[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. MALLETTE:: 1.	Has a successor been appointed in place of the late Major Ducharme, chaplain of the military hospital at Ste. Anne de Bellevue?
2.	If so, what is his name?


Mr. POWER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Rev. Georges-Guy Phaneuf.


HENRY DIRKS
Mr. LENNARD:: 1.	What remuneration has Henry Dirks of 1221 Main street east. Hamilton, Ontario, received from the dominion government for services rendered during the years 1930, 1937, and the first three months of 1938?
2.	What moneys, if any, are still to he paid to him for services rendered?


Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	1936 and 1937, nil. 1938, S1.000 was paid to the firm of Bethune and Dirks of Hamilton, Ontario, by the Department of National Defence.
2.	None.


QUEBEC HARBOUR PUBLIC WHARF
Mr. TREMBLAY:: 1.	Is there in the harbour of Quebec any wharf reserved to the general public for the unloading of coal?
2.	What persons or corporations have made use of the wharf since it has been placed at the disposal of the public, and what is the volume of coal that has been unloaded at such wharf by such persons or corporations?
3.	Has the national harbours board received any offer to rent this wharf? If so, from whom, and on what conditions?


Mr. HOWE:: The following information has been furnished by the national harbours board:
1.	Yes.
2.	None.
3.	Inquiries have been received from time to time from parties expressing a general interest in securing a lease of this wharf. As the area available for this purpose is a restricted one, and as it was prepared and reserved for use as a public coal dock in response to strong local representations in that

Questions
behalf, the board felt that the regulations which it has formulated to ensure that the dock should be kept available for public use should be adhered to, at least until such time as it should be clearly established that the wharf would not be made use of for the purpose intended. Therefore, negotiations were not entered into with any of the parties inquiring with a view of securing exclusive use of the wharf for a long period.
SOREL SHIPYARnS


Mr. PELLETIER:: 1.	Did the government sell coal barge No. 6 to the General Dredging Company last year? If so: (a) has the government used or rented coal barge No. 6 from the General Dredging Company since it was sold to them; (b) how much rent has the government paid each day; (c) for what purpose was it used?
2.	How much money was spent for painting and repair to the buildings at the Sorel shipyards for the five months preceding July 22, 1937?


Clarence Decatur Howe: *
1.	Yes.
(a)	Yes.
(b)	8265, not to exceed ten days.
(c)	For the purpose of assisting in spring rush of laying buoys-Montreal agency.
2.	$2,058.96.


BOARD OF RAILWAY COMMISSIONERS- APPOINTMENTS
Mr. LAPOINTE (Matapedia-Matane):: 1.	Upon what date was a member last appointed to the railway commission?
2.	Is there a French Canadian on the said commission ?
3.	If not, why?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	August 12, 1935, when Hon. Hugh Guthrie, chief commissioner, was appointed.
2.	Yes; Mr. Francois Napoleon Garceau, deputy chief commissioner.
3.	Answered by No. 2.


NATURALIZATION IN BRITISH COLUMBIA
Mr. HANSON:: 1.	What was the total number of naturalization certificates granted in the province of British Columbia in the years 1928 to 1938 inclusively, showing for each year separately?
2.	How many of the persons to whom such certificates were granted during that period were of oriental origin, showing for each year separately?


Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	There are no statistics of naturalization by provinces.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


ST. ANDREWS EAST, QUE., POST OFFICE
Mr. HEON:: 1.	Has the land for a post office at St. Andrews East, county of Argenteuil, been acquired ?
2.	If so, from whom, and at what price?
3.	Has the contract for the building of such a post office been let?
4.	If so, to whom, and at what price?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) A. E. Ladouceur.
(b) $1,500.
3 and 4. Contract not yet awarded.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. JEAN:: 1.	Since January 1, 1936, was any contribution made by the dominion government to the following projects:	(a) erection of a bridge
at the end of Pie IX Boulevard over Prairies river, linking Montreal island with Jesus island; (b) Sherbrooke street construction through the city of Pointe-aux-Trembles; (c) Broadway repairs in the city of Montreal East; (d) Notre Dame street repairs through Montreal East and Pointe-aux-Trembles cities?
2.	If so, what share was contributed by the dominion government in each case?


Mr. RINFRET:: Return tabled.


OTTAWA GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS-PURCHASES OF COAL
Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: 1.	What was the amount of coal purchased for government buildings in Ottawa for the fiscal years commencing April 1, 1907, to date, by the Public Works department? (a) Was this coal purchased by tender or otherwise;
(b)	what firms tendered, what were the terms of the tender, and what were the tender prices;
(c)	what was the price paid per ton; (d) what was the total amount paid to any one firm during each of the years mentioned; (e) what firm was successful in obtaining the tender each year; (f) how were these tenders, if any, obtained in each of these years whether by advertisement or otherwise?
2.	For each of the years above mentioned, how were the quantities delivered by the successful tenderer established whether by railway rates or otherwise? (a) If established by railway rates, what were the number and particulars of each car so delivered; (b) if the quantities delivered were established other than by railway rates, how were delivered quantities established, giving full particulars; (c) in any of the years mentioned, what means, if any, has the department taken to check the delivered weights of coal?
3.	Does the Department of Public Works or any other department of the government operate a scale to check the weights of coal and if so, how long has this scale been
delivered, operated f
Motions jor Papers

4.	Has the operation of any said scale disclosed discrepancies in delivered weights of coal, and if so, what action has the department taken to recover or adjust overcharges due to incorrect weight?
5.	Has the department any information of any refunds made to the government by any coal company delivering coal on government account or any adjustment made by any coal company for duplicated bills, overcharges in delivered weights, short weights, or overpayments? If so, what are the full particulars of each and every such refund and adjustment?
G. In any of the fiscal years above mentioned, has any coal company been paid any special rate or price per ton over and above the tender price for any special service or delivery charge or handling charge in connection with the coal delivered under such tender? If so, what are the full particulars for each year?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Sir EUGENE FISET (for Mr. Deslauriers):: For a copy of all papers, letters, telegrams and other documents, dated from January, 1935, to March 11, 1938, exchanged between the dominion government or any officer thereof and any other persons relating to Dr. J. O. Langevin, of the Department of Agriculture, health of animals branch, in Montreal.



SASKATCHEWAN RELIEF FLOUR

Mr. COLDWELL:: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the Minister of Agriculture, the independent millers of Saskatchewan and other persons regarding proposals for the provision of relief flour during the year 1937.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
Agricultural economics, $120,260.
Mr. SENN:: The other evening when the committee rose we were discussing research work carried on in different cities regarding the purchase and consumption of agricultural products. I asked the minister whether any investigation had been made into the consumption of vegetable oils and the effect upon the sale of other agricultural products. The minister replied in the negative, and he was asked whether any such investigation was contemplated. I think it is desirable in the interest of agriculture, and particularly of the live stock industry, that some such investigation be made. Would the minister tell us who initiates these investigations? Under whose authority are they begun? Is it by his own authority, or has the department power to initiate them? If it is the minister's prerogative, will he consider the advisability of inquir-
ing into the effect of the increasing sale of vegetable oils in Canada in recent years upon the sale of animal fats for spreading and shortening purposes?


Mr. GARDINER:: The investigation into the use of vegetable oils that has been asked by certain individuals is an investigation of the type that might be carried on by the tariff board. As I understand it the question which has been submitted to that board is whether or not the dairy industry should be given some protection through some action regarding the importation of vegetable oils. That is not a question that would be investigated by the economics branch of this department.


Mark Cecil Senn: I scarcely agree with the minister. I was not asking an investigation into the merits of placing a tariff on vegetable oils or otherwise; but it is undoubtedly true that the sale of vegetable oils in Canada is increasing very rapidly, and naturally it must have some effect upon the sale of animal fats and oils. I think it might very well come within the scope of any investigation to determine to what extent these vegetable oils are displacing animal fats for spreading and shortening purposes. I do not wish to carry the matter further than to say that I believe it would be in the interests of agriculture generally if the minister would initiate such an investigation.
While I am on my feet I should like to ask the minister one further question. The other day he made some reference to the fact that a study was being made of the cost of farm living. I wonder how far that investigation has been carried and how it is being conducted. Is it being carried on in all parts of the dominion or only in Ontario or some other provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: Most of these investigations are earned on in cooperation with the provincial authorities and, in some instances, agricultural colleges and universities. They are of a local nature in the sense that at one time they may be carried on in Alberta, at another time in Ontario and at another time in Nova Scotia, but there is a relationship between the investigations in one part and those in others.


Mr. NEILL:: Reverting for a moment to
the question of vegetable oils, perhaps the Minister of Finance could tell us whether or not there has been an investigation made by the tariff board. I was under the impression that he ordered an investigation by that board into the importation of vegetable oils,

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Supply-Agriculture-Economics
which arose, so far as my interest in it was concerned, not only as regards the dairying interests in my district but also in connection with the competition it afforded to fish oils made from the reduction of pilchards on the Pacific coast. Perhaps my memory is bad, but I gathered that the matter was being investigated by the tariff board. Has the Minister of Finance any knowledge of that?


Mr. DUNNING:: The hon. member for
Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) is quite correct, Mr. Chairman. The reference to the tariff board of the matter of tariffs on vegetable oils and matters connected therewith was made some time ago. I cannot recollect the date, but in any event it was within the past year Hearings have taken place; submissions have been made, and there has been very considerable argument about the whole matter. Offhand I cannot state the stage of the proceedings at the moment, but a very thorough inquiry is proceeding.


Mr. ROWE (Dufferin-Simcoe):: I realize
that it is difficult to discuss a matter that is now before the tariff board; but on the other hand, as the hon member for Haldimand (Mr. Senn) has stated, the situation warrants further investigation by the department into the effect on our agricultural products of the importation of vegetable oils. I presume if it is impossible to discuss the matter under thP item it may be impossible to discuss it under any other. The government may later consider any recommendations that may be made by the tariff board in regard to the tariff on vegetable oils, but I think if investigation discloses that vegetable oils am replacing animal fats and oils to a considerable extent there may be some other method of assisting and protecting the producers of animal fats in this country. The tariff board is dealing with the tariff phase of the issue; nevertheless I think under this item the government might well institute investigations to ascertain to what extent animal fats and oils are being replaced by the vegetable oils that are shipped into this country. The government should consider that matter very carefully, as a government; and it is the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture to consider the effect on agriculture in this country. I am not so much concerned with the manner in which the government might assist the farmers, whether by implementing any recommendations made by the tariff board or by the imposition of a processing tax, but I do feel that this question deeply affects agriculture, and might well be considered by this economics branch instead of being left entirely to the tariff board as a tariff or fiscal matter.
Personally I think the importation of these vegetable oils affects the very basis of the agricultural industry in this dominion. I know of nothing that promises so adversely to affect Canadian agriculture as the importation of substitutes for animal fats and animal oils. The live stock industry is recognized by all outstanding agriculturists, both in the department and in various parts of the dominion, as one of the most important branches of agriculture. If we are to perpetuate a sound agricultural industry in Canada we must maintain a prosperous live stock industry. I think every farmer within the sound of my voice will agree with that general principle, and that industry is being threatened by the greatly increased importation of vegetable oils and the ever-widening use of these oils as shortening, replacing lard. It is possible that in the not far distant future they may be used in the manufacture of substitutes for butter and other dairy products. When one realizes that to-day we find it necessary to export more than half the lard production in Canada one realizes the effect of these importations on our live stock industry, and there is no doubt that the almost prohibitive tariff against the importation of vegetable oils into the United States has had the effect of increasing the importations into this country. I do not mean to say that the imposition of tariffs is the only method of relieving the situation. While we are speaking about agricultural economics I must observe that I know of no single factor which affects so adversely the agricultural situation throughout Canada as does this great increase in importations of what might be described as a substitute for live stock products. It may be said that these many millions of pounds of imported vegetable oils are inedible. While that may be true it is also true that much of the oil imported as inedible is made edible before it reaches the Canadian market.
I believe the department would do well to consider means of relieving the situation, and as the Minister of Agriculture is the one most responsible to agriculture in Canada I suggest that he recommend to the government effective measures through which this serious situation may be remedied. In making these observations I believe I am not speaking out of turn, although the Minister of Finance has declared that the subject is before the tariff board. It seems to me that some form of taxation would be highly justified, in view of the fact that these importations strike at the very roots of successful agriculture and would have the effect of destroying our live stock industry.
Supply-Agriculture-Economics


Mr. HAYHURST:: I have received about five hundred letters from daily farmers in the northern section of Alberta, and especially from my own constituency, dealing with the problem of the importation of vegetable oil. I have no doubt other hon. members have received similar letters. In order that hon. members may be familiar with the situation I should like to read one letter.


Mr. McLEAN (Melfort):: Is the hon. member referring to letters or only to circulars which came through the mail?


William Hayhurst: They are circular statements signed by individual farmers.


Malcolm McLean: But they are not letters.


William Hayhurst: They are letters in the respect I have indicated.


William Earl Rowe: If they are signed by individual farmers they are letters.


William Hayhurst: And they are signed by individual farmers.


Malcolm McLean: Handed to them to sign.	.


William Hayhurst: Signed by individual farmers who object to large importations of vegetable oil.


Malcolm McLean: Propaganda.


William Hayhurst: Propaganda it may be, from your standpoint; but at the same time the dairy industry in Alberta and in other provinces must be protected. I am not saying it will have to be protected by the imposition of high tariffs upon vegetable oils, but there should be some way of helping the dairy farmers. The letter is as follows:
Dear Sir,-
I note that last year there were over 200,000,000 pounds of vegetable oils imported into Canada, chiefly from tropical countries, practically duty free, and that the quantity of shortening manufactured in Canada, not made from animal fat, has doubled since 1932. I have every reason to believe that the substitution of cheap foreign vegetable oils for Canadian produced animal fats is becoming a serious menace to Canada's 750,000 farmers.
Something must be done about this menace, for we farmers can't compete with the cheap native labour of the tropics. I urge you, therefore, to take such steps as will cause a duty to be placed on these imported vegetable oils as outlined in the application of the National Dairy Council to the tariff board in December, 1936. Successful diversified farming can only be continued through the encouragement of the live stock and dairy industries. As one of your constituents, depending on mixed farming for a living, I urge you to support a reasonable and fair tariff on the importation of these foreign substitutes for Canadian produced animal fats.
[Mr w. E. Rnwo.l
We know that very large areas of Canada are dependent upon the dairy industry. If the industry is not aided by the federal government the substitution of vegetable oils will have serious effects.


An hon. MEMBER:: How?


Mr. LENNARD:: Use your head.


William Hayhurst: Some are not accustomed to using their heads.


Malcolm McLean: You promised fifty-eent butter in 1930 and we got five-cent butter.


William Hayhurst: If large quantities of vegetable oils are brought into Canada and used as shortening in the baking industry we will lose the local market for products we can produce in great abundance. I would urge the Minister of Agriculture to put his experts on agricultural economic planning to work on the subject. They should see that the dairy industry of Canada is properly protected.


Mr. MAYBANK:: Mr. Chairman, I rise to speak because of the pleas put forward in the last few moments. Although I represent a city constituency, I come from an agricultural province. I believe the city, part of which I represent, knows as well as any city can know the needs and desires of farmers, and recognizes as perhaps no other city does how completely and fully its own prosperity is tied up with the prosperity of the surrounding farming community. I hope that the government will not be influenced by pleas of the sort which have just been made for the imposition of tariffs on these products. I do not know for certain that all the representatives from Manitoba are in agreement with me, but I believe they are. I have spoken with the Manitoba members on the subject and have heard no voice in favour of the tariff now sought. I did not wish the moment to pass without speaking, especially in view of the silence of several representatives from Saskatchewan, which might indicate an acquiescence.
I believe the people in western Canada realize that they cannot at one and the same time ask for a general lowering of tariffs and an increase in the tariff on these particular commodities. Taking it by and large, it will be found that the farming communities will be consistent in the requests they make from time to time. I am well aware a certain campaign has been put on in favour of a tariff increase in this connection, and that some sections of the farming communities may be in favour of it. However it is my belief it will be found that no representative of the great province of Manitoba-and cer-

Supply-Agriculture-Economics
tainly Manitoba is an agricultural province, with many dairy farmers-will be in favour of this particular plea.


Mark Cecil Senn: I have listened with interest and attention to the observations of the hon. member who has just taken his seat (Mr. Maybank). I do not know just what is the attitude of the farming population of Manitoba tow'ard this question, but I venture to say that many of them want something done to curb the importation and sale of vegetable oils which are being used in preference to animal fats produced in our own country. The hon. gentleman has referred to the attitude of agriculture generally regarding the tariff, but he will find that in certain parts of this country the farmers are not asking for lower tariffs. All that they ask is that they be placed in a position of equality with other industries throughout the dominion so far as the tariff is concerned.
The hon. gentleman has referred to the propaganda being carried on, but I know that if conditions were reversed, if other classes of goods were coming in to displace other Canadian products, a more intensive campaign of propaganda would be carried on. 1 have in my hand a clipping containing a statement made by the president of Canada Packers in which he states that if a certain amount of protection were granted to this industry it would mean a third of a cent per pound on every hog slaughtered and a fifth of a cent per pound on, every steer. If hen. members will take the trouble to estimate what that would return to the farmers of Canada they will realize that it would mean from $6,000,000 to S7.500.000 annually. That is a considerable item.
The hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre (Mr. Maybank) did not say that he was putting forth an argument on behalf of the consumer. His argument was rather on the ground that they have consistently been asking for freer trade and in this instance they had to be consistent again. It seems to me that his argument is not at all well founded. I did not rise at this time to enter into a discussion of this matter. All I ask the minister to do is to authorize an investigation into the extent to which imported vegetable oils are displacing animal fats produced in Canada. It seems to me that that would come well within this vote. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) has stated that the matter is being inquired into by the tariff board, but I doubt if that investigation would be as thorough as one which could be made by officials of the department
who would go to cities and towns and other parts of the country and make a house to house investigation.


James Garfield Gardiner: The importation and
use of vegetable oils has a relationship not only to the dairy industry but also to the live stock industry. If vegetable oils replace anything, it is animal fats rather than the products of the dairy industry. The whole matter of the relationship of these different products has been referred to the tariff board. I do not think it would be proper for the economics branch of the Department of Agriculture to start a second inquiry when the matter is before the tariff board. However, everything that has been mentioned here will naturally be given consideration during this investigation.


Mr. DEACHMAN:: The army of privilege fights hard and never dies. The men who have been making an argument to-day in favour of restriction are the men who opposed a reciprocity agreement with the United States which gave us access to the American market. We cannot continue to export unless we continue to import. In 1930 our exports to the United Kingdom were $283,000,000; in 1937 they were $409,000,000.


Mark Cecil Senn: Give us the figures for 1928.


Robert John Deachman: I will let my hon. friend choose any year he washes, but if I were to give those it would only show the extent to which our trade fell off after the government of my hon. friend came into office. I do not want to make this a political issue. The imports from the United Kingdom dropped from $1S9,000,000 to $129,000,000. There is a strong feeling in the United Kingdom that we drove a very hard bargain when we negotiated the empire agreements with that country. A bargain is never a real bargain unless both parties to the transaction make a profit. When you drive a bargain in which the loss is entirely upon the other side, then you have lost the deal. That is especially so when it is a national transaction. You may have sharp practices with an individual and get away with it, but a nation must be honest, it must be square in its dealings.


Mr. CAHAN:: Is the hon. member insinuating that sharp practices were applied to the British delegates at the conference?


Robert John Deachman: The leader of the government of that day was emphatic in the statement that he w'as going to bargain in a tight, hard way, there is no question about
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that. Were it not for that fact, where did the phrase, "blast our way into the markets of the world" originate?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I ask my hon. friend either to make his reflections clear or to retract them.


Robert John Deachman: I am making my reflections quite clear. We drove a hard, tight bargain.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: If the hon. gentleman will allow me to interrupt, I should like to say that there was no hard, tight bargain driven. I was at every conference between the British and Canadian delegates. If we had given all that the British delegates demanded, it would have been such a hard bargain for this country that industry could hardly have survived.


Mr. BAKER:: I think the hon. member should be asked to withdraw the words "sharp practices."


Robert John Deachman: Here is the record of the bargain. Exports to the United Kingdom in 1930 stood at $283,000,000.


The CHAIRMAN:: I think this discussion is taking in a rather wide field. I would request hon. members to confine their remarks to the item before the committee. We are now on item No. 7.


Robert John Deachman: I am dealing with a question involving the importation of vegetable oils into Canada, and I propose to submit this argument. We are now engaged in negotiation not only with the empire but with the United States for the extension of our markets. I submit that it is perfectly appropriate for me to point out that restrictions upon imports into this country must necessarily restrict exports. I was illustrating this fact by stating that in 1930 our exports to the United Kingdom were $283,000,000 and in 1937 they had increased to $409,000,000. Our imports from the United Kingdom were $189,000,000 and they dropped to $129,000,000. What happened in connection with vegetable oils? In 1933 our imports of vegetable oils from the United Kingdom amounted to $1,005,000 and in 1937 they had increased to $6,288,000. I submit that here was one little ewe lamb that we managed to offer to Great Britain. We offered her a market in this country for certain types of vegetable oil, and she took advantage of that offer. When there is one item of a few million dollars that seems to stand out, hon. gentlemen on the Conservative side rise up with one voice and say, "Let us restrict the imports of this commodity." I ask, where are we going? Do we want markets or do we not want them?

We are endeavouring as best we can to expand our markets for agricultural products not only in the United States but in the United Kingdom. It is, I submit, the most vital issue in this country to-day.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Will the hon. member permit a question?


Robert John Deachman: Yes.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Can he tell me the amount in value of vegetable oils produced in the United Kingdom in any recent year?


Robert John Deachman: We are buying them from there.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I should like to know what is the amount in value produced. The quantity produced is infinitesimal.


Robert John Deachman: We are purchasing these oils refined or partly refined from the United Kingdom, and this is the market so far as the United Kingdom is concerned. I might counter iby asking what products we ship abroad and what proportion is produced in Canada; but we cannot go into those details to-day. The broad fact is that we must receive payment for the products which we export or we cannot continue to export them, and in face of the fact that we are now engaged in trade negotiations we have the suggestion made in this House of Commons, by men who, I presume, are definitely interested in the welfare of agriculture, that we should announce increased restrictions on the import of vegetable oils from the United Kingdom and also duties upon agricultural products coming in from the United States-that is what it ultimately involves.


Charles Avery Dunning: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order arising out of your ruling, now that my hon. friend has stated what might be called the other side, could we not get back to the real point before the committee?-which, as I understand it, is whether this parliament is prepared to have $120,000 expended on the study of agricultural economies. I think, sir, your ruling was quite correct, that the discussion should be confined to the purpose for which the money is to be voted. The question is not the importation of vegetable oils or the usual budget debate on tariffs, either high or low, free trade or protection, but whether it is a good thing and a sound thing that there should be an organization in the Department of Agriculture to make an intensive study of agricultural economics, and of course to produce reports and make them available to parliament. The ruling, I submit, should be adhered to, but I hesitate to interrupt my hon. friend because he was stating the other side.

