[Stage Direction]
1932-33, 23-24 george v
Mr. ERNEST BERTRAND (Laurier) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 26 to repeal the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act, 1933.
Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec):: Explain.


Mr. BERTRAND (Laurier):: This is a
very short bill. It asks for the repeal of the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act, which was passed in 1933, was of a temporary nature, and was never completed. Rules were to have been passed by order in council, but this was not done; no machinery is provided for the operation of the act. It has lent itself to a lot of fraud. A petition is made against a company; the company files a petition to fall under the act, and immediately proceedings in bankruptcy are stopped. No liquidator is appointed, no trustee, no inspector. No examination of the books is made; officers of the company cannot be examined under oath, and nobody knows what is what about the company. Public bodies such as the Montreal board of trade have passed resolutions asking for the repeal of this act, and there is a great deal of protest against it. It will be my intention to ask that the bill be referred to the committee on banking and commerce in order that men from Montreal and other cities may be called who want to come and speak in favour of the repeal of the act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



CITY OF OTTAWA AGREEMENT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. P. J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Public Works) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to authorize the Minister of Public Works cm behalf of His Majesty to enter into an agreement to pay to the corporation of the city of Ottawa the sum of $100,000 for the year ending July 1, 1938.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.
6S1

Civil Service-Special Committee


Right Hon.  W. L. MACKENZIE ICING@Prime Minister: That a select special committee of the house be appointed to inquire into the operation of the Civil Service Act, and all matters pertaining thereto, with power to call for persons, papers and records, to examine witnesses under oath, and to report from time to time;
And that standing order 65 be suspended in relation thereto, and that the select special committee shall consist of twenty-five members and the following be appointed members of the said committee;
Messrs. Beaubien, Betts, Boulanger, Brooks, Clark (York-Sunbury), Cleaver, Deaehman, Donnelly, Elliott (Kindersley), Fournier (Hull), Glen, Golding, Green, Jean, Lacroix (Quebec-Montmoreney), Lawson, Maclnnis, MacNeil, McNiven (Regina City), Mulock, O'Neill, Poole, Pouliot, Stewart, Tomlinson.
He said: Mr. Speaker, hon. members will recall that at the first session of the present parliament I indicated that the government had the intention of appointing a special select committee to take into consideration the operation of the Civil Service Act. Owing to -the many committees appointed at the first session and the number of matters that came before the house for consideration by a new administration and a new parliament, it was not thought advisable or possible to appoint a committee at that session. Last session, as hon. members will recall, owing ,to the coronation and the imperial conference there was a desire to expedite the business of the house, and it was thought advisable not to appoint a committee at that time. The government is therefore .taking an early opportunity in this session of implementing the promise which was made, that a committee would be appointed in the course of the present parliament.
I believe it is a fact that there have been similar reviews of the operation of the Civil Service Act during most of the parliaments of recent years. One reason for periodic reviews is that the needs and conditions of the public service are continually changing; also, the personnel of the house is continually changing. It is important the service should conform to changing needs. It is moreover an advantage to new members as well as old members to have this opportunity of fully appreciating many of the questions which arise in the conduct of the public service, both from the point of view of the civil servants themselves and from the point of view of those who have to do with their appointment. It is in the public interest also that there should be periodical inquiries into such matters as the efficiency of the public administration, as well as the cost of that administration.
The fact that the government is proposing the appointment of this committee at this time does not mean that the government does not hold strong convictions with respect to the public service and the principles which should govern its status and conduct. It does mean, however, that the government believes it will be helpful alike to the government itself and to the service to have the various duties and obligations of the service carefully reviewed by hon. members of this house, so that their experience may be brought to bear upon the act as it now is, with a view to such revisions or modifications as may seem most advisable. I might add the appointment of this committee should expedite the sessional program through the opportunity it will afford of consideration by the committee of proposals with respect to the civil service already before the house, or ready to be brought up by reference to committee.
I might say that the government intends to recommend the appointment of another committee to deal with the Civil Service Superannuation Act. The superannuation act is more concerned with questions which are immediately financial and which are in part technical. It has therefore been thought advisable to have that act dealt with by a smaller committee. It will be general questions and proposals with respect to the public service that will come up for consideration by the committee now proposed.
As to the personnel of the committee, hon. members will realize that the names as set forth are in alphabetical order. There is no significance as to which name comes first or which comes last. The committee will manage its own affairs, in the selection of a chairman as in other matters, but I would say at once that an effort has been made, through the cooperation of the whips, to have the committee as representative as possible not only of the different parties in the house but of considerations of which a committee of the kind would wish to take account. I need not mention what they are. Inevitably there may be a feeling that some persons ought to be on the committee who are not. All have not been accommodated to the extent that the government would wish to accommodate them. However, this committee will be no different from others in the matter of permitting of changes in personnel in the course of its proceedings if that be thought advisable. I just wished at present to inform hon. members that the names here set forth are those that have been given to the government after consultations between the whips of the different parties. I do not think there is anything further I need say at this stage.

Civil Service-Special Committee


Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure every member of this chamber, as well as the country generally, will be pleased with the next to the last observation made by the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), that from the setting up of this committee there was nothing to be taken that might imply that the government had any doubt as to the necessity of maintaining the merit system and a civil service commission in this dominion at this time. There is no doubt that there has been much discussion, sometimes public and sometimes not, with respect to the civil service commission and its operations; and it is highly desirable, I personally believe, that at least once in the life of every parliament there should be a review of the operations of the act.
The Prime Minister referred to the fact that the proposed committee was not to deal with the financial side of the matter. I observe that that is so, and the only question I had in mind was whether or not under the terms of the reference, namely "to inquire into the operation of the Civil Service Act," the committee would be competent to inquire into whether or not the departments were under- or over-staffed, or whether public moneys were overexpended in any particular place. As it reads now I doubt whether it would be broad enough for that purpose. The "operation of the act" merely means its administration, how it operates in practice, not the sufficiency or insufficiency of the numbers of employees engaged in the public service. That is a matter which is not settled by the act itself but is determined by the ministers, by what they conceive to be the necessities of the public service and by the appropriation that is made by parliament to defray the cost of such public service. It would therefore seem to me, if it is thought desirable by the government so to do, that the terms of the reference should be modified or expanded; for I submit the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) would say that to inquire into the operation of the Civil Service Act, when the civil service commission itself has nothing to do with the determining of the numbers of people who are to be employed, would be hardly adequate to meet the situation as a whole. I merely mention this because I thought possibly the government was of the opinion that it was not desirable for this committee to consider such questions as the adequacy or inadequacy of the numbers employed in the departments; that that was a matter which more largely concerned perhaps some other branch of the

public service and which was to be considered from some other angle.
I can only say it is highly desirable that every section of the country and every party in the house should be represented, as it is here, on the committee, and that an endeavour should be made so far as it may be possible to conduct the inquiry into the operations of the act with only one object in mind, namely, the public good and the extent to which, either by amendment or by new legislation, we may be able to improve the efficiency of the civil service. I thought, and I still think, that the language is not broad enough to go beyond the question of mere administration, and that possibly the Prime Minister and his government were of the opinion that it would be desirable to deal with that from another angle altogether, having regard to the report on professional employees made some years ago, and other matters of the kind that should be dealt with in another way, even as superannuation, which is largely a financial matter, should be considered from another angle than that of the operation of the act itself.


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: Mr. Speaker, may I say to my right hon. friend that there was no intention on the part of the government in any way to restrict the scope of the committee's activities in this matter. As a matter of fact, in speaking I think I made direct reference to the cost of services, which of course would include the numbers employed, and the amounts paid to -them. If during the course of its inquiry the committee should feel that there is undue restriction in its scope, it would have power to ask the house to enlarge its authority. I assure the house at once that that concession would be made.
The intention is to -have the scope of the committee's inquiry made as broad as possible, and not to limit it in any particular. The purpose of having the Superannuation Act made the subject of a separate committee was simply to ensure that one particular phase of civil service interest would receive a more detailed and careful examination by a committee appointed with reference thereto than would be possible under the general inquiry.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. W. NEILL (Comox-Albemi):: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day are

Fish Trap Licences
called I should like to ask, under standing order 68, that the petition I presented yesterday be read.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Mr. Neill moves, seconded by Mr. Donnelly, that the petition presented yesterday and laid on the table of the house be read. Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
(The Clerk Assistant read the petition as follows):
To the honourable the House of Commons in parliament assembled:
The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of British Columbia, humbly showeth:
That since time immemorial large runs of sockeye salmon have passed the southwest coast of Vancouver island thence passing into American waters in Puget sound and then back to Canadian waters to spawn in the Fraser river.
That for many years we have maintained in the neighbourhood of Sooke on the southwest coast of Vancouver island four or five fish traps and the Americans maintained in their waters in Puget sound several hundreds, with result that our percentage of the joint catch of that run would run about thirty per cent while theirs would be seventy per cent.
That, three years ago the Americans took out all their traps in Puget sound numbering 219 while we retained ours, with the result that our proportion of the joint catch jumped from thirty per cent to fifty per cent and even eighty per cent.
That, the fact that we have not taken out our traps has been used and will be used as a very strong argument by the American trap owners for permission to re-introduce traps on the American side.
That, it is very much to our interests that the American traps should not be re-introduced.
That, there is no truth in the allegation that traps are the only means by which salmon can be taken in our waters in that neighbourhood, as it has been demonstrated that it can be fished by seines, gillnets, and trollers, to which the Americans would have no objection as they use the same gear themselves.
That, the above refers to the sockeye run of salmon but traps are as undesirable as regards the spring and cohoe runs. These fish are heavy in spawn making their way to their spawning ground, swimming in shoals, following the coast line, keeping in shallow water and close in shore so that they fall an easy prey to the traps and comparatively few get by.
That, traps are the most destructive form of fishing known, as they are open day and night and catch every species of fish, large or small, that comes along whether they happen to be out of season or not. Nothing escapes them or gets through.
That, the abolition of traps would lead to the revival of fishing and employment of many local fishermen as was formerly the case, but who, finding their livelihood gone, have had to find other work, often on relief.
That, it would encourage the tourist fishermen who spend their money freely provided that they get good fishing and who to-day are too often disappointed at the present poorness of the fishing in those waters. It would make a great difference to the tourist traffic in the vicinity of Victoria.
That, the abolition of the traps would protect the run of fish, would increase employment instead of, as is the case, exploiting one of British Columbia's greatest assets for the sole benefit of a few.
That, the Associated Boards of Trade of Vancouver island at their annual meeting in June last passed a resolution asking for the abolition of fish traps.
Wherefore, your petitioners humbly pray that your honourable house may be pleased to order that no more fish traps licences shall be granted in British Columbia.
And, as in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray.
(Signed by Geo. Harris and 9,594 others.) SUPPLY

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of supply.
Mr. C. G. MacNEIL (Vancouver North):: Mr. Speaker, before Your Honour leaves the chair, and as the estimates of the Department of National Defence may be introduced, I desire to direct the attention of the government to certain considerations which arise in respect of any discussion of these estimates at this time.
There is grave concern throughout Canada as to the developing international trends, and the possible implications arising therefrom and which attend upon Canada's position in the League of Nations and the British commonwealth. For this reason, without any desire to add to the difficulties of the situation and with every desire to cooperate in the promotion of peaceful external relations for Canada, it is urged that the government should provide an opportunity for the discussion of the general policy proposed with relation to the defence of Canada.
Preparations for defence are necessarily the outcome of foreign policy. It is therefore desirable that the government should give whatever assurance may be possible, indicating that existing commitments and plans do not contemplate participation in external war. It is hoped that the minister will make a statement, before proceeding to the principal items of his estimates, as to the relationship of the defence program to needs which are solely Canadian. Such a statement might serve to obviate unnecessary inquiries or criti-
6S4
Supply-National Defence

cisms from those who do not oppose reasonable measures of defence, but who are uneasy as to the purpose and degree of defence.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, may I say to the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. MacNeil) that while an item in the estimates of the Department of National Defence will be called to-day, so as to enable the minister of that department to take up its estimates on Thursdays and Fridays, it is not the intention of the government at this time to proceed with the estimates of the Department of National Defence. When the minister does take up the estimates I understand it is his intention to make a full statement on the defence policy, and also to permit the fullest discussion. Meantime may I say to the hon. member and to the house that the defence policy of the government remains to-day exactly as stated by the minister, and also by myself at the last session of parliament.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the house went into committee of supply, Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Surveys and engineering branch-branch administration, $24,890.
Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Mines and Resources):: There are five branches of the Department of Mines and Resources and it might be of value to the committee if I took a moment or two to deal with the particular functions performed by this branch. It will be noted there is an item covering the dominion observatory at Ottawa, as well as one covering the dominion astrophysical observatory at Victoria, British Columbia. These observatories have to do with astronomy and the exchange of information with other countries in respect of that science.
There is also the dominion water and power bureau, which has the administration of the Dominion Water Power Act and the Irrigation Act. About ten years ago there was a body set up known as the Lake of the Woods control board, which is included in this branch. Then there is the engineering and construction service which has to do mainly with the work carried on in the national parks of Canada, which are under the administration of this department. It has to do with the building of roads, the preparing of plans for buildings in the parks, and other work of this kind required in the Indian Affairs branch and in one or two other branches of the department. The work of the international boundary commission is under the direction of this branch.

The next item covers the hydrographic and map service. Prior to the formation of the Department of Mines and Resources and the Department of Transport, this branch was a part of the old department of marine. The hydrographic service covers the work carried out in the coastal waters of Canada to determine depths of water, proper charting and proper mapping according to information discovered by day to day testing and exploration. Also included in this service are legal surveys and map service. Provision is made for the printing of the publication of the Canadian Institute of Surveying. A small amount is provided for the payment of fees to examiners of dominion land surveyors. Briefly, this covers the general work of this branch of the department. The first item called. No. 149, has to do with what might be termed the head office expense of the administration of the branch.


Mr. STIRLING:: The minister has explained the extent to which the various survey operations of the government have been drawn together; he has referred to the geodetic service, the international boundary work, the legal surveys and map service, and the hydrographic service. But there is still another branch of the department which has to do with geological and topographical surveys. Would the minister explain to what extent there is liaison between these branches and what arrangements have been made for the utilization of these surveys for military purposes? Is there a committee at work to draw' together all the surveying work of the department?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The geological service stands more or less by itself. For instance, there is no intimate relationship between that service and the hydrographic service. Geological surveys consist mainly of the examination of rock formations in order to determine the likelihood of minerals being found. That work is under the mines and geology branch in the department, but legal and hydrographic surveys and the preparation of plans for the building of Indian schools or houses for Indian agents and everything of that kind come under the supervision of this particular branch.


Grote Stirling: The minister has stated that of necessity the geological survey must be separate from the survey services for other purposes. Surely the geological information could be published on, say, a topographical map and thus avoid a duplication of services.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This branch has to do with the printing of maps prepared by the mines and geology branch, and also compiles various maps from existing base maps. Of course, we endeavour to avoid entirely



193S

[Stage Direction]
Supply-Mines and Resources
anything in the nature of duplication in the branch. Considerable progress has been made in the reorganization of this work but I do not say for one moment that this reorganization is completed. To get a large department like this functioning efficiently is not a matter of a week or a month or even a year. It is a case of steadily consolidating the work and weeding out any possibility of duplication. We are aiming to reach the greatest degree of perfection and economy that it is possible to reach. I do not know that there is anything further I can add in that regard.
Grote Stirling: Is the coordinating
committee still in operation? It was set up for the purpose of seeing that there should be no overlapping.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is an interdepartmental committee that has to do with aerial survey's, for instance. Several departments, including ours, are represented on that committee. It aims to prevent duplication between departments.


Mr. GREEN:: Apparently this is the branch of the department having to do with road construction. Will the minister give us a statement as to the progress that has been made with the trans-Canada highway so that we may have some idea when the different gaps will be finished and what gaps there are at the present time?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The only- part of the
trans-Canada highway that this department has anything to do with, in addition to that section in the National parks, is the section being built in British Columbia to which reference was made a year ago, the section between Golden and Revelstoke. The other part of the trans-Canada highway, of course, has no relation whatever to this department. Perhaps the Department of Transport or the Department of Labour could give information in that regard, but so far as this particular section is concerned, between the points I have mentioned, the distance to be completed is about thirty-three and a half miles.


Howard Charles Green: When will that be finished- this year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is very doubtful whether it will be completed this year; it will depend on the amount of money that may be voted for the work in the supplementary estimates- hon. members will recall that in the past the appropriations for this work have been voted in special supplementary estimates. I am informed that the construction remaining is very heavy and it is doubtful whether it will be completed this year. However, it certainly should be completed in the following year.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister give an estimate of what it will cost to complete that gap?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The amount estimated to complete the thirty-three and a half miles is $875,000.


Howard Charles Green: Will this complete the trans-Canada highway from Vancouver to Fort William?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think it will be possible to drive an automobile from Vancouver to Fort William over the trans-Canada highway when this section is completed. My recollection is that the section between Winnipeg and Fort William is passable. I believe you can get from Winnipeg to Calgary and from Revelstoke to Vancouver; I know that you can get from Golden to Calgary. It is a rather winding road in some places, but it is quite good.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister tell us how long the gap is in northern Ontario?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot give that information. The question does not come within the purview of my department, and I have learned by experience to avoid very carefully any intrusion in respect of the affairs of other departments.


Howard Charles Green: I hope it comes within the purview of some department.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am quite certain the resources of this government are not so far exhausted that it cannot give my hon. friend the information, but I am sorry I cannot give it to him to-day.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion observatory, Ottawa, $116,700.
Mr. CHURCH:: On page 118 we find the details with reference to thirty-seven officials. What is being done by these thirty-seven officials in connection with the earthquake situation, of which a survey was promised last session? There was an earthquake in Hamilton the other day. Under this item I asked a similar question last year, and I think the minister might give us a short survey to indicate what is being done.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The observatory has apparatus for registering earth tremors. I believe they are so sensitive that they will detect tremors almost anywhere in the world, at any rate thousands of miles away. There have been a few earth tremors or slight earthquakes in eastern Canada in the past year, but I really do not know what the observatory can do about them. The officials can register
Supply-Mines and Resources

them, through the apparatus, and can give information as to their violence, but I am afraid that is about the limit of their power in the matter.


