THE PRIME MINISTER


Mr. JOHN BRACKEN (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure I shall have the unanimous approval of all present in extending to the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) congratulations upon his recovery and a most cordial welcome in his return to the house. During his absence we watched with some concern the occasional reports on his progress. While I cannot always speak with the unanimous support of hon. members in the house, I am sure that on this occasion I do so when I say we are glad to see him back. We trust he has fully recovered, and we wish for him only the best of health and strength in the strenuous days ahead.


Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, in what the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken) has said I am sure he has the unanimous support of all hon. members. We join with all others in the house in expressing our pleasure at seeing the Prime Minister back, and we express the hope that his good health may long continue.
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River): Mr. Speaker, I am sure I represent the views of all those in this group when I join with the other two hon. members who have spoken to welcome the Prime Minister back to the house after his illness, and to say to him we are happy he has weathered the storm and is back looking as well as he does. Let me hope the Prime Minister will not be able to say, as Sir John A. Macdonald once said, "Those leaders of the opposition, when they speak, always do make me sick".


Mr. JEAN FRANCOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata):: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the
gracious speeches which have been made by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bracken), the leader of the C.C.F. (Mr. Coldwell) and the leader of the Social Credit group (Mr. Low). On behalf of the rank and file of the Liberal party I am delighted to welcome the Prime Minister to the house. We were told that he was not well-but he looks so well. Perhaps he just wanted to meditate about public policies. But he had us all worried about him. It is a source of satisfaction now to see him looking so hale and hearty, and especially to see him with his good smile. The Prime Minister, when he smiles, is not at
The Prime Minister

all the same man as when he frowns. I prefer him when he is smiling, and I offer him our very best wishes.


Mr. BROOKS:: What group are you speaking for?


Jean-François Pouliot: I am speaking for all men of good will, of whom there must be quite a number in this chamber. Of course the Prime Minister may at times leave the house when he feels like it. I can tell him however that the discussions in the house and the atmosphere of it are quite different from what they are when he is outside the country. When he is within the country the only thing we have to report to him is progress.
Many members of parliament have spoken, and all have made good speeches, worthy of their constituencies. They have tried to make things as smooth as possible for the Prime Minister, so that he would have no trouble when he came back. Now he is here with us and again I extend to him our best wishes. If my hon. friend the leader of the opposition, had not spoken so well, I would have extended wishes also on his behalf.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I need
scarcely say how deeply grateful I am to my hon. friend the leader of the opposition, to the leaders of other parties and to the hon. member for Temiscouata for the very kind remarks they have just made. May I say to the entire membership of the house how deeply I appreciate the kindly manner in which hon. members have received my return to my accustomed seat in this chamber. I
I should like also to say how very much I appreciated the kind inquiries and messages which throughout my absence came from hon. members to Laurier House. I assure Your Honour, it has been a matter of deep regret to me to have been unavoidably absent during the past three weeks. I certainly shall do all within my power from now on not to have a repetition of anything of the kind I have recently experienced. May I say that I realize at this moment, perhaps as I never have done before, what it means to be able in health and strength to participate in the proceedings of the House of Commons, and to enjoy the companionship of one's fellow members in parliament.
I do thank hon. members most warmly for the kind welcome which they have just given to me. I shall do my best to be on hand right along, but if I should find it desirable to take things a little easy for a short time I know I may count on the understanding of hon. members of the house.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. FRASER:: 1.	Is the Canadian government holding in storage; tools, machines, equipment, etc., ordered by the Russian government during the war?
2.	If so, (a) where are these machines, equipment, etc., stored; (b) what is the value of this equipment, etc.; (e) has equipment been paid for by the Russian government; (d) does Canada pay the cost of storage; (e) what is the cost to Canada for guards, etc., to protect this equipment; (f) when is Russia taking delivery of this equipment?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	No.
2.	Anwered by No. 1.


PENITENTIARIES
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Since last session of parliament, what recommendations contained in the Archambault report on prison reform have been put into effect?
2.	Has anything been done to adopt the Borstal system, recommended by this report?
3.	What other improvements or changes have been made by the department since the appointment of Major-General Gibson?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	Since the last session of parliament the recommendations contained in the Aroham-bault report on prison reform have received detailed consideration by the commissioner appointed for that purpose, pursuant to section 4A of the Penitentiary Act, 1939. The commissioner's report which was tabled in the house on February 17th, 1947, gives details of the recommendations which have already been put into effect.
2.	No. It has not been feasible to apply the Borstal system to the existing penitentiaries under the jurisdiction of the federal government, The royal commissioners, at page 199 of their report, stated: "Your commissioners are of the opinion that any satisfactory adaptation of the Borstal system is impossible in penitentiary institutions, either in its essential features or in its principles."
3.	Answered by No. 1.


AMMONIUM NITRATE
Mr. BURTON:: 1.	What was the cost of producing ammonium nitrate by (11 the Alberta Nitrogen Products, at Calgary; (2) the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Co., at Trail; (3) the Welland Chemi-

Questions
cal Works Ltd., at Welland, during each of the years that these plants were operated by the government?
2.	On what market or markets was ammonium nitrate from each of these three plants sold?
3.	Is ammonium nitrate now being produced al a:i.vcf these plants? If so, which of them?
4.	What products are IIO'.V being produced at the Welland plant?
5.	To whom and/or on what markets are each of these products being sold and in what quantities?
6.	In the sale of each of these plants what steps if any were taken to protect Canadian users of ammonium nitrate or other products from undue increases in prices?
7.	What was the retail price of nitrate of soda, ammonium sulphate and cyanamid in 1939?
8.	Which, if any, of these plants have been closed down; on what dates, and why?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	The average cost of production per ton during the period 1940-1945 at the following plants was: (1) Alberta Nitrogen Products, $19; (2) Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company, $29; (3) Welland Chemical Works Limited, $39.
2.	Chiefly in the United States, although relatively small quantities were sold in Canada and other western hemisphere countries.
3.	Yes, all of them.
4.	Sulphuric acid, dicyanamid and ammonium nitrate fertilizer.
5.	These plants are now privately owned and operated and their transactions are not a matter of government record.
6.	None, other than wartime prices and trade board powers to regulate distribution and prices.
7.	Retail prices are not available. However, the wholesale price per ton, F.O.B. producers' plants or major distributing centres, in 1939 was as follows: Nitrate of soda, $42.50; Ammonium Sulphate, $38.60; Cyanimid, $43.10.
8.	None have been closed.


WARTIME HOUSING-HAMILTON AND WENTWORTH COUNTY
Mr. ROSS (Hamilton East):: 1.	Has the corporation of the city of Hamilton, Ontario, or any member or officer thereof made representation to the Wartime Housing Limited, with respect to purchase by tenants of individual dwellings controlled by Wartime Housing Limited, in the city of Hamilton and county of Wentworth?
2.	Has Wartime Housing Limited taken any steps with respect to the sale of above mentioned dwellings?
3.	If so, will veterans be given preference in the purchase of such dwellings?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	No.
2.	No. However, general policy of the sale of Wartime Housing houses to tenants has
been introduced. It is contingent, however, in most cases, on the municipality concerned being prepared to negotiate a new agreement permitting this sale. When this renegotiation is completed and the land surveyed, tenants are given the opportunity of purchasing under conditions outlined hereunder, or, alternatively, they may remain as tenants. The conditions of sale are:
(a)	Sale is effected only to tenants.
(b)	Minimum down payment of fifteen per cent and monthly minimum payments at the normal rate they now pay in the form of rent. This will include insurance, taxes, interest and capital.
(c)	The tenant cannot acquire title of the property for a period of five years. The object of this restriction is to prevent resale and speculation.
(d)	On completion of the agreement of sale the normal tax rate of the municipality becomes applicable.
(e)	Every endeavour is made to ensure fair appraisal values when houses are sold to tenants.
3.	During the war years, houses built by Wartime Housing Limited were tenanted by munitions workers, some of whom were veterans. Since July 1944 these houses were built only for occupancy by veterans. In the cases of houses which have been made available for purchase by the tenant, under circumstances as outlined in Part 2 above, the tenant, be he munitions worker or veteran, is given the opportunity of purchasing or remaining as a tenant.


VULCAN AIR TRAINING SCHOOL, ALBERTA, RAILWAY LINE
Mr. HANSELL:: 1.	How many miles of railway was built as a spur line between the village of Kirkcaldy, Alberta, and the Vulcan air training school?
2.	What was the total cost of this railway, and was this cost borne by the public treasury?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	5-5 miles.
2.	Total cost, $70,041.88. Paid from Royal Canadian Air Force funds.


HOUSING-BROWNSBURG, QUE.
Mr. HEON:: 1.	How many units were erected by Wartime Housing at Brownsburg, Quebec, on (a) the HacVicar site; (b) the Filion site?
2.	What was the cost per unit?
3.	Was the land on which these units were erected purchased outright or leased, and what was the cost (a) at MacVicar's; (b) at Filion's?

Questions

4.	How many units were rented, and what amount in rent was received per unit from date of occupation to date of dismantling?
5.	How many units have been dismantled and re-erected at Cote St. Paul, and at what cost per unit, including transport?
6.	What was the cost of laying water and sewerage lines at (a) the MacVicar property; (b) the Filion property?
7.	How much was paid to the corporation of the village of Brownsburg for taking its water and sewerage lines to the Filion property?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	(a) Fifty housing units were erected on the MacVicar site, (b) Fifty housing units were erected on the Filion site and adjacent area.
2.	The unit cost of the houses built on the MacVicar site, including land acquisition, land improvements, services and equipment was $4,083.44.
The unit cost of the houses built on the Filion site, as above, was $3,858,97.
3.	All land at Brownsburg was purchased at the following cost:
(a)	MacVicar, $7,250; (b) FiMion, $7,458.
4.	Forty-four of these houses were dismantled and moved from Brownsburg to Montreal. Rentals collected by Wartime Housing Limited between April 1943 and September 1945, when they were dismantled, amounted to $14,157.97. 8 of these 44 houses were transfered to Defence Industries Limited during the first month of operation and were administered by that organization. Further rental data therefore is not available. See schedule below for detail.
For the other 56 houses at Brownsburg, Wartime Housing Limited collected $61,823.61 in rent. Seventeen of these were transferred to and administered by Defence Industries Limited so further rental data is not available.
5.	Forty-four units were dismantled and moved from Brownsburg to Cote St. Paul, Montreal. Separate costs were not maintained on this dismantling and re-erection project as an additional 35 houses were shipped from DeSalaberry, and 49 houses were shipped from Arvida, Quebec.
The average over-all cost of dismantling, moving and re-erecting on cement foundations with full excavation was $3,927.11 per unit.
6.	(a) $28,048.17; (b) $12,705.09.
7.	No amount was paid to the village of Brownsburg in respect of any capital expenditure involved in the installation of water and sewerage lines to Wartime Housing Limited projects. Water and sewer rates, however, have been collected by Wartime Housing Limited and turned over to the municipality as, and when, collected from the tenants.
[Mr. Heon.)
Schedule
D.I.L. Project:	Rent Collected
House	by Wartime
Number	Housing Limited
2 			 S 30 00
3 			 30 00
4 			 30 00
5 			 nil
6 			 nil
7 			 30 00
21 			 nil
22 			 30 00
Beurling Project:	
65 			 600 58
66 			 90 00
67 			 853 55
68 			 150 00
69 			 155 35
70 			 nil
71 			 497 36
72 			 638 00
73 			 419 98
74 			 225 00
Beurling Project:	Rent Collected
House	by Wartime
Number	Housing Limited
75 			 nil
76 		
77 			 180 00
78 			 827 00
79 			 715 00
80 			 676 00
81 			 616 00
82 			 400 00
83 			 752 90
84 			 378 39
85 			 171 30
86 			 585 81
87 			 720 00
88 			 210 00
89 			 388 00
90 			 201 00
91 			 60 00
92 			 412 00
93 			 164 52
94 			 420 00
95 			 360 00
96 			 173 23
97 			 810 00
98 			 390 00
99 			 377 00
100 			 390 00
Total 			 $ 14,157 97
Note:-The first eight houses shown in this list were transferred to Defence Industries Limited during the first month of operation and were administered by that company. Further rental data, therefore, is not available from Wartime Housing Limited.

Questions


WHEAT AGREEMENTS WITH THE UNITED KINGDOM
Mr. COYLE:: 1.	What individual countries, other than the United Kingdom, have approached Canada since January, 1946, with a view to negotiating wheat agreements of one year or longer in duration?
2.	With what individual countries are negotiations still proceeding?
3.	With what countries were wheat export agreements arranged?
4.	What were the reasons for failure to reach agreements with other countries?


Mr. MacKINNON:: 1.	It is not considered appropriate to disclose approaches which other countries have made to Canada looking toward obtaining supplies of wheat, either through long-term contracts or on the basis of shorter term agreements.
2.	None.
3.	There are no long-term agreements similar to that of the United Kingdom but a short-term arrangement was made with the Netherlands and Belgium.
4.	See answer to No. 1.


GOLD RESERVES
Mr. CASE:: 1.	What was the total amount of gold in ounces exported from Canada during the calendar year 1946?
2.	What was the total amount of gold in ounces imported into Canada during the calendar year 1946?
3.	What was the total value of gold reserves held in Canada as of December 3ll, 1946?
4.	What was the total value of bank notes in circulation in Canada as of December 31, 1946?
5.	Are gold reserves held by the chartered banks in Canada, and if so, what was the total amount of of December 31, 1946?
6.	Is any gold sold to foreign countries, and held in Canada, and if so, what was the amount as of December 3,1, 1946 ?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	The total amount of gold coin and bullion exported from Canada during the calendar year 1946 was 9,831,435 fine ounces. (As
all exports are included, the figure given does not necessarily reflect exports of Canadian-owned gold.)
2.	The total amount of gold coin and bullion imported into Canada during the calendar year 1946 was 10,622 fine ounces. (As all imports are included, the figure given does not necessarily reflect imports of gold for the account of Canadians.)
3.	This information will be made available in the report of the Foreign Exchange Control Board covering the year 1946 which, under the provisions of Section 39 of the Foreign Exchange Control Act, will be submitted to the Minister of Finance before May 30 and tabled within fourteen days of receipt.
4.	The total value of Bank of Canada notes in circulation as of December 31, 1946, was $1,186,201,680.50. The total value of chartered bank notes in circulation as of December 31, 1946, was $21,422,006.
5.	Under Section 28 of the Bank of Canada Act each chartered bank has been required to transfer to the Bank of Canada any gold coin or bullion owned and held by it in Canada. Consequently the chartered banks do not hold any gold in Canada apart from small amounts received from their customers and in process of being transferred to the Bank of Canada. The total amount held as of December 31, 1946, was $5.
6.	Sales of gold in Canada to foreign countries in 1946 amounted to 313,915 fine ounces, of which the entire amount was held in Canada as of December 31, 1946.


INDEBTEDNESS OF OTHER COUNTRIES TO CANADA
Mr. FLEMING:: What were the amounts of government indebtedness of other countries to Canada, individually and in the aggregate, on the following dates: (a) September 1, 1939; (b) August 18, 1945; (c) January 1, 1946; (d) January!, 1947?


Mr. MAYHEW:: Governments
Loans made in post 191418 war period
Greece	
Roumania	
Ship Stores Advances Account, etc.
United Kingdom	
Loan made under the authority of The War Appropriation (United Kingdom Financing) Act, 1942.
United Kingdom	
83166-75i
August 31, 1939
August 31, 1945
6,525,000 00 $	6,525,000 00
24,329,262 40	24,329,262 40
340,075 24
589,693.132 32
December 31, December 31, 1945	1946
6,525,000 00 $	6,525,000 00
24329,262 40	24,329.262 40
561,279,709 22	471,910.126 06
Questions

August 31,
Governments	11939
Loans made under the authority of the Export Credits Insurance Act.
Belgium	
China	
Czechoslovakia	
France	
Netherlands	
Netherlands Indies....	....
Norway	
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics		....
August 31, 1945
4,633,200 00
14.267,074 60 2,500,666 66 1,200,000 00
December 31, 1945
18,000,000 00
700,000 00
24,967,074 60 600,000 00 6,200,000 00
2,489,500 00
December 31, 1946
51,000.000 00 16,462.646 00 3.875.448 00 143,800.000 00 60,396.245 89 5,400,000 00 16,406.000 00
2,848.171 48
Loan made under the authority of the United Kingdom Financial Agreement Act, 1946.
United Kingdom			
'Temporary advances under section 3 of the War Appropriation Acts.
Australia	
Belgium	
France	
India	
Netherlands	
United Kingdom			
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics	
Loan for the purchase of wheat authorized by P.C. 7822 of Sept. 1,
1942.
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics	
Air Training Plan Agreements.
United Kingdom			
Current Recoverable Accounts.
Australia	
Belgium	
Czechoslovakia	
France	
Greece	
India	
Netherlands	
Newfoundland	
New Zealand	
Norway	
Poland	
Portugal	
South Africa	
United Kingdom			
United States	
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics	
Yugoslavia


S 31,194,337 64 540,000,000 00 22,348,393 96 10,000,000 00 446,732,281 39 10,414 58 367 04 587 77 8,791 60 513 11 3.454 66 4.747 38 13,548 29 43.452 31 339.716 87 7.720 04 1 44 10 35 26,366,560 04 7,220,979 82 139,781 16 410 42 11,156,389,401 55 4,033,791 71 4,502,708 65 34,885,534 25 41,719,064 42 4,552,829 44 164,095,407 29 7,372,685 99 10,000,000 00 445,864,596 09
[Stage Direction]
Cr. 34,158 03 546 43 587 77 724 32 178 15 387 15 4,784 12 4,308 04 220,462 17 96,333 41 8,219 91 66 00 126 76 23.256,922 56 3,981,021 56
260,148 26 Cr. 224 32
[Stage Direction]
833 66 2 50 Cr. 3 74 4.407 18
464 67 3,316 72 3,583 16 3,227 74 9.899 61
739,421 26 746,367 72
21,812 69
[Stage Direction]
N.B. The dates used in this statement are the nearest dates to those called for in this inquiry for which indebtedness totals are available.
[Stage Direction]
Questions

Mr. DROPE:: 1.	What is the cost laid down in Canadian ports of natural rubber produced in the East Indies, and what would have been the cost (a) six months ago; (b) a year ago?
2.	What is the present cost to the Canadian tire manufacturer of synthetic rubber manufactured by the Polymer Corporation and what was it (a) six months ago; (b) a year ago?
3.	What quantities of natural rubber for automobile tires were released by the rubber controller in the last calendar year and in the last six months of 1946?
4.	Was there any specific design to urge the use of the Polymer Corporation's synthetic rubber on Canadian manufacturers of automobile tires?
5.	Is there any undertaking on the part of manufacturers of automobile tires in Canada in existence now to use the Polymer Corporation's synthetic rubber in quantity in the manufacture of tires?
6.	Has the government the results of any comparative studies on the safety of synthetic rubber tires in comparison with natural rubber tires; (a) on icy streets in cold weather conditions normal in large sections of Canada; (b) in regard to blow-out dangers in hot weather?
7.	Is there any continuing policy on the part of the government or its agencies to urge automobile tire manufacturers to use Polymer synthetic rubber rather than natural rubber?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	The laid down cost in Canadian ports of natural rubber produced in the far east is as follows:
February 26, 1947, Winter ports, Halifax, N.S., or Saint John, N.B., 22 533 cents per pound.
August 26, 1946, Summer port, Montreal, Quebec, 22'033 cents per pound.
February' 26, 1946, Winter ports, Halifax, N.S., or Saint John, N.B., 24-194 cents per pound.
2.	The cost to the Canadian tire manufacturer of synthetic rubber is as follows:
Date-GR-S and Butyl
February 26, 1947-18-5 cents per pound, plus equalized freight of \ cent per pound.
August 26, 1946-20-35 cents per pound plus freight (see note).
February- 26, 1946-20-35 cents per pound, plus freight (see note).
Note:
Freight on orders for 60,000 pounds or more for one delivery, 3/10 cent per pound.
Freight on orders for 20,000 pounds or more for one delivery 6/10 cent per pound.
Freight on orders for 2,000 pounds or more for one delivery, 1 cent per pound.
Freight on orders for less than 2,000 pounds, for one delivery, 2i cents per pound.
Freight on orders for less than 1 package for one delivery, 10 cents per pound.
3.	Since September 12, 1945, there has been no control over the quantity of natural rubber that may be purchased for the manufacture of automobile tires. The amount of natural rubber usedi per tire however, is restricted according to the size and type of tire manufactured.
4.	No.
5.	No. However, all manufacturers of automobile tires have signified their intention of continuing to use GR-S in quantity.
6.	No.
7.	No.


NAVAL ESTABLISHMENTS AT ST. HYACINTHE, QUEBEC
Mr. LENNARD:: 1.	Have any properties at St. Hyacinthe, province of Quebec, formerly occupied by naval establishments been disposed of, (a) sold; (b) leased?
2.	If so, to whom and at what figure?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	(a) Yes.
(b)	No.
2.	Two sales have been made:-
(i)	A property consisting of 9 buildings and 349,973 sq. ft. of land was sold to J. A. & M. Cote, Limited, boot and shoe manufacturers, for 835,000.
(ii)	39 buildings, erected on land leased from the province of Quebec, were sold to the province for $15,000. This sum was in consideration of the dominion government being released from all obligations arising out of the lease including the obligation to remove the buildings from the land and the cost of restoration of the land.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-EMPLOYEES' PENSIONS
Jean-François Pouliot: How many former employees of the Canadian National Railways are in receipt of a pension (a) of less than $45 per month; (b) of less than $75 per month, and (c) of less than $100 per month?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: It has not been the practice in the past to answer these questions; particularly when the information is available before the committee on railways and shipping. I have spoken to my hon. friend about it and he has been kind enough to say he will await the sittings of the committee.
Question dropped.
Questions


ALUMINUM PLANTS AT KINGSTON
Mr. COLDWELL:: 1.	Who is the owner of the aluminum fabricating and alloy tubing plants at Kingston, Ontario?
2.	What was the original cost of their erection?
3.	Did Canada make any contribution to this original cost?
4.	Are these plants now owned by Canada? If so, what amount was involved in securing these properties?
5.	To whom were these plants rented?
6.	What was the monthly or annual rental?
7.	What total amount was received in rent (a) between January 1, 1944 and January 1, 1945; (b) between January 1, 1945 and December 31, J946?
8.	Are these properties being used at the present time? If so, by whom and upon what terms?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	Aluminum Company of Canada Limited.
2.	The U.K. government paid $6,808,300 for the erection of these plants.
3.	No.
4.	Answered by 1.
5.	To the Aluminum Company of Canada
Limited.
6.	Year ended-
September 30,	1941	
$430,514September 30,	1942	
544,780September 30,	1943	
541,627September 30,	1944	
469,329September 30,	1945	
417,009
October 1 to
December 31, 1945.... 95,212
Note: Rental to March 31. 1943 was paid to U.K. government and after this to the dominion government.
7.	(a) None.
(b) $805,725.
8.	Yes. See answer to No. 1.


SHORTENING
[Stage Direction]
Mr. KNOWLES;
1.	What were the retail prices of shortening per pound, prior to the lifting of the price ceiling thereon, in Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton and Vancouver?
2.	What were the prices of shortening per pound three days after the lifting of the price ceiling thereon in each of the foregoing cities?
3.	Has the government received protests against the sudden increases in the prices of shortening?
4.	Are any steps being taken by the government (a) to restore the prices of shortening to their former level; (b) to prevent sudden increases in food stuffs and other necessities?
Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	The price ceiling on shortening has not been removed. It was increased on February

1st to reflect a reduction in the subsidy payable on oils and fats used in shortening production. Prices listed in column 1 consist in manufacturers' basic period ceiling price plus wholesale and retail percentage markups established by wartime prices and trade regulations. Prices listed in column 2 consist in manufacturers' basic period ceiling price plus 8fc per lb. increase of February 1, 1947, and same percentage markups as in column 1.
(1) Previous
Chain Stores Independent cts. per lb. cts. per lb.
Halifax 	. 19	21Montreal 	. 19	21Ottawa 	. 19	21Toronto 	. 19	21Winnipeg 	19Winnipeg Department	Stores 	. 20-21	Winnipeg	Large Chains.	. 18	Regina 	. 21	23Edmonton 	. 18	22Vancouver 	. 18	21(2) Present Chain Stores	Independentcts. per lb.	cts. per lb.Halifax 	. 30	32Montreal 	. 30	32Ottawa 	. 30	32Toronto 	. 30	32Winnipeg 	29Winnipeg Department	Stores 	. 32-33	. [DOT]Winnipeg	Large Chains.	. 28	Regina 	. 32	33Edmonton 	. 28	32Vancouver 	. 28	322.	Those indicated in column 2 above.3.	Yes.4.	(a) No.(b)	Yes.


IMMIGRATION FROM BRITAIN
Mr. KIDD:: How many British immigrants entered Canada from April ll, 1930 to March 1, 1945?


Mr. GLEN:: British immigration to Canada April 1, 1930, to March 31, 1945-102,348.
Note-Immigration statistics cover fiscal years, therefore, figures have been given to March 31, 1945, and not March 1, 1945, as asked for.

Questions


CONSTRUCTION OP HOUSES IN CANADA
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	How many houses were built in Canada during the first year after the war? What is the breakdown by provinces and municipalities?
2.	How many houses were built in Canada during 1945? What is the breakdown by provinces and municipalities?
3.	How many houses were built in Canada during ,1946? What is the breakdown by provinces and municipalities?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	No estimate has been prepared of the number of dwelling units completed in Canada during the first year after the war i.e. August 15, 1945 to August 15, 1946.
2.	A full answer to this part of the question cannot be given. The figure of 47,767 new dwelling units estimated to have been completed during 1945 has as its base an actual count of sample areas throughout Canada. These sample areas consist of some 623 municipalities out of a total of 3,845 or approximately 66 per cent of the total population of incorporated municipalities plus certain unorganized areas of the provinces and the northwest territories and Yukon. The actual count of these sample areas yielded a total of some 33,000 new dwelling units completed during 1945. A detailed breakdown by municipalities of the units completed in the sample areas during 1945 is to be found in table II of "Supplement to Housing Statistics 1945" and table I of "Housing Statistics for the six months ending June 30, 1946." Both documents are published by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics.
3.	A complete answer to this part of the question cannot be given either. A recent estimate by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics shows that 59,846 housing units were completed in the calendar year 1946. This estimate is based upon actual reports from 623 urban municipalities and a representative sample of rural municipalities and unorganized territories. Final results will be available at a later date.


HOUSINC-VETERANS LAND ACT-HANTS COUNTY, N.S.
Mr. STANFIELD:: 1.	How many veterans' houses were completed at Falmouth, Hants conuty. Nova Scotia?
2.	What was the total cost of these houses?
3.	How many houses have been sold?
4.	What was each sold for?	,


Mr. TUCKER:: 1.	Five.
2.	Final cost figures are not yet available.
3.	Three allocated.
4.	Definite sale prices not yet fixed.


EMERGENCY LANDING STRIPS
Mr. FULTON:: 1.	Has any decision been reached with regard to the maintenance of the emergency landing strips constructed during the war?
2.	If so, what is the decision?
3.	Is it contemplated that financial assistance will be given to municipalities desirous of maintaining these strips in the interest of public safety?


Mr. McILRAITH:: In so far as the Department of Transport is concerned:
1.	Yes.
2.	The department is arranging for availability of such emergency landing fields as are considered necessary in the interests of civil aviation.
3.	No.


TAX REFUNDS AND REMISSIONS
Mr. BARRETT:: 1.	During the calendar year 1946, what was the total amount of refunds and/or remissions of (a) customs duties; (b) excise duties; (c) excise taxes?
2.	To whom was each such refund or remission paid and what was the amount of each?
3.	What was the reason for each such refund
or remission?


Mr. McCANN:: 1.	Refunds: (a) Customs duties, $3,899,758.23; (b) Excise duties, $811,246.53; (c) Excise taxes, $10,244,272.79. Total $14,955,277.55.
Remissions:
(a)	Customs duties and taxes on imported goods, S4,146,528.64;	(b) Excise duties,
$10,669.33;	(c) Excise taxes, $81,652.36.
Total $4,238,850.33.
In addition a number of orders in council were passed covering remissions of duty and taxes of a general nature, the amounts of which are not available.
2 and 3. Customs refund claims are paid for various reasons, such as errors on customs invoices in values or quantities; goods lost in transit outside Canada; goods damaged in transit before entry at customs; goods wrongly classified on the customs entry and the incorrect duties and taxes paid; goods sold after importation under conditions rendering them subject to free entry or to a lower rate of duty or exempt from taxes; perfecting sight entries by filing of proper customs invoices; refunds on goods returned as not according to order; sundry appraisals and special rulings, and vary from small amounts such as 58c, 65c and 79c to large sums of money. Answers to these questions would involve the examination of approxmately 75,000 refund claims and it is estimated would require the services of ten or more employes for a period from two to three months.
Questions


WAR ASSETS-CANADA STRIP MILLS
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MEN'ARY:
How much did the government and/or war assets corporation receive from Noranda Mines Limited or its associates for the plant known as Canada Strip Mills, of Montreal East?
George James McIlraith: Canada Strip Mills was sold to Noranda Mines Limited for S1.372,-260.08.


LUNENBURG SEA PRODUCTS LIMITED-TRAWLERS AND DRAGGERS
Mr. GILLIS:: 1.	Were any trawlers and draggers now owned by the Lunenburg Sea Products Limited of Nova Scotia built with government assistance? If so, how many?
2.	What was the total cost of each craft and upon what terms was the assistance given by the government?
3.	What depreciation allowance was made on each craft?


Mr. BRIDGES:: 1.	Two draggers were built by the Lunenburg Sea Products with government assistance.
2.	As to the total cost of each vessel there is no information in the Department. (The
Building Numbers	Description
6	N.C.O.'s Quarters
17	Large Canteen
21D	Office and Workshop
23	Workshop
25	Dental Clinic
26	N.C.O.'s Quarters
31	Hostess House
30	W and B Maintenance Section
34	Depot Service Garage
21A	4 Bay Garage
21B	9 Bay Garage
21C	4 Bay Garage
18	Recreation Hall
22	Guard House and Post Office
4	Officers Quarters
3	Officers Quarters
16	Drill Hall
7	N.C.O.'s Mess
2	G.I.S. and Control Tower
15	Hospital
5	Officers Quarters
9	O.R.'s Quarters
14	Small Canteen
1	Headquarters
20	Civilian Quarters
total cost is unknown in view of the fact that a subsidy was paid on the tonnage basis and not on the basis of the cost of the vessel.) The amount of subsidy paid on each vessel was S165 per ton (gross tonnage). The subsidy was paid on the terms and conditions set out in the orders in council, P.C. 7580 of August 26, 1942, as amended by P.C. 3297 of April 22, 1943.
3.	The Department has no knowledge of what depreciation allowance was made on each craft as this is a matter between the owner as a tax-payer and the Department of National Revenue. The depreciation allowance, which the owner of the craft is entitled to claim, however, is set forth in the Orders in Council referred to in the answer to question No. 2.


WAR ASSETS-PORT ALBERT AIR STATION
Mr. ROBINSON (Bruce):: 1.	What buildings have been sold by the war assets corporation for the Port Albert air station?
2.	To whom were they sold?
3.	What was the selling price of each building?


George James McIlraith: Selling
Sold To	Price
Dept, of Education, Ont	$ 1,598
Dept, of	Education,	Ont	
1,466Dept, of	Education,	Ont	
528Dept, of	Education,	Ont	
674Dept, of	Education,	Ont	
264Dept, of	Education,	Ont	
1,637Dept, of	Education,	Ont	
404Dept, of Public Works, Ont	1,120Dept, of Public Works, Ont	315County of Huron	
234County of Huron	
505County of Huron	
234Town of Preston	
1,508Town of Wingham	
548Town of Mitchell	
2,090Town of Paisley	
2,143Town of Paisley	
3,200Village of Lucknow	
1,214Village of Lucan	
10,127
Alexander Marine and General
Hospital, Goderich	 3,871
Walkerton Branch Cdn. Legion...	1,980
Port Elgin Branch Cdn. Legion...	1,750
Port Elgin Branch Cdn. Legion...	750
Ailsa Craig Branch Cdn. Legion..	975
Mitchell United Church	 1.311
Note: The selling price was in consideration of the purchasers removing the buildings from the sites and restoring the land to its original condition.

Questions


WHEAT-QUANTITIES SUPPLIED AT 77f CENTS PER BUSHEL
Mr. FAIR:: From January 1. 1942, to December 31, 1946, how many bushels of -wheat were supplied by the Canadian wheat board at 77| cents per bushel to (a) millers; (b) distillers; (c) others?


Mr. MacKINNON:: Wheat sold at 77| cents per bushel-(a) to mills, 511,122.10 bushels,
(b)	No sales to distillers at this price, (c) To others, 61,602,20 bushels.


PUBLIC WORKS-PAYMENTS PRIOR TO COMPLETION OF WORK OR DELIVERY OF MATERIAL
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MEN ARY;
1.	Were payments made to firms or individuals from 1939 to date by the Department of Public Works prior to completion of work and/or delivery of material?
2.	If so, to what firms or individuals and what amounts were paid to each of them?
3.	Why were such amounts paid prior to completion of work and/or delivery of such material in each case?
Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: Under indentured form of contracts provision is made for progress payments on the value of the work done monthly and a remaining percentage paid within two months of the completion of the contract.
There is also provision that every allowance to which a contractor is fairly entitled shall be included in the progress payments.
In the un-indentured contracts (below $5,000) the same procedure is followed. In the case of hull and machinery repairs to ships, or the building of new small ships, the material to do such work is considered as coming from the contractor's stock, which may be replenished at some later date.


MOUNTED POLICE-SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES
[Stage Direction]
Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North);
1.	Does the R.C.M.P. prepare and keep dossiers on individuals suspected of subversive activities?
2.	Are such dossiers available for inspection (a) by individuals concerned; (b) by members of parliament?
3.	How many such dossiers are in existence?
Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	Reports on individuals suspected of subversive activities have at times been prepared in the ordinary course of police investigation.
2.	(a) No.
(b) No.
3.	This information is considered confidential and its disclosure would be against the public interest.'


MOUNTED POLICE-SECRET INTELLIGENCE BULLETIN
Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):: 1.	Is a secret intelligence bulletin or similar document prepared and used by the R.C.M.P.?
2.	If so, on what authority is this done?
3.	Who is the editor?
4.	What are his qualifications?
5.	How often does the bulletin appear?
6.	What is the cost per annum?
7.	How many copies are distributed (a) in Canada; (b) elsewhere?
8.	Is it available to members of parliament?
9.	Is it distributed outside government circles?
Mr. ILSLEY;
1.	Yes.
2.	The commissioner.
3.	The commissioner.
4.	Those of commissioner.
5.	Once a month.
6.	Not determined.
7.	(a) One to each division, (b) None.
8.	No.
9.	No.


MOUNTED POLICE-INTELLIGENCE BRANCH
Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):: 1.	Who is the head of the intelligence branch of the R.C.M.P.?
2.	What is his salary, and what are his special qualifications for this work?
3.	What are the responsibilities of the intelligence branch as officially defined?
4.	How many members of the R.C.M.P. are employed in this branch and what special training and qualifications are they required to possess?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	The R.C.M.P. has no branch designated "Intelligence Branch."
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Answered by No. 1.
4.	Answered by No. 1.


IMMIGRATION-SELECTION
Mr. STEWART (Winnipeg North):: 1.	Are any lists of names of people eligible for entry to Canada as immigrants compiled and selected in Canada and sent to Canadian immigration officers in other countries?
2.	If so. who makes the selection?
3.	What are the criteria?
4.	What names are on the list?


Mr. GLEN:: 1.	No. Cases come before the immigration service in Canada on individual applications filed by the interested person in Canada and are investigated. Upon approval of each case the appropriate immigration officer overseas is advised accordingly.
2,	3 and 4. Answered by No. 1.
Questions


WHEAT-SALES BY MONTH, 1945-47
Mr. BENTLEY:: What amount of wheat was sold by the wheat board, month by	month,	to	(a) Canadian
millers; (b) Canadian distillers; (c) all other domestic buyers, during the crop year 4945-46 and crop years 1946-47 to February 17, 1947?


James Angus MacKinnon: Wheat sold during crop year 1945-46, and crop year 1946-47 (to January 31, 1947):
bushels
(a)	To mills	 76,872,873-57
*(b) Distillers	 4,594,823-50
(c)	To others	 53,052,026-28
Monthly figures not available.
* Many distillers	are	large	feed dealers.
This figure represents total sales, including wheat used for feed purposes, in addition to that used for the distillation of commercial and beverage alcohol.
There have been no sales to distillers since early in December, 1946.


WAR ASSETS-MOTOR VEHICLES
Mr. MURPHY:: 1.	What trucks, tractors or motor vehicles of any kind were sold by any department of the government or war assets corporation to purchasers in Windsor, Ontario, between July 1, 1946 and December 31, 1946?
2.	What are the names of purchasers; what was purchased by each of them and at what price?
3.	Were such sales by tender?
4.	Was any tender accepted and later rejected and the goods sold to other person or persons in Windsor?
5.	If so, what are the particulars with respect to purchase price; goods- name of purchaser and name of purchaser whose tender was rejected?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	War Assets corporation sold 535 trucks, tractors and other motor vehicles to purchasers in Windsor, Ontario, between July 1, 1946, and December 31, 1946.
2.	The following is a list of purchasers, the number of vehicles purchased by each and the respective price at which they were purchased: Used Trucks, Tractors and Other Motor
Vehicles
Name of Purchaser-Description-Total cost to Purchaser
Webster Motor, Windsor, Ontario, 2-15 cwt. military type Ford trucks, $265.
Noble Duff, 334 Dougall Avenue, Windsor, Ontario, 1-15 cwt. military type Ford truck, $176; 1-15 cwt. military type Ford truck, $132; 4-15 cwt. Ford vans, $1,114.
J. T. Labadie Ltd., 1-G.M.C. 4x4 tractor, $1,249.40.

