[Stage Direction]
Mr. ERNEST BERTRAND (Laurier) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 28, to amend the criminal code.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, subsection 6 of
section 236 of the criminal code has to do with the exceptions in favour of lotteries. One of these exceptions is found in paragraph (e), as follows:
(e) the Art Union of London, Great Britain, or the Art Union of Ireland.
This exception is now obsolete. However, all hon. members know that a number of sweepstakes are now being held throughout Canada. It is the intention of the bill to repeal paragraph (e) and replace it by another which would permit the recognition of sweepstakes by the governments of the provinces, the benefits to go to universities and hospitals. The bill speaks for itself.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. CHURCH:: Will any investigation be made here into whether a similar state exists in Canada as in United States about huge income tax frauds, as requested on page 3355 of Hansard, 1936?
Questions


Mr. ILSLEY:: Continuous investigations to prevent fraud are carried on by the income tax division.


CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD-A. M. SHAW
Mr. COLDWELL:: 1.	For what period, if any, was A. M. Shaw
a member of the Canadian wheat board, (a) in 1936; (b) in 1937?	.
2.	What salary, expenses or emoluments did A. M. Shaw receive for his services with the Canadian wheat board, (a) in 1936; (b) in 1937?
3.	For what period, if any, was A. M. Shaw
employed by the Department of Agriculture in 1937?	.
4.	What salary, expenses or emoluments did he receive for his services with the Department of Agriculture in 1937?


Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	(a) All the year; (b) All the year.
2.	(a) Salary $15,000 travelling expenses $696.13; (b) Salary $4,309.25; travelling expenses $657.42.
3.	From January 22, 1937, to December 31, 1937.
4.	Salary for above period $7,937.86; Travelling expenses during same period $2,741.50.


TORONTO POST OFFICE
Mr. CLARKE (Rosedale):: What revenue was derived by the government at Toronto central post office on Christmas day, December 25, 1937?
Mr. EULER; Incidental to other necessary work, employees on duty gave a restricted service at the general delivery wicket between 7 a.m. and 12 noon.
The revenue collected was $22.69.
The employees on duty were also engaged on box sortation, etc.
Complete deliveries were given in all sections of the city. Had this service not been given, the mails which were sorted Friday evening would have been delayed until Monday morning.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: What was the additional cost of the operation of the holiday postal delivery in Toronto for the year 1937?


Mr. EULER:: Estimated cost, $14,266.01.


Mr. CLARKE (Rosedale):: 1.	What were the number of additional temporary employees in the Toronto post office during the Christmas rush of 1937?
2.	What number of these employees wore returned men?


Mr. EULER:: 1.	2.723.
2.	933.


MAPLE SUGAR AND SYRUP PRODUCTION
Mr. LACOMBE:: 1.	What quantities of maple sugar and of maple syrup were produced in Canada during the years 1932, 1933, 1934, 1935, 1936, and 1937?
2.	During the same years, what were the
exports from Canada of maple products:	(a)
to the several dominions and to the British Empire; (b) to the United States?


Mr. EULER:: 1. Production-
Years	Maple Sugar Pounds	Maple Syrup Gallons1932.. ..	. .. 7.260.000	1.709,9901933.. ..	.... 5,785,130	1,262,3151934.. ..	.... 4.940.690	1,838,4001935.. ..	.... 6.538,960	2250,7691936.. ..	.... 9,231,803	2,022,7191937.. ..	.... 4,413,147	1.232,069
2. Domestic Exports from Canada of Maple Sugar and Maple Syrup (calendar years, 1932 to 1937).
Maple Sugar
Empire countries lb United Kingdom	.Lb.	1932 30,639Irish Free State	% .Lb.	5,333British East Africa.. .	$ .Lb.	British South Africa .	$ .Lb.	British India	$ .Lb.	Bermuda	$ .Lb.	Newfoundland	$ .Lb.	Australia	$ .Lb.	New Zealand	$ .Lb. ?	Total Empire countries.	.Lb.	30,639I	5,333
Yeai's ended December 31
1933	1934	1935	1936	193736,111	24,718	34,981	24,843	28,1795,312	4,079	5.513	3,623	5,056581	80	50	14	1.162	378	371	939289	57	56	11520	4	40	28	28516	8	4848	3.173	8.095	15 07210	366	937	1,82730	120	5715	18	8610	1522	2837.321	24.758	38,590	34,090	45.1985.611	4.095	5,949	4,734	7,160

Questions
Maple sugar-
Foreign countries
To United States	Lb.
. $
Other foreign countries. .Lb.

Total foreign countries.. Lb.

Grand total exports (maple sugar)	Lb.
Maple syrup- Empire countries
To United Kingdom	Gal.

Irish Free State	Gal.

British South Africa..Gal.

Bermuda	Gal.

British India	Gal.

British Guiana	Gal.

British Honduras	Gal.

Barbados	Gal.

Jamaica	Gal.

Trinidad and Tobago. .Gal.

Other Br. West Indies. .Gal.

Newfoundland	Gal.

Australia	Gal.

Fiji	Gal.

New Zealand	Gal.

Total Empire countries.Gal.

Maple syrup-
Foreign countries
To United States	Gal.

Other foreign countries.Gal.

Total foreign countries.Gal.

Grand total exports (maple syrup)	Gal.
Years ended December 31
1932	1933	1934	1935	1936	19373,363,180	2,323,570	3,607,198	1,710,850	8,207,523	3,456,148600,067	382,600	557,170	217.976	1,289,776	508,4085,357	9,911	7,849	22,647	28,087	44,834860	1,264	781	4,048	5,303	6,3603,368,537	2,333,481	3,615,047	1,733,497	8,235,610	3,500,982600,927	383,864	557,951	222,024	1,295,079	514,7683,399,176	2,370,802	3,639,805	1,772,087	8,269,700	3,546,180606,260	389,475	562,046	227,973	1,299,813	521,9284,083	2,351	1.747	2,454	2,667	2,55411,244	4,860	3,842	5,889	6,503	5,9802	4	14	155	78	8730	282	96	200118	178	86	222	469	433318	420	200	438	1,093	1,0189	8	5	14	16	17	....9	312	63	....	7	....1	5	5	12	8	10	211	26	20	4327	54	49	1012	10	13	53	17	27	114	78	1527	93	47	ii>i	i 56	8970	203	101	200	278	17615	30	25	38	....6	....	12	52	156	84	43376	378	172	1,0614,228	2,647	1,961	3,168	3,538	3,65511,632	5,530	4,280	7,302	8,299	8,5704,896	30,277	105,137	204,918	10,703	4.0356,014	26,396	112,933	210,083	20,461	12,23979	70	36	83	64	126154	147	52	151	153	3044,975	30,347	105,173	205,001	10,767	4,1616,168	26,543	112,985	210,234	20,614	12,5439,203	32,994	107,134	208,169	14,305	7,81617,800	32,073	117,265	217,536	28,913	21,113


PREFERENCE ON IMPORTATIONS THROUGH CANADIAN PORTS
Mr. ISNOR:: Has the present government taken any action which would result in our ports losing the ten per cent preference on goods entering Canada by being conveyed directly into a Canadian seaport, as stated by the right hon. leader of the opposition in this house on the 31st day of January of this year?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No. The customs tariff (sections 3 and 5) still provides that all goods, to be entitled to the benefits of the British preferential tariff, must be conveyed without trans-shipment from a British country into a sea, lake or river port of Canada, and that on such goods, with certain specified exceptions, the duties computed at British preferential tariff rates shall be subject to a discount of ten per cent.
Radio Broadcasting



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. COLDWELL:: 1.	Was the government approached to assist in financing the trip of Canadian athletes to Australia?
2.	If so, what contribution, if any, was made?
3.	Was the dominion government approached to finance representatives of the Canadian chamber of agriculture to the producers empire conference in Australia?
4.	If so, what contribution, if any, was or will be made?


Mr. RINFRET:: In order to reply properly to this question it is desirable that a copy of some of the correspondence be tabled. I suggest that it be made an order for return.



CANADA-UNITED STATES TRADE AGREEMENT

Mr. CAHAN:: In the matter of the trade agreement between Canada and the United States of America, which came into force on January 1, 1936:
1.	If the exports from Canada during the calendar year 1936 on which reductions of United States customs duty were made by the said agreement be described as class A, and those exports from Canada on which no reduction of United States customs duty was made be described as class B; what was the value of exports in class A as compared with the value of exports in class B in each of the three calendar years 1935, 1936 and 1937?
2.	If the imports from the United States into Canada during the calendar year 1936, on which reductions of Canadian customs duty were made by the said agreement, be described as class C, and those imports from the United States into Canada on which no reductions of Canadian customs duty was made be described as class D; what was the value of imports in class C as compared with the value of imports in class D in each of the three calendar years 1935, 1936 and 1937?



DUTIABLE IMPORTS

[Stage Direction]
Mr. McDonald (Souris):
1.	What is the total amount of goods which entered Canada during the fiscal year 1936-37, upon which duty was paid?
2.	What amount of duty was collected?
3.	What is the total amount of goods upon which the sales tax was levied in the fiscal year of 1936-37?
4.	What amount was paid?
5.	What is the basis of valuation of goods which are imported for manufacturing purposes?

Mr. BLACKMORE:: 1. What is the total amount of money spent under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act, in each of the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta ?
[Mr. Ilsley.l
2.	How much of this money was spent, in each of the above mentioned provinces, in actual assistance to farmers for dams and irrigation projects?
3.	How much was spent in administration in each of the above mentioned provinces?



CIVIL SERVICE SUPERANNUATION

Mr. WARD:: 1.	What number of civil servants now in the service are over 65 years of age, and how many are over 70 years of age?
2.	How many civil servants now in the service have completed their payments to the superannuation fund, by virtue of the thirty-five year contributing clause in the act?
3.	How many civil servants have received promotion, the promotion giving increased salary, since they ceased making contributions to the superannuation fund?



RADIO BROADCASTING


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Transport) moved:: That a select committee be appointed on radio broadcasting to consider the annual report of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and to review the policies of the corporation with special reference to revenues, expenditures and development, with all the powers vested in the standing committees under standing orders and the resolution passed by this house on the 7th February, 1938.


Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition):: Might it not be desirable to indicate in the motion the number of members that will comprise the committee? Otherwise it seems to me that a further motion of a different kind will have to be made.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I understood that a second motion naming the members of the committee would be required.


Richard Bedford Bennett: So it is.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I thought the number could be specified then.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The usual custom is to designate the number at this stage.


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: Not necessarily.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think it is necessapr, otherwise how are you going to deal with it? How will you know how many to appoint? It is quite all right for the clerk to make the statement I heard him make just now, but that is not an accurate statement. The rule of this house has been to name a committee consisting of seven, nine, eleven or so many members, so that we shall know how many to appoint when the committee is set up.

Validity of Quebec Statute


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The rule is that if there are to 'be more than fifteen the number must be mentioned.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The number has to be settled by some action of this house.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There will be another motion naming the members of the committee.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That will have to appear on the order paper. Otherwise it would not be necessary to have it on the order paper at all. That is the point.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That standing order 63 of the House of Commons, relating to the appointment of standing committees of the house, be amended by adding to the standing committees of the house for the present session a standing committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled by the government, to which will be referred accounts and estimates and bills relating thereto of the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Government Merchant Marine for the present session, for consideration and report to the house; provided however that nothing in the resolution shall be construed to curtail in any way the full right of discussion in committee of supply; and that the said committee consist of Messrs. Barber, Beaubier, Both well. Deachman, Elliott (Kindersley), Emmerson, Ferland, Fiset (Sir Eugene), Fraser, Hanson, Heaps, Howard, Howden, Howe, Ivinley, McKinnon (Kenora-Rainy River), McLarty, Maybank, Parent (Quebec West and South), Stewart, Vien, Walsh and Young.
Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition); There is one question that arises out of this motion. Would it not be desirable to refer the accounts of the trans-Canada airlines to this committee, in view of their relationship to the Canadian National undertaking?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a subsidiary company
of the Canadian National Railways and automatically the accounts would be referred to this committee.


Richard Bedford Bennett: In view of the statute
passed at the last session it could hardly be described as a subsidiary in the sense in which that term is used in respect to the other companies included in the Canadian National setup. The trans-Canada airlines is a separate organization and in that sense is not a subsidiary. For instance, some lines of railways are subsidiaries, the capital stock being all
owned by the company, but this company is covered by a separate statute of this parliament. If the minister says that this motion is intended to cover it, that answers my question.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is certainly the intention
to submit the accounts of the trans-Canada airlines to this committee.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day.
Mr. E. J. POOLE (Red Deer):: Would the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) state if it is the intention of the Canadian government to support the pro-fascist policy of the British national government, as clearly shown by the forced resignation of Mr. Anthony Eden?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I say to my hon
friend that to my mind his question is highly improper and is one that should not be answered.



NATIONAL REVENUE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day.
James Lorimer Ilsley: I should like to direct attention to page 107 of the votes and proceedings of yesterday. A motion by Mr. Massey for Mr. Betts is recorded there as having been passed. As a matter of fact it was not passed by the house and I ask that it be so considered. If any correction is necessary, I ask that it be made.



VALIDITY OF QUEBEC STATUTE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day;
Richard Bedford Bennett: On February 8 I asked the right hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) whether or not the government would hear counsel when the matter of considering the disallowance of the so-called padlock law of Quebec was before it, and he indicated that he would give me an answer at an early date. Since then I have looked into the matter a little and I find that in many cases the minister
Trans-Canada Air Lines

of justice sitting alone has heard counsel; in one or two cases the prime minister sat with him, and in another case, a committee of the cabinet sat to hear argument. Apparently there is a long line of precedents to indicate that counsel has been heard on such applications, and I was wondering if the minister has arrived at a conclusion.


Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: I am sorry I have not answered my right hon. friend earlier. I have found that on two occasions a committee of the council heard interested parties in connection with the disallowance of provincial legislation, but in both cases private companies were interested and had asked to be heard. The legislation did not concern the citizens at large; in both instances it had to do entirely with the rights of private corporations.


Richard Bedford Bennett: One case was the Commercial Travellers of British Columbia in 1905.


Ernest Lapointe: That was one of them. I have no objection at all to receiving any counsel who wants to present argument in the matter, but as far as delegations are concerned, I shall not receive any.



DOMINION FRANCHISE ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. FERNAND RINFRET (Secretary of State) moved the second reading of Bill No. 2, to amend the Dominion Franchise Act.
He said: This bill is similar to the ones we have passed at the two preceding sessions. While the Dominion Elections Act of 1934 is still on the statute book, it has been inoperative as far as by-elections are concerned because in the past two sessions we have passed special bills dealing with this matter. There would be no purpose in revising annually the permanent lists; it would cost a large amount of money. This bill is in exactly the same terms as those of similar bills approved by the house at previous sessions, except for the year.
Hon. H. A. STEWART (Leeds):: Can the minister tell us when we may expect to have before us the Dominion Elections Act, which has been before a committee of the house for the last two years?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I am not in position to give the exact date, but I can assure my hon. friend that it is the intention of the government to introduce as soon as possible a new act based on the work done by the committee.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.
[Mr. Beanutl.J

[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Transport) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend The Trans-Canada Air Lines Act, 1937, to empower the governor in council to authorize the minister to enter into a contract for the extension of the Trans-Canada Lines of aircraft beyond the confines of Canada.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Will the minister explain the resolution, please?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The amendments are very simple. They are to correct two omissions in the original bill. By agreement made some two years ago with Great Britain, Ireland and Newfoundland, Canada is obligated to take a proportion of stock in the Transatlantic Air Service. The agreement provided that each government should nominate an aviation company which would assume the government obligation in that regard, and the amendment provides that authority shall be given to Trans-Canada Air Lines to purchase the government's share of stock in that company. When we were discussing the bill itself last year I mentioned that this would be the company entrusted with that service, and in setting up the capital of the company, funds were provided to carry out this obligation, but we omitted to provide in the bill that the company should have the right to purchase the government share of stock in the transatlantic company.
The second amendment is also to correct an omission. It will be recalled by hon. members that the route of Trans-Canada Air Lines was originally laid out across the state of Maine between Montreal and Moncton, New Brunswick. A strict reading of the act that was passed last year would prohibit Trans-Canada Air Lines from operating outside Canada, and the amendment makes a very minor alteration to permit the company to operate outside of Canada, either on the main transcontinental route or with such international connections as the government may designate in the operation of the service.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I suppose the approval of other countries is given as a matter of course.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, with respect to international routes. We have had one conference with the United States already.

Inspection and Sale Act
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Howe thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 29, to amend the Trans-Canada Air Lines Act, 1937.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



INSPECTION AND SALE


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to regulate the inspection and sale of binder twine and salt, to establish weight of bushel for certain commodities commonly sold by the bushel and to authorize the appointment of inspectors and analysts.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.
Mr. STIRLING:: Would the minister make a statement on the resolution?


Mr. GARDINER:: Mr. Chairman, there has been a statute on the books for many years- an act respecting the inspection and sale of certain staple commodities. The purpose of the proposed bill is to repeal that act and to renew where necessary the provisions, with respect to inspection and sale, of the act that was previously on the statute book.
For a number of years the act has been administered by the Department of Agriculture, since 1924, I think, although in the terms of the act itself it is stated that the minister is the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Many sections of the act have been reenacted by different pieces of legislation which are also now administered by the Department of Agriculture. Such parts of the act as have been reenacted will be completely repealed by this bill, and where it is necessary to continue sections they will be continued in the legislation to be based on this resolution. It will also provide for more appropriate regulatory measures for the sale and salvage of binder twine, for the establishment of legal weights per bushel of commodities commonly sold by measure, and for the repeal of provisions duplicated by more recent legislation or rendered obsolete by changed conditions.


Mr. SENN:: Where did the request for this change regarding binder twine originate?


James Garfield Gardiner: The provision with
respect to binder twine modifies slightly the present legislation with regard to binder twine that is being salvaged following fires. There is, I might say, a proposed amendment to
the section as in the bill dealing with binder twine. This has been proposed by the firm of Harold and Thompson, binder twine distributors of the city of Regina. They have gone over the legislation that is proposed and have made certain suggestions as to changes, which will be brought before the house when that section is under consideration. But I am told that the legislation itself has been considered by concerns that are handling binder twine across the country.


Mr. BAKER:: Does this mean the appointment of government inspectors to inspect the sale of binder twine?


James Garfield Gardiner: There are inspectors under the original act, and inspectors will be continued under this legislation.


Richard Langton Baker: Will any more inspectors be appointed?


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not think there will be any in addition to what we have.


Richard Langton Baker: Will the minister state that definitely?


James Garfield Gardiner: I shall be able to make a definite statement when we come to that section.


Richard Langton Baker: I am thinking of the "machine" there is in Saskatchewan, you know.


Mark Cecil Senn: Will this bill go before the agriculture committee?


James Garfield Gardiner: If the house considers it advisable, I have no objection to its going to committee. I do not think there is anything in it that requires such action.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Gardiner thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 30, to regulate the inspection and sale of binder twine and salt, and to establish weight of bushel for certain commodities commonly sold by the bushel.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



SHOP CARDS REGISTRATION


[Stage Direction]
Hon. FERNAND RINFRET (Secretary of State) moved the second reading of Bill No. 22, respecting the registration of shop cards by labour unions.
He said: This is a bill to enable the registration of shop cards by labour unions with the Department of the Secretary of
Shop Cards Registration
[Stage Direction]
State. This is not a new matter. As far back as the session of 1927, on March 25, the then minister of labour, Hon. Peter Heenan, introduced a bill to amend the Trade Mark and Design Act to permit the very same object [DOT]we have in view in the present bill. But in 1932 the former secretary of state had the house adopt, under the title of the Unfair Competition Act, an act defining the wares that may be registered by trade marks, and although that measure did not positively so state, it excluded by its very operation the registration of shop cards and union labels that were not actually attached to wares.
The bill introduced by the former secretary of state and passed was the sequel to an international conference which took place at the Hague in 1925, and the bill was passed pursuant to the conclusions arrived at at that conference, where it had been expressly desired that the trade mark should apply to goods and to wares and not to any quality of work irrespective of the object or ware. The definition given in the Unfair Competition Act, 1932, of a trade mark was as follows:
"Trade mark" means a symbol which has become adapted to distinguish particular wares falling within a general category from other wares falling within the same category, and is used by any person in association with wares entering into trade or commerce for the purpose of indicating to dealers in. and/or users [DOT]of such wares that they have been manufactured, sold, leased or hired by him, or that they are of a defined standard or have been produced under defined working conditions, by a defined class of persons, or in a defined territorial area, and includes any distinguishing . [DOT]guise capable of constituting a trade mark.
By the act of 1932, therefore, the registration of a trade mark was confined solely to wares or goods, and it made impossible any further registration of shop cards or union labels such as had been provided for by the [DOT]amending bill of 1927.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Is not that the definition -given by the international conference?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Yes.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Well, how can we depart from it?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: That is the reason why
the bill as introduced now is a different bill .[DOT]altogether. It provides for similar procedure, but distinct, and has nothing to do with the Unfair Competition Act, which deals strictly with trade marks as provided for at the conference to which I have just alluded.
Between 1927 and 1932, when the new act was introduced and passed, a certain number of registrations of shop cards and union labels were made. There were not a great number

of them, but it may be of interest to the house to know that in 1928 eleven such registrations took place; in 1929, five more; two in 1930, and two in 1931, a total of twenty registrations of shop cards or labels made during that period. Inasmuch as the registration is made for fifteen years, those still exist with the department. It was provided in the act of 1932 that no further registration should take place except within the meaning of the act, but it maintained the registrations that had already been entered. Section 23, subsection 1 of that act is as follows:
The register now existing under the Trade Mark and Design Act shall form part of the register maintained pursuant to this act, and, subject as hereinafter provided, all entries therein shall hereafter be governed by the provisions of this act, but shall not, if properly made under the law in force at the time they were made, he subject to be expunged or amended only because they might not properly have been made hereunder.
It will therefore be seen that the registrations entered before 1932 are still in force.
The object of introducing this bill is to meet wishes repeatedly expressed by labour unions and labour associations when they have come before the government. I shall not quote them all, but I may perhaps allude to the memorandum of legislative program presented to the cabinet by the executive council of the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada on Friday, December 18, 1936. The paragraph relating to this bill reads as follows:
Further Protection for Union Services:-At present the Unfair Competition Act protects the use of the union label, but only as far as wares are concerned. We ask extension to cover registration of shop cards, emblems and union services of whatever nature.
This request was repeated year after year by the same council when it appeared before members of the government. I quote also from a memorandum submitted to us by the All-Canadian Congress of Labour on January, 17, 1936. As regards this particular question it states:
Union Labels. While the union labels of organizations with headquarters in the United States are accepted by the customs authorities as evidence of the country of origin of merchandise imported into Canada, the amendment to the Trade Mark & Design Act in 1927 to permit the registration of union labels in Canada was virtually repealed by the Unfair Competition Act of 1932.
The new regulations under the act-both those directly prescribed by the law and those arbitrarily imposed by administrative order-[DOT] make registration futile, and they consequently operate to the detriment of Canadian unions. It is therefore requested that the right to make effective registration of union labels be restored by an amendment to the Unfair Competition Act.