Mr. HEAPS:: I notice in the estimates of this department that there are small items for temporary assistance. Can the minister tell us why there are items for temporary assistance in his estimates when I do not see any in any other part of the estimates?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is for temporary employees in the observatory who have not been made permanent.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Will the minister be good enough to tell us exactly what the observatory does and has done? I have formed a definite opinion about it myself, but I should be glad to have the minister tell us what the observatory and its employees are doing.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The work of the observatory is wholly a contribution to science.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What is the contribution of this observatory?
Mr.CRERAR: I might read from a memorandum I have here. My right hon. friend smiles; well, I can smile back at him.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I would feel all the better for that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: So far as the practical work of the observatory is concerned, I do not profess to be a judge, but I quote from this memorandum:
From a practical point of view one of the most important lines of work of the observatory is the measurement of star-positions and the determination of time. The principal instrument used for this purpose is a telescope of moderate power mounted in the meridian, called a " meridian circle," with which observations are made on the stars every clear night. Other instruments are various clocks and chronographs. An electrical time service is supplied to the parliament buildings and generally to government offices at Ottawa, over 600 electrical dials, all controlled from the observatory, being installed for this purpose. There is also a radio time service for time-comparison with other American and European observatories.
It goes on to speak about the examination of the sun. I read only a short time ago some observations by a very noted astronomer in which he expounded the theory that sunspots and their duration had a definite effect on meteorological conditions, rainfalls, and so on. The observatory at Ottawa makes all these examinations, and exchanges the information with other observatories throughout the world, and thus a body of scientific information is gathered and analysed which leads to conclusions which in future will probably have a practical value, as they have had in the

past. The keeping of an accurate record of the time is also probably of some importance.
I confess that my right hon. friend has me backed up against the wall so far as a detailed knowledge of the work of this observatory is concerned. But the observatory has been in existence for a long time; it is making its contribution to science by the exchange of information it gathers with similar institutions elsewhere in the world, and on the whole, I think it is desirable that it should be continued.


Mr. ROWE (Dufferin-Simcoe):: What is
the number in the employment of that branch?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: On the staff? There are thirty-seven in Ottawa.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is any report published of their work, for the last hundred years or so?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: An annual report is published, as well as, from time to time, bulletins dealing with special investigations they have made.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Has the report been laid on the table this year? I have not seen it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that general survey of the work done is included in the annual report of the department. But there are other special reports which are available; they can be secured and laid on the table. If, for instance, we have violent earth tremors or matters of the kind, special bulletins may be published.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Like the minister I do not know a great deal abbut this work, but I have been wondering whether it should not be conducted in collaboration with one of our universities instead of being directly under government control. I know of observatories in other parts of the world which are part and parcel of the university. Is there any direct connection between the Ottawa and Victoria observatories and the universities in different parts of the country?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Most of the nations have services of this kind. Great Britain has; also, I am informed, Australia and other dominions. It is quite true that some universities also carry on observation work of this kind, but as a rule they are heavily endowed and so have the financial means to acquire all the equipment, some of it very expensive, that is necessary for their observations. But I doubt if there is any university in Canada that could carry on the work which is being done here and in the astrophysical observatory at Victoria, on their own resources, and I question

Supply-Mines and Resources
whether parliament would want to vote special sums to any university to do the work which is being carried on by the department.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I was not suggesting for one moment that we do away with the work which is now, being done by our observatories. But I was wondering, in view of what is happening in other countries where universities have their own laboratories for this class of work, whether we could not get better results for the amount of money we are spending if this work were coordinated with that of some of the large universities. I hardly expect the minister to be able to give an immediate answer to a question of this kind, but if there could be some coordination between our universities and the work done by our observatories we might get better results than we do by having the work isolated in the city of Ottawa.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand that none of the Canadian universities carry on work of this kind. McGill university, Montreal, however, carries on work relative to determination of time.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The university of Toronto, in a rather large way, with the Dunlop telescope.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, but the universities are not equipped for it. For the moment they have not the trained staff which is necessary, and for that reason, at the present time at any rate, I do not regard the suggestion of the hon. member for Winnipeg North as really practicable.


Mr. TAYLOR (Nanaimo):: I hope the time will never come when the cultural advancement of this country will depend entirely on the universities. From my point of view the government should lead in all these matters, and I cannot understand why we should not accept rightly expended moneys as the proper attitude of this country to its culture.


Mr. BROOKS:: I notice that there are
twenty astronomers and one assistant. Are all these astronomers employed in Ottawa or are some of them sent to other parts of the dominion? It seems a pretty heavy staff to be working in and around Ottawa alone.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend will notice that there is a reduction this year from the number employed a year ago. Occasionally some of these scientists leave Ottawa to make observations elsewhere, but the headquarters are here and the staff is attached to the observatory here.


Mr. WALSH:: These astronomers, I
assume, are well trained. With all due deference to the remarks that have been made, for the most part they are university or college trained men. Looking at the salaries attached to the various items, I should say that if these are well trained scientists they are getting exceptionally low salaries. It is almost a crime for a government to establish a precedent of this kind, in view of the training which apparently is required before a person can call himself an astronomer. Would it be possible to decrease the number of so-called astronomers and increase the calibre or the quality of those who are employed? Certainly the salary is not commensurate with the type of work which one assumes to be required of a person who can call himself an astronomer. I do not like to see a budget increase, but I certainly would suggest the possibility of doing something to make the remuneration of these officials more in keeping with the training they are supposed to have. By reference to other branches of the service it will be seen that they are getting no more pay than persons doing clerical work which does not call for exceptional qualifications. Would the minister give some intimation as to the necessary qualifications of an astronomer in the case of a vacancy? I should like to see some connection between the qualifications and the salary offered. If it is not sufficiently large something should be done to improve the remuneration of these particularly qualified men.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: These positions come
under the civil service commission. The commission classifies them and in its wisdom fixes the salary range. If a position is to be filled the civil service commission sets the standard of examination to be passed before an appointment is made. Usually appointees are taken from students in universities who have specialized in mathematics; astronomy I believe is in large measure dependent on mathematical science.
As to the observation of the hon. member that the salaries paid are not in keeping with what scientists of this calibre should receive, I am not qualified to pass an opinion. It is greatly to the credit of scientists that the men who engage in the different branches of science are usually more interested in the work than in the remuneration. That of course is not an adequate reason for underpaying them, but I can only repeat that these positions are classified by the civil service commission and the remuneration fixed by their classification.
6SS
Supply-Mines and Resources

Lest there might be some impression that the men on the staff of this observatory are not quite up to the standard we should have, I may say that such is not the case. I am happy to say that I believe the standard of knowledge and ability of the men on this staff compares very favourably with that of any similar staff in the world.


William Allen Walsh: I am inclined to agree with the minister in that respect, and I can also join in the applause of my friend to the left when he suggests that these men are doing a good piece of work and making a sacrifice in the positions they hold. It is a very similar attitude to that adopted towards the teaching profession, of which I happen to be a member. But I think that point of view is fast getting into disrepute, where people are working for the love of the work and not altogether for the remuneration involved. It is time we changed that attitude, and a good place to effect the change is in government service. It will be noticed that you have clerks in practically the same category as far as salary is concerned as an astronomer. Surely a person with the qualifications necessary for the work of an ordinary clerk should not receive almost the same salary as a highly trained specialist in the field of astronomy. There is not enough differentiation, not enough emphasis placed on the qualifications required.
I know the minister probably has very little to do with the remuneration for these various positions, but someone should do something about establishing a new scale of remuneration for government officials so that there will be a greater differentiation between highly trained experts and those who do not require the same degree of training and the same qualifications. I am hoping that in another year we may see an increase, not in the total but in the remuneration of those retained in the service. Such a scale of remuneration as now prevails does not give rise to continuity of service but rather to disruption of service. No trained scientist is going to stay with the government at that salary; he will look for a position elsewhere and take it at the earliest opportunity. The result will be constant change in the branch, which is not good for the service. More encouragement should be given to highly trained experts to take government positions and remain with them so that we may get the benefit of their training and experience. I am hoping that by another year we may see some improvement, particularly now that we have a committee appointed to inquire into the civil service. I am firmly convinced that the labourer is worthy of his hire, and I feel that not only 
these highly trained government servants but others as well are not receiving pay commensurate with the work we expect them to do. I am hoping that this government will take steps to see that there is some amendment in that respect, so that public servants who are required to do such important work will receive adequate remuneration and there will be some inducement for them to stay in the service.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Has the minister in his department officials who are drawing two or three or more salaries? I noticed, going through the public accounts, that there are officials who draw salaries from one department and perhaps in one, two, three or four other cases draw another salary for other matters.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If there are such I have not been able to find them. I do not think there are in effect. If such are found I can assure the hon. member they will not last very long. There are no such cases in this department.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister does know there are cases in other departments?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is correct.


Mr. LENNARD:: What are the educational requirements for this magnetic observer?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The qualifications? I have no more idea than my hon. friend has.


Frank Exton Lennard: Do they have to have university education?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that the
magnetic observer does not require to have university standing. His business is to read the instruments and charge them with the rolls of paper on which the graphic record is made. I should think perhaps he would be a sort of general handy man in connection with the observatory work.


Mr. STEWART:: Does the work of this observatory require a staff on duty twenty-four hours a day? Is there any part of the day when there is not some of the staff engaged? Is everything suspended for part of the day?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They have regular hours, much in line with the hours established in the service, but some members of the staff are required to do their work at night. For instance, observations of the stars have to be carried on at night, and observations of the sun in the daytime.


Mr. MASSEY:: What correlation is there, if any, between the observatory and that

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branch of the government service referred to in item 391, meteorological service, under the Department of Transport?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is no direct relationship. The meteorological service has agents in various parts of Canada to measure the velocity of wind, the rainfall, the temperature, and such meteorological phenomena as I have just mentioned, but that is rather apart from the kind of work that is done in the observatory.


Denton Massey: Then, Mr. Chairman, there will be no additional burden placed upon the observatory by the institution of the trans-Canada airways, for example, which will require very much more extended meteorological service than we have had in the past?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. I am very happy to say, particularly since my colleague the Minister of Finance has just arrived, that there will be no additional burden placed on the observatory as the result of the inauguration of the trans-Canada airway.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the minister if he will do this: Will he just investigate that department? That is all. I do not want to say anything more; I just want to ask him if he will do that. This department cannot possibly function with the material it has to work with and be of any particular national use. You must have a telescope of power. We have not had a new telescope for I forget how long. We have a telescope which, if my memory serves me aright, is of very medium power, and in these days when large and powerful telescopes have taken the place of the instruments that formerly were in use it follows that the bulletins from a college such as Harvard or from the Victoria observatory, where we have a new telescope, or from the observatory at Mount Wilson, where they have a new telescope, so dwarf our telescope into insignificance, almost, as merely to mean-to make a comparison- that we are keeping up a carriage in the days of the automobile.
If the minister will just investigate that I will be content. I know what he will discover. It is perfectly useless to undertake to keep up an institution unless it is supplied with the necessary material to enable it to function usefully. I think the minister knows how true that is. One of the members was speaking about men working for salaries that are low. Men get into this position; they are in the civil service; it is a case of security. They know that at a given time they will get their superannuation, and if the country does no,t supply them with material with which to do 31952-44
the work of astronomers, they do the best they can for a little while and then sink into that quiet calm which you sometimes find so prevalent in the public service, the undisturbed calm of waiting for the day; not the final day-


An hon. MEMBER:: The senate.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Very few of them see the senate, unless they are organizers of the Liberal party, and sometimes that involves a reduction in pay. At any rate, be that as it may, I want to point out to the minister that we should either maintain a service that is worth while or we should cease playing with it, making ourselves more or less ridiculous. Astronomy is one of the oldest of sciences. Astron-omera made tremendous contributions, not only to science but to practical things, arising out of the application of the principles which they have established by experiment and otherwise. It would take a long time indeed to tell about what the astronomer has contributed to the world, going back to days long before the clan Mackenzie were located in the highlands of Scotland. The result of what we are doing is purely negative. On the question of time they do make a contribution undoubtedly, but I am glad to see that the minister has lopped off four employees this year, because it is perfectly obvious that with the material at their hands we have entirely too great a staff. Either give them something to work with or do not keep them out there doing nothing, waiting for that day that comes to all.
I am not going to discuss the matter in detail, for reasons that are obvious, but I do ask the minister himself to investigate it. There is just as much need for putting in a charge here for temporary help as there is for putting a fifth wheel on a coach. You do not need any temporary help there. It is a convenience, a very great convenience too. I mean it is convenient to many people; almost as convenient, for instance, as that S3.000 for the assistant franchise officer, a post which was not filled for so long until after the last election.
The basis of all success in astronomical work is equipment. I do not care what genius you may have in the science of astronomy; unless you have the equipment you can do nothing. That is why the Dunlop telescope was of such very great value to the university of Toronto. That magnificent equipment now enables them to play a part in the scientific world; but did anyone ever point to any part we played in the scientific world with the equipment we have here? I believe they did detect a .tremor about the time of the Shaw report, but as far as any other tremors were concerned I understand there have been no evidences of them.

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Mr. DUNNING:: That one was a long way
off.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Oh, yes; the distance increased by geometrical progression as the days passed, and the old maxim, "Hang together or hang separately," which was referred to yesterday, became of great value, but that had nothing to do with astronomy except that it had to do with those dimensions which are immeasurable and about which Einstein speaks so learnedly. I dare say the fifth dimension was determined about that time. Probably the symbol for it would be JG raised to the nth power, but that is a matter for further discussion on other occasions.
Will the minister just look into this himself? That is all I ask.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Well, Mr. Chairman, I may say that I had it in mind to get a little better acquainted with the work of this observatory during the coming year.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Star gazing.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. When I want to acquire proficiency in the art of star gazing I shall take my right hon. friend along with me.


Richard Bedford Bennett: He will be pleased to accompany you.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have no doubt that between us we could make an admirable job of it. It is quite true that the telescope at the observatory here is old, and not a modern one. However, that is only part of the work of the observatory. They have to do with the matter of looking after time; they have to do with the recording of earth tremors, and I understand that their seismographic instruments, if that is the correct term, are fairly modem and complete.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There are twenty-three astronomers out there, I think.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do think that is making some contribution. However, I shall bear my right hon. friend's suggestion in mind, and do the best I can.


Denton Massey: The minister has stated that the most important function of the observatory is the recording of time. I notice that last year there was one time observer who was paid $400, and that this year we have not any.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, but he was only an observer.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: He is not connected only with the determination of time. I understand that was a special amount given fol other observations. However, I must confess that I do feel like a fish out of water.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Some of them survive, you know.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I hope this one will, too. I feel that way when I am asked to discuss the scientific bases upon which time is determined, and all that sort of thing. It is a little bit beyond me. However, the accurate determination of time is a function of the observatory, and it is from its activity that we know that our time is accurate. For instance, it would be most unfortunate, Mr Chairman, if in the course of a day the clock on the wall should run ten minutes slow, and we were to work ten minutes too long. That sort of thing has to be avoided.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think you can trust the observatory staff on that point.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The accurate determination of time is part of the work of the observatory. However, I shall endeavour to act upon my right hon. friend's suggestion.


Denton Massey: I notice that in vote 392, under the Department of Transport, there is a grant of $500 to the Kingston observatory. A short time ago we were discussing the functions of the observatory as divorced from the meteorological service of the dominion, yet the grant to the Kingston observatory is bracketed with that of the meteorological service of the Department of Transport. Why is the grant made to Kingston observatory and not to others, and why is it under the Department of Transport?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I did not know the grant appeared under the Department of Transport. I would assume it has something to do with meteorology.


Denton Massey: Perhaps the Minister of Labour could answer it.


Mr. ROGERS:: I am afraid I missed the question.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I shall have to leave it to either the Minister of Labour or the Minister of Transport.


Richard Bedford Bennett: As a member of the governing body of Queen's, the Minister of Labour might explain.


Mr. LOCKHART:: Do I gather that there is nothing in the estimate for new equipment? I have in mind a student who graduated from McGill, and another who graduated from another university, who would bear out the statements made by the hon. members for Mount Royal and Greenwood and the leader of the opposition. These young men have gone to the United States to follow up their work. They make the very pertinent

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comment that most of the equipment at Ottawa is obsolete, and they have gone to the United States to complete their further studies. They say that the salaries paid experienced and trained men are not commensurate with the task they must perform. They do not expect to come back to this country, but intend to remain in the United States. I wonder if the equipment is as obsolete as stated by these young men.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is a small item of
S3,000	for new equipment.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But that does not cover anything substantial.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, it does not cover anything as substantial as is indicated by the hon. member for Lincoln. There is no doubt that the observations of the leader of the opposition with respect to observatory equipment are soundly based, but we did not feel that at the present time we were in a position to ask for an additional vote for equipment.
So far as the other point is concerned, it is quite true that salaries paid in Canada to scientific men do not compare favourably with those paid in the United States. That is true not only of astronomers but along many other lines. If we were to examine the facts concerning United States universities we would find that many of them are staffed by Canadians who are drawing salaries very much greater than they could have secured in Canadian universities. I agree that probably this is a loss to Canada, although in other respects it may have beneficial effects. I do not know what can be done about it.
These positions are classified by the civil service commission. They state the salary range that shall be applicable to the various positions. I believe the observations of the hon. member for Mount Royal must carry considerable weight. He may have presented one of the matters to be considered by the committee which is to inquire into civil service conditions.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: The point I make is that young men of to-day who are seeking their future in scientific research would find it no advantage to come to Ottawa if, as they say, our equipment is largely obsolete. They admit one or two branches are well equipped, but they say that generally the equipment is such that it is no inducement to young men to follow their careers in Canada, and so they are prone to go out of the country. We might be better off with half a dozen properly equipped than with twenty-four for whom there is old equipment we have had for the last fifteen years.
'1952-44i


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In reply to the point that the equipment may not be up to date I would say that the use of a telescope of lesser range would not militate against the young man's training in the science of astronomy. As a matter of fact some of the past and present observatory staff are of a calibre which would compare favourably with the staffs in any similar observatory.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There are twenty-three astronomers out there.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Frank Exton Lennard: Who in the civil service is the authority on astronomy? Who sets the papers? Are they set by the civil service commission or by the department? Are the examiners men within the civil service?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand that it is the practice of the civil service commission, in connection with scientific and professional positions requiring certain degrees of skill, to secure expert advice as to the type of examination which should be set.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They check their academic training.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. For instance, they have to certify to medical doctors. I do not know that the members of the civil service commission are qualified to pass on the technical knowledge of medical men, but they take the necessary steps to set the examination, as is done in connection with other scientific branches of the federal service.


Frank Exton Lennard: Who marks the papers after they have tried the examination?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As I understand it, the civil service commission do not mark the papers, but they set up an examining board of experts which marks the papers or gives oral marks if the examination is oral. It is on their marking that the civil service commission finally gives its certificate.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Their report.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Their report.


