Hon. J. A. CALDER (Minister of Immigration and Colonization):: Mr. Speaker,
I beg to lay on the table of the House the First Annual Report of the Civil Service Commission on its Operations under the Act respecting the Retirement of Certain Members of the Public Service, as required by section 7, chapter 67, 10-11 George V. In other words, it is a report of the retirements made during the calendar year 1920 under the Retirement Act passed at the last session.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the Order being called, "Motions:"
Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Prime Minister) :: Mr. Speaker, I am ready to
move the motion for the appointment of the special railway committee of the House, authority for which was given in the form of a resolution passed on Friday, but owing to the absence of the leader of the Opposition I defer it for the present. Later in the afternoon I shall move that we revert to this Order.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 62 (from the Senate), for the relief of Frederick Harold Walton.-Mr. Fripp.
Bill No. 63 (from the Senate), for the relief of Mary Elizabeth Leonard.-Mr. Ball.
Bill No. 64 (from the Senate), for the relief for Alexander LaRue.-Mr. Douglas (Strathcona).
Bill No. 65 (from the Seriate), for the relief of Maria Martin Morel.-Mr. Fripp.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. DEMERS:: 1.	Does the Board of Arbitration, established pursuant to a convention called "Pecuniary Claims Convention" to give award upon the claims of money existing between the British Empire and the United States, among which a.re included the claims of Canadian hay dealers for overpaid rates of duty, still exist?
2.	If so, does the Government know when the reopening of the sittings of said Board, which have been suspended since 1914, will take place?
3.	Does the Government intend to take steps toward the resumption of the hearings of said Board in a near future?


Arthur Meighen: I
am informed that this question was answered on March 10 and that it appears on page 774 of Hansard. Perhaps it had better stay on the Order Paper, however, as the hon. member who put the question is not in his seat.
Question stands.


DAYLIGHT SAVING
Mr. ETHIER:: 1.	Is the Government aware that in certain sections of the country daylight saving has been prescribed as from May 1 to October 1 next?
2.	Is the Government aware that the change from solar time thus separately fixed, in various parts of the country, is such as to bring about great confusion and actual inconvenience, patricularly to the rural communities?
3.	Is it the intentio,n of the Government to pass legislation in this connection, through the enactment of a uniform statute providing for the regulation of the time throughout the Dominion?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	The Government is aware, through reports in newspapers and otherwise, that daylight saving has been prescribed, as from May 1 to October 1 and other dates, in certain sections of the country.
2.	The Government is not prepared to go into any explanations nor to give any information with reference to that complex question.
3.	It is not the intention of the Government to pass legislation, through the enactment of a uniform statute, providing for the regulation of the time throughout the Dominion.


BLOOD INDIAN RESERVE
*Mr. MOLLOY:: 1.	Did the Government of Canada in the year 1883 make and conclude a treaty with the Blood Indians in which it was provided that there should be reserved for the use of the said Blood Indians forever that tract of land in Southern Alberta known as the Blood Reserve ?
2.	How many cattle belonging to the Blood Indians and to the Indian Department were on the Blood Reserve during the fiscal year 191718, according to the reports of the Indian Agent?
3.	How many Blood Indian horses were on the reserve at that time, according to the same authority?
4.	Were there in the said year approximately 10,000 head of white ranchers' cattle grazing



on the Blood Reserve with the consent of the Indians and under a formal grazing concession (or a renewal thereof) granted by the Indians themselves some fifteen years before, with the approval of the department and continuously utilized during that period?


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN:: 1.	The treaty, being a public document, speaks for itself.
2.	3,300.
3.	3,462.
4.	No.


*Mr. WHITE:: 1.	What is the total number of cattle and horses that were already on the Blood Reserve when the Government started its greater production campaign on Indian Reserves in the Spring of 1918?
2.	What income from the grazing on their reserve of cattle and horses belonging to white people did the Blood Indians receive for 1917?
3.	Was the Blood Reserve one of the Indian
Reserves classified by the Minister of the Interior as largely vacant and unutilized when he was answering objections to the passage of the amendment to the Indian Act on April 23, 1918, as reported in Hansard, pages 1048 to 1055?	.


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN:: 1.	Cattle 3,300, horses 3,677.
2.	$10,250.
3.	Yes.


*Mr. WHITE:: 1.	How many grazing leases of portions of the Blood Reserve were issued in 1918 by officers of the Department of Indian Affairs?
2.	Was the leasing done by public tender?
3.	Who authorized the granting of leases on the Blood Reserve without asking or obtaining the consent of the Indian owners?
4.	Under what law were the grazing leases of 1918 on this Reserve issued?
5.	Does the Government believe that war urgency is a valid excuse for breaking treaties?


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN:: 1.	38.
2.	No.
3.	Answered by No. 4.
4.	Under authority of Order in Council of February 16,1918, and section 4, Cap 26, 8-9 George V.
5.	Answered by No. 4. *


*Mr. MOLLOY:: 1.	D'id a delegation of prospective lessees come to Ottawa in the early months of 1918 to secure leases on the Blood Reserve from the Government? If so, on what date?
2.	Who were the delegates, and who was the member or representative of the Government with whom they discussed the matter in Ottawa?
3.	Did the Indian Department, or any of its executive officers, without obtaining the consent of the Indians, grant a number of grazing leases on the Blood Reserve in the spring of 1918?
4.	If so, for how long a term were said leases granted?
EMr. MottlOy. ]


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.	[DOT]
3.	Yes, under ^authority of Order in Council of February 16, 1918, and section 4, Cap. 26, 8-9 George V.
4.	One year term renewable yearly up to five years, and subject to termination upon giving six weeks' notice in writing.


*Mr. WHITE:: 1.	Is the Government aware that certain Blood Indians were by the Greater Production leases of 1918 deprived of their means of living on the reserve and have since been obliged to roam about the surrounding country hunting odd jobs by which to support their families?
2.	Is it the intention of the Government tc continue the said grazing leases on the Blood Reserve for 1921?
3.	How many Blood Indians are at present homeless as the result of the said Greater Production leases of 1918 and the continuation thereof in 1919 and 1920?
4.	Is it the intention of the Government to repeal the amendment of the Indian Act under which these dispossessions took place?
5.	Has the Indian Department ottered compensation to any of the dispossessed Indians? If so, when, to whom, and what was the compensation ottered?
6.	If not, why?


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN:: 1.	No.
2.	Yes, if it is in the interest of the Indians to do so.
3.	Answered by No. 1.
4.	It is not the intention of the Government to introduce any amendments to the Indian Act during the present session. (See answer No. 1).
5 and 6. Answered by No. 1.


*Mr. SHAW:: 1.	What revenue has heen received for the Indians "owning the various reserves in Saskatchewan and Alberta from grazing leases since the spring of 1918?
2.	What rentals were previously received for the benefit of the Indians from these lands?
3.	What amount of the total revenue was received on account of the Blood Reserve and credited to the Blood Indians?


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN:: 1.	$321,976.
2.	$10,000.
3. $97,190.


*Mr. SHAW:: 1.	Who was the agent of the Blood Reserve from June, 1908, to June, 1911?
2.	Did the financial inspector of the department report on the cattle conditions of this reserve in July, 1911?
3.	What was the nature of his reports?
4.	Did the agent refuse to sign the statement of the cattle owners?
5.	How many cattle were there on the Blood Reserve according to the statements of the agent in 1909?

6.	How many were found on the reserve in 1911 when the cattle wTere dipped for mange?


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN:: 1.	R. N. Wilson.
2.	Yes.
3.	The inspector reported as follows:
The catitle business which should be the greatest industry here has for some years been declining at a tremendous rate. The agent's annual report shows that in 1909 they had 7,348 head, which in 1910 had fallen to 5,285 head, or a loss of 2,063 head, which, if estimated at $30 each, would represent $61,890, and the calf crop had fallen from 1,667 to 980 in one year. At the count this year which was made during the dipping for mange, and which can be relied upon as nearly correct as can be made under the circumstances, the count was 2,934, and 459 calves branded in addition. This makes a loss to the herd of 2,351 head, which at an average of $30 per head represents $70,530, or a loss in two seasons of over $132,000 in value, besides a reduction in the calf crop from 1,667 in 1909 to 459 in 1911, although it is altogether likely there will be more calves dropped this year. It will be noted that there are only 912 cows left and 98 two-year-old heifers. These are the classes that a hard winter affects the most here, because nothing was done to provide against the cold weather, no hay was put up, the calves were not weaned, and the yearling heifers were not kept away from the bulls. Consequently when the severe weather came the calves sapped the strength of the cows, and the heifers raising two years, heavy with calf and maturing their bodies, were not able to stand it. I cannot understand how everything was allowed to go on so recklessly after the previous year's loss. I asked the stockman how it happened that no preparations were made, and his reply was characteristic, that "the agent would rather provide a diamond ring for the engineer than a toothpick for the stockman."
4.	Yes.
5.	7,348.
6.	3,393.


*Mr. WHITE:: 1 How many leases were granted for grazing* purposes on the northern end of the Blood reserve in 1918 under the Greater Production scheme?
2.	Approximately, what was the total acreage covered by said north end leases?
3.	How many of said leases fixed a limit as to the number of live stock to be grazed and in such cases how many head of stock were allowed to each section of 640 acres?
4.	Were any of the above lessees compelled to fence their leases?
5.	How many of the above class of leases, on the Blood reserve in 1918, were free of both fencing conditions and restrictions as to the number of stock brought on to the reserve under them?
6.	Did these leases give the holders thereof practically unlimited grazing privileges over the unleased portion of the Blood Reserve?


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN:: 1. 21.
2.	43,299.78 acres.
3.	None.
4.	No.
5.	All.
6.	No.


*Mr. MOLLOY:: 1.	Was that southwestern portion of the Blood reserve containing approximately 40,000 acres and habitually used by the Blood Indians for hay-making and as a winter grazing range for their cattle leased by an official of the Indian Department to white men in 1918?
2.	Was access to the said land by the Blood Indian cattle herds shut off by the construction in 191*8 of a 12 or 13 mile fence dividing the said area from the rest of the reserve?
3.	Has the attention of the Government been called to the fact that in 1918 a large portion of the hay land, upon which the Blood Indians were dependent for the feeding of their cattle and the support of their families, was leased by the Indian Department to white men?
4.	What quantity of hay was removed from the Blood Reserve by the Greater Production lessees during the fiscal year 1918-19?
5.	What quantity of hay and straw was removed from the Blood reserve by the "Production" lessees during the fiscal year 1919-20?


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN:: 1.	Grazing leases were granted on the southwest portion of the Blood Reserve in 1918 in order to produce revenue for the Blood Indians, ample areas remaining for the support of the Indians' cattle.
2.	No.
3.	Answered by Nos. 1 and 2.
4 and 5. The Department of Indian Affairs has no information that any quantity of hay and straw was removed from the Blood reserve by the greater production lessees during the fiscal years 1918-19 and 1919-20.


Mr. SHAW:: 1.	In what year did the Blood Indians first engage in the business of raising cattle?
2.	How many cattle were supplied by the Department of Indian Affairs in that year?
3.	Who took charge of the Blood reserve in
1903, and when did he leave the service of the department?	-
4.	How many cattle were on the reserve when he took charge?
5.	How many cattle did he report to be on the reserve in 1905, 1906, and 1907 respectively?
6^ How many cattle were found to be on the reserve when he left the service of the department?


Right Hon. Mr. MEIGHEN:: 1.	1894.
2.	50.
3.	R. N. Wilson was appointed by Order in Council of December 21, 1903, to take charge from February 1, 1904. His resignation was accepted June 15, 1911.

4.	3,519.
5.	1905, 6,000; 1906, 7,500; 1907, 7,621.
6.	3,393.


CAMP BORDEN-AEROPLANES
Mr. SINCLAIR (Guysborough):: 1.	How many aeroplanes are now in commission at Camp Borden?
2.	What was their total initial cost?
3.	How much was expended on repairs during the year 1920?
4.	What was the total expenditure for the staff and the wages of all operators and employees for the year 1920?
5.	How many planes were wrecked at this camp since the armistice?
6.	What has been the total expenditure for all purposes in connection with the maintenance of this camp since the armistice?


Hon. Mr. GUTHRIE:: 1.	59.
2.	Nil.
3.	$29,814.66.
4.	$130,925.15, including pay and allowances of all officers and airmen.
5.	6.
6.	$33,959.50.


CANADIAN CITIZENS' WAR CLAIMS
Mr. DUFF:: 1.	What are the number of claims received by the Government from Canadian citizens, for damages sustained and loss of property by the depredations of German submarines during the period of the war?
2.	What are the amounts of the said claims, lor loss of goods and for loss of shipping?
3.	What is the total amount of saleable assets at present in the hands of the Government which formerly belonged to the German government or German citizens?
4.	Will the Canadian Government, following the example of United States and Great Britain, settle the claims of Canadian citizens and pay tc them the reparation due them? If so, when?


Hon. Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: 
MONTREAL INLAND REVENUE OFFICES
Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	Is it true that the offices of Inland Revenue Department, at Montreal, have been transferred into the Customs building?
2.	If so, for what reason?
3.	Is it the intention of the Government to change the number of employees of the Inland Revenue Department. At Montreal?


Hon. Mr. WIGMORE:: 1.	The Inland Revenue offices at Montreal have been transferred to the Customs building.
2.	Consolidation of Customs and Inland Revenue services.
3.	The question of reducing the Customs and Inland Revenue staff is under consideration.


HIGHWAY GRANTS-SASKATCHEWAN
Mr. WRIGHT:: 1.	For how many highways in the province of Saskatchewan has a project statement been approved by the Minister of Railways for Federal grants under The Canada Highways Act, chapter 54 of the Statutes of Canada, 1919?
2.	What are the highways in respect to which agreements for Federal aid have been reached between the province of Saskatchewan and the Minister of Railways?
3.	Have any sums been paid to the province of Saskatchewan under the Canada Highways Act?
4.	If so, what is the total amount up to March 31, 1921?
5.	To what road or roads do these payments apply?


Hon. Mr. REID (Grenville) :: 
HIGHWAY GRANTS-ALBERTA
Mr. REDMAN:: 1.	For how many highways in the province of Alberta has a project statement been approved by the Minister of Railways for Federal grants under "The Canada Highways Act," chap. 54 of the Statutes of Canada, 1919?
2.	What are the highways in respect to which agreements for Federal aid have been reached between the province of Alberta and the Minister of Railways?
3.	Have any sums been paid to the province of Alberta under the Canada Highways Act?
4.	If so, ivhat is the total amount up to March 31, 1921?
5.	To what road or roads do these payments apply?


Hon. Mr. REID:: 1.	None. The general plan of roads to be improved under the Canada Highways Act has been approved by the minister, but no separate projects have yet been submitted by the province.
2.	None.
3.	No.
4.	None.
5.	None.


GRIFFENHAGEN AND ASSOCIATES
Mr. ETHIER:: 1.	Are Messrs. Griffenhagen and Associates still in the employ of the Government?
2.	If so, what is the nature of their present work?
3.	Does the Government intend to dispense with their services? If so, when?


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Answered by No. 1.
Some members of the Griffenhagen and Associates are still employed under supervision of the sub-committee of Council and in conjunction with the Civil Service Commission in carrying out the reorganization already begun in the Post Office Department, and the Department of Customs and Inland Revenue.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS

Mr. ETHIER:: 1.	How many civil servants were appointed to permanent positions on April 1, 1921, and what are the names of such employees?
2.	What is the classification of each of the said employees and the department in which they are employed?
3.	What is the date of their first appointment to a temporary position?
4.	Upon whose recommendation have said employees been made permanent?
5.	Have other temporary employees been recommended for permanency? If so, when will they be so appointed?


Mr. CURRIE:: [DOT]
1.	How many promotions have been made in each grade in each separate department of the Inside Service in Ottawa for the year ending April 4.
2.	How many of these promotions were made on account of qualifications obtained through Civil Service examinations?
3.	How many promotions were made without qualifying certificates being held by the candidates as a result of having taken the CivSl Service examinations?
4.	How many promotions were made in each department without reference to Civil Service examination and without classification?


Mr. MYERS:: 1.	How many officials are now employed by the Canadian National Railway system in the traffic and operating departments?
2.	How many officials were employed by the Canadian Northern Railway in the traffic and operating departments prior to the Government taking over the system?
3.	How many officials were employed by the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway in the traffic and operating departments prior to the Government taking over the system?
4.	How many officials were employed by the Canadian Government railways, namely, the Intercolonial and Transcontinental, In the traffic and operating departments prior to the amalgamation of the companies into the Canadian national system?
5.	What was the total cost in connection with wrecks on the Canadian national railway on the line between Saskatoon and Calgary for the year 1920?
6.	Was the cost of wrecks charged up to operating expenses or to capital account?
7.	What was the total detention expenses on the Canadian railway between Saskatoon and Calgary for the year 1920?
8.	Why is it that certain equipment of the Canadian national railway is charged to operation expenses instead of capital account?
9.	What is the total amount charged to capital account for the year 1920 in connection with Canadian national railways?
UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS Mr. SMITH:
For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, petitions and other documents exchanged between the Dominion Government and the Ontario Provincial Government or any ministers of either administration, relative to the removal of the British embargo on Canadian cattle.


Mr. SINCLAIR (Guysborough) :: For a copy of all telegrams, correspondence, petitions or other documents exchanged between the Government of Prinoe Edward Island and the Federal Government relative to the taking over and operating of the Dalton Sani-

torium by the Federal Government and the handing back of the same to the Government of Prince Edward Island.



SULLY, QUEBEC, PROPOSED STATION

[Stage Direction]
On the notice of Motion:
Mr. GAUVREAU:: For a copy of all letters, correspondence, petitions, financial statements and all other documents, exchanged between the settlers of Sully and along the National Transcontinental in the county of Temiscouata, and the Superintendent of the Government railways in connection with the erection of a station at Sully, Quebec.


Arthur Meighen: It occurs to me that as the mover of this motion is here, he would probably consent to the motion being transferred to the committee which was ordered by the House on Friday.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: Yes.
Motion dropped.



MURRAY BAY-TADOUSSAC-PROPOSED STEAMSHIP SERVICE

Mr. P. F. CASGRAIN (Charlevoix-Mont-morency) moved:: which were very doubtful. I said that the Government surely ought to be able to spare a few hundred thousand dollars to provide a boat service for the people in that part of the country. I blamed the Government at that time for not taking proper steps to provide a service, and I again, this year, make the same complaint, and would urge upon the Government that a subsidy be granted as was done a few years ago, or that a regular boat service be provided by the Government for the people in that part of the country which I represent. I think the merchant marine in this way would be performing better service than by doing what it is now, sailing the seven seas. A boat of 100 tons could perform this service and call at the different ports, and I am sure that if the merchant marine performed service of this kind instead of what it is now doing the deficit on the merchant marine would not be so big as it was last year.


Mr. SAVARD (Chicoutimi-Saguenay) :: (Translation.) The subject of my hon. friend's resolution (Mr. Casgrain) would perhaps concern my constituency more than his own. I therefore heartily endorse this resolution. The facts of the case have been so ably put forward by the hon. member that I have very little to add to what he has already said. However, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will make a few remarks on the subject. The population of the whole county of Saguenay and of the Northern Coast, which includes a great number of parishes and some very important industries, has been since two or three years, absolutely isolated from the rest of this country, on account of the niggardliness of this Government.
Some years ago the firm of Price, one of the largest business concerns in the province of Quebec, had an important mill at St. Catherine's. As it was necessary to communicate with the North Shore, the firm maintained a ferry service between St. Catherine and Tadoussac, thus benefiting the North Shore's population from Tadoussac to Labrador by giving it the means of communication. This company maintained its ferry service during many years, but haying finally shut down its plant at St. Catherine, had no further interest in continuing the ferry. It was then that the Saguenay people asked the Government, at that time under the leadership of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, for the necessary assistance to maintain the ferry between St. Catherine and Tadoussac. The Government hav-

ing understood the importance of the request and the necessity for the people of the Northern Shore to communicate with the rest of the country, immediately granted about three thousand dollars. With the aid of this subsidy those interested hired a fine boat and organized a daily service between St. Catherine and Tadoussac, which continued without interruption during the winter. I did not expect to speak upon this question so I have not the exact dates at hand, but it was some years ago before I had the honour to sit in this House, that the right hon. Minister of Commerce, as my hon. friend the member from Charlevoix has just stated, cut off this subsidy, claiming that as a ferry-boat this service should be subsidized by the Provincial Government of Quebec. In consequence that part of the country is isolated. I do not know whether the member then representing these people made any effort to prevent this crying injustice, perhaps one of the greatest committed by the Government. I do not mention these facts simply because it is a part of the population of my county that suffers from this state of affairs; I cannot believe that the right hon. Minister of Commerce has understood the importance of keeping the population of the North Shore in touch with the rest of the country, and the injustice these people are suffering through his department. I refuse to believe that, to save a few hundreds or thousands of dollars, this service has been cut off, depriving of communication an intelligent population that has given soldiers to the country, many of whom sleep their last sleep in Flanders. Even while admitting that the Government was not absolutely obliged to maintain this steamboat service, due consideration should have been taken of the great inconvenience caused by its suppression, especially at a time when millions of d'ollars are being thrown to the four winds and when twenties and even hundreds of millions are being talked about for ships that we claim are absolutely useless. To deprive this population of a service which is absolutely necessary in order to save a few thousand dollars, as a serious mistake, and I to not believe that the right hon. Minister of Commerce has realized the injustice committed by his department, for if he had, he would not have cut off-this subsidy. I do not know whether the member who represented this county before me endeavoured to prevent this injustice being committed, but I am inclined to think not; for I imagine that the

then member had influence enough with the Government to prevent it. I will further say that there was laid upon the table on September 19th, or October 19th, 1918, a letter from Mr. Girard, former member for Chicoutimi, addressed to the Hon. Postmaster General, in which he said, referring to the assistance asked for by the Priest of Tadoussac and also myself, to permit a gasoline launch service to carry the mail between St. Catherine and Tadoussac, that it was useless. I can, then, only conclude, since he had the courage, not to call it the cowardice, to affirm that this little ferry service was useless, that he did not do his duty towards his electors when the right hon. Minister of Commerce cut off this subsidy in 1916.
I have had occasion to talk with the right hon. Minister of Commerce on this subject, and he told me, as I have just said, that it was a ferry service, and should be looked after by the province of Quebec. He added, "the province of Quebec is so flourishing, its coffers are so full of money, that it would be easy for it to give some thousands of dollars to this population to permit it to communicate with the rest of the country." I did not contest his statement concerning the finances of the province of Quebec, because if ever there was a true statement, it is that one.
I had the occasion, at the time, to meet Sir Lomer Gouin, the Prime Minister of the province of Quebec, whom I apprized of the opinion of the right hon Minister of Trade and Commerce. The latter had told me: "consult Sir Lomer Gouin on this matter and let me know what he thinks about it." This I did, in the course of a pretty long conservation I had with him; Sir Lomer Gouin stated that the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce was certainly mistaken, and that he would endeavour to show him so when he next came to Ottawa.
Sir Lomer Gouin came up to Ottawa a few days later, but he did not meet the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce, as the latter had left the Capital to go to Europe. The hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean), the then acting minister, would not intervene, although he was fully convinced of the justice of the case, nor would he alter the decision which the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce had taken. The Question remained as it stood. These people were deprived of all means of communication during the long winter months. Deprived of every means of communication, I stated, but let there be no mistake : They had a mail service every eighth day, but at times they would be without it for a fortnight.
A population as that which inhabits that immense territory extending from Tadoussac to Labrador, a territory composed of from fifteen to twenty parishes, numbering from twelve to fifteen thousand inhabitants and in which important industries are established, is deprived of a postal service during whole weeks. To my mind, any intelligent people would but need a knowledge of such conditions to be unanimous in calling it an indignity, an infamy perpetrated on that population. I must say that I did all I could to obtain from the Government some relief for these citizens, and that we have succeeded to some extent, not through the Rt. Hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce, but through the Postmaster General. The hon. member for Charlevoix is now proposing a resolution which I fully approve, and I would be very glad if it were readily accepted by the Government.


Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX (Maison-neuve-Gaspe):: As a summer resident
of the district under consideration, I desire to support the motion made by the hon. member for Charlevoix (Mr. Casgrain). There is a very large population at the mouth of the river Saguenay in the county of Charlevoix, and as my hon. friend the member for Chicoutimi-Saguenay (Mr. Savard) has said, there is also a large population on the other side of the river from Tadoussac to Belle Isle. There are at least twenty or twenty-five large fishing posts besides the Hudson's Bay posts in that district, and trade has been improving of late years, especially in view of the establishment of a large pulp industry. I might mention the Clarke establishment at Seven Islands, for instance, and several others. The district is certainly going to prosper, and the mouth of the river Saguenay ought not to be considered as a minor outlet. Considering its expanse, I should be inclined to compare it to an arm of the sea; and I might mention to the right hon. gentleman (Sir George Foster), that it is navigable in all seasons. For many years the department over which I presided, the Post Office Department and the Department of Trade and Commerce, I think, subsidized the steamer service between Fraserville and Baie Ste. Catherine; and, much to the surprise of the navigators in the Quebec district, a tug-boat could even in winter perform the service between Fraserville, on the south shore, and Baie Ste. Catherine on the north shore. That

little service gave excellent satisfaction for many years. I do not know whether it is still maintained; but I claim, at all events, that between the extremity of the county of Charlevoix and the beginning of the north shore settlements, there should be maintained a ferry service subsidized by the Government. The right hon. gentleman says that it ought to be subsidized by the province of Quebec. Technically he may be right; but I will remind him that in those far-away districts, where the habitations are scanty, and the posts are widely scattered, the Federal Government is usually somewhat generous towards the population. As we know, the Federal Government is not obliged to subsidize roads and highways. It is true that some years ago we passed a statute granting to the various provinces some subsidies which have to be spent according to certain fixed rules. Since Confederation, however, in the county of Gaspe, which I have the honour to represent, the Marine Department has maintained, on the northern portion of the peninsula, what is, known as the Maritime Road. That road in the county of Gaspe covers a considerable distance from Ste. Anne des Monts to Fame Point. Until very recently that highway has been maintained by the Federal Government because it was necessary to have it in good order for the repairs of the various lighthouses. I do not know whether the Marine Department has ceased subsidizing that road. At all events I know that since Confederation it has been maintained by the Dominion Government because around all these light houses and in all these little coves there are fishing posts. I claim, Mr. Speaker, that the case is analogous to that which has been presented to the House this afternoon by my hon. friend from Charlevoix. The county of Charlevoix is a large county, and the county of Chicoutimi still larger. Indeed it runs from Tadoussac, the oldest settlement in Canada, up to Belle Isle and away beyond up to Labrador; it is without railway communication and, as I said a moment ago the lumber industry -not to speak of the fur industry, or the fishing industry-is at the present moment undergoing such a development that the Government would be justified in maintaining that service on that arm of the sea, the Baie Ste. Catherine, the outlet of the Saguenay River. It is unfair that those far-away settlements should be deprived of their mail service during so many days of the months. It seems to me that when we pay such a large subsidy for the main-
tenance of a mail service in the Yukon District, which is comparitively new, we should not begrudge a small amount which would maintain this particular service in the oldest section of Canada all the year round.


Right Hon.   S@: I have to thank my hon. friend from Charlevoix-Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) for his courtesy in deferring the discussion of this question from last Monday until to-day to suit my personal convenience. I have listened to his remarks, which have been ably supported by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Savard) who sits behind him, and as is usual in all cases which concern Quebec, by my hon. friend from Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux); but I am afraid that the premises upon which they found their arguments are scarcely correct and maintainable in comparison with services which we carry on in other parts of the Dominion. No amount of good-will or sympathy can convert the mouth of the Saguenay River into an arm of the sea if you take into consideration where the Saguenay River enters the St. Lawrence, and the long expanse of the latter river, before it goes out to the sea. So that the good-will of my hon. friend from Maisonneuve rather played havoc with logic and with geographical definitions when he tried to argue that the Saguenay was equivalent at least to an arm of the sea.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Our people down below Quebec, past Fraserville, when they speak of the River St. Lawrence, always say, " C'est la mer."


Sir GEORGE FOSTER:: But
4 p.m. the facts of the case are that the service from the county of Charlevoix to the county on the other side -that is between Ste. Catherine and Tadoussac-is really a service across the river Saguenay, and that river is an internal river within the province of Quebec. There is not an instance that I know of in all the Dominion where public money is voted from the federal treasury for the maintenance of any service between two banks of a river that flows within that province. My colleague (Mr. Calder) who was listening to the discussion that was taking place, brought to my attention this fact-that the province of Saskatchewan itself pays out over $150,000 a year for maintaining ferry services from one bank of a river to another bank, both banks being within its

own territory; and in all the provinces such ferries are kept up and maintained by the province itself. It is difficult to establish any difference, in point of administration, between the river Saguenay itself and any other river in a province where the convenience of the people makes it necessary to have a ferry service between the two banks of a river, or between towns and villages situated on either bank of that river. That is the view which has commended itself to the Department of Trade and Commerce and to the Government as well, and one can see no good reason for spending the money of the Dominion on a ferry service on that river, and declining to do it on other rivers in other provinces of Canada. It is a service which belongs, practically and primarily, to the province itself, and I am happy to know-as I believe my hon. friends opposite also are,-that the province of Quebec is in such a good financial condition at the present time as to enable it to take care of all these ferry services without being in the least incommoded thereby. I am glad also to know that I have the approbation of my hon. friend from Brome (Mr. McMaster) when I make that statement.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: Silent approbation.


George Green Foster: Silent at times but still my hon. friend's countenance speaks on such occasions. With reference to the postal service, that comes within entirely a different category. The postal service must be carried on by the Federal Government no matter whether it crosses provincial rivers or over provincial highways -that is the duty of the federal Government alone. I noticed what my hon. friend from Charlevoix-Montmorency said with reference to the contract made in this case by the Post Office Department with the man who carries the mail. I will call the attention of the Postmaster General to my hon. friend's statements, and if the contract is not lived up to I think the Postmaster General will give his personal attention to the matter. When the old ferry service was done away with by the federal Government, it then fell to the duty of the Postmaster General to get his mail carried across at the point in question, and he had to enter into another contract with whomsoever he could to have that service performed, and in part that particular ferry service has been aided to that extent. When the Dominion Government subsidized the service the mails were carried by virtue of that
subsidy and no extra drain was made upon the Post Office Department, but when the subsidy was withdrawn, of course it became the duty of the Postmaster General to make other arrangements.
My hon. friend from Charlevoix-Montmorency advanced the argument that as navigable rivers fall under the jurisdiction of the Dominion Government, therefore it followed that the Dominion Government should subsidize services upon such rivers. I do not think he will find that in the constitution, and if he revises his argument I think he will come to a different conclusion, because I know that once he gets his premises right he is pretty sound and logical in building up his argument. Because the Dominion Government has jurisdiction over navigable rivers as to obstructions to navigation and other cognate matters that therefore it is bound to undertake all the provincial services which may be required on those rivers is, in my opinion, an argument that cannot be maintained.
With reference to the north shore generally, the Dominion Government has carefully and uniformly done the best it could towards serving the segregated settlements along that shore clear down to the straits of Belle Isle, and this year we are putting on at large expense what I hope will be the best service that we have yet attempted to furnish there. That will provide for the necessities of all the population from Quebec down to the furthest settlements, along that coast. We consider it the duty of the Dominion Government to do that, not because the trade warrants the expense, for up to the present time the trade has been small and the expense has been steadily growing, but because they are widely separated settlements and it is the part of the Dominion Government to be generous in providing services along such a coast line. I do not think that my hon. friend's constituents living along that coast will have any cause for complaint when the service which we are providing for the present year is inaugurated. It is in responsible hands and the vessels will be of a good class, and I hope there will be a decided improvement in that service.
I am afraid, therefore, that I cannot speak very hopefully to my hon. friend as to putting on a second service for a certain portion of that coast, or a ferry service on that portion of the river Saguenay on the opposite sides of which the two towns referred to are situated. It must be the duty of the local government to look after

a proper ferry service under conditions such as obtain there.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: Before the hon. member (Mr. Casgrain) rises, it is my duty to advise the House that he will exercise his right to close the debate, and therefore if any other hon. member desires to speak he should do so now.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Mr. Speaker, I have listened with considerable interest to the remarks of the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster), but without being convinced. I am personally familiar with one case, as the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Lemieux) has pointed out. These are the facts. The people of these two counties bordering on the river Saguenay are not at all in the position of people living on each side of a river, for this is not a river service, it is a sea service. The boats crossing from Murray Bay to Tadoussac or in returning have to go right out to sea. The circumstances here are of a special character and necessitate special treatment. This is not simply a service across a river as instanced by the hon. minister. As to the granting of the service I am asking for establishing a bad precedent, I would direct the attention of my right hon. friend to the fact that on the very same river St. Lawrence, right in the open sea, the Government has for fifteen years subsidized the steamer Champlain to make connection between the Intercolonial at Riviere Ouelle over to Murray Bay. We are only asking for the continuance of this service down below from Murray Bay as fay as Tadoussac in order to afford a link with the other portions of the county as far as Belle Isle and to be a feeder to the Quebec and Saguenay railway which is now being operated by the Government. As the hon. member for Gaspe has pointed out, these people are in a very peculiar situation. The settlements along the north shore were established in the early days of Canada, and the people living there have had to bear the burden of taxation that went towards improved railway and other facilities for the rest of the Dominion, and now that they ask this House to vote a few thousand dollars to help them keep their scattered communities in communication with one another the answer is that to grant such a request would be creating a bad precedent. As a matter of fact, we have already created similar precedents by contributing to improvements in other provinces, and I think this part of the country which I represent ought to be better [Sir George Foster.!
treated than the hon. minister is prepared to treat it now.
Motion negatived.



SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE


Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Shelburne and Queen's) moved:: That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the rules of the House be so amended as to provide (a) that the hour of meeting on Wednesday be 3 o'clock instead of 2 o'clock, as at present, and (b) that the House adjourn at eleven p.m. unless exceptional circumstances recognized by the House generally, require a later sitting.
He said:
Mr. Speaker, the object I have in view in putting this resolution on the Order Paper, I need hardly say, is, not to divide the House, but to afford an opportunity, which I think is desirable, for the members on both sides to express their views on one or two points which it seems to me have an important bearing both on the comfort of members and on the efficiency of our work.
The resolution touches two things: First, the rule respecting Wednesday sittings, and, second, the hour of adjournment at night. In regard to the Wednesday recess, I think I may be accused of being the father of that particular baby, because I believe it was at my own suggestion that the Wednesday recess was at first adopted. I am not responsible, however, for the attachment thereto which requires the House to meet at two o'clock. I think the idea of an evening when the members shall be free to avail themselves of any opportunities that may offer for social engagements, is a very desirable thing. It makes for the efficiency of the House. There are members, of course, who take their duties somewhat lightly, and those may not attach much importance to an evening recess because they will take that recess whenever they want it irrespective of rules. But there are other members who give close and earnest attention to public business, and many of them, although they do not take a very active part in the debates, nevertheless feel it their duty to be present and listen with close attention in order that they may be fully informed of the public business of the country. To men of that class it is a burden to be here night after night without any recess at all. Men have a natural desire to be entertained, or to entertain, and they need opportunities for social engagements in one form or an-

other. I believe it is not unreasonable that there should be one such evening during the week, and if we so provide by rule,
I do not think that the efficiency of the House will be diminished. On the contrary, hon. members would adapt themselves to the rule and say: Well, since we can make engagements for Wednesday evening we shall feel it our duty to be present on other evenings. I think, therefore, that the Wednesday evening recess is a very desirable thing; I regret that the Government, in the pressure of business, as they think, have already cancelled it for the present session; I would hope that even yet they might see the wisdom of changing that. However, we are dealing now with the general principle.
With regard to the meeting at two o'clock on Wednesday, I never approved of that;
I think it is a mistake. With the engagements that members have in various ways during the forenoon-attending committees or possibly fulfilling private engagements -it is not easy for them to get to the House at two o'clock. I am sure that every hon. gentleman who has endeavoured to comply with that rule has found difficulty in doing so. I remember that not long ago one of the Cabinet ministers came in at three o'clock on Wednesday and expressed surprise that the House had been sitting for an hour. More than once I have known that to occur in the case of private members. I think it is well that we should have a regular and established hour of meeting for each day in the week, so that hon. members will not find it necessary to charge their memories as to what is the hour of meeting. Therefore, while I support the idea of the Wednesday evening recess, I strongly advise the meeting at three instead of at two.
As to the question of the hour of adjournment in the evening, it is found that little or no business of importance is ever done after eleven o'clock at night. Of course, under exceptional circumstances the House might sit until a later hour, and for that I am providing in my resolution. But as a rule, after the House has been sitting from three o'clock in the afternoon, and having regard to various engagements of hon. members and their committee meetings in the mornings, I think that until eleven o'clock is quite late enough to sit. If we adopt automatically the eleven o'clock rule, subject to exceptions in urgent cases, when the House generally would agree, members will adapt themselves to that rule
and will arrange their business accordingly. I do not believe that we should lose any time as a result. As it is, the House quite frequently sits until a very late hour; one or two cases have occurred recently when adjournment did not take place until well on into the morning. On one occasion during this session we sat until about five o'clock in the morning. I think that is a foolish thing to do. In my long parliamentary experience I have had to do with a good many late night sittings. I have participated in some, possibly I have been responsible for some; but I have never looked back on one of those occasions without thinking how foolish it was that we did not close up our business at eleven o'clock and go home. Little or nothing is done when you have members sitting here after eleven o'clock at night; those who give close and careful attention to the business of the House are tired and weary and not in good condition to do business when the House meets the next day. I do not want to dwell on the question; I think these reasons are strong and will commend themselves to hon. gentlemen on both sides. My chief purpose in introducing the resolution is to afford an opportunity for a free and open expression of opinion on the part of hon. members, and I shall be glad if those who feel interested will tell the House frankly how they view the matter.	-


Mr. H. H. STEVENS (Vancouver Centre) :: Mr. Speaker, I am very glad that the hon. member for Shelburne and Queen's (Mr. Fielding) has brought up this subject -not that I agree with him, but in order that I may have this opportunity of expressing the view of one who comes from a great distance and is forced to remain in Ottawa practically during the whole session. It is all very well for hon. gentlemen who live within a few hours' journey from the Capital and who can give fair attention to their private affairs while the session is in progress to be anxious to restrict the hours of sitting of the House. But it is exceedingly unfair to those of us who come from a distance, who have to remain here during the whole session and who have no opportunity of attending to private business, that there should be two days of the week during which very little business is done, namely, Monday and Friday-the result of an ancient tacit arrangement between both sides of the House. It is generally understood that no contentious business will be carried on during those two days. When the House meets on Friday we note

that there has taken place a general exodus of hon. gentlemen who live eastward in Quebec and in eastern Ontario, and who leave Ottawa on the 3.30 or 4 o'clock train on Friday afternoon and remain away until Monday or Tuesday. On Friday night about nine o'clock nearly all the Ontario members, or a very large number of them, living west of Ottawa, in the vicinity of Toronto and in western Ontario, leave the city, and return, as a rule, on Tuesday morning. I submit that this is exceedingly unfair to those of us who are not privileged to communicate with our business associates at home or with our families. Now, I have no apology to nlake for speaking as I do, because during the thirteen sessions-I think it is-that I have been in the House I have only on one occasion missed more than seven days in a session; in many sessions it has been three or four days. I speak, therefore, with some conviction and with a considerable degree of feeling. I do not wish to make personal references, but I know how it is with myself. Business has suffered very seriously, and this condition could be remedied somewhat if hon. gentlemen attended the sittings of the House on Mondays and Fridays and evidenced on those days the same degree of interest in the business that they do on the other days of the week. If, moreover, we were to cut the speeches on ordinary occasions-excepting, perhaps, those of the mover and the seconder of a motion-down to about twenty minutes or half-an-hour, I think that would be a move in the right direction. But I submit to my hon. friend who moves this motion that nearly all the late sittings are occasioned by the participation in debate by hon. gentlemen who take very little interest in the business and who come in at the last moment when an important vote is about to be taken. I have seen it scores of times, and my hon. friend has seen it oftener than I have. An important subject is under consideration-we will say, the Budget, the speech from the Throne, or some other important matter-and it is generally understood, after a debate of perhaps two or three weeks, that a vote will be taken, say, on Tuesday. Well, under ordinary circumstances it is expected that the vote will be taken during the evening, but, one after another hon. gentleman whom, perhaps, we seldom see in the House and whom we seldom hear, get up and the debate drags on until two, three or four o'clock in the morning. That is invariably the case, so the condition which prevails is not the fault of those who regularly attend the sittings of 
the House; it is not the fault of those of us, I contend, who come from the remoter sections of the country. It is largely the fault of such hon. gentlemen as I have described.
Now, I would not favour restricting the hours as suggested by the hon. gentleman, because it would simply mean the prolonging of the session and the imposing of greater hardships upon those who attend regularly the sittings of the House. In my estimation, the adoption of this proposed rule would do no good. But I would like to see the rules amended, as I moved in the House about two sessions ago, so as to restrict the length of speeches in debate. That, I think, would tend greatly to facilitate the business of the House. I further would like to see this unwritten law of no serious business being taken up on Monday and Friday entirely done away with, so that during the five days of the week that the House is sitting we may accomplish as much business as possible.