Supply-Agriculture-Economics


Robert John Deachman: I have no objection whatever to the ruling of the Chair, and I would hesitate to take any exception to a ruling, but I do suggest that we have been discussing this question for nearly three-quarters of an hour; there was no protest when it started, and yet when I am stating my case, which is a refutation of the argument made by those who are opposing me from the Conservative side, then we have these rules of order raised.


Charles Avery Dunning: Oh, no. I think the hon. member has stated his case pretty completely. I had no intention at all of raising a point of order against him. I was not in the other night when the Chairman made his ruling, but it seems to me a common sense ruling. My hon. friend has just stated his point admirably, and I thought that was an appropriate place to try to get the committee back on the rails. However, it is entirely in your hands, Mr. Chairman.


William Earl Rowe: While I do not agree with the hon. member for Huron North (Mr. Deachman), yet on the point of order, Mr. Chairman-


Charles Avery Dunning: The point of order is decided.


William Earl Rowe: The Minister of Finance was speaking to it.


Charles Avery Dunning: No, I was simply suggesting that the ruling should be enforced.


Mr. POULIOT:: As your ruling, Mr. Chairman, was broad, and as the subject matter is very broad, may I point out with regard to trade with the United Kingdom that one should consider not only production over there. That would be a great mistake and would show very deep ignorance, because it is well known that with regard to butter, for instance, speaking in a wide sense, in England the sales of butter exceed greatly the production of butter, and the same with a great many other commodities.


Frederick George Sanderson: Order. The hon. member is out of order. We are discussing item 7, and if the hon. member will turn to page 55 of the details of the estimates he will find that the item is made up entirely of salaries. I would ask the hon. member to confine his remarks to item 7.


Robert John Deachman: Mr. Chairman, I desire to deal again with the point brought up a moment ago with regard to the importation of vegetable 'oils. The hon. member for Haldi-mand (Mr. Senn) suggested that the effect of the importation of vegetable oils would be
the addition of, I think it was, approximately 35 cents a hundred, to the price of hogs in the Dominion of Canada. He quoted from a document which he said was prepared by Canada Packers, and I suppose I may be permitted now to quote from the same document in respect to this important item:
A careful calculation indicates that the duty proposed would involve an increase in the cost of household necessities not less than $15,000,000 per year. This is equivalent to $7 per family. And the weight of it would fall principally on labour and farm families, which are the largest consumers of bread and soap.
I submit that when we consider the investigation of vegetable oils we ought to consider very carefully the reduction in the purchasing power of the Canadian people which would result from the addition of a total bill of $15,000,000 to what labour, the farmer, and the consumers of Canada generally would have to pay for two ordinary household necessities.


Major James William Coldwell: May I ask the minister what the duties of the senior agricultural economists will be?


James Garfield Gardiner: The senior agricultural economist is Mr. Booth, who was appointed in 1929 for the purpose of making investigations into the economic side of agriculture. It is not his duty, as I pointed out on three or four occasions last Thursday afternoon, to make investigations into the relationship of the tariff to the exportation of goods from Canada or the importation of goods into Canada. That is the duty of the tariff board. His duty is to make investigations in, say, Saskatchewan as to the costs of producing certain commodities or as to the cost of operating farms under certain circumstances, or as to whether one tyipe of farming would be beneficial as against another type, and all subjects of that kind having to do either with the marketing or with the production of farm commodities.


Major James William Coldwell: Have these inquiries
been begun? Are they being conducted at the present time?


James Garfield Gardiner: Quite a number of them have been carried on over a period of years. There have been investigations into the marketing of fruit and vegetables, such as a study of the marketing of fruit and vegetables in the city of Toronto, an investigation of the variations in price received for apples exported from Nova Scotia, an investigation of distribution costs of fruits and vegetables distributed by wholesalers and jobbers, wholesale fruit and vegetable distribution costs. There is a whole page of them.
Supply-Agriculture-Economics


Major James William Coldwell: The minister mentioned western Canada. What work is being done in this regard in the prairie provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: Land utilization surveys, 1937, and an economic land utilization classification in Saskatchewan.


Major James William Coldwell: With regard to the surveys for land utilization, the members of that staff are, I believe, highly qualified soil chemists. Is this the place to ask for information regarding the rates of salary paid to these men? I understood the minister to tell me last year that they were classified as graduate-labourers.


James Garfield Gardiner: The proper place to discuss that would be under experimental farms, on the next page.


Major James William Coldwell: The minister spoke of land utilization. I thought this might get the discussion back to the item, as a matter of fact.


Jean-François Pouliot: Under this item I see: two senior agricultural economists, two agricultural economists, two senior assistant agricultural economists, two assistant agricultural economists, and one junior agricultural economist. I suggest that the minister should be very careful about economists, and should have business men of his own type in the first place; even if they are economists on the side I would have no objection to it. But in certain departments we have too many doctors, and I have suggested already that we should see them in full regalia: we have too many doctors, we have a pest of doctors, and at times they are fake doctors.


Mr. THOMPSON:: What about the lawyers?


Jean-François Pouliot: I do not mean doctors of medicine like my hon. friend from Lanark;
I mean fake doctors in sciences, and especially doctors in philosophy. I am afraid of these people because they are dreamers, they are not practical men. I should like to see all these economists of lower grade replaced by men of high standing who have experience in agriculture, men of the type of the minister and other good men I see here in the house. They would do much more for the farmer and the country than some of those who are now in the Department of Agriculture. That is all I have to say about it for the time being.


Mr. BARBER:: Under this division of the department has any investigation been made into fruit marketing and production and dairy production in British Columbia? I believe that these activities are supposed to be carried on in conjunction with the local officials. If so, what has been done?


James Garfield Gardiner: We have had investigations into creamery management and into milk consumption in British Columbia, and at present there is being organized an investigation into the fruit industry of that province.


Frank Exton Lennard: Can the minister tell me where these different economists are located at the present time?


James Garfield Gardiner: All of the officials whose positions are listed on page 55 work from a central office in Ottawa, but they may be carrying on duties in British Columbia or Nova Scotia or Saskatchewan-as a matter of fact, in any part of Canada.


Richard Langton Baker: Do they ever leave their Ottawa offices and go out and see the land at all?


James Garfield Gardiner: Oh, yes; they go out continuously from the Ottawa office. They make investigations in different parts of Canada.


Richard Langton Baker: Go out and take a peek at it once in a while; is that it?


Mr. PELLETIER:: To come back to the
question asked a moment ago by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell), I have in my hand a report of the Department of Agriculture, and amongst the duties listed under the economics branch are the following:
. The research activities of this branch were continued during the past year. The special phases of research emphasized have been: A study _ of the cost of production of milk in Ontario; land utilization in Saskatchewan and Alberta. . . .
I believe the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar made it clear that he was referring to land utilization in Saskatchewan and Alberta, so that under this particular heading I believe I shall be in order in making a few remarks concerning land utilization in those two provinces.
I know the minister believes that eventually the drought areas of Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta will come back into their own. For many years past I have agitated along the line that these people, instead of being kept continuously on relief in the areas in which they live, would be in a much better position if definite steps were taken to establish them-those of them for whom there is no hope in the future-in other areas in the northern parts of our provinces where they would have at least some opportunity and hope of reestablishment. This economics branch could very well undertake. for example, the study of wooded soils and their management. It is a subject which

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in my opinion comes definitely within the purview of this branch. I understand that some work of this kind has been carried on in the past by various provincial governments, but in order to get at the root of this problem the economics branch should undertake a survey along lines which would give reasonable hope that a solution shall be found where apparently no solution exists at the present time.
I have often spoken about the Peace River country. I happen to know that in that particular part of Canada there is a vast area which needs development, which could easily locate many thousands of settlers who have no hope of recovering their lost fortunes in the places where they are settled at the present time. Apparently it is impossible to foresee with any degree of accuracy just how long it would take to rehabilitate them under the uncertain conditions which they have to face. The point is this, that year after year we in this parliament are required to appropriate vast sums of money in order to relieve the situation in the drought area, and I believe that one permanent way to meet that condition would be to investigate those parts of Canada which are capable of agricultural development. Eventually these people would no doubt be better off., and the government would benefit financially-and so would the taxpayers of Canada-if they were provided with new locations in areas where drought is unknown.
I realize that drought may be the result of a man-made condition and eventually might afflict these places which it is proposed to develop. That is why I maintain that proper research work in the undeveloped wooded areas in the northern parts of our provinces would certainly afford information which at the present time is not possessed by the Department of Agriculture. I do not know what work has been done along that line, but I believe that in that direction lies at least a possibility of doing away with a large part' of the burden of assistance which we have been carrying. Furthermore I wish to point out exactly what it means from the standpoint of the original family itself. We find these people in various drought areas in Saskatchewan living on hope year after year, always hoping that perhaps the next year will be a 'better one. Yet what happens? Bitter disappointment, bitter failure; that is always the extent to which their hopes materialize. I am sure there are certain places in Canada where we could very well settle these people, make new homes for them, and free them from the conditions under the disadvantages of which they are now existing. As I have
said, sometimes drought is the result of development and the opening up of the land too quickly; therefore I believe valuable investigatory work could be done by the economics branch of the department. I look forward to the day when the greatest volume of production in the prairie provinces will come from the northern section.
Under this same heading I notice that the marketing of fresh fruits and vegetables in Toronto is one of the functions performed by the economics branch.


James Garfield Gardiner: Not the marketing; they are making an inquiry into marketing.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I would like them also to make an inquiry into the marketing possibilities in the Peace River country. I have agitated up there for many years for a coast outlet so that we could secure fresh fruits grown in British Columbia, and I shall lose no occasion to point out that in the Peace River country there is a vast market for British Columbia fresh fruits. The population is close to 70,000, and I am continually receiving letters to the effect that if there were an outlet from the Peace River country to the British Columbia fruit districts they would find in that part of Alberta a large market for their fruit. There is a vast.internal market for our products, and it should be one of the functions of the economics branch to ascertain and make known the manner in which these markets may be secured, or how the people can use the products which we produce in abundance. I think this study should be extended beyond the city of Toronto, and if it is found that other areas in Canada are capable of absorbing products from other parts of the country, the method to be used in getting the product to the market should be studied by that branch. We do use some fruit in the Peace River district at the present time, but the freight rates are so 'high and the haul so long that the people cannot afford to buy the British Columbia product. Yet in a direct line British Columbia is very close to the Peace River country.
Coming back to my first point, I think the minister should seriously consider the possibility of reestablishing settlers from the drought area in areas which are known to be productive but are at present undeveloped. We have hundreds of thousands of acres of such land in the Peace River country, and I am sure some arrangement could be made between the dominion government and the province concerned to permit these people to establish themselves in the northern part of our provinces. I speak of northern Alberta because I know it best, but I feel sure the
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same thing applies to northern Saskatchewan, where I believe there are thousands of acres of undeveloped land awaiting settlers. Just picture the situation: we keep these people year after year in the dried out country in southern Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba, while we have at our doors vast areas of land capable of production. The result of transferring these people would be to give them a better hope in the future, and materially and permanently to lessen the amount of money required to maintain them in the drought area. A relocation of the farmers from the drought areas of western Canada in productive areas now unoccupied is a subject which offers the minister great opportunity for study and action. I should like to know whether he considers that such a survey might well be made by the economics branch of his department.


James Garfield Gardiner: The money for carrying on such work as that to which the hon. member has just referred is voted in the supplementary estimates in connection with our rehabilitation program in the drought area. It is not part of the work carried on directly by the Department of Agriculture, but it is carried out through that department under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act. We shall have opportunity of discussing that at length when we come to that vote.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Then what do the words "land utilization in Saskatchewan and Alberta" mean?


James Garfield Gardiner: These investigations are general inquiries into land utilization in all parts of Saskatchewan and Alberta-that is, occupied land. It does not refer to soil conservation, which is dealt with through the experimental farms branch and the universities of the different provinces through their agricultural colleges. It is really centralized in our plant at Swift Current in connection with the experimental farm there. The work consists of examining into the nature of different soils, and is carried on continuously. It is financed partly by the provincial governments, partly by grants from the federal government, and, as far as Saskatchewan is concerned, partly by a fund which was set up following the operations of the wheat board during the war, about $250,000, the interest on which is expended each year in making a soil survey. The whole province is now mapped. If you are going there to farm you can examine a map in my office or in any other agriculture department office in Canada and select the kind of soil you desire. The mapping of the other provinces is being proceeded with.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Do I understand that this branch of economics has the painful duty of attempting to make the drought areas produce? If that is so, then the suggestion I have made is well worthy of consideration. It might be possible to consolidate these two divisions in order that their combined efforts might 'lead to some satisfactory result.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is done now.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Well, does "land utilization" mean an attempt to revive the dried-out areas in which the people are at present living on relief?


James Garfield Gardiner: It deals with land now occupied by persons who have perhaps been living there for forty or fifty years. The economics branch gets a complete record of what has happened on that farm, analyses it and compares it with what has happened on another farm on a different type of land. As a result we get a picture of conditions in the different communities. All the information this economics branch gathers in that kind of survey is available to those who are carrying out what may be called land utilization policies. As we get the people off certain types of land, as a result of what we have found out we put them on other types of land. But the actual expenditure on this work of moving people about or doing anything in connection with those areas is made under our supplementary vote and not this vote.


Mr. STIRLING:: This work is purely statistical?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I understand that in certain provinces the land in certain areas is being repossessed by the province. Would there be any assistance from this branch to enable the provinces to know what areas they should retake or repossess? I am sure the minister is just as familiar as I am, or more so, with the particular projects going on in the various provinces.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. that work has been going on since 1935, and it is the information which has been gathered through that work that is being utilized in our present rehabilitation work.


Major James William Coldwell: I understood the minister to say that maps were available showing the classification of the soils in the different provinces. Is that work undertaken north of latitude 54 in Saskatchewan? Has the department started on that?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is some work being done up there, but I doubt if it is mapped north of 54. There is some line drawn across the north end.


Mr. COLD WELL:: I was thinking of the Goodsoil area.


James Garfield Gardiner: There has been considerable work done in the Goodsoil area. I am not sure that it is mapped, but all the settled part in the northern part is pretty well mapped.


Major James William Coldwell: The work is being continued up there? That is all I wanted to know.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


Mr. QUELCH:: Is it possible to get detailed reports of these surveys?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, the maps can be secured. They are for sale at the experimental farm, and I think they can be procured also at the university of Saskatchewan.


Victor Quelch: Is there a report as well?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, there is an inscription on the bottom of the map from which anyone can ascertain the condition of the soil at any point.


Mr. PERLEY:: I was pleased to hear the minister say that the investigation was being carried on in Saskatchewan under this branch of his department, with respect to land utilization. I suggest that if such work had been done twenty-five or thirty years ago that province would not be in .much of the difficulty with which it is faced to-day, because a great deal of it never would have been turned up to the sun by the plow but would have remained ranching country. I presume that after these reports are made the minister will carry on his work of trying to convert some of that land back to ranching country, and possibly it will be better utilized in that way.
I want to suggest that this department might well investigate the system employed in Saskatchewan in collecting cream. The creameries are established in large centres, and there is much waste under the system now employed. Several large trucking companies cover the same territory, which certainly must mean added cost. I suggest-and this has been mentioned to me by members of the dairymen's association-that zones be established for the collection of cream and routes laid out by someone in authority, in order to avoid the overlapping occasioned by the trucks covering the same territory. Certain members of the dairymen's association have represented to me that a considerable saving
o 1952-] 84
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could be effected if this were done. I should like the minister to make some investigation along that line.
I was interested to-day in listening to the hon. member for Huron North (Mr. Deach-man) making his usual address on free trade, which as usual fell on deaf ears. He said what we wanted was markets. That is true enough, but I want to see the agriculturists and dairymen of western Canada have a fair opportunity to compete for at least their own domestic market. While this importation of vegetable oils continues I do not think they have a fair opportunity even to retain their own market.


Mr. GOLDING:: I rise to a point of order. Surely it is absolutely unfair to refuse one hon. member permission to speak on a certain matter and then allow another hon. member to go on and deal with it.


William Earl Rowe: He was
supposed to have been through.


Frederick George Sanderson: I think the point of order raised by the hon. member for Huron-Perth (Mr. Golding) is well taken. I was about to rise and point out to the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) that he was out of order, for the same reason that I considered the hon. member for Huron North (Mr. Deachman) out of order.


George Halsey Perley: I shall have to bow to your ruling, Mr. Chairman, but I have been interested this afternoon to note that the only statements we have had from hon. members on the government side have been points of order, to try to shut off the discussion of one of the most important matters in western Canada to-day. If the minister will assure us that under item 12, possibly, we shall have an opportunity to discuss the question of the importation of vegetable oils, I shall be quite willing to leave it at that.


William Earl Rowe: Looking
over the report of the department for last year I see that the work of the agricultural economics branch included a study of terminal market facilities for fruits and vegetables in the city of Toronto and a utilization of farm lands in Saskatchewan. Following what has been said by the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Pelletier) I wish to bring to the attention of the minister the advisability of giving some study to the utilization of farm lands in Ontario. I quite realize that vast areas in the western provinces might be more effectively utilized, but I also believe that the utilization of great areas in the northern part of Ontario might be brought about by careful investigation and methodical research.

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James Garfield Gardiner: And southern Ontario
also.


William Earl Rowe: Most of southern Ontario is being pretty well utilized now; however, I would appreciate an extension of the study into the southern parts as well. My hon. friend from Essex East (Mr. Martin) shakes his head, but it appears to me that a study of this kind in his own district would be of great importance. I am glad he utilizes much of his time in the interests of agriculture. No studies have been made so far as I know-at least we have not observed results from any-as to what different districts might accomplish in the way of greater economic production. I believe we have fallen far short throughout the whole dominion in the utilization of our vast agricultural areas. We are many years behind in having what might be termed a zoning policy, giving special study, consideration and encouragement to different districts to produce the crops to which they are most suited. I am glad to note that even in some parts of Peace River they believe they can produce vegetables, and with good reason, because I have seen some of their vegetables which are comparable to those produced in southern Ontario. Certain districts are more suited to the raising of live stock and to dairy production, while others are undoubtedly better suited to grain production. I see some hon. members smiling with pride when they think of the Ottawa valley and districts in eastern Ontario that are more adapted to live stock and dairy production, but there are districts in central Ontario which undoubtedly are more suited to the production of grain. Other districts in the western and northwestern part of lower Ontario are also adapted to the production of live stock, while in the south and southwestern part of the province there is land the rich soil of which might be utilized to greater advantage than it is at present.
I rose particularly, however, to bring to the attention of the minister the need for study of the utilization of agricultural lands in northern Ontario. In many parts of northern Ontario there are rich and fertile agricultural soils, but the climate is cold and the seasons short. I do believe that the constant, application of more scientific methods of production in many parts of northern Ontario which today are not giving returns sufficient to encourage agricultural development, would return a substantial improvement. This is all the more important in view of the steady development of the great mining industry.
It has been my privilege to visit northern Ontario, to see some of their excellent crops and to talk to men who have shown their

vegetables at the Canadian National Exhibition and the Royal Winter Fair. I talked to a man who in one year won a championship for potatoes produced in the community outside Timmins, where the season is short indeed. I have seen the excellent herds of dairy and beef cattle in northern Ontario, and have at the same time been reminded that consumers in that district are paying more for their meat and dairy products than are the consumers in southern Ontario, despite the fact that the farmers in the district who are struggling to establish herds and to promote agriculture are at times selling their beef cattle at prices lower than those received by farmers adjacent to Toronto. Cattle are shipped to Toronto, slaughtered and then shipped back to the mining districts of Timmins, Kirkland Lake and Sudbury, and the farmers who produce meat products in that part of the country are receiving much less than the farmers in southern Ontario. These are matters closely related to agricultural economics which might be considered by the economics branch of the Department of Agriculture.
The hon. member for Peace River has truly stated that the long freight hauls from British Columbia affect the consumption in his constituency of fruits and vegetables. A similar system of freight rates affects the dairy producers in western Canada. Some years ago western Canada produced only cereals of different kinds, and was not considered seriously in connection with the production of live stock and animal products, but we have lived to see the day when the value of dairy products in Canada has been substantially greater than the value of our wheat production. Although I am not sure of 1931 and 1933, I do know that in 1932 the value of dairy products was greater than that of wheat production. Some other hon. members may be more familiar than I am with dairy production in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba. But the economics branch in its report of last year recognized the importance of the establishment of terminal market facilities for fruits and vegetables in Toronto, and it must be of equal importance to study market conditions respecting other agricultural products which must be carried by long freight hauls.
When we know that it costs $1.86 per hundredweight to ship butter from the community surrounding Winnipeg to Toronto, that it costs $2.65 to ship from the Regina section of Saskatchewan and $3.33 from the Edmonton district of Alberta, we realize at once the importance of freight charges. The rates are correspondingly large to Montreal and other eastern centres. While I am not

Supply-Agriculture-Economics
deviating from the point at issue, or for the moment attempting to answer the hon. member for Huron North, I feel that if we who live in the southern and eastern parts of Canada are to reap the benefits of industrial development and advancement we must give careful study to that phase of agricultural economics which so directly affects the welfare and prosperity of the farmer in other districts. The figures indicate that one must pay $1.10 per hundredweight to ship lard from Winnipeg to Toronto, $1.45 to ship it from Regina and $1.76 from Edmonton. Tallows and other coarse fats are shipped at cheaper rates in tank cars. Vegetable oils are shipped in to Toronto and Montreal in tank carloads at twenty-five cents per hundredweight in competition with our animal products.
The minister may contend that I am deviating from the point at issue-


James Garfield Gardiner: You have never reached it.


William Earl Rowe: It may be by your tariff board.


Frederick George Sanderson: I would ask the hon. member to confine his observations to item 7. As points of order have been raised this afternoon I must ask that -he conform with the rules.


William Earl Rowe: I shall be pleased to abide by your ruling; that is the reason I did not attempt to answer the hon. member for Huron North who, I suggest, deviated farther than I have from the point at issue. Agricultural economics with respect to marketing conditions are of vital importance. The hon. member for Peace River,
I submit, was quite in order when he mentioned freight rates in connection with the utilization of production within the dominion.
The economics branch of the department should long ere this have been directed to give more careful attention to the development of markets and the utilization of products in some sections of the country. This is a matter which, although not entirely divorced from the investigation by the tariff -board, is to some extent outside it. The other matters for the consideration of the board deal with specific items entering Canada, the wages paid, the processing, the standard of living and other matters relevant thereto. It is my firm belief that the economics branch should give careful consideration to the question whether some of the products which are regarded as not interfering or directly competing with live stock products or, in fact, are in actual competition with them.
51052-184J
We are capable of producing sufficient butter fat, lard, edible tallow and greases and oils to meet the requirements of the country. Eastern Canada alone could produce sufficient of these products to meet all requirements and, if it was profitable, western Canada could produce still more. We have 318,000 dairy farmers in Canada, all of ivhom are vitally concerned in this issue. If you ask these farmers in what branch of agricultural economics they are interested, they will reply that it is in the finding of better markets for their products. They are more interested in that than in any research as to what may be a better producing district than another.
Then the soya bean and linseed oil production should be considered. The hon. member for Essex East might give some study to the production of soya beans in his district.


