[Stage Direction]
Mr. W. H. MOORE (Ontario) presented the third report of the standing committee on banking and commerce, together with a draft bill entitled, An Act respecting Interest on Small Loans.
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance): This is a very lengthy report. I suggest that inasmuch as no action is proposed to be taken on it to-day we might dispense with the reading of it and let it appear in the votes and proceedings.
Mr. STEVENS:: It is an excellent literary production. It ought to be heard by hon. members.


Mr. DUNNING:: There will be time to do that.



STANDING ORDERS-CONCURRENCE IN SECOND REPORT

[Stage Direction]
Mr. S. W. JACOBS (Cartier) moved that the second report of the standing committee on standing orders, presented to the house on May 31, be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. A. G. SLAGHT (Parry Sound) moved the first reading of Bill No. 130 (letter J-2 of the Senate), respecting the Mail Printing Company.
Mr. CAIIAN:: Explain.


Mr. SLAGHT:: Mr. Speaker, this is a bill to amend the act of incorporation of the Mail Printing Company, which was enacted in 1880. The only amendment proposed is the substitution of "one hundred thousand" for "thirty thousand" in the clause in the original bill which provides that real estate held by the corporation at any one time shall not exceed in annual value the sum of thirty thousand dollars. By reason of the increase in value since 1880 and the new premises acquired by this corporation, they find it desirable to have the annual value of the real estate that they may hold increased to one hundred thousand dollars.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 131, respecting the Globe Printing Company.-Mr. Slaght.
Bill No. 139, for the relief of Irene Thomas Smith.-Mr. Walsh.
Bill No. 140, for the relief of Sylvia Salzman Udashkin.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill	No.	141, for	the relief	of	William
Dougald Stanley Campbell.-Mr. White.
Bill	No.	142, for	the relief	of	Mildred
Varner MacLeod.-Mr. MacLean (Prince).

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. HYNDMAN:: 1.	How many hours. per week are actually worked by the chief engineer, or engineer in charge, during the heating season on buildings under the Public Works department?
2.	How many in the summer season during the "overhaul" of the plant?
3.	How many men come under this category?
4.	If on duty over the 44 hours per week specified in the civil service regulations and also by P.C. 670, 27th March, 1930, do they receive monetary compensation for overtime?
5.	Do they receive time in lieu therefor?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	48 hours.
2.	44 hours.
3.	18.
4.	No.
5.	Time in lieu is allowed for working over a 48-hour week in the heating season and a 44-hour week in the summer season.


Mr. HYNDMAN:: 1.	Have shift engineers and firemen on the heating staff of the Public Works department been working continuously for more than one week without receiving the 24 hours off weekly, in accordance with the Lord's Day Act, and also P.C. 1537, 7th September, 1925?
2.	If so, how many, and what periods were thus continuously worked during the heating season 1937-38 by each?
3.	Have these men received monetary compensation for such extra days?
4.	If not, have they received time in lieu thereof, and has such time been equitably arranged so as not to penalize by compelling them to work a predominant number of night shifts?

Questions


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) 44.
(b)
Name-Period continuously worked, 1937-38 W. J. Mclninch, February 21-March 5.
W. J. Mclninch, March 7-April 2.
R.	J. Gorman, November 1-November 13.
R.	J. Gorman, November 15-December 24.
R. J. Gorman, January 3-April 30.
F. Dumoulin, February 6-February 19.
T. J. Doyle. March 15-March 27.
J. Abbott, October 11-November 1.
J. D. Stratton, November 1-February 20.
J. D. Stratton, March 16-April 30.
J. F. Donoghue, January 3-January 15.
J. F. Donoghue, January 17-February 5.
C. J. Aubrey, October 22-December 5.
P. Farro, September 23-November 5.
P. Farro, January 27-February 9.
R. H. Russett, November 1-December 4.
R. H. Russett, February 7-February 26.
R.	H. Russett, February 28-March 12.
H. Groulx, October 11-November 6.
J. M. Jackson, November 1-November 20. H. J. Poaps, November 1-November 22.
W. E. Murray, September 15-November 18. E. Nunn, November 19-December 19.
E. Nunn, December 28-January 29.
E. Nunn, January 31-March 5.
E.	J. Caldwell, October 31-January 13.
F.	S. B. Murray, October 16-November 1.
F. S. B. Murray, November 4-November 20. F. S. B. Murray, November 22-December 11. F. S. B. Murray, December 13-January 8.
W. J. Hemphill, March 28-April 9.
W. J. Hemphill, April 25-May 9.
A. V. Wells, November 15-November 27. A. V. Wells, March 28-April 9.
F. Deavy, November 1-January 16.
F. Deavy, February 1-April 20.
M.	Brown, November 1-November 21.
W. S. Keating, November 1-November 19. W. S. Keating, February 6-February 18.
F. Moore, September 13-December 30.
AY. McLean, January 17-February 5.
W. McLean, April 18-May 8.
N.	Christian, January 27-February 21.
H. R. Clarke, November 1-January 12.
H. R. Clarke, January 14-February 7.
H. R. Clarke, February 25-March 9.
S.	G. Hawes, October 11-November 6.
S.	G. Hawes, January 26-March 7.
S. G. Hawes, April 23-May 8.
J. H. Hemphill, November 22-December 4. J. H. Hemphill, December 6-December 18.
J. H. Hemphill, December 20-January 1.
J. H. Hemphill, January 3-January 15.
J. J. McLarnon, October 4-November 23. 51852-21SJ
H. J. Newin, November 15-November 27.
H. J. Newin, November 29-December 11.
H. J. Newin, December 13-December 25.
H. J. Newin, December 27-January 8.
H. T. Parent, February 19-March 3.
F. G. Shepherd, September 16-November 5, R. G. AArhalen, October 15-November 21.
R. G. AVhalen, November 23-December 17. R. G. Whalen, December 19-January 2.
R. G. Whalen, February 8-February 25.
E. Deschenes, February 10-February 22.
T.	E. Leonard, October 13-November 2.
H.	Adams, January 15-January 27.
W. J. Bates. December 29-January 10.
E. Charron, April 2-April 14.
C. Graham, November 1-January 10.
C. Graham, January 23-March 14.
C. Graham, March 25-April 10.
W. Larkin, January 27-February 8.
AV. E. McBride, February 2-February 14.
E. Prindiville, January 31-February 27.
E. Prindiville, March 2-April 9.
E.	Prindiville, April 15-April 30.
F.	Duncan, February 18-March 15.
T.	Laronde, January 11-January 23.
3.	No.
4.	(a) Time in lieu thereof is allowed during or after heating season as can be most equitably arranged, (b) Yes.


EDOUARD HEBERT
Mr. BROOKS:: I.	Was Mr. Edouard Hebert, parish of Shediac, Westmorland county, New Brunswick, timekeeper or otherwise employed in connection with Pointe du Chene wharf, Westmorland county, ill the year 1937?
2.	If so, on what dates was Mr. Hebert employed as such timekeeper or otherwise, and what amount did he receive for his services?


Mr. CARDIN:: 
EXPORTS OF WHEAT
Mr. LACOMBE:: 1.	What quantity of wheat was exported from Canada during the years 1932, 1933, 1934, 1935, 1936 and 1937 to: (a) the United Kingdom; (b) other countries?
2.	What was the value of such exports during each of the said years?


Mr. EULER:: 1.	United	OtherCalendar	Kingdom	CountriesYears	Bushels	Bushels1932	
140,234,539	87,985,2161933	
121,043,260	71,231,6011934	.. .. 113.959,349 53,953,7061935	
123,876,920	41,795,7511936	
165,438,629	77,602,9011937	
73,927,157	22,081,184
2.
Calendar	United Other
Years	Kingdom	Countries
1932		 $ 75,965,723 $52,420,010
1933	
76,574,815	46,112,8711934	
88,192,258	42,965,4591935.'	
103.805,139	33,347,6681936	
154,872,712	72.041,0511937'	
95,794,483	28,645,096


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN
Mr. BOULANGER:: 1.	How many persons in the Quebec postal district are at present temporarily employed by the Post Office Department and without having passed the civil service examination?
2.	What was the date of first appointment of each of these employees, the nature of his work and his salary?
3.	How many persons in the postal district of Quebec successfully passed. the last civil service examination for positions as clerks, postal helpers, mail porters or letter carriers?
4.	How many of the successful candidates at the last examination have actually secured employment in the Quebec postal district?


MOTION FOR PAPERS
Mr. STIRLING:: For a copy of all orders in council, letters, forms of tender, bids or tenders, cables, tele. grams and correspondence of all kinds, relating to the construction of ships for the Canadian ..aval service prior to the 1st day of January, 1913.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: Subject to the usual reservation with reference to documents that may be confidential, there is no objection to the motion passing.



ANTICOSTI ISLAND


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. FERNAND RINFRET (Secretary of State):: Yesterday the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett) asked me to ascertain whether or not Mr. Karl R. Gerhard or anyone with a similar name has been naturalized in this country in 1938. The reply is as follows:
There is no record of the naturalization in Canada of any person bearing the name Emil Karl Gerhardt.
There is the record of a certificate of naturalization having been issued, on November 19, 1937, to Karl Rudolf Gerhard, of 3463 Shuter street, Montreal.
The petition of Gerhard for naturalization was filed in the office of the clerk of the circuit court for the district of Montreal, on the 2nd June, 1937. The petition was heard by His Honour Judge Bumbray, on the 22nd October, 1937, who made a favourable report. The oath of allegiance was taken by Gerhard on the 12th November, 1937, and a certificate was issued to him in the regular course.
According to bis own statement, confirmed by the records of the immigration branch, Department of Mines and Resources, this Karl Rudolf Gerhard, then aged twenty-two, farm labourer, destined to the Lutheran immigration board, Montreal, landed at Halifax on March 15, 1930, ex the SS. Stuttgart.
The particulars of his residence in Canada were given as follows:
At Eden, Ontario, 1930-32, % N. O. Stillwell, storekeeper.
At London, Ontario, 1932-33, Huron college and university.
At Waterloo, Ontario, 1933-34, % Jack Conrad, 34 Young street.
At Montreal, Quebec, from September, 1934, until 1937.
At the time of his application, he described himself as a journalist. He further stated that he had made a three months' visit to Germany in the summer of 1936.
There is no record in the Department of State as to whether this Mr. Gerhard made a trip to Europe during the course of this year or whether he was in Rome at the time of Mr. Hitler's visit.

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UNEMPLOYMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. G. MaeNEIL (Vancouver North): Has any progress been made towards the peaceful evacuation of the Vancouver post office by the single unemployed?
Hon. W. D. EULER (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: The situation is just as it was described yesterday. The men are still in the lobby of the post office.


Henry Herbert Stevens: And still playing games.