J. T. Labadie Ltd., 465 Goyeau Street, Windsor Ontario, 1-G.M.C. heavy utility personnel! carrier, $329.50; 1-G.M.C. heavy utility personnel carrier, $328.53; 1-G.M.C. 3-ton truck, $611.32;	1-G.M.C. tractor,
$475.31; 1-G.M.C. 3-ton truck, $833.63; 1- G.M.C. 15 cwt. truck, $365.50.
G. Tate Easton Ltd., 731 Goyeau Street, Windsor, Ontario, 1-G.M.C. heavy utility personnel carrier, $329.50; 2-G.M.C. heavy utility personnel carriers, $765.06; 1-G.M.C. 3-ton truck, $611.32; 1-G.M.C. 15 cwt. truck, $365.50; 1-G.M.C. tractor, $402.19.
Windsor Motorcycle Sales & Service, 2504 Howard Avenue, Remington Park, Windsor, Ontario, 7-Harley Davidson Motorcycles, $840;	13-Harley Davidson Motorcycles,

Abbey Gray Ltd., Windsor, Ontario, 2- Dodge 2-ton stake body trucks, $1,055.36.
New Trucks
Name of Purchaser-Description-Unit Price
Romeo Machine Shop, 492-Ford 3-ton army type 158" wheelbase, four-wheel drive, right-hand steering, $500.
These trucks had been prepared for shipment to Allied Armies Overseas during the war where they were to have been assembled in Ford Motor Company plants. They were packed in units of twelve in completely knocked-down state and consisted of chassis and cab only, no tires or bodies being included. They were offered for domestic sale only and not for export.
3.	The used trucks, tractors and other motor vehicles were disposed of to dealers, in accordance with established sales policy at prices set by War Assets corporation under Wartime Prices and Trade Board ceilings.
The new trucks were disposed of by inviting prospective purchasers, through the Press, to submit bids to the corporation. The high bids were accepted.
4.	No.
5.	Answered by 4.


LUMBER FOR SHIPMENT TO BRITAIN
Mr. REID:: 1.	Has the government information regarding any agreement recently arrived at between British interests or representatives and British Columbia lumber concerns regarding the purchase and sale of lumber for delivery in Great Britain?
2.	If so, what are the terms of any such lumber purchases or sales with particular reference to the prices to be paid and the quantities of lumber negotiated for?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	The government has no official information covering any agreement between the

Questions
British timber controller and British Columbia lumber concerns, either as to the amount of lumber ordered or the prices to be paid. However, it is understood a tentative agreement has been reached between the British timber control and individual exporters in the Vancouver forest district, which is subject to ratification by the British government.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


EXPORT CREDITS INSURANCE-SHIPS OR BARGES
Mr. WINTERS:: 1.	Of the $145,400,000 advanced to France under the authority of the Export Credits Insurance Act up to January 31, 1947, how much has been applied against the construction or purchase of ships or barges?
2.	How many wooden ships or barges have been contracted for under these credits and where have the contracts been placed?
3.	Were tenders invited in each instance before contracts were placed?


Mr. MacKINNON:: 1.	$24,354,677.78.
2.	None from new production.
3.	Yes, tenders were invited by the Mission de la Marine Marchande Francaise au Canada.


WHEAT TAKEN OVER BY WHEAT BOARD ON SEPTEMBER 27, 1943
Mr. WRIGHT:: 1.	What was the total amount of wheat taken over by the wheat board for the dominion government on September 27, 1943?
2.	What amount of such wheat was sold each day to what countries, and what companies, organizations or individuals was it sold?
3.	What was the date and amount, in bushels, of each sale made?
4.	What was the price obtained in each case?
5.	What was the Chicago market price on the corresponding day of each sale?


James Angus MacKinnon: I believe the hon. member has consented to allowing this question to be dropped on the understanding that he will be given an opportunity to ask the question and obtain the information when the report of the Canadian wheat board is before the committee on agriculture.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Dropped.


MILLING DRAWBACK ON LOCAL GROWN WHEAT
Mr. FULTON:: Will the milling drawback on local grown wheat now be paid to flour mills milling such wheat in deficit feed grain areas in order to increase the amount of wheat used for human consumption ?


James Angus MacKinnon: There is no change in the wheat eligible for the drawback involved in the recent increase in the domestic price. As far as local grown wheat is concerned, the
drawback is paid only to mills in the designated area of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta and those parts of British Columbia known as the Peace River district and the Creston-Wynndel area. Local grown wheat used by mills outside the designated area is not eligible for the drawback.


WAR ASSETS-HANGARS
Mr. WHITE (Hastings-Peterborough):: 1.	How many air force hangars have been disposed of in the province of Ontario, since January 1, 1945 (a) to municipalities; (b) to other purchasers, through war assets corporation?
2.	What amount has been realized on the sale of such hangars?


George James McIlraith: 1 and 2.
One hangar located at Cayuga was sold to the province of Ontario, together with land and other buildings, services and fencing for $12,000. The province also undertook at its own expense three very intricate land surveys, the cost of which was taken into consideration by the corporation.
One hangar located at Toronto Downsview was sold to DeHavilland Aircraft under special agreement as sale also included two other buildings at an overall price of $150,000. These buildings were sold for use on their original site.
One hangar located at Brantford was sold to Clare Brothers & Company Limited, Preston, Ontario, for $7,500. In this particular case, restoration costs of $1,000 had to be taken into consideration as the hangar was sold for removal from its present site.
Two hangars located at St. Thomas, Ontario, were sold to the County of Elgin together with two other buildings for $3,000. This sales price is low due to the heavy restoration costs involved as the Crown was obligated to remove concrete flooring and aprons and replace with suitable top soil. These hangars were sold for removal from their present locations.


WARTIME PRICES AND TRADE BOARD-MONCTON
Mr. ROBINSON (Bruce):: 1.	How many persons are employed by the wartime prices and trade board at Moncton, New Brunswick?
2.	How many of the above are (a) veterans of world war I or world war II; (b) non-veterans; (c) persons who are in receipt of a pension other than pensions for service in the Canadian armed forces?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	Ten.
2.	(a) Three; (b) seven; (c) none to our knowledge.
Questions


WARTIME PRICES AND TRADE BOARD-PROSECUTIONS, HASTINGS COUNTY, ONTARIO
Mr. WHITE (Hastings-Peterborough):: 1.	How many prosecutions by the wartime prices and trade board were instituted in the county of Hastings in each of the years 1945 and 1946?
2.	What is the total amount of fines levied in such prosecutions?
3.	What is the total amount paid to legal firms and solicitors in connection with such prosecutions (a) in legal fees; (b) in travelling and other expenses?
4.	What is the total amount paid to investigators in connection with such cases (a) in salaries; (bl travelling and other expenses?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	Instituted in 1945, 40; 1946, 33.
2.	Total fines levied in 1945, $355; 1946, $995.
In each instance, part of these totals might be fines upon charges which have been instituted in the calendar year preceding their levy.
3.	The Department of Justice taxes the accounts submitted by its agents and forwards to the wartime prices and trade board a certificate showing the amount of such taxation but not distinguishing the portion thereof which might be assignable to fees or to disbursements.
Solicitors' accounts were taxed at a total of: $1,231.98 in 1945; $679.91 in 1946.
Again, these payments may relate in part to prosecutions instituted in the calender year preceding the taxation.
4.	The investigators of the wartime prices and trade board stationed in the county of Hastings are employed on a full time basis and are constantly engaged in making surveys and investigations of price infractions. Out of a large number of investigations made only a few cases ever reach the courts. It is impossible therefore to apportion that part of their salaries and travelling expenses which apply to particular cases. However, the following total amounts have been paid to investigators in the county of Hastings:
(a)	Salaries, $8,496.46 in 1945; $10,948.80 in 1946.
(b)	Travelling expenses, $1,799 42 in 1945; $4,010.85 in 1946.


BRITISH PREFERENTIAL TARIFF
Mr. THATCHER:: 1.	What steps have been taken by the government to re-impose pre-war British preferential tariff rates?
2.	Were any conversations or negotiations carried on with the British government in this regard before the decision was reached?

3.	Did the British government, officially or unofficially ask that the wartime rates be continued?
4.	Has the British government announced similar tariff increases on any Canadian goods?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	In 1940, many British preferential rates were temporarily eliminated, or substantially reduced below the rates in effect in 1939, as a wartime measure under the War Exchange Conservation Act. As provided under this Act, these reductions are to expire on the date of the issue of a proclamation under the War Measures Act declaring that a state of war no longer exists or on such earlier date as may be fixed in a proclamation of the Governor in Council. In view of the impending tariff negotiations and the obligation to inform other governments of the base date from which Canada will negotiate, an order in council P.C. 5356 dated December 30, 1946, has been passed providing for the issue of a proclamation on June 30, 1947, terminating the War Exchange Conservation Act, 1940.
2.	No.
3.	No.
4.	No. The United Kingdom had not made similar reductions during the war period.


WARTIME HOUSING-APPRAISAL FOB SALE TO TENANTS
Mr. STEPHENSON:: 1.	How is the appraisal value of wartime housing houses arrived at for the purpose of sale thereof to tenants?
2.	What relationship does such appraisal value bear to actual cost?
3.	What instructions are issued by the government or Wartime Housing Ltd., or Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to those charged with appraising the value of such houses ?
4.	How are such persons appointed, and to whom are they responsible?
5.	What are the names of such persons; where are they located, and what territory is assigned to each?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	The appraisal value is based on the following factors, at the present time:
(a)	General state of maintenance and repair, with particular attention paid to condition of joists and supporting posts.
(b)	General character of the district and the trend of development.
(c)	Favourable or unfavourable influences which may affect the future value. Value and type of houses in the immediate neighbourhood.
(d)	Economic trend.

Questions
(e)	Assessed value and rental range of other houses in tihe immediate neighbourhood.
(f)	Landscaping of the lot.
(g)	Utilities, services, community planning and zoning regulations in the area.
2.	Appraisal value varies considerably with the original cost not only across the country but also in particular projects. Sufficient houses have not been sold to establish a reliable relationship.
3.	Answered by No. 1.
4.	Persons carrying out the appraisal are employees of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation.
5.	The work of appraising houses for sale to tenants has not as yet progressed sufficiently to enable this part of the question to be answered.


SEA CADET CORPS
Mr. LENNARD:: 1.	Has any limitation been set on the complement of sea cadet corps?
2.	Have any officers of sea cadet corps been asked to resign, or will they be asked to resign to reduce complements?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: The information required by the above questions is contained in a return to an order of the House of Commons on this subject by Mr. Pearkes.


SOLDIER SETTLERS-BRITISH COLUMBIA
Mr. IRVINE:: 1.	Has the government taken steps to classify and list such lands in British Columbia as the department concerned is prepared to take over and administer for soldier settlers?
2.	If so, what area or areas have been so classified and are they now open for settlement?


Mr. TUCKER:: 1.	Information as to lands made available by the province for Veterans' Land Act settlement may be obtained from provincial land offices. The suitability of individual parcels of land is determined when application for assistance in becoming established thereon is made by qualified veterans.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


DARTMOUTH BRIDGE
Mr. MERRITT:: 1.	Have any surveys been undertaken recently into the cost of erecting the Dartmouth bridge?
2.	If so, what conclusions were reached in such surveys?


Lionel Chevrier: In so far as the Department of Transport is concerned:
1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


SUGAR QUOTAS
Mr. HAMEL:: 1.	By provinces, what is the number of new sugar quotas granted since June 1, 1945?
2.	Of the persons granted such quotas, how many are (a) veterans; (b) veterans entitled to a particular priority; (c) non-veterans?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1. By provinces, the number of new sugar quotas granted since June 1, 1945, is as
follows:
Quebec	 61
Ontario	 167
Nova Scotia	 68
New Brunswick	 27
Prince Edward Island	 7
Manitoba	 18
British Columbia	  83
Alberta	 33
Saskatchewan	 27
Total	 474
2.	Sugar quotas were granted as follows: (Bakers)
(a)	Veterans not entitled to a priority:
Quebec	 15
Ontario	 18
Nova Scotia	 5
New Brunswick	
Prince Edward Island	
Manitoba	 4
British Columbia	 16
Alberta	 3
Saskatchewan	 3
Total	 64
(b)	Veterans entitled to a priority:
Quebec	 35
Ontario	 148
Nova Scotia	 53
New Brunswick	 27
Prince Edward Island	 7
Manitoba	 14
British Columbia	 65
Alberta	 29
Saskatchewan	 23
Total	 401
(c)	Non-Veterans:
Quebec	 4
Ontario	 1
Nova Scotia	
New Brunswick	
Prince Edward Island
Manitoba	
British Columbia	 2
Alberta	 1
Saskatchewan	 1
Total	 9
Questions


INCOME TAX-NEW BRUNSWICK FARMERS
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	What was the amount of income tax paid by farmers in the province of New Brunswick for each year including 1940 to date?
2.	What was the amount of total income tax paid outside of towns and cities in New Brunswick for each year including 1940 to date?


Mr. McCANN:: 1.	For 1940 taxation year information not compiled; 1941-$6,601; 1942-$11,139. For years subsequent to 1942 the information is still being assembled.
2.	No record has been maintained in the past of taxes payable by residents of towns and cities as distinct from those outside towns and cities except that farmers are recorded as a separate class. Beginning with the year 1946 a separate record is being maintained of taxes payable by those living in communities of 2,500 or less.



AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS CO-OPERATIVE MARKETING ACT

Mr. STOKES:: 1.	How many individual marketing agreements have been made each year by the Minister of Agriculture under the provisions of the Agricultural Products Co-operative Marketing Act of 1939?
2.	What were the names of the cooperative associations with which such agreements were made in each year?
3.	What was the cost to the government of fulfilling each separate agreement?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Individual marketing agreements have
been made each year as follows:	1939, 11;
1940, 7; 1941, 6; 1942, 6; 1943, 1; 1944, 1; 1945, 3; 1946, 2; 1947 to date, 3.
2.	The names of the co-operative associations and processors with which such agreements were made in each year are as follows:
1939	Agreements
Saskatchewan Honey Producers' Co-operative Association, Fort Qu'Appelle.
Manitoba Co-operative Honey Producers' Limited, Winnipeg.
Saskatchewan Alfalfa Growers' Co-operative Marketing Association, Prince Albert.
The Ontario Onion Growers' Co-operative Limited, Leamington, Ontario.
Saskatchewan Registered Seed Growers' Limited, Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan.
The Canadian National Silver Fox Breeders' Association.
The Dominion Silver Fox Furs Limited, Summerside, P.E.I.
Charlottetown Fur Sales Limited, Charlottetown, P.E.I.
Prince Edward Island Fur Pool Limited, Summerside, P.E.I.
[Mr. Mayhew.l
L'Association Des Eleveurs de Renards de la Province de Quebec.
Dominion Fur Auction Sales Limited, Winnipeg, Manitoba
Soudack Fur Auction Sales Limited, Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Edmonton Fur Auction Sales Limited, Edmonton, Alberta.
Little Bros. Fur Sales Agency Limited, Vancouver, B.C.
Maritime Fur Pool Limited, Moncton, N.B.
1940	Agreements
Saskatchewan Forage Crop Growers' Cooperative Marketing Association.
Saskatchewan Honey Producers' Co-operative Limited.
Alberta Honey Producers' Association.
Victor Fox Foods (Western) Limited, Calgary', Alta.
Western Canada Fur Pool, Winnipeg, Man.
Canadian National Silver Fox Breeders' Association.
Syndicat Co-operative des Producteurs de Fourrures.
1941	Agreements
Saskatchewan Forage Crop Growers' Cooperative Marketing Association.
Alberta Honey Producers' Co-operative Association.
Saskatchewan Honey Producers' Co-operative Marketing Association.
Manitoba Co-operative Honey Producers' Limited.
Pelee Island Co-operative Association.
Western Canada Fur Pool.
1942	Agreements
The Saskatchewan Forage Crop Growers' Co-operative Marketing Association.
Manitoba Co-operative Honey Producers' Limited.
Western Canada Fur Pool.
Ontario Fur Farmers Co-operative.
The British Columbia Mink Breeders Association.
The Quebec Fur Breeders' Co-operative.
1943	Agreement
The Saskatchewan Forage Crop Growers' Co-operative Marketing Association.
1944	Agreement
The Saskatchewan Forage Crop Growers' Co-operative Marketing Association.
-	1945 Agreements
Two agreements with The Saskatchewan Forage Crop Growers' Co-operative Marketing Association.
Le Syndicat des Producteurs de Patates de Shipshaw.

Questions
1946 Agreements
The Saskatchewan Forage Crop Growers' Co-operative Marketing Association.
Le Syndicat des Prodcteurs de Patates de Shipshaw.
1947 Agreements to date
Canadian National Silver Fox Breeders' Association.
Prince Edward Island Fur Pool Limited.
The Hudson's Bay Company.
3.	To date there has been no cost to the government under any agreement.



IMMIGRATION EXAMINATION CENTRES

Mr. TIMMINS:: 1.	How many immigration examination centres has Canada in the British Isles and Europe, and where are they located?
2.	Has Canada resident doctors at each station and if so, how many?
3.	In what immigration centres have the doctors X-ray equipment for examination of immigrants?


Mr. GLEN:: 1.	Immigration staffs are located in London, England; The Hague, Holland; Brussels, Belgium; and Paris, France. Provision has been made also for immigration examination at the following Canadian missions-Oslo, Norway; Copenhagen, Denmark; Athens, Greece; Lisbon, Portugal.
2.	Canadian medical officers are attached to immigration staffs as follows: 4 medical officers in London, 1 in The Hague, 1 in Brussels and 1 in Paris.
3.	None.



SOIL PIPE

Mr. McCULLOUGH (Assiniboia):: What quantities of soil pipe were produced in Canada for each of the years 1939 to 1944 inclusive; what are the names of the companies engaged in this production, and how much did each company produce in each year, 1939 to 1946 inclusive?


Mr. McCANN:: Production of soil pipe and soil pipe fittings in Canada
Year	Tons
1939 		... 16,462
1940 		... 23,695
1941 		... 26,373
1942 		... 20,943
1943 		... 14,226
1944 		... 15,255
Manufacturers of Soil Pipe	and Soil Pipe
Fittings, 1946	
Anthes Foundry Limited,	Saskatchewan
Ave., Winnipeg, Man.	
Associated Foundry Limited,	4080 Nanaimo
St., Vancouver, B.C.	
Bibby Foundry, Galt, Ont.
Capt Foundry Ltd., Cap de la Madeleine, Que.
Imperial Iron Corporation Ltd., St. Catharines, Ont.
La Fonderie Paquette Enrg., Laprairie, Que.
Lincoln Foundry Co., St. Catharines, Ont.
Magog Foundry Limited, Magog, Que.
Melanson's Foundry, 2340 Ville Marie St., Montreal, Que.
McDonnell Metal Manufacturing Co. Ltd., 75 West Third Ave., Vancouver, B.C.
Terreau & Racine Ltd., 196-225 St. Paul 8t, Quebec, Que.
Toronto Hardware Mfg. Co. Ltd., 450 Duf-ferin St., Toronto, Ont.
Viau, M. I. & Fils Ltee, St. Jerome, Que.
Warden, King Limited, 2104 Bennett Ave., Montreal, Que.
Western Foundry, 1416 Franklin St., Vancouver,
Production figures cannot be given for each company as the Statistics Act forbids the release of information which discloses the operations of an individual concern.



GOLD-SHIPMENTS TO MEXICO

Mr. COCKERAM:: ,1. Have any shipments of Canadian gold been made to Mexico since July 1, 1946?
2.	If so, what was the total amount of such shipments, and what price was received for the gold sold?
3.	What were the gold holdings for Canadian account of the Bank of Canada or any other government agency as at February 1, 1947?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	Any shipments of gold to Mexico since July 1, 1946, have been made from gold placed in safekeeping prior to that date for account of foreign banking institutions.
2.	The first part of this question cannot be answered as it is not the policy of the government to disclose such detailed information as may be available to it regarding the business activities of foreign banking institutions. (No sales of gold have been made by the government or any agency of the government or the Bank of Canada except on the basis of $35 United States per fine ounce at New York.)
3.	Information regarding gold holdings at the end of 1946 will be made available in the report of the foreign exchange control board covering the year 1946 which, under the provisions of section 39 of the Foreign Exchange Control Act, will be submitted to the Minister of Finance before May 30 and tabled within 14 days of receipt.
Questions



ASBESTOS

Mr. McCULLOUGH (Assiniboia):: 1.	How much asbestos was produced in Canada in each of the years 1939 to 1946 inclusive?
2.	What quantity of asbestos was exported
during each of these years?	[DOT]
3.	What percentage was the Canadian production in each of the above years in relation to the world production of asbestos?
4.	How many companies produced asbestos in each of the years 1939 to 1946 inclusive, and what are the names in each ease?


Mr. MacKINNON:: 1. Production of Asbestos in Canada, 1939-1946
Year	Tons
1939		 364,472
1940		 346,805
1941		 477,846
1942	  439,459
1943		 476,196
1944		 419,265
1945		 466,897
1946	(Preliminary)	 549,497
2. Exports of Asbestos, 1939-46
Milled
Crude Fibres Year	Tons	Tons
1939		 186,238
1940	
2,082	179,5641941	
2,757	217,4981942	
2,796	198,4521943	
1,990	210,8371944	
1,541	181,6681945	
863	209,7651946	(Preliminary) ________ 639	215,233
Waste, Refuse or Shorts
1939		 159,780
1940		 154,929
1941		 233,654
1942		 226,209
1943		 230,172
1944		 212,728
1945		   229,929
1946	(Preliminary)	 304,312
3.	Percentage of Canada's output to world production of asbestos, 1939-1946
1 ear	Tons
1939		 65
1940		 61
1941		 68
1942		 66
1943		 69
1944		 68
1945	) Data not
1946	jyet available
Note-Above figures are approximate as
statistics are incomplete for war years, especially w'ith respect to production in the U.S.S.R.

4.	Number of Companies producing asbestos in Canada, 1939-1946
1940
1942
1944
1945	 6
1946	 7
Producers of Crude Asbestos in Canada 1939
Asbestos Corporation Limited, Thetford Mines, Que.
Bell Asbestos Mines Ltd., Thetford Mines, Que.
Canadian Johns Manville Co. Ltd., Asbestos, Que.
Johnsons Company, Thetford Mines, Que-
Quebec Asbestos Corporation Ltd., East Broughton Station, Que.
As above, with addition: Nicolet Asbestos Mines Ltd. Norbestos, Que.
As for 1940-1945 with addition of Flintkote Mines, Ltd., Thedford Mines, Que.



CAPE TORMENTINE, N.B., DOCK FACILITIES

Mr. EMMERSON:: What is the estimated cost of the development of the dock and the docking facilities at Cape Tormentine, Westmorland county, to accommodate the Prince Edward Island ferry service?


Lionel Chevrier: 



$3,606,000. INTERIM OR ACTIVE ARMY

Mr. COCKERAM:: 1.	How many officers, n.c.o's and men have been taken on the strength of the interim or active army since January 30, 1946?
2.	How many officers, n.c.o's and men have been discharged from the interim or active force since January 30, 1946?
3.	What are the reasons for discharge?
4.	Have any army personnel been allowed to purchase their release?
5.	If so, how many and at what price?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	Interim force-entered since January 30, 1946: 2,099 officers, 8,276 other ranks.
Active force-entered since October 1, 1946. Date of establishment of active army: 2,136 officers, 9,203 other ranks.
2.	Discharged since January 30, 1946:
Interim force: 34 officers, 2,946 other ranks.
Canadian army active force, 3 officers, 16
other ranks.
tQ (D (O (O (O CO

Questions
Interim force
Other
3.	Officers Ranks
At own- request	32	2,905Services	no	longer
required (KR (Can)
372 (xvi))	 3
Misconduct		2
Convicted by civil
power		2
Medically unfit	
2	34Not likely to become an efficient soldier..	..	..Total	
34	2,946
Canadian Army (A.F.)
Other
Officers Ranks
At own request	
3	..Services	no	longer
required (KR (Can)
372 (xvi))	'	9Misconduct	
[DOT] ..	..
Convicted by civil
power		2
Medically unfit		4
Not likely to become an efficient soldier...	..	1Total	
3	164.	None.5.	Answered by No. 4.



INTERIM OR ACTIVE NAVAL SERVICE

[Stage Direction]
3.	Reasons for Discharge.
[Stage Direction]
Officers
Resigned	 5
Medically Unfit	 4
To promote efficiency or	economy	 1
Retired	 20
Dead (Natural causes)	 1
Killed in action (flying	accident)	 1
Lost at sea	 1
Services completed	 3
Demobilized	 4
Men
Services no longer required	 4
Unsuitable	 26
Under age	 7
Over age	 1
To pension	 17
Dismissed	 5
Medically unfit	 70
Dead (Natural causes)	 2
Promoted to commissioned rank	 2
Demobilized	 120
Absentee not claimed	 1
Services completed	 79
Interim
Officers
Resigned	 2
Medically unfit	 4
Died (Natural causes)	 1
Discharged on transfer to Permanent force 30
Services completed	 1
Demobilized	 63
Mr. COCKERAM:: 1.	How many officers, n.e.o's and men have been taken on the strength of the interim or active Royal Canadian Navy since January 30, 1946?
2.	How many officers, n.c.o's and men have been discharged from the interim or active force since January 30, 1946?
3.	What are the reasons for discharge?
4.	Have any Royal Canadian Navy personnel been allowed to purchase their release?
5.	If so, how many and at what price?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	Entered since 30 January, 1946.
R.C.N.	Interim
Officers	
149	438Men	
2605	11652.	Discharged since 30 January, 1946.R.C.N.	InterimOfficers	
40	101Men	
334	489Unsuitable	
7Under age	
1To pension	
1Dismissed	
1Medically unfit	
11Compassionate grounds	
5
Discharged on transfer to Permanent force 20
Demobilized	435
Services completed	 8
4.	None.
5.	Answered by No. 4.



MONTREAL HARBOUR-OPENING BY ICE BREAKERS

Mr. HAZEN:: ^ 1. On what date this year did the ice-breaker N. B. McLean and the ice-breaker Ernest Lapointe commence work in the St. Lawrence river to open up the harbour of Montreal?
Questions

2.	On whose authority was the work commenced?
3.	On what date last year was the work commenced by each of these vessels; when was it completed and how much did it cost?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	The ice breakers N. B. McLean and Ernest Lapointe were detailed to winter service on the St. Lawrence river on December 1, 1946.
This includes convoying of vessels, keeping Quebec harbour open andi keeping the channel below Three Rivers clear of ice jams. Actual cutting of channel to Montreal commenced on February 10, 1947, at a point 80 miles below Montreal.
2.	Departmental authority.
3.	(a) December 1, 1945, service at Quebec and channel to Three Rivers,' (b) February 7, 1946, commenced cutting channel above Three Rivers; work completed March 31; (c) 8108,292.13, cost of December 1, 1945, to March 31, 1946.



FARM MACHINERY AND PARTS-PRICE INCREASES

Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	What increases in the prices of (a) farm machinery; (b) farm machinery repair parts; (c) automobile spare parts and accessories, were allowed by the wartime prices and trade board during 1946?
2.	What publicity was given to the increases allowed in auto parts and accessories during 1946?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 

EMERGENCY AIR FIELDS, SASKATCHEWAN

[Stage Direction]
Mr. TOWNLEY-SMITH:
1.	What is the location of each emergency air field in Saskatchewan?
2.	Has an emergency air field been purchased at or near Lachburn, Saskatchewan?
3.	If so (a) from whom; (b) what is its location; (c) at what price?
Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	Broadview, Dafoe, Davidson, Moosomin, Swift Current, Yorkton.
2.	No.
3.	Answered by No. 2.



RECEIVER GENERAL OF CANADA

[Stage Direction]
Mr. HANSELL;
1.	Who is the receiver general of Canada?
2.	In what city does he reside?
3.	What is his salary?
4.	How long has he been employed in this
position?
5.	Is he considered a civil servant?
Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	Hon. D. C. Abbott,
2.	Ottawa.
3.	$10,000 per annum as Minister of Finance and Receiver General of Canada.
4.	December 10. 1946.
5.	No.
N.B.-For some years after confederation the office of Receiver General was a separate office distinct from that of the Minister of Finance but this separate office was abolished in 1879. Section 1 of chap. 7 of the statutes of Canada, 42 Victoria, reads as follows:
"The following provisions of this act shall come into and be in force on and after a day to be fixed by proclamation under an order of the governor in council.
The department of the Receiver General shall no longer be a separate department of the Civil Service of Canada; and the office of Receiver General shall no longer be held by a separate member of the govrnment of Canada, but the Minister of Finance shall be also ex-officio Receiver General, and shall as such, in addition to those of the Minister of Finance, have the powers and be charged with

Questions
the duties which the Receiver General now has or is charged with; and he shall have and be charged with such other duties generally as may be assigned to him from time to time by the governor in council; his name of office shall be "Minister of Finance and Receiver General;" and the expression "Minister of Finance" or "Receiver General" in the act passed in the forty-first year of Her Majesty's reign, and intituled "An Act to provide for the better auditing of the public accounts," or in any other act or document, shall hereafter be construed and have effect as meaning the "Minister of Finance and Receiver General."



FORT MCMURRAY BITUMIN DEPOSITS

Mr. DECHENE:: Are the large deposits of bitumin, recently discovered in the Fort MeMurray area, as reported by Geologist G. S. Hume, located on crown lands in the rights of the province of Alberta, or on lands already alienated to private interests ?
Mr.GLEN: The deposits of bitumen recently explored in the Fort MeMurray area are located on crown land held in the right of the province of Alberta, subject to certain exploratory rights granted to Abasand Oils Limited.



ABASAND OILS LIMITED

Mr. DECHENE:: 1.	Have the holdings of bituminous sands, held by the Abasand Oils Limited at the time the government took control, been returned to the company for operation?
2.	If so, have negatiations been completed between the government and the company?
3.	Is the government of Canada retaining an interest in any of this property?
4.	Has an agreement been made?
5.	If so, what are its terms, and does it provide for immediate resumption of operations?


Mr. GLEN:: 1.	Yes, subject to the conditions of the agreement referred to in 5 hereunder.
2.	Yes.
3.	Yes.
4.	Yes.
5.	The agreement with Abasand Oils Limited, dated November 1, 1946, provides that the company shall pay the dominion government on or before November 1, 1948, the sum of $139,861.63 for certain mining equipment and materials. A further sum of $1,913,427.48 is to be paid for the dominion government's interest in buildings, fixed machinery and equipment, as well as bitu-mious sand rights, by annual payments equal
to five cents per barrel for each barrel of bitumen produced or contained in bituminous sands sold or otherwise disposed of, the first payment to be due at the end of the first year from the date when production commences. The agreement does not provide for immediate resumption of operations but it is understood that the company proposes to continue exploration and development.



ALBERTA MUSKRAT PROJECT

Mr. DECHENE:: 1.	Has the dominion government negotiated with the provincial authorities in connection with the proposed large muskrat raising project in the delta of the Athabasca river near Fort Chipewyan, Alberta?
2.	If so, with what result?
3.	What action has been or is being taken to proceed with this project?


Mr. GLEN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	It was decided after preliminary negotiation that further information as to the potential production and cost of development was necessary.
3.	The area in question, comprising some
200,000	acres, is composed partially of Indian reserve lands and partially of provincially owned lands. The Indian reserve lands have been surveyed and an estimate of development cost submitted. Very recently a fully qualified engineer was selected to conduct a similar investigation on the provincial lands portion of the proposed development. When the results of this investigation are available they will be used as a basis for further negotiations with the province.



IRRIGATION PROJECTS

Mr. THATCHER:: 1.	Since 1935, how many acres of land in Canada, have actually been put under irrigation?
2.	How many additional acres will be irrigated by projects where construction has already been commenced?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	155,200 acres.
2.	94,000 acres.



HEALTH AND WELFARE-PHYSICAL FITNESS BRANCH

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Who composed the national physical fitness department of the government?
2.	Who are the chief officers in each province?
3.	What is each one's salary and travelling expenses since the organization was founded?
Questions

4.	Is this organization seeking Olympic games for Canada in 1952, as announced in the press?
5.	How many of its officers and members are returned soldiers?
6.	Who is the head of it; is he a returned soldier, and in what theatre of war did he serve?
7.	What is the total expenditures on this work for the last year of record?
Mr. MARTIN;
1.	As at February 27 the personnel of the Fhysical Fitness Division is as follows:
Dr. Doris Plewes, Ed. D., Assistant Director of Physical Fitness; S. B. Carey, Technical Assistant; Miss Winnifred Roberts, Stenographer; Miss Jean Fraser, Clerk.
2.	None.
3.	Dr. Doris Plewes-
Salary per annum, $3,600; travelling expenses since Organization of Division, $553.57. Mr. S. B. Carey-
Salary per annum, $3,600; travelling expenses since Organization of Division, $288.15. Miss Winnifred Roberts-
Salary per	annum,	$1,704;	travelling	expenses since Organization of Division, nil. Miss Jean Fraser-Salary per	annum,	$1,460;	travelling	expenses since Organization of Division, nil.4.	The National Physical Fitness divisionhas taken no action along the lines suggested but the National Council on Physical Fitness, at its meeting held in November 1945, recommended that the winter games of the 1948 Olympics be	held in	Canada.	However,	itwas decided	to hold	the winter games	at
St. Moritz, Switzerland, in view of the fact that European groups would probably find it difficult to meet the costs of transportation to and from Canada.
5.	One.
6.	The position of director has been vacant since October 4, 1946.
7.	For the fiscal year ended March 31,
1946:	Administration, $31,524.45; Payments
to provinces, $49,555.12; Total, 881,079.57.



PURCHASE OF PROPERTY IN TORONTO

Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	Did the government, or any department of the government, purchase a property at 204 St. George street, Toronto?
2.	If so, what was the purchase price?
3.	Is it occupied at present, and if so for what purpose is it used?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	Yes. Purchased by the Department of National Defence in 1943.
2.	$10,000.
3.	This building is allocated to the reserve force as armoury accommodation and the

following units are now in occupation: 2 Fd. Amb., R.C.A.M.C.; 7 Fd. Amb., R.C.A.M.C.; 16 F.D.S., R.C.A.M.C.; 47 C.C.S., R.C.A.M.C.



HOUSING-VETERANS LAND ACT-BOUCHERVII.LE, QUEBEC.

Mr. MURPHY:: 1.	Did the government call for tenders for construction of nine homes at Boucherville, Quebec, under the Veterans' Land Act?
2.	If so, what are the names of those who submitted tenders and amount of each tender?
3.	Was the person or firm who finally obtained a contract to construct homes in this area the same person or firm who tendered for the construction of nine homes in this area?
4.	What was his unit cost according to tender?
5.	What is the present cost of same unit under the contract entered into?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Tenders were received from the following:
O. Boisvert, Shawinigan Falls ____$45,884	00
Leclair-Dupuis, Montreal	
52,257	14J. L. Guay, Montreal	
53,476	00Douglas Bremner, Montreal	
54,707	00Deakin & Stewart, Montreal	
61,010	00R. & B. A. Ryan, Montreal	
63,180	00Archambault, Montreal	
70,200	003.	Yes, one of them, namely, O. Boisvert.4.	Unit price according to tender submitted
by O. Boisvert:
Design	Quotation
Humphrys No.	1A	$5,524	00Humphrys No.	2A	
4,884	00Humphrys 3A	
4,711	00Humphrys 4A	
4,850	00Savard No. A1	
4.943	00Savard No. B1	
5,591	00Savard No. Cl	
5,981	00Van Norman IB	
4,442 00Van Norman 3B	
4,958 005.	Contract was let for construction of seventeen houses. Payments totalling $95,757.96 have been made pursuant to that contract. Additional claims have been submitted by contractor who has served a peti-tition of right on the Attorney General of Canada to enforce payment. Unit cost not yet determined.



INCOME TAX DEDUCTIONS-VANCOUVER CONSTRUCTION FIRMS

Mr. MacINNIS:: 1.	Have certain construction firms in Vancouver, British Columbia, made income tax deductions from employees' wages which they have failed to account for to the Department of National Revenue?
2.	If so, what are the names of such firms?
3.	Have prosecutions or proceedings to collect been taken against these firms?

Questions


Mr. McCANN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	This information is regarded as privilege; particular reference is made to section 81 of the Income War Tax Act.
3.	Yes.	.



HOUSING-MOVING OF BUILDING MATERIAL UNDER PRIORITIES

Mr. TIMMINS:: How much building material was moved under priorities in 1946, in respect to the following
froups: Wartime Housing Limited, Integrated lousing. Veterans' Land Act and Housing Enterprises Limited, of: lumber, nails, building hardware, roofiing, soil pipe, tile, plumbing material, plumbing fixtures, heating material, heating fixtures, lath, bricks, cement, concrete blocks, wallboard, gypsum products, hardwood flooring?


George James McIlraith: The information desired is not in the possession of the dominion government. Priorities for building materials are issued for government sponsored projects designed to provide primarily homes for veterans and their families. Priorities for building materials are issued to contractors and home owners for selected building material items essential for the completion of government approved projects. In order to assemble the information it would be necessary to survey several thousands of contractors who have made use of 25.788 priorities issued during 1946. Although the survey would take several months, its results would be uncertain because of the imcompleteness of the records kept by some contractors.



EXPORTS AND IMPORTS-CHINA

Mr. TIMMINS:: 1.	What value of commodities was exported from Canada to China in 1946, and what was the amount of imports from China during the same period?
2.	Has the government of Canada an interest in any company or companies dealing with China or Chinese companies, and if so, in what commodities and what was the amount of the business done in 1946, and what are the names of the companies?


Mr. MacKINNON:: 

PRINTING BUREAU-PRINTING TRADES WORKERS

Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	How many printing trades employees were employed at the government printing bureau at Ottawa as at a chosen date (e.g., 1st, 15th of 30th) of each month during 1946?
2.	What was the total number of man-hours of overtime worked at the government printing bureau by printing trades workers during each month of 1946?
3.	Beyond what point in terms of number of hours (by day and/or by week) is it considered that such workers are working overtime?