Mr. MARTIN:: I made a speech in the
house on that subject.


William Earl Rowe: My hon.
friend made a speech on that matter. He also has a large automobile industry in his constituency which offers an enormous market for agricultural production.


Mr. Y OUNG :: The farmers could be helped still more by giving them cheaper automobiles.


William Earl Rowe: If the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Young) can induce the chairman not to rule against me, I shall be glad to deal with that.


Frederick George Sanderson: Order.


William Earl Rowe: I am
ordered by the Chair not to answer that question.
I should like like to see the production of soya beans and linseed oil increased, to the benefit of the agriculturists of this country. Some districts are more suitable for this type of production than others. We have the manufacturing equipment for the processing of these products. I urge upon the minister that a careful study be made of this matter, quite apart from the consideration being given to it by the tariff board. These issues vitally affect the agricultural prosperity of this dominion and concern the future welfare of the live stock industry of Canada. I say this in all seriousness and with no desire whatever to hold up the estimates.


James Garfield Gardiner: I would not suggest that at all. This reminds me of one of the hon. member's speeches that lost Ontario.


William Earl Rowe: The minister has mentioned election speeches, but all this is aside from the issue. If a careful study is not made of the effect of the importa-
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tion and use of vegetable oils upon the production of animal products, a day will come when the old-line free traders who now shake their heads will regret that they did not stop such importations in time to save the government of the day from defeat.


Robert John Deachman: Only thinking of the
old-time promises?


William Earl Rowe: The farmers are the one class of people who have not an organization to present the facts of their case to a board of investigation. They have few organizations similar to those possessed by other producers or classes in the dominion. I believe that I speak to no small extent on behalf of hundreds of thousands of dairy farmers and other farmers when I say that in these times we cannot afford to lay our home markets open to the competition of tropical countries which can produce these things much more cheaply than we can. A careful study should be made of the effect of this competition and whether these products are entering markets which properly belong to the live stock industry, the basis of agriculture in Canada.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Mr. Chairman, no hon. member knows better than I do the justness and impartiality with which you preserve order in this committee. It is for that reason that I venture to rise to say a few more words upon a subject which I cannot permit to be dropped without further explanation. A moment ago I referred to the attempts being made to develop newer areas and to remove people from drought areas into other parts of the country. The great danger in doing this is that those who do not believe in such a plan are often prone to go about the country and say that those favouring the plan desire to drive the people from their homes, from the centres which they have known since childhood and from the places where their children have received their education. I do not believe that a scheme of this type should be carried out on a compulsory basis. I merely suggest that those who desire to avail themselves of this sort of hope for the future, if I may put it that way, should have at their command satisfactory knowledge as to what they will have to face. They should be supplied with the most accurate information as to what they may expect to find in the new areas.
This is a problem with which I am acquainted personally. Five years ago the United Farmers of Alberta government took people from the Sunnynook area and moved them up into the Peace River district. A large number of these people arrived one day
[Mr. W. E. Rowe.)
at Falher. where I reside, to establish themselves some twenty miles south of the town. They came from a district where they had been living year after year in the hope of having a crop. A decisive step had been taken on their behalf. I know that this must be most boring to many members of the committee.


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not mind listening to speeches that have to do with the matter under discussion, but as I said before, this whole matter will come up under the vote for that purpose. If there is any more discussion on this item, we are prepared to listen to it, if not, I think we had better ask that the item stand.
Item stands.



DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE

[Stage Direction]
Pensions and other benefits-civil pensions- Robert Allen, $269.52.
Hon. IAN MACKENZIE (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Chairman, these and the following items on the same page are all for the payment of life pensions to civilian employees who sustained injuries in the discharge of their regular duties which resulted in permanent disability, also pensions to dependents of civilian employees who were killed in the discharge of their regular duties, the pensions being calculated on the basis of the provincial workmen's compensation acts in the various provinces. As these cases do not come under provincial or federal acts, these sums are voted every year.


Mr. TAYLOR (Nanaimo):: May I ask in what connection these injuries were sustained?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: On January 3, 1916, Mr. Allen, who ivas employed as a civilian truck driver for the mechanical transport branch, suffered an accident which resulted in a permanent disability. While he was driving a truck, the fly wheel burst into pieces, and the flying pieces struck him, breaking the bones of the ankle, also above the ankle in two places. As a result there is complete ankylosis of the ankle joint, with the foot at a right angle to the leg, and no active movement of the toes of the foot. The outer side of the foot is short almost two inches.


James Samuel Taylor: My question was asked because I have received letters claiming consideration by the government for wounds received during the strike of 1919 in Winnipeg. Is the minister able to inform the committee whether any such claims are being considered by the government?

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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In connection with the military personnel?


James Samuel Taylor: No; civilian.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It has not been drawn to my attention.


Mr. TUSTIN:: Is Mr. Allen still in the employ of the department?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No; he is not able to work, I understand.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil pensions-Florence Walker, $360.
Mark Cecil Senn: Why are some amounts larger than others? Are these cases all incapacitated and unable to work?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The compensation is based on the scale provided by the compensation act in the province in which the injury took place.


Mark Cecil Senn: It is on the same basis?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Militia services-Royal Military College, $381,500.
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: This item was discussed for a considerable time on Friday evening.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Cadet services, $139,500.
William Hayhurst: What are the amounts granted to each province?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
amounts depend on the number trained in each province. I shall give the strength in the various provinces as of August 31, 1937; Nova Scotia, 1,526; Prince Edward Island, 885; New Brunswick, 1,561; Quebec, 49,866; Ontario, 21,531; Manitoba, 1,723; Saskatchewan, 851; Alberta, 1,151; British Columbia, 1,245; making a total of 80,339.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I see that pay and allowances are provided for all ranks. Is payment made to the cadets themselves or simply to the officers commanding?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is a grant of one dollar made on behalf of each cadet between fifteen and eighteen years of age who qualifies.


Grote Stirling: Is there any allowance now for uniforms, as there used to be?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Grote Stirling: Would the minister not consider restoring to an extent that assistance towards uniforms? I should be glad if he would. I personally come into the matter to the extent of being connected with a sea cadet corps in my own town, and there is another one close by. I appreciate the work done voluntarily by those connected with these corps, and the effect on the boys so trained. The expenses which have to be met come principally at the present time out of the pockets of the citizens, and it is quite right that this should be so in many instances, because they are related to the cadets, but I should like to see a little further assistance given by the department. Considering the trend of the times and the fact that the reductions were made when times were not as prosperous, shall I say, I wonder whether the minister would not seriously consider giving a little further assistance to the cadet services.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be very glad indeed to take the suggestion of my hon. friend into careful consideration. The reductions were made in 1931, when conditions were extremely difficult. I quite agree with my hon. friend as to the valuable services performed in connection with the cadet movement, and that applies not only to the land cadets and the sea cadets but to the splendid services of the air cadets whom we have at Port Hope, and it is hoped that the air cadet service will be extended in the near future.


Harry James Barber: At what points in British Columbia are the cadet corps located at the present time?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There are twenty units in British Columbia as of August 31, 1937. I have not at the moment the locations of the stations.


Mr. MacNICOL:: How many units of sea cadets are there in Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall get that for the next sitting. They are not separated in my book from the ordinary cadets.


Mr. GREEN:: What provisions are made for enabling the sea cadets to enter the Canadian navy?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They are given every possible preference. Some of them go on to the naval reserve after training, and their training stands them in good stead. They are given every encouragement and every possible preference.


Howard Charles Green: How many sea cadets have gone into the Canadian navy?

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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I could not say at the moment.


Harry James Barber: At what age are they taken on?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: At fifteen for cadets.	*


Harry James Barber: But at what age do they go into the navy? I think it is twenty.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They can join the regular Canadian navy as boy seamen at the age of seventeen. The grants for cadets are limited to those from fifteen to eighteen years of age.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has the minister any intention of increasing this vote? Last year a number of us suggested that the vote be increased. I think it is one of the best votes we pass in this house. The cadet services have been most beneficial to this country, and from what the minister said last year I was hoping the vote would be increased this year.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I agree
with my hon. friend. The vote, of course, depends on the number of cadets who qualify for the grant. I regret to say that there has been a decrease in the last year in the number of cadets. Perhaps if the recognition suggested by the hon. member for Yale were again accorded it might improve the situation quite extensively.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Non-permanent active militia, $2,830,488.
George James Tustin: There is a considerable increase in this vote. Will the increase be allotted among the units of the non-permanent forces to give them more training in camp?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. Of the increase of $318,000, $250,000 is for additional training for all the units of the nonpermanent active militia. The actual time of training varies, according to the branch of the service, from about eleven days up to twenty-one days for some of the technical units for coastal defence.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Are they being trained with the most modern equipment?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Well, as far as the most modern equipment is available, they are. But at least they are trained in the theery of the most modern equipment. Some of that equipment is, of course, not yet available, but we are hoping to have it very soon.


George James Tustin: I was talking a few days ago to one of the officers of a regiment here,

and I learned that that regiment is to go into camp for six days. I was led to believe that they would leave home on a Sunday and arrive home the following Sunday night, which is eight days, but they are to receive only six days' pay. The minister might well see that that does not happen. The non-permanent units are certainly giving great service to the country and are by no means adequately paid for the services they render. I do not think it is fair that the government should expect them to give two days of their time for nothing. I suggest that the minister should see to it that they get eight days' pay, or that they be paid from the time they leave home until the time they get back.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am very glad to hear the observation of my hon. friend. I believe that the actual details in these matters are left very largely to the district officers commanding in the various military districts, but if there is any hardship in regard to any particular unit I should be very glad if hon. members will bring it to my attention. The general idea is to insist on at least five days' camp training. In previous years, largely owing to lack of funds, it was impossible to have much camp training; it was largely regimental and local training, but this year an endeavour is being made to insist upon camp training for all units.


George James Tustin: This is not a complaint from the non-permanent forces.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Oh, I
understand that.


George James Tustin: But I was given to understand that those are the facts in this particular case.


Harry James Barber: Will the minister explain this item of temporary assistance, $290,376?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In the group of the director of equipment and ordnance services, by military districts, the following is a summary of the number of employees: No. 1, 17; No. 2, 21; No. 3, 36; No. 4, 17; No. 5, 11; No. 6, 25; No. 7, 6; No. 10, 12; No. 11, 22; No. 12, 21; No. 13, 13; or a total of 201 employees, with additional caretakers 8, making a total of 209. The additional employees to whom I refer have been recommended by the district officers commanding in the various districts, consequent upon the reorganization of the militia eighteen months ago. Director of engineering services group: No. 1, 7; No. 2, 25; No. 3, 24; No. 4, 19; No. 5, 6; No. 6, 14; No. 7, 8; No. 10, 12; No. 11, 16; No. 12, 10; No. 13, 11; a total of 152. Miscellaneous group: M.D. No.

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3,	1; No. 5, 2; No. 6, 3; No. 7, 2; making a total of 8. Total number of employees in three groups, 369:


Harry James Barber: Is this clerical and labour?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Mostly in the caretaking class, I should think.


Mr. BROOKS:: I quite agree with the hon. member who has just spoken, about the attitude the non-permanent militia has taken during the last number of years as far as service to the country is concerned. I know personally from seeing many officers and men that they have devoted their time during the years of depression with very little remuneration. I should like to ask the minister with reference to reserve battalions in the different units. As he probably knows, there are many officers put on reserve units when they are still quite young and could be of great value to the service. There is no use made of them in our non-permanent force. The active battalions go into camp and get their training. Yet some of the best trained officers we have, whose training has entailed a lot of expense as far as the country is concerned as well as a good deal of expense to themselves personally, are not utilized in any way. It occurred to me that it might be possible for the minister to devise some way in which they could be employed with benefit to the militia and to the country. Has the minister anything in mind with regard to that matter?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: As a matter of fact that very point was brought to my attention a while ago by some of the militia officers. A memorandum was directed to the department with respect to the question. Certainly it is to be regretted that these men, at a comparatively early age, cannot be utilized except by giving the benefit of their advice and experience to the active units. The question of utilizing their services certainly deserves consideration. Of course if an emergency should arise these highly trained men are available.


Frank Exton Lennard: What steps are being taken to create anti-aircraft units?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Steps have been taken with regard to the establishment and the training of anti-aircraft units in the dominion. Unfortunately we are handicapped by the fact that orders placed by my predecessor in 1935 for anti-aircraft guns have not yet been filled. For reasons which I have no doubt my hon. friend realizes it has not been found possible to supply them. In regard to the theory of training, we have anti-aircraft units, their establishment is complete, and they are receiving training.


Howard Charles Green: I am afraid that these units which are trained in theory only will not be much use in defending the country when it comes to destroying bombers and so on. Would the minister say just what equipment it is that we have not got with which to train our defence forces?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think it is reasonably accurate to say that the training carried out in Canada compares very favourably at the present time with the training carried out in the territorial forces in England. I have authentic reasons for making that statement. Of course we have not got so far the most modern types of equipment, and in some cases that does constitute a handicap in regard to training. The two most pronounced types of equipment which are lacking to-day are, first, anti-aircraft guns, and second, the most modern type of heavy ordnance with the most modem mountings. Those are the two principal deficiencies in equipment.


Howard Charles Green: What about machine guns, also searchlights and equipment of that kind?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We have some supplies of various types of machine guns for training purposes. Of course the Lewis gun is now practically obsolescent or obsolete. We have a supply of Vickers guns and several more on order, and as my hon. friend knows, as regards the new type of gun we are taking steps now to supply our forces with it.


Howard Charles Green: Are there not also tank
battalions ?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. If my memory serves me correctly there are six.


Howard Charles Green: Have we tanks in Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We have armoured cars, which take the place of tanka for demonstration and drill purposes.


Howard Charles Green: Can we not procure tanks for training purposes?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They
have been ordered some time ago.


Howard Charles Green: In regard to these different articles of equipment that are on order is there any reason why they cannot be manufactured in Canada, or why steps should not be taken at once to get ourselves in a position to manufacture them in Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That has been very carefully considered.
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Howard Charles Green: It does not seem to get very far. Are our manufacturing plants unable to manufacture goods of this kind?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I should think they would be able.


Howard Charles Green: When is it expected that we shall be able to obtain at least enough to train our troops with?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think that before very long we shall have tanks available in Canada.


Grote Stirling: I take it item 184 or 185 would be the item under which to inquire further into the question of contracts for tanks and equipment generally?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Grote Stirling: I noticed recently that the minister attended a dinner in Montreal and spoke to employers of labour, soliciting their assistance in facilitating employees going to camps. To what extent has that been successful? Have any further developments taken place, and were employers of labour ready to grant such facilities on full time?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: On February 7 last I addressed a circular letter to the boards of trade and chambers of commerce throughout Canada, which I might read. It is as follows:
I should like to bring to attention a very important matter concerning preparation for the defence of Canada in time of war or emergency real or apprehended, and am taking the liberty of addressing this circular letter to boards of trade, chambers of commerce and other organizations through which can be reached those who employ members of the non-permanent active militia, the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve and the nonpermanent squadrons of the Royal Air Force.
Officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the Royal Navy, the permanent active militia and the Royal Canadian Air Force are competent and efficient but, as you well know, relatively very few in number. Man power which would be required in time of emergency or war would be drawn from the non-permanent forces.
The immediate purpose of this letter concerns the training of the non-permanent forces. Given that young Canadians in sufficient numbers offer to serve with the non-permanent forces, which indeed is the case, it becomes necessary to train them and this is carried out by members of the permanent forces.
Training of personnel of the non-permanent active militia, for instance, is carried out at local headquarters of the regiments or units. In the summer, training is carried out at military camps at different points throughout the country. Employers of non-permanent active militia personnel will grant that the training at local headquarters, usually carried out in

the evening, does not disturb the ordinary course of work or employment. It may be somewhat different when the employee asks leave or absence in order to attend militia training camp.
The non-permanent active militia is the first line of Canada's land defences. It is to these officers, non-commissioned officers and men that Canada must look for national security. It is submitted that these soldiers are deserving of all possible assistance and encouragement. Speaking on their behalf, I would earnestly request the sympathetic consideration of employers in making it possible for members of the non-permanent active militia to train without feeling that their positions or employment may be adversely affected by such patriotic action.
It would be greatly appreciated if the gentlemen to whom this letter is addressed would extend their cooperation by bringing this request to the notice of all members.
That letter has had a very encouraging response from all over Canada. Active committees are at work amongst employers, and already instructions have been given byseveral large firms to encourage their employees to attend summer training camps, with the assurance that there is no danger of their wages being interfered with. In other words a feeling of security has been given, and I think that will be of great assistance to the non-permanent forces.


Grote Stirling: To what extent has the reorganization of the non-permanent active militia been carried out?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think in regard to personnel of units it is practically completed. There may be some units of the technical services not entirely completed. The difficulty of course is to get the necessary equipment for training purposes.


Howard Charles Green: What is the authorized peace establishment of the non-permanent militia, and what is the actual strength at the present time?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The peace establishment as of June, 1937, was 85,982 and the strength was 45,631, but I happen to know that the training strength for the current year is 46,840.


Howard Charles Green: The peace establishment is shown in the last report of the department as 7,647 officers and 91,938 other ranks. Has that been reduced in the last year?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: As my hon. friend knows, the paper strength was reduced at the time of the reorganization. I think we had a paper strength before the reorganization of 120,000, and that was reduced to about 90,000 at the time of reorganization

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because certain units went out of existence and smaller units of a technical nature were formed in their place.


Howard Charles Green: The last report of the department is dated March 31, 1937; at that time the authorized peace establishment was over 99,000. The minister says that at the present time the peace establishment is 85,000. Has there been a reduction of 15,000 in the last year?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
figures I gave were as of June 30, 1937. Of course these would not be the figures at the present time.


Howard Charles Green: How does the minister
account for the discrepancy between the figures on page 98 of the last annual report and the figures he gives as of June, 1937?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
correct figures would not be those shown at the end of the fiscal year. These figures are entirely paper strength, and not material in regard to the actual strength of the units.


Howard Charles Green: What is the actual strength of the permanent and non-permanent militia on the Pacific coast?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: For
military district No. 11 as of June 30, 1937, the non-permanent numbered 3,249. The permanent force on March 31 of the present year was 31 officers and 299 other ranks; total, 330.


Howard Charles Green: What proportion of the nonpermanent militia is in the interior of the province-that is, would not be available for coastal defence?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I would not admit that they would not all be available for coastal defence. We consider that those in the interior would be available practically at once in any emergency.


Howard Charles Green: It seems obvious that in order to defend the coast we must have enough soldiers to man the fortifications and protect naval and air bases and also if necessary to repel raids. Does the minister think the forces he has on the Pacific coast at the present time are ample for that purpose?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Of course if there were an emergency on either coast the theory of the staff is that all the militia in Canada would be available very quickly.


Howard Charles Green: This as the minister knows is a very serious question for the people residing on the Pacific slope. Does the minister
think that the militia strength in British Columbia at the present time is sufficient to protect the people of the province? Apparently it is not recruited even up to peace strength. Would it not be possibls to recruit the units further until we have enough men there to do the job?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Recruiting has increased to a very encouraging extent in British Columbia.


Howard Charles Green: But is an attempt being
made to bring the units there up even to peace strength, and if not does the minister not think it should be done?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Every
possible encouragement is being given to recruiting; a special effort is being made not only in British Columbia but all over Canada, and I think the results are encouraging.


Howard Charles Green: Could the department supply equipment and officers for the full peace establishment of the British Columbia units under the vote which is going through at the present time?


Grote Stirling: My hon. friend is speaking of the non-permanent active militia?


Howard Charles Green: Yes, the non-permanent.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I can
assure my hon. friend that nothing has been done by the department to retard recruiting.


Howard Charles Green: I am asking if anything has been done by the department to bring the strength of the British Columbia units up to the peace time establishment. I understand they are thousands below it at the present time


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Of course, if there was any need for it we could have ample forces moved to British Columbia in very short order. It is not anticipated by anyone that the forces actually on either coast at present would be ample in case there should be a real emergency. That is not a theory upon which any system of defence is built up, because obviously it would be unworkable.


Howard Charles Green: Are there enough soldiers
in the province even to man the fortifications that are being built, and to protect the bases?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Enough are available and their positions in that regard are very carefully assigned.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Defence-Permanent Force
Permanent force, $6,087,760.
Grote Stirling: I notice a moderate
increase in this permanent force vote. Bearing in mind that the principal use of the permanent force in peace time is to train the skeleton force which we know as the nonpermanent active militia, and that this force recently has been reorganized and must be trained in the use of more modem weapons and equipments, remembering also that money is being spent on defence works on the Pacific coast, does the minister really think there is a sufficient increase in the permanent force vote to take care of that work?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I agree with my hon. friend immediately that at present the members of the permanent force are exceedingly hard worked in regard to the duties they have to perform by way of giving the necessary instruction to the non-permanent active militia. Of course it is very difficult for me to answer the question categorically. Personally I should have liked to see a further increase in the vote for the permanent force, for the purpose of carrying out these instructional duties; but after a careful balancing of the available resources, this small increase was finally agreed upon.


Grote Stirling: The minister is no doubt aware of the fact that with the completion of the batteries being erected on the Pacific coast it will be necessary for sections of the permanent force to reside in those neighbourhoods, because I assume he will not leave the guarding of those emplacements to the nonpermanent active miltia; it will have to be done by permanent force men. That will take away a certain number of officers and men from their other duties of training the non-permanent active militia, and I greatly question whether, remembering the work that falls on the permanent force at the present time, the minister has sufficient at his disposal for that purpose.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend is quite correct in regard to the duties of guarding these emplacements, which in ordinary times will take some of the personnel of the permanent force away from their other duties, but the non-permanent force is assigned the duty of actually manning these emplacements if any emergency should arise.


Grote Stirling: Quite so, and we all hope the emergency will not arise; but the guns and emplacements cannot be just left without any guard at all, and I should imagine that guard will have to come from the permanent force.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; I think that will be the arrangement.


Major James William Coldwell: I have been informed that the delay in the delivery of airplanes to the Canadian government-and incidentally to the transport service-is being occasioned by a large order for planes for the government of Japan. To-day the Toronto Star carries a story from its Ottawa correspondent, Mr. Lipsett, to the effect that an order for thirty planes has been placed in Canada by the Japanese government, and that this is likely to interfere seriously with the delivery of planes both to the government and to the trans-Canada air service. Can the minister tell us anything about this?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I was not aware of the news dispatch to which my hon. friend refers; but I can tell him immediately that those firms building airplanes for the government of Canada have not had any orders retarded, as far as my knowledge goes, as a result of any orders for airplanes for Japan. As a matter of fact, at the present moment I can make the statement that I do not think any of the firms building planes for this government have such an order; if they have, it has not come to my notice. I could give from memory the names of the firms that are building planes for this government, and as far as any information at my disposal goes they have not received an order from Japan.


