.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Can the minister give us any indication what they are?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Plans are being worked1 on for the Blue River highway and various other highways.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Probably, if the interested boards of trade were to write to the department they might be able to obtain the details on that score.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Nothing can be started at this time of the season. We are in July. I would say if they held their fire until about November, the department will be in a better position to consider these for next year's estimates.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I will write a letter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and engineering branch-
773. Compilation and printing of electoral maps required under the redistribution bill, $13,500.
Edmund Davie Fulton: The bill has not yet been carried.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That may be so, but the maps have to be prepared and we have to have the money in advance; no money, no preparation. It would be most unfortunate for us if this redistribution bill were carried and the department had no money to print the maps. We should have to hold off the election for another year, which my hon. friends would not like.


Edmund Davie Fulton: It would be more unfortunate if the maps were printed and if the redistribution bill did not go through.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch-
Welfare and training-
776. Welfare of Indians-further amount required, $141,500.
Harry Grenfell Archibald: I should just like to raise one point. I was on a visit up in my own constituency in the Kispiox valley outside of Hazelton, and it was pointed out to me that there is a mile of road on the Indian reserve in such shape that the Indians could not get either in or out. Has any amount been allocated for the fixing of that road?


Clarence Decatur Howe: What is the name?


Harry Grenfell Archibald: In the Kispiox valley.
I am not certain whether it is the Kispiox reserve.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think the reserve is called that.


Harry Grenfell Archibald: I am sorry that I have not the name of the reserve in mind.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch-
780.	To provide for payment to the Indian trust fund, Gibson band, Parry Sound Indian agency, Ontario, for the amount of cash stolen from Indian agent, $1,214.
Mr. FRASER:: Is the department in the insurance business? I notice that this is to take care of an amount of cash stolen from the Indian agent.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The department is custodian of the band's funds. If an agent of the department is robbed, my hon. friend would not suggest that the Indians should stand the loss, would he?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: No, but I would think he would be bonded.


Clarence Decatur Howe: He did not steal it; he was robbed. He could be bonded against dishonesty, but he would, not be bonded against theft from his person.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is right, too.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch-	'
781.	To reimburse the James Smith band account (Xo. 293), Duck Lake Indian agency, Saskatchewan, for sums paid as salaries to farming instructors, which should have been charged to parliamentary appropriations, $9,612.99.
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James MacKerras Macdonnell: I should like to understand item 781 a little bit better.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Back in 1921 I am told that the department used funds of the band to pay farming instructors, whereas it was the practice elsewhere to pay farming instructors from government funds.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What is the band?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Indian tribe. The Indian tribes have funds. This is a festering grievance which has been going on for twenty-five years.


Mr. HACKETT:: Are we paying interest on the grievance?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I could not say.
Mr. HACIvETT: Why should this have been charged to a parliamentary appropriation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Justice ruled that the department had no right to spend the funds of the tribe for that purpose. The only other place you can get funds that I know of is from parliamentary appropriations.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Immigration branch-
782.	Administration of^ the Immigration Act and the Chinese Immigration Act-further amount required, $34,730.
Edmund Davie Fulton: I am going to ask a question which is common to many of these items. It simply states "further amount required" for administration. When we turn up the details on page 31 of the estimates we find that simply two items are shown, permanent salaries and temporary assistance. Why is a further amount required? Is that something which was not foreseen, or have increased numbers of personnel been taken on? If so, why was that not foreseen?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend will recall that, whereas these estimates were made up last February, since then the Chinese Immigration Act has been repealed and the department has had to deal with the wives of Chinese residents of this country. That called for more staff and, therefore, more expenditure.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Has the minister the details as to the number of extra staff?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. Permanent salaries, 813,920; temporary salaries, 820,810. It calls for a head clerk, Mr. E. A. Butler; another head clerk, Miss E. A. O'Connor; four principal clerks, appointments pending. That accounts for the 813,920. Then the temporaries are: three administrative officers,