Mr. MARSH:: I should like to say a word or two in criticism and also in support of the observatory at Ottawa. I know it is true that our observatory at Ottawa cannot compete with the great observatories of the world, but it is doing a worth while work. My only quarrel with this vote is that it is half what it should be, but I also realize that this is not the year in which to increase the item, in view of more pressing problems. I should like to point out that there is a type of astronomical observation which can be done and is being done with the equipment we have. In conjunction with other observatories, the Ottawa
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observatory is doing a really worth while work which may result at some future date m the forecasting of world weather. Some very valuable research work has been done by this observatory in spectroscopy of the sun. Some humorous comments have been made on the work of astronomers, but I want to say that an astronomer is not a man who goes out, looks aloft, and writes a piece of poetry like "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star." He is a student of a legitimate science, the forerunner of both chemistry and physics. Quite often the findings of the astronomer are communicated to the physicist and the chemist, and the result is that, for instance, we are able to make a certain type of steel in four days instead of ten. Another result was the discovery of helium by the use of which we are able to travel safely in heavier than air machines inflated by a non-inflammable gas.
Great care has been taken in years gone by to build up this observatory in Ottawa. The question has been raised if there is any collaboration between our observatory and the various astronomical departments of our universities. The answer is, yes. There is a close cohesion in this connection. Since this observatory was built some years ago it has been of real value in education. It has been pointed out that perhaps we do not need twenty-two or twenty-three astronomers, but the science of astronomy necessitates a comprehensive knowledge of mathematics and men to observe, to calculate, to chart and to analyse scientific findings. Our astronomers have been carefully educated. It has taken them years to train, and I definitely know that our astronomers in Ottawa compare favourably with those connected with other observatories in the world. The fact is that they lack the proper equipment. While our fourteen-inch telescope cannot compare with the large instrument at Victoria or the one at Mount Wilson, the fact remains that in the measurement of stellar distances, some types of spectroscopy, and in connection with research work on meteors and in the determination of the consistency of the atmosphere of the earth, valuable work has been done with so-called obsolete equipment.
If we have in mind the establishment of an air route from the Atlantic to the Pacific we must retain in this country whatever we have in the way of astrophysical, astronomical, seismographical and geodetical experts. If the finances of this countiy permit, I would suggest that next year this vote should be doubled or tripled if people are to travel safely by air from one side of this country to the other.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Dominion astrophysical observatory, Victoria, B.C., $31,220.
Richard Bedford Bennett: With the equipment he
has at Victoria, the chief astronomer has made a contribution of world-wide importance. I had the pleasure of recommending him for a commandership in the Order of the British Empire. He was able to make that contribution to world knowledge because of the equipment he had with which to carry on his work.


James Samuel Taylor: Does this vote include an amount to reimburse the municipality of Saanich for its out-of-pocket expenses in the matter of a fire that occurred on the observatory mountain three years ago?
I have made persistent attempts to have some attention paid to this account and I was hoping that it would be provided for in the estimates this year.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is no amount included in this item to reimburse the municipality of Saanich for its claim, which has been under investigation for some little time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion water and power bureau, including the administration of the dominion water power and irrigation acts and including grant of $250 to the international executive council, world power conference, $222,050.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I should like to make
one or two observations which I hope the minister will answer immediately or refer to when he next rises in his place. I notice that the number of employees in this branch has been reduced by two, while the vote for the branch has been increased by some few thousand dollars. There is also an increase in the general expenses of the branch. The total increase in the vote amounts to approximately S27.000, and there are no details of this increase. I was just wondering if the time has not come when this large staff could be greatly reduced. The work carried on by the branch must have decreased in recent years, since the provinces have large staffs carrying on the same work. In Ontario the hydroelectric commission has a large staff doing exactly the same type of work, and I have no doubt that their staff is considerably overmanned. I came in contact with four parties from the Hydro-Electric Power Commission of Ontario some two hundred and fifty miles north of lake Superior. The work being done by those four parties could have been done quite well by one. Since the provinces are themselves doing most of this work, the activities of the branch must be confined largely to the northwest territories and other unorganized districts. These water powers have prob-
FEBRUARY 22, 193S	693
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ably been gone over so often that we must have numerous details and estimates relating to exactly the same water powers. Will the minister tell us precisely what this staff does, and whether it does anything in Ontario? If it does anything in Ontario, does it do exactly the same work as the hydro-electric power commission? If it does anything in other provinces, does it do the same work that similar staffs in those provinces are doing?
I am of the opinion that this country is hugely overstaffed so far as governmental employees are concerned-I am not referring to [DOT]the dominion, but to the country collectively. As has been said by so many-I have said it myself before-the cost of government to-day is simply terrific in a country of approximately eleven millions. I should like the minister to tell me what this huge staff does.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The increase is apparent and not real. In previous years, under an arrangement with them, the western provinces made a contribution, which last year amounted to approximately $30,000 to the federal water and power bureau for the work which that bureau did for them. The procedure has been changed this year so that instead of the amount that we get from the provinces coming directly to the department and being available for the work of the department, it is now being paid into the consolidated revenue fund. Consequently we had to increase our estimate this year to make up the deficiency that would exist by reason of that fact. I can assure my hon. friend that so far as my knowledge goes there is no duplication in the work of the various provincial governments and the federal water and power bureau. As a matter of fact the work is carried on with understandings and agreements with the provinces. In the western provinces the federal water and power bureau is still doing the stream measurement work, but the most important part of the work under this vote is that which relates to international waters. For instance, international streams from the Atlantic to the Pacific-


John Ritchie MacNicol: All that work has been done many .times before.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: But these records with
regard to the fiowage and division of water have to be kept from year to year. Take the division of water for power purposes at Niagara. That cannot be based on readings or records made fifteen or twenty years ago; it has to be kept up to date.


John Ritchie MacNicol: But it is set by the 1909 treaty at 36,000 for Canada and 20,000 for the United States.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, but it has to be
measured, and it is the officials of this department, because it relates to international waters, who are responsible for looking after that. I could cite other instances of the same kind.


Mr. ROWE (Dufferin-Simeoe):: Do they measure what is taken out in the Chicago diversion?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, we cannot measure
what is taken out there because we have no men there. We simply have the United States records. Of course, there is the question of water powers in the northwest territories, the determination of power sites, the amount of power that is available not only in the territories but also in the western provinces. We had a discussion yesterday afternoon on the possibilities of irrigation in the prairie provinces. Last night I mentioned the fact that there were streams in Alberta, and also in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, which were really international streams. If we are to utilize water from these streams, only part of it belongs to us and we must know to what extent; consequently all this work that I have tried to describe is carried on by this branch.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has the department
anything to do with measuring the water power capacity on the Albany river in northern Ontario?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My officers tell me that, so far as their knowledge goes, we have not. Thfe Ontario government does that and probably passes its records on to us.


Percy John Rowe: What
accounts for the increase of $12,000 in connection with travelling expenses?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This allocation that we have received in other years from the provincial governments has been split up among various items of the work and the increase that my hon. friend has just referred to arises from that fact. A year ago part of the grant we received from the western provinces was placed against this particular item. We have not received it this year because it was paid into the consolidated revenue fund, and therefore we have increased our expenditure correspondingly.


Percy John Rowe: Is the
department sending a representative to the world power conference?
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Thomas Alexander Crerar: I was not aware that there was to be a world power conference; perhaps I am a little bit behind the times. At any rate it has not been before me for consideration.


Grote Stirling: Is stream measurement being carried on in all the provinces?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, I think I can say it is, in all the principal streams at any rate.


Grote Stirling: I believe the minister will remember that a great deal of the information collected in the first twenty years of this century, to which reference was made yesterday, in connection with irrigation possibilities, was based largely on stream measurements carried on in Alberta and Saskatchewan; and at least until a very recent date stream measurement has been carried on under this department in British Columbia as well. I wondered to what extent in other provinces that work was being done.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that we still carry on these measurements in British Columbia. We receive, of course, some financial assistance from British Columbia to reimburse us for that work, and the same is true of the prairie provinces.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Then the government does carry on stream measurements in Ontario, and if it does it must do so in the Albany river. I understood a moment ago that the department did not do that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am afraid I may have misled my hon. friend. My information is that we do not carry on this work in the Albany river. We get records from Ontario, but we carry on work where it relates to international waters and waterways in the province of Ontario; and in the western provinces we carry it on to a large extent- that is, stream measurements, rate of flow, and so on.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I understood the minister to say that this department was carrying on work in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, for which these particular provinces paid the dominion for the information it accumulated and transmitted to them. Is that true of Ontario and Quebec and the maritime provinces?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, it is. We apparently carry on some work in Ontario, but not on the Albany river. In the year 1936-37 we received a total of $32,000, made up of $5,000 from British Columbia, $2,000 from Alberta, $2,000 from Saskatchewan, $2,000 from Manitoba, $8,500 from Ontario, $10,000 from Quebec, nothing from New Brunswick, and $2,500 from Nova Scotia.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: That clears the matter up, because I was at a loss to understand why the policy should be different in different parts of Canada; whether it applied to the whole or not.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I plead guilty to perhaps misleading my hon. friend though unintentionally.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: In the details in connection with this item I see only a duplication of what I notice through all the different parts of the estimates of this department. Here we have another item of "temporary assistance"; we also have an item of $18,000 for wages. When you follow "temporary assistance" through the whole of the estimates of this department you find the total runs to nearly half a million dollars for this item, and you run into another item-wages, $18,000. Would the minister give us a few more details about these special items and why all this temporary assistance is so necessary in this department?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The particular item to which the hon. member takes exception is, I am informed, for a part-time water recorder, and the item of wages is for gauge readers and casual labour employed all over Canada. Gauges must be read at certain definite times, but we do not keep a man sitting on a chair beside the gauge to read it every ten hours; we pay him a remuneration under which he takes the job, keeps the records and gives us the information. I do not think there is anything beyond that to explain in the items to which my hon. friend has alluded.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: But with regard to this definite increase, how are these men appointed? Are they more civil service appointments? I am following "temporary assistance" all through the details of service of this department, and as I have said it runs into nearly half a million dollars.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As far as the temporary assistance is concerned, there must be a certificate from the civil service commission. As to the gauge readers, that does not come under the civil service commission because the individual remuneration will run from perhaps fifty to maybe a hundred dollars a year, depending upon the amount of work the gauge reader has to do.


Frank Exton Lennard: Does the minister expect to employ nearly double the number of gauge readers this coming year? The item of $18,000 as against $9,610 for last year represents quite an increase.

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Thomas Alexander Crerar: I know, but part of it is accounted for by the explanation I gave a moment ago to the hon. member for DufTerin-Simcoe; that is, part of the grant which we received last year from the provinces and which came direct to the department was apportioned to gauge readers. This year, as I have already explained twice to the committee, this grant is paid into consolidated revenue; accordingly we have had to increase our estimate, and the increase is for gauge readers and the other items against which it was apportioned a year ago.


Denton Massey: I notice, in the details of this item on page 119, there is a grant to the international executive council, world power conference, of $250, the same amount as the grant made last year; I assume therefore it is a recurring item. Just a word as to the world power conference. I am sure the Minister of Transport as an engineer will agree that this conference is one of the most important engineering bodies in the world. Canada is one of the most important power countries of the world. The world power conference was held in 1936, and met, I believe, in Washington. Later, the delegates had the privilege of visiting our Chippawa plant at Niagara Falls as well as other plants in Canada. The advertising alone is good for Canada. One should not underestimate from our point of view as a dominion that particular phase of the world power conference. There is also the exchange of ideas at such a meeting which is of extreme value to us. We all recognize that in certain countries of the world particularly Canada, the United States and the Scandinavian nations, water power development has been carried forward with extraordinary efficiency. The Swedes, with their new plant at Ivrongede, set a very high standard in water power development. The engineers who were responsible for the building of that government-built and government-operated plant at Krongede visited the world power conference and later came to Chippawa. I am sure our engineers received much from them and were able to give much to them in return.
We grant only $250 under this item for so important a body as the world power conference. I am sure that the minister, although he did not know there was to be another meeting of the conference in the near future, will be good enough to explain to the committee why we provide a grant of only $250 to such an important international body, and that he will also let us have his reactions, perhaps not under this grant, on the development of the international relations of Canada as one of the great power producers of the world.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: 
Denton Massey: That is on a per capita basis?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know what is the basis of working it out, whether it is a per capita arrangement or not.


Denton Massey: We always send a representation, do we?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think that usually that has been done, and that when we come to consider the matter we shall probably do so again. But this $250 is simply our annual contribution to the maintenance of a permanent office in London for the countries in this conference. It is the amount that has been paid in past years, and can be regarded as Canada's share in the maintenance of that office. I assume that the United States and all the other countries which are parties to the conference also make contributions. The expense of maintaining the office between conference periods is probably not very heavy. At any rate that is our contribution and I understand that is all we have been asked for.


Denton Massey: Whom did we send as our representative to the world power conference held in Washington in 1936?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The representative of this department at the conference a year ago was, I think, Mr. Johnston who is chief of the water and power bureau.


William Earl Rowe: Did Mr. Thirpe represent the department at the world conference in 1936?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The world conference is held only every sixth year, but frequently there are sectional conferences held in intervening years. On an occasion of that kind the gentleman to whom my hon. friend refers was probably present.


Denton Massey: Has there been any attempt on the part of the government to disseminate the findings of these conferences? In other words, do the producers of power throughout Canada receive from the government reports
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which will add to their store of knowledge and assist them in the development of their plants, or does the government merely send a representative for its own benefit?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand the reports of the conference proceedings are printed and published and are available to people interested. The reports can be supplemented by direct information that the Canadian representative gets at the conference.


Percy John Rowe: If the world power conference has any influence on the studied policy of the government, it might be well for the government to review the decisions of the conference, or the papers presented, with reference to the exchange of electric power between countries, especially the considered judgment that the exportation of power cannot be stopped without giving rise to serious international difficulty. I think if we were represented at that world conference, and if that is the considered judgment, it might be appropriate for the government during this year at least to take cognizance of the results of the last world conference.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: A matter of that kind is not within the purview of the conference. The conference is held for the purpose of exchanging technical information, enabling representatives of the various countries to exchange views on power engineering science and technical matters. A conference of that kind would scarcely be concerned with questions of public policy such as that of .the export of power. According to the information supplied to me, such questions are outside the scope of the conference.


Percy John Rowe: I might point out that at that conference it was indicated that in the near future all the readily available power resources of this country, the most accessible and least costly to develop, would be utilized. It was also pointed out that it is in the best interests of the dominion economically to develop industry in Canada, give employment to our own people, and stop migration to other countries. That was given, I understand, in a paper as representing Canada's views. Even though these conferences may be more or less of a technical nature-and I quite agree with the minister that I would not expect our representative at such a conference to settle or even pass much of an opinion as to the international difficulties which might arise with reference to the exchange of power between countries-I might point out that it was more or less from an engineering standpoint having regard to the amount of power available that the view was ex-
IMr. Massey.]
pressed that power should not be exported. I think it might be well at this .time for the government to review that in view of prospective developments this session.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Did I understand the minister to say in regard to this item that there are no special increases in the activities of the department this year? There is so much noise in the chamber that sometimes one can scarcely hear. Have the activities of the department been carried on about the same as previous years?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Well, I notice the item of travelling expenses is two and one-half times greater than that for the previous year. People back home keep asking why government costs continue to increase and pile up. Can the minister explain that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have already explained that the amounts formerly paid directly to the department from the provinces for services rendered, have now been treated differently; the money received from the provinces now goes directly into the consolidated revenue fund, and consequent^ we have had to increase our estimates. Assessing that part of the cost against gauge readers, travelling expenses, and in other directions, accounts for the increase not only in .this particular item but in several others that have been referred to this afternoon.


William Allen Walsh: 
Thomas Alexander Crerar: I appreciate the homily that my hon. friend has directed to me, but his alarm is wholly unfounded. I have already explained, I think at least three times, that a sum of approximately $30,000, which prior to this year was received from the provincial governments for services rendered by this branch to those governments, is now paid directly into the consolidated revenue fund, and consequently we have to increase our vote to compensate for that difference. As an actual matter of fact the expenditure under this particular item this year is less than it was last year. It has not grown; it is down; but because of that method of treatment which, as I say, I have already explained to the committee several times, we have had to increase the estimate from about $197,000 to $222,000.
I wholly appreciate the importance of the point raised by the hon. member for Mount Royal. I have had a good deal of experience in the necessity of balancing budgets, others as well as my own, and I quite recognize the
importance of that. But without any offence to my hon. friend may I chide him a little bit for inconsistency. Only a short time ago on another item he suggested that we were not paying sufficiently large salaries to certain members of our staff, and that the item should be increased in order to pay larger salaries. Now he is on the other horn of the dilemma, suggesting that we should balance our budget. AVell, that is all right; but I wish to say to my hon. friend that in reality there is not an increase. There is actually a decrease.


William Earl Rowe: How much of a decrease?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: About $3,000 from what it was a year ago; but because of the method of treating the amounts received from the provinces for the services we render-, as compared with the treatment in other years, the item has had to be increased.


William Allen Walsh: I quite appreciate the remarks of the minister. If he would take the trouble to read Hansard to-morrow he would notice that I did advocate increasing certain salaries; but I urged that the item itself should not be increased; that probably fewer could be engaged in the work, so that those retained could be paid a greater and more beneficial remuneration for their services.


Abraham Albert Heaps: What would the hon. member do with the others who were laid off?


William Allen Walsh: The others would find
employment as they do now. The minister will tell the hon. member for Winnipeg North that his is a changing staff, due to the low salaries paid. These people seek employment elsewhere and take advantage of the increased remuneration that is paid in other fields. They are using the department as a place to gain experience; after that experience is obtained they go elsewhere to apply it.
I quite appreciate the fact that the minister is experiencing the difficulty of having thrown back on his department a certain decrease in revenues that formerly were obtained from the provinces; but he has had this experience, as I have, in budgeting. I have been administering and looking after a budget for the past twenty years or more, and whenever it has been found necessary to increase a budget in some respects, rather than increase the budget as a whole we have had to take away from other items in order to compensate for that greater expenditure or that loss in revenue. I think when the minister realized that the provinces were no longer going to bear this share of the cost, amounting to twenty odd thousand dollars-
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Thomas Alexander Crerar: May I interrupt my hon. friend? They do bear that share, but now they pay it directly into the consolidated revenue fund and not into the department.


William Allen Walsh: The minister's department is not credited with it at the present time. Therefore his budget, in reference to this item, shows a noticeable increase. Rather than having to bear the responsibility for any increase, I would have taken steps to see to it that there was an appreciable decrease elsewhere to make up for that loss of revenue under this item. I am rather earnest in putting forward this plea. I am not doing it for political purposes; I do not think in my constituency it appeals one iota, because I am not interested in public works or anything of that nature. I feel, however, that to-day in Canada there is a definite sentiment-and I think the government appreciates this fact as well as I do in opposition-that government is costing us too much, not only in the dominion field but in the provincial and municipal fields as well. Sooner or later- and it might just as well be sooner-there has to be a decrease in the cost of government.


Mr. HANSON:: We have too many governments.


William Allen Walsh: We have too many, and
those we have are too expensive. I hope next year, when these estimates are being prepared, the Minister of Finance will issue instructions to every department of government that their estimates have to come in ten per cent lower than those of the present year. Let the ministers worry as to how they are going to effect that reduction, but let him not accept any estimates which do not show that decrease. We have had to do this in other walks of life. Businesses have had to do it. Municipalities have had to do it. School boards have had to do it. We have worked under those instructions. I have had to do it. I received instructions to do it. I did not like it; but it had to be done and it was done without impairing the efficiency of the service rendered.
I want to urge that upon the minister and upon the government. It has to be done sooner or later, and I am hoping that the Minister of Finance and his colleagues who prepare these estimates will take the necessary steps to decrease the cost of government in Canada. They can decrease their own costs; they can set an example, so that other taxing bodies may do likewise.