Mr. LANDERYOU:: Would the minister give the names of those firms?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is Canadian Vickers, in Montreal; Fairchild, in Montreal; the Noorduyn company, Montreal; the Ottawa Car Company, Ottawa; the de Havilland company, Toronto; the National Steel Car Corporation of Canada, Hamilton; the Fleet company, for training purposes, in Fort Erie, and the Boeing company, now converted to a Canadian company in Vancouver.


Major James William Coldwell: We have a British mission in Canada at the present time, I believe, looking over the ground for the purchase of airplanes in Canada, and it strikes me that this is another matter which might be considered by the department owing to the international situation. Also in to-day's newspapers there is the story of the bombing of a Canadian Baptist mission by Japanese planes, and it seems to me we shall be placed in rather ah unfortunate position if Canadian firms are to supply Japan with planes that may be used

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for such purposes, particularly if they are likely to interfere with the delivery of the planes for which money has been appropriated by this parliament or the parliament of the mother country. I bring that to the attention of the minister and the government.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Thank
you.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: What firms are making planes now for shipment to Japan?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have no information at all.


Howard Charles Green: If I might I should like to ask one further question with regard to the non-permanent active militia. Last winter I heard complaints to the effect that the militiamen were not supplied with boots, and that in many instances this kept men from enlisting, because they did not feel that they should buy heavy boots which would be of no use to them in civil life. Is it a fact that the militia men are not supplied with boots by the government?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: As far as my information goes, the members of the nonpermanent active militia never have been supplied with boots by any government in Canada. I quite agree with my hon. friend that there is at the present time a strong feeling among the militia that they should be supplied with boots for summer camp purposes and also for ordinary training purposes, and although no definite decision has been arrived at, the matter has been receiving some attention in the department within the last month or two.


Mr. HEAPS:: Are there any factories making airplanes in Canada besides those mentioned by the minister?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Oh, I
think so; but not for us. There is one factory in Fort William, I understand, manufacturing airplanes, but not for the Canadian government.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Are they not in a position to manufacture quite a large number of airplanes in the Fort William area?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Speaking quite unofficially, I understand so.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Is it not possible that they may be making airplanes for the Japanese?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am
speaking entirely without knowledge, of course; that is possible, but I do not know.


Charles Edward Johnston: Before
those airplanes could be shipped out, there would have to be a permit issued by the department, would there not?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That
would be a matter for the Department of National Revenue, in regard to the section of the Customs Act dealing with war materials; I think it is section 290.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Supposing those were commercial airplanes which could be converted into military planes; would they come under the government ban concerning the shipment of goods for war purposes?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That would be entirely a matter of policy for the Minister of National Revenue.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Is it not a policy of the government also?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Not in 'egard to the export of planes.


Major James William Coldwell: Is a licence required
for the export of these planes? We are not recognizing any war between China and Japan.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think a licence is required. Of course this does not come under my department, and in these answers I am speaking subject to correction.


Major James William Coldwell: Perhaps the Prime Minister would tell us?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: I understand there is a licence.


Major James William Coldwell: They have to have a licence?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I understand so.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engineer services and works, $2,483,500.
Grote Stirling: Probably this is the item under which the minister would like to discuss the issuance of contracts. This involves a consideration of weapons and equipment of all sorts. My feeling, and one which I believe is widely felt, is that at least four years ago Canada was officially aware of the fact that the supplying of materials and equipment in Great Britain would prevent firms over there from being able to deliver orders from Canada and other dominions within a reasonable space of time. Shortly after this government took office we were informed that the minister was making an intensive survey of industrial concerns in Canada to find out what factories there were, and what extensions might be made for this purpose. Now that we are in the year 1938 the public is beginning to wonder how
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much information has been collected on the subject, and to what extent it is possible to employ Canadian workmen in Canadian factories for the supplying of this very much needed equipment. Would the minister give in some detail a description of the investigations he has made, and state to what extent contracts are already in their hands?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
investigation to which the hon. member refers comes under the next item respecting general stores. Some eighteen months ago an industrial survey was commenced under the direction of the master general of the ordnance. Speaking in round figures, I believe about 700 firms in various parts of Canada have been surveyed with reference to their potential capacity for production in any particular direction in the event of a national emergency. The procedure followed was that expert engineers-sometimes one and sometimes two of them-visited the plants and brought back thorough and comprehensive reports with recommendations as to what the potential capacity of an industry might be. At the present time these reports are being codified and correlated in the department, so that we shall have available a complete list of all the firms in Canada. The last figure I have shows that there are 768 firms. I believe I said in the first instance that there were 700. The greater figure brings the list up to date, and includes the whole of Canada.
In addition to this, a complete list has been prepared in the department showing the various implements and types of equipment which can now be manufactured or produced in Canada. Second, we have a list of the various types of equipment which could be produced in Canada as a result of further development, such as government cooperation with industry, or the government operating on its own initiative. Third, we have a list of those types of equipment which cannot be produced in Canada. I refer to such equipment as heavy armour-piercing shells, the manufacturing of which requires the highest form of technical skill and many years of experience.


Grote Stirling: Were they not made in Canada during the war?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I believe towards the end of the war there was a commencement made in that direction; at least that is my recollection, but I am not sure. In any case those classifications have been made.
In regard to the actual procurement may I say that since the house last met, in regard to munitions there was an order given to a

civilian firm in Montreal which is now manufacturing shells. If I remember correctly, the order was for 30,000 shells. As I stated some time ago, the main handicap is in connection with the heavy calibre guns and the modern high angle mountings which, of course, greatly increase the range of guns.
Briefly speaking, that has been the result up to date. I wish to state frankly, however, that possibly it will be necessary to go further in connection with the question of procurement. It W'ould appear to become more obvious all the time that it will be necessary in Canada to rely upon our own production and manufacturing resources for the procurement of equipment essential to meet a national emergency.


Grote Stirling: The minister referred to the 768 firms which might be used in the event of a national emergency. My point is this: Why are we not now proceeding-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I should have used the words, " prepare for a national emergency."


Grote Stirling: Why are we not now proceeding to produce some of these things? For instance, it is perfectly well known that all Canada has been able to get in the way of Bren guns has been a very small number for purposes of demonstration. Why have we not a contract at this time in some factory-[DOT]


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We have.


Grote Stirling: The minister says that we have. Would he give information with respect to it?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: May I refer to some notes I have with reference to the matter? As far back as the summer of 1936 the Department of National Defence came to the conclusion that it would be necessary to arm the forces with the Bren gun, and that 7,000 of these guns would be required. A few model or specimen Bren guns were ordered, and it early became clear that Canada could not look to the manufacturing establishments of the government of the United Kingdom as a certain or timely source of supply reasonably safe from possible enemy action. The two model guns which we now have were made not in England but in Czechoslovakia where they were invented; the Enfield plant near London cannot satisfy the United Kingdom government's requirements before several years. The fact that the United Kingdom is not only willing but anxious to order 5,000 Bren guns from a Canadian manufacturer is of utmost significance. We received direct advice to this effect from the War Office.

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This memorandum was prepared before the actual contract was let. In view of the situation then existing it was deemed advisable to consider the possible necessity of having our requirements manufactured in Canada. The probable difficulties of the position of the United Kingdom were surmised here from the beginning. Because of known variations in cost factors, heavy outlays for machinery that would be required if the guns were to be manufactured in Canada, it was known that Canadian production costs would be more than English production costs; if only 7,000 guns were to be made in Canada, it was believed that the cost would be prohibitive under normal conditions. Such has turned out to be the case, to the extent that the placing of the 5,000 order in Canada will save something more than 11,000,000 in cash to Canadian taxpayers. It is impossible to translate into dollars the other advantages to Canada in regard to extending our means of defence.
Therefore the Canadian government has let a contract for 7.000 Bren guns to a firm in Toronto, the John Ingiis Company Limited. I believe it is. Then, the War Office directly and not through the Canadian government has given a contract to the same firm for 5,000 guns. The terms of the contract were very carefully analysed and examined for over three months by the interdepartmental committee on profits, and a subcommittee of the main one gave special attention to the matter. Various suggestions were made and possibilities examined with respect to government plants, and in connection with various other methods of carrying out the contract. The contract, which I shall be pleased to place before the committee, was entered into on, roughly speaking, a basis of ten per cent cost plus. The War Office contract is on exactly the same terms and conditions as the one with the Canadian government. From information available in the department it appears that the War Office have expressed themselves as being satisfied with the terms of the contract entered into with this Canadian company in Toronto. In Australia they have a Bren plant which is publicly owned. That plant has been constructed I believe, for two or two and a half years, but they have not yet got into production. I am subject to correction when I say that in England the Enfield company were two and a half years before they got into production, but they are now producing fifty Bren guns a week. A guarantee has been given that the Canadian company will be in production within twenty-four months. As a result of the separate orders from England and from ourselves, the actual saving will be $1,3SO,000.
We are using much of the plant which we had in storage in Canada, and there will be a considerable saving on capital cost of machinery, probably to the extent of $250,000.


Grote Stirling: That is the machinery
which was in storage at Valcartier?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Grote Stirling: It is being used by this
Ingiis company?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Machinery is being supplied by each of the two governments, the Canadian government paying for two-thirds of the cost and the War Office paying one-third. The ownership remains with this government.


Mr. CLARKE (Rosedale):: Have any
contracts been given out by the government on a cost plus basis?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If my
memory is correct, there are six.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: What are the different firms?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The particulars of the contracts are as follows:
1.	18 Bristol "Bolinbroke" aircraft, contract given to the Fairchild Aircraft Company, Montreal.
2.	11 Blackburn "Shark" aircraft, contract to the Boeing Aircraft Company, Vancouver.
3.	12 Lysander aircraft, to the National Steel Car Company, Hamilton.
4.	Battery at Albert Head, British Columbia. Contract given to the Northern Construction Company and E. J. Ryan, Vancouver.
5.	30,000 shells, 20,000 of one calibre and 10,000 of another, to the Montreal Construction Supply and Equipment Company, Limited, Montreal.
6.	Bren gun contract, 7,000 and 5,000 to the John Ingiis Company, Toronto.
Reconditioning 18 Wapiti aircraft, Ottawa Car Company, Ottawa.
35 trucks, four-wheeled, 15 hundredweight, with spare tires, tubes and canvas covers, General Motors Limited, Oshawa.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: Were there any other firms that could have done the work covered by these contracts?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: These
contracts represent a very small part of the total amount of the contracts let. In other instances contracts were let by tender, either through public advertising or from selected lists. In all these instances the contracts were carefully scrutinized by the interdepartmental committee, and with one exception it was known that in each instance a competitive tender was impossible. The contract for the Albert Head work was let in this way because of military secrecy.
Supply-Defence-Engineers


Alfred Johnson Brooks: According to the particulars on page 133 of the estimates there is a decrease of about SI ,300,000 in the vote for buildings and works. I suppose the works referred to have to do mainly with gun emplacements and fortifications on the western coast. I believe the minister told us some time ago that these works were in the second stage of development.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I should like to know what amounts are being apportioned for the preparation of defence works on the eastern coast. We hear so much about the defence of the west coast that I am afraid the minister might forget that we have an eastern coast to Canada, and that the western coast is not the only part which requires defence.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Most of the work being done on the Atlantic coast under the estimates this year is in connection with the air force vote. I shall be glad to give my hon. friend the details of the money expended under that vote when it is reached. For certain obvious reasons special consideration has .been given to the Pacific coast, but I assure my hon. friend that this is not because the minister comes from there. This work is being done because of a definite recommendation by the general staff and others who are advising the department with reference to these matters. I can assure my hon. friend that there is no intention of neglecting the defence of the eastern coast.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Is it the intention of the department to start these defences this year?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Only with reference to air defences.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: At what points?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Dartmouth, Yarmouth, Truro and Sydney.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Those points are all in Nova Scotia, to which fact I have no objection. However, Saint John is one of the great ports of Canada. It is one of the focal points, so far as trade is concerned, and it seems to me there should be some development in connection with the defence of New Brunswick. Some time ago I suggested that use should be made of Sussex, the local training area in New Brunswick. I hope the minister will consider some development along these lines in New Brunswick.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be glad to remember what my hon. friend has said. A very definite plan has been prepared in connection with Saint John defences.

My recollection is that the recommendation was made that the air defences to be provided at Nova Scotia points would prove an effective defence for Saint John as well. That does not apply to the local defence of Saint John, in connection with which careful plans have been drawn up.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Will any of this item be devoted for that purpose?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: This is for air defences only.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Are we to have anything in the way of gun emplacements at Saint John, or anything else of that nature?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I do not think so as yet.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The minister must have the information.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I do not think there is.


Howard Charles Green: What is the present position with regard to the fortifications at Albert Head, the York island battery and other fortifications on the Pacific coast?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
York battery is completed.


Howard Charles Green: What about Stanley park?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The guns are in place at the York battery. The Albert Head emplacement will be completed, it is expected, by July. Other defences in the neighbourhood will be completed this year. Stanley park will be completed in June.


Howard Charles Green: Has anything been done in connection with Prince Rupert and the Queen Charlotte islands?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There were certain technical difficulties with reference to Prince Rupert, but the air base on Queen Charlotte island will be prepared during the summer. A seaplane base in the vicinity of Prince Rupert and a site for batteries in the northern area will be proceeded with this year.


Howard Charles Green: On what basis was the work done in Stanley park?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Day
labour.


Howard Charles Green: Was that on a cost plus
basis?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There was no contract at all. The work was done by day labour, with an engineer officer supervising for the department.

Supply-Defence-Engineers


Howard Charles Green: I have a complaint to make with regard to the manner in which men were hired to work on the Stanley Park fortifications. I contend this was a most short-sighted way in which to hire men. The minister assured us last year that returned men and militia men would be engaged on that work.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is correct.


Howard Charles Green: And I understood him to say last year that returned men would be chosen by the veterans' assistance committee.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I did not say that.


Howard Charles Green: There is an honorary committee in Vancouver to help the returned men find work, and there were five thousand returned men registered in that city as unemployed; yet instead of the veterans' assistance committee being asked to get the men required, I believe they were obtained in other ways and in each case had to have the approval of a representative of the minister or of the government. I would like the minister to explain that action because I think it is short-sighted, and it certainly does not help very much in solving the problem of the unemployed veteran. The work on Point Grey fortifications has not yet been begun, and I would ask the minister whether it would not be possible to have the returned men who are to work on these fortifications chosen by the veterans' assistance committee in Vancouver.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: With
reference to the total of forty-eight working at Stanley park, seventeen were selected by the committee, and the rest by various veterans' organizations, and I may say that I have letters of commendation from veterans' organizations for the manner in which these men were selected for that work. I am very much surprised indeed, when we have 100 per cent returned men and militia men working on this work, that there should be any dissatisfaction. My conception of the duties of those taking on men would be to employ ex-service men, and not a process of selection such as my hon. friend mentioned. After all, the responsibility as to the personnel employed, rests on the minister and the department, and once any returned men's organization such as the veterans' assistance committee is assured that ex-service men are to be employed, their function is to get ex-service men employed on the work. The gentleman who represented the department is an ex-service man, and I shall be very glad to show my hen. friend letters of commendation with reference to the way in which he carried out his work.


Howard Charles Green: But that does not explain why the approval of a representative of the government was required. That is what I consider patronage, and I do not think it is fair to bring that in on works of this type which are for the defence of our people.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I deny that it is a question of patronage. I have not the slightest knowledge of the political affiliation of the gentleman in question. In Vancouver and Victoria the selection of these men met with the absolute acceptance of all the veterans' organizations and the citizens generally on Vancouver island, and it is to be regretted that now, when for the first time the principle is adopted, anything should be done to destroy the excellent precedent which has been set.


Howard Charles Green: I hesitate very much to bring it up; but' personally I am certain that all these men had to pass a representative of the government, and that is the belief in Vancouver. Of course, if the minister says that is not the case-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They
were sent up by the various veterans' organizations.


Howard Charles Green: But after they were sent up, they had to pass a representative of the government. If the minister says that is not the case-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I say that in both instances, on Vancouver island and in Victoria, we had an employment officer who was an ex-service man whose duty it was to see that ex-service men got employment.


Howard Charles Green: Who were these men who were the employment representatives in Vancouver and Victoria?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Richard Stanton in Vancouver and Alexander Mac-Farlane in Victoria.


Howard Charles Green: And the only reason they were chosen was to see that the men who got work were returned men?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: And general supervision because general principles were laid down in regard to the secrecy of these works, and that only ex-service men and members of the militia should be employed, and it was their duty and the duty of commanding officers of units to see that these instructions were carried out.


Howard Charles Green: What salary did Richard
Stanton receive?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: $175 a
month.
Supply[DOT]-De je nee-E ngineers


Howard Charles Green: He had only forty-eight men to choose for work.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: At times they wanted more.


Howard Charles Green: He is still getting $175 a
month?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I assume so if he is working.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Were any special qualifications required?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: He is a man of excellent reputation, the president of one of the ex-service men's organizations in Vancouver, and, I think, very acceptable generally.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: But the minister said that if those who applied had the necessary qualifications they would be taken on; and I am asking if there were any special qualifications.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There would be trade qualifications, so many carpenters, so many of other trades, and so on.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: No politics?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Howard Charles Green: There has been a great deal of discussion in British Columbia in recent weeks about a proposed highway from the states running through British Columbia and the Yukon to Alaska. The United States authorities and the United States press have admitted quite freely that it is to be a strategic road, a military road, I would ask the minister whether his department or the government have paid any attention to the suggestion or given it any consideration at all.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I may
inform my hon. friend that many years before the present public discussion, the department considered such a project, and the general staff gave opinions with regard to it which were of a confidential nature.


Howard Charles Green: What about the present proposal from Washington and Victoria? Has the minister given any consideration to the proposal for building a highway through British Columbia to Alaska which has appeared in the press?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We have an alert staff who observe all these press dispatches, and they have frequently been brought to the attention of the minister.


Howard Charles Green: In other words, the staff of the department have been reading the newspapers?	.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They
always do. That is one of the first duties of the intelligence staff of any military department, to read papers from all over the world if they can.


Howard Charles Green: I realize that, but is the government taking any stand whatever or doing anything in regard to this proposed highway ?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The stand of the government will be made manifest by their actions in the future, if they are doing anything.


Howard Charles Green: When may we expect that stand to be disclosed?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think my hon. friend had better wait and see.


Howard Charles Green: We have been doing that for a long time in connection with a lot of things under this government.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I trust that if the minister is supervising any negotiations to that end, he will see that the conduct of the negotiations and also their supervision are restricted to federal agencies.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I quite realize the significance of the remark of my hon. friend.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Will the dwelling house which belonged to the caretaker in the town of Sussex and which was burned about two months ago be reconstructed.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It will be reconstructed.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: What is the break-down of this $1,572,000? I should like to see where the money is being spent.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be glad to do so.
Construction of buildings and works, $1,572,000; Ottawa, Ontario, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals, $12,650; Petawawa camp, water system, $2,500; gas chamber, $1,250; grading and loading platforms, $1,050; miscellaneous, $3,500.
Military district No. 1: Small arms ammunition magazine, $6,000.
Military district No. 2: Niagara, Ontario, markers' shelters, $10,000; camp buildings, $5,000; Hamilton, rifle range, $40,000.
Military district No. 3:	Kingston, Ontario, garage and gun shed, $25,000; Barrie-field, Ontario, officers' quarters, S10.000; bar-

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!917
racks square, $3,000; officers' dormitory, $50,000; roads and grading, $12,000; basement of barrack block, $10,000; sewers, $14,000; electrical, $10,000; water tank, $11,000.
Military district No. 4: Sherbrooke, Quebec, armoury alterations, $4,000; Belvedere street armoury, $1,700; Craig street armoury, floor under gun shed, $7,000; rifle range construction, $30,000; grading in the 17th D.Y.R.C.H. armoury, $2,000; Westmount, Royal Montreal Regiment armoury roof, $3,500. St. John's, P.Q., barracks, fire hydrants, $1,000.
Military district No. 5: Valcartier, new water mains, $7,600; Rimouski, addition to armoury, $20,000; Quebec citadel, repairs to citadel buildings, $22,000.
Military district No. 6: Halifax, Nova Scotia, joint service magazine, $15,000; Halifax, magazine at Fort McNab, $3,500; Wellington barracks, renew roof in officers' block, $3,000; parade grounds and roads, $5,000; repairs at King's wharf, $3,000; radio station, $8,650; Aldershot camp, roads, $2,000; Sussex camp, New Brunswick, $5,000.
Military district No. 10: Winnipeg, Man., St. Charles rifle range, road, $1,500; electric supply, $1,500; Fort Osborne barracks, roofs, buildngs Nos. 14 and 15, S3,000; radio receiving station, $5,650; new roof on power plant, $5,000; Shilo camp building program, $19,000.
Military district No. 11: Esquimalt, B.C., joint service magazine, $75,000 artificers' workshop, Signal hill, $2,800; hospital at Work Point barracks, $22,000; Cranbrook armoury, $17,000; Kamloops magazine development, $20,000; Pacific coast defences-this is the second stage, to which I referred some time ago, in regard to these various emplacements, probably about twelve or fifteen in number- $1,000,000.
Military district No. 12: Dundurn camp, completion of buildings, $2,000; Regina, radio station, $650.
Military district No. 13: Calgary, Alberta; ordnance depot, purchase of land, $5,000; Currie barracks, married officers' quarters, $11,000; Sarcee camp, additions and improvements, $10,000, total $1,572,000.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: I notice that
last year provision was made for an expenditure under this item, construction of buildings and works, of $2,857,450. This year the amount is $1,572,000, or a total dfference of $1,285,450. Why has the grant dropped off in this one specific item to the extent of over a million and a quarter dollars? I notice that all the other items which are brought forward-salaries, etc., sundries, pay and allowances all ranks, other allowances-show
an increase. The same is true as regards stores and equipment, operating expenses of properties, transport and travelling of personnel, freight, express and cartage, printing and stationery7, medical, dental and veterinary services, sundries; all these show larger amounts of expenditure; but to make the book balance a little better on the right side, it seems, we find a reduction in the construction of buildings and works of more than one and a quarter millions, although expenditures this year are approximately a million and a quarter dollars greater. Will the minister give some explanation of these differences?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
main difference, as I said before, is that the program of actual construction of buildings is not so extensive this year as it was last year. Last year we had to undertake some extensive construction works and fortifications in various places. As a result of the review made of the various amounts available, it was decided not to spend so much this year upon this particular activity of the department.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: The difference in the amount is large; but how many fewer men is it estimated will be employed as a consequence of discontinuance of construction of buildings and works?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have here a long list of the actual works which were commenced and completed last year; and as a result of those works having been completed, it is not necessary to carry on so much this year.
As regards the other question asked by my hon. friend, it would be very difficult indeed to estimate the actual decrease in the number of those employed on these projects. Of course there would be some.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the difference between repairs carried on under the item of $1,572,000 and repairs carried on under the item of $861,500?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The first is for construction only and the second is for maintenance and repairs.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister had mentioned the word "repairs" in describing the other item.