grade 2, administrative officer, grade 2; six clerks, grade 4; two stenographers, grade 3. None of the appointments have been made.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
SJ/9. Dominion fuel board-administration and investigations, $38,004.
["I suggest that we call it eleven o'clock, which would not be too far from the truth.\nItem stands.\nProgress reported."]
Gordon Knapman Fraser: I think the minister should make a statement in regard to the fuel situation at the present time. They are taking on fuel oil now, are they?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. We have made provision for a dominion coal board, which has not yet been appointed. This is the dominion fuel board, which has been carrying on since 1921.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They are not taking on fuel oil?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They will be absorbed by the dominion coal board when it is appointed, and the dominion coal board will be responsible for both coal and fuel oil.


John Thomas Hackett: To what extent were the functions of this board taken over by some agency set up during the war?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The dominion fuel board formerly functioned in the Department of Mines and Resources. Early in the war, I think in 1940, a coal administrator was appointed by the wartime prices and trade board, in the person of Mr. James Stewart of Halifax. He acquired his staff in part by taking over the staff of the dominion fuel board, who were seconded from the Department of Mines and Resources to the wartime prices and trade board. A year later it was found that the problems with which the coal administrator was dealing had much more to do with supply than with distribution. At that time the work was transferred to the Department of Munitions and Supply and the coal administrator was replaced by a coal controller, while the dominion fuel board continued to function as an element of coal control. The fuel board is still functioning in the Department of Reconstruction and Supply.
I presume it will be merged with the coal board, which ultimately will be administered by the Department of Mines and Resources.


John Thomas Hackett: Is the fuel controller still in office?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


John Thomas Hackett: Who has replaced him?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Fuel control was abolished on December 31, 1946.

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John Thomas Hackett: I wanted to have just a word in regard to fuel, coal and oil, because there is some uncertainty as to our supplies for the winter and people are being advised to purchase their fuel as early as possible. Would the minister say who is in charge at the moment?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, Mr. Chairman, private enterprise is running free-


John Thomas Hackett: That is good.


Clarence Decatur Howe: -just as it did before the war. In other words, if private enterprise brings in enough fuel and distributes it well, everyone will be protected. If not, there is no agency of government this year to protect the public, as there has been in previous years.


John Thomas Hackett: Then what is this $4,500,000 for?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is the provision for subventions. As my hon. friend knows, a subvention policy for moving coal has been in force since 1921. This amount of $4,500,000 is the vote that has been standard for several years, though last year the expenditures amounted to only about $1,500,000. It depends upon the amount of coal mined and the distance it has to be transported.


John Thomas Hackett: That applies to coal mined in the west as well as the east?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What was the amount actually expended last year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The expenditure was $1,550,000.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Do I correctly understand that that was the amount expended out of $4,500,000 in the
estimates?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. The sum of $4,500,000 has been the vote in normal times, and it was carried during the war as a standard provision. Throughout the war, however, use of the coal in the locality in wljich it was mined cut down the requirements, with the result that during those years the subvention vote was not completely used. As my hon. friend knows, the subvention is to pay transportation costs on coal.


Angus MacInnis: If I understood the minister aright a moment ago, in replying to a question asked by the hon. member for Stanstead he said that in the matter of coal and oil for fuel, private enterprise was running free, and that the public did not have any protection unless private enterprise pro-83166-351
tected it, or something to that effect. Some lime ago in the house the minister made a statement warning the country of the danger of a fuel shortage next winter, and saying there was a guarantee of only sufficient fuel for those who now had contracts with oil suppliers. Since that time I have noticed that certain firms have been advertising the installation of oil burners. Perhaps all the people of Canada who wanted to instal oil burners did not hear the minister's statement in the house or read of it in the newspapers. Was anything done to see that oil burners were not installed in homes when there was no hope of getting fuel oil for next winter?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Every fuel dealer in the country was circularized by the department. The statement I made in the house was distributed as widely as we could distribute it. I am sure no reputable oil company was a party to selling oil burners if there was not a supply of oil. Some oil burners were imported from outside the country and sold in Canada, in spite of all the warnings we could give. It is quite beyond the power of the government to protect people who will not be protected. We could only tell them the story, and then, if they insisted on buying, there was nothing we could do about the matter.