Charles Avery Dunning: I suppose I would really be out of order in discussing on one item the general financing of the country, but I

must point out that the matter is really not quite as easy as the hon. member for Mount Royal puts it. To start with, let us consider the large items of expenditure to which he would apply the ten per cent axe to which he has refereed. For instance, let us take one of the biggest items, namely, war pensions. Obviously the reduction would not work out there. Let us consider another one, interest on debt. I am glad to be able to say, as the hon. member will find in the estimates, that there is a reduction in that item. But he would be the first to agree that that cannot be dealt with in an arbitrary manner; it is a matter of the money market, and the control of -urrency and credit.
Then, let us consider another large item- and it is in connection with the big items that the difficulty arises. We have an expenditure of $30,000,000 for old age pensions. Are we going to cut that by ten per cent? So you go through the list of uncontrollable expenditures of the government, those items which are statutory, and you will find that applying a reduction is not the same thing as applying it in an operating organization, such as a school board, a municipal organization or even a business.
There is very much less within the control of government, as such, in the Dominion of Canada than there is in any comparable organization within the country. While I appreciate the assistance of the hon. member, it would seem that so far he appears to be practically alone in his suggestions of general economy. If it was the disposition of this parliament to hold its own hand in asking for increased expenditures, that would be the most effective assistance which could be rendered to a minister of finance, in holding down the estimates, generally. For every hon. member who objects to the size of expenditure there are at least ten-often including the one who objects-who rise in their places and ask for increased expenditures along one line or another.
I am not complaining; but I say that this is a fact in parliament as it is constituted to-day, and as it has been constituted since I have had any acquaintance with it. Perhaps we could all agree that we would each take the kind of self-denying ordinance which the hon. member for Mount Royal would have me impose. It would be a great deal easier to accomplish, if all would invite it, rather than all object to its being imposed on any particular item in which they are personally or generally interested.


Abraham Albert Heaps: What percentage of national
expenditures are controllable, and what percentage uncontrollable?
FEBRUARY 22, 193S	699
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Charles Avery Dunning: I cannot answer offhand.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Approximately.


Charles Avery Dunning: I would not attempt to
state it even approximately. We might differ as to definitions. If we take as uncontrollable only that which is statutory, then of course we would reach a conclusion different from that which we must reach if we examined each expenditure, and decided for ourselves as to whether it was or was not controllable. However, I shall have that information later in the session. I have not an answer at the present time, and I do not wish to make a guess.


William Allen Walsh: I do not want the minister
to feel that I am not fully cognizant of the difficulties a minister of finance or a minister of natural resources must face. I quite appreciate what has been said. I am sorry if I am wandering away from the item under discussion; but let me point out that last year under the item of conversions we saved S6.000.000. What was done with it? That $6,000,000 was gobbled up, along with about $20,000,000 more.


Abraham Albert Heaps: The military estimates.


William Allen Walsh: That money is gone. If
we could only have held the estimates at what they were last year we would have accomplished something. That is the point I am trying to make. Hold them; keep them fixed. On the same page on which appears the item we are discussing, there is another one which involves a tremendous increase.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No, no.


William Allen Walsh: Oh, I know that supposedly
there is a decrease.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is an actual decrease.


William Allen Walsh: But if you show it to the
ordinary citizen he will say there is an increase, because the figures are there. I know the reason for it; but if you take the aggregate of the figures to be presented by the Minister of Mines and Resources, I dare say those estimates will show an increase, not a decrease. Surely to goodness we can draw the line and say, "They are fixed; they cannot go higher than that." Then when we make conversions and save $6,000,000; when the pensions decrease as, over a period of years, they will, and as other fixed items show a decrease, we can gradually bring the estimates down to a more reasonable basis. That is the point I make.
I am not unappreciative of the difficulties of this or any other department of government, but I feel it is time to call a halt to government expenditures, particularly if they seem to be excessive.


Charles Avery Dunning: If the hon. member will take the estimates on his desk and look at page 2, he will find a summary of the totals of all departments, showing the increase or decrease as compared with the main estimates for the current year. At the bottom of the page he will see that the aggregate amount of the main estimates now under consideration is $2,900,471.65 less than the aggregate of the main estimates for the current year. Of course that does not tell the whole story. Everything depends upon what will be added, in due course, as a result of supplementary estimates. But I must repeat that the comparison between the main estimates now presented and the main estimates presented last session is favourable to the amount I have indicated. I believe this is a reasonably fair comparison of departmental and running expenses of government in one year as compared with those in another. On that page the decreases or increases are shown, department by department, and the result, as I have indicated, is an aggregate decrease of $2,900,471.65.


William Allen Walsh: That is not the general impression in the country.


Charles Avery Dunning: But that is the truth.


William Allen Walsh: The impression conveyed through the editorial columns of newspapers is that there is an actual increase in the estimates before us to-day as compared with the estimates brought down on a similar occasion last year. It is indicated that there is an increase of between S20,000,000 and $30,000,000.


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not know where the hon. member gets that information.


William Allen Walsh: Well, I have the information. I would like to look it up and bring it to the chamber later.


Charles Avery Dunning: I am giving only the facts.


Frank Exton Lennard: In connection with the items respecting the dominion water and power bureau, with which we are now dealing, I say that the new system of accounting is not satisfactory. If, for instance, Ontario owed an amount for work done by the bureau, the latter should get credit for it. In the same way, that credit should be shown so that hon. members may know what is going on. We should know about the work done for the different provinces. For instance, how do I know how much has been done in Saskatche-
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wan in the past year? I should know that, and I should know what work is done by the department in every part of Canada. We should know about departmental affairs. If we are at all interested, we should gain a more general knowledge.


Charles Avery Dunning: The hon. member's
problem is that of knowing where to look for the information. I shall be very glad to tell him. The principle upon which the revenues of Canada have been operated for many years is laid down in the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act. The basic principle is that all moneys shall go into one consolidated fund. There was the odd departure, such as occurred in this particular department, where the moneys were collected and disbursed by the branch. I think the hon. member will agree that that would not be a good business principle to adopt in running the affairs of the country.
The fact that moneys are collected by the department for services rendered is of record. There should be no difficulty about the matter as the auditor general's report which I tabled a week or two ago contains not only the particulars of the expenditures of each department but the particulars of the revenues received. The point raised by the minister in connection with this matter is that we have recently applied the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act to the revenues collected by this branch. Formerly this was not the case. On every occasion on which the auditor general learns that there is any revenue collected by a department and retained and expended by that department, my attention is called to the procedure and it is stopped. Such money goes into the consolidated revenue fund and the expenditures of each department must be voted by this house out of the consolidated revenue fund of the country.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Will there be anything in the supplementary estimates for this item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot say definitely, but I think it is unlikely.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The minister has said that there is a reduction in these items, and in order to see whether that is the case it would be necessary to know whether anything will be included in the supplementary estimates.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not anticipate that there will be any increase in this particular vote.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Lake of the Woods control board, $7,576.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Do the United States pay an amount equal to this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They pay an amount
based upon their particular interest in this lake. The larger part of the Lake of the Woods lies within Canada, a small area being in the United States.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The northwest angle
and all the water immediately south would be in United States territory.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think there is one bay at the end of the lake which is in the United States, but I cannot give its relative proportion to the whole lake. I should say that perhaps three-quarters of the lake is in Canadian territory.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the purpose of this control?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The purpose is to regulate the flow of water from the lake into the AVinnipeg river by maintaining the lake level between certain datum points, I think between 1059 and 1064. It is essential that the flow of water into the Winnipeg river should be controlled in order that the power plants located on the river may operate at the proper capacity.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Is the total cost of this control paid by the federal government, or does Manitoba contribute?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: An agreement has been entered into by Manitoba and Ontario with the federal government covering the division of expenses. The two provinces contribute to these expenses.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Has this control board given satisfaction since its establishment in the control of the waters of the Winnipeg river?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think it has given general satisfaction. At any rate, since I have had anything to do with this department no complaints have been received.


Grote Stirling: How many outlets are there to the lake?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think there is only one, the Winnipeg river at the north.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for the expenses incurred under the agreement between the dominion, Ontario and Manitoba confirmed by the Lac Seul Conservation Act, 1928, money expended to be reimbursed, $20,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Just what does this control consist of, and does it cover control over the waters between lake St. Joseph and Lac Seul?

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Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not think lake St. Joseph is involved in this particular control. Lac Seul lies wholly within the province of Ontario and it drains into the Winnipeg river. The regulation of the flow of water from Lac Seul to the Winnipeg river is an important factor in the maintenance of sufficient water in the river to enable the power plants to operate at the proper capacity. There is also a power site, on the English river, that drains Lac Seul into the Winnipeg river, and the control of these waters will also be important when that power site is developed, as it probably will be at some future date. The expenditure in connection with the regulation of the flow of water from the lake is actually borne by the provincial governments.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engineering and construction service, $136,190.
Mr. MASSEY': Is this the item under which I should discuss the possible development of iron mining in the northwest territories and within the arctic circle? I desire to be in order as I do not want to mislead again the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Finn).
Thomas Alexander Crerar: That discussion would come properly under item No. 125, or any of the other items under the mines and geology branch.


Denton Massey: The minister would rather that I did not discuss it under this item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think it is advisable to keep within the item before the committee.


Grote Stirling: What is covered by this item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That covers the expenses of this branch in connection with engineering sendees for the whole department. The national parks, which are administered by the Department of Mines and Resources, contain about 900 miles of roads and in addition to that the department is constructing the highway from Banff to Jasper. It is also constructing the section of the trans-Canada highway between Golden and Revelstoke. That was an obligation first undertaken by the government of the present Prime Minister when he was formerly at the head of the government, and was later added to by the present leader of the opposition in 1933 or 1934. Then there are a few architects in connection with designing buildings in the parks, and Indian schools and Indian office buildings that have to be erected here and there for administrative purposes. That and the clerks and draftsmen comprise the greater part of the expense. Of
this amount of $136,000 odd. approximately $119,000 or $120,000 is for salaries. There is .$6,000 for printing and stationery, provision for drafting blue-prints and plans, and so on, travelling expenses and sundry items.


Grote Stirling: This is what one might call the design and supervision-to take one instance-of the Banff-Jasper highway?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Grote Stirling: Where is the vote for the actual work that is being carried out?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Part of the expenditures in connection with the Banff-Jasper and the Revelstoke-Golden roads is included in this; that is, the supervision of the staff that is doing the work.


Grote Stirling: What about wages,
dynamite and tools?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is not in this.


Grote Stirling: Where is it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That will be in the
supplementary vote when brought down. It is hoped to carry on the work this year.


Grote Stirling: Is it still looked upon as a relief measure?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think it will probably be voted in the supplementary estimates this year. Since 1931 or 1932 that work has been more or less classed as relief work. It has been carried on under the former Public Works Construction Act, and later special supplementary estimates were introduced. In the public mind it is related to relief. The likelihood is that when the votes for these works are brought down this year they will be brought down as straight supplementary estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geodetic service, $160,500.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: WThat is the reason for the increase in this item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is all accounted for by the five per cent salary deduction that was restored a year ago. The estimates brought down at that time did not include the five per cent increase; it is included in the present estimates. I believe that actually, if we put it on a proper comparative basis, there would be a slight decline in the vote.


Grote Stirling: Why does an item
sometimes refer to temporary assistance, whereas this one speaks of wages? Is there any relation between the two? The wages item is up $4,000.
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Thomas Alexander Crerar: The wages here are for the field parties that go out on geodetic surveys. This item of wages is to cover the help that is required, I suppose, such as canoe men, cooks, labourers and the like.


Grote Stirling: Will there be a greater number of parties out this year to account for the fifty per cent increase in wages?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. There will be no more parties out this year than last year: probably not so many.


Grote Stirling: Then why is the item up $4,000?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The increase is partly accounted for by the restoration of the five per cent cut.


Grote Stirling: Oh, no. It was $9,700 and it is now $13,600.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: It is a separate item.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There has been a decrease in certain other items that go to make up the total vote, and that decrease has been used up, so to speak, in an endeavour to increase the field work, which has fallen behind to some extent.


Mr. CLARKE (Rosedale):: There is an increase in travelling expenses. Does this mean that there are more people travelling, or are we to assume that they pay more and have better accommodation?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is an increase from $950 to $1,350, or an increase of $400. That is put there because in the program of work this year the engineers will probably have to go a little further from Ottawa than they did a year ago. The work will be in the lower St. Lawrence, and some part of it in British Columbia.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
International boundary commission, $30,800.
John Ritchie MacNicol: What relation has the work performed by the engineers referred to in this particular item to the work which, the minister said, engineers had to do in relation to international waters under item No. 152? Further, Canada votes $30,800 this year for the international boundary commission; do the United States vote an equal amount, and do the United States estimates call for the same number of engineers, namely five?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As a matter of fact the United States spend a very considerable amount more on this work than Canada does. The international boundary commission have the responsibility of maintaining the bound-

ary markings between Canada and the United States. That work, of course, has to be carefully and accurately done. I understand that periodically they cover the boundary, see that the markings are maintained, that is, that the posts are in place, and if the line runs through an area where there is timber it is cut out for a certain distance on either side. For the past few years they have been working accurately to define the boundary in the mountain section in British Columbia between that province and the states on the south. That is substantially the routine work of the commission.


Grote Stirling: Here again we have this division of items into a thing called "wages," which is $1,200 up, and then total salaries and wages, which is $2,000 up. What is this item of "wages" which is continually appearing?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That, again, covers the labourers and help of that kind which is necessary on these survey parties. For instance they send out a party to mark these boundaries; they require equipment and labourers if a boundary line passes through timber which has grown up and has to be cut out and cleared up. The item covers expenses incidental to that class of work.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: The minister stated that the five per cent was applicable to the last item. I see from the details that the salaries of the engineer, surveys engineers, etc., to the international boundary commission are exactly the same as they were a year ago. Would that five per cent increase not apply to them?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If the hon. member will look at page 121 he will see that the vote was precisely the same a year ago as it is this year, but the $978 which was the salary deduction of five per cent was taken off last year; it is not taken off this year.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Is the work of this commission about completed? From year to year we have heard it was almost done and that we might hope to have it finished at any time, except for maintenance.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The work is now, I believe, very largely maintenance work. I am informed that there are still a few sections of boundary, practically all in the more northern regions between Alaska and Canada, to be definitely determined. But the vote is practically all a maintenance work vote. It is necessary to have the boundary markings properly placed and maintained.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Copyright Amendment Act
Hydrographic and map service-hydrographic service, $418,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: In connection with this item the same point again arises; we have $75,000 for wages and another amount for temporary help, bringing the total for wages and temporary help up to $109,000. How are these temporary employees engaged and how is the help recruited which is classed under the item "wages"? Approximately one-fourth of the whole item is either temporary help under its own classification or under the classification of "wages." There are many unemployed in my riding, and if the department would take temporary employees on a basis of so many from each riding, there are a number of men in my district who might qualify for this temporary employment. How are they engaged and from where do they come?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that to carry on this work four or five boats are in use during the period that the survey work is proceeding. It is necessary to have officers and crews, and according to the information given me, the item in the explanatory notes for temporary assistance covers ship's officers and temporary staff. If the hon. member will refer to page 122 of the estimates he will see that the item of $34,000 odd compares with $29,000 odd a year ago. Probably-I do not know-it is planned in the department to carry the work on for a little longer than it was carried on a year ago. The same explanation would apply to wages.


John Ritchie MacNicol: But how are these
temporary employees and wage earners engaged?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Temporary employees are certified by the civil service commission. The ordinary labourers, as I believe always has been the case, are not.
Progress reported.
At six o'clock the speaker resumed the chair and the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.



CIVIL SERVICE ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the order:
House in committee on Bill No. 3, an act to amend the Civil Service Act-Mr. Lacroix (Quebec-Montmorency).
Hon. FERNAND RINFRET (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, I move:
That this bill be not referred to the committee of the whole house but that it be referred to the special select committee on the operation of the Civil Service Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Thursday, February 17, consideration of the motion of Mr. Esling for the second reading of Bill No. 12, to amend the Copyright Amendment Act, 1931.
Mr. D. A. McNIVEN (Regina City):: I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Esling) upon his initiative in introducing this bill, and upon his tenacity of purpose in pursuing the object of this bill session after session. This bill, as I understand it, merely requires the Canadian Performing Right Society to publish a list of the musical compositions which they purport to control, under the provisions of the Copyright Act; and, second, to exempt from payment of the fee provided under the terms of the act small business establishments which use the radio in a limited way. The Canadian Performing Right Society is a monopoly, a monopoly which in the exercise of its rights has incurred the antipathy and antagonism of countless people all the way across this country. This monopoly claims to have and to control the performing rights in the repertoires of the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers, the Performing Right Society, Limited, of England, and the societies of France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Roumania, Portugal. Switzerland, Brazil, Belgium and Holland, and it maintains that included in its repertoire are some two million pieces of music. In order to impress upon its prospective customers the necessity of taking out a licence and complying with its requirements, and paying the fees which it exacts, it sends out a circular letter which contains this paragraph:
In order that the society's legal rights in the performance of the copyright music which it controls may be appreciated, we beg to draw your attention to the recent actions in court taken by the society against (1) La Paloma Restaurant Limited of 38C Yonge street, Toronto, Ontario, and (2) Champs Hotel & Cafe Limited of 1905 South Railway street, Regina, Saskatchewan.
Copyright Amendment Act

The society gives those two illustrations to show the extent of its influence and that it intends to enforce the rights which it claims from one end of the country to the other.
I am fully in accord with the generally accepted legal principle that a vendor must establish a good title to that which he proposes to sell. This society carries on its activities by means of spotters and agents who are located in the principal cities of the dominion and who travel from place to place. People who have radios in their places of business have no knowledge that these spotters or agents are among their customers. These spottera and agents visit fraternal societies where concert performances are put on, and should any musical number be included in the performance that fraternal society receives a demand either from the Performing Right Society itself or from its solicitors.
There is in progress at the present time in Regina a lawsuit in which this society seeks an injunction to restrain a small restaurant from receiving through the medium of its radio, for which it has paid the regular licence fee, a certain piece of music. Not long ago a restaurant proprietor received a demand from this society setting out that during a certain hour at his place of business there was received over the radio certain pieces of music, including "Mr. Ghost Goes to Town." The proprietor of that restaurant did not know that the Canadian Performing Right Society was included among his customers. The next piece was entitled, "You are all I Need." I assume they meant by that that his custom was what the society required. Should he comply with their requirement, sign an application for a licence, give the details which they require from time to time and pay the fee, the next number received in his place of business would be entirely applicable, being entitled "You're an Angel." And if he continued paying these fees and filing the returns required by the society from time to time, the title of the next piece of music would be most appropriate: "When I grow too old to Dream." He and his customers having listened to these selections of music, he was required to take out a licence, to send in the details which they require from time to time and to pay a minimum licence fee of $10. Bear in mind, Mr. Speaker, that the proprietor of this and proprietors of hundreds of other establishments have paid the regular licence fee required by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, for the use of a radio receiving set, and having paid that fee and made his

investment in the radio he feels he is entitled to receive over the air the broadcast programs.
Hon. members will recall, for example, the Imperial Oil broadcasts of the hockey matches on Saturday evenings, in which there are interludes of musical numbers. The Canadian Performing Right Society does not claim a monopoly of the hockey broadcasts; but while you are listening to them certain musical numbers are played in the intermissions, which numbers this society invariably claims to control, and if its demands are not met, legal action is threatened.
Mr. Speaker, I propose to support the second reading of this bill.