Mr. GIBSON (Hamilton West):: 1.	January 31	 423
February 28	 423
March 31	 440
April 30	 450
May 31	 454
June 30	 451
July 31	 451
August 31	 450
September 30	 445
October 31	 452
November 30	 459
December 31	 460
Hours
2.	January	 2,513-0
February	 2,294-5
March	 2,620-0
April	 3,326-3
May	 5,193-0
June	 3,001-7
July	 5,535-9
August	 6,905-7
September	 458-0
October	 2,048-5
November	 3,013-5
December	   1,960.0
3.	By day-Mondays to Fridays, 8 hours; Saturdays, 4 hours.



EXCESS PROFITS TAX

Mr. HEON:: By provinces, what sums have been received by the federal treasury from excess profits taxes each year, ,1940 to 1946 inclusive?


James Joseph McCann: The following amounts were received from excess profits taxes during the fiscal years indicated:
All Provinces	 Nil
1941-	'
Prince Edward Island	 5,280
Nova Scotia	 169,510
New Brunswick	 122,375
Quebec	 5,863|731
Ontario	 15,990,523
Manitoba	 477,305
Saskatchewan	 28,451
Alberta	 404,608
British Columbia	 924,486
Yukon	 9,000
Total, 1941

Questions

Prince Edward Island	 107,475
Nova Scotia	 2,934,395
New Brunswick	 1,605.100
Quebec	 39,971,887
Ontario	 68,930,877
Manitoba	 4,065,485
Saskatchewan	 535,986
Alberta	 2,118,544
British Columbia	 14,844,652
Yukon	 53,944
Total, 1942	 $135,16S,345
Prince Edward Island	 274,137
Nova Scotia	 9,431,877
New Brunswick	 5,842,460
Quebec	 140,288,745
Ontario	 238,067,692
Manitoba	 13,116,342
Saskatchewan	 1,740,872
Alberta	 6,069,346
British Columbia	 39,567,305
Yukon	 181,901
Total, 1943	 $454,580,677
Prince Edward Island	 450,206
Nova Scotia	 10,649,031
New Brunswick	 8,520,253
Quebec	 139,662,464
Ontario	 238,642,308
Manitoba	 17,884,757
Saskatchewan	 2,522,022
Alberta	 8,786,159
British Columbia	 41,233,984
Yukon	 366,656
Total, 1944	 $468,717,840
Prince Edward Island	 872,172
Nova Scotia	 11,736,105
New Brunswick	 9,485,724
Quebec	 128,505,685
Ontario	 232,896,415
Manitoba	 28,787,713
Saskatchewan	 3,942,569
Alberta	 11,355,106
British Columbia	 37,869,095
Yukon	 354,773
Total, 1945	 $465,805,357

Prince Edward Island	 902,864
Nova Scotia	 13,490,704
New Brunswick	 10,844,277
Quebec	 151,002,358
Ontario	 223,634,790
Manitoba	 28,089,644
Saskatchewan	 5,363,786
Alberta	 14,597,561
British Columbia	  46,046,530
Yukon	 223,879
Total, 1946	 $494,196,483



IMMIGRATION

Mr. McKAY:: 1.	How many immigrants were admitted to Canada in the calendar year 1946?
2.	What was the racial origin of these immigrants?
3.	What has been the total immigration to Canada up to date since 1930?
4.	How many Canadians have been repatriated from the United States or elsewhere for each year since 1930?


Mr. GLEN:: 1.	Immigration to Canada during calendar year 1946-71,719.
2.	Racial Origin:
Albanian, 2; Armenian, 12; Belgian, 751; Bohemian, 31; British: English, 42,197; Irish, 4,632; Scotch, 10,209; Welsh, 1,294; Bulgarian, 3, Chinese, 8; Croatian, 10; Czech, 207; Dalmatian, 1; Dutch, 2,431; East Indian, 5; Esthonian, 8; Finnish, 56; French, 3,229; German, 1,298; Greek, 108; Hebrew, 2,100; Italian, 320; Japanese, 3; Jugo-Slav, 34; Lettish, 6; Lithuanian, 28; Magyar, 152; Maltese, 12; Mexican, 3; Moravian, 1; Negro, 173; North American Indian, 37; Persian, 3; Polish, 730; Portuguese, 47; Roumanian, 44; Russian, 213; Ruthenian, 171; Scandinavian: Danish, 168; Icelandic, 24; Norwegian, 456; Swedish. 231; Serbian, 18; Slovak, 19; Spanish, 49; Spanish American, 21; Swiss, 120; Syrian, 37; Turkish, 7; Total, 71,719.
3.	Total immigration January 1, 1930, to January 31, 1947-398,779.
4.	Information not available. There is no statistical record taken of persons repatriated to Canada.



EVAPORATED MILK

Mr. DORION:: 1.	During the twelve months preceding August, 1946, what was the production of evaporated milk in Canada?
2.	What quantity of such milk was exported during the same period?

Questions


Mr. MacKINNON:: 1.	The production of evaporated milk in Canada during the period August, 1945 to July, 1946 amounted to 198,394,000 pounds.
2.	Exports during the same period amounted to 62,423,900 pounds.



SHIPMENTS OF DOMESTIC FEED GRAIN FROM LAKEHEAD PORTS

Mr. CASSELMAN:: How many ears of domestic feed grain (a) wheat; (b) oats; (e) barley, were routed out of lakehead ports during each day, January 15, 1947 to date?


Lionel Chevrier: Number of cars of domestic grain shipped from lakehead' on each day from Janu-[DOT] ary 15 to February 26, inclusive
January 15	 45
January 16	 49
January 17	 43
January 18	   63
January 20	 40
January 21	 63
January 22	 47
January 23	 68
January 24	 71
January 25	 67
January 27	 33
January 28	 64
January 29	 59
January 30	 56
January 31	 89
February 1	 115
February 3	 34
February 4	 80
February 5	 73
February 6	 36
February 7	 97
February 8	 159
February 10	 44
February 11	 92
February 12	 100
February 13	 92
February 14	 90
February 15	 78
February 17	  49
February 18	i	 86
February 19	 94
February 20	 95
February 21	 68
February 22	 93
February 24	 30
February 25	 56
February 26	 77
The transport controller advises (a) records of cars moving in this service do not show the commodity carried; (b) some of these cars may have been consigned to mills and not direct for feed purposes.



INCOME TAX-FARMERS

Mr. McKAY:: 1.	What was the total amount of income tax paid by farmers in the dominion of Canada for each year including 1941 up to date?
2.	What portion of the total income tax paid by farmers in Canada was paid by farmers resident in Saskatchewan?


Mr. McCANN:: 1.	For 1941 taxation year $1,591,227; 1942, $3,271,190. For years subsequent to 1942 the information is still being assembled.
2.	For 1941-27-2 per cent; 1942-24-9 per eent.



TAX ON ELECTRIC POWER

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Will any consideration be given to lowering the tax on the use of domestic and commercial electric light and power in order to aid the housing situation during the coming year of record?
2.	What revenue is derived from this tax?


Mr. McCANN:: 1.	The sales tax does not apply to commercial electric light and power. The matter of change of taxation rates is a matter of government policy and will be announced in due course.
2.	As this is a sales tax the revenue derived is not kept separate and there is no information available as to the amount collected.



HILLSIDE HALL PROPERTY, HALIFAX

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	Has the (a) land; (b) buildings, at 21 South street, Halifax, N.S., formerly known as Hillside Hall, been sold or offered for sale, if so, to whom, when and for what price?
2.	Has the furniture and equipment at this property been sold or offered for sale; if so to whom, when and for what price?
3.	When was this property purchased by the government and at what cost for (a) land and buildings; (b) furniture and equipment?
4.	What were the total expenditures in connection with this property for (a) renovation; (b) repairs, from date of purchase to date of sale or if riot sold, present date?
5.	For what purposes was the property used since purchase by the government?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	(a) No; (b) no.
2.	On 20th July, 1946, furniture and equipment comprising regimental property was sold by public auction. The sum realized was $929.35. The names of the purchasers are not available. Furniture and equipment belonging to the Red Cross Society was returned to the society. Furniture and equipment belonging to ordnance was returned to ordnance.
Questions

3.	On 26th February, 1943, at a cost of
150,000	for land (a) and buildings at 21 South Street and 30 South Street purchased as a unit. There is no breakdown showing the purchase prioe of each property separately.
(b) Furniture andi equipment in situ was purchased for the sum of SI being chattels and effects included with purchase of property.
4.	(a) $24,708.91 for renovation of both
properties, $3,300 for heating system for both properties. There is no breakdown of these amounts available showing the amount spent on each building separately. $8,238.26 for fitting up 21 South Street as Nursing Sisters Accommodation.	-
(b) $5,000 from date of purchase to February 27, 1947.
5.	As C.W.A.C. and Nursing Sisters accommodation up to 24th July, 1946 and from that date as emergency married quarters.



OLD AGE PENSIONS

Mr. TREMBLAY:: .
1.	What amounts have been contributed by the federal government in each year, since 1936, to the government of the province of Quebec, for the payment of old age pensions?
2.	What percentage of the old age pensions paid in Quebec is contributed (a) by the federal government; (b) by the provincial government?


Mr. MARTIN:: 1.	Old Age	Blind
	Pensions	Pensions
1936-37 ..	... ,S 2,345.107.05	
1937-38 ..	.... 8.386,230.60	S 57,028.481938-39 ..	.... 7,637,019.04	263,451.541939-40 ..	.... 7,758,257.34	294,276.961940-41 ..	.... 7,199.832.61	336,873.461941-42 ..	.... 6,762.038.15	365,525.531942-43 ..	.... 7,048,885.34	379,129.291943-44 ..	.... 8,535,362.81	452,061.251944-45 ..	.... 10.386,114.68	530,168.531945-46 ..	.... 10,823,345.20	568,427.511946-47 ..	.... 8,548,716.99	452.498.12(9 months)	(9 months)
2. (a) 75 per cent; (b) 25 per cent.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS HOTELS

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	Does the Canadian National Railways intend to construct or erect or has it plans for the construction or erection of any hotels during the year 1947?
2.	If so, what cities are being considered as suitable locations in which construction of hotels will be gone ahead with?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.



CANADIAN COMMERCIAL CORPORATION

Mr. DORION:: 1.	At what date was the Canadian Commercial Corporation organized?
2.	Who are the members of the said corporation?
3.	What connection is there between the Canadian Commercial Corporation and the French government ?
4.	What are the duties of the Canadian Commercial Corporation?


Mr. MacKINNON:: 1.	May 1, 1946.
2.	Mr. M. W. Mackenzie, Deputy Minister, Department of Trade and Commerce, president.
Mr. H. B. McKinnon, chairman, Tariff Board, director.
Mr. David Sim, Deputy Minister (Customs and Excise), Department of National Revenue, director.
Mr. V. W. Scully, Deputy Minister, Department of Reconstruction and Supply, director.
Mr. L. P. Saint-Amour, Ass't. Deputy Governor. Bank of Canada, director.
Mr. IV. D. Low, Managing Director, Canadian Commercial Corporation, director.
Mr. Iv. W. Taylor, Deputy Chairman, Wartime Prices and Trade Board, director.
Mr. Charles Stein, Assistant Deputy Min-itser, Department of Justice, director.
Mr. S. D. Pierce, Chief, Economic Division, Department of External Affairs, director.
Order in council P.C. 599 dated February 18, 1947, appointed Messrs. J. E. Van Buskirk, president, Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation, V. C. Nauman, Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of National Revenue, and H. O. Moran, Economic Division, Department of External Affairs, to act as Directors for the period of March I, 1947, to September 30, 1947, during which time Messrs. H. B. McKinnon, S. D. Pierce, and D. Sim have been assigned duties which will require their attendance abroad.
3.	None. On specific requests made from time to time by the French Supply Council in Canada, the Canadian Commercial Corporation acts as agent on behalf of the Provisional Government of the French Republic for the procurement of Canadian goods and services.
4.	(a) To assist in the development of trade between Canada and other nations, and,
(b)	to assist persons in Canada, (i) to obtain goods and commodities from outside Canada; and (ii) to dispose of goods and commodities that are available for export from Canada;
(c)	by order in council P.C. No. 314 dated February 5, 1947, effective February 1, 1947, the power, duty and function vested in the

Questions
Minister of Reconstruction and Supply under the Department of Reconstruction and Supply Act 1945, and the Department of Munitions and Supply Act, to buy or otherwise acquire, manufacture or otherwise produce munitions of war or supplies and construct or carry out projects required by the Department of National Defence, was transferred from the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. The facilities of the Canadian Commercial Corporation. to whose staff has been added certain of the experienced personnel formerly employed by the Department of Reconstruction and Supply, is now utilized by the Minister of Trade and Commerce in arranging for the procurement of the requirements of the Department of National Defence and in negotiating contracts for the purchase thereof.



CANADIAN EXPORT BOARD

Mr. DORION:: 1.	At what date was the Canadian export board organized?
2.	Is it still in existence? If not, when was it dissolved?
3.	Who were the members of the Canadian export board?
4.	What agreements w'ere entered into by the Canadian Export board and the French government?


Mr. MacKINNON:: 1.	January 31. 1944.
2.	No. April 30, 1940.
3.	The original members of the Canadian Export Board were:
C. M. Croft, Director, Commercial Intelligence Service, Department of Trade and Commerce, chairman.
Yves Lamontagne, Director, Commercial Relations Division, Department of Trade and Commerce, member.
Dr. Stewart Bates, Special Assistant to the Deputy Minister of Fisheries, member.
A. M. Shaw, Director of Marketing, Department of Agriculture, member.
T. G. Major, Commodity Chief, Department of Trade and Commerce, member.
J. M. Boyer, Acting Secretary, Department of Trade and Commerce, member.
Upon the resignation of Mr. Yves Lamontagne, Mr. G. D. Mallory, Chief, Metal and Chemical Exports Division, Department of Trade and Commerce, was appointed a member, May 31, 1944.
Upon the resignation of Mr. C. M. Croft, Mr. John Eaton, Assistant General Purchasing Agent. C.P.R., was appointed Chairman, September 1, 1945.
Upon the resignation of Mr. John Eaton, Mr. W. D. Low, Executive Assistant (Pur-83166-76
chasing) Department of Reconstruction and Supply, was appointed Chairman, January 1 1946.
4.	None. On specific requests made from time to time by the French Supply Council in Canada, the Canadian Export Board acted as agent on behalf of the Provisional Government of the French Republic for the procurement of Canadian goods and services.



CANADIAN REPRESENTATION IN INDIA

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Has the government appointed an ambassador to India?
2.	If so, who is he; who recommended him and what is his salary and other emoluments?
3.	What is the number of his staff and the cost of same?
4.	Does the government recognize the provisional government set up in India, at Delhi, last December?
5.	What other dominions have embassies there?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	The government has not appointed an ambassador to India; a high commissioner to India has, however, been appointed.
2.	J. D. Kearney, K.C.; recommended by the government of Canada; salary $10,000; allowances not yet decided.
3.	Tentative arrangements are being made to send a staff of five. Their total salary would be $13,200. Allowances for this staff have not yet been decided.
4.	No provisional government was set up in India last December. In August, 1946, the Viceroy of India, with the approval of the United Kingdom government, invited Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, president of the Indian political organization known as the All-India Congress, to make proposals for the immediate formation of an interim government. Pandit Nehru thereupon proposed a list of names for inclusion in the interim government. These were approved by His Majesty the King and made public on August 24. They included representatives of the congress party, the scheduled castes, the Sikhs, the Christians, the Parsees, and the Moslems, but not of the principal Moslem political party known as the Moslem League. This interim government was sworn in and took office on September 2, 1946. On October 26 it was reorganized to include five members of the Moslem League. No question of non-recognition has arisen, The interim government is recognized by the governments of all other countries, including the government of Canada.
5.	No dominion has an embassy in India. Australia has a high commissioner's office in India.

Questions



INDIA-CANADIAN AGENTS-DELHI HALL

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Is the government aware that the new so-called provisional government constitutional meeting at Delhi, India, was held without the Moslems being represented?
2.	Has the government any information about the Delhi hall in which they met, or if the portraits there of the great rulers for the past hundred years were removed before the meeting:
3.	Has the government any immigration, commercial or other agents in India? If so, how many; at w'hat cost and where are they located.
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	The government is not aware of any so-called provisional government constitutional meeting at Delhi, India.
A constituent assembly commenced its meetings on December 9, 1946. It is composed of members elected by the legislative assemblies of the Indian provinces, and is charged with the duty of drawing up a constitution for India, For the purpose of electing representatives to the constituent assembly, each legislative assembly was divided into three sections, composed respectively of Moslem representatives, Sikh representatives and representatives of all other communities. Each of these sections in each assembly elected its own representatives to the	constituent
assembly, thus enabling all the principal Indian communities to be represented.
The representatives who belong to the principal Moslem political organization, the Moslem League, have not, up to the present, exercised their right to attend the meetings of the constituent assembly.
2.	No information.
3. The government has no immigration agents in India.
In so far as the Department of Trade and Commerce is concerned, we do maintain a trade commissioner office in Bombay, India. The total expenditure for the fiscal year 194546 was $17,998.



CANADIAN EMBASSIES OPENED SINCE LAST SESSION

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What embassies have been opened since last session by the government; where are they located and at what cost?
2.	What vote has been sanctioned by parliament to cover their expenses and salaries and staff?
3.	Who are these diplomats and what experience have they in diplomacy up to the time of their appointment?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1. Announcement has been made of our intention to open missions in India, Czechoslovakia, Poland and Sweden. They would be

located at Delhi, Prague, Warsaw and Stockholm. As these missions have not been opened, no costs are available.
2.	The expenses of these missions and the salaries of the staff have been sanctioned by parliament in vote 43, Representation abroad, miscellaneous item, new offices.
3.	Mr. J. D. Kearney has been appointed high commissioner -to India, Mr. Kearney was appointed high commissioner for Canada in Ireland in July 1941 and Canadian Minister to Norway in November 1945.
Mr. R. M. Macdonnell has been appointed Charge d'Affaires in Prague. Mr. Macdonnell has been a member of the Department of External Affairs since 1934 and has been posted in the interval to the then Canadian Legation in Washington, 1935, and the Canadian Embassy to the U.S.S.R, in 1943; he has attended numerous international conferences as adviser, and was Chief of the Third Political Division in the Department of External Affairs.
Mr. K. P. Kirkwood has been appointed Charge d'Affaires in Warsaw. Mr. Kirkwood was appointed to the Department of External Affairs in 1928 and served abroad in the then Canadian Legation in Washington in 1928, the then Canadian Legation in Tokyrn in 1929, the then Canadian Legation in The Hague in 1939; he opened the Canadian Consulate in Greenland, served with the Canadian Legation in Brazil and the Canadian Legation in the Argentine.
Mr. F. H. Palmer, M.C., has been appointed Charge d'Affaires a.i. in Stockholm. Mr. Palmer was appointed Junior Trade Commissioner in 1921 and Assistant Trade Comis-sioner in 1922 and Trade Commissioner in 1929. He has served in the United States, Italy, the United Kingdom, Australia and Sweden. In 1944 and in 1945 he went on a special mission to Chungking.



REPATRIATION OP CANADIANS FROM JAPAN

Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: ,1. Will the government of Canada collect from Japan the expense, including cost of transportation, of repatriating Canadians from Japanese prison and concentration camps?
2. If not, why will such collection not be made?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	No.
2.	Claims for specific items of government expenses arising out of the war with Japan

Questions
have not been presented by the Government of Canada to the Japanese government, through the supreme commander for the allied powers. The Canadian government expects to receive a share of the reparations in kind to be exacted from Japan. In the disposition of the proceeds of such reparations assets the cost incurred by the government in repatriating Canadians from Japan will be included in the Canadian government claim.



VETERANS PENSIONS-EDUCATIONAL BENEFITS

Mr. FULTON:: 1.	Does the Department of Veterans Affairs or the Canadian pension commission reduce the amount of pension otherwise payable to a disabled veteran who is in receipt of educational benefits?
2.	If so, what is the reason for this practice?
3.	What statute and/or regulation contains the authority for this reduction?


Mr. TUCKER:: 1. Pension is not reduced; educational allowance is reduced by a proportion of any pension in payment.
2 and 3. The Veterans Rehabilitation Act provides that educational allowance may be reduced because of income from other sources and a portion of the pension is regarded as such income. The rates of allowance are fixed by order in council P.C. 3244 of August 1, 1946, as amended by Order in council P.C. 4983 of December 3, 1946.



OVERSEAS AIR MAIL LETTER CARDS

Mr. FRASER:: 1.	Does the Canadian post office department sell air mail letter cards, similar to those authorized by the Australian and United States governments and used between these two countries?
2.	If so, what do these letter cards cost, and to what countries are they allowed to be mailed?


Mr. BERTRAND (Laurier):: 1.	No.
2.	See answer to No. 1.



BITUMINOUS COAL

Mr. MacLEAN:: 1.	What is the wholesale price per ton of American bituminous coal, duty paid, in Quebec, Montreal and Toronto?
2.	What is the amount of subvention paid for delivery of Nova Scotia coal in Quebec, Montreal and Toronto?
t 3. What is the wholesale price, per ton, of Nova Scotia coal in Quebec, Montreal and Toronto?


Mr. McILRAITH:: 1.	The wholesale price of American bituminous slack, duty paid, is as follows: Quebec city, $8.75; Montreal, 18.43; Toronto, $7.50.
2.	The amount of subvention per net ton 83166-76J
paid for delivery of Nova Scotia coal is calculated on a basis of 30 per cent of freight rate via all rail, under authority P.C. 3969.
3.	The wholesale price, per net ton of Nova Scotia coal is as follows: Quebec city, $8.40; Montreal, $9; Toronto, no movement of Nova Scotia coal at present.



EMERGENCY HOUSING

Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: What amount of money was paid by the federal government in 1946 to the municipalities toward emergency housing, and how many emergency housing units were created therefrom?


George James McIlraith: Commitments made to municipalities on account of emergency shelter, during 1946, totalled 81,230,860.00. This represents the maximum contribution by the federal government toward the cost of 2,580 units of emergency shelter.
During 1946 claims totalling $511,518.82 were paid against the amount committed.



BEDFORD BASIN NAVAL MAGAZINE

Mr. STANFIELD:: 1.	When and from whom did the government purchase the 2,000 acres of land adjoining the naval magazine in Bedford Basin, Nova Scotia?
2.	What was the purchase price paid for said land?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	Expropriation proceedings for the acquisition of land comprising approximately 1,286 acres adjoining the naval magazine depot at Bedford basin, Nova Scotia, were commenced on September 13, 1946. The names of the owners are not yet known. The titles to the lands involved are now being searched.
2.	The compensation to owners for the lands involved is not yet known.



SUBSIDIES FOR FISH DRAGGERS, MARITIME PROVINCES

Mr. McLURE:: How many fishermen or fishery companies have received subsidization for the building of fish draggers in (a) Nova Scotia; (b) New Brunswick; (c) Prince Edward Island?


Mr. BRIDGES:: (a) Nova Scotia, 6; (b) New Brunswick, nil; (c) Prince Edward Island, nil.



AIR TRANSPORT-NON-SCHEDUI.ED COMMERCIAL LICENCES

Mr. McKAY:: 
George James McIlraith: (a) 93; (b) 5.
Questions



CHARLOTTETOWN EAST SIDE RAILWAY WHARF

[Stage Direction]
Mr, McLURE:
Has a survey of the east side of the railway wharf at Charlottetown been made with a view of getting more shed shipping space?
Alphonse Fournier: Yes.



WHEAT-UNITED KINGDOM AGREEMENT

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MeCUAIG:	.
1.	How many bushels of wheat have been delivered to the United Kingdom on the five-year agreement, to date?
2.	How much wheat has been sold to all other countries during the contract period, to date, and at what price or prices?
3.	How many dollars have accumulated in the pool in excess of payments already paid to the Canadian wheat growers?
Mr. MacKINNON:: 1.	Deliveries of wheat under the United Kingdom, contract from August 1 to February 28, inclusive, have been 66,643,034 bushels.
In addition, 33,518,262 bushels of wheat have been made available to Canadian mills to be shipped as flour. This quantity is being applied against the United Kingdom contract during 1946-47. The rate of shipment of this flour is a matter between the United Kingdom ministry of food and the Canadian mills.
2.	Sales of wheat to countries other than the United Kingdom from August 1 to Feb-rurary 28 have been 15,080,140 bushels. In addition, 25,118,213 million bushels of wheat have been made available to Canadian mills to fill flour orders received from countries other than the United Kingdom.
The prices at which wheat has been sold to countries other than the United Kingdom for the period August 1, 1946 to January 31, 1947, appear on page 627 of Hansard. The price during February, 1947, ranged from $2.34 to $2.59 and the average was $2,454 basis No. 1 northern in store Fort William/Port Arthur.
3.	Answer not available for reasons set forth on page 631 of Hansard:



PUBLIC ACCOUNTS-AVAR ASSETS CORPORATION- MULTIPLE-TENANCY PROPERTY EXPENSES

Mr. FRASER:: 1.	What items are included in "expenses re multiple-tenancy property $227,287.10" in War Assets Corporation balance sheet, as shown on page VA 121 of the public accounts, part two, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1946?
2.	Where are each of the aforesaid properties located ?
3.	From whom are each of the said properties rented or leased?

4.	To what firms, or individuals, wrere the aforesaid moneys paid?


Mr. HOWE:: Mr. Speaker, my remarks on the previous question apply also to this one.


Mr. FRASER:: May we hear when the public accounts committee is going to sit so that we can have these questions answered?



SARNIA, ONT., MAIL CARRIERS

Mr. MURPHY:: 1.	What is the present yearly salary of each mail carrier at Sarnia, Ontario?
2.	What are the man hours per week for each mail carrier?
3.	What qualifications are necessary and are veterans now given preference?
4.	What is the yearly salary now being paid those entering the service as mail carriers?
5.	What is the maximum salary?
6.	What is the yearly retirement for each such
employee as and when he retires at the required time?	,


Mr. BERTRAND (Laurier):: 1.	Twelve at $2,124 per annum; one at $1,884 per annum; five at $1,764 per annum; six at $1,644 per annum.
2.	Forty-four hours per week.
3.	Ability as determined by civil service competitive examination; physical fitness to perform the duties required. Veterans are given preference.
4.	$1,644 per annum.
5.	$2,124 per annum.
6.	The annual allowance payable will be approximately as follows, provided:
(a)	the Civil Service Superannuation Act is not amended;
(b)	the employees remain in the service until they reach the age of 65 years; maximum and those below the maximum
(c)	those at the maximum salary retain that salary advance to the maximum by the usual statutory increases.
Nine at $1,486.80; one at $1,454.94; one at $1,445.90; one at $1,426.62; one at $1,416.00; one at $1,384.14; one at $1,327.50; one at $1,292.10; one at $1288.56; one at $1,242.54; one at $1,118.88; one at $1,058.46; one at $1,027.01; one at $987.66; one at $902.70; one at $569.94.



COARSE CRAINS AND MILL FEEDS-FREIGHT RATES

[Stage Direction]
Mr. SENN.
What was the amount of money paid out for freight rate assistance on coarse grains and mill feeds shipped from the lake head eastward in each year since the scheme became operative?
Mr. GARDINER:: The comparison follows:



COMPARISON OF FREIGHT ASSISTANCE ON WESTERN GRAINS AND FEEDS SHIPPED INTO EASTERN CANADA DURING THE

[Stage Direction]
CALENDAR YEARS 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, 1945 and 1946.
(The same comparison for British Columbia.)
Wheat	Oats	Barley	Rye(Bus.)	(Bus.)	(Bus.)	(Bus.)
Screenings Millfeeds (Tons) (Tons)
Calendar Year 1941
Ontario	
Quebec	
New Brunswick	
Nova Scotia	
Prince Edward Island	
Total for Eastern Canada British Columbia	
Ontario	
Quebec	
New Brunswick	
Nova Scotia	
Prince Edward Island	
Total for Eastern Canada . British Columbia	
Ontario	
Quebec	
New Brunswick	
Nova Scotia	
Prince Edward Island	
Total for Eastern Canada ... British Columbia	
1,704,918 752,816 .58,902 125,452 16,932	1,971,903 1,802,068 217,900 215,297 8,085	1,636,119 1,213,456 90,248 150,044 21,748	182,645 5,100 2,004 2,448	Corn 31,107	11,985 2,421 139 152 4	28,809 50,565 7,031 8,340 1,182	Eastern Canada: British Columbia: Total:	$ 1,778,824.13 134,679.41 $ 1,913,503.542,659,020 317,302	4,215,253 238,841	3,111,615 125,827	192,197 337	14,701 156	95,927 3,407	Calendar Year 1942	8,323,136 5,190,310 609,083 665,775 274,287	8,368,574 6,559,747 983,300 1,142,238 181,750	5,513,377 5,524,488 567,646 1,141,619 265,067	608,902 110,593 19,675 24,236 2,902	Corn 290,396	33,675 25,984 1,397 912 168	162,601 295,086 41,701 43,923 9,207	Eastern Canada: British Columbia: Total:	$ 9,018,465.05 993,144.63 $10,011,609.6815,062,591 2,253,310	17,235,609 1,504,706	13,012,197 625,506	766,308 127	62,136 2,874	552,518 35,675	Calendar Year 1943	12,912,047 8,044,095 887,290 1,317,995 550,303	25,115,056 10,809,606 1,623,873 1,764,538 425,388	15,119,104 12,178,019 1,222,708 1,642,314 557,627	223,987 88,414 13,582 6,359 2,427	Corn 148,114	26,436 11,625 903 495 111	238,591 306,749 50,015 54,744 14,533	Eastern Canada: British Columbia: Total:	$14,843,113.37 1,428,211.03 $16,271,324.4023,711,730 3,074,037	39,738,461 2,432,773	30,719,772 1,162,602	334,769	39,570 1,799	664,632 55,720	
{Mr. Gardiner.]

[Stage Direction]
CALENDAR YEARS 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, 1945 and 1946- Cone.
(The same comparison for British Columbia.)
Wheat	Oats	Barley	Rye	Screenings	Millfeeds(Bus.)	(Bus.)	(Bus.)	(Bus.)	(Tons) (Tons)
Calendar Year 1944
Ontario	
Quebec	
New Brunswick	
Nova Scotia	,	
Prince Edward Island	
11,811,165 	
8,136,737 	
810,643 	
1,317,963 	
454,295	20,301,744 13,701,497 1,455,432 1,863,294 375,776	13,657,269 13,499,544 1,188,729 1,449,869 473,377	72,341 70,337 130	Corn 153,275	36,951 18,964 1,648 576 138	236,363 292,090 48,027 59,632 13,207	Total for Eastern Canada	
British Columbia	
22,530,803 	
3,807,057	37,697,743 3,085,718	30,268,788 1,287,123	142,808 36	58,277 1,916	649,319 64,186	Eastern Canada: British Columbia:	$14,492,134.50 1,714,965.59Total:	$16,207,100.09Calendar Year 1945	Ontario.	
Quebec	
New Brunswick	
Nova Scotia	
Prince Edward Island	
12,589,832 	
8,377,092 	
923,405 	
1,073,562 	
468,437	23,259,521 16,343,259 2,012,950 2,122,447 378,150	13,287,308 12,163,358 1,335,362 1,387,221 476,744	2,916 2,198 150 70	Corn 167,182	40,739 20,661 2,429 714 121	242,153 308,198 52,762 54,365 13,376	Total for Eastern Canada	
British Columbia	
23,432,328 	
3,775,873	44,116,327 3,615,903	28,649,993 1,183,144	5,334	64,664 2,166	670,854 63,470	Eastern Canada: British Columbia. .	$15,101,488.77 . 1,750,192.29Total:	$16,851,681.06Calendar Year 1946	Ontario	
Quebec	
New Brunswick	
Nova Scotia	
Prince Edward Island	
10,214,147 	
7,493,082 	
814,318 	
985,955 	
476,062	25,856,224 17,662,824 2,438,885 2,716,721 643,971	16,770,612 17,602,356 1,588,429 1,720,573 546,500	707 32	Corn 185,187	32,421 20,999 3,564 1,932 378	270,249 313,929 54,732 56,859 15,153	Total for Eastern Canada	
British Columbia	
19,983,564 	
4,021,842	49,318,625 3,792,553	38,228,470 1,228,569	739	59,294 2,582	710,922 68,192	Eastern Canada: British Columbia:	$16,477,533.17 1,859,725.32
Total:
[Stage Direction]
1186	COMMONS
Questions﻿MARCH 10, 1947
Questions

Gordon Knapman Fraser: What items are covered by "Building operating expense $65,729.96" shown in schedule "A," page VA 122, of the public accounts, part two, covering the fiscal year ending March 31, 1946?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, may I call your attention to the fact that the public accounts have been referred to the standing committee on public accounts, and I suggest that ques-ions relating to public accounts are therefore not in order.


Mr. JACKMAN:: The committee ha3 not been set up.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I submit, Mr. Speaker, that that does not apply in this case, because the public accounts committee is not sitting and there is nothing before that committee at the present time. This question relates to what happened in 1946, and I do not see why it cannot be answered. It seems strange that we cannot get an answer to question on War Assets transactions.


James Horace King: I would call attention to the fact that on Tuesday, February 26, on motion of the Minister of Finance, it was ordered by the house that the public accounts and the report of the auditor general for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1946, be referred to the standing committee on public accounts. Therefore these questions are not in order.


Mr. GRAYDON:: Mr. Speaker, may I make a suggestion before you rule the question out of order? You have already passed a question by the member for Kindersley (Mr. Jaenicke), in connection with the patent office, which is on all fours with this one.


James Horace King: Order. The hon. gentleman knows the rule. I have no choice but to declare this question out of order, since public accounts have been referred to the committee.
rUBLIC ACCOUNTS-BUILDING ALTERATIONS AND IMPROVEMENTS


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What items are covered by "Building alterations and improvements. $220,417.91" as shown in schedule "A" page YA 122 of the public accounts part two, covering the fiscal year March 31, 1946?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, my remarks on the public accounts committee apply also to this question.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Why cannot we have an answer? Your ruling, Mr. Speaker, is not in accordance with the ruling you gave last year-



VETERANS ATTENDING UNIVERSITY-PENSIONS AND EDUCATIONAL GRANTS

Mr. FULTON:: 1.	What formula is followed in calculating the total amount payable by way of pension and educational grant to (a) a single disabled veteran attending university; (b) a married disabled veteran attending university?
2.	What is the reason for the adoption of this formula?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: 1.	The maximum rates of educational allowances payable to pensioners are set forth in the schedule to order in council P.C. 3244 of August 1, 1946, passed under the authority of section 19 of the Veterans Rehabilitation Act.
2.	To encourage disabled veterans to take training.



CANADIAN ARMY

Mr. PE A RICES:: 1.	Is the Canadian army still on active service ?
2.	If not, when did it cease to be?
3.	If so, when will it return to its peace-time status?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	The Canadian Army (except the reserve force and the supplementary reserve) is still on active service.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	The date when it will return to peacetime status has not been determined.



LOANS TO VETERANS ATTENDING UNIVERSITY

Mr. MUTCH:: 1.	How many student veterans in the universities of Canada have been granted loans under the provisions of the order made last session?
2.	How many have been refused?
3.	What steps have been taken to make university authorities aware of the loan regulations?
4.	What are the regulations governing the making of these loans?
5.	Have representations been received requesting that these loans be made available to vocational students taking a course of fifteen months or more?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: 1.	159.
2.	40.
3.	(a) Full information has been communicated to the district supervisors of counselling and training services of the Department of Veterans Affairs who attend each meeting of the student veteran loan board of the university concerned. These officials were instructed, at the time the regulations became effective, to acquaint the university head concerned with the regulations governing loans.
118S
Questions

(b)	The veterans adviser at universities is in possession of full particulars.
(c)	Each member of the advisory committee on university training for veterans, including the university members, was given full particulars.
(d)	Copies of the veterans university loans regulations were sent to each university.
4.	Order in council P.C. 4061 of October 1, 1946.
5.	No.



PUBLIC DEBT

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: 1.	As of August 31, 1939; June 30, 1945; and December 31 1946, what was the total of the miniatured direet funded debt of the dominion of Canada?
2.	Of this debt, what portion was held (a) by the public, exclusive of the Bank of Canada and the chartered banks; (b) by the Bank of Canada and the chartered banks?
3.	As at the same dates, what was the total sum held, in the form of bank deposits, bank notes, and coin, by individuals, corporations, and public bodies in Canada (other than government of Canada, the Bank of Canada, or the chartered banks) ?


Mr. MAYHEW:: 1.	Unmatured direct funded debt including treasury bills, deposit certificates and refundable portion of income and excess profits taxes;
August 31, 1939, $3,433,079,761.70; June 30, 1945. $15,082,596,797.74; December 31, 1946, $16,811,919,494.05.
2.	It is not possible to furnish the answer to this question as the balance sheet of the
Bank of Canada does not show separately Dominion and provincial government securities. The return of the assets and liabilities of the chartered banks for August 31, 1939, shows Dominion government direct and guaranteed securities and provincial government direct and guaranteed securities combined. The returns of the assets and liabilities of the chartered banks for June 30, 1945, and December 31, 1946. do not show separately Dominion government direct and guaranteed securities. However, in a publication dated December 31, 1945, issued by the national war finance committee, estimates were published showing amount and estimated ownership of direct funded debt of Canada as at December 31, of each year from 1938 to 1945. The figures given for 1945 were preliminary. Final estimates for that date or estimates for a later date have not yet been published. For the dates nearest the dates for w'hich information is desired, the following data have been extracted from this publication;
(In millions of dollars)
Held by	Dec.31,1939 Dec.'31,1945(*)
Bank of Canada	...	215	1,823Chartered Banks	..	827	3,069Sub-total	
1,042	4,892Others	
2,485	11,532Total	
3,527	16,424
(*) Preliminary.
3.
Deposits by the public in the chartered banks payable on demand in Canada	
Deposits by the public in the chartered banks payable after notice or on a fixed day in Canada	
Deposits in the chartered banks by the public in Canada in currencies other than Canadian	
Deposits by and balances due to Provincial Governments in chartered banks

June 30 1945



$1,857,331,097 2,645,536 S95 55,640,326 102,675,914 $2,290,808,904 3,469,321.505 96,727,244 125,969,181 $2,584,425,848 $4,661,184,232 $5,982,826,834

[Stage Direction]
Bank of Canada Notes and Chartered Bank Notes outstanding less amounts held by
chartered banks	 209,927,827	970,235,612	1 030,762.330
Subsidiary coinage issued less withdrawals and amounts held by Bank of Canada and
chartered banks	 31,187,247	61,413,374	64,729,204
[Stage Direction]
Questions

Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: What was the amount collected in 1946 under the tax upon soft drinks and aerated beverages?