Angus MacInnis: I was referring particularly to advertisements appearing in the Ottawa newspapers since that statement was made. I do not know whether these were reputable firms, but the advertisements were there.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is possible that a dealer with a firm contract had reserve oil he could supply. That is not beyond the bounds of possibility; but certainly the government did all it could to warn the people of the danger they were running.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I should like to ask one down-to-earth question on this item. Are the nine individuals I see listed as employees of the dominion fuel board to be taken over as employees of the dominion coal board when it assumes its obligations; and, if so, what is to be their position under the civil service regulations?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are protected under the legislation. As to whether or not they will be taken over, I will give the stock answer, that government policy will be made known in due course. I do not think that is a proper question.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I do not think this stock answer that government policy will be made known in due course is a very good answer.



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As a matter of fact, I have become sick of hearing it. Rather than give that answer, I think the minister would have much more success in getting his estimates through and in satisfying the committee if he would give a reasonably definite answer.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am doing all right.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National research council-
351. Salaries and other expenses of the national research council, $6,043,002.
['I am doing all right.']
Howard Charles Green: Last year we made some
important amendments to the act which sets up the national research council. What is the position at the present time? For example, can the minister say whether or not any crown companies have been set up by the research council, and, if so, what those companies are? As I remember it, authority was given the research council to set up these crown companies. Has that authority been used?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No crown company has been established. We are working on the legislation for the crown company to own and commercialize patents owned or discovered by the government. On account of the officers of the research council being busy in other directions the work is not as far advanced as we should like. But the answer to my hon. friend is that no corporations have been established.


Howard Charles Green: It is the intention to set
up a crown company to handle patents owned by the dominion?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Does the minister not think it would be wise to bring in a statute making provision for such a company, rather than having it a subsidiary of the national research council? I should think a company which is to commercialize patents-and that is the word the minister used-would be entering a new sphere for Canada, and that would merit some consideration in the house.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is not a new sphere.
The research council does commercialize patents today. It has considerable income from patents which have been patented by the national research council itself. I believe it amounts to $25,000 a year. There are in the patent office today some 3,000 German patents which should be exploited. Some of them are valuable, anid some are not. But they are simply lying in the patent office. Unless someone comes in, works his way through them and finds out what is valuable and what is not, they are not likely to be of value. ' In addition, patents are taken out by universities in the United States. It is

customary for universities to turn patents in to be exploited by the corporation which exploits patents in that country. Another reason for the corporation is that it is the custom of the United States government to exploit American patents in the United States, but to turn their exploratory efforts in other countries to government agents in those countries, provided that there are such agencies.
I see every reason for having an agency of this kind. Indeed, I think we have been late in setting up our machinery. I can see [DOT] no possible harm in it. If we are to exploit government-ownedl patents we might as well exploit them efficiently, rather than in a casual way.


Howard Charles Green: That is true.
Mr. HAiCKETT: In the making of rubber have there been patents?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Rubber is in a somewhat peculiar position. All the patents on rubber are pooled by the manufacturers in Canada and the United States. In the early days of the war it was necessary to effect the art of making rubber quickly; and by agreement under the sponsorship of the United States government everyone who held patents bearing on the manufacture of rubber put those patents in the pool. Canada was admitted to the pool, and the provision is that we must expend a certain amount each year in investigation and research, and turn in any patents we have to the pool.	[DOT]


John Thomas Hackett: What happens to the revenue?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The patents are held for the industry itself. There is no charge. If you are a member of the pool you have the right to use all the patents. If, as a member of the pool, you discover a patent, by agreement that patent is turned into the pool, without recompense.