Mr. MICHAEL CLARK (Red Deer) :: Mr. Speaker, I find myself in complete agreement with fifty per cent of the resolution of my hon. friend (Mr. Fielding). Speaking from personal experience, I have found the two o'clock to six o'clock sitting long and irksome and such as to make it difficult to follow closely all the business that goes on during those four hours. With regard to the recess in the evening on Wednesdays, I think we are doing very well. We have a recess in the evening for the first portion of the session when the darkness comes early and it is the pleasure of members to meet in social gatherings on that particular evening of the week.
I am not in agreement with my hon. friend as to his further proposition. There is something in what has fallen from the lips of the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens)-that we ought not to have these days in the week when we do not do any serious business. All the working days of the week ought to be treated very much alike. I cannot, however, quite agree with the hon. member for Shelburne and Queen's (Mr. Fielding) that no serious business is done in this House after eleven o'clock at night. Why, Sir, if I may say so, he himself is the very embodiment of the contradiction of what he has laid down in that respect. I have the pleasantest recollection of a speech which he delivered in the old Museum while we assembled there. I am sure it was after eleven o'clock at night when he renewed his reciprocity

discussion with the former Minister of Finance, and to the delight of everybody, in perfect temper and in round and eloquent periods, long after eleven o'clock at night, he assailed his opponent with horse, foot and artillery. Indeed, I think my hon. friend's brain considering the years it has functioned, is a perfect miracle of activity after eleven o'clock in the evening. I say that with all sincerity and, therefore, I contend that he himself is a contradiction of what he has stated. He has made so many good speeches in his time that he has forgotten the time of night at which he has delivered them, but I am sure I have not. I have heard many of his speeches delivered after eleven o'clock at night, all of them while he was an older man than I am at the present moment.
The resolution has some misgivings about itself, so to speak. It says that we might still find exceptional circumstances in which we should sit after eleven o'clock at night. It is only in exceptional circumstances that we do so now, and, indeed, at the beginning of this session, the disposition is all the other way. On the very first night of the debate on the Address, the House was adjourned at ten minutes to ten by a leading front-bench man on this side of the House. That is a reprehensible practice. We should as in so many things in life, begin as we mean to carry on with the sittings of Parliament; we should be a businesslike body from the beginning of the session to the end. I am in thorough agreement with the hon. member for Vancouver Centre in that respect. And his argument might be carried further in regard to the meetings at the beginning of the session. We ought to do business then just as we do it later; and I think there are special circumstances when the Government of the day would be justified, from the very beginning of the session, in refusing adjournment at 9.50 o'clock in the evening, because at 9.50 o'clock we have not sat two hours in the evening. Improvement could be made along the lines mentioned by my hon. friend and along this line. The resolution, as I have said, would allow us to sit still later in exceptional circumstances; and I think that debates that have been carried on in a traditional way so long as almost to become constitutional might very well still be carried on in that way, and that the common-sense of the House of Commons could use its time on the whole wisely with the rules as they are in regard to our general meeting. I am getting old enough to have to restrain some of those' revolutionary tendencies that show themselves unaccountably in men older than myself, and I would feel if we made the alteration on Wednesdays and and the Government would consider before another session came up, of giving fifty per cent of this resolution their earnest attention, we might leave the conduct of our general debate on the other days of the week to the common-sense of this assembly, which has never erred very far and which, I feel, will be a growing quantity in this great young country as the years go by.


John Allister Currie: Mr. Speaker, I am one member of the House who find I cannot quite agree with the hon. gentleman who introduced the resolution. Some years ago the rules of the House were under review, and a number of corrections were made in them. At that time it was supposed that we had reached finality in the matter of change. Two questions are brought under review by this resolution. The first is the matter of the elimination of Wednesday evening sittings. Mondays and Wednesdays are private members' days. Many members do not realize that, in the Old Country, owing to the large amount of work they have, they are compelled to shorten up the time, so that private members who wish to bring resolutions or private Bills to the attention of the House, have to go into the lobby and ballot, and possibly not more than 15 per cent of the members who wish to bring private matters before the House, have an opportunity of doing so. Fortunately, that is mot so in this House; the utmost latitude is given to members to bring in matters of a private nature and to discuss them, and generally during the first two months of the session we spend Mondays and Wednesdays in discussing matters brought forward by private members.
It would be a great mistake, to my mind, to eliminate the night session, especially until some rule is adopted with reference to Supply. Those of us who have been in this House for a long time know very well that the greatest enemy, the wolf of time, in this House, is the discussion over Estimates. A small item, amounting possibly to not more than a couple of hundred dollars in the aggregate, will be discussed in committee of Supply for a whole day and a whole night and the same thing argued over and over again. Nothing very edifying is achieved by that operation and no particular information gained. When our rules were changed some years ago, we inserted a clause giving cloture with notice,

and cloture with notice meant simply, in the matter of the Estimates, that a minister, coming into this House in the afternoon or at night with his Estimates, was at liberty to stand up and call a series of items, ten, fifteen or twenty as the case might be, for the next day, and the next day the items would go through automatically, the time limit for speeches being twenty minutes. We have never taken advantage of that rule. Had we done so, the time occupied by the House in putting Estimates through would be cut down by seventy-five per cent, and that is where the great loss of time occurs.
As regards work on Mondays and Fridays and the understood rule that no matters of a controversial nature should be brought up on those days, apparently the blame for everything is cast upon those members who are so fortunate, as regards Parliament, as to be able to go home at the end of the week. I am not so selfish as to turn around and say that most of the time of the House is occupied by members from the remote provinces; but if you compare the amount of talking done by members from Ontario and that done by members from remote provinces, you will find that fully seventy-five per cent of the talk is done by members from remote provinces. If you adopt this resolution, you are going to prevent every man, who has a business of his own and knows anything at all about the business of the country, from coming into this House. This country at the present moment is faced with a grave crisis in its business affairs, and surely hon. members do not wish to have this House full of professional politicians. If you adopt any such rule as is proposed you are going to have that. If you want to shorten the sessions, apply closure to the Estimates, and you will cut the length of the session by fully one-half, but if you are going to prevent business men in the eastern part of this country from going home and looking after their affairs over the week-end, you are simply going to eliminate all the business men from Ontario and Quebec from this House. I do not think it is in the interests of this country that anything of that kind should take place. If you are going to deprive private members of their privileges on Mondays and Wednesday, why, of course, you can do so, but I warn you that in doing so you are doing grave injury to the country. I claim that with the rules as at present laid down, if they were as religiously enforced as they should be, the 
length of the session could be cut fully one-half.
What good purpose is served by lengthy debates on Estimates? I have sat in this House for many years, and again and again I have seen an item come up and discussed, and then when the discussion was over and the minister had given his explanation, some member would wander into the House from the lobby and the whole discussion would be gone over again. When that member had got all the information he desired another member would come in and want the whole thing argued over again. There is nothing to be gained by that mode of procedure. We must get down to business, and some method must be adopted of expediting the work, either by a committee outside of the House going over the Estimates, or by limiting the discussion in this House on the various items of Supply, as our rules provide. But the trouble is that no ministry has been strong enough or fearless enough to carry out the rules of the House as they are laid down. If that were done, there would not be one-half the trouble. We had endless debates in this House, running over three and four days, until the closure rule was adopted. I remember the first time closure was applied. Notice of the business to be taken up on the following day was given, and when the business came up for discussion speeches were limited to twenty minutes. Half of my hon. friends opposite could not occupy their twenty minutes and the vote went through long before it was anticipated it would. Had closure not been applied on that occasion, the debate would have gone on for two or three weeks. If you desire to do justice to men who are not professional politicians,-and I think the country at large needs a few of these men,-you must be as reasonable as possible to the business men in the House and give them an opportunity once in a while to give a little attention to their own affairs. I know it is a great hardship on the western member who lives at such a distance from Ottawa that he cannot go home over the week-end, but I think the eastern members and those nearby Ottawa can help matters out very much, and they have been trying to do so, by inviting the members from a distance to go out socially and see some of the country in the East. There is a great deal to be seen in the East as well as in the West. The East is an important part of this country, just as much as the West. We should not have

any class ideas whatsoever. It is very much in the interests of the whole country that Parliament should be of a cosmopolitan character, that all interests should be represented here, not as classes but as a whole. We should have a certain percentage of the professional classes, a certain percentage of the trading class, of the manufacturing class, and of the agricultural class. Every class should be represented here, every race, religion, and colour, and then Parliament would get a proper view of the mind of the people of this country as a whole.
I have had occasion to sit at the head of committees of this House, and I have found that the business men in the committees were very active, and very willing to carry on the work of the committee just as they would their own private affairs. There is a Joint Committee on Printing, of which I have had the honour to be Chairman for many years. The membership includes a number of Senators, and amongst them some of the ablest men in the whole of Canada. By organizing, and through earnest efforts to achieve some saving in that branch of the Government business, we have succeeded, in three years, in making a saving of close to a million dollars in very small expenditures. I am satisfied that if the gentlemen composing other committees were of that character and made up their minds what they were going to do, the business would be done much more expeditiously. For instance, if we had a committee on Supply composed of members of the House with good executive ability, I am satisfied that the discussion on Estimates in this House would be very much shortened. What is the situation now? From now on, three-fourths of the session will be given over to Supply, and when the end of the session approaches about twenty per cent of the Supply may have passed, and then the rest all goes through with a rush in one day, or two. Hundreds of millions of dollars will then be voted without any one having a word to say.
If a number of items were called by a minister for discussion on the following day, and we had to get those items off the slate, and the discussion were limited, I am sure we could discuss properly every item in the Estimates and shorten the session very considerably. Sometimes a minister has items he does not want discussed. I know, when I was in Opposition we had to watch for those; we knew the minister would delay bringing them up until the very last day, when they had to go through, and not a
single word could be said about them at all. Our rules as a whole are far better than the rules of the British House of Commons. In the British House they have a form of .closure which is called the Kangaroo or the Scissors, with no notice. The minister can call any item, and jam it through, and there is no discussion whatever. Our form is closure, with notice. No item can be put through unless notice has first been given and opportunity for proper discussion afforded; speeches are limited to twenty minutes, and the items must automatically be voted or struck out. I have sat in the House for a great many years, and wasted a great many hours in Supply listening to talk, and I have never yet seen more than three or four items in the Estimates struck out or reduced, and when that did happen it was generally at the instance of a minister. The waste of time is largely due to the discussion of small matters in Supply, and I think hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House should seriously consider whether we cannot reach a unanimous decision to shorten the session by using the method of closure provided in the rules of this House. Let the items be closured through with notice. The items would be called that were to be taken up the next day, then after a discussion the items would automatically go through. I am satisfied that this method would achieve the object sought by the hon. member who has introduced this resolution. I would be the last man in the House to limit the rights of private members on matters that affect them, but I do not think it is necessary to go to bed every night at eleven o'clock. I think the business of the House should be carried through until finished. We are not on the eight-hour day here, but even if we were and we got paid for overtime, there would still be no limit to the debates. If we got double time after eleven o'clock, I suppose we would keep the discussion going until six in the morning. Therefore, I think we had better leave the rules as they are, and I would strongly urge the Government to enforce closure with notice on the Estimates. No harm can come from doing that, it would shorten the session by a month or two, and I think every hon. member would have ample time to discuss any item he wished in the time provided.


Rodolphe Lemieux: As an old member of the House I wish to give my support to the motion moved by my hon. friend from Shelburne and Queen's. It is true that we are not under



the eight-hour system, as my hon. triend from North Simcoe (Mr. Currie), has just said. But we are here to perform our duties as diligently and intelligently as possible, and I submit that under the present system it is impossible for us so to do. I appeal to my friends on both sides of the House, whether we should not be sorry indeed if, on occasion, towards the close of the session, our electors were in the gallery witnessing the spectacle presented in this House, a few seats being occupied by ministers and a few others by members of the Opposition, and, for the rest, practically an empty chamber. Why is that? It is because, from ten o'clock in the morning until late in the evening, members have been going from committee room to committee room, and, from the opening of the session at three o'clock in the afternoon, have been discussing in the House different questions varying in their scope and in their importance. I say that it is not in the interests of the country that absurd rules of that kind should govern this Chamber.
Sir, as regards the Wednesday half holiday I consider it a Godsend to the members, and a mistake was made when the hour of meeting on that day during the first part of the session was fixed at two o'clock. As my hon. friend says, every one forgets that the House meets at two o'clock. And besides, it is not conducive to health that so early in the afternoon members should be called upon to legislate in the House of Commons. Furthermore, we do not do so much work during that additional hour that we could not very well meet at the usual hour of three o'clock. I therefore agree absolutely with my hon. friend from Shelburne and Queen's in asking the House favourably to consider amending the rule so that on Wednesday the House might meet at three o'clock and adjourn at six, giving us the rest of the day.
Now, as regards the late sittings, I will be more emphatic on this question than some of my hon. friends. I say that it is unbusinesslike that we should sit from practically the first day of the session until the last, after twelve o'clock at night. Under such circumstances, how can you expect a member of Parliament, who is anxious to perform his duties with diligence and care, to study any question either in the library here or at his own residence? How can you expect him to give any subject the consideration it deserves, if he is obliged to be in his seat from three o'clock in the afternoon until one o'clock or sometimes two o'clock in the morning? And in

the morning, Mr. Speaker, the member is not idle; he has to attend various committees-the Railway Committee, the Public Accounts Committee, the Insurance Committee, the Banking Committee, and others. How can a member of Parliament attend to the business of the country with reasonable diligence and care if his day is filled as I have described? It is not fair to the member; it is not fair to his electors; it is not fair to the country.
My hon. friend from North Simcoe says that we have the very best rules possible. Well, take the British Parliament. Except on certain occasions agreed upon between the Government and the Opposition, the House of Commons at Westminster never sits after eleven o'clock in the evening; unless it be by reason of some very grave question under consideration. It is true, however, that the British House of Commons sits nearly the whole year round, with just a few intervals of adjournment; but at all events, except on very special occasions, as I have said, when there is an agreement between both leaders, the House never sits after eleven o'clock. In France it is the same; except on questions of grave importance, the Chamber never sits after nine o'clock in the evening. Take the United States Congress; it is very seldom that congressmen sit after ten or eleven o'clock at night. So that we might very well amend our rules and make it a question of agreement between the Government and the Opposition as to when the House shall sit after eleven o'clock. Of course, at the end of the session, when there is much business to be overtaken, there might be a few sittings beyond that hour; but for the rest of the session, I contend that there is no reason for those late sittings. My hon. friend asks: How can we shorten the session? Well, they have found a remedy in England. The hon. gentleman, a moment ago, spoke of the closure, and the wisdom of enforcing this measure. I must say that while the closure exists under our rules, it is not one of those weapons that any parliamentarian would care to use. In the United States, there comes a moment in any debate when, by mutual agreement, between the Whips, the speeches delivered thereafter shall not take more than ten minutes, or perhaps even five minutes. It is agreed that some of the principal speeches on both sides will cover a certain length of time, the others being limited to ten minutes, or twenty minutes at the outside. But in England there is a better rule still than

the closure. There is a time-saving system which is about to be adopted. They have, during the war, established over there a select Committee on National Expenditures, composed of members of both sides of the House. That committee scrutinized the various items of the Estimates; called for expert witnesses from the several departments; submitted to the Government proposals for reductions; and thereby exercised that very function for which Parliament exists, namely, the control of expenditures. My hon. friend suggested a moment ago that a minister might come before the House and say: To-day I give notice that so many items from the Estimates will be taken up, and after a delay of twenty-four hours they will be automatically voted.
This is not the way I understand British freedom. If these items had been scrutinized and reported upon, not by a committee of the whole House, but by a Select Committee, there would be very little discussion, except on a few selected items. That is the way they proceed in the Parliament in London. There they will have the Irish night, they will have the Scotch night, they will have the Welsh night, and they will have the English night. They take the items affecting these sections of the United Kingdom, and the time of the House is not lost there as it is here on items of the Estimates. It seems to me that this would be a proper reform, and when accomplished I am quite sure would have the effect of reducing the session by at least one or two months.


John Allister Currie: I think the hon. gentleman is mistaken about the Committee on National Expenditures. That committee investigates expenditures that have been made, but there is no change in the rules with regard to the Committee of Supply of the House.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I advise my hon. friend to read the book which has lately been published by Mr. Davenport.


John Allister Currie: I have got the rules of the House.


Rodolphe Lemieux: This committee was
established during the war and saved millions to the Government in Great Britain by pointing out useless expenditures. The chairman of that committee was the exPostmaster General, Sir Herbert Samuel, who is now Governor in Palestine, and there is a recommendation by them that the National Expenditures Committee be
116J
made permanent. I understand that the question is now before the British Parliament, and that the committee has ninety-nine chances out of one hundred of becoming permanent. At all events I desire to say-


John Allister Currie: If the hon. gentleman
will pardon me, the impression which I, and other members, gathered from my hon. friend's remarks was, that in England there was a permanent committee of Parliament on national expenditures dealing with this question, and that consequently there was no necessity for discussion there in Committee of Supply. But the House goes into Committee of Supply over there just the same as it ever did. The committee to which my hon. friend refers was purely a special committee, and is not a permanent one under the rules of the House.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It may not be a permanent committee at the present moment, but it was established and maintained during the war and has rendered most valuable service to the Government and to Parliament, and as an institution it will remain. I say that when you have that committee you need not have closure, because the items will have been scrutinized in advance by members of the House and the debate on these matters will be much more intelligible than it is at the present time. I think it would be wise if, on certain occasions, there was an agreement between the Whips to limit the duration of debate. They have that system in the United States and they are a most practical people. The moment closure is imposed by the Government it has not the same flavour; but if there is a mutual agreement, a gentleman's agreement, between the Whips that the speeches will be limited we will have here what they have in the United States-a common-sense debate on the big issues of the day. On the whole I support the motion of my hon. friend for Shelburne and Queen's.


Mr. H. B. MORPHY (North Perth) :: I think it is a good thing in the interest of the House and of the country that this resolution has been introduced. On listening to the arguments which have been advanced, not only during the present but during other recent sessions, I have been very much struck with the idea fhat if the principle of the closure were applied all the time it would raise the standard of debate in this House. That idea is based upon a recollection of what happened after

the one occasion, I think, upon which closure was applied in this House, under the rules; but I think if any hon. gentleman will take the trouble to consult the record of the first and second sessions after closure was introduced on the occasion in question he will be convinced, overwhelmingly convinced, that the standard of 5 p.m. debate in this House was never in its history as high as it was immediately after closure had been tried. The speeches were shorter, they gave evidence of more thought, and to my mind abundantly showed more preparatory work on the part of the individual member in connection with the subject matter which he rose to discuss. I have always been convinced of that; and I put forth the suggestion that if, by co-operation among the members generally, we could obtain the same result as followed from the application of the closure this Parliament would shine forth to the outside world, and in particular to all our constituents, as a more business-like assembly of men sent here by the people to conduct the country's affairs. The other night the House was regaled with a speech by one hon. member which lasted for five hours-five hours of what I would call destructive criticism; in fact it was hardly worthy of the name of criticism, its every tendency was factious and destructive. There was hardly an item in that five-hours speech that was of a nature tending to assist the Government in the solving of the great problems that are now on hand. Now, a speech of five hours in the British Parliament, or in any other parliament in the world, would bring down the wrath of the nation. That wrath would be aroused by anyone having the temerity to waste that much time in a deliberative assembly. Yet we are treated occasionally to five-hour speeches, although sometimes they are shorter-sometimes they occupy three hours, and sometimes two hours. I venture the assertion that any man who wishes to speak two, three, four or five hours can enhance his reputation a thousand fold by occupying far less time and limiting his speech to three-quarters of an hour. I did notice, in the celebrated example to which I have referred, that the speech consisted of verbiage-it was wanting in logic, in reason and in objective, except that there was apparently the idea of stultifying the opposite party. I do not believe the people of Canada to-day are very much concerned with the "Ins" and the "Outs" in this House, with what party

shall take the Government side and what party shall go into Opposition-not nearly so much concerned with that idea as they are concerned with the great problems the country has to solve, and the solving of them by members generally bending their energies towards assisting the Government in reaching a sane solution. This should be a business man's Parliament, because our problems are greater than they ever were before in the history of Canada. It is a business man's opportunity, and, if I may be permitted, I would say to the members of all parties that the closer they get to the idea that there are great problems to be solved, and that the country is looking to hon. members to solve those problems, instead of talking captiously and destructively for two, three or five hours, the more correctly they will interpret the feelings of their constituents. In that sense I would like to suggest, that parties should unite as far as possible upon the great problems confronting the country and bend their energies to a sane Canadian solution of them, and that credit for honesty of purpose should be given to any constructive suggestion no matter whence it comes. In a word, that hon. members should get down to close business-like efforts, irrespective of party, to solve these problems as quickly as possible in order to expedite our national affairs, save the time of the House and let the members get back to their homes. It seems to me that we are forgetting that time is valuable outside the House as well as inside.
The hon. member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) spoke of the Wednesday evening holiday being a God-send. I quite agree with him that it is, but that is because we waste so many other nights and get home so late in the mornings that it becomes absolutely necessary to have such a respite from our arduous labours. I believe that nearly all hon. members will agree with my statement that there is a factious opposition, a speaking of words, and words, and words, until sometimes, I must confess, I think that the brains of some hon. gentlemen have ceased to function, for they speak without thinking, purely for obstructive purposes, saying this, that or the other thing by way of organized opposition to some hon. minister who is not very well liked. What has that got to do with the policy of the country? It is prostituting parliamentary life to gratify personal animosity. We have notorious examples of that sort in the House. Such tactics do not make for high parliamentary standing,

and we may be certain that the country does not approve of the actions of such hon. gentlemen.
I have a suggestion to offer which I think will appeal to us all, Mr. Speaker,-including myself probably, although I have tried not to dilate at undue length on any subject which I have debated in this House. There is a rule, I think, in the United States Congress that members who wish to speak to their constituents-and that seems to be the great desire here-so that their speeches may be published in the local newspapers, may hand those speeches in to the Speaker already typewritten, and the Congressmen are then free to attend to other business with the fujl assurance that their speeches will duly appear in the Congressional Record. It seems to me that that might be a very good rule to introduce here. I am sure that the hon. member for Maisonneuve in the quiet of the library or in the shelter of his own home, would find it a welcome relief to write out his speeches, of course not at too great length, and hand them in to the Speaker to be printed in the next day's Hansard; and thus having seen to the enlightenment of his constituents, he would be free to attend to some other business.
I believe that the Wednesday holiday is a good thing, if we are bound to sit up until such late hours. But this debate, even if it should serve no other purpose, from my point of view, has enabled me to express my opinion that we waste too much time in factious and destructive criticism, and that we do not spend quite enough time over business which ought to engage our closest attention,-that while we oppose the Estimates of one minister's department we let the Estimates of another minister's department go through practical scot free, and the factious opposition is just for the purpose of creating an effect which even though it is reflected in the press, is but evanescent, and for which the country does not care a snap of the finger.


Mr. A. B. COPP (Westmoreland):: Mr. Speaker, I did not notice anything in this very innocent resolution introduced by my hon. friend from Shelburne and Queen's (Mr. Fielding) that would give my hon. friend opposite the opportunity of reading a lecture to the Ooposition for having, as he put it, organized factious and destructive criticism against some cabinet minister to block his Estimates. During the time I have been a supporter of the Opposition
I do not know that such a condition of affairs has ever obtained on this side of the House, and I am sure that my hon. friend has entirely misinterpreted our attitude.
My hon. friend from Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) expressed himself personally along the same line that I would have folowed with regard to the attendance of hon. members. Coming from some distance, I realize that it is very important for all the members to get through with the business of the House as quickly as possible having due regard to the importance of that business. I have been a rather regular attendant both in this House and also on committees to which I have been appointed, and I have found that in sitting on committees until one o'clock-and that always means a few minutes*after-it is impossible to get out to luinch and be back in time for the two o'clock sittings on Wednesday afternoons. I do not believe that the earlier hour of our meeting on Wednesday afternoons expedites public business very much; but if I felt that meeting at 3 o'clock would lengthen the session by one day, I would feel as my hon. friend from Vancouver said, that the House should meet at two o'clock. I do not believe it has had that effect, and for that reason I think the House should meet at three o'clock every day.
With regard to the Wednesday evening off, my hon. friend from Shelburne and Queen's said that hon. members desired this evening for social engagements. I am not very much given to such engagements, but still I feel that Wednesday evening is very important to a large number of hon. members. If we cannot engage in social affairs, at least we need recreation along different lines, and I believe that this freedom on Wednesday evenings is a very real benefit to hon. members. I have always thought that that evening is taken away by the Government too early in the session. I do not mind losing it towards the end of the session when it is necessary to get business through as rapidly as possible, but I think, with the hon. member for Shelburne and Queen's, that if we have not that evening free from the work of the House a great many of us will naturally take any evening that suits our convenience. Therefore there is a very real advantage to the conduct of the business of the House by reason of hon. members making their social engagements for Wednesday evenings.

As to adjourning the House at eleven o'clock each night, I quite agree with my hon. friends resolution because he has added a proviso-unless circumstances may require a later sitting-which, of course, must be left to the Government to determine. My hon. friend from Red Deer (Mr. Clark) expressed himself against that part of the resolution, and he instanced the fact that my hon. friend from Shelburne and Queen's on one occasion made a very eloquent speech after eleven o'clock at night.


Michael Clark: Many.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I have no doubt he has made many such speeches. My hon. friend knows that the eloquence of the mover of this resolution is such that he can always be depended upon to make a very interesting speech at any time of the day or night when he feels called upon in the public interest to address the House. But I would say to my hon. friend from Red Deer and to other hon. members that there should be no necessity for any hon. member to be called upon to deliver an important speech after eleven or twelve o'clock at night. The House should adjourn not later than midnight and give hon. gentlemen an opportunity of making such a speech at a time when there will be a full attendance of members to listen to their arguments. Personally, I feel that the work of this House should not be a test of physical strength. It should be a matter of getting the public business before this House in a reasonable, earnest, straightforward manner. The duties of Parliament are important, and they can be properly attended to only during reasonable hours,- such hours as those during which a man may ordinarily be expected to give attention to his public or private business.
The hon. member for North Simcoe (Mr. Currie) says that if the rules are changed so as to enable members of Parliament who are business men residing in Ontario to go home on Fridays and attend to their business, this whole Parliament will become a farce. With that assertion I am not in agreement. It is quite obvious that we want business men in this Parliament, and it is true that we have a number of them here. Business men from Toronto, Montreal and other places which are near the seat of Government can, I submit, attend to their business and at the same time carry on their legislative duties.
I do not know that there is much to be said in regard to what has been referred
[Mr. Copp.)
to as an unwritten arrangement concerning Mondays and Fridays. I do not know that any such arrangement has been followed in Parliament during the time that I have been here. Of course, an item of business has been occasionally held over because an hon. member specially interested in it desired to take part in the discussion, but, generally speaking, the work of the House proceeds on Mondays and Fridays just as it does on the other days of the week. I know that last Friday night the work of the House went on as usual; we sat here until half-past twelve.
In reply to my hon. friend's remarks concerning the proposal that the House should adjourn at eleven o'clock each night, I submit that we do not make very much progress by sitting considerably later. As I say, to sit a few moments after eleven will not matter, but in the case of Estimates or any other subject coming up after eleven o'clock members of the House are tired and weary and more or less fretful and annoyed, and we do not get on with the business as we would if we had a regular hour for adjournment. Once the feeling prevails that someone is trying to force something through, the attitude is naturally taken by some that it shall not go through, and if it does not go through at eleven it will not go through at twelve or at one, so that sitting later is productive of no advantage. For these reasons, Mr. Speaker, I support the motion of the hon. member for Shelburne and Queen's.


Mr. H. C. HOCKEN (West Toronto) :: Mr. Speaker, I have a great deal of sympathy with the motion presented by the hon. member for Shelburne and Queen's (Mr. Fielding). I think that when we start work at ten o'clock in the morning and keep at it until eleven at night, we ought to "call it a day." If we continue to extend our sittings until two or three o'clock in the morning it will be necessary for some one to organize a National Union of Canadian Orators and strike for an eight-hour day or something of that kind. If the members of this House would exercise their privileges .-I was going to say with more intelligence; perhaps I ought to say, with greater care- it would not be necessary to organize such a union and it would not be necessary to sit after eleven o'clock. When a man speaks for four or five hours on one subject, as happened the other night, he not only wearies Parliament but I think he commits an oratorical crime. We listened to the hon. member for Quebec East (Mr. La-

pointe) the other day for nearly an hour and a half reading from a newspaper. Practically every member of the House had read the article in question. If the hon. member wanted that to go on the record, I submit that it should have been taken as read, and, as the member for North Perth (Mr. Morphy) suggests, handed in for insertion in Hansard.
Since coming to this House I have been very much surprised at the length of the speeches, at the verbosity of some hon. members. My training has been entirely different from that of the lawyer, who seems ordinarily to earn his fee by the length of his speech.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Not at all. We do
not do that.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Well, I am judging simply by what I have heard since coming here. If some of these lawyers had taken courses in journalism they would condense their speeches. The reason why the gentlemen of the press do not occupy the gallery on occasions is this extraordinary verbosity to which I have referred. They get only a grain of argument out of a bushel cf remarks, so they spend their time elsewhere than in the gallery. I would like to submit to members who offend in this respect that they not only waste the time of this House, but they offend against their own reputations. Some of the most important speeches made in the Imperial House of Commons occupy but twenty minutes or half an hour; and in these speeches statements are made not merely of national but of international and worldwide importance and significance. But to make a speech like that requires some work. I am reminded of the young rector who was complaining to his bishop that it made him sweat to prepare his sermons. The bishop patted him on the shoulder and said: "Well, my boy, somebody has to sweat; it is either you or the congregation." And that is about the way it is in this House; if the members will not sweat in the preparation of their speeches, then the rest of the members have to suffer. The Lord knows we do suffer, Mr. Speaker, from some of the addresses that are given, for a man will take an hour or two, sometimes more than that, to say something that he should condense into about twenty-five minutes. Now, I do not want to transgress in this respect, but I just want to make one reference to my hon. friend from Graspy-


An hon. MEMBER:: Where is that constituency?


Horatio Clarence Hocken: -the hon. member for Graspy, who, I think, is one of the greatest offenders in this respect. He speaks at tremendous length and on every question. Nothing is quite settled until the member for Graspy has-


Pierre-François Casgrain: He has more experience than you have. He knows more than you do.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I have no doubt; I am but a very humble and inexperienced member of the House. But I have lived in the world about as long as my hon. friend from Graspy. I have had some experiences elsewhere, and, perhaps, being of the same age as the hon. gentleman, I might be able to give him a bit of advice-advice, Sir, such as was tendered to me when I was a young man. I began my career as a reporter on a newspaper; and you know, Sir, a young reporter always imagines that the particular article he writes is the most important thing that is going into the paper. Now, we had a very efficient city editor on that journal, and I remember that on more than one occasion when I brought in a comparatively insignificant story, spread out at length, as the hon. member for Graspy spreads out his remarks, the city editor would look it over and would say to me: "Young man, you are too damn diffuse; cut this down to a stick."


An hon. MEMBER:: Order.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I am simply quoting the story verbatim. Now, I would tender that advice to my hon. friend from Graspy-


Pierre-François Casgrain: Where is that place?


Horatio Clarence Hocken: -and to some of those four or five-hour runners who get the track and keep it till the end of the session. There are half a dozen men in the House who could save us a good deal of time if they would. But, Sir, when I recall the distinguished appearance of my hon. friend from Graspy as he utters one of those orations-taken largely from the speeches of Lord Palmerston-I am afraid that he will not accept my advice. What I would propose would be this-a change in the rules that would limit speeches to half an hour, unless the unanimous consent of the House were given for an extension of time for The speech of any hon. member. I have sat in other legislative bodies where we had a rule of that kind; and if a man

had really anything to say that required more than that time, he was always given permission; but the rule gave us an excellent opportunity to see that the debate was not carried on simply for the purpose of some man hearing himself speak or preparing material for the next general election. If the House would make a rule that half an hour should be the limit for a speech, we would not need to sit after eleven o'clock at night and we would not need to form a Canadian National Union of Orators.


Mr. J. W. EDWARDS (Frontenac):: Mr. Speaker, when this matter has been brought up as it has been on other occasions in this House, I have always subordinated my view as to the time spent in this chamber to the opinions of members representing constituencies in the far East or the far West. It is possible for myself andmanyother members from Ontario and Quebec constituencies, to go home on Fridays and to get in touch with their businesses. That is a privilege and a very great advantage to those hon. gentlemen; but members from the far West and those from the Maritime Provinces cannot very well do that without losing time in the House. Therefore, I have felt that, whatever my views might be in regard to the time that is spent in this chamber, I should be willing to give way to the opinions of those members who represent constituencies at a distance from Ottawa.
I do not think there is any more time wasted in this House in proportion to the number of its members, the vast extent of this Dominion and the multiplicity of questions that come up, than is wasted in other deliberative assemblies throughout this country. It has become a common practice to refer to long speeches and the length of time wasted in this House, and frequently we see our newspapers writing editorials on the question. This has always struck me as somewhat inconsistent on the part of newspapers when one has only to turn over a page or two in order to see the quantity of space absolutely wasted with "Peter Pal," "Mutt and Jeff" and other stuff of a like nature which is not of any benefit to any person in the Dominion of Canada. Another waste of time that I have seen on the part of newspapers and newspaper editors is a repetition of one day's editorial in the next day's issue. I do not think there is any more time wasted in this chamber than is wasted in county councils or other municipal bodies in proportion to the num-

ber of members in those bodies and the subjects with which they have to deal. We are all fallible; we are all liable to make mistakes and I presume, as long as there is a Parliament for Canada, there will always be a certain amount of time wasted in this as in any other assembly, I do not care what it is.
It has always struck me that some time might be saved in the early part of the session. It is usually two or three weeks before committees get down to work, and I see no reason, and I have never been able to see any, why Parliament should not meet in the mornings in the first few weeks of the session, at least until committees organize and get to work, when, of course, morning sittings would be impossible as members could not be in the chamber and on committees at the same time.
As regards Wednesday evening sittings, it has always seemed to me that the Wednesday evening holiday, which is given to members in the first few weeks or month or so of the session, has been for the benefit of two classes of persons who attend Parliament, those persons who have formed the habit of attending prayer meeting once a week, usually on Wednesday night and who, having formed that habit, of course, want to continue it when they come to Ottawa-and there is very great reason why they should continue it-and those other persons who have got caught in the social whirl in Ottawa and want Wednesday evening to attend to that. I have never been greatly troubled in either direction and, therefore, I have always been willing to attend sessions of Parliament on Wednesday evenings. I can see no earthly reason why Parliament should sit from two to six o'clock on Wednesday and not sit on Wednesday evening, but sit from three to six o'clock on Thursday and from eight to eleven or twelve o'clock the same night. I am absolutely opposed to the Wednesday evening holiday, whether it is for the benefit of those who want to attend prayer meeting that night or for the benefit of those who are caught in the social whirl and want to attend to that. In other words, I think that they might confine all their dances to Saturday evenings and their prayer meetings to Sunday afternoons and evenings.
As regards limiting the evening sitting to eleven o'clock, I do not think it would be advisable to make any hard-and-fast rule in that respect. We have an hour fixed for the meeting of Parliament, but to fix eleven o'clock or any other hour as

the hour at -which the House should and must close at night, -would be inadvisable. Very often you might be in the midst of something of importance, perhaps a matter of getting through some Estimates; the subject might have been pretty well exhausted in debate and just about ready to go through, some progress to be made about eleven o'clock; but some person realizes that there is a rule or an understanding that the House is to adjourn at eleven o'clock, and, availing himself of that, keeps the thing going for a few minutes more until the House automatically rises. The closing hour should be left to the common sense and intelligence of members composing this House, and when, in their wisdom, they think it advisable for the House to sit until half past eleven or eleven o'clock or a quarter to eleven, well and good. We are not schoolboys; we are men of mature age, and common sense will regulate the matter pretty well. There may be some nights when we will exceed the limit and go to one or two o'clock in the morning, without doubt to the regret of every person in the chamber. That sort of thing is not likely to be repeated night after night, and why? Because the common sense of members is opposed to anything of the kind. Therefore, it would be far better to leave the hour of closing to the good judgment of the members composing the House.
Right hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Prime Minister) : The first section of the motion of the hon. member for Shelburne and Queen's (Mr. Fielding), to the effect that the Wednesday afternoon sitting should open at three o'clock commencing with the first of the session, deals with a matter that I think should be regulated pretty much to meet the will of the majority of members, and consequently could best be done after inquiry and report by a committee. The rules of the House are almost invariably amended on report of a committee. It is now some years since such a committee sat, but I would not think it would be wise at the present session to appoint another. We have so many important and special committees now, and so many hon. members are engaged thereon, that, particularly at this period of the session, with the work becoming heavier for each and all of us, we should consider carefully before embarking upon another.
As to the second and more [DOT] important portion of the resolution I have views that I desire to oppose to those of the hon. member who moves it, and I do so with
deference, knowing that his experience is much longer than mine, and that he doubtless has studied the subject more carefully. I, of course, naturally look upon this matter from the standpoint of the Government. He, just as naturally, looks upon it from the standpoint of the Opposition.


William Stevens Fielding: No.


Arthur Meighen: The hon. member for Maisonneuve has reinforced the argument of the mover of the resolution by a reference to the practice of the British House. I think I can use that reference to show wherein we necessarily differ from that House. The British House does have some general rule whereby it closes at about eleven o'clock, but there is this very great difference: In the British House closure became a fact and a rule away back in the eighties, I think. It became a matter of constant practice through many years and even decades, and growing out of the constant application of closure there evolved what is looked upon as a sort of voluntary closure, agreed upon by the whips of both sides-a practice that never could have become established, and never, indeed, would likely have existed, had it not been for the fact of the closure being constantly applied by the Government, and necessarily applied, to get the public business done. In this House we have voluntary closure at times, but it is very, very rare, and I do not think that with the practice we have now, even though we have a rare resort to closure, we could ever make much progress by agreement between the whips for the shortening of speeches or the shortening of debates. We try that, but we do not succeed; that has been the practice under both Governments. The reason, chiefly, is the one I have just given, that closure in Canada is of much later growth. In England they have had closure all through these years, and consequently there has been time for this practice to grow, a practice that naturally takes root in the closure rule, because the whips on both sides know that unless they succeed voluntarily, then by force majeure the debate comes to an end anyway, because closure is applied. Consequently, they are able to get business done from day to day under the influence of the rule on the one hand, and this practice that has grown out of it on the other.
But there is this further. In Great Britain the closure rule is immediate and almost automatic, that is to say, they can bring discussions to a close almost at any

time, and without notice. In Canada we have a much more considerate closure rule. We can only apply it one day to take effect the next, and then only at one o'clock on the following morning. I think it is well that in these matters we move slowly. While the closure rule remains as it is in this House, it is a matter of actual experience that we can make no sufficient progress if we are going to have an automatic rising of the House at eleven o'clock at night. Of that I have not the least doubt whatever. Why, what progress have we made up to now, Mr. Speaker? Any real business that has been done since the House opened on February 14, this year,-and we have not had any eleven o'clock automatic rising,-has been done mainly after eleven o'clock at night, and much of it well on towards morning. On the whole of this question I am very much in agreement, under present circumstances, with the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark). I do not think it is possible to make progress if we have anything like an automatic rising of the House at eleven or any special hour.
While I am on my feet, I call attention to the hours at which the House has risen. Sometimes, but very rarely, have we risen much past eleven o'clock. I have before me the hours from the beginning of the session until now, and eleven would represent about the average. I know the dates on which we rose later, and those are the very dates when we got the work of Parliament done. I would like, indeed, if faster progress could be made. I am not saying this to complain especially. Possibly if I were on the Opposition side I would have another viewpoint, but I am going to try, if I ever get there, to be more reasonable in this regard than I have found the present Opposition. We are met practically every time we attempt to go into Supply with a motion on one subject or another; I will not say of no importance, but I do say that if this House sat 365 days in the year I could guarantee to place in the hands of the Opposition an amendment every day that would be of equal importance to any that they have advanced so far. You can always get a matter, I will not say of no importance, but one that will serve the purpose of creating a discussion and creating press material, and that is what really goes on. So if we intend to make progress from now onwards, it would be fatal, indeed, if we should now come to any decision to rise automatically at eleven o'clock. I would think we would soon be where the

British House is to-day in one regard: we would be sitting the whole year round, for that has become the British practice. Indeed, so great is the effort there to get on with public affairs, that automatic closure is applied constantly, and even then they frequently do not rise for dinner. The House will run right on from six to eight o'clock, certain members going out at certain times. That is how they are able to rise at eleven. If they had our practice in other respects, had our closure, and the rare application of it, the business of the Old Land could not begin to be done if they rose at eleven o'clock or at any set time, though it were hours later than that. Consequently, while I do not feel there is any possibility of the acceptance by the Government of the latter part of his resolution, there is considerable to be said for the first part, and it would appear to me it would be better for that matter to be taken up by a special committee at the beginning of a session.