James Joseph McCann: 1 cent per bottle 25 per cent
Domestic .... 89,958,406 07	$7,527,701 35
Importation ...	603 52	2,071 48
89,959,009 59	$7,529,772 83



AIR MAIL POSTAL SERVICE-TOTAL EXPENDITURE

Mr. ISNOR:: What was the total amount expended by the post office department on air mail postage for the periods from (a) April 1, 1944 to March 31, 1945; (b) April 1, 1945 to March 31, 1946; (c) April 1, 1946 to February 28. 1947?


Mr. BERTRAND (Laurier):: (a) $3,615.59; (b) $3,974.99; (c) $3,974.77.



PUBLIC ACCOUNTS-WAR ASSETS CORPORATION- WAREHOUSING EXPENSES

Gordon Knapman Fraser: What items are included in "warehousing expenses $3,635,357.43" in War Assets Corporation as shown on page VA 123, public accounts, part II, for fiscal year ending March 31, 1946?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This question also applies
to the public accounts which have been referred to a committee of the house.
Question dropped.



VETERANS' TRAINING CENTRE, PICTOU, N.S.

Mr. BROOKS:: 1.	How many persons are employed at the veterans' training centre, Pictou, Nova Scotia, on (a) instructional staff; (b) clerical and maintenance staff; (c) commissary staff?
2.	How many in each instance are veterans and how many non-veterans?
3.	If non-veterans are employed, what are the reasons for such employment?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	The following staff is employed by Canadian vocational training at the veterans' training centre at Pictou, Nova Scotia:-
(a) Instructional staff, 20; (b) clerical staff, 3; maintenance staff, 9; (c) The commissary staff is employed by the Canada Catering Company, not by Canadian Vocational Training.
2.	(a) Instructional staff-14 veterans; 6 non-veterans.
(b) Clerical	staff-2	veterans;	1 nonveteran. Maintenance	staff-7	veterans;	2 nonveterans.
(c) See answer to 1 (c) above.
3. Non-veterans were taken on because no others were available at the time of hiring. 83166-77



WAR ASSETS-OFFICE FURNITURE

Mr. GRAYDON:: 1.	How many office desks and chairs have been declared surplus since the cessation of hostilities by any department of government?
2.	How many of these have been (a) sold; (b) stored, by war assets corporation?
3.	What contracts have been given by the various departments of government for new office desks and chairs since the cessation of hostilities and how many desks and chairs were involved in the said contracts?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I spoke about chairs and office furniture on an earlier occasion and explained to the house how difficult it is to prepare lists of that kind. Office furniture is usually declared surplus as incidental to a manufacturing plant, and is usually sold as an appurtenance of the manufacturing plant. With a great deal of effort and expense a partial list of furniture could be prepared, but it would be by no means complete. I suggest that the purpose of the question might be served if parts 1 and 2 were dropped and part 3 made an order for return.


Gordon Graydon: I should like to consider the matter before I drop it. Perhaps the minister will allow it to stand.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.
Question stands.



TARIFF INCREASES

Mr. THATCHER:: Since January 1, 1946, what tariff increases, if any, have been made by the Canadian government by order in council or otherwise?


Robert Wellington Mayhew: Since January 1, 1946, no tariff increases have been made by the Canadian government by order in council or otherwise. However, the expiry or revocation of certain wartime orders has restored some statutory rates of duty which on January 1, 1946, were subject to reduction or suspension by order in council.



VETERANS ATTENDING UNIVERSITY-INSURANCE AND COST OF LIVING BONUS

Mr. CHURCH:: What action has been taken by the government to give student veterans attending universities a cost of living bonus, and some form of assistance in the way of life and health insurance which reestablishing themselves at the universities?


Mr. MACKENZIE:: Educational allowance has been increased twice since inaugurated in 1941; life insurance is available under the terms of the Veterans Insurance Act; treatment is provided under the terms of the



REVISED OITIOX

[Stage Direction]
Questions
[Stage Direction]
treatment regulations (order in council P.C. 4465 of June 13, 1944, as amended) for veterans attending university under the Veterans Rehabilitation Act.

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Has any proposal been received by the government of Canada from the government of Great Britain regarding the situation in Greece?
2.	Has Canada any forces in that country at the present, or any representatives? If so, rvho are they?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:
1.	No.
2.	Canada has no forces in Greece at present. Major General the Hon. L. R. LaFleehe, D.S.O., is the Canadian ambassador to Greece.
air mail


Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Has consideration been given to the sending of all first-class mail between distant points in Canada by air mail? If so, what action has been taken in the matter?
2.	Have any steps been taken to reduce Canadian air mail postage? If so, what has been done in this regard?


Ernest Bertrand: This question has to do with the policy of two departments, Trans-Canada Air Lines and the Post Office. All I can say at the moment is that we are studying this question and giving serious consideration to it.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. HAZEN:: 1.	What was the total value of war contracts awarded by dominion government departments or crown companies during the war years in (a) Prince Edward Island; (b) Nova Scotia; (cl New Brunswick; (d) Quebec; (e) Ontario; (f) Manitoba; (g) Saskatchewan; (h) Alberta; (i) British Columbia?
2.	What amounts have been spent by Wartime Housing Limited, and how many housing units have been provided in (a) Prince Edward Island; (b) Nova Scotia; (c) New Brunswick; (d) Quebec; (e) Ontario; (f) Manitoba; (g) Saskatchewan; (h) Alberta; (i) British Columbia?


George James McIlraith: Return tabled.


NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL-PATENTS
Mr. JAENICKE:: 1.	How many patents has the National Research Council acquired since its establishment (a) by discovery or invention; (b) by purchase?

2.	How many patents has the National Research Council sold, assigned, or made available to the public since the establishment of the council?
3.	Of the patents sold, assigned, or made available to the public (a) what was the nature, title and name of the patent involved in each sale or disposal; (b) on what dates were the patents so disposed of in each case; (c) who were the purchasers or assignees or grantees of such patents in each case; (d) what was the price or consideration in each case (e) which of these dispositions, sales or assignments were outright sales?


George James McIlraith: Return tabled.


NATIONAL FILM BOARD
Mr. CARDIFF:: 1.	Since January 1, 1945, what motion pictures have been produced by the National Film Board?
2.	W hat are the titles and the total cost of each such motion picture?
3.	Do the answers to questions 1 and 2 give a complete list of all films produced by or on behalf of the Government of Canada during the period mentioned?
4.	If not, give the titles and total cost of such other films indicating by whom they were produced ?


James Joseph McCann: Return tabled.



NATIONAL HOUSING ACT

Mr. FLEMING:: 1.	How many housing units were built and completed for occupancy in 1946?
2.	How many of that number were constructed (a) under Part I of the National Housing Act; (b) under Part II of the National Housing Act; (c) under Part III of the National Housing Act; (d) by the Veterans' Land Administration; (e) by Wartime Housing Limited; (f) by Housing Enterprises Limited?
3.	Up to December 31. 1946. under the
National Housing Act, 1944:	(a) How many
contracts have been entered into under Part I? (b) What is the total number of houses for which loans have been authorized under Part I? (e) How many of such houses have been completed and are now occupied? (d) What is the total amount of the loans authorized under Part I? (e) How many contracts have been entered into under Part II of the Act? (f) What is the total number of rental housing
(Mr. Hazen.]
projects for which loans have been authorized under Part II? (g) How many of such rental housing projects are low-rental housing projects? (h) How many of such rental housing projects have been completed and are now occupied, and how many of them are low-rental housing projects, and where are they located? (i) What is the total amount of the loans authorized under Part II? (j) How many limited dividend corporations have been recognized as qualified to receive loans under Section 9 of the Act? What are they and where are they authorized to operate rental housing projects? Which ones are institutional housing corporations, and which are institutional holding companies? (k) Which of such limited dividend housing corporations have

Orders for Returns
received loans under Part II? (1) (1) To how many municipalities have grants been made pursuant to section 12;	(2) what are the
individual amounts of such grants and what municipalities respectively received them; (3) what are the other terms, if any, of the said grants? (m)	(1) How many municipalities
have applied for grants pursuant to section 12; (2) how many have been refused; (3) how many of such applications are still pending? (n) How many contracts have been entered into under Part III? (o)	(1) What is the total
number of houses for which loans have been authorized under Part III; (2) how many of such houses have been completed and are now occupied? (p) What is the total amount of the loans authorized under Part III? (q) How many contracts have been entered into with manufacturers of plumbing and heating equipment or other component parts of houses, pursuant to Section 15? (r) How many payments have been made under part IV, and what is the total thereof? (s) What studies and investigations, planning and research have been carried on under part V? (t) What expenditures have been made pursuant to part V out of the .$5,000,000 authorized by parliament in 1945, under section 27A?
RADIO* BROADCASTING-PROVINCIAL-OWNED STATIONS IN MANITOBA AND ALBERTA


Mr. THATCHER:: 1.	Did the C.B.C. refuse a licence to the Saskatchewan government to purchase radio station CHAB Moose Jaw. If so, on what grounds?
2.	Are any provincial-owned stations operating in Manitoba or Alberta?
3.	If so. what stations?
4.	Has the C.B.C. taken any action regarding a change in the ownership of these stations?


Mr. GIBSON (Hamilton West):: Return tabled.



WHEAT-SHIPMENTS TO BRITAIN

Mr. REID:: 1.	What quantiles of wheat have been shipped to Great Britain during the calendar months of 1946?
2.	Of the quantities of wheat shipped to Great Britain how many bushels have been routed through the various ports of Canada?
3.	What department of government is responsible for the routing of grain from Canada to Great Britain?
4.	What department of government is responsible for the storage of wheat in the various governmental elevators?
5.	What quantities of wheat have been stored in the various elevators by this same authority?


James Joseph McCann: Return tabled.



POSTAL RATES

Thomas Langton Church: What action has been taken since the postmaster general's estimates were before the house last August, with respect to a reduction of the postal rates (a) in cities, from three to one cent; (b) letters for delivery in Canada, from four to three cents; (c) to extend the postal 83166-77 i
system on additional lines to include all the functions of the present British post office system ?


Colin William George Gibson: Return tabled.



CIVIL SERVICE-WAR DUTIES SUPPLEMENTS

Mr. MENARY:: 1.	How many (a) permanent civil servants, and (b) temporary civil servants are still receiving war duties supplements?
2.	What are the names of (a) permanent civil servants, and (b) temporary civil servants who are still receiving war duties supplements?
3.	In what department of government is each such person employed?
4.	What is the amount of each war duties supplement paid to each such person?
5.	What are the extraordinary duties performed by each such person for which the war
, duties supplement is paid? j 6. What is the salary, exclusive of war duties supplement, of each such person?



PAYMENT OF MUNICIPAL TAXES BY CROWN COMPANIES

Mr. MURPHY:: 1.	Do crown companies pay to any municipality municipal taxes or any sum in lieu of municipal taxes, or a grant, yearly or otherwise, for any purpose, or any sum determined by the government or its agents, or agreed upon by the government or its agents and such municipality?
2.	If so, which municipalities and what crown companies, and what were the sums so paid each year, 1940 to 1946 inclusive?



PATENTS

Mr. JAENICKE:: 1.	How many notices has the commissioner of patents sent under section 64 of the Patents Act to patentees or their representatives since the enactment of the said section?
2.	How many returns were made in respect of such notices sent by the commissioner?
3.	How many applications were made to the commissioner under section 65 of the Patents Act since the enactment of the said section (a) by the attorney general of Canada; (b) by any other person interested, and what was the nature of the abuse complained of in such applications?
4.	How many of the applications made undeT section 65 were dealt with by the commissioner?
5.	In how many cases did the commissioner find that abuse was established, and what was the nature of the patents involved and the nature of the abuse complained of in each case?
6.	In how many cases did the commissioner find that abuse was not established, and wha1 was the nature of the patents and the nature of the abuse complained of in each case?
7.	How many such applications under the said section 65 of the Patents Act were abandoned?
8.	Are there any applications under section 65 of the Patents Act now pending?
9.	In those cases in which the commissioner held abuse to be established under section 65 of the Patents Act what powers did he exercise in each case?
Orders for Returns

10.	Were any orders or decisions of the commissioner under sections 65 to 70 of the Patents Act appealed to the exchequer court, and if so state the nature of the patents and of the abuse of same involved in each case where such appeal was allowed or where such appeal was dismissed!


Colin William George Gibson: Return tabled.	.



SUBSIDIES AND OTHER ASSISTANCE TO COAL OPERATORS IN MARITIMES

Alfred Johnson Brooks: What assistance has been given by any department of the government to each individual coal operator in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia from the year 1925 to the end of the year 1946 by way of (a) subventions; (b) bonus; (c) other assistance?


George James McIlraith: Return tabled.



IM MIGRATION-HUTTERITES

Mr. HANSELL:: 1.	Under what act, treaty or regulation have the people known as Hutterites been permitted to enter Canada?
2.	When did this act, tre&ty or regulation first become effective?
3.	How many Hutterites have come to Canada during each of the years since they were first permitted to enter?
4.	How many Hutterite colonies are there in each of the provinces of Canada?
5.	What is the total Hutterite population in
'Canada?
6.	What is the total Hutterite population in Alberta?
7.	How many colonies are there and what is the total population of Hutterites south of High river in the province of Alberta?



ORDERS IN COUNCIL-MILITIA ACT

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	(a) How many orders in council were passed between the 3rd of September, 1939, and the 10th of May, 1945; (b) from May, 1945 to September, 1945. both inclusive; (c) from the 1st of October, 1945, and to date?
2.	Of these, how many were passed in each of the said periods in connection with the army and under the provisions of the Militia Act?



MARITIME PROVINCES FISHERY INSPECTORS

Douglas King Hazen: What are the names and addresses of the men residing in the electoral district of St. John-Albert, New Brunswick, who applied for positions of fisheries inspectors in the maritime provinces in 1946?
Mr. GIBSON (Hamilton West) Return tabled.



CADETS-ARMY, NAVY AND AIR

Mr. HAMEL:: 1.	In 1946, what was the number of (a) army; (b) navy; (c) air cadets, in each province?
[Mr. Jaenicke.J
2.	What was the cost of training army cadets in 1946 in each province?
3.	What amount is paid for each army cadet, and for what purpose?
4.	When recruiting army cadets, is the consent asked of (a) parents; (b) children; (c) other persons?
5: Is the use of the French and English languages optional in the training of (a) army; (b) navy; (c) air cadets?
7. What is the training programme for army cadets?


Hugues Lapointe: Return tabled.



NATIONAL FILM BOARD-CLIPPING SERVICE

Mr. FRASER:: 1.	What newspapers, magazines, periodicals and pamphlets did the national film board subscribe to during 1946-47?
2.	How many employees of the national film board are employed in reading newspapers, magazines, periodicals and pamphlets, and cutting out clippings from same during 1946-47?
3.	What use does the national film board make of these clippings?


James Joseph McCann: Return tabled.



MEDICAL DOCTORS

Mr. SHAW:: 1.	By provinces, how many medical doctors are there in Canada?
2.	How many medical students were registered at Canadian universities as at December 31, 1946?
3.	How many medical doctors left Canada during 1945 and 1946 to establish residence elsewhere ?
4.	Under existing immigration regulations, do medical doctors qualify as admissible persons?
6.	Who decides whether French or English is to be used in training?
5.	How many medical doctors who have come to Canada since January 1, 4940, have sought but not yet been granted permission to engage in the practice of their profession?



CANCELLATION OF NATIONALIZATION CERTIFICATES

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: Have any certificates of naturalization been cancelled during each of the years 1945, 1946 and 1947 to date? If so, how many and on what grounds?


Colin William George Gibson: Return tabled.



CANADIAN OVERSEAS FIRE FIGHTERS

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Has anything been done since last session to implement the recommendations of the committee on veterans affairs for full recognition and equal status of the firemen who enlisted for active service in the last war in the armed forces overseas?
2.	What action has the government taken on the matter, if any, for 1947?

Orders for Returns



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE-VANCOUVER CONSTRUCTION FIRMS

Mr. MacINNIS:: 1.	Have certain construction firms in Vancouver, British Columbia, collected unemployment insurance contributions, which they failed to account for to the unemployment insurance commission?
2.	If so, what are the names of such firms?
3.	Have prosecutions or proceedings to collect been taken against these firms?
4.	What is the status of the employees of such firms with the unemployment insurance commission in case of claims for unemployment insurance benefits?


Mr. MITCHELL:: Return tabled.



HOUSING-CONSTRUCTION UNDER DIFFERENT GROUPS

Mr. TIMMINS:: 1.	How many houses were constructed in Canada in 1946 under the following groups: (a) Wartime Housing Limited; (b) integrated housing; (c) Veterans' Land Act; (d) Housing Enterprises Limited?
2.	How many of these houses in each of these groups were actually rented to tenants?
3.	Were any emergency housing units included in the minister's total of 60,000 units for 1946, and if so, how many?



HOUSING CONTRACTS

Harold Aberdeen Watson Timmins: What contracts are in existence at this date for houses to be completed in 1947 and how many housing units will be provided thereunder: (a) Wartime Housing Limited; (b) Integrated Housing; (c) Veterans' Land Act; (d) Housing Enterprises Limited?



EXCHEQUER COURT-DECISIONS AGAINST THE CROWN

Mr. DORION:: During the last five years (a) how many decisions were rendered against the crown by the exchequer court; (b) what time elapsed between the final judgment-of the exchequer court or court of appeal, as the case may be-and the carrying out, by the crown, of the orders made?



GOVERNMENT AGENCIES-BUILDING SPACE THROUGHOUT CANADA

Donald Methuen Fleming: What was the total amount of building space occupied in each of the cities of Canada by the government and all government boards and commissions on the following dates: (1) August 1, 1939; (2) August 15, 1945; (3) February 1, 1947?


Mr. ISNOR:: 1.	What were the net earnings per man for each of the years 1938, 1939, 1944, 1945. 1946, of pilots in the following districts: Halifax, Sydney, Saint John, Quebec, Montreal and British Columbia?
2.	What was the total number of pilots for each district in these years?



FREIGHT RATES

Mr. IRVINE:: 1.	Are the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Pacific Railway permitted to compete in rates between points in Canada?
2.	Does the board of railway commissioners supervise the running time between Canadian National Railways and Canadian Pacific Railway between any competitive points in Canada?
3.	Is the Canadian National Railways permitted to take advantage of its favourable grades between Montreal and Vancouver (a) in time; (b) in rates?
4.	By what route and by what railways is mail carried to Jasper, Alberta, from Vancouver, British Columbia?



CANADIAN LEGION EDUCATIONAL SERVICE COURSES

Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	During the period January 1, 1940 to December 31, 1946, how many Canadian legion educational service correspondence courses were issued to (a) personnel of the three armed services and the merchant navy; (b) veterans of the three armed services?
2.	During January, 1947, how many applications were received for Canadian legion educational service courses from (a) service personnel; (b) veterans?
3.	During January, 1947, how many students were reported "active" by the correspondence instructors, and. of these, huw many were (a) service personnel; (b) veterans?
4.	What, if*any, plans for continuing to make these correspondence courses available to personnel of the armed services are under consideration?


Colin William George Gibson: Return tabled.



VETERANS' LAND ACT-DISTRICT AND REGIONAL OFFICES

Mr. STEPHENSON:: 1.	How many district and regional offices are there established in Canada under the Veterans' Land Act?
2.	Where are they located?
3.	What are the names of all those employed in any way with each district regional office, their occupation and salary?
4.	What has been the total cost for administration of the V.L.A. from its inception up to February 28, 1947?



REPATRIATION OF CANADIANS FROM JAPAN

George Black: What has it cost Canada to repatriate Canadian civilians from Japanees prison and concentration camps?



OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT


Jean-François Pouliot: What are the names of the persons who made joint or individual representations to the government in favour of the accused persons in the Gouzenko espionage investigation?
Orders jor Returns



CANADIAN REPRESENTATIVES ABROAD-ALLOWANCES FOR FURNITURE, ETC.

Mr. FRASER:: 1.	From January 1, 1940 until January 1, 1947, what amount has been allowed ambassadors, ministers, consul-generals, high commissioners and other members of the external affairs department outside of Canada, for (a) household furniture; (b) redecorating; (c) household supplies and equipment?
2.	Was this furniture, or equipment, to replace furniture, or equipment, that had been sold?
3.	If so, in what places?



TOURISTS-FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO PROVINCES FOR HIGHWAYS

Mr. MURPHY:: 1.	Has the government contributed to the construction of highways in any province to promote the tourist industry?
2.	If so, to what provinces and what amount to each?



GRAIN SHIPMENTS VIA HUDSON BAY AND ' GREAT LAKES

Mr. McLURE:: 1.	What quantity of grains, namely, oats,
barley, et cetera, were shipped by boat from Fort Churchill to various destinations during the past year?	.
2.	What are the freight rates on the different grains from Fort Churchill, also the rates from the head of the lakes, and from Montreal to maritime points, such as Halifax, Saint John, Charlottetown?
3.	How loug in the year is Fort Churchill open for water transportation and is there much *difficulty experienced with ice conditions?
4.	Could the elevators at Halifax and Saint John be utilized for grain storage of coarse grains for domestic purposes in the maritimes?
5.	Would lake boats or barges be suitable for transporting coarse grains to Charlottetown?



FEDERAL PROPERTIES IN CHARLOTTETOWN

Mr. McLURE:: 1.	How many federal building properties are in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island?
2.	What departments of the service are said buildings occupied by?
3.	How many properties are under rent or lease to the federal government in Charlottetown ?
4.	What departments are occupants of such rental properties?
5.	What are the annual or monthly rentals?
G. Who are the owners of these properties?



YUKON TERRITORY-INCOME TAX AND SUCCESSION DUTIES

Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: 1. Did Yukon territory surrender to the government of Canada or to any department thereof, the right to collect (a) income taxation; (b) succession duties?
{Mr. Pouliot.l
2.	If so, on what date in each case?
3.	On what terms was such surrender made?
4.	What, if anything, lias Yukon received from the government of Canada in consideration of surrendering said sources of territorial revenue, and at what dates?



LAMBTON COUNTY FEDERAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES

Mr. MURPHY:: What are the names, positions and -salaries of all federal government employees in the county of Lambton, other than postal employees at Sarnia and customs and immigration officers at Sarnia and Point Edward?



FEDERAL SEED RELIEF

Mr. McCUAIG:: 1.	What was the total cost of federal seed and relief, 1914-20, inclusive?
2.	How much principal (a) has been repaid; (b) has been cancelled; (c) is outstanding at this date?
3.	How much interest (a) has been repaid; (b) has been cancelled; (c) is outstanding at this date?
4.	When were the last official notices to pay up sent to the recipients of this seed and relief?
5.	How many of such original recipients are still living on the land in Saskatchewan against which this relief was filed?
6.	What are the main- districts in Saskatchewan against which this relief is outstanding?
7.	What is the cost to the federal treasury of keeping open this old account for seed and relief (a) total since the beginning; (b) amount, year by year since the beginning.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


John Bracken: For a copy of all communications dated since January 1, 1946, between the government of Canada and the government of the United Kingdom or the government of New Zealand regarding the importation of New Zealand butter into Canada.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The original negotiations in this connection were conducted in a series of meetings held in London between the United Kingdom authorities and the high commissioners of Canada, Australia and New Zealand, and are not contained in any documents; but the nature of the subject matter of these discussions is made clear in a memorandum on the Canadian butter position which was communicated as an aide memoire, and which I will be tabling with the subsequent documents, as we have now obtained the consent of the other governments that this be done.

Motions jor Papers



AIRWAYS POST OFFICES IN ALBERTA

Robert Fair: For a copy of all correspondence from January 1, 1940, to date, exchanged between the Post Office department and any parties interested in the transfers of the airways post offices in Alberta.



CAPITAL ASSISTANCE TO PRIVATE FIRMS

Mr. HATFIELD:: For a statement showing the total amount paid, since September 1, 1939, by the government of Canada or any of its agencies by way of capital assistance to private firms, the statement to show the firms to which assistance granted and the total amount granted to each firm.


George James McIlraith: This notice of motion was dealt with on a previous occasion, with the understanding that it would stand until a motion of the leader of the opposition had been dealt with and an answer tabled in the house. Therefore I ask that this motion stand.
Motion stands.



DEFENCE OF CANADA REGULATIONS-CIVIL LIBERTIES LEAGUE

Jean-François Pouliot: For a copy of all telegrams, letters, memoranda. and petitions from the Civil Liberties League to the government (a) protesting against the prosecution of Lt.-Col. George Alexander Drew and Mr. Rene Chaloult for alleged violations of the Defence of Canada regulations; (b) for the release of any person detained by virtue of order in council P.C. 6444 of October
6.	1945.-or any other subsequent order in council relating to espionage or any violation of the Official Secrets Act,-and to protest against such orders in council; and (c) for an amnesty to X.R.M.A. men from V-E day, 1945.



DEFENCE OF CANADA REGULATIONS-CENSORS OF PRESS PUBLICATIONS

Jean-François Pouliot: For a copy of letters or memoranda front the chief censors of Publications (press) reporting alleged violations of the Defence of Canada regulation.? during world war II by members of the Ottawa press gallery. Lt.-Col. George Alexander Drew and Mr. Rene Chaloult.
Mr. ST. LAtTRENT: I have to ask the hon. member if he will consent to drop this motion. If there are communications in that regard they would be confidential communications by the censors to the minister responsible for censorship during the war. What happened was that papers were accumulating in many departments in such volume that a committee was set up to determine which could be destroyed and not require room for housing, and which should be preserved. With respect to the censorship papers the decision was that four copies of a complete narrative
with exhibits be prepared, one to be deposited with the Department of National Defence, the second with the Department of External Affairs, the third with the Privy Council and the fourth to remain with the records of the directorate. Subsequently instructions were given to the censors by the committee that these records of the directorate of censorship which had been selected for preservation, together with one copy of the completed narrative, excluding exhibits, be placed in sealed containers and handed over to the Undersecretary of State for External Affairs for continuing custody. All the remaining records were placed in nine filing cabinets, which were also handed over on February 22, 1946 to the Department of External Affairs with this completed narrative.
I understand the practice in other countries is not to destroy such papers, which may at some later date have an historical value, but that the practice is that for a period of ten years at least they are not disclosed. I have not looked at the narrative nor at the files which were transferred to the Department of External Affairs. I am not in a position to say whether or not there are any memoranda referring to the matter described in the motion, but even if there were they would be in the form of confidential reports by an officer to his minister or information to the minister given for the purpose of having the minister take such action as he would be prepared to assume responsibility for. They are not documents which are usually tabled.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank the right hon. gentleman for the explanation which he has given. I gladly comply with his request and I hope that the past will be distant enough in the near future to become history so that we shall know what is in these documents.



TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES-CARRIAGE OF MAILS

Mr. MENARY:: For a copy of all contracts, or other agreements with Trans-Canada Air Lines for the carriage of air mail.



ATOMIC ENERGY-REPORTS OF CANADIAN REPRESENTATIVES ON CONTROL COMMISSION

Lewis Menary: For a copy of all reports made to the government by the Canadian representatives on the atomic control commission.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I would ask the hon. member to allow this to stand. I told him the other day that I intended to make a statement in the form of a report on the atomic energy commission. One had been prepared, but events of the last few days have been such
Motions for Papers

that it is no longer up to date and it will have to be rewritten. I hope that will be done shortly.
Motion stands.



FEDERAL DISTRICT-DEVELOPMENT OF NATIONAL CAPITAL

Mr. BOUCHER:: For a copy of all reports made to the government, since September 1, 1945, by Mr. Jacques Greber, regarding the development or beautification of the city of Ottawa and adjacent territory.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend asks that preliminary reports by Mr. Greber on the development and improvement of Ottawa be produced. I need only point out that if that were done, speculators would immediately begin to interest themselves in the projects that were set forth, in a manner which might prejudice the whole development later on. I trust that in the circumstances he will not ask for the disclosure at this stage of any of the reports.


George Russell Boucher: I do not insist upon such reports as might involve the danger the Prime Minister suggests, but there should be reports covering the general scheme which could very well be tabled without divulging exact locations of interest to speculators.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If I mistake not, I did table a report containing Mr. Greber's plans in a general way. However, I will look into the matter further and if there is anything that can be given, not likely to prejudice the scheme, I shall be glad to have it tabled.


Major James William Coldwell: I suggest it might be well to consider freezing the prices of all properties before these reports are brought down so that speculators would not benefit.
Motion dropped.


George Russell Boucher: For a copy of all letters or other communications dated since January 1, 1945, exchanged between the Prime Minister or any official of his staff, the Minister of Public Works or any official of his department including Mr. Jacques Greber, the Minister of Finance or any official of his department, and the mayor or any official of the cities of Ottawa and'Hull on the subject of the national capital beautification and development.



HALIFAX DOCKYARD-LAYOFF OF CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES

Gordon Benjamin Isnor: For a copy of all correspondence from January 15, 1947, to date exchanged between the Minister of National Defence, or officials of that department, and any other party relating to the proposed layoff of civilian employees at the H.M.C. dockyard, Halifax.
[Mr. St. Laurent.1



JAPANESE-FISHING LICENCES, B.C. COAST

Mr. REID:: For a copy of all correspondence ineluding telegrams, and other documents addressed to the Minister of Fisheries or any of his officials, from individuals, companies or their representatives, representatives of any organizations, or of provincial governments on behalf of any Japanese with the view of their being granted licences to allow them to engage in the fishing industry on the coastal waters of British Columbia.


Hedley Francis Gregory Bridges: It will be noted that the motion makes no reference to any date or time. If it is agreeable to the hon. member, I suggest that the time be limited to the period since January 1, 1946, in which event there will be no objection to the motion carrying.


Thomas Reid: That is agreeable.


James Horace King: The motion as amended is carried.



PRINTING BUREAU-PRINTING TRADES WORKERS

Mr. KNOWLES:: For a return showing (a) a copy of all civil service advertisements since January 1, 1944, for printing trades workers for the government printing bureau at Ottawa; (b) the names of all those who have applied for positions at the said bureau and/or entered civil service competitions for the same since January 1, 1944; (c) the number and dates of said competitions held since January 1, 1944, together with the names of applicants rejected and the names of applicants employed by the bureau following each competition, with the weekly wage rate in each case; (d) the number of vacancies in printing trades at the bureau and the number of applicants for positions on file as at January 1, 1944; July 1, 1944; January 1, 1945; July 1, 1945: January 1. 1946; April 1. 1946; July 1, 1946; October 1, 1946; January 1, 1947.



RAILWAY MAIL CONTRACTS

Mr. JAENICKE:: For a copy of all contracts with Canadian National Railways, Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and any other railway company for the carrying of His Majesty's mail in Canada?



DOMINION COAL COMPANY-CONTRACT RESPECTING PAYMENT OF LOSSES

Mr. GILLIS:: For a copy of the contract between the federal government and the Dominion Coal Company under which the losses of that company are paid by the federal government.


Clarence Decatur Howe: On examination I find that the agreement with the Dominion Coal Company is covered by a series of orders in council. There is no formal agreement but I shall be glad to table the orders in council.
Motion carried.

Motions jor Papers



WITHDRAWAL OF OCCUPATIONAL FORCES FROM EUROPE

Mr. PEARKES:: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, and other documents exchanged between the government of Canada, and the government of Great Britain, or any members or officials thereof relative to the withdrawal of the Canadian occupational forces from Europe.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This motion is in similar terms to that which, was made by the hon. member for Nanaimo during the last session. It came up for consideration on April
8.	At the time, I felt obliged to point out that correspondence of the kind was, according to long-standing precedent, privileged. I asked the hon. member not to press for it, because it would not be possible to meet his wishes. To the motion as it stands on today's order paper I would have to make a similar reply.
Correspondence betiveen governments if of a secret or confidential nature, is not normally made public unless the consent of all the governments concerned has first been asked and obtained. Apart from this, it is the practice for the governments of the nations of the British commonwealth to communicate with one another freely and frankly on all questions of common concern. Such communications are not in general intended to be made public. To create a precedent under which communications of this character were made public in little more than a year after they were written, might inhibit in future full and frank communications between the governments of nations of the British, commonwealth. It is therefore the view of the Canadian government that it would not be in the public interest to table, at the present time, the correspondence between the Canadian and the United Kingdom governments on the withdrawal of Canadian occupational forces from Europe.
Having said this much, I hasten to add that in bringing forward this motion a year ago, the hon. member stated in reply to what I had then said:
If the Prime Minister is unable to produce all the papers, perhaps he could produce sufficient to clear up the matter, or he may be prepared to make a statement with regard to the reasons behind the withdrawal of this force.
To this I replied that I had no doubt the matter would come up when the minister of defence would be dealing w'ith his estimates or at some other appropriate moment; that I knew the minister would be only too ready to make a statement at that time.
I was absent in the United Kingdom when the defence estimates were being discussed in the house and unable, therefore, to say just how far statements made by the minister at the time may have covered the matter to the satisfaction of my hon. friend.
May I say that the request of the hon. member, in asking, if the Prime Minister was unable to produce all the papers, perhaps he could produce sufficient to clear up the matter, or might be prepared to make a statement with regard to the reasons behind the withdrawal of this force, seems to me a wholly reasonable one, and had) I been in the house when the defence estimates were before the house a year ago, I wouldi have been prepared to make the statement requested. The government has every reason for desiring that the facts be known and understood.
In the expectation that my hon. friend would be prepared to take the same attitude today as he did a year ago, I have endeavoured to meet his wishes by preparing a statement with regard to the reasons behind the withdrawal of the force. The statement is based on the communications exchanged between our government and the government of the United Kingdom and will, I believe, without creating a precedent which might inhibit in future full and frank communications between the governments of nations of the British commonwealth, meet in full the request for the reasons relative to the withdrawal of the Canadian army occupational forces from Germany.
The question of the provision of Canadian forces for occupational duty in Germany, after the defeat of Germany had been achieved, was one which was given very careful consideration over a considerable period of time. As a matter of fact, the matter was referred to in several telegrams between the governments of the United Kingdom and Canada over a period of a year and a half prior to January, 1945. It was also discussed with Mr. Churchill and the United Kingdom chiefs of staff on the occasion of the Quebec conference in September, 1944. There were further consultations through service channels.
On January 9, 1945, the United Kingdom government was informed that our government had decided to provide, for a period yet to be determined:, one army occupational group of approximately 25,000 all ranks for duty within the British zone of occupation in Germany and eleven R.C.A.F. squadrons to be stationed partly in Germany and partly in the United Kingdom.
At the time of sending this word, however, the government of the United Kingdom was informed that there were some over-all con-
Motions jor Papers

siderations of policy which the Canadian government felt should be communicated intergovernmentally.
In this connection I quote the following from the communication sent the British government:
We hold most firmly to the view that, upon the cessation of hostilities with Germany, Canadian forces should be repatriated from the European theatres as quickly as circumstances will permit. A noticeable number of our troops are now in their sixth year of service overseas. A considerable proportion have now served three years abroad. In any event, the average length of overseas service of Canadian forces must be considerably higher than that of the United States forces. Consequently when fighting against Germany has ended there will be a natural and insistent demand here in Canada, as well as amongst our troops abroad, that they should be brought home in the shortest possible time and certainly with no less despatch than that with which American forces will be returned to the United States.
You are well aware that the difficult problem of sea transportation will continue for a considerable time after the defeat of Germany and that the early repatriation of all our forces, no matter how much this will be desired, will not be possible of achievement. Nevertheless, we must say that it would be both unwise on our part, and misleading to you, were we, at this stage, definitely to undertake to furnish occupational forces for the whole period of military control in Germany.
In these circumstances we take the view that our present decision should be reviewed towards the end of the next fiscal year, i.e., prior to 3.1st March, 1946. By that time much that is now hypothetical should be clearer. We should by then be better able to assess the length of the period of full military control of Germany, the strength of occupational forces which can be provided by our European allies, and the requirements of the Japanese war for manpower and shipping. It is uncertain, moreover, for how long after the fighting ends it will be politically possible to provide Canadian occupation forces in view of the fact that the plans for the control of Germany give the Canadian government no voice in the direction of policy.
It will be noted that this communication was sent in January, 1945-over four months before the war with Germany had ended'-and before questions of procedure and representation in the making of treaties of peace had been finally determined.
In December, 1945, the Canadian government. referring to the statement made in January of that year, namely that it would be necessary' for us to review before the end of that fiscal .year the Canadian commitment to provide one army occupational group of approximately 25,000 and eleven R.C.A.F. squadrons, made representations as follows to the government of the United Kingdom:
The cabinet have now given careful consideration to full reports on the subject submitted by our chiefs of staff. These reports have empha-

sized the serious administrative problems that are involved in maintaining comparatively small forces at so great a distance from Canada.
On the basis of the shipping estimated as likely to be available, it is now probable that the Canadian army overseas, except for the occupation force and administrative staffs, will have been repatriated to Canada by March or April of next year. Until this movement is completed the occupation force can be maintained at full strength without substantial departure from established repatriation priorities and without encountering serious problems with respect to replacements. After that time, however, the retention in Europe of the whole occupation force would create administrative difficulties out of all proportion to the numbers involved. We would, furthermore, expect that by then some of the European allies should be in a position to make a larger contribution to the forces which will continue to be required in the British zone in Germany.
The government have, therefore, decided that, beginning in April next, the Canadian Army occupation force should be progressively reduced on a schedule which would provide for its withdrawal by stages with the object of completing movements from the continent before the end of next summer and repatriating all Canadian Army personnel now overseas by the autumn of 1946.
Accordingly, the staff have been instructed to proceed with plans for the movement of the occupation force to Canada via the United Kingdom and to work out these arrangements in such a way as to permit of the orderly release of Canadian formations in consultation with United Kingdom military authorities.