John Thomas Hackett: Were the patents to which the minister has referred, which might be held by the corporation which is to be or has been set up, the fruits of the efforts of the national research council?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: WThen the minister spoke about some 3,000 German patents lying in the patent office, and that unless somebody came along and looked them over we would not know what value they had-and I believe I have stated correctly wha't be said-I was wondering whether there was not some concerted plan to

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deal with them. The impression I gained was that it was being left in abeyance at the present time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The plan to deal with them is to form a corporation with a competent staff to merchandise the valuable patents. They are simply there in the patent office, and if my bon. friend wishes to go there, search through these patents and exploit them, it would be possible. But in the hands of a competent staff certain patents could be offered to manufacturers who could probably use them to advantage, and the revenue would derive to the crown.


John Thomas Hackett: I should 'think the revenue would not go to the crown. Would it not go to that fund in respect of those who have claims against alien enemies?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Possibly. But there is no doubt that these are practically all I.G. Farben patents, and I doubt very much if-


John Thomas Hackett: That is alien enemy property.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. And I doubt very much if the I. G. Farben Company will be returned to Germany.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What about the Bayer patents?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are owned by the custodian of enemy alien property.


Agar Rodney Adamson: He still has ownership of them?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: I understand that this crown company will check up on all the German-owned patents registered in the patent office, and then it will issue licences to private firms for the use of those patents; is that correct?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John Thomas Hackett: I thought the minister said they would sell them.


Howard Charles Green: Sell them, or issue a licence.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: It seems to me that there is not quite the same expedition in dealing with this matter to which we have been accustomed in the actions of the minister, especially during the war. The minister has talked as if it were something which should be done but which for a considerable number of months he has waited to do.
83166-351J


Clarence Decatur Howe: A year ago I was full of enthusiasm; but, after listening to opinions from the opposition, I decided that possibly it would be a bad thing, so that I have been turning it over in my mind.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Oh, you cannot flatter us like that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: But I have come to the conclusion it is all right.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I should like a serious answer to my question.


An hon. MEMBER:: Carried.


Howard Charles Green: No, it is not carried yet. We have further questions to ask.


John Thomas Hackett: While hon. members are thinking over their questions, may I ask one? Do I understand the minister to say that the corporation will endeavour to investigate these German patents and to realize upon them, and that the proceeds will go to the custodian of alien enemy property for division among those who have claims against alien enemy countries?


Mr. McCULLOUGH (Assiniboia):: Mr. Chairman-


John Thomas Hackett: Just a minute. We would like an answer.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This would be an agency to exploit crown property. For example, in my time a valuable patent was worked out in the Department of Mines and Resources, one which returns. I believe, an income of something like $100,000 a year. It is being administered by the Department of Mines and Resources. The purpose would be that valuable patents of that kind would be dealt with by people skilled in the management of patents. Almost every country in the world except Canada. has an organization of this kind. The United States agency has a tremendous income from patents discovered by the United States government.


John Thomas Hackett: I understand the answer by the minister with regard to patents which may be registered by Canadians, or other than alien enemies. But my question had to do with those 3.000 patents owned by Germans. I understood the minister to say that this corporation would investigate patents and bring them to sale. I asked him if it was the intention of the company, wThen these patents have been sold, to turn the funds over to the custodian of alien enemy property.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The corporation would administer the patent and would charge for its services. The funds that "ime due would be

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turned over to the custodian of alien enemy property to be administered according to the law, just as funds paid to a university would be handed over and then returned to the university.


Mr. WINTERS:: I should like to say a word in support of the plea made earlier this session by the hon. member for Levis for higher salaries for engineer personnel of national research council. Generally speaking, these engineers are the equivalent of engineers to be found in industry, and possibly their general average ability is higher because the acceptance standards for employment are much higher. Salaries paid to engineers in industry have increased considerably, and in many cases the only thing that prevents engineers in the national research council from going to the United States or to other employment is a well developed sense of loyalty which most of us find it impossible to understand. I shall say no more at this stage other than to urge the minister to do everything he can to increase the salaries of engineer personnel at the national research council.