Mr. ROWE (Dufferin-Simeoe):: Under which paragraph are the works with reference to Trenton?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Well,
Trenton is in the air force vote, but it is the same kind of work.

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William Earl Rowe: Are there any works going on at Camp Borden district this year?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: A small amount of work. Camp Borden is being utilized. I shall be very glad when I come to the appropriate vote to give my hon. friend details of the numbers who are to train there -roughly, I believe, three thousand.


William Earl Rowe: Chiefly in the air force?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Two or three services are going to train there this year.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Grote Stirling: There are one or two other matters about which I should like some information. In passing, I should like to say what a pleasing and businesslike aspect is apparent on highway No. 2 at both Trenton and Barriefield. It cannot but impress the travelling public passing those places. I understand Trenton is to be the home of the Royal Canadian Air Force, as Barriefield is to be the home of signals?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Correct.


Grote Stirling: To what extent has that change taken place? Have the signals moved into Barriefield from Camp Borden, and has the air force moved into Trenton?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The air force main depot is now at Trenton. The signals have not entirely moved to Barriefield.


Howard Charles Green: Has any attempt been made by the government to reserve strategic points on the Pacific coast, either on the islands or on the mainland? I believe there are several points which may be of importance for defence purposes in time to come; probably now would be the best time to acquire them, and from the reports appearing in the papers I gather that the provincial government would be only too glad to cooperate in the matter.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There has been no reserve placed on any area in British Columbia. The intelligence branch of the

department has been alert for a considerable time now in regard to obtaining all available information in reference to the acquisition of any properties in British Columbia, learning who the owners are; that information is available.


Howard Charles Green: Is a survey being made of the ownership of lands and rights near these fortifications and bases?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, that is being done.


Howard Charles Green: Does it show whether the owners are foreigners?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Grote Stirling: Another question about which I should like some information is in regard to, shall I call it a permanent training area in southern British Columbia? I know investigation has been going on up the valley of the Thompson and in the Nicola country, and I wondered whether any decision had been reached.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No. The training area at Vernon was considered to be somewhat limited in extent, especially for the purpose of artillery training, and last year several investigations were made by the staff officers of the department in the neighbourhood of Kamloops and also the Nicola valley. I think substantial objections were found to every area which has been definitely surveyed, so that the situation at present is that no permanent area has been selected for permanent training in British Columbia. For summer camps I believe two or three places will be utilized in the coming year.


Howard Charles Green: Has the department under consideration any move to complete strategic highways across British Columbia? I believe the minister will agree that at present it is impossible to cross the province by road.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No; as a department we have no plans under way in that regard.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General stores, $3,854,437.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Is it under this item I might say a word in reference to the stores at Lindsay?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
Lindsay arsenal has been reopened to a

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small extent. It is anticipated that a sum between 8100,000 and $130,000 will be expended there during the current year, largely in an experimental way in testing its capacity for certain purposes with reference to ammunition and cartridge cases. The present proposal is to manufacture at Lindsay arsenal brass cartridge case discs for production of quick firing cartridge cases. Already an amount of $10,000 has been appropriated for reopening the plant. It is hoped that orders will shortly be placed for the purchase of equipment to an estimated value of $26,000. An additional amount of $4,600 will be required for overhauling the present equipment. When the financial estimates were prepared it was thought that the industrial firm selected to manufacture cartridge cases would provide a supply of brass discs. Later it was decided that there might be considerable difficulty in getting metal of uniform characteristics. It was subsequently found advisable to reopen Lindsay arsenal for the production of this metal. Funds are provided in the general stores vote for the production of ammunition in Canada.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The Lindsay arsenal has been visited by the minister. I am glad to hear that he proposes to do something with it this year. The site is one of the best in Canada, and in the past a great deal of equipment was manufactured there. Reading in the press of late that a number of companies have been given contracts for the manufacture of munitions and supplies, I have wondered why the government itself does not put that splendid plant into complete operation. Wages there are at least not higher than anywhere else. While I am not an advocate of low wages by any means, perhaps they are as low there as in any centre making the same kind of equipment. The buildings and a large amount of machinery are there, and it is too bad if contracts have to be given to outsiders for material that could be produced at Lindsay in a plant owned by the government. The minister probably knows better than any hon. member of this committee what use these buildings are capable of. I commend to his consideration the possibility of further increasing the production of these supplies in that fine community of Lindsay.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I quite agree with my hon. friend. The matter is also being pressed upon me by the hon.
member for Victoria. Ont. (Mr. McNevin). The estimated expenditure will be:
Engineer services	$ 10,000
New equipment	 26,000
Overhauling present equipment.. 4,600
Estimated wages	 29,000
Material	 57,000
Sundries	 3,500

I may inform my hon. friend that if it is decided to go ahead with any further development towards procuring supplies as a government enterprise, the claims of Lindsay are very much before us.


John Ritchie MacNicol: This year?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Mr. McNEVIN:: As the item under discussion covers the proposed production of certain material at dominion arsenal No. 2, which is located at Lindsay, I desire to make a few observations. First, I want to express to the minister my appreciation of the start which has been made in preparations for production in the rolling mill and foundry divisions of the plant, thus fulfilling the intimation given by the minister last session when his estimates were under discussion. Yet, Mr. Chairman, this development covers only a limited part of the extensive buildings and equipment connected with the Lindsay arsenal property. I feel sure that the minister, and in fact every hon. member, will agree that the more extensive the operation, the more the overhead expenses could be reduced. May I point out that these arsenal buildings were erected in 1915 and 1916, and are of modern construction. Except for some inside machinery and equipment which may be obsolete, the plant has been maintained in excellent condition.
With regard to the location, which is an important point in connection with the production of military supplies, the arsenal at Lindsay is situated approximately in the centre, from east to west, of the Dominion of Canada, forty miles north of lake Ontario and, of course, far inland from our northern shore. Industrial factories of this kind, in the event of some act of aggression against our country, in all probability would be the object of attack from the air. Transportation facilities are also of great importance in connection with the production of munitions or military supplies. May I point out that both large railway companies operating in Canada have direct connections at this centre, and there is also the Trent canal and
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the through highways. Considering these facts, are we not correct in assuming that the location is ideal for an industry of this kind?
With regard to sources from which we may secure arms, munitions or kindred supplies, is it not true that on account of conditions which are well known to all of us, Great Britain has been forced to concentrate upon the production of military supplies for her own use? Consequently the delivery of similar materials required by Canada, which have been purchased in Great Britain, has been unavoidably delayed. In addition, is there not a strong possibility that if conditions in Europe were to become more aggravated, this source of supply would be seriously affected?
There is another source from which we obtain substantial quantities of these supplies. I refer to the private corporations of Canada. I have always maintained that the government should not enter into competition with private business in regard to overseas orders for commodities of this sort; but when it comes to the requirements necessary to take care of our own defence program, I believe we owe it to the Canadian taxpayers, who supply the funds for these purposes, to use to the fullest possible extent the buildings located at Lindsay, Ontario, which represent the only government-owned munitions factory in this province.
In seeking to direct the attention of the minister and the members of the committee to the importance of this matter, Mr. Chairman. may I point out that I believe a majority of those present in this chamber will agree that the conditions which prevail throughout the world at the present time are so serious as to warrant careful consideration of the advisability of reconditioning the remaining facilities that are available at this arsenal for the manufacture of munitions or military supplies. This suggestion, if it were adopted, would provide increased employment for our Canadian workmen.
With regard to the materials which it is possible to produce at this point, may I suggest for immediate consideration the manufacture of shells; the manufacture of hand grenades, the manufacture of guns, or the assembling of gas masks? In addition, if it is not possible in the near future for the government to utilize the entire plant and equipment, I believe we have large orders pending for overseas, and the minister might consider permitting the use of a portion of this plant by some of these other companies which otherwise might be forced to construct buildings. I believe this would be an economical move,

I commend this additional thought to the committee. Defensive equipment, regardless of type or class, is of little value unless ample supplies of munitions are available. In the event that the estimate under discussion is insufficient for the purposes referred to, I would ask the minister, in whom I have every confidence, to consider very carefully whether he should not increase the figure or provide for a much more liberal expenditure in the supplementary estimates, which could be considered later in the session.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall
be very glad indeed to bear in mind the observations of my hon. friend in regard to the Lindsay arsenal.


Frank Exton Lennard: Would the minister explain the increase of S47.300 in transport and travelling of personnel?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: This provides for the transportation and travelling expenses of inspectors of arms and munitions and the transportation of arsenal employees between Quebec and Valcartier. It has not been definitely decided whether this arrangement will be put into effect or whether it will be necessary to make some adjustment in the wages of the employees who commute between Quebec and Valcartier. My hon. friend will understand that the movement from Quebec to Valcartier will take place soon, and this increase is to take care of that added expense.


Mr. ELLIOTT (Kindersley):: There is quite a decrease under stores and equipment. What is the explanation of that?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is a net decrease of $2,189,015, the principal reason being that the full value of requirements for armaments, stores and munitions was provided in 1937-38, whereas for 1938-39 only that portion likely to be spent during the financial year has been included, owing to the uncertainty of obtaining deliveries.


Mr. MacINNIS:: I think the details on page 134 of the estimates largely have to do with the dominion arsenal. What is the number of employees, other than the officials mentioned in the details?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There are thirty permanent civilian employees and four temporary civilian employees. In addition, there are those who are paid so much an hour. I shall have the number in a moment.


Angus MacInnis: The employees I have in mind are those covered by the amount of $619,676 for wages.

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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed that the number is about five hundred.
I think I tabled a reply to a question two or three days ago, giving the number as 539.


Angus MacInnis: What are the trades and the rates of pay in connection with those trades?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: 
John Charles Landeryou: Under the sundries item there is an increase of 810,000; what is the nature of that?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I should like to make a small addition to my former reply. The figures I gave were maximum figures. For instance, I gave a maximum of 53 cents for labourer, female; there is a minimum of 22 cents. In another section, group 4, I gave 314 cents, and there is a minimum of 22 cents an hour. Then, for a labourer I
gave 65 cents an hour, and the minimum there is 18 cents an hour. In the work shop, for machinists, group 1, I gave the maximum of $1 an hour, while the minimum is 684 cents.


William Hayhurst: At page 134 of the estimates I find an amount of $1,500 for a physician; is that only a part-time physician?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


William Hayhurst: I had brought to my attention the case of a boy who enlisted as a private and last fall contracted infantile paralysis. He was placed in Christie street hospital, Toronto. I went to see him. I understand that when I went he had been sick for a couple of weeks, and it occurred to me that perhaps the doctor had not properly diagnosed the case. The boy had been set to work scrubbing floors, and while he was at that work he was overcome by paralysis. He is still in bed. I was thinking it would be well to have really efficient medical men employed.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall look into that case.


John Charles Landeryou: What necessitated the increase in the vote?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In the item for sundries there is an amount of $10,050. This sum provides for the protection of property at Valcartier. This service may be carried out by the personnel of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, or through other arrangements as decided by the department. Then there is an amount of $50 for unforeseen items at the dominion arsenal at Lindsay.


Mr. MALLETTE:: When will repairs be resumed on the drill hall at Montreal?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I cannot give a definite reply. Requests have been made to have the necessary funds available for the work, but I cannot give a definite reply.


Joseph Léon Vital Mallette: The few militia units using the hall would like to see the work finished. Resumption of this work would provide employment for quite a number of men. I am sure the people in Montreal would like to see the scaffolding that has been there since last fall disappear.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: This
comes under the Department of Public Works, but I believe the work may be done at an early date.


Grote Stirling: What progress is being made at Valcartier in connection with taking over the filling station? Has it been moved, and, if not, what are the prospects of getting it started at Valcartier.
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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Within three or four weeks possibly we expect to have the movement commenced.


George James Tustin: This afternoon the minister said it was almost impossible to get antiaircraft guns. Is it possible to have those guns manufactured in Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We are very hopeful that this may be possible. The matter is being carefully investigated by experts of the department at the present time.


George James Tustin: It seems to me that is one of the most important matters before us today. We should take some steps towards getting such equipment as anti-aircraft guns under way, and I believe the minister might well consider the matter at the earliest possible moment.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Richard Langton Baker: We are here considering an expenditure of $3,854,437. What is the government receiving by way of production from this expenditure? In running an industry the important thing to know is what one is getting for his expenditure.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The only answer I can make is that we are getting a certain measure of national security.


Richard Langton Baker: Are they not producing material at all?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; we are getting supplies, equipment and ammunition.


Richard Langton Baker: We have no memorandum showing the actual production from the expenditure of this money. This just shows expenditures for salaries, and so on; if we are receiving nothing we ought to know it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Perhaps if I were to describe in general terms the purpose of the vote I may answer the question of the hon. member. This is the information I have: For purchase, maintenance, repair and inspection of clothing, equipment and ordnance stores for the permanent and non-permanent active milita including armament stores, medical dental and veterinary stores, mechanical and water transport, telephone signal and wireless equipment, maintenance and upkeep costs in connection with manufacture and output of munitions at the dominion arsenal; construction, repair and upkeep of arsenal buildings and plants; freight cartage and other incidental expenses.
'Mr. Stirling.]


Richard Langton Baker: The minister mentioned the output of material. I suppose those materials are made through the expenditure of these wages. I may be wrong, but the overhead seems tremendous as against the wages paid to labourers or workers. What material are we getting for our money?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Does the hon. member want a detailed list?


Richard Langton Baker: No.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Perhaps I should give a few of them. They are as follows:
Cartridges, S.A. 10,500,000.
Chargers, -303-inch cartridges, 2,100,000.
Boxes, ammunition, 11,050.
Cartridges, S.A. ball, -303-inch, 500,000.
Cartridges, Q.F. three-pounder, cordite, 3,000.
Boxes, ammunition, Q.F. three-pounder, repaired, 188.


Richard Langton Baker: That is the answer; apparently we are receiving something for the expenditure.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes: I have a long list of articles here to read.


Richard Langton Baker: Has the minister any idea of the total value in dollars of it all?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Richard Langton Baker: What is the amount? I want to see if the minister is running a good factory.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
amount is $1,153,773.


Richard Langton Baker: That is all we are receiving by way of value out of the expenditure of $3,854,437, is it?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No; there are many other details in regard to clothing, etc. I shall give the hon. member some other items-clothing and armament stores and munitions, wireless, signals and various other services.


Richard Langton Baker: I doubt very much if it is an economically operated factory.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I must say to the hon. member that the dominion has the reputation to-day of making the best munitions in the whole world.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Naval Services - Royal Canadian Navy, $5,744,297.
Grote Stirling: Canada now possesses two torpedo boat destroyers built by Canada in 1929 and commissioned in 1931. She has two A class destroyers purchased from Great

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Britain in 1935, and two which we are expecting this summer. That will make six. She has one tender, with three more building, and a three masted schooner for training purposes.
I believe that completes the craft afloat.
I remember that in 1909 Sir Wilfrid Laurier adopted the policy of providing Canada with a flotilla on each coast. If I remember rightly, he actually got so far as to call for tenders for the construction of at least some of them. With that in mind I wonder if the minister could tell the committee whether we are working toward a program. Perhaps the minister could refer to this if he cannot describe it in detail. Are we doing that, or are we merely living from day to day or from year to year? The defence situation of Canada has changed entirely with the change from disarmament to rearmament. Obligations to both the east and the west are such that Canada should be working toward a definitely laid out scheme. This scheme possibly could not be completed this year or the next, but it would be an objective towards which we would be working.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: When the general staff committee made their survey a year and a half or two years ago, certain recommendations were made with reference to all three branches of the service, that is, the air force, the naval and the militia services. Some progress has been made in that direction although not as far as the recommendations suggested.


Frank Exton Lennard: Are the ships of the Canadian navy oil burners exclusively?
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver):	The
destroyers are oil burners and the mine sweepers will be coal burners.


Frank Exton Lennard: Upon whom do we depend for our supplies of fuel?
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver):	Plans
have been made to ensure an adequate oil reserve. I understand this has been done through the Canadian oil companies.


Frank Exton Lennard: Do these supplies come
from Trinidad or the	United States?
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver):	The
crude would come from wherever the Canadian companies get it, but steps have been taken to ensure the necessary oil supplies.


Frank Exton Lennard: It is possible that Canada might be involved in a war along with Great Britain, and any oil supplies from the United States would be cut off if that country remained neutral.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That
question has been surveyed very carefully in the last three months. 1 can just repeat my previous reply, that arrangements have been made to provide an adequate oil reserve in Canada.


Frank Exton Lennard: Certain ships in the
British navy are equipped with dual firing machinery to permit some of the boilers to be fired wtih coal. I think it would be a good move on our part if something like that were done in connection with our ships. We have supplies of coal on both the Pacific and Atlantic coasts, and in case of emergency we would be able to use Canadian coal. This would also help the Canadian mining industry.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall
be glad to note my hon. friend's suggestion, but he can rest reasonably assured that proper provisions are being made.


Mr. KINLEY:: There are certain features
of this vote in connection with which I should like to make a few remarks. I think more should be known about this matter by the public, especially the public along the Atlantic coast. 1 refer to the personnel making up the several units of the Canadian navy. As I understand, the Naval Act of 1910 provides for a purely voluntary service. In this it is somewhat different from the Militia Act. There are three units making up the personnel of the Canadian navy. First, there is the permanent force which includes those men who make the navy their profession; second, the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve which is composed of men who make their living from the sea, such as fishermen and men in the merchant marine; third, the Royal Canadian Voluntary Naval Reserve which is composed of men who have a liking for the sea.
I understand the permanent naval force is to be increased this year, and I think it would be well if the young people of our country knew the conditions of enlistment in the Canadian navy. However, what I am particularly interested in at the present time is the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve. I understand that this force has an authorized strength of 500 men and officers but that there are only 240 in it at the present time. The age limits for enlistment are eighteen to thirty years. A man who joins this force as a naval reservist is given S45 a year as a retaining fee, as it were. He trains six weeks during his first year of service, for which he receives on the average $1.80 a day. This works out to about $100 a year. The opportunity to earn an extra $100 a year may be very attractive to a young fisherman on the

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coast of Nova Scotia. The course of training would also improve his seamanship and benefit him mentally and physically and at the same time he would be cooperating in a scheme for the defence of the Canadian coast.
I submit that schools for the training of men who enroll in the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve should be established in the seaport towns of Nova Scotia. The training is done during the off season. There are armouries in many of the towns along the sea coast, especially in the riding which I represent. I realize the mechanics of the problem would have to be worked out by the technical naval officers of the department, but I believe if naval instructors and equipment were supplied these schools could be carried on with very little expense.
It occurs to me that there should be coordination between the Department of Labour, with its troubles in connection with employment, and the naval and militia branches. Earlier in the discussion of these estimates we were told that in the air service it takes seven men on the ground to maintain one man in the air. I consider it most important that we should manufacture as much as possible of the material used for defence purposes. When we manufacture airplanes we are creating technically trained labour which would be available should the need for defence ever arise. In the meantime we are providing employment in civil life. We are creating future artisans to take their place in the civil life of the country.
Years ago the defence of the country was a different matter. The farmer, for instance, who lived on a farm was usually a good horseman, and his horse provided the best method of transport. He had his rifle and was a good shot, also a good scout, and so the farmers made a splendid unit of defence. But that has changed. The defence of the country is subject to the changes progress has brought in other directions. Science demands that you must train men in the laboratories for defence; also in our industrial plants, where machinists and mechanical engineers are at work, we find a training field for the youth of Canada that is especially valuable and very desirable. It seems to me that if the Department of National Defence would cooperate with the Department of Labour in every way possible they would be able to train men for the engineering trades in our industrial plants, and this would also help the unemployment situation. Industry in this country should assume some part of the burden, and it might well be required to train men in the indus-[Mr. Kinley.l
trial plants of Canada. I once suggested to the Minister of Labour that we might even go so far as to have subsidized apprenticeships so that our young men might be trained for some skilled work which they could follow as they grow older, because it is well known that when a young man gets up to be twenty-one or twenty-two without any objective he is inclined to become a drifter instead of helping out in industry.
I think men could be trained, particularly for the naval service. Our fishermen are good pilots, skilled in the handling of boats, and resourceful. This training will improve their condition; it would mean for young men more earning power and give them a better standing in their profession. I trust the minister will explore the situation fully. I know he has already looked into the possibilities, and I hope he will explore them further with particular reference to the Atlantic coast.
The Royal Naval Reserve is to a large extent built up from the merchant marine. They have a flag. It will be recalled that we had a discussion in this house this session about a national flag for Canada. The merchant marine may fly the naval reserve flag, which is the blue ensign, with the coat of arms of Canada on the fly. In order that this flag may be flown, a certain number of the crew must be naval reserve men, and the ships that are permitted to fly it consider it an honour. The old idea was that if the ship had a gun crew they could fly this flag. The flag is flown by some of the boats of the Canadian merchant marine. The flag, to seamen, has a language all its own, and is very important.
We have heard a great deal about how vulnerable the Atlantic coast is to attack. Our distance from European powers, however, is an element for safety because enemy craft upon the sea or under the sea and in the air are handicapped in working a long way from their base. So Canada's geographical position does provide us with an element of safety, but not sufficient.
Many people think our defence preparations against coastal attack should include submarines. The submarine is like a shark in the water. Nobody likes to go into shark-infested waters, and there is also the same fear of the submarine. It might be particularly valuable on the coast of Nova Scotia because at certain seasons of the year we have fog. This fog and other conditions make the coast of Nova Scotia not a desirable place for strange craft to hover. It seems to me that under such conditions the submarine would be especially valuable as part of our defence

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preparations. On our coast between 1914 and 1918 and this applies particularly to my own riding, our shipping suffered very considerably from submarines and raiders along our coast. I have here a list of the vessels that were sunk off the Nova Scotia coast. Some other Nova Scotia vessels that were destroyed were registered in the West Indies; otherwise, I think this list is complete, and it shows what may happen when raiders make their appearance, which they might do at any time.
Vessels returning from the fishing banks followed the coast as close to the shore as they could. In those days, when power was not used, there was danger in approaching too close to a lee shore, and one vessel went ashore and was lost with all hands. I desire to place this list on Hansard. It shows that twenty-seven vessels from Nova Scotia and two from New Brunswick were lost by enemy action off the coast of Nova Scotia from 1914 to 1918. The list is as follows:
List of Nova Scotia Vessels Registered in Canada Lost During the War
Steamships (fishing)	Gross	Date ofVessel	tonnage	lossTriumph	239	Aug. 20, 1918Sailing vessels (cargo) Industrial	330	Oct. 4, 1918Chas. Theriault.. ..	339	Ophelia	130	Hilda R	136	Nov. 5,1917Dorothv Duff	180	May 17,1917Duchess of Cornwall	152	Willena Gertrude ..	317	July 21,1917Jean	215	McClure	220	Mav 24,1917Thomas	132	Apr. 21,1917Lillian H	473	Nov. 1916Perce	365	Feb. 2,1917Mayola	146	Feb. 16,1917Harrv W. Adams. .	127	Dec. 24, 1916St. Olaf	323	Aug. 19.1915L. C. Tower	564	June 1915C. M. Walters.. ..	107	Aug. 25, 1918E. B. Walters.. ..	126	Aug. 25,1918Elsie Porter	136	Aug. 28. 1918Gloaming	130	Aug. 26, 1918Pasadena	119	July 1918Potentate	136	Aug. 30, 1918Verna D. Adams . .	132	July 1918Lucille M. Schnare. .	121	Aug. 20, 1918Uda A. Saunders ..	125	Aug. 20, 1918Nelson A	72	Aug. 4,1918
Name of owners
National Fish Co., Limited, Halifax. Joshua E. Backman et al. La Have.
John T. McRae, Harbor Grace, Newfoundland. Wm. Duff & Sons Ltd.
E. H. Wharton Davies, Liverpool.
Jno. T. Moulton, Newfoundland.
Harvey & Co. Ltd., St. John's, Newfoundland. Estate of G. M. Cochrane, Fox River.
Robin. Jones & Whitman Ltd., Halifax.
Henry W. Adams, Lunenburg.
Henry W. Adams, Lunenburg.
J. Newton Pugsley et al, Parrsboro.
Estate G. M. Cochrane, Fox River.
Zwicker & Co. Ltd., Lunenburg.
Zwieker & Co. Ltd.. Lunenburg.
W. Norman Reinhardt, LaHave.
N. J. Parks. LaHave.
Wm. Duff et al, Lunenburg.
Simon Parks et al, LaHave.
Wm. Duff et al, Lunenburg.
Artemas Schnare et al. Lunenburg.
Zwicker & Co., Ltd., Lunenburg.
Henry A. Amiro, Halifax.
27 vessels all told. There were also 2 New Brunswick vessels lost: Dornfontein, 771 tons; Eretria, a steamship of 3,463 gross tonnage.
Note.-In some cases, the date of loss is not known.
Prepared from the records of the Department of Marine.
We in the east realize the position of British Columbia, and the needs of that province in regard to defence. I think that what the minister is doing is in keeping with what the people expect for the defence of the coasts of this country. Such preparations are desirable and extremely necessary at the present time, and I want to commend the minister for his energy and his department for the progress they seem to be making in this work.