William Daum Euler: I have no knowledge of that; in fact I doubt it very much, just as my hon. friend's information was incorrect the other day.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Not at all.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. H. MITCHELL (Medicine Hat):: I wish to address a question to the Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe) and the Minister of Labour (Mr. Rogers). A telegram has come to-day addressed to the hon. member for Jasper-Edson (Mr. Kuhl), from the town of Edson, Alberta, a divisional point of the Canadian National Railways. It states that an already heavy relief burden is being further aggravated by the lay-off of railway employees at this point. The citizens there are expressing anxiety and they ask for an early solution. What assurance can the government give the people of Edson that these men will be adequately provided for so that a crisis which appears to be impending there may be averted? I notice that the ministers of transport and of labour are not in the chamber at the moment, and I trust that the Minister of Justice will direct their attention to the question.


Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: My two colleagues are engaged elsewhere to-day, but this matter will be called to their attention and I hope to give my hon. friend an answer to-morrow.



EXCISE TAX AMENDMENT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of National Revenue) moved the third reading of Bill No. 123, to amend the Excise Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Railway mail service, $10,323,670.
Mr. GREEN:: In the details of the vote given on page 169 it appears that there is only one grade for all railway mail clerks. About six weeks ago a delegation from the railway mail clerks appeared before the civil service committee, asking that a recommendation be made that there should be at least two grades of railway mail clerks, one for the junior men and one for the seniors who have charge of the different lines. We understood subsequently from the chairman of the civil service commission that the Post Office Department had asked for a regrading. Will new grades be established?


William Daum Euler: I am told that the matter has to be discussed with the civil service commission, but that has not yet been done. Action will follow as soon as the parliamentary committee on the civil service has completed its work, when the department will consult with the civil service commission as to what steps should appropriately be taken.


Howard Charles Green: Is the Post Office Department in favour of such a regrading?


William Daum Euler: No definite decision on that can be given until all the details have been thoroughly examined by the officials of the department. The department on its own initiative has referred the matter to the civil service commission for discussion. I do not know whether my hon. friend can gather a favourable opinion from that or not. But the matter will be discussed later on.


Howard Charles Green: The civil service commission gave us to understand that they were quite agreeable to it, but that the initiative had to come from the Post Office Department.


William Daum Euler: It has already been taken.


Mr. STEWART:: I notice an increase of $327,600 in this item. Referring to page 169, mail service by railway, we find that the
343G
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amount last year was 86,950,000 and this year $7,150,000, representing practically all the increase. How does this increase come about? Is there an extension of the service, or is it an increase in rates?


William Daum Euler: Almost the whole increase of $200,000 in this item is due to increased services. The following is a list of some eighteen new services that have been added, which accounts for $170,000 of the increase of $200,000:
Mail Service by Railway
The increase of $200,000 is to provide for the following services:
Route-Service	Annual cost
Hartney and Virden-Baggage car
to postal car	$ 1,710 14
Montreal and Toronto-Baggage
car service (new)	 6,917	20
Ottawa and Broekville-Baggage
car service (new)	 1,601	60
London and Hamilton-Baggage
car service (new)	 1,014	12
Sudbury, Capreol and Winnipeg (trains 94, 97, 3, 4)-Baggage car
service (new)	 5,081	96
Sudburv, Capreol and Winnipeg
(trains 95, 3, 1, 2, 4, 96)-Bag-	_
gage car to postal car	 88,350 52
Capreol and Field-Baggage car
service (new)	 473	40
Pembina and Winnipeg-Baggage
car to postal car	 3,153	48
Melville and Winnipeg-Baggage
car service (new)	 582	00
Toronto and Sudbury junction-
Baggage car service (new).. ..	3,405 44
Toronto, North Bay and Timmins-
Baggage car to postal car	 7,470 58
McLennan and Hines Creek-Baggage ear to postal	car	 2,946	84
Senneterre and Val d'Or-Baggage
car service (new)	 1,802	88
Edmonton and Dawson Creek-Increase in frequency, postal car
service	 10,944	18
McLennan and Hines Creek-Increase in frequency, baggage car
service	  1,372	08
Toronto, London and Windsor;
London, St. Thomas and Simcoe;
Toronto and	Stratford-Rearrangement of train service. ..	2,093	92Richmond and Sherbrooke-Baggage car to postal	ear	
1,408	50Montreal and "Winnipeg-Overflow space	
30,000	00


Mr. BAKER:: Is this money equally divided between the two railways?


William Daum Euler: It is impossible to make an arbitrarily equal division of the services. It depends on the points served by the different railways.
CMr. Stewart.]	1	7


Mr. ELLIOTT (Kindersley):: Does the increase in parcel post weight limit involve an increase in staff or equipment to handle that extra business?


William Daum Euler: Not up to this time.


Otto Buchanan Elliott: What was the reason for increasing the weight?


William Daum Euler: Chiefly to give an extra
service to people in rural districts; and I think the department hopes for a little heavier income from the parcel post service on account of that increase.


Mr. SENN:: The minister stated that this
increase was not divided arbitrarily on an equal basis between the two railways. Of course there are places served by only one railway system. On the other hand there are many places reached by both railways. What is the system followed by the department in such cases? Is the service divided between the two railways or is one used exclusively? What is the governing factor?


William Daum Euler: I am informed that where
both railways are available no one railway gets the business exclusively; there is a division. I cannot say whether it is always an equal division.


Mr. BARBER:: I have in mind services
in British Columbia, Are not the through mail contracts from the east to Vancouver held altogether by one company?


William Daum Euler: I am not sure that I can
answer that question entirely to the satisfaction of my hon. friend. There is a difference in favour of the Canadian Pacific Railway, which I understand is largely accounted for by the fact that it was the pioneer railway, and reaches more completely the towns and villages in that locality than does the Canadian National. Naturally the business would go by the Canadian Pacific where they can serve the communities best. Through mails from the Atlantic to the Pacific, coming in by Canadian Pacific steamships, account for a very large proportion.


Harry James Barber: I have in mind the lower
Fraser valley. The mails have been carried by the Canadian Pacific on the north side of the river for many years, perhaps since mail cars first commenced to run. But from places situated on the Canadian National on the south side of the river the mails at present go to Vancouver via Canadian Pacific and then come back by the British Columbia Electric to points in the Fraser valley, which means that although there is a train on the Canadian National coming in at 7 a.m. which

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could deliver our mail, we do not receive it until noon. And there is the same delay with outgoing mails; they go to Vancouver or a point near Vancouver and are taken across and placed on the Canadian Pacific. The minister mentioned baggage car service. I think that district could be well served with a baggage car service between. Kamloops and New Westminster. It is a service which we very much desire. It has been discussed from time to time, connecting with the Canadian Pacific from Rosedale to Agassiz. If this could be arranged, to give us a baggage car from those points at any rate,, it would solve the problem. I am speaking of one of the largest settlements, which is served by several rural routes, that is (he Chilliwack area on the Canadian National.


William Daum Euler: I assure my friend that we
shall be glad to give his suggestion every consideration.


Harry James Barber: The baggage car rates would not be very high.


William Daum Euler: I am told that the cost would be very little more, though I cannot say precisely what it would be.


Harry James Barber: It would be a great convenience to the people of that district, the business people particularly; it would mean a difference of several hours.


William Daum Euler: We shall be very glad to consider it.


Mark Cecil Senn: May I ask if buses are used to any extent at all in carrying mail from one point to another, and whether that comes under this item. I understand that from time to time newspapers are carried by bus, but I do not know whether or not the cost is borne by the newspaper companies themselves. I should like to know if there is any use made of the buses.


William Daum Euler: The bus service comes under the following item. This has to do with the railway mail service.


Mr. ISNOR:: To me this item dealing with railway mail service has to do with a very important branch of the Post Office Department. The railway mail clerks are chosen from the best of the postal clerks. Their hours are long, and I am wondering just what protection they receive in the way of accommodation. We remember that last year or the year before the Dominion Railway Mail Clerks' Association made a protest in regard to cars of a certain type, and I should
like the minister to advise us whether the department has any control over the type of car which is provided for the use of the railway mail clerks.


William Daum Euler: I am told that representations in this regard are being made constantly to the railway companies and the railway commission, and improvements are made from time to time.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Who makes the representations?


William Daum Euler: The Post Office Department.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I should like a little more light on this point. Are the representations made from the association to the department and then from the department to the railways? Is that the procedure?


William Daum Euler: That is usually the case.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Is steel equipment now being used throughout or are the older types of cars still in use?


William Daum Euler: The change has not been made in all cases, but it is being made gradually and progressively from the wooden cars to the steel cars.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I thank the minister for that information. I sincerely trust that in the very near future the change will be completed so that steel cars will be used throughout; because, as I said before, this is a most important branch of the service and the men are compelled to work very long hours. They are not like the men on duty in the ordinary post office, who are working in a fireproof building. These men carry on at all hours, day and night, and it is necessary for them to complete their work by stated times. For that reason I think they should have every protection possible.
I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the department for inaugurating a better, quicker and more satisfactory service between Boston and Halifax via Yarmouth, which I understand comes into operation on June 35. I think it only fitting that I should express my thanks and appreciation at this time.


Mr. SPENCE:: In these days when business is declining sharply and when business people are more or less up against it, and with so many people out of work, I wonder if there is any real necessity for an added expenditure of $327,000 to give this extra service. Does the minister really believe this is a necessity?
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William Daum Euler: I did not actually make up these estimates, of course, 'but I am quite sure the business people themselves demanded improved service, and in response to these demands we are making these extensions and additions. I cannot say anything further with regard to the matter. I think the extensions and additions that are being made are thoroughly justified. This is a growing business; Canada is a growing country, and while at the moment there may be what might be termed a slight recession, we hope it will be only temporary.


James Houston Spence: Business people are just like other people; they want anything they think they can get as long as they do not have to pay for it. It is up to the department to refuse to give them anything that does not pay the department. It is really a waste of money to give too much service when the financial position of the country does not warrant it.


Mr. McGREGOR:: How much of this money goes to each of the railways?


William Daum Euler: For 1936-37 the figures are as follows: The Canadian Pacific received $3,550,789.32, and the Canadian National, $2,901,703.10.


Mr. WOOESWORTH:: At the present time, as we all know, there is a decided drive on the part of the Canadian Pacific railway to bring about some sort of unification, and one of the reasons is that it would result in some saving to the taxpayers. I have been looking over the amounts granted to the Canadian Pacific for the carriage of mail. I am quoting from an article that appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press of May 28, and I assume that these figures are correct:
1925		$3,552,416
1926		 3,607,036
1927		 3,727,444
1928		 3,715,032
1929		 3,741,391
1930		 3,693,153
1931		 3,565,386
1932		 3,621,875
1933		 3,490,697
1934		 3,519,697
1935		 3,537,456
1936		 3,584,823
1937		 3,599,676
These are very large sums. For the life of me-and I have raised this question before -when we have our own Canadian National property, supported by the taxpayers of this country, I cannot see why we should not give the Canadian National Railways, wherever possible, the business of carrying the mails.