Edward George McCullough: I notice that this item is for well over $6,000,000. When discoveries are made in the research council and patents obtained-picrite would be an example-just what is done? Can the minister state whether the sale of the Welland plant included world rights or only Canadian rights to picrite?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Picrite was not discovered in Canada; the formula came out of England. The continuous process for making it was developed here and was adopted by other countries. I do, not know that anything was patentable in connection with picrite, but it was not the practice in war time to patent discoveries of that kind.


Edward George McCullough: Was
there any correspondence with the British government in connection with turning over the rights to the American Cyanamid Company ?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There was nothing to turn over; the process for making picrite is well known.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The minister's facetious answer to my question still makes me want a serious answer. He said that he had been full of enthusiasm about this thing a year ago, but that the arguments made on this side of the house had chilled him. Of course we appreciate that very much, but we do not take it seriously. Quite seriously, what I should like to know is this.
[Mr. Howe.J
The minister was keen on this a year ago, and for some reason which he has not yet given us he no longer believes in it. What is the reason it has not been gone ahead with?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I wished to give no such impression. We had a lot of things to consider. The Chalk river plant came in and required the time of the senior staff. One or two staff appointments which we expected to be able to make did not develop, or at least we had to use the staff in another direction.


John Thomas Hackett: I may be dense, but I have not yet been able to understand if it is the function of the minister to sell German patents and then make over the proceeds to the custodian of alien enemy property.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Will this crown company also handle inventions of employees of the national research council?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, all of them.


Howard Charles Green: I notice that $3,425,000, or over half the item, is for term appointments and temporary assistance. Can the minister explain how?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Practically all scientific personnel are term appointments and would be classed as temporaries. A scientist usually does not start in the civil service and work his way up; it is not desirable that he should. If he intends to be a great scientist he should not stay too long in one place.


Howard Charles Green: Does that not put the scientist who is a civil servant in a bad position? There are many scientists in different departments who are permanent civil servants and who have excellent standing as scientists. I suggest that the minister's remark was unfair to them.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It was not unfair to them at all. They have chosen to be civil servants; they have chosen to stay in one job for a long time or at least in one line of endeavour. Most young scientists, and I think the wiser young scientists, prefer to gather experience for a few years by changing occupations. I think that produces a better all-round scientist.


Howard Charles Green: There was some doubt last year as to how the plant at Chalk river would be operated. Will it be operated by the atomic energy control board, by the national research council or through some joint arrangement?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is being operated by the national research council for the atomic energy board. The atomic energy board have the

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responsibility for the plant, but by arrangement they have turned over its operation to the national research council.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: In the details on pages 213' and 214 of the estimates there is a list of a staff of 101, the cost being $378,437. Then there is an item, term appointment and temporary assistance, $3,425,713. I suggest that we ought to have some general indication as to the nature of the work being carried on which is costing over $3,000,000 for salaries and wages. I am not asking for a lot of meticulous detail, but I suggest that the minister should give us some idea where that $3,425,713 is going?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Only yesterday I tabled the annual report of the national research council, which specifies that work in great detail.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National research council-
S52. Expanded research on the utilization of farm crops, $401,400.
['Only yesterday I tabled the annual report of the national research council, which specifies that work in great detail.']
Mr. CHARLTON:: While we are increasing expenditures practically all the way across the board, it seems to me that this is a poor time to decrease this item.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is a complete revote. The appropriation was to build a scientific laboratory in Saskatoon. The vote last year was $587,000, and $185,600 was spent. There is now a revote of $401,400. In other words, they were not able to spend the money last year, and the rest of it is being provided this year.


John Alpheus Charlton: Is this department carrying on any research work in chemurgy outside of this one particular building?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This was just a laboratory building.


John Alpheus Charlton: They are not carrying on any work at all?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The national research council will use the building and staff it out of their ordinary vote. This item is simply to build the building in western Canada.


John Alpheus Charlton: The salaries of 101 employees amount to $378,437, which works out at an average that is out of line with other departments.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Usually the criticism is the other way, that the research council does not pay salaries commensurate with those paid the rest of the service.