Shop Cards Registration
I may say for the sake of correction that in the memorandum the Unfair Competition Act is not mentioned; it is the Copyright Act. That, however, is evidently a mistake. It has not seemed desirable nor even possible to amend the Unfair Competition Act to meet the wishes of these labour associations, but a separate bill altogether seems preferable.
I need not say any more than that the procedure which we have foreseen is similar in every respect to the one that obtained for the registration of trade marks proper. For the reasons I have indicated it will have to be distinct, but it will be similar, and registration will take place with the Department of the Secretary of State, although it is provided in the act that that may be changed [DOT] by order in council if that branch of the service should be later displaced.
When we are in committee and are considering these points one by one it will be possible to explain the bill further. Our only purpose is to meet the wishes of the labour unions and associations and to restore a condition that existed until 1932 and I believe was not done away with for any purpose except to have our trade mark act perfectly in accordance with the wishes expressed at the international conference at the Hague in 1925. Looking over the discussions which took place at the time I fail to see that there was the least desire to do away with the registration of shop cards, and I hope that this bill will meet with the approval of the house.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is the minister sure that that right was taken away?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I know that no sustained effort has been made by any union since 1932 to register, and it is the opinion of the department that registration cannot take place at the present time. At any rate, there will be no room for doubt if we pass the bill.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The principle of the bill does not admit of great controversy. The statute of 1932 was one dealing with unfair competition, its purpose being to give effect to the terms of an international arrangement. I had not thought, until the minister said so, that the effect of the passing of that statute wal to lessen the right to register under the Trade Mark and Design Act. If the minister says he is advised that the effect of the passage of that act, based upon the international arrangement, was to repeal the right that had theretofore existed, obviously it is the duty of this parliament to reinstate that right. Frankly, however, I should like to have had some more striking authority than that which the minister has indicated as to
the right having been destroyed by the passage of the Unfair Competition Act. That is the only point I have to make at the moment.
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of Labour): This bill appears properly in the name of my colleague the Secretary of State (Mr. Rinfret), but it is concerned with a matter of particular interest to labour organizations in Canada. I should like to emphasize again what he has said, namely, that the purpose of the bill is not to create any innovation but rather to restore a privilege which was enjoyed by labour organizations under the Trade Mark and Design Act of 1927, but of which they were deprived apparently under the Unfair Competition Act of 1932.


Richard Bedford Bennett: How does that become apparent, may I ask?


Mr. ROGERS:: The officials of the Department of Labour are advised by labour organizations that since the Unfair Competition Act of 1932 it has been possible to register union labels but not to register shop cards with reference to service unions as distinguished from unions engaged in the production of goods and wares. That is the distinction that has been made, and labour organizations have approached the government on various occasions asking that legislation of this kind be brought forward in order to remove the anomaly which apparently exists. It seemed to us that the request was a reasonable one in the circumstances and I hope that the proposals made by the Secretary of State will receive the favourable consideration of the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.
On section 1-Short title.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Now that the matter can be discussed and answers given more freely with the bill in committee, I should like to know what the authority is for the statement that the passing of the Unfair Competition Act repealed the antecedent right of registration. This matter came up on a previous occasion, I remember, the question being raised whether the complaint that the right did not exist was well founded, and I know of no refusal by any department of the public service to register as theretofore. It may be that the officials have taken the view that under the act they cannot do it. If so, that makes it quite clear. But if the right exists, the passing of this bill into a statute is merely placing upon the statute book something that is already there. I am not ex-
Shop Cards Registration

pressing an opinion, because I have not looked into the matter recently, but I do recall the point being made by delegations that came down and read from their brief certain grievances which they alleged they had and thought should be remedied 'by legislative action. My memory is that the secretary of state at the time, who was responsible for the passing through this house of the Unfair Competition Act, based upon the international convention of 1925, did not wholly agree with that view. Whether or not his view extends to the point of indicating that the statute is broad enough to cover it, I cannot say; but I am always reluctant to see a bill placed upon the statute book if there is already ample provision to meet the situation.
If the minister says that the law officers advise that this bill is necessary, then there should be no difficulty in dealing with the matter promptly.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: The authority, in the first place, is the Unfair Competition Act of 1932 itself. The definition of trade mark in paragraph (m) of section 2 says very clearly-I read it a moment ago, but perhaps I read it too fast-


Richard Bedford Bennett: I followed it.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: It defines trade marie as follows:
(m) "Trade mark" means a symbol which has become adapted to distinguish particular wares falling within a general category from other wares falling within the same category, and is used by any person in association with wares entering into trade or commerce-
And so on. I think it is quite plain that it has always been so interpreted in the department, that that definition means an object. For example, we will register a union label of a printing office 'because it is printed on paper, and therefore there is an object which can come within the definition of this act. Section 23, which I have also quoted, plainly states that from that time a certain category of trade marks may still be registered but others cannot. The intention evidently was to exclude from further registration, marks of a certain category, and these in my opinion were shop cards and labels which did not fall within the definition of section 2. That is what the act says.
As regards further authority, it is the experience of the department that ever since 1932 not one registration has taken place. It has been the constant interpretation of the act by my predecessor who put through the act in 1932, up to 1935, and by my officers since I resumed office in the Department of the Secretary of State, that we could not register

any trade mark or sign which is not in the form of an object or a piece of goods.
I may assure my right hon. friend that this bill has been recommended by the law officers of the departments interested, both of labour and of the secretary of state, because it was found absolutely necessary, if registration of shop cards was desired, that legislation of this kind be enacted. But I am willing to admit without discussion that it may not have been at all the intention of the former government to bring about any such condition of affairs as now exists. We are not trying in the least to do anything but provide for registration of shop cards, which as I say has not taken place since 1932.


Mr. FACTOR:: Several representations
were made to me by labour unions in Toronto in reference to this matter. As I understand the situation, under the present Unfair Competition Act, with respect to goods manufactured, trade marks can be registered, but trade marks with respect to services rendered by labour unions which have their own particular design for an individual union would not be accepted by the department. I was told that under the former trade mark and design act-I have not been able to verify it-a union could register a trade mark or shop card designating its services rendered, but under the present act that right was taken away. This bill, as I read it, merely restores the right which formerly existed, giving to every union which has a specific design for work performed by it the right to register that design.
The only criticism I have, if it can be called a criticism, is that under the section of the Unfair Competition Act it says in respect of goods that they have been manufactured under a definite standard and definite working conditions. I would ask the minister whether on an application for registration of a shop card the department will inquire as to working conditions prevailing in that union before registration, or will mere application by a labour union as defined in section 2 entitle the union to register its shop card? A trade mark in the usual sense of the term denotes registration of a specific article which is manufactured under certain working cqp-ditions and to a certain standard. Under this bill, will any group of men organizing themselves into a union to deal with their employers be entitled to registration of their shop card without the department being satisfied that the working and labour conditions in that trade are satisfactory? It may be of course that the constitutional element again comes into play, that the federal de-

Shop Cards Registration
partment has no jurisdiction to inquire into labour conditions; but perhaps the minister will clear this point up for me.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I think I can reply at once that there is no doubt that a labour union, merely by observing the conditions of the bill, could obtain registration of their shop card. We should have to be satisfied in the first place that they are a labour union, and that of course would come under the Labour department.


Mr. WALSH:: Does the minister anticipate any difficulty in the case of a shop where two or more labour unions might be concerned, each desiring to register its own particular design or card?


Norman McLeod Rogers: A shop card will not be exhibited except with the consent of the proprietor; therefore it would be a matter for the proprietor to determine whether or not in the situation mentioned by the hon. member it was desirable that the shop cards of both unions should be exhibited, or none. There is nothing of a coercive nature in the bill.


William Allen Walsh: The proprietor might, if he so desired, refuse to accept any?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes.


William Allen Walsh: He might also be put in a position of being prejudiced in favour of one union or another.


Norman McLeod Rogers: If it caused him inconvenience undoubtedly he would change the practice.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It might be well to observe that in the Unfair Competition Act there was a definition also of design mark. There were three definitions; first, of design mark, second, of word mark, and third, of trade mark. The word "trade mark" is defined by the statute as was read by the minister. "Design mark" is defined as follows:
(c) "Design mark" means a trade mark consisting of an arbitrary and in itself meaningless mark or design, or of a representation of some object or objects, or of letters or numerals in series or otherwise, or of a combination of two or more of the foregoing elements, and depending for its distinctiveness upon its form and colour, or upon the form, arrangement or colour of its several parts, independently of any idea or sound capable of being suggested by the particular sequence of the letters and/or numerals, if any, forming part thereof, or by their separation into groups, and includes any distinguishing guise capable of constituting a trade mark;
That is, capable of constituting it, of being made into a trade mark. Then there is a definition of "distinguishing guise", and lastly there is a definition of "word mark":
(o)	"Word mark" means a trade mark consisting only of a series of letters and/or numerals and depending for its distinctiveness upon the idea or sound suggested by the sequence of tile letters and/or numerals and their separation into groups, independently of the form of the letters or numerals severally or as a series.
The language of the new bill limits this shop card very greatly. If the minister will be good enough to observe, the word "shop card" means:
.	.	. any design, emblem, figure, sign, seal,
stamp, ticket, device or other form of advertisement adopted by a labour union.
This is not a question of trade mark; it is a question of advertisement. I think the clause of the statute is broad enough, so far as the statute of 1932 is concerned, to permit of the registration of a design mark, but it is quite clear that this is not dealing with a trade mark, or design mark, or word mark. A shop card deals with only one thing-advertisement.
Paragraph (e) of subsection 2, which I am reading in connection with the definition, says that a shop card means any other form of advertising adopted by a labour union. This is the definition of an advertisement.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Or identification.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It does not say that.


Norman McLeod Rogers: An emblem.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It does not say anything about identification here. It talks about it purely as an advertisement. That is the reason I read the two definitions. It says:
"Shop card" means any design, emblem, figure, sign, seal, stamp, ticket, device or other form of advertisement adopted by a labour union.
And that is registerable. As what is it registerable?-A trade mark, design mark or word mark. The definition refers to a stamp, ticket, or device. This does not cover a combination of words, unless they are worked into a sign or symbol of some sort. Obviously the governing words are "form of advertisement." I repeat that my difficulty is how to show that this is not covered by the language of the statute-because this never was a trade mark. We must remember that we have an international convention on the word "trade mark" by which we are bound. The first conference took place in 1883. Then there was a revision in 1900, followed by the Washington conference of 1914 and the Hague conference of 1925.
The word "trade mark" as used in international law and as used by us now is defined by international agreement or understanding This is not a trade mark.
Shop Cards Registration


Norman McLeod Rogers: It is restricted to wares, as well.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, because the very essence of it implies that it should be. Let us not confuse the terms; I entreat the minister not to confuse a shop card with a trade mark.


Samuel Factor: It was so interpreted.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They have no relation, one to the other.


Samuel Factor: It was so interpreted in the former act.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No; if the hon. member will take the trouble to look it up he will find that is not so. They were registered under it. The question of a union label is something attached to wares. The Minister of Labour has properly pointed out the underlying principle. It is attached to a commodity; the word "wares" is used in the statute. When those words are attached to the commodity it then, by international agreement, may be designated a trade mark. But a shop card, which is defined in this measure as an advertisement, could never be, under any form, made into a trade mark.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I agree with my right hon. friend to a certain extent. That is the reason we have a distinct bill to deal with shop cards-because they are not trade marks.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am making another point, altogether.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I think I may be able to satisfy the right hon. leader of the opposition on the point he raised a moment ago. Actually in the legislation of 1927 there is specific reference to a union label.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, and that is preserved in the Unfair Competition Act.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I doubt if it is.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Well, here is the section-


Norman McLeod Rogers: May I continue: Union label is so defined:
Any mark, term, design, emblem, figure, sign, seal, stamp, diagram, ticket, device or form of advertisement, adopted by a labour union.


Mr. DUNNING:: That is in the old law.


Norman McLeod Rogers: It is in the legislation of 1927. It so happens that the Unfair Competition Act, in addition to defining " trade mark " as applying exclusively to wares, goes farther than that and repeals certain sections of the previous legislation, including the section which gives the definition to which I have referred. Therefore we were in this position, that under the Unfair Competition Act one could register union 
labels as applied to wares, but one could not register a shop card which had relation solely to a service union.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Section 61 of the Unfair Competition Act, which is the repealing section, reads:
(1)	Any application for the registration of a trade mark received by the registrar at any time before the expiration of a month from the day upon which this act comes into force shall be dealt with in accordance with the provisions of the Trade Mark and Design Act, and registrations made pursuant to such applications shall for the purposes of this act be deemed to have been on the register at the date upon which this act comes in force.


Norman McLeod Rogers: New registrations.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes. But subsection 2 says:
(2)	Subject as aforesaid, sections three, four to twenty-one inclusive, twenty-three and fifty-three of the said act are repealed and sections forty-two to fifty-two inclusive are amended-
Not struck out.
-by striking therefrom the words "trade mark" and "trade marks" and any other words exclusively relating to the said words.
(3)	For the purpose of sections twenty-two, twenty-four and twenty-five of the said act the expression "union label" shall mean a registered trade mark adopted for the purpose of indicating that the wares bearing it have been produced under defined working conditions or by a defined class of persons.
And then, section 62:
62. This act shall come into force on the first day of September, 1932.
I think the significance of that makes it quite clear what the purport of the act is. The word " trade mark " in some cases is used in the sense of an adjective, if I may use the term, as describing a mark of a trade. The union label is preserved by subsection 3 of section 60 of the Unfair Competition Act. But the words " design mark " and " word mark " are given a definition in this statute, which was arrived at after conference with all the nations of the world.
The minister makes it perfectly clear that the explanatory note is, I submit with deference, based upon an entire misconception of the situation, for the word " trade mark " is a word which is defined by international arrangement, and has the meaning given to it in the statute which we passed based on international agreement. I think no hon. member will suggest that the word " trade mark " can be applied to an advertisement. One might copyright an advertisement, but it is obvious that he cannot trade mark it, for the reason given by the minister a moment ago. The essence of trade marks is something else, as the statute makes clear.

Shop Cards Registration
Needless to say I am wholly in accord with the provision of the statute with respect to the question of registration, but it does not touch trade marks at all. To introduce a section of the act of 1932 defining a trade mark for the purpose of saying that it excluded something else is an entirely false argument. It leads to a wrong conclusion.


Charles Avery Dunning: In practice, that is what happened.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No.


Charles Avery Dunning: Ever since 1932.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The word "trade mark" never applied to shop cards.


Norman McLeod Rogers: The act of 1932 repealed the definition section of the act of 1927 which gave a wider scope to the term "union label."


Richard Bedford Bennett: Following the last preceding meeting at Washington the view with respect to many matters was modified. As far as I remember, that was done in 1925, before I came back to this house. I cannot for a moment permit myself to give adhesion to the view that you can by any flight of fancy designate an advertisement as a trade mark.


Charles Avery Dunning: The bill does not do that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No, but the explanation upon which it is based is founded on that misconception. That is the point exactly.


Samuel Factor: Subsection 2 of section 5 of the act of 1927 reads as follows:
Any union label heretofore or hereafter adopted by any labour union to designate, make known, or distinguish any goods, wares, merchandise, or product of labour, wholly or partly manufactured, produced, or prepared by the labour of such union, or of any member or members thereof, may be registered for the exclusive use of such labour union in the manner herein provided; and the said union shall, for the purpose of this act, be considered the proprietor of such union label.
The definition of union label is as mentioned by the Minister of Labour. The Unfair Competition Act -repealed that section 5.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The Unfair Competition Act preserves the rights of the holders of union labels in terms.


Samuel Factor: Quite so.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is not that the language?


Samuel Factor: But it does repeal the section.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It repeals the section in every other respect but it preserves the right of the . holders of labels in terms.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Trade marks only. I really think that is the explanation. Under the Unfair Competition Act one could not do otherwise than define a trade mark as something, applying exclusively to wares, as the right hon. gentleman has just said. Some time after this legislation came into effect it was realized by the labour organizations that it was restrictive in character, consequently applications were made fo<r the registration of shop cards as distinguished from union labels. The whole purpose of the legislation now before the committee is to correct that inadvertent omission.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is not a question of inadvertence; the question goes deeper than that. The question is whether the basis upon which this is predicated has any foundation. There never was a time when a shop card was a trade mark.


Norman McLeod Rogers: It came under the provisions of the act of 1927.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Which was predicated upon the treaty of Washington and not upon the findings of the Hague tribunal which gave a new definition to the word "trade mark."


Norman McLeod Rogers: There is no reference in the act of 1927 to the treaty of Washington.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No.


Norman McLeod Rogers: The Unfair Competition Act of 1932 refers to the international convention.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: The leader of the opposition has just read the repealed section of the 1932 act. Subsection 3 reads:
For the purpose of sections twenty-two, twenty-four and twenty-five of the said act the expression "union label" shall mean a registered trade mark adopted for the purpose of indicating that the wares bearing it have been produced under defined working conditions or by a defined class of persons.
If you turn to sections 22, 24 and 25 you will find that they deal with registration. There is no doubt in my mind that the act of 1932 rendered inoperative any registration of union labels which did not apply to wares, but I want to make it plain that I do not consider for one moment that it was done for that purpose. Experience has shown us from year to year that unless a bill such as this is adopted it will not be possible to register shop cards.


Mr. TAYLOR (Nanaimo):: Are not shop cards symbols of identification rather than forms of advertising?


Norman McLeod Rogers: I should say they are symbols of identification used for purposes of advertising.
Shop Cards Registration


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Under the section of the former act which the hon. member for Spadina read it would seem to be quite clear that a union label was attached to goods or wares and as such perhaps might be considered to be a trade mark. However, a shop card is not attached to wares.


Norman McLeod Rogers: They were registered under the provisions of the previous act.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I do not care about the registration. The hon. member for Spadina was referring to a label attached to wares.


Samuel Factor: This act does not make a shop card a trade mark.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: It would not be a trade mark. It seems to me that this is new legislation.


Charles Avery Dunning: It distinguishes them.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: It is not attached to wares and merchandise at all, so it cannot be a trade mark within the definition of trade mark.


Charles Avery Dunning: I cannot go into the legal niceties of the matter, but from the standpoint of practical administration, it is a fact that the department and the unions concerned have considered, doubtless on sound legal advice, that since 1932 they could not obtain registration of their shop cards.


Richard Bedford Bennett: As what?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: As such.


Charles Avery Dunning: As such. Repeated requests have reached the government to permit some form of registration of shop cards. This bill does not attempt to define a shop card as anything but a shop card.


Richard Bedford Bennett: As an advertisement.


Charles Avery Dunning: It provides the machinery for the registration of what are definitely known as shop cards that will be used for the purposes that shop cards are used for in the general acceptation of the term, for advertising if you like.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It says advertisement in the bill.


Charles Avery Dunning: That is mentioned in the bill. I do not think any harm can be done by passing this bill. It will clear up what those concerned have deemed to be a disadvantage under which they have been labouring since 1932.


Mr. HEAPS:: In a sense they may be advertisements, but quite often they are more than that. A union label cannot always be

attached to union wares. For instance, you could not attach a union label to a union hair-cut or a union shave.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Hair is not wares.


Abraham Albert Heaps: When you go into a union barber shop you do so in the expectation of getting a union hair-cut or a union shave, but there have been instances where fake cards have been displayed in shops. People have gone into these shops and have thought they were getting union wares or union services. If this bill is allowed to pass, practices of that kind will be obviated. Under the present legislation there is no way of getting after people who display these fake advertisements or fake union cards. This legislation was asked for, I believe, in the last submission of the Trades and Labor Congress.


Norman McLeod Rogers: In 1936.


Abraham Albert Heaps: And in 1937.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes, it was repeated in 1937.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I do not think there is much danger in legislation of this kind going on the statute book.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 and 3 agreed to.
On section 4-Application for registration.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Will the minister give us some assurance that this will not necessitate the appointment of a new official, but that the same registrar will discharge the duties?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I would say that the duties can well be carried out by the present staff.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 5-Grounds for refusing registration.
Grote Stirling: The minister has stated repeatedly that no registration has taken place since 1932. Can he say that no application has been made and refused since then?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I could not at the moment give a positive answer to that. I know that applications have been made to the department seeking information and otherwise.