I asked this question several years ago and could not get a satisfactory answer. I do not think there is one forthcoming; at least, if the minister can give it I would like to have it. Even in the case of mail carried on Canadian Pacific steamships I cannot see why, when it reaches this country, it could not for the most part be carried over the lines of the Canadian National Railways, or at least to half of the territory covered. Certainly, through mails could be carried in that way.
I should like to have a further explanation from the minister. If there is anything in the plea Sir Edward Beatty is making, that we ought to try to save money for the taxpayers, then is this not one way in which it could be done.


Mr. HOWDEN:: I would like-


James Shaver Woodsworth: May I have an answer from the minister, before we pass from this point?


John Power Howden: I was going to ask a question along the same lines.


William Daum Euler: Perhaps two or three years or more ago I might have made the same sort of speech as the hon. member has just made, because in those days I drew attention to the same conditions with regard to the mail service of the two railways. And I would not say for a moment that at the present time I am in disagreement with the hon. member. At the same time I am informed that the differential is gradually diminishing; that is, the two railways are approaching more nearly the same amounts which they receive from the government for the carrying of mail.
There are many reasons, and probably I should give them here, for the difference between the two contracts. For example, mail carried on Canadian Pacific railway ships across the Atlantic and routed to western Canada would naturally, I suppose, be carried on Canadian Pacific railway trains. That which is carried on the Cunarders, which may not be so widely patronized, would go on the Canadian National Railways. When the Canadian Pacific railway was built into western Canada it was the pioneer road. It passes to the south and through the larger towns and cities such as Brandon, Regina, Moose Jaw, Calgary and on to Vancouver. Probably for that reason it receives more for the carrying of mail than would the Canadian National Railways passing farther to the north. Then, radiating from the main line of the Canadian Pacific railway are many branch lines. I do not know just what the number is, as com-

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pared with the branch lines of the Canadian National Railways. I am informed, however, that they are more numerous and would naturally get more mail business than would the Canadian National system.
I do not believe the same argument would apply in eastern Canada because at least in western Ontario I believe the Canadian National lines are as numerous.


James Shaver Woodsworth: But even if they are-


William Daum Euler: I am granting that. I do not say that the same argument would prevail in eastern Canada. At this time I am not going to make an explanation of the situation. I am saying nothing as to the policy of the present government, whether or not there is any well-defined policy with regard to the matter or whether the fact that the one is publicly owned and the other privately owned should have any bearing whatsoever on the amount of business that should be given to each. I have heard it strenuously argued that the Canadian National Railways should not be favoured at the expense of the privately owned line. I will admit I have always felt-


James Shaver Woodsworth: Is that the government policy?


William Daum Euler: I am not making a declaration of policy. The one policy that is being followed is, I believe, the policy which has been in vogue for many years-and I say this subject to correction from members of previous governments-namely, that there was not to be any discrimination in favour of either the publicly owned or the privately owned line.


James Shaver Woodsworth: But these figures
seem to indicate that there is discrimination.


William Daum Euler: These are not discriminatory. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company happen to get more contracts and more money because their lines run in the places where they can best give the service. I am told that is the explanation.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Is there a greater Canadian Pacific mileage than Canadian National?


William Daum Euler: No. But especially in western Canada the Canadian Pacific passes through the more thickly populated parts, and the cities which receive more mail.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: There is a greater volume of postal business.


William Daum Euler: Yes. In western Canada there is a greater volume of mail received along the lines of the Canadian Pacific than along those of the Canadian National.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister has
said the difference is decreasing. Will he give details for the last ten or twelve years as to amounts given to the Canadian National Railways ?


William Daum Euler: 
James Shaver Woodsworth: But not very
rapidly.


John Power Howden: I should like to follow up the interrogation of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre. What is the policy of the Post Office Department with regard to the distribution of railway mail contracts? Are they let by tender? A minute ago the minister said that because the Canadian Pacific railway has direct connection with certain steamship lines, he assumes it would be given transference of the mail from those lines. I do not believe that is a sufficiently good reason. It is the custom of the government generally to let contracts by tender. If those mail contracts are not let by tender, how are they let? I ask that because it is evident the Canadian National Railways have been getting the worst of the deal all along the line for many years.


William Daum Euler: That question is easily
answered. The space rates on the cars are fixed by order in council, and are the same for both railways. The allotting of the contracts is on the basis I suggested a moment ago, namely to whichever railway can give the better service.


John Power Howden: The two railways carry
passengers from one coast to the other. My information is that the Canadian Pacific has all the through mail contracts, and if that is so it certainly looks like discrimination.


William Daum Euler: I can give no explanation
other than the one I have already given, that it is not correct to say that the Canadian Pacific carries all the mail to the Pacific coast-


John Power Howden: All through mail.


William Daum Euler: No, not all the through
mail. But for the reasons I have given they
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have the greater proportion. There may be other reasons with which I am not conversant.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air and land mail services, $8,052,005.
Harry James Barber: What portion of the vote last year was expended on this service? The minister might also indicate the revenues from the service.


William Daum Euler: In 1937-38 there was an expenditure of $6,087,888.56 out of a vote of $6,325,000. The air appropriation in that year was $705,000, with expenditures of $375,400.79. A large part of the appropriation was not expended.


Harry James Barber: What was the revenue?


William Daum Euler: I am afraid I cannot give the detailed items of revenue because the amounts have not been divided. The net revenue was $35,546,161.25.


Harry James Barber: Is that the total revenue from the post office?


William Daum Euler: The total revenue from all post office services.


Harry James Barber: What is the amount from the air mail service?


William Daum Euler: It is impossible to segregate the revenue from the different items.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The sale of air mail stamps would show that, would it not?


William Daum Euler: So far as the mail service on land, stamps on cheques, and so on, are *concerned, those are not really postal revenue.


Henry Herbert Stevens: But the air mail postage is.


William Daum Euler: The estimated revenue from the air mail service is $631,043.S8.


Richard Langton Baker: Do I understand the minister to say that only $400,000 was spent on the air mail service? My thought was that it would be profitable, and I think it is, which is creditable. Has the department considered developing the air mail service?


William Daum Euler: We are doing that.


Richard Langton Baker: But even more than at present? I would go so far as to say that even if the air mail service was not profitable, it should be developed, because then in case of emergency you would have a well trained force that might prove very useful.


William Daum Euler: We are extending the air mail service all the time. The Trans-Canada air mail service will begin about July 1. It is an extensive addition to the present service.

Another service is being inaugurated this summer from Regina to Prince Albert, and there are others under consideration, one from Vancouver to Fort St. John, joining up with the line from Calgary and Edmonton to White Horse. The department is as fully air-minded as any other part of the populace, I think,-so far as air mail service is concerned.


Richard Langton Baker: I am glad to hear of the extensions of the service that are being made. I should like to see the Post Office Department encourage an even greater extension of the service, even at a loss within certain limits, because in addition to giving an air mail service it would provide us with a magnificent, trained force to call upon.


Archibald Hugh Mitchell: In the details given on page 170 of the estimates there is an item, mail service by air, $1,573,435, an increase from $705,000 the previous year. May I ask what is included in that item?


William Daum Euler: Does my hon. friend refer to just the increase?


Archibald Hugh Mitchell: No; I want to know what mail service by air includes.


William Daum Euler: The increases are accounted for very largely by the inauguration of the air mail service on the Trans-Canada Air Lines, which will begin about July 1. If my hon. friend desires a list of the services, they fill about three pages and total between forty and fifty.


Archibald Hugh Mitchell: I wanted to know what that $1,500,000 was expended on.


William Daum Euler: It is for the carrying of mails by air.


Archibald Hugh Mitchell: Are there contract payments to air companies, including the Trans-Canada?


William Daum Euler: Precisely.


Archibald Hugh Mitchell: How are these contracts let for air services? Are tenders called for?


William Daum Euler: Under the provisions of the
Post Office Act tenders are called for in most cases, but that is not the case with the Trans-Canada Air Lines because it is owned by the Dominion of Canada, and the companies are paid a price fixed by the government for the carrying of mails. The service from Regina to Prince Albert, for example, is done by. tender, and most of the other services are by tender.


Mr. TUSTIN:: The minister said the estimated revenue was $680,000. Is that for air services for the coming year?

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William Daum Euler: That is not for this year,
'but for 1937-38. We can, of course, expect much larger revenues this year because we are inaugurating further services like the Trans-Canada Air Lines and others.


George James Tustin: That is why I asked the
*question. I notice that about $800,000 more is being provided for expenditures on air service.


William Daum Euler: That is almost wholly for
new services, chiefly the trans-Canada, which will bring in further revenue.
Mr. McIvENZIE (Lambton-Kent): I should like to say a word on behalf of the rural mail carriers. No body of men in any department give more efficient or faithful service than dp the rural mail carriers. Day after *day. summer and winter, they carry on their work in all kinds of weather. They have made requests to the department from time to time that they be remunerated on a more adequate basis, but the reply has been that the contracts are let by tender, and if a lower tender has been submitted, it is their [DOT]own fault. But that is not altogether true because I find on looking up the records that there was a departmental ruling in 1932-33, rvhen probably postal revenues were a little low, the effect of which was this:	If a contract was unfortunate enough to fall due in that period, the contractor was told that he could not renew if the rate was over $35 per mile; under that rate, they would renew the contract. The result was that those rural mail carriers who were unfortunate enough to have their contracts expire in that period had to take a reduction in price. This has created an unfortunate situation because in many post offices we have men getting $40 per mile and other men, through no fault of their own but just because their contracts expired in that earlier period, getting $35 per mile. I have asked the department on several occasions to restore the pay of these men to its former status, but the reply is that they cannot raise the price without calling for tenders, but they can lower it. That seems to be a peculiar state of affairs, because if you can change the contract one way surely you can change it the other. They have presented their case from time to time in clear and moderate terms, and their claims should be given sympathetic consideration. They have given the best service possible and are maintaining it at a high standard of efficiency. I think it should be possible for the department to establish a minimum amount, because when the tenders are opened it is frequently found that some people, who have not much knowledge of what the
work involves, put in a tender much lower than it can be reasonably done for. For that reason I believe there should be a minimum rate set. I might add while I am on my feet that I think the department could very well restore some of the holidays they have taken from these men in years gone by.


James Houston Spence: During some years that I have been in this house, the rural mail service has been criticized by hon. members of all political views; it is an annual affair. I agree that some of these men are working for practically nothing; they are not getting sufficient to maintain their truck or their car or horse or wagon, as the case may be; but the fault is their own; they tender too cheaply, that is the difficulty. I cannot see how the department can change it, although I should be very glad to see it changed. Someone has mentioned that the people are getting air-minded. To my mind the people are "in the air", and the post office department are leaving them to it. In this item we are discussing and the three items above it there is an increase of over $1,600,000. I wonder how long eleven million people can stand the drain that is coming through in the estimates this year. The estimates of every department have been increased; there is to be no reduction in anything. Is business getting any better? Are the people any better off? Just feel your own pocket and ask yourself.