John Alpheus Charlton: I say that they are very much out of line with those of other departments.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Too low or too high?


John Alpheus Charlton: I am not criticizing that they are too high. I simply say that the salaries are very much higher than the average paid in other departments.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As a matter of fact, the salaries of the research council staff are not higher than for comparable positions in other departments.


John Alpheus Charlton: The average salary is $3,746 for 101 employees.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What is the classification of those employed?


John Alpheus Charlton: That is the average salary.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Including scientific workers.


John Alpheus Charlton: There are scientific
workers in agriculture, and yet the average for that department would be around $2,000.


Edward George McCullough: Perhaps the minister was in the same doubt that I was whether the hon. member wanted to see the research council employees paid higher or lower salaries. Usually my hon. friends to my right are decrying government expenditures. I am not clear whether the hon. member thinks these employees are underpaid or not.
Being a farmer from the west end recognizing that in the west, particularly in the prairie provinces, we have a very unstable economy owing to fluctuations in prices and production, I should like to say a word on this item. It is to provide, in part, for a research building at Saskatoon for research on the utilization of farm crops. I am tremendously interested in the chemurgic use of agricultural products. I have recommended in this house on various occasions that it is essential that we plan for the ever-normal granary in the west and that when we have large stocks of wheat and feed grain on hand in times of so-called over production and surpluses, we should plan for the utilization of these surplus products for various chemurgic purposes. I would impress upon the minister that we should have both research and real planning, so that when we have these large volumes of wheat and! other grains on the prairies our farmers will not once again have depressed prices but that, through planning, surplus products such as flax seed may be processed to make linseed oil and our wheat be processed for glyco and for turning out feed products. That would help to stabilize our economy. I think we should be spending even more money on this kind of thing, the chemurgic uses of wheat and other farm products.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Supply-Reconstruction and Supply
National research council-
353. Housing research and industrial chemistry building-preliminary explorations, plans and specifications, $100,000.
Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Would the minister
explain 'this item, which seems to be a new one? I was under the impression that housing research had been going on in the country and that last year certain men were sent abroad to study building methods in Sweden, and I also understood that w'e had a department of planning in respect of low-cost housing and apartment houses to be built in conjunction with municipalities.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is nothing to get excited about. It is just another laboratory building for chemical engineering research and housing research. It will cost $742,000, of which $100,000 is being voted this year to get the planning and perhaps the foundations under way. The remainder may be voted next year.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Why housing research?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Housing is just a name. Call it a laboratory. Every time my hon. friend sees the word "housing" he makes a speech.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Because I am interested in the people of Canada who have not the kind of housing they should have.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are luscious items coming on which my hon. friend can discuss housing for two hours, as he probably will. But this is for a laboratory building.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: I am not going to speak on it for two hours or two minutes. I am just saying that it is a little late in the day to be preparing a building for housing research.


Howard Charles Green: This item has nothing to do with what we commonly consider the housing problem?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is for a research laboratory. In it will be housing research and chemical engineering research.


Howard Charles Green: Several different kinds of research are to be carried on in the building?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: What type of research in connection with housing is- to be carried on?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I suppose the conductivity of housing materials, strength of materials, substitutes for materials, heating, radiant heat and various innovations in housing. The purpose of the laboratory is to test their efficiency and recommend their use or otherwise.


Howard Charles Green: Is any progress being made in finding new materials and new methods of building homes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The methods are in the experimental stage. Nothing revolutionary has been introduced to date either here or elsewhere.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Does the government recommend the standards of the American society for testing materials, and1 is this to be a structural materials laboratory?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, we have a structural materials laboratory here. This is to be a laboratory for testing building materials, conductivity, efficiency of heating and air conditioning, and everything to do with housing.