Mr. C. E. BOTHWELL (Swift Current):: I desire to add a word in support of the second reading of this bill. I heartily endorse the remarks made by the last speaker. I also have had some experience with this Canadian Performing Right Society through the manager of an hotel in my home city. This hotel is managed as well as any hotel in the province of Saskatchewan. For the convenience of the public the proprietor set up a radio in the rotunda in order that the patrons of the hotel and those around town who had no other opportunity to listen to hockey broadcasts might hear them. Shortly after the radio was installed in the rotunda, he W'as called on by a representative of this organization who was described to me as both ignorant and insolent. He demanded a licence fee of either $22.50 or $27.50; I have forgotten the exact amount. The proprietor said, "Rather than pay that I will take the radio out of the rotunda. I do not use it anyway." It was really a nuisance to him, but was benefiting the people who could listen in. There was no music broadcast except such as would come in before the hockey broadcasts, or perhaps for a few minutes afterwards or between the periods.
No one seems to be able to find out just what selections this organization holds the copyright of, and the bill is framed to require this information to be published and given those who pay fees. Not only do owners of radios have to pay for the radio itself; they must pay, or it is expected that they will have to pay, a $2.50 fee in order to enjoy that radio. Surely if this society is simply going to compel every person in the country who puts on a little entertainment to take out a licence, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation should boycott this organization altogether and have nothing that belongs to this outfit go out over the broadcast chain, until the society is willing to publish that list and furnish it to those who hold licences.

Copyright Amendment Act
That is not unreasonable at all. Other organizations, such as churches, service clubs, etc., put on numbers without knowing that this society holds any copyright on them, and then they are called upon and required to pay a fee. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that this is the finest racket there is, and from the description which has been given of some of the inspectors or agents or spotters, as the last speaker called them, who come around on behalf of this society, they are racketeering in proper form.
The Saskatchewan Hotels Association, at a recent meeting, passed a resolution authorizing the president to write a letter in this regard, and I assume that letter has been received by many hon. members. In any case, a day or so ago I received such a letter, dated Regina, February 10,	1938.
It reads as follows:
Mr. Wm. K. Esling, member for Kootenay West, is, we understand, presenting to parliament at this session a bill to amend the Copyright Amendment Act of 1931.
We, as hotel people in the province of Saskatchewan, believe that the tariffs charged hotels by the Canadian Performing Right Society are entirely unreasonable-that it is an unfair practice to make a charge for something, without establishing the right to make such a charge. No one seems to know the copyright works which are controlled by this society and those which are not. For that reason, they should be compelled to list all works under their control and supply such list yearly to each licensee.
Then, there is the matter of charging for dances. In the province of Saskatchewan there are perhaps only two large hotels that might be considered in a different class. One is situated in Saskatoon and the other in Regina. Other than possibly those two hotels, dances are permitted after a banquet at a very modest cost. At a great many of these functions, a price of fifty cents provides a meal and the room for dancing purposes, as well as other facilities attendant upon such occasions.
However, we then have to pay a fee to the Canadian Performing Right Society because of some numbers which the orchestra might play and over which the society is supposed to have control. We believe that orchestrations were written by the composers to be used by orchestras, and when they are purchased by these orchestras, the royalty is paid at that time. Therefore, we think it is wrong to collect another fee when such orchestrations are made use of as originally intended by the composers.
There is also the matter of radios and gramophones in hotels. There is not justifiable reason, after radio broadcasting companies pay a large sum to the Canadian Performing Right Society for the privilege of broadcasting numbers which they are supposed to have under their control, and then because we are on the 51952-45
receiving end of the broadcast, and are in the hotel business, we must pay a further fee for the right to use the radio, because at any moment, and without notice, a number supposedly controlled by the said society, might be presented. Certainly the matter of choice plays a most insignificant part in this society's reasoning.
We do not wish to make this letter too long and tiresome. Except for that, however, we could advance many other reasons for asking you to very earnestly consider and support the bill presented by Mr. Esling.
Thanking you,
Yours very sincerely,
Saskatchewan Hotels Association, Geo. G. Grant,
President.
In addition to that, even Rotary clubs throughout the country which put on entertainment features for the purpose of raising money purely for relief purposes are charged licence fees by this same society. It seems impossible for any organization such as that to select music without getting into trouble with this organization, because no one seems to know upon what orchestrations or other musical numbers they hold the copyright. I do heartily support the motion for second reading of this bill.


Mr. VITAL MALLETTE (Jacques-Cartier) (Translation):: Mr. Speaker, during the session of 1937, the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Esling) introduced in this house a bill similar to that which we are now discussing, and I believe, the same one which he had presented in 1936. The sponsor of this bill is no doubt very familiar with the question which he is propounding. He is unquestionably in good faith, and I do not know what we should most admire in him, either his convictions or the insistence with which he expresses his views before this house.
We all remember that the bill which was presented to this house last year was well received, and that it was not passed just because we were asked to test for another year the act in force. It did not get through because the hon. Secretary of State (Mr. Rinfret) asked us to leave the question in abeyance for another twelve months. Now that the year has elapsed, and since the hon. member for Kootenay West brings up the question again, the time has come to ask the hon. Secretary of State whether circumstances now permit to grant the hon. member's request and to agree to the amendments which he is proposing. After all these amendments should appear reasonable to all those who read the bill. This bill contains only two sections, and the proposed amendment

Copyright Amendment Act

to section 10 of the Copyright Amendment Act, 1931, reads as follows; from the 20th line down:
. . . and with each application for a licence or for the renewal thereof, the society shall furnish to those from whom fees are to be collected in compensation for the use of music on which the society controls copyright, a list of all titles of dramatico-musical or musical works so owned or controlled. Such list shall give the title, the name of the author and the date on which and country in which the %vork was copyrighted and the date on -which the society registered in the Copyright Office at Ottawa its ownership or control of such work, and such list shall be certified to by the Secretary of State as a correct list of the works so registered.
It seems to me that it is quite reasonable to ask that anyone who has to pay the Canadian Performing Right Society any fees should know what works are covered by such fees, as well as the rights of those who claim it, in order not to be liable to pay for certain copyrights to no purpose at all.
What answer did the company make to the amendment proposed by the honourable member for Kootenay West? We have all received letters of propaganda on behalf of the Canadian Performing Right Society Limited. I have here a circular letter addressed to me by that company. This is what these gentlemen say on page 2 of their letter about bill No. 12 which we are now discussing:
(Text) (c) aims, by sec. 1, to force the printing and free distribution of a list of 2,000,000 works to about 10,000 persons or companies, the cost of which would be prohibitive and would in any case be out of date in a week's time.
What does that mean? Does it mean that they would take so much time to prepare the list that it would be out of date in a week, or that the changes would be so numerous that the list would become valueless in a week's time?
A hotelkeeper of Jacques Cartier constituency, which I have the honour to represent, brought to my attention a case which is typical of the procedure of this company's employees. Two customers entered his hotel and ordered a drink. After listening to the music provided by a special instrument installed in the hotel, they requested that a certain composition be played. When the hotelkeeper placed the record in the instrument and set it in motion, they informed him that he would have to pay a licence fee of S30 to the Canadian Performing Right Society Limited. As he refused to pay this sum immediately he received a series of letters demanding, first S30. then $20 and finally $10. Following my advice, I believe, he settled (he matter for $10, the sum finally claimed li-uin him.

Apart from the Canadian Performing Right Society Limited, Mr. Speaker, other societies are taking an interest in this bill. I was glad to hear, a moment ago, the hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Bothwell) read to the house a memorandum from the Saskatchewan Hotelkeepers Association. I have myself received a letter from the Quebec Rural Hotelkeepers Association. May I, for the information of this hon. house, place on Hansard some of the observations made by this fine association:
We understand that the bill submitted by Mr. Esling to the House of Commons of Canada aims at putting an end to the existing difficulties and preventing the said Canadian Performing Right Society from claiming every year additional fees which are always considered too high and are most harmful to the hotel and tourist industry, not only in the province of Quebec but in every part of Canada.
In its memorandum, the rural hotelkeepers association of the province of Quebec approve of the bill we are now considering, not only because the measure is in their own interest, but also because the association fears that the interests of the tourist industry in Canada may be jeopardized.
Mr. Speaker, I submit that the bill brought down by the hon. member for Kootenay West is not harmful to the authors themselves. On the contrary, the hon. member has shown in his statement that they have his full sympathy. But he is anxious that our Canadian fellow-citizens should not be exploited by one or more societies doing business in Canada, be it under the name of Canadian Performing Right Society or any other name. This bill aims solely at protecting the public. The house will no doubt give it this year as much consideration as last year. From the speeches which we have just heard, it would seem that all are desirous of supporting this bill and I am sure we can ask the honourable the Secretary of State if circumstances have changed since last year, and if the general conditions connected with this matter have shown any improvement. Last year, most of us voted against the bill introduced by the hon. member for Kootenay West for the sole reason that the hon. the Secretary of State had requested us to leave the matter in abeyance for another year, so that it might be possible to see how the law would work out.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, I am supporting the bill introduced by the hon. member for Koptenay West, and should there be a division, I may assure him that I will vote for the measure.

Copyright Amendment Act


James Samuel Taylor: Mr. Speaker, I cannot help feeling that the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Esling) is in the right vibration when in this bill he attempts to contest the position of the Canadian Performing Right Society. It is absolutely necessary that we in Canada benefit by the cultural heritage and achievements of the world in general, and it is not unjust that when these things lie outside the public domain we should be prepared to pay for the use of them.
I am disposed to believe that the performing right society, in dispensing their wares to the people of Canada, are assuming all the prerogatives of a complete monopoly, and they are doing this in the not unnatural assurance that time will tend to confirm them in their position, and to eliminate contending elements. I am disposed to believe that they are quite unable to produce a list of the works which they assume to control. I have in mind the facility with which such a society can procure the services of hacks in order to make arrangements of certain works which lie in the public domain, or of which they would not be able to avail themselves in their original presentation.
Having said this, I reach the matter of broadcasting. I contend that the Canadian Performing Right Society has no right to assert itself beyond the original broadcasting studio. The government licenses radios through its own company, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and pays for the programs it broadcasts. In such a transaction with the society there should begin and end the expression of the society's position. To-day the society collects at the point of broadcast, and then it follows the waves along to collect again at the point of dissemination. In my opinion, in so doing it invades a territory to which it has no title, and usurps a function to which it has no right. Further, I believe its activity in any country, and especially in Canada under present conditions, will tend to destroy the development of cultural initiative upon the part of our people. If it is left secure in its monopolistic arrogance, small inducement will be presented to Canadian artists to produce Canadian works. The more I think of the matter the more I am satisfied that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is the one company representing this cultural arm of the government and the people of Canada, and that it should deal with all users of radio, and with broadcasting media.
The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation should contract with the performing right society, and with any other group of cultural 51952-451
disseminators-there is no reason to believe there will not be others-in arranging reasonable tax rates which may be recovered through small added taxes on restaurants, hotels or other disseminating users. Such taxes should also provide an excess which would be applied to recompense purely Canadian talent in Canada, and so bring us to the honoured place where we might receive and rejoice in a greatly increased Canadian cultural expression. while still paying reasonable tribute tor what the world has to give us.
For these reasons I have much pleasure in supporting the bill.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Esling), has expressed the hope that in considering this bill hon. members will look upon it not as a party matter but simply as a means of serving their constituents. I believe the hon. member will admit that that hope has been largely fulfilled inasmuch as the expressions of opinion have not been along party lines. Hon. members have expressed their individual opinions when speaking to this bill. As a general rule this is how copyright matters have been treated when brought before the house. Before I became a member of the government I remember that hon. members on both sides treated this involved and complex matter of copyright as one of individual concern.
Before I discuss the bill itself I should like to enunciate one or two principles which, it seems to me, must be considered in a discussion of this bill. Whether or not the bill is adopted, I do not think its meaning should be misconstrued. Copyright is by no means a tax or a permit or a levy; it is a property right. If a man has written a book or composed a piece of music, not only is he entitled to be considered the author or composer; not only is he entitled to the profits from the sales of such book or music, but he has the right to control over the performance thereof. In my opinion we should not tamper with this sacred principle.
I might add that in considering this bill we are dealing not with the principle of copyright, but with the Canadian Performing Right Society which claims to have acquired the performing rights to not only one, to not only a hundred, but to a million pieces of music. We have to face not just the exercise of a right by an author or composer, but the exercise of rights by a monopoly covering the performance of practically all music subject to copyright. I am sure that
Copyright Amendment Act

the introducer of this bill will not object to this distinction, as I think it gives to his bill the strength he is seeking.
Different governments that have had to do with copyright have taken the stand that there should be sections in the bill dealing with societies such as the one we are discussing. Following the international conference which took place in Rome in 1928, the Secretary of State of that time introduced a bill in 1931. While that bill followed fairly closely what had been adopted in Rome, the then Secretary of State felt that there should be a special section dealing with societies such as the Canadian Performing Right Society and section 10 of the amending bill of 1931 deals with that situation.
Subsection 2 of that section states that whenever in the opinion of the minister a society controlling a large number of pieces files rates that seem to be excessive, it shall be within the power of the minister to institute an inquiry into such rates. After representations had been made to the then government, the then Secretary of State took the stand that the rates of the Canadian Performing Right Society were disputable. Under an order in council dated March 22, 1935, the then government appointed Judge Parker as a commissioner to inquire into the Canadian Performing Right Society. This inquiry has been alluded to in former debates, and time will not permit me to go into any detail. The commissioner went into the situation very thoroughly and filed a report dated October 29, 1935.
It then became the duty of the succeeding government, through myself as Secretary of State, to give consequence to that report. I think the amending bill of 1935 implemented all the recommendations contained in the report, the main one being the appointment of an appeal board before which the rates of societies such as the one we are discussing could be considered by both sides. The decision of the board was to be final. When my hon. friend introduced his bill last year, I pointed out that this appeal board had been in existence for only a couple of months and it did not seem fair to amend the act further without waiting to see how the board worked out.
I pointed out also that it was the hope of the government that an international conference might be held in Brussels at which copyright matters would be considered. For these reasons it did not seem to me advisable to further amend the act. The house rejected that bill; but, as has been stated to-night,

this rejection was not because of the principle of the bill but because the house was willing to agree with my argument for delay.
This appeal board has now sat on two different occasions, once in December, 1936, and again in December, 1937. I have come to the conclusion that as regards the first section of this bill, it is not within the competence of the board at all and it is not likely that we shall get any enlightenment from that source. In connection with the matter dealt with by the second section, that is, the rates charged by the performing right society to hotels, restaurants and other places where music is reproduced by a mechanical process, the board apparently has taken the stand that it must maintain some rates as long as the act acknowledges the right to charge a certain rate for a certain purpose. I agree that the house must now deal with this bill on its merits. The reasons that actuated me in asking the house last year not to hurry into a pronouncement on the bill do not exist at the present time.
As for the international conference, I regret to say that it seems to have been indefinitely postponed. By that, I do not mean that it may be years before a meeting of the kind is held, but the fact is that no positive date is actually foreseen. That may be due perhaps to the grave international difficulties which exist abroad. I think, however, that it would be a mistake, if an adjustment must be made, to delay the matter further merely in the hope that perhaps within a certain space of time we may have more definite pronouncements on these very questions.
Of course, the main difficulty that parliament cannot escape is the question whether we can adopt a bill of this kind without contravening the agreement which we have entered into with the other nations. That, I must admit, is a most embarrassing question, and I must say that, so far as authorities are concerned. I have not been able to secure any agreement in that respect. It would not be fair to the house if I did not say that there may be a doubt as to whether, according to the Rome agreement of 1928, we can do exactly what my hon. friend proposes to-night. But the doubt is just as grave in the other direction. It can be contended, though, that the meeting of 1928, as regards a monopolistic society such as the one we are now discussing, made no definite pronouncement. I know that in several countries since that conference there has been adopted some method of control, either state control or control through an appeal board such as wc have in Canada, or control by means of legislation of some kind.