Mr. J. A. MAHARG (Maple Creek) :: I
find myself in agreement to a certain extent with what the hon. member for Centre Vancouver (Mr. Stevens) has said. The method of conducting the business of this House, and the length of the sittings is of considerable importance to those members whose homes are a long distance from Ottawa. It appears to those of us who are so situated that several changes might be made with considerable advantage to us, at least, and without any great disadvantage, I believe, to members residing nearer to the seat of Government. Take private members' day. I can see no good reason why private members, instead of having Monday and Wednesday, should not have Monday and Friday. I believe it is usually understood between the party whips just what matters are to come up on private members' day, and members who were sufficiently interested in any matter that would come up for discussion might very well remain over the week-end. I do not think that would seriously interfere with the rights of any one.
For once at least, I agree with the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards). We do not usually see eye to eye, but I do concur in his views, to a considerable extent, in the matter of Wednesday sittings. He is of the opinion that we might very well sit on Wednesday mornings during the early part of the session. I would go much further and suggest that during the early part of the session we might also sit on

Wednesday night, at least while the debate on the Address was being discussed. After all, no particular question is ever under discussion in that debate; it is usually a rambling repetition from beginning to end; it is practically a re-hash of what has been previously dealt with. In the debate on the Address the same matters come up that have been talked over scores of times before and I think we might very well devote Wednesday nights to a continuation of that dehate until its conclusion. I would not press my point in regard to the Budget debate. But I do think, Mr. Speaker, that we might very well sit on Wednesday nights during the early part of the session, at least until we disposed of the debate on the Address.
I was much interested in the remarks of the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Hocken), regarding the length of speeches It struck me forcibly at the time he was speaking that there is very little difference between an hon. member making one long speech on a specific subject, and another hon. gentleman making several possibly shorter speeches on another subject. I have listened, on several occasions, to the hon. member making somewhat lengthy speeches in regard to the Civil Service Commission, and if we took the various periods taken up by him and added them together the result would probably compare favourably with the length of time occupied the other night by an hon. member who spent, I believe, something like five hours of the time of the House discussing a certain subject. Even if the House adjourned at 11 o'clock I am doubtful if it would have shortened the speech of the hon. gentleman very much, for I am convinced that, from his point of view, the subject was far from being exhausted, and had the House adjourned at 11 o'clock, supposing he had the floor then, it might have been possible for him to have started again the next day and to have continued for several hours more. So that in that respect we might not' have been further ahead on that occasion by an early closing.
Members from a distance would suggest an earlier calling of the session. Why not go back to the old practice of calling the session in November and giving a fairly lengthy recess during the Christmas holidays, so that those engaged in the retail business might have sufficient time to wind up their affairs for the year, and also better cope with the Christmas rush? If that were not quite convenient, then I would suggest that we
meet as early in the New Year as possible. Then again, in the matter of Easter holidays, we think it is rather unfair for members who reside in proximity to Ottawa to object to a longer recess at Easter. I understand the objection comes principally from those who are so situated and who can attend to their business over the week-end. Now, we do not very seriously object to their paying particular attention to their business at that time, but we do submit that to those of us who live at a distance from the Capital, a five-day recess is of no use; we should have the privilege of a two weeks' vacation to enable us to attend to our affairs at home. If we calculate strictly the number of days which members have off, we find that in addition to the fifteen days to which members of Parliament are entitled, a great many members can avail themselves of the week-end holiday. If I might make the remark, I observe in the lobbies on Fridays quite a number of coats, canes, etc., hanging around, which disappear shortly after the House opens; and a similar condition prevails on Mondays, when members on their return even have their grips in their hands in order to get into the House before adjournment. Those who can avail themselves of the week-end, in addition to the fifteen days allowed, are to all intents and purposes taking forty-seven days to themselves out of a total of eighty days, if we reckon on a basis of sixteen weeks as the length of the session. Those of us who cannot take advantage of more than the fifteen days think this is scarcely fair.
A point raised by the member for North Simcoe (Mr. Currie) was that if you did away with this Friday and Monday holiday, if I might. term it a holiday, you would practically prevent business men from becoming members of Parliament. I wonder whether we are to conclude from that remark that there are no business men in the House other than those who are enabled to attend to their business over the weekend. Leaving myself and those employed in the same occupation out of the question, I could mention several business men in this House whose business is just as difficult [DOT] to manage from a distance as that of the average commercial and industrial business man, if not more so. We have such men representing western constituencies. We have a number of professional men who cannot delegate their business to others without very serious loss, and I do not see why it should be any more difficult for an eastern business man to be a member of

Parliament than it is for a western business man, from my hon. friend's point of view.
Now, as to the closure, I do not think I can be accused of taking up more than a fair share of the time of the House, hut to me word "closure" sounds somewhat harsh. I think that other methods just as effective and less objectionable might be devised. For instance, suppose you cease the publication of Hansard. I wonder what effect that would have. I am of opinion that if you cut out the printing of Hansard, it would have considerable effect on the length of debates; and, to use the ordinary expression, it would then be up to the member himself if he wished to have his speech distributed among his constituents. I would still furnish the facilities for him if he wished to have that done; but as to his speech being printed, it would be a matter entirely for him to decide and it would be for him to defray the expense. Again, referring to the question of closing at 11 o'clock, I fully agree with the Prime Minister when he says that so far this session the real business of the House has been conducted after 11 o'clock. I believe I am within the mark when I say that the Opposition have been largely responsible for this fact.
On almost every occasion when a motion has been made to go into Committee of Supply an amendemnt has been moved which, in most instances, has occupied very nearly the whole of the sitting up to eleven o'clock. I am not criticizing this proceeding-it may be absolutely necessary and the submission of such amendments may be quite proper-but nevertheless if we are going to limit the time within' which we shall sit to eleven o'clock, then I think we must be prepared for a similar condition to that in the Old Country where Parliament sits practically all the year round.
In the discussion considerable importance has been attached to the matter of physical endurance, and as to the possibility of the limit of that endurance being reached when members are asked to sit so late. If hon. members occupied their seats all the time there might be some foundation for that argument. I quite agree that if hon. members had to keep their seats during the entire sitting of the House, there might be force in such an argument, but, the actual facts do not support the contention. A casual observation will show that, on the average, not more than one-fifth of the seats of the House can be claimed as occupied

continuously; the attendance of members varies and has even fallen to the point where the Speaker has had on one occasion to adjourn the House for want of a quorum. Very often the attendance will only number some fifty or sixty members-indeed unless the occasion is a special one it is very seldom that more than fifty or sixty members are in their seats. Unfortunately for me I am not a smoker, and I have not as good an excuse to advance for leaving the chamber as some hon. gentlemen employ when they wish to take a little leisure out in the lobby or elsewhere. I do not think, therefore, that any hon. member is suffering very much by reason of the continued occupancy of his chair, and we do not need to worry very much about such a point as that when we are not compelled to remain in the chamber continuously. For these reasons I do not know that I can support the resolution except as to opening the proceedings at three o'clock on Wednesday. I am unable, however, to support the proposition that the latest hour for sittings, unless there be good reason to the contrary, shall be eleven o'clock.


William Stevens Fielding: If the House will bear with me for a few minutes I think I shall be able to say before the House rises for dinner, all that I wish to say in reply. I regret that the motion has come up at a time when so many hon. members are absent, because, from the conversations 1 have had with many hon. gentlemen on both sides, I am satisfied that the purpose of this motion has a larger degree of sympathy than has been made evident in the discussion to-day. I have already intimated that I have no intention of asking the House to divide upon this motion. If I felt that such a motion would have the effect of prolonging the session, as suggested by the hon. member for Centre Vancouver (Mr.Stevens). I would be among the first to oppose it. However, I do not think it would have that result; I think the effect would be quite the opposite.
I sympathize with the views expressed by hon. members who have been described -I think it was by my hon. friend from Maple Creek (Mr. Maharg)-as the "long distance members." They are in a different position from those hon. gentlemen who come from Montreal and Toronto, and I quite sympathize with them in their attitude. On the other hand I must make this observation-which I hope will not be found to be inaccurate-that in looking around at the empty seats at a late hour

I find that just as many " long distance members " are absent as those who might be described as " short distance members." I do not find that in that respect distance makes very much difference. There is a disposition on the part of members not to submit to the long and continued sittings;
and if you are not going to have 6 p.m. an occasional recess-if you are going to sit on Wednesday nights, and on other nights as well, until eleven o'clock, you may do so nominally but later than that you will not do so in reality because members will not remain; and anybody who wants evidence of that fact can come into this chamber almost any night right after eleven o'clock and he will find that in most cases there is little more than a bare quorum on the Government benches-that is an actual fact.
Now the discussion broadened into one upon the advisability of a general revision of the rules of the House. Much has been said on questions of interest, but I do not think such questions bear directly on the matter at issue here. The Prime Minister, for example, talked about motions to go into Supply and amendments thereto. That is a very interesting subject and I should like to deliver an essay some day on what is the real basis of amendments to Supply in this chamber, but I do not care to do so now. My hon. friend from Maple Creek proposed that Parliament should meet earlier. I agree with that. My hon.. friend from North Simcoe (Mr. Currie) proposed to enlarge the closure. Well, that is a large question. Possibly there may be wisdom in that suggestion, but I confined my motion to one or two particular points which seemed to me to be easily within the grasp of the House, and I do not think any sound reason has been advanced against those suggestions. It has been said by the hon. member for Centre Vancouver that there is an unwritten law that on Mondays and Fridays no business of importance shall be transacted. My hon. friend has certainly no warrant for that statement; there is no such unwritten law to my knowledge. There is a convenience at times in not bringing on matters on Monday or Friday afternoon; but there is no written law or no unwritten law on the subject. As the best evidence of that I call attention to the fact that the Prime Minister on Friday last brought forward a motion of great importance, one that he knew was likely to be a matter of contest. Still he brought it forward on Friday; he felt free
to do so and I make no complaint of his taking that course. However, I think there is no such Monday and Friday rule as my hon. friend from Centre Vancouver describes. Now, as I pointed out, if hon. members are not to be allowed an evening off they will probably take it for themselves and the only result will be that we will take up business when the House is largely empty.
There is another thought that I would like to express. Much has been said about the waste of the time of the House. There are 235 members in this chamber-I think I am correct in the statement-men with heads on their shoulders and brains in their heads. They have not been sent here to be indifferent to what is going on, and if we are going to have democratic government, if we are going to have real representation of the people, those men must give expression to their views from time to time. That is not a waste of money and it is not a waste of time-it is simply a feature of the democratic government under which we live. Very much has been said about the waste of time in Parliament which is entirely unwarrantable.
There is only one other thought which I desire to express at the moment, and it relates to a matter as to which I have no personal grievance, and from which I suffer no personal discomfort. Some of the members of the House are not as young as I am. Some that may be as young in years are not as blest with health and strength as I have the happiness to be. There are members of the House on both sides- perhaps to be accurate more on the Government side,-whose condition of health does not permit them to sit here and yet we find them brought to the House at two, three, four or five o'clock in the morning. These men have been dragged out of their sick beds to come here and take part in the discussion or to vote. That, I think, is a thing exceedingly to be regretted, and in my opinion it would be very much in the interest of good government, very much for the comfort and convenience of members as well as in the interest of efficiency, if we had rules which would enable more regard to be paid to the condition of health of these gentlemen. Mr. Speaker, I desire to withdraw the resolution.
Resolution withdrawn.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE APPOINTED ON THE MOTION OF THE PRIME MINISTER

Arthur Meighen: With the consent of the House, and the leader of the

Opposition being present, I would like to move that the House return to motions in order that I may move for the appointment of a Select Standing Committee on Railways and Shipping.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Arthur Meighen: I move, seconded by
Hon. Mr. Reid:
That the Select Standing Committee appointed on the 8 th instant, respecting the production of information, the system of auditing, the publication of detail in the Annual Report and the improvement that could he made in the general scheme of management of Canadian National Railways and Shipping as at present conducted, and the continuance of the said Committee and the reference thereto of the said Report, consist of the following members:
Messrs. Allan, Ballantyne, Bureau, Cahill, Casgrain, Chaplin, Copp, Crerar, Davidson, Duff, Hocken, Dong, Maclean (Halifax), Maclean (York) ; Manion, McRean (Royal), Mewburn; Murphy, Nicholson (Algoma) ; Papi-neau, Reid (Grenville), Reid (McKenzie), Stevens, Stewart (Banark), Tweedie, White (Victoria).


William Stevens Fielding: Is the right hon. gentleman correct in the form of his motion? It reads, "That the Select Standing Committee appointed on the 8th instant." There was an order of the House that there should be a committee, but I do not think he is correct in saying the committee was appointed.


Arthur Meighen: I noticed that. I asked the Clerk of the House to prepare the motion, and this is his drafting.


William Stevens Fielding: I do not object if the right hon. member is satisfied.


Arthur Meighen: The question is, did
the resolution of the 8th instant really appoint a committee?


Mr. SPEAKER:: No.


Arthur Meighen: Then this resolution
should read:
That the Select Standing Committee pursuant to the resolution of. the 8th instant, respecting the production of information,-
And so on.


William Stevens Fielding: That is right.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion as amended?
Motion as amended agreed to.


Arthur Meighen: I move, Mr. Speaker, that the House do return to the Order Notices of Motion.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
At Six o'clock the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at Eight o'clock.

William Stevens Fielding: For a copy of all correspondence since January 1, 1912, between the Minister of Railways and Canals or any officer of the Department of Railways and Canals at Ottawa, and any officer of the Intercolonial Railway, and between any of such officials and Messrs. G. T. Davie and Son, or any solicitor or agent of the firm, respecting the expropriation of land at Ldvis, Quebec, for the purposes of the Intercolonial Railway.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the transaction referred to in this motion for papers began, as the dates will show, several years ago, but has attracted public notice only recently through an action that has been tried in the courts-one which, indeed, is still before the courts. In August, 1912, the Government of Canada, for the purposes of the Intercolonial Railway, acquired by expropriation a property in the town of Levis in the province of Quebec owned by the firm of George T. Davie and Son and other members of their family. In the course of the transaction they employed the services of a gentleman in the real estate business in Montreal, Mr. D. W. Ogilvie, doing business under the name of D. W. Ogilvie and Company. A little later they brought into their service another gentleman in Montreal, a member of the legal profession, Mr. C. A. Barnard, K.C. These gentlemen were employed to carry on the negotiations with respect to the property. When the transaction as respects the Government was closed and the compensation determined, some difficulty arose between Messrs. Davie, the owners of the property, and Mr. Ogilvie and Mr. Barnard, who had been employed in the negotiations. A dispute having arisen as to the compensation which Messrs. Ogilvie and Barnard should receive for their services, Messrs. Davie effected a settlement with Mr. Barnard to his apparent satisfaction, but in the case of Mr. Ogilvie they were not so fortunate. Mr. Ogilvie objected to the compensation allowed him, whereupon he brought an action in the courts of the province of Quebec against Messrs. Davie. At the first stage of the action Ogilvie failed; Davie was successful. The case was then appealed to the Appeal Court in the province of Quebec and there again Mr. Ogilvie was unsuccessful. The case was

then brought to the Supreme Court of Canada and was dealt with quite recently, judgment being given in favour of Mr. Ogilvie, the judgment of the lower courts set aside and a new trial ordered. That is the way the case now stands in the courts. It is but right to say that in these proceedings the Government was not a party and neither the plaintiff nor the defendant appears tc have had any interest in probing the Government's side of the question, if there was a Government side; so that any information we get in the matter concerning the Government's action comes from what we might call the side lights; we get a glimpse of it occasionally as we look over the proceedings in the courts. Information of that character is necessarily incomplete, and it would not be wise to form a conclusion based upon it. But I think when I state in outline the facts as they appear on the records of the courts the House will agree that it is a case in respect of which we ought to have further information.
It was on August 12, 1912, that the Government acquired the property. On that day the engineer of the Intercolonial railway deposited in the Registry Office of the county of Levis a plan and description of the property in question. I think I am right in stating that in accordance with the law,. upon the plan and description being so deposited, the title to the property became vested in the Crown, subject, of course, to the right of the late owner to receive fair compensation. Now, there are two methods, either of which may in the ordinary way of business be employed to determine the compensation. The Government may themselves, by such method as suits them, fix a valuation on the property and may offer accordingly the price which they are willing to pay. If the late owner -whom I shall speak of now as the owner -is content with that; if he accepts the price so offered, the transaction is ended: But if he is not satisfied with what is offered, or if no offer is made, then the owner has the right to take his case into the Exchequer Court and that court will determine the compensation to be paid. It seems to me rather strange that neither of these ordinary business methods was adopted in this case. The Government do not appear to have made any offer to Messrs. Davie, and Messrs. Davie certainly entered no action in the Exchequer Court. The matter appears to have been allowed to drift along in the expectation that negotiations would in some way bring
about a satisfactory solution. Messrs. Davie seem to have had the notion that they could not go about this thing in a straight, simple, businesslike way-send in their claim and establish it; they seemed to have had the notion that influence-I use the word that is found in the record- was required, and they obtained the services of Mr. Ogilvie because they thought his influence would be useful. Later they thought they needed more influence, so they obtained the services of Mr. Barnard. Let me say at once that Mr. Barnard himself says he was not employed in a professional capacity; he, therefore, was not to be considered as merely making a claim for ordinary legal services-he was employed as negotiator, as he says himself, to get all that he could for the parties. Mr. Barnard, as I have said, was brought into the transaction some time after Mr. Ogilvie became concerned in it; Mr. Ogilvie seemed to have conducted the negotiations at first, and later Mr. Barnard came in. At the beginning there appeared to have been negotiations with Mr. Gutelius and others, officers of the Intercolonial Railway, but after a short time the conclusion seemed to have been reached that the matter could not be settled in that way; that recourse must be had to higher authorities. So it came about that Mr. Gutelius and others dropped out of the matter and the scene was transferred to Ottawa.
Shortly after Messrs. Ogilvie were employed they wrote a letter to Messrs. Davie with regard to the compensation that was expected. On May 7, 1913, Messrs. J. W. Ogilvie and Company wrote this letter to Messrs. George T. Davie and Sons, of Levis, Quebec:
Dear Sirs,-The Intercolonial railway of Canada have sent us a blue-print of your property situated in Dauzon Ward, Ddvis, showing the land they purpose to expropriate lying between the present Intercolonial railway and the King's Highway; the strip of land having a superficial area, according to the plan as prepared by C. A. Bourget, of 36,900 sq. ft. E.M.
In order to take up this matter with the Intercolonial railway, will you kindly write us giving us the best cash price you will accept for the 36,900 sq. ft. of land. On receipt of your letter we will communicate with the proper officials and endeavour to make a sale of the property direct to the Intercolonial railway without expropriation proceedings.
Trusting you will give this matter your early attention, as it is advisable to settle with the railway before expropriation proceedings are -started.
Yours very truly,
(Sgd.) D. W. Ogilvie & Co. Inc.
Per D. W. Ogilvie.
Here you see that the agent was asking from his principals a definite price for

which they were prepared to dispose of the property. This is the reply of George T. Davie and Son, dated at Levis, May 14, 1913:
Levis, May 14, 1913. Messrs. D. W. Ogilvie & Co.,
11 St. Sacrament Street,
Montreal, Que.
Dear Sirs,-In answer to your letter of May 7, we beg to say that we are asking one dollar and twenty-five cents ($1.25) per foot of our property which has been expropriated by the Intercolonial railway.
Yours very truly,
(Sgd.) Geo. T. Davie & Son,
Per J. O. A. V.
That communication offering the land at $1.25 per foot appears to have been conveyed, although I do not know how, to the Intercolonial Railway authorities, because at some later stage when Mr. Barnard endeavoured to get $3 per foot for the property, he was told that was ridiculous, as the Government already had the offer of Messrs. Davie and Son to sell at $1.25 per foot. That seems to have been for the moment rather a knock-out blow to the negotiators. They recovered, however, and they represented that when they offered the property for $1.25 per foot, they really meant $1.75, and that the error was merely a clerical one. The negotiations appear to have proceeded for some time on that basis and, in fact, the matter was ultimately settled without reference to the original offer. At one stage Mr. Gutelius was offered the property at $1.75 per foot, and he said that that was too much and he refused to pay it. After.the principals and their representatives made further representations to the Government, they ultimately, as I shall show, effected a settlement in which they got a very much larger price than Davie was willing to sell for. It is important, in view of what occurred subsequently to notice this letter signed by George T. Davie and Son per one of their officials offering the property at $1.25 per foot, when at a later stage the demand was made for a much higher price, and as I stated the representation was made that this letter contained a clerical error. It appears that when the matter came to trial, the gentleman who wrote this letter, under the authority, presumably, of George T. Davie and Son, was no longer in their service. He was, however, available, but he was not called as a witness. I suppose it did not interest either party to the suit to probe that question of the $1.25 per foot. After the matter was all settled, when

there was no longer any question with the Government, but when there was some question between Ogilvie and Barnard regarding their compensation, we obtained through the record, for I have no other source of information, a statement of what Mr. Barnard thought about this mistake. Mr. Barnard, writing to Mr. Ogilvie in connection with the arrangement about their compensation said :
We have succeeded in getting them-
The Davie's.
[DOT]-$1.75 per foot, notwithstanding the fact that they had at one time offered to take $1.25, and I do not possibly see how they can raise any objection to turning over everything over $1.75 per foot.
That is Mr. Barnard's letter to Mr. Ogilvie after the transaction was settled with the Government. Mr. Barnard also wrote to Mr. G. C. Stuart, K.C., of Quebec, one of the counsel in the case, as follows:
As regards the Davie's themselves, they should remember that Ogilvie's services, outside of these $15,586.15-	_
That has reference to a previous portion of the matter which is of no importance here.
-has resulted in their getting in any case 50 cents per foot for their property more than they had at one time been willing to take, which 50 cents amounted on 36,900 to $18,450, so that even if they pay Ogilvie the amount I consider he is entitled to, they are still $18,450 better off than they would have been had they not dealt at all with Ogilvie.
That is Mr. Barnard's statement. Then Mr. Barnard was a witness at the trial and this occurred in his testimony:
I thought therefore, that I ought to point out to Mr. Stuart that as a matter of fact our joint services-
Ogilvie's and Barnard's.
-in any case had resulted in getting $1.75 for the property that Davie's had been willing to take $1.25 for.
Q. That was the fact? A. That was the fact, yes.
The Government, you see, had then been settled with; but while the transaction appears to be carried on on the basis that this $1.25 per foot offer was a mistake, we find Mr. Barnard, in correspondence and in his evidence at the trial, stating and swearing that $1.25 per foot was what the Davie's were really willing to take at that time. The story is too long to burden the House with it all, because I only want to show sufficient ground to make a basis for getting further information. There was

some question of difficulty at an early stage about the area in question. At the beginning there seemed to have been one or two surveys and some misunderstanding arose in that way. At one stage a larger quantity of land was mentioned, and Mr. Campbell, Deputy Minister of Railways, in a letter stated that he thought they had included some land already owned by the Intercolonial. Messrs. Davie and Son, however, had that matter all amicably settled by declaring that the quantity of land was 30,900 feet, and in all their negotiations later on they mentioned that quantity and at the trial they swore that that was the quantity. When the deed was ultimately passed, a larger quantity of land was mentioned; instead of 36,900 feet the deed contained a mention of 63,000 and some odd feet. Mr. Barnard, commenting on that, said that it appeared to him that it was a manoeuvre-I am using his word-


Hon. Mr. REID:: The hon. member said
69,000; it should be 39,000.


William Stevens Fielding: Yes. The quantity
mentioned in the deed is 38,000 and some odd feet. The "sixty-nine" comes in a more substantial matter of dollars and cents. Mr. Barnard said that he could not quite understand why that change was made. At all events, he said, Davie was not getting any more for 38,000 odd feet than he was going to get for 36,900 feet. He said that this was a manoeuvre to cover up a sum of $5,000 which he was to get in the transaction, and that so far as he was concerned he did not want to be covered up at all. That matter, however, in the end, perhaps did not affect the general question. The main question seemed to be that Davie offered this property to the Government for $1.25 per foot, and in the end the Government paid not only $1.75 per foot, but $5,000 more. Davie allowed Barnard $10,000 for his services. Some may say: "If it suited Mr. Davie to pay to Mr. Barnard a sum of $10,000 for his services, what business is it of ours; we need not care." We need not care if it were absolutely the fact that Davie paid the $10,000; but a more careful examination of the facts shows that what Mr. Davie did was to pay only $5,000, and the other $5,000 to Mr. Barnard was paid by the convenient device of adding that sum to the charge to the Government and making the Government pay it. Mr. Barnard got $10,000, but only $5,000 of it came out of Mr. Davie. The record seems to show very clearly that for a property which the Government were offered for $1.25 per 117
foot, they paid in the end $1.75. Not only that, but they also paid an additional sum of $5,000 under the circumstances I have described.
These are the facts set forth in the proceedings in the court. If it be true that an offer was made in good faith, and Mr. Barnard treats it as a bona fide offer, to sell this property for $1.25 per foot, and if the negotiations were carried on for a long time and finally carried to Ottawa, and negotiators were employed to do that which ought not to have needed negotiators, it seems to be as simple a fact as we can present that the Government paid $18,000 odd more for that property than the owner was willing to take, and that an additional $5,000 went, not to the Davies, but to Mr. Barnard. These facts are only sidelights which come out in the course of the inquiry in the court. Again I say, one only gets a partial view of the situation. I do not want to draw any conclusions from incomplete information of that character. I quite admit that we should reserve our judgment, and I present these facts accordingly. All, I ask is that in view of these facts set forth in the court-I have no other source of information-the House should adopt the resolution, whereby we would get all the papers relating to the subject.


John Dowsley Reid: When this motion was placed on the Order Paper I asked one of my officials to get all the facts in connection with the case in order that I might be able to reply to my hon. friend when he moved his resolution in the House. I am sorry to say that up till six o'clock I had not received the information, but since that time I have endeavoured to get what little information I could in order to give it to the House this evening.
Let me say at the outset that there is no reason why all the papers and correspondence in connection with this transaction should not be brought down, and they will be brought down at the earliest possible date. This whole transaction from start to finish took place prior to my being Minister of Railways and Canals and therefore I was not personally siezed of the facts in connection with the case, but in the short time I have had since six o'clock to look into the matter I understand that these are the facts:
On December 15, 1911, the town of Levis advised the railway officials that they proposed to abandon the city stock pens which the Intercolonial had been using



EEVI3ED EDITION COMMONS

[Stage Direction]
until that time. The officials of the railway, after studying various locations for a new stock pen, decided that that site was the best, and that they should try and purchase the property. Accordingly Mr. Brady, the general manager of the railway, on July 2, 1912, recommended to the then Minister of Railways, the late Mr. Cochrane, that the property be purchased, and on August 12, about a month later, the property was expropriated by an Order in Council upon the recommendation of Mr. Cochrane. The matter then stood for about two years. Negotiations in the meantime were carried on between Mr. Gutelius and D. W. Ogilvie and Company, representing G. T. Davie and Sons, Levis. I understand that Mr. Gutelius offered $1.75 per foot, but that was refused. Accordingly, Mr. Gutelius appointed, as was the custom, three valuators, Jos. Gosselin, contractor, Levis, Telesphore Charland, Mayor of Lauzon, and Jos. Edouard Parent, Beaufort, to value the property.
William Stevens Fielding: What was the date of their appointment?


John Dowsley Reid: They were appointed on December 30, 1913, on the recommendation of the Postmaster General, dated December 16, 1913, to ascertain whether $1.75 per square foot was a fair and reasonable price. The result was that these arbitrators reported on February 2, 1914, giving a valuation of $3.00 per square foot. On January 30, 1914, D. W. Ogilvie and Company -withdrew the option for the lower price,-I presume that means $1.75,-and on April 4, named the price of $2.75 per square foot. Negotiations were continued with D. W. Ogilvie and Company through their solicitor, Mr. Barnard, and finally on March 15, 1915, Mr. Barnard after an interview offered to accept $69,575 in settlement, the terms being a cash payment of $9,575 with interest thereon, leaving a balance of $60,000, with interest thereon at 4 per cent from date of taking possession, payable when convenient to the Government to do so. Mr. Gutelius in the memorandum signed by him says:
Personally it was my intention to recommend the acceptance of the $1.75, and hoped that the valuators would confirm this as being fair and reasonable. When they raised the price however, to $3.00 per foot and the owners were apparently aware of this figure, it made it more difficult, so that the settlement which was finally affected was to my mind a good business proposition and less than the Exchequer Court would have awarded us, having in mind that our own valuators would endeavour to protect their valuation of $3.00 per foot before the court.

I mention these facts merely to show that Mr. Gutelius as general manager was trying to protect the interests of the railway and the Government by endeavouring to get the property at as low a price as possible, and also to show 'that Mr. Cochrane acted under the advice of his officials, and, I believe, in good faith. I am quite satisfied that if there was anything wrong in any shape or form my predecessor knew nothing whatever about it; nor, I believe, did Mr. Gutelius. On the recommendation of Mr. Cochrane the order was dated October 26, 1915, advising the acceptance of $69,575 for 38,723 feet of land. That was the official Order in Council, and from the information I have received since six o'clock I think it was the understanding that the $60,000 was not to be paid for two years, during which time 4 per cent interest was paid on that amount. The final payment was made, I think, in 1918. Of course, that payment was made after I became minister, but the matter had already been settled, so that I never heard of it until the hon. member placed the motion on the Order Paper. As I have said, however, so far as the Government is concerned, I believe that the transaction was carried out by the officials and by the minister in good faith, and if there have been commissions or anything of that kind they know nothing whatever about them. We are only too pleased to bring the papers down and have the matter thoroughly investigated from start to finish.


William Stevens Fielding: There is little I care to add to what has already been said. I am quite aware that the matter must have taken place largely before the minister entered the department, and I have no desire to cast reflections upon any one. But the facts as I have stated them, on the authority of the proceedings in the courts, show the necessity for further investigation. I want to state one or two points in reply to my hon. friend. He says that an Order in Council was passed to pay this sum for 39,000 odd feet.


John Dowsley Reid: The quantity is 38,723 feet.


William Stevens Fielding: Yes, nearly 39,000
feet. Now, Messrs. Davie, all through the latter part of the negotiations, held, and in the trial distinctly swore, that there were only 36,900 feet. There is no information yet to account for the larger quantity of nearly 39,000 feet mentioned in the deed.

There is a suggestion from Mr. Barnard that there was a manoeuvre to cover up something which he did not want covered up. My hon. friend says that an Order in Council was passed to pay $69,575; but 36,900 feet at $1.75 does not amount to that sum; it gives only $64,575. The facts seem to be that Messrs. Davie and Company offered the property at $1.25 per foot, and though there was some talk of that being a mistake, we have the sworn testimony of Mr. Barnard that it was correct, that Messrs. Davie were getting 50 cents per foot more than they themselves asked for. They were paid, not the sum of $46,125 which they were willing to take, not the $64,000 odd that would be the amount at $1.75 per foot, but the higher price of $69,575. On the surface it does appear that there was something peculiar about the management of this affair. I do not wish to press the matter further, because I admit that the information is incomplete and I would prefer that we reserve judgment until we are in possession of all the papers.	>


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Rodolphe Lemieux: For a copy of all correspondence between the Chief Justice of Ontario and any Member of the Government as to the Judges' Act of the Session of 1920.
He said: I have nothing to say about this motion except that I think it is in the public interest that this correspondence be laid on the table of the House. I understand that there has been between the Government, especially the Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty), and the Prime Minister (Mr. Meighen), and the Chief Justice of the province of Ontario, some correspondence regarding the Judges' Act as amended by the legislation of last year. When that correspondence is laid on the Table we shall be in a position to deal further with the matter.


Right Hon. C. J. DOHERTY (Minister of Justice):: I had not observed this motion on the Order Paper. I shall ascertain whether there is any correspondence of an official character that should be produced. If there is I shall be glad to table it.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Orders of the Day.


Rodolphe Lemieux: With your leave, Mr. Speaker, I understood that we would revert to some other motions.


John Dowsley Reid: I understood otherwise.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. member (Mr. Lemieux) says there was an understanding that the House would revert to certain motions that had been passed. It might be well for the Government to intimate their desire in the matter.


John Dowsley Reid: I understood that we would proceed with the Orders of the Day.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I do not wish to press the point if my hon. friend prefers to take the Orders of the Day. It was my impression, however, that we would take up motion No. 15, dealing with the question of the Chicago Drainage Canal, in which, I think, the Minister of Marine is interested.


Hon. Mr. BALLANTYNE:: I should like my hon. friend to let that motion stand; I have not had an opportunity of looking into it.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Until Monday next?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS- REDUCTION IN NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Arthur Bliss Copp: I desire to refer to a matter which has been dealt with in the public press for the last two or three days, and I should be glad to have an expression of opinion regarding it from the Minister of Railways. I refer to the reduction in the number of working men in the Canadian National shops in the city of Moncton. There is a rumour to the effect that from 600 to 800 men are to be turned out from the C.N.R. shops in that city. Is that report correct, and, if so, is the order only a matter of temporary expediency or is it to be permanent? This is of great importance to the people in that city as well as to the public generally. Will the minister be good enough to make a statement to the House?


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member was kind enough to inform me at six o'clock of his intention to bring this matter up on the Orders of the Day. I called up President Hanna at Toronto, and asked him what

the real situation was. Mr. Hanna informs me that owing to a decline in the business of the railways, they could not find work for all the employees in the shops. They therefore offered to keep on all hands and reduce work to half-time. All employees in shops west of Port Arthur accepted. Those on the Government railways as a body refused, and the management could therefore do nothing but lay off temporarily all surplus employees. Just as soon as there is work the men will again be taken on.
CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS- PRICE OFFERED FOR RAILS On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. JOHN C. DOUGLAS (South Cape Breton and Richmond): I desire to draw the attention of the Minister of Railways to a despatch which appears in the Canadian press of yesterday, as well as the newspapers published to-day, which reads as follows:
Roll Rails at Cost for C.N.R. is offer Sydney, N.S., April 9.-In a statement to the Canadian Press today, R. M. Wolvin, president of the Dominion Steel Company, stated that the company had offered to roll rails for the Canadian National Railways at actual cost, but he gave positive denial to a statement appearing in an Ottawa despatch, which reported the offering of a large rail order to the company by the Department of Railways.
In view of the importance of this matter, and the large amount of unemployment that prevails at Sydney and Glace Bay in consequence of the small amount of business being done in connection with coal and steel operations. I desire to ask the minister if he has any statement to make on the subject.


John Dowsley Reid: I noticed the article in question and I wish to make the following statement with respect to it:
The Canadian National Railways have rails for renewals and repairs for 1921. Notwithstanding this fact they have offered to take a large quantity of rails for new work. They have offered the Algoma Steel Company the same,price as paid them for rails during 1920, namely, $55 per ton, and have offered the Dominion Iron and Steel Company the same price. This price both companies have refused and are asking higher prices. As the mills have reduced the wages of employees, and rails in the United States are offered at $47 per ton, it it r.ot considered reasonable that the Government should be called upon to pay an increased price for rails for 1921.



REPORT OF DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. PETER McGIBBON (Muskoka) :: I wish to ask the Minister of Health if there 
is any report from that department, and if so when it will be laid 2before Parliament.


James Alexander Calder: If I am not mistaken the report has already been laid upon the table. If it has not I will make enquiries and see that it is laid on the table as soon as possible.



HUDSON BAY RAILWAY

[Stage Direction]
On the Order for resuming the adjourned debate on the proposed motion of Mr. Campbell, as amended:
That, in the opinion of this House, work on the Hudson Bay railway should be resumed as soon as financial conditions permit, and that the project be completed with the least possible delay.
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I understand the hon. gentleman who moved the resolution desires to reply.


Mr. J. A. CAMPBELL (Nelson) :: I was not aware that this matter was coming up to-night. However, as it has been taken up, and as the opportunity is afforded me of replying to some of the statements made during the debate which took place some days ago, I shall take advantage of the occasion to say a few words. May I say, by way of preliminary, that I was somewhat amazed-in fact I was dumbfounded -by the somewhat cold-blooded manner in which the Minister of Railways (Mr. Reid) when this matter was last brought up, showed his indifference to the pledges and promises of the Government, and of his party generally, in connection with this scheme. Surely the country has come to a sorry state when a responsible Government, such as we presumably have at the present time, can lightly wave aside the solemn pledges which they have made in connection with a matter of national importance such as the construction of the Hudson Bay railway. The only excuse, or at least the chief excuse, which was given by the minister for the absolute disregard by the Government, and by the party which supports them, of the pledges and promises made in connection with this railway, was the fact-or the alleged fact-that the financial condition of the country would not warrant a further vote of money in connection with this road at the present time. Actually, Mr. Speaker, this statement was made despite the fact that money is being spent like water in connection with all other kinds of public undertaking such as shipbuilding, the construction of dry docks, improve-

merits in harbours, the carrying out of the St. Lawrence improvement scheme and various other undertakings. We look at the Estimates this year and we find that sums ranging from two to ten millions, are being spent in various parts of Canada on public works of this nature. Nevertheless we are told that even so small a sum comparatively as $1,700,000 is not available to complete the Hudson Bay project on which $21,000,000 has been already expended.
Two members of the Liberal Opposition, the hon. member for North Waterloo (Mr. Euler) and the hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. Vien) criticised the project and quoted some evidence given in the past against the scheme. Now, as I have already pointed out, the evidence which they cited is not new; it has been produced in the House from time to time on previous occasions and it has been answered. As the result of various commissions and investigations held from time to time, the Government of Sir Wilfrid Laurier started the building of this road and intended to carry it to completion but were not allowed to do so. As a result of the elections of 1911 another Government stepped in and went on with the work after further investigation was made. I intimated to the House when this question was last before it that I did not wish to take up the time of the House in giving details as to the evidence in connection with this matter. That evidence is very extensive, in fact, it consists of volumes, and I do not propose to-night to go into it. I would simply refer the two gentlemen in question to the statements of Sir Wilfrid Laurier and his Government and I ask them if they repudiate the action of Sir Wilfrid and his Government in 1910 when they began the construction of this railway after having thoroughly investigated the project. I have the same question to ask of hon. gentlemen supporting the Government. Do they repudiate the statements made by Sir Charles Tupper, by the former Prime Minister (Sir Robert Borden); by the present Prime Minister, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and others-statements which I quoted in the few remarks I made the other day and which were emphatically in favour of the scheme? I ask hon. gentlemen opposite if they repudiate the statements made by these gentlemen and by the governments which they represented.
The hon. member for North Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) during the previous debate told a very gruesome story of the horrible things he had done at various times in the past,
and declared that he was not now playing politics. I would like to ask my hon. friend who is playing politics at the present time? Are those who are asking to have the Government's promises carried out playing politics, or is it those, who propose to set aside one scheme which has been promised, undertaken and nearly completed in order to carry out another scheme which was only put forward in order to win a by-election? I ask him who is playing politics when the Hudson Bay Railway project is set aside, after so much money has been spent on it, in order to construct a dry dock at Esquimalt to fulfil a pledge that was made in order to win a by-election at Victoria not so very long ago? It looks to me as though hon. gentlemen opposite are carrying on the same programme as that which my hon. friend from Oxford declared he had been supporting in the past, although he is now repentant. I would like to ask my hon. friend if he thinks the Estimates in connection with the construction of dry docks, canal improvements, and other matters that are on the Government's programme at the present time, indicate a sincere desire for economy? I propose, Mr. Speaker, when the time comes to bring these questions definitely before the House to ascertain whether the House correctly appreciates the situation- whether we are simply going to have economy in one particular and not in all? If we are going to have economy-something which I very much desire to see brought about as a matter of public policy, then it should be applied everywhere and not simply applied in one particular part of the country.
The hon. member for North Oxford also indulged in certain remarks about something that somebody had told him as to the great amount of dredging that had to be done at Port Nelson. As a matter of fact if the hon. member had cared to obtain reliable information about that particular subject, he could have gone to the Department of Railways and the chief engineer would have told him definitely what the situation was as far as dredging is concerned. He repeated a story that some one had told him, but I may tell him that it will be emphatically denied if he goes to the proper quarter for information. But this hon. gentleman as well as other hon. members have brought down here a lot of hearsay evidence and retailed it as arguments against a scheme which has been thoroughly investigated and pronounced sound and feasible, and the feasibility and practica-

bility of which is not an issue at the present time.
It would seem from the statements made by certain gentlemen that in the case of the Hudson Bay project they contend that this should be a ready-made route. There never was such a situation existing in the Dominion before. The St. Lawrence was not a ready-made route. I have a vivid recollection of taking passage in the steamship Victorian, I think it was fifteen years or so ago and when we were only a few hours' out from Montreal about nine o'clock one morning we ran aground this side of Quebec, and the passengers had to be taken off in small boats and landed at Quebec. In my own case I lost so much time that I had to abandon the voyage. I was told that the Victorian remained aground for some months. If anything like that had happened on the Hudson Bay route the hon. gentleman would have used the incident to condemn the project; yet millions of dollars have been spent on the St. Lawrence route, and although it is not perhaps quite as satisfactory as it should be, we are not condemning the route. But if half as much money were spent on the Hudson Bay route I have no doubt that it would be a certain success. Regarding my hon. friend from Battleford-


Mr. LONG:: North Battleford.


John Archibald Campbell: Regarding my hon.
friend from North Battleford, notwithstanding the rather critical tone of his remarks, I think that, generally speaking, I am considerably in accord with the statements made by him. I might interpolate here that in any remarks which I made I was not in any way casting aspersions on my hon. friend. I believe he has honestly investigated this proposition-something that certain other hon. members have not done-but cannot see his way clear to advocate continuance of the project at the present time. He read an article from the Grain Growers' Guide-I have not got it here as I did not know this matter was coming up to-night-written by some one who had been to the Bay, criticizing severely the character of the work that had been done.
9 p.m. I am fully in accord with that criticism, because the scheme appears to have been muddled from start to finish, and to have been so handled, as some think, in order to show that the project will not work out successfully. Although I agree with him that certain of the work already done has been unsatisfactory, owing

perhaps to insufficient investigation in some respects, still I disagree with him in his opinion that the work can well be stopped altogether at the present time until the matter is thoroughly investigated. I say that certain work should go on, and that as to other work for instance, such as that in connection with the terminals, further investigation might.be made.
I made a proposition to the right hon. Prime Minister a short time ago which I think covers the ground. The dump or grade is completed to the bay. I suggested that the rails be laid from the present end of steel for a distance of about forty miles, which would bring the line to the head of navigation on the river. The Government own and operate a stern wheel river steamer at Port Nelson, and if my suggestion were adopted the railway would connect with the steamer and thus complete connection with the bay. The cost would not be excessive, and by this means men and material could be brought into the bay for any investigation or work that may be necessary there. I am told that as soon as connection is made with the bay, commercial fishing will be indulged in. I was also told by a prominent official of the Marine and Fisheries Department that it was the intention of the department-the hon. minister can correct me if I am mistaken-as soon as the railway is completed to the bay to put on one or more steam trawlers for the purpose of investigating the fisheries. I was informed that the department had this in view before the war broke out, but the war forced them to abandon this proposal and it was then decided to allow it to remain in abeyance until connection is made with the bay by means of the railway or otherwise. I received a letter a few days ago from a gentleman interested in iron properties on the east shore of Hudson bay-he is only one of a number who are so interested. He had told me some years ago that he and his colleagues were waiting until the railway was completed in order that they might start work on their properties. Now he wants to know what the prospects are for getting in this year. If this connection could be effected now a great deal of work of an exploratory nature would be undertaken, which will add to the regular traffic resulting from the building of the road.
Now a few words in conclusion with reference to statements made by the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals. He stated that the road did not pay. Of course it does not pay. Does anybody in this House

know of any public undertaking with which the hon. minister is concerned that does pay? The day after the debate on this matter recently he read a statement regarding the Canadian National railways, and if ever there was a proposition that did not pay we had a glaring example there. I could name a number of other undertakings with which he is connected that do not pay; for instance, thei Welland canal and the Trent canal in which he takes a great deal of personal interest. As far as the Hudson Bay railway is concerned, it was never intended to pay as a local proposition. The idea was to connect the wheat-fields of the prairies with the Bay, and local traffic was not in the minds of those who undertook the enterprise. But we find a situation has developed in the meantime which shows that the country through which this railway passes is not the wilderness we thought it was, and that there are resources there which, if properly handled, will produce a great deal of local traffic, and it is within the bounds of probability that when the road is completed the local traffic itself will form a substantial part of the operating surplus. The line was to be constructed to Port Nelson and the work was proceeded with at great speed during the war, but when peace came that work was stopped. The road is about two-thirds built, and when operations ceased the road was left practically in a field. It is being operated-not for the 332 miles on which steel, is laid, but only for about 214 miles. It does not go any place in particular, indeed, as I have said, it practically stops nowhere. How could any road under such circumstances be expected to pay? Yet my hon. friend says that because it does not pay we are going to stop work, and go ahead and spend millions and millions of dollars on other public works that we do not expect to get any revenue from whatever.
This matter was brought before certain members of the Cabinet on one occasion by a delegation of members of this House and the statement was then made by one of the ministers that we had to economize, and so far as he was concerned no public works were going to be built that year, although a number of places wished to have public works proceeded with just as the West wished to have the Hudson bay railway completed. I asked him if he had any public works under way, such as post offices or similar buildings which had been left partly constructed without any roof on, and which he proposed to leave in that
way until financial conditions should improve. He said there was no instance of that kind. That would have been an instance analagous to the conditions existing in respect to the Hudson bay railway at the present time.
I might say here, Mr. Speaker-and I have said it before-that if this were a one word of its immediate construction. I would not prefer one request to have the work commenced. Further, if the Hudson Bay railway had been completed for a distance of only one hundred miles or thereabouts, you would not hear one word from me by way of request for an extension of the line at this time. But neither of these conditions applies to the Hudson Bay railway project. The roadbed is practically completed to the bay; the rails are laid three-quarters of the way, about one-half the line is operated, and only a comparatively small expenditure and an inconsiderable amount of work is required in order to put the road in such condition that connection can be made between The Pas and the Bay. In view of these facts, and in order to protect the money that we have invested in the enterprise and to make something out of it; in order to make it a business proposition in a real sense, it is urged that certain work in the way of construction be gone on with.
The Minister of Railways intimated that all expenditure made on railway account was needed for the building of branch lines in the West, and he said that I had appeared before him on several occasions in connection with the building of those branch lines. He speaks very truly; I am as much interested in the building of branch lines in connection with the Canadian National Railway system, as I am in the Hudson Bay railway. But the fact is that the money is not being used for the building of these branch lines in the West. The 1919 programme so far as the building of branch lines is concerned has not yet been carried out. When the minister puts as an alternative to the building of the Hudson Bay railway the completion of these branch lines, he merely attempts to pull wool over our eyes, because, as I say, the branch lines programme is not being carried out. At different times delegations from the West have asked for the construction not only of the Hudson Bay railway but of certain branch lines. The minister has said: We cannot build both; will you take the branch lines or will you take the Hud-

son Bay railway? That is a very unfair proposal? I remember that this question was put specifically to a large delegation from the Melfort district in Saskatchewan, and the reply was: Go ahead with the construction of the Hudson Bay railway if you cannot give us both. It was stated in the resolution on this subject signed by western members that the construction of necessary branch lines should be carried on in addition to the construction of the Hudson Bay railway; that the one should he done and the other not left undone. The question of terminals has been raised. The proposal which I have made is such as would allow for the making of further investigation so far as terminals are concerned. There is a feeling throughout the country, right or wrongly, that the proper terminal has not been chosen. I have been careful to avoid the issue with respect to terminals; I am not prepared to state conclusively whether the proper terminal has been chosen or not. I am not an engineer, though I have my own opinion in the matter, as I have been to both Churchill and Nelson. It is possible that the engineers can make a satisfactory terminal at Nelson; I am not here to say. But apparently there is a feeling that sufficient investigation was not made before the decision with respect to the terminal was arrived at; that a sufficiently careful inquiry was not carried out by experts. My suggestion therefore, as previously outlined, is that the road be completed to the head of navigation on the Nelson, and if there is any doubt in the mind of the Government-and they have not expressed any -with regard to the question whether a proper terminal has been chosen, let the matter be thoroughly investigated by competent harbour experts. If it is then deemed advisable that a change should be made, it can be made without the necessity for any extra work, because the turn would have to be made at a point beyond the end of the construction which I now suggest. I wish in conclusion, Mr. Speaker, to emphasize the fact that the West is paying for this road, not the East, and not Canada as a whole. Preemptions and purchased homesteads have been set aside in the West for the purpose of realizing money in order to build this railway- As I have said, approximately $28,000,000 worth of these lands have already been sold-at least, had been sold up to a year ago; the amount is probably greater by this time. What is the Government doing with this money? It 
is ear-marked, I am told-and this came out in debates in this House-for the construction of the Hudson Bay railway, but instead of going on with the work for which this money was provided the Government have decided to let it stand for the time being, and they do not say how long it will be before the work is resumed.
I contend, therefore, that the case against the completion of the work to the point suggested has not been made out. The question of economy does not enter into the matter. If the Government were carrying out a programme of economy throughout the whole country, not a word would be said by the West so far as the construction of this road is concerned. But when money is being spent lavishly upon other enterprises that do not involve the production of revenue, surely the West is being differentiated against, it is being sacrificed, for interests which appear, for reasons which we can surmise to have a more powerful pressure. Now, I do not know whether it is in order at this stage to withdraw the resolution, owing to the amendment which has been made. But the resolution as amended, is of no benefit, and there would not seem to be any advantage in asking for a vote on it. If I am in order, therefore, I would ask leave to withdraw the resolution.
Motion withdrawn.