Samuel Factor: Personally I do not like paragraph (e), which says:
If, in the opinion of the minister, the registration of the shop card is otherwise on public grounds objectionable.
That leaves it entirely open to the minister-he knows I am not speaking in any personal way-to discriminate between one applicant and another. It does not specify the public grounds on which it might be ob-

Shop Cards Registration
jectionable, but just says "on public grounds." Now "public grounds" is a very elastic term. As the minister knows, there are at the present time and under present conditions rival unions in almost every municipality, and under this section the minister may grant the application of one union and say that he considers the granting of an application from another union objectionable on public grounds. Will he enlighten me on paragraph (e) ?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Before the minister answers, I was going to draw the attention of the committee to the provisions of the Unfair Competition Act to meet the point the hon. member for Spadina has mentioned. I regard that as being unsound legislation, and I agree with what the hon. member for Spadina has said. In the Unfair Competition Act it is provided:
(1)	Upon the refusal of the registrar to grant, wholly or in part, any application authorized by this act to be made to him, the applicant may appeal from such refusal to the Exchequer Court of Canada within sixty days from the date upon which notice of the decision was despatched to him by the registrar or within such further time as the court may allow, either before or after the expiry of the sixty days aforesaid.
(2)	Notice of such appeal shall within the time limited as aforesaid be filed with the registrar and with the registrar of the Exchequer Court of Canada and a like notice shall within such time be given by registered mail to such persons as may appear from the register to be the owners of any trade marks which have been referred to by the registrar in the decision complained of.
Then subsection 3 deals with public notice by advertisement of the hearing of the appeal, and subsection 4 with abandonment of the appeal.
I wholly agree with the hon. member for Spadina that it is not fair to the minister himself to be placed in the position where he has to decide that a particular application is unsound on public grounds. There should be the right, as there is with respect to trade marks, of appeal to the exchequer court, and I suggest that an amendment be prepared to give a similar right of appeal in matters that arise under this act, to that given in like matters that arise under the Unfair Competition Act. I do not think the suggestion is an unfair one.


Charles Avery Dunning: A case came to my attention last year which would be covered by paragraph (e), if it is allowed to remain; but if it does not remain some form of words would be required other than those suggested by the right hon. leader of the opposition to deal with the matter. It was the case of a union publishing a card which contained material reflecting on another union. I suggest
that such an application could not very well be refused by the minister under paragraphs (a), (b), (c), or (d) but could be under (e), as being objectionable on public grounds. I think members of the committee are aware of instances in which that sort of thing has been done. While I sympathize with the removal of this responsibility from the minister-and perhaps the bill may be left in committee for consideration of that point- I think there should be some means of avoiding registration of cards which contain material critical or misrepresentative of another union.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Has the minister not the right to refuse in such cases now?


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not know of its being covered by anything else.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is covered by paragraph (e).


Charles Avery Dunning: Oh, you would leave that in?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, I certainly think that should be there. The Minister of Finance did not follow me.


Charles Avery Dunning: The right hon. gentleman was supporting the hon. member for Spadina, who wanted that paragraph left out.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I say that oaragraph (e) should remain, but with the right of appeal, because there are many cases in which it might be very desirable to have it.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Perhaps we might pass section 5 and agree to let the bill stand in committee to consider that point. An appeal is provided for in another part of the bill dealing with cancellation, and the two might be considered together.


Richard Bedford Bennett: As a matter of fact that part was taken from the Unfair Competition Act, but the sections that give the right of appeal against the minister's exercise of his discretion do not appear here. It might be well to combine the two so that there would be the right of appeal not only in the case of the minister's refusal to grant the application but with respect to cancellation as well.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I might say that my experience in the administration of other acts makes that suggestion quite welcome.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 6 to 10 inclusive agreed to.
On section 11-Certificate to be received as prima facie evidence.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Would it not be better, Mr. Chairman, to r.-'ad the headings of the



Shipping Act-Marine Hospitals
subsections instead of taking the whole section at once? The rules require the sections to be read. No one wishes to put the chairman to that inconvenience, but I think it might be well to call the headings of the subsections.


The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:: I have been doing that fairly well throughout.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 12 agreed to.
Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I move, Mr. Chairman, that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The motion is not
debatable, of course, but just before it is put, may I point out that section 12 so grievously contravenes Liberal doctrine that it is hardly thinkable it should be here. It confers upon the executive the power to make rules and regulations and to determine what fees shall be paid. It goes so far as to deal with questions of finance and revenue. I expected to hear the minister who sits for a Vancouver riding raise his voice in humble entreaty against such abuse of executive power.


Charles Avery Dunning: The motion is not
debatable; we cannot reply.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Quite.
Progress reported.



CANADA SHIPPING ACT, 1934 SICK MARINERS AND MARINE HOSPITALS-LEVY, COLLECTION AND REMISSION OF 8HIP DUES

[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of Pensions and National Health) moved the second reading of Bill No. 23, to amend part V of the Canada Shipping Act, 1934.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the Chair.
On section 1-Duty on all vessels unless exempted.
Mr. POWER:: This section provides a clarification of existing legislation. The clause amended has been rewritten because it gives rise to certain confusion in the minds of the officers who are administering it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is no change, as I understand, in the amount of money to be collected?


Charles Gavan Power: No.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is only a question of clarifying the conditions under which the payments shall be made?


Charles Gavan Power: Exactly. Perhaps I had better explain paragraph (c). There is less

money to be collected; I do not want to lead my right hon. friend into error. Under the former act, under the definition of "vessel," a scow was included, but under this bill a scow which carries no crew will not have to pay sick mariners' fees.


Mr. KINLEY:: With regard to clause (b), will the minister explain wherein the amending clause changes the existing law?


Charles Gavan Power: It really exempts certain ships. Owing to the definition of the word "voyage" which was contained in the old act, a vessel coming to Canada and unloading its cargo at, let us say, Three Rivers, finishing its voyage at that place and then going on to Montreal to take on a new cargo and start a new voyage, would have been obliged to pay dues twice. Now it will be considered that the term "voyage" will cover not only the discharging of the cargo at Three Rivers, but the taking on of a new cargo at Montreal.


Richard Bedford Bennett: A ship pays once with respect to each arrival in Canada?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


John James Kinley: That is all very well with regard to a ship that is on schedule. But if the minister will look at the amendment he will find it imposes this obligation, that the ship "is returning or proceeding immediately to a place out of Canada." The old act reads that "the ship is a ship which came from a place out of Canada and has paid dues on the same voyage in a previous port of call in Canada." Suppose a ship returns to Canada and comes to Halifax. She unloads part of her cargo and goes to Lunenburg. She is not on schedule, but is laid up, looking for cargo; that vessel must pay a second time according to the amendment, although *under the old law she would not have to pay.


Charles Gavan Power: She would not pay a second time unless she started a new voyage. She would not pay again if she went to Lunenburg to lay up.


John James Kinley: I think so. "A ship which came from and is returning or proceeding immediately to a place out of Canada." A ship is not returning to a place out of Canada unless she has a charter party or is on schedule. The example I have suggested is that of a ship which returns to Canada, comes to a home port, and may be laid up in port, and for that reason is obliged to pay dues the second time.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not think the hon. member's interpretation is correct. If the ship came to Lunenburg and from there proceeded to engage in the coasting trade, mariners' dues would be exacted. That, I believe, has

Shipping Act-Marine Hospitals
been the custom; perhaps it will be clearer under the present legislation. If a vessel comes from a transatlantic port to Canada, and, finishing its voyage in Canada, discharging its cargo, undertakes to engage in the coasting trade, even though it remains in the same province and goes from Halifax to Lunenburg, Lunenburg to Sydney, etc., it will pay duty three times during the one season. But that is the present custom; there is no change so far as that is concerned. The object of this amendment is to exempt certain vessels from this duty, not to increase its application.


John James Kinley: I am glad to hear the minister's explanation; that is what I am really interested in. But I am bound to say that this underlined portion which states "a ship wrhich came from and is returning or proceeding immediately to a place out of Canada" does, it seems to me, impose a responsibility on the ship of proceeding on another foreign voyage immediately, and if the vessel is out of charter or is not on schedule it seems to me she is obligated to pay dues a second time.


Charles Gavan Power: Unless the ship was engaged in trading in the second port she would not be obliged to.


John James Kinley: It is all right, if you say that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The difficulty of the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg is with the word "immediately." The case as put is this. A ship comes from Liverpool to Lunenburg, and if she returns from Lunenburg to Southampton, she has paid dues once and that is the end of it. If, leaving Lunenburg, she goes down to Shelburne and proceeds abroad from there, it is understood she pays dues only once, and this is to protect her against having to pay them twice. I apprehend that the difficulty-and I think there is some force in the point made by the hon. member-is in the word "immediately," because it is said that the ship has now come from Liverpool to Lunenburg and she returns to Southampton, a port out of Canada, or she proceeds "immediately" to a place out of Canada: the proceeding "immediately" to a place out of Canada does make it a little difficult.


Charles Gavan Power: But no vessels pay duty when they proceed from one port within a province to another port within a province unless they are engaged in the coasting trade.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Quite. There is no doubt about that. I was thinking of some form of words other than "immediately."
51952-49J


Charles Avery Dunning: The following words
qualify it.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Supposing the ship to which the leader of the opposition has referred were to be laid up in Halifax for six months and then go out to Southampton, would she have to pay twice?


Charles Avery Dunning: No; she has paid duty "since arrival in a previous port of call in Canada."


John James Kinley: Read the previous clause with it.


Charles Avery Dunning: The previous section
deals entirely with coasting trade.


Charles Gavan Power: Perhaps I may make it clear if I explain to the committee just what vessels do pay and when they pay.
1.	Compulsory payment by vessels from foreign ports entering maritime ports of Canada and ports in Manitoba and Ontario on Hudson and James bay.
2.	All vessels engaged in the coasting trade of Canada which ply between maritime provinces.
3.	All vessels engaged in the coasting trade of Canada which have made one payment. A vessel must complete the three payments at the next two succeeding ports if it is engaged in the coasting trade.
Of course, all hon. members who have any knowledge of the maritime provinces know that fishing vessels may pay prior to undertaking the first fishing voyage of the calendar year, provided they are registered.


John James Kinley: And get the benefit.


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


John James Kinley: If a vessel, coming from outside Canada, calls at Yarmouth, say, for the purpose of discharging cargo or in order to get away from the weather, and then goes to Lunenburg, payment is made at Yarmouth and she is exempt when she goes to Lunenburg. Under the new law, if she goes to Lunenburg and proceeds immediately to a place outside Canada she does not have to pay, but if that condition does not exist she does have to pay.


Charles Avery Dunning: The qualifying words follow. She has paid a duty since arrival in a previous port of call.


John James Kinley: Yes, she paid when she came to Yarmouth; but when she goes to Lunenburg the customs officer demands payment again. If the ship is leaving Canada immediately the ship is exempt; otherwise it must pay.

Narcotic Drug Act


Charles Gavan Power: No, because she would not be engaged in the coasting trade of Canada. Under subsection 12 of section 2 of the act, the coasting trade of Canada includes carriage by water of goods or passengers from one port or place in Canada to another. In the instance the hon. gentleman has mentioned by way of illustration, the vessel is not carrying goods or passengers from one port or place to another, but is simply calling at a port for the purpose of laying up.


Abraham Albert Heaps: How much money is collected under the present act?


Charles Gavan Power: 
[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of Pensions and National Health) moved the second reading of Bill No. 24, to amend the Opium and Narcotic Drug Act, 1929.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.
On section 1-Licences.
Mr. MacNICOL:: This section refers to production, and I suppose that means of opium or any other narcotic drug or any weed, for instance, which may be grown in Canada. I have heard a rumour that some such weed is being grown in this country and is being used in the form of cigarettes which have a more or less harmful effect. I have been told also that the experimental farm is engaged in some production along that line. I do not know whether it is so, but the minister will no doubt be able to inform us. If a weed of this kind is being grown in Canada there must be some source from which the seeds are obtained and a record of the extent of land under cultivation. Can the minister give us any information as to how much of this weed is being produced and what it is being used for?


Charles Gavan Power: This particular section refers to the production of any drug; but since the proposed amendments deal to a considerable extent with the attempt which is being made by the department to control what, though it cannot be called a new drug, is a new menace to the youth of the country, perhaps I had

better make some observations with respect to the weed that is known as marihuana. This is by no means a new drug; it was known as far back as the days of Homer.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is that the reason Homer nodded?


Charles Gavan Power: No; on the contrary, the effect is not to make people nod; it is exceedingly stimulating. It is probably the reason why there was an attack on Troy.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is its production a new thing in Canada?


Charles Gavan Power: Perhaps it might be well to give an idea what it is. In the old days it was known as hashish, and it has a dozen different names throughout the East. Our modern word " assassin " comes from the name given to the people who were first known to have used it, the assassins, in the early days of Christianity, and the use of the drug has spread throughout the world, the eastern world particularly. It came to us through the United States from Mexico, where it is known as marihuana. It is known scientifically under the name of cannabis sativa. It grows wild in certain countries, generally speaking in temperate climates. It is used in windbreaks in western Canada, the leaves being the portion which, when made into something resembling tobacco, is extremely dangerous if smoked. It is made into cigarettes that resemble tobacco cigarettes and is peddled around largely to the youth of the country. The United States government has taken an extremely serious view of it, and is now endeavouring by federal legislation to control its cultivation, manufacture and sale.
In these amendments we are asking that the production and also the cultivation be prohibited. My hon. friend asked if there had been any cultivation in Canada. I find there has been no cultivation for commercial purposes, although it is grown at Emerson, Manitoba, and was found on a vacant lot in Calgary. Certain of our European immigrants have been using it for extracting an oil to be used as a substitute for fat. There was a certain area cropped at the central experimental farm in Ottawa, and another area at a substation near Montreal.


Mr. PELLETIER:: Will the minister tell
us to what extent it has been used in Canada to the knowledge of the department, as an illicit drug?


Charles Gavan Power: My information is that since 1932 we have had twenty-eight convictions for the possession of this drug. But the im-

Narcotic Drug Act
portance of endeavouring to control it is that it is about the only habit forming drug which is produced in Canada. In any other case our efforts are confined to keeping the drug out of Canada; but here is something growing right in our own country, and it is extremely difficult to control unless authority is given to the department to control the production and cultivation also.


René-Antoine Pelletier: The word "production" necessarily conveys the idea that it is being produced in Canada. I was wondering to what extent.


Charles Gavan Power: Up to the present time that used in the traffic has. as far as we know, been imported. It usually crosses the border through Windsor. But there is nothing to prevent anybody from going into the business here.


René-Antoine Pelletier: This is a sort of preventive measure.


Mr. McCANN:: The purpose of the legislation is, I understand, to control the production of this extremely deleterious drug. While control of production may have far-reaching effects and do a great deal of good, I should like to ask the minister whether any attempt is being made or contemplated to eradicate the plant as a weed. It appears to me we shall not achieve the purpose for which this legislation is intended if we control only the production, while at the same time the plant from which the drug is made grows wild as a weed and may be gathered by those who recognize it and make it into tobacco form.


Mr POWER:: Under section 3 of the bill
we are taking power to control the cultivation and also the gathering and production. We are endeavouring to find out where it grows. So far we have located it in certain parts of Canada, and I suppose by education we shall try to impress on the people of Canada the evil results from its use. Once we have this authority, whenever we find it we shall be able to prevent the cultivation of it.


James Joseph McCann: Does the bill make provision for a penalty for those having it in their
possession?


Charles Gavan Power: That is already in the act.


Mr. BROOKS:: Are there any good purposes to which this weed can be put? I am very much interested in the minister's remarks. I happened to read the other day a report of H. F. Anslinger, United States Commissioner of Narcotics; he calls this drug the assassin of youth, and states that it is one of the greatest menaces which has ever struck that country. It seems to me that very severe penalties should be imposed for the
production or sale of this drug. The eradication of it is certainly necessary. If there are no good purposes to which it can be put, I do not see why licences should be granted; rather steps should be taken to eradicate it entirely, because it is something that could undermine the youth of the country.


Charles Gavan Power: The penalty is fairly severe, seven years' imprisonment and the lash. With respect to uses to which it can be put, I have before me extracts from the evidence given at the sittings of the committee of the house of representatives at Washington. It says:
Hemp is cultivated for three purposes, (1) for the fibre, out of which rope, twine, cloth and hats are made, (2) for the seed, from which a rapidly drying oil is obtained as a commercial substitute for linseed oil, and (3) for the narcotic contained in the resin of the dried flowering tops of the pistillate plant. The seed is also sold as a constituent of commercial bird seed.
I want to make a distinction between these two, the hemp plant and the plant that provides the fibre for rope making. There is no connection whatever. All our ropes are made from hard fibres and have been ever since the sixties. These fibres are produced only in the tropics, while the hemp plant that produces soft fibre or the marihuana occurs only in temperate climates for fibre production. Marihuana hemp is used for commercial twines, such as bookbinders twine, hatters twine for sewing hats, and it was formerly used for what was called express twine or heavy twine.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I hoped that the minister would say that he would prohibit the production for commercial purposes, not issue a licence. To issue a licence involves recognition of the production. In view of the very serious situation to which attention has been directed, I think the proper course would be that the minister be authorized to take steps to prohibit production in commercial quantities. I do not think we could contemplate its production at all if it is half as bad as has been stated. I do not believe the situation is very bad yet in this country but certainly the reports indicate that it is very serious in the United States. If that report of the investigation is to be taken as a correct statement, should we not face the problem at once and say that we shall eradicate its production for commercial purposes?


Charles Gavan Power: There is some difficulty. Since the bill was introduced I have been informed that in certain sections of the country some farmers had gone in for the cultivation of this plant, and in fact, as my right hon. friend knows, during the war the Canadian government at the instance of the British government actually encouraged the growing of hemp, and though I understand it was not successfully grown in this country, whatever
Narcotic Drug Act

was grown was not used in the making of rope or twine. I am informed that far the greater part went into upholstery, and a great deal was wasted. But the fact remains that we have in this country, I am informed, a number of farmers who have gone into the cultivation of this and have bought machinery to gather it, and perhaps some hardship would be caused to them if growing it were prohibited. But it is the intention of the department, unless very strong reason is shown, not to issue any licences.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I thought the minister would say that it was not proposed to issue licences. But with great respect I say that begs the question of the destruction of the plant and the prohibition of its production for commercial purposes.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: How is the United States handling the situation? In the report I have before me I note that in New York state, for instance, 200 acres of growing plants were destroyed by the authorities. In Louisiana the officials made a raid in which 500,000 plants were destroyed. It seems to me that evidently they are trying to eradicate the plant altogether.


Charles Gavan Power: In the United States they have a provision similar to this one. They found that it was impossible to enforce total prohibition at once, but they are administering by means of licences. I may say the bill came into force only on October 1, 1937. The latest reports I have from the United States are to the effect that total seizures of marihuana in that country during 1937 amounted to 98,000 pounds of growing plants and 667 pounds of bulk marihuana. This was taken from 1,909 acres. Between October 1, 1937, when the United States federal law came into effect, and December 31 of that year, seizures by federal officials involved 1,000 pounds of growing plants and 452 pounds of bulk marihuana.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Of growing plants?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: A thousand pounds?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: It must have been a hundred tons.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No; there are only forty-nine tons altogether.


Charles Gavan Power: That is in the three months since October 1.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The plants are being seized?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes, they are seizing the plants.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We could not seize them.


Charles Gavan Power: But we will, under the section.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is the same drug extracted from hemp? It seems to me that the experimental farm officials have announced that that is so.


Charles Gavan Power: The experimental farm has been growing the plant for the stalk. The stalk is innocuous, but the flowering tops and the leaves are dangerous. In that state they sell for as much as S20 per pound. I have no doubt it would be possible to control cultivation, even under another government.


John Ritchie MacNicol: But is not this weed or drug extracted from hemp?


Charles Gavan Power: The plant itself is known as hemp. As I understand it, the process is not complicated. The leaves are simply chopped and made into a kind of tobacco, which is dried. That is all there is to it, unless there is some process of extraction, with which I am not familiar, to make it still stronger. But it can be used as a habit forming drug by simply drying and powdering the leaves.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What does the experimental farm do with the leaves it produces?


Charles Gavan Power: This year they were left on the ground and ploughed in. The marihuana menace has been drawn to the attention of the people in Canada and the United States only within the last three or four years, so that I would not be at all surprised if large numbers of people were unwittingly growing the plant -and in that I would include perhaps some government departments.


Mr. McIVOR:: Is it the purpose of the government not only to curtail but to eradicate altogether the production of the drug? I am convinced that anything which can be misused to break down our manhood should be investigated. The farmer producing the plant should be compensated, and the plant eliminated.


Charles Gavan Power: I can give the committee
the undertaking that no licence will be issued until we have a complete survey of the localities in which the plant is grown, and to what use it would be put. Our hope is that within a short time it will be possible absolutely to prohibit cultivation and production, as well as sale and manufacture.

Narcotic Drug Act


Mr. MASSEY:: What steps have been taken in the United States to eradicate the plant as a weed?


Charles Gavan Power: The United States have passed a bill, in somewhat similar terms, which came into effect on October 1, 1937.


Denton Massey: What practical steps have been taken?


Charles Gavan Power: Within the last two or three months, and during the course of 1937, certain seizures in plant and bulk form have been made.


Denton Massey: Probably I have not made myself clear. Apparently the plant grows as a weed. The minister has told us that it was found in a vacant lot in Calgary, and in other parts of western Canada. What steps have been taken by the government to locate it, where it is grown innocently? Have the United States government taken steps to locate where it is grown in that way?


Charles Gavan Power: I am informed that on account of the difficulty of running this thing down in the United States, that has not been done completely. The act has been in force only since last October. They have not yet reached the point where they can say just where the plant is grown, in what quantities it is grown or how they are going to proceed to eradicate it. I may add, however, that I believe over forty states of the union have passed legislation with respect to marihuana. It was found advisable, nevertheless, to have some measure of federal control.


James Joseph McCann: Because the weed is not generally known or recognized, and because its use is so harmful, I would suggest that the government, through its publicity branch and educational features, should bring to the attention of the people of Canada the fact that the weed has far-reaching, poisonous and demoralizing effects. I believe along that line something could be done which would be of greater value than any attempt to stop production.
While I am in favour of stopping production and the use of the weed as a drug, or in the form of cigarettes, before too many lives are endangered, before the morals of the people are contaminated and before the drug comes into general use, however unwittingly on the part of the public, I say the department might well take into consideration the issuance of educational circulars dealing with its deleterious effects.


Charles Gavan Power: I should be glad to take that into consideration. The only thing which
prevents me from saying at once that we shall proceed with an educational campaign is the fear that it might advertise the use of the drug. If it is at all possible to proceed educationally without, at the same time, telling the people where they can get it and how they can use it, I should be very glad to follow the hon. member's suggestion.