Copyright Amendment Act
I do not think I am misleading the house when I say that the question of control over a very large number of copyright pieces, such as is claimed by the performing right society, could not fail to be one of the main features of a future international conference and agreement; but I cannot say that we have any definite pronouncement to the effect that that would preclude parliament from adopting measures of control in face of a situation of that kind.
That would apply especially to the first section wherein it is proposed that the company shall furnish to those to whom they sell licences, lists of works for which they claim copyright and performing right. I must say in all frankness that I consider the section rather futile; I do not think it is very useful. If you consider it carefully you will find that this society in selling licences allows the use of everything it has in stock. There is no reason, therefore, why anybody buying a licence should desire to have a list of all the works controlled by the society, because he knows when he buys a licence that he is free to use any. The section will be more useful when in the future several societies control different lists and appear on the market; but at the present time I do not think the section can be very useful, and I know it would be burdensome to the society and might have the effect in the long run of forcing them with a certain degree of reasonableness, to increase the price of their licence. But as we have provided in previous legislation to exact from the society a list to be filed with the Secretary of State, I fail to see, although the argument has been presented to us from outside quarters, how there can be more of a contravention of any international agreement to provide that, such a list having been filed with us, it should also be supplied to the public. For that reason I shall not take exception to the section, although, as I have said, I do not think it will serve any great purpose.
The second section is in my opinion much more important. It deals with the reproduction of music, by radio or gramophone. This was one of the principal subjects discussed at the last conference in Rome, and it was dealt with in two articles which I shall put on Hansard:
Article 11 bis.
(1)	The authors of literary and artistic works enjoy the exclusive right to authorize the communication of their works to the public by radio diffusion.
(2)	It belongs to the national legislatures of the countries of the union to regulate the conditions for the exercise of the right declared in the preceding paragraph, but such conditions
shall have an effect strictly limited to the country which establishes them. They cannot in any case adversely affect the moral right of the author, nor the right which belongs to the author of obtaining an equitable remuneration fixed, in default of an amicable agreement, by competent authority.
Article 13.
(1)	Authors of musical works have the exclusive right to authorize: (1) the adaptation of these works to instruments serving to reproduce them mechanically; (2) the public performance of the same works by means of these instruments.
(2)	The limitations and conditions relative to the application of this article shall be determined by the domestic legislation of each country in its own case; but all limitations and conditions of this nature shall have an effect strictly limited to the country which shall have adopted them.
If you interpret these two articles in the only way in which they can be interpreted, there is no doubt in the first place that the composer of music is entitled to performing right when his music is reproduced by any mechanical process. But there is no doubt, either, that the convention has left to the individual countries which are parties to the agreement the right to legislate upon the matter in the way they think best suited to their own requirements. In 1931-and I must hasten, because I should like to get through before nine o'clock-the Secretary of State of the time in dealing with these articles added to his act a paragraph in the definitions reading:
(q) "performance" means any acoustic representation of a work or any visual representation of any dramatic action in a work, including a representation made by means of any mechanical instrument or by radio communication.
I submit that by the articles which I have read and also by this definition, which is included in our act, it is clearly stipulated that something should be paid for the performance by mechanical process of any piece of music. But it stops there. There has been no further provision preventing the government from legislating as to the price of the performance being paid one way or the other.
Let me now deal with the radio situation- and I think I can do so in very few words. The broadcasting stations are already paying to the Canadian Performing Right Society a very considerable price for the broadcasting of music. I am quite willing to take the stand personally that this is the proper way to meet the situation, because the broadcasting station chooses the piece of music that it wants to broadcast; it picks one piece of music rather than another. That is the very spirit of copyright; if you want to play my music you must pay me for it; if not, then do not play it. But what about the poor
Copyright Amendment Act

fellow in the small restaurant who has a radio and turns it on to get a hockey match or, it may be, a speech by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett). It may be a dramatic representation. And if, perchance, after one has listened to those different broadcasts for fifteen minutes-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Turn off the radio.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: -there should come to the radio a piece of music controlled by the performing right society, this society claims payment for that particular broadcast. According to our act as it stands, I think the society has a right to do so; but that is what my hon. friend wants to have amended, and I am quite willing to take the stand, personally and also as Secretary of State, that inasmuch as the performance of music is paid for, it does not matter very much either from the point of view of copyright or of any international convention whether it is paid for by the broadcasting company or by the people who, having bought radios, have that music thrust upon them whether they have chosen to hear it or not.
I wish just ito add that the total sum which may be collected by the society this year from radio broadcasting amounts to $83,081.22. That is computed on the number of radios in this country. Inasmuch as these broadcasting stations pay according to the number of radio receiving sets there are in the country, to a certain extent they are already paying for any receiver who gets that music through the receiving set.
Therefore, after pondering over the situation carefully, and after hearing representations made not only by many correspondents but by the hon. members who have taken a stand to-night on this matter-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Part of the time you
were at the St. Henry election, you know.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I am sorry that, desiring to conclude before nine o'clock, I cannot be driven out of my line of argument-1 do not feel that the government should delay in any further way the second reading of this bill. Two years ago the hon. member introduced his bill, and he was asked to make way for the government. Last year he also introduced the same bill; but on account of circumstances to which I alluded at the beginning of my remarks, I asked the house not to pass it. Now the whole business is before parliament; it is well known, and it can well be decided on its merits. I say, in conclusion,
that the government will be guided in this matter by the vote of the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third time, and passed.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Surveys and engineering branch-hydrographic service, $418,000.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: Before we proceed with the consideration of this item, I wish to correct an answer that I made this afternoon to the hon. member for Davenport, who inquired if there are any employees in the Department of Mines and Resources who draw salaries from two departments. I overlooked the fact that there are in the immigration branch certain employees who are really employees of the Department of National Revenue, and who are stationed principally at customs ports of entry. Across the Canadian international boundary, as my hon. friend knows, are a great many ports of entry. Many of these ari light ports where there may not be more than half a dozen or even one or two in a day seeking to cross. Purely as a matter of economy arrangements have been made with the Department of National Revenue that their officers at such ports act as our immigration inspectors. For the service they render in that respect a small salary is allowed them. I think in most cases it is $10 or $12 a month. Only to that extent does the condition prevail to which my hon. friend referred this afternoon.


Grote Stirling: Would the minister give some information in regard to the progress made in the hydrographic survey of the Pacific coast? I take it this item covers the surveys that have been in operation up the coast of the Queen Charlotte islands.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is in charting waters?


Grote Stirling: That is what this vote covers, is it not?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. I am informed that the work was completed last year in the water adjacent to the Queen Charlotte islands. This year it is proposed to carry on the work between Vancouver island and the mainland, chiefly at the south part of the island.

Supply-Mines and Resources


Grote Stirling: Does the minister mean that the charting of the waters adjacent to the Queen Charlotte islands has been completed, or just that part of the work arranged for 1937?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is further work yet to be done in that district. The survey of the part of the coastal waters of the Queen Charlotte islands under way last year has been completed. I cannot say at the moment the precise area covered, but this season the work is to be done between Vancouver island and the mainland chiefly at the south part of the island.


Grote Stirling: Does the department own the surveying vessels and equipment?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are two vessels, one called the William J. Stewart and the other the Pender, that have been engaged in this survey work in the coastal waters of British Columbia.


Grote Stirling: They are hired vessels?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; they are owned by
the department.


Richard Bedford Bennett: One is new, built two or three years ago?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, I understand the
William J. Stewart is a comparatively new boat, only a few years old.


Frank Exton Lennard: In the details on page
122 of the estimates, there is an item, wages, 875,302. What does that cover?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is wages for ships'
crews and shore parties as well as for board while on shore, for hydrographic officers, ships' officers and crews. That will be expended approximately as follows:	On the steamship
Acadia operating in the gulf of St. Lawrence and Quebec region, 817,100; the Cartier operating also in the gulf of St. Lawrence and Cape Breton, 815,750; the Boulton operating on the upper St. Lawrence river, the Ontario-Quebec section, S2,430; the Henry Hudson operating on the north shore of the lower St. Lawrence, S2.430. Then there is the Georgian Bay, Ontario survey, 82,250; the William J. Stewart on the Pacific coast, 828,350; the Pender on the Pacific coast, S5.400, and the Lillooet, laid up, also on the Pacific coast, 81,407. There is a small item for precise water levels on the St. Lawrence and great lakes. $25; and tidal and current surveys, 8100. These are wages for the crews operating these vessels.


Frank Exton Lennard: Are they permanent
employees or temporary?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They are largely seasonal
employees. These ships do not work in the winter.


Frank Exton Lennard: But are the same men
employed from year to year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Sometimes. It varies.


Frank Exton Lennard: This would not come
under temporary assistance?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


Alan Webster Neill: Was the Lillooet in commission last year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; she is laid up and
will not be used this year, I am told.


Alan Webster Neill: Is there not ample need
for both boats operating on the Pacific coast?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are two; there is
the Pender and the William J. Stewart.


Alan Webster Neill: The Pender is only a houseboat, is it not?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; it is a little bigger
than a houseboat; it does good work. The William J. Stewart of course, is the large boat of the service.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Legal surveys and map service, including grant of $350 to assist in printing the publication of the Canadian Institute of Surveying, $171,510.
Richard Bedford Bennett: How many people in
the public service are engaged in making maps?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am afraid I cannot at
the moment give information as to the total number. In this particular subdivision of the department there are sixty-four permanent employees.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Perhaps the minister
will say what other departments are engaged in making maps.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: The
Department of National Defence for one.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That and the Department
of Mines and Resources I think are the only two.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think the minister will find that there is another. Who makes the maps connected with the franchise act?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is done under this particular vote.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They are doing that now?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; that is part of the work which comes under this vote. I might
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give the functions of the staff engaged under this vote. They are: To undertake all legal surveys required by the Department of Mines and Resources, including the Northwest and Yukon territories, National paries, ordnance lands and Indian reserves, and the legal surveys required by other government departments; to maintain the central office for indexing, filing and recording survey returns and plans of the surveys and engineering branch and supplying information from them; to compile and prepare from existing base maps or from published maps, electoral maps and general maps for use of the various government departments, air navigation maps, natural resource and railway maps, general maps of Canada and all types of maps except topographic made from original field surveys; and to print maps and charts, to distribute all departmental maps except those relating to mines and geology. Roughly those are the functions which are carried on by the subdivision covered by this vote.


John Ritchie MacNicol: May I ask the minister why there is such a large increase, amounting to approximately S10,000, in the provision for temporary service in this branch of his department?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed by the director that certain maps had to be prepared in connection with the trans-Canada air service and that there are temporary employees engaged for that work, which, I take it, largely accounts for the increase in temporary assistance from S1.980 to $12,010.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But these estimates become effective only on the first day of April next.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is what it is for.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It cannot be for past expenditure.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that they have started the work already. I do not know how they are being paid at the moment.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is a prohibition against it in the statute.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I certainly hope we are not violating any statute.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister knows that the statement made to him a moment ago by the director could not be possible within the law; that is, this could not be for work which has already commenced. These estimates have no applicability to anything until the first day of April, 1938, unless we vote money for governor general's warrants or matters of that kind. If this work is undertaken to be paid for out of a vote to be

made, it is against the statute in that case made and provided, under which there must be an appropriation before the work can be undertaken unless there is a governor general'6 warrant for it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: From the information I get from the director I think perhaps the Department of Transport advanced a certain amount of money.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Out of unforeseen expenses, probably.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Probably; I do not know out of what vote it comes, but it is from that money that the staff presently engaged are being paid.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The trans-Canada airways is a separate entity, and there was provision with respect to its capital being advanced to pay for services rendered by the government. That might be the position.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That may be the position.


John Ritchie MacNicol: In connection with all these items which refer to temporary assistance and wages the hon. member for Lincoln made the statement earlier in the day that the total was approximately half a million dollars. I have not made the total to be much over $100,000, but that is a good deal of money. In reference to what the minister said earlier in the afternoon, namely that the civil service commission selects those who are to perform the temporary service, I should like to ask a further question. If that is the case, there must have been a tremendous number of jobs advertised by the civil service commission. I have seen some jobs advertised, but nothing like the number that this provision for temporary service would call for. So I ask the minister: Are jobs which come under the heading of temporaiy assistance advertised and the successful applicants selected by the civil service commission?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; but I might point out to my hon. friend that the temporary assistance referred to here might refer to civil servants who have been temporary for eight or ten years. That is, the employees have been in the service under a temporary classification and not in the permanent service.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That avoids superannuation difficulties.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. As a matter of fact, I think there is a margin maintained in all the departments.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I believe there is a regulation covering the permanent and temporaiy employees in all the departments.

Supply-National Defence


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is eighty to twenty, I believe.


Grote Stirling: To what extent has the public supported this mapmaking service? To what extent does the public purchase the maps, either by single copies, by the hundred or by the thousand, for use of societies and so on?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that we get about eighty or ninety orders a day for maps, and a small charge is made. Personally I think a charge should be made for every map which goes out, and, for that matter, for most reports which go out from government departments as well. Probably it would curb a little the demand that comes from certain quarters for maps and government reports of one kind and another. I think the principle is sound, and I may say here that it is one the application of which we hope to extend in this department.


Grote Stirling: Has the minister any figures as to the revenue over the last few years? Is it increasing?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that from the distribution of maps we receive between $8,000 and $9,000 a year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
General-Book of Remembrance, $10,000.
Frank Exton Lennard: Would the minister tell us just what progress has been made with the book of remembrance?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The agreement, approved by order in council, P.C. 865, of April 23, 1937, entered into with James Purves, heraldic artist, illuminator and designer, for the executing and completion of the book of remembrance expires on March 31, 1939. On that date the committee confidently expect the book to be complete in every detail, and ready for dedication in the memorial chamber.
On May 15, 1938, a total of 66,900 names will have been inscribed by hand on the vellum pages of the book. This will represent the total number of names to be inscribed.
The committee are satisfied with the illumination which is being done on the written pages; and with the progress which the artist is making in connection with the illumination being done on the dedicatory and other pages.
The boards for the cover of the book are prepared and the leather is on order.
The chief binder, public archives of Canada, who has given much time and thought to the
question of binding the book, assures the committee that the book can be properly and permanently bound at public archives.
The final recommendation of the committee with respect to reproducing the book will be submitted for approval within ten days' time.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The hon. gentleman said 1937.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. That is, the first agreement entered into in 1932 was for a period of five years.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I thought so. We made an agreement for five years. The work was not completed in five years, and last year a further agreement was made to carry it forward until 1939.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is quite correct.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Will copies of this book be made for distribution or sale to the public?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think the hope is that copies will be available for public institutions throughout the provinces.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Those will be photographic copies, as I understand it?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, and a reproduction copy will be available.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Departmental administration, $190,070.
Hon. P. J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Chairman, this covers the
administration of the offices of the Minister of Public Works, the deputy minister, the purchasing agent, and the secretary of the department. The increase of $12,000 is mostly accounted for by the restoration of the five per cent cut, and statutory increases and promotions in the department. There are just a few new appointments.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Just a few? .


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Not very many


John Ritchie MacNicol: I should like to ask a question, but if this is not the proper time I shall not go ahead with it. I should like to learn from the minister the routine between the Department of Public Works and the Post Office Department with reference to the moving of a post office from one situation to another. I have in mind something about which I wired the minister just before leaving for the coronation, namely the removal of a post office on St. Clair avenue west, Toronto, from ward 6 to ward 5. The information I
Supply-Public Works

got at that time was that it was on recommendation from the Post Office Department to the Department of Public Works that the work was being done. Is this the proper time to ask the question? Is this the item under which an order for the removal of a post office from one position to another may be discussed?


Richard Bedford Bennett: The patronage committee, I would think.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Generally speaking, we
follow the recommendation of the Post Office Department when they contend that the space allotted to them is not sufficient, or the building is not a proper one. Of course that is a general statement, but we must remember that the case mentioned by the hon. member is also very general. If he would give me further detail, I should be only too happy to give him all the information he wishes when we are considering the estimates at a later date. Probably he will indicate to me the special case he has in mind.


Mr. PELLETIER:: Would the minister explain the provision of 83,000 for travelling expenses?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: That amount covers the travelling expenses of the officers of the main office in Ottawa, including the deputy minister, the assistant to the deputy minister, and other officers of the branch headed by the minister. As I said a minute ago, the item covers the minister's office, and those of the deputy minister, the assistant deputy minister, the purchasing agent and the secretary of the department. It happens that the officers of these different branches have to travel, and that item covers it. I regret I have not the full particulars, but I shall have them later on. My idea was simply to call an item in the department.


René-Antoine Pelletier: So we may take it to mean that in addition to this amount, there are other travelling expenses in the department.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes; for example, there are travelling expenses in the architects' branch, the chief engineer's branch, the telegraph branch, and others. These travelling expenses are enumerated under the different items, and when we reach them we will give the details. As I pointed out earlier, these travelling expenses relate more particularly to the offices of the minister and the deputy minister.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: In the item I notice
what would appear to be a departure from or innovation in the practice of the department. So far as I know, for the first time there appears in the estimates an item of

S3.300, for a clerk of tenders. I had not known of any such official in that department in the past, and I should like to know if this is a new departure. If so, what reasons have prompted the change? I know the minister appreciates the importance of this matter. A great many tenders are invited by the Department of Public Works, through advertising. The tenders come in sealed. In the past they have been left in the custody of the secretary, the deputy minister or some other official of the department. When (he time arrived for the opening of tenders, those who had tendered were invited, and had a right to be present when the tenders were opened. I know that was true in the last few years, and I assume it is a practice which has continued under the present ministry.
Formerly there was no clerk of tenders, and I am wondering why it is thought necessary at this time to make the appointment, and to set up a new office. To cover the whole matter, and to save time when he is answering, the minister might tell us whether the clerk of tenders is a new appointee, whether he is appointed by the civil service commission, whether he was in the employ of the department before, and who he is.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I regret that at this time, for the reasons I have set out, I am not in a position to give the hon. member all these details. The position is new, but the man occupying it is a former employee of the department. He was in the service, and this is just a change of title which has been given to a man already in the service. If my memory serves me correctly, his name is Rivard. At all events I shall not insist upon passing the item at this time because I realize that it is important to have the information.
As regards the practice mentioned by the hon. member, of permitting contractors to be present when tenders are opened, may I reply that the practice still prevails in the department. All contractors are always welcome. In fact, either the contractors or their representatives are always present when tenders are opened. The practice followed in the time of the hon. member is still pursued.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I am glad to hear that, because there is nothing more necessary than to establish in the public mind a confidence in the reception and disposition of tenders in a department such as the Department of Public Works. I am sure the minister appreciates the importance of what I say.
Mr, CARDIN:	In many instances it is a
protection for the minister.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I am going to ask the
minister to permit the item to stand, and

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when it comes up again I should like to have full information on the points upon which I have asked for information, and in relation to this whole innovation. As I said, I should like to have the reasons for it, the effect of it, why it is thought necessary and how it is thought it will improve the practice which has heretofore existed. It seemed to me that all precautions were taken and everything done to satisfy the public in connection with tendering, and I should like to have full information as to why it is thought necessary to have a clerk of tenders.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I quite agree with that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister might also give us such information as he has regarding the appointment of a purchasing agent. The previous government had in mind the establishment of a central purchasing authority, such as we had a long time ago and which sa/ed us hundreds of thousands of dollars. The sale of material was another matter that gave all of us a good deal of difficulty. Perhaps the minister will inform us whether any effort has been made, and if so to what extent, to unify and simplify the matter of purchases by the various departments, because there will be a great deal said as we proceed, especially in connection with one department.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The item might stand.
Item stands.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
Departmental administration, including amount required to pay allowances to typists, grade 1, employed cutting stencils, in accordance with regulations approved by order in council, $553,020.
Richard Bedford Bennett: I take it that the minister does not expect to pass this item but just wants to discuss it.


Hon. C. G. POWER (Acting Postmaster General):: I would be quite willing to pass the item if the committee has no objection.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We would hesitate to deprive the minister of an opportunity to talk about his own item.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Could we have some information as to the large increase in the number of employees?


Charles Gavan Power: The committee will notice that there is a decrease in the total item. There is an increase in the staff from 132 in 1937-38 to 150 this year. This is the report:
Additional positions provided in 1938-39 estimates:
Departmental administration-18.
2	stenographers, grade 3 (office of deputy postmaster general).
Additional assistance being required, two positions of stenographer, grade 3 were approved by the civil service commission, and authorized by order in council. The commission then issued promotion certificates on behalf of two permanent employees.
3	stenographers, grade 2 (administrative services) .
2 stenographers, grade 1 (1 in administrative services; 1 in equipment and supply branch).
1 clerk, grade 2 (administrative services).
4	clerks, grade 1 (administrative services).
4	typists, grade 1 (administrative services).
1 packer and helper (equipment and supply branch).
1 office boy (administrative services).
These positions were approved by the civil service commission and authorized by order in council to provide for the permanent appointment through the commission of temporary employees of the same class in the branches named when the restriction on permanent appointments were removed by order in council.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Has there been any reorganization of the service?