EXCESSIVE OR INADEQUAE PUNISHMENTS

[Stage Direction]
On the Order for the second reading of Bill No. 18 to amend the Criminal Code so as to provide for the revision of excessive or inadequate punishments.-Mr. Tweedie.
Charles Joseph Doherty: There is much to be said in support of this Bill, but it touches directly the Department of Justice, and it does seem proper that we should make inquiries of judges who will be called upon to operate under the proposed provision and of the attorneys general of the different provinces who are responsible for the administration of the criminal law, as to their view concerning the effect of this legislation on the proper administration of justice from the point of view of criminal law. We have instituted this inquiry. We have not yet received replies from all the sources to which we addressed ourselves, and as it is desirable that we should have an answer to this question before coming to a final conclusion with regard to the adoption

of the measure, I suggest to the hon. gentleman who is responsible for the Bill that if he will let it stand for the present I shall endeavour to expedite the obtaining of this information.


Mr. TWEEDIE:: That will be satisfactory to me. I simply wish to point out that this Bill has been passed by the Senate in three successive years; unfortunately in other years we have not been able to get it before the House. On the assurance of the Minister of Justice that the matter will be brought before the House during this session I shall be very glad to let the Bill stand until he obtains the information to which he refers.


Mr. BUTTS:: May I ask the minister if he would consider the matter of doing away with that part of the Criminal Code which gives power to judges to suspend sentences?


Georges Henri Boivin: I fear that the question asked by the hon. member (Mr. Butts) is not in order at this time. The hon. member in charge of the Bill has consented that the order stand; therefore no discussion is permissible at this stage. I am sure that the Minister of Justice will, when his Estimates are under consideration, or on some other convenient occasion, answer the question put by the hon. member.
Order stands.



THE HOUSING PROBLEM


[Stage Direction]
On the Order for resuming the adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of Mr. Hocken, as amended.
That, in the opinion of this House, the general [DOT] interest of the people of Canada will he served by making it possible for every industrious, frugal and thrifty citizen to become the owner in fee simple of a house and lot; that the Government of Canada should grant assistance to make that possible; and to that end, an annual appropriation should be made to buy land and build houses for men. of good character who can make a small initial payment and undertake to liquidate the indebtedness incurred by monthly instalments as may be agreed upon; that a Federal Housing Board be appointed to carry out the plan which, for the first year-or such longer period as in the opinion of the Governor General in Council may be desirable- shall be confined to men who have served overseas.	-
Horatio Clarence Hocken: I would like to withdraw this resolution.


Georges Henri Boivin: Is it the
pleasure of the House that the hon. gentleman have leave to withdraw the resolution?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.
Resolution withdrawn.



FUEL SUPPLY PROBLEM

[Stage Direction]
On the Order for resuming the adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of Mr. Steele.
That, in the opinion of this House, the future fuel supply of Canada should be considered by Parliament, and that a Special Committee of the House of Commons should be forthwith appointed to inquire into all matters pertaining thereto, with power to send for persons, papers and records, to examine witnesses under oath and to report from time to time.
['3005-4040\tVolume V:\t4041-4580']
Georges Henri Boivin: The committee called for by this resolution having been appointed, I would ask if it is the pleasure of the House that the hon. gentleman have leave to withdraw the resolution.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.
Resolution withdrawn.



[Stage Direction]
On motion of Mr. D. A. Lafortune (Jacques Cartier), Bill no. 52, to amend the Criminal Code, was read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
On section 1-penalty.
Charles Joseph Doherty: I would like to make
a suggestion to the hon. member. I am fully in accord with the purpose of the Bill that he has introduced, so fully in accord that, in a Bill that is in course of preparation, making a number of amendments to the Criminal Code, there is included this particular provision. Under those circumstances it would probably be more desirable that this amendment should appear in the Bill amending the Criminal Code, rather than that we should have a separate Bill for this purpose. I have no objection to the hon. member's Bill passing, should he prefer having it pass in that way; but I make the suggestion that, having advanced the Bill this stage, he might let it remain in committee, and I will have it disposed of in another manner.


Rodolphe Lemieux: In the meantime, the
hon. member might explain the nature of the amendment.


Mr. LAFORTUNE:: I am quite satisfied with what the minister says, and I


Charles Joseph Doherty: Under those circumstances, I would move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.
Progress reported.


IMMIGRATION ACT AMENDMENT
[Stage Direction]
On the order for the second reading of Bill No. 56 to amend the Immigration Act (Deportation of undesirable persons):
Mr. LAPOINTE:: The hon. minister of Immigration and Colonization (Mr. Calder) has told me that he proposes to incorporate the provisions of this Bill in another Bill which the Government intend to introduce at this session. Under the circumstances I shall not therefore press the second reading of this Bill. I would ask that it be allowed to stand.


James Alexander Calder: I intimated to the hon. member for Quebec East (Mr. Lapointe) the other day that it was the intention of the Government to introduce in the House of Commons the Bill that was defeated in the Senate last year. As a matter of fact, a Bill is now in course of preparation amending the immigration law in a number of respects. It is almost completed, and I expect to give notice of it on the Order Paper in a day or two. I thought it would be well to have all the amendments embodied in one Bill.
Order stands.

The House again in Committee of Supply, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Public Works-chargeable to capital-Marine Department-Government shipbuilding programme-Amount required for the contraction of vessels in accordance with Government programme, $8,330,000.


Georges Henri Boivin: This item was before the committee for discussion on Thursday last during the entire afternoon and evening. Shall the item cary?


Mr. SINCLAIR (Antigonish and Guys-borough) :: Dealing with this subject
when it was before the House last week, I pointed out that the minister's statement this year was decidedly different in tone from his statement last year. Then my hon. friend was bold and aggressive. He put all the big strawberries on the top of the basket, but this year he is apologetic and gives a number of reasons why he embarked on this policy. He has evidently begun to realize that in the present financial condition of the country

an expenditure of $70,000,000 which is considered by the ordinary man on the street to have been wasteful and unnecessary, is a very heavy responsibility, and I am very glad to know that he is showing signs of repentance. The minister gave some reasons why we on this side of the House according to his view, have no right to criticize his programme. He said, among other things, that we made no effort to stop him when he was asking for these large votes for this purpose in former years. I think that is true with respect to the vote that he obtained at the inception of the shipbuilding programme in 1918. At that time, in the session of 1917-1918, the war was on, and as everybody knows, ships were being sunk by the submarines. Furthermore, hon. gentlemen on this side of the House were not then acquainted with the facts in regard to the operations of the Imperial Munitions Board. I endeavoured all through the war to keep track of what was going on in the shipping business, but I did not know that in so many of the shipyards in this country ships were being constructed at that time for the Imperial Munitions Board. You are aware, Sir, that the censor was busy at that time and that any news relating to the construction and launching of ships was suppressed. I might say that if I had known in 1918, when my hon. friend came forward and asked for a vote to build these tramp vessels, as a Government venture, that the yards of Canada were all busy building ships for the Munitions Board, on the account of the admiralty, I should have had a great deal of hesitation in allowing him to go forward with his programme without a protest. I took care to enter my protest as soon as the facts were disclosed. The ships built by the Munitions Board were just as good, for the purposes of the war, as the ships built by the Government of Canada. When those ships were finished they were turned over to the British Admiralty, just the same as the ships built by the Canadian Government would also be turned over to the British Government for use in the war. So one ship was just as much use as the other so far as the war was concerned. It was at that stage that my hon. friend stepped in, I think unnecessarily, and asked for the expenditure of what has now grown to be a very large sum of money in connection with this venture.
I also pointed out that it would have been very easy for my hon. friend to retire from this shipbuilding programme at the close of the war. When the war ended,
on November 11,	1918, there were
actually only four keels laid. I have a table here published by the Canada Railway and Marine World which, I believe is a reliable publication, showing the dates. I have no doubt that its information is official, but if there is anything wrong my hon. friend can put me right. The names of the vessels for which keels had been laid were the Voyageur, June 11, 1918, the Pioneer, July 17, 1918, the Warrior, July 17, 1918, the Volunteer, October 1, 1918. None of these ships were launched prior to November 11, 1918, so all that my hon. friend had to do if he wished to discontinue his programme, was to settle with the parties with whom he had made contracts and had not commenced to build, and he could have gone on and finished the four vessels whose keels had been laid. That would have involved a very small outlay comparatively speaking, but my hon. friend did not choose to do that. He went on with his programme, and has attempted to justify it on different occasions since on various grounds. In my former remarks, I challenged the statement of my hon. friend that these ships are necessary in connection with our railway systems. They are only freight vessels. Their speed is about 11 knots, or under. If my hon. friend was projecting a line of fast steamers, and if the country could afford to put the money into them, to connect with our railway system and take passengers across the Atlantic or across the Pacific, that is an enterprise that has often been mentioned in this House and has been favoured by both sides. Of course, it would cost a great deal of money; but that is not what my hon. friend is doing. He is building tramp vessels to compete with private owners. I pointed out to him that the sea is covered with such vessels at the present time. It is estimated that there is now afloat something like 50,000,000 tons of shipping. At the time the war broke out there was only about 40,000,000 tons, so that there is now some 10,000,000 tons more than there was at that time, while trade has decreased enormously since the close of the war. It is therefore easy to see how difficult it will be to make money with freight vessels for some years to come, the shipbuilding programme throughout the world having been overdone. It was unnecessary for my hon. friend to go on with his programme in view of the fact that the war was over, and that he was only building freight vessels that had to compete with ships

built prior to the war for about a quarter of the sum he paid.
I pointed out to my hon. friend that on the Clyde and in other British and European ports, prior to 1914, ships of the same kind as he is building were being built at about $50 per ton deadweight. He admits that the average cost of the vessels he is building is about $192 per ton deadweight, almost four times as much. In these hard times with low freight rates the minister has to compete with vessels that were built at about one-quarter the cost of those he is operating. I have already pointed out that the venture cannot be called a war measure; nor was it necessary, so far as our railway systems are concerned. If there is any freight at all delivered at the coast by our railways, it is easy to find a ship to carry it forward to destination. All that need be done by the owner of the freight or produce is to employ a broker in the big markets of London and New York, and he will find that he can send produce across the ocean at a lower rate than the minister can run his ships and carry it himself. So that government operation of ships is not economic, at the present time at all events, in connection with our railways. The other question was regarding our export trade. I pointed out to my hon. friend that he had not been able to show that he had done anything in the way of expanding our export trade through these vessels. At any rate, our export trade has been going the wrong way ever since these vessels have been operating. I showed that while in 1919 we had a balance of trade in our favour of $150,000,000, in 1920 we had an adverse balance of $150,000,000; so that the balance of trade went the wrong way during the past year to the extent of at least $300,000,000.
But the main difficulty is that these ships must be losing money; they did not pay their way last year. While my hon. friend shows a small earning; he made no proper allowance for depreciation and for the interest on the money that he put into these ships. If he cannot pay at least 5 per cent for depreciation and 5i per cent for interest on the money-for that is what he is paying for it to the public-if he cannot pay 101 per cent on capital, then he is losing money and will end in bankruptcy. Now, he has not done that within four or five million dollars. I have shown you, making the calculation on the capital which my hon. friend says he has put into this venture, that he has come out the wrong

way to the tune of $4,343,619 for the last year. That is not a very good showing. Let me point out, not for the purpose of making the story worse than it is, but in order that we may arrive at the facts, that freights are not nearly as profitable this year as they were last year; in some trades there is not more than 50 per cent this year of last year's output. So that we can easily see that if my hon. friend lost over four million dollars last year he stands to lose a very much larger sum this year. In the face of that we are still going on with the building of ships, knowing that when we get through with them, they will not be worth anything like the money we are paying for them. If I am correct in the statement that in the market they are not worth to-day more than 25 per cent of the amount they cost, the ships we are building now, and for which we propose to vote this money to-night, will be worth, when they are finished, only one-qmarter of what is spent on them; the other three-quarters will virtually have been thrown over the bridge.
According to the statement given to the House a few days ago by the ministers which will be found at page 1331 of Hansard, there are no fewer than sixteen ships now in course of construction. The minister puts the deadweight tonnage of these ships at 114,470 tons, and the average price at $192 per ton. To complete these sixteen vessels will cost the country, according to that statement, $21,978,240. If it be true that these sixteen vessels now being constructed will be worth only 25 per cent of cost when they are finished, we shall, by finishing them, sustain a loss of $16,483,180. That is a very serious matter. We have not the information as to how far this work has been proceeded with. It may be that it is not possible for my hon. friend to stop at the present time. I do not know whether any of these are new contracts or not; that information has not been given to the House. It would be interesting to know what state these contracts are in. I am assuming now that all the money which the minister is asking for is to complete contracts that have already been entered into. I pointed out the other night that, looking over the list of routes on which the minister proposes to put his ships this year, I find that no fewer than three of them are subsidized routes, routes on which the Government are subsidizing ships to compete with those which they purpose operating. That is unbusinesslike. For

example, under the minister's programme, we are going to run a line of ships from Vancouver, through the Pacific ocean, to New Zealand and Australia. We have a line of ships running now from Vancouver to New Zealand and Australia, and we are subsidizing those ships to the tune of $130,000 for the present year, in fact the money was voted a few days ago. But if it be correct-and I think it is- that they call at the same ports-undoubtedly they do in some instances;-then we are giving our competitor an advantage to the extent of $130,000 and that competitor already has the trade. The company that is running the present line has been conducting that service for a number of years. It has worked up business connections and knows all the details. It has fast vessels-better vessels than ours; vessels, according to the blue book which I have on my desk, that run at the rate of sixteen and seventeen knots an hour, while ours only make about eleven knots. These vessels are competing with us for the small trade between Vancouver and those far off ports in Australia and New Zealand. Looking over the returns of the Department of Trade and Commerce I find that the whole trade of last year was very small, that the whole business done between these points would not furnish one cargo for the five large vessels that my hon. friend is proposing to put on the route. I would like to know where he expects to get business for these vessels during the year 1921, remembering all the time that our competitors are on the route and that they have the business at the present time? My hon. friend may have some plan that I do not understand, but it looks to me as if he would be burning expensive coal in sending these vessels on a 6,000 mile trip across the Pacific ocean with very little in them.
In the discussion the other evening my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) dealt with the question of the dry dock at Halifax. This is a question, I think, that is not properly discussable in connection with this shipping venture, but I want to point out, seeing that my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre dealt with it, that he has not studied the question suifi-ciently. He' said that the company that formerly owned the Halifax graving dock had not appealed from the decision of the Exchequer Court and consequently had no right to complain about the amount that was awarded. I understand that is
not the question about wihch they are making complaint. What happened was this: The company were carrying on business in Halifax as a graving dock company for a number of years. Most of the money invested in the enterprise was British capital. It had been invested in this dock a good many years ago, and subsidies were also paid the company. A new company, called the Halifax Shipbuilding Company was started, and what the Government did was to expropriate the property belonging to the old company and hand it over to the new company who have it now,-at least the Halifax Shipyards, Limited have a lease of the dock. The dock was taken from the original company. The Government stepped in and expropriated the property, took it from the old company and gave it to the new concern, without a justification for doing so. That is the camplaint, as I understand it and it is for the Government to explain why they pursued such an arbitrary course.
That, according to my information, is the complaint that has been made by the Halifax Graving Dock Company.
Now considerable has been said in this discussion about the refusal of the Government to give information, not only about the operation of its vessels, but also in regard to the operation of the national railways. The Opposition have repeatedly demanded information, which information has been refused. It should not be necessary for me to undertake to prove the statement, for every member of the House must know it to be the case. I was surprised to hear, however, the Minister of Finance, and also the Minister of Railways, state in the discussion that took place the other day that ample information had been given to the members on this side, and that the. questions the Government refused to answer were trifling questions relating to the salary of a station master or something of that kind. I submit that the questions asked by gentlemen on this side were not trifling questions, but that at the last two sessions of Parliament both the Minister of Marine and the Minister of Railways have constantly refused to answer the most vital and important questions that were submitted to them. Let me give one or two examples. Last session a supporter of the Government, the senior member for South Cape Breton (Mr. Douglas) desired to get some information in regard to the purchase of coal for the use of the Government ships and he asked these questions:

What quantity of coal was consumed by the Canadians Government Merchant Marine in the year 1919? How much of same was Canadian and how much American?
He also asked:
Was this coal purchased by tender and what was the price paid?
Now these were very simple and yet important questions, but the answer the Government gave its own supporter was this:
The Government has no information. These transactions were carried on by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine as an incorporated Company.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I question the truth of the statement that the Government had no information as to the prices they were paying for coal, and that they had no information as to whether the coal had been purchased by tender or not-I simply do not believe it. We expect to get correct information from ministers of the Crown when plain questions of that kind are ask-gd in this House. I submit that there can be no good reason why such questions should not be answered. The transaction was completed, it was not for the year that was to come, it was not even for the current year-it had reference to the year 1919. I can understand that when negotiations are going on, and tenders are being invited, it would not be proper to disclose such matters; but after the transaction is over, after the coal has been purchased and has been burned, and during the following year a member of Parliament asked "What did you pay for your coal?" there should be no secret about it. Our competitor could not get any information from the answers to the questions, unless it was that the Canadian Government were buying coal at better prices than they were themselves, or at a higher rate. In any case these questions should have been answered.
It could not do any possible harm to disclose that kind of information, although the Government has persistently refused to furnish it. About the time this question was asked it was reported in the Halifax papers that the Government had one of their ships there for which they had not provided a cargo and therefore found it necessary to purchase a cargo of coal for the river Plate in order to give the ship something to do, and it was said they purchased about 8,000 tons at a dollar a ton above the market price. Whether that statement be true or not, you can understand, Mr. Chairman, how it makes the public suspicious when the department

refuses to answer such simple and proper questions.
On Thursday of last week I endeavoured to get some information myself with regard to a certain ship called the " Beaver " that had cleared from Halifax for Barbadoes. I asked this question:
How many passengers did this vessel carry on the said trip?
The answer was:
The department has no information.
I also asked:
What is her deadweight tonnage and how many tons of freight did she carry from Halifax on said trip?
The answer was:
The deadweight tonnage of the vessel is 3,972 J tons. The department has no information as to the quantity of freight carried on the voyage referred to.
The department went to the trouble of telling me what the tonnage of the ship was, but they had no information as to the quantity of freight that ship was carrying. That was the very thing I wanted to find out, because I was told the ship sailed from Halifax with so little freight that it was not possible for her to pay her way.
Another example. Last year we were informed that a ship by the name of the "Recruit" was stranded in the St. Lawrence river, and we were assured that the Government would not lose any money because the ship was well insured. I was glad to hear that at the time, and I took occasion during the present session to find out whether the Government really did come out of that transaction without a loss. I put this question on the Order Paper:
Was the steamship Recruit of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine that went aground at Vache Point, St. Lawrence river, rescued and refitted for sea?
That was answered in the affirmative. I also asked:
If so, how much was expended in repairs? and how much was collected from insurance companies?
This is the answer:
The information asked for is information as to operating details under the Canadian National Railway Board, and is not in possession of the Government.
I submit, Mr. Chairman, that the question as to whether we collected that insurance was a question which there was no reasonable ground for refusing to answer.

186S
In another case I find this question asked by the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) :
What are the names of the steamers of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine which entered at the port of Montreal since May, 191S?
That question is answered and the names are given of a large number of steamers. The next question reads:
What are the names of the steamers of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine on which -work was performed by the Hall Engineering Company, of Montreal?
This is the answer:
Information in so far as work performed on Government steamers, no reports are filed at Ottawa as these are matters in connection with operation and under the Board of Management of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine who are responsible for all matters in connection with operation.
My hon. friend has led us to believe on various occasions that he would give us information about construction, but not about operation. These two questions I have quoted are both questions relating to operation. And I would like my hon. friend to explain why he was able to give us the facts in connection with the first question, but was not able to give us the
10 p.m. names of the ships that were repaired by the Hall Engineering Company. I could multiply instances of such refusals, but I will not detain the committee because every hon. member knows that the pages of Hansard are covered with such questions regarding railways and ships where the information desired was persistently refused.
I would like to give a sample of the management of these vessels as disclosed in the answer to a question by my hon. friend from Westmoreland a few days ago. It appears that one of the government steamers by the name of the Laurentian was repaired in the port of St. John. The question is this:
Is the steamship Laurentian owned by the Government?
The answer is: yes.
If so, when was she purchased, from whom and what price was paid?-A. The Laurentian was purchased in April, 1917, from the Canada Steamship Lines, Limited, for $50,000.
Q. Wais said steamer out of repair and tied up at St. John for five months or for any time? If so, for what length of time?-A. Yes, four months.
Q. During the time said steamer was so tied up in St. John, how many of the crew remained aboard?-A. Twenty-two.
This answer goes on to say that the wages of these 22 sailors were paid by the Government during the four or five months that the ship was under repair. That is an extraordinary thing for the department to do. A private owner would never think of doing it. As soon as the ship of a private owner comes into port he discharges his crew and pays them off. He hires another crew when ready to send his ship out again. He does not keep his men on board feeding them and paying them wages for four or five months, but that seems to be the way in which at least one of these government vessels was handled by the department. To'my mind that is a very unbusinesslike proceeding and requires some explanation. In the minister's statement of the other day, I find the following:
There is a further consideration from which as the minister primarily responsible for the programme I derive some comfort, and that is that every contract made, every voucher paid, every letter and telegram exchanged between the department aqd contractors is open for the fullest inspection of any member of the House who desires any further information.
My hon. friend has not produced these papers; he has not given us the pleasure of seeing them. I am glad to hear that they are open for inspection. I am also glad to hear that he derives comfort from anything in connection 'with his programme. I did not think there was very much comfort for anybody else in conection with it; I am quite satisfied there is no comfort in it for the people of this country. It may be quite true that the minister has the vouchers somewhere. But the question is; where is the money? Are we ever going to see it again? I submit it is rather cold comfort to realize that we are spending $70,000,000 on this venture and that there is no prospect of our ever seeing our money again.
Attempts have been made not only by the minister but by other hon. gentlemen on that side to throw responsibility upon the shoulders of hon. gentlemen on this side for the enormous present and prospective losses in conection with the railways as well as with shipping. A few days ago in the course of the railway discussion the hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Cockshutt) used this language:
Why are we in this country staggering like weary Titans under this burden? It is because my hon. friend and the hon. gentlemen who led him at that time were in a government that launched railway schemes upon the country fifty years in advance of their time.
My hon. friend from Brantford seems to have forgotten some very recent history in

which he himself figured. I would like to ask him who it was that forced the Canadian Northern railway upon the people of this country by closure? Did we not resist that transaction to the utmost? Did he and his party not enforce the closure rule to put that measure through? Did he not speak and vote in favour of it? The hon. member for Brantford has a very heavy responsibility to answer for in this matter. He has the reputation of being a business man, and I have no doubt that his word goes for much in the councils of his party. He assured the House at the time this matter was up that within from three to five years this project would be a paying venture.' I do not think he would give us that assurance to-day, but he was willing at that time to place an additional burden of from four to five hundred millions on the shoulders of the people in order to take over the Canadian Northern system. Then again, what about the Grand Trunk deal? Who is responsible for the additional four or five hundred millions of dollars of liabilities involved in the purchase of that system? Are members on this side responsible for that? We voted against it; my hon. friend from Brantford and the hon. gentlemen who sit with him voted for it. We were assured that that was going to get us out of our difficulties; that the acquisition of the Grand Trunk would help us in regard to the other lame ducks that the Government had taken over. But it has not turned out that way. If you look at the Estimates you will find that the railway system that requires the largest sum for the current year is the Grand Trunk-something like $89,000,000. In that estimate, I believe, is included the fixed charges on the Grand Trunk Pacific, which, according to the Public Accounts, appear to be a little over $8,000,000. So that if you choose to make us responsible for the Grand Trunk Pacific and take off that $8,000,000, there is still $80,000,000 required for the current year to operate the Grand Trunk system. So the men who insisted on taking over the Grand Trunk have very heavy responsibilities to answer for before the people of this country. We do not know how much of the eight millions is deficit; the estimate does not disclose the fact. It bunches the whole thing together -improvements, betterments, and deficit are lumped in one sum and we are asked to vote the enormous amount of $89,000,000 en bloc to keep the Grand Trunk running for the current year. I submit that my hon. friend should not have blamed us for all these difficulties of which he himself is

guilty. It would be better for that weary Titan from Brantford to manifest a spirit of repentance and to show some contrition for his own mistakes instead of throwing railing accusations at the heads of hon. gentlemen on this side of the House. But everybody knows that the Government is responsible for our financial condition both in railways and in connection with merchant ships. They cannot escape the responsibility. Parliament has little responsibility regarding our shipping debt because Parliament had nothing to say with reference to these ship contracts; Parliament was not given an opportunity to discuss them. Hon. gentlemen will remember that at the time of the armistice, November 11, 1918, there were only four keels laid in the ship-building programme, and not a single ship had been launched; but before Parliament met the following February the minister by Order in Council entered into eighteen contracts without competition and without tender. Now can anybody say that members on either side are responsible for these transactions. They were carried out by Order in Council behind closed doors, without Parliament being informed and without our knowing anything whatever about them. Questions were asked when the minister's Estimates came on, and then we discovered that in the interim my hon. friend had entered into these new contracts involving an expenditure of many millions. The trouble is that the war spirit seems to be rampant on the part of the Government. Although the war has been over for two and a half years the Government are carrying on as if the war were still in progress. You know, Mr. Chairman, that description in the New Testament of the Roman centurion who had men under him, and who said: "I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it." That is the spirit that seems to pervade the Cabinet. It is the military spirit, the war spirit, and I submit is the reason why members of Parliament were not consulted about these shipping contracts and large expenditures and are not even now consulted. We are told that sixteen ships are in course of construction; but we do not know what stage they are in, nor whether it will be possible to save any of this money or not. We know that if we build a ship to-day for $2,000,000 and launch it tomorrow, she is worth when launched only $500,000; we know that we have thrown away $1,500,000 in the operation. Any shipping man who knows anything about

the shipping business knows that to be the fact. Is it not important that we should know in what stage the shipping programme is? The minister, however, has not told us anything about the matter, and I hope he will not hold us responsible for anything he is doing in connection with it.
Now we come to the question as to what we should do with those ships, my hon. friends on my left always want a constructive policy, and I have no hesitation in giving my views, that if the ships are losing money by our operating them at the present time, we should not continue to operate them, because we have no money to throw away. I am also firmly convinced that it will be better for all concerned if we get rid of them, and put them into the hands of private owners. I read at the time in the London Times, that, within two weeks after the armistice, the British Government announced their policy that the freight vessels that they had purchased and built should be placed on the market and turned over to private owners.


Michael Clark: Not bad for a slow little country.


John Howard Sinclair: That
was the policy of the British Government and it was the right policy. Private ownership of ships has been successful in Great Britain, which is the greatest shipping country in the world. It has not been necessary for the British Government, in order to maintain their supremacy on the sea, to put the money of the British people into the building of ships. All they have to do is to leave the people alone and the people will do the business themselves better than the Government. My hon. friend should have left the people of Canada alone. The minister would have less to answer for and the country would have been better off if the people had been left alone. He has put the shipping of this country back for a decade by his so-called policy; he has driven shipping enterprise out of the field. Have you heard of any man putting his money into ships in this country since this programme commenced? No man would take the risk. The minister put the prices up so high; he engaged all the shipyards; he inflated prices so that new shipyards were started, and the people who put their money in them are likely to lose it. This policy will be bound to end in putting the shipping business back for a number of years to come in place of assisting it. Some hon. members will say,
"Oh, but we must have ships." Of course we must have ships; we must also have wheat and potatoes and steel; but that is no reason why the Government should begin to plant potatoes or to sow wheat. Or build steel plants. Let the Government stay out of this business; it is far too hazardous a business for the Government to be in. It is not advisable for the Government to be competing with private ownership on the seas without any prospect of reducing freight rates or of being of any advantage to the country. I have pointed out that my hon. friend does not need those vessels for the railways, and that in regard to our export trade, if we have a cargo to send to any part of the world, there are thousands of vessels ready to carry that cargo as cheaply as the Government can carry it. It is, therefore, altogether unnecessary that we should have those ships at all, and the minister will be doing the part of wisdom if he will get rid of them as quickly as possible and put them into private hands. It may be that he will not be able to sell them, at the present time; I do not know whether any one would buy them from him or not. To begin with, he would have to make a heavy loss, and he would require to make terms. He might have to give a number of years to pay for The ships. He would, of course, require to impose conditions that they would engage in Canadian trade, and remain upon the Canadian registry. If the minister had the courage to announce that his policy is to get rid of these vessels and turn them over to private ownership on the best terms he can, I am quite sure that the step would be satisfactory to the business men of this country. And that ultimately we would save a great deal of money. The Government, by engaging in this shipping programme is not doing any good to our trade; it is involving the country in a very large expediture which is likely to become much larger. It is not possible, in my judgment, for the minister to show anything like a profit for several years to come on these vessels. If he is not able to show a profit, to earn his depreciation and interest, he is going into bankruptcy, and we will lose our $70,000,000 in the end. It is far better to make our loss now and to put the ships into the hands of people who will operate them in the interest of Canadian trade. I think I have said enough at the present time, and I hope I have given the minister a few things to think about and to answer.


Michael Clark: Perhaps it would be more convenient if I said a few things before the minister replies, and he could deal with them at the same time as with the remarks of the hon. member for Antigonish and Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair).


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: If my hon. friend would allow me, I would prefer to answer the hon. member for Antigonish and Guysborough now. I did not think it would be necessary for me to say very much more as regards the Government shipbuilding programme and the operation of the ships, inasmuch as the statement which I presented to the House went into the matter very fully. The hon. member for Antigonish and Guysborough is a man who is held in very high esteem in this House and also by everyone who has the pleasure of knowing him. Therefore, I feel it is necessary, on behalf of the Government, to answer some of the salient points that he brought out in his speech. Apparently, the results for 1920 have been rather disappointing to my hon. friend. He has had considerable experience in the shipping business, and from what he knew of the high cost of operation of ships and also the very marked decrease in freights that had taken place, especially during the remaining months of 1920, he no doubt was looking for a very much worse statement than I had the pleasure of presenting to the Houes on behalf of the Government. I think the figures speak for themselves. The result of the operation of the Government shipping by the operating company is, to the mind of the most men, a very creditable showing, and inasmuch as my hon. friend has dealt considerably with the figures of the statement, it is only fair to hon. members and also to the public that I should go more in detail into the figures that I presented to the House a few days ago than I did on that occasion. First of all, I think I made it abundantly clear then-and if not, I will do so now-that the ships made an operating profit. I do not want my hon. friend or ony other hon. friend to get the total profits mixed up with the operating profits of the ships. If < tr railways had made an operating profit instead of having made a loss of $70,000,000, every hon. member of this House would feel in a much better frame of mind that he does now. But the Government ships have made an operating profit on closed voyages, for which profit I take no credit whatever, because the management of the Government

ships is left in the hands of the Canadian Government Merchant jMardne. The management are composed of old, experienced shipping men who have been for many years with the old Allan Line, and I here wish to pay my compliments to the management for the very splendid showing they made under very difficult circumstances during the calendar year 1920. The operating profit on closed voyages, as vouched for by the well-known firm of auditors, Messrs. Marwick, Mitchell and Company, was $1,293,525.55. Hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House have distorted, I will not say deliberately, but at all events they have not admitted that the Government ships during the past year made an operating profit. Now all hon. members know that in that operating profit is included the general expenses of operation of the ships, besides $1,000,000 for insurance premiums. If the ships had done nothing more than make the operating profit I have just mentioned, I consider that would be a very good showing, but the operating company have done more than that. On the open voyages a conservative estimate is that the profit applicable to 1920 would amount to $183,000. Therefore, the net operating profit on the Government ships amounted to $1,476,525.55. Will any hon. gentleman that has any knowledge of shipping say that that is not a remarkably good showing that the Government ships made during the year 1920? I know that the public are satisfied, and I know I shall read in the newspapers a little later on that the people of this country are very much gratified at the splendid showing that the Government ships made during the year 1920.


John Howard Sinclair: Does
my hon. friend say that the people of this country are satisfied with a showing that did not earn interest on the money that was put into the ships?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: If my hon. friend will wait a moment I am coming to that. First of all, I want to make it clear that the operating profit on the Government ships amounted to $1,476,525.55.


Mr. DUFF:: What year was that?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: 1920.


William Duff: Is that a new statement?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, it is the same one.	__


William Duff: It is not the same that you gave to the House the other day. On what

page of Hansard will we find that statement?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I can tell my hon. friend that in a minute. My hon. friend occupied the time of this committee for four-and-a-half hours the other day, and I hope he will not begrudge me the time necessary to make my statement. I shall guarantee I shall not take longer than forty-five or fifty minutes.


William Duff: If the minister will allow me, the hon. member for Lunenburg is in an entirely different position from the minister. The minister is here endeavouring to get the House to pass a vote of $8,000,000, and as a representative of the people of Lunenburg I say that I am fully justified in asking any questions that are relevant to the item under discussion. I am not going to allow the minister to tell me that I cannot ask questions. The minister cannot evade my questions by referring to a speech I made the other night, I want to tell the minister he must answer.


Georges Henri Boivin: Before the minister proceeds, it might be well to make the rules quite clear. The hon. member for Lunenburg is entitled to ask any question he sees fit concerning this item, and the minister can of course give any answer which he sees fit, but I must point out that when the minister has the floor, no hon. member can take the floor away from him, even for the purpose of asking a question, until the minister has concluded his remarks.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Unless the minister consents.


Georges Henri Boivin: Unless the minister
consents, of course.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am sorry the hon. member for Lunenburg did not understand the very plain statement which I made and which appears on the pages of Hansard, but for his information I will gladly repeat the figures. I say that the net operating profit on closed voyages for the calendar year ending 1920 was $1,293,525.55. And to that the net earnings on voyages closed since January applicable to 1920, namely $183,000, and you have a net operating profit for the year of $1,476,525.55, which I think the public of Canada will agree is a very good showing.


William Duff: The minister is not giving the statement he gave to the House on March 29, as it appears on page 1334 of Hansard. Do the net earnings showh
on page 1334 of Hansard, amounting to $781,460.09, include that $183,000 on closed voyages?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Certainly. My
hon. friend from Lunenburg is taking the net results of the entire statement. I am giving the operating profits first.


William Duff: You said net profits.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Net operating profits. Now we come to the question of depreciation. A great deal has been said about the cost of the Government ships, and a great deal has also been said, and rightly, about the depreciation of values. Everybody knows that there has been a very sharp decline in the cost of ships, but my hon. friends opposite, in order to show the public that there has been an enormous loss, take off the full depreciation, and take it off about twice over, from the profits for the current year, and say, here is a loss of $20,000,000, sometimes they say $50,000,000. Now these are very unusual times, and after such a long period of war every manufacturer in this country, every wholesaler, and every retailer, has large stocks of raw material and finished goods on hand that have very markedly depreciated in value. Any man who has been in business will know that if a large manufacturer carries a stock of war material estimated at $5,000,000, let us say, and there has been a depreciation in value of say $3,000,000, the manufacturer does not write off that $3,000,000 depreciation for the one year 1920. If business houses did that, they would be insolvent. What do business men do? They recognize the great depreciation in values that has taken place due to the war, and they set aside a reasonable amount for depreciation and spread it over a term of years, and that is precisely what the operating company have done. They have taken off 2 per cent, and just here let me explain a misunderstanding on the part of some hon. gentlemen. That 2 per cent depreciation was not on the full cost of the ships, but on the full cost of the ships as they were turned over to the operating company. Therefore, the depreciation is not 1,135, as some hon. gentlemen made it out to be, but 2 per cent on the full cost of the ships as they were turned over in 1920 to the operating company. The depreciation for last year amounts to $667,665.45. The operating company will reinvest that amount of depreciation, they tell me, probably in Victory Bonds bearing 51 per cent interest, and 51 per cent interest during a period of twenty-five years

will write off the entire cost of the Government fleet. Now, I think that hon. members will agree that that is a sound and conservative way of taking care of depreciation in values of the steel ships bunt by the Government under contracts, most of which were let during the war and the rest in the year 1919 when prices were very much higher than they are now. It js most unfair to the Government and to the operating company to take the full amount of millions of depreciation during the year 1920 and say that there is a loss to the Dominion of Canada on Government ships. Let me point out to hon. gentlemen that when the National Transcontinental railway was built, from Moncton to Winnipeg, at a cost to this country of $200,000,000, there was not one cent of interest paid, and there never will be for a good many years to come. I am not finding any fault with that myself; but what seems peculiar to me is that my hon. friend who has just taken his seat (Mr. Sinclair), and who has been in the House so long, should earnestly lament the fact that we are not getting full interest on the Government ships. It does not seem to trouble him that no interest was paid in connection with that $200,000,000 spent on that portion of our railroads.


Mr. CAHILL:: Where does the minister get the $200,000,000 from?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: From the Minister of Railways.


Frank S. Cahill: Well, the blue book of the Minister of Railways gives it at $168,000,000.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am quite willing to take the corrected figure as given by the hon. member for Pontiac.


William Stevens Fielding: What difference does $30,000,000 make?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The principle remains, nevertheless.


William Stevens Fielding: The principle is there, but the interest is not.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: So far as depreciation goes, I have had the operating company's figures checked up, and if the earnings keep on as they did in 1919 and 1920, the entire cost of the fleet will be written off in twenty-five years. Let me repeat again, that no business concern in this country would write off depreciation on raw material or finished goods all in one year. Now, when we come to the in-
	-
terest, if the operating company had been able to make earnings enough to pay 5i per cent interest on the cost of the ships as they were turned over to them dur'ing the past year, the amount of that interest would have been $1,828,329.07. I am quite prepared to view the statement in the way my hon. friend would like to have me look at it. What is the loss on interest when we have concluded with the entire statement? It is $1,000,000. That is a fair statement; it is a true and accurate statement, vouched by the company's auditors, the well known firm of Marwick, Mitchell and Company; and it is the only way a statement would be dealt with by any of the banks and business men throughout the country. If it gives any comfort to hon. gentlemen opposite to take off the entire depreciation on the ships at once and say that that is a loss, I have nothing further to say. Let me say, however, that during the last year the operating cost of ships was the highest that the shipping world had ever known. When you take into account the rapidly declining rates of freight and the fact that no shipping company in the world has ever had the same number of ships turned over to them in such a short space of time as this managing company, for them to make an operating profit of $1,476,525.55, to write off for depreciation, outstanding liabilities and incorporation expenses the sum of $695,065.46, and to show 2.35 interest on war cost of ships, is to make what I consider a very good statement, and so do the Government and the people of Canada.


Frank S. Cahill: Oh, no, not the people.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Well, I will come to that in a moment. When the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) was speaking, he said that I made the statement last year in the House that half a million dollars for interest had been paid into the Consolidated Revenue Fund of Canada, and in his usual declamatory style, he brushed that aside and said he did not believe that a cent had been paid into that fund.


William Duff: I did not say that.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Well, I will withdraw that statement, but that is the way I understood the hon. member.