An hon. MEMBER:: The Liberals are in power.


James Houston Spence: The Liberals cannot make good times any more than anyone else can. Nobody can do it.


William Daum Euler: In spite of what the hon. member says, the money which is spent in the air mail service comes back to us. It is a paying business.


James Houston Spence: The minister cannot show much revenue coming back from it. I believe it is like the Post Office Department; they do not know whether they are making money or losing it. We have not been given the true standing of the Post Office Department since I have been in the house. The minister is not to blame.


Mr. THOMPSON:: On several occasions when these estimates have been before the house I have called the attention of the committee to the condition of the rural mail carriers, and I want to say a word in that connection in support of what the hon. member for Lambton-Kent (Mr. McKenzie) has said. It has been stated here that these men are paid the value they place on their own
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services. I say that is quite unfair. Why should the rural mail carrier be treated any differently from the city or the town mail carrier? There is a fixed salary for the man in the city or town who is delivering the mail. In this case they ask for tenders and they select the man whom they or the civil service commission think is best qualified to discharge those duties. But they go out into the country and say, "Now, you fellows bid against each other, and we will give the contract to the lowest bidder", and they are continually employing the men who put the lowest value upon their own services. That is absolutely unfair to the rural mail carriers. Also there is a certain amount of patronage involved- I will not say in the appointments, because the lowest tenderer invariably gets it if he can obtain two sureties with whom the department is satisfied; but when the four-year contract expires the man who has the patronage in that riding, either the member sitting on the government side or the defeated candidate if his party should be in office, is written to and asked if he would recommend that the contract be renewed or whether it should be put up for tender; and his advice is always followed. Now, why should the job of the man who has been faithfully discharging his duties for four years be subject to the whim of some man who thinks that he did or did not support his party? I say it is unfair.
I should like to see a mileage rate set. Some routes may be run cheaper than others. The highway which is ploughed out in the winter time and is always easy of access by car or horse may be more cheaply run than one in the back country where the roads are not in such good condition. A mileage rate should be set upon every rural route; ask for your tenders and then select from them the man whom you feel is the most competent to do the work; do not leave the tenderers at the mercy of the man who has the patronage of the riding. I know of several cases where people who were hard up have bid for these rural routes below what they should be run for. I remember saying to one man, "Why did you put in a tender for that route at that figure?" He said, "Well, I am hard up. I have a boy of about fourteen who has just come out of school, and he can take one of the horses and run that, and I have that much money coming in." "But," I said, "it will scarcely feed your horse." What I want to see done is to have the rural mail carriers placed upon the same footing as the city mail carriers. Let there be no difference between them. Further, let these appointfMr. Thompson.]
ments be made by the civil service commission, and let no man be discharged from his office except for cause. That is the only way that you will get the rural mail on a satisfactory basis. At the present time it is universally acknowledged, I believe, that an injustice is being done to our rural mail carriers.


James Houston Spence: There is just one thing I want to emphasize. I agree with all the previous speaker (Mr. Thompson) has said, but in the city of Toronto there is always competition for carrying the mails from substation to station, railway station to post office, and so on. I do not know the amount of the tender of the man who got the last contract in my district, but he cut out the man who had been doing the work for several years. So it is evident that there is competitive bidding, as in the rural mail routes, although I do not know whether that applies in every city.


Thomas Alfred Thompson: It is the delivery of letters we are talking about.


Archibald Hugh Mitchell: My constituency is very largely rural, and I wish to support the remarks made by the hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Thompson) concerning the problems of the rural mail carrier. I know that in the Medicine Hat constituency the mail carriers often have to travel over exceedingly difficult prairie roads, and to make the journey in all kinds of weather, and they are expected to break the trail. The people in the neighbourhood always look to the rural mail carrier to do that trail-breaking for them, because they know that he has to make the journey. I have noticed that their outfits- their cars or whatever they are using to break the trail-are the most ramshackle ones in the community, largely because of the work they are called upon to do and the small revenue they are able to get out of their contract. I have known of rural mail carriers in my constituency who have had to drop their contracts before completion, and the guarantors have had to supply substitutes and pay them out of their own pockets. While I have not personally made a special study of the case of the rural mail carriers, I have every reason to agree with and to support the plea of the hon. member for Lanark that the contracts be placed on a definite mileage basis rather than left to the cupidity of individuals to outbid one another on a minimum scale. Surely it should be possible to improve on that method.


William Daum Euler: And make them civil servants?

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Archibald Hugh Mitchell: If need be. I disagree very much with the patronage method of appointing rural mail carriers. It does not seem to be the kind of thing that ought to be a reward for political virtue, and since it is a public service that delivers mail to Liberals, Conservatives, Social Crediters and whatnot, everywhere, it ought not to be a political prize. I object to it.


Mr. WALSH:: I rather like the reference to political virtue. It sounds appetizing. May I ask the minister the names of the persons serving on the directorate of the Trans-Canada Air Lines representing the Post Office Department?


William Daum Euler: The representative of the Post Office Department is Mr. Herring.


William Allen Walsh: He is an official of the Post Office Department?


William Daum Euler: He is the chief superintendent of the air mail service.


William Allen Walsh: How many directors are there on the Trans-Canada Air Lines?


William Daum Euler: That is really in the Department of Transport. I believe that there are two transport men on the board but I do not know what the total number is.


William Allen Walsh: I ask the question for this reason. I recall a bill going through the house some time ago when Trans-Canada Air Lines was first put into operation. In that bill there was a clause providing that after 1940 the cost of the mail carried on that route would vary with the surplus or the deficit which the airways might have encountered during the course of the previous year. I cannot recall the clause definitely, but the purport would be that any deficit sustained by the Trans-Canada Air Lines would be borne by the Post Office Department beginning with the year 1940. Probably the minister has reference to section-


William Daum Euler: Section 17.


William Allen Walsh: Yes. It appeared to me even at that time that it was not a fair clause to put in a bill of this kind creating an air service from one end of Canada to the other, which was not altogether for the purpose of transferring mail from one point to another, and making the Post Office Department responsible for any deficit that might be created. I recall that at the time the suggestion was made, and it was repeated later, that there would be no deficit in connection with the trans-Canada airways. We were told that we need have no fear so far as deficits
were concerned, that it would be a surplus-producing operation and it would be run at a profit. We all hoped that. I can remember the optimistic reference which an early report on the railways made in connection with our railway operations when the government took over the railways in the early twenties. We were given to understand at that time that we would very soon be receiving returns in the way of surpluses. Here was another encouraging report by a responsible minister of the crown suggesting that this new enterprise was going to be run at a profit, that there would be a surplus. I am sorry that the minister is not in his place but I know that he will have no objection to a reference to a previous statement made in this house, and made also before the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines in the course ol their meetings this year.
This surplus is only a presumption; it is quite possible that there will be no surplus, but there is likely to be a deficit, and the Post Office Department is to be saddled with that deficit. My contention is that the Post Office Department should protect its interests and see that the clause is eliminated from the bill incorporating the Trans-Canada Air Lines.


William Daum Euler: Would it not be a little late now to do that? The time was when the bill was put through.


William Allen Walsh: It was urged at that time, but the government thought it advisable, and they had the necessary power to incorporate that provision in the bill. I wish to urge again, however, now that the Post Office estimates are before us that the point I am making be given consideration. I do not think it is fair to ask one department to bear the responsibility for the success or otherwise of an undertaking that is managed altogether by another department. If the Post Office Department had on the board of directors of the Trans-Canada Air Lines an equal number of directors with those from the other departments of government they could probably protect their own interests; but with only one director out of five or seven the Post Office Department can scarcely be protected, and yet according to this clause their interest happens to be very vital inasmuch as they have to bear the responsibility for the success or failure of the enterprise financially. I urge that as a point worthy of consideration, particularly in view of the fact that this is 1938 and this clause is to come into effect in 1940. Before it is put into effect I hope that the Post Office Department will see that their rights are more adequately protected than they seem to be at the present time.
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William Daum Euler: I am afraid that any action now to reverse what was done in a government bill last session would be rather premature. I think it must be presumed that the government followed that policy after mature consideration, and I should hardly feel like urging that it be reversed before it has been tried. The hope is that neither the Post Office Department nor the Trans-Canada Air Lines will lose money, after the policy has had a fair trial.
I should not like my hon. friend from Lambton and others who have spoken with reference to the mail carriers dilemma, if you like to put it that way, to think that I am neglecting to note what they had to say. Every year since I have been a member of this house-twenty-one years-I think this matter has been agitated by hon. members sympathetic to the cause of rural mail carriers. I also feel some sympathy for them. But the question has many sides; it is a matter of policy. It is now the law that rural mail contracts shall be let by tender and the contract given to the lowest tenderer-


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Except-


William Daum Euler: -except the Postmaster
General thinks it is not in the public interest or something of that kind. But, generally speaking, I think the principle of tendering is a just one. It is applied in other departments; when a public building or public work is to be undertaken plans are submitted for tender and the lowest tender accepted. That is generally the way in which private business is done; I think it is a fair principle in regard to government contracts. Comparison has been made with city mail carriers, who are civil servants and receive a fixed remuneration. There is room for argument; it may be urged that rural mail carriers should also have a fixed salary. As to a tender per mile-well, there could not be a tender if you fix a price per mile. How would you award the contract?


Thomas Alfred Thompson: To the man considered most competent.


William Daum Euler: In accordance with the provisions of the Civil Service Act. I am not in a position to say whether the government has any thought of changing the policy. The Post Office Act would have to be changed. This would have to be considered, that if rural mail carriers were paid in anything like the same proportion as carriers in the cities the post office would be a losing proposition. Some years ago there was. I believe, a bill introduced which, if it had become law, would have increased the cost of carrying these rural mails by about $10,000,000 a year.

Usually one likes to pay for service about what it is worth, and while I have no fault to find with giving mail delivery to people-in rural areas, anyone who knows anything, about the matter knows that rural mail delivery is a losing proposition. Whether we should say that people in the country should get this service even if we lose still more heavily is something for consideration; perhaps they should. But if any such method as putting these carriers under the civil service commission were adopted, there wmuld be a very substantial deficit in the Post Office Department. However, it is a matter for consideration. I am only the acting minister; the observations that, have been made will no doubt be brought to the attention of the Postmaster General for his consideration.


Thomas Alfred Thompson: If the tender system is a fair one, as the minister has said, why is it not carried out in other departments of the government?


William Daum Euler: It is.