John Bracken: Will the Prime Minister give us the date on which that last communication was forwarded?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: December, 1945. On January 3, 1946, the Canadian government was requested by the United Kingdom government to reconsider this decision on the ground that the withdrawal of the Canadian forces would inevitably result in the retention of an extra number of forces from the United Kingdom. It was also pointed out that when Canada had withdrawn her forces, the United Kingdom would still have a number of men serving in Germany who would have had as much as five years service.
It was suggested that Canada should keep a Canadian division and elements of the Royal Canadian Air Force in Europe at least until after the spring of 1947.
In his message, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom stated that it was recognized that this suggestion would present considerable difficulties for us but it was well that both governments should not hesitate in making known all aspects of their respective situations.
In reply to his communication of January 3, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom was informed that our government would not be able to modify the decisions about the withdrawal of the Canadian occu-

Inquiries of the Ministry
pational forces as previously communicated. It was pointed out that these decisions had been reached by the full cabinet after a close review of the problems involved in maintaining a Canadian force in Germany after March 31, 1946.
It will be recalled that at that time, namely January of last year, the Right Hon. Mr. St. Laurent, the Right Hon. Mr. Gardiner, the Hon. Mr. Martin and officials of the Canadian government were in London attending the inaugural meeting of the United Nations Assembly. The Hon. Mr. Gibson was also in London on other business.
On January 22 a meeting was held between the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and Mr. St. Laurent and his ministerial colleagues at which the question of occupational forces was fully discussed. A verbal report of this meeting was later given to the cabinet.
On February 13. 1946. the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom was informed that the Canadian government had again reviewed the position of the Canadian contingent in the United Kingdom occupational forces in Germany, having in mind the considerations which were put. forward at the meeting between himself, Mr. St. Laurent and other Canadian ministers who were in London, in January; that, in all the circumstances, we could see no alternative to the course of action communicated in our message of December the 8th, 1915, and confirmed in a message of January the 14th. 1946.
In view of this decision, an announcement became urgent.
The following is the text of the public statement as made on February 15, 1946:
The Prime Minister, Mr. Mackenzie King, announced today that the withdrawal from Germany of the Canadian troops in the occupation army would begin early in April and that, with the present shipping forecast, all troops now in Germany should be back in Canada by September or October.
In making the announcement, Mr. King recalled a statement he had made in the House of Commons on April 4 of last year in which he indicated that from time to time, as considerations of safety and security permitted, reductions would be made in the size of the occupation forces.
At the outset. Canadian participation in the occupation of Germany was a natural development from our participation in the military operations in northwest Europe. Unlike the United Kingdom, the United States, the Soviet Union and France, Canada is not one of the occupying powers and is not a member of the allied control commission. The Canadian contingent has consisted only of one division with ancillary troops in the British occupational zone.
Certain of the other European allies which were not in a position to supply contingents at
the beginning of the occupation are now becoming increasingly able to share in occupation duties.
Now that the greater part of the Canadian army has been repatriated, the maintenance of a small occupation force thousands of miles from home has become increasingly difficult. Aside from grave difficulties in certain aspects of administration, the overhead required to provide headquarters, services, amenities, etc., for the Canadian force is inevitably quite out of proportion to its size.
As has been previously announced, one squadron of the R.C.A.F. will be withdrawn from the occupational force at the end of March, 4946, and the remaining squadrons will be withdrawn on the 30tli June. If satisfactory arrangements can be made, they may be withdrawn prior to that date.
The statement I have made today is, I believe, a true and full presentation of all essential features of this matter, and will, I hope, give to hon. members the information desired.


George Randolph Pearkes: I appreciate the full and frank statement the Prime Minister has now given the house on this matter. I shall therefore be pleased to withdraw or to have dropped the motion for papers, which I agree is similar to one I placed on the order paper a year ago, but which was prompted by statements made in the house last week which seemed to be at variance with previous statements.


Mr. GREEN:: Not much indication of "kicking out" in that statement.
Million dropped.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day are called I should like to ask a question which the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson) had intended to ask of the Minister of Fisheries. The hon. member has been called from the chamber for a few moments. In view' of the probability of large quantities of fish from the fresh water lakes in Canada spoiling unless action is taken immediately by the dominion government, will the minister make a statement as to the prospects of the creation of a board under the Fisheries Prices Support Act.
Hon. II. F. G. BRIDGES (Minister of Fisheries): Mr. Speaker, in order to review the current situation in the fresh water fish trade to which the hon. member refers, the chief economist of this department is at present making a survey in the prairie provinces. He
Inquiries: oj the Ministry

has been discussing conditions with members of the trade and with government officials in the three prairie provinces, and his inquiry will be completed within another week or ten days, after which he will report his findings to me.
This appraisal of current conditions must not be taken to mean that the fisheries prices support board can be established in the next few weeks, or that if it were established, it would necessarily recommend specific action in this instance. Meanwhile I can make no further comment until I have an appraisal of the current situation respecting the freshwater fish trade in the prairie provinces.



BRITISH COLUMBIA-REDUCED FISH PRICES AND INCREASED COST OF GEAR

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. G. ARCHIBALD (Skeena):: I should like to ask the Minister of Fisheries a question of which I have not been able to give him notice. However, he can take this as notice. It arises out of a telegram I received from the united fishermen and allied workers union dealing with the fall in the price of fish and the rise in the cost of the fishing gear which places these fishermen rather in a jam. I should like to ask whether the government is considering placing certain classes of fish under the supervision of the prices support board.


Hedley Francis Gregory Bridges: I received no notice of this question. There is nothing to add to what I have said already concerning this. Just before the house met I received a similar wire to that referred to by the hon. member, but I cannot say anything more at the present, time.



PROPORTION OF INCREASED PRICE PAYABLE TO

[Stage Direction]
.	PRIMARY PRODUCER
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. 0. WHITE (Middlesex East): Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Agriculture indicate to the house what proportion, if any, of the two-dollar increase for bacon, effective January 13, is being paid to hog producers?
James Garfield Gardiner: I do not think it would be possible on the spur of the moment, or even after consideration, to give what could be called an exact answer to the question that has been asked. The situation existing at one point in Canada may be quite different from that at another. I would say however that practically all the two-dollar increase has been passed on to the producer. There might be

some slight allowance because of increased cost brought about partly by increased wages put upon packing plants during the period just prior to bringing into effect the new two-dollar increase. But practically all the increase has been passed on to the producer.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply. Has a request been received by the minister from the city of Vancouver asking the government's assistance in the purchase by the city of some 1,600 complete houses available at Bremerton in the State of Washington? If such a request has been received, is the minister able at this time to state the attitude of the government in the matter?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The answer to the first question is yes. The Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation are investigating the Bremerton houses. The information we have at the present time is that they are suitable for emergency shelter but not for permanent homes. If that information proves to be correct, the government will qualify these houses for grant under the emergency shelter legislation. That would be perhaps a fifty per cent grant, with a provision that the city would provide the property required, and manage the emergency units.
Unless, however, the information we have is quite wrong, these houses would not qualify for loans as permanent houses. In other words we think they may be suitable for emergency shelter and, if so we would be willing to give all possible assistance to the city to that end, and consider whether we could give a grant to move them to Canada as emergency shelter.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Labour. In view of the further representations which have been made for the continuance of the Canadian veterans' training school prematriculation course at Prince Albert until the completion of the course in June, has the government given consideration to permitting continuance beyond March 15?


Humphrey Mitchell: It has been extended to April 15.

Inquiries of the Ministry



COARSE GRAINS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. E. WRIGHT (Melfort):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture. This is now March 10, and we have not had a word from the government with respect to its coarse grains policy. Seeding in western Canada will commence within twenty to thirty days. Can the minister give us any indication as to when we may expect an announcement from the government respecting coarse grains and flax prices for the coming year?


James Garfield Gardiner: I am hoping we will be able to give it some time during this week,



THE KING'S BIRTHDAY TO BE CELEBRATED IN CANADA ON JUNE 9

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Some days ago the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Lockhart) asked about the date on which the king's birthday would be celebrated in Canada. The reason for the delay in answering his question was the desire to ascertain His Majesty's wishes in the matter. The government had thought that Monday, June 9, would be the best date, and His Majesty is agreeable to that. Therefore the ninth day of June will be fixed for the celebration of the king's birthday in Canada.



PRIVILEGE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. SOLON E. LOW (Peace River): Mr. Speaker, I rise cn a question of personal privilege. On Saturday night last the gentlemen of the press gallery held their annual dinner in this building. My complaint is not that they did so. and that they had a good time; it is that I was not able to be there. I received an invitation, which I appreciated, and up until the last minute I thought I would be able to attend, but matters arose over which I had no control and I was not able to be there. For this I should blame either the Canadian Pacific Railway, or the Minister of Labour, or both. I was not notified that I was to be one of the speakers at the dinner, but I understand that the hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Smith) took my place.
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: And he made a very good job of it.


Mr. LOW:: I understand he did a very creditable job.


Mr. MARTIN:: He understood social credit.


Solon Earl Low: I feel sure that any similarity between the doctrines of social credit and the doctrines expounded by my hon. friend in his excellent address on Saturday night is purely coincidental. I want to thank my hon. friend most earnestly for turning in and doing such a wonderful job. He certainly endeared himself further to the members of this house by that splendid and generous act.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. GORDON C.RAYDOX (Peel):	I
should like to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs if it is the intention of the government to refer the estimates of the Department of External Affairs to the standing committee on external affairs, as was done before.
Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Secretary of State for External Affairs): No decision has been arrived at as yet. I will probably seek the privilege of appearing before the committee on external affairs, and ascertain what their views may be before having any decision made in that regard.
Gordon Graydon: If the decision is to send the estimates to the standing committee, I do hope that Your Honour will see that members of the house are not blocked from asking questions about, external affairs as they have been this afternoon in connection with other questions.



GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, March 7, consideration of the motion of Mr. J. W. MacNaught for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Bracken, and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Low.
Mr. PIERRE GAUTHIER (Portneuf) (Translation):: Mr. Speaker, a philosophical
principle states that the repetition of an act creates a habit. We all rejoice over the Prime Minister's recovery and we are all glad to see him back in his seat in the house, but we
The Aildress-Mr. P. Gauthier

are not surprised because he is used to defeating his opponents. We have no doubt that with such good training he will also gain the next victory. It is also fitting that I should congratulate the mover (Mr. MacNaught) and the seconder (Mr. Cournoyer) of the address. That will suffice as far as congratulations are concerned because, in my opinion, praise like precious stones is valuable when scarce.
I take the opportunity offered by eight paragraphs of the speech from the throne to discuss the question of external affairs during the present debate. Canada's position among the other nations, the work of her delegates at the united nations organization and her attitude in dealing with the important problems which are constantly increasing in number, especially in Europe, are all matters whose importance should not escape the notice of Canadians.
The time limit imposed upon me by the rules of the house will barely permit me to touch lightly on the important matter of treaties which have or will be signed; it is fortunate that it be so, because my knowledge of those extremely difficult matters does not enable me to expand on them.
I have no intention of creating any discord, but I cannot refrain from deploring the attitude of those nations which have taken the name of "The Big Four", towards the other nations they condescend to call the smaller nations.
These smaller nations include Belgium, whose people in both world wars were downtrodden and massacred; Australia whose brave soldiers were fighting in Europe and in Africa before and while their own country was being bombed and invaded; Canada, which, in addition to the large establishments of her three services, kept abreast of the industrial production of the Big Four and fed millions of needy persons. In August, 1946, Canada had contributed 325 million dollars to the world's bank; France, with a population of 39 million, contributed 450 million dollars; the United Kingdom, one billion 300 million dollars, and the United States 2 billion 175 million dollars. Russia, the most outspoken of the Big Four, had not made any contribution. In addition, our country was one of the first to subscribe to UNRRA. Is not the term "smaller" nation ridiculous to every Canadian?
In my opinion the first mistake committed following the end of the second world war was the exclusion of smaller nations from the peace conference and from the signing of peace treaties. All the members of the house and the whole country have supported the protests voiced by the Canadian government. 
Were we not entitled to more consideration from the United States, France and England after our tremendous contribution to the war which has just ended? Are we to understand that we are farther removed from Europe when it comes to sharing parleys for the restoration of world order, than we are when European countries need our money, our industrial products and our help? The great nations of Europe could well have heeded the advice of our statesmen. During and just after the last war, when this country contributed so generously to the relief of the afflicted and the displaced, those great countries could have been taught that charity begins at home. These would have been counsels of frankness, first, and of disinterestedness.
In paragraph 9 of the Canadian government's statement concerning the peace settlement with Germany, as read in the house on January 30, 1947, we read the following:
The political and psychological defects of the treaty procedure adopted at Versailles in 1919 have long been recognized.
I would add that the procedure adopted for the signing of a treaty with Germany was not better in the case of the other countries. Jouvenel, in his book entitled "From One War to the Next", very aptly describes the atmosphere of the times. In those days the big four were Wilson, Clemenceau, Lloyd George and Orlando. Today Molotov has replaced Orlando. The cake has been cut and the pieces are being handed out according to the will of this council of world ministers. I would say that the situation is even worse for, instead of a representative of a Latin country (strange is it not that a Latin nation should always get the worst of the bargain), we have the representative of a brand of imperialism which no longer has any regard for others, whose arrogance is boundless and whose lack of frankness is glaring. I am not indulging in any vagary when I talk of Russia and the soviet; I am stating facts and actions that belong to the present and not to the past.
In 1918 Foch had requested that the natural barrier between Germany and France, represented by the Rhine river, be closed. He repeated his request on January 10, 1919, before the opening of the peace conference. His argument, although very simple, was most logical. On the east short of the Rhine, he said, from 64 to 75 million Germans, united by common language, culture and philosophy, may congregate at a moment's notice; while on the western shore, 49 million people only are in a position to oppose them. Heroic Belgium is as much interested in these demands as France herself. What will the Big Four do when France insists on this

The Address-Mr. P. Gauthier
natural frontier-if its present leaders are as far-sighter as Foch was-when, besides requesting the establishment of this natural frontier, she asks for the Saar? At this moment, she has long been denied this privilege of an essential nature. In an editorial I read yesterday, signed by Edouard Herriot and published in the Standard, it is stated that none of the big four has yet taken a definite stand on the matter. According to Herriot, however, it seems that Great Britain is ready to allot the Saar to France. Belgium, being among the small nations, could undoubtedly not speak with enough authority to be heard that far. In the so-called small countries, are not great men as numerous, if not more so, than elsewhere? Would the friendship of the United States have been secured without the pre-eminent part played by the Prime Minister of Canada?
In section 15 of the Canadian propositions Foch's ideas are apparent, as far as the German ethnical group is concerned. The following excerpt is even more significant:
The German people have clearly indicated that their experience in the line of autonomous democratic government is not yet sufficient to prevent a centralized state from becoming an instrument of despotism and armed aggression.
May I add that, owing to their peculiar philosophy, based on race superiority, a theory which was imported and implanted by a renegade named Stuart Chamberlain, the Germans will not readily give up their desires, because they are eternal: philosophical ideas do not die; if, at times they seem to disappear, it is only to better readapt themselves. Nazism and fascism are not dead; we have read in the papers about plots discovered very recently in occupied Germany and Austria. And the Italian fascist party comprises already over 300,000 members. The government adds, in the middle of that same paragraph:
For this reason, the German state should be federal in character and not Unitarian. The decentralization of Germany by federalism may become effective and acceptable especially if realized on an economic, as well as on a political basis.
How can the opponents of the Minister of External Affairs (Mr. St. Laurent) accuse him of being a centralist?
But will the "Big" nations be loathe to consider this suggestion of a small country in which is found, after all, so much foresight, an indication of a profound sense of Europe's economic and political history?
Mr. Speaker, treaties have something else besides defects; some qualities at times become apparent and they can be made to benefit mankind on the distinct condition that they
be not neutralized by the egotism of the great powers, by financial intrigues or by any sectarian hatred. The nations which signed the treaty of Versailles may have been well-intentioned, and other results might have been obtained had not economic interests operated at once against the reasonable claims of some nations. Between the two Great Wars, eighteen conflicts have occurred in the world; they were more or less important, and represented, as it were, fixation abscesses for the draining of the war machine. It is true that treaties have not yet been signed, but fighting is still going on in China, in Indonesia and even in Greece.
As in 1919, there is some talk about reparations. Who shall pay and who shall receive? In 1871, France paid $5,000,000,000 to Germany. In 1919, how much did Germany pay to France and why did she not pay? History clearly shows that the vanquished Germans achieved a victory in the economic field over all their erstwhile enemies, who, at that time, for some reason or other, either concluded that Germany was on the brink of bankruptcy or did not wish to strengthen France too rapidly. We would be blind if we did not perceive the fact that at least three imperialisms are facing each other today. I forgot to say, Mr. Speaker, that in 1919 Soviet imperialism was marking time, because the Soviet revolution had not yet been liquidated; White Russia remained a stumbling block until the day when Stalin, who lacked military experience, but had a keen mind, was made head of the Soviet armies, with the result we know. I do not mention French imperialism, which is merely attempting a revival. British imperialism is now undergoing serious difficulties as we were reminded the other night by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) when he mentioned that Great Britain was calling for the help of the United States in Greece. Should this continue, the Socialists will have as a wonderful achievement the liquidation of the Empire.
I believe that the British people would have been well advised to leave Mr. Churchill and Mr. Eden at the head of their government. The United States and Canada have shown better judgment in keeping in power their present leaders. The British Socialist government received a warning from Mr. Churchill at the time it withdrew its forces from Egypt. The British statesman could already then visualize the Soviet's intentions of encroaching upon the Straits and the Middle East.
During the war, American imperialism has progressed by leaps and bounds but in the
The Address-Mr. P. Gauthier

future it will have to muster all its resources in order to survive against the hard-pressing imperialism of the Soviets. I say, Mr. Speaker, that if they are to have an intelligent and consistent policy, all imperialistic countries that have accepted commitments during the war will have to rely on the protection of their armed forces. I am not a supporter of imperialism but since the world, nowadays, must admit its existence, I feel that democratic imperialism must be strong enough to resist the other kind, which aims at destroying the present regime. The most dangerous brand of imperialism is that which is combined, at the economic level, with ideological imperialism.
At the root of world wars, there is a cause, a special one which everyone knows: petroleum. During the last war and ever since it has ended, the big powers have had this matter in mind. I quote the findings of a report tabled in the United States Senate by a special committee which investigated the petroleum resources of the world. The United States have a production capacity of 37 billion barrels; British and Dutch interests, 17 billion barrels; Soviet interests, almost 6 billion barrels; other nations, small and middlesized, 7-8 billions. Obviously, three of the Big Four control the output of petroleum. If a small nation discovers petroleum underground, the big powers immediately seize this mineral product not directly, by government intervention, but through their financiers who hasten to take over those resources. Even with Roumanian wells under her control, Soviet Russia does not yet equal the production of her two rivals, but she brings great care to the expansion of her possessions. The mineral oil found in the Middle East is a cause of turmoil among the big powers and might bring about war in that area, located partly in Africa and partly in Asia. More than half the petrroleum reserves of the world lie in *this distant land which also includes southeastern Russia.
Last year's output in the Middle East reached 365 million barrels. British interests come first, then American and finally French and Dutch. According to newspaper reports, France is claiming new concessions in Irak. Russia, though last to arrive on the scene, has already acquired concessions in northern Iran, thus increasing the considerable output she derives from the Baku fields, which represent 90 per cent of the Soviet Union's petroleum producing resources.
While the great powers are struggling for the possession of the world's petroleum supplies and the establishment of their trade,

they will have to settle the fate of Germany and Austria, a country surrounded by Soviet satellites: Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia. As everywhere else, the Soviets organize before departing. The Allies seem to have secured free navigation on the Danube, a river crossing those countries and the northeastern part of Austria. Under pretext of reparations payments, machines and raw materials have been taken away and have immediately found their way to Russia. The Potsdam agreements do not list the various German and Austrian firms, although they provide that German property will be divided among the occupying powers. For the Soviets, the Austrian properties operated by Germans during occupation are German and must therefore be removed. The Austrian legislature passed an act to nationalize industries previously seized by the nazis, but the Soviet occupation authorities rendered it inoperative. According to President Karl Remner, economic life in Austria cannot be restored without the petroleum and the mechanized industries of eastern Austria. Furthermore, agricultural production has been reduced by half, in this country, by the nazis, in favour of war industries. Then Yugoslavia demands reparations to the tune of 11 billions from Germany and Austria. This will be an interesting problem to solve if Soviet imperialism forces England and the United States to yield. Perhaps, the Big Four may be in need of advice from the smaller nations in matters of this sort.
Let us revert to imperialism. Reparations from the satellites of the axis have been assessed at one billion dollars; the Soviets alone will be getting $100,000,000, over a seven year period from Italy; $300,000,000 in eight years from Roumania; $200,000,000 in eight years from Hungary; $300,000,000 from Finland. Out of a billion dollars, $100,000,000 are left for the others. As our old classics said: Partibus jactis sic locutus est leo.
What are these requests and these demands based on?
Let us cast a glance on the armies of occupation in Europe. The Soviet minister of Foreign Affairs claims that England, France and the United States still have too many soldiers under arms. Here is a table showing the size of the armies of occupation as of October, 1946:
Russia	 1,820.000
750.000	in Germany
70,000	in Austria
250.000	in Poland
750.000	in Hungary

The Address[DOT]-Mr. P. Gauthier
The United States
England	 455,000
350.000	in Germany
15.000	in Austria
40.000	in Greece
50.000	in Italy 381,020
315.000	in Germany
15.000	in Austria
50.000	in Italy 1,020 in Iceland
France	 140,000
110.000	in Germany
30.000	in Austria
And the Russian foreign minister, Mr. Molotov, says that the other nations have too many soldiers under arms in occupied countries.
Last year, in the debate on the loan oi $1,250,000,000 to Britain, my stand differed from the one I had taken during the war on matters pertaining to billions of dollars. I have not changed my mind as regards the gift, nor about the loans at too low a rate of interest. If I endorsed the last loan, it was because I thought it my duty to support the United Kingdom against an imperialism which is now outstripping it and is becoming a menace for America and the world at large. A man whose opinion is more authoritative than mine, Senator Vandenberg, took the same stand in the United States Senate, during the debate on the American loan of four billion dollars to England. At that time, my apprehension was justified; today, my argument is still stronger.
Let us consider the rise of communism in France since 1922. That year, there were
100,000	communists in that country; in 1936, when the party was dissolved, their number had increased to 1,500,000. In 1945, the number stood at 4,886,000. We must, of course, bear in mind the fact that women now vote, which accounts for a quite considerable increase in the number of communists. At the beginning of 1946, they totalled 5,302,046 and in November of the same year, 5,475,965. That is a geometrical progression. However, France is in Europe; some people may say that it is far away, but France is comparatively near Russia.
Let us come back to our hemisphere in order to consider what is happening in Cuba, a very small country. In 1938, 40,000 communists were to be found there; in 1940, 60,000; in 1946, 150,000, so that within six years communist sympathizers increased by
90,000.	As I was saying, that is the situation in a very small country.
I	said at the outset that Germany's cravings were eternal; let us make no mistake about it,
similar hopes are cherished elsewhere. Czarist ambition had spread Russian power, in 1914, up to a line running from Kolberg, in Pomerania, to Fiume, in Austria-Hungary,
city made famous by d'Annunzio. Czarist ambition included European Turkey and the Asiatic shore of the Dardanelles; thus, Russia opened onto the Black sea, which it dominated as well as the Baltic, and reached the Mediterranean. The area included Russia proper, Poland, Finland, the Baltic states and Bessarabia; the Czarist sphere of influence thus spread to Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary. Roumania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Albania.
In 1939, Stalin began, where the czars had left off, the expansion of Russia through the partition of Poland and the acquisition of the Baltic states at Yalta and Potsdam. The western advance was pushed to the Elba, in the north, and as far as Trieste in the south. Incidentally, I cannot help criticizing the action of Mr. Bidault who internationalized that city instead of leaving it to the Italians. My belief is that Trieste will become a second Danzig, a new Polish corridor. Perhaps Mr. Bidault was influenced by the Communist rise in France. One more Latin nation is left in the lurch, or, rather, is sacrificed. Trieste is in the main Italian; barely one third of its population is of Yugoslav extraction. Instead of satellite kingdoms, satellite republics have been set up in central and eastern Europe. The czars would have been content with stationing troops in Pomerania. The Russian army now occupies all of eastern Germany. How will it be evicted? Northern Bukowina and eastern Galicia are integral parts of Russia which now controls more than the Czars ever did. In one important respect, the Soviets have, until now, fallen short of the Czarist plan.
Turkey still has her European territory, even larger than at the time of the czars, the Bosphorus and Dardanelles. However, you have no doubt noticed that Russian ministers do not fail to mention the word "justice" every time they speak of the Bosphorus and Dardanelles, since they want an interest in the East. The Soviet are still claiming a part in the control of those straits. When they succeed they will have attained the aim set by the czars. But the Soviets have spheres of influence which place them in a better position than the czars. Their sphere of influence comprises Poland, which has her own government, acting only in conformity with Soviet Russia's policies, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Roumania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Albania.
The Address-Mr. P. Gauthier

In Asia, the Soviet sphere of influence is strongly felt in Manchuria, Korea, China, Outer Mongolia, Azerbaijan and Transjor-dania. They have taken from Japan the peninsula of Karafuto, and the island of Sakhalin, which possess enormous reserves in lumber and petroleum.
Around Greece, we have the following satellites of Soviet Russia:	Albania, Yugoslavia and Bulgaria. We must not forget the port of Dairen, in Manchuria, which Russia took over in order to protect Soviet interests in Northern China.
Are we not justified in having fears for the future of democracy, even if Tim Buck did not exist? I will go further:	I am not
convinced that we should share the secret of the atomic bomb. The Baruch plan proposes the inspection of uranium deposits; the Soviets have refused to submit to such inspection. According to La Presse of March 6, Mr. Gromyko has expressed, in the security council, Russia's refusal to abandon her veto right even in regard to the control of armaments. This is very significant. Russia refuses to submit her armaments to the inspection of the united nations representatives. Mr. Andrei Gromyko, Russia's delegate, has informed the council as follows:
(1)	Russia will not allow the inspectors of the international control body to roam freely throughout her territory;
This is nothing new; such has been the case since 1917.
(2)	Russia will not allow an international control body to control her atomic research work;
She has also a source of uranium.
(3)	Russia will not renounce her veto right in matters pertaining to atomic energy.
(4)	"It will be difficult, if not impossible" for Russia to accept the international control of atomic energy, irrespective of the form which it might take, unless the United States agree to destroy existing atomic bombs.
It is likely that that last paragraph led Walter Lippman to believe that Russia might know the secret of the atomic bomb. I do not hold that view.
Let us see where the quest for uranium is taking place.
While ten nations have endorsed the United Nations' plan for the control of atomic energy, it has been rejected by Russia and Poland. Why? Most undoubtedly because it provides for the inspection by the United Nations of territories behind the iron curtain. A great Canadian soldier, General McNaughton, who, as everyone knows, is not given to inconsiderate statements, has advised Canada and the United States to keep up their production. Czechoslovakia is actively prospecting for

uranium. In Saxony, Russian geologists have come across uranium deposits in a discarded lead mine, formerly owned by the Germans. Uranium is to be found in the Urals. India has chlorium, used with uranium. There are uranium deposits in Mexico, Canada and the United States. Argentine has placed an embargo on her uranium. The United States have already invested two billions in the plant that turned out the famous bomb. Russia's stockpile of uranium has increased threefold and Great Britain is spending 200 millions on research.
As a handsome gesture, Russia has put forth the honour system, assuring that every nation would keep its pledge not to use atomic energy in war time. But the Briand-Kellogg pact was based on honour, and we have had war just the same.
In closing, Mr. Speaker, I wish my few remarks,-even though they be but the utterances of a modest member in the parliament of a small nation,-were heard by all the democratic governments of the world. When I say democratic governments, I refer to the true democracies. I said a while ago, that philosophies live forever. If the Big Pour are interested in the economic factors, the psychologic and philosophic elements should arrest their attention to an even greater extent. For a certain brand of imperialism, economic warfare is a corollary to ideologic warfare. A country, Turkey has dared to banish the communist party. This gesture has had and will have in the future happy or unhappy consequences according as it will or will not be seconded or copied by the democracies. My opposition to communism does not spring from mere curiosity to follow its developments or to draw attention to my poor person. It springs from the democratic principles in which I have faith and which I would like to see upheld in the world, through far-sightedness, courage, strength and frankness in the various leaders.
I once more take the opportunity of congratulating our government for the practical propositions they put forward in connection with the preparation of peace treaties with Germany and Austria and I thank them on behalf of my constituents, for the wholly Canadian stand taken by the Minister of External Affairs (Mr. St. Laurent) in our relations with the whole universe.
(Text):


George Black: Mr. Speaker, this is a time-honoured debate on the address to be presented in reply to the speech from the throne and the amendments that have been moved to that address. The speech

The Address-Mr. G. Black
from the throne is, in fact, a government statement placed in the hands of the governor general to be read to parliament by His Excellency. The present speech refers to some legislation to be introduced at this session, including old age pensions and readjustment of representation in the House of Commons. As to both these measures, I have something to say, but first I should like to tell the house something of my own constituency, as other members in this debate have told the house of theirs.
The people of Yukon depend entirely on the success of mining for their livelihood. Everything centres on mining. People engaged in merchandising, agriculture, railroading, steamboating, trucking, all manner of transportation; professional people such as lawyers, doctors, nurses, dentists, clergymen; printing houses, aviation, hotels, restaurants, entertainment, government liqour stores, civil servants, could not carry on and could not make that country their home if it were not for the mines producing gold, silver, lead and zinc.
Gold in great quantity was first discovered in Yukon on August 17, 1896, over half a century ago and Yukon's mines are still producing millions.
When the news of that great gold find became known, there was a world stampede to Klondike. People went there from all the countries of the globe, from every province in the dominion and from every state in the union. English, Scotch, Irish, French, Italians, Spaniards, Germans, Australians, New Zealanders, Scandinavians, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans and even East Indians came. Thousands made fortunes, brought them out and, for the most part, settled in Canada and the United1 States. Others failed and came away empty-handed. Many remained to make their homes in that grand north country. It is no overstatement, Mr. Speaker, to say that over $300 million worth of gold has been mined from Yukon, and there are millions now coming out, with more yet to come.
While it is correct to say that in the early days generous grants of money were made by the federal government to Yukon Territory, it is nonetheless a regrettable fact that a large percentage of those amounts was wasted and spent without any beneficial result to the country. Impossibilities were attempted with regard to regulating navigable waters. Roads were built where they could not be used and they had to be abandoned. Eventually capital acquired most of the mines, developed hydro electric power, operating fleets of giant gold dredges and by hvdraulic monitors swept
down hills rich with gold. That was all placer gold torn from the rocks of the mountains by some upheaval of nature and strewn across the country in nuggets and gold dust, as were strewn the rocks in boulders, gravel and sand.
Recently gold in place in veins has been discovered in Yukon, deposits startling in value. Development is well under way and soon these mines will be producing and adding to the wealth of Canada.
About fifty million dollars' worth of silver and lead had been mined in Yukon when, owing to the low' price of those metals, silver mining for a time came to a standstill. Now with better prices, within the past year new Canadian companies have acquired large holdings and are producing ore for shipment. Within a very short time the output should treble what- it formerly was.
The dominion government has had a substantial revenue from the gold and silver mines in Yukon. At first a royalty of ten per cent on gross output of gold was collected, then five per cent, now two and a half per cent. Silver and lead mines pay a graduated tax on profit.
No manufacturing is done in Yukon. Everything used is imported-food, clothing, machinery, hardware, most lumber, all coal, gasoline and liquor. On all those commodities the federal government gets a revenue in customs, excise, sales tax, transportation tax, land tax, recording fees and luxury tax. With regard to the luxury tax, the same luxury tax is imposed on a pack strap as on a bit of jewellery. Far from being a luxury, a pack strap is of necessity an instrument of torture, as anyone who has had to use one will agree.
Yukon's greatest need today is for roads from the mines to railhead, roads for development. Without roads there can be no advance. In some districts in Yukon development is at a standstill for lack of roads. Yukon did have an all-weather road from Dawson, the centre of gold mining, to railhead at Whitehorse, built with money provided by the federal government for that purpose. It was built many years ago. It was first traversed by horse-drawn coaches and sleighs, hauling freight and passengers. Then it was put in shape for motor traffic and was used by motor vehicles, tractors, trucks and automobiles. But for some unaccountable reason the federal government, by its commissioners and controllers, so wilfully neglected that road that it cannot now be used, whereas a relatively small annual expenditure would have kept it in condition and so improved it as to make it a first class unpaved road.
Owing to that policy or shameful lack of policy and common sense, Dawson, which is

The Address-Mr. G. Black
probably the oldest producing placer gold camp in the world, and Mayo, the silver camp, both of which have given and are giving the government substantial revenues, and will continue to do so, are as to transportation in winter, entirely isolated and cut off from the world except for a plane service which can operate only when visibility permits, and which charges freight and express rates that are practically prohibitive.
Let me cite just a few items showing the costs of household commodities which put the cost of living in Yukon sky-high, caused largely by the high cost of transportation on account of the government's neglect of that road to railhead, to which I have just referred. At Dawson gasoline now costs $1.50 a gallon; coal oil, over $1 a gallon: wood fuel-a soft poor quality of spruce-$22 per cord; electricity, twenty-five cents per kilowatt hour, plus government tax. Other necessities of life are proportionately expensive.
The Alaska highway, built through Yukon by the United States, has opened up formerly inaccessible areas. Already deposits of lode and placer gold have been discovered adjacent to it. A steady stream of traffic north and south goes over that road, winter and summer. Unfortunately, it goes nowhere near the old town of Dawson; it is hundreds of miles from that town. But it has certainly put the Yukon town of Whitehorse on the map. It is being kept in good condition by maintenance crews under the management of Canadian army engineers commanded by Brigadier Walsh. But at that, they are under a great handicap in having to use secondhand and worn-out machinery purchased by this government of Canada from the United States; for when the American army moved out and turned control of that highway over to Canada they left very little equipment that was worth having. Stopping-places and filling stations have been built along the road and tourists camps are being built.
I now' come to the reference in the speech from the throne to readjustment of representation in the House of Commons. The bill, if enacted, adds the district of Mackenzie in the northwest territories to Yukon as an electoral district, an impossible proposal. It is so impossible and impracticable that one wonders if those sponsoring the bill are really in earnest. If they are, it show's them to be totally lacking in knowledge of conditions in those areas or willing to discard all proprieties.
It may interest the house to know how those affected territories, Yukon and the northwest territories, are now governed. In Yukon they have an elected council with approximately

the same powers as the legislature of a province. They can legislate as to property and civil rights; they can vote or they can withhold supply. But the government of the territory is carried on and administered by an appointee of the federal government, who is appointed here in Ottawa.
The council of the northwest territories is not elected. It is composed of an aggregation of civil' servants, government employees who are here in Ottawa, thousands of miles away from the people for whom the}' are legislating. Like Yukon, the northwest territories are governed by an official appointed by the federal government.
In neither instance is the government of those territories responsible to the electors, as is the government of Canada, and as are the legislature in the provinces. The estimates for the coming year show a vote of $155,000 for Yukon which, broken down, is shown to be practically all for salaries and remuneration payable to federal employees. There is not a dollar for the development of the resources of that country, not a dollar for transportation. Yet, handicapped as Yukon is by lack of roads, there are those who would add to the political area of Yukon over 500,000 square miles of wilderness.
Let us see how that wilderness, the district of Mackenzie, fares with its government sitting here in Ottawa. I do not begrudge them what they get; I am glad to see them get it. But surely Yukon ought to have equally fair treatment. The government of the Northwest Territories is to get $3,306,000. of which $1,130,000 is for roads. They are to have a water and sew'age system installed at Yellowknife townsite at a cost of $745,000. Whoever heard of a municipal project of that kind being paid for by a federal government? Towns in Yukon have to instal their own water and sewage systems, and the people who use them have to pay for them. But here the federal government makes the town of Yellowknife a present of what is proper!}' a municipal project.
Referring to redistribution. I would predict that before the measure becomes law-


The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr. Golding):: Order. I would remind the hon. member that that is a matter which is now before a special committee.


George Black: And with all respect I should like to remind the Acting Speaker that this is a matter referred to in the speech from the throne, where it states:
You will be invited to consider a measure to provide for the readjustment of representation in the House of Commons.