William Duff: You must not understand; read my speech and see what I said.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: When I get my
summer holidays I shall be glad to read the hon. gentleman's speech. I made inquiry

of the Finance Department to-day and this is the information I received: There was a cheque for $500,000 for the year 1919. The cheque was received by the Finance Department from the National Railways, and was divided thus: $415,358.36 will he found at page 102 of the Public Accounts for 1919-20 and the balance $84,641.64 went into last year 1920-21. There, I think, is clear enough proof; I have indicated where in the Public Accounts the particulars may be found.


William Duff: 
Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I can only inform my hon. friend that the information which I presented to the House last year and which I am giving this year, is information I got from the operating company and which I have no reason to doubt at all. The information I gave last year I repeat again; it covers the full amount of interest on the ships that were in operation in 1919, at the rate of 51 per cent. I come to another very important matter. My hon. friend from Antigonish and Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair), said I had given three reasons for the Government entering into a policy of shipbuilding, namely, war, railways, and expansion of export trade. That is quite correct. He then went on to say that he could see no reason for entering upon a shipbuilding policy as a war measure because the first ship not launched until November 1918. That, of course, is quite correct; but I became a member of the Union Government in 1917, and during the very dark months of 1918 the war was at its very height. There was more tonnage sunk then that at any other time during the war, and no minister of the the Crown within the confines of the British Empire could sit down and say he would not enter into shipbuilding, nor would he do this, that or the other thing, because possibly the war might cease at any moment. There was only one policy for the Canadian Government to follow, and the same policy was being followed by the British Empire and all the Allies-that was to strain every nerve and to go ahead with the building of ships as fast as we could as if the war was going to last forever.
Therefore this Government very wisely, and with the unanimous consent of the House, entered upon a policy of shipbuilding, for war purposes only, in April, 1918. Happily the armistice was signed on November 11, but that was no reason for the Government not going ahead, in the early part of 1918, with their plans and their contracts with the various ship builders throughout this country to construct ships under Canadian registry, in view of the very heavy loss of tonnage that was taking place daily.	.


John Howard Sinclair: My
hon. friend has omitted to mention the main reason I gave. It was not that the keels were not laid until a certain date; it was that the Munitions Board were building ships and that the Canadian yards were busy with contracts for that board at the time my hon. friend intervened.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My hon. friend
will also remember that when I announced the Government's policy on April 4, 1918 -I have Hansard here to prove it-I very clearly explained to the House that the Imperial Munitions Board were keeping all the fourteen yards that were building steel ships in Canada busy building ships for the Mother Country under British registry, but that Canada was providing the money to build those ships


Frank S. Cahill: Just as a loan.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: -and I said at
the time the Government thought it the wiser policy-instead of putting up money to build ships under British registry for the Mother Country-which ships would leave this country and be free from Canadian control-to construct ships ourselves inasmuch as we were putting up the money for Great Britain anyway. Then we would be able to build up a mercantile marine of our own under Canadian registry which would remain under our control for all time to come.


John Howard Sinclair: We
were simply lending the money.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Of course we
were lending the money. I also said at that time that Canada needed a mercantile marine to co-operate with her large system of railways. Now my hon. friend is a much older man than I am but I cannot follow his reasoning when he says that there is no need of ships in connection with a large system of railways. Well, if my

hon. friend can prevail upon the Canadian Pacific Company to sell their fleet of ships, which is just as large as ours, and if he can impress that company with the fact that they can carry on their transportation in Canada and throughout the world with a railway system only and without ships, -if he can get the Canadian Pacific Company to do that I am willing to recommend it to the Dominion Government.


John Howard Sinclair: If my hon. friend can make a profitable business with this venture like the Canadian Pacific Railway Company is doing I would be glad to see him go on, but I do not think he can.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That was not
my hon. friend's statement. My hon. friend stated "In my opinion there is no need for ships for railways.'"


John Ewen Sinclair: (Guysborough):	Certainly not. _


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: , He further said "No railways should have ships; we can get all the ships that we want."


John Howard Sinclair: Quite
true.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have only been Minister of Marine since 1917, and I found ships as scarce as hens teeth. During 1917, 1918 and 1919 we could not get ships at all. My hon. friend also says we have not done anything to expand the export trade of Canada. Very well, I will take the British West Indies about which my hon. friend knows a great deal. When we were building ships an official of the Royal Mail Packet Company that has four ships running to Bermuda, Demerara, and Port of Spain, said "Surely you are not going to run ships down to the West Indies." It was the usual story from private owners. He said "We are taking care of all the trad". What a foolish policy it would be for the Dominion Government to send ships down to the West Indies." I told that gentleman that while we were building ships and owning ships-that is the Government of Canada-we were not operating the vessels, and the routes upon which they would run would be left by the Government to the management. Now what has been the result? Twelve of the Government ships are operating down there and they are hardly able to take care of the trade. Take the South American route. Would the Dominion of Canada have a single ship running to South America if this Government had not built and operated its own ships. Any 
man that is familiar with the transportation to the West Indies knows that the trade of those islands was in the hands of our American friends. The South American trade has also been in their hands. Let me tell my hon. friend what has happened as the result of the ships of the Canadian Government going down there, and in order to save time I will only give the bulk figures. The exports of Canada to the British West Indian Islands-Bermuda, British Guiana and British Honduras-in 1913 amounted to $4,967,312 but in 1920 they had increased to $15,257,014. That is what the Government ships have done in expanding trade between Canada and the British West Indies. Now let us see what the growth in imports has been. In 1913 our imports amounted to $9,864,017 and in 1920 they had grown to $19,863,722. Yet my hon. friend says further that these ships have done nothing to expand the export trade of Canada; and I have only cited to him the figures with respect to the West Indies alone. The hon. gentleman took the trade returns for 1919 and compared them with the returns in 1920, and he discovered from those returns that the exports were some three hundred millions less in 1920 than they were in 1919 but that is not at all surprising. The hon. member knows just as well as I do that the reason for the exports being so much larger in 1919 than they were in 1920 was on account of the need for replenishing the depleted stocks of the world after the war, but now that world-wide depression is being experienced it is not at all to be wondered at that our export trade has decreased. But I can tell my hon. friend that the decrease would be very much more if it had not been for the ships of the Government Merchant Marine.
I want to tell my hon. friend another thing. The Government held a conference with representatives of West Indies in June, 1920. What was the whole problem that had to be solved in order that Canada and the West Indies might draw closer together in the matter of trade arrangements? If the Government had not owned and been able to operate its Merchant Marine I doubt very much whether we would have been able to have successful^ completed, as we have done, the details oi the agreement entered into and which wil. be submitted to this House shortly by the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I say that we would not have been able to have concluded that preferential trade agreement with the West Indies if it had not

been for the fact that this country owned its own mechantile fleet. Jamaica, which has never yet granted Canada a preference, is now willing to give us a preference in the best market of all the Islands down there of twenty-five per cent and I repeat again if it had not been for the fact that we were able to give the West Indies the transportation facilities that we are giving them, if we had not been able to provide the passenger accommodation that we have provided-with ships sailing from Halifax in winter and from Montreal in the summer time to the Bahamas, Jamaica and British Honduras-I doubt very much whether we would have been able to have completed, in the successful way in which we did, the preferential agreement entered into between Canada and those Islands.
Now, to hear hon. members opposite one would think that Canada was the only country that had to face the problem of depreciated values of ships. But the Government of Canada has received no credit for not building wooden ships. When the Government launched its shipbuilding programme I was besieged with requests from the Maritime Provinces and from the provinces of Quebec and British Columbia to have included in our programme the construction of wooden ships. As the minister responsible, I advised the Government not to embark on wooden shipbuilding at that time, because when peace came those ships would be of little value to us and would ultimately be an (enormous loss. What were other countries doing in the meantime? Old England was having wooden ships built here, so was Norway and so was France, and while our highest average cost for steel ships was $191.50 per ton, I have seen the contracts placed for wooden ships here and I know the cost ran as high as $200 a ton. Then no one finds fault with the Emergency Fleet programme which our neighbour to the south carried on, but she has millions of tons of wooden ships on her hands and she does not know what to do with something like 536 steel ships. Then turning to the Mother Country, think of the enormous shrinkage in value both on steel and wooden ships that she has had to face. Besides that, England during the war built large national shipbuilding yards, as they were called over there, or, in other words, government yards, and they were building steel ships on a large scale. During the war Australia built just as large a mercantile fleet of steel ships as we did. I have read, as no doubt other hon. members have, what is called the Parliamentary Journal of the Empire, which gives a short synopsis of the debates that take place in the Mother of Parliament and in all the other parliaments of the British Empire. But I have not read a word of criticism in any of those parliaments in respect to the great shrinkage in the value of their ships. I find no fault with hon. gentlemen opposite for criticising the shipbuilding policy of the Government, because one of the duties of the loyal Opposition is to criticise, but inasmuch as this is a national policy I hope that hon. gentlemen opposite will take a national view of the matter and think of what these ships are doing for Canada-of how they are helping our railways and how they are helping to expand our export trade and to advertise the Dominion all over the world. Although the profits are not yet very great, I do not look through the same blue spectacles as does my hon. friend from Antigonish and Guysborough. We will pass through this depression and as long as this Government remains in power our mercantile fleet will continue to be owned by the country and operated by the Canadian Government Mercantile Marine. We are not going to sell these ships to any private interests, for just
11 p.m. so long as we own our Canadian National railways we shall need to operate our mercantile fleet in conjunction with those railways.
Hon. members have even gone so far as to estimate what the loss is going to be on the operation of our merchant marine for 1921. True, they do not know how much cargo is going to be carried, they have not the slightest idea of what the revenue or what the expenses are going to be, but still they sit down and say: Here is our loss for 1920, and here is the loss that we are going to have in 1921. Last year my hon. friends stated that 1920 was going to be a poor year. They said. Wait until you see the end of 1920, and then the people of Canada will realize where they are going to be with your shipbuilding policy. Well, we have finished 1920, and it has been a good year. Everybody thinks so, except the minority of hon. gentlemen opposite. I do not know what 1921 is going to turn out, but in this young country we have got to keep our courage up. Many of us have been through depression in our own business and we have emerged successfully, and I think the country is going to come through this depression all right. It may be that hon. gentlemen will be surprised

next year when they find a profit on the operation of this much-abused merchant marine.
I am not as familiar with the history ot the past as my hon. friend from Red Deer (Mr. Clark), hut the other day I happened to come across what is known as Crom well's Navigation Act of 1651. I think hon. members will agree that that is far enough hack.


Arthur Bliss Copp: That will he far enough
back. Now come along from year to year.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: What was the object of Cromwell's Navigation Act of 1651? No country knows better how to expand her trade than the tight little island of Great Britain, and Cromwell's Navigation Act laid down the principle that imports into the United Kingdom should he in British bottoms only, and that three-fourths of the crew should be British subjects. That is the way England started to secure the supremacy of the seas that she has maintained so well since that time not only with her mercantile fleet but also with her navy. What did Germany do in 1870? She subsidized steel shipbuilding and gave preferential rates over her railroads for cargoes to be carried in German bottoms. Therefore if Canada should lose a few million dollars a year I would conceive it to be good policy for us to have built these ships and to continue to operate them. We hear a lot about Canada being a nation. Show me a nation in the world to-day that is not a maritime nation. It is high time that Canada owned her own mercantile fleet and assumed her place among the maritime nations of the world.
I want to refer to one or two points made by my hon. friend for Guysborough before I sit down. He says that on November 11, 1918, we had only four contracts placed, and that we should have ceased shipbuilding at that time. I do not think he was in the House when I gave the figures the other day, and I will give them again now.


John Howard Sinclair: My
hon. friend is a little astray in what I said. I said there were only four keels according to the dates from a return which I got in that journal to which I referred. I am aware that there were a number of contracts, in fact I stated there were eighteen contracts between the date of the armistice and the meeting of Parliament.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am quite willing to accept my hon. friend's correction. When

he said that only four keels were laid down I inferred he was under the impression that that was all the Government had done on November 11, 1918.


John Howard Sinclair: Oh, no.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: 
John Howard Sinclair: If the minister will permit me, I did not make the comparison for the purpose of showing that there was anything wrong _ in that respect with the minister's operations. I did so to show that it was impossible for the minister to make a profit when the ships that he built cost four times as much as the ships built during the war, of which there are millions of tons now afloat. I admit that a ship cannot be built now for the price at which-it could have been built before the war.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Quite so, and in that respect Canada is in no different position from that of England, United States, Norway, France or any other country. They all have a large amount of tonnage built during the war. Norway had a ship launched at the Vickers shipyard, Montreal, on Saturday last. I know the cost of that ship, but I do not think it is fair to a foreign country that I should here state the price.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Why?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Well, I do not
think that I should. I cite the case merely to show that all countries of the _ world placed large orders for. tonnage at just as high prices as Canada paid.- Our friends to the south paid an average price of $215 a ton as compared with our price of $191.50. Canada can compete with the other nations of the world, because other nations have not fleets wholly built in pre-war times. A large proportion of the ships operating on the seven seas to-day were built during the war at high cost, just the same as Canada's were.
Now, there is another thing. The hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) when he was speaking gave figures to show at how much lower prices ships could be built to-day than the prices paid for the Government ships. When I made my statement to the House I said that the same type of ship as our 8,400 ton deadweight would cost to-day in the United Kingdom $130 a ton. My authority for that is this: our naval architect has just returned from England. There he visited all the yards, and I had told him to find out for me exactly what the yards of the United
Kingdom would charge to-day for ships of the type that we are building here. The information that he brings back is that these ships, figuring on the difference in exchange would cost $130 a ton. It is not fair to say that an ordinary tramp ship can be built to-day at a certain price as compared with the cost of the Government ships when it is a fact that the machinery, auxiliary equipment and type of the tramp ship generally are totally different from those of the Government ships. Then, my hon. friend advanced a peculiar argument;
I am not an experienced shipping man but I have never heard it. Shipping men tell me that the speed of a freight ship should not be over lOi or 11 knots an hour. If you have a freight ship with a greater speed than that you burn too much coal and the ship cannot be economically operated. But my hon. friend thinks that Canada's ships are too slow; that freight ships should have a speed of something like thirteen or fourteen knots an hour.


John Howard Sinclair: My
hon. friend has entirely mistaken my idea.
I pointed out that the Australian company operating in competition with my- hon. friend was running fast boats and that that would be another circumstance which would make it difficult for him to get the freight. I quite agree that a freight vessel must necessarily have a lower speed than a passenger vessel. I would not favour making the speed of a freight vessel anything like that of a passenger vessel. My hon. friend misunderstood me.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not think I did, but of course I will accept the explanation of my hon. friend. But I want to point out to him that more than once in his speech to-night and during his previous speeches he referred to the Government ships as tramp ships-I took note of it at the time-and referred to the slowness of the speed, 10J and 11 knots. That is a proper speed for the ordinary freight ship. So far as the Australian route is concerned, while I have not the details I was told by the management not very long ago that our ships are carrying full cargoes to Australia and New Zeoland and that that is the most profitable route which the Government ships at present operate. My hon. friend also made the point that we subsidize these competing ships. True, we are subsidizing ships running to Australia, to Newfoundland and to the West Indies. But the ships under subsidy by the Department of Trade and Commerce are

freight and passenger ships, whereas the Government ships carry freight only.
Now, I wish to submit the following details of difference in construction and equipment between the Government ships and ordinary British tramp ships:
1.	Increase in accommodation area, and quality also accommodation for 4 passengers with deck saloon and lavatory adjacent.
2.	Additional heavy derricks.
3.	Additional electrical plant.
4.	Total equipment and outfitting, not included in British vessels.
_	5. Sidelights brass in Canadian vessels: cast
' iron in British.
6.	Steam heating in excess to suit Canadian winter ports.
7.	Steering gear: very much in excess of British vessels, being directly connected to rudder head with telemotor control.
8.	Telegraph: largely in excess of British vessels.
9.	Winches: one extro on Canadian vessels.
10.	Navigating position largely in excess of British vessels.
11.. Fittings and equipment throughout in excess of British vessels.
12.	Canadian vessels have cold store and refrigerating engine for ships' provisions. British vessels have only ice box.
13.	Grain trimming and escape hatches in Canadian vessels extra.
14.	Mechanical' operating gear for engine room- skylights and handling lifeboats.
15.	Sundry items throughout vessels, such as teak rails, extra rails and stanchions, canvas work, extra stores, galley and pantry equipment, hospital, galvanizing iron work, upholstery, etc., all additional to equipment in British vessels.
16.	Bronze propeller blades, and bronze spares. Cast iron in British vessels.
17.	Additional covering to boilers.
18.	Ash ejector fitted in addition to ash hoist.
19.	One sanitary pump extra.
20.	Independent in place of attached feed pumps.
21.	Extra metallic packing.
22.	Extra spare gear and outfit.
23.	No trials were held on British vessels owing to war conditions? Ail Canadian vessels perform 6 hours full power trial, with steering and anchor trials.
" I may say also that a number of our vessels are equipped with oil fuel installation in addition to coal fuel." There is, therefore, a long list of differences between a Government ship and an ordinary freighter.
There is another thing that has just occurred to my mind. The hon. member for Antigonish and Guysborough Mr. Sinclair) and the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) said that a large number of the Government ships were idle; that they were swinging at their anchors in Halifax harbour. This country has been fortunate; all the Government ships were busy in 1920, and up to this moment they are, so far as my information reaches me, all engaged. The reason that ships are lying

at anchor in Halifax harbour at the present time is because they are in there for their annual overhaul, and when that is done, they are going to enter into the coal trade of Canada. My hon. friend (Mr. Sinclair) says that our small ships are of no use; that they are only yachts. Let us see what size " yachts " they are. Nearly all of those ships are 3,750 tons deadweight, and we have only four that are as small as 2,800 tons. My hon. friend knows that to do trade in Newfoundland and the West Indies where the waters are shallow, you must have vessels of light draft, and we could not send larger vessels than the ones that are plying now either to the West Indies or to Newfoundland. In addition to that, our vast system of railways requires a large number of that exact type of ships to be put into the coal trade.	;


John Howard Sinclair: Does my hon. friend intend to put the small ship's into the coal trade?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The operating
company do.
Mr: SINCLAIR (Guysborough) :	They
will be making a mistake.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Possibly. I have never interfered, nor has the Government, with the management. I do not know anything about the operation or the price of their coal. I do not ask them any more questions than I would ask the Canadian Pacific.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Do you not think you should?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: All that I am interested in, as Minister of Marine and Fisheries in this Government, is the net results of the operation of ships at the end of the year. I am not going to cover the debate that took place in this House the other day; but no man could manage ships if the Minister of Marine or any of the other ministers of the Dominion Government were going to ask him where he bought his lubricating oil or coal, or where he bought his butter or cheese. I do not ask a single question at all; they have an absolutely free hand as long as I am Minister of Marine, and as minister and speaking for the Government, I want to say that we are well pleased with the splendid showing made in 1920 and we are very hopeful for the year 1921.


Michael Clark: It is considerably past the hour when the House should be closed up if we had carried the pro-

position that was before us to-day, and I do not want to detain the committee unduly at this hour. I am lost in admiration ad the courage and optimism of the minister and I say that unreservedly. He is a splendid type of a Canadian; but even Canadians can be too optimistic, and I really think the minister, just at the moment, is the leader in the class of super-optimistic Canadians. My hon. friend is too optimistic when he assures himself and keeps assuring this committee that the country is behind this shipbuilding policy. I want the minister to listen to what I am going to say on this subject. If there was anything in that statement or as much in it as my hon. friend thinks, I knfiw of no man who would be so loyal to him as the Prime Minister (Mr. Meighen), but even the Prime Minister the other day used words of very great caution and reserve in regard to this scheme. He said: " It is true the pic. ture is not as rosy as we could wish it might be." I thought I used rather strong language when I spoke of the business as a white elephant, but if there is a fair amount of truth in the representations that have been made by the hon. members for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) and Antigonish and Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair), I do not think I used too strong language at all.
There is this further fact which I should like to bring to the minister's mind so as to moderate his optimism as to the people of the country, and it is a point he might be able to clear up. The severest critics in the press of my hon. friend's statement the other day were to be found in newspapers which are about the very strongest supporters of this Government. The Halifax Herald, a newspaper whtch has always been prepared to burn its boats for anything coming from a Conservative ministry or a ministry that might be suspected of any tendency towards Conservatism, offered most uncompromising and severe criticism of the minister's whole scheme, and Halifax is a shipping port where newspapers should know something about this question. I am trying, you see, to get the minister into a reasonable frame of mind on this subject, because if he goes away with the Prime Minister to Great Britain as he is threatening to do, and he keeps in this optimistic frame of mind about shipping, he will be coming back with a string of dreadnoughts in his train. That would be a very serious catastrophe to come over this country at the present time. You come from Halifax to Ottawa, and you have in Ottawa a paper known as the
Journal which has vied with the Halifax Herald in severe animadversions upon my hon. friend's statement. Then you take a trip from Ottawa to Montreal, go back a little in your tracks, and you come to the greatest shipping port in this country, the place where surely my hon. friend's scheme should have enthusiastic support if it gets it anywhere. But here again his journalistic friend, the Gazette, meets him and joins with the Ottawa Journal, with the Halifax Herald, and to some extent with the Prime Minister himself, in taking a gloomy view about the subject upon which my hon. friend is a positive Micawber, who is always sure that something is going to turn up to get him out of his troubles.
I want to give my hon. friend some more reasons why I think his optimism is not entirely well founded. I am going to show him, I think without any fear of contradiction or refutation, that his scheme has already broken down in some of its main features. I want to make very definitely this statement, that the scheme as undertaken by the Canadian Government was not in its inception a war measure atj all. If I need any evidence of that, I find it in the statement which my hon. friend made a few minutes ago. He said that when he embarked upon the scheme, the Imperial Munitions Board was building, I think he said, at fourteen points in Canada, was doing all with Canadian material, Canadian men, and at Canadian shipping points that could be done for the winning of the war. I do not see my hon. friend take any objection to that. Then, I repeat, the first point in his argumentative platform goes out clean from benenth him. It never was a war measure at all, and that has a serious bearing on things we have heard in this debate, not only from my hon. friend the minister, but from this side of the House that this shipbuilding was all right as a war measure, but should have been stopped at the asmistice. It never was a necessary war measure as undertaken by the Canadian Government. The work never should have been taken out of the hands of the Imperial Munitions Board. We had our hands very full during the war, and the Government had my whole-hearted support at that time for anything in reason, but as my hon. friend admitted the other day, I never gave any countenance whatsoever to his taking up this business of shipbuilding.
Well now, if it was not a war measure, what was it? What was at the back of my hon. friend's head when he undertook this? It was nothing that was in any way dis-

creditable to him, neither was it discreditable to my hon. friend from Maisonneuve and my hon. friend from North Cape Breton that they agreed with him. What is discreditable to them, I think, is the way they leave the minister in the lurch to-day. It is especially wrong on the part of a Highland Scotchman, who should always be prepared to die in the last ditch for any cause to which he has given his adherence. But I leave them out of consideration. What was in my hon. friend's head was that if there was to be shipbuilding in Canada, it was a useful industry for the Government to support. That was really what was in his head, and he was an extremely skilful man in setting about it. I do not want to use the words offensively, but when he arranged to burglarize the public purse, he took the precautionary measure of enlisting some of those who ought to be detectives and making them receivers. That is what happened at various points in this country. He got them into the scheme with him,- it is no use going behind the bush in this business-and so he had this put before us as a great scheme for building up the shipbuilding industry in Canada. That was what was in my hon. friend's mind. He had all the anxiety about the war that any member of the Cabinet had, and their anxieties were great, but his anxiety was not that ships were not being built fast enough in Canada for the war, because he knew the Munitions Board were building them fast enough, faster and better than he could build them, and he ought to have known-and this is where I must blame him, kind as he has been to me in his language, and I appreciate his courtesy and kindness-he ought to have known, I say, that he would have got out of his difficulties much sooner if he had left the business in the hands of those who were experienced in this kind of work.
I have not heard any pointed reference to the steel end of this shipbuilding project. What is the position of the steel end of it? The minister says now that we ought to have projected a war that was going to last forever. Well, that is a long way to look forward to, a very long way. Indeed, it is more than the mind can grasp, and it must be clear, I think, to the minister that if we were to look forward to a war lasting forever, we need not have troubled about these matters any further because we should have all gone down in the sweep. There would not have been a government to take the place of the one that is disappearing

on the other side, and all our troubles would have been settled in oblivion.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: If my hon. friend will allow me, I did not say the war was going to go on forever, but I said the Government ought to go ahead with its plans for helping win the war as if the war was going to go on, which is a different thing.


Michael Clark: That only shows that the minister was careful as a prophet, but very careless as to policy, because if the war was not going to go on forever, it has become fatal for him to go on with his policy forever. While the war has gone, the policy is with us. I do not think the minister is helping himself by his correction.
This was what was in the minds of those implementing this project. What otherwise was the meaning of a contract for five years, and that is a considerable portion of forever, with the Dominion Iron and Steel Company? I think I am right in saying that a contract was entered into with that company for 250,000 tons of steel plate. I do not know precisely what is the condition of that contract now, but it is confidently stated in many quarters that only 40,000 of the 250,000 tons have been delivered, and that that part of the project is closed down at the present moment. I do not think it is going at all-if I am wrong, the minister will correct me-and the Government is being pursued, naturally, by the company for some compensation for their losses under this very formidable contract which has broken down. I do not want to press this point very much further. I am only concerned that the main features of this scheme should be before this committee before we vote $8,330,000. It is somewhat alarming, Mr. Chairman, to reflect that this vote, which now looks so small to us, is one-fifth of the total expenditure of Canada in 1896, when the late Liberal Government came into power-one-fifth of the total money that was running the whole Dominion for federal purposes. We cannot lightly pass this vote until we are sure the committee knows what it is doing, and that the country also knows what are the main features of this scheme. I take it that at the present moment-and I am very anxious to have the minister's attention, because I want to know, and the committee will want to know, exactly what the state of his mind is before he gets his money-the position of the Government is that construction on this programme will cease this year, that

this is the last money that the minister expects to ask for, for the construction of ships under the Dominion programme. Well, I am sorry to say that brings us to this position, that the second plank of my hon. friend's augmentative platform goes out from beneath him, because for the moment this great industry of shipbuilding, this building up of industry along the line of shipbuilding, has disappeared from the Government's programme. The programme, my hon. friend said in his first statement to the House, will terminate so far as the Marine Department is concerned this year, so that the second plank in his platform, I repeat, goes out from beneath him. I wish I could be as sure of the Government as I am of the Marine Department. I will tell my hon. friend why I have doubts on that subject. Just before the statement which I have quoted from memory occurs this other statement:
Regarding the question of a subsidy as an aid to stimulate steel shipbuilding in Canada, the Government has this matter still under consideration, and it may be that an announcement in that connection will be made by the hon. the Minister of Finance when he brings down his budget.
Now I must say that that statement fills me with very considerable alarm. I had hoped that we should get away from our duties here by the end of May or early in June, but if, after we have got the shipping vote all on one side, we are to have a system of shipping subsidies for an industry which is as manifestly difficult to carry on as the shipping industry at the present moment, then I apprehend that the discussion of the Budget will be neither brief nor smooth. I will not say any more about it at the present time than just that, because, if we are to be asked, on top of the minister's statement about the surplus ships that are in the hands of the government of every nation in the world, to invest Canadian money in more shipbuilding, then we are certainly to be asked to take a course which is unbusinesslike and which would lead to certain loss and certain national disaster in the immediate future. I issue that word of warning in the hope that it may reach the ears and eyes of the Minister of Finance and that he will not fulfil the veiled prophecy which is contained in that portion of my hon. friend's speech.
Now, in connection with the building of industries, my hon. friend has repeated an argument to-night for the continuance of this scheme which he used in the year 1919, and which he used last year; that is, as to
the employment of workmen. At first sight, and if we did not go below the surface of the matter, it would naturally appeal to any one of us in these difficult times. But I want to point out to the Government that the employment of public money to give work to any portion of our inhabitants in an unprofitable enterprise only aggravates the difficulty which it sets out to relieve, because you can get money only in two ways. If you raise it by taxes, then you take the money from the pockets of the taxpayer to put it into an unprofitable enterprise; if it remained in the pockets of the taxpayers, it would either go into the development of their own business or to swell the money in the hands of our banks, and would be loaned out to promote profitable business. If, on the other hand, instead of raising it by taxes, you raise it, as is not too seldom the case, by borrowing, then, in addition to the economic evils which I have just pointed out, you have the further economic loss of having to pay interest on the money you borrow; and when, as is frequently the case, we borrow from a foreign country, there is the added evil that for the sake of relief to a few workmen at a few points in the country, we pay interest to foreign people. Capital comes into the country in the shape of goods made abroad, and we make business for the foreign country from which we borrow and employ workmen in that country only to score a loss and put our own workmen out of work in our own country. So that no policy is more reprehensible, no policy in the long run is more economically unsound, than the policy of embarking on unprofitable or unremunerative work.for the simple object of giving temporary and local relief to a handful of our own people.
Now it was not a war policy; the minister has proved that. It was not a necessary war policy; it was simply a continuation of a war policy which was being as well, or better done, and with vastly less risk to the people, by the Imperial Munitions Board. It . clearly was not a good way of building up Canadian industry, because my hon. friend assumes the committee that we are giving it up this year as a Government enterprise. I have pointed out its futility and folly as a cure for unemployment, and their remains the consideration that it is the necessary complement to the Government system of railways. Well, I should like to know exactly where my hon. friend stands under this head. We are left now with the ships on our hands. I do not wish to use language of recrim-

ination. My object is not a party object; it is to serve the country in this matter and help the people and the Government, if they will be helped, out of their difficulties. But I should like to know if I am right in interviewing my hon. friend's mind when I infer from what he has said that he still thinks it is a good thing for the Government to go on operating these ships. A diametrically opposite policy has been suggested by my hon. friend from Guys-borough (Mr. Sinclair), who says he would sell the ships. Well, I do not know whether I would recommend that policy at the moment, for the minister is in the unfortunate position of having missed his mark. He said himself that he could have sold them last year; but las year was 1920, and this is 1921, and I doubt very much whether there is anything in the suggestion of the hon. member for Guys-borough, for the simple reason that it is highly (problematical as to (whether he could sell the ships except at a loss that must be regarded as absolutely ruinous.
With regard to the alternative of going on operating these ships, though of a sanguine temperament, I still fail for the moment, I am sorry to say, to share the minister's optimism. It seems to me to be a very doubtful course of national policy to add to railroads, which show a deficit of $70,000,000 this year, a fleet of ships which, at their end of this transportation system, I very much fear may show a deficit in the years that lie immediately in front of us. I hope not. As a good Canadian, I hope I am wrong; but that is how it looks to me. I believe that my hon. friend, even if we allow his figures to be all right tonight, will have a different showing to make next year; and if there were any way of disposing of these ships at a reasonable loss, I would seriously ask him to consider the recommendation of my hon. friend from Guysborough.
For the rest, I should not like to sit down without a constructive word, and I must repeat what I have said to my hon. friend from the beginning of this business. He has referred to-night in complimentary terms to Britain's history in regard to shipping. He spoke of what was done at the time of Cromwell. Well, the spirit that runs British ships was manifest then; but to bring British shipping to where it is to-day, in addition to that spirit, there has been a policy, and that is the policy not want to press this point; I am almost tired of hearing my own voice pressing it in this House, I have had so much to

say upon it. I do want to say, however, that this Government will have to decide whether they want a high tariff policy or a shipping policy, because they will not get both. I repeat that prophecy with the utmost confidence, and I do so for the purpose of urging my hon. friend to bring this consideration before the Cabinet. What is the sense of building railroads to carry the surplus of our crops to the edge of the ocean, and building ships for the avowed purpose of carrying those crops, and then putting up a high tariff wall as an obstacle in the way of goods either going out or coming in? You may have the one policy, or the other to pursue both is an act of economic folly. , If we are to have a tariff wall as high as Hainan's gallows then do not let us fool ourselves about having a successful merchant marine, because we shall not have it.
I have tried to review the minister's policy in as few words as I could compress it into. I have charged that his policy was not a war policy undertaken, for the war. It was taken out of the hands of those who were doing it as well'as he has done it, and better. It has failed as a shipbuilding industry in the hands of the Government; it is a doubtful scheme as regards operation; and I do not think it will be made a success until the country alters its fiscal policy.
I just have one word more to say, and that is that if the minister goes to Britain we shall have to know a good deal about naval policy before that time. I would recommend to him that when he goes to that country to study shipping at first hand, he should meet the shipping men of the Old Land and they will tell him how shipping has been made a success there. He will only find one opinion amongst people who have anything to do with ships in Britain as to what has been the cause of the success of British shipping. He will only find one opinion, as indeed there only can be one opinion; and to continue with this shipping policy at the same time that we follow the fiscal policy that has been followed in this country, from Confederation up to the present moment, is an act of economic folly which can only end in national loss and disaster.


Mr. COCKSHUTT:: I do not profess to be a sailing man, and I do not profess to know a great deal about the mercantile marine, but I do think there has been considerable criticism from some of our friends across the way, especially those that come from the maritime districts. My

good friend from Red Deer (Mr. Clark) lives at a good distance from the sea now, and I am afraid that he has forgotten some of the opinions that he brought over with him from the Old Land when he first came across.


Michael Clark: My memory is my strong point.


William Foster Cockshutt: My hon. friend was then more of a maritime man that he appears to be at present. The hon. member for Antigonish and Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) has delivered a long address tonight as did the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff), the other day, eonveying the idea that the shipbuilding policy with which the minister has allied himself is one that is going to lead to great disaster in this country. The minister is well able to look after himself as has been proved on many previous occasions. However, I shall say a few words with regard to some of the points raised and I shall, in reply to what has been stated by one or two gentlemen opposite, place on record a few of the press criticisms which have been said to be of a very unkind nature; I think it was the hon. member for Red Deer who made that observation. Some of the newspapers, however, have not criticised the minister in any such way, and if the comments come from papers that are usually unfriendly to the minister and the Government I think perhaps they will have quite as much effect as if they were from papers that have supported the Government, even if those comments are not, in some instances, as favourable as they might be. I shall read first the opinion of the Sydney Post:
Canada's experience with its state-owned merchant marine has been more encouraging than with its Government-controlled railway system. In cost of construction and operation, in freights earned, and in successful business management Mr. Ballantyne was able to demonstrate by a comparative statement that Canada's merchant marine has made a record which suffers nothing by comparison of that of any other country.
That is fairly strong and it comes from a maritime quarter, the Sydney Post of March 31. I hope the hon. member for Lunenburg will take notice of that fact.


William Duff: Thank you, I have.


William Foster Cockshutt: I now come to the Winnipeg Tribune. It is published in a city a fairly long distance from .the sea, but not so very far from the Great Lakes where shipping is considerable of a factor.
The Winnipeg Tribune of March 31 contains the following:
"The showing made by the Canadian merchant marine is not by any means bad when the circumstances of trade during the past year are taken into account, and when its position is compared with merchant marine of other countries."
"The merchant marine as it exists, however, forms a great and powerful weapon in the hands of the Government of Canada for the development of overseas trade. It is capable of being used, and should be used both to stimulate trade where it may be profitable to the country as a whole, and to correct some of the unfortunate tendencies of our trade as it at present exists."
I think that is favourable comment coming from the Winnipeg Tribune. Now, let me quote from the Vancouver Province of March 30:
"Happily the Minister of Marine does not share all the experience of the Minister of Railways. He does not report a deficit."
The Government purchase of ships was not intended as a direct financial investment. It was one way of providing employment for returned soldiers for the period or readjustment after the war. In this province, and doubtless elsewhere preference was given to returned men in these works. The industry gave regular and well paid employment at a time when it was gretly needed."	
"Nevertheless the Canadian merchant fleet seems to have been kept busy, and it is now possible to establish several Canadian steamship services which might otherwise have to wait.
Next, I will give a quotation from the Hamilton Spectator of April 2:
It is true that the shipbuilding programme was not completed in time to be of practical service in the campaign; but the Government can hardly be blamed for not foreseeing the exact date of the termination of hostilities.
Now the Toronto Mail and Empire of March 31:
The statement presented by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries respecting the operation of the national merchant fleet for 1920 is very gratifying. It is the more pleasing because in the latter part of the year shipping conditions on the ocean were much depressed. The United States shipping Board had to lay up hundreds of -vessels, and suffered heavy operating losses. British owners had to lay up ships. Rates fell from one-third to two-thirds of what they were in January, 1920. Competition for cargoes was keen by the tramp freighters, and new routes were projected by many of the important old lines. It might have been expected that the Canadian Government fleet, being a new comer on the ocean, would have been at a large disadvantage in breaking into transatlantic cargo carrying, but though the number of ships in operation increased during the year to 47, with a tonnage of 250,000, cargoes were found for nearly all voyages. Hon. Mr. Ballantyne was able to report an operating surplus of $1,293,000. After depreciation, incorporation charges, and liabilities, the net surplus was $781,460

which was 2.35 per cent on the capital cost of the ships. Last year was really the first fair test of the merchant marine, because in 1919 only a few round voyages had been completed by about a dozen ships. When rates had sunk so low that even thousands of British vessels were laid up, the making of an operating profit was a triumph of management. There are sixteen vessels still to be delivered, nearly all of them large vessels. Hon. Mr. Ballantyne complains that the Canadian manufacturers have only given half-hearted support to the government vessels. They have not gone after export business, as they should, and have been too content to do their importing of overseas materials through United States channels. The rapid .extension of routes on which the government freighters ply offers to Canadian business men exceptional sea transportation, and as costs of production come down, and a surplus productive capacity is built up, more energy in developing overseas business should be expected. The government ships are giving the service, at any rate, and if they can continue to pay their way, making some return on their capital cost, the country will have reason to congratulate itself on the experiment. Few countries have attempted national operation of merchant vessels with any success.
I have only read a few of the large number of extracts that I have here.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Were they marked to be
read?


William Foster Cockshutt: No. I have read
several, and if my hon. friend wants more they can certainly be handed to him.


Arthur Bliss Copp: You had better read them.


William Foster Cockshutt: I am not going to
kill time, as my hon. friend might expect.


Arthur Bliss Copp: You have done more of it
than I have this session.


William Foster Cockshutt: I did not say my
hon. friend had killed time. Do not run away with that idea before it is imputed to you. I said I did not want to quote them for that purpose, and although I have these extracts I do not propose to read them at the behest of my hon. friend.
I want to devote one or two moments to the arguments put forward by my hon. friend from Red Deer (Mr. Clark). He has several grievous faults to find with the shipbuilding policy of Canada as a policy. It is open to criticism probably, and I would expect my hon. friend, who studies all matters of economics, to have some criticism on so large a subject as the shipbuilding policy of Canada. Now as the Vancouver Province article -which I have just read pointed out, shipbuilding was undertaken for several reasons, one of which was to carry freight in co-operation with our railways. And I take issue with my hon. friend from Red Deer and other gentlemen op-

posite who criticize that as not being the part of good policy. The Canadian Pacific railway has made excellent progress along that line. It finds that it is necessary to have freighters on both oceans, and has operated them successfully for a long time in conjunction with its railway system. I admit that it requires very strong backing to do that, but if the Canadian National railways are to be a success they must be able to compete in all matters with the Canadian Pacific railway, and they cannot do that too soon. I can quite understand ' that shipping men do not like that any better than the Canadian Pacific Railway does, but the Government having, partly perhaps from choice, but largely from compulsion, taken over about 20,000 miles of railway, we are now obliged to run those railways to the best possible advantage, and I submit that it is economically a sound policy to have boats on the oceans east and west and also on the lakes, if necessary, to co-operate with our railways and to make our carrying charges as low as possible so as to compete with any other transportation company in that respect.
I think transportation is a national policy. I thought to have ships upon the waters, would appeal to my hon. friend from Red Deer, because though I know he is pessimistic with regard to many things that are made in Canada, if I recall correctly he did not think that Canada was only able to build ships of a small character and for the carrying trade, but in that celebrated debate on the Naval issue my hon. friend even went so far as to strain his free trade opinions in favour 12 m. of building dreadnoughts in Canada. I do not want to misconstrue him. I was in the House when that speech was made, and I was shocked that a gentleman who as a rule was so consistent on free trade could have broken through even to the extent of proposing that we should build battleships, but I believe the hon. gentleman did advocate that policy on that occasion. If I have misinterpreted him I shall be glad to be corrected.


Michael Clark: If my hon.
friend will permit me, I do not want to interrupt him, but he is always so fair to me that I know he wants to be told exactly where I am in that matter. Of course, I supported Canada building her own ships for defence. If she was to have a navy at all, I preferred to have it made in Canada. If I may say so, I think my hon. friend has come to my view in that respect. It was

a question of defence, and even so old an authority on economics as Adam Smith states that defence is the first duty of a country. But when it comes to a question of building ships for profit, my hon. friend is dealing with another question altogether. I believe in having good stout locks upon my house for my own security, but it does not follow that I want to embark in the business of a locksmith and lose money in making and selling locks.


William Foster Cockshutt: Mr. Chairman, I
did not think the hon. gentleman was going to explain his shipbuilding policy and give his reasons for going back on free trade to the extent of supporting a shipbuilding policy for Canada. I thought he would have had uttered only two or three words to tell me whether I was minsinterpreting him or not. I do not like to have a free trade speech thrust in the middle of a protectionist speech because it rather spoils the thread of my argument. The hon. gentleman says that I have come to his line of policy. Not at all. I am backing the building of ships that we can build in Canada to advantage,-these merchant marine ships,-but I am not asking that we should build dreadnoughts, for they are the last word in shipbuilding, and even yet Canada is not prepared in any shape or form to build those big battleships. I do not think my hon. friend accuses me of being unduly peaceful, but I say that at the present time I do not think Canada is called upon to embark on a battleship enterprise. Therefore, I am not in line with his policy on that occasion.
Now, if the manufacturers of Canada, as is stated by the minister-and I am afraid there is some truth in it-have not taken full advantage of his policy, it must be remembered that at the present time export trade presents very serious difficulties, as everybody knows who is in the business. If you sell your goods to-day to foreign countries it is questionable if you can get paid for them, and if you do get paid it is in a depreciated currency or in goods that you are not in need of. Therefore I say it was a most unfortunate time for the minister to embark on this policy. But that is not his fault, and the blame should not be on him. The policy is all right, but it was embarked upon about four years too late. The minister was not in office at that time or I believe that the policy would not have been undertaken too late-I mean too late to get the best financial results, not too late to be of general advantage to the
Dominion in point of trade. I myself waited on the then Minister of Marine four or five years ago and begged him to embark on the building of some ships. That was away back in the second year of the war, when it became evident that we were going to lose a large amount of British shipping through the activities of the German submarines. I tried to convince him that it was the psychological moment to undertake a shipbiulding programme. At that time ships could have been built at half the price that they cost later, and, further, during the war they would have paid for themselves if they made two or three successful voyages, so high was the cost of transportation at that time. Therefore I say to my hon. friend from Red Deer that this is a sound commercial policy providing we are getting good value for the money spent.
The question arises whether or not the best of bargains has been made. I do not think any hon. gentleman has said that the minister did not make the best bargain possible at the time the contracts were let, and while it is easy to figure out now that you have lost money on those contracts, where is there a private firm to-day is not more or less in the same position? I know of small businesses in our town that have had to wipe out nearly half their capital this last year because they were caught when the war ended with a vast amount of material on hand which went down to twenty-five per cent of its original value. I am connected with several enterprises that have had to make very serious reductions in the value of the goods on hand -and it would strike the Government the same as it would strike private individuals. Before the war ended the farmers were getting very high prices for their produce, but if they carried their stock recently they had to write off a large proportion of the value and if they sold they had to sell at a straight loss. Therefore, the minister having in good faith placed contracts for the building of these vessels, is carrying out his part of the contract as an honest man should. Every business man must stand by his business engagements whether they are going to be a loss to him or not. So I say to the hon. member for Red Deer that the policy is all right; the only question is whether the thing is being done at the right time and to the best advantage. If the hon. member knew that proper consideration had not been given to the matter and that fair advantage had not been taken of the oppor-


RBYISBD EDITION
[Stage Direction]
tunities offered, why that would be a point which he could reasonably put forward as an argument. But he questions the right of the Government, or of practically anybody to spend money on what we might call relief work.
Michael Clark: I did not
question the "right" of the Government. The Government is almighty in the country while it is governing. I questioned the wisdom of the Government's action. I join with my hon. friend in defending the rights of the Government, but I should be sorry to join with him in every thing he thinks wise.