Thomas Alfred Thompson: It is not in other departments. It may be in contracts for a public building, which is an altogether different matter from hiring a man to perform certain duties. If that principle is a fair one, why not apply it to other departments, and to mail carriers in the cities?. I maintain that it is a very unfair principle, and that some remedy should be found for this rural mail situation. The present system cannot be defended in fairness or justice. I have known people who have faithfully carried the mail for four years and who at the end of that time have found their route put up for tender by the man handling the patronage of the riding, and the pay beaten down to less than half what it was before; twenty or twenty-five people bidding against one another. These things are not in the best interests of good service. I feel very strongly on the matter. Of course, as the minister has said, this matter has been brought before the house every year for many years. If put on a basis comparable with city carriers, it would entail a large expenditure; nevertheless the present basis is unfair and should be changed.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: As the minister said,
this subject is not a new one. I admit it presents considerable difficulty. There is, however, a principle which I think the minister will recognize, that is that the labourer is worthy of his hire. He deserves fair compensation. I .think it is not beyond the capacity of the officials and inspectors of the department, who are highly efficient and have a good organization, to undertake a survey

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of these rural routes and to classify them m three or four categories. On some of these routes we know the mail carrier makes a little incidental revenue. On other routes there is no revenue. Some routes are ten or twelve miles, some twenty or thirty miles; some are over good roads, some over bad roads, in winter and in summer. It is a complicated proposition. So, if action is to be taken, I think it should be in the way of putting each route in its own class. We must remember also that in most cases it is only a part-time job, and therefore it is difficult to compare it with the work of the city mail carrier. But that is not an unsurmountable difficulty, and I am sure the Post Office Department inspectors have knowledge enough to put a fair price on each and every rural mail route under four or five different classifications. Then, if they established rates of 820, 830, $40, $50, a month, that would be the basic rate, and those who desired to carry mail on that basis might be advertised for and a selection made.


William Daum Euler: By whom?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Well, that raises the
question whether it should be under the civil service commission or the Post Office Department. There is a lot of mean, petty patronage now in connection with these rural mail routes.


William Daum Euler: I should like my hon. friend to interpret that word "now" a little more definitely.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Oh, I am not particular;
I will say there has been ever since rural mail delivery was established, if that will give the minister any comfort. There is now, has been, and I will say always will be, as long as the present system is continued. It is desirable that that be removed. I think the minister will agree that in rural communities these miserable little contracts are a source of grievances and bitternesses that persist and are out of all proportion to the importance of the contract. So I suggest that for the purpose of doing away with this miserable, petty, contemptible patronage, the system that has been suggested should be adopted. Perhaps the selection should not be made by the department; I would be prepared to trust the inspector of the department or the minister, but it would be always under the suspicion that there was patronage in it. So perhaps the civil service commission is the only organization that is free from patronage or the suspicion of patronage in that direction. They could make the selection.
Once a man has a contract he must equip himself; he has to buy a motor car or some sort of vehicle, and he has his contract for only four years. Then up comes the patronage question again. The member of parliament is bothered; he is notified of the expiration of this contract and asked whether he recommends that it be renewed or that it should be put up for tender. He is the victim of pressure in his own community, and it would be better for him if he had nothing whatever to do with it.


William Daum Euler: Quite right.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: It would be much better for him. The member of parliament is in a position of responsibility to this house at all times, but a defeated candidate has no such responsibility. Regardless of that, he is just as zealous about this little matter of patronage-perhaps more so-as the member of parliament who has the responsibility of representing the constituency. His friends go to him and he goes to the department, if you please, and makes representations. Though the unfortunate man who had the contract may have given good service and performed the work at a price satisfactory to the department, this defeated candidate, if you please, says, "I want this put for tender," and his request is complied with. That is the unfortunate part of it. As I say, he has no responsibility whatever, but his request is complied with and an injustice may be done to a man who has served faithfully and who has the support of the people on the rural route, who want him retained. That does not make any difference; the route is put up for tender again on a patronage basis. That, I think, is the worst evil in connection with the whole thing.
In order to put the service on something like a reasonable and fair basis for the man performing the work, I think a basic rate should be established. Then let the applicants go to the civil service commission; let a selection be made and let that be permanent. That should be the end of it, as long as that man discharges his duties satisfactorily, just as it is the end of it with any other public servant. These are the suggestions I make to the minister in connection with the rural mail service, realizing the difficulties and the fact that these discussions have taken place year after year though no action has been taken. I think if we resolved to put it on a fair basis and eliminate patronage, we would be doing a real public service; we would be saving money, and we would be putting the relations of the people in these communities on a much firmer and better basis.
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It would be better for the members of parliament and for the defeated candidates as well. That is all I desire to say on that point.
There is one other observation I desire to make. I noticed in connection with the last item, for the railway mail service, a substantial increase; and I notice another substantial increase in the amount for air and land mail service. I believe the minister has made it clear that so far as the mail service by air is concerned, the receipts have been greater than the expenditures for the past year. I notice that the expenditure for the coming year is to be SI,673,435, as against $705,000 for last year, or more than double, which forces one to the conclusion that the mail service of Canada for the next year is going to cost a considerable amount more than it cost last year. Then, when we come to the supplementary estimates, we find that for the railway mail service there is a further amount required of S34,000 and for air and land mail services a further amount of $168,000, which brings the total cost of the mail service considerably in excess of what it was last year.


William Daum Euler: Of course the revenues will be up as well.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: One would hope so, but the point I wish to make is this: In establishing these additional air services shall we reduce the cost of the rail service, or shall we simply have a duplication? It is an improved service, of course; but is it really a duplication, or are we cutting down on the cost of our rail service through the establishment of the air services? In which direction are we going? Are we just building up a duplicate service that will cost more each year, even though the revenue may increase; or are we going to be able to eliminate some of these other services to balance up?


William Daum Euler: With regard to the extension of the air mail service and whether it is just duplicating the land service, my answer would be that this is not the case to any great extent. Many of the air mail services go to places in the interior, mining districts and so on, where they have no railway service at all. With regard to the Trans-Canada air mail service I would judge that possibly when a man sent a letter by air mail he would not send a duplicate letter by the train service; but of course it must be remembered that while there may be some diminution in the amount of mail carried by rail, the rate received for carriage by air is twice the rail rate, six cents as compared with three cents.

With regard to the increased expenditure, the increase is due almost entirely to the extended air mail service, more particularly the Trans-Canada service, and we hope to obtain a revenue commensurate with the added cost.


Mr. McIVOR:: I had a little experience during the past year with the post office officials, and I should like to pay my tribute to their courtesy and efficiency. I received notice that the salary of our rural mail carrier, who is an efficient man with a family of ten good children, was being objected to; that some people thought he was receiving too much; that his salary should be cut or that somebody else should have a chance to tender. I do not know whether that man was a Conservative, a Liberal or a member of the social credit party, but I do know he belonged to a group just as important as any of these parties; I refer to the fact that he was a returned soldier. I wrote just as plain a letter as my intelligence would permit, stating that this man's salary should be increased instead of being cut down. I received a most courteous reply stating that there would be no change for this year, and I would inform the acting minister and the officials now that as far as I am concerned there will be no change next year. When that man drives his car summer and winter, sometimes digging himself through snow four feet deep, he earns every dollar he receives. I must say however that I could not have got better treatment or more courteous replies from any department than I got from the Post Office Department.


Mr. WOOD:: I should like to make one or two observations at this point, and probably I may mention several facts, as the discussion has been rather broad. I am sorry to see the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Stewart) leaving the chamber because it seems to me that his references to rural mail carriers have been totally different in the last two or three years from what they were previously. May I point out that the hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Thompson) was also aware of these facts when for five years he supported a government, but I have not seen any indication of action that was taken at that time.
I do not speak because I have not sympathy with the ideas expressed by the hon. members, but that which has impressed me, a new member in the house, has been the attitude of those who had the opportunity during those five years to make the corrections. I would suggest that the acting Postmaster General has made a satisfactory defence, and that there is something to be said in favour of his statements.

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While I must admit I am sorry to see rural mail contracts let at low rates, yet it may be that we as members of parliament have some responsibilities in the matter. For my part, may I say that this morning I sanctioned three contracts in connection with the Post Office Department. I did not know the political complexions of the applicants. I was not at all concerned with that aspect of the matter. If they want the positions, then so far as I am concerned I should like to see them have them.
The hon. members for Lanark (Mr. Thompson) and Leeds (Mr. Stewart) referred to petty bickering and patronage; possibly that can be traced to their own weakness. I believe we as members of the House of Commons should do all we can towards correcting this injustice.
There is another section of the community which does not enjoy the advantage of house to house delivery; I refer to small towns with populations under a certain amount. The record before me shows that there are fifty-three towns in Canada with post office revenues of $20,000. In those towns are energetic and ambitious people, and they feel they would like to have the advantage of postal services equal to those enjoyed by the people in the larger industrial centres.
It seems to roe 'that there has always been unfairness in connection with deliveries. It would appear that if you live in a large community it is possible to get better service than can be obtained in a rural community. To my mind that is an injustice, but as such it is probably comparable with everything else pertaining to rural and urban centres. For some reason it would seem that special privileges are given to those in the large industrial centres. Undoubtedly there are energetic people in the smaller towns-living there because of their association with small manufacturing concerns-who are making wonderful contributions to our national life.
A resume which I made of figures showing returns to the Post Office Department from smaller centres discloses that in some of the smaller places larger returns are made to the department than from large centres. For the benefit of hon. members from Toronto may I point out that for every dollar of expenditure in that city the return is only $2.84, whereas in the little town of Paris for every dollar of expenditure in the post office and sub-post office there is a return of $3.64. Even in the city of Ottawa, the capital city of Canada, the return is only $1.27 on each dollar expended. If we study the figures with respect to Vancouver we find that the post office in that city is running at a deficit, and
that we are losing about $100,000. Yet we continue to give the people in those centres the advantage of postal delivery, while people who live in small towns, showing post office revenues of $20,000 per year, have to trail down to a post office to get their mail. I suggest they are entitled to some consideration.
I doubt very much whether the expense would be much greater if better business principles were applied in connection with the administration of some of those offices. In my own constituency, if I may be permitted to make some personal observations, a great deal of rearrangement in connection with rural routes has taken place since I had the opportunity of representing the constituency. If those changes were summed up I believe they would show that the cost of the service is now much less than it was previously, despite the fact that there are several hundreds of people who, through a readjustment of routes and the elimination of certain other routes, are to-day receiving a better service than they did previously. Certain business principles have been applied, with the result that they are getting better service.
I would ask the acting Postmaster General to give these matters some consideration. In these particular times the changes I suggest might give employment to more people, would bring about a better service, and would have the effect of equalizing the service in the smaller towns with that in the larger centres. I believe these changes could be made without a great deal of extra expense. I understand the answer has always been that there would be additional cost, but I believe that by the application of proper business principles and a possible readjustment of some of the wage scales in larger centres, places where administration costs are far in excess of the service given, the smaller centres could be served. It seems to me that a better service could be extended to people who are just as worthy as those in the larger centres.