Howard Charles Green: Did I understand the minister to say to the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) that the government was building up a navy according to a program?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No. What I said was this, that naturally recommendations were made by our own staff with reference to our own requirements in all branches of the service, and within our financial resources and limitations we have done, I think, more than has ever been done before in this country in trying to improve our naval defence.


Howard Charles Green: Conditions are quite different from what they were before. Surely the department must have some plan for a minimum navy for the defence of Canada's coasts. Does the minister say that no such plan has been drawn up?
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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have
already stated that plans have been drawn up with reference to each branch of the service, but naturally these plans are confidential and cannot be disclosed by the minister.


Howard Charles Green: The governments of Great
Britain and Australia seem to feel that they can take their peoples into their confidence with regard to plans for naval defence, and I cannot see why the Canadian people should not be told just what can be expected in the way of a navy. If that cannot be done, what is the objection to having a special parliamentary committee, representative of all parties, before which the facts could be placed? You would then in all probability get the unanimous support of the whole house for a plan for the defence of our coasts. I should like to know from the minister what objection there can be to such a procedure being followed.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: So far as I personally am concerned, there would be no objection at all. If that were the feeling of the house committee, I would be only too glad to give my hon. friend all the information I have myself with reference to the plans of the Department of National Defence. But I would say that these plans are disclosed when the estimates are presented to parliament and are discussed as fully as they can be. No Minister of National Defence can outline definite plans for the future in this dominion. We are endeavouring to do the very best we can with the information at our disposal, and every single thing which has been done in the last two and a half years has been done according to a very carefully laid down plan, a plan laid out by the three service staffs of the Department of National Defence.


Howard Charles Green: Does the minister not think it would help a great deal if he could have a special committee appointed upon which all parties in the house would be represented and let them consider the plans which the department have?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: As far as
I am concerned, all that that committee could get is the information my hon. friend is now getting. I think he is being very successful in obtaining all the necessary information. There is no disposition on my part to withhold from my hon. friend all the information I have myself with reference to all the activities of the department. But if he is going to endeavour to pin me down this evening to a definite and comprehensive plan for the future, I am not going to make any such declaration.


Howard Charles Green: I would not attempt such a difficult thing as to pin the minister down.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Hear,
hear.


Howard Charles Green: I think it would be a waste of good time. But I do suggest that this country is entitled to know what sort of a navy it is going to have. This government just goes along from year to year, buying a ship here and a ship there, and expecting us to sit back and be satisfied, and when we do ask for information the hint is thrown out that " that is none of your business."


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Every
single question asked by my hon. friend has been answered.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I am very much interested in the remarks made a few moments ago by the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg (Mr. Kinley), and I heartily agree with his suggestion regarding a naval reserve and the employment of some of our maritimes fishermen. As a matter of fact, this is one of the first suggestions I have heard for the benefit of the fishermen from the maritime provinces since I have been in the house.
In mentioning the different ships we have for our defence on the Atlantic coast, I thought the hon. member might mention His Majesty's Canadian ship Venture. Down in the eastern provinces we have heard a good deal regarding this ship, since she was built, and we hear that as a " venture " she was a very poor one, not only for the Department of National Defence but also for the contractors and the workmen, and in fact for everybody that had anything to do with her. I should like to ask the minister certain questions with reference to this vessel. I note on page 22 of the report of the Department of National Defence, 1937, that this vessel was built by' the Meteghan Shipbuilding Company in Meteghan, Nova Scotia. The contract price for the ship was $57,508. I should like to know if there were any other tenders at the time this contract was let, the number of tenders, and the amount of each.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Tenders for construction were called and quotations as follows were received:	The Meteghan
Shipbuilding Company, Meteghan, N.S., $57,508; W. C. McKay & Sons, Limited, Shelburne, N.S.,	$59,395; Smith & Rhuland,
Lunenburg, N.S., $60,102; George E. Wag-staff, Port Greville, N.S., $64,650; Halifax Shipyards Limited. Halifax, N.S., $64,996; Yarrows Limited, Victoria, B.C., $98,572; The West Coast Salvage and Contracting Company, Limited, Vancouver, B.C., S118,402.

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Alfred Johnson Brooks: These tenders, I understand, were for the ship completed, all ready to be turned over to the department?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No; I
understand that during the process of construction the firm which was building this ship went bankrupt, and the department had to take it over from the construction firm and remove the ship to Halifax.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Was the ship not completed before this company went bankrupt?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Not
quite. I understand that certain final work of completion had to be arranged by the department.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: What was necessary to
complete it? What is the minister's understanding of the further work which was needed?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think, less than a thousand dollars' worth of extras.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The minister says "I
understand" and "I think." I should like to have something definite from him. We have heard these understandings and thoughts all afternoon. We are entitled to definite information.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The contract called for progress payments in varying percentages being made in accordance with the several stages of progress in construction. To date these payments amount to $51,655.20, leaving a balance of $5,852 due under the original contract price.
In the autumn of 1937 it came to the department's attention that the contractor was seriously involved financially. There were large claims against the contractor from parties who had supplied material, equipment, machinery, etc., used in the construction of the vessel, and from the bank which had made an advance on a promissory note. In addition, there were claims by the dominion government in respect of sales tax, the provincial government for provincial taxes, workmen's compensation assessments, etc., and for unpaid wages to the contractor's workmen, all of which the contractor had no funds to meet.
At that time the vessel was almost completed, but the contractor's financial position prevented him from doing the further work required, and the department under the contract therefore took over the ship for this purpose. She was brought around to Halifax as she was being hazarded in the berth where she was lying at Meteghan. The ship was completed by the dockyard authorities, duly commissioned, and has carried out its winter training program in the vicinity of Bermuda.
After the ship had been taken over by the department, the majority of the creditors held an informal meeting in Halifax with the contractor and his solicitors, and it was decided to proceed under the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act, 1933. A court order approving a scheme of arrangement under that act was issued. The scheme provides for the contractor, assisted by a committee of creditors, negotiating with the department to determine the amount to be paid by the department for the construction, etc., of the ship, and, upon the amount being so determined, the same will be paid to the Eastern Trust Company as trustee, to be disbursed by the trustee to the several creditors as set out in the scheme.
The contractor has submitted a claim for additional compensation, which has been examined in detail by the technical naval officers, their report being received within the last few days, and this report is being considered in principle by the deputy minister, the judge advocate-general and Mr. Burchell. K.C., of Halifax, the agent of the department of justice, who was consulted in the matter. This is the situation with reference to the Venture.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I understand, then, the ship was practically completed?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: But that they still owed a considerable amount to creditors.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Did the government take over the responsibility of paying these creditors?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No, not yet.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Is it the intention of the government to pay?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I understand that this committee is still reviewing the situation. The final report is not yet before the minister.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Well, I shall ask the minister: Is it the policy of his department or any other department of the government, when a contractor becomes bankrupt and has certain obligations and debts, for the government to come to the aid of and pay the creditors of that particular bankrupt?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No; I should say that would not be the policy. At the same time I would think that if there

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were wages owing to workmen in a bona fide way, it would be reasonable for the government to see that those wages were paid.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Then I understand the sums which are being paid are being paid only to the workmen?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: As I say, no final settlement has yet been recommended to the minister by the committee.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: How much money did this company owe at the time it went into bankruptcy, and to whom were these amounts owing?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The department is not yet familiar with all the amounts owing by the bankrupt company.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: How much had the department paid the Meteghan Shipbuilding Company at the time it went into bankruptcy?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Payments totalled $51,655 leaving a balance due under the contract of $5,852.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Was there not considerable trouble during the building of this ship over the wages which this company paid? That is, it was not paying according to the schedule laid down for contracts of this kind. Was there not an investigation?
Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver); Yes; certain complaints were made and they were immediately referred to the Department of Labour, which sent an investigator there and asked us to hold back a certain amount of money.	*


Alfred Johnson Brooks: WThat was the amount?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It was


Alfred Johnson Brooks: And that was for the benefit of the workmen?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: To make sure that funds would be available to settle any amount owing.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Was that not held back by the Department of Labour for the benefit of the workmen?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It was held back by the Department of National Defence consequent upon the investigation by the Department of Labour.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: For the benefit of the workmen?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I understand so, yes.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Are the workmen receiving the amount that was held back?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I do not think a final decision has yet been made.


Howard Charles Green: The minister has stressed the need for naval forces with which to attack a raiding fleet and any bases which might be established on our coasts. What type of boat does he expect to use for that purpose? Apparently at present he has only destroyers. Has there been a report from the department concerning the advisability of using submarines, motor torpedo boats and similar craft?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The available reports are definitely against our using the types mentioned by the hon. member.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The minister stated this afternoon that in these contracts it was his desire to have, and his efforts were devoted to having as many returned men employed as possible. Is he aware how many returned men were employed in the construction of this ship at Meteghan?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Were any representations made to him that returned men were not being employed?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am not aware of any.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The minister probably forgets, because I called his attention to it myself. I had a number of complaints that the man in charge would not employ returned men at all unless they belonged to his own political party. I *wrote the minister to that effect. Out of 100 men employed on this work I understand only two were returned men. I understand also that the men's wages were held back; that they were paid wages below the scale; that some weeks they were not paid at all; that they would have to buy their goods from Mr. DeVeau. the contractor; that the prices charged them were away above the average, and the whole matter was something of a disgrace. I am not blaming the minister personally, but it certainly did not reflect any credit on his department.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I assure my hon. friend that as soon as the department discovered the situation, everything possible was done to correct it. I frankly admit that it was an unsatisfactory piece of work.


Howard Charles Green: What arrangement has the Canadian government with the British government for the training of our naval personnel, officers and men?

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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is an exchange of officers; our naval officers take specialist courses of various kinds at the various staff colleges, and some of them go to sea; and some of the ratings also have training in the British naval forces, and our cadets proceed there for two years' training.


Howard Charles Green: The position then is that all our cadets who are to be the officers, and some of the ratings, go to the British navy and are trained there?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think all the officers have training at one time or another in the staff colleges of the British navy.


Howard Charles Green: Not only in the stall colleges, but they train on the British ships?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Some of them are sent to sea for certain periods.


Howard Charles Green: Do we pay anything for that service to the British navy?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Is that included in this vote?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any chance for a Canadian officer to get promotion in the British navy?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If he is a Canadian officer going for training he remains a Canadian officer, and returns for promotion in the Canadian naval force.


Howard Charles Green: But are there facilities for a Canadian officer in the higher grades going on up the ladder in the British navy?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am not aware of any occasion when that takes place.


Howard Charles Green: Why were the two destroyers, Vancouver and Champlain, scrapped a year or two ago? It would seem that they might have been kept as training units.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Because they were not the property of the Canadian government; they were the property of the British admiralty, and they were scrapped by order of the British admiralty.


Howard Charles Green: Has the government made any attempt recently to borrow any other naval vessels from the British admiralty?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Howard Charles Green: Would it be possible to do
that?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am not in a position to say whether it would or not.


Frank Exton Lennard: From what Canadian oil companies is the fuel procured for use on the destroyers?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I understand that at present the purchases are being made from the Imperial Oil Company.


Frank Exton Lennard: What price is being paid?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am sorry I cannot give that information; I do not know.


Grote Stirling: Did the Venture travel around from Meteghan to Halifax under her own sail?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Grote Stirling: Has she auxiliary power?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. 1
may say that while I said the contract was unsatisfactory, the ship is an excellent ship. According to the reports we have received, she is first class. But the way in which the contract was carried out was unsatisfactory to the department.


Grote Stirling: Does the minister know what cost was incurred after she reached Halifax? I understand she was completed by dockyard help. How much was logged up against her at Halifax?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have
not the amount before me, but I understand it was only a few hundred dollars.


Howard Charles Green: Is it possible to build
destroyers and submarines in Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, certainly.


Howard Charles Green: Why is, the government not making some attempt to build our destroyers here?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In the
first place the cost would be very much more; in the second place the time taken would be four or five times as much, and in the third place the very best thing possible was done with the resources at our disposal.


Frank Exton Lennard: Is the coal used on the
coal burning naval ships strictly Canadian coal?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
H.M.C. dockyards and armament supply depots, $422,260.
Howard Charles Green: How many dockyards are
there in Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Two:
Esquimalt and Halifax.

Supply-Defence-Supply Depots


Howard Charles Green: Are those dockyards large
enough and well enough equipped to handle a fleet of the British navy? Apparently we are depending upon the British navy to protect us; are we at least able to furnish bases for these ships?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It would depend upon the strength of the fleet in those harbours.


Howard Charles Green: Could the dockyard at
Esquimalt take care of a battle cruiser, or of a 10,000 ton cruiser?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think
for ordinary repairs the dockyard would be adequate.


Howard Charles Green: What would it cost to fit
this dockyard so that it would be suitable for repairing units of the British fleet, that is, ordinary units such as cruisers or battle cruisers?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have
no knowledge; I have made no estimate as to that nor have I been asked for any estimate.


Percy John Rowe: Would the minister explain the reduction in this item?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The sum of $200,000 voted last year for the construction of buildings at the joint service magazine at Esquimalt has been reduced this year to $120,000, a decrease of $80,000.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Are any oil supply
depots available on the Pacific coast for the use of the British navy?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Not at
the moment. The facilities would be at Esquimalt, if we decided to have storage there.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I should like to point out to the minister the vast natural resources of Alberta in regard to oil; I believe that is an asset of which we should take cognizance. I think eventually the oil resources of Alberta will prove of material assistance to both the Canadian navy and the British navy, and I think it should be part of the work of this department to look into the question of the supply of oil. Oil is known to exist in Alberta in unlimited quantities. The department might also turn its attention to the tar sands at Fort McMurray, where we understand there are many millions of barrels of oil which could be very easily piped to Vancouver for the use of the Canadian navy. I think matters of this kind, when it comes to the question of supply depots, might very well be considered by the government, and I was wondering if 
anything had been done in the line of research work into the possibility of developing those oil fields in order to assure a supply of oil in case of need.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Not by the Department of National Defence.


René-Antoine Pelletier: The minister was probably busy and did not follow my question. I asked if it was the intention of the government to have any sort of survey made in order to ascertain whether or not those supplies could be used in case of need. As I said, I believe the resources of Alberta in that regard are almost unlimited, and certainly they would come in very handy in time of need for both Canadian and British navies. I was wondering if the department had made any survey along that line with a view to ascertaining what use might be made of this oil and how quickly it could be made available.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I may say that investigations have been made. I am not at liberty to disclose the nature of them, but I shall be glad to keep the observations of my hon. friend in mind.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: There is an item of $20,400 for the repair and upkeep of properties, which is an increase of $10,400, and another item of $31,600 for operating expenses of properties, an increase of $8,000. What is the difference between the repair and upkeep of properties and the operating expenses of properties. I suppose general repairs would come under one, but what would be the operating expenses of properties?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
appropriation for operating expenses of properties for 1938-39 is $31,600. The explanation is that this is to cover electric light and water services and the heating of buildings for dockyards and naval armament supply depots. The explanation of the increase is this: Last year it was $14,735 and this year it is $17,900, and the increase of $3,165 is required owing to the additional buildings to be serviced in that fashion during the coming year. There is an increase of $4,600 in the heating of the buildings, which is required owing to additional buildings to be serviced during the coming year.


Howard Charles Green: Is the overhaul of ships of the Pacific coast squadron done at the government dockyard at Esquimalt or let out by contract?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I understand that most of the repairs are carried out by the department and the drydocking is done by civilian firms.

Supply-Defence-Air Force


Howard Charles Green: Is the government not
equipped with a drydock there in which the work could be done?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Evidently not.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Royal Canadian Naval Reserves, $319,800.
Alan Webster Neill: Early in the session the minister told us that he was either contemplating or actually had in operation a scheme for developing some system of naval reserves on the Pacific coast. Could he give us some particulars as to the progress made, the number of men enlisted, the terms of enlistment, when they are trained, and so on?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: As I told my hon. friend two or three weeks ago, before the session commenced we had a naval officer of wide experience survey the situation with the idea of having a fishermen's reserve if possible on each coast. We have just completed the survey on the Pacific coast and intend to proceed with one on the Atlantic. The officer in question has submitted a definite suggestion to the department, and it is hoped that action will be taken, if not this year, at least early next year on both coasts.
Mr. NEIiLL: You have not any men actually signed up yet?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No. It would not come into effect until next winter, when the fishing fleet will be laid up.


Alan Webster Neill: I understood from the press that the officer actually had been up the coast, made contacts with fishermen and gained their consent.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; I think in his preliminary surveys he obtained from them their willingness or otherwise, when their ships were laid up in the winter, to enter such a fishermen's reserve. Of course the agreement could not be proceeded with until next winter.


Alan Webster Neill: How long would the training be?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I do not think the final details have been worked out as to the length of training, but I would think probably it would be a month or so.


Alan Webster Neill: Could the minister indicate what would be the anticipated enlistment, or what would be the size of the force?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: About two hundred, I think.


Alan Webster Neill: On the Pacific coast?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Alan Webster Neill: All fishermen?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air services-Royal Canadian Air Force- permanent air force, $9,410,567.
George James Tustin: What are the qualifications required of a man entering for training as a pilot in the Royal Canadian Air Force and also the qualifications required of the young fellows who go in for training as mechanics?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I assume the hon. member refers to the qualifications for training as a pilot. These are the qualifications:
To qualify for ab initio flying training in the Royal Canadian Air Force applicants must be-
(a)	Of pure European descent, sons of parents both of whom are or if deceased were at the time of their death British subjects, or naturalized British subjects;
(b)	unmarried;
(c)	medically fit for full flying duties;
(d)	between the ages of 18 and 25 on the 1st of June in the year in which he is applying for entry;
(e)	a graduate of the Royal Military College or a graduate of a four year course in the faculty of applied science, arts, arts and science, law or forestry of a recognized Canadian university;
(f)	otherwise suitable including appearance, character and personality;


George James Tustin: What are the qualifications for a young man wishing to qualify as a mechanic?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: To be eligible for non-flying list commissions the candidates must fulfil the following conditions:
(a)	They must be of pure European descent and must be British subjects and the sons of parents both of whom are or if deceased were at the time of death British subjects.
(Where there is doubt the burden of proof will rest upon the applicant.)
(b)	They must be unmarried;
(c)	They must be medically fit, in accordance with R.C-A.F. standards, and otherwise suitable.
(Medical examination to be completed on form M.F. B 336.)
(d)	They must have attained the age of twenty-one years but not twenty-five on the 1st of June of the year in which the candidate is applying for entry.
(No extension of these age limits can be allowed.)
(e)	They must be graduates of-
(i)	Royal Military College;
(ii)	The applied science, commerce or arts (in commerce) faculties of a recognized university, or possess certificates of having passed the intermediate accountancy examination set by a provincial chartered accountants association.
Supply-Defence-Air Force


Frank Exton Lennard: Do those qualifications
apply to mechanics?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In the
stores and accounts branch of the Royal Canadian air force, for permanent commissions.


Frank Exton Lennard: But they are not mechanics.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
applicant for enlistment to the Royal Canadian Air Force as an unskilled man must:
(a)	Be a British subject resident in Canada, the parents of whom are (or, if deceased, were at the time of their death) British subjects.
(b)	Be medically fit (category A) and unmarried.
(c)	Be free from engagement with any other service of His Majesty's forces.
(d)	Be willing to enlist for a period of three years for general service at any place to which he may be posted or transferred.
(e)	Be willing to be vaccinated and inoculated.
(f)	Have attained his 18th but not his 45th birthday.
(g)	Be in possession of an entrance examination certificate or its equivalent.
(h)	Be of good moral character. A certificate to this effect is required from the principal of the last school attended, a clergyman, or another responsible person.
7.	Applicants who are qualified as above are eligible for enlistment as unskilled airmen.


George James Tustin: When a young man enlists in the Royal Canadian Air Force, does he enlist as an unskilled man, if he wishes to qualify as a mechanic?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is another special provision for skilled men. It is as follows:
In exceptional cases, an applicant may be enlisted as a skilled man (tradesman). In addition to being qualified as in paragraph 6, he must pass a practical and theoretical test in one of the air force trades. Before arrangements are made for this test, proof must be submitted in writing that the applicant has been employed at his trade for at least three years, and that he is proficient in it.
9. Some of the trades covered by this paragraph are:	Fitter, carpenter, metal worker,
cook, fabric worker, machinist, tailor, wireless operator, etc.