Charles Gavan Power: Some temporaries were made permanent.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I mean an internal reorganization of the department.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not think so.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Has there been an increase in the service through air mail or anything of that kind?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I was just going to direct the attention of the Minister of Mines and Resources to page 165 of the estimates where he will find a map draughtsman at $1,800. I told him before that I thought there was another draughtsman somewhere but I could not give it to him at the time. This map draughtsman in the Post Office Department would seem to be a duplication of his heroic effort to minimize duplication.


Charles Gavan Power: The explanation I have just received is that that draughtsman does not draw geographical maps.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am told that there are political maps.


Charles Gavan Power: My information is that he draws maps of machinery, but perhaps that may have some connection with politics.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I do not know whether the minister cares to proceed beyond this one item to-night, but there is some information I should like to obtain and I was wondering if I should wait until the Postmaster General returns.


Charles Gavan Power: If my hon. friend would ask the questions, they would be on Hansard.
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Abraham Albert Heaps: I would prefer to wait until his return.


Mr. THOMPSON:: I notice there is an amount of $4,080 for a private secretary and then an additional allowance of $600 for the same purpose.


Charles Gavan Power: For many years the arrangement has been that when a private secretary has been in the permanent civil service he retains whatever salary he received and receives an additional allowance of $600 for acting as private secretary. These items do not mean that he receives $600 in addition to the S4.0S0; it means simply that he receives the $600 in addition to his regular salary in the department.


Thomas Alfred Thompson: Are these private secretaries still taken care of when the government changes after they have served for three years?


Charles Gavan Power: So far as I remember, the Civil Service Act was amended in 1934 or 1935.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It was amended before the late government came into office.


Charles Gavan Power: I was referring to the last amendment. Prior to 1930 a private secretary who had acted as such for a year was privileged to obtain a position in the permanent service of the government at a salary not less than that paid to a principal clerk, or chief clerk, I just forget which. In 1934 the Civil Service Act was amended to provide that before a private secretary could obtain that privilege he would be obliged to serve three years in that capacity. I believe that is the situation at the present time.


Frank Exton Lennard: Will the minister tell us why this department has to have an " artist, lantern slides?" I was always under the impression that this was all handled by the Department of Trade and Commerce.


Charles Gavan Power: That is for publicity purposes. I imagine that a good part of his work would be in connection with the campaign which is put on during the Christmas season, " Post your mail early " and matters of that kind. One frequently sees sketches made by men who are in the habit of putting on lantern slides in the moving pictures.


Mr. BETTS:: Who does the necessary
repairs to the various post offices?


Charles Gavan Power: That is done by the Public Works department.


Frederick Cronyn Betts: That being the case, what is the necessity for a mechanical engineer, a senior engineer and an assistant mechanical engineer?


Charles Gavan Power: That would be in connection with machines used in post office work.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Will the minister explain the item for supervisor for rest room; where is this rest room, and for whom is it in operation? Is it for employees or visitors?


Charles Gavan Power: There are between four and five hundred women employees in the department at Ottawa, and a rest room has been placed at their disposal just as there are rest rooms in every building in which there are a number of departmental employees. The position of supervisor of rest room was created to look after that.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Has the minister a rest room in his department?


Charles Gavan Power: So far as the minister is concerned, he works all the time. I do not know what the staffs do, but I shall inquire.


William Allen Walsh: This is another item showing in a certain part a very substantial increase-


Charles Gavan Power: A decrease.


William Allen Walsh: No; an increase. In
administration there is an increase from $278,060 to $298,520, represented by increase in staff. I assume the volume of business going through the Post Office Department has considerably increased during the past year, necessitating that increase in staff.


Charles Gavan Power: That can be accounted for in two ways. First, there is $11,012 which covers the five per cent deduction. As will be remembered, when other departments have been in supply it has been explained that the comparison with last year's estimates is not quite accurate in that last year, when the main estimates were brought down no provision was made for the five per cent deduction. The estimates came down with the five per cent deduction off all salaries, and later on, during the course of the session, a supplementary estimate was brought down whereby the five per cent was restored. But it was restored in a lump sum and not attributed to the particular departments to which it applied. Therefore, in comparing the $253,000 with the $273,000 one must take account of the salary deduction of $11,000 odd. In other words, there is a difference of approximately $9,000, which is accounted for by the eighteen extra employees whom I mentioned a moment ago; and the fact that the revenue of the post office has increased by $1,300,000, as compared with last year, would account for the increase.

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Abraham Albert Heaps: I ought to voice a protest
against this method of bringing down the post office estimates. Two years ago, when the estimates of this department were brought before us, there was a lengthy discussion in the committee regarding the manner in which the department submitted its estimates. I am not disputing the accuracy of the estimates, but the idea was that anyone examining the estimates as they have been submitted and are now being submitted cannot tell what they mean. One does not know what the estimates in themselves indicate; no one can get from them anything definite except that the expenditures estimated for the coming year are so many millions of dollars. Possibly there is a little more business than there was last year, but in the discussion we had in this chamber in the session of 1936 the Postmaster General gave an undertaking to the committee that in submitting future estimates he would bring down a statement of the sort which is submitted by any business executive to the shareholders of a company. In these estimates as we have them we can get no idea of what the business of the post office was for the past year or what it is likely to be for the coming year. We cannot tell from the estimates whether the department has made a profit or has been running at a loss. All we are asked to do is to vote the estimates in the absence of any substantial information. I should like to know why the the undertaking given by the Postmaster General two years ago has not been carried out, namely, that in subsequent years we should have a proper statement from which we might get a better understanding of the operations of the department.


Charles Gavan Power: The hon. member will find
a great improvement in the manner in which the estimates arS presented this year as compared with last year. Last year there were two items for the whole business of the post office; this year there will be found at least seven or eight. This year, under the item which we are now considering, departmental administration, there are given complete details of the persons employed in departmental administration. Last year that was all bulked, and it was impossible for members of the committee to ascertain exactly what w'as being done. I am familiar with the hon. gentleman's criticism. He would like the Post Office Department to give a profit and loss statement as any business would do. After all, this is one of the largest departments of public business, and he would like to have a statement of profit and loss showing rentals, cost of carrying mails, newspapers and so on. Do 1 understand that to be what the hon. gentleman has in mind?


Abraham Albert Heaps: More or less.


Charles Gavan Power: I can give that to some
extent. A condensed comparative summary of the revenue of the Post Office Department and expenditure for the year ended March 31, 1937, and that estimated for the year 1938 will show: Revenue, postage stamps, cards, etc., sold for 1936-37: 828,179.322.60; estimated for 1937-38: S28.720.000. Postage paid in cash, 1936-37: S10.203,389.06; estimated for 1937-38: $10,882,000. All other revenue, 1936-37, S2.798,854.69; estimated 1937-38, $2,97S,500. The gross revenue for 1936-37 is S41,181,566.35, and the estimated revenue for 1937-38 is 842,580.500. Deductions from revenue, 1936-37, postmasters' commissions and allowances, 86,384,055.93; discount to stamp vendors, special deliveries, transit charges and so forth, $522,958.42; making a total for 1936-37 of 86,907,014.35. 1937-38 estimates: Deductions from revenue, postmasters' commissions and allowances, S6,738,700; discounts to stamp vendors, special deliveries, transit charges, etc., 8561,300; making an estimated total for 1937-38 of 87,300,000. Expenditures : 1936-37: Salaries, 816,187,668.62; mail service 813.526,697.60; miscellaneous, 8830,209.05; total of 830,538,575.27; 1937-38: Salaries, 87,448,938; mail service, $13,944,415; miscellaneous, 8850,000; total, $32,243,378. 193637: Excess of revenue over outside services, $3,735,973; for 1937-38, 83,037,122.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Is that the net post office estimated profit for the ensuing year?


Charles Gavan Power: No. Next are the Public Works department charges. Although this is only a bookkeeping entry it is about $2,700,000. Rental value of post office space, including char service, fuel and light, amounts to S2,750,000.


Richard Bedford Bennett: WThat is the net result?


Charles Gavan Power: I wish to give just a few other items if my right hon. friend will permit me. We make an estimate of some credit items which should be given to us: Credit for franking privilege, 81,122,676; credit for the operation of the savings bank, SSO.OOO. So that the surplus as given is $3,037,122.


Mr. BARBER:: Does that include repairs to buildings?


Charles Gavan Power: Repairs to buildings are all done by the Public Works department. I should imagine that the public works charge is all-inclusive, because I see here it includes
Supply-Post Office

char service, fuel and light; it also includes charges for repairs, furniture and all that kind of thing which goes into the work of the post office.


Abraham Albert Heaps: That does not answer the question I asked at first. Although the minister has given us the figures as the department has them, I do not see any good reason why a properly prepared statement in the form of an actual balance sheet of the utility as such, could not be submitted to the committee. I do not believe any hon. member, by cursorily listening to the figures just submitted by the acting Postmaster General, can make out what these figures really mean. He tells us there is a profit of something over a million dollars.


Charles Gavan Power: A surplus of 83,037,122.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Is that after deducting the amount which the Department of Public Works charges for the use of buildings?


Charles Gavan Power: No.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Well, then, the profit is not quite as large as is suggested by the acting Postmaster General. He has given us the credit side of the balance sheet; but he has forgotten to put down some of the debit items, one of which I shall mention at once. The Post Office Department obtains each year an enormous revenue from stamps which really should not be credited to that department.


Mr. POWERS:: On cheques.


Abraham Albert Heaps: On cheques, yes. All stamps used for excise purposes which go to the revenue of the post office should be credited to the revenue of some other department. It is almost impossible to ascertain the value of the stamps which are used each year in Canada for excise purposes. If that were put against the credit items enumerated by the minister this evening, it would be extremely difficult to say whether the post office is operating at a profit or at a loss. Even with the opportunity of examining the figures as submitted by the post office we are unable to say whether it is making a profit. I am anxious that the post office, which is perhaps the largest utility operating in the dominion, should be carried on in the same manner as any well conducted enterprise would be; and it seems to me that the minister, instead of submitting the series of figures which have been presented this evening, should present a proper balance sheet each year showing the exact amount of the revenues, from what sources they have been derived, the expenditures, what they are for, and a comparison

with previous years. I had expected that, as this matter was discussed in this chamber at considerable length a couple of years ago and the Postmaster General gave an undertaking that such a course would be followed, within a period of two years the post office would be able to adjust itself to that new form of bookkeeping which we were led to believe they would give to the committee, and I do not understand why after this lapse of time it is not forthcoming. Could the minister inform us what stands in the way of the presentation of a proper statement in the form of a balance sheet, whereby at a moment's glance hon. members would know how the post office had been operating during the past twelve months and what would be the estimated expenditures and revenues for the ensuing year? Can the minister give us any assurance that next year something of the sort can be submitted to us, we having waited already for two years?


Richard Bedford Bennett: If the hon. member will turn to the auditor general's report, Post Office Department, part P 2, and read the thirty pages between pages 2 and 32, he will find the information he seeks. But what I cannot understand is why we could not in these estimates detail the revenues and expenditures with as much particularity as they are in the auditor general's report. The report of the auditor general gives a complete statement of the revenues of the Post Office Department for the year ended March 31, 1937. In volume I there is a broad statement of it; but in volume II, which I hold in my hand, are the details. According to the auditor general, the Post Office Department for the year ended March 31, 1937, had a gross revenue of 841,181,566.35. To earn that gross revenue it was necessary to make expenditures out of the revenue as received, and those expenditures which are also stated at page 2 covered rent allowances, commissions, discounts, postage on parcels to other countries, indemnities, etc., showing a total of 86,907,014.35. The difference between that sum and the gross revenue to which I have just referred amounts to 834,274,552, being the total of net postal revenue for the year. Then follow the particulars of the expenditures made. And at page 32 of the auditor general's report there is the complete detail- that is complete under large headings-of what is on the thirty pages before that, showing that the total expenditures of the department were S31.906.272.05. Now the difference between that sum and 834.274,552, it will be observed, is something like 82,300.000. That

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is the auditor general's report. Why the Post Office Department should show a different statement here this evening I do not know.


Charles Gavan Power: 
Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes; that is the correct figure according to the auditor general's report, but that is not the figure the minister gave this evening. I assume that was through error, because he was dealing with the sum he has just mentioned together with another sum which should not have been included.


Charles Gavan Power: I might recapitulate: Excess of revenue, S3.735,976.73-and here perhaps is where the difference comes in-headquarters administration and contingencies, $1,341,756, leaving a net surplus of $2,394,220.73. I am informed that the dominion government does not take into consideration the overhead, which would be represented by headquarters administration and contingencies. That would perhaps be the explanation, although I do not think it will satisfy my right hon. friend.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The auditor general's report we know to be accurate, because it is vouched for by the production of documents. What the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Heaps) said, and what I desire to support him in, is that we were to have before us not a statement such as we have now but a statement in connection with the post office estimates which would show the contemplated revenue from all sources, and the contemplated expenses broken up in much the same form as they are broken up here. In the estimates presented to us they are broken up, but not broken up under headings such as you find on page 32 of the auditor general's report. For instance, civil government, at Ottawa and outside; then travelling expenses amounting to $70,000; general expenses, materials, supplies, repairs, etc., $357,000; printing and stationery, $454,000. Then there is other outlay, that is payments to the rail companies for handling mail and to the air lines and steamship companies, and finally you have the total under the words "total expenditure," amounting to $31,906,272.05.
What the hon. member for Winnipeg North is seeking is that there should be in these estimates, as I believe it was understood there would be for the year 1938, a record indicating the contemplated revenues, not in detail of course but under the broad headings used in the auditor general's report. It is necessary to have that 'before one can arrive at any idea as to what the net revenue will be, because from the gross revenue derived from sale of stamps, etc., one has to deduct the amount which has to be spent immediately
for the purpose of earning that money, namely, transport and matters of that kind. That leaves a balance. Then there was some additional casual revenue represented by $3,470.76 and fines and forfeitures, $171. The broad general statement will be found in volume I of the auditor general's report, Post Office Department. I say that because it has always been thus under all governments. Do not for a moment think that I am charging this administration with having done anything that was not done by previous governments. I am not suggesting that for a moment.


Charles Gavan Power: I have not suggested that as an alibi, either.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No, but that would come presently-


Charles Gavan Power: No, I thought of it a long time ago.


Richard Bedford Bennett: -in fact immediately if I resumed my seat. But I desire to point out that all that is sought is something which is not new in this house. When the present acting minister was sitting on this side I can recall the unpleasant hours that the then Postmaster General spent waiting anxiously for a Friday night on which the call went out, "Night or Blucher." Very often it used to be both "night" and "Blucher." Under those circumstances it is nothing new when I say that successive governments have been grappling with that question. The hon. member for Winnipeg North put it up to the minister whether we could not make a statement something similar to this, perhaps not with so much detail, indicating our contemplated or expected revenues, the expenditures that we are appropriating, because the auditor general is bound to take the credits item by item and show what has happened to the money thus voted by parliament. The minister is quite right when he says that great objection was taken to that large item amounting to many millions in which everything was included, in other words, a basket item. That item was objectionable to this house, and that was the grievance urged by the hon. member for Winnipeg North upon the government I think two years ago, this government with a new mandate from the people to lower the tariff and increase the taxes. In that glorious day they were to give us all the information we sought and indicate so large a surplus that we might increase the salaries of the rural mail carriers and provide satisfactory jobs for all those who desire to displace Conservatives. My hon. friend the surveyor (Mr. Fafard) laughs, because I can see that he knows perfectly
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well, having mapped out the rural mail routes in his district, how great the difficulty is to provide for all these things in the manner that we anticipate before we get into office.


Charles Gavan Power: The manner to which our people are accustomed.


Richard Bedford Bennett: To which your people are accustomed; that may be. I suggest that it would not be difficult to show the relation of the contemplated expenditure to this contemplated revenue in the manner indicated. As the hon. member for Winnipeg North says, this is a utility. It stands on an entirely different basis from any other department.


Charles Gavan Power: On that point, without at all
wishing to draw a red herring across the trail, but by way of digression, may I make this statement, that in my own department I found that against certain items we could place a revenue item. For instance, for the vetcraft shops I am obliged to ask parliament for something like $72,000, whereas really there is income of something like $50,000 to set off against it. The net loss would be about $25,000. Something similar occurs with reference to the sick mariners' fund, as my right hon. friend knows. I tried to make some arrangement with the treasury board to show in the estimates that there is a revenue coming in. I suppose the principle would apply to some extent in connection with the matter we are now discussing. It would be an estimated income. But I was informed that though this is done in Great Britain-


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is right.


Charles Gavan Power: -that against the appropriation there is an estimated revenue, this has never been the practice in Canada; and for some reason, which frankly I have not been able to understand, we are not permitted to enter in our estimates proposed or estimated revenue.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The reason is that the money is paid direct to the consolidated revenue fund.


Charles Gavan Power: And it does not come into the department; but if my right hon. friend would permit me to say so, I know of a case where it is not done.


Richard Bedford Bennett: So do I.


Charles Gavan Power: Where it would not be done.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We might exchange confidences.


Charles Gavan Power: It is not a confidence. In the case of vetcraft, at the end of the year, or at a certain period of the year, when large sums of moneys are expended on poppies

and the returns from the poppy sales have not come in, the department runs very short of money, and in order to pay the salaries of the men employed in the vetcraft shops it would be necessary to obtain a governor general's warrant unless substantial sums were voted in the estimates prior to that time. But the money returns to the department. When the cheques come in from sales of poppies the money returns to the department. Perhaps that is a confidence, but I do not think so.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am not going to take up too much time on this matter, but I might point out to the minister that the auditor general's report shows the total of the postal revenue for the year and indicates the heads under which that revenue is received. Then he gives the total gross revenue and the disbursements that are made from revenue, in other words the money that is spent from day to day for the purpose of earning that revenue, and this is given under half a dozen heads. That, it seems to me, would be possible in our estimates without difficulty; it is just what the minister has in his estimates now, plus half a page, for instance, merely indicating the estimated revenue during the year, just as has been done by the auditor general in his report. In the one instance we have the exact revenue and in the other we would have merely the contemplated revenue.
There might be one difficulty about that, and it might be a very considerable difficulty. If it should be contemplated that the postal rate should be reduced from three to two cents, and it should appear in the estimates in that form, it would anticipate the budget and therefore might lead to some difficulty. The minister has succeeded in breaking the estimate up partly in comparison with what it has been in the past, but it seems to me there would not be much difficulty in breaking it up into those items into which the auditor general has divided it.