William Foster Cockshutt: All wisdom, I admit, does not dwell under my cranium, nor does it under that of my hon. friend. Perhaps a little error creeps into both now and again, but there is more error in my hon. friend's cranium, I think, than there is in mine on this question of relief work. He says he questions the wisdom of the Government. Well, both in the Old Land and in this land works of practically no utility have been undertaken for the sake of furnishing employment to workmen. This policy has been followed in order that these men might feel that they were not dependent on the contributions of their fellowmen; in order that they might maintain their dignity and be in a position to say with truth: We are earning our living. So when my hon. friend says that that is not good policy I answer him by saying that the Government was justified in its expenditure which resulted in furnishing employment to returned soldiers and others who would otherwise have been out of a job-justified even if the ships could have been built at twenty-five or fifty per cent less. I believe that my good friend here, the member for Skeena (Mr. Peck) who has every sympathy for the soldiers, will express the view that it is a sound policy to help returned men, even , if at a disadvantage otherwise.


Michael Clark: If it is good policy, why does not the Government continue it? Why is the Government finishing its contracts and why has it cancelled its contract for plates?


William Foster Cockshutt: The minister had a certain programme, and that programme is finished at a certain time. All programmes, no matter how long they are, and all speeches on great questions, must some time come to an end-because they are finished.


Michael Clark: The unemployment is still there.
[Mr. Cockshutt.)


William Foster Cockshutt: Perhaps so, but it
may he relieved in another direction. Why should we keep on building ships if we have enough? Let us build something else that we need more. What about highways? That is a good thing on which to spend money and the proper time to undertake work of that kind is when the workingmen of the country need it. I stand by that as sound policy. It is a sympathetic policy. I will not say it is a charitable policy, because when you furnish work to a man who is willing to work, -I do not think you are giving him charity; you are simply making it possible for him to obtain his daily bread in an honest and satisfactory way and to hold his head up and say: I am a man among men. I am surprised that the hon. member for Red Deer should object when the Government say they undertook this policy partly to furnish work for the unemployed. As is pointed out by the Vancouver paper, this policy was a great benefit to a large"number of returned men in that city.
Now, as to the value of the ships we have, I do not profess to know as much about that phase of the subject as the member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) does. But I am afraid he is disposed to write off somewhat more on these ships than he would if he was the owner of them. I do not know the hon. gentleman's pedigree, but I rather think there must he some Scotch in him. As a matter of ordinary business the whole amount should not be written off in one year; it should be spread over a term of years. No business man would say: Well, this is a pessimistic morning; I will take an inventory of my stock and down comes everything to seventy-five per cent below what it cost. Where would the assets of this country be if we applied that principle all round? What can you sell to-day at one hundred cents on the dollar? I.challenge my hon. friend to pick out of the daily market reports in the newspapers ten companies whose stock is to-day selling even at par or anything near par. Canadian Pacific stock, which was selling two or three years ago as high as 285, has come down to as low as 115. If that is possible in the case of a great and powerful enterprise managed to the last degree of efficiency, is it likely that the Government, embarking on a new policy in difficult times, could foresee that shipping was going to come down with such a sudden bump ? I say, therefore, that business men throughout the country will not be disposed to criticise the minister because he keeps the book value of his ships abcve

the market price. I say that in spite of the contention of the hon. member for Guysborough, who, I believe, paid some attention to me a few moments ago when I was not in the House. I repeat that the proper way to make these reductions is by a- certain amount each year, according as the business will stand it. It is unreasonable for the hon. member for Lunenburg or the hon. member for Guysborough to suggest that the whole thing be cut down in one fell swoop; if they were shareholders in a company, they would not advise such a course as that. Why ask the Government to get pessimistic all of a sudden? I admire the optimism of the hon. Minister of Marine. It is quite true, as the member for Red Deer has said, that it is an optimism that is not, perhaps, given to everybody. Some men are always pessimistic and some are always optimistic; I try to be a little of each. I know that we all want a little bracing in these times. It appears to. me that it comes like a tonic from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to hear him, in answer to wails that come from the other side, wails all down the line about the tremendous loss in ships and to Canadian trade, say: "Well, I see brightness ahead; I see a future for our ships; I see that this is going to be a commercial success some day, and in connection with our railways, is going to be a paying policy for the Dominion of Canada." I really think when the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark) sleeps over this situation, he will conclude that he went a little too far in his depression tonight as regards a policy that is really commendable. I do not like to see him get into a pessimistic mood. I know it is very hard for him to refrain from that when he sees protection romping around, but I hope he will not give way to it too much. As I do not want him to become too pessimistic, I will give him as a bracer, a definition of pessimism that I heard the other day. A man is a pessimist who considers it is necessary to wear both a belt and braces. I suggest to my hon. friend that he does not get too pessimistic as to require bracing up to that extent. .
I rose to make these few remarks only because I think the minister has been perhaps unduly pressed on this subject, and he is too good matured, he does not want to use too many hard words, so I do not believe he will object to my putting in a few thrusts to my hon. friends opposite to show them that I, as a business man, believe the minister has done his utmost
119i
to make the affairs of this country successful and prosperous. He began the work at the very top notch, and while that was unfortunate, it was not his fault. He was urged to do it on every hand, and many to-day would have him continue it. I believe even the hon. member for Maison-neuve (Mr. Lemieux) who made that severe attack on the minister the other day, would be willing to let the item pass, if the minister would say: "I will spend a few million dollars in the constituency of Gaspe in building ships." Do not be too pessimistic about the success of the shipping policy of the minister in connection with the railways. While I admit that deficits of the kind that we have had on the railways cause a shudder to run down our spine, so to speak, we believe that, with our railways and our ships being operated in conjunction with each other, this country will be pulled out of the mire by a board that may be finally brought to give its best attention to the development of these great enterprises. If we boost up our shipping and boost up our railways as we should, if we show the loyalty that is in us towards these enterprises and do not criticise and knock and pound and try to drive into the earth our property, there will be a vast difference m the atmosphere in a very short time. That is the spirit which I commend to the attention to some of my hon. friends opposite; I suggest that they lend a friendly hand and try to get a traffic for our property both on water and on land, and I think in due course they will see the sun smiling just as the Minister of Marine says.
Mr. DuTREMBLAY:	Last session this
Parliament passed an Act empowering the Government to lend money to the extent of
120,000,000 to shipyards. Has any shipyard taken advantage of this, and is the Government giving any encouragement, by subsidies or in any other way, to shipyards?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No shipbuilder has taken advantage of the Act passed last session. One shipyard applied for it, but the Government did not see fit to grant them the financial aid because they were working on contracts which they had secured before the Act was passed. The Government took the ground that when the Act was passed last year, it was only to encourage the bringing into Canada of new orders. As regards subsidies, that is a matter that will be mentioned when the

Budget is brought down by the Minister of Finance.


Michael Clark: Will the minister tell us exactly what is the position of the Government at the moment in regard to the contract for steel plates?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. member for Red Deer seems to. be quite familiar with the matter. The Government took
40.000	tons on account of the contract for
250.000	tons. The demand was very brisk last year from all parts of the world and was greater than we were able to supply. Then suddenly the demand ceased throughout the world, and although the Government sent a man over to England in November and December to see if he could get orders, he was unable to obtain any. Therefore, the Government cancelled the contract, and any claim that the company may have will have to be settled by the Exchequer Court. In any event, the claim can be only for the remaining tonnage.


Mr. McDONALD:: What is the estimated cost per ton to complete the boats now under construction at Toronto?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The contract was let at $180 a ton. The company unfortunately failed, and while my department called for tenders to have the work finished at a fixed price, we were unable to get anybody to tender on that basis. Several firms tendered on a percentage basis, and the contract to finish the ships was awarded to the Collingwood Shipbuilding Company. I cannot make a positive statement, but I do not think the ships will cost any more than the original contract price of $180 a ton, although I am not, of course, certain of that.


Angus McDonald: How and when were those contracts advertised and who submitted tenders for the same?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: If my memory
serves me aright, the Port Arthur Shipbuilding Company, the Collingwood Shipbuilding Company, the Canadian Vickers, the Three Rivers concern and the Halifax concern were asked, but we got firm bids only from the Port Arthur Shipbuilding Company and the Collingwood Shipbuilding Company.


Angus McDonald: Has the Government any report on the cost of work due to the inefficiency of the class of help now employed in Toronto?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No. We have one of our own men there, and the reports coming into the department from day to day go to show that the work is being done efficiently.


Angus McDonald: How much is being paid on these contracts, first, to the Dominion Shipbuilding Company or the liquidators, and secondly, to the Collingwood Shipbuilding Company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Perhaps the hon. member would go on with any other questions he may have to ask, while the deputy is looking that up.


Angus McDonald: What arrangement
have the Government made with the liquidators relative to the material on hand with the Dominion Shipbuilding Company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: When the Government 'first commenced to let contracts they took the precaution of getting a surety bond from each shipbuilder for 10 per cent of the value of the contract. In addition, we took a lien on all the material that might be in the yard. In case of the failure of a firm, such as the Toronto firm, for instance, we can collect the value of the surety bond, and in addition all the material on the works belongs to the Dominion Government.
In reply to my hon. friend's previous question, the total contract price amounted to $630,000 for each ship, and the amount paid to the company before they went into liquidation amounted to $409,500. The Collingwood Shipbuilding Company are now completing ships on the basis of cost, plus 15 per cent. They are being paid as the work progresses, on the voucher of our man on the work.


Angus McDonald: Is the Government
in possession of information relative to steel prices? Is the Government paying the liquidator the 1921 or the 1919 prices for the steel on hand?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There was a large quantity of steel plate in the yards; I saw it when I was there last fall. The contract for that steel was made before the company went into liquidation, and the Government are standing by it.


Angus McDonald: That will be the 1919 price?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am not sure.


Frank S. Cahill: Would the minister mind repeating what he said with reference to depreciation and a sinking fund?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The operating
company have allowed 2 per cent depreciation on the cost of the ships. That amount of depreciation will be re-invested each year, yielding 5i per cent interest. Therefore, with the 2 per cent depreciation and the interest in the course of 25 years, providing the company's earnings are kept up, there will be enough to write off the entire cost of the fleet.


Frank S. Cahill: If we got this $8,000,000 working in that same direction it might work off some of the liabilities of the country. The minister is really borrowing money to put into a sinking fund. I do not see how he can borrow money, pay interest on it, and at the same time use it as a sinking fund to reduce his obligations. If he had a surplus invested, and had not borrowed the money in the first place, there would be some reason in his argument, but to borrow money and place it in a sinking fund and say that you are going to wipe off the liability with that is not a very sound argument I am afraid.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That is the usual way in a business concern, so far as my judgment goes. The operating company are in a very strong liquid position. I referred to that in my first statement, and therefore did not want to refer to it again this evening.


Frank S. Cahill: They owe one hundred cents on the dollar.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Their current assets show a very nice surplus over current liabilities. They do not owe a bank anything, so they are in a very good liquid position. The only way to write off the excessive cost of the ships is to spread it over a period of years, and I do not think 25 years is too long. I have had their figures checked, and they will be able to do that provided their earnings can be kepi; up. I wish to say to my hon. friend, who understands these things so very well, that there are very few operating companies, if any, that are called upon to make their operating expenses provide for depreciation, as in the present case, and then be expected to earn 5\ per cent on the war cost of the vessels. We are taking it up with the operating company now, and it seems to me we ought to modify that rate of interest, but we have not done so.


Frank S. Cahill: Modifying the interest charge would only be a bookkeeping transaction in any event. The people of Canada are called upon to furnish the money; they have to pay the interest on the debt of Canada. So unless the minister pays the interest on the full amount that he borrowed from the treasury for this company, over which he claims to have no control, it does not matter whether he makes a bookkeeping entry at 3J per cent or at 7 per cent, which is the rate, I believe, the Government are paying now. The country is losing the difference. For the minister to say that he can borrow money to create a sinking fund is surely not good business. If the minister had his fleet paid for, if he had sold stock and paid for his fleet in that way, and the fleet was earning profits so that the minister was able to lay aside a surplus, there might be some force in his argument; but to say that with borrowed money he can create a sinking fund to write off depreciation, I am afraid, is not sound business.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We are not borrowing money to create a sinking fund. If my hon. friend and I had been going to build that fleet, we would have had to borrow the money from some bank or issue securities. Having done so, we would then provide a depreciation fund just the same as this company is doing. It appears quite the usual thing to me.


Frank S. Cahill: Is there not a charge against the Marine Department or against this shipping company? Do they nor agree to pay interest annually amounting to so much?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: 
Frank S. Cahill: Have they paid it?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: 
Frank S. Cahill: But not for 1920?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, they have not earned 5J per cent on the capital cost of the ships, only 2.35 per cent.


Frank S. Cahill: Therefore, you have no money to put into a sinking fund?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Oh yes, we have.


Frank S. Cahill: If you pay your interest you have no money to put into a sinking fund. You are probably $1,000,000 short, and therefore, you have nothing to put into a sinking fund, so it is useless to talk about a singing fund that is going to relieve the situation. You are not paying your interest.


Mr. ELKIN:: It is only a matter of bookkeeping.


Frank S. Cahill: Yes, but the difficulty is it is very expensive bookkeeping for the Canadian people. If the minister was doing the bookkeeping for himself, he might go ou and spend his money and I would not criticise him at all, but in this case it is the money of the Canadian people. I do not like his statement that he has a sinking fund that is going to take care of something when, as a matter of fact, it is not because he has not paid his interest. He has made a loss on operation for the last year and therefore has nothing to place to sinking fund and cannot possibly pay for the ships in twenty-five years or twenty-five hundred years.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There is a surplus of current assets over current liabilities which will enable the company to set aside the amount of depreciation their statement shows.


Frank S. Cahill: Is there a sufficient
amount of current assets to pay interest?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes, and more.


William Duff: The minister says he has set aside $667,000 for depreciation. I understood him to say that 2 per cent this year, and a corresponding amount during the next twenty-five years, would wipe out the $70,000,000.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The company have taken 2 per cent of the value of the ships turned over during the past year, and that 2 per cent amounts to $667,665.46. They will re-invest that at 51 per cent, and the annual interest on the 2 per cent year after year for twenty-five years will accumulate sufficient to write off the cost of the fleet.


William Duff: The minister says that with this $667,000 odd he is going to pay- off the $70,000,000 in twenty years.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, but depreciation every year.


William Duff: How much will you pay off in twenty-five years?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The actuaries
have figured it out. I have had one ship taken at a valuation of a million dollars to make sure that their figures would be right, because I am careful not to put anything but correct information before the House. They have taken a ship valued at a million dollars. Two per cent of that will be $20,000; re-invest that $20,000 at 51 per cent, and write off 2 per cent every 
year; then keep on investing with compound interest on top of compound interest, and in twenty-five years it will equal $1,000,000.


William Duff: The minister says that he has put this $667,000 in the sinking fund, and after doing that he has no money left. Consequently he owes the Finance Department interest_ on the money invested in these ships in 1920, which is $50,000,000. How can any business man put money to rest when he has not paid interest?


Pierre-François Casgrain: It cannot be done.


William Duff: It is absolutely impossible. The minister owes interest, not only for 1920, but also for 1919. If I understood him correctly about an hour ago, when he was making his third speech this evening, he told us that the amount of $500,000 which he paid to the Finance Department in 1919, was all the money he owed that department for interest on money advanced by the Government up to December 31, 1919. Am I correct? Very good. Then if the minister will be good enough to turn to page 1331 of Hansard, he will find that he made the statement that at December 31, 1919, he had twenty-four vessels of a tonnage of 129,000 tons. If the minister will take his pencil and make a calculation he will see that at $192 per ton these twenty-four ships cost $24,768,000.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes, but bear this in mind-


William Duff: I catch your point; let me go on and, if I am wrong, you can correct me. Interest at 5i per cent on $24,768,000 is $1,362,000. If I apprehend what the minister was about to say, it is that all this money was not advanced during the year 1919. Is that what he was going to say? Yes; exactly, the minister nods his head. The minister will not forget that part of that money was advanced in 1918, so that one off-set the other. For instance, he was paying out for the work during the progress of construction, from May or June, 1918, to December 31, 1919, so that he not only owes interest in 1919, but also has not paid interest for 1918. Taking what was advanced in 1918 and what was advanced in 1919, the two years' interest would amount to one year's interest on the total cost of the ships.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I admit quite
frankly that during the progress of the construction of the ships, while moneys were being advanced, the country lost interest; but it is not fair to charge interest

to the operating company until the ships are turned over.


William Duff: It is as broad as it is long.
Some one is losing that interest, whether it is chargeable to capital account or not. The country, in addition to paying $192 per ton from the time the contract is let or the keel is laid, loses that interest, and it makes no difference, so far as the people are concerned, whether the interest comes out of operating account or not. It must be paid, and consequently the minister owes, in addition to the $2,740,000 interest for 1920 which he admits-


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Of course, I cannot tell, without looking it up, what the advances have been. I could not give any idea what the interest would amount to, because I would need to find out how the advances were made and the length of time, and then figure the interest. I do not know what it would be.


William Duff: I agree that it is impossible to tell exactly what the interest is; but it is a fair assumption that he owes the 1920 interest, whether it is $2,700,000 or not, I do not know; it a question of degree.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is $1,828,000.


William Duff: Does that include also the
interest that would be due on progress payments on the ships?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.


William Duff: That would be another


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not know.


William Duff: Neither do I; but it would
be somewhere around there. Taking the minister's own figures, the interest due for 1920 would be in the neighbourhood of $2,000,000. Although the Canadian Government Merchant Marine paid into the trasury $500,000 for 1919, there is still owing some interest for 1919 and 1918, either by the merchant marine or by the Marine Department.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That is drawing
a very fine line.


William Duff: When the minister says
that he is putting aside some $667,000, and is making a good showing, I think it is quite fair to say that he has not done so well, because he owes about $2,500,000 or $3,000,000 interest.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That would not
be fair. I am quite willing to leave it fo my experienced friend, the hon. member
for Shelburne and Queen's (Mr. Fielding). This company is operating the ships and we have to put them on a strictly business basis. We could not charge them interest during the progress of construction of the ships, because that would not be fair. I say that the Government of Canada would have to take care of that interest, but it must not come into this statement at all; it has no relevancy to this statement.


William Duff: I agree with the minister in the statement that until the ships are handed over to the Government Marine, that company should not pay interest; but that does not effect the position of the people of Canada. Somebody certainly lost that interest. If it is not added to the capital cost of the ships, and I presume from what the minister said it is not, then instead of having expended $50,000,000 on capital account, as the statement shows, we will expend more, or else he owes the Finance Department a certain amount of money for interest which has been added to the capital account.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It was not the
policy of the Government-my hon. friend will allow me to make this explanation- when I was a harbour commissioner for the port of Montreal to pay the interest on the capital expenditure of many millions of dollars while the development was going on, or until the work was finished and it was put in a position to pay its own way. The hon. member for Shelburne and Queen's will quite readily remember that, and without taking up the time of the committee I could name a port in Canada where millions of dollars have been spent and no interest was received during the construction and none has been received since.


William Duff: But, these works were in a different position.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: They are national works.


William Duff: They are to this extent,- that the minister is coming here and telling us that he has made a profit on this business. It may be a good policy in the case of the harbour works in Montreal, where all they get is a certain amount of revenue and which works are not expected to pay just like ships pay.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: They pay their interest.


William Duff: If they pay their interest so much the better, but this is a different policy altogether. Harbour works are an

entirely different thing from the Government launching into a shipbuilding programme. However, I do not want to get diverted from my speech. I will answer the remarks of the hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Cockshutt) by saying that if it is good business for the Government to go into the ship operating business, it would be equally good policy for the Government to build trawlers in these yards and send them out to Prince Rupert, Lunenburg, Halifax and Canso and operate those same trawlers. The Government has just as much right to engage in the fishing industry as they have to engage in the shipping business. The Government may just as well engage in the refining of sugar or engage in the buying of Canadian wheat. Seeing that practicaly half a crop remains in Western Canada unsold, why not go into the wheat buying business in order to help the farmers. Why not buy all the wheat in the western grain elevators and everywhere else, for that would he carrying out the same principle? Why not buy agricultural implements, and I say this with the greatest possible respect for my hon. friend (Mr. Cockshutt).


Stanley Edward Elkin: The hon. member for Lunenburg is a shipping man. He has a knowledge of the Atlantic ring and the position that Canada and Canadian shippers found themselves in with regard to the transAtlantic trade. Will he say it is not good business for the Canadian Government to place themselves in the position of building and owning ships so that they can open up trade routes for the benefit of Canada and Canadian shipping?


William Duff: In answer to my hon. friend I would say that the Canadian Government ships have not been opening up trade routes. To every port where the Canadian Government Merchant Marine ships have gone since they were launched, other Canadian vessels have been going for years past. These routes have been served by other lines of Canadian steamships for 150 years past. It is all nonsense to say that these ships of the Canadian Government have increased Canadian business; they are running all around looking for freight. In the Halifax Herald of to-day my hon. friend will find it stated that one of the Government ships is leaving Halifax to go to Portland. Another one is bringing a cargo from Buenos Aires to Philadelphia. That is the way in which these steamers of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine are helping Canadian trade. The
[Mr. Duff.}
minister tells us what great things they are doing in the way of developing Canadian trade. I would like my hon. friend to turn to the report of the Department of Trade and Comemrce and see what evidence he can find there of that. The minister has a line of ships running to Brazil, and to hear him talk a minute ago one would imagine that nobody ever took any business to Brazil from Canada before. Why Canadian sailing ships have been going from St. John, Halifax, and-other Canadian ports to Brazil for the last one hundred and fifty years. My hon. friend from St. John knows that. It is not the Government owned ships only that have been doing this business.


Stanley Edward Elkin: Not on regularly established trade routes.


William Duff: My hon. friend must know that if there is no freight to be carried no ships are required. The ships to which I have alluded have always carried freight if there was any freight to be carried. Now as to the trade with Brazil, I find these figures on page 6 of the report of the Department of Trade and Commerce: Brazil -1914, $267,858; 1918, $974,368. That was before there were any ships belonging to the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. In 1919, and this would be for the year ending March 31-and of course before the minister had very many ships-the trade had increased to $4,000,000; but in 1920 when the minister had opened this particular route, as the hon. member for St. John calls it, the exports to Brazil had dropped to $2,703,000. So you see the minister's steamers are not doing very much to open up trade routes to Brazil and, as I said a moment ago, sailing ships from St. John and Halifax have been carrying the products of Canada to Brazil for the last one hundred and fifty years and there was never any complaint. Now the minister's ships are doing the business which these sailing ships were formerly doing. Vessels representing an investment of millions have been tied up because the Government has embarked on this scheme-that is where the whole trouble lies. I could read the shipments from Canada to other countries. I could make a comparison between shipments in 1914 and shipments in 1918 and 1920. There has been an increase on account of the increased cost of the goods. My hon. friend knows the cost of merchandise is perhaps two hundred per cent greater than it was in 1914 and yet the minister says

we are doing more business because these ships are on the ocean. Why there is nothing in the statement when you analyze it and learn exactly what it means. I repeat that these ships are not opening up trade routes, they are going around looking for freight. They are carrying products to New York, they are loading cargoes in Portland, Baltimore, or somewhere else to carry across the ocean, and so on.
Now to get back to the question of the interest account, because I want this thing straightened out, I say that the minister cannot very well claim that because he had $667,000 at rest for the first year and has not paid his interest for 1918, or 1919, or 1920, he has any surplus, or any money, at rest. The very first thing he must do is to pay interest on the charges before he talks of putting money to rest account. In estimating this interest I take the cost of those steamers which were put in operation up to December 31, 1919, at $192 a ton. I think I am safe in saying that that figure applies to the whole sixty-three ships, and that the cost is on the average $192 a ton. In figuring at $192 a ton for the 1919 ships and the 1920 ships the minister is far too conservative. I think he will find that instead of costing $192 they averaged $202 a ton because they represented the heaviest contracts.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I might inform
the hon. member that the lowest price was $167.50, other contracts were let at $180, and the highest price paid was $215 a ton. It has been very carefully figured out that on the entire programme the average will be $191.50.
Mr. DUFP': That is exactly what I am saying, but I am trying to show that the first ships constructed by the minister cost $215 a ton.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, $180.


William Duff: He paid $215 for some.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: For one or two.


William Duff: And the ships that are being built now are being constructed for a lesser price titan any of the others.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Some are, some are not.


William Duff: I mean you did not contract for any ships for $167.50 in 1918 or 1919.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The lowest price we paid in 1919 was $180 a ton for the ships built by the Coughlan Shipbuilding
Company of Vancouver, and one by Wallace at $167.50.


William Duff: Consequently that figure of $167.50 brought down the average.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That might be, b.ut when the 63 ships are finished the cost to the country will be $191.50.


William Duff: 
Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That does not
come under the Department of Marine and Fisheries at all. If my hon. friend will direct that question to the Minister of Finance he will be able to give him the information required. It is money the Government of Canada loaned to that shipbuilding company through the Finance Department.


William Duff: Do I understand the minister to say that the Finance Department made the contract with these people?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


William Duff: Now, the Toronto shipyards. I understand the minister to say that the contract he made with these people is on a cost plus basis. What money had the Government already advanced to the shipyard before the new arrangement was made? And what difficulty, if any, arose with the workmen in the yard?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: $409,000 was the amount paid. We have not had any difficulty with the men in the yards at Toronto. More skilled and unskilled workmen have been offering their services than are really needed. When the war was on that yard paid the highest wages of any shipbuilding yard in Canada, 90 cents an hour. When we came to let this contract on a cost plus basis, naturally I knew that the
1 a.m. Collingwood Shipbuilding Company were not interested in

what wages would be paid, because the higher the wages the greater would be the amount of cost plus they would get from the Government; therefore, the maximum scale of wages was fixed at 75 cents which was the current wage in Toronto at the time.


William Duff: I understood there was a strike and that the men would not accept the wages the Government offered.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: A few men of the Trades and Labour Council may have struck, but the yard had more men than they really needed.


William Duff: I understand that the number of men who were previously employed in the yard had some disagreement with the Government about wages, and therefore struck for better treatment. Will the minister explain what happened?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: A few of the old men who were employed by the Toronto Shipbuilding Company at ninety cents an hour for an eight-hour day were not satisfied to take a drop to seventy-five cents an hour, and they left.


William Duff: Is the minister aware of the fact that the men now employed by the company in the place of those skilled men are not capable shipwrights?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I know that assertion has been made, but the Collingwood Shipbuilding Company have demonstrated fully to the Government that they have one of the best equipped yards in the Dominion and that their workmen are thoroughly skilled. Besides that, the Marine Department have got their own man there, and I can assure the hon. member that the work is being done just as efficiently as in any yard in Canada.


William Duff: How much money was paid to the Vancouver shipbuilding companies, and how much are the vessels under construction likely to cost?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We were able to make a much more advantageous arrangement at Prince Rupert than we were at Toronto, and the Wallace Shipbuilding Company are completing those ships for eight per cent over labour and any material they have to buy. I do not know exactly what the ships are going to cost, but I should say it will be a little bit less than the original contract, because that was one of the highest contracts for that type of ship that the
fMr. Ballantyne.]
Government let; it was during' the war and the price was $198 a ton.


William Duff: Has the minister any information in regard to the work done on the Canadian Inventor?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: None.


William Duff: Has he received any complaint about the shaft being short after the ship was launched and taken over by the Government? And had the Government to spend a large amount of money to put in a new shaft?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have not any
knowledge.


William Duff: Of course, I can understand that it is impossible for the minister to give the information which the committee should have before they pass this item. It seems to me there should be somebody here-*


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Is my hon. friend referring to something he heard when out at Vancouver?	-


William Duff: Oh, no.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not know whether this ship that my hon. friend has in mind was built by the Coughlan Shipbuilding Company or not. My deputy tells me that the Canadian Inventor was built by the Coughlan Shipbuilding Company. There was something wrong with the tail shaft and the Government inspector made them take it out and put it back without any extra cost to the Government.


William Duff: I have another complaint with regard to the Canadian Inventor. Perhaps there is nothing in it.


Peter McGibbon: There is nothing in any of them.


William Duff: The hon. gentleman does
not know anything about the subject.


Peter McGibbon: It is just like your speech.


William Duff: I should like the hon. member for Muskoka to be courteous.


Peter McGibbon: It is just like your speech; there is nothing in it.


Georges Henri Boivin: (Mr. A. Thompson) : Order.


William Duff: I was going to ask a question; now I will read the whole article. It has to do with the treatment accorded to the crew of the Canadian Inventor. It
says:

Complaining that the treatment accorded them after their ship had put to sea was far from that represented in the ship's articles and appealing to the public for an investigation to "give them a square deal," ten members -of the crew of the C.G.M.M. freighter Canadian Inventor, which reached Calcutta on Monday, have addressed a communication to the World. This reads as follows:
"S.S. Canadian Inventor, at sea.
"We read with pride of the work proposed-


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not wish to interrupt the hon. member, but I may say that I have seen that article.


William Duff: But the hon. member for Muskoka has not heard it.


Peter McGibbon: I am quite willing to give to it the value that usually attaches to my hon. friend's remarks.


William Duff: Did the hon. member put a question? If he did I would like him to repeat it. The item continues:
"S.S. Canadian Inventor,
At Sea.
"We read with pride of the work proposed and already accomplished by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine Service in opening up various trades between the United Kingdom, Australia, India and the Orient. Prouder still were we when we read that the ships of the service were built in Canada and manned by Canadians; in fact, our pride soared so high that we overlooked many of the essentials which go to perfect the whole system.


Stanley Edward Elkin: What is the hon. gentleman reading from,-Robinson Crusoe?


An hon. MEMBER:: Read it over again.


William Duff: I will do so for the benefit of the senior member for St. John (Mr. Elkin) who evidently did not hear my reading of the article so far. It is from the Vancouver World and is dated March 8, It reads as follows:
Seamen on Canadian Ship in Complaint
Crew of C.G.M.M. Inventor Say Treatment Shameful-Were Rationed
Vancouver, March 8.-The Vancouver World says:
Complaning that the treatment accorded them after their ship had put to sea was far from that represented in the ship's articles and appealing to the public for an investigation to "give them a square deal," ten members of the crew of the C.G.M.M. freighters Canadian Inventor, which reached Calcutta on Monday, have addressed a communication to the World. This reads as follows :
"S.S. Canadian Inventor At Sea.
"We read with pride of the work proposed and already accomplished by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine Service in opening up various trades between the United Kingdom,
Australia, India and the Orient. Prouder still were we when we read that the ships of the service were built in Canada and manned by Canadians; in fact, our pride soared so high that we overlooked many of the essentials which go to perfect the whole system.
"One, if not the most essential, is the crews of these ships which have started out to do so much. This is the fact we wish to draw to the public notice, the inhuman treatment handed out to us, the indispensable pieces of machinery which go to make up the perfect machine. We say indispensable, and so we'are, although the government does not classify us as such.
"All returned men and experienced seamen welcomed the service as a means of employment and ready to take advantage of the opening offered rather than throw themselves on the already overburdened list of unemployed.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Louder, louder.


William Duff: Mr. Chairman, I wish you would try to keep order.


Peter McGibbon: I rise to a point of order. The hon. member is reading his speech.


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. A. Thompson):: The hon. member is reading a quotation from a newspaper, the name of which he has given. He is, therefore, perfectly in order.
"At the time of signing deep sea articles, which were read out to us before we gave our signatures, the conditions seemed up to the standard of other services, and while alongside the government wharf, during the time we were loading, conditions seemed as represented. But as soon as we got to sea conditions changed and from then on have gone from bad to worse, until things have come to such a state that one would hardly imagine that we were human beings at all.
"On mustering before the commanding officer of the ship to request sufficient food to feed healthy men, the chief stewart was called and we were informed by him that we were on rations, nothing of which was ever read out of the articles. Even these meager rations ran out two weeks before we reached our first port of call, and we have had emergency rations ever since. We all put up with 'bully beef' and hard tack, some of us for over three years whilst overseas, realizing the necessity of it, but there is no reason for such conditions to exist today.
"The three meals put together each day would not make one square meal for a healthy man. Then, added to the lack of food, was the condition of the weather-not one real fine day ever since we left port. For days snow, ice, rain, sleet and heavy seas washing fore and aft, breaking up the deck cargo, which had to be re-lashed every time, drenching us to the skin day after day ; not so much as a hot dnink when we came below.
"Another thing, in watches, we are on duty day and night, and in all weathers there is a period of fifteen hours without a meal. Take, for instance, the 4 to 8 watch, considered the best, going on watch at 4 p.m., relieved for supper for half an hour at 5 p.m. ; then relieved again by the next watch at 8 p.m.; turn into a nic( bed consisting of a straw pillow and mattresses and one pair of blankets ; called at 3.30 a.m. to

get ready for watch at 4 a.m.; not relieved until 8 a.m., with not as much as a cup of warm cocoa going on or coming off, with the thermometer down to 10 deg. of frost inside the wheelhouse as it has been day after day.
"Bear in mind it is not the cold or the weather we complain of-we are not fair weather sailors. It is the state of the inner man to cope with these conditions that we object to. We give these details of duty because there are a great number of people not acquainted with the duties aboard ship.


Alfred Thompson: I would remind the hon. member who is speaking of rule 18, section 2, which reads:
Mr. Speaker or the Chairman, after having called the attention of the House or of the committee to the conduct of a member who persists .in irrelevance or a tedious repetition either of his own arguments or of the arguments used by other members in debate, may direct him to discontinue his speech.
I do not wish to make that ruling, but I would draw it to the attention of the hon. member who, I am sure, will use his own good judgment in the matter.


William Duff: Mr. Chairman, speaking to
the point of order, I wish to say that I have not been guilty of tedious repetitions; I repeated the reading of the article at the express wish of hon. members sitting on the Government side. I think you are wrong, therefore, in calling me to order.


Alfred Thompson: I did not call the hon. gentleman to order; I simply directed his attention to the rule.


William Duff: We are not a bunch of illiterates, we have to serve our time and not all in a position to do so as cadets. The sea is the same as every other profession. It has changed, and the men of the fo'c'sle to-day are going to be the officers on the bridge to-morrow.
We hear some accuse us of being agitators, radicals, Bolsheviks. Nothing of the sort, we are human beings appealing for human treatment.


Georges Henri Boivin: Order.


William Duff: Do you want me to go on?


Georges Henri Boivin: I was merely trying to make order so that the hon. member could proceed.


William Duff: We realize there is no support given to anybody using radical and direct-actions, so encourage us to be patient and give your co-operation in our endeavours to get better conditions.
We are making this public appeal in the hopes that there are some in authority who will read it and make it their business to at least investigate the matter and give us a square deal
(Signed) Robert C. Gray, J. P. Bruce A Perris, S. Bullock, G. Davie, C. Headley, G.' W. Burney, A. Muir, R. H. Traeksley, A. Malcolm.
I would like to inquire from the minister, who says that this matter has been called
[The Chairman.]
to his attention, if the management of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine has communicated with the captain and officers of the Canadian Inventor and found out whether this story is true or not.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: As the hon. member is well aware, the operation and management of the ships are entirely in the hands of the operating company. The article was merely brought to my attention by my private secretary, but not to deal with, and I would not have dealt with it, had it been brought to my attention for that purpose, because the matter is one that belongs solely to the management to deal with.


William Duff: I understand the positior the minister is in; that the minister is nol the one who deals with the matter. I understand that the merchant marine is under the managing company the same as the railways. But as the minister has given us a statement of the operating expenses of the company for last year, and as this has to do with operation, I think I am quite justified, although I do not want to press the question, in bringing the matter to the minister's attention, and I should like to ask him if he would not make a note of this and get somebody to write to the management of the ships and ask them to take up the matter with the captain and see whether this story is true or not.
I thought I saw the hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Cockshutt) come in a few moments ago. In the excellent address which he gave us, he spoke about the reasons why this shipbuilding programme or policy was a good one. He quoted from a number of newspapers to show that he was justified in making that assertion. In the few remarks which I made to-night, I also made a few quotations to show that other newspapers did not have the same faith in this shipbuilding programme and especially in the profits which the management of the ships told us that they made last year. To prove to the hon. member for Brantford that some of the newspapers are not very well satisfied with this policy or the way in which the ships are being managed, I would like to read an article which appeared in the Montreal Gazette after I had made my speech.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. member must know and if he does not know, I can tell him something about my own city. This is a free country, as Sir Wilfrid Laurier used to say, and every man has a right

to express his opinion. In the city of Montreal the majority of business men are absolutely opposed to public ownership for reasons which I do not need to tell the hon. member; the French press hold different views, so what the Montreal Gazette publishes is not surprising at all. In view of the late hour, unless the hon. gentleman is very anxious to read the article which merely reiterates what the Montreal Gazette has already stated; that is its opposition to Government-ownership.


William Duff: I am sure I am not anxious to keep the minister here; in fact, I think we might adjourn. I have a question or two to ask as to contracts.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Go ahead.


William Duff: I will read this article first. The hon. member for Brantford, as I said a moment ago, quoted from a number of newspapers, and I read from some newspapers to show that they did not have the same faith in this shipbuilding programme as regards profits. I am glad to hear the minister say that this is a free country. We thought it was not, and we are glad that the ban is lifted and that no more Orders in Council will be passed. This is an editorial from the Montreal Gazette of Saturday, April 9, headed "The Merchant Marine:"
The debatable point in connection with Canada's merchant marine is that of policy. When the construction of ships was undertaken by the Government in the spring- of 1918 there was no dissent in Parliament, the action being generally approved as a war measure. At that time the sea tonnage of the world was being decimated by German submarines, resulting in a serious shortage of ships, and it was as necessary to the successful prosecution of the war to provide means of transportation overseas as to raise reinforcements for the army. Cost of construction was a secondary consideration. The cry was for ships and more ships ; and to avert the disaster threatened by the enemy submarines the United States engaged in an extensive shipbuilding programme and Canada in as large a one as her resources permitted. There can, therefore, be no profitable discussion as to the wisdom of the policy in the circumstances of its inception, and controversy should be confined to the sole question of the prudence of retaining the ships and operating them through a Government agency at the charge of the Canadian people.
Upon this point there is a division of opinion. Many persons, unconnected with the shipping business, are convinced that a Government service cannot profitably compete with private companies on the sea more than on the land; while there are others who from national priide, or a less worthy motive, are captivated by the idea of Canadian ships flying the Canadian flag, ploughing the seven seas, and carrying Canadian commerce to the four corners of the earth. There is a patriotic sentiment aroused by the picture which the Minister of Marine has not neglected to evoke. But business is business; and it is very dubious whether the taxpayers will long applaud an appeal to patriotic pride that involves dipping their hands deep into their pockets for no practical purpose. The Canadian mercantile marine could probably have been sold, both the completed and uncompleted vessels, a year and a half or two years ago at cost price; to-day they would scarcely realize 40 per cent of cost, and it is very far from certain that a reaction upward to price will occur before the ships have run their course and1 been scrapped. The Government, however, resolved to engage in the shipping trade for reasons which had no relation whatever to the purpose of the original policy, and were wholly an afterthought. Those reasons, as stated by Mon. Mr. Ballantyne, were the desirability of linking a steamship service with the national railway, and the means supplied by the ships of opening up new trade routes and expanding Canada's foreign commerce. The Canadian Pacific had an ocean fleet as an adjunct to its land, and why not the Government? And so, superimposed upop the National railway deficit, we have the deficit of the Canadian Mercantile Marine to be met out of the taxes upon the people.
It is pertinent to point out the fundamental difference between rail and water transportation. In the case of the former the road bed is restricted, while in the case of the latter it is as wide as the ocean. There can be no monopoly of business in respect of ships. Vessels of any and all countries can ply their trade in the ports of the world; there is no such thing as right of way, but free and open competition, and ever the ship comes to seek the cargo. If the National Railway requires ships to carry its over-seas traffic, the ships can be had for the asking without the expenditure of a single dollar on capital account. If the ocean-borne traffic is unprofitable the ship owners bear the loss, and the Canadian taxpayer escapes. The fact that Governments cannot successfully compete on even terms with private enterprise remains as a cardinal objection to the maintenance of the Canadian mercantile marine, and if it is contended that the National Railway requires to be supplemented with a steamship service, the rejoinder is that this service can be secured without price to the people and with equal advantage to the railway by arrangement with privately owned steamship companies.
The Canadian marine venture has already involved the loss of many millions of capital in consequence of the drop in the value of ships, and involved the loss "of at least $2,000,000 on operating account in 1920, under the most favourable statement of accounts. It is most desirable that Canada's foreign trade should be enlarged, that new markets should be sought, that ships carrying Canadian products should reach countries not hitherto tapped, but $2,000.000 in the way of subsidies to steamship lines, over and above earnings, will go a long way towards this end, while at the same time removing the risks of heavy loss to the taxpayers now incurred. The Minister of Marine is firmly convinced of the prudence and advantage of the mercantile marine, and he is an experienced business man. But 'the Minister of Railways is also convinced that the National Railway is a fine proposition. It may be so; but unfortunately for the Canadian people these

convictions 'have loaded uipon them an enormous debt and an enormous deficit; have strained the credit of Canada ; have necessitated very-heavy taxation; and hold out no hope of amelioration for many years while the fatuous policy of Government ownership is persisted in.
That is what the Montreal Gazette says, and I am sure that paper is as much to be depended upon as the paper from which my hon. friend read. I would like a little more information before I sit down. I notice by Volume II of the Auditor General's report for 1920, page 0-101, the following:
Canadian Otter 4,350 tons, deadweight, at 5215 per ton; instalments paid, 10, 5794,962.50; 'tween decks $29,850 ; re-adjustment of exchange, etc., $1,S99.33, total, 5826,711.83, less paid in 1918-19, 5140,287.50.
So that in addition to paying $215 per ton deadweight there has been paid for 'tween decks $29,850, and an item of $1,899.33 for re-adjustment of exchange. Consequently the ship cost that much more.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Would the hon.
member expect any shipbuilder to put in 'tween decks for love?