George James Tustin: Possibly I am not making myself clear, but we know that in the Royal Canadian Air Force there are a great many mechanics who work on aeroplanes. The question I am asking is this: Does a man enlist as an unskilled worker to qualify as a mechanic, or how does he enlist if he wishes to become a mechanic?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If he enlists as a mechanic, he must have the qualifications I have just read for a skilled man, otherwise he would have to enlist under the other section I read.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: Would the minister give some idea as to the purpose of our air force in Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; the purpose of the air force in Canada is to cooperate with the naval and militia services for the defence of Canada in the case of an emergency. While I shall not answer at length, it has been said in general debate that an air force is not primarily for defensive purposes. I must say that the advice I have received from those supposed to be qualified to advise is to the opposite effect. They say an air force can be as effective in defence as it may be in offence. So far as the plans drawn up in the Department of National Defence are concerned, may I say that the entire purpose of the air force is to combine, according to carefully prepared plans, with the land force, if necessary, and with our small sea force for the protection of our focal areas, our trade routes and our coastal areas and, if we were neutral, for the protection of our neutrality.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister has mentioned the protection of our neutrality. A matter occurs to me which, I believe, has not yet been discussed in the house. Within the last few days we have heard a great deal as to the possibility of Canada supplying planes or other munitions of war to Great Britain. In that case I fancy it might very well be that the first objective of any attacking force would be the factories in which such aeroplanes or war materials are being produced. In such event I fancy it would be difficult to protect our neutrality. It would be difficult to remain neutral if we were actively engaged in supplying materials of war to any nation, whether it be a British nation or a nation outside the empire. I should like to ask whether or not any arrangement has been arrived at by which no materials would be manufactured in or exported from Canada without a licence from the Department of National Defence, and whether in the granting of such licence consideration will be given to the added dangers which, it seems to me, would come to Canada because of the manufacture in this country of munitions of war.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
licence referred to by the hon. member is not given by the Department of National Defence.

Supply-Defence-Air Force
It is a permit given, under the amended section 290 of the Customs Act, by the Department of National Revenue, which deals with these matters. Majr I say further that the Canadian government has not been a party in regard to the supplying of any munitions. In two or three minor cases up to date the British government have given orders to Canadian firms. One would be the National Steel Car order at Hamilton, and we know they have given an order for the Bren gun to the firm in Toronto to which the Dominion Department of National Defence gave an order. With these exceptions, very few orders have been placed with Canadian industry by the British government.


Mr. WOODS WORTH:: When I referred to Canada I did not mean the government of Canada. I had Canadian firms in mind. It does not seem to me that this is a matter which concerns merely another department, in the same manner as other exports might concern that department. It seems to me these matters are vital to the welfare of the whole of Canada, especially from a military standpoint.
If I may repeat, it seems to me that the very fact we were producing munitions would create a greater danger for Canada, either the physical danger of being attacked or the constitutional danger in case we wished to remain neutral. Has the Department of National Defence taken these matters definitely into consideration when the contracts are being let to Canadian firms?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The hon. member may rest assured that every possible consideration is being carefully weighed with respect to these orders.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Is the Department of National Defence consulted before any licences are given for the manufacture or export of munitions of war to other countries?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes,
naturally, because I think they are naturally referred to the governor in council. I think all these permits are referred to the governor in council, and the Minister of National Defence should be familiar with what has taken place.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: There is a difference of nearly $2,000,000 in the amount allowed for stores and equipment this year as compared with last. What is the explanation of this large decrease?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The large decrease in this item is chiefly on account of 51952-186
the reduction in the number of aircraft, together with equipment and spares therefor, to be obtained during the current year as compared with 1937-38. In the estimates for the Royal Canadian Air Force provision was made for 102 machines, whereas this year seventy-five are provided for. It is anticipated that delivery cannot be obtained during the year of all stores and equipment ordered. Provision is being made to the extent only to which deliveries can be expected during the current year.


James Samuel Taylor: Will the air pilots on the Trans-Canada Air Lines have any rating in the permanent air force?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They have not at the present time, but it is expected that conferences will be held to discuss the point raised by my hon. friend.


George James Tustin: Getting back to the matter of qualifications, I am still not clear as to what the minister said with regard to qualifications. but possibly I am not making myself clear. The point is that a certain number of young men have enlisted to become mechanics in the air force, and I should like to know if those men enlisted as unskilled workers or if they had to have special qualifications? I understood the minister to say that in connection with unskilled workers it was only necessary to have passed the entrance examination.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall
be glad to send over a copy of the printed regulations dealing with the qualifications for enlistment in the Royal Canadian Air Force. The position with reference to the enlistment of unskilled men is exactly as I read it.


George James Tustin: I can understand the situation as far as the skilled men are concerned. Men are continually being trained as mechanics, and I understand that the air force prefer to train these men along their own lin?j. The department has advised certain young men whom I know that they must have at least four years secondary school education, and I was not quite clear as to the necessary qualifications.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They cannot enlist as skilled men unless they have certain qualifications which are stipulated; the regulations provide for the training of men as tradesmen after enlistment. The qualifications are set out in detail in the pamphlet to which I referred.


George James Tustin: I should like to have a
copy of that.

Supply-Defence-Air Force


Grote Stirling: With this new method of preparing the estimates, I notice it is very seldom noted that the appropriation was not required, that is the appropriation in the estimates of the previous year. In connection with this vote, we have been given to understand that orders placed in Great Britain for airplanes have been considerably delayed. Does the minister follow me?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am sorry; I do not.


Grote Stirling: A total of $10,595,000
was voted last year for this item. Was that all spent?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Grote Stirling: With the present method of submitting the estimates, where would the balance appear?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Part of
it may lapse and part of it may be revoted later on.


Grote Stirling: In the form of supplementaries?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: They may come in the supplementaries or they may lapse altogether.


Mr. McNIVEN:: The minister said that
the vote last year provided for 102 airplanes. How many have been supplied?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We have about 60, but that number may be one or two out one way or the other. The great proportion of those are light training planes. The heavier planes included in the 102 provided for last year could not be delivered so soon.


Donald Alexander McNiven: Will the vote for the
42 planes lapse? Are those planes under construction, and, if so, where?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: A certain amount of the vote of last year will lapse.


Mr. EDWARDS:: The hon. member for
Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) put a question to the minister in connection with contracts placed in Canada by the British government. Is any direction given by the Department of National Defence in the placing of those contracts?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In certain instances the British government might ask the Canadian government for information as to the ability of a certain firm to

carry out certain work, but the contracts are let directly by the British government to the individual industry concerned.


Alexander McKay Edwards: Has the department
made a complete survey of plants throughout the country equipped to do certain work?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The survey is not complete, but extensive work has been done in that connection. We have surveyed 768 firms throughout the dominion.


Alexander McKay Edwards: That work is being done.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is
being done now.


Howard Charles Green: How many modern first line aircraft have we?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That
is what I said a minute ago. Most of those that were completed are of the training type. My hon. friend presumably refers to the fighter or service type. Very few of those are completed yet, probably not more than twelve.


Howard Charles Green: How many shall we have
as a result of this vote? What is the total number provided for now, including what we have actually on hand?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: At the
end of this year, 203.


Howard Charles Green: Those are service machines?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Service and training combined.


Howard Charles Green: How many service machines will there be?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think I had better give them by types.


Grote Stirling: Before the minister begins, are the 203 being built in Canada?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No;
some of them in England, thirty-three of them.


Howard Charles Green: Would the minister indicate, when he gives the list, which are service planes and which are training planes?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: First,
the fighter planes; it is expected that seven will be ready next year at this time. Then bomber and army cooperation, twenty-four; flying boats, four; Stranraers, seven; torpedo bombers, sixteen; coastal reconnaissance, eight.


Howard Charles Green: That first list is of service
planes.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.
Then the training planes: seven of the 621; twelve of the 626; forty-three fleets; twenty-six tiger moths; eight Bellanca-these are

Supply-Defence-Air Force
obsolete now-sixteen Fairchild 71; one Fairchild super 71; twenty Deltas; four Norseman. The trainers are the tiger moths.


Howard Charles Green: So one year from now we
shall have only seventy-eight service machines, according to those figures. Is that correct?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is
approximately correct.


Grote Stirling: That will be the case
only if delivery is made by Great Britain in time. These Wapiti are being built in Great Britain?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We
have them here in Canada now.


Grote Stirling: Has the government
ever considered getting over that difficulty in the way I understand Australia has? When the money is voted it is placed in a fund in London, so that it actually passes from the country for that purpose.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes;
that has come to our attention. They have a trust fund, I understand, especially for that purpose. I am informed-I am not sure whether it is correct-that under the provisions of our Audit Act that could not be done so far as Canada is concerned.


Howard Charles Green: What aircraft cannot be
built in Canada? The service craft?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Any
aircraft of any kind can be built in Canada. I am certain that our industry is equal to the production of any type of aircraft.


Howard Charles Green: There is no reason why Canadian factories could not at the present time produce the most up to date aircraft?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No reason - at all; factors such as time and capital expenditure could be overcome if sufficiently large orders were forthcoming.


Mr. McIVOR:: I want to say that the Department of National Defence have been very busy in finding out just what our first-class airplane factories are capable of doing. I know our Fort William factory has had several visits from the department's experts. I say this only because I feel sure that we are going to get two or three big orders before very long.


Howard Charles Green: Where is the construction of buildings and works, costing $1,508,000, as given in the details on page 138, to take place?
51952-186J


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The details are as follows:
The amount submitted is $1,508,000.
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, $410,000, made up as follows:	Radio station, $7,000; services,
$28,000; water supply and pump house, $30,000; barrack block, $50,000; airdrome-grading, runways and so forth-$195,000; administration and single officers' building, $100,000.
Sydney, Nova Scotia, $70,000; Truro, $100,000; Yarmouth. $100,000; No. 1 aircraft depot, Ottawa, $55,000; R.C.A.F. station, Ottawa, $55,000; Trenton, $134,500; Petawawa, $15,000; Winnipeg, $5,000; Calgary, $13,000; Vancouver, $268,000; Alliford Bay. $75,000; Kamloops, $32,500; Patricia Bay, B.C., $100,000; Prince Rupert, $75,000.


Howard Charles Green: Will that complete the air base at Patricia bay and Prince Rupert?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No. I think it will only take care of the acquisition of the property and the commencement of grading operations for the preparation of the ground.


Mr. HAMILTON:: In view of the discussion which has taken place as to contracts for war material and equipment, perhaps it would not 'be out of place for me to point out to the minister and the government that most of this material is based on steel, and that again is based on iron ore. I believe I am correct in saying that there is no iron ore mined or produced in Canada. The maritimes get their supply from Newfoundland, and central Canada gets its supply from the United States. Should the neutrality laws of the United States be such that they could not supply Canada with iron ore, the whole bottom of our steel industry drops out. I think I am correct in saying that there would be very little reserves of iron ore in supply at any given time in Canada. Iron ore is of vital importance to ensure Canada of a continuous supply of steel, which goes into the production of wa* materials and equipment of every kind. As the committee no doubt knows, we have plenty of iron ore resources in Canada, although unfortunately it is of a low grade. We have also different types of iron ore. Because of the bounty that has been granted by the Ontario government, the mining of iron ore is now being developed north of my constituency, where there is a large supply of siderite ore, and they contemplate being able to develop that with the assistance of 'the bounty. There are many types of iron ore that can be successfully used in our blast furnaces. I rose just to point out to the committee that if a supply of war material is important to Canada, and important to Great Britain through Canada,
Supply-Defence-Air Force

then the supply of iron ore becomes a significant and vital consideration for us to keep in mind.


Angus MacInnis: I think the hon. member for Algoma West (Mr. Hamilton) is not correctly informed when he says there is no iron ore produced in Canada. My information is that iron ore is being produced at the present time in British Columbia and being shipped directly to Japan. To-night we are appropriating money to defend the Pacific coast of Canada from a country that we insist on arming.


Henry Sidney Hamilton: If that is the case, I think it must be a recent development; for the information I had not very long ago was to the effect that iron ore is not mined in Canada. If it is being shipped from British Columbia to Japan, that is something new to me. I accept the hon. member's statement.
Mr. TUSTIN; How many Canadians have enlisted in the Royal Air Force, that is the imperial air force?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The total will be ten a month, one hundred and twenty.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Is it proposed to establish any other air fields than those the minister has already mentioned?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Those I have mentioned are all those that are covered in the estimates for 1938-39. As regards the future, I could not speak with any definiteness at the present time.


Howard Charles Green: What developments are to be made at the Jericho air base this year?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We are building two hangars. As my hon. friend knows, two were built last year. There are further extensions of the nature of officers' quarters.


Howard Charles Green: Is any more property being acquired?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I understand that application has been made to the exchequer court for more property. The application may be heard some time during the present year.


Howard Charles Green: Is that for buildings or just vacant land?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I believe that both buildings and land are included.


Howard Charles Green: What buildings are to be acquired?
fMr. Hamilton.]


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is to the west of where the barracks are being erected at the present time.


Mr. STEWART:: I notice that the amount for pay and allowances for the current year is $2,866,000 as against $2,188,000 odd last year. In order to save time, I shall combine two questions in one: Will the minister give the total number of all ranks that will be involved in this item, and also the rates of pay and allowances for the different ranks?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
numbers are 247 officers and 1,823 air men.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: That is for the coming year?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: For 193839, a total of 2,070, at a cost of $2,866,904. The rates of pay and allowances are quite extensive. Does my hon. friend wish to have them all? They are involved

pay on appointment and rations and quarters and married allowances. Perhaps, if I gave the pay on appointment to the various ranks, that would be sufficient.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Yes.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Air
commodore, $5,000; group captain, general list, $4,300; wing commander, general list, $3,700; wing commander, non-flying, $2,900; squadron leader, general list, $3,300; squadron leader, non-flying, $2,500; flight lieutenant, general list, $2,850; flight lieutenant, non-flying, $2,050; flying officer, general list, $2,350; flying-officer, non-flying, $1,550; pilot officer, general list, $2,100; pilot officer, non-flying, $1,300; warrant officer, No. 1, $1,460; warrant officer, No. 2, trade, $1,314; warrant officer, No. 2, standard, $1,241; flight sergeant, trade, $1,222.75; flight sergeant, standard, $1,095; sergeant, "A," SI, 131.50; sergeant " B," $1,076.75; sergeant " C," $1,040.25; sergeant, standard, $1,003.75; corporal "A," $967.25; corporal " B," $912.50; corporal " C," $876; corporal, standard, $821.25; leading aircraftman, "A," $876; leading aircraftman "B," $821.25; leading aircraftman "C," $784.75; leading aircraftman, standard, $730; aircraftman 1 "A," $839.50; aircraftman 1 "B," $784.75; aircraftman 1 "C," $748.25; aircraftman 1 Standard, $893.50; aircraftman 2 "A," $784.75; aircraftman 2 "B," $748.25; aircraftman 2 "C," $711.75; aircraftman 2 standard, $620.50.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: In addition to that, varying allowances, I suppose?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Oh, yes, varying.

Supply-Defence-Air Force


Grote Stirling: I am not clear as to which this property is in the vicinity of Jericho. The minister says it is west of the new barrack building now proceeding. I am not sufficently acquainted with the points of the compass to know where it is. Is the road leading past that to the present air force north and south? If it is, west of that would be behind the barrack property on the beach.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No; I think application has been made to the exchequer court to expropriate the property now occupied by Mr. Spencer-twelve acres, I think.


Howard Charles Green: Does that include the very large home of Mr. Spencer?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think that is included in the application.


Howard Charles Green: What is it to be used for?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I would think, for single officers' quarters.


Howard Charles Green: Has the minister any idea of the price?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No; we cannot say. It will be determined eventually by the exchequer court.


Howard Charles Green: Was there an offer made by the government?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: As I understand it, in matters of expropriation those items are not included in the estimates; they are payable out of the consolidated revenue as a result of the judgment of the court. There is nothing included anywhere in these estimates for it, is there?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think there is an amount in this estimate towards that purpose. It is $30,000.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Would the minister be
good enough to say what portion of the vote for the year 1937-38 amounting to $10,-
595,000	has not been expended, and the major items of the vote of last year in respect of which there has not been a full expenditure?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed that the final figures are not available as yet, but that the average underspent will be less by way of proportion than it was in some previous years. That is the only definite information I can give my hon. friend.


Howard Charles Green: Could the minister explain why a home of that nature, a very expensive home, should be necessary for single officers' quarters?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The
recommendation was made by the officers of the department. I think a saving will be effected as compared with single officers' quarters, that otherwise would be constructed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Non-permanent Air Force, $987,050.
Howard Charles Green: The minister said during his main speech on these estimates that there were to be two non-permanent squadrons. Where are they to be located?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There are two in Montreal


Howard Charles Green: No; the two new non-permanent squadrons.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The location of the twelve, which is the total number contemplated at the present time, is as follows:
No. 110, army cooperation squadron, Toronto;
No. Ill, coast artillery cooperation, Vancouver;
No. 112, army cooperation squadron, Winnipeg;
No. 113, fighter squadron, Calgary;
No. 114, bomber squadron, London, Ontario;
No. 115, fighter squadron, Montreal;
No. 116, coast artillery cooperation squadron, Halifax;
No. 117, fighter squadron, Saint John, New Brunswick;
No. 118, bomber squadron, Montreal;
No. 119, bomber squadron, Hamilton, Ontario;
No. 120, bomber squadron, Regina;
No. 121, fighter squadron, Quebec.
The three to be organized are Nos. 114 116 and 117.


Howard Charles Green: Does that include the two new ones?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It must, because twelve is the total number arranged for.


Grote Stirling: These are not by any means all in being now, are they?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No, not all.


Howard Charles Green: Apparently a year from now we shall have only about seventy-eight modern fighting planes. Will any of these be available for the non-permanent air force?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; it is hoped that we shall have not only trainers but also advanced trainers a little later.
Supply-Defence-Air Force


Howard Charles Green: But will any of these modern service planes to which the minister has referred be available for the non-permanent squadron?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. May I say further in reply to the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) that those which have been organized or are in process of organization are the following: No. 110, Toronto; No. Ill, Vancouver; No. 112, Quebec; No. 113, Calgary; No. 115, fighter squadron, Montreal; No. 118, bomber squadron, Montreal; No. 119, Hamilton; No. 120, Regina; and No. 121, Quebec.


Grote Stirling: Are they complete with officers and other ranks?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Not altogether. Some just in process of organization.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil government air operations, $356,000.
Grote Stirling: These are operations for other departments?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Grote Stirling: Have they increased in amount?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: A decrease of $5,000 this year.


Harry James Barber: Is it under this vote that the operations on the Pacific coast in connection with fisheries and forest fire control come?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No, this is mostly for photography, in the northwest part of the province.


Grote Stirling: What portion of this will be for surveying?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is practically all for that purpose. The break-down
is as follows:
Pay and allowances	$	1,000
Stores and equipment	 265,000
Aero gas and oil	  47,000
Overhauling aircraft engines and
equipment	;	 25,000
Transport and travelling	 10,000
Telephone, telegraph and postage.	300
Sundries	 7,700

Stores and equipment:
To provide for the replacement of one aircraft complete, which was destroyed by fire, with cameras
and equipment	 [DOT][DOT] $ 85,000
To purchase two spare engines. .	19,500
To provide for purchase of air craft spares for recently purchased Delta aircraft	 27,500
fMr. I. Mackenzie.]
To defray balance due on four
Delta aircraft	 110,000
To purchase aircraft equipment for
air survey purposes	 9,000
Film required for photography. ..	14,000


Grote Stirling: Do I understand that the requirements for topographic surveys are still furnished by the Department of National Defence?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; we do the photographic work. I have a detailed description of the operations. The requirements of air survey take the Royal Canadian Air Force from coast to coast and from the United States boundary to the arctic circle, and the demand for new work is always greater than can possibly be accomplished. In 1937 the Royal Canadian Air Force detachment photographed from the air a total of 77,500 square miles. The photographic season is from the time the snow melts to the first snowfall of the following winter. Last year because the snow did not arrive until December the aircraft were kept on photography a month later than usual, with the result that the work which normally is done in the winter, such as overhauling aircraft engines and cameras, had to be hastened in order to get the aircraft out to their work in the west where the snow disappears earlier than in the east. Two aircraft are almost ready to leave for British Columbia- this was written on March 10-where they will be operating in Barclay sound on the west coast of Vancouver island. Two detachments, five aircraft in all, will be sent to the drought areas of Saskatchewan and Alberta when the snow leaves the ground. They will continue a detailed survey commenced last year until the ice breaks in the Great Slave lake area, when the detachment will change to floats in order to fly into the Yellowknife district. When the work there has been completed they will return to the prairies via lake Athabaska, where the opening up of a new mining area has created a demand for detailed maps. The fourth detachment of two aircraft will be located in Nova Scotia, and on completion of their work in that province they will be operating in Quebec in the Fort Coulonge area. In addition, another aircraft will be sent to photograph the Bruce peninsula. Although the program of operations has not been definitely decided by the committee appointed for this purpose, it is expected that it will require approximately 400 rolls of film and around
2,000	hours of flying time.


Harry James Barber: Are some of these planes
equipped with pontoons?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.

Supply-Agriculture-M arke ting


Harry James Barber: Do they use the air fields
prepared by the Department of Transport?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.
They are really amphibian planes, in that they can be fitted with pontoons or wheels.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: Before the committee
rises, may I ask whether item No. 180 is left standing? We desire to have one item left open upon which anything might be discussed, and No. 180, departmental administration, would appear to be the proper item.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That
is the understanding. That item is not passed.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: And on that item-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Any
question of defence policy may be discussed.



DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
Marketing services-Agricultural economics,
1120,260.
Mark Cecil Senn: I should like to take this opportunity of endorsing the suggestion made by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) regarding some investigation of duplication in the collection of milk. He suggested to the minister that this branch might very well investigate the costly method of collecting milk which prevails in Saskatchewan. I believe such an investigation should be carried on in Ontario. The collection of farm produce is extremely costly, and must be dealt with before marketing can be successfully carried out. There is always a great deal of extra expense, because there is so much duplication. The same trucks travel up and down the same roads from day to day collecting milk, which adds greatly to the cost and, of course, affects the farmer's price. The department might very well undertake an investigation of this. The minister will perhaps say that there is not sufficient time for this branch to undertake all kinds of investigations. Frankly I do not think the vote is very large for this purpose. I believe research and the tabulation of statistics helps as much as anything that can foe done to assist the farmer to market his products, and a* larger sum might very well be spent when it could be so well utilized in investigations of this kind which should result in some benefit to agriculture.
There is provision for an assistant to the agricultural executive. What is the agricultural executive? This is another question
that may bring out something in regard to the new set-up in the department. We are getting the information piecemeal, and there must be a great deal more information available with regard to this new set-up. If these estimates are to be discussed intelligently, we should have a thorough knowledge of the set-up of the department, what the new set-up means and how it is better adapted to the needs of the department and of agriculture generally.


James Garfield Gardiner: As to whether or not there should be an investigation into the collection of milk, I think that is a subject which might very well be studied. As I said the other evening, usually these economic investigations are carried out in cooperation with the provinces. It will be understood that the gathering of milk is pretty much a local matter, certainly a provincial matter; but this branch is always available to carry out investigations that may be helpful, and as time goes on and money is made available for investigations of this kind, I am sure this branch will he prepared to give consideration to this matter.
The vote has been increased considerably this year, from $72,906.25 to $120,260. We realize that a considerable amount of this work can be done to advantage, and that is why the amount has been increased.
The position referred to, set out I think at page 55 of the estimates, has been established in the department for quite a number of years. It is the position occupied by Mr. Goddard.