Mr. McNEVIN:: It seems to me that the harships endured by any farmers who may have equipped themselves to produce this plant are of very slight importance as compared with the evil effects that the continuance of the growing of the plant would have. The results of the use of it have been proved to be serious. Many municipalities are equipped with inexpensive spraying equipment which could be used in the eradication of the plant wherever it is found growing as a weed. I suggest that the department consult with the municipalities regarding the spraying of this weed wherever it is found.


Charles Gavan Power: I am informed that we are pretty well ahead of the problem in Canada. In the United States the problem overtook them before they were ready, in that the use of this drug grew up with amazing rapidity So far in Canada we have not had that to contend with. Our trouble at the present time is the imported drug. So far as we know there has been no use for drug addiction purposes of any of the plants grown in Canada. I think I can give assurance that there is no intention to issue licences; but before we take any drastic steps I think we should know just where the plant is being cultivated, the extent of its cultivation and whether any interest will be injuriously affected by an immediate prohibition. It may be that someone, unknowingly and without malice, has invested a fairly substantial amount of money in preparing for the cultivation of this plant. If so, he will be advised that we shall not permit this cultivation. I think that is all we can do for the moment.


Mr. HAYHURST:: In many parts of western Canada this weed is grown as a windbreak around the gardens, but most of the English speaking people do not realize to what grave uses it could be put. If this matter is advertised they will realize to what uses people put this plant. I think it would be wiser for the government to cooperate with the municipalities and the provinces in eradication work. You can go for 800 miles or so through the west and in probably every other garden you will find this weed. I do not think its use should be advertised. The
Narcotic Drug Act

government should work in secret with the provinces and the municipalities to eradicate this weed. As I say, it is used as a windbreak and in some cases as tobacco.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2, 3 and 4 agreed to.
On section 5-Burden of proof.
René-Antoine Pelletier: At first glance this
section would seem to be unfair. The minister has stated that this marihuana grows wild as a weed in many places, but I notice that the section reads:
Without limiting the generality of paragraph (d) of section four of this act, any person who occupies, controls, or is in possession of any building, room, vessel, vehicle, enclosure or place, in or upon which any drug or article mentioned in section II is found, shall, if charged with having such drug or article in possession without lawful authority, be deemed to have been so in possession unless he prove that the drug or article was there without his authority, knowledge or consent, or that he was lawfully entitled to the possession thereof.
It is quite possible that an individual might not know that this weed was growing wild on his land and under this section he might be put to an expense which he should not have to incur. I think the minister will agree with me that it might not be the fault of an individual if a weed was growing wild on his land.


Charles Gavan Power: Section 17 does not refer only to marihuana; it refers to all drugs. There is a section in the Opium and Narcotic Drug Act which places the burden of proof that he is not unlawfully in possession upon the person who has the drug. The only purpose of the amendment is to add the words * or article mentioned in section eleven." That would refer to articles such as opium pipes, utensils for cooking opium or things of that kind. It has no direct reference to marihuana; and even if this amended section did not pass, the act with respect to other drugs would remain the same.


René-Antoine Pelletier: It would have no particular reference to a weed growing on a person's land?


Charles Gavan Power: No.


Mr. HARTIGAN:: Subsection 5 states that a person charged with having such drug or article in his possession without lawful authority, shall "be deemed to have been so in possession unless he prove that the drug or article was there without his authority, knowledge or consent, or that he was lawfully entitled to the possession thereof." I submit that the narcotic drug control exercised by the government in past years has fallen far

short of what it should he. Reference has been made to marihuana, but we should not forget that this act covers all narcotic drugs. Wholesale drug houses throughout Canada are permitted to keep large stocks of opium and other narcotic drugs on hand, and I should like to know what control is exercised by the government over these supplies. I could take up considerable time in discussing this question, but I shall not. A word to the wise should be sufficient. Mention has been made of the great number of motor accidents these days, and when one's attention is called to this one invariably thinks of the narcotic addicts who might be at the steering wheels of motor cars. These wholesale drug houses have branches in many of the provinces, and quite often the branches are in charge of people who have not the pharmaceutical knowledge to see that the drugs in their care are distributed in the proper manner. These branches may have in their custody just as large supplies of these drugs as the head office may desire them to have. There does not seem to be any supervision by the government in this connection.
One could not help being struck by the words of the Prime Minister of Great Britain when, speaking with reference to the resignation of Mr. Anthony Eden, he referred to the sham of the League of Nations at Geneva. The very same thing has been evidenced here year after year. I mentioned it the year before last, and to-day it is more apparent than ever. We have been sending men from the narcotic drugs branch over to Geneva on joy rides, at the expense of the Canadian people, and what ever came of it? Was codeine banned? They discussed it for years at Geneva, and yet to-day codeine is sold in Canada holus-bolus over the counter to every man, woman or child who wants to purchase it. The purchasers take it, get in their cars and drive over the highways, and lives are lost. Codeine has never been counted as a narcotic by Canada, but it was banned as a narcotic by the United States government unhesitatingly, without regard to the League of Nations. Yet Canada cannot see her way to stopping the sale of codeine to our people. This act contemplates putting it under control; I am well aware of that; but if there is no more control than there has been in the past of codeine and other narcotic drugs, if there is no better administration of the act, we are wasting our time here and deluding the people of the country into the belief that we are protecting them from the effects of narcotics.


Charles Gavan Power: With respect to the observations of the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Hartigan), the importation of

Narcotic Drug Act
narcotics generally-and the question really resolves itself into a question of importation- is perhaps more rigidly controlled than he would seem to indicate. No one can bring into this country' any such drug as opium or morphine or heroin without first obtaining a licence. Then the drug has to be brought in through the customs ports, where all drug importations are carefully checked. Then it goes to the wholesalers, whose supplies are constantly checked by the inspectors of the department. The wholesalers, if they open a branch, must obtain a licence also for the branch. When the drug goes from the wholesaler or distributor or branch into individual drug stores or into the hands of private practitioners, a register must be kept and a check is made even of the supplies which have been delivered to the physician, and if it is found that there has been an excessive or abnormal delivery to any physician the department gets into touch with him and endeavours to ascertain just why this abnormal condition exists.
With respect to codeine, my hon. friend has on a number of occasions drawn to my attention his views regarding this drug. The League of Nations, at their meetings, have decided that codeine is not the kind of drug which must be subjected within the country where it is sold to the same restrictions as some other drugs; but internationally it is subject to some control of movement between countries. Within our own country we have arrived at this arrangement:	In four provinces codeine is subject to the same or somewhat similar regulation as other drugs, under provincial legislation; and in all the provinces, by arrangement between the federal government and the pharmaceutical associations with the assistance of the narcotic drug wholesalers, we have put into effect a plan which limits drug store purchases to actual medical needs. A maximum purchase of one ounce monthly was put into effect in 1935.


Mr. YOUNG:: May I ask which are the
four provinces?


Charles Gavan Power: British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario.


David James Hartigan: Does the minister mean one ounce monthly per patient or per drug store ?


Charles Gavan Power: Per drug store.


David James Hartigan: Does the department
consider that that arrangement has been kept by the wholesalers in their deliveries of codeine? You will find more than an ounce of codeine in a bottle of 222's or in any other form of codeine tablets. There is an eighth of a grain of codeine in each tablet.


Charles Gavan Power: My information is that
under this voluntary arrangement the drug stores are not able to get more than one ounce monthly, and of course their sales are registered, so they cannot sell more than the one ounce.


Alexander MacGillivray Young: I think that the handling
of the narcotic drug trade in Canada is very well done. Speaking from personal observation I have always considered that the officials were doing good work, but I am inclined to agree that codeine is not handled in Canada as it should be. It should not be allowed to enter or to be sold in this country. The minister has just told me that Saskatchewan is one of the four provinces which have certain regulations regarding the sale of codeine. I know for a fact that you can purchase 222's, containing codeine, the drug mentioned by the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Hartigan). without any restrictions whatever on the sale. I am firmly convinced, in spite of what many men who should know a good deal about it say, that codeine is a habit forming drug; I am satisfied of that. If that is true, I am equally satisfied that something more should be done in Canada than has been done to prevent any habit forming drug from being distributed in the way codeine is allowed to be at present.


Mr. BLAIR:: I should like to congratulate
the minister on this bill. I think it is very necessary for us to curtail the sale of codeine. It is possible that orientals bootleg this stuff into Canada more than we realize. In regard to hemp, I believe they are in the habit of using the leaves of the hemp on the sly, and it is very much to the advantage of this country that we should have an act such as this in force. I believe that a good many accidents on the highway, more than we would think from the reports, are due to liquor. In the old country they report that fifty per cent of their highway accidents are due to liquor. Personally I believe that many of our highway accidents are due to people smoking cigarettes with dope in them. After the driver has smoked a few he becomes addicted to them, and soon he is not watching his car as he should be doing. I think it will mean much to have this act in force.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 6-Additions to schedule.
Richard Bedford Bennett: This section is one giving very wide powers to the governor in council. It authorizes the transfer of preparations from one category to another at the instance of the government, which in times past would have been regarded by the minister as so ter-
Narcotic Drug Act

rible a thing to do as almost to invite an earthquake. It seems to me an extensive grant of power to one man.


Charles Gavan Power: I am inclined to agree with my right hon. friend, but the situation which arises would be this. Let us suppose that at the League of Nations meeting at Geneva it is decided that codeine should be in a certain category; in order to enable the minister to cany out the arrangements at Geneva a whole year must elapse. The purpose of the amendment is really to cover that situation.


Richard Bedford Bennett: So far as that phase of the matter is concerned I think that is desirable, but there should be added to it that it be published in the Canada Gazette immediately thereafter. It might be put in three or four years afterwards.


Charles Gavan Power: The amendment provides that " every order in council made in that behalf shall be published in the Canada Gazette "-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, I see that, but it does not say when.


Charles Gavan Power: -[DOT]" and shall take effect at the expiration of thirty days from the date of such publication.'' It will not be in effect until thirty days after it is published.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Quite. But the order in council might be passed and publication might not take place for two or three months.


Charles Gavan Power: But it would not be of any use to the minister or administration-


Richard Bedford Bennett: I agree with that, but it is desirable it should be. That is the point I was making. If it is desirable to pass it at all, it should become effective without delay. Perhaps Mr. O'Connor will deal with that.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 7-Application of certain sections of the act.
David James Hartigan: In regard to this section there is a point that the department would be well advised to bear in mind, and that is with regard to the present administrators of the act. While the wording is all right and the intention of the government is no doubt good, it can be readily understood that difficulty arises when it is left to a body of mounted policemen to go into the drug stores and check the receipts and outgoings of any narcotic. You cannot take haphazard a body of that kind and entrust it with such work. I have seen some of these men go into a drug store and try to check it over; I am not

casting any reflection on the mounted police as a body or, as far as that goes, on any particular individual in it, but I say that they are not the right body to be entrusted with the checking of sales of drugs in the drug stores of the dominion. It is almost like a bull in a china cabinet; it is just antagonizing the people who are in the drug business, because it leaves the impression that they may be guilty of some offence. If any customer happens to be in the store when the officer comes in, the first thought in that customer's mind will be, "This drug store must be in bad repute with the department when they have to send a policeman down here and take the manager into an inside office to check over his books and accounts." That has happened on more than one occasion. On other occasions the findings on the check-up have been far different from those reported to the heads of the department at Ottawa; of this I have very definite proof, and I am prepared to put it forward at any time it is requested. The check-up system in respect of narcotics should be changed.


John James Kinley: In my opinion, as one who has had some experience in the drug business, the sale of narcotic drugs is very carefully supervised by the department. In order to buy a narcotic the druggist must send an order certifying the amount; that amount is supplied to the store upon that order; if the druggist has two or three stores he may not transfer narcotics from one to the other; each store must stand on its own order in that regard. The druggist must keep a register, and in it he must keep the amount balanced as between his sales and his purchases; a mounted police officer comes in, usually once a month, and checks that record. I do not know of any more efficient control or any better type of inspector that could be obtained within the community for the purpose of the inspection of these books than the mounted police officer. He does it well; he does it without offence, and he does it with a certain prestige behind him which is derived from the organization he represents. I realize that the sale of narcotics is a serious matter, but they may be sold only upon the prescription of a doctor. It seems to me that, at least in the part of the country from which I come, there is no great trouble with regard to the act; it is not being violated, and everybody is trying to observe it in the best way possible.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 8 to 10 inclusive agreed to.
Richard Bedford Bennett: May I suggest to the minister that it might be desirable to con-



193S

[Stage Direction]
Narcotic Drug Act
sider whether this act should come into force at a date to be named? If it were to come into force at once upon receiving the royal assent, it might cause some difficulties with respect to those who are not informed as to its terms; I refer to the early part of the act. Would it not be desirable that it shall come into force by proclamation or upon a date to be fixed? I recall that in 1932 when we were passing a certain act we thought it desirable to do this, for the reasons I have indicated. I do not know whether they apply with equal force to this measure; but it occurred to me that they might, having regard to some of the provisions we have dealt with this afternoon.
Charles Gavan Power: In 1932, as I am informed, the reason the difficulty arose was that there was an international convention-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Quite.


Charles Gavan Power: -and the endeavour was to bring the act into effect at the same time as the convention. As a matter of fact there is a convention covering quite a number of the amendments submitted, and so far it has not been ratified by the house.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The fact that the bill has been introduced led me to assume that that was not necessary, because I recall vividly that many of the matters we have dealt with were discussed at the international convention at Geneva. I think it well to say that most Canadians are proud of the part taken at these international conventions by Colonel Sharman, who is here this afternoon; he has made a real contribution to the work of the conventions; I think that is admitted by all who have had to do with them.
I should like to identify myself with what has been said by the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg (Mr. Kinley) as to the method of enforcement of the act. What that hon. member has said is wholly in accordance with what I have observed, at any rate in western Canada, that the police usually go in after hours or at a time convenient to the druggist, look at the ledger and take particulars of the sales he has made to make sure that they balance with the receipts of narcotics during the previous month. Some druggists complain that it is difficult to get supplies, because of the severity with which the audit is carried on.


Charles Gavan Power: I shall be glad to accept the suggestion of the right hon. gentleman and allow this bill to stand in order to consider adding such a clause.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister can look into the matter. I do not know that it is necessary.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not know whether it is necessary or not.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The reason it may be necessary is that the house has not yet ratified certain conventions upon which uniform action was predicated by various countries of the world.


Charles Gavan Power: But there is no urgency as to that.


William Hayhurst: I should like to call the minister's attention to section 9, although it has been passed. I was wondering why the words "except the seed" were put in. In western Canada poppy seeds are used to a considerable extent, being ground up and used in bread by eastern Europeans. In my opinion the control of the poppy should be brought to the attention of the minister particularly at this time, because the use of it in the way I have described is harmful to young and growing people. The older people use it in bread, for what purpose I do not know.


Charles Gavan Power: My hon. friend will note that the seed is excepted from the terms of the act and he will also observe that we describe a certain kind of poppy.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We do not grow the opium poppy in Canada.


Charles Gavan Power: I think we do, in some of the western states.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Not western "states" yet.


Charles Gavan Power: It is grown in British Columbia. I am informed that the oriental population grow it for the sake of a sort of narcotic beverage which is obtained by boiling down the heads. They get a kind of tea which has certain narcotic qualities.
Progress reported.



CANADA GRAIN ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. D. EULER (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved the second reading of Bill No. 27, to amend the Canada Grain Act.
He said: While it is my intention to request that the bill be referred to the committee on agriculture after it has received the second reading, perhaps I might make a few comments upon what is proposed in it.
7S0
Grain Act-Statutory Grades
[Stage Direction]
Briefly, it provides for the exclusion of garnet wheat from grades 3 and 4 Manitoba northern. As hon. members know, it is already excluded from the higher grade. The bill also provides for the establishing of three grades of garnet; we shall have three grades of garnet. It provides further that there shall be no mixing in grades 1 and 2 of garnet wheat, and that anything which does not qualify for the three grades of garnet shall be put into the commercial grades of red spring wheat. One other provision is that in these garnet grades 1 and 2 any overages exceeding one-quarter of one per cent shall belong to the crown.
That, briefly, is all that is contained in the bill. I do not know whether the house would care to discuss the matter now, but it seemed to me that inasmuch as there are very many members who have no particular interest in wheat, it would be well to refer the bill to the standing committee on agriculture.
Richard Bedford Bennett: I submit that this bill should not be introduced until after the Turgeon report is presented.


William Daum Euler: It was introduced yesterday.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But it should not be proceeded with until after that report is presented. If that report is of the importance indicated; if it deals with garnet wheat as it is said it does, surely the house is entitled to the benefit of that knowledge before it gives second reading to the bill.


William Daum Euler: I might say in reply to my right hon. friend something which perhaps will satisfy him. Before the bill was introduced; before it was framed-and it was framed b3' the board of grain commissioners with the support of most of the interested parties-I took advantage of an opportunity to discuss it with the commissioner, Judge Turgeon.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That makes it just that much worse.


William Daum Euler: I was i.fraid it would not satisfy my right hon. friend.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But the hon. gentleman must realize that not only is an ex parte conversation with a commissioner bad, but to come into the house and say that he has had that conversation, and based legislation upon it, is worse still.


William Daum Euler: I did not even tell my right hon. friend what the result of my conversation was.


Richard Bedford Bennett: You did not have to, because you should not be talking to him at all about it.


William Daum Euler: I shall have to take issue with my right hon. friend.


Richard Bedford Bennett: You can take issue.


William Daum Euler: However, the matter stands just as I have stated it. If the house does not choose to give the bill its second reading, that is, of course, the privilege of the house. I think that the public interest would be properly served if the bill were given second reading and then referred to the committee on agriculture, where all those in favour of or opposed to it can make representations and arrive at some decision which will be acceptable to the house.


Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: From what the minister has said, I am in agreement with the principle of the bill as he has outlined it, and it may be all right for it to go to the committee. As regards what the Turgeon commission may report, that is another matter altogether. I wonder whether it would be out of order for me to ask the minister at this stage when we may expect the report from the Turgeon commission. Shall we get it during the present session, and if so, how soon?


William Daum Euler: Possibly I should mention another matter, one of the reasons why the bill is introduced now. It is important, I believe, that the grain growers of western Canada should have knowledge as to what it is proposed to do with garnet. It may affect their seeding of garnet wheat. The complete report of Judge Turgeon will be presented before the session is over, though I am not in a position at the moment to say how soon. I do not think the report will be unduly delayed, but before it is received it is well that the grain growers of western Canada should know exactly what we propose to do with respect to garnet, and that is a reason why this bill precedes the general amending of the grain act which will follow after the Turgeon report is received. That, I believe, is a sufficient reason why the house should enact the present amendment.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Before we see the report.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on agriculture and colonization.

Supply-Transport-Marine Service
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Marine service-administration of floating equipment, $28,835.
Clarence Decatur Howe: Minister of Transport): When this item was last discussed, the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Stewart) asked me to give a statement of the boats under the jurisdiction of this department. The department is responsible for refitting and repairs of all floating equipment operated by the Department of Transport, namely, the marine service steamers, including ice-breakers, lightships, River St. Lawrence ship channel fleet, pilotage service vessels, canal service vessels and national harbour board vessels. That is, it has jurisdiction as to maintenance and repairs, supervision of design and construction of new equipment, and also, under the direction of the director of marine services, is responsible for the operation of marine service steamers and ice-breakers engaged in icebreaking and ice patrol service in the river and gulf of St. Lawrence, Hudson bay and strait, and the maintenance of aids to navigation and distribution of supplies to lighthouses and materials for the construction of lights, fog alarms, breakwaters and other services. In other words, it has charge of the maintenance and repair of all our fleet and operation of four ice-breakers and twenty service vessels, two derrick scows, two barges, one scow and two motor launches in the marine service, and the aids to navigation, serves ten lightships. The statement follows:
Department of Transport Statement of Floating Equipment Aids to Navigation Service-10 Lightships St. Lawrence Ship Channel-
5	Inspection and survey vessels
2	Stone lifters
1 Winch scow
3	Sounding scows
1	Boring scow
2	Barrel floats
2 Catamarans
4	Motor launches
Pilotage Service-2 Pilot service boats Canals Service-
5	Dredges 13 Tugs
1 Inspection and service boat 10 Gate lifters
1 Drill boat
1 Stone crusher 13 Derrick scows
7 Motor launches 69 Scows of various types
National Harbours Board-
1 Dredge
5 Tugs
1 Fire tug
1	Drilling and blasting boat
2	Floating cranes
1 Floating pile driver
4 Floating derricks
1	Steam derrick scow
2	Motor launches
2 Work boats (motor)
1 Diving scow tender
30 Scows of various types


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Would the minister say whether this equipment has been increased since the administration of the harbours has been placed under the Department of Transport, whether any equipment has been sold, or the quantity increased, and whether the amount of equipment and number of vessels used now are greater or less than when the administration was taken over from the commissions?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As far as the harbour
commissions are concerned, the equipment is less. The principal change is in Montreal harbour, where we had quite a number of units that had been more or less laid up for several years. We had two small tugs there, used intermittently, but a number of units at Montreal harbour were sold when the St. Lawrence dredging fleet was sold. In addition we have sold two small buoy service vessels and one old icebreaker on the St. Lawrence. We refitted one of the coal barges to do buoy work on the Pacific and one on the Pacific coast has been sold. We are reducing our fleet and trying to operate the service with fewer boats and with more efficient equipment.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: My next question is, Which ones have been sold, how sold, whether by tender or how, and who were the purchasers?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Mikula, an ice-breaker, the Loos, which was a service boat, the Gulnare, which is a service boat, and the Newington, a buoy service boat working out of Prince Rupert, were sold through the salvage board. The remainder, that is the dredging fleet on the St. Lawrence and the surplus equipment in Montreal harbour, were sold in one lot by negotiated agreement.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Sold through the salvage commission, or is it just one officer, the salvage officer?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We call it the salvage board. There was a salvage officer who died a few months ago, but I think Mr. Watson Sellar, Comptroller of the Treasury, is really the officer of the government who represents the salvage board.

Supply-Transport-Marine Service


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Can the minister give particulars as to proceeds of the sales of these vessels, and who were the purchasers?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If my hon. friend does not object, we might discuss this when we discuss the fleets from which these were sold. I can have the particulars here at eight o'clock.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: All right.