Mr. MacINNIS:: Mr. Chairman, may I
associate myself with the hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Thompson) and with other hon. members who have said a word for the rural mail carriers. I realize, as has been pointed out by the acting Postmaster General, that to change the system we now have would require a great deal of study and consideration. In other words the whole question is bristling with difficulties and would be somewhat difficult to change. But if I have appraised properly the temperament of the acting minister I would conclude that he is a person who would enjoy attacking a difficult problem. Because it was difficult it seems to me would

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be no reason why he should not tackle' it, provided he is convinced that the present arrangement is not equitable.
I believe all hon. members are convinced that the present arrangement is not an equitable one. The acting minister has said that the rural routes were given out on a basis of tender, in conformity with the principle applied in much of the government's business. I think the minister will agree with me that while competitive tenders may be quite equitable in some instances, they are not necessarily equitable in others. As a matter of fact, in a great part of the business which the government now gives by tender there is no real competition at all. I know enough of the business of giving out government and municipal business by tender to know that generally speaking there is very little competition; but here is a field where the competition is almost unlimited, and where persons for various reasons, sometimes not exactly because they need the business at all, tender at a very low figure that would not give anything like a decent standard of living if there were not some other sources of income on which to draw. In other matters, such as fair wage contracts, we have adopted a minimum wage to ensure that a person shall receive at least a subsistence standard of living, because we know very well that if there were no bar at all to competition in services of that kind,, employers of labour would get the services they require for almost nothing, particularly in times like these. If it is a good principle to apply in that direction, I see no reason why it should not apply in the matter of rural mail delivery.
The minister said that the practice has now become law, but our laws are not the laws of the Medes and Persians which cannot be changed. We change our laws every day, and let me say again that if the law is wrong, if it upholds or encourages a system that has become inequitable, there is no reason why that law should not be changed and every reason why it should be changed.
I am always surprised when I hear hon. members on both sides of the house talk about patronage. Members on this side criticize patronage, and then members on the other side say: "Oh, yes, but you indulged in patronage when you had the opportunity." Patronage apparently has never been considered on the basis of whether it is a good or a bad thing.


An hon. MEMBER:: Oh, yes.


Angus MacInnis: Oh, no, it has not. The hon. member for Kingston, I think it was, spoke about patronage and somebody replied: "You did it."


Mr. TOMLINSON:: What does the hon. member think about it?


Angus MacInnis: I think it is wrong, and I make no bones about it.


William Rae Tomlinson: You have no patronage.


Angus MacInnis: No, and I do not want any. I do not consider it wrong simply because I do not have any. There is a principle involved, and I have to consider the matter on that basis. I know there are many members in this house who have just as much patronage as my hon. friend who would like to get away from patronage altogether, and they express that opinion in his presence. I say again that patronage ought to be considered apart altogether from the fact that we can give out a little bit of a job, making big fellows of ourselves in our constituencies by doing that sort of thing. If I cannot get support without having to give out favours, I would not seek support at all, and I do not see why anybody else should try to get support through some little influence he may have in giving out patronage. Let us consider patronage as the evil thing it is and try to get rid of it. I would suggest to the acting Postmaster General that he has quite a number of competent officials in his department, and there are others throughout the service, who should give consideration to this grievance of the rural mail carriers so that before we deal with the post office estimates another year some way may be found of meeting the present situation. I am quite in agreement with the minister that it is a very difficult problem, but no problem is so difficult that a solution can not be found for it.


William Allen Walsh: May I revert to the question of the air mail services? I was speaking on the subject a few minutes ago and I would draw the attention of the acting minister to a clause in the Trans-Canada Air Lines Act, chapter 43, 1937, section 17, reading as follows:
If in the preceding year the corporation incurred a deficit, the rate or rates for the current year shall be fixed so as to produce an increase in the sum total to be paid on account of the said rates equal to the deficit in the preceding year.	*
If that clause could be amended, we would eliminate some of the difficulty so far as the post office is concerned. Then, in clause 16 of the same statute we have these two paragraphs:
(1) The governor in council may authorize the Postmoster General to enter into a contract with the corporation for the transport of mails by means of the Trans-Canada lines.

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(2) Such contract shall provide for the transport of mails at a rate or rates to be fixed, in respect of the initial period of operation, by the terms of the contract, and thereafter, as hereinafter provided by this act.
Has a contract yet been entered into by the Post Office Department with Trans-Canada Air Lines Limited for the current year?


William Daum Euler: The contract has not actually been drawn up, but the arrangement has been made. As my hon. friend will notice, there is an item in the supplementaries to provide for an addition to the rate per mile as contemplated in the main estimates. It was fifty cents a mile in the main estimates; but the government has decided that the rate shall be sixty cents a mile, and for that reason an additional 858,000 is provided in the supplementary estimates.


William Allen Walsh: The rate next year will be sixty cents a mile as fixed according to the terms of the act.


William Daum Euler: It will be sixty cents from the day of the inauguration of the service.


William Allen Walsh: How much of the vote for the Trans-Canada service is represented in the total of item No. 261?


William Daum Euler: I have not the exact figure at the moment, but there is an item of increase under "mail service by air" of $768,435, and almost the whole of that is due to the Trans-Canada air contract. It will depend, of course, on the day the service commences- we are expecting it to commence on July 1- and second, on the number of miles that will be travelled.


William Allen Walsh: The minister cannot break down this figure into increase in air mail service and increase in land mail service?


William Daum Euler: It would be only an estimate, after all, with regard to air mail service, because, as I said a moment ago, it is at sixty cents a mile, and it will depend directly on the number of miles the mail will be carried and the date upon which the service commences. As I said, we hope to have it commenced by July 1. If it is not begun by then, we shall not spend so much because there will not be the service.


William Allen Walsh: Can I make this suggestion to the minister in connection with the estimates of the Post Office Department for next year; referring to item No. 261, is there any particular reason why these two services should not be distinguished, by having one item for land mail service and one for air
51952-219J
mail service? I think the acting minister can see the reasonableness of a demand of that kind-


William Daum Euler: It is in here now.


William Allen Walsh: -because we have been discussing item No. 261 this afternoon, and the discussion has gone from the air to the land and back again; really we have been discussing two separate, distinct items.


William Daum Euler: If my hon. friend will look at the summary, he will see that "mail service by air" is listed separately, and "mail service by ordinary land conveyance" is listed separately, the former costing $1,573,000 odd and the latter, $6,381,000 odd. They are distinguished there.


William Allen Walsh: In order to separate the discussions next year, could they not be .put in two separate categories? We are discusing now, I assume, item No. 261.


William Daum Euler: They are separated there just as I read them.


William Allen Walsh: I know they are separated in fact; but as the minister knows, he has been receiving questions in connection with air mail, and he is receiving questions in connection with land mail, all under the same item, whereas if we had these two separated the discussions would also be separate; we should not be jumping from land to air.


William Daum Euler: That may be worth while considering.


Harry James Barber: The minister mentioned sixty cents. That means sixty cents per 100 miles?


William Daum Euler: No; sixty cents per mile travelled by the airplane carrying mail, for all mail.


Harry James Barber: It does not make any difference how much there is?


William Daum Euler: For all mail carried. It does not make any difference.


Harry James Barber: Are the western services now operating from Winnipeg to Vancouver? If so, what points in British Columbia are being served and what points are likely to be served?


William Daum Euler: There is a day service from Winnipeg to Vancouver touching Regina, Lethbridge and Vancouver.


Harry James Barber: Are there any other points in British Columbia that it is intended to serve direct?
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William Daum Euler: The plane does not alight anywhere between Lethbridge and Vancouver. Of course the Trans-Canada will provide a fuller service. It will be a night service. This is only a day service that they have now.


Mr. TELFORD:: May I suggest that the minister should consider the feasibility and the possibility of making the carrier service on the rural routes permanent appointments; that he should just adopt the present contractors and make them permanent? If that were done, if any carrier thought his contract was too low he could resign. Then his successor would be appointed either by the civil service commission or by the Postmaster General.


William Daum Euler: I would 'be very glad to take the representations and the arguments into consideration, and I certainly will refer them to the Postmaster General himself when he returns.


Mr. ROWE (Dufferin-Simcoe):: This is a most important department and a most important branch of the service. I wish further to emphasize what has already been said with reference to the low wages paid rural mail carriers and the service as it is affected by so-called patronage. In my opinion the low wages which are paid under our present tender system seriously affect the rural mail service. The acting minister looks surprised, but I think he will agree with me that the cheapest service is usually the slowest. Mail service, like most other services to-day, is improved by speed. Many mail carriers in certain districts where roads are suitable for cars, are unable to use automobiles merely because their salaries are so low. Very often they are driving lame or slow horses, and their equipment is of a very poor class, because they are unable to buy new equipment. I quite agree with what has been said 'by hon. members that at least a minimum rate of pay for rural mail carriers should be established. Personally I should be glad to see the rural mail carriers of this country given their appointments through the civil service commission. I realize that would not be so satisfactory to some who wish to retain the power to recommend mail carriers in their respective districts. This, however, is one of the most important branches of the department, and the low wages which have been and are being paid seriously affect the service. A rural mail carrier, who drives on all kinds and conditions of roads, winter and summer, is just as much entitled to a reasonable rate of pay as his urban brother who travels under more

favourable circumstances, very often and, in fact, mostly for a higher fixed rate. Proper service to the people, which must be the chief objective of the department, could be attained to a large extent were more modern equipment used by the rural mail carrier, but that is impossible under present conditions. The patronage system which has been in effect, also seriously affects the service to the boxholder. Very often a man is removed upon the recommendation of a government candidate, merely to make room for someone more favourable to the government.


Mr. FURNISS:: Is he necessarily removed?


William Earl Rowe: I think
he is unnecessarily removed by the political patronage system.


Stephen Joseph Furniss: The hon. member said he was removed on recommendation. As I understand it, the recommendation does not necessarily remove him.


William Earl Rowe: No, Mr. Chairman, but it puts the route-


Stephen Joseph Furniss: It puts him in competition.


William Earl Rowe: -puts the route up for tender.


Stephen Joseph Furniss: Competition.


William Earl Rowe: And very often nothing is taken into account other than the lowest tender, and very often the lowest tenderer is recommended for political purposes.


William Daum Euler: The lowest tenderer gets it by law.


Stephen Joseph Furniss: Does the hon. member
mean that the lowest tenderer gets the position or gets the contract through the recommendation of the member?


William Earl Rowe: I did not make myself as clear as perhaps I might have done. The lowest tenderer is given the contract providing-


Mr. REID:: He must be, by law.


William Earl Rowe: Not necessarily. The lowest tenderer is given the contract providing the sitting member or the government candidate does not oppose his appointment.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


William Daum Euler: I am sure my hon. friend does not wish to do an injustice, but that is strictly not the case.

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William Earl Rowe: It is, provided he is shown to be unfit to carry the mail.


William Daum Euler: I do not wish to interrupt, but this matter ought to be cleared up. There is absolutely no patronage in the allotting of tenders. Under the Post Office Act the lowest tenderer must receive the contract, unless in the opinion of the minister, it is not in the public interest that he should receive it.


William Earl Rowe: Who advises him?