William Duff: No, I would not, but we
have been given to understand by the minister that these ships averaged $192 per ton. What I want to find out is whether these extras were included jin figuring the average cost?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Certainly not. I
might tell my hon. friend that there have been a great many extras. The refrigerating plant for instance, that goes into these ships is extra, so are the oil burners and many other things.
Mr. 1DUFF: ; Well then, these ships must have cost more than $192 per ton, which was the figure the minister gave to the House. I do not hold the minister responsible, because he probably just made the statement which was passed to him, but certainly when these extras are added in, the cost must be more than $192. The minister has admitted that is correct.
Mr. BALLANTYNECertainly.


William Duff: Consequently, the price
of $192 should be corrected, and the correction go out to the public. I also notice that the Canadian Squatter is down here at $215 per ton. She also had to pay $29,854 for 'tween decks. This ship therefore cost $223 instead of $215 per ton. Now if every ship has cost $7 per ton more than the amount the minister stated, it means that the average price is $199 per ton instead of $192. Then I notice in 
connection with the Canadian Voyageur, 4,300 tons dead weight, at $207 per ton, -"excess dead weight 275 tons at $207.'' Would that be extra?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is the tota
ascertained dead-weight.


William Duff: The contract was for a
4,300-ton boat. When the ship was ready for delivery, the surveyor from the department, I suppose, went on board and measured the ship and found that instead of being 4,300 tons deadweight capacity she was 4,575.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That is right.


William Duff: In his statement did the
minister figure this at 4,300 tons or 4,375?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The total ascertained deadweight.


William Duff: Then in the case of the
Canadian Pioneer I see here extras: wood bulkhead, $2,268.27; canvas $110; additional awnings $1,901,72; lamp chimneys $5.25; altering gunner's room $680; refrigerator plant $1,850:	That seems a pretty large
item for awnings, and I do not think the Government should have had to pay extra for wood bulkheads, which are certainly a part of the vessel.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Canadian
Pioneer was going to India and everybody knows what a hot climate India has. The operating company asked to be allowed to put awnings on the boat. The bulkheads do not amount to much.


William Duff: That is satisfactory.
Then I notice an extra for the Canadian Miller, steel cargo derrick at $5,500. Would that be part of the vessel's equipment?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The operating
company asked for a heavy derrick to handle the heavy cargoes that the ships would carry.


William Duff: Would not the ordinary derricks available be sufficient to put cargoes on board?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not very heavy lifts.


William Duff: I see here an item for adjustment of exchange. Why should the Government pay exchange when the contract was made in Canada? And then I see something about a tail-end shaft. It seems to me that this is something which a ship must have if she is to go to sea.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The operating
company asked for a spare tail-end shaft in case anything happened the original one and we allowed them to procure it.


William Duff: Will the minister say why the Government should have to pay exchange when the contract was made in Canada?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: When steel was
sold at a fixed price and they could not get delivery in Canada owing to heavy demand and bought in the United States, it was only reasonable that we should allow the difference in exchange.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


William Duff: Hon. gentlemen opposite do not seem anxious to obtain the particulars of these items for the information of the country and I will not go further; but in round numbers, the extras which I notice would amount to perhaps $50,000. As I understand it, these ships cost $50,000 in addition to the contract price.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.
Mr. PIERRE CASGRAIN (Charlevoix. Montmorency: (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, I had no intention of taking part in this discussion, specially at this late hour, but after the definite and sweeping assertions made last night in the House by the Minister of Marine, at the outset of his statement concerning the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, I deem it advisable to define my attitude in this connection. The minister declared that the whole country is satisfied and that this year, to use his own words, the said company could come before the House and the public with a "creditable showing." As for me, Mr. Chairman, I am not satisfied with the declarations of the Minister of Marine, and I maintain that the situation of his new Merchant Marine Company is not satisfactory, for all the money which we put ini this undertaking, I think we had a right to expect a better result. One has no need to go very far to realize that this result is not what was expected. We find at page 31, of the Report of the Department of Railways which was brought down a little while ago, that among the subsidiary companies, are The Canadian National Telegraph Company, the Great North-Western Telegraph Company of Canada, and, at the bottom of the page this other white elephant, the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, Limited-
Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Marine, has boasted that many newspapers had approved his policy, and had expressed the opinion that the financial statement presented this year to the House, was very satisfactory. A moment ago, I saw the hon. minister hand over certain papers to the hon. member for Brantford, so that the latter might keep the floor for a little while. The minister will allow me, I hope to read to him a few extracts from the report of the Bank of Montreal, dated the 6th of December last. It, is to be found in the "Standard" of Saturday, December 11th, 1920. I want to be reasonable, and I shall not read the whole report. I shall be content with quoting a few of its most important statements, and shall afterwards ask my hon. friend, the Minister of Marine, what he intends doing should he agree with the comments made by the President of the Bank of Montreal, when submitting his last financial statement.
Here is what the report says under the caption "Government Owned Railways and ships ":
Canada to-day has a very large National Railway System which is being operated at a heavy loss, thereby increasing the load on an already heavily tax-burdened country. Sooner or later some means must be found to relieve this situation. Some confidently believe that by proper public administration of the lines, deficits can be cut down.
It is the President of the Bank of Montreal who speaks thus. He adds-
My own view is that the proper solution will be found if the Government, at the earliest feasible time, divests itself of ownership and operation of the roads and places them under corporate control upon terms fair to the country and upon conditions that will ensure the service for which the construction of the lines was undertaken.
And further on the President of the bank speaks as follows:
In the same connection, and speaking for myself alone, it would appear desirable that no more national expenditure should be made for the building of ships."
Of course, he speaks only as president of the bank, but I wish to draw the attention of the chairman and the members of this committee upon the eminent qualifications, the high personal standing of the president of the Bank of Montreal. Though I may not he an intimate friend of his, I may not eat at his table, I may not visit at his house, I may not meet him at the club, I say that no one can deny his influence in the financial circles of Canada; he is an intimate friend of the Minister of Marine,


who is often met in company with his friends of the Bank of Montreal, of the Royal Trust of Montreal, of the Sherwin-Williams, and of many other powerful companies, of which the Minister of Marine is either one of the chesty and ponderous directors or shareholders.
Mr. Chairman, allow me further to quote certain other statements of the president of the Bank of Montreal-


Mr.   CHAIRMAN@: I understand the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Peck) is rising to a point of order.


Mr. PECK:: No, I wish to ask the hon. gentleman a question. I wish to inquire if Lord Shaughnessy is not on the Directorate of the Bank of Montreal?


Pierre-François Casgrain: The books speak for themselves, I did not look at them. You can inquire for yourself. The blue book and the other books will tell you better than I can.


Georges Henri Boivin: Order.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. member does not know if that is so?


Pierre-François Casgrain: I do not. You know more than I do. That is why I am here and you are there.


Georges Henri Boivin: I must remind hon. gentlemen on both sides that even at this late hour it would be well for hon. members to address the Chair.


Pierre-François Casgrain: (Translation). Mr. Chairman, I willingly abide by your decision. Since I have the honour of representing the county of Charlevoix in this House, I realized that when, intent on having our views accepted, we put in our way of expressing them more vim perhaps than the occasion justified, we often regretted that some of your decisions did not favour us as much as we would have wished; but no one ever complained.
While a programme of ship-building during the war was commendable, subsequent developments dictate a modified policy. In June, 1914, the world tonnage totalled 49,000,000 tons; in June, 1920, it has risen to 57,300,000 tons, and, in addition, at the end of September this year there were 7,565,000 tons under construction. Tonnage at present exceeds requirements, and in expectation of rate reduction and shrinkage in earnings, construction abroad has already been arrested, and empty tonnage is now laid up in many ports. There is no ground for the belief that this condition will quickly pass. The United States recently failed to secure bids for standard ships ; Japan has cancelled orders for 100,000,000 tons in his own shipyards, and Norway is cancelling orders in Great Britain.

These factors constitute, in my opinion, a danger signal that Canada might well heed and stop all further new construction.
Mr. Chairman, such was in the month of December last, the opinion of the president of the Bank of Montreal who, as I said a moment ago, reflects the sentiments of the financiers of the metropolis, and of Quebec and the whole country as well.
We have read-I have for my part-the reports of several other banks issued since then and in no other report from a bank or a financial institution supposed .to be reputable or of any importance have I found a single word of commendation or approval concerning the new policy of the Government Merchant Marine. On the contrary, the president and the directors of the Bank of Montreal, who are the friends of the Minister of Marine, are giving him in the words to which I have just called the attention of this House the most solemn warning that could be given to a public man and to a good friend, by saying:	"Sir, stop; you have done enough;
that might have been all very well during the war; we could have needed it in the beginning, but there is a time when we must stop; otherwise, whatever good we might have expected from that policy will be set to naught by the deficits which will pile up in the future." Such is the substance of opinion uttered by the president of the Bank of Montreal and the directors of that financial institution.
What is happening to-day in this House? In contradiction to that warning, we see the hon. minister asking for eight million and a few odd hundred thousand dollars to go on with the programme initiated two or three years ago, when some necessity may have then existed. Now that necessity has vanished; nevertheless, the minister comes and tells us:	"Vote that sum of money; I
need it and I need it at once."
The hon. minister told us a moment ago: "We shall pass this item and we will be at it the night through."
Mr. Chairman, for my part, if we were to remain here the whole night, I am willing to do so, but I don't intend to let the item pass before I have the opportunity of entering my protest on behalf of the constituents I am representing in this House, and of the party to which I have the honour to belong.
Mr. Chairman, there must be a reason for the presistency in that policy. Has the minister given any? Quite the contrary, he told us and I have taken it down: "Pros-

pects are not very good now." Well, Mr. Chairman, if the future forebade nothing better than we had in the past, instead of continuing this policy, would it not be better to put up with a loss and to suspend work on some ships which can no longer be of any use, rather than wait for what may turn up, relying on a better market in years to come, and ip the expectation of getting at most a paltry amount which would not cover the interest upon the money's voted and expended this year?
I am amazed when I see the hon. minister and his friends offering reasons which do not hold, and are quite conflicting. A moment ago, we had it from the hon. member from Brantford that it was good policy because it had given work to returned soldiers and to unemployed men, and because at this time the shipbuilding industry is flourishing. I ask you, Mr. Chairman, in all that the hon. Minister of Marine has stated to-day, with a view to show the soundness of the Government that this policy, is there any mention of how many returned soldiers have been put to work in the shipyards? He has not mentioned one. Nor did he tell us how many of these unemployed, who, not long ago, were in the streets of Montreal, clamouring for bread and storming the restaurants, had been given work in the shipyards?
Surely, had those people been employed in the ship yards the Government has assisted through this policy of a merchant marine, we would not have the spectacle which is to be seen in Montreal, Toronto and elsewhere, and there would not be people depending to-day upon public charity for a living. Nor would we have the hon. member for Brantford asking us, as if Parliament was a charitable institution, to continue this policy in order to prevent the unemployed and the famished to die of hunger.
When it is a question of voting an item, as the one we are debating this evening, we should take all the means possible so as to ascertain whether the policy proposed is one which is sound and co-ordinated, and if in passing this item, benefit will be derived not only for the eastern section of the country, the Halifax, the Vancouver and the province of Quebec dockyards or any other place but if the whole country will benefit in any way. I question whether the hon. minister has shown us, the other day and the other night, when he brought down his report of our merchant marine, that he
had made good use of the money we voted in past years?
I ask myself if, considering these circumstances, we are justified to-day in voting the amount of $8,000,000 as the minister desires?
Mr. Chairman, one thing strikes me:
It is that when the Government wishes to promote a rather difficult policy, in many cases, their ablest men are not called upon to do it. When it comes down to a railway undertaking, the hon. member for Grenville (Mr. Reid), who directs that department, is called upon to initiate all kinds of schemes more or less acceptable, and as I mentioned it when I had the occasion of criticising his estimates last year, no [DOT] better advocate can be found. Whoever listens to him, feels convinced that even with a poor case something good will turn up, providing that his pleadings are sufficiently stretched out and loud-to bury the contentious voices, thus leading all to believe that he is right. 'Now that we are dealing with the Marine Department, the Government, to defend its policy, chooses one of its friends, the hon. member for St. Lawrence, the present Minister of Marine.
I must say to the Government, that they were not so happy in their choice, for since the Minister of Marine is at the head of that department, he has shown, I shall not say inability, but has not given proof of the same foresight, sagacity and experience, that he has shown for his own interest and that of companies, such as the Sherwin-Williams and others of which he was a director, or a shareholder. I might even say, if I wished to be a little harsh, that the hon. minister is a flaw, the stumbling-block in the Government, and the sooner he will disappear, the better it will be, not only for the Government, but for the whole country.
When we weigh what he has accomplished, and consider his policy and the results which have followed, he can be termed a perfect cipher.
The hon. minister is of much importance, perhaps too much. This is the reason why he is unable to bring to the administration of| this department, all the vigour and energy that one should expect from the head of so important a department. For this reason I refuse to vote the item of $8,000,-000-which he asks this evening. This, I do in the interest of my county and my constituents, also in the interest of my province and in order to be faithful to the mandate which has been entrusted to me.


Mr. RINFRET:: The hour is late, but I
think with such a large amount of money involved and in the face of a policy which is so little in accord with good sense and public spirit, we had better accept the challenge of hon. members on the other side and possibly sit here over night rather than let this item pass. First of all, I desire to challenge the opinion expressed by the Minister of Marine that this policy is endorsed not only by Parliament but also by the people of Canada.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: We are not in a hurry.
It is very remarkable, Mr. Chairman, that * we have a Government so boastful of public support when speaking in this House and yet so little anxious to go to the polls.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We will give the hon. member a chance in Yamaska county very soon.


Pierre-François Casgrain: The sooner the better.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: We want that chance
not only in Yamaska county but in the whole country.


Mr. LALOR:: We will give you a chance and show you fellows a trick or two before we get through.


Pierre-François Casgrain: You will not come back.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: We have given the
Government many opportunities during the session to consult the people. We first of all asked the Government to accept an amendment to go to the country but it was refused by hon. members opposite.


Mr. BLAKE:: Mr. Chairman, I rise to
a point of order.	.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Then we offered an
amendment on another occasion


Georges Henri Boivin: Order.


Matthew Robert Blake: I rise to a point of order.
The hour is late and I think the hon. member should speak to the question before the committee.
Mr. DUFF; I wish to speak for a few minutes on that point of order, Mr. Chairman If I understand the point raised by the hon. member for North 2 a.m. Winnipeg correctly, it is that the hon. member for St. James Division of Montreal was not speaking to the question before the committee. It seems to me that the point of order is not well taken, for although the hon. member did

not keep perhaps as close to the subject under discussion as he should have, it was because of the fact that the hon. Minister of Marine in his usual manner interjected a remark with regard to Yamaska.


Cyrus Wesley Peck: (from the seat of the leader
of the Opposition) :	Mr. Chairman, speaking to the point of order-


Pierre-François Casgrain: The official leader of
the Opposition!


Cyrus Wesley Peck: No. Speaking to the point
of order raised by my hon. friend from North Winnipeg, although the House is in very good humour I think we would get along with these items much better if parties on both sides of the House would cease interruptions. I am one of those who cannot agree with my very good friend from Shelburne and Queen's-for whom I have the very highest regard-as to shortening the hours; I think we should lengthen them. I am going to see this debate finished and the item passed. Good humour is all right, but speaking unofficially for the leader of the Opposition, I think we should get along very well if we did not interrupt.


Georges Henri Boivin: Before giving any ruling upon the point of order, I must direct attention to the fact that the remarks of the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) and of the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Peck) were not relevant to the point of order raised by the hon. member for North Winnipeg (Mr. Blake). Coming to the point of order itself, the Chair regrets that it was not paying sufficient attention to the remarks of the hon. member for St. James (Mr. Rinfret) to declare whether the rule should be applied in the present instance. But in theory the point raised by the hon. member for North Winnipeg is certainly well taken, and I am sure that the hon. member for St. James will adhere strictly to the question under consideration.
Mr. RINFRJjCT: Mr. Chairman


John Howard Sinclair: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know by what authority the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Peck) is professing to act as leader of the Opposition?


Georges Henri Boivin: Mr. Rinfret.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I have so much to say about the question under consideration that I am perfectly willing to bow to your ruling. I would express the wish that the Chair would pay a little attention to what

I say; I think that would be very proper even at this late hour.
Now, the Minister of Marine has said that this policy has been endorsed by the people. I was endeavouring to show that the Government had given the people no chance whatever to endorse this policy, when I was called to order. I do not regret the incident, because this discussion has brought to this side of the House a member who usually sits on the other side, the hon. member for Skeena (Mr. Peck) -and he seems to enjoy it. While it is two o'clock in Ottawa it is only around ten o'clock in Prince Rupert and probably that is why- the hon. gentleman is so cheerful.
Coming hack to this item, I share the view of the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark) that this was not altogether a war measure. The minister made that very plain to-night when he said that while he laid down his policy as to building steel ships as if the war was going to last forever, he was more cautious when it came to wooden ships. In another part of his speech he said that at the conclusion of the war we would not have known what to do with the wooden ships and he boasted that he had been clever enough to prevent this country from spending any money on this class of ships. I would say that if he had been a little more cautious, possibly he would also have refrained from engaging this country in such an extensive steel shipbuilding programme. It will be seen that although my hon. friend was at that time under the impression that the war might last quite long and that it was imperative that shipbuilding must go on, he was exercising some discretion as to the quality and character of the ships. I repeat that had he been as cautious with regard to steel as he was with regard to wood, we would be better off to-day.
I may add that I do not share the minister's optimism as to the outcome of this venture. Possibly it is because we on this side have been unsuccessful in obtaining information, although we have made a great effort to obtain it. The minister himself has said to-night that he does not know much about this venture, and that he does not care to know anything about it. He said he was not going to inquire from the management where they bought their coal, butter, milk and so on. I do not feel that way at all, Mr. Chairman. I think we should know from the management not only where they get their coal, but where they get the deficit which we have to face to-day.
120i
My hon. friend admits that other countries have a surplus of ships, and he says that is an excuse for our being in the same position. But the trouble is that other countries have been engaged in shipbuilding for some time while this country seems to have chosen as the time to build the very time when it was imperative not to do so. That is an altogether different situation. As to the surplus which my hon. friend claims, I think he should give his secret to the hon. Minister of Railways. But if we get back to good book-keeping I do not think the hon. minsiter can claim any surplus. It has been shown that the best claim he can make is a return of some two per cent on the capital investment. We know that the Government borrowed money from the Canadian people at the rate of five and one-half per cent and that the securities for these loans are exempt from taxation to the extent of one billion three hundred and some millions. The Government, therefore, in investing a portion of that money in their shipbuilding programme and obtaining a return of some two per cent-which is much disputed, but that is their own figure-are not only using money on which they are paying five and one-half per cent interest, but are using the amount of the income tax return as well. So that the claiming of a surplus under these circumstances indicates a very great degree of optimism. I am inclined to repeat something I heard my good friend from Waterloo say the other day in Montreal: that if the minister can claim a surplus in the face of all the facts relating to his shipbuilding programme, he is entitled to open a sunshine factory with cucumbers as his raw material.
The member for Brantford (Mr. Coek-shutt) has endeavoured to give us some opinions of the press which, he says, show that the people are very appreciative indeed of this policy of the Government. When he started out he gave us the impression that he was going to quote Liberal newspapers which were emphatically in support of this policy, but he confined himself to a few Tory newspapers which were trying very hard indeed to find the least bit of common-sense in it. He started out with the Sydney Post, which could not say anything better in support of my hon. friend's policy than that it was less disastrous than the railway policy. It did not say the policy was a good one, but expressed the view that it was not as bad as another policy which was worse. Then he quoted the Winnipeg Tribune, which simply said that the policy was not

too bad when compared with that of other countries. Again the policy itself was not endorsed; the view was expressed that the condition here was no worse than somewhere else. He then went to the Vancouver Province, another Tory paper, which said not that the policy was right, but that it had a redeeming feature; it gave employment to returned soldiers. So with the Hamilton Spectator, which never dreamed of being a Liberal journal, and so with the Mail and Empire, which has just absorbed another Toronto paper and is also a good, strong Tory journal. So that the Liberal press opinions put forward by the hon. member for Brantford amount to the views of a few Tory papers, not endorsing the policy, but stating in one case that it is not as bad as something else, and in another that it is less disastrous than the railway policy.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. member knows that La Presse is the largest newspaper in Canada, having a circulation like 140,000 copies a day. Would he mind quoting what La Presse has to say editorially on this subject?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I have read recently the editorial columns of La Presse, and its expressions of opinion with regard to the railway and shipping problems indicate to me that it is perplexed as to what attitude to take.
Now, I wish to quote the words of the president of the Royal bank, Sir Herbert Holt, with regard to this matter. He says:
Government control has practically disappeared during- the year just past-wheat, paper and sugar being the commodities to be treed from regulation. Government ownership of transportation systems has developed. Without any advantage to the public in efficiency or rates, the operation of our national railways during the last twelve months has resulted in a loss which will probably more than absorb the amounts collected on Excess Profits and Income Taxes for the year 1919. Unless Government methods of operation are more efficient in this country than they have been in others tax payers in Canada may find the maintenance of their railroads and fleet more expensive than pension charges and other legacies of the war combined.


An hon. MEMBER:: Order.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: If the hon. gentleman
wishes to rise to a point of order. I will listen to him with great pleasure. I see there is nothing of the kind.
Mention has been made of the Montreal Gazette during this debate; but for some reason or another, perhaps because the House was not in a listening mood, no

quotation from the Montreal Gazette has been placed on Hansard, so far as I know. I have in my hand an editorial which is not very long and which is interesting, and I will crave the indulgence of the House and that of the minister in particular while I read it.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am in no hurry, and I may say that we on this side of the House are in no hurry at all, so that the hon. member can take just as long as he likes.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I am very glad to hear that. I think we cannot be accused of delaying the debate. What we would like to do would be to delay the shipbuilding, but it is unfortunately too late to do that. This article is headed:	"The Canadian
Marine," and it is from the Montreal Gazette of December 9, 1920:
The building and operating of ships is precarious business for governments to engage in,
more so than the construction and management of railways, because in the case of the latter there can at least be some permanence of rates. The war gave immense impetus to the shipbuilding industry, both from the urgent demand for ships to transport men and supplies and by reason of the large losses caused by submarines. Cost of construction doubled and trebled, and more than one government felt it necessary to supplement private yards with public plants. Now, the inevitable has happened.
As we predicted.
There is a glut of ships. The tonnage of the world at nearly 60,000,000 tons is much the largest of record, and this at a time when the foreign commerce of many countries has been checked by depreciation of currency and the contraction of credit. Freight rates are falling. So expeditiously and easily can ships be sent over every sea to every port that water transportation costs conform quickly to the law of supply and demand, and there seems bound to be considerable loss in the future in the in-rentory value and operating results of vessels built at the peak of prices.
Canada had developed a considerable shipbuilding industry, the principal customer of which h-a,s been the Government The Government will in a few months possess a mercantile navy of 63 vessels, quite a formidable fleet, constructed in Canada, and having an aggregate tonnage of 386,140 tons.
I would commend this to the attention of the minister, but I am sorry that he is not in his place.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: He is here.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I apologize to my good friend; I never like to speak when he is out of my sight; but I will read a little louder so that the sound of my voice will reach where he sits now:

The policy of procuring ships was a war policy, and it is very doubtful whether in other circumstances it would have been entered upon; so that while there was ready and adequate justification for the creation of a fleet, it is by no means certain that it should be continued as a Government activity, much less enlarged in number. Last year the nineteen Canadian Government vessels then afloat made an operating profit of $1,056,767 from completed voyages, and a further profit of $350,000 was estimated from open voyages, making a total profit of $1,406,000 on operating account.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Here again I may interject that these are the figures given by the Government, and for many reasons and particularly for the reason that we are not given any information, I personally take no responsibility whatever for what I am reading. I continue quoting from the Gazette, and I hope my hon. friends have not missed a word, because I am quite ready to start over again if anything has failed to reach their understanding. The Gazette says:
Interest on capital and depreciation must, however, be provided for, and the failure so to do is a notable omission in the annual report of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, Limited.
I am waiting for the applause of bon. gentlemen opposite.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: There is nothing of much note yet.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: The money invested in the ships costs Canada 5J per cent, and depreciation in the case of ships is a serious item, so that when all the charges are taken into account the fleet will be found to have entailed loss.
Just what we are claiming to-night.
The retention of the fleet in Government control is a purely business problem The ships are linked up closely with the National Railway System, and the report of the directors contains the statement that the fleet of the Merchant marine forms a most important ally to the National System of railways, and enables the railway to obtain large through shipments of freight to Atlantic and Pacific ports which would be lost to the National System if it were not for the steamship connections of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine Limited.
The last paragraph is a quotation from the Government report made by the Gazette. The Gazette goes on:
We are somewhat sceptical of this statement for the reason ships may be chartered without the expense of capital investment, and that chartered ships can be operated quite as economically as Government-owned vessels. The directors, cognizant of the change in conditions, warn the public that the Government marine is not to be regarded as a money-making proposition, in these words:-
"Having regard to the fact that all of your company's vessels have been built since the war began, the cost of construction has been much higher than prevailed before hostilities, so that the interest, depreciation and insurance expenses on your vessels are much higher than obtains on those of your competitors whose fleets, even after taking into consideration their new tonnage would not nearly equal per ton dead weight the cost of the fleet of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine Limited. Your vessels will also be competing on some trades against vessels carrying foreign crews. It will be seen, therefore, that while a satisfactory business is being done

The Government is speaking, of course.

and much new trade developed, large profits should not be looked for."
Then the Gazette continues:
The considerations counselling a cessation of new building are that the ships are unprofitable, and that they serve no purpose not equally to be secured by charter of by alliance with private steamship companies. The United States Government, very prudently we think, has terminated its war policy of public ownership and operation, and is disposing of its fleet, and in matters of business the Americans are shrewd. There is, indeed, something inspiring in the existence of a fleet of Government ships sailing the seven seas, and extending the commerce of Canada to the four corners of the earth, always provided the sentiment does not involve heavy cost and heavy taxation, for it should be remembered that the loss on the fleet falls on the pockets of the Canadian people.
I could quote from other pa*pers, but I think this puts the case very clearly. I regret that the Government has adopted with regard to the national railways and the merchant marine the policy of not giving information to the House. The reason given by the Government for this policy is that it would not be good business to disclose to the competitors of the Government system its administrative methods, but is it not extraordinary to hear that given as a reason, Mr. Chairman, when we remember that the competitor to the state-owned railways and the Government merchant marine is the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, whose brilliant and effective methods of administration have brought that company to such a brilliant success? However, as the Government persists in not giving information to the House, either on the railways or the merchant marine, I think that we on this side of the House are perfectly justified in trying to get the information and discussing the items before the committee to the extreme limit. As far as I am concerned, I wish to place myself on record as being absolutely opposed to the Government's policy. I think the Government should be censured for ever having embarked upon this shipbuilding pro-

gramme, and not only should it be stopped immediately as regards the building of new ships, but the Government should dispose of its present fleet at the earliest opportunity.


Frank S. Cahill: How much does the minister expect to have to spend to complete the contracts in Toronto that are let on this cost plus 15 per cent basis?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not expect it will cost more than $180 per ton, because labour costs are down, but I do not want to make any positive statement.


Frank S. Cahill: What will be the total still to be expended?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The original contract price was $630,000 per ship, and there has been paid $409,500. I could only give an estimate of the balance. It would cost, I should suppose, about $230,000 to $250,000 to finish each ship.


Frank S. Cahill: When the ships are completed, does the minister think he could get as much for them in the market as he will have to spend to complete them?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is not the Government's policy to dispose of its ships.


Frank S. Cahill: The people of this country are more interested in where this money is going than in the Government's policy. Would it not be good business for the minister to cancel these orders? What is the purpose of expending this money on a cost plus 15 per cent basis when the minister apparently has no control over the company in the matter of expenditure?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: One of the principle reasons why the Government went on with the building of these ships-there are many reasons but I shall not detain the committee to give them-was that there was a large number of men out of work in the city of Toronto, and although the Government knew they could not get the same efficiency out of men in the depth of winter, with these boats all exposed, we went on with the work to give bread and butter to our returned men, who were clamouring for employment.


Frank S. Cahill: Were the men who were getting the 15 per cent plus, which would amount to something over $60,000 particularly hungry?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am not speaking of him, because like my hon. friend from Pontiac, he possesses plenty. I was speak-
	-
ing of the hundreds of men who were clamouring for employment. I happened to be in Toronto at the time and I know there was a very serious unemployment situation there.
(The continuation of the debate will appear in a later issue.)
Tuesday, April 12, 1921.


Frank S. Cahill: Under those circumstances would it not have been better to distribute the money to these unemployed rather than give it to the contractors on a cost plus basis? Who is this firm that is getting this $60,000 for overseeing the work?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Collingwood
Shipbuilding Company.


Frank S. Cahill: Does the minister propose to spend any more of this $8,000,000 in that way, giving 15 per cent, plus, for the finishing of ships?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: As I said in the earlier part of the night, we have only two ship companies in Canada that failed, one at Prince Rupert, and the other at Toronto. The company at Prince Rupert received 8 per cent and the other company 15 per cent.	.


William Duff: Why do you pay one contractor 15 per cent and another 8 per cent? It seems to me that 8 per cent is high enough.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I differ from my hon. friend there. I may say that the Wallace Shipbuilding Company, after they agreed to finish the ships at 8 per cent, sent a man here for the purpose of getting out of the arrangement, because they thought there was an immense amount of material yet to be purchased, and they were figuring a large sum to be spent on material as well as labour. Had they known that such a small amount of material was to be purchased they would not have quoted 8 per cent. Fifteen per cent was the best price we could get in eastern Canada.


William Duff: If I understand the situation, the contractor gets 8 per cent on everything he buys, on every cent of wages he pays out, and on every bit of material he provides. All he does is to oversee the work. Now, on one contract in Toronto where the minister says there is $221,000 yet to be spent, the contractor would get $30,000 for overseeing the building of that

ship. It seems to me that my hon. friend is mistaken when he says that that is not a goodly sum Jto pay out. If the answers he gave me with regard to the Prince Rupert contract are correct, the amounts due on these two contracts total something like a million or a million and a quarter, and 8 per cent on that, it seems to me, is quite a respectable sum. The minister thinks that 8 per cent is rather small. When one looks over the Auditor General's report for the last four or five years and sees the exorbitant prices which the Government has paid to certain shipyards in the country to build destroyers and other boats, it will be obvious why the minister says that this is not a large percentage; but in my opinion, and in the opinion of people who know something about these contracts, 8 per cent over and above the cost of everything that goes into the building of ships, as well as labour, is a fairly good commission for shipbuilders to get.


Peter McGibbon: I have listened all night and into the morning with great patience to the discussion of these Estimates. I have listened on many occasions to the member for Pontiac (Mr. Cahill) and the member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) discussing, from a theoretical point of view, the issues that are before the House to-night.


An hon. MEMBER:: This morning.


Peter McGibbon: This morning, rather; and even at 2.45 a.m. I am persuaded that it is still possible for me to tell those hon. members a few things.


An hon. MEMBER:: What are they?


Peter McGibbon: Be patient and you will hear them. It is quite apparent to everyone on both sides of the House that hon. members opposite have been greatly disappointed by the showing that has been made by the minister. Throughout the length and breadth of the country, newspapers favourable to the Opposition have led the people to believe that they were to expect another financial spectacle such as we had in connection with the Government railways, and ever since the Minister of Marine submitted his report to the House, we have seen the bitter disappointment on the faces of members of the Opposition. They have come here expecting something that they could turn to advantage, and being disappointed, they are trying to bolster up a weak case. The hon. member for Lunenburg and the member for Pontiac- I want them to mark this-refuse to accept
the minister's word when he says that after the armistice this work was carried on, to a great extent, to give employment to returned soldiers. I quite understand that the member for Lunenburg and the member for Pontiac had no sympathy with that undertaking.


Some hon. MEMBER:: Order.


William Duff: Order. Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Muskoka (Mr. McGibbon), has made the statement that the member for Lunenburg and the member for Pontiac had no sympathy with the returned soldiers. I ask that the statement be withdrawn.


Peter McGibbon: That is what I said.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Take it back.


Cyrus Wesley Peck: I do not think that the expression is out of order. The hon. member for Muskoka does not, I suppose, intend to cast any reflection on any hon. members.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Frank S. Cahill: I do not wish to dispute your ruling, Mr. Chairman, but the statement was quite plain, and perhaps you did not catch it. What was said was undoubtedly a reflection on the members to whom it had reference.


Cyrus Wesley Peck: I would ask the hon. member for Muskoka to withdraw any remark that casts a reflection on hon. members.


Peter McGibbon: With the greatest humility, Mr. Chairman, I bow to your decision, but I may take the privilege of placing before the House the record of the hon. member for Lunenburg.


William Duff: Go to it; come on.


Arthur Bliss Copp: We challenge you to do it.


Peter McGibbon: On another occasion.


William Duff: Do it now; come on.


Arthur Bliss Copp: You dare not do it.


Peter McGibbon: It takes better stuff than the hon. member for Lunenburg to tell me that I dare not do it.


Cyrus Wesley Peck: I must ask the hon. member for Muskoka and other hon. members to keep their temper. I trust no reflections will be cast on any hon. member; I do not do it myself.


Peter McGibbon: I have not the least intention of reflecting on anyone, but if the hon. member's record in the House constitutes a reflection on himself it is no fault of mine.


Mr. SEGUIN:: (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, I would raise a point of order. I| question whether the hon. member is justified, at this stage of the debate, in attacking other members and not to discuss the question which is before the House. I should like to have your decision on this point.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, before you give your decision, I should like to discuss the point of order. I do not think that the Chairman can claim that the hon members


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


Peter McGibbon: Mr. Chairman, I must object to this interruption. If hon. members have any questions to ask me, let them do so.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I am speaking to the point of order. In doing so, I am speaking in French, as is my right. If the hon. gentleman cannot understand me, while it is no reflection on him, it is his fault, and he cannot deprive me of the privilege of addressing the House in the language I am using.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: (Translation.) My argument, Mr. Chairman, is as follows: An hon. member claims that other members of the House have no sympathy for the soldiers, the president of the committee cannot rule that this is not derogatory to their honour.
I believe, on the contrary, that the president, must take the view that when a member accuses another of not having had any sympathy for our soldiers, he has made a serious charge, which he should retract.


Cyrus Wesley Peck: After
the decision of the Chair has been given it cannot be criticized. Therefore I would ask the hon. member for Muskoka to proceed with his speech, but he must be good enough to refrain from indulging in any personal reflections and thus render less difficult the duty of the Chair.


Peter McGibbon: It is a great pleasure Mr. Chairman, for me to submit to your ruling. I have been a member of this House four years and I have never intentionally transgressed any of its rules. I have always, to the best of my ability, extended courtesy to every hon. member but, Mr. ["The Chairman.]
Chairman, there are limits beyond which courtesy cannot be extended. There are times when patience ceases to be a virtue; and at three o'clock in the morning we have had rehashing of old articles and a recourse to old tactics which amounts to nothing more or less than obstruction. The time has come when we should have a show-down, and if any hon. members want their record to be placed on Hansard I am quite prepared to take up the challenge and see that that is done no matter who may be hurt.


William Duff: All right go ahead and put it on record.


Peter McGibbon: Having said that, I
want to congratulate the Minister of Marine on the broad-minded policy that he conceived and laid before the people of this country. I want to congratulate him on the success which has characterized that policy up to the present hour, and I have not the least doubt that for that policy the future holds prospects equally as bright. Some hon. gentlemen opposite have a very short memory. I ask the hon. member for Pontiac (Mr. Cahill) what would have happened had the war gone on for another eight or ten months? We know that the enemy would have won the war, because the destruction of merchant vessels was so far outrunning the building of tonnage that we would not have kept pace with it. Does any hon. member here to-night deny that? If he does he had better go and consult the records. I tell hon. gentlemen that had the destruction continued for another eight months at the rate it was progressing, the British Empire, and its Allies, would have lost the war on that very ground alone. Are we to condemn the Government of Canada for taking the necessary precautions to try and supply the deficiency in ships caused by the destruction of tonnage that was going on and in order to help us to win the war? Without ships we could not have moved a man and could not have moved a pound of freight. If hon. members opposite do not know that, they had better delve a little into the history of the last five years and ascertain the facts for themselves. If we had lost the war what would have happened? Would hon. members have been here to-night quibbling over the expenditure of a few millions of money spent in pursuing a policy that was imperatively necessary. It is a travesty on parliamentary procedure that we should be kept here until three o'clock in the morning dehat-

ing about the expenditure of a few mil- and when you push your commerce into the lions of dollars upon the construction of seven seas of the world you will not spend a merchant marine that was intended to time until three o'clock in the morning
play an important part in helping to win the war. It is a travesty on our intelli-, gence and our patriotism. Let hon. gentlemen search history a little if they will and what will they find? How has England kept up her balance of trade for the last thirty, forty or fifty years? By pushing her merchant marine and her commerce into unknown lands. Let my hon, friends take up the exports of Great Britain to the United States, to Germany or to any of the other countries that are under protection and what will they find? That during the years I have mentioned those exports were diminishing and her balance of trade was only kept up by opening up fresh avenues of trade with South America and other unprotected countries. What would she have done if she had not had a merchant marine available for that purpose? Are we so short-sighted that we cannot see beyond the present hour? Is it to be thought that our merchant marine has no more prospective value to Canada, and that it ought to be scrapped? Do people think that the trade to be derived in future by pushing into foreign markets is of no value to Canada? I advise hon. gentlemen opposite who indulge in such criticism to study the trade 'statistics, and ascertain what has already been done in that line and what the prospects are for the, future. Let them enlarge their vision and let them conceive of Canada as a nation. Let them conceive of the Canadian people as a nation equal to any on the face of God's earth. How are we going to achieve that trade expension which we all hope to see if we have not the means of carrying our products to the seven seas of the world? Mr. Chairman, I have listened for days-not only during the present session but in former years-to the utterances of the member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) and the member for Pontiac (Mr. Cahill) and I have gone out of the House wondering whether we are children or whether we are men. I say to hon. members-and I do not very often take up the time of the House-for God's sake broaden your vision, get a true conception of the nation and its status, lift your eyes above the horizon of Canada-yes, above the horizon of the British Empire-and . look at these questions from a broad national standpoint and see if Canadians cannot take their place as one of the great nations in the world. When you do that,
worrying about whether we have a return of two and a half or three per cent interest on your money. For Heaven's sake, is there nothing bigger or brighter in a nation's outlook, or in a nation's ideal, to discuss than to be quibbling over a few dollars? Was it dollars that made the British Empire? Was it dollars that saved the world in the great struggle from which we emerged in 1918, or was it patriotism? Was it the ideals that men cherished or was it mere quibbling over petty issues? What are you going to pin your faith to if you lack ideals, or lack belief in the nation's future? To me it is inconceivable that we should be kept here until this late hour of the morning squabbling over the petty issue as to whether we have got two and a half per cent or five per cent return on our money, when the great issue is before us of what we are going to do to build up our country. What are we standing here for to-night-for a nation within the British Empire, or for that small parochial colonialism that we hear so much about from the hon. member for Lunenburg that is bound up, I was going to say within the four walls of a ship.


William Duff: Do you stand for the Canadian Government Merchant Marine?


Peter McGibbon: Sure I do. I stand for anything that is going to make Canada a nation. You cannot make Canada a nation without a merchant marine. You may lose a few million dollars, but is it not worth something to carry the commerce of Canada to the four corners of the earth? Are you going to measure that in dollars and cents? I say, Mr. Chairman, for God's sake-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Peter McGibbon: -let us forget this parochialism, let us get down to business, let us conceive of Canada as a nation, and let us deal with our national affairs accordingly.


Mr.   CHAIRMAN@: Shall the item carry?


Arthur Bliss Copp: No, Mr. Chairman. I am going to address myself to the Chair, if I may have the privilege. My hon. friend from Muskoka (Mr. McGibbon) has devoted some time to the subject of what we should do to make Canada a nation. I do not propose to pursue that line, as it seems to me that it is entirely out of

order, but if we ever wanted any evidence to prove the necessity of the motion made by my hon. friend from Shelburne and Queen's this afternoon for an adjournment of the House at a reasonable hour, we have it before us to-night. However, that is not for me to discuss at the moment. We are to-night discussing a very large and very important item in the Estimates. Such business is usually treated by hon. gentlemen in a serious and considerate manner, but although this is one of the largest individual items very little, if any, consideration is being given to it by my hon. friends opposite. The Minister of Marine has asked us to vote $8,330,000 for the completion, as he says, of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. It is useless at this time to argue what should have been done at the outset, but it is not too late to consider what should be done now. In the statement which he made to the House last week I find that forty-seven vessels are in commission and, as he would say, sailing the seven seas. Apparently he takes a great deal of credit to the company to whom he has handed these vessels over for Operation because they have made a profit, as he claims of 2.35 per cent over operating expenses.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No. The operating profit which I gave a few moments ago was $1,400,000 odd.


Arthur Bliss Copp: But what percentage?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I understood the hon. gentleman to give the profit as an operating profit. The operating profit is $1,400,000 odd.


Arthur Bliss Copp: That is the way you put it in your statement:
I wish to point out that these net earnings are before providing for interest, and the above amount of net earnings, 5781,460.09 is equal to 2.35 per cent interest on notes given to the Government for the full cost of the ships.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: But that is not
the operating profit.


Arthur Bliss Copp: That is the profit amounting to 2.35 per cent on the cost of the vessels, as I understand that statement.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: After providing
for all operating and overhead expenses, depreciation, etc.