Richard Langton Baker: The minister says that the floating equipment is much less than it was, but I notice that the administration cost is higher.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This item for administration is a new item in the estimates. The amount it is being compared with is the amount paid to these people when assigned to different duties. That was in two different votes last year. We have reorganized the method of operating our floating equipment, brought some of it directly under this branch, which is a new branch. The man in charge of this branch was formerly the superintendent of the Sorel shipyard. We placed the operation, maintenance and repairs of all our fleet under this man and transferred certain staff from other services to assist him. But this branch is a new branch, so the comparison is not very accurate as far as this particular vote goes.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Where does he make his headquarters?


Clarence Decatur Howe: At Montreal, spending two days each week at Ottawa.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Under what item does the minister propose to discuss the disposal of the St. Lawrence dredging fleet and things of that kind?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That would come under item No. 405, but I have no objection to discussing it under this item if the hon. member wishes.


René-Antoine Pelletier: If we have an opportunity of discussing it under No. 405, I am quite satisfied.


Mr. NEILL:: The other day I had a question on the order paper, which was answered, but I should like to get some further information. Apparently the government lighthouse tender named the Alberni is a new boat built at Collingwood. I may be wrong in saying it is a new boat, but I understood it was. It was brought to the Pacific coast in January last. It has been in drydock since then, at a cost of 85.458. Does that not seem rather extensive repairs to so new a boat? What is its history?


Clarence Decatur Howe: 
Richard Bedford Bennett: The Collingwood boat went on hydrographic survey, I think?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct.


Alan Webster Neill: I asked the speed and the consumption of coal. I was told that the speed was between six and a half and seven and a half knots an hour and the coal consumption thirteen and a half tons for twenty-four hours. That is not thirteen and a half tons per hour, is it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, for twenty-four hours.


Alan Webster Neill: A rather low fuel consumption. What is the size of the boat?


Clarence Decatur Howe: About 150 feet. The slow speed helps the fuel consumption, of course. We are putting new propellers on it .this spring, which will bring the speed up to about eight and a half knots, which we think is enough.


Richard Langton Baker: How much did the minister say was spent on repairs at Sorel on a 130 foot boat ?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The amount was S60.000; we had to put in buoy-lifting equipment and fit it for the particular service for which it is used. It has charge of the servicing of buoys and aids to navigation on the northern part of the British Columbia coast.


Richard Langton Baker: It seems rather a large amount for a 130 foot boat.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Clarence Decatur Howe: 
[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Transport-Aviation
Nautical services-nautical service administration, $24,775.
Item agreed to.
Air service - Air service administration, $10,665.
Clarence Decatur Howe: In fairness to the hon. member f.or Leeds, who has just taken his seat, may I say that a vote was passed before he arrived in the chamber. We would be pleased to reopen it, if he wishes.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: What number is the
vote?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Votes Nos. 403 and 404. I have put the information on record.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Very well. Would the minister give the particulars with respect to vote No. 385, which we are now considering.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This item covers expenditures of the office of the chief of air services. It is a small vote, providing for the salary of the chief of air services; his clerk, grade 4; a stenographer and office boy. There is an increase of S491, made up of $446 by way of restoration of salary deduction, and $45 through an increase in the salary of the office boy.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Is this a new branch?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. It was a branch established at the time of the departmental reorganization. There are three branches, namely, civil aviation, radio telegraph and meteorological services. These are grouped together under the officer known as the chief of air services. This particular vote is a break-down of the items of last year, the expenditure by the chief of air services being shown as a separate item.


Mr. LANDERYOU:: Can the minister explain the duties of this official?


Clarence Decatur Howe: He has charge of everything connected with radio telegraph. He has the administration of the Radiotelegraph Act, the ship-to-shore radiotelegraph communication, everything connected with aviation and the meteorological service. This latter function includes the preparation of weather reports, and the meteorological service for the Trans-Canada Air Lines.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil aviation division-Control of civil aviation including the administration of the Aeronautics Act and regulations issued thereunder, $3X7,500.
Grote Stirling: Would the minister give the committee information with regard to the feeder services to the Trans-Canada service. I
had the pleasure of taking some part in the opening of the airport last summer at Oliver which, as the minister knows, is an admirably developed airport. It is the point on the Trans-Canada service where it crosses the Okanagan valley which runs north from the centre of the state of Washington, up to the main line of the Canadian Pacific railway. What possibility is there in the near future of developing a feeder service in that valley. There are several other localities in southern British Columbia which require facilities for moving freight, passengers and perhaps mail.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Trans-Canada Air Lines are confining themselves to through services, from "Vancouver to the maritime provinces, the only deviation from that being the line from Lethbridge to Edmonton, the capital city of Alberta, and such international services as may later be decided upon as a logical part of that operation.
It is intended that the feeder services will be left to private enterprise, under arrangement with the Post Office Department. The post office requirement will largely determine the number of feeder services to be inaugurated. At this time tenders are being called for a service connecting the principal cities in Saskatchewan with the Trans-Canada at Regina. I am sure that later on other services will be developed westerly from that point. Of course the Post Office Department's requirements are something outside the province of the Department of Transport, and I should have to take the matter up with the Post Office Department before I could answer the hon. member with respect to the possibility of a route in the Okanagan valley. I believe I can say that it is the intention to extend as rapidly as possible aviation to the principal centres in Oanada, wiherever postal traffic will warrant.


Mr. MARTIN:: The minister was' good enough this summer to visit Windsor. His assurances in connection with the place the city of Windsor would occupy in the province of aerial navigation in Canada were indeed encouraging. I am wondering if he would care to make a statement with regard to the position of Windsor, not as a point on the main line, but largely because of its accessibility to the United States in a direct line from Toronto to Windsor and Chicago.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is rather early to speak definitely about the route from Toronto, west. It is the intention, of course, to establish a connection west from Toronto with either Chicago or Detroit. So far as I know, the
Supply-Transport-Aviation

department has plans for Windsor, but unfortunately we have not had very much cooperation from that city. We look for some help from the cities by way of furnishing air fields. At this time the whole situation in so far as Windsor is concerned is a little indefinite. We hope to make some progress this year in that particular direction.


John Charles Landeryou: What plans has the department in mind for Calgary?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The situation in Calgary is still being explored. The field previously used is not adequate for high speed equipment. It can be used in favourable weather. We hope to obtain a better field there shortly. We are prepared to cooperate with the city, but unfortunately the city is not in a position at this time to cooperate with us. So there qgain it is a little premature to say what eventually the solution of the Calgary situation will be. It is one of two or three spots in Canada the plans for which have not yet been completely worked out.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: What is the situation with reference to the extension of service to the maritime provinces? What will be the terminus there and what feeder lines are contemplated?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The situation in the maritime provinces has not been worked out in detail. As the hon. member knows, the route has been developed from the westerly end and we have completed it as far east as Winnipeg. By the middle of this summer we hope to have it completed to Montreal and Toronto, and we are going to press on to the maritime provinces as soon as the weather permits this spring. The situation in eastern Canada will also be developed, but it will take the remainder of this year to work things out in the maritime provinces. Until they are worked out, it is difficult to speak definitely.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: What will be the main
centre in the maritime provinces?


Clarence Decatur Howe: At the present time we
are exploring the possibilities at Moncton, but no decision has been arrived at in the matter. We are considering the establishment of a terminus at Moncton with feeder services to other maritime cities.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the present
position of the airport on Toronto island, and what means are being provided for the rapid transport of passengers to the airport? The minister will remember that the previous government planned to build a tunnel

under the western gap, but after a lot of money had been spent the present government decided to discontinue this work. I believe a lot of the lumber that was there was shipped up to the Muncey Indian reserve, thus wasting a good deal of money.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We may have wasted a lot
of money, but I think we saved a lot at the same time in connection with that tunnel. The present plan is to use a chain ferry. I understand the distance to the mainland is only 300 yards, and it is expected that the elapsed time for a trip will not be more than five minutes.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I come back to the
question I asked the minister with reference to Windsor? The minister may not be able to answer my question now, but when the minister said that the city of Windsor had not cooperated fully with the department I believe he had something else in mind. I should like to state that interested parties in that city are now negotiating in connection with a proposed site for an airport. The negotiations so far have been very satisfactory as far as the department is concerned, but the matter has not reached the stage where the city could be expected to commit itself one way or another. I can assure the minister that the city of Windsor and the other agencies involved are interested and are cooperating to the full.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister did not
answer my question with regard to the airport to take care of the Toronto situation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Our cooperation was asked in the development of two airports, one at Malton and the other on the island. Our surveys disclosed that the Malton field had possibilities of being developed into perhaps the finest airport on the north American continent; it is almost ideal for all weather conditions. The island airport is unexcelled because of its accessibility to the business district, but it does not comply with the standard specifications in being too close to the high buildings along the water front. Our department has ascertained that for about eighty-five per cent of the time the island airport will be quite suitable, and when weather conditions do not permit its use-this is when first-class facilities are needed-the Malton field will be available.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Will the Malton airport be affected by fog?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not so far as our observations indicate.


Denton Massey: Are we discussing item No. 386 or Item No. 387?

Supply-Transport-Aviation


John Frederick Johnston: Item No. 386.


Denton Massey: Are we not out of order in discussing airports under this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Probably we are.


Mr. LANDER  YOU@: The city of Calgary has spent considerable money on an airport and responsible officials of the city have indicated that they are prepared to cooperate. The minister has said that the city has failed to cooperate up to date.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, I did not.


John Charles Landeryou: What cooperation has the minister in mind as being necessary?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think my hon. friend misunderstands me when he says that I said that Calgary had failed to cooperate. As a matter of fact we had excellent cooperation there and we had advanced the proposal to the point where the relative liability of each side had been discovered. It was at that point that Calgary decided that the amount required from them was more than they could afford at the time, so the matter was temporarily dropped. The city officials have shown every disposition to cooperate with us as far as they can. There are rigid provisions governing the help which the dominion gives in the development of municipal airports. We are permitted to contribute one-third of what money has been spent on an airport, or one-quarter of what new money is required. In other words, we are prepared to spend on a new airport one-third of what Calgary spent on the old airport, and contribute toward any additional money required in the proportion of one-quarter to three-quarters.


John Frederick Johnston: The point raised by the hon. member for Greenwood (Mr. Massey) is well taken. The discussion for the last few moments has been all in connection with airports, and that would come more properly under item No. 387. If we could pass this item, we could proceed to the next.


James Samuel Taylor: Is the department bending its energies towards taking adventure out of flying in Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This particular item is solely for that purpose as it covers the regulation of flying. This vote is to ensure that aircraft are in proper condition before they leave the ground; that the rules of flying are observed, and that planes are not overloaded or are not flown in a dangerous condition.


James Samuel Taylor: Is some effort being made to reduce the present high landing speeds? The fact that a plane carrying pas-51952-50
sengers must land at a speed of eighty-five miles an hour may not sound dangerous, but the fact is that is a very fast speed at which to land. I am told that some of the newer machines land at speeds of 100 to 120 miles an hour. That seems still to leave adventure in flying, and I do not think you will get the people of Canada or of any other country to travel consistently by air until that factor is removed.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Very few planes have a landing speed as high as eighty-five miles per hour; the average landing speed is forty to sixty-five miles an hour. The question here is whether the runways, or, in the case of a hydroplane, whether the lake or water area is large enough to provide for landing at that speed. If the proper runway is there and fitted to the speed, there is probably no more hazard in landing at sixty-five miles an hour than at a lower speed.


Denton Massey: Would the minister be good enough to inform the committee of the procedure followed in laying down regulations as to the airworthiness of our aircraft, the qualifications of pilots, and matters of that sort? I think it would be of great interest to know how these regulations are arrived at and1 determined.


Clarence Decatur Howe: An international convention upon airworthiness and navigation governs both those points reasonably closely. We are just now completing our new regulations as to airworthiness and requirements for pilots. They will be out very shortly, and rather than give an amateurish explanation of what is in them, I shall be very glad to send a copy of them to my hon. friend.


Denton Massey: I was interested in asking the question because within the year we hope that large transport planes in the hands of Canadian pilots will be passing through Canadian air. We fully realize that the Canadian pilot has distinguished himself in both commercial flying and wartime flying as has no other pilot in the world, and we may justly be proud of our achievements in that field. On the other hand, we have had a limited experience with the beam method of flying in this country. It will be readily recognized that straight instrument flying and directional flying under radio control are quite different from flying by map and compass or taking one's position from the ground, and in view of that difference I understand that Trans-Canada Air Lines have brought several pilots from the United States into Canada to instruct our pilots in the art of beam flying. I am not for a moment suggesting any criticism of

Supply-Transport-Aviation

the capabilities of these gentlemen, particularly because of the extended and happy experience the United States have had in their transport and passenger flying. On the other hand, we fully realize that Imperial Airways has achieved ends which are second to none in the world; while there may be some differences between the method of flying on the European continent and other parts of the world and what we plan over here, nevertheless Imperial Airways pilots have had the experience and the training, and I would ask the minister why it is that United States pilots are being brought to Canada, rather than pilots of Imperial Airways, for the purpose of giving instruction to our own pilots.


Clarence Decatur Howe: On this continent beam flying is used. Imperial Airways uses a direction finder. They carry a spare officer, a navigator, who works out his position from the stars, and when he gets within range of homing devices he works out his position by radio direction finding. We believe that for the conditions we will encounter in the Trans-Canada service it is decidedly preferable to follow the beam type of flying. We think a plane flying at three miles a minute over mountains does not give the navigator sufficient time to plot his course as he goes along, and it would mean carrying a navigator in the plane in any event. Beam flying has been very successful in this country, and we think we are wise in choosing a proven method of transport for this continent under conditions paralleled by existing competing lines.


Denton Massey: In addition to what the minister has just said, those of us who have flown in transport planes in both the United States and Europe, particularly on Imperial Airways and some of the German lines, or the Dutch, Swedish or Danish lines, realize that their method of flying is quite different from that which is practised in the United States. In the United States a plane sets out from an airport for another airport, and every effort is exerted to have that plane land on time. They tend to stick to the beam in spite of weather, and maintain a predetermined altitude of, say 3,500 or 4,000 feet, following the beam into the airport. Flying in Europe is done rather differently. I remember flying from Copenhagen to Stockholm a year ago. We climbed to 16,000 feet to get above bad weather; and on another occasion flying from Malmo, Sweden, to Amsterdam, Holland, we went seventy miles to the south to avoid a storm. In such flying as I have done in the United States I cannot recall instances where we have gone as far out of our way or climbed to 15,000
'Mr. Massey.]
feet except to get over a mountain. I think we all realize that Imperial Airways pilots have built up for themselves an enviable record. We all realize too that the experience of the United States airlines on some occasions, particularly on the west coast where fog is encountered, has not been too happy. Would the minister be good enough to inform the committee of the method that will be followed in Canada, whether we shall follow the example of various European lines and detour or climb in an attempt to avoid bad weather, or will our planes go straight through on the beam in spite of bad weather?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are in a very happy position in Canada. We have our own pilots with wide experience in the type of flying that is done in Europe, where the pilot uses his own judgment to a great extent. We have, too, the facilities for beam flying, which is not at all restrictive as to the height the plane may go. The pilot can go up to ten or twelve or fifteen thousand feet if he likes, but if he leaves the beam he loses all benefit from it and must rely on homing devices. He has the further advantage, if he can stay on the beam, of getting his definite location and of having instructions over the beam to duplicate his radio direction finding instructions. So we believe he is in a better and safer position than the pilot in the Imperial Airways plane. Of course, the Imperial Airways plane travels under quite different circumstances. It would be almost impossible to have the beam on many of the routes they fly. The planes leave England and go out over the ocean, and the carrying power of the beam is not very great. The maximum distance for which the beam can be relied upon is two hundred miles. I think we are very well safeguarded. Our pilots have been examined by several experienced aviators, and I have been told on all sides that we have to-day twenty-one pilots who are the equal of any that can be produced in any country in the world. They are well trained in our type of bush flying; that is, flying without aids to navigation, and we have taken the best of them and have given them a thorough training in beam flying with capable instructors brought here for the purpose.


Denton Massey: Our pilots are indeed,
the best in the world. It is generally understood that within the next few months, or perhaps a year or two, Imperial Airways will have a round-the-world service. There are few places now where they have not a service, one of the few gaps left to complete, to make that service an actuality, being across
FEBRUARY 24, 1938	?S7
Supply-Transport-Aviation
Canada, and another over the Atlantic ocean where experiments were so successfully conducted last summer. For this round-the-world service of Imperial Airways, will Canadian pilots fly Canadian planes across Canada, or will the British pilots take the Imperial Airways planes from Australia, or whatever point they take off from, and use our facilities here, flying their own ships across our dominion?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Canadian planes and Canadian pilots will always do the flying over Canada.


Grote Stirling: Will the minister give
the committee some information regarding the service to the Yukon? A considerable volume of support came forward to the work which the Vancouver board of trade did in endeavouring to persuade the minister that the route which would serve the Yukon most successfully was from Vancouver. Their plea largely was that for thirty years the principal service of supplies to the Yukon had been carried on via Vancouver, and they were naturally anxious to keep that connection. I believe the minister was of opinion that, at the present time at least, it would not be possible to carry on that service via Vancouver. Will the minister state how far have negotiations to that end been carried on. and whether he considers that the time will shortly come when the arrangements for commercial flying Vancouver to Ashcroft to Prince George will be made use of as a feeder to the Canada Air Lines?


Clarence Decatur Howe: At the moment, Edmonton
is linked with the Yukon by a private service, with a mail contract from the post office. Test flights are being made for a route from Vancouver to Ashcroft to Prince George, and also, I understand, by the Pacific coast, but to date I believe no mail contracts have been awarded. The matter of lines of this sort is really outside our jurisdiction as far as initiating them goes. The lines must show that they have sufficient traffic to develop an air mail contract substantial enough to justify the service.


Mr. GREEN:: Has	the Department of
Transport anything whatever to say as to the routes that are to be opened up across different parts of Canada? Surely some department of the government should be able to give a lead in these matters or should have some control over what routes are flown. Can a man set up an air route and carry passengers anywhere he wishes in Canada without any check by the government as to what route he is to fly?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Our act prescribes the conditions under which he must fly. If necessity is shown for a route; if the post office department-can be interested or even if they cannot if a route is to be flown, our inspectors pass on the equipment and on the landing facilities, they investigate whether the lakes are sufficiently large to permit planes to land in safety, and the whole route is inspected before it is licensed. We are adopting now a licensing system. If a plane is flying a route with any regularity-once a day or a week or a month-the route is licensed to that party after our inspectors have determined that conditions along the route make for safety of operation.


Howard Charles Green: The reason I raise the question is that the development of the Yukon air mail route has been most unfair. It may be that the government did not intend to be unfair in acting as they have done; but they have given this air mail subsidy to a line flying from Edmonton to the Yukon, whereas practically all the passenger, the express and the freight business to the Yukon has come for many years from Vancouver and other coast points. The result of subsidizing this air mail service from Edmonton to the Yukon will be to deprive the coast cities of that business, and the government should have power to prevent or stop that sort of thing; it should not have been allowed in the first place. Flying is going on from Vancouver to the Yukon, I believe that route can be flown in a shorter time than the other, and surely that is the way by which this service should operate. I would ask the minister to have the matter looked into and see if these conditions cannot be righted, because the effect is to take business away from the coast cities and give it to Edmonton, and that in my opinion is not at all fair.


René-Antoine Pelletier: The hon. member who has just taken his seat apparently overlooks the fact that there are a great many intermediate points between Edmonton and the destination to be served. I feel sure that the present move is the right one, simply because it provides the only means of communication available to the people of the interior. So far as the time required is concerned, I doubt if that has a great deal to do with the matter, because after all the object of the service should be to do as much good as possible, and in that connection time is a secondary factor. In my opinion the post office, in doing what they did, have done a very good job.


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton):: Surely
the hon. member for Vancouver South
Supply-Transport-Aviation

spoke without a knowledge of the actual conditions in connection with proper communication by air from all parts of Canada and from the United States, and prospectively, the round-the-world mail service which will be inaugurated. The very arguments that he gave are, I should say, in favour of the route as established. The route from Edmonton to the Yukon has been opened up by private capital to satisfy an imperative demand not only for passenger but for mail service. I doubt whether this is the proper time to develop the argument, but surely the route has been selected after careful inspection and investigation by technical advisers of the Department of Transport. Surely no route should be used except and until it has been fully investigated by the proper technical officials.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is a misnomer to speak of a mail "subsidy." The carriage of mails is remunerated not as a subsidy but as a payment for a service, and I understand that the post office has found that on the whole it is a profitable enterprise. The reason the route was flown north from Edmonton was, of course, that it was demonstrated that sufficient mail offered to justify the service, which is weekly. It has proved profitable to the post office I am sure that if it can be demonstrated that any other route is similarly profitable to the post office, there will not be any difficulty about arranging a payment for the service.


Howard Charles Green: Why should this matter be left to the post office? Should not the Department of Transport decide what routes shall 'be flown? The hon. member for Edmonton West led the committee to believe that the department inspected the route from Edmonton to the Yukon. If they did that, they should at the same time have inspected the route from Vancouver to the Yukon. I do not know whether they inspected either route. Perhaps they just did not pay attention to anything that was happening, with the result that the Pacific coast has been put in a very unfavourable position. As to mail coming from the United States, that is just what we are afraid of, that the larger American centres in the east have been favouring this route from Edmonton to the Yukon and that this service has been inaugurated for their benefit, which we think is not fair to the Pacific coast
As regards the service to the orient, Australia and New Zealand, we have alw'ays been led to believe that it would go direct from Vancouver, but now we hear about this route via Alaska. It seems to me these are matters in which the Department of Transport should take some interest; it should not be just a

dog fight to see who gets in first. Plans should be carefully thought out ahead, and the best route for all parties concerned selected.


James Angus MacKinnon: We
who have lived in western Canada for some considerable time know that, in the past, attempts have been made to make water run up-hill. I do not think the Department of Transport should for a moment allow petty jealousies, one city or one part of a province against another, to enter into the matter at all. In my opinion the traffic should find the easiest route and should be encouraged along that line.