Charles Gavan Power: It is broken up to some extent, as my right hon. friend knows, in the main estimates, and in answer to a question asked by the hon. member for Winnipeg North I have given further details. I could go still further and give him an estimate of the revenue for the year 1938 under each heading, such as postage stamps, second-class matter, third-class matter, metered mail and 60 on.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is just what the hon. member says we were to have printed, rather than depend upon the statement of the minister.

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Charles Gavan Power: My right hon. friend has been of this much assistance to me-and possibly he has put his finger on the real reason why this is not stated in the estimates-that at some time or another it may be proposed by the Minister of Finance either to reduce or to increase the rate on mail, and it would be impossible for the Postmaster General to make any estimate without divulging that fact.


Richard Bedford Bennett: He gave up $800,000 on United States magazines without consulting us.


James Samuel Taylor: I am generally in accord with this desire to have a proper business accounting in the Post Office Department, but I heard the hon. member for Winnipeg North refer to rents as one of the expenditures made in carrying on the business of the post office. I should like to hear whether the hon. gentleman desires the rents on all post offices to be assessed and recorded, because, if so, I cannot see how that can be done on a purely utilitarian basis, which is the only basis on which it could possibly enter into the post office account.


Richard Bedford Bennett: As a matter of fact, it does not enter into it at all in the auditor general's report.


James Samuel Taylor: I am raising the question.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: The hon. member for Winnipeg North on several occasions has brought forward this same query. Evidently he desires, as I know other hon. members also desire, to know how far the Post Office Department pays its way, whether there is a surplus or a deficit.
There are two or three factors which must be taken into consideration in addition to those mentioned by the minister. For instance, a post office building is required. It is constructed by the Department of Public Works, out of moneys voted for that purpose. It is maintained by the Public Works department, no charge being made to the Post Office Department and no details of expenditure appearing in the accounts of that department. Then the building is heated, and the cost of heating is paid out of a vote under the Public Works department for the maintenance of public buildings. There is also furniture, which to a considerable extent is supplied in the same way, from a vote for furnishings and supplies for public buildings. So if the hon. member for Winnipeg North were to get all this information, which I think it would be impossible to obtain, I fancy he would find that the Post Office Department does not carry itself, does not pay its way. I do not think there is any doubt about that.


Charles Gavan Power: I am inclined to agree with my hon. friend. In those circumstances the Post Office Department could not carry itself. Then very probably there would be some contra accounts. Very often in a post office building there are offices occupied by the customs department or half a dozen other departments. I know in my own city the Department of National Defence has offices in the post office; the department of health, the Department of Public Works and the Department of Justice also have offices in that building. There are half a dozen departments with offices in the post office in Quebec city, and I should imagine that the same condition obtains in a great many other localities. So I think the accounting would be difficult; I think -the hon. member for Winnipeg North would admit that.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Yes; but I was under the impression that two years ago, when this matter was raised in the house, the Postmaster General undertook to obtain a proper accounting from the Public Works department, to find out what would be the rental value of all these buildings.


Charles Gavan Power: I should imagine that the figures I gave in response to the request of my hon. friend are those which the Postmaster General of the day agreed to obtain.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I think the minister is quite correct: I believe those figures which have been submitted to us to-night, amounting to about 82,750,000, were probably obtained as a result of negotiations between the Post Office Department and the Department of Public Works. I have always had a strenuous objection to the way in which our post office buildings have been built. The Department of Public Works builds post offices, and then says to the Post Office Department, "Here are some buildings for you whether you wan'-them or whether you do not."


Charles Gavan Power: Oh, no.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Oh, yes. I make that definite statement, knowing the facte in one particular case, where a post office was erected for the Post Office Department, which post office that department did not want. I believe that is not the only case of that kind, because in the past post offices have been erected without any request on the pant of the postal authorities, and I believe we had the promise last year or the year -before that that state of affairs would be rectified. I hope it has been, and I hope that in the future no post office will be ereoted in any part of the Dominion of Canada unless it is at the request of the postal authorities themselves. It is quite

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possible that if the Post Office Department were to have the say in the erection of these post offices this item of $2,750,000 might be considerably less. I do not know whether there has been any experience during the past twelve months, but perhaps the minister might say whether during thait time the Post Office Department have been asked to take over buildings, for which no requests have come in from that department itself.


Charles Gavan Power: I am informed that there
have not been, so far as we know. In any case, I shall be very glad to transmit the hon. member's observations to the Post Office Department. Meanwhile I would ask that the item stand.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I should like to ask a question with respect to practice in the department. Last summer postal station L on St. Clair avenue, at the comer of Appleton and St. Clair, was moved from that location to a point about 500 feet east, on the opposite side of the street, from one ward to another. Through what means was that move made?


Charles Gavan Power: I am informed that this discussion might more properly come under another item, namely the item respecting salaries and other expenses, staff and so on.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: What number was the
last one?


Charles Gavan Power: We are now on item No. 257. I would suggest that the discussion of the matter would come under item No. 25S.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is satisfactory.
Item stands.



DEPARTMENT OP MINES AND RESOURCES

[Stage Direction]
Lands, parks and forests branch-branch administration, $23,460.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: Mr. Chairman, this branch of the Department of Mines and Resources comes under the head of lands, parks and forests branch, and I believe I might briefly outline to the committee the functions of this particular branch. In the first place, it has to do with the government of the northwest territories.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is this the only item respecting the northwest territories?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The item called is not. I am just giving a brief survey of the work of the branch. It has to do with the government of the northwest territories, and that is again subdivided into the eastern arctic and western arctic divisions. It

has also to do with the government of the Yukon territory. Likewise, the branch is engaged in what is known as the dominion forest service. It is true that the forest lands are all owned by the provinces; but as hon. members will recall, the federal government has several forest experimental stations, and the administration of these come under this branch.
Then, there are forest products laboratories, one of which is in British Columbia, another in Ottawa and another, more definitely related to the pulp and paper industry, in the city of Montreal. Then, there is the matter of land registry. All the ordnance lands, admiralty lands and public lands, indeed, all the lands of the federal government which are not directly administered by other departments, such as the Department of National Defence, are administered by the Department of Mines and Resources, and come under the direction of this branch.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Under this item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; I am just giving a general survey. We shall come back to particulars in a minute. In addition, there is the administration of national parks in Canada. I believe at the present time there are about twenty of them. Likewise, there is the administration of the Migratory Birds Convention Act. This briefly summarizes the work of the particular branch whose estimate we are about to consider.
Item No. 135 has to do with branch administration, including such matters as the salary of the director, and his immediate assistants. Indeed, it might be described as a sort oi head office item for this branch of the department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Government of the northwest territories- general administration, operation, maintenance and improvement of services, including Wood buffalo park, $245,320.
Grote Stirling: Would the minister give an account of the reindeer experiment?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The reindeer experiment appears to be working out satisfactorily. The herd is now more than 4,000 in number, and each fall a certain number are being slaughtered. The meat is distributed to some of the schools and hospitals at Aklavik, and also to the natives. I understand the skins are also utilized by the natives for clothing. From the information we have received so far, I believe that as the years go by the experiment will prove a very useful contribution to the natives of that region.

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Some consideration is being given to getting the Eskimos interested in small reindeer herds of their own, so that they may be used, as in Lapland, as beasts of burden. The economy of Lapland I am told is largely dependent upon the reindeer, and I think it is possible that this might be repeated among our Eskimos in the north. To the extent that we succeed, we are making them more selfreliant and able to fend for themselves. At the present time the experiments look promising. A few Eskimo boys are being trained as herdsmen, and are being taught how to look after these animals.


Grote Stirling: Are the reindeers being protected? Is the Eskimo permitted to hunt them?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; at the present time the reindeer are herded, and they are under supervision.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The journey has been completed, has it not?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Richard Bedford Bennett: How many are there now?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I stated a moment ago there were something over 4,000.


Mr. NEEDHAM:: Could the minister give us a report on the buffalo that were returned to the range around Fort Vermilion? I believe they were taken from the buffalo park at Wainwright some years ago.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They appear to be doing quite well. Those buffalo are partly in the northwest territories and partially in the extreme northern part of Alberta. It is very difficult to get an accurate census of the buffalo, but as nearly as the park wardens can estimate there are upwards of 8,000.


Joseph Needham: Are they drifting south
at all?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I suppose they overrun the boundaries of the park at times, but the park is very large and contains suitable pasturage. It is really the natural habitat of these animals. There are some wood buffalo there and as a matter of fact they do not tend to migrate to the south. I suppose if the herd were to increase to 100,000 or so, they would overrun the greater part of Alberta.


Harry James Barber: I notice there is an increase from $32,000 to $49,000 in supplies and materials; could the minister explain this increase?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There would be medical supplies, additional food and fuel and equip-51952-464
ment for the medical officers and provisions for the destitute. I notice that that particular item is $10,000.


Harry James Barber: That would make up the increase?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not altogether. There are years when the fur catch is quite light and the authorities say that at the present time we are in a low fur cycle. Under these circumstances the Indians, the Eskimos and the half-breeds have to be assisted and the requirements are greater. Only a week or so ago I had a telegram from a party who had just returned from Aklavik who painted a rather dark picture of conditions there. I do not think they are quite as bad as reported, but there is no doubt that the shortage of fur has a bearing upon the amount of supplies and relief necessary to be sent into the north country.


Harry James Barber: That explanation would also cover the increase in the amount for hospitalization?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It would have a bearing upon that. When the natives are poorly nourished they are more susceptible to disease and there are more calls on our hospital accommodation.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I notice the hotels and shops in different parts of Canada have been selling buffalo meat, and I should like to know if there is any revenue from this sale.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There would be none in connection with the Wood Buffalo park in northern Alberta. Over 2.000 buffalo were slaughtered this year at Wainwright and Elk island. I think there were something like
5.000	or 6.000 in the Wainwright park alone. The park was overstocked, and it was a question of either extending the area and spending a good deal of money on fences, or reducing the herd by slaughter. It was considered that about 4,000 buffalo were sufficient for the purposes for which the park was created, and the surplus animals were slaughtered and the meat sold. The hides from this slaughter have been sold. The revenue derived from these sales will go into the consolidated revenue fund. While I am on this point I might direct the attention of hon. members to page 10 of the report of the Department of Mines and Resources where will be found a statement of the revenue turned into the consolidated revenue fund by the department for the fiscal year ended March 31 last.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is set out in the auditor general's report.
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Alfred Johnson Brooks: Have any buffalo been sold to parks in the United States or in other parts of the world?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: A couple of years ago a small shipment of half a dozen was sent to Germany, but there are no sales made.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Has the question of
whether the Eskimo is an Eskimo or an Indian been decided yet?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: That
question is before the supreme court.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have been urging my colleague, the Minister of Justice, to secure a decision on that matter as quickly as possible as we are a little at controversy with the province of Quebec.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Has the case been
argued?


Ernest Lapointe: No.


Mr. FAIR:: Is the buffalo meat sold by tender or by other negotiations?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: By advertised tender.


Howard Charles Green: What is the population of the northwest territories?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Approximately 1,500 white people, 4,000 Indians and 5,000 Eskimos.


Howard Charles Green: How is that population divided between the two districts?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The greater number is in the Mackenzie river country. There are very few Indians in the eastern arctic, the population being principally Eskimos.


Mr. PERLEY:: Who was the successful tenderer this year for the buffalo meat? This meat was on sale in nearly all the towns in Saskatchewan.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Burns and Company. I
am informed, were the highest tenderers and got the meat and the hides also.


Robert Fair: How many tenders were received for the buffalo meat?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I believe there were two,
but I cannot recall at the moment the other tenderer. Both, however, were from packing companies.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Are the Eskimos of Canada self-supporting, or are they quite a burden on the Canadian government?


Richard Bedford Bennett: We have given them
relief steadily during the last few years.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In the western arctic,
broadly speaking west of Hudson bay, in the

Mackenzie river country, they are pretty well self-supporting; they do not require a great deal of assistance from the government. Unfortunately, that is not the case to the same degree in the eastern arctic, and it is the eastern arctic that constitutes the main burden of relief so far as the Eskimos are concerned.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: There is an item of
854,810 for hospitalization, professional and other services, grants to schools, assistance to industrial homes; and for the year 193738 the amount was 851,460. Could the minister give the detailed expenditures under this item last year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There has been some increase in pupils in the schools, and that involves additional grants for educational work. There was an increase in the number of pupils in the school at Aklavik and there have been a few additional nurses who have been sent in for hospital work.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I did not make myself
quite clear. What I wanted was not so much an explanation of the way in which the money was to be expended as a detailed statement of the actual expenditures made- the amounts to various institutions and organizations, and so on.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The total amount estimated for this year for hospitals is S19,500, which is an increase of S2,500 over the previous year.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: What I am more interested in is a statement giving the details of the expenditure in the past year-to what organizations the money was paid and how it was expended.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not think I have that information in detail. There are hospitals. for instance, in the western arctic, at Fort Smith. Hay river and Fort Simpson. There are two at Aklavik, and in the eastern arctic, one at Chesterfield and one at Pangnirtung. The expenditures for these I gave a moment ago. The figure is S19.500, which is an increase as compared with last year. Then, there is maintenance of patients in provincial sanatoria and maintenance of those in provincial asylums. Individuals who become insane or become mental cases have to be sent out of the territory to institutions where they can be cared for. In this case they go to a provincial institution and their maintenance has to be taken care of. There is transportation of patients and there are other transportation charges, besides freight, cartage and express. At a score of points

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(here are schools which have to be maintained. The supplies for these schools and transportation of these supplies make up the item.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Can the minister give
any further details of the expenditure for the past year showing those to whom the amounts were paid?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not that information under my hand, but a note will be taken of the question and the information can be supplied.


Mr. MARTIN:: What proportion of the population of the northwest territories is white, and is there any demand on the part of that population for representation in this chamber?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are 1,500 whites, it is estimated.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is in the whole of the northwest territories?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; and so far I have not heard of any suggestion that they should be represented in parliament.


Paul Joseph James Martin: A bill was introduced into this house. These people are virtually disfranchised, and while the population is not large in comparison with the Yukon, it is not very small.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is smaller than in the Yukon. At any rate, so far as I am aware, during my period of office here no request of the kind has come. Since this question has been raised, it may be interesting to observe there is a probability of there being a substantial increase in the white population in the western arctic during the next few years. One of the most promising fields potentially for gold mining has been discovered north of Great Slave lake, eight hundred miles north of Edmonton. I visited that area last September. One mine is going into operation shortly, and another is in process of construction. From present indications it would appear that there is a possibility of a considerable mining development in that country. That, of course, will increase the population and create problems in administration. I may say for the information of the committee that this is now receiving the consideration of the officers in the department. We desire if possible to see ahead the problems that may arise and prepare as far as we can for them. While so far there has not been, to my knowledge, any request from that area for representation in this parliament, I should not be surprised if it did arrive within a few years.


Grote Stirling: How will supplies go in to that new field?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: North of Slave lake? Down the Athabaska river. It will go by railway from Edmonton to Waterways, which is the terminus of what I think is called the Northern Alberta railway.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is the old Alberta and Great Waterways.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The old Alberta and Great Waterways, now operated by the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian National. From Waterways by boat down to Fitzgerald; from Fitzgerald by portage for sixteen miles to Fort Smith; that is over the rapids on the Slave river.


Grote Stirling: No; but the minister is now describing the way in. I thought he spoke of a new field to the north, again, of this one.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; I am coming to that. From Fitzgerald to Smith on the Slave river; down the Slave river to Slave lake, and across Slave lake to these mining areas on the northern side.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Does the minister mean the Peace river instead of the Slave river?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; I am speaking about the Athabaska and Slave rivers. It may be of interest to the committee to have this information about the development which has taken place in that country. I should suppose that five years ago the total amount of freight moved from Waterways down the Athabaska river probably did not exceed 350 or 400 tons. Last year 22.000 tons of freight moved down this river.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I did not think it was under this item that transportation facilities to the north country would be discussed.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. M3r hon. friend is
quite right. It will come up under another item. I am merely giving the information in response to a question.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: I see that "sundries" have risen considerably, from $2,733 to $4,030. "Sundries" seem to be a place where considerable increases can be put in without exposing anything. Can the minister give details of how this larger amount has been made up?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is an unallotted vote; it is a sort of general blanket vote put in for contingencies. I stated a moment ago that a considerable development had tak'"- place

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in this territory. It is not possible to foresee every item of expense that may be required, and consequently we thought it wise to increase this sundries vote rather more than a thousand dollars so that we would have something to fall back upon in case there arose the need for expenditures that at the present moment cannot be foreseen. It is difficult to tell what may arise in a district which is eight hundred miles north of Edmonton, to say nothing of the distance it is from the capital of the dominion.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: That is quite all right, but the item considered as a percentage seems to be a large amount. Here we have an increase from $2,733 to $4,030, or nearly fifty per cent added to the amount expended last year under sundries. I think this item deserves more attention, and I should like to have a little more information about it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I suggest to the committee that an increase of $1,300 is not an unreasonable amount. Of course, $1,300 is $1,300.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: That is right. When one is talking in millions it does not mean much. I quite understand that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: But when one is talking of the development of a vast area of country it does not, I think, mean very much. I repeat that it is quite impossible to foresee every item or kind of expense that may arise in the next year; and we thought it wise-and I trust the committee will approve our judgment-to increase the item by the amount that my hon. friend has mentioned. After all, $1,300 is not very much when one considers the responsibilities that may arise there.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: I ask again,
Can we be given any idea of the principal items of which this vote will be made up? That is all. It is $1,300.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend is referring to the sundries item?


Harry Gladstone Clarke: Yes.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; I cannot at the moment. We may have an epidemic of smallpox, or measles, or something of the kind which will have to be looked after. It might be that a number of people will go crazy in that country and will have to be brought out to a mental institution. Any one of half a dozen things of that general sort might happen.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: It is too bad that the minister did not think of that last year when he brought down his estimates.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We may have erred last year.


Howard Charles Green: In the last few months there have been various statements by the premier of British Columbia to the effect that he was going to extend that province to include the Mackenzie river basin. Would the minister tell the committee whether there have been any negotiations with this end in view or negotiations of any kind dealing with the matter of that province taking over the Mackenzie river basin?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is, the extension of the boundaries to the arctic?


Howard Charles Green: Yes.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. I understand the
premier of British Columbia recently gave out a statement at some future date he was going to make that request to the federal government, but so far as I am aware he has made no official request to the government.


Howard Charles Green: There has been no request made to date?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In respect to the extension of the boundaries of eastern British Columbia to the arctic?


Howard Charles Green: Yes.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There was, of course, in respect to the Yukon.


Howard Charles Green: But there has been no request made in regard to the Mackenzie river district?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. It might have been
mentioned in a letter to the Prime Minister -I am not sure about that-but it has not been to me. I know that Mr. Pattullo made a statement the other day in Vancouver or somewhere else in British Columbia to the effect that he intended to request that the boundaries of the province should be extended to the arctic.


Howard Charles Green: There are no negotiations under way at the present time?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

Questions
Wednesday, February 23, 1938