Edward George McCullough: In Saskatchewan we have set up laboratory tests and experiments along the line of usin^ Housing substitutes rather than the orthodox housing materials. Can the minister say whether anything really constructive has been done under this item, and whether or not we as members of parliament may receive information on the results?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad to send my hon. friend a pamphlet that is issued by the national research council on this subject. The pamphlet is issued and broadcast to all interested parties. The department puts out a publication each week.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: Is it a fact that in respect of building material and building methods some officials were sent overseas either last spring or fall to study building methods in Sweden or in England? Does that tie in, in any way, with this particular item of a building for housing research?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know of no officials who were sent over for that purpose. There may have been officials go over; but all the literature from every country in the world pours into the national research council. For instance, there is a complete exchange of research of that type with the United States, and I am sure there is an exchange with Sweden and also with the United Kingdom.


Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: I had reference to a specific mission. I am wrong in that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think so.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I think we are all believers in research; we should be, but we want to make sure that the research is not a duplication of anything else. Some of the type of research work the minister referred to is carried on by the Ontario research foundation. What assurance can the minister give us that there is close liaison between the type of research that is being done in the Ontario research foundation and the work referred to

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here to make sure that there is no unnecessary duplication? I know something about the considerable amount of research work done on heating materials by the Ontario research foundation, and other work of the kind to which the minister referred. Can we have some assurance that there is no duplication on the part of the two research agencies?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The national research council maintains a man in Washington solely for the purpose of avoiding duplication. The business of the man in Washington is to know exactly what is going on. in research so as to advise the council whenever there is danger of overlapping or duplication. The closest possible liaison is maintained, not only between Canada and the United States, but between Canada and the United Kingdom and, I dare say, with Ontario as well.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What about the Ontario research foundation to which I have referred?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is a complete exchange of information.


Edward George McCullough: Can the minister say whether or not there is any liaison or cooperation between this research and the work being undertaken by the province of Saskatchewan?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The national research council is the coordinating agency for all the work of the provinces. The national research council has been carrying on experimentation for many years along the lines suggested by my hon. friend. If he wishes the process for making glycol out of wheat he has only to ask the national research council for a formula on the subject and he can obtain the information. The plant built by the Saskatchewan pool at Saskatoon for manufacturing glycol from wheat and from various other processes was all developed from data in the national research council here in Ottawa. I used to receive calls from the agencies of the Saskatchewan pool to discuss the matter with them. I know they obtained their information from the national research council. The laboratory at Saskatoon will be manned by the national research council.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National research council-
S5i. Grant to the Royal Society of Canada, $4,500.
Agar Rodney Adamson: I am not disapproving
the grant to the Royal Society of Canada. They do excellent work. I know of the lectures they provide and the information service which they supply, but I should like a little further information as to the reasons for this grant and what it is being used for.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This grant has been in the
estimates of the national research council for at least the last ten years. I understand that it is by arrangement between the council and the society.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I know it is an old grant, but I should like to know whether the royal society uses it for travelling expenses, lectures, or a definite work of any kind.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think it is just a sustaining grant which goes into the general funds.


John Thomas Hackett: Will the minister say
whether this is the only grant?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


John Thomas Hackett: I think another grant is made by the government to the royal society. Possibly the minister can say this is the only one he knows of.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is the only one I know of.


Angus MacInnis: The hon. member for
York West said that the society does a useful work. I shall display my ignorance and ask what work it does. Unless I get an answer, I shall remain in ignorance, which will not be good for the committee or myself.


Clarence Decatur Howe: All I can say is that the members of the royal society are the most distinguished scientists of Canada. They publish papers. It is considered! the highest honour that can come to a scientist to be appointed to the royal society. I believe it is worth while as a forum and for the recognition of scientists in general.	[DOT]


John Thomas Hackett: The royal society's interest extends beyond what is properly known as science. I think it goes into art, music, literature and the whole sphere of cultural life.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I know it gives lectures in Toronto every so often on scientific and research effort. I should like to know what else it does.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Atomic energy control board-
355. Administration expenses, $115,000.
Howard Charles Green: I have some questions to ask on this item.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I suggest that we call it eleven o'clock, which would not be too far from the truth.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Parliament Hill-Traffic
[Stage Direction]
Saturday, July 12, 1947