Mr. McNIVEN:: By the same token, I
have no doubt that the minister will be glad to hear of that route which is closest, safest and most advantageous from the standpoint of aerial development. Much has been said by hon. members who have spoken previously in regard to aerial connection with the great republic to the south, and I am informed that the most direct route from the south, from the western states of the south, is by way of San Francisco or Los Angeles over the Rocky mountains, crossing the great American desert to Glendive, North Dakota; from there to the queen city of the west, Regina; from Regina north to Saskatoon and Prince Albert; from Prince Albert north to Goldfields; from there up to Yellow Knife; thence to Aklavik, and on to the Yukon.
That is the safest and shortest route, and it avoids the perils of the Pacific ocean and the hazards of the Rocky mountains. Airmen themselves would very much prefer to have that chosen as the route leading into the great north, and there is another reason why that route should be very carefully considered, It may not be generally known to hon. members, but in the province of Saskatchewan in the great hinterland there are about 80.000 square miles of the pre-Cambrian shield. The pre-Cambrian shield houses all the resources that are responsible for the mineral wealth of Ontario and Quebec, and in Saskatchewan there are 80,000 square miles of it. It has been developed on the east at Flinflon and on the west at Goldfields, and between these two points there is a great natural wealth that would arouse the envy of the Incas of Peru. We know that wealth is there and we are seeking the cooperation of all the departments of government and in particular the Department of Transport in the development of that territory. It is Saskatchewan's one hope for a well balanced and better economy.


Howard Charles Green: I should like to get a word of support from the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Mackenzie).

Supply-Transport-Aviation


Clarence Decatur Howe: Speak to him.


Howard Charles Green: I will speak to him all right. Seriously, I believe there is now a regular air service in operation between Vancouver and the Yukon, and I understood from what the minister said that his department could examine routes and license them if they were satisfactory. Is there any reason why that route should not be examined in the near future and a licence issued if the route were found satisfactory? We would then be in a position to have the air mail which is going from Vancouver to the Yukon flown up the coast or through the interior up to Prince George and from there to the Yukon. We do object, and rightly so, to having the business taken from under our nose.


Denton Massey: Apparently we were out of order in discussing airports and we are out of order now in discussing airways. I wish to say something about this matter; but I hesitate to be out of order because the hon. member for Halifax is in his place, and I am afraid that we might have a speech to-night on the Crimean war if any irrelevant discussion were allowed. Am I in order in discussing airways?


John Frederick Johnston: When the committee passes item No. 386, the hon. gentleman will be in order.


Howard Charles Green: May I ask the minister for an answer to my question?


John Frederick Johnston: That comes properly under item No. 387. Shall item No. 386 carry?


Richard Bedford Bennett: This item is for the control of civil aviation, and it is in regard to that subject that we wish to ask a few questions. The other evening the minister did me the high honour of indicating to a gathering in the city of Ottawa that it was probable that I would oppose a certain proposal which he was going to make to the House of Commons. It is not usual to discuss these matters at banquets before they are heard of in the house, but to other days and other manners these things were different. First of all, I would ask this question:	Under this item are
the gentlemen to whom the minister alluded on that festive occasion being paid?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; this is purely the administration of the department's control of civil aviation.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It has nothing at all to do with the operations of the plants?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That settles that question for the moment; it will come up under the next item. Might I ask my second question, which arises out of what has been said. It is this: To whom did the department award the contract for the carriage of mails from Edmonton to the Yukon?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is a matter for the Post Office Department, but I happen to know that it is Grant McConnachie of United Airways.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Does the minister know how he came into possession of the contract?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The Post Office Department will enlighten us on that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Quite so.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Then this item does not bear in any way upon the matters to which the minister alluded the other evening, or yet upon the circumstances under which this young man became possessed of this contract, having come without one and left here with it? There is nothing here that will assist us in dealing with that question. This is departmental control?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Thank you. We will discuss the matter when we come to it.


James Angus MacKinnon: The
leader of the opposition made a slighting remark in reference to a young man of the city I have the honour to represent in this house. The young man is Grant McConnachie, and he is merely an official of a substantial, reliable, aggressive company which has made a contract with the Post Office Department.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am not making any slighting observations with reference to him. On the contrary I would compliment him upon his ability to secure a contract by an act almost of legerdemain in pulling the rabbit out. He pulled, and out it came. That is what I had reference to. Do not worry about any slighting observations about one who is thus able to pull the trick he pulled under the circumstances under which it was done. You put your hand in, shut your eyes and pull out a mail contract to carry mails from Vancouver to the Yukon with the high approval of the order in council for which the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Mackenzie) must be partly responsible. That is not a matter of importance at the moment. The minister does not know anything about it?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: No.
Supply-Transport-Airways


Richard Bedford Bennett: I thought not. That would be nothing unusual. I think you are entitled to that. So the hon. member for Edmonton West (Mr. MacKinnon) is entirely wrong in suggesting that I am in any sense indicating that any slighting observations should be made about one who is able to do this legerdemain trick, about which we shall receive particulars when we come to the Post Office Department, and the wonders that such a distinguished and shall I say courageous and active young man can accomplish. So I leave it at that. The Post Office Department is to enlighten our ignorance, I understand, and if the Minister of National Defence is to help us with his knowledge it will be received with great pleasure and satisfaction when that vote is reached.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Airways and airports-construction and improvements including lighting and radio facilities (capital), $1,722,400.
Howard Charles Green: May I get an answer to my question?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Wihat was the question?
I did not hear a question.


Howard Charles Green: The question was whether or not it would be possible for the department to check this new route that is being flown from Vancouver to the Yukon, and license it if it is found to be in order.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no direct route from Vancouver to the Y'ukon up the coast. It is too foggy for safe flying at the moment. There is a route being developed from Vancouver to Ashcroft and Fort George and Fort St. John, whore it ties in with the operation from Edmonton to the Yukon. I understand there is also a route being developed direct from Vancouver to Prince George via Hazelton. As I say, the speed with which these routes are developed will depend entirely on the amount of traffic. These are private enterprises and private canital is very anxious to explore every possibility of making a profit. If it can be demonstrated1 that either of these routes has the necessary traffic, I am sure that the Post Office Department will make the necessary arrangements to carry the mail and the route will be developed. If it is reported that anyone desires to fly the route, our inspectors will go in and if the route complies with the requirements we will license it. We are not retarding development but on the other hand the establishment of a route will depend on the traffic that offers. Traffic is the criterion.


Howard Charles Green: The department is in a position to check a route at any time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Quite.


John Charles Landeryou: Can the minister tell us what improvements are being made under this vote in the airports in western Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does my hon. friend want a detailed report on each one?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think it would be well to put on Hansard a short statement regarding each one.


Denton Massey: Will the minister permit me to interrupt? I think it would be of great assistance to the committee and to all concerned if he would give a general picture as to the position of Trans-Canada Air Lines with an estimate as to when we may expect the inauguration of passenger and freight service.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Starting from the western end we have at Vancouver one of the finest airports on the continent. It is well located and well developed, has concrete runways and is in first-class condition. Then we have an auxiliary airport at Langley Prairie. The grading of three landing strips is completed, and seeding is taking place there. I think by midsummer Langley will be in condition for use; it is an emergency landing field. Then at Hope the field is usable; there is a little more work to be done this summer; this is also an emergency landing field. At Princeton the field is usable, and there is very little to be done there; the radio beam is in, power installed. The radio beam is in at Vancouver as well. Then at Oliver the lighting is finished and the runways serviced; that landing field is complete. At Midway the field is usable, that is only an emergency field. At Grand Forks the radio range is in and consideration is being given there to an alternative field, as the municipal field is not capable of being developed up to standard. At Trail there is a municipal airport sufficient for emergency landings. At Salmo the field is completed, but the lighting is not installed. At Cranbrook municipal airport the lighting is now being installed, and the department is installing two-way radio equipment. At Lethbridge the old municipal airport was found to be unsuitable and a new airport has been selected; lighting is installed; the beam is ready and the field is now in fair condition for use. Trans-Canada Air Lines is building a hangar there. The next principal field is Medicine Hat; there again the field is usable; the lighting equipment is ready for

Supply-Transport-Airways
service; the power line for the radio range is completed and I believe the radio range is on the air now. Then Swift Current-


Richard Bedford Bennett: What about Calgary?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have a difficult problem there. The old field is not capable of being developed to modem standards, but at the same time it is usable in ordinary weather.


Richard Bedford Bennett: You have a lighthouse there, and power?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, but if the weather is too unfavourable we cannot stop at Calgary; we will have to fly on to Edmonton. We are hoping, possibly this season, to work out a new field there. I have tried to induce my colleague the Minister of National Defence to let us use his very fine field, but so far without success.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We will remember that!


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps from there on a general statement would do. The Trans-Canada airways from Winnipeg west is to all intents and purposes completed, and regular flights will take place from about March 1. For a time, while the flights will be on regular schedule, only mail will be carried; but after the weather improves and we are sure that all arrangements are working well we will take passengers as far east as Winnipeg.
Coming east from Winnipeg on the ordinary route, flying will be done at night, and we are putting in lighting fixtures and complete radio beams. The fields are all well developed right through to Toronto.


Richard Bedford Bennett: At what points?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Winnipeg, Kenora, Sioux
Lookout, Wagaming, Nakina, Pagwa, Kapus-kasing, Porquis Junction, North Bay, Reay and Toronto, and then Ottawa and Montreal. We expect that that route will be in the same position as the western end by the first of July. We expect to be able to run planes from Montreal to Winnipeg and Vancouver on July 1.


Richard Bedford Bennett: You do not fly over the lakes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; the route is around the north.


Thomas Bruce McNevin: What
points will the route touch between Toronto and Ottawa?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not know whether the hon. member knows the names of the places I have mentioned. Some of them are very small places. The route, however, is Montreal, Ottawa, Killaloe, Bracebridge, Reay and Toronto.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: When will there be a regular schedule from the Atlantic to -the Pacific coast, and when will the operation take place? Would it run once a week, once a month, or how often? When can we expect a regular trans-Canada air line service to be operating on regular schedule?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If the hon. member will accept the St. Lawrence river as the Atlantic, then I would say that we can expect a regular daily schedule beginning July 1 of this year, operating between Montreal and Vancouver.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: But we do not accept that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is expected that planes will leave Montreal about eight in the evening and arrive in Vancouver at noon the next day.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: We in the maritime provinces have too long accepted the St. Lawrence river as the eastern terminus of Canada. If this were a railway I could understand why we might have to start at one point and complete the work, section by section; but as it is to be an airway service, I do not see why ports in the east could not be developed at the same time as ports in central or western Canada. We in the maritime provinces have been on the tail end of many things for a long time, and I should like to see something done to give us the service we deserve. The suggestion that the St. Lawrence river might be considered the Atlantic ocean is a little too far-fetched for us from that end of Canada to swallow.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member will see
a great deal of activity in the maritimes this year. Our main expenditures in the coming year will be in the development of the service in the maritime provinces. The difficulty, of course, is that we can ask parliament only for limited funds to apply on the work in any one year. We hope that the end of this year we may have a trans-Canada service from coast to coast, and that by this time next year the planes will be flying the entire distance.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: The route the minister set out was from Montreal to Ottawa and, as I followed him, to North Bay. I was wondering if he had anticipated going from Ottawa to Toronto and then to North Bay. What is the direct route we may expect? If Toronto is on a branch line, I should like to hear what the minister has to say about it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The first planes will fly over the route, as I suggested, from Montreal to Ottawa, to Reay and to Toronto and then
Supply-Transport-Airways

back to Reay and on to North Bay, and west. As traffic develops, it is quite probable that we shall be able to run separate planes from Montreal and from Toronto.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The same as the trains?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I would like the minister to tell us how we are to get to and from the island at Toronto. We have been listening to information about the fine ports at Regina, Vancouver, Edmonton and elsewhere, and realizing that the taxes collected in Toronto are a large per cent of those collected throughout Canada, I think it is about time that Toronto had some of those fine ports.
The minister said something about a chain ferry. I must confess I do not know anything about that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Maybe it is like a
chain letter.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I do not know about
chain ferries running across the bay, but would the minister tell us about the chain ferry?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: You pull yourself over.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister said it would be a lot faster than that. When the tunnel was first planned by the late government, it was stated that passengers could go from the Royal York, the King Edward or any other downtown points in Toronto to the air port within five or ten minutes. But I can picture them taking about an hour by a chain ferry, particularly if it is stormy weather. The minister will have to give the Queen city of all Canada a much better entry to the island than would be afforded by a chain ferry.


Mr. LOCKHART:: While there have been
several things said-


Mr. FINN:: Mr. Chairman-


John Frederick Johnston: The hon.
member for Halifax has the floor.


Robert Emmett Finn: I thank you, Mr. Chairman,
that I have the floor. I am able to stand on both feet. "There is no wooden leg about this," as in the pensions debate.
I have followed very closely the remarks of the Minister of Transport in connection with the development of the airways. So far as the route from Montreal to the east is concerned, it seems to me everything is in the air, but there is nothing up there to travel in. I was very much surprised when he said that the second emergency station would be

"Hope." I remember once coming up from Bermuda in the old "Alpha", and while in a fog getting off our course. We got in touch with a little schooner to find out where we were, and learned that we were off Little Hope light. The name of the schooner was "Our Only Joy." So I guess the schooner is our only joy, so far as the aeroplane service is concerned.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What was in the schooner?


Robert Emmett Finn: You will have to ask the "Admiral." Then we come to another stop which bears a great name; it sounds something like "Grand Fox." One has to be pretty foxy to follow some of these things. Then we come down to Swift Current; things are so swift that, so far as the east is concerned, we are swept off our feet.
In all sincerity I must say that I have no desire to be too critical, but it does seem to me that in the east we have been forgotten. If we did not remember that we existed and did not sometimes get to our feet-as seldom we do-we would not be known at all.
Halifax is the eastern gateway of Canada as Vancouver is the western, but there is no intimation by the minister that he hopes at some future time to extend this service eastwards. Is the eastern terminus of this air line to be in the adjoining province of New Brunswick? What will be the route from Montreal east, and where will be the point of departure on the Atlantic? I am not referring to the St. Lawrence as that is an inland waterway. Millions have been spent on that in order to permit ships with slightly greater draught than the Empress of Britain to follow that waterway to Montreal. WTould the minister give us an outline of what is proposed in airways east of Montreal? Can he tell us what is to be done for the maritimes and for that part of Quebec east of Montreal? I should like to know where the ships are to take off for overseas and the Mediterranean.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The line runs from Montreal to within a few miles of Sherbrooke, across the state of Maine to about half way between St. John and Fredericton, and then to Moncton. The intention is to operate non-stop from Montreal to Moncton. This route has been chosen in an effort to avoid fog, the great enemy of flying. Almost anything else can be overcome except fog. We believe we have a route almost entirely free of that menace. From Moncton east it is intended to ask private enterprise to join with us in setting up routes. There is already a private route from Moncton to Charlottetown-and we hope to have routes to Halifax, Saint John and Sydney.

Supply-Transport-Airways


Robert Emmett Finn: I do not think the statement of the minister is quite satisfactory. We have one illustration of transportation going through the state of Maine. On the Canadian Pacific railway it is a case of closed doors after you leave Megantic until you cross the state. It is now proposed to run this air line across the state of Maine instead of through Canadian territory. We are a long way from Montreal, and there is no indication that any service is to be given beyond Moncton, except that provided by private companies. We are not to be part of a trans-Canada scheme of air lines to be paid for by the people of this country for the good of the people in the east as well as in the west. As one of the representatives for Halifax I am not satisfied with this proposed service. We have just as much right to the security of the best planes as have the people between Vancouver and Montreal and Saint John and Moncton. There is a dead stop when you get to Moncton; from then on you take your choice between "give me liberty or give me death" by private planes.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: In the discussion
concerning this air line no mention seems to be made of connections with the United States lines. Surely some consideration has been given to linking up with the United States lines south of the Niagara peninsula. Could the minister give us some idea of what connections are contemplated?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are two obvious
connections. One is from Toronto to Buffalo, to connect with the United States lines to New York and the east. The other is from Toronto to Windsor, to connect with the lines to Detroit, Chicago and the west. We have had preliminary discussions; but nothing definite has been developed, although we expect that a decision will be reached shortly. My hon. friend knows that at the present time there are connections between Montreal and New York, between Winnipeg and Minneapolis and St. Paul, and between Vancouver and Seattle.


Mr. McLARTY:: I did not have the
advantage of hearing the earlier discussion on this matter, but in answering the last question the minister referred to Windsor. I should like to know the situation with respect to that city. I realize that Windsor is not on the main line of the trans-Canada airways, but I should like to know just what the minister has in mind in connection with that city.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I gave that information
earlier in the discussion. We have been in
constant touch with Windsor, and at the present time the obvious site is being used in a small way.


Mr. LENNARD:: When matters of this kind are up for discussion, we hear much about Toronto, Vancouver, Windsor and Halifax-perhaps I should have put Halifax first-but there are many people who consider Hamilton to be of more importance. Could the minister tell me how Hamilton will be tied up with the route from Toronto to Chicago and the trans-Canada route?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Hamilton is in the centre of traffic on the route west. Planes will pass there each day, and I am sure they will stop if traffic offers.


Thomas Bruce McNevin: Is the present route between Toronto and Ottawa the most direct? I have in mind that the railway systems follow a more southern course. What were the determining factors in deciding on this route?


Clarence Decatur Howe: In deciding a route for this type of transportation the density of population is not important as planes do not stop very often. In this case the only stops will be at Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto; anything in between will be handled by another service. On this route the minimum of new fields are required. When planes travel at the rate of three miles per minute, the fact that they must go a few miles further is not very serious in the matter of time.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: It has been interesting for the members from the maritimes to listen to the Minister of Transport outline the various actions taken to provide services for the western portion of Canada. On looking at the report I find that there are already six districts in operation, each with a superintendent. There is one at each of these cities: Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa. From the report and the statement made by the Minister of Transport, it seems that the service is to stop at the St. Lawrence. I am in hearty accord with the view expressed by my colleague from Halifax (Mr. Finn), and I would impress upon the minister that we in the east feel that we are entitled to the same consideration as those in the extreme west. We are not envious of western members, but we ask for similar treatment for the east, and I think that is only a fair request to make. We do not think it is fair to have only one station for the whole three maritime provinces on the Trans-Canada Air Lines, and from there to have to depend
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on commercial lines. I understand the commercial companies have on more than one occasion applied for a licence in the maritimes to give us an air service while we are waiting for the Trans-Canada service to be inaugurated, and that the licence has always been refused. I should like to know from the minister whether he has in the past received applications for a licence in the maritime provinces and whether they have been refused; whether he has similar applications before him at the present time, and what likelihood there is of a licence being granted so that we may get a service at once pending the extension of the Trans-Canada Air Lines service. I should also like to ask when the service from Halifax to Vancouver will be in operation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The situation in the maritimes has received most careful study from those competent to decide how that section of the country can best be served. We have a route from Montreal to Moncton which can be flown, as far as we can see, pretty close to 365 days in the year; but when we fly from Moncton to the coast in any direction we have fog, and the service is likely to be interrupted. It was thought, therefore, that in the interests of the service the route from Montreal to Moncton should be established, so that deliveries could be made at least to Moncton every day in the year. We have one of the oldest services in Canada flying between Moncton and Charlottetown. It is licensed by our department and has been operating for a good many years with a good deal of success. I think I am safe in saying before another sixteen months is past, I can guarantee my friends from the maritimes that we shall have an entirely adequate service connecting Moncton with the principal cities of the maritime provinces, and with equipment entirely adequate for that service.
In reply to my hon. friend's other question, we have had applications for a licence for the maritime provinces; but we have refused to grant them for the very reason I gave on the previous vote, that before granting a licence we required the ground facilities to be adequate. The ground facilities in the maritimes were not adequate, and therefore we refused to grant the licences. But the planes insisted on flying, and of a fleet of five planes I think two are still intact. Fortunately there was no great loss of life. Until we get these facilities, which we shall endeavour to complete this year, we are not going to grant licences to fly in the maritime provinces.


Robert Emmett Finn: I do not think the minister was quite fair to the maritimes in his statement. He talks about accidents and death. Did they take place in the air or at the landing fields?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Landing fields.


Robert Emmett Finn: Not at the landing field in Halifax. The sum of S65,000 has to be spent in connection with the air field there, and nothing has been done. I think we are entitled to something a little more definite than the minister's statement that we shall have a service within sixteen months or two years.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: The minister, in replying to the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) in reference to transportation from Toronto island to the mainland said that he would put on a chain ferry. Now a chain ferry, as I have known them, is a kind of scow with a chain fastened on both sides of the opening and drawn through the scow, bringing the scow across from one side to the other. It is a very slow means of transportation, and certainly it would not fit in with the wonderful service the minister is anticipating giving to the people of Canada. I know Toronto bay very well, having had boats on the bay for a number of years, and I understand there is a great number of speed boats in Toronto bay which would be available and could transport airplane passengers from the island to the city very much better than any chain ferry. I think it would be possible for the minister to have these speed boats transport passengers from the point where the airplanes will land to the foot of York street, which is within four hundred yards of the union station, within a little more than five minutes, and I do not think the cost would be very great. I would suggest, therefore, that the minister give consideration, as a temporary means of transportation at all events, to using speed boats for transporting airplane passengers from the island to the city.


Clarence Decatur Howe: So far as the service between the island and the city is concerned, that is entirely a matter for the city of Toronto. The airports are both owned by the city of Toronto. We contribute part of the cost. Toronto will operate the airports, and we [DOT]will lease from that city certain facilities which we require.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: Then so far as the government is concerned, the island being the airport, that will be the place to dump off passengers for Toronto! Just dump them off at the island! Never mind about how they

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get to Toronto! Dump them off at the island -as if that was their destination! Is that what the minister means?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We shall certainly demand
that transportation be provided from the island or we shall not go there.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I have two things to commend the minister for, first for his efficient staff, a representative of which visited the head of the lakes this summer. I was appalled at the amount of work that had to be done before a landing field could be brought into existence. It is necessary for cities themselves to be air-minded, as this committee seems to be to-night, and it is necessary for the city to cooperate in providing landing facilities. We shall have at the head of the lakes a landing field that will not be surpassed even by the one at Vancouver, and anybody from the east who wants to visit the great wheat fields of Saskatchewan will find a nice cool spot at the head of the lakes to land, because Fort William passed their by-law yesterday.
Another thing for which I would commend the minister is that not even a cabinet minister will get a free ride in these planes. That means that there will not be any passes even for members of parliament. We should commend the minister for this unselfish act.