William Daum Euler: An investigation must be
made regarding his credentials.


William Earl Rowe: I do not want to be misunderstood, nor do I want to misrepresent the case. Under the present system the lowest tenderer is accepted unless it is shown that the tenderer is unfit to carry the mail-if he is a criminal or is in any respect unfitted for the work, or has not sufficient equipment, or if he is not a responsible person. It happens very often that when the lowest tender is accepted the tenderer in a year's time finds that he has not the proper equipment and cannot afford to supply it. Over a number of years scores of rural mail carriers have come and asked me what they could do under such circumstances, because while they did not care to throw up the contract they could not afford to carry on. Quite often a man who has not had experience puts in a tender at a figure at which it is impossible for anyone to carry on, while someone else has the proper equipment and is prepared to take on the contract. Anyone can often see at a glance how impossible it is for a rural mail carrier to give proper service on the basis of the tender he has put in. I am sure the acting minister has had evidence of that.


William Daum Euler: There are cases.


William Earl Rowe: Certainly, and that in itself affects the service. I do not wish to say that a man's tender is accepted on a political recommendation, but I do believe that if two tenders were the same, some consideration would be given to the tender put in by the government candidate.


William Daum Euler: That very seldom happens, I imagine.


William Earl Rowe: The minister says it does not happen.


William Daum Euler: It has not come to my knowledge.


William Earl Rowe: The acting minister has not been associated with the department for any great length of time. I am glad he is introducing something new into the Post Office Department, because that probably has been the practice for a number of years. In my opinion the service in the outlying districts is as essential as that in the urban centres. There is one case in my own district which I wish to bring particularly to the minister's attention. I refer to the post office at Egbert, which has -been in existence for about sixty years. The store in which that post office has been located for a number of years changed hands recently and it is quite evident that the new purchaser did not please the government candidate. While there was no question about the gentleman's character- in fact politically I believe he is a supporter of the government-he was not recommended by the government candidate in the district. I have here a petition signed by no fewer than seventy-six or seventy-eight of the box-holders in the district, practically every one on the route. I will hand it over to the minister. The petition points out that their service will be severely impaired by the change. In the first place, it will add six or eight miles to the route served from Thornton post office. It is adding miles in a district which is difficult of transportation, a very hilly district and one in which it will be almost impossible for deliveries to be made until late in the day.
I appeal to the minister to give more consideration to the service in the outlying districts rather than to patronage, which unfortunately has so much to do with that service. I realize that in many districts it has been considered wise to eliminate small post offices. It has been part of the departmental policy to eliminate these small post offices where the service can be as efficiently carried on through the route. For instance, there may be a good road with five or six or eight miles of a drive, and the mail carrier may be using an automobile, so that he is able to give prompt and speedy service. But in outlying districts where the mail carrier drives all day, often missing train connections in -bad weather and under bad road conditions, it is difficult for any mail carrier to give that type of service to which the people are entitled. I urge the minister, in considering this petition, to take into account the features I have pointed out.
I am not going to delay the estimates at this time by reading the petition in full. I will simply present it to the acting minister in the hope that he will give it the most
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serious consideration. In conclusion, I wish to support the recommendation made by others in the committee, that the government seriously consider a different system with respect to rural mail carriers. Personally I do not believe that any rural mail carrier should be dismissed or his route put up for tender unless for some legitimate cause, unless it is shown that he is not giving efficient service to the boxholders, or unless it is proved by governmental inspection that his rate of pay is entirely too high. I venture to say that there are very few mail carriers in Canada whose remuneration is too high. On the other hand, too often, for very minor reasons a route is put up for tender and services are seriously impaired because there is so little understanding of what is involved in the upkeep of such equipment as will give the service required. I do think that if the rural mail service could be put under the civil service commission it would be far better for all concerned, both government supporters, and those whom the rural mail carriers are supposed to serve, and who are entitled to as efficient service, notwithstanding that they may be in the back concessions, as is given to urban dwellers by employees receiving better remuneration.


Mr. McCUAIG:: I should like to add
something to what was said by the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Rowe). He was very fair in saying that the person who received the postmastership did not receive it on account of politics, because the person who bought the store was a Liberal and had been all his life. But there is another element which was not explained by the hon. member, that is that the person who owned the store tried to make a profit by selling the post office. The former owner of the store died. Then the executor tried to sell the post office and the store. He found he could not sell the store alone because there was not enough revenue for a storekeeper in that small village unless the purchaser was guaranteed that he would also receive the post office. Therefore the executor was trying to benefit by the sale of the post office. The first tender for that store I understand was S800; they obtained other tenders, and the person who tendered the last time, thinking he would also receive the post office, offered about SI,400. Therefore the estate was trying to benefit by selling the post office.
I wish also to express my agreement with the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe in regard to a minimum rate. I have in my own
[Mr. W. E. Rowe.l
riding one rural mail route which has been carried by the same man for many years. The distance is about twenty miles and he receives S443. I do not know what he is in politics; I never saw him, but I wrote to him about a year ago telling him his contract was ready for renewal. I told him I did not think he was receiving enough and that it should be put up for tender again. He said he was afraid to throw it open for tender because people at the present time are tendering so low that he might not get it again.
I think there should be a minimum rate, and then a choice made from those who tender at that rate. We could decide whether to let the member or the defeated candidate make the choice or have it done in some other way. All we are interested in is good service and fair remuneration for mail carriers. As far as my riding is concerned, there have been very few dismissals in recent years. That is probably due to the fair-mindedness of the men who preceded me; they were Conservatives for many years, and I find that in very few cases did they ask for the mail route to be put up for tender. I have followed their example. In the last three years I think only two mail routes have been thrown open for tender; and I would advise hon. members that the fewer mail routes they open for tender the less grief they will have.


William Earl Rowe: I want
to answer the hon. member for Simcoe North (Mr. McCuaig) in regard to that estate. I realize that my hon. friend did not want to air any family quarrels from Simcoe here. I think his remarks might be misconstrued as suggesting that the estate took any undue advantage of the fact that the post office was in the store. I believe it is generally conceded that in a community where there is practically no other place to put a post office it is usually left in the store. In fairness to the estate I wish to say that the estate received no assurance from anyone that the post office would be left there, and sold the property only on the ordinary assumption that it would be. Then the purchaser of the store pointed out to me that the government candidate in the riding had assured him that there would be no change. So, if there was any misrepresentation, it certainly was not on the part of the estate. I think the hon. member did not wish to convey the suggestion that the estate had taken that advantage.


Mr. GOLDING:: In view of the opposition to the patronage system as expressed by the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Stewart) and the

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hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Rowe), I should like to ask them why they supported the late government in throwing into patronage all post offices with revenues running from 8400 to 83,000. Prior to that action it was only post offices with revenues under $400 that came under the patronage system. In view of their opposition now to patronage in regard to rural mail service I should like to know why they supported that policy.


Mr. LAWSON:: May I answer that, as I happen to be in possession of the facts?


William Henry Golding: Yes; the hon. member was one of them.


James Earl Lawson: I happened to be chairman of the committee on the civil service which sat that year, which committee consisted, according to my recollection, of four Conservative members, two Liberal members and one Labour member. That committee, after inquiring very exhaustively into the post office situation, came to the conclusion that it was not possible to administer the appointments to these post offices with revenues ranging between $400 and $3,000 on the so-called merit basis as required by the Civil Service Act, and that attempting to do so was bringing the whole merit system in this country into disrepute. The committee, therefore, recommended unanimously that the step referred to by the hon. member be taken, and since it was the unanimous recommendation of the committee to the government of that day the government saw fit to enact measures necessary to implement the report of the civil service committee.


William Henry Golding: If my hon. friend thinks it was not possible to operate the merit system in regard to offices with revenues ranging between $400 and $3,000, does he think it would be possible to apply it in connection with rural mail services?


James Earl Lawson: Frankly I would not like to answer my hon. friend's question, because I do not know what the subject of the discussion is. I came in just a few minutes ago; I did not hear the discussion. I rose merely to answer the question asked by my hon. friend because I happened to be the chairman of the committee which made the recommendation.


Mr. LOCKHART:: There is one matter to which I would invite the attention of the minister. I think the departmental officials have knowledge of it. While evils may creep in, if honest men are administering the department they can easily find ways to overcome such difficulties as have been referred to
in this discussion. A man in my neighbourhood had a rural mail contract and carried on his work faithfully and well. He has a small piece of improved road, but mostly his route is on cross concessions where the mail has to be carried by a light type of horse. These mail carriers probably use machinery and a heavy type of horse in their farming operations. This man wrote to the department, in view of the fact that the contract was coming up for renewal, stating that he would have to get a light horse and some new equipment in the way of a conveyance in order to carry on, and asking if there was any way by which he could be assured that the contract would be renewed, after having carried on the work faithfully for the term of the contract. I think the minister will agree that under the present regulations the departmental officials could do nothing else than write back and say that if the person having the patronage for the constituency recommended that the contract should be opened for tender, that would have to be done. In other words this man could not receive any assurance such as he asked.
I want to concur in a great deal of what has been said to the effect that this service should be systematized so that a man doing good work would be continued in his position, but in particular I wanted to point out to the acting minister these specific instances where men could not be given any assurance whatever but had to wait until the contract expired. If somebody said the contracts were to be thrown open for tender, these men could make no provision for new equipment.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: I commend to the acting minister and his department very earnest consideration of this difficult problem in the hope of devising some method other than that at present in vogue, which I understand we inherited from the former administration, by which rural mail carriers may receive adequate compensation for the important duties they perform. In my riding there are very many rural mail carriers. In my investigation of this matter, my connection with the renewal of old contracts and the granting of new ones, it seems that the men performing this service have been woefully underpaid. We have extreme climatic conditions, under which sometimes they have to open up their own roads in the winter time, and they perform this service for a mere pittance. Perhaps no administration can be held responsible for this state of affairs, but with the brains of the present administration and the officials in the department we ought to be able to find a remedy.
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The hon. gentleman who suggested a minimum mileage rate, as I understood him, offered a suggestion that might help. The difficulty is that a minimum mileage rate in some parts of Ontario where there is an allyear service would be entirely inadequate as a standard for a similar service performed in some other part of this province. I do feel, however, that a body of men who are in his majesty's service, handling his majesty's mail, performing one of the most loyal and important public services that the country demands, ought to have better treatment than they are receiving at the present time. In saying that I desire to make it clear that I do not intend to indict any administration or any particular body of officials. But, if with their knowledge of the working of the system as it has been in vogue for the last twenty years, something can be done for the betterment of the lot of our rural mail carriers, I should endorse it most heartily.