Arthur Bliss Copp: My hon. friend may find
the argument of some success as far as he and his friends are concerned, but I cannot see how he can figure that we have made a profit on the operation of these
[Mr. Oopp.l
vessels until he is able to show that interest and all fixed charges have been paid. My hon. friend gives reasons why he embarked on this shipbuilding industry, the main reason being to provide work for returned soldiers. That was a most worthy motive. But if that was so, I would like to know what the minister thinks of the recent dismissal of seven or eight hundred men from the Canadian National Railway shops at Moncton, the majority of whom are returned soldiers. Surely the same broad sympathy should be extended to those men and others elsewhere, although there has been a deficit in the operation of the Canadian Government rail-3 a.m. ways. In referring to the shipbuilding industry, a moment ago my hon. friend said that we on this side of the House hoped that we will have another "financial spectacle" as we had in respect to the government railways. It is a "financial spectacle," Mr. Chairman, and it behooves all hon. gentlemen, I care not on which side of your Chair they sit, to try and work out the best arrangement possible to meet present conditions. That cannot be done while we are indulging in threats and challenges such as have been thrown across the floor of the House tonight. I can readily understand that my hon. friend can argue that it would be unreasonable to sell these vessels at the present time and go out of the shipping business, but so far as I am concerned-and I do not profess to be an expert in these matters -1 can foresee that we are going to have in this shipbuilding industry, if we can dignify it by that name, another failure next year, and that that failure will be repeated year after year, piling deficit upon deficit, just the same as is happening now in the operation of our Canadian National railways.
We had that before us when my hon. friend embarked on this-I was going to say tragedy; when he embarked on this undertaking. We had the example of the Canadian Government Railways with a deficit year after year, yet my hon. friend saw fit to hand out this dole of fifteen per cent over and above cost to the ship-building concerns in Montreal and elsewhere-and he comes back here and tells us he did it because he hoped to give employment to returned soldiers. If that is so, did he assume any responsibility as to the wages these men should receive? I would like to see the country relieved from the terrible burden which has been imposed upon

it, and I suggest that if my hon. friend consulted and accepted the advice of reliable business men, he would be doing the country a service. He knows such men, many of them, in the city of Montreal; he knows their business capacity and qualifications, and their counsel might be of value. We launched out into this undertaking without proper thought, without proper study, without proper consideration. We have lost money, but to many people to-day a few millions is as nothing; we have come to think in large amounts. I say that we should get back to normal. We should cease thinking in terms of hundreds of millions and get back to a little horse-sense, if I may use the term. Let us not go on drifting until it is too late. I say to my hon. friends opposite that I am serious in this matter; I do not desire to talk politics.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Hon. gentlemen do not seem to understand the conscientious expression of opinion without reference to politics. That attitude on their part is easily explained, because with the exception of the minister himself not one gentleman opposite has paid the slightest attention to the item that has been before the committee for consideration since yesterday afternoon. My hon. friends opposite should realize that they have as much responsibility as any other hon. member of this House in the matter of seeing that the Minister of Marine is granted only sufficient money properly to carry on the business of the country with due regard to the country's interests and not with a view to continuing the extravagance which has been going on during the past two years.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I find at page 31, on
the last line of the annual report of the Department of Railways and Canals of Canada, for the fiscal year dating April 1 to March 31, 1920, the following words:
"Controlled Companies"
"Canadian Government Merchant Marine, Limited".
(Translation) :	I would like the hon.
Minister of Marine to tell me who are the shareholders in this company and when it was incorporated.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This was a subsidiary company created by the Government in order that the House and the people generally might know what profit or what loss was the result of the operations of the
ships. In doing that we followed the example of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company in connection with their ocean service.


Pierre-François Casgrain: (Translation.) I would now like to know who are the shareholders of the company and who is its president?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Government,
I think.


Pierre-François Casgrain: (Translation.) Who
is the president of the company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The King.


Pierre-François Casgrain: (Translation.) Where is the head office of the company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: At Toronto.


Pierre-François Casgrain: (Translation.) I wish to thank the Minister of Marine for his kind information, because I had no knowledge of the facts concerning the incorporation of this company; I knew that a limited company had been incorporated, but I did not have the information which the hdn. minister has just given me. I am happy to learn that His Majesty the King is president of the company and that the public are the shareholders. I see that not only do we own the shares, but that we have all the responsibility and deficits as well.
I would now like to know from the hon. minister-I also read on page 31, the following :	.
Constituent and subsidiary companies comprised in the Canadian Railway system -sub-title: Constituent companies.
The Canadian Northern Railway Company.
The Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Company
The Canadian Northern Quebec Railway Company
Mount Royal Tunnel and Terminal Company, Limited.
Canadian Northern Pacific Railway Company
Canadian Northern Alberta Railway Company
Canadian Northern Western Railway Company
The Canadian Northern Saskatchewan Railway Company
Central Ontario.
The Canadian Northern Manitoba Railway Company
Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific Railway Company

Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific Railroad Company
Duluth, Rainy Lake and Winnipeg Railway Company


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I rise to a point of order. We are not on the Railway Estimates and I cannot see how my hon. friend is in order on the Ship-building vote in reading the names of all these subsidiary railway companies.


Pierre-François Casgrain: (Translation.) This is to show what relation the three paragraphs have to one another. I read at the head of page 31: "Constituent and subsidiary companies comprised in the Canadian Northern Railway system." I wished to enumerate the constituent companies. Further on, I read:	Subsidiary companies,
which is another class of companies, and still further on, under the caption "Controlled companies," we have "The Canadian Government Merchant Marine, Limited." I thought I was entitled to enumerate the various companies making up the entity or class termed "Constituent companies," as well as others which make up the other class known as "Subsidiary companies," and also that which is designated under the name "Controlled Company." I should like to know in virtue of what this company has been classed under that designation. I think the question I have put to the minister is quite in order.


Georges Henri Boivin: (Translation.) I understood the point of order was decided by the very fact that the hon. gentleman had put his question, but I take it now that he has not yet got an answer from the minister.


Pierre-François Casgrain: (Translation.) What I wish to know is just this: I spoke of "Constituent Companies," and under the caption "Subsidiary Companies," I mentioned "The Canadian National Telegraph Co.", "The Great North-Western Telegraph Co. of Canada." and several other companies, and under the last caption "Controlled companies," I mentioned "The Canadian Government Merchant Marine, Limited." I should like to know under the authority of what Order in Council, of what Act, or other enactment, that company "The Canadian Government Merchant Marine, Limited," was placed under the control of the "Canadian Northern Railway System."


Frank S. Cahill: Has the minister a copy of the contract with the Collingwood Shipbuilding Company of the cost plus basis?


Pierre-François Casgrain: There is a point of
Order.


Georges Henri Boivin: I understand the
hon. member has a perfect right to ask under what Order in Council or what law or what Statute this Company was placed under the direction of the Canadian National Railways Company; but the Chair is helpless; the Chair cannot oblige the minister to give an answer unless he so desires.


Pierre-François Casgrain: With your permission, I will translate.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is not necessary.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I see at the end of
page 31, controlling company, Canadian Government Merchant Marine, Limited. I would like to know by what Order in Council or law, or if there is no Order in Council or law, by what Act or deed the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, Limited, came under the control of the Canadian National Railways system?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Government
own all of the stock, as my hon. friend well knows. I am quite prepared to stand for loss of time. I can quite understand what the hon. gentleman is at. What he wants to do is to kill time; it is not information he wants.
Mr. CASGRAIN. We are serious.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: So am I, but the night is young. I am afraid I cannot agree with the hon. gentleman about his seriousness, but I will try to be a little more serious than he is and tell him that the Government own this company and the company was created by Order in Council, as he well knows.


Pierre-François Casgrain: (Translation.) That makes it clear to me that the company has been constituted under the Order in Council which has just been quoted to me, but that does not tell me by what authority that company has been placed under the control of the Canadian Railway system.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Possibly I may be permitted, at this stage of the debate, to protest against the minister's assertion that we are not serious. This was supposed to be private members' day, and his item came on only at the last moment or around midnight and naturally found a House not so well filled as it might have been. There is only a handful of members on both sides of the House; but we are endeavouring, not only myself, but my friends, the hon.

member for Lunenburg ('Mr. Duff), the hon. member for Pontiac (Mr. Cahill) and the hon. member for Charlevoix-Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain), to get information. It is very hard to get it; but we intend to stay here until we do so, and we are very serious and, in fact, more serious than the minister thinks.


Pierre-François Casgrain: (Translation.) If you allow me, Mr. Chairman, I will put my question to the Minister of Marine in a different way: Has the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, Limited, been put under the control of the Canadian Northern system under the last law passed in 1919 concerning the administration of the Canadian National Railway system?


Georges Henri Boivin: Shall the item carry?


Mr. GASGRAIN:: (Translation.) Since I cannot obtain an answer from the Minister of Marine, I will ask the House to take note of my remarks. I have a right to an answer to the question, which I have put at least three or four times.
The hon. Minister of Marine, said something a moment ago which might seem true, but it was not quite the truth. I must say that I am as serious as the Minister of Marine can be. I am asking for information, and he refuses to give it. If there be an Order in Council as he claims, he must know it and should tell us; if it be under the law passed in 1919 that the Canadian Northern System, Limited, and all the subsidiary companies were put under the control of the Canadian Northern Railway system, he must know it and should tell us. I represent a constituency of 20,000 voters, who sent me here not only to represent them, but to represent Canada as a whole. When we are asked to vote a sum of eight million and some odd hundred thousand dollars, it is not a matter to be disposed of in an instant. The hon. member for Mus-koka (Mr. McGibbon), put the question a moment ago, What is the use of haggling so long over a matter of a few millions? Mr. Chairman, the people's representatives have the right to know how this money is spent. We have here before us a company organized as a company with limited responsibility; it is not known when it was organized; we are told the King is its president and the Government controls the shares. I ask the Minister of Marine, who is in possession of all the information, to tell us what its exact situation is, and he refuses to answer me. I ask the Chair to request the minister to give me an answer
and I am told that the Chair cannot force him to answer. Again I put the question and again I receive no answer, but I am sure that when I go back to my constituency next summer, and tell the electors what has been the conduct of the minister this evening, he can rest assured that the verdict rendered will*not uphold him.
A moment ago, in the course of my remarks, I put the following question to the minister:	How many returned soldiers
have been employed in the various yards in Canada? I had no better success; the minister did not deign to answer.
Mr. Chairman, I asked a moment ago how many returned soldiers had been employed in the various yards of the Canadian Marine. I received no answer. This is the fourth time that we put pertinent questions to the minister, and he says, You are not serious. Mr. Chairman, if we were not serious we would not sit here tonight, the hon. members for St. James (Mr. Rinfret), for Montcalm (Mr. Seguin), for Pontiac (Mr. Cahill), for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff), and myself; and our venerated leader this evening, the hon. member for Shelburne and Queens (Mr. Fielding) would not be in his seat, being content, notwithstanding his advanced age and all the years of labour which he spent in the service of his country, to remain among us at this hour of the night to lend his help to His Majesty's loyal Opposition.
Our opposition is loyal, we simply ask the Government, whose claim is that the object of this policy is to help the returned soldiers and to prevent the unemployed from starving with hunger, to tell us, at least, how many of those people have been employed in the ship building yards. I do not think the assertion made by the minister is correct. I would not say it is false, as this would be inconsistent with parliamentary etiquette; but we all know what happened, of recent date, in the province of Quebec.
Aided by the hon. Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton), the hon. Minister of Marine introduced, in the dying hours of last year's session, a bill enabling the Government to dispose, by Order in Council, of Estimates amounting to about $20,000,000. Now, it was hardly a fortnight after that law had been adopted, when two companies supposed to share in that sum were bankrupt; I mean the Three Rivers Shipyard and the National Shipbuilding, such are the industries favoured by the Government and by the Minister.

Glancmg at the ministerial benches, I find that the hon. minister himself has gone out; perhaps he is disgusted with his work. It is about time he should be, having swallowed the millions granted in the preceding years. I am told that I am making obstruction, that I will not understand, that I have no reascSi to take such steps as I am taking to-night. Mr. Chairman, when we are asked to vote this amount right away, I cannot do otherwise than take the position I have taken, and I am surprised that the minister should lack courtesy and loyalty to the extent of not listening to us and of leaving the chamber, because he is afraid that were I to speak at any greater length, I might perhaps make more punctures in his management of the merchant marine for which millions are voted by this House. Mr. Chairman, there is another point to which I would call the attention of the committee and of the country. I asked the minister, a moment ago, some information as to a certain Order in Council and also as to the several resolutions, actions or other nefarious decrees of the Government concerning the management of the marine. I have got no answer, as I said a moment ago I caught, on their flight, some expressions and phrases uttered by the minister while delivering the great speeches of which he has somewhat the monopoly and explaining the management of his great company as he would have done to a small board of directors or to a small and very poor municipal counil. He said: That information, I have it, not because the merchant mai'ine is managed neither by the Marine Department or by myself, but by a company, and all I have to do is to depend upon them and to ask them the results and the remittance of the money.
Money was voted to the minister in that way and he would now have us vote an item of $8,000,000. I, for one, shall refuse to vote it, because that sum will be managed and spent not by the minister himself, but by the company called the Canadian Merchant Marine, under the control of the Canadian Northern Railway Company, the doings of which it will be impossible to supervise and the extravagant expenses of which it will be impossible to control. Should those in charge of that company take a fancy to send ships to any part of the world, where there is no traffic, we could not prevent it, and the hon. minister would tell us next year: "With the eight millions I have completed the

building of a few ships, but I have rereceived a report showing that I have less revenue than last year."
Were we sure that this was the last amount we would be called upon to vote for the merchant marine, and would the Minister give us the information which we now ask, perhaps we might reconsider the decision we are taking to-night to oppose that item; but under the present circumstances we cannot change our attitude with respect to that matter. I may be charged with having said too much, but when such a heavy expense is being dealt with, no one could even say enough. The position we have taken is perfectly justified by the very fact that the Government will not give the information we would like to get. Therefore, I hope that my hon. friends will help me in this contest. I have probably held the attention of this House during too long a time, but I think I owed it to myself and to my electors to say what I have said. I shall now take my seat, reserving the right to begin again later, on the occasion of some other items which will be submitted to us, and I hope my hon. friends will continue the debate which I have opened.


Frank S. Cahill: Has the contract with
the Collingwood Company any fair-wage clause in it?


Michael Clark: Has the Minister of Marine gone to the Senate?


James Alexander Calder: The Minister of Marine has been in the House a very long time. He has gone out for a very short while, and will be back in a few minutes. I understand that in the contract itself a scale of wages was fixed.	.


Frank S. Cahill: Has the minister a copy
of the contract? Trouble was reported there.


James Alexander Calder: There is not a copy of
the contract here.


Frank S. Cahill: Is there one in the department?


James Alexander Calder: Certainly.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: The Minister of Marine was charging us a minute ago with not being serious, but I think he has been carried away by his own seriousness. I hope he will be back in the House to reply to our questions.


James Alexander Calder: He will be here shortly.


Frank S. Cahill: A good deal has been said about the contract for the employment of labour in Toronto. The minister now tells us he has not such a contract; but after considerable effon the part of the members of the Opposition, we were able to find out that there was some kind of contract on the basis of 15 per cent plus on some $460,000 odd. It would appear that the Government are not very serious in their professions of interest in the labour men, at least not so serious as they are in their attempt to provide fat sums to certain gentlemen who, I presume, are friends of theirs - in the contracting business. With regard to this money which the ministry proposes to vote to-night, the statement that has been given to us is, to say the least, the most preposterous thing ever presented to Parliament. The Government come down and propose a vote of $8,300,000 to finish their shipbuilding programme, and the minister mis-states his position; he attempts to bring in a statement showing that he has made an earning when, as a matter of fact, he has incurred a loss. He tried to show the committee that he was placing a sum of money in a rest fund that was to be used for depreciation on his ships. I will not say he was trying to mislead the committee.


Peter McGibbon: You might just as well.


Frank S. Cahill: But he gave a statement that was misleading. He stated that he had earned a surplus and had some money to provide for a sinking fund, whereas, as a matter of fact, he had not earned interest on his investment, and therefore had no money to loan. His scheme was all right, but the only thing was that he had no money. So that it is not only bad bookkeeping but it is misleading to say that he has provided a sinking fund to take care of depreciation. Now, the shipping people claim that they should have at least 5 per cent for ordinary depreciation, and my hon. friend has not even provided that amount. He has not earned a total of 5 per cent on the whole operation. He has not actually earned interest, and therefore no amount for the 2 per cent he allows for depreciation, which, -according to the shipping people, should be 5 per cent. The people of this country have reached the point where they are very much concerned over the extravagance of the Government. The Government apparently have lost touch entirely with the country; they do not seem to appreciate what is in the minds
of the people. The people are being taxed to just about their limit of endurance. The Government have devised every possible scheme to tax them, and they are unable to bear any further burdens. Yet the Government are asking for $589,000,000 this year, and unless you are going to borrow, which means bankruptcy, you will have to tax the people for that. The minister said it would probably cost $460,000 to complete these two ships, and he would not say that they would bring that money on the market when completed. The people have no money to squander on these official extravagances. It is all right for the hon. member for Muskoka (Mr. McGibbon), to talk of a few millions here or there; but if I mistake not, his desk mate to-night, the member for North Perth (Mr. Morphy) advocated the other night that the Government should go full steam ahead as they did in the United States. Well, so far as this Government's expenditures have been concerned, they have been going full steam ahead for the last five years. They opened the throttle wide and threw away the steering gear, and have gone the limit in every possible kind of expenditure. They have no regard for the people's money; they are simply hanging on as long as possible. I do not know what their hope is; I do not believe they have any, but they will hang on as long as they can, and continue to squander money. Yet the ministers do not think it necessary for them to give information to the committee. The member for Muskoka said we were obstructing. I have not been on my feet as long to-night as he was, in all the time I have spoken. I have been trying to get information, and every time I got up to speak, some one else wanted to follow up the line of argument he had in his mind, and until now I have not been able to state my views on the shipping question. I think the Government will acknowledge that their shipping programme was a mistaken one, and that it was wrong for them to continue it last year. Had they taken the advice of the Opposition, and disposed of the ships, they would have been in a much happier mood than they are to-day. It is not the business of the Government to own ships and chase around the world looking for cargo. That is for private enterprise, and the Government will find that out. The minister was unfair to the committee in pointing out the advantage of his ships to the export and import trade of Canada. He said that in 1914 we had imported from the West Indies $9,000,000 worth of goods, and

in 1920 $19,000,000 worth. In 1914,1 might point out, we imported from France about $3,600,000 worth of various commodities, and in 1920, something like $61,000,000, almost twenty times as much, and I do not think that the Canadian Marchant Marine carried a dollar's worth of these goods. There is also an item in regard to Greece; this has increased sixteen thousand per cent, but it is not due to the Canadian Merchant Marine. And there is an item for Italy, which is equally as laige. There is an item for Italy and it is equally as large. Of course these are exports from Canada, and it will be argued by hon. gentlemen opposite that the Government do not need to provide ships in which to send these goods over to those countries because the Government paid for the goods themselves-they loaned money to the Canadian manufacturers to furnish these goods to Italy, Greece and Roumania. Having provided the goods they do not need to provide the ships. But our trade has increased with a number of countries that our ships do not visit. The percentage under the heading of "other foreign countries" has increased by seven hundred per cent. That is a greater percentage than the minister was able to mention when he spoke of the merchant marine doing such great work for our export and import service.
The minister disclaims all responsibility for the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. He does not interfere with the management in any way, and he does not scrutinize the expenditure, but if there are any deficiencies the people must provide the taxes. We know that he furnishes the money but that is all we do know. But that is not good enough for the Canadian tax-payer. He is being forced to the wall by reason of having to pay heavy taxes, which have become an enormous burden on the country. My hon. friend tells us that he has been building ships in order to provide employment; and in the next breath he tells us that he is paying some person fifteen per cent on the wages of those men. There is something wrong about that; no man has the right to collect fifteen per cent from the labouring men of this country. That is not good business and there must be something wrong when such a system can obtain. The Government should wake up and take notice in regard to all these matters because if they do not the time is coming when Canada will be in serious difficulties. In fact the Government have got the country into difficulties as it is, and the situation is growing worse all the time.

The Government have embarked on a policy of public ownership but for what reason I do not know. Just think of their coming to the House and asking for $8,000,000 in the present case, and then telling us that they have absolutely no control over the expenditure of this money. It is a most absurd position to take, and the people of the country are wondering where it is going to end. They are thinking seriously upon this whole problem. When the minister states we are talking lightly about these matters he is misstating the facts. When hon. members opposite accuse me of wanting to obstruct I have no hesitation whatever in saying that I would be too delighted to obstruct this item until it was withdrawn. If my physical endurance would permit it I would stay here for a week opposing it and hon. members opposite might call it obstruction as much as they liked. I would do that willingly if it would save $8,000,000 for the Canadian people, money which they can ill-afford at this juncture to squander. It is an insane policy to spend money without any objective or without any policy in view, and it is, to say the least, a lamentable condition of affairs for the Canadian people. The Government have no hope of doing any better. They have not the courage to face the situation and take their loss. They admit no responsibility to the country, but they go on taxing the people, and the Minister of Finance is turning grey in his attempts to find money to pay for these extravagances. We have been here now almost two months, and the Minister of Finance is not yet able to say 4 a.m. when he expects- to be able to present his Budget. The Minister of Marine told us to-night that the Canadian Government Merchant Marine is managed by the Canadian National Railways. Yesterday evening the Prime Minister proposed solemnly and as if he meant it the appointment of a committee to look into the affairs of the Canadian National Railways, of which this merchant marine is a branch, and yet the Minister of Marine to-night asks for a vote of $8,300,000. Apparently he has no regard for the committee which the Prime Minister appointed only a few hours ago. It does not look as if the Government were serious or took the Prime Minister seriously. The minister tells us the same old story, that he has no knowledge of the affairs of this undertaking which seems to be an outlet to squander the savings of the people, for apparently the irresponsible directorate in charge may decide what to spend without

any restriction whatever. That condition of affairs would not be permitted if hon. members opposite had the courage to consult the electorate. We are being asked to spend money to help the working man- of which some gentlemen will take 15 per cent-in order that we may provide an export business, for which we must pay the manufacturer in advance, and then in turn we put a tariff wall around the country to exclude imports. But under our system we do not need to exchange goods! We are furnishing the goods, the money and the ships, and, not satisfied with that, we are subsidizing other ships to compete with our own merchant marine. We are going on the assumption that as long as we turn out paper dollars we can bring about prosperity. That is a policy for school children, for this Government, but it is not a policy that will be tolerated by the Canadian people when they have an opportunity to express their views at the polls. I hope the minister will seriously consider the withholding of this item until he can bring it before the committee which his leader named this evening.


John Archibald Maharg: I was going to suggest that we rise and report progress on account of the absence of the minister, but as he has just returned I am satisfied to go ahead with the business. I have a few questions to ask him. What time in 1918 were the first ships put into commission on the trade route to the West Indies?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Canadian Voyageur was launched in November, 1918, and the Canadian Pioneer in December, 1918, They were sent to Quebec to be finished o!f owing to the St. Lawrence freezing up between Montreal and Quebec. They went from there to Halifax, and the Canadian Voyageur was the first one to sail some time in February.


John Archibald Maharg: I want to get the date in 1918 when your ships started trading with the West Indies.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I think the Canadian Voyageur went to the West Indies on her first trip but I am not certain.


John Archibald Maharg: Could the minister state the value of the trade with the West Indies at that time?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The exports or imports?


John Archibald Maharg: Both.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: To all the West Indian Islands, in 1918, $9,653,761; in 1920, $15,257,014.


John Archibald Maharg: Will the Minister give us the tonnage for those periods?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No. The Trade and Commerce Department, from whom I got these figures, could not tell me what the tonnage was.


John Archibald Maharg: It is difficult for us to know just whether our trade is increasing or decreasing if we cannot have the tonnage. This afternoon the figures given were for 1913 and 1920, I think. I would like very much to have the figures for the tonnage, as dollar comparisons may be very misleading on account of violent fluctuations. How many of the Government ships are on the Great Lakes at present?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: None.


John Archibald Maharg: How many could be transferred to the Great Lakes?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Well, that would be a matter for the company to decide, but we have a few 2,800 ton and a few 3,750 ton ships that could operate on the Lakes. We have twenty-five ships of canal draft size.


John Archibald Maharg: Twenty-five ships that could be transferred to the Great Lakes?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


John Archibald Maharg: No subsidies are paid on the Great Lakes, I believe?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.


John Archibald Maharg: It seems to me that it would be very good business for the Government to transfer a number of these ships to the Great Lakes. I made this suggestion a year ago, and I believe that the minister promised sympathetic consideration, or something to that effect. In the face of the scarcity of shipping on the ocean and the tremendous fall in ocean freights, I would like to ask why a number of these boats have not been transferred to the Great Lakes.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The ships were occupied elsewhere running to Newfoundland and the British West Indies, and some across to European ports. I think I promised my hon. friend last year that I would bring the matter to the attention of the management; I shall be very glad to do so again. I do not know whether the opera-



tion of these ships on the Lakes would be profitable or not, neither can I say now whether or not there is sufficient freight offering there. My hon. friend will understand that I do not follow the details of the operation of the ships.


John Archibald Maharg: I am at a loss to understand the position taken by the Government. Is the Dominion to provide seventy or eighty millions of dollars and take care of a continuous loss possibly for years and yet have nothing to say as to the expenditure of those moneys? Are we quite helpless and absolutely in the hands of this shipping company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No. When we first turned the ships over to the operating company I told them to use their judgment in putting the ships on the routes that they thought would pay best, but that one thing we did not want them to lose sight of was the national interest. There may be some very good reason, with which I am not familiar, why they did not put some of these ships on the lakes. Not later than to-morrow, or when I can get away from the House, I will telephone down and let my hon. friend have the answer speedily.


John Archibald Maharg: Then my hon. friend cannot say why they have not been put on the lakes?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.


John Archibald Maharg: ifas the Government made inquiry into the possible profitable employment of those boats on the Great Lakes?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is only reasonable to suppose that the operating company would see that the ships were put on the routes where there was the best chance of making money. They have even gone further than that and put them on routes where they were taking a chance. The absence of our vessels from the lakes would signify, I should think, that the trade there would be unremunerative. But I do not want to make a positive statement; I will have the manager communicated with to-morrow and let my hon. friend have his answer. The answer of the minister suggest another question.


John Archibald Maharg: Have any of the directors of this company any interest in outside shipping companies?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There again I do not want to make a positive statement. I 
have known for many years the gentlemen who are directors of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine and if they had any connection with the Canada Steamship Lines, I think I would know it. So far as I know, they have not.


John Archibald Maharg: While the Canada
Steamships are the big noise on the lakes, they are not the whole thing, there are many other smaller companies, some of more or less importance. It does seem to me that the Government have been a little lax in their duty in connection with an expenditure of this size,, especially when it has been made with the idea, as has been stated, of assisting the Government railroads. Now, I think there is a field on the Great Lakes where our railroads can be helped tremendously.	.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: They may be.


John Archibald Maharg: I do not think there is any doubt about it. I think the Government should have made inquiries with a view to finding out just in what fields these ships could best serve the railroads; for assistance to the railroads was the one strong argument used by the Government to-day in favour of their construction. Is the minister aware that there are companies on the Geat Lakes that are making handsome profits, paying good dividends on capital, but whose capital is, according to the best information that can be obtained, at least four-fifths water?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. member will understand that I have no knowledge of private companies operating on the Great lakes.


John Archibald Maharg: This is public knowledge, as the Canada Steamships, Limited, a few days ago issued a report which appeared in the press showing that they made handsome profits this last year on the Great lakes. It would seem as though it would be wisdom on the part of the Government to keep well informed in that respect. .The point has been raised in this House of the control of transportation rates on our lakes and it has met with considerable opposition. Some members of the Government have suggested, probably not publicly, but privately, that there might be some way of controlling the cost of transportation on the Great lakes, and I was wondering if this was one of the means which they had in mind, because it would be a very effective way of controlling it to some extent. But we have on the Great lakes today, even if the minister would take for

granted a hypothetical case and assume, according to the figures of the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) that his ships have cost him five times more than they are worth now, a field of employment whereby he could make full interest on the total cost of his ships.
. Mr. BALLANTYNE: My hon. friend does not want to make an exaggerated statement. He is not a gentleman of that type, and I do not want him to think ships could be bought at one-fifth the price paid by the Government.


John Archibald Maharg: I am not saying that; I am saying " even if you take the figures as a hypothetical case." I am not saying what ships could be built for now, whether it is twice or five times less. I have shown to the minister that if we take the actual figures that are being paid for freight on the Great lakes now, he could go into competition on the Great lakes and earn full interest and something to spare on the total investment of his ship. That should surely be good business and worth trying.
Before I go further, I want to show to the minister the actual figures being charged on wheat, which is one of the chief products shipped across the Great lakes and one of the most profitable kinds of business carried on, on the Great lakes. These are actual figures of one company which does a great deal of the shipping on the lakes. I should like the committee to bear in mind that the shipment of grain across the lakes in the month of September is very small, because it is about that time the grain commences to move from the prairies. Even in the month of September, 1919, the rate from Fort William to bay ports was three cents; in 1920 in the same month, it was 4i cents, or an increase of 50 per cent. In October, the grain starts to move freely and in October, 1919, the rate was 3 cents, and in October, 1920, from 5 to 51 cents, or an increase of almost 100 per cent. The same figures apply to November of 1919, and 1920, from Fort William to bay ports. From Fort William to Montreal in September, 1919, the rate was 11 cents; in September, 1920, from 131 to 14 cents; in October 1919, 11 cents and in October, 1920, 151 cents; in November, 1919, 11 cents and in November, 1920, 151 cents. All these rates show a tremendous increase, all the way from 33 per cent to almost 100 per cent over the rates in 1919. This shows that there is a field of most profitable employment for almost the entire merchant marine. As the minister admits that he was not
aware of the profitable field, I thought I would quote these rates so that he need not be in doubt as to possibilities of doing a profitable business on the Great lakes. How many ships were fitted with a view to lake trade?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Twenty.


John Archibald Maharg: Yet none of these ships have been employed in that business, and this is most remarkable because a large number of those ships were built right on the lake ports from Port Arthur to Toronto.


Michael Clark: Ten of them tied up in Halifax.


John Archibald Maharg: Instead of ships plying on the lakes where they were built and where there is plenty of profitable work for them to do, they have been taken off to ocean routes and, as the statement has been made, chasing around the world looking for business. Have any of these ships been used in the coal trade?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not yet, but quite a few of them are at the port of Halifax now being overhauled, and it is the intention of the company to put them into the coal trade as soon as navigation opens.


John Archibald Maharg: Are they being rebuilt
so as to be suitable for the coal trade?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.


John Archibald Maharg: They do not require rebuilding for the coal or grain trade?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not so far as I
know.


John Archibald Maharg: I am glad to know that, because there is a way out for the minister to serve a very useful purpose to this country, by immediately getting those ships into commission on the Great lakes.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We will look into that matter with pleasure.


John Archibald Maharg: There are now some
40,000,000 bushels of grain in store at the head of the lakes. Some of this is being loaded now; in fact, by this time some of it is probably on its way, and I do not think the Government need worry very much about looking into the matter. The business is there and will always be there, because production in western Canada is going to increase. The boats could serve a useful purpose, not only in carrying grain, but in breaking down some huge combines on the lakes which affect not only the West, but very materially the East. Some are

under the impression that lake rates are not of much interest to the people of eastern Canada; but, to use a popular expression, it gets them both ways, just the same as it does those who live west of the Great lakes. Thus, these boats can serve a useful purpose there and at the same time find very profitable employment.
When you consider the profits that companies can make there with their capitalization such as it is, I am sure you will agree that there is room for improvement. I should just like to mention one or two combines they could break up right away. There is the insurance combine in particular. A few years ago, before the Grain Commission in Winnipeg, a miller stated that they could secure lake insurance at 50 per cent of the price they then had to pay if they could get shipping to carry their goods without having to take insurance from those who had control of the boat space on the lakes. Apart from the saving in dollars and cents, you could put a crimp as it were, in this combine business. Hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of produce goes to waste in these lake ports simply because the shipping companies do not have to take it unless they like; there is no control over them one way or the other. They have held up shipments of grain for days, even when the Grain Board had control of the trade, and they would not supply boats unless their price was met. The breaking up of this combine would be of tremendous value to the country, not only in a direct material way, but in its moral effect in bringing concerns of this kind to their senses. The only conditions at present under which you can do business with them are beyond human endurance.
I do not wish to detain the minister any longer this morning. I thank him for his courtesy, I hope he will take into consideration some of the suggestions I have made, and should we come back here again next year, I hope his answer will be a little different. I hope he will give us more than a promise to take the question into consideration, for really these promises do not get us very far.


Paul-Arthur Séguin: 
Michael Clark: We have sat for quite a long time and do not seem to be getting much further forward. I do not know that any good purpose is being served by continuing the sitting. The cause of its continuance has not been on this side of the House; the policy is that of the Government. There has been a suggestion 

I am not quite sure that it has not

come from the minister-that there has been a want of seriousness on this side. I cannot admit that for a moment. I have listened to the whole debate, I myself having occupied eighteen minutes of the committee's time just before midnight. I have heard all that has been said, and if there has been a want of seriousness, which I would not dispute, it has not been on this side. We do not consider eight and a quarter millions of the people's money a matter for jest, and it was not from this side of the House that a mock presentation of a bouquet was made to the Chairman of Committees. I have not heard a speech from this side of the House that was not seriously directed to some item in the Minister's programme with a view to getting information. There have been three contributions to the debate from the other side since the minister retired from the debate, which he has done for some hours, with the single exception of his replying to the member for Maple Creek (Mr. Maharg), in his usual courteous manner. So far as speeches are concerned, the contributions from the other side have been three; although there have been numerous other contribution in the way of the opening and closing of desks; and the entertainment has also been added to in a way I have not seen in my experience in this House, in the shape of a midnight lunch. That happened on the other side, however. The seriousness is here; the frivolity is with the people who treat lightly the country's money. The three speeches to which I have referred have not helped the minister's position. My hon. friend from Brantford (Mr. Cock-shutt), made a speech in which the one attempt at serious argument was the contention that this money spent for the benefit of returned men was a good thing. I had given economic reasons why I did not think it was a good way to cure unemployment by creating more. As a matter of fact, the contention of my hon. friend falls to the ground in this particular, that unemployment is rifer in this country at the present time than since I came to Canada twenty years ago. So that the very object of the minister has fallen down, as well as other planks in my hon. friend's argument. But it cannot be the opinion of hon. gentlemen opposite that it was done entirely to afford employment to the unemployed, because my hon. friend from Mus-koka had a vision of these ships sailing the seven seas. If it were not so late, I should like to know from the minister what 
disposition has been made of all the ships he has finished at the present time. So far as we are concerned, every minute of this debate has been useful. In the very last words which the minister uttered to the committee, he told us that a number of these ships are in Halifax harbour being overhauled. That is not what the Halifax Herald says about them.
It says they are tied up in that port because they have nothing to do. In previous remarks upon this question I pointed out, that from the columns of the Montreal Star I had learned that some of these ships were coasting up and down Norway, or Scandinavia, and even going to Germany to try and get cargoes. I would like to know exactly where the ships are at the present moment? However, what I want to point out to the committee is that we have two contradictory statements made as to what the ships have actually done, and what they are doing at the present moment. On the one hand we have it asserted that they are doing good business because they are going to promote Canada's trade in all the seven seas, and on the other, that at any rate they have done some good in providing work for the unemployed. As I said when the hon. member for Brantford was speaking, if that was their object it is a pity to have stopped such a programme when my hon. friend considers it so attractive. If the object was to employ the unemployed, then there never was so much need for shipbuilding and road building. If this Government believes in spending public money for this purpose why not raise another Victory Loan and go ahead and spend money?
We of the Opposition, we who are opposing the Government of whatever creed, have no monopoly of the view that this business has fallen down. The ships were built at a loss, they were built in an unprofitable way, and they were built at too high a price. I asked my hon. friend the other day, would he say now, as he said a year ago, that he could sell these ships at a profit. Could he sell them at all?


Pierre-François Casgrain: Not one.


Michael Clark: My hon. friend is asleep apparently and I repeat the question-could he sell the ships at all? Then if he could not I reiterate that they are a white elephant on his hands. Now that is the condition of the ships. With regard to their helping out the railroad policy, what my hon. friends opposite, from the minister down to the back bencher, have to

prove is that two deficits make a surplus. We have a defiicit of seventy millions on the National Railways and we, who are not serious forsooth, are to be told that if you only add losing ships to losing railroads the thing will be all right. Well, those of us who live another year will see. Those ships that are in Halifax harbour being overhauled are not earning much money for this year. The ships that are coasting up and down Norway are not earning much money. I am very much afraid they are not earning money because everybody who knows anything at all about ships knows that it is a very difficult thing for shipping to earn money anywhere at the present moment. I admit that quite frankly and seemingly my hon. friend from Skeena (Mr. Peck) agrees with me.


Cyrus Wesley Peck: No, I ask why do you blame the Government then?


Michael Clark: Why I should blame the Government for going into an unprofitable business against my own warning? When my hon. friend and his friends knew or were told, that this was an unprofitable business and went into it and come forward with a story such as we have heard about these ships, is my hon. friend so lacking in his grasp of public authority as to seriously press the question why the Government should be blamed, if one of the Government enterprises is undertaken against the knowledge of those who know something about shipping, and against warnings in the press of this country? In many quarters from the very beginning, especially in the capital city of the country, in the "Citizen" newspaper which every hon. gentleman could have read. From the beginning of the enterprise, every move in this shipping policy has been pointed out when it was wrong and condemned. That is why I blame the Government, and I ask my hon. friend if he does not think there is good ground for it?


Francis Ramsey Lalor: Are the Government supporters alone to blame in that respect? What about hon. gentlemen opposite who supported that programme?


Michael Clark: My hon. friend has an excellent opportunity of settling accounts with other members of the House for himself.


Francis Ramsey Lalor: I am asking you the question.


Michael Clark: A child can baffle a philosopher, and really I am not
prepared to tell my hon. friend at just this moment to apportion the blame. These of course are to blame that defended the policy. But that does not rest at my door, and after all is said and done the Government of the day is responsible for the policy of the day; and I have not known it as a common policy for a Government, when it is being met by solid facts and solid arguments, to ask a person using those arguments and producing those facts to apportion the blame between the minister and other members of the House. That is the business of my hon. friend from Haldi-mand, (Mr. Lalor) not mine. I do not want to delay these proceedings. I have occupied ten minutes in addition to eighteen -that is twenty-eight minutes of the time of the House, I have taken up. I do not feel that I have wasted a moment. I have spoken in what I conceive to be the best interest of this country, just as every word that I have ever uttered was uttered from that point of view and that point of view alone. I would call the attention of my hon. friend from Skeena to the fact that when I qrst uttered these words I was sitting behind the Government as he himself is sitting still. I was sitting behind the Government, and I was one of the few men-if he wants a confession-who were disappointed that by proceedings like these the Union Party was smashed to slivers. When I next blamed this policy, and pointed out the evils of it, I had moved to the crossbenches because I would not make myself responsible for this shipbuilding business. My hon. friend, therefore, has no ground when he asks me why I blame the Government in this matter. The summary of the matter is this: It is an unprofitable enterprise, and despite all I have heard about it being a popular policy from end to end of the country it will not requre many such detailed debates as we have had in the last two days on these Estimates to change any popularity that is left into very great unpopularity. I do not believe quite that my hon. friend is so sure of the popularity of this scheme. I do not see how he can be so sure of it because if it is not popular in the Government press in Halifax and Montreal then I can assure him it is not popular with the farmers of the prairies. Neither is it popular with the working men of Toronto who have had deputations up here revealing the very inwardness of the business. That popularity has not been a thing that has been absolutely evident in the by-elections that have taken place all

over the country. Neither does the confidence of the ministry in their own popularity become evident when they keep byelections back as far as they can by straining the law to the last point. I warn my hon. friend that he is living in a fool's paradise in regard to the popularity of the scheme. This night's debate, so far as this side of the House is concerned, has been fully justified because, up to the last moment, whenever the minister intervene he gave us information which has thrown more light on the scheme and that is what the country wants. It is an unprofitable scheme, it is next door to a bankrupt scheme, and I am afraid that the minister will find that it is a poor backing for an adminis-traton which is rapdly approachng the same position politically as this scheme has arrived at economically.
Now so far as I am concerned I should like, if I have any influence with my hon. friends on this side, to suggest that we have made our protest, we have ventilated this thing pretty well considering the number present, and so far as I am concerned T really doubt whether there is any wisdom in going any further. The minister is looking worried, he has already retired for an hour and we do not want to overwork him. I think therefore the vote had better be passed. Eight million three hundred thousand dollars.	_


Pierre-François Casgrain: It is a large amount
to swallow.


Michael Clark: It is needed,
is it not, for the finishing of certain contracts? The finishing of contracts is something that, after all, we are just as sensitive about as any one on the other side of the House. But that fact furnishes the final condemnation of the scheme at the present moment. For, here is a scheme of shipbuilding on the part of the Government for certain purposes, nearly every one of which has been knocked on the head. You have a number of ships already built which are idle, and here is an order for $8,300,000 to build some more. To do what? To get cargoes where those already built cannot get them. If my hon. friend could 5 a.m. sell the ships I would stand the big loss on them, because it will be some years before they do anything for this country, especially if the policy of the Government is not changed on other matters.


John Archibald Maharg: The hon. member for
Brantford (Mr. Cockshutt) referred to-
(Mr. M. Clark.)
night to the fact that the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark) questioned the wisdom of the project, but the hon. member for Brantford must surely have himself questioned the wisdom of it when he referred to it as he did. He said the policy itself was all right, but he was not certain that the time of putting it into operation was all right.


Michael Clark: It was too
late.


John Archibald Maharg: What is the good of advocating a policy if you do not put it into effect at the proper time? It is good policy to sow wheat in my part of the country, but not unless you know when to sow it. I might just as well say that it is good policy for me to sow wheat in January as that it is good policy to go into shipping without knowing the proper time for doing so. I think his argument is just as illogical as he would like the House to believe our argument is.
Then he said that the farmers themselves know all about the fall in prices. I would like to tell the hon. member for Brantford that the farmers do know all about the fall in prices, but they also know something about the advance in prices, particularly of agricultural implements, in connection with which the hon. member's name is very prominent. I had occasion to purchase some implements before leaving home to attend the session here, and the manager of the company through which I did the business told me that there was only one agricultural implement and they handled practically all lines-that had not gone up in price. These advances run from 10 to 20 per cent. The hon. member for Brantford may be glad to have this information, especially as the Cochshutt Manufacturing Company make more than one line of agricultural implements.	*


John Howard Sinclair: It is
an extraordinary situation that the twenty-one hon. members sitting on the other side of the House seem to have no arguments to put up against the able speeches that are made from this side of the House. Apparently no one is able to answer the arraignment of the Government just delivered by my hon. friend from Red Deer. It strikes me that my hon. friend from St. John, a distinguished member of the Government, ought to be able to defend it, if it is capable of defence.


Pierre-François