David James Hartigan: I was quite disappointed when I heard the minister outline the air service as regards the maritime provinces. It is almost enough to make persons coming from the maritime provinces feel that they were ostracized as far as airport services were concerned.


Mr. SPENCE:: You ostracize yourself by
living there.


David James Hartigan: We feel that we are
still a part of Canada; we have supported every move for the benefit of Canada; our people are spread over every part of the dominion; our ancestors were pioneers in most of the services that originated since Canada was Canada. It comes down to this, that the maritime provinces have been left out in the cold to a very great extent, since the Canadian National railways took over the Intercolonial railway. I do not blame the minister at all for this; but it is just one more instance of the fact that our civil service appointees, men who have probably been long in the service, and "know it all," cast their eyes over Canada and say, "This is for this, and that is for that." Is there any person who has the least inkling of what is going on in Canada to-day who will contend that
the dominion can, on the one hand, get rid of government responsibility in the transportation of passengers from Moncton to Halifax and Sydney and, on the other, assume full responsibility for transportation, machines and equipment, airport facilities and everything else from Moncton west? [DOT]
As regards the provision of facilities from Moncton east we know that even under today's conditions fog is practically no impediment, because the beam ray will take planes in. We know that it took planes in from the Pacific coast in the height of fog, because, listening over the radio, we were told of the arrival of Miss Earhart's plane when she landed in San Francisco, and there was a severe fog at the time. That, in spite of all the improvements which have been made, all the equipment which has been provided, and the vast amount of money which the dominion is asked to vote for air services, one of the oldest provinces of Canada is to be left without proper facilities, redounds to the discredit of the aviation branch of the dominion government.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I do not know much about
air services; but I observe that the government is about to spend approximately one and three-quarter million dollars, and I see that the minister is being pestered on all sides by hon. members from every part of the country suggesting that their particular locality is the best place to spend this money on. My suggestion to the minister is to take very little notice of appeals of this kind. He should be guided solely by what he considers is the best advice obtainable from the most competent officials. That being done, I do not care what part of the country gets the service. Sometimes we regard Canada as the centre of the universe, and Winnipeg may be the centre of Canada, but I am not asking particularly for any service in Winnipeg if the requirements are not there to justify it. I do say this, that one hon. member after another in this chamber should not rise in his place and demand from the minister certain facilities if the services are not required. If they are required in the mari-times, I am satisfied to leave it to the minister and his officials to provide the necessary facilities.


Robert Emmett Finn: You do not represent the mari-times.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I may say with reference to the maritimes that $300,000 have been spent. We have fields under way at Upper Brockway, Blissville, Cambridge, Havelock, Moncton, West Brook and Stanley, and we have

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fairly adequate municipal fields at Moncton, Saint John, Halifax, New Glasgow and Sydney. We have good municipal fields at Charlottetown and Summerside. With the work we expect to do there this year we believe that the maritime provinces will be as well equipped as any other part of Canada.


Abraham Albert Heaps: In view of the statement the minister has made as to the amount of money already spent, can he give the committee some idea as to what the revenues are likely to be after all the fields have been equipped and the services are in operation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member means, the revenue for the use of the fields?


Abraham Albert Heaps: All told.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is very hard to estimate that. There is no service now. We are starting from zero to build a service. We anticipate that it will be self-supporting from the start. Just how long it will take to make the fields themselves self-supporting I cannot say.


Mr. HAMILTON:: Having listened to those who are getting the cream of the service, and not wishing to speak for my own constituency in particular, I believe quite a number of members will be interested in knowing whether there is any general policy with reference to feeder lines, if at a later date the minister can say what policy will be adopted in so far as the Canadian airways are concerned as to feeders into the main trans-Canada system. Many cities and areas of considerable settlement are off the main air line, and I believe that a large part of the country would be interested in knowing if there is any policy or any anticipated policy as to how that situation will be dealt with.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As I said before, it altogether depends on the traffic that will originate on a route of that kind. If there is a real advantage in moving mail by aeroplane rather than by train, there will probably be a reason for the route and revenues to warrant its establishment. It all depends on that. Anywhere that private enterprise can find a profitable operation, they will undoubtedly apply to the post office for payment for a mail service, which is the back-bone of all operations.


Henry Sidney Hamilton: That will be by private enterprise?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Private enterprise.


Mr. POTTIER:: May I remind the hon. member for Winnipeg North, dealing with the statement that we from the maritimes should leave all these matters of policy to the minister, that we are quite willing to do that if the west will follow the same policy.
[Mr. Howe.J


Abraham Albert Heaps: So far as I am concerned, I am quite willing.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: As I understood from the minister, the policy of the department is to have a centre station at Moncton and then connect with other cities. Did the minister mean only cities in the maritimes, or towns, or districts? Are we to take it literally that the orders are to connect only with the cities?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should perhaps have said, large centres of traffic.


Frank Exton Lennard: I also am rather in disagreement with some of the remarks of the hon. member for Winnipeg North. In referring a few minutes ago to Hamilton, I am sure the minister knows I did not ask him to spend one cent there. I would, however, ask him what his findings were when he visited that city last summer, as to whether the city is cooperating, and just what the conditions were as he found them.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The situation at Hamilton was very fully explored. A tentative agreement was drawn up by our department, and we are waiting for the city of Hamilton to execute it Then we shall be ready to proceed.


Mr. McINTOSH:: I was not in the chamber when the discussion started this evening on the main transcontinental air line. From the standpoint of the province of Saskatchewan and the constituency of North Battleford there are some aspects of this transportation problem by air that are interesting and important. I wish to stress a few of these. For instance, there is the trans-Canada air line passing through the southern part of the province from Winnipeg to Lethbridge. I understand that the main port of call, in fact the only one, is Regina, and that will develop air business east and west; but it does not touch the northern nor the central part of the province at all.
The whole trend of business and population now is northward and this will continue, not only during the next ten years but decades after that. Consequently, from the standpoint of air development there are other angles of the question that are of great importance. Take, for instance, trade into the north. I understand that the minister is dealing largely with the main air line and the development of business on that line and, therefore, I shall not go into the question of northern development by air to-night. I shall do that again. It is, however, becoming more important every year, and places from which that northern air business will be developed- and is developing-will be the leading points across the northern part of the province, North Battleford, Prince Albert, Melfort and so on.
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Next, there is the feeder air line service. I understand that this service into Regina will be a five city tie-up which will include Regina, Moose Jaw, North Battleford, Saskatoon and Prince Albert. If the minister has not made a complete statement with reference to this feeder air service, I should like to have a few words from him in that regard if he has anything important to mention.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I understand that the Post Office Department is now calling for tenders for the service to serve these cities. The schedule has been prepared by that department to suit their requirements, and it is expected that the contract will be awarded shortly.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: I appreciate the fact that money is necessary for the development of trans-Canada airways, and for Canada what is contemplated is a large expenditure. Can the minister tell us whether the department has made any estimates of the approximate deficits which will be incurred in connection with airways for the next five or six years?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The airways divide themselves into two parts, one being simply operation, the other the maintenance of airports. Trans-Canada Air Lines will handle the operation and it is thought that this will be selfsupporting from the start; but as regards revenue from the air fields, it is hopeless to expect any return until there is a greater density of traffic than exists at the initial stage. One plane landing per day at a field will not pay the operating expenses of that field. It is difficult to say how many years it will be before the fields themselves pay their operating expenses.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The minister says it is hard to tell us how long it will be before they pay their way. We should like to know what the cost will be. Is it going to be $5, or $500, or $50,000,000 or what?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The cost of operating the department's fields-radio and weather service- is a little short of a million dollars a year. We shall recover a little of that but, in the initial stages, very little. There will be some revenue from the use of the fields.


Cameron Ross McIntosh: Can the minister tell us approximately when the five city daily air feeder service from Regina, through Moose Jaw, Saskatoon, North Battleford, to Prince Albert and back to Regina will likely commence?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That matter is not within the jurisdiction of this department, but I assume, from the developments which are taking place, that it will be around June or July.


Ernest Edward Perley: The hon. member for North Battleford (Mr. McIntosh) has taken us back to Saskatchewan, and I would ask one or two questions relative to that province. Can the minister give us some details with regard to the airport now in course of construction south of the town of Broadview, Saskatchewan, and why the landing field that had been established near the town of Broadview was abandoned? That was a port on which there had been a considerable expenditure for improvements and it was a nice level field taking in nearly a quarter section. I should like to know why it was abandoned and a field some eight or ten miles further south taken instead. At the same time, would the minister give us some details with respect to the amount that will be expended on improving the airport at Regina. I have asked all these questions at once because it is difficult to get the floor.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Broadview airport was leased by the government. The field was about fifteen miles off the straight line; we straightened the line and put the beams on, and we found it desirable to purchase another piece of property at Broadview. The land cost $1,486.50.


Richard Bedford Bennett: How many acres?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Roughly, a square mile.
Answering the question with regard to Regina, the department contributed $48,000 to the Regina field this year, which is the amount the city is entitled to, having regard to the amount the city itself spent. The Broadview field is 585^ acres.


Ernest Edward Perley: In a return tabled it was given as thirty acres.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That thirty acres is the site for the beacon, the radio beam station. That is away from the main airport; I was referring to the main airport at Broadview. Two miles away from that, thirty acres of land were taken over for the radio beam, but that is another transaction.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Reading this item, I notice in brackets after it the word "capital." I take it that this is a capital expenditure and I shall be glad if the minister will explain it; that is, the capital set-up, how much has been invested in this way, and whether in that is included the cost of fields which were established some years ago under a relief program. What is the capital investment, how is it set up and how is this to be paid? Is it to be paid by borrowing? In the public works department, where we had a capital expenditure it was not paid out of revenue at all. The expenditure on the airway
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to date is about $9,000,000, including the money spent under relief votes. About $5,000,000 has been expended by the civil aviation branch directly. This, I understand, has all been charged to revenue.


Mr. ESLING:: In view of the fact that federal engineers have been running lines on Kootenay flats in the vicinity of Creston, is the minister in a position to say whether the construction of a landing field at that point is being considered?


Clarence Decatur Howe: A field is being considered there. It is a wide valley; we would like to have a field that is capable of being approached as a blind landing, but we have not finally decided yet to establish a field at Creston.


William Kemble Esling: In view of the fact that the industry at Trail is credited with having the largest export mail of any industry in the dominion, is the minister in a position to suggest what means of reaching the main lines of service will be followed?
iMr. HOWE: I am not able to do that at the moment. The matter of stops and subsidiary services is largely one for the Post Office Department to work out. We operate this service largely to meet the requirements of the Post Office Department. As far as our own operation goes, of course the fewer stops we have the better it suits us.


Denton Massey: What arrangements are
being made or what are the plans in connection with taking mail from incoming ships either at Halifax or in the gulf of St. Lawrence? At present there is, I believe, a service that runs from Montreal and Quebec to Rimouski-or is it Father Point-and mail is taken from the transatlantic ships there and flown to those ports. Is it the intention to continue that service and also to extend the service to and from Halifax in the winter?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have a service in summer from Father Point to Montreal. That service will be continued this year, and when the transatlantic service starts both services will be combined. Naturally we shall move all the mail we can by air.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: That would apply only to the Bummer months?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: What about the winter?


Mr. EVANS:: What is the position as to the radio beam station at Maple Creek? Is it the intention to move that station from that town north?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, that is the intention; the field will be moved north.


Charles Robert Evans: Both the station and the field?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Denton Massey: What type of ship is it planned to fly on the trans-Canada route, and what designating insignia does the minister plan to place upon them?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Standard equipment will be the Lockheed 14; the designation will be TCA with a maple leaf.


Denton Massey: How many passengers do they carry? Are they over-night planes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The planes have fourteen seats; that would be twelve passengers. There is no sleeping accommodation; but they are very comfortable planes, widely used in the western section of the United States for overnight work.


Denton Massey: Is it the plan of the Trans-Canada Air Lines to fly bigger ships later, depending on how much traffic there is; and, if so, will they be sleeper planes? The minister I believe, mentioned it is an over-night flight from Winnipeg to Montreal.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The size of the planes of
course will depend entirely on the density of traffic. I hope the traffic will soon warrant larger planes, and, if so, we shall certainly provide sleeping accommodation.


Denton Massey: I notice the amount to
be spent under this item this year is approximately the same as last; therefore one can assume that there will be steady development of the airways. I think I mentioned last year when the estimates were before the committee that we are not naturally an air-minded people in Canada yet, as far as passengers are concerned. That is strange in view of the fact that we are the nation which has flown more freight than any other twro nations together in the world, and as I have already mentioned, has been most successful as far as pilots are concerned. The success of this system will depend entirely on the amount of traffic carried. Bearing in mind that we. as a people, are not particularly air-minded, has the minister anything to tell the committee in regard to projected advertising to bring to the attention of the people of this dominion the fact that they will have available an air transport system which is efficient, rapid and safe?


Clarence Decatur Howe: 
Denton Massey: What has been done in
regard to the tying-in of the present northern Ontario routes for flying freight? As the minister well knows, and as I have just stated, we are flying more freight in northern Ontario and the northern parts of the prairie provinces as well, than any other two nations in the world. Is there any tie-in of the Trans-Canada lines planned with these present private lines? Is it the intention that they remain as private lines, functioning as they have in the past?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The private lines of course
are functioning now, and the Trans-Canada is not. But the Trans-Canada will have stops at the main air bases from which these private lines fly, and there will be traffic arrangements with them. We are not interfering in any way with the private flying that is now being done, and will not do so except to cooperate in exchange of traffic. But our line is very favourably based to tie in with these operations.


Denton Massey: Last year the minister
stated that it was the intention of Trans-Canada Air Lines to have no service between Toronto and Montreal, the two largest population centres in the dominion. It seemed strange to some at that time that that was to be the case. To-night the minister mentioned that the route from Montreal would pass through Toronto. Does he mean that Trans-Canada planes will fly to Ottawa, to Reay, to Toronto and to Winnipeg, or is it the intention to fly direct from Montreal to Winnipeg and run a feeder line to and from Toronto as was suggested last year? And is it suggested that there will be a direct line from Toronto to Montreal without going roundabout?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I covered that earlier; planes will leave Montreal for Ottawa, Killaloe, Reay, Toronto, and then from Toronto back to Reay and on to North Bay and the west. As the traffic develops, we hope there will be sufficient for a plane from Montreal to Vancouver and another from Toronto to Vancouver, in which event there will undoubtedly be a short service between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. But the air fields that I have
mentioned will be those used for that service, being expensive fields and fully equipped. No purpose would be served by trying a shorter route; with the high speed equipment we are using the saving of distance would be fully offset by the slower type of plane that would have to be used on the shorter route.


Denton Massey: Has the minister any idea
of the flying schedule that will be planned between, say Toronto, Montreal and Winnipeg, or Toronto and Winnipeg?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. The present plan which I think would suit the Post Office Department is to leave Montreal at eight o'clock, be in Ottawa about eighty-thirty, Toronto about nine-thirty, leave for the west about ten o'clock, arriving at Vancouver the next day at noon.


Howard Charles Green: What is the situation with respect to the transatlantic service. What are the plans for that service?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Test flights were carried out last summer with equipment which happened to be available, and those flights proved to be very successful. From the data collected, the planes which will actually be used in the routes are now being developed, and it is expected that further flights will take place as soon as spring arrives. I think it is quite within the range of possibility that mail will be carried on that route before the end of this season, although I cannot say that definitely. We have had information from England and the United States indicating that there is a possibility of that being carried out. I may say that everything which has been found out to date with respect to that route is entirely favourable, and we think it is only a matter of a year or two before the service will be in steady operation.


Howard Charles Green: What service is to be given, and what length of time will be required to fly the route?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Something less than twenty-four hours from Montreal to Southampton. I believe the service will be twice a week, each way.


Howard Charles Green: What plans are being made for a route from British Columbia to Australia, New Zealand and the orient? Has that been under consideration?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


James Joseph McCann: What amount has been expended to date on the airport at Killaloe? Is the work completed, and, if not, what is the contemplated expenditure this year?
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Clarence Decatur Howe: The cost of land at Killaloe
was $8,488; the expenditure to date in the development of land was $86,364, and the estimated expenditure to complete, which will be carried out this year is $11,720.


Mr. GRAYDON:: As the minister is aware, the auxiliary municipal airport for Toronto is situated at Malton, in the county I represent. We are very proud of the airport, and have been told on many occasions that it is perhaps one of the greatest airports on the continent. I have heard with much interest and satisfaction statements which have been made by some hon. members concerning other airports in Canada. I should like the minister to assure me that the Malton airport ranks with high favour among the various ports of Canada. Perhaps he would be good enough to say whether or not the Malton airport is at present highest in standing of all those in the dominion.


James Houston Spence: The city of Toronto pays for it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no airport at Malton yet; but it is well spoken of, and I think when it is completed it will be a very fine airport.


Mr. PURDY:: I am sure other hon. members from Nova Scotia were disappointed this evening when we heard that the trans-Canada air line would end at Moncton, instead of Halifax. I have before me a map published a short time ago by one of the departments, in which the Trans-Canada Air Lines are shown as going to Halifax. I am sure the Minister of Trade and Commerce will be disappointed to get word to-night that that is not so, because in the publication "Canada, 1938" the map appears, and in a statement signed by the minister I find:
The hand book is designed to serve two purposes. To those outside of Canada it will give a well rounded picture of the Canadian situation from Atlantic to Pacific. In Canada itself it will help to provide a better basis of information for dealing with current problems.
My first question is this: Is it now proposed to change the name of the Trans-Canada Air Lines to conform to the actual situation of the proposed route? My second question is, coming down to serious matters: What has been the experience as to fog conditions at Stanley, in Hants county, where intermediate landing fields are being developed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: All I can say is that it is a trifle better than Halifax, but not as good as Moncton.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I do not wish to say much concerning the eastern terminus of the Trans-Canada Air Lines. I believe, however, that
TMr. McCann.]
the minister and his department might well be commended at least by some hon. members from New Brunswick for selecting Moncton as the terminus. It is well known that Moncton and its vicinity are free from fog, and it is known, too, that when a few years ago the Italian airmen were selecting a port to land their ships on the Atlantic coast, they selected Shediac, because it was more free from fog than any other part of the Atlantic coast in the vicinity.


Robert Emmett Finn: Just then.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I do not think the minister is to be condemned for having selected Moncton as an airport. I am inclined to think he should be commended.


Robert Emmett Finn: The hon. member who has just taken his seat has made a statement which I believe is absolutely correct. It appears to me that there is a lack of candidness, not on the part of the minister, but on the part of those who are supplying him with information. The crux of the situation is that, so far as the east is concerned, the trans-Canada airways will go from Shediac, in crossing the Atlantic. No transatlantic liners make Shediac a terminus. The Minister of Transport is responsible for the Canadian National Railways, the largest single transcontinental system in Canada or the United States. When the St. Lawrence is closed by ice, Halifax is the natural port; I do not say that in a spirit of rancour or to cause discord.
I will say that all Canadian Pacific ships going to Saint John, carrying passengers, land first at Halifax to drop passengers and mail. Are the passengers on Atlantic liners landing at Halifax to be told that they will be taken care of by some fantastic private company, and probably sent off into eternity before they reach their destination at Moncton or Montreal? I believe we are entitled to this information from the minister, or the officers of his department. Those officers are highly paid; therefore they must be highly efficient, and he must have all the information necessary to give each hon. member a full knowledge of what he is going to do with the trans-Canada airway system.
The Minister of Transport stated that the airways were to be taken care of by the Canadian National Railways, and that Mr. Hungerford, the head of the railways, is to be head of the airways. At first we were going to have fifty-one per cent of the stock; and the balance was going to be given to the public. However, so far not one dollar's worth has been sold to the public. It all remains with the Canadian National Railways. These gentlemen-President Hungerford, his

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officers and board of directors-have padlocked the whole Canadian National railway system, and it would take all the tons of dynamite used in the late war to get satisfactory information from that president and board of directors. They simply tell us it is none of our business. They are a corporation within themselves-and a corporation is not supposed to have any soul. But we have souls. We are responsible to the people who have sent us here. We are entitled to the information, and we should get it. We are not living in Russia. We are not living in Italy. We are not living in Germany. We are here, in a young and great democratic country, with infinite possibilities ahead of us. The democracy of this country is demonstrated by the fact that there are so many different groups outside the " two great parties " that have always been the leaders of the people.
A short time ago the Minister of Transport made a damaging statement with reference to air travel from Moncton to Halifax. He stated that there was too much fog and that too many people had been killed. When I asked him for detailed information, his answer was a smile. That information has not yet been given. I do not expect this information to-night, but I think the minister should assure me and other members of the committee that he will have the officers of his department tabulate all accidents which have happened since he has been head of the department. This tabulation should show the number of accidents that happened in the air, the number that happened when planes were approaching the landing ports, and the number that happened after the planes had landed. With that information before us we shall then know whether the statement should be retracted. I am quite sure that when the minister has that information he will be only too willing to retract his statement. It is a black eye, and we get too many of them down in the maritimes and particularly at the port of Halifax.
I do not want to say anything further about the port of Saint John, other than to say to my hon. friend that there is ten times as much fog in Saint John as ever comes into Halifax. The fog is off Halifax harbour; it does not come into the harbour. Flying would be perfectly safe if you had a radio beam. I can remember the first trip the minister took. He started off in thunder and lightning and had to come back when the beam was not working. They got it working and he took another try, landed in Winnipeg and finally arrived safely in Vancouver.
I should like him to reverse that trip. I want him to start, not in thunder and lightning, but on a starry night. I want him to fly east and I know he will find that the conditions he spoke of to-night do not exist. This trans-Canada system should extend from Vancouver to Halifax. That was my understanding of the undertaking when it was first mooted. It may be all right for the flyers if they are going to stop at Moncton or go down to Shediac. The Italian flyers flew there and they considered it the best place possible. They did not know anything about Canada and they had better get Mussolini to let them come back again. I am reminded of the famous flyer who landed at Toronto and then said he would never come back again. That was a damaging statement to be made by a pilot of outstanding ability.
I do not want to prolong this discussion, but I want to remind the minister that Nova Scotia is not being considered as part of this trans-Canada airway scheme. We do not want to be sectional, but we feel we are entitled to the same consideration as has been given to. other parts of Canada. My hon. friend said to me in conversation that this year Halifax has had the greatest tonnage in shipping in her history. That may be so, but that does not mean that employment is given to our men. Many of the liners anchor back of " George island," and the tenders go out to meet them; the only money paid out is to the pilots and by way of port dues. The stevedores and dockworkers still remain at home and many of them, as well as their families, I sadly fear, are hungry to-night in their homes.
These conditions must be ameliorated. I think I speak for other hon. members from Nova Scotia as they spoke for themselves tonight, when I say that we are not going to put up with this treatment. We are not speaking in any narrow sense, but we feel that we should start right on this matter. AVe started wrong on the railways, so let us keep the airways out of the Canadian National Railways. The only information we can get about the railways as to money expended is the capital expenditures. If the bookkeeping for this system is to be the same as that used in the Canadian National Railways under President Hungerford and his board of directors, then there will be a fog all over Canada. We shall know less about the airways than we do about the railways, and about the railways we know practically nothing, apart from capital expenditures to better the system.
I do not make these remarks in a personal way; but in view of what has happened in the past, considering the present and looking down the vista of the future, I think we should start this thing right. I believe this has

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been exemplified by the action taken by the governments of the various provinces in connection with the amendments to the British North America Act and the righting of the wrongs that have been done under that act. Now is the time to deal with this matter and get it on a solid foundation. Then, with the expert knowledge which the minister has at his disposal, we shall be able to deal intelligently with the voting of these vast sums of money. The government seems to be disinterested as far as Nova Scotia is concerned, but I think we are entitled to get the information when, where and how-I mean "h-o-w", not the hon. minister, "H-o-w-e".