The Address-Mr. G. Black
It is usual to have termination of the debate on the speech from the throne before matters are referred to committees, so that hon. members may not be handicapped in what they have to say. But at this session we have had the extraordinary procedure of referring the matter to a committee before conclusion of the debate on the address in reply. I do not think hon. members should be handicapped because of that unusual procedure. I hope I shall not traverse too far against Your Honour's ruling.
I predict that before the legislation becomes law, in its present atrocious form-and it is in an atrocious form-the people in the Mackenzie district themselves will protest, and will not submit to being so ruthlessly pushed around. I believe they would prefer to remain unrepresented in parliament rather than have to accept representation on the fantastically ridiculous terms proposed. There has scarcely yet been time to hear from them, but I predict we shall.
With its council of lobbyists, civil servants living here in Ottawa engaged in lobbying the government, whose employees they are, the Mackenzie district has not fared so badly. They induce the government to play Santa Claus to the people under their remote control -very remote control, thousands of miles away. Those people are being well cared for. As I said before, I do not begrudge them what they get; on the contrary I am glad they are getting it.
There is another matter to which I would direct the attention of the house, and I do so in view of the statement made in the speech from the throne:
Progress is being made in overcoming the shortages in building supplies, thereby accel-lerating the provision of additional housing. Despite all obstacles, the number of housing units completed in 1946 approximated the objective set by the government.
The matter I should like to bring to the attention of the house, the government, the minister and his department is the neglect of veterans who returned to their homes in Yukon after the war which ended two years ago. The terms of the Veterans Land Act apply to Yukon just as they do to the rest of Canada. However, in their wisdom the minister and his staff have not seen fit to apply it to veterans of Yukon. Thus far no veteran has been able, under the act, to purchase land in that territory. Under the various housing measures not one veteran's house has been built in Yukon.
When the Veterans Land Act was before the house at the last session neglect of veterans of Yukon was discussed. Let me quote briefly what was then said by the minister and by myself, and the undertaking
which he gave at that time. A question of doubt was expressed as to whether the act applied to Yukon. I read then, and I repeat at this time the wording of section 7 of that act, which states:
The director may for the purpose of this act
(a)	purchase by agreement, at prices which to him shall seem reasonable, or
(b)	in any other manner acquire by consent or agreement from His Majesty in the right of Canada or from any province or municipal authority, or from any person, firm or corporation such lands and buildings situate in any part of Canada and such other property including building materials.-
and so on.
I am sure the house, and the minister administering the act, must know that Yukon is part of Canada. By its wording the act applies explicitly to all parts of Canada.
To remove any doubt in the matter, on August 1, 1946, I moved an amendment by which I would have added a paragraph to the then section 35. The minister then asked me to refrain from pressing my amendment, and said:
I wonder if the hon. member, after having presented his case clearly and convincingly, would be good enough not to press the amendment, with my assurance that I shall be glad to consult with my colleagues at to what can be done to meet the suggestion he has made.
To this I replied:
Under the circumstances I hesitate to press the amendment. To my mind, section 7 is broad enough, in that it gives the director the right to purchase land from any person, firm or corporation-and not only the land, but the land and building situate in any part of Canada.
Then said the minister:
1 have not had an opportunity of consulting with my colleagues in regard to the matter. I would urge that the amendment be not now pressed, and I give the assurance that it will be carefully considered.
Accordingly the amendment was not pressed. But I should like to know now what has become of the careful consideration that was to be given to the matter during the recess, a recess which lasted from August to January 30 this year. The minister has had five months for consideration, five months during which, so far as I am aware, no action has been taken to better conditions of veterans in Yukon, notwithstanding the minister's undertaking given to the house.
Lest the minister is under any misapprehension to the effect that land in Yukon is not available for veterans, I can assure him that investigation would disclose that ample land is available for home sites for veterans. There is no shortage of lumber there, and in Dawson there are a number of large, well built and well preserved vacant government
The Address-Mr. Knowles

buildings which could be dismantled so that the lumber and fittings would be available for building purposes. The speech from the throne stated that the shortage of building material was being overcome. In this way the veterans in Yukon could be housed. I would regret to have to conclude that the reason why nothing has been done for the veterans in Yukon is the lack of interest on the part of the minister, notwithstanding his promised consideration.
I had intended to say something on old age pensions, but there will be ample opportunity when the promised legislation on old age pensions is introduced into the house. Therefore I will defer my remarks until that time.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, the speech from the throne contains the promise of legislation which is so long overdue that in my view it should have been presented to the house not later than the day after the speech was read to us in the other place by His Excellency the Governor General. I refer to the matter to which the hon. member who has just taken his seat made reference in his closing remarks -old age pensions. I rise at this time to point out that, instead of the immediate attention it should have been made possible for this house to give to this matter, we have been advised that there will be a delay. Our experience with the capacity of the present government for delaying matters is a sad one and I am afraid that, this delay may run into many months. I rise now to protest most strongly and to condemn the government for its delay and to express the hope that it may not last much longer.
The fact is that one can hardly find words adequately to criticize the present government's old age pension policy. To ask our deserving older Canadians, first of all to wait until they are seventy years of age and then if they live that long, to try to exist on a maximum of $25 a month, is shamefully inhuman and utterly callous. When we consider that, in addition to these inadequacies, there is in the Old Age Pensions Act, despite all the protests that have been made against it, a vicious means test; when we realize also that this government has made no provision for medical and hospital care and other things that our older people need, it all adds up to a sorry story of inhumanity and neglect.
To make matters worse, when we reach the point where it becomes necessary for the government to do something we are treated to still further delays. When I refer to reaching a point when something has to be done I have in mind the expiry of the National

Emergency Transitional Powers Act which led some of us to hope that this matter would be dealt with before March 31. Instead of that, when I questioned the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) about the matter on February 4, as recorded on page 83 of Hansard, he indicated that it was the intention of the government to ask for an extension of the present $25 a month beyond March 31, leaving until a later date the amendments to the act which were forecast in the speech from the throne and which we were told would include all that we now have and something more. But wThen that will be done we do not know.
A few days later, on February 10, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ilsley) confirmed this policy of delay by indicating, as reported on page 258 of Hansard, that the omnibus bill which he is to introduce will make provision for the continuance of the present $25 basis beyond March 31. In explaining the reason for this delay he said that he felt it was impossible to expect the Old Age Pensions Act to be amended before March 31, and he gave as the reason this could not be done the excuse we have heard in this house time and time again, namely, that the matter is the subject of discussion with the provinces.
We contend that this matter has not crept up upon the government unawares; it is indeed of their own creation. Furthermore, I would point out that on June 24 of last year the then Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Claxton) gave the house a clear-cut promise that the Old Age Pensions Act would be amended in that year, no matter how long the session lasted. A few weeks later, on July 5, the Prime Minister gave an indication of the business to be dealt with, and when I noticed that there was no reference to the Old Age Pensions Act I asked if the promise made by the then Minister of National Health and Welfare would be fulfilled. The Prime Minister replied that he would have to take a look at the promise. A week later, on July 12, as recorded on page 3394 of Hansard, he told us that the government had changed its mind in this matter and had decided to let the old age pensions situation be covered by the National Emergency Transitional Powers Act, leaving until this session the amendment of the Old Age Pensions Act itself. The excuse was that other business was more pressing.
In September, 1945, during the first session after the last election, I had something to say about this matter. It was shortly after the dominion-provincial conference in August when the government had made it clear to all the country that it was not satisfied with

The Address-Mr. Knowles
the present old age pension set-up by proposing art increase to $30 a month payable to all over seventy years of age without a means test.
I drew attention to the fact that the figures given for that old age pension plan were all based on the year 1948, and I asked a question which apparently was a bit annoying to the government, whether that meant that 1948 was to be the year of the next election. The then Minister of National Health and Welfare asked for the privilege of interrupting me to answer that question immediately, and he gave as his answer the contention that when the figures were worked out it was thought that 1948 would be the first full year after the war. When I countered by asking him when he thought the increased old age pensions would come into effect his reply was the same old story; he said the new rates would come into effect when there was agreement among the provinces and the dominion.
So we have had this story of delay, this waiting for the provinces right across the years. In the meantime the old people of this country have suffered beyond measure because of the small pittance upon which they have been asked to exist. I am sure hon. members will know from their own experience, as I do, of old people who have passed on sooner than they otherwise might have, simply because they could not keep alive on the amount provided by the government. I suggest that even in the comfort of this chamber we should try to face the meaning of these things in the lives of the human beings who are the victims of the government's constant delay. A terrible responsibility rests upon the shoulders of a government that still continues to give such a small pittance to our old people. Their very lives are in its hands. The time has gone for this continual delay and this continual passing of the buck to the provinces; the time has come when we should deal with the matter right here in this house.
We in this group have been making specific suggestions to the government. Since making those proposals we have received comments on them from one end of the country to the other. Our proposal is that the pension should be raised immediately to not less than $50 a month and be payable at the age of 65. We also insist that the means test be abolished; let there be no doubt about that. We urge also that there be added to the pension where necessary a cost of living supplement which would fluctuate with changes in the cost of living, and also an invalidity supplement. We suggest as well that there should be provided medical, dental, optical, and hospital care for our old people, and further,

that the time has come when this kind of provision should be paid for entirely by the federal government.
Not only have we been getting support on our stand from all over the country, but I was most interested a few weeks ago in the remarks made by a distinguished Canadian when he said that he did not know what attitude the Conservative party would take on this question but that it had been drawn to his attention that the C.C.F. suggested raising the ante to $50 a month and having the pension payable at the age of sixty-five. This distinguished gentleman, after discussing in the course of his speech the estimated cost of various pension plans, went on to say that a large amount of money would be required to pay old age pensions; but "I, for one," said he, "would hate to think that when I reach the age of sixty-five I should have anything less than $50 a month to live on." He went on to say that he liked much better the sound of ten times that amount and he called upon his colleagues-he was speaking in the so-salled other place-to face seriously up to this question of old age pensions, which he insisted could not be brushed aside. These remarks, Mr. Speaker, were not made out on the hustings, nor were they made by someone concerned about getting votes at the next election. They were made by the government leader in the senate. And so, Mr. Speaker, with support like that from the Hon. Wishart Robertson, as well as the kind of support indicated from all over the country, making it very clear that the people of Canada really want to do the right thing by our old people, I rise today to urge the government to put an end to this policy of delay and bring this matter before the house at an early day. There is no need at all to insist on covering the old age pension question in the omnibus bill. All that would mean is that the $25 a month could stay in effect for another year. I call upon the government to bring in its amendment to the Old Age Pensions Act on Wednesday or Thursday of this week just as soon as this debate is ended and let the house have a chance to express its views on the matter, when I am satisfied that members from all parts of Canada, knowing as they do the views of their constituents back home, will support the government in any move it makes, provided that it has in it some touch of generosity, so long overdue.
It is usually the practice of the government, in rising to reply to an appeal such as this, to make a boastful speech about what it has done for our old people and with regard to social security generally. During the last few

The Address-Mr. Knowles
days I have been making a study of old age pension plans and related social security measures in a number of other countries just to see where Canada fits in. The countries whose plans I have studied are nine in number: the United States, the United Kingdom, New Zealand, Australia, France, Czechoslovakia, Sweden, Denmark, and the Soviet Union, and I wish to draw the attention of the government and the house to Canada's position in relation to these other nine countries with respect to various aspects of old age pension plans.
First, let us consider the age. I find that one of these nine countries, Sweden, does not pay its old age pension until the age of sixty-seven, but even that is three years younger than the age at which we pay it in Canada. All the others of these nine countries I have named pay the old age pension at the age of sixty-five or sixty, and in some cases even younger. Only Canada still insists upon her old people waiting until they are three score and ten.
I turn now to the means test. I find that New Zealand has two plans. One is an old age benefit which is subject to a means test, and the other is a universal superannuation, which, has no means test whatsoever. In the United States they have also two plans. As a matter of fact there are more than that, because the plans vary from state to state, but in the main the provision made by the federal government in the United States consists of two plans. There is old age assistance, something like the plan in New Zealand, which is contingent upon a means test, but there is also old age and survivor's insurance without a means test. The United Kingdom, France, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Sweden, and the Soviet Union, have no means test whatsoever. Only Canada, of all these countries, maintains the vicious kind of humiliating means test that we inflict upon our old people.
I hold in my hand a copy of the form that is sent out to old age pensioners in my province once a year, asking for detailed: information of all kinds in reply to twenty-three questions that appear on this form, apart from all the sub-questions. The new income tax form is child's play compared with this document. At the top in red ink appears this statement: "Every question on this form must be answered. Leave no blanks. When completed and verified by statutory declaration mail to-" and the mailing address is given. Underneath that address there is this statement, in red ink and underlined:	"Your pension will
be suspended if this form is not returned properly completed."


James Joseph McCann: Who asks for that information?


Stanley Howard Knowles: The Manitoba old age and blind persons' pensions board, under the means test provisions laid down in the federal act. The minister must not try to imply that this government is not responsible for it, for the responsibility for the means test lies right here in Ottawa. The way to get rid of this kind of thing is for this government to abolish the means test entirely right across Canada.
Furthermore, as I have looked over the pension plans of these other countries I have named I find that there are invalidity supplements, or sickness benefits, or both, provided in all nine countries-all but ours. Only Canada restricts its aged people to the so-called pension, and nothing else. In four countries, New Zealand, France, Sweden, and Denmark, cost of living supplements are provided. And so, Mr. Speaker, the things that we of the C.C.F. are advocating are not new. As a matter of fact I find, for example, that invalidity benefits were provided by as backward a country as Germany even before we had the old age pension, which suggests that there is no room for boastfulness on the part of this government. There are also personal supplements, supplements for children, for housing, benefits for the blind and for orphans, for widows, for miners, for occupational diseases, and so on. I find that in all these other countries their pension plans are integrated into a total plan of social security, and the effect of it is that it is a pension in the full sense of the word. Only in this country is it still a matter of charity and disgrace.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Are these plans contributory?


Stanley Howard Knowles: They vary; some of them are; some of them are not. The amounts paid vary considerably as well. There are amounts of money as low as ours but with additional benefits. On the other hand, the average in the state of Washington is $48.11 a month.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Contributory to the extent of $48?


Stanley Howard Knowles: The sum of $48.11 is the average amount of the pension that the pensioners receive in the state of Washington.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Does the hon. member know how much is contributed?


Stanley Howard Knowles: If my hon. friend would like the material I have a great deal of it and should be glad to give it to him and let him study it.

The Address-Mr. Knowles


Harry Rutherford Jackman: I am very much interested in the subject.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I shall be glad to lend this material to my hon. friend so that he can study it and support our proposal, as I am sure he will.
What does it all add up to? Simply this, are we in Canada not prepared to organize the work and the production which is carried on by the working portion of our population so that we can provide retirement in decency and dignity, for those who have done their day's work? I believe we are.
During the war, more particularly during the last full year of the war, we had three-quarters of a million men and women out of productive employment in this country. They were in the armed forces doing a particular job, but they were not producing goods and services, and yet the rest of the people who were working were able to provide for that three-quarters of a million all their food and clothing, medical, dental and personal supplies, and, in addition, cash in the form of pay and allowances totalling $985,270,670. In the face of that, I suggest that the government should not tell us that the $560 million which it will cost to pay $50 a month at age sixty-five is prohibitive. If we can take that many people out of production and provide them with the necessities of the job that they were doing in time of war, I submit that we can take fewer people out of production-only 190,000 are being paid pensions today, but the number would be greater if we abolished the means test, although considerably smaller than the first number I mentioned-and provide for their needs quite easily. The cost would be considerably less than what we spent to maintain our armed forces. We can do it, and in the name of humanity we must.
I now wish to deal with another subject. Like the previous one, this is a matter on which my voice has been heard in this chamber before, and it will be heard repeatedly until we get somewhere with it. I refer to the gross injustice perpetrated upon the employees of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company who were out on strike in 1919. I have told the story fairly often so that I need only summarize it briefly.
At the time of the 1919 strike the pension plan then in effect was a non-contributory one. Those who oppose me in this matter seem to like to point that out. I have pointed it out since the first time I raised the matter in the house. It was non-contributory, but evidence is conclusive that down through the years the men were told, particularly every time there was any discussion on wages, to 83166-78
remember that when they were working for the Canadian Pacific Railway Company they were working not just for the wages they received but also for the pension they would have at the end of their days of labour. As a result of this, the men were led to believe that they had a definite equity which was being built up through the years. However, when the men went back after the strike in 1919 they discovered that the company took the view that that strike had been a break in service, and therefore unilateral and arbitrary action was taken by the company in saying that the men who were over forty years of age could not enjoy their pension rights at all, and the men who were under forty, though they were permitted to re-enter the company's pension plan, were denied all the rights they had earned up until 1919. At that time about five hundred employees were affected to the extent of 100 per cent. That is, there were about five hundred who were over forty years of age and who therefore lost all their pension rights. There were another 2,200 or so who were under forty. These 2,200 were permitted to enter into the pension plan again, but they lost the rights they had earned prior to 1919.
It was a long story from that time down through the years. I refer to the efforts of the men to have this wrong righted. Finally, in 1937 a new pension plan came into effect on a contributory basis. The clause that had been used against the men in 1919 was kept in the new plan and it is still in effect. I will not discuss that, since it comes up under another matter, namely, Bill No. 24 which I have introduced and which I hope will be passed later in this session. But despite the efforts made by the representatives of the men at the time the new plan was brought into effect, the company still stood adamant in its refusal to reinstate the rights of men who were out in 1919. I first raised the matter in the house in 1944, and have had a good deal to say about it since that time.
In 1945 the government finally met us part way by appointing Mr. H. S. Johnstone of the Department of Labour as an investigator. The purpose of Mr. Johnstone's investigation was to determine whether or not the government should establish a royal commission to go into this matter. Mr. Johnstone made a thorough study and an exhaustive report, which was presented to the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) on December 7, 1945. After some months of pretty hard pulling on our part, we had this report tabled in August, 1946. The report is an exhaustive one. Mr. Johnstone saw all the people concerned on both sides of the dispute and also saw people who were not

The Address-Mr. Knowles

involved in this dispute, but who had been involved in similar problems in 1919, such as the Canadian National Railways, the city of Winnipeg and other employers who reinstated the pension rights of their employees long ago.
After making a full study of the question, and bearing in mind the purpose of his appointment by the Minister of Labour, Mr. Johnstone made a definite recommendation in these words, found on page 17 of his report:
It is the opinion of the undersigned that the employees have established strong claims for consideration. The nature and extent for adjustments, if any, cannot be determined except by a more exhaustive analysis than was possible, or even contemplated, in this preliminary investigation. I would therefore recommend that a royal commission be established to examine into the whole question, to determine what if any consideration should be granted, and if so, then to whom and in what manner pension adjustments should be made.
Armed with a recommendation such as that, the unions concerned have pressed for the appointment of a royal commission, and I have supported their representations in the house as strongly as I could. But the Minister of Labour, speaking for the government in this matter, has repeatedly told us that it cannot be done. The last time the Minister of Labour spoke on it was in reply to a question of mine on the orders of the day on February 3, which is recorded on pages 35 and 36 of Hansard. On that occasion he gave three reasons for not proceeding with the recommendation made to him by an officer of his department. His three reasons were these. First of all, he said that he did not believe in spending the other fellow's money. He said that this was money of the C.P.R.; that the plan was non-contributory and that he felt he should not be put in the position of being asked to spend another fellow's money. In the second place, he said that he felt this was the sort of matter which should be fought out between the unions and the company.


Humphrey Mitchell: I did not say "fought out".


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am willing to correct the word "fought". I forget the exact word but the minister will admit he said that the matter should be dealt with between the unions and the company and not brought here on the floor of parliament. His third remark was that, in his view, after a study of the matter by the officials of his department or the Department of Justice, a royal commission would serve no useful purpose.
With regard to the first remark, namely that the minister does not like spending other people's money, may I say, first of all, that a

great amount of the people's money, money out of public funds, has been given to the C.P.R. I understand that, across the years, cash grants from the federal government to the C.P.R. have amounted to $89,671,000. In my view, therefore, the people of Canada have some interest in how the C.P.R. spends its money, not to mention the fact that it makes all its money out of the people of Canada. But, in addition to that, the whole question as to whether these men have an equity which is theirs, upon which they have a claim, is basic in the entire dispute, and Mr. Johnstone went into that matter fully. This was his summing up, as found at page 15 of his report:
Any established plan of this nature, whether wholly company-contributory ot not, when maintained for a time becomes one of the established working conditions, and together with the actual wage paid they form the remuneration earned by the employee. The employee argument therefore, that by each year of service he is building up deferred earnings in a pension, is one which has considerable weight. To be deprived of these past earnings by reason of absence on strike or absence during a strike, does not seem to be equitable treatment; and all the more so when the decision is made by the party which will thereby save large sums of money as a result of rigid adherence to this rule.


An hon. MEMBER:: Hear, hearl


Stanley Howard Knowles: Thank you. I submit therefore, Mr. Speaker, that the position taken by the minister is not valid. This money is, in part, money supplied by the people of Canada and definitely is the money of the employees who built up an equity, and the Canadian Pacific Rail-way Company has no right to expropriate it arbitrarily and by unilateral action.
As for the minister's suggestion that this matter should be taken up between the unions concerned and the company instead of being brought to the floor of parliament, I have received a number of letters since he made that statement, letters from top-ranking union men in Canada. One of these letters I hold in my hand and it typifies the way in which the men concerned take issue strongly with the minister. Here is a reference to the minister's remarks which I have just quoted:
Does he not know that the question has been the subject of discussion between the parties themselves? Is he unaware that it has been handled by the men's represenatives up to and including the president of the Canadian Pacific Railway? Because we did not receive any consideration from the mighty Canadian Pacific Railway, the question is now before the elected members of the dominion parliament to ascertain if the citizens of the dominion, in this instance, cannot receive justice to which they are entitled? God help them! Where else can they look for assistance but to those who in the

The Address-Mr. Knowles
legislative assembly are elected to see that justice prevails to all citizens of the dominion of Canada, and not only to the privileged classes?
It is because I have received letters like that, because of my contacts with the men-


Humphrey Mitchell: Who signed that?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am sorry; I was going to mention that. It is signed by J. J. Hendrick, vice-president of the brotherhood of railroad trainmen. It is because of support like that, because of what I know to be the feeling of the men themselves that their case should be brought into the high court of parliament, that I have pressed the matter here repeatedly, and I shall continue to do so until justice is done.
The third remark made by the minister was that no useful purpose would be served by appointing a royal commission. That, it seems to me, is a case of passing judgment in advance, which he has no right to do. There has been a definite recommendation from an officer of his department that a royal commission be appointed. There have been repeated expressions of sympathy by the minister, by the Prime Minister and by members on all sides of the house, and it does seem to me that the fair thing for the government to do would be to carry out this recommendation.
If there are difficulties in the way of appointing a royal commission; if some other form of commission, it is felt, should be appointed, I am sure the men would settle for a different name. But certainly they feel that some kind of public inquiry should be held so that the facts of the matter can really be brought out and a finding made. Whether it could be made compulsory by the government is a matter the lawyers can argue about, but certainly if a public commission were to make the kind of finding that would be given if we had an inquiry by an impartial commission, it would have effect in the eyes of the public.
I mention in passing, as has been mentioned in the course of this debate, that at this time when the C.P.R. is asking, along with others, for increases in freight rates, this matter must be set alongside that request-this treatment that the company has given to these men. But I press home the point that right now the responsibility rests upon this government and upon the Minister of Labour and the Prime Minister, who has taken an interest in this matter, to see that this commission is set up.
It is true that the government was not the guilty party in the first place; it was the C.P.R., but the men have appealed to the high court of parliament for action. Their unions have asked for a commission, and an impartial investigator has recommended it. I 83166-781
submit, therefore, that the responsibility now rests upon the government and particularly upon the Minister of Labour and the Prime Minister to see to it that this recommendation is carried out.
I have here a copy of a well-known book entitled "Industry and Humanity" by W. L. Mackenzie King, and at pages 347 and 348 there are a few observations about protection for people in their old age. This was written in 1918 and, as a matter of fact, it bears upon both the subjects I have been talking about, old age pensions and these friends of mine in the employ of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. The sentence I wish to read is this:
If lifelong public service in industry is _ to receive its fitting reward, years that are denied opportunity of employment should not be subjected to the humiliation of dependence on charity.
I think, Mr. Speaker, of the plight of the old age pensioners generally, and I am thinking just now of the plight of these employees of the C.P.R., men who have given lifelong public service in industry, men who have served the Canadian Pacific Railway Company for thirty, forty and fifty years, and whose only reward in their old age is the humiliation of dependence or charity.
The Prime Minister said in 1918 that this should not be allowed, and I call upon the Prime Minister now to have a royal commission appointed to go into this matter see that justice may yet be won for these men; for I am satisfied that never was a case pleaded in which justice was so clearly on its side. The responsibility for the continued suffering of these men and their families rests quite clearly on the government.
There are two or three minutes left before my time expires and I wish to refer to one other group of elderly people. I have spoken about old age pensioners generally and I have spoken about the men of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. I now wish to say a word about the widows of veterans of the first world war. Hon. members who were here in the last parliament will recall the long struggle to get some kind of allowance for widows of non-pensioned veterans of the first world war. It was quite a story, the way these women came here a few years ago, their perseverence, the difficulties they had, but finally their success in having their case considered, to the point that in 1943 they were granted, if in necessitous circumstances, $20 or $25 a month. A year later, in 1944, this amount was raised to the sum of $30.41 a month, which corresponds with the maximum amount payable as a burnt-out pension under the War Veterans Allowance Act. Since that
The Address-Mr. Knowles

time there has been no appreciable change in the position of these women. The only change of note was made last year when these provisions were made statutory rather than subject to an annual vote. It is still true that the amount is only $30.41 a month, and that the allowance is subject to a rigid means test. Widows of veterans who did not get beyond England in the first world war are not covered at all.
Only a night or two before I left Winnipeg to come here for the opening of the session in January, the last group of people I met before leaving home was an association .of these women in Winnipeg. I wish it were possible, Mr. Speaker, to transplant into the comfort of this green chamber, with all the red roses we have around today, the pitiful circumstances of these widows of veterans of the first world war who are trying to exist on the amount that is given to them. I plead for further consideration of their case, for raising the amount to at least $40 a month, letting down the barriers of the means test, providing hospitalization and medical care for them. Not to do these things is an insult to the memory of their husbands who fought in the first world war. One of the things, which has bothered me has been the change in the attitude of many hon. members about this matter. Back in the days before anything had been done, there was considerable agitation. Members of all parties were rising in their places and pleading the cause of these women. But somehow or another, since they got their $30.41 a month, there seems to be a general tendency to assume that the problem is settled. I have heard members of the official opposition even congratulate the government and compliment them on what they are doing for these widows. The government does not deserve any compliments at all for asking the widows of veterans of the first world war to live on $30-41 a month. I call upon the government to do something about this matter, and I call upon my fellow members in all parts of the house to support me in this plea. Let me put it in this way: let us make nuisances of ourselves about this matter again, and let us see if we cannot get something done this year.
I see that my time has gone, Mr. Speaker, and I must close. I have confined my remarks to these three groups of people, old age pensioners generally, the retired employees of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company who have no pension, and the widows of veterans of the first world war. All of them are victims of inhumanity and callousness; they are also victims of other matters that I could discuss, such as housing shortages, price increases,

and all of that. But enough for now. Just this I desire to say. These people, and indeed Canadians all across this country, are putting a very simple question to the government these days. The question has to do with that new order about which there was so much talk during the war. The question is a very simple one, but straight to the point: Where is it?
At six o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. VICTOR QUELCH (Acadia):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to support the amendment moved by the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Low), I do so because I believe that the adoption of the measures contained therein is essential in order that we may achieve those things for which we fought, namely an optimum standard of living for our people, with a maximum degree of personal freedom. Canada's great war effort is still fresh in our minds. But let us not forget that the sacrifices which were made during the war were made not merely for the purpose of defeating Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito, but in order that we in this country may remain free people.
During the war the people were encouraged by promises regarding a new social order and by the declaration of principles known as the Atlantic charter, under which all people might enjoy security and freedom. But let us constantly keep in mind the fact that victory over the enemy was merely the first objective. The ultimate objective is still to be won. We have often been told that the reason the people put forth such a tremendous effort during the war was that they had the incentive to defeat the enemy; that in peace time that incentive is lacking, and that therefore in peace time they will not be prepared to make the same kind of effort as they were in war time, to reach their peacetime objective.
Surely, Mr. Speaker, under dynamic leadership in Canada it should be possible to arouse enthusiasm to attain that main objective of giving to the people of Canada the highest standard of living that the country can produce or the people may desire. Whilst it may take many years to reach that objective in so far as many countries of the world are concerned, nevertheless it can be reached, I believe, at an early day in Canada, thereby giving leadership by example to the other nations of the world.

The Address-Mr. Quelch
And to those people who are so afraid of communism and socialism I would say that the only way to stop their growth in Canada is to make private enterprise work, not merely in the interests of this class or that class, but in the interests of all the people of Canada. However, when I read the speech from the throne I find) no sign of the type of leadership that is essential to inspire people with a will and confidence to drive on to an objective. There can be no security for people who are physically incapacitated, when no provision is made for payment of a pension. There can be no security for the aged on a miserable pittance of $30 a month, or less.
I am aware of the fact that the speech from the throne does mention that an amendment will be passed; but recalling what was said by the then Minister of National Health and Welfare at the end of the last session I have grave doubts as to whether that amendment will bring about the changes in the Old Age Pensions Act which we consider essential. I would say there can be no security for people in the lower income brackets while the government confiscates a large part of their income. There can be no sense of security for workers in this country when they are continually being warned of the danger of approaching depression. How can we expect industry to go full steam ahead when they have no assurance regarding future markets?
As I said, there is nothing in the speech from the throne to inspire people with confidence regarding the future. Again I would remind the house of the warning that was issued to the country by Mr. Graham Towers in his report of 1946. I put it on record last year, but I make no apology for placing it on record again at this time, because it is a warning that should be kept constantly before the people of Canada. I refer to page 9, where I find this:
Clearly it is the first two items in the expenditure table, comprising total government outlay, which represented the main driving force behind the very high level of activity which was attained during the war period. Canada's problem now is to expand the other types of expenditure, and particularly domestic private investment and domestic consumption, in order that there will be compensating stimulus as government outlays decline to their post-war level.
And on page 10:
Looking to the future, however, there is no reason for complacency. Most of our real problems of post-war adjustment are still ahead. The backlog of demand will not be large in relation to productive capacity when industry has been fully reconverted and inventories built up to normal levels. When the time lag involved in demobilization is over, government expenditures will fall rapidly. Nor will our foreign lending to finance the purchase of Canadian
goods remain indefinitely at the present level. The prevailing optimism on the North American continent is dangerous if it diverts attention from the problems which have to be faced.
Many similar warnings have been issued. I should like to refer briefly to a book which I believe most hon. members have seen. It was written by Mr. W. H. Moore, a former member of the House of Commons, andi is entitled, "Grey Days". At page 5, he speaks about a report of a committee of the league of nations, and states:
That world depression should be brought to an end and never happen again the assembly of the league of nations, October 1937, arranged that a delegation of scientists should study the conditions that bring about depression and report on measures to prevent them. After prolonged study the committee issued its report in two sections, the first one in 1943 and the second one in 1945.
I he final report contains 319 pages from which, at present, I extract but six words. After reciting the conditions that led up to the disastrous decade of the nineteen-thirties, the delegation reported: "That history is repeating itself today."
Then I noticed a press report the other day which quoted Mr. L. B. Pearson, under-secretary of state for external affairs, as warning that, unless Canada is careful and lucky, she may be looking back on 1947 with nostalgic envy.
In view of that type of warning, is it any wonder that the people of Canada are becoming leery as to what the future may hold for them? I do not doubt for one moment that the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) will be careful-careful not to commit himself to anything definite. That attitude, however, does not help create confidence or inspire the people with enthusiasm. I think it must be obvious to all who seriously address themselves to this problem, that the great danger in the near future will be a depression on account of lack of purchasing power, or lack of effective demand against those goods which the people desire and can be produced in abundance. To a very large extent it will be a repetition of what we in this country suffered during the thirties. I have in mind especially the period of 1935 to 1939. It will be recalled that during that time we had in the neighbourhood of a million people on relief, industry running at less than fifty per cent of its capacity, and half a million unemployed.
During that time it was the common practice to blame industry for that situation. People said, "Why does industry not have more confidence and expand production, utilizing the unemployed to produce goods that the people so sorely need in this country?" I would say that industry was not to blame for that situation. Industry knew only too well that if

The Address-Mr. Quelch
they were to expand their production they would merely have an increased amount of production remaining unsold on their hands, unsold because they were already at that time with that limited amount of production having a great deal of difficulty in disposing of their goods.
The hon. member for Peace River explained in his speech the cause of this situation, namely, that owing to certain practices inherent within the capitalist system industry is not able to distribute sufficient purchasing power in the form of salaries, wages and dividends to make it possible for the people to buy their production except in times of abnormal capital goods construction such as exist in war time or in the early development of new countries. In both these last two cases the purchasing power of the people is maintained by going steadily farther into debt.
As a result of that we are faced with one of three alternatives if we desire to maintain the full development of the resources of the country. We have to export our surplus goods and maintain a favourable balance of trade as was done by the industrialized nations in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, or we have to destroy production on a grand scale as was done in 1930, or we have to adopt the only sane plan, of expanding the purchasing power of the people to the point Where they can buy the total production of the country.
In the past, industrialized nations have tried to maintain employment by the first two means, by exporting their surplus goods and not bringing back imports in return. As the hon. member for Peace River pointed out, that was the policy of England for 200 years prior to 1914. It was true that England maintained a fairly high degree of employment in that period; it is true that, generally speaking, England was considered to be a prosperous nation, but do not let anyone forget that during that period there was horrible distress and destitution among many classes of people in that country.
That situation came to an end to a very large extent in 1914 when the crisis developed. What had happened was that the countries to which England had been exporting goods had themselves become industrialized and were trying to do the same thing; they were trying to export their products to other countries and a tariff war ensued. That policy must be condemned on the ground that there can be no justification for exporting more than you import when that production is sorely needed by the people of the country.

I would say that under no consideration whatsoever can the destruction of goods be justified.
These policies I think are adopted chiefly because of a false objective, the objective of full employment instead of the democratic objective of an optimum standard of living for the people of the country. If your objective is an optimum standard of living, then by no possible means could you justify exporting more than you import, nor would you dream of destroying goods, nor would you reduce production just because there was inadequate buying power to make it possible for the people to buy it. Therefore, in order to achieve that objective you must expand the purchasing power of the people to the point where they can buy the total production of the country. I should like to quote from a report by Doctor Harold Loeb, who was chairman of the national survey of .potential production capacity in the United States in 1935. He was appointed by Mr. Hoover and in his book "Chart of Plenty" under "Conclusions" on page 161, he has this to say:
It would seem that the simple and obvious way out, that of giving a buying power adequate to procure desired goods and services to the limit of our ability to produce them, might well be tried. It is simple in principle but has not been attempted.
It is in the light of this situation that we moved the amendment which is now before the house. Before proceeding, I should like to read the first two sections to which I intend to direct my remarks:	They are:
Ministers ought to have advised Your Excellency that they would introduce in the present session measures providing for:
A.	The return to parliament of complete and effective control of Canada's financial policy.
B.	The use of the national credit to meet at least some of the financial requirements for essential services; and, as a guarantee that this country shall not again be subjected to financial depression, to make available to each and all Canadian citizens a proper portion of purchasing power which shall not first pass through the usual channels of industry, this on a basis calculated to maintain a balance between effective purchasing power in the hands of consumers and the aggregate of the prices of goods available for sale.
We realize that we are still in a transition period and that it is not yet possible to meet all the demands of the Canadian people. However we believe that the standard of living of the people could be greatly increased it we were to remove some of the obstacles in the way of production; if we were to remove some of the heavy taxation and also some of the controls; if were to start and curtail the size of some of the large foreign loans that have been made in the past.