Mr. RICKARD:: I would like to say a
word about these rural mail carriers and the Post Office Department generally. I agree with the other hon. members who have spoken in regard to the mail carriers. I believe they are a class of men who are entirely underpaid. How that situation is to be remedied is up to the department, and I believe it may be very hard to find a solution.
What I rose to say, however, was this: Since I have been in this house, particularly on the estimates of the Post Office Department, we have heard a great deal about patronage, principally from the party to my left. Today the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Rowe) made particular reference to the dismissals that have occurred in some post offices. I should like to bring to the attention of the committee one case that occurred in the county I represent concerning an appointment made under the previous government in 1034. We had a postmaster receiving a salary of less than S3,000 a year. It is true that he was an old man, seventy-six or seventy-seven years of age, but in the office he had two very competent girls, one of whom happened to be from a Liberal family and the other from a Conservative family. There was quite an agitation to have this man dismissed, but apparently the officials of the department were none too anxious to do that. However, there was sufficient pressure brought to bear upon the government of the day and this man was dismissed, on the recommendation of the president of the Conservative association and of the member for my constituency then sitting on the government side. As I say, this man had two girls working in the office. The new appointee
[Mr. Slaght.l
was the secretary of the Conservative association for that riding, a returned man who had been in the constituency only a year or two. When he was appointed he dismissed the Liberal girl but retained the Conservative girl. If that is not party politics I do not know anything about it. I have nothing against the present postmaster, who is a first clijss man. When I was elected I was asked to do my best to have him dismissed, but I refused to do so because he is a good man, carrying on the work efficiently.
I could go further with this matter, but I do not think it necessary. However, if any hon. members wish to look up the records of the department they will see exactly how this dismissal was made. On many occasions in this house when the estimates have been under consideration I have heard discussions of patronage, but certainly that patronage existed from 1930 to 1935.


William Earl Rowe: I did not suggest that patronage existed only on one side or under only one party; I was pointing out the viciousness of the principle that has been in force for many years.
With further reference to my own riding I wish to point out to the acting Postmaster General that the post office at Egbert is not in the riding of my hon. friend from Simcoe North; it is in the riding of Dufferin-Simcoe. Even though I have handed the minister the petition, I should like to know whether any recommendation has gone out for the closing of the Egbert post office.


William Daum Euler: That post office is being reopened.


William Earl Rowe: On behalf of the petitioners I wish to thank the minister.


Howard Charles Green: To get back to the air mail service, would the minister give the figures for mileage and weight of air mail carried during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1938? How do those figures compare with last year?


William Daum Euler: The amount was 1,260,909 pounds.


Howard Charles Green: And the mileage?


William Daum Euler: I regret I have not the mileage.


Howard Charles Green: Could we have placed on Hansard a list of the air mail services? That was done last year, and for purposes of comparison it would be very useful.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: That will be satisfactory.


William Daum Euler: I shall be pleased to do
that. The list is as follows:

Supply-Post Office
Air Mail Service Fiscal Year 1937-38
Service
Atlin-Telegraph Creek	
Cen. Man. & N. Ont. Mining Areas-
Kenora- Red Lake	
Sioux Lookout-Ca8ummit Lake


Howard Charles Green: Earlier this afternoon the minister said there was to be a new air mail route from Vancouver to Fort St. John, connecting there with the Edmonton-Yukon air line. I wonder whether or not that has been definitely decided. I hope not, because there has been serious trouble in connection with the matter. I believe opinion on the coast is strongly in favour of having the air mail carried by the direct route from Vancouver to the Yukon, going up through Quesnel, Hazelton and Telegraph Creek. I understood the department was going to have a survey made of the latter route, which is quite a bit shorter and which during the last seven or eight months has been successfully flown by passenger planes. I should like to know whether the department has decided not to have the mail flown by that direct route.


William Daum Euler: I regret to tell the hon. member the decision has been made. I do not know that I should express regret. I can give the reason why that which the hon. member has described as the direct route- which I am told is not really shorter-has not been accepted by the Post Office Department. I am told that the comparative risks of flying near the coast, through those ranges of mountains, are so great that the decision was made to carry it the other way. I am told, further, that the route which has been chosen is really the shorter one.


Howard Charles Green: The route chosen is on two sides of a triangle; I do not know how it could be shorter than the direct one. Was an investigation made of the routes this spring?


William Daum Euler: Of course the thought is
that the route ties up Vancouver with the Peace River district, a condition which I believe has been desired by the people of Vancouver. At any rate, the decision has been made, and I may make that statement definitely to the hon. member. It has been decided to adopt the route I have indicated, and I believe the most important reason for doing so has been that it would be too dangerous to fly along the route suggested by the hon. member, one which passes through the mountains.


Howard Charles Green: What is the contract price,
and what number of flights have to be made?


William Daum Euler: The contract has not actually been made yet.


Howard Charles Green: Well, cannot the minister
give us the price? Apparently it has been decided to send the mail that way, and the name of the firm to do the flying is known.


William Daum Euler: My information is that
there are two tenders, although I have not the figures before me. One is considerably lower than the other. Perhaps I should not have made a statement in the matter, but I believe one figure is something like thirty cents and the other about forty cents. So that there would be no doubt as to who would receive the contract. Undoubtedly the lower tender would be accepted. The recommendation has not yet been prepared to give to council.


Howard Charles Green: Has there been any survey
made this spring of the direct route by any department of the government?


William Daum Euler: There is a report on both
routes from the civil aviation branch, a branch of the Department of Transport.


Howard Charles Green: Is that a new report or
an old one? Was it not made a year or two ago?


William Daum Euler: I am afraid I cannot tell
my hon. friend that. But hon. members are aware that the civil aviation branch of the Department of Transport has not been in existence very long, so that I should judge it would be fairly recent.


Mr. MacNEIL:: On what evidence did
the minister condemn the more direct route from Vancouver to the Yukon suggested by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) ? On former occasions representations were made, and the assurance was given that the whole matter would be carefully explored. We are given to understand that a private company has undertaken survey work and has demonstrated successfully that the more direct route can be flown safely. I now ask that some consideration be given to this matter by the department. Has any survey been made recently to indicate clearly that the direct route is out of the question?


William Daum Euler: I believe I answered that
question a moment ago. I stated that we had had reports from the civil aviation branch of the Department of Transport. As a result of that it was decided to take the route I have indicated, rather than the one through the mountains.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Supply-Post Office
To provide for payment to W. J. A. Stewart, a former employee of the Halifax post office, of the amount of $3,509.65, representing the difference between the amount of civil pay he received between the 25th September, 1915, and the 20th July, 1919, while absent on active military service overseas, and the amount he is entitled to under the provisions of order in council of the 11th August, 1914, P.C. 2102, $3,509.65.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: Is this a new item, or
is it voted annually?


William Daum Euler: In a sense the item is
somewhat peculiar. It has to do with a Mr. Stewart who enlisted for overseas service. He was supposed to have enlisted on December 25; therefore the military pay would be deducted from his civil service pay. Recently it was discovered that he actually had enlisted on September 25, 1915, and therefore no deduction should have been made. This matter involves the sum of S3,509.65. After all an agreement was made with the man, and it is only fair that he should be paid. That is all there is to it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pensions and other benefits: To provide for the payment of compassionate allowances to employees injured while in the performance of their duties, or to other persons injured while performing duties in any way connected with the postal service, or in protecting His Majesty's mails, or to the dependents of such employees or other persons who may be killed while so engaged; payments to be made only on the specific authority of the governor in council, $5,000.
Archibald Hugh Mitchell: How much of this item was not expended last year?


William Daum Euler: Last year there was no expenditure. The year before there was one of $750 and the year before one of $3,500. I hope none of this amount will be expended; it is voted to cover cases of emergency.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Departmental administration, further amount required, $16,800.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: What is the explanation concerning this item?


William Daum Euler: It is in connection with the increase of the weight of parcel post. It is intended to inform the public concerning the facilities which have been given, and in connection with certain charges for the issuing of a special booklet dealing with the increase in the weight of parcels carried by the department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Post offices, including salaries and other expenses, headquarters and staff post offices, and supplies and equipment for revenue post offices, further amount required, $335,000.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: I notice there is a substantial increase in this item, which one would have expected to see in the main estimates. Why did it not appear in the main estimates?


William Daum Euler: This is due to more or less of a change in policy. At one time the night service men were paid on the basis of seven hours instead of eight hours, seven hours night service being regarded as equivalent to eight hours day service; but under the last administration, for purposes of economy, that practice was discontinued, and it has now been restored, at an additional cost of $110,000. The $160,000 is for further temporary' assistance.


Harry James Barber: Is this further temporary assistance required by the new regulations closing post offices on holidays? Is it to keep the service going on holidays?


William Daum Euler: The answer is in the affirmative.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Are the salaries of all the post office employees back on the original basis before the five per cent cut was made?


William Daum Euler: They have all been restored. Mr. LOCKHART: In every department? Mr. EULER: Yes.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Thank you.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Inspection and investigation-further amount required, $8,000.
William Daum Euler: This is to provide for an overdraft in previous years.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air and land mail services-further amount required, $168,000.
Howard Charles Green: What arrangements have
been made for transatlantic air mail service?


William Daum Euler: No actual arrangements have yet been made. The British government is still making experimental flights, and the matter has not been brought to a definite conclusion.


Howard Charles Green: Is it expected that there will be any air mail flown this summer?


William Daum Euler: Quite doubtful.
Supply-Post Office


Howard Charles Green: Are there any negotiations under way for transpacific air mail service?


William Daum Euler: No; we are not at the moment doing anything on the pacific.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pensions and other benefits-payment to the widow of the late Lome C. Pethick, a former employee of the Orillia post office, $1,000.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: Would the minister explain this? It seems to be an extraordinary item.


William Daum Euler: The details are as follows;
It is to provide for payment of $1,000 to widow of the late Lome C. Pethick, former employee of the Orillia post office, who, as a result of a fall on a slippery sidewalk while on his way to work, broke two ribs which punctured his lungs, and resulted in death on 26th December, 1937, from pneumonia.
Mr. Pethick was employed as a temporary letter carrier in the Orillia post office from 9th April, 1937, to 26th December, 1937, date of death, from circumstances set forth above. He was a returned soldier.
The department understands that the widow has been unable to establish any claim against the city of Orillia due to lack of witnesses, and she is not eligible for compensation under the Workmen's Compensation Act as the injury was not sustained while Mr. Pethick was on duty, but on his way to work. It is recommended that, on compassionate grounds, an amount of $1,000 be paid his widow, who is represented to be in destitute circumstances.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I am afraid this opens up a line of cases that may cause the minister some difficulty in the future. Does he know of any precedent for a case of this kind? It often happens that a person is injured on his way to work, and at the moment of receiving the injury is not an employee of the government or a company or an individual for whom he may be working, and if he has no action against the city, for example, on account of the condition of the sidewalk, he is without legal remedy. Such cases occur quite often. Does the minister know of any case where similar action has been taken?


William Daum Euler: No; I do not know; but the man was on his way to work, and he might be regarded as being actually in the service of the department. Quite frankly, I would say that it is a case of showing perhaps too much sympathy, but we felt we might perhaps err on the humanitarian side. That is the whole story.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

Thursday, June 2, 1938