Mark Cecil Senn: What are his duties?


James Garfield Gardiner: He is described as being in charge of general office administration, keeping a general check on office work in the economics branch.


Thomas Alfred Thompson: I notice a very considerable increase in this estimate, and I think some of that money could be spent to great advantage in examining the soil of different farms throughout the country. The use of fertilizers is just in its infancy in Ontario, and I believe a great- work could be done by having farmers made acquainted with just what their soils require so that they might fertilize them accordingly.


James Garfield Gardiner: I might point out that this would come under the vote for experimental farms rather than under this vote.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Agriculture-M arlce ting
[Stage Direction]
Fruit and vegetable products, including grants of $5,000 to the Canadian Horticultural council, $555,000.
Grote Stirling: Would the minister give an account of the expenditure of money for the purchase of fruit and vegetables for distribution in the drought areas? A certain quantity of these commodities was purchased by the department. The fruit grower in British Columbia was faced with a particularly difficult marketing situation this year. He had a large crop himself; in the United States there was a far larger crap than for many years past; there was an enormous increase in citrous fruit production, and then there was the slowing up of purchasing power. The Department of Agriculture intervened and purchased I think something like 140,000 boxes of apples at a time when that assistance was greatly appreciated. I also believe some
10,000	barrels of apples were purchased in Nova Scotia for the same purpose. I believe it would be of great interest to the committee if the minister would go into some detail with regard to the purchase of such fruits and vegetables for that purpose and describe where they were bought and in what quantities. I remember that the other day, when this matter was referred to, the minister said he had been able to obtain a better transportation rate from Nova Scotia than from British Columbia. I should like some further information and explanation in that regard,


James Garfield Gardiner: As has been stated, last fall the department had SI,000,000 supplied to it for the purchase of surplus supplies of farm commodities in different parts of Canada outside the drought area for distribution within the drought area. There was purchased a quantity of cheese, beans, fish and vegetables, as well as a quantity of apples. At least two-thirds of the apples were purchased in British Columbia; the others came from Nova Scotia. I was scarcely correct the other night if I gave the impression that the cost per barrel in shipping was less from Nova Scotia than from British Columbia; but if we take distance into consideration, the cost was considerably less in connection with the apples that were shipped from Nova Scotia.
The price at which the apples were obtained in Nova Scotia was considerably less than the price paid in British Columbia, and there was a reason for that. In Nova Scotia last fall they had a very bad wind during the picking season, and there was a very heavy windfall of apples. As those who are familiar with the apple business know, the regulations of the department do not permit
fMr. Gardiner.]
windfalls to be shipped out of Canada, no matter how good may be the condition of the apples. These apples were all gone over very carefully, and it was generally admitted that they were of practically as high quality as the apples that had been picked. They were obtained at a lower price, however, as a result of their being windfalls. That, together with the freight rate on the fruit from Nova Scotia, made it possible to deliver the apples in the drought area of Saskatchewan for less than we were able to deliver No. 1 apples from British Columbia.


Grote Stirling: Do I understand that the transportation companies met the minister in that regard and gave him any sort of special rate?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes; they gave us half rate on the apples from both provinces.


Alexander McKay Edwards: That applied to vegetables also, did it not?


James Garfield Gardiner: That applied to all vegetables shipped in. The basis upon which the railways have operated in connection with all these matters has been that where the products were given free and were delivered free, the railways have given free transportation. That is, where churches have gone out and collected food or clothing and it has been delivered free at the other end, the railways have donated the freight. In places where purchases have been made, they have given us a half rate. On all these commodities this was done. I have a list of the purchases made. It is a long one, and I do not suppose the hon. member wants it.


Grote Stirling: What are the purchases in the various provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have the carloads of shipments of different commodities. There are fifty-three carloads of cheese, thirty-five of dried beans, 101 of fish, 283 of fruit, practically all of which was apples. Of those, 183 carloads were shipped from British Columbia and 100 from Nova Scotia. There are 375 carloads of vegetables shipped chiefly from Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba and Alberta.


Alexander McKay Edwards: Can the minister break down the figures in connection with the vegetable shipment, or is it a long list?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is a long list, but I believe it can be broken down.


Alexander McKay Edwards: Take it by districts, if you wish.

Supply-Agriculture-Marketing


James Garfield Gardiner: From the Quebec market gardeners' association there are seventy carloads of vegetables; from various growers, per J. L. Ferguson, Bradford, Ontario, sixty-nine cars; from the Pelham Vegetable Growers, Fenwick, Ontario, twelve cars; from various growers, per Rev. Father Baillargeon, La Salle, Ontario, five cars; from various growers, per W. Brillinger, Stouffville, Ontario, ten cars.


Grote Stirling: Are those purchases ?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. From the Lambton
growers' cooperative association, Sarnia, Ontario, four cars; from M. J. Smith, Chatham, five cars; from Claude Lockery, Thed-ford, Ontario, three cars; from the St. Claire vegetable association, Sarnia, two cars; from the Ontario vegetable growers' association, Islington, Ontario, twelve cars; from The Aldershot District Cooperative Limited, two cars, making a total of 194 cars.


Alexander McKay Edwards: They are pretty well distributed.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


Grote Stirling: As regards the inspection service, to what extent does the revenue go towards meeting the expenditures? The inspection is compulsory so far as export is concerned, is it not? I believe that is true also with regard to interprovincial transactions. Besides that, there is the shipping point inspection which is asked for and paid for by the shipper. Would the minister break up the information by provinces, and show to what extent the shipper and grower pay for the facilities they receive?


James Garfield Gardiner: The information I have will, with some further explanations, give the required answer. The cost to the fruit branch of the $3 inspection fee is, in British Columbia, S7.31; in Ontario, $10.12; in New Brunswick, S6.40; in Nova Scotia, $10.85, and in Prince Edward Island, S7.25. The average for Canada is $8.78.


Grote Stirling: That covers all the export and interprovincial, which is compulsory?
Mr. GARDINER; Yes.


Grote Stirling: Those cars cannot leave the country without that inspection?


James Garfield Gardiner: That is true.


Grote Stirling: But the minister is not able to separate the shipping point inspections so'as to show what is incorporated in the cost of the cars inspected for which the shipper pays.


James Garfield Gardiner: These are exclusively the shipping point costs, with no costs from the standpoint of destination.


Mr. McGREGOR:: Has the minister the unit prices paid of so much per bag or bushel at different points?


James Garfield Gardiner: Does the hon. member mean the relief vegetables?


Robert Henry McGregor: Yes.


James Garfield Gardiner: I have the prices for the same companies to which I referred a few moments ago.


Robert Henry McGregor: Were the prices the same at all points?


James Garfield Gardiner: They vary somewhat with regard to different items. The prices with respect to the different items are as follows:
Commodity-Price
Item No. 1-Cabbage, $18 per ton.
Beets, $15 per ton.
Carrots, $15 per ton.
Item No. 2-Cabbage, $15 per ton.
Carrots, 50 cents per bag.
Beets, 50 cents per bag.
Parsnips, 65 cents per Dag.
Item No. 3-Beets, 50 cents per bag.
Carrots, 50 cents per bag.
Item No. 4-Carrots, 33 cents per bushel.
Item No. 5-Cabbage, 65 cents per bag.
Carrots, 50 cents per bag.
Item No. 6-Carrots, 50 cents per bag.
Item No. 7

Cabbage, 65 cents per bag.
Item No. 8-Carrots, 50 cents per bag.
Item No. 9-Carrots, 50 cents per bag.
Item No. 10-Cabbage, 65 cents per bag. t Carrots, 50 cents per bag.
Item No. 11-Carrots, 50 cents per bag.
Cabbage, 65 cents per bag.


Robert Henry McGregor: Is that the price paid the farmer or the shipper?


James Garfield Gardiner: There were no shippers involved. They were all purchased from farmers or from organizations representing farmers.


George Halsey Perley: How many officials in the department were employed in gathering these quantities of vegetables?


James Garfield Gardiner: There was no extra staff at this end; it was all done by the regular staff. It was under Mr. Wheeler, who was in charge of the branch, and our regular inspectors made the inspections and carried out the work.


George Halsey Perley: Did they receive offers from wholesalers to ship the fruit, vegetables, fish, beans and so on, before they undertook to gather them in this way?
Supply-Agriculture-M arke ting


James Garfield Gardiner: Quotations were obtained from different vegetable and fruit marketing organizations, but it was thought advisable to purchase as directly as we could from those who had surpluses of these commodities. For example, down in the Holland marsh area, where it was not possible for the people to dispose of the vegetables grown there, we purchased a considerable amount. The main reason for not dealing with wholesalers at both ends was the fact that we were purchasing commodities which, in the ordinary course of events, would not have found their way into these homes. The individuals in the relief areas were supplied with schedules providing for a certain amount per month, which was covered by vouchers to the merchants. These vouchers covered those things which were considered to be absolute necessities. We have had considerable difficulty in the past, particularly in farm homes throughout the drought areas, because the merchants did not carry certain of these things. They had no opportunity to sell them, and the vouchers were not sufficient to permit of that kind of thing being purchased. We had in mind the idea of providing certain commodities that otherwise would not be purchased. In addition, we thought this provided an opportunity of placing these commodities in homes where they were not ordinarily consumed. We selected the best of these commodities. The best British Columbia apples were selected, the best cheese and the best cured fish was obtained. Many of these homes had not been large users of these commodities for many years. It was considered that this was money well spent for advertising. These commodities were being placed before the people of this area, and it was thought that they would be larger purchasers later on as a result of this being done.


George Halsey Perley: Why did the department
or the minister decide that in many places in Saskatchewan the distribution should be general? He just made the statement that these commodities were placed in homes where they were not generally used, but in many cases the distribution was general.


James Garfield Gardiner: There was a general
distribution to those who considered that they needed these supplies. There was no check up to the extent that deliveries were made only to those on relief. The first reason for this was the belief that many people could be kept off relief by having these additional supplies. I believe many

did stay off relief as a result of having vegetables in their cellars and a little fish and cheese in their pantries. The other reason was advertising. These people were given these supplies as an advertisement. It was felt that they would not be shipped in at all if they were not shipped in in this way. The hon. member suggests that these supplies were delivered to everyone. There was a restriction placed against persons who were receiving regular salaries, such as bank managers and station agents. I dare say there were some exceptions, as is bound to happen in deliveries of this kind. However, those who felt themselves in need and who applied were given these supplies without too much check being made upon the situation existing in their homes.


George Halsey Perley: I have not the correspondence with me at the moment as I did not expect we would reach this item, but I have letters from secretaries of municipalities enclosing copies of a letter that went out from Doctor Stapleford stating that there was to be a general distribution and that this suggestion came from the minister. I know of places where distribution was made to bankers, lawyers, butchers, hotel keepers and people of that sort. In some instances the people refused to accept the supplies. I should like to know how the minister arrived at the quantity required, even assuming that distribution was to be general. Just a minute ago the minister said that they had thirty-five carloads of beans. How did they arrive at that quantity? A grocer told me that was more beans than would be consumed in Saskatchewan in three years. I have also been told by a grocery firm that the prices paid for beans was in the neighbourhood of a dollar a sack more than the price for which they could have supplied them. Could the minister tell us what price was paid for beans, where they were gathered and how the quantity was arrived at? There are certain members who come from the districts in Ontario where beans are grown and they could compare the prices.


James Garfield Gardiner: The beans were bought at SI.30 which was the lowest price that could be secured by anyone. The cost of shipping would be lower to the government than to a merchant because we were shipping in carload lots and at half rates. I do not think it would have been possible to supply the beans for a dollar less. The amounts supplied to a family of five were thirty pounds of cheese, thirty-three pounds of beans, one hundred and fifty pounds of apples, forty-four pounds of fish,

Supply-Agriculture-Marketing
one hundred pounds of turnips and one hundred and fifty pounds of other vegetables. The cost was a little over $13 per family, which I do not think can be considered as high.


George Halsey Perley: Where was the fish obtained? Could the minister give us a statement with respect to fish and beans similar to that which he gave with respect to vegetables?


James Garfield Gardiner: The beans all came from various members of the Ontario bean producers' association. The fish purchases were as follows:
Zwicker and Company Limited, Lunenburg, salted cod, 168,000 pounds at 5J cents.
W. C. Smith and Company Limited, Lunenburg, salted cod, 168,000 pounds at 5i cents.
Adams and Kniekle, Lunenburg, salted cod,
168.000	pounds at 5J cents.
Mrs. Jean D. Lohnes, Lunenburg, salted cod,
100.800	pounds at 5J cents.
Robin, Jones and Whitman, Lunenburg, salted cod, 67,200 pounds at 54 cents.
Total, 672,000 pounds of salted cod.
Maritime National Fish Company, Halifax, chicken haddock, 6,000 boxes at $2.30 per 24 carton.
Halifax Fisheries Limited, Halifax, pollock, salted, 95,200 pounds at 3J cents.
W. and C. H. Mitchell, Limited, Halifax,
36.000	pounds pollock at 3J cents.
Barker-Eakins Company, Limited, Yarmouth,
100.800	pounds of pollock at 31 cents.
Robin, Jones and Whitman, Halifax, 91,600 pounds at 3J cents.
Rowlings Limited, Halifax, 44,800 pounds at 3} cents.
A.	M. Smith and Company, Halifax, 302,400 pounds at 3J cents.
' Total, 670,800 pounds of pollock secured in Halifax at 3i cents.
B.	Connors Fish Company, Saint John, chicken haddie, 4,000 boxes at $2.25 per 24 carton.
Connor Brothers, fish dealers, Black's Harbour, herring in tomato sauce, 10,000 boxes at $3.80 per 48 carton.
Grand Manan Smoked Herring Board, St. Andrews, smoked herring, 26,332 boxes at 62 cents a box.


Harry James Barber: Has the minister the figures for Prince Rupert and other points in British Columbia?	.


James Garfield Gardiner: No. We bought apples altogether from British Columbia. I might add that there is a list here of about fourteen individuals from whom we secured smaller amounts of pollock, salted, at three cents.


Victor Quelch: I had an experience similar to that of the hon. member for Qu'Appelle. I found that in certain areas these foods were distributed without regard to whether people needed them. I made a protest, and the answer I received was that the federal regulations did not state whether or not a person had to be in need in order to receive the food.
The reason I protested was that in the marginal areas adjacent to the federal drought area there was a great deal of distress, and apparently the people in that area were not eligible for the distribution of these supplies. I protested, and the answer I received was that the people outside the federal drought area, no matter how much distress there might be, were not eligible for the distribution of this food.


James Garfield Gardiner: There was some difficulty at the beginning, and complaints came in from the area immediately adjacent to what was known as the federal drought area where we were taking care of the people 100 per cent. An attempt was made to take care of that situation by inducing the voluntary committee to make their distributions in the area outside rather than inside the federal area. There was some difficulty experienced in having that done because there were instances where people had expressed the desire to have their carload go to a particular section, and of course where any desire was expressed to have a car that was being sent gratis to western Canada distributed in a certain place, that was done. There were other instances of church organizations having directed cars to certain places, and it was impossible to change their destination. But we tried so to distribute the voluntary relief that was given as to assist those round about the federal area to greater advantage than those who were being assisted inside that area. We depended entirely on the local authorities to make the distribution, and I would say that in 90 per cent of the cases at any rate the distribution was carried out in the very best possible manner. In other cases there may have been some misunderstanding on the part of the local authorities as to just what was to be done with the commodities, and there might have been some distribution made where probably, if we had restricted them by regulation, distribution would not have been made; but I do not think any great harm was done or any great loss sustained as a result, I think it will be found that most people, as was stated by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley), who did not feel they were entitled to the goods did not take them. That was the case over the greater part of the area.


William Hayhurst: Was any part of the fruR and vegetables that were supplied by charitable organizations distributed in the federal area?
Supply-Agriculture-Marketing


James Garfield Gardiner: In Alberta the provincial authorities asked us not to make any distribution of vegetables because they had sufficient vegetables to take care of the situation in the federal area in that province, but there was a certain section that was taken into the federal area in Alberta by special arrangement with the province. We had selected forty-two municipalities that we thought should go into the federal area. They made representations to the effect that there should be fifty-three. We questioned that, and a compromise was arrived at, the amount of the cash grant to the Alberta government to take care of the area outside the federal area being cut in two. When it came to the distribution of the food we suggested, in the first instance, that we would confine the distribution to forty-two municipalities. They proposed that they would make a distribution of vegetables over the whole area provided we covered the complete area with the other commodities, and that was done.


Richard Langton Baker: Does the minister consider that all this great quantity of food was essential out there, and that it was well used, or was a large quantity not required and therefore wasted?


James Garfield Gardiner: I think anyone who has been through that area would agree that there was very little food wasted in that area this year. There were more people going short of food than wasting any food in the drought area last winter.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Was any distribution of potatoes made?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, by the provincial government, and for that reason we did not make any distribution of potatoes.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Where were the potatoes obtained?


James Garfield Gardiner: Pretty much from western Canada, although some were obtained as far east as Fort William, some from the newer part of western Ontario, also from Manitoba, and, I assume, from Alberta and British Columbia.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: There were a great many potatoes sent out there from New Brunswick, and I was wondering if any were purchased from New Brunswick.


James Garfield Gardiner: We did not make these purchases. I would not be absolutely certain, but I do not think they went as far east ns New Brunswick to purchase potatoes. I

think there were sufficient supplies in Manitoba and closer to the area, and therefore there would not be so much freight to pay on them.


George Halsey Perley: I am not complaining at all of the distribution because I think it was a splendid thing and the right thing to do. It not only gave relief to those in Saskatchewan who needed it, but made it possible to help those in eastern Canada who had fruits and vegetables for sale. What I was complaining of particularly was that in the distribution certain people did get fruit and vegetables who did not need them, and the consequence was that those who could have done with a little more did not get it. I have before me a letter which states that the distribution in this particular locality was three-fifths of a box of apples to each person, fifteen pounds of carrots and fourteen pounds of cabbage. It says nothing about potatoes. If that was the only distribution, it would not be a very large quantity of apples for the individual, and the distribution would be less because of people getting these supplies who did not need them. The minister admits, I suppose, having approved that system of distribution, because the letter from Doctor Stapleford says that it is the special request of the minister that everyone should participate and the populations of the municipality and of the urban centres within the municipality are given to make sure that the supplies could be divided accordingly, so that each one would share in them. When the minister is replying he might also give us the parties from whom they collected the beans and also I he fish.


James Garfield Gardiner: I just gave information about the fish and the beans.


George Halsey Perley: I had reference to the
cheese.


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not think it has been sent to us yet, but we have a complete list of all the people who got these supplies. When we sent out the supplies we arranged with every person who obtained the apples, when the apples were shipped first, to sign an application for them, to state the number of persons in each family, and to sign for the amount they obtained. The last report that I had before the office was closed up was that they had returns from every municipality regarding the apples, with one exception, and they expected to have that one in within a few days, before the office was closed. I have not inquired since if that one report was in, but the others are. It was intended that there

Supply-Agriculture-Marketing
should be a full sign-up on all the other commodities in addition to the apples. They got the list of persons to whom they supplied the fish, beans, cheese and other commodities from the first list of apples shipped. The apples had to be shipped before frost. We got a complete list, and knew from that list what to ship into each municipality to supply individuals. The letter which was sent out, and which, as indicated by the faon. member for Qu'Appelle, was of a general nature, went to rural municipalities. But the instructions which went to the urban centres, that is the villages and towns within the area, indicated that not more than seventy-five per cent of the population was to be supplied. It was indicated clearly at that time that those who were to be left out were persons who were on salaries and were getting along about as well as if tihe drought had not existed, because they were being paid practically the same salaries as before. It was ordered that those people were to be left out of the distribution, and I am quite sure that the instruction was carried out over the greater part of the area, because I had quite a number of letters from different places complaining that it had been carried out.
The statement as issued under date of March 10 to the department at Ottawa contains this sentence.
In answer to question twelve, the goods were distributed not only to those on relief but also to practically all farmers, on the basis that many who were not on relief were suffering even more than those who had accepted relief. To the smaller towns and villages supplies were sent on the basis of seventy-five per cent of the population; that is, it was assumed that in the towns and villages twenty-five per cent of the people would not require the supplies.
That is the answer, I think, which the hon. member for Qu'Appelle himself received on the list of questions given.


Grote Stirling: Has the minister any
record of the enormous quantities which were given besides those to which he has referred? Added up together from the various parts of Canada, there must have been an enormous number of carloads of gifts, in the form of food as well as clothing, that went in for distribution through the area.


James Garfield Gardiner: We had complete statements made up. I am speaking from memory when I say that I think the number that was shipped voluntarily this year was about 1,200 cars.


George Halsey Perley: The minister might explain why these cars were all billed to Regina.- Is that the centre from which the carload lots were distributed?


Donald Alexander McNiven: The fish, cheese and
beans?


George Halsey Perley: Well, were not the vegetables shipped there and then transhipped again, rebilled?


James Garfield Gardiner: The apples were shipped directly to the point and unloaded there. Of course, they had to move cars from one point to another; there might be a car and a half required at one particular point, and then a half car would go on to the next point. Vegetables were handled in very much the same way. The fruit and vegetables had to be got out before the frost, and were distributed to the local points. In so far as cheese, beans and fish were concerned, it was seldom that a carload of any one of them was required at any one point. Those were shipped to Regina, unloaded and repacked in cars in the quantities required at each point, then reshipped to that point and distributed there.


George Halsey Perley: The idea I had was that
when there were fifty-three carloads of cheese and 101 carloads of fish, they might have been shipped, or some of them, directly to points like Weyburn and Swift Current and there distributed, instead of being unloaded at Regina and reshipped or parcelled. Some of the cheese, I understand, was cut into smaller parcels at Regina. I thought they might have had some system of billing in transit like they have for flour, and so on. Possibly that would have saved freight because local freight would be charged from Regina to other points. A great deal of it could have been shipped to and handled at the larger centres like Weyburn and Swift Current.


James Garfield Gardiner: This was all inquired
into at the time. The man we had in charge was a gentleman who had previously been in charge of Simpson's mail order business. We secured the assistance, by loan from the Canadian National Railways, of a freight man, and from the Canadian Pacific Railway, of another freight man.


William Earl Rowe: And special freight rates.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. These officials
took charge of the whole administration and distribution. I think it is generally admitted that a very good job was made of the distribution itself.
Export Rate on Flour


George Halsey Perley: How many warehouses, apart from the railway companies' warehouses, were used in Regina for distributing this stuff?


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand only one warehouse was used in Regina. I would not be absolutely certain of that, but I think there was only the one.


Frederick George Sanderson: Carried?


George Halsey Perley: No; it is not carried, Mr. Chairman.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Tuesday, May 17, 1938