The Address-Mr. Quelch
Nevertheless we are rapidly approaching the situation referred to by Mr. Graham Towers in his 1946 report. I would say that we cannot afford to wait until that situation develops because, once a depression comes into being, it is too late. You have then started to destroy the confidence of the people and it would not be an easy thing to revive production in the country.
Therefore we urge that the following steps be taken. We urge the setting up of a competent national monetary authority operating in conjunction with the Bank of Canada and responsible to the people through parliament. This authority should exercise full and effective control over the operation of the monetary system, including the issue and withdrawal of all currency and credit. This authority should be required to maintain a proper accounting of the national economy to ensure (a) that adequate monetary facilities are available to finance all required production, having due regard to a proper balance being maintained as between capital goods and consumer goods production; and (b), that at all times the people possess effective purchasing power equivalent to the total prices of goods available for sale.
It would also be the responsibility of this national monetary authority to finance all government expenditures that could not be met by an equitable system of taxation, and at the same time without increasing the national debt. Keeping in mind the fact that the real objective of the people is an optimum standard of living and that the main obstacle to achieving this objective in the future will be a lack of effective demand, it should be the responsibility of this financial authority to maintain a balance between the total national consumption, including capital depreciation and exports, on the one hand, and the total national production, including capital appreciation and imports, on the other.
Until such time as production has been expanded sufficiently to take care of the desires of the Canadian people and keeping in mind the necessity of giving assistance to distressed countries, our first job should be to guarantee security for the aged and incapacitated and all those people who are unemployable. It is all very well to talk about a new social order, but first of all let us set our own house in order. There is an old saying that charity should begin at home. Surely Canada with a population of only eleven and a half million to twelve million people and an income of around $10,000 million, an average of about $3,500 per family of four, can do better than a mere pittance of $30 a month for her aged people.
We have urged that pensions should be paid at the rate of $50 a month at the age of sixty; that a similar amount should be paid to all people who are incapacitated and unemployable and that no means test shall be applied. We also believe that the war veterans allowance to both veterans and their dependents should be increased to a similar amount.
In order to ensure that the people of Canada would at all times be able to buy the goods that are offered for sale, the price of these goods should be adjusted so that they bear the same relationship to their financial cost as the total national consumption bears to the total national production. For example, if the financial authority upon checking the relationship between demand and supply find that demand was equal to, say only ninety per cent of the supply, the authority would authorize the payment of a ten per cent discount. The retailers would then sell their goods at ten per cent discount and submit their sales slips to the banks and be compensated for that ten per cent loss; the banks would present their slips to the financial authority and receive credit for the amount they had advanced to various retail merchants, and there would be no increase in taxes. In this way demand would be balanced with supply, and industry could expand with confidence, knowing there would be a ready market for all the goods they produced of a desired quality. As our production steadily expands and the situation referred to by Graham Towers becomes more evident, we could either increase the amount of the discount or, on the other hand, guarantee a basic income to all people. That, of course, would be issued on the basis of the surplus goods which were available for distribution. Surely this would be a far better way of dealing with our surplus goods than destroying them or making foreign investments, and, on the other hand, better than reducing production owing to inadequate buying power on the part of the people. If, by any chance, the guaranteed basic income established was so high that it created a demand greater than could be satisfied, the discount in that event would turn into a sales tax and the balance between demand and supply would be restored in that way.
Some people say, why could we not expand the purchasing power of the people by expanding wages? Unfortunately, when you expand wages you expand costs, and when you expand costs you expand prices, so that the purchasing power of the people will not be increased in relationship to the total prices charged. I quite realize that there would be certain cases
The Address-Mr. Quelch

where wages could be increased without increasing prices, but generally speaking it must be true to say that a general increase in wages brings about a general increase in costs and a general increase in costs brings about a general increase in prices. Therefore, in order to expand the purchasing power of the people in relation to the prices of the goods for sale, additional purchasing power would have to be paid to the people without its passing through the channels of industry. Otherwise it would incur costs in the process, and the purchasing power of the people would not be increased in relation to the total prices of the goods charged.
No doubt some hon. members would say that an increase in purchasing power or a price adjustment is bound to bring about an increase in taxation. Obviously these payments cannot be made by an increase in taxation because that would defeat the very purpose of issuing the purchasing power and decrease the demand for goods. Obviously these payments cannot be made by an increase in the sales of bonds to the people because that would also reduce the purchasing power of the people. I think the war policy proves that point conclusively. It will be recalled that during the war we had very heavy taxation and that we indulged in heavy borrowings from the people, and one of the reasons given for that policy was to curtail the spending power of the people. If heavy taxation and bond sales curtailed! the spending power of the people in war time it is bound to have exactly the same effect in peace time.
I should like to quote from a speech made by the deputy minister of finance, Doctor W. C. Clark, in 1942, at Montebello, as reported in the Financial Post. Dealing with this question, Doctor Clark said:
The same philosophy which has led to these very high taxes in war time is likely to dictate a reversal of that policy in the post-war years. Today, demand is far in excess of supply. Consumer purchasing power is far in excess of the available supply of consumer goods and services. The taxing authorities therefore must through high taxes siphon off as much as possible of that surplus purchasing power if we are to avoid all the evils of inflation.
On the other hand, the post-war period is likely to pose an entirely different set of conditions. If we may judge by the record of the past, we are likely to see, after a temporary period of dislocation and hesitation followed possibly by a consumer goods purchasing boom, a period during which, unless the state acts aggressively and intelligently to prevent it, supply or potential supply may tend to be far in excess of effective demand.
What will then be needed is to safeguard against deflation, not to prevent inflation. If we are to avoid a long depression and mass unemployment, the policy required will be one of stimulation of the economy, one that will

create expansionist tendencies, one that will provide incentives to expansion of production, one that will encourage the consumer to spend and expand his purchasing power, in short, one which will keep the national income from falling to abnormally low levels.
I think that is a warning we can very well take to heart at the present time. So quite obviously that problem cannot be solved through spending money obtained either by taxation or by borrowing the savings of the people, because that in itself is a deflationary policy. The money needed to maintain an effective demand against our production should be issued by the monetary authority. It should be paid direct to the consumer without passing through the channels of industry and would be debt-free, because obviously you cannot meet a deficiency of purchasing power by going into debt; otherwise when the debt is repaid the deficiency would recur.
Former ministers of finance have charged that issuing national money would be highly inflationary because it would increase the cash reserves of the chartered banks and they would then be in a position to expand their loans in the ratio of ten to one of their cash deposits. I think that proves conclusively that we have not effective control over the issue of credit on the part of the chartered banks when we as a nation are placed in the ridiculous and helpless position of not being able to issue our own money without fear of the action of a subordinate body.
Therefore, in order that effective control may be established over the actions of the chartered banks in creating money, we suggest as one means the adoption of the 100 per cent system. We are not dogmatic on this question. We quite realize that there may be many other methods by which the results desired may be achieved, but we suggest that this is one means of overcoming the objection raised by ministers of finance to our suggestion that national money should be made use of to make, up a deficiency in purchasing power. That is to- say, we urge that the Bank Act be amended so that the chartered banks will be required to maintain 100 per cent cash reserves behind their demand deposit liabilities. A national monetary authority could provide the banks with this extra cash by buying from them the dominion securities now held by the banks. Banking would then become wholly a business of lending and reinvesting pre-existing money. The banks would no longer be able to create money as they have done in the past. There would, of course, have to be a sharp distinction drawn as between savings and demand deposits. The savings would be term investments and would be withdrawable only on

The Address-Mr. Quelch
notice. In the past the Minister of Finance has taken the stand in the house that by banks surrendering interest-bearing securities for cash they would have to operate at a loss. I would say that this point has never been proved largely because the government have seen fit to refuse to disclose to hon. members the size of the banks' hidden inner reserves. Nevertheless, if the government or the banks can prove that such a proposal would mean that they would operate at a loss, then the national monetary authority could lend the banks money against their securities instead of buying them outright, and they could be charged a nominal rate of interest on the money advanced to them in that way.
May I point out that this proposal known as the 100 per cent system has been endorsed by many prominent economists and bankers. The 100 per cent system would undoubtedly effectively control inflationary action on the part of the chartered banks. I am not quite satisfied myself that you could also control the danger of a deflationary policy by them.
It is interesting to note what Major Douglas has said on this point. Some people believe that the safest way to establish control over the chartered banks would be by nationalizing them. We of this group have never taken a stand against the nationalization of the chartered banks; we have merely pointed out that you will accomplish nothing by merely nationalizing the banks unless you change their policy. In his book entitled, "The Use of Money", at page 29 Major Douglas points out that, whilst the majority of bankers would be quite prepared to cooperate, nevertheless approximately five per cent at the top would in all probability oppose the adoption of a sane monetary system. Then he goes on to say:
I do not say that something like the nationalization of banking will not have to come. I think it probably may have to come. But what I am perfectly certain of is that if you unite the powers of government with the powers of banking before you have changed the banking system, you have got a problem which is doubly difficult to solve.
In closing, I should like to say to hon. members who are still suffering from the delusion that governments have to depend upon the receipts from taxation and borrowing from the people for their revenue, that that is not how we financed the last war. It is true that we had heavy taxation and large bond sales, but let not hon. members forget that over S3,000 million were created by the chartered banks for the use of the government. In all, over $4 billion of new money was created during that period. Therefore do not let anybody 83166-79
jump to the conclusion that we financed the war solely by bond sales to the public and taxation. We would have had a very different kind of war effort from the one we had if that had been done. The only exception that we would take to the method adopted by the government is that this money was created by the chartered banks instead of by the Bank of Canada. Had it been created by the Bank of Canada, then we would have had that much less debt in the country.
Let me recall the situation which we had in the country back in 1935 and 1939. Hon. members will remember that on every occasion when we in this comer urged the government to use national money to meet the needs of the people we were met with the cry that such a policy would mean inflation. Then the war came, and immediately the chartered banks were hired to create hundreds of millions of dollars in order to maintain the full development of the resources so as to have the greatest possible war effort. We say that if it is possible to create money in wartime to maintain the full development of the resources of the country, then it should also be possible to create money in peace time in order to achieve the objective that we fought for, namely a high standard of living with maximum degree of personal freedom for the people.
It was the declared policy of the government in war time that no financial restrictions should be allowed to impede our war effort. The only limits were the men and materials available. Then we come to the year 1946 and the question of the old age pension is raised in the house. It is suggested that old age pensions of $50 a month at age of sixty should be paid, and once again as from 1935 to 1939 we are met with the same old cry that it cannot be done because it would cost too much money. If, instead of our talking about old age pensions, the war had been on ahd we had been suggesting that we should build, we will say, so many tanks, would we have been met with the cry, we cannot do it because it would cost too much? No; it would have been merely a question of whether or not we had the men and materials to build these tanks. Surely, then, when we are dealing with the question of old age pensions the only thing we should have to consider is whether or not we can provide the goods to satisfy the demand created by the payment of increased old age pension. In view of the fact that we are being warned that the main obstacle which we have to face in the future is lack of effective demand, a very good way to create the demand will be by paying old age pensions to the old people, and paying pensions to all people who

The Address-Mr. McLure

are physically incapacitated. I do not believe *that people will tolerate that kind of financial dictatorship in the future. Let it not be said that money can be the servant of the people only in war, and that in peace time it has to be the master.
Mr. W. CHESTER S. McLURE (Queens): Mr. Speaker, before beginning my address on the speech from the throne, permit me for a few moments to say something with regard to the pleasurable event we had here this afternoon. I am referring to the unanimous welcome extended to our Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) when he returned to his duties in the house. It was a unanimous welcome, and I therefore would make a suggestion that, should it ever occur again, the red roses might be given to both sides of the house.
I should also like to say that during the absence of the Prime Minister the house was most capably led' by the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie). I am sure that his work in leading the house during the absence of the Prime Minister will enhance his position when it comes to the selection of a man to succeed the Prime Minister. Had the roses been passed to this side of the house, no doubt I would have been pleased to wear one myself this evening.
Again, sir, it is my privilege to address you as the honourable Speaker of the house, notwithstanding the rumours which have been floating around. According to the press, you are to be chosen as leader of the party in the great province of Quebec. Another press report I read-no doubt you have seen it on many occasions yourself-was that a prominent place in the cabinet awaits you when the second shuffle begins. However I am glad to see you here in your accustomed chair at the present time. I have now received my rose.


Mr. HARKNESS:: How does it smell?


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: In speaking in this debate, I would be remiss in my duty if I did not congratulate the mover of the address, the hon. member for Prince (Mr. MacNaught). He excelled himself as he freely and fearlessly expressed his views, which would be, of course, in accord with those of his own government. The hon. member for Prince showed in his speech what his own party would say was good sportsmanship, and he built up that sportsmanship because, when his party had reviled and neglected us, he reviled not again during his speech, except to say one thing-and I quote what he said:
It is difficult to estimate just how much Prince Edward Island suffered during that period.
[Mr. Quelch.J
No doubt the hon. member meant the delay in transportation and delay in getting our new ferry boat.
I desire also to congratulate the seconder, the hon. member for Richelieu-Vercheres (Mr. Cournoyer), on the excellence of his maiden speech. He likewise did his party full justice re the speech from the throne. Despite the fact that he resides in that great shipbuilding centre of Sorel, where our car ferry has been in the course of construction for the past number of years, we shall not hold him responsible for the many unfulfilled promises of her early completion by his government.
It is a year, Mr. Speaker, since the opening of the second session and we are now in the third. During that time, death has claimed three members of this house. In stature, charm and loyalty they were real, typical Canadians. In cheerfulness, accomplishment and geniality they were typical parliamentarians of this house. They may not be missed, since their seats will be filled, but I can say that they will be long remembered. During that time also, one gentleman from this side resigned his seat, and when I say "gentleman" everyone knows whom I mean. I refer to the Hon. Doctor Bruce.
The government then called elections to fill the vacancies, and I am now pleased to congratulate the winners and also to congratulate this side of the house on securing two or three most capable members.
The speech from the throne admits of varied forms of debate, its longitude being forty minutes and its latitude any distance or any subject of interest which the speaker or the constituency which he represents may desire to select. The speech from the throne is a governmental document prepared by the * cabinet and placed in the hands of His Excellency by his constitutional advisers; therefore any criticism of mine or any other member does not reflect in any way upon His Excellency the Governor General either in person or with regard to public affairs.
The speech from the throne, with its contents, is a programme, I might say, of indefinite policies and contains many speculations on what legislation may come before this house, but it is entirely void of any practical policy for the benefit of our country.
I wish to refer for a moment to some distinguished visitors who came to our province last summer. First of all, I would mention His Excellency the Governor General and Her Excellency the Viscountess Alexander of Tunis. Our province and people gave them a real welcome, only such as can be extended by that province, the garden of the gulf, and our

2Vie Address-Mr. McLure
veterans were pleased to add greatly to the celebration and the welcome they gave their soldier leader. Our idea in welcoming them was that they would return soon and visit us at greater length. That was our hope.
Another visitor I wish to mention-and we had a most pleasant visit from him-was the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier), accompanied by his excellent lady Madame Chevrier.
I am sure they were pleased with the honour and reception that our people extended to them. Then came the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Bridges) and some of his officials. We accorded them a real welcome- a maritime welcome to a maritimer. After that, we had the royal commission on Indian affairs, the chairman being the hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Brown). He was accompanied by quite a number of members of the commission and their wives. While the Minister of Transport was in our province, he spoke to a large meeting of the Rotary club. His address was a smooth, idealistic speech, well delivered, on the subject of transportation. It was good study propaganda not only for his own department-


James Horace King: I would ask hon. members to moderate their voices. I note with interest that hon. members can carry on conversations and listen to speakers at the same time. I am wondering if it is, after all, so necessary to have loud-speakers.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Thank you. Mr. Speaker.
I was saying, with reference to the speech delivered by the Minister of Transport, that it was good study propaganda for his department and government. Perhaps some of us, particularly myself, would rather have had him get down to the real problem of transportation as it affected our province. However we were glad to welcome him and regretted that his stay was so short, but he left us with the promise that he rvould come in another season without any time limit.
The Minister of Fisheries visited different parts of our province and spoke to the fishermen in the different localities he visited, and I must say that he dealt with the problems and the future of our fishing industry with a good deal of satisfaction to fishermen and others who listened to him. I am sorry the Minister of Fisheries is not in his seat at the moment, but I believe he made a little bit of ministerial departure when he spoke to a Liberal club in Prince county on the subject of Liberalism. The press was present, and the next day the paper that covers the island like the dew had an extended report of it. Whether these speeches of the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Fisheries were well timed 83166-791
for the benefit of the Summerside provincial by-election or not I do not know, but I do know that the Progressive Conservative candidate won. The Canadian National railway official, the Liberal candidate, was derailed, whil* the high school teacher came through with a win. I should like to refer to just one matter in connection with this provincial by-election and it is this. Up to the time this election was brought on, there was a shortage of refrigerator cars in connection with shipping but the Canadian National Railways, through somebody, had a surplus of those cars in Summerside and west, even to the discrimination of many other shipping points.
The royal commission on Indian affairs came at a time when they enjoyed real autumn weather. This commission visited the chief points which they were called upon to visit, but made an extended visit to Lennox island, the chief Indian reserve in our province. No doubt this commission will be making an interim report to the department, if they have not already done so. I hope that they looked carefully into the matter with the Indian chief at Lennox island brought before them, namely, political patronage with regard to government supplies for Indians. The complaint of the Indian chief, as given, was that when a permit was given for supplies the Indians were supposed to go to some government party store and buy what they wanted. There may be nothing wrong with that but, as the chief stated at the meeting of the commission, the Indians could not even get an itemized account. Surely it would be better if, when they are given their permit for supplies, they were allowed to go out and buy in whatever market they wish up to the full amount of their permit. I mention this only on behalf of those Indians who are getting those permits. It would make them seem more independent if they did not have to go to the government party stores to have the permit filled.
I would possibly be remiss in my duty, Mr. Speaker, if, in going over the distinguished visitors, I omitted the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) and his visit to Prince Edward Island. He came on a factfinding visit with reference to the tourist business and our transportation. I might say that nobody is more welcome to our province than is the hon. member for Davenport; and the last words which were shouted out to him when he was leaving the meeting, as he was on his way to the Borden ferry, were, "We hope you will come again, John R."
In the course of a great many of the debates which we hear in this house, and outside it as well, speakers emphasize the matter of unity.
The Address-Mr. McLure

Let me say that the unity of Canada is only as strong as the fulfilment of the terms of confederation. I believe in confederation. It has made some success; but how much greater would be that success if this young nation and each of its provinces could have the fulfilment of the terms of confederation. We seem to be drifting farther away from unity as the government legislates. We find the government seeking now, as they have been for the last six months, to set up centralization of government for Canada. This government has claimed the right to amend the British North America Act without the consent of the electors in the respective legislatures of the various provinces. What does that mean? It means that, if this government can do that, there is a certain amount of confidence lost in our confederation pact. The objective and aim of the fathers of confederation was for a united British North American nation, our Canada. But this objective and aim cannot be attained when the terms of union remain unfulfilled and ignored by this government, thus retarding progress and development, in particular with regard to my province.
I shall now come to a particular subject of my own which I have discussed before in this house on several occasions, namely, the truck freight rates on the Borden-Tormentine ferry. In dealing with this matter I do not wish to be misunderstood, because I want to be absolutely fair with regard to it. Last year I was accused of unfair criticism with respect to this transportation problem. However, it is all a matter of what we consider to be the meaning of the word "criticism". This was well defined by a soldier in the great war when he said, "I believe that the only practical thing one can do when a mistake is made is to take a crack at the man who made it." Then he summarized it all by stating a very simple, effective and concise maxim, "Scratch where it itches." The thing that itches us down home in our province is our transportation situation and the heavy and exorbitant freight rates on the ferry. On previous occasions I have endeavoured to deal with the unjust, discriminating truck freight rate on the Borden-Tormentine ferry; but now, in view of the findings of the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada tabled a few days ago, I certainly regret to read in the press across Canada, after the board rendered its judgment, headlines as follows: "Board ignores confederation pact entirely." On February 10, 1947, the Minister of Transport answered a question asked, as he stated, "by the junior member for Queens", 
regarding Borden-Tormentine freight truck rates, stating that the judgment of the board of transport commissioners had been rendered and would be printed for distribution immediately. Just to remind the house, this was a case of the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada holding a sitting on July 17 and 18 last at Charlottetown with respect to Canadian National freight rates on the Borden ferry. It must have been a very difficult decision to render, because the judgment took over two hundred days to be rendered and brought to this house. If the judgment is as long as the time it has taken, I am afraid it will be beyond my powers to peruse it. However there is one unique feature in connection with the rendering of this judgment: it seemed to be synchronized with the very day I asked my question. Strange, Mr. Speaker, that great minds had one common thought in view.
While I have not been favoured with a printed copy of the findings so that I may study them, the press has given their main features. What do we find? The Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada ignore the confederation pact by which we entered confederation, and in doing so they have rendered a judgment. However, to their credit let me say this one thing, that they made the implied admission that it was beyond their jurisdiction to consider the Borden-Tormentine ferry freight rates as part of the agreement between Prince Edward Island and the Dominion of Canada.
I protested the holding of the board meeting when it was held on July 17 last, on the ground that they had no jurisdiction. And I protest again at their findings because they are not in accordance with and under the terms of the confederation agreement of 1873. I have no quarrel at this time with the Canadian National - Railways. They are the subcontractors operating under a government mandate. I am quite sure that from their point of view the railway company has done its work well in the past winter with regard to freight. During all this winter, freight has been very heavy indeed. They have only one boat with a capacity of ten cars to take care of the great amount of freight involved. I might say that for the shipment of potatoes for British account it will require 3.000 cars, or 1,500 cars each way. In addition to this, freight is piling up, such as feeds, fertilizers, fuels, and the like, which have to be carried over.
The work of the Canadian National Railways has been good, and, as I said, I have no quarrel with them. They worked hard this winter, and did their best to carry the freight

__________ The Address-Mr. McLure
The railway men "who operate their trains are excellent men, who operate under the skilful guidance of their superintendent, Mr. Montgomery. However I can readily understand that the Canadian National Railways have no interest in the welfare of our province and the transportation problem involved in the Borden-Tormentine ferry. They are in business for themselves; therefore I am not basing my claim or lodging my charges against them.
Let me cite two cases to show that they are interested only in the Canadian National Railways. When the late Sir Henry Thornton, one-time president of the Canadian National Railways, and some of his officials, were giving evidence before the Andrew Rae Duncan commission at Charlottetown in 1926, what do we find was his attitude at that time? In his evidence the president stated that the Canadian National Railways were not concerned with the terms of confederation, but they were just given a mandate from the government solely to operate the ferry.
Then again, on October 24, 1945, before a meeting of the standing committee on railways and shipping we find a similar statement made by the president of the railways. At that time President Vaughan was being asked a number of questions by the hon. member for Rosedale (Mr. Jackman), and one of his questions was this:
Are the rates on the ferry high, and does the C.N.R. set them?	"
This is the reply given by the president of the railways:
We do not think the rates are unusually high. Of course everything that goes over on the ferry is in direct competition with the railway. We think we are generous in allowing the trucks to go on the ferry at all.
Let me repeat the last sentence, "We think we are generous in allowing the trucks to go on the ferry at all." That is the statement which came from the president of the railways, that they do not own, do not charter or do not maintain that ferry. Hon. members can now judge just how much interest they have in transportation rates on the Borden-Tormentine ferry.	.
In 1926 the Duncan commission, in its findings with respect to the cost of operation, stated that the car ferry accounting should be taken out of the hands of the Canadian National Railways, and the cost of operation should be charged to the consolidated revenue fund of Canada. The reason given for this recommendation was that it was working an injustice against Prince Edward Island.
I am sure hon. members will agree that this is conclusive evidence that the railway company should not be allowed to set the freight rates cost for the truck traffic transportation on the car ferry system, as they do today. Time does not permit my dealing fully with this question. Therefore I shall summarize a few of the points I have emphasized.
We entered the union in 1873. The terms of union with respect to transportation were as follows:
That the dominion government shall assume and defray all the charges for the following services, viz:-
Efficient steam service for the conveyance of mails and passengers, to be established and maintained between the island and the mainland of the dominion, winter and summer, thus placing the island in continuous communication with the Intercolonial railway and the railway system of the dominion;
And such other charges as may be incident to, jmd connected with, the services which by the 'British North America Act, 1867," appertain to to general government, and as are or may be allowed to the other provinces.
From 1873 to 1915 Prince Edward Island dealt with dominion governments and pleaded with them for the fulfilment of the terms, but to practically no avail. Then in 1915 the Borden government of that day inaugurated the Borden-Tormentine system, which was a beginning toward implementing the transportation agreement. Then the operation of the Borden-Tormentine ferry was turned over to the C.N.R., and the federal government was to pay all deficits in connection with the operation. In 1919, when our mode of traffic changed with the advent of motor cars and motor trucks, our real problems showed up. Arbitrary rates were set for conveying motor cars and trucks. The charges for conveying motor cars for a return trip was $7, plus sixty cents for each passenger, and this for a distance of eighteen miles. In 1931, when the late R. J. Manion was minister of railways and canals, the Prince Edward Island government appealed to him and he reduced the rate from $7 to 83 without any board of transport commissioners being called in to adjudicate. He dealt directly, as was his right to do, with the government of Prince Edward Island.
I should like to mention a few of the prohibitive rates. I am not going into detail because I put these on the record before. A five-ton truck load of first-class commodities cost $60.65 for the return trip; for second-class commodities the rate is $54.65; for third-class, $50.65, and for fourth-class, $44.65. Those are prohibitive rates. A truck driver told me one day that, if he bought a new truck and made a trip a day, at the end of the month the Canadian National Railways would own the truck as well as himself.
The Address-Mr. McLure

In 1945 the matter of setting rates for the Borden-Tormentine ferry was placed before this house, and at that time the house was informed by the Minister of Transport, as reported on page 3685 of Hansard of 1945, that the Minister of Transport could not set the rate; this in spite of the fact that the former minister of railways and canals had reduced the rates by sixty per cent.
Let me refer again to the board of transport commissioners. They sat in Charlottetown on July 17 and 18 last and there listened to the evidence and rendered their decision. That verdict was not in accordance with the terms of confederation. Under the British North America Act the dominion parliament, and it alone, through the Minister of Transport of the government in power, has the exclusive authority over all matters such as rates, et cetera, on ferries between a province and any British or foreign country. I made my protest on those two points.
Such ferries should be treated as national highways under the pact of 1873. There is nothing in the Railway Act which gives the board of transport commissioners jurisdiction to determine rates, charges, et cetera on an interprovincial ferry which the railway does not own, does not charter or does not maintain. I am not going to take up much more of your time, Mr. Speaker, but in conclusion I wish to say that when we entered confederation in 1873 the aim of all parties to that contract of agreement was that there should be no barrier to interprovincial trade simply because my province of Prince Edward Island was an island.
I claim that the water route from Borden to Tormentine, a distance of nine miles, should be in effect a national highway. If there is to be a charge at all it should be based on the normal cost of moving freight over an equivalent mileage on land. This should be done without waiting for the completion of the new ferry. Both leaders of the two major parties agree with me. In 1941 the Hon. Charles A. Dunning, who represented Queens county, spoke there on our transportation problems. No doubt speaking with the authority of his leader, he said:	"It is in the bond of agreement
and it must be fulfilled." My leader on this side of the house agrees with that, because he has said:	"We believe that the water
route from Borden to Cape Tormentine should be in effect a national highway and must be treated as such."
Is it any wonder that we are dissatisfied with the shameful betrayal of our island's interests by the powers that be at Ottawa? Again I charge this government with gross

indifference and negligence in dealing with our ferry transportation problem. I shall give the house more of this a little later.


Mr. E. L. BOWERMAN (Prince Albert):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to take part in this debate I do so because this debate affords an opportunity to hon. members who may feel so disposed to bring to the attention of the government matters of particular interest to their constituents as well as matters concerning the nation as a whole. I shall be brief, for all that I desire to do at this stage of the debate is to lend support to my colleagues who have so ably defended the needs of agriculture and labour, as well as the interests of our veterans and senior citizens, and to place before the government matters which concern my own constituency.
I should like to call to the attention of the Postmaster General (Mr. Bertrand) that the citizens of Prince Albert constituency have waited too long for the promised improvements in our postal facilities in the city and the territory surrounding it. In an area as large as most constituencies across Canada, with a population of nearly 47,000, there is not one rural free delivery route in the constituency. The postal facilities for the city itself are not what they should be for a city the size of Prince Albert and the territory it serves. Then again, all those who are so faithful in seeing that the mail gets through in all kinds of weather; in our city and from the railway points to inland post offices, whether in the offices or delivering, are paid far too little for the arduous tasks they perform. Especially those couriers who, through all kinds of weather, carry the mail from railway points to inland post offices. They, too, should come under the bonus arrangements provided for by this house and, when the Postmaster General's estimates are before us, we shall continue to press this matter further.
I should also like, Mr. Speaker, through you to call to the attention of the Minister of Transport the petition from the citizens of the city of Prince Albert to the Canadian National for a new railway station. The present building is entirely inadequate in every way. It does not meet the need of the railways themselves, particularly the government-owned railway, for efficient and proper handling of the passenger and express service of the city and the vast territory surrounding it, particularly to the north and west. The petition sets forth clearly and precisely the need and furnishes the statistical data which proves conclusively the immediate need of such an undertaking on the part of our government owned railway.

The Address-Mr. Bowerman
I would urge the Minister of Transport to give the matter his careful and considerate attention.
Then there is the matter of the Prince Albert national park, one of the most beautiful of nature's playgrounds in all Canada. We in Saskatchewan and the north central part in particular, feel that the government has failed to provide the means for developing the park to the extent that should have been done. There was perhaps good reason for this during the war years. But now that is behind us and we are looking toward the future. Thousands more Americans from the middle western states would spend their vacations at the park were roads and park facilities such as they should and very well could be. Money spent along these lines wouldi pay not only dividends in good United States money, but dividends beyond measure in neighbourly good will and understanding that cannot be measured in dollars and cents. I hope that the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Glen) will keep this matter in mind, for we hope to deal more in detail with it when his estimates are in committee.
I should also like to say in passing that Prince Albert is still waiting for the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Howe) to fulfil the promise which he made regarding runways for the airport when he was in the -city prior to the last election.
There is another more urgent and pressing matter which I wish to bring to the attention of the government, particularly the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie) and the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell), who are not in their seats at the moment. It has to do with the vocational school in Prince Albert. I have discussed the matter with the Minister of Labour and I am hoping that he and his colleagues will reconsider their decision to close this school on April 15. In letters just received from the president of the student council of the school and a prominent member of the city council, they ask that the government give these pre-matriculation students, fourteen in number, all of whom are veterans, a better break. They feel that the psychological effect of change of domicile from one city to another 110 miles distant, with the fear of unsuitable housing accommodation being found, the change of instructors, adapting themselves to new surroundings, with their examinations or tests only two months away, is disturbing, to say the least, and might easily result in their failing to pass their examinations. I believe that these veterans and their families have earned the right to better treatment. The government can well afford, in
view of the small cost, to continue this school until the expiration of the term in June. Surely the government can at least be as generous as the instructors who, I am informed, have offered to continue to teach without salary in order that these men, the pick of this school, may have every opportunity to finish without hindrance to their studies. Mr. Speaker, through you, I again urge the ministers concerned to continue this school until the end of June when the veterans will have completed their studies and finished their tests.


Lewis Menary: Mr. Speaker, speaking in the house last session I put on record that I was in favour of increased pensions for persons over sixty years of age. I also stated that there should be a contributory pension plan. If each Canadian desiring this type of pension were to contribute one dollar a month from the age of twenty-one, or $12 a year, at the age of sixty he would have contributed $468, and if the government duplicated these payments the amount would be $936. If the man or woman lived to the age of sixty and kept up the payments, with the government contributions, they would amount to $1,785.62; and at sixty-five years of age the fund would amount to $1,906.47. The contributor should then receive $50 a month without any means test.
We must remember that our people to whom the government would start to pay these annuities were born in the seventies and eighties of the last century. Many of them started to build their homes around 1900 to 1910. They struggled to build their homes and rear their families through some trying periods. Surely, in view of the great development of her resources, Canada will not continue to allow her people to suffer want or hardship as they come to the eventide of life. These people have helped to make Canada what she is today, a great and prosperous country. In this connection I wish to put on record an item from the Guelph Mercury, one of the leading papers in western Ontario. It says:
A'ears ago old age pensions wrere looked upon as the rankest kind of socialism. The view of many persons, was that every man should provide for his old age or suffer the inevitable consequences.
In this enlightened age, however, it is recognized that many factors enter into success or failure and that the most well-intentioned person in the world may suffer reverses that will leave him. in the autumn of life, with not enough funds for actual existence, and the same set of circumstances holds true, of course, for women.
It may he argued, of course, that the old age pensions set something of a premium on carelessness, and might have the effect of making
The Address-Mr. Menary

many persons less anxious to provide tor their idle years. Perhaps in some eases this will be found true. It would not be sufficient reason to refrain from continuing and increasing this payment of such first rate importance to a large number of deserving people.
According to statistics, the life expectancy of every Canadian is a little over sixty-four years, and it is said that the number of persons in the United States who are over sixty-five years is growing year by year. Even if our average expectancy of life exceeds that of any other people, it falls far short of what we have a right to expect. It is generally accepted that the life span of any animal should be approximately five times the length of the period required to reach maturity. A horse, for instance, matures at five years of age and lives to about twenty-five. A man should live to 100 years of age, if he is well looked after and is free from worries when he is sixty. There is considerable evidence to support the conclusion that man should live a healthy and active life until he is 100 years old, but the confusion, competition, disappointment, and unhealthful factors in their surroundings have made many city dwellers old at the age of fifty. We have good reason to believe that the average resident of our rural districts lives to a greater age than the average city dweller, but we are living in an industrial era. Science has not yet succeeded in guaranteeing good health into the old age of any of our citizens and, until this is achieved we, the members of this parliament, must not shirk our duty. We must adequately provide for all those Canadians no longer able to care for themselves.
In spite of the time that has elapsed since the end of the war, many urgent problems of our veterans remain unsolved. Many of them are finding it difficult to establish themselves in civilian life. In my riding hundreds of men have come back from the armed forces. Some have gone into farming, others into industry and business. I wish to mention three cases. A young lad of eighteen went overseas. He was a butcher, and when he came back he started in the butcher business again. He found it hard to get meat from the packers, and he could not secure a slaughtering permit. Our friends of the wartime prices and trade board said that he did not qualify for a slaughtering permit. He wrote to me to see if I could help him. I took the matter up with the wartime prices and trade board and they listed the various things which the young man could not get. This young man had a wife and they were both trying to establish a home. One day I dropped in to see him and he was very much discouraged. I asked him how much meat he had had 
lately and he replied that during the last three weeks he had had one-quarter of beef-one-quarter of beef to run a butcher shop. He said that the hospital rang up one morning and wanted 10 or 15-pound roasts. He said that if he had sold them what they wanted he would have had very little left for his other customers. It seems to me that these regulations are making it difficult for our young men to get a decent start in life.
Two other young men in my riding returned from overseas and tried to start an electrical wiring business. They met the same problem, no quota. They had not been in business before. They were helped out through the kindness of a hardware merchant who, since he had been in business for a long time, was able to get some material, although not half enough to keep these two boys going.
Another young man who spent five years in the air force purchased a retail lumber yard in my riding. He informs me that he can get plenty of work, but on account of the various controls the necessary lumber cannot be obtained. Everyone knows that a black market exists in lumber. If controls are taken off, prices may rise but not for long, because the public are shopping around. There is not the wild scramble that took place in war years. The lifting of controls is necessary to help our trade, and it will reroute lumber into legitimate channels. Only by taking off these controls can we help the thousands of returned boys who are finding that even if they purchase a business they are held in straitjackets by controls administered by a lot of bureaucrats who probably would not hold their positions had they been able to run a business of their own.
Various housing schemes have been mentioned in this chamber. I come from a small town of about nine hundred to one thousand people. When I hear speakers mention houses of 88,000, $9,000 or $10,000 I can hardly see the picture at all. Just before I came here I was talking to a merchant. I said: "Clarence, when are you going to move into your house?" He said, "Oh, in about two weeks." I said, "What did it cost you, Clarence?" He has a beautiful little house; it has a cement cellar under all of it, a bathroom with all the necessary fixtures, hardwood floors, and it is built of dressed lumber. It has two rooms upstairs and three downstairs. He said it cost him $4,500. When I hear of the poor soldiers paying $6,000 or $7,000 for a house I do not see how they are going to do so. There is another house up the street built by a Mr. Geer. He has been living in it for about two

The Address-Mr. Hlynka
months. I understand that it cost him around $4,500, and it is a splendid little house. I was in it and it-is well finished inside.
I wish to join with hon. members on this side of the house in support of the stand that all controls, except that of rent, should be abolished. They have become irksome to the people of Canada. All our citizens were willing to help in all ways to win the struggle which engulfed our country in 1939, but now the war is over and we wish to return to private enterprise. Controllers quite often find themselves leaning toward dictatorship and the longer these controls continue, the closer we will approach this form of government which, I am sure, is undesirable to the majority of Canadians.


Mr. ANTHONY HLYNKA (Vegreville):: In the course of the present debate several hon. members on both sides of the house have placed their stand on record on the question of freight rates now being heard by the board of transport commissioners. I should like also to take this opportunity to make clear the position of the Social Credit group on this important question, and I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I shall not transgress the rules of the house.
In the Alberta brief on dominion-provincial relations entitled, "The Case for Alberta" issued in 1938, the social crediters have stated their position clearly on the question of freight rates as recorded on pages 142 to 178 inclusive. In the thirty-six pages devoted to the discussion of freight rates many examples of inequities under which the prairie provinces have suffered are cited. It is pointed out, for example, that the people of Alberta are paying the highest freight charges of any province on goods exported from other provinces, and on practically all incoming goods. This results in an addition to the cost of production, which addition is not recovered in the price the farmer receives from the sale of his products, thereby diminishing his income, It also results in a smaller return to the farmer.
Recognizing this discrimination against the western provinces, "The Case for Alberta" recommended equalization and a downward revision of freight rates structure. That, Mr. Speaker, remains the position which members of the Social Credit group take. In other words this group will keep on pressing for equalization and complete overhauling of the freight rates structure in Canada. However we are also not unmindful of the fact that it is in the interest of our national economy to have smoothly and efficiently running railways. If it can be shown that it is absolutely necessary for the railways to have additional
revenue to operate efficiently we would not object to any justifiable adjustment, but definitely not at the expense of the prairie provinces or of any one part of Canada. The load should be borne equally by the whole nation.
To determine the financial position of the railways we would urge that a royal commission be appointed, on which western agriculture should be given representation, and that the problem be studied and reported back to this parliament. It would be up to the government and to the railways to supply the house with accurate figures as to the earnings and operation costs to enable members of parliament to vote intelligently. Failing this, the Social Credit group will oppose any upward revision of the freight rates structure and will continue to press for a downward revision and equalization of freight rates for the entire country.