James Houston Spence: We have had a long discussion on a subject with which few of us are familiar. I congratulate the hon. member who has just sat down upon the pertinent remarks he has made. Attention should be given to what he has said. I agree with the hon. member for Winnipeg North who said that he thought it would be a good thing to leave this matter to the minister. If I were in the place of the minister I believe I would select the best possible advice and operate these flying boats or flying ships from the places where the most business could be obtained. I would want to lose as little money as possible and make air travel as safe as I could, and I would pay very little attention to hon. members who wanted to give advice, such as has been given to-night. We know that every hon. member would like to have a flying ship landed in his own back yard.


Robert Emmett Finn: I have no back yard. I live in the eastern gateway of Canada. We all know what is carved in the stone on the front
of this house of parliament:
The wholesome sea is at her gates,
Her gates both east and west.


James Houston Spence: 
John Ritchie MacNicol: Change the government and all the services will be paying.


James Houston Spence: I would not promise that; I am not giving to making promises, and if I were the minister I would be making very few. He has been asked many questions tonight to which no man can give an intelligent answer. I am not blaming him, because people are asking him questions that no man can answer. The minister is telling the committee what he thinks might happen, but it is purely conjecture, to be taken for what it is worth.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Would it not be
possible for the trans-Canada air route to be wholly across Canada, without going over any part of the United States? My second question is:	What proportion of the cost of airports is borne by the municipalities and what by the dominion government?


Clarence Decatur Howe: 
James Joseph McCann: Has the company established a schedule of passenger rates yet, and, if so, what approximately will be the rate from Montreal to Vancouver?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Airplane travel costs, roughly, six cents a mile. The matter of rates has not been brought to my attention, but I dare say some people are studying it. I could not answer the question.


Mr. BARBER:: I would like to take the
minister and the committee back to the coast again, as we have now spent considerable time in the east. I think it was the policy of the department, when the idea of the trans-Canada service was first considered, to establish emergency landing fields about thirty miles apart. In the fall of 1934 officers of the department made a survey by plane, and selected landing fields particularly in the southern part of British Columbia. The minister mentioned two of them to-night. One of them was the emergency landing field at Hope, and the other was the emergency landing field at Langley. In that survey there was an emergency landing field at Hope, another one thirty miles west at Chilliwack, and thirty miles further west took them to Langley airport. A number of people, including those who own private airplanes and do considerable flying, are of the opinion that the department has made a mistake in abandoning Chilliwack landing field and taking
up Langley. I am sure if the minister personally visited the two places-I know he went over that district one day, but he was too high up in the clouds to see the location of the two fields-he would realize the superiority of Chilliwack. First, let me point out that the Chilliwack landing field is used today, and has been for some time, by eight planes. It consists of 160 acres; does not require drainage, but it might require a little finishing and the putting in of runways. In 1935 the government secured an option on it for $16,000, or $100 an acre, and that item appeared in the estimates for two sessions; but immediately on civil aviation being transferred to the new department over which the minister presides, that item was eliminated from the estimates.
I find now that work is being proceeded with at the Langley airport, where ninety acres of land have been purchased at a cost of $24,411.60; I do not know how they get those odd figures. This figures out at $272 an acre, and they have expended on the field to date $48,437. In other words, the port so far has cost $72,848, and the estimated amount required to complete the field is $15,925, making a total cost of $88,773. That is the picture we have of the Langley field, and it would not be too bad if it was a field that airplanes could land on; but airmen who are passing up and down tell me that it certainly would be some great emergency before they would ever undertake to land there. The field is located at the foot of a hill, and is right in the fog belt, as bad if not a worse fog belt than Vancouver, and the field subject to flood. I hav e an extract from an independent paper published in the district, which I think I had better read to show the committee what the people there think of this field:
If the latter amount-
That is the $72,848 already spent:
has been spent to get the field into its present condition, most observers will doubt the statement that $16,000 will complete it. The condition of the field was well expressed the other day by a strong Liberal when he said that there was too much water on it for land planes and not enough for sea planes. From the field's appearance during recent weeks it would require a rotary drill to find any plane that might be forced to land anywhere in the 90-acre block Then there is the matter of fog which so frequently envelopes the field. Experts in these matters may know what they are about but to the layman the demonstration so far lacks much of what might be expressed in terms of practicability.
As regards fog conditions, I repeat that I believe, if the minister himself had seen those two fields and inquired personally about them, he would not have hesitated one minute to
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choose the Chilliwack field. Why has the Langley field been, chosen? First, political pressure on the minister.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Bought in 1934, was it not?


Harry James Barber: That does not make any difference. Options were taken on all these fields in 1935.


Clarence Decatur Howe: 1934, I think.


Harry James Barber: The reply to the question is 1935. The first was 1935. An option was taken at Chilliwack at the same time on one hundred and sixty acres. I am not blaming the minister personally. I would not accuse him of doing this. I believe there was considerable pressure brought to bear on him from the minister for British Columbia and from the hon. member for New Westminster, and I believe he has been misinformed by the officers of his department. I have asked for correspondence, which has not been brought down here yet, although the order for return passed the house on the fourteenth instant.
Before I left Chilliwack for the east, a letter was read to the executive of the board of trade, which reached there through Liberal channels, stating that the reason the development there was not proceeded with was that conditions in the Chilliwack district are the same as in Vancouver and Langley. That is absolutely false. Eight machines have been taking off and flying from that field during last year. One has kept a careful log which shows that there was not one day during 1937 when they could not land and take off from that field. What do we know about the Vancouver field? And Langley? Any one who travels by automobile knows that he can leave Vancouver in sunshine, get in the fog belt at Langley and break out again within ten or fifteen miles of Chilliwack field. I am advised the United air lines could not land in Vancouver from December 3 to December 23; that was but one period among others when they could not land. I say to the minister that the log which was kept last year shows that this Chilliwack field is not in the fog belt, and there is not an air man who travels that country, not a man who drives a car up and down to Vancouver, but will tell him that the fog reaches to within ten or fifteen miles west of the ChilliwTack airport. That fog is like a wall. These men have taken off in their machines, gone over that wall, over that ceiling and back again. I wish the minister would look personally into this.
The department is going to spend $90,000 on a field in the Langley district. The expenditure of the money will do considerable good as far as employment is concerned, but

it is the opinion of a number of air men in both Chilliwack and district that they will never be able to use that field, whereas the other one is being used to-day. That option can be renewed at $16,000, and if it were necessary to spend another $10,000 the cost would not be within a third of what the Langley field is costing. I say without hesitation that there has been political pressure to have this field established at Langley. Some Liberals in my riding have not hesitated to say, " The reason you have not got the field is because you elected a Conservative member." I do not blame the minister personally; I do not believe he would consider the political angle in connection with a policy of establishing an air line across Canada. I do not think he would say, " Here is a Conservative constituency; we cannot put our line through that, we will dodge down through the United States and back again to miss it." I believe that if the matter had been left to the minister personally; if he had gone in and looked over the situation, there would have been no doubt about his decision. I believe the department will have to come to the Chilliwack field. It was mentioned at a meeting in Vancouver the other day, that if they arrived at Vancouver in a fog, they would likely have to return to Lethbridge. I believe they fly at a height of 16,000 feet. I have done a little travelling by air, and I understand that what they do, in case of fog, is to land as closely as they can to the terminus and from there take other transportation. We -were in hopes that the Chilliwack field would serve for that purpose, a field of 160 acres which has been used for a number of years.


John Frederick Johnston: Does the vote carry?


Richard Bedford Bennett: No.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If we have made a mistake in choosing a field out there we shall very soon realize it. Once the planes are operating daily, if we need additional facilities the fact will become quite obvious and we shall have to look about for them. But I think at the moment we are so close to having an actual demonstration of the situation there, through every day flying, that we should wait and get that information.


Harry James Barber: I am sure the local air men would be pleased to permit the minister to land on that field some day when he finds he cannot reach Vancouver.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Thank you very much.


Harry James Barber: Because they tell me the largest plane that reaches the coast could land on that field to-day.



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Richard Bedford Bennett: I am sure the minister must regard the statement which has just been made as one of great seriousness. Are we to throw away eighty or ninety thousand dollars of this country's money? It is not a question of finding out a mistake and remedying it; the question is, Shall we throw away the money now that the facts have been stated? I have been at the coast several times this last year, and undoubtedly the view prevails that that place is entirely too wet to make a decent airport, at least for a land plane, and there is not enough water for a sea plane. The hon. member has brought that to the attention of the minister and has said to him: This merits investigation before further public money is expended. A man who certainly never mixes in politics, talking about business and business administration and the capacity of the minister as a business man, said he was surprised that the minister would permit this thing to be done. I wonder if the minister realizes just what is meant by it? It means we are going to throw away eighty or ninety thousand dollars on a place which cannot be made into an airport, and it cannot be made into an airport for two good reasons: One is fog, and the other is damp; one is water, the other is the condition of the air. I submit to the minister that if ever there was a case brought to the attention of the head of the department that merited the closest investigation before a single additional dollar is spent, this is that case. The minister knows perfectly well that when we had to acquire these sites away back in 1934 and 1935, some in the early part of 1935, and some in connection with relief works, what was done was not to content ourselves with taking one option; options were taken on more than one site, and then investigations were made in several cases for the purpose of ascertaining which was the better or the best, as the case might be.
I put this to the minister as a business man. In the conduct of his business, if it were represented to him by reputable people that conditions were such that it would be impossible to utilize a particular property for the purpose for which it was acquired, would he proceed without making further investigation? From what I know of him as a business executive he would not do so. To-day he is a minister, and all the pressure in the world, from all the friends in the world, should not permit him to go forward with an expenditure of public moneys without satisfying himself that that is the better site. Any other action on his part would, under our system of government, certainly place him in a most difficult position. It would not, of course, if a very large number of supporters stated that
his conclusions were sound, whatever they might be. That is the essence of party government, but it is not the essence of government if the minister is to utilize the vast experience and wide knowledge he has as a business man in determining what is the best thing that can be done for the state in the expenditure of public moneys.
One word more to my friends from the maritime provinces. However difficult it may be, I never forget that I was born there; and when I realize that all the members from the lower provinces, except one, support the government in power, I realize how difficult their position is with respect to this matter. But I put this to the minister and ask him to balance it up on this basis: If you are warranted in providing a subsidy for the operation of an air service between Edmonton and the Yukon, having a population to be served with mail as limited as it is, do you think for a single moment that the maritimes should be treated in this manner? Apply that test, just that simple, single test. Later I am going to direct attention to something that came to my own notice, which would not be tolerated in western Canada. Do you realize that passengers, in order to board a train going to Saint John from Moncton-and this applies to aged people as well as the young-[DOT] have to climb over a platform on a standing train? How long would that be tolerated in western Canada? And yet that is the condition which exists in the maritimes. That is the reason the maritimes complain, and properly so, about the treatment they receive.
I wrote to both the general manager and the president with respect to this treatment. The answer was, "Oh well, it has been going on a long time." Of course it has, and the people there have suffered and have endured it. But we would not tolerate it. Take the old station at Toronto. Everyone knows that the minute the train came in, it was cut in two in order that passengers might cross on level tracks. I saw an old lady down in the maritimes lifting herself up slowly, without assistance, over a platform on a standing ear of the maritime express and then going down the other side in order to get on the train that would take her to Saint John. I asked, "Don't you split these trains?" I was told that they never do.
Surely it is no political consideration that urges me to make these observations, for we have no supporters from that part of the country. I would point out, however, that that sort of thing should not be tolerated. Here we find the oldest part of confederation treated in this manner, and we are told that
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there is plenty of money provided for a new line, a private enterprise, from Edmonton to the Yukon, a mail subsidy being given, when we know what the population in that part of the country is. We know what the population is in the Yukon and between the Yukon and Edmonton, and we know also that there are hundreds of thousands of people in the maritime provinces. We know that the largest steel industry in Canada is situated in Nova Scotia; and the people of that province, the people of Saint John and all the community that lies around it will be told, "Oh well, some day somebody will come along and give you a service and we will help them along with some assistance." That is not fair; it is not equitable, having regard to what I have said about the expenditure of public moneys and in view of statements made in this chamber by a member of this house. If it rested on that alone it might be said to be political, but consult any business man you please. That is the situation. Let us try to see if we cannot lift this thing up a little at least out of the fog of politics into the purer air of business transactions.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As regards the Langley Prairie airport, I inherited that. When it came to my attention, the land had been bought and the contract let to develop it. We let no new contract there and I know nothing about it personally. My officers tell me that it is the best piece of land in that vicinity. Since definite statements are made that it is not a suitable place, on the next occasion on which I go to Vancouver I shall personally examine it, and no new contract will be placed there in the meantime.
Let us understand the maritime situation. I am giving the maritime provinces the best system I know how to give them. I am not giving them a second-rate system. What is the alternative? Suppose we ran a high speed plane from Montreal to Halifax. You could hardly pass by Saint John if you went to Halifax. Well, suppose we stopped at Saint John. It is estimated by my department that such a route would have an operating efficiency of sixty per cent; we would complete about sixty per cent of the scheduled trips. With the route we have we can complete at least ninety per cent. Ninety days out of every hundred we have delivered our mail in Moncton. We have it in Moncton, anyway. If it is impossible to fly to Halifax any particular day, we can put it on the train and get it in within a few hours.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But there is no assurance of a movement to Halifax or to Saint John either. That is the whole trouble.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What nonsense that is.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Thank you.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Coming to the city of Regina, what do we do? We call for a specification for a route to serve the five prairie cities. We specify the type of equipment and the speed of the planes. We specify the number of stops to be made, and we require a guarantee of at least ninety-two per cent efficiency. We have said to the aviators of the world, "This is the equipment we must have; this is the schedule; this is the efficiency required. Bid us a price on mail at which you will perform that service."


Richard Bedford Bennett: Has that been done at Halifax?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not yet.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is the point.


Clarence Decatur Howe: When we are prepared for a service from Moncton we shall then similarly call for tenders from Moncton to Charlottetown, from Moncton to Sydney, from Moncton to Halifax and from Moncton to Saint John; and we shall specify the equipment. It will not be cheap equipment any more than it is in Saskatchewan; it will be just as good equipment, as comfortable from the passenger standpoint. However, the distances are short and the equipment will not be speedy, because such equipment is not required there. It will be equipment of the type that will land on the sort of field which can be built in Halifax and Saint John, the type of equipment that can be manoeuvred in difficult weather conditions; and we shall have a beam into each of these cities, so that flying will be done on just as good a beam as there is in the mainland operation. We shall have suitable facilities to handle passengers and mail at these points. We find, however, that with a small operation it is better to have private enterprise than public.


Robert Emmett Finn: It should be all one enterprise from Vancouver to Halifax.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If the maritimes feel that we should have government operation there, we shall have government operation. Personally I think they would be better served the other way. However, I do not suppose the expense to the dominion government would be very much different, and I would be prepared to discuss with the maritime delegation having Trans-Canada Air Lines operate those auxiliary services from the centre at Moncton. But it is perfect nonsense for any member to say here that we are not giving the maritime provinces the best. The reason we are stopping at

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Moncton is that it is the best thing for the maritime provinces. If it were better to stop at Halifax we would stop at Halifax; if Saint John were better we would stop at Saint John. But what nonsense it is to say that we are not giving the maritime provinces the best it is possible to give, consistent with the service we are giving any other part of Canada. I want to make it clear that nothing of the kind is intended and nothing of the kind will be done.


Richard Bedford Bennett: A United States line offered to run and did run from Boston to Halifax.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Why doesn't it still?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Because in the days of the old government we did not want to make ourselves dependent on a United States company.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Quite right, and we are not going to either. However, we have a line pushing up as far as Bangor and anxious to go further. There will be ways to get to Boston from Halifax, because they fly from Boston to Montreal in two hours.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It was suggested they could fly from Montreal to Saint John and across the bay of Fundy straight to Halifax.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That could be done, but it is fog operation; it would not be good.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Well, there is difference of opinion as to that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: However, we are going to see that the maritime provinces are properly served just as soon as it is possible to provide that service. But we are taking the things as we found them; when we took the department over we found the fields further advanced in the west and capable of being completed in a shorter time. We believed that the way to get the line in operation was to start operation, and we found that the quickest way to start operating was to concentrate on the completion of the fields from Winnipeg west. Now we are at the point that we can start operating that section. We are going to work east just as rapidly as we can. By midsummer we shall be in Montreal. It is possible we shall be at Moncton and on to Halifax at the end of this season; but I doubt it; I think it is more likely to be the beginning of next season.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am obliged to the minister for talking about nonsense. I am not directing his attention to the fact that it is not a parliamentary expression; I am content that he should make the statement. But I
think he should realize this, that they were running an air line from Moncton to Charlottetown four years ago-


Clarence Decatur Howe: And they are running it to-day.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Exactly. And the west
that he talks about-and I live there-had not developed these lines. What is more, they have been running to Halifax during the last four years. And what is more, they have been running from Montreal to Moncton during the last four years.


Clarence Decatur Howe: An occasional trip.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes; I am only indicating that the feasibility of it is established; that is the point. There is no question about its not being easy to do, or anything of that sort. And we have reached the point that we have made no arrangement whatever that contemplates air mail service being made available in the provinces of Nova Scotia or New Brunswick except as the mail arrives at Moncton for distribution.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Quite right.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is the story, and I say that is not in keeping with the other plans which have been placed before this country. While I owe only the allegiance that a man has by reason of birth in a particular locality, I do not think it is quite fair that we should spend all our effort in endeavouring to establish what they call feeder lines and other lines. Calgary is to be in the position of being on a feeder line. Large sums of money have been expended there, power and lighthouses established, routes surveyed, and now they say, "Well, the old field is not satisfactory for modem planes." And they need something else. The Department of National Defence, on which we have spent a large sum to provide an air field, is not going to cooperate with the Department of Transport for the purpose of using that piece of ground, bought by the crown, for the purpose of an air field. It is not going to be used because the Department of National Defence say it is not consonant with their dignity. I say that is wrong. I think the minister realizes that there is something wrong about that, when he says, " I asked the Minister of National Defence to do so and so but he does not want to let me have it." Have we reached that stage in this country when in regard to a field bought and equipped with the taxpayers' money, used for national defence, and with room enough to enable it to be used for civil aviation as well, they say, " Oh no, we cannot do that." Cooperation certainly means something better than that
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The minister knows this committee, this house would support him if he took the position that he must have the use of that field.
Why have two fields in one community? Why have one airport in Calgary for civil aviation and another for military aviation? It is there on top of the hill; atmospheric conditions are excellent; all that is necessary to do is to start a machine down the runway and get it off or to land there. I admit that there are certain strategic considerations which have to do with military airports, but they do not arise in connection with this matter. I say the minister would be warranted in taking a much stronger stand than to say, " The Minister of National Defence does not want me to go there." Well, the people want it; they paid for it and they have a right to it. Is it thus to remain idle-that is what it would mean practically-not be utilized for commercial purposes and the carrying of mail? After all we have done in connection with the expenditures for airports and lighting, I think that is wrong.
I am sure if the minister were similarly situated with respect to Port Arthur he would expect that some such arrangement would be made to permit this splendid airport to be used by both branches of our air service, civil aviation on the one hand and military on the other. I am sure the minister would not regard that as nonsense in business, from what I know of his capacity as a business man. In his business before he came into this house or since, he would not; or in the development of any work he has had to do, whether it were the preparation of a site for an elevator or the construction of an elevator, he would expect to coordinate every bit of facilities to attain the end he has in mind. All we want to do is to coordinate the airport facilities for the double purpose of civil aviation on the one hand and military on the other.


Mr. BETTS:: Would the minister let us know how far the officers of his department will go in cooperating with civic authorities who are trying to choose a site for an airport? Will they advise and help and give the benefit of their experience and skill?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, we shall be very glad to cooperate with any city that cares to have our cooperation. Whether we can assist them financially depends on how it works in with the general scheme.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is it under this item that the employment of the gentlemen whom the minister mentioned the other evening at the Chateau Laurier would come?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think this item had better remain over until the next day. There are some things to be said.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Friday, February 25, 1938