Mr. C. W. HODGSON (Victoria, Ont.):: In taking part in this debate I do so with a great deal of interest as a lumberman and on behalf of my constituents. Like practically every other hon. member, I have received many letters and telegrams on the decontrol of various products, especially lumber. In doing so, I am at the same time taking the chance of putting my own business in the bad graces of the control bureaucracy, because it is well understood that the department can make it very miserable for anyone in the lumber business if they so desire. However I shall confine my few remarks mainly to timber control. Timber control has become the home of the greatest swivel-chair bureaucracy of all times. They are becoming red-tape specialists. They have added more rigid control in the past year than we had during the whole time of the war period.
As regards control experts, somebody has defined an expert as one who is seldom right but never in doubt. I suggest that a good definition would probably be that they are just ordinary people away from home. At any rate, they set up a price of approximately $40 for hemlock. Now, anyone who knows anything about lumbering will realize that hemlock cannot be produced in Ontario or Quebec for that price. The net result has been, first, that lumbermen have been forced on the black market in different respects, and, second, that they leave their stands of hemlock and work in other species out of which they can make some profit. Therefore hemlock which is needed so badly for housing, is not being taken out. The lumbermen of today are sound business people, very few of them being fly-by-night opportunists.
The Address-Mr. Hodgson

As far as exports are concerned, I believe the government has to allow the exporting of lumber to some degree, I would say about forty per cent, because in the eastern part of Canada you have lumbering that depends on the export trade, as the freight haul to central Canada is too great compared with the distance to the ocean and the United States. The same applies to western Canada, British Columbia in particular.
Central Canada does get and use some British Columbia lumber, gjenerally large and long square timber at large and long prices, or the low end, which they have a surplus of and can afford to sell at cheaper prices.
Then for Ontario and Quebec, exportation is mostly of selects, first and seconds in the heavier stock of hardwoods, which has always been in the export trade and not used to any great extent in Canada, and definitely not in housing. No. 2 and 3 com. hardwood is used in the manufacture of flooring.
I say, therefore, that the exporting of lumber does not affect our housing schemes to the degree for which it gets credit. The whole question of housing, or any other industry for that matter, is production. Therefore, if encouragement can be given to the lumber industry to produce, and a feeling of good will established, rather than the sour, disgruntled taste which is in every lumberman's mind against controls, that encouragement should be given, because lumbermen feel that, since they stayed with the ship through the war, they should now have some relief.
In my constituency there are veterans and others who have gone to the bush to take out logs, but now they find that they cannot get nails and other necessary materials with which to build homes. There are no supplies in the country. In fact, there is not a storekeeper in the country who has a nail to sell. While the war was on, we put up with controls and did our best to produce lumber under those conditions. Now that the war has been over for two years, there is not the same patriotic feeling prevailing among producers. In my riding there are five mills that are not taking out lumber this year and this will mean a difference of five million feet in one riding alone. If the same thing happens throughout Canada there will be a considerable falling off in production, running into hundreds of millions of feet.
Two lumbermen from my constituency have gone south for the winter. One, who is in Texas, wrote to me a few days ago and said that roping steers in Texas is a lot more fun than roping logs in four feet of snow and 
thirty degrees below zero. The other is in California. He said he was going to start picking oranges and would probably make enough in that way to pay his trip expenses.
The less efficiency there is, the more controls are added. For instance, if a lumberman wants to sell lumber to one of his old reliable customers or anyone else, he must submit four copies of the order to the timber controller's office for approval and authorization. Then, as each car goes forward, he must send a copy of each invoice for each car to the timber controller's office. They reserve the right to inspect these cars at destination or anywhere en route. Quite often a car is held for several days waiting for the inspector to arrive, and when he does finally get there, the chances are he knows very little about the grading or inspection of hardwood lumber, for out of every ten inspectors who were put on this job there were about two who could qualify to grade lumber.
Timber control was first inaugurated in 1940 and price control came in eighteen months later. H. R. MacMillan was the first controller. He knew the lumber industry and he got around him men who knew their jobs. True, he was a dollar a year man and he stayed only one year. In a little over six years of timber control there have been seven controllers. Only two of these knew anything about the lumber business: MacMillan and Nicholson. The last one or the immediate past one, was a hotelkeeper; then he practised law and then became a soldier. He was married to a well known politician's daughter, rapidly rose in the service, and became timber controller.
Since the war, the employees MacMillan brought into the timber control have mostly gone back to their bid jobs, and today we have an organization operating that has only one employee who knows or ever had anything to do with the lumber industry. I ask the minister to name one, except this old gentleman in the person of Malcolm MacNickoI, who did have something to do with a small retail business, but his experience was only in one phase of the industry and his outlook is limited.
All the outstandingly able assistants have retired, and the persons replacing them are men not overly confident of their ability to compete in industry and who would rather keep their hand on the doorknob of some patronage job.
When timber control came in as a war measure the government passed orders in council to ensure that controls would be free from political interference, influence or dicta-

The Address-Mr. Hodgson
tion, and each control immediately set up machinery for consultation with industry. Now with the close of hostilities, two years past, with the emergency of war forgotten, what have we? A general admission that decisions on matters of control are matters of political policy.
The decision as to whether or not control should come off lumber is not a question of whether or not it is to the interest of the lumber industry, but rather how it will affect votes. An analysis of these facts will give the answer to why controls are failing and will continue to fail. They have outlived their usefulness, and their continuance is a menace to the success of the whole lumbering economy as well as a handicap to other industries dependent on lumber supply. The lumber industry has no say in and no responsibility toward a control policy, and there is a condition of chaos and frustration developing, which can be corrected only by abolishing control and a return to unhampered free trading.
The lumbering business is a basic one, which holds a top-ranking position in the Canadian economy. Rather than that being the reason why decontrol of this great industry cannot be judged on its merits, it is all the more reason why forest products should be freed from restrictions which are hampering its activities.
Surely the industry has first-hand knowledge of the harm which the continuation of controls is working, and can judge the effects which the elimination of controls would have. The war is over; the justification of control regulations no longer exists, and the quicker obstacles to the normal lumber trade are removed, the better. Wage controls have disappeared and food prices have increased. The very fact that the industry is unanimous for decontrol should be sufficient. At the Canadian lumbermen's convention held in Montreal on February 10, 11 and 12-the largest group of lumbermen ever assembled in Canada- they met in separate groups representing six different organizations of the lumbering industry, which included bush and sawmill operators, retail and wholesale dealers and so on. They voted in separate groups for the removal of controls and in the general meeting they were unanimous to have controls removed at once, there being not one dissenting vote out of over fifteen hundred delegates. Can the government honestly believe that such a bureaucracy as has been set up in Ottawa can run all the lumber industry in Canada better than the lumbermen themselves? I am convinced that, unless controls are removed immediately, there is now and will be further
decreases in the production of lumber. This will cause a decrease in employment in the industry itself and in every other industry depending upon a supply of lumber. Certainly, viewed from a sound business or economic point of view, the prompt withdrawal of controls would be a sound and logical move. I put some questions on the order paper on February 13, but they have not yet been answered so that I cannot tell what the cost of controls is.
I know, however, that it runs into a great deal of money that is unnecessarily spent.
I wish to say a word now on taxation of soft drinks. The soft drinks industry collects forty per cent, or two cents a bottle, and pays it to the dominion treasury. It does not help the industry and, moreover, the soft drinks are paid for mostly by children. The hon. member for London said that the baby bonus was given to help the children to buy soft drinks, but he added that it was like giving a child ten cents to go to bed and taking it away from him while he slept.
There is another aspect to this matter. While the war was on, our children were buying war savings stamps and they contributed a great deal of money to the war requirements at that time. I think it was a good thing because it created in the child a sense of patriotic duty. I know when the children came home with their first stamp they were pleased, and when they got enough for a certificate they were pleased and proud of it. Now, when they go to the store and have to pay that two cents extra on pop, I wonder if this government are helping the confidence of the children and that patriotic feeling? Are they not creating a feeling in the child's mind that he is paying for his own bond all over again with every bottle of pop that he consumes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker,
I wish to intervene briefly in this debate only for the reason that certain members of my staff have been attacked personally; otherwise I would not take the remarks of my hon. friend seriously. I think the attack on the timber control is the first honest attack that has been made in this house. It is an attack by a lumberman defending his own pocketbook. That is at least an honest position.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, that remark
is out of order and should be withdrawn.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not at all. I am going to
develop the subject.


Howard Charles Green: The minister is imputing
motives there, and his statement should be withdrawn.

The Address-Mr. Howe


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not at all. What about his attack on the honesty of the timber controller?


Howard Charles Green: The minister has no right
to attack a member of this house or to impute motives to him, and that is exactly what the minister is doing. The trouble with the minister is that he cannot take his medicine, either tonight or any other night.


William Henry Golding: I am sure the minister will withdraw anything that can be considered as an attack on the hon. member.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Do you not consider
it an attack? We should like to have your ruling.


William Henry Golding: I would ask the hon. member to take his seat for a moment and allow the minister to explain.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: On a point of order-


William Henry Golding: The minister was just rising to speak. I would ask the hon. member to just wait for a moment or two.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: If the minister is speaking on a point of order, I shall take my seat and await my turn.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker-


Harry Rutherford Jackman: No. Are you speaking
on the point of order?


Clarence Decatur Howe: What is the point of order?


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Mr. Speaker, the point
of order is-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Sit down. Mr. Speaker is
on his feet.


William Henry Golding: Are you speaking on a point of order?


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Yes. The minister has been asked to withdraw an imputation he made against my hon. colleague.


Lionel Chevrier: That is not a point of order.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Then, to be precise, it
is a question of privilege. The minister has been asked to withdraw a remark which was an imputation against a colleague of mine in this house. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, if you will make your ruling and ask the minister to withdraw his imputation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Speaking to the question of
privilege, Mr. Speaker, I would remind you that the hon. member said that he was speaking on his own behalf; he started oil by saying that he is a lumberman and speaking on his own behalf.


Howard Charles Green: He did not say anything
of the kind.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If he spoke on his own
behalf, he was speaking as a lumberman and on behalf of his own industry.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: The minister is altogether wrong. I happened to have managed a business last year which did not make any money, and it was a lumber business.


Howard Charles Green: I want to point out very
clearly that the minister has said that the hon. member was speaking to protect his pocketbook.


Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):: Absolutely.


Howard Charles Green: That is imputing motives of the worst kind; and no member of the house, from the Prime Minister down, has a right to make a statement of that kind. I submit to Your Honour that the minister must withdraw that statement.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, I again submit, with all due respect, that I think I am simply repeating the. hon. member's own words.


Alan Cockeram: Withdraw.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Withdraw nothing.


William Henry Golding: When the point of order was raised by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) I did state that I felt sure that, if the minister had said anything that was an attack on the hon. member who had been speaking, he would gladly withdraw.


An hon. MEMBER:: But he did not do so.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, I will substitute for my words, the exact words used by the hon. member.


An hon. MEMBER:: No, no; withdraw.


Alan Cockeram: We want complete withdrawal.


Clarence Decatur Howe: W'hat did the hon. member say? Will he tell us again what he said? He said he was speaking on behalf of his own business.


Howard Charles Green: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the minister must withdraw that remark. We want your ruling as to whether the minister must withdraw.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not on your say-so, though.


William Henry Golding: If hon. members will allow the minister to proceed, I think we shall have the matter straightened out.


Howard Charles Green: We want a withdrawal.

The Address-Mr. Howe


Gordon Knapman Fraser: You said he was to withdraw the statement, Mr. Speaker, and he has not withdrawn it yet.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, I was simply in my humble way quoting the exact words of the hon. member. If I misquoted them, I withdraw the misquotation. But he said he was speaking on behalf of his own business.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: No, I did not.


Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):: The lumber industry.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, speaking on a point of order, where any member of this house, from the Prime Minister down, says that an hon. member is speaking to protect his pocketbook, that remark should be withdrawn; and we would ask that the minister withdraw that remark without any qualifications.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, I will withdraw, Mr. Speaker. I have no desire to prolong the discussion. However, I do say this. This country is made up of several classes of people. It -is made up of lumbermen, who deserve a great deal of consideration. I have a great many friends in the industry and have a high regard for the part that the industry is taking in the industrial life of Canada. But there are two considerations: one is the price for the lumberman and the other is the price for the consumer. The dishonest part of the advocates of decontrol of lumber is that they do not state both sides of the question. They state the effect on the lumbermen, but thej' do not state the effect on the consumer. I will say this for the industry: the delegations that visited me are fair about the thing. When asked what the effect on prices will be, they say that prices will go up.


Howard Charles Green: So will production.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, I will talk about production in a moment. There is some advantage in decontrol, and I am not at all begoted on the subject, but is decontrol worth the price from the consumer's point of view? How much will prices go up? I can tell you this. The controlled price of lumber for domestic purposes on the west coast, the wholesale price for square timbers and boards, is $29 a thousand. The wholesale price of the same timber for export is $81 a thousand. The difference there is $52 a thousand. I have never had anyone suggest to me that, with decontrol, the domestic price would not go up to the export price. That is the effect on the consumer. In other words, decontrol of west coast timber would probably result in an
advance of $52 a thousand. That is a high price for the consumer to pay. What is the difference today in the interior? Not as great, but a matter of perhaps $30 to $35 a thousand. A similar differential applies throughout eastern Canada. Surely there is a real argument as to whether the great bulk of our people will profit more from decontrol and an advance in price than they will under the present system. Another factor that is associated with control is the power to direct lumber into essential construction. My hon. friends opposite have been very firm in their opinions that the construction of non-essential buildings should be prohibited. I have said several times that that is impractical, for the reason that no group of men can agree with each other as to what type of building is unessential. But we offer as a substitute for prohibition the support of the government in routing materials into essential building.
That power, of course, would disappear with decontrol of the articles affected. Another freedom that people are not willing to part with-people in the lumber industry-is the right to export timber. If lumber is to be decontrolled, it should be wholly decontrolled. That is, take off all controls and let the Canadian people bid against the outside buyers. In other words, if lumber is going to the world price, let it be a free market. No member of the trade will agree to that. They say, "No, you must take off the kind of control I do not like, but keep the control I do like." That is the position of my hon. friend, who said today that we should maintain export control, and let 40 per cent of the lumber in this country be exported, which is a little more than is being exported at the present time. That would mean a tight domestic market . and no control, and a certainty that the domestic price would go to the export price.
That is the other side of the argument. I represent an average constituency in this country. I have lumbermen, lots of them. I have pulp and paper mills, and I have consumers. And I believe that the present course is the course that represents the greatest good for the greatest number and fair treatment for all.
My hon. friend says that the lumber industry is unanimous in asking that the controls be removed. In that he is entirely mistaken.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: The convention did.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not know who attended the convention; but the delegation which came to see me, to bring a message from the convention, were positive in saying that they did not represent the manufacturers on the west coast. I happen to know that the largest
The Address-Mr. Howe

manufacturer on the west coast made a trip throughout Canada, met all his dealers, and expressed his opinion to his dealers that the control now being maintained is in the best interests of the industry, and should be continued.


Howard Charles Green: It is only the big fellows who say that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, the big fellows cut a very large proportion of the lumber in this country.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Is that H.R.?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. And I have also had a visit from his largest competitor, who has told me much the same thing.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Who was
that ?


Clarence Decatur Howe: 
Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Where did he get his
experience?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Where did you get yours? Our timber controllers have all been men who have put forth great effort and, I suggest, contributed great skill in the administration of timber control. I have never heard anyone stand up in public before and accuse those men of dishonesty, as my hon. friend did tonight. It. is all very well to accuse-


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I did not do that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: You certainly did.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: On a question of privilege, I ask you to withdraw that. I did not accuse them of dishonesty.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend said he was risking his business to stand up in this house and discuss timber control because-


Alan Cockeram: Because they put him out of business.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are perfectly honest men who would-do that, are they? W'e have a great concert, over here, people liking to talk, thinking these men are not defended, and then resenting it when something is said about it.


Howard Charles Green: And with a great little dictator across there, too.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am not going to discuss this matter further. I just wish to dispel the idea which has been advanced by the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming), and by the last speaker, that the removal of timber controls would bestow blessing on all our citizens, without cost. It may be well to call attention to the cost, which I think the ordinary consumer will wish to understand before he takes a position regarding the removal of timber controls.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I ask a question?

The Address-Mr. Stuart


Clarence Decatur Howe: When I get through. My hon. friend talks about the great expansion of industry that would occur with the control removed. Let me tell him this, that if he will look at production figures for the last three years he will find that a substantial expansion in the industry is taking place under timber control. And I venture to say that a removal of the controls would not be a great factor in that direction. I say that with a good deal of knowledge of the situation, because I have been studying it carefully for the last several years.
Having said all that, I will say that the subject of the removal of controls is not closed. The situation is being carefully studied. And if those in charge of timber control and those responsible for the administration of the department come to the conclusion that the position will be improved by the removal of control, then control will be removed. But when I say that, let me say that we see nothing in the immediate situation which would lead us to that conclusion.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The question I would like to put to the minister is this: Is he willing that a parliamentary committee should b'e appointed to hear at first hand the evidence of such persons as he has referred to concerning the proper time for the removal of timber controls?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have always understood that the government is responsible for the administration of this country, and that its custom is not to delegate that responsibility to a committee. The government must make its own decisions as to its policy with regard to timber controls.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I take it the answer is "no"?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Mr. A. W. STUART (Charlotte):: Mr. Speaker, I did not intend to take part in this debate, but there have been certain information and criticism brought to my attention which I feel must be answered in order that the citizens of my own county may be protected. One department that has been severely criticized by many hon. members of the opposition during this debate is the Department of Veterans Affairs, and the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie), particularly with regard to veterans housing.
I have listened attentively to the debate, and the impression I get is that in their criticism hon. members have left with many of us on this side of the house the definite idea that contractors and those engaged in the
building trade in Ontario and western Canada should hang their heads in shame. It has amused me to see how cleverly an attempt has been made to place on the government's doorstep full responsibility for the condition of some veterans houses in western Canada and at the same time protect those directly responsible for this condition-the contractors themselves.
We in eastern Canada have had a shortage of building materials owing to the greatly increased demand, and in many cases it has been found necessary to make use of inferior materials in the building of veterans homes and those for civilian use as well. The home owner was fully aware of this condition, and I am convinced that in no way were these particular materials camouflaged in order to deceive the purchaser. Many veterans homes are under construction in the county of Charlotte and many have been completed. I feel confident that the contractors responsible for the erection of these homes were conscientious and that the welfare of the veteran received every consideration.
If the information disclosed during this debate relative to veterans housing is correct, deceit and fraud are evident in the building trade in western Canada and some hon. members of this house are endeavouring to camouflage the evidence, no doubt for political purposes, by placing full responsibility upon the government. If those directly responsible, that is the contractors, were dealt with as they should be the citizens would be apprised of those involved in this nefarious and shameful practice. By such action, not only would the veterans be protected but so would our entire population. I am pleased to state that in Charlotte county this condition does not exist, and in no way could those responsible for the building of veterans houses be associated with those engaged in a like occupation in western Canada.
We have on this side of the house a veteran of the last war who is directly connected with the building of veterans homes. If such accusations as have been made in this house were directed against the company with which he is associated they would not go by unanswered. Knowing him as I do, I can assure the house that he would not tolerate any man or any group of men who would take unfair advantage of any veteran.
In one breath hon. members opposite are saying that the government should reduce the personnel of departments in order to cut expenditures. Then suggestions are made to increase the staff by way of inspectors to watch over these big-hearted contractors in their own constituencies who are defrauding these young
The Address-Mr. Stuart

men who, as one member stated, went into the very jaws of death to protect you and me and have come back to receive nothing but lip service. That lip service is coming from some of the hon. members opposite wh o, during this entire debate, have been most critical, but who have made few suggestions of a constructive nature.
Unlike those engaged in the building trade in western Canada, the Minister of Veterans Affairs-I think all will agree with this-is very much interested in the welfare of thousands of returned veterans in every part of this great country. If he and his department received a little more cooperation from hon. members, instead of criticism which is not of a constructive nature, it would be of great benefit to the war veterans and would save much time in this chamber. In no way do I wish to criticize those responsible for the decision made to repair veterans homes at the expense of the taxpayers. The veteran should never be obliged to replace faulty materials or correct defects of any kind.
However, if it is found that the contractor is legally responsible, irrespective of the type of contract, be it cost-plus or management fee, he should be held accountable for all defects. Under contracts of this kind he is protected from loss in every way and the Canadian public should be given the same protection. Under such contracts it is not excusable that faulty workmanship should be found, especially if the contractors have the interests of the war veterans in their hearts. Six or seven hundred thousand dollars is a lot of money for the public to furnish to cover up blunders and defects which apparently are evident in the construction of veterans homes in certain parts of this country. I regret that such a situation does exist. I regret also that citizens of this country are associated with such a scandal. Men of this type are not good citizens, and I have little regard for any person who would deliberately and ill-advisedly wrong, cheat or defraud a veteran of this dominion who has given so much for which we should all be thankful. In many cases the particular veteran may have left a brother on the other side.
When the hon. member for Lambton West (Mr. Murphy) was speaking on this subject he gave the name of a construction company responsible for housing conditions in his riding, and he had this to say, as reported on page 108 of Hansard:
I regret to say to this house that my friends built these houses, and I feel very badly because I must stand up here and tell the house and the people of Canada of such home construction for veterans. But if I am to be entitled to be elected to represent my constituency, or any

other hon. members are entitled to be elected, our duty to our country comes before our duty to our friends.
I congratulate the hon. member for Lambton West upon his outspoken statement. If detailed information were given in every case the publicity might be responsible for a great improvement in the housing situation. I disagree with only one portion of his statement. The hon. member stated that his friends had built these houses. I would hesitate to say that men responsible for defrauding the war veterans of this country were my friends. If they will take advantage of a veteran, what chance has a civilian?
In conclusion, may I say that we have very little in the maritime provinces that people in central and western Canada can make use of. We have always been obliged to look elsewhere for our export markets, but in this particular case, if it is impossible to find honest men in the construction business in this part of Canada, or honest inspectors, come down to the maritimes. I assure you that that type of man can be found there. True to maritime tradition we are always ready and willing to give a helping hand.


Mr. REAL CAOUETTE (Pontiac) (Translation) :: I begin by congratulating the hon. member for Saint Maurice-Lafleche (Mr. Hamel) and by seconding the motion which stands in his name on the order paper, requesting that the Labour-Progressive party be outlawed in this country. I also approve the proposal of the hon. member for Chapleau (Mr. Gourd) who asked that a Canadian representative be appointed to the Holy See in Rome. These are worth-while measures which we should all support. There are hon. members and Canadian newspapermen who have deemed fit to spill ink over the motion which stands in my name on the order paper and who have written insolently about it; the resolution, so they claim, is Utopian, senseless.


An hon. MEMBER:: That's true.


David Réal Caouette: It may be senseless, like some hon. gentlemen opposite. In any case, those people maintain that the motion calls for ridiculous expenditure, in order to obtain senseless results; that it is an example of demagoguery and anything else you like.
Mr. Speaker, instead of speaking of the amount of money that such a programme would entail for the country, the government and hon. members should ask themselves whether it would be possible to produce sufficiently to implement such a programme.
We must take into account Canada's potentialities and distribute with logic and intelligence the corresponding amount of money to

The Address-Mr. Caouette
Canadian consumers. Such is the nature of the motion I have placed on the order paper. I mean that we should give our money to Canadians before giving it to foreigners.


Mr. LESAGE:: If that is what you want, then it is all Greek.


David Réal Caouette: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand) has assailed the Electors' Union from all sides-


An hon. MEMBER:: Excellent.


David Réal Caouette: -as well as its provincial chairman and the member for Pontiac. Let us examine his speech and its implications.


An hon. MEMBER:: Don't be afraid.


David Réal Caouette: The hon. member for Terrebonne-


An hon. MEMBER:: He did well.


James Horace King: Order.


David Réal Caouette: The hon. member for Terrebonne intimated that a member of the Union of Electors was reluctant to divulge his identity, that he did not wish to say that he belonged to the Social Credit group. Well, Mr. Speaker, I am a representative of the Union of Electors in this house, and I am not afraid to say that I am one hundred per cent in favour of the Social Credit movement. I wish to make it clear that I am a supporter of the Social Credit philosophy.


An hon. MEMBER:: At last, he has shed the mask.


David Réal Caouette: Some people claim that the Social Credit members of parliament are imperialists, that they are warmongers; that has nothing to do with the Social Credit policies. If an English-speaking Catholic from Ontario is for conscription or if a Frenchspeaking Catholic from Quebec is against conscription, that has nothing to do whatever with the value of the Catholic religion. One could not say, for this reason, that the Catholic religion is objectionable in Canada. That has nothing to do with the doctrine itself. Well, we, members of the Social Credit group, have an economic doctrine, a logic and a philosophy which meet the aspirations of human beings; we suggest that money must be made the servant of man and not the reverse; we want as much money in circulation in peace time as there was in war time.
Everybody knows what the government did for this country in the last war; but now that the war is over, we want these things done for Canadian citizens.


Mr. LALONDE:: May I ask the hon. member a question?


David Réal Caouette: You may question me to your heart's content after I am through.


Maurice Lalonde: Would the hon. member say if he favours controls to permit equitable distribution of the money he mentions?


David Réal Caouette: I favour an equitable distribution of such money as the country's production can supply.


An hon. MEMBER:: When you say that,
do you also mean that you favour controls to attain that end?


James Horace King: Order.


David Réal Caouette: For its wartime needs, the government did not wonder if there was enough money in Canada. It felt it should do everything that was physically possible in the way of providing armaments, guns, rifles, and uniforms. Everything that is physically possible for warfare must be made financially possible. And at no time during the war, Mr. Speaker, was the production of guns, or even of a single cartridge, ever hindered by a lack of money. Money was raised according to possibilities or rather to the necessity with which we were confronted to produce what was required for the destruction of mankind or the protection of our fellow citizens-


Mr. PARENT:: By taxes.


David Réal Caouette: Yes. Since my honourable friend speaks of taxes, I should like to remind him that in 1939 the government could not raise any taxes because the people had no money. It was essential, first of all, to put money in the hands of the taxpayer. We all know how this was achieved. War was used as a means of distributing money to the taxpayer and then came taxes-


Joseph Arthur Lesage: And loans also.


David Réal Caouette: Yes, and loans also.
Mr. Speaker, the honourable member for Terrebonne stated that the programme of the Union of Electors did not make sense and in order to prove that the people had no faith in it he quoted Le Droit of Ottawa and the Fronliere of Rouyn. If my honourable friend wishes to get information from people having no knowledge of its subject let him do so, let him consult people who have never made any study of our doctrine, but at the same time he will become the laughing stock of the whole province and that is only natural.
Let us ask ourselves if Canada can produce sufficiently to guarantee to the aged of 60 and over $60 a month; if Canada can produce sufficiently to guarantee our invalids $60 a
The Address-Mr. Caouette

month when they have reached the age of 21, and if Canada can produce sufficiently to guarantee each and every citizen decent means of livelihood. That is why we request a $20 monthly national dividend.


An hon. MEMBER:: That is not enough!


David Réal Caouette: This is where we have trouble making some people understand.


An hon. MEMBER:: That's not surprising!


David Réal Caouette: That a company should distribute to each of its shareholders at the end of the year, the percentage to which he is entitled in the profits earned, seems entirely logical. This is effected through dividends. That a credit union should distribute a dividend at the end of the year to each of its members, on the basis of his shares also seems quite in order. It is the thing to do.


An hon. MEMBER:: That is the salary earned by capital.


David Réal Caouette: Why admit that much? If everyone agrees, it must be right and well organized. Coordinated work alw'ays gives good results. Think, for instance, of the Noranda mine in my constituency. Some miners are working at 7,000 feet underground, others at 2,000 feet, others at the surface, or at the mill or in offices-


Maurice Lalonde: Others are in their second childhood.


David Réal Caouette: And work is well
organized-


An hon. MEMBER:: Yes, sometimes.


James Horace King: Order!


David Réal Caouette: As it is well done and well organized, what happens at the end of the year? The mine brings profits, which is normal; however, the mine would not be as profitable if work were not well organized and every miner were continuously employed at 7,000 feet underground, and the mine owner would also be in the hole.
In society, Mr. Speaker, work is organized. The hon. members did not make the shoes that they are wearing; they were made by shoe manufacturers. They did not make the clothing that they are wearing; but they are clothed just the same. There are numerous social organizations. We have doctors, we have all kinds of other professional men; all work for the common good, for the general interests of society. Because work has been organized in an intelligent way in Canada there are surpluses at the end of the year. Because the work is organized intelligently, the production system is excellent in Canada.


Maurice Lalonde: We have a good government too.


David Réal Caouette: The production system suits us, because the organization is -well balanced. At the end of the year the production exceeds the existing purchasing power.


An hon. MEMBER:: Not at the present time.


David Réal Caouette: Yes.


An hon. MEMBER:: Not at the present time.


David Réal Caouette: Yes, production exceeds the existing purchasing power inasmuch as we can afford to ship goods to other countries. We have a surplus.
We then export our surplus, but the question is: To what use should we put it? The difference between a country's total production and total purchasing power must be balanced with new money, not money created by bankers but money created by a responsible government, a government that should be sovereign. And that surplus production must not be distributed the world over but among the people of Canada; it should be made available to everyone. It should be computed after deduction of salaries and profits. It is not a question of cutting out salaries or profits. The new currency should be based on the difference between total production and purchasing power, and it should be distributed among all Canadian citizens, the whole Canadian people, in the form of a national dividend. I feel that this is merely logical, Christian-like and even democratic. It affords the means to ensure freedom and security to all Canadians.


An hon. MEMBER:: The dividend is not
high enough.


An hon. MEMBER:: Eighty dollars!


David Réal Caouette: It was stated in the house by the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand) that:
The resolution moved by the hon. member for Pontiac and the programme of the Union of Electors border on Utopia, and I might even say on election hysteria.
He stated a little farther on that the resolution appearing on the order paper was simply an electoral platform. That is exactly what I stated before the election. Hon. members will, however, own that it is very seldom that arguments uttered in the course of an electoral campaign are repeated in parliament. I do it. Before the election, the electors of my constituency had this very programme. They sent me here to promote it. I shall do

The Address-Mr. Caouette
it in spite of everyone. I shall demand what the electors of my constituency will ask me to place before parliament. It may happen that members opposite will ask what our programme is as the hon. member for Terrebonne has done. After having criticized the programme of the Union of Electors, he spoke of a very interesting matter:
The Social Credit party claim that their financial methods would settle the problem. Can people in their right senses be taken in by such statements? No. The people want old age pensions at an earlier age.
What difference is there between this demand and ours?
. . . old age pensions at an earlier age, allowances for the needy crippled and invalids, gradual reduction of taxes . . .
The hon. member wanted to know how our programme could be implemented while reducing taxes. It is by reducing them gradually, that he intends to implement his own programme:
. . . continued employment and fair working conditions, opportunity for ownership, in short, happiness within the framework of a sound and progressive economy.
Mr. Speaker, I believe the hon. member for Terrebonne will eventually occupy a seat on this side of the house.


Mr. BERTRAND (Terrebonne):: No danger of that.


David Réal Caouette: Our programme tends to enhance everyone's happiness. Is it possible to know, in Canada, whether the country is in a position to produce goods for the Canadians? The heavy production of weapons, during the war, in our country, is a well-known fact. When the hon. member for Terrebonne stated that the Social Credit members were in favour of extending help to strangers, during the conflict, he was forgetting that, after the war, they wish to give money to the Canadians. That is a matter he has not mentioned. That is one thing which he has not yet been willing to admit. Mr. Speaker, Canada has increased her wealth during the past years.
The honourable member then spoke about the change in seasons; he has said the Social Credit changed with the seasons. I must say that it is rather the Liberal party and the Liberal policy that have undergone such a seasonal change during the last 25 years.
Mr. Speaker, we want Canada to be for Canadians. Hysteria or demagogy does not enter the picture. Demagogy comes from those who in the past have caused the people to suffer hardships. We do not want that, we want Canada to be for Canadians. Let us
consider history, and we shall see that all those who have tried to help the people have been branded as demagogues, or worse. As far as we are concerned, we shall carry on our work throughout the country, and in the near future, Mr. Speaker, we shall have in Canada a government responsible to the Canadian electors, a government which will promote their interests rather than be concerned with election funds.


Maurice Lalonde: The honourable member will kindly allow me to ask him just one question, because I am seeking information. If I am not mistaken he said a few moments ago that the government should make up for the lack of money through the issue of currency. Would he be willing to explain the machinery to be used in that connection and tell us whether that money circulated throughout the country would create debt?


David Réal Caouette: That money would be absolutely debt-free, since it would be created by a sovereign government. Instead of asking bankers to issue money, or to produce it in the form of loans to the government, the state would itself create money based upon the actual wealth of the country. I mean that such money would correspond to that wealth.


Maurice Lalonde: May I ask a further
question?
(Text):
The hon. member for Pontiac (Mr. Caouette) is reproaching us for not studying social credit. I would like to know something about it but he does not want to answer my questions.


Mr. JOHNSTON:: We have been telling
you about it for twelve years.


Mr. A. E. ROBINSON (Bruce):: Mr. Speaker, the riding I represent is considered a rural constituency. The people who make up that riding are good people, a hard-working, industrious people. W7e have not been noted for becoming millionaires but we get along wonderfully well under the circumstances. Our largest town has a population below 3,000 most of the year, and an added population of summer visitors running into the thousands. My home town of Kincardine is holding its centennial celebration in 1948, and I assure you, sir, that you and any of the members of this house who can visit with us on that occasion will be welcomed and royally entertained, not only by the members of this house who were born in Bruce but also by the descendants of the early pioneers w'ho made our county one of

The Address-Mr. A. E. Robinson
the best counties in Ontario and also one of the best known counties throughout the western provinces.
It will be readily understood that in a rural riding like Bruce we have an active federation of agriculture. I have heard it said that the federation of agriculture is leaning toward socialism. Such is not the case in Bruce. I do not believe it is true of the top officials of the federation, and if the federation were leaning toward socialism it would surely defeat the object of the organization, which is to help out organized agriculture. What agriculture needs is not so much being helped out as to secure a square deal in comparison with other occupations in Canada. We have worked hard through the war years and have not received overpayment for the number of hours worked. At the present time there is not the inclination amongst young people to settle on the many vacant farms which we have. I am sure that if the farmers were getting a square deal financially there would be many of these young people who would settle on these vacant farms, and that in turn would go a long way toward relieving the acute housing shortage which this government seems unable to remedy. We know the conditions that prevail on the majority of farms. The owners are mostly elderly men who no longer have strength to carry on. They cannot get help. They cannot sell. The demand for farms is limited, and prices offered are generally lower than the value of the buildings, with nothing left for the land. They cannot rent, so they do the only thing left. They seed down the land and turn it to pasture, and the productivity is less than a quarter of what it might be. This condition prevails over most of Ontario. During the war the farmers did a wonderful and heroic job. With less help they produced a great deal more. They did it by working almost impossible hours. On Bruce farms the work week has averaged between eighty and ninety hours the year round, and no holidays. In summer, Sunday work has been from three to five hours; in winter, six to eight hours. Farm women, many of them with little families, with no help in the house, and too often without the conveniences that in towns are considered an everyday necessity, drove tractors, tended poultry, milked cows, helped with the haying and harvesting, and somehow found time besides for a good deal of social life. The average farmer is, I may say, not interested in an eight-hour day but more interested in an eight-hour night.
Such conditions are not good for the future welfare of Canada. There is talk of this gov-

ernment spending millions of dollars in opening up more farm lands in Canada. Would any government not be wise to try to make the present farmer's lot such that we could make 100 per cent use of the good land that is now available? Who ever heard of a merchant failing in business when surrounded with farmers who were flush with money, free from debt and adding a little each year to their bank accounts? Prosperity among farmers does not depend on crops altogether but on their having money in their pockets, and able to pay cash down for everything they need from town. The outlook for farming under the present government is not good, but I see a ray of hope from the fact that we, the official opposition, have as our leader the hon. member for Neepawa (Mr. Bracken), who understands farming from all angles. He has made a life study of it. He is eager and willing to fight for farmers' rights from the drop of the hat. I am predicting that our hon. leader will be the next Prime Minister of Canada. When that time comes, and may it be soon, I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that the farmers of Canada will get their fair share of the national income.
Before this debate on the speech from the throne finishes, I wish to say a few words on decentralization. I shall avail myself of that opportunity at the present time. Decentralization is not only a big word, but also a big subject. It is a subject that is not receiving enough attention in Canada today. Nearly every move the present government has made has been toward centralization. During the war this government encouraged the building of large industries in the thickly populated areas. Most of those industries are peace-time industries at the present time. The government missed a wonderful chance by not placing many of these new factories among the smaller towns and villages; thereby the migration would not have been to the larger centres, to the detriment of the smaller rural places.
Working conditions in those smaller centres would be much better. The working men and women would not have to travel up to an hour, or more, to go to and from their work. They would have that extra time to spend with their families, most likely in their gardens at home. Walking on their way to work they would know and be able to say "hello" to everyone they met. They would be able to live much cheaper. They would not be holed up in a crowded apartment that makes unnatural living conditions. They would be able to raise their kiddies as God meant them to be raised. Kiddies are not even welcome in most apartments by landlords today. Conditions in large centres are working toward

The Address-Mr. Drope
holding down our natural increase in population. Natural increase beats any type of immigration that any country can think of. From the point of view of raising a family, the large congested city stinks. There is not even grass on the school playgrounds. Even our undertakers today furnish synthetic grass for our dead. Can we not supply a little of the natural grass for our children?
We have had much labour unrest in Canada, and probably will have more. Working conditions in smaller centres do not supply the same incentive to labour to go on strike as that given in the larger centres. In the smaller centre, each worker is not considered a cog in the wheel of industry, but is considered a wheel in the machinery that keeps industry running. I would suggest that any government would do well to find ways ana means to encourage decentralization.
Before I finish, I wish to make a few remarks on what I think is an important subject, which is health. We must give better health services to rural municipalities; not because we of rural municipalities wish to be pampered; but because it will be to our nation's benefit to give that better service. For the past five years our rural infant mortality rate has been from fifty-five to sixty per 1,000 live births, compared with thirty to forty-two per 1,000 live births in our urban areas. Really to bring home what these figures mean, I must say that we in Canada were greatly concerned over the loss of 41,000 of our youth in the six years of war; but in the same period of time, Canada has lost 130,000 infants in their first six months of life. Our infant mortality in Canada is nineteen per cent higher than in the United States. Are we as a nation not as hardy as the United States? Are we as a nation not as capable of giving our youth a chance to live?
There is a book entitled, "Canadian Mother and Child", edited by Ernest Couture, M.D., and published by the authority of the Minister of National Health and Welfare. It has been my privilege to mail a copy of this book to hundreds of mothers in my riding of Bruce, and in all cases those copies are greatly appreciated. Our youth is the greatest asset that Canada has today, so let us give them the service they deserve.


Mr. R. E. DROPE (Northumberland, Ont.):: In rising to take part in the debate, I should like to offer my congratulations to the four new members who were elected since the last session. Many subjects have been discussed in this debate, but very little has been said about our basic industry, which I am sure we all agree is agriculture. The constituency of
Northumberland, which I have the honour to represent, is situated in central Ontario east of the city of Toronto, bounded on the south by lake Ontario and on the north by Rice lake and Trent river. It is a great agricultural county dotted with many splendid towns, villages and tourist resorts that attract visitors from many other parts of the United States as well as from other parts of Canada. The waters of Rice lake and Trent river teem with fish of many varieties. We have also one of the best skiing runs in Ontario, situated on No. 45 highway eight miles north of the town of Cobourg.
Dairying is carried on extensively in this county. I wish to say something about the butter and cheese situation as it affects our county and nearly all parts of Canada. The Canadian people are great consumers of dairy products when they can get them. What do we find in the matter of butter? We have been rationed and controlled until we now find the government importing large quantities of New Zealand butter. The controlled prices of butter have been so low that farmers have been driven out of producing churning cream. The dairy farmers have been working long hours in milking cows and have not been compensated for the time they have put in. I am satisfied that our dairy farmers, if given a reasonable price, can produce all the dairy products that we require in this country. The cost of living index is being held at the expense of the farmers of Canada. This situation must be corrected; after all, our nation cannot exist without food and our food must first come from the farms.
Much has been said about keeping good times in this country. My opinion is that, if the agricultural industry is prosperous, it will provide the best market for the manufactured goods of our towns and cities. I was interested in hearing the Minister of Reconstruction (Mr. Howe) tonight telling us something about the lumber industry and what the controls that are being kept on meant to the people of Canada. Apparently he forgot to say that the administration of those controls cost the tax payers of Canada considerable money. Many articles have advanced in price even with controls. Higher prices across the line in the United States are bound to affect this country. Price control tends to reduce competition and thus tends to remove the stimulus of increasing efficiency and service to the consumer. We have a great country here. A great many of our returned men are coming back and taking their places in all walks of life. I am just wondering how the returned soldier is going to make out with these houses which have cost so much, and about whose poor construe-
Privilege

tion we have heard so much. I hate to see the young soldier saddled with the high price which these houses have cost. I am quite satisfied that, if they had been built under free enterprise, we would have had a better job done and would have had more houses.
I see that my time has expired, Mr. Speaker, and I think that is about all I wish to say tonight.
On motion of Mr. Weir the debate was adjourned.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie the house adjourned at 10:55 p.m.
Tuesday, March 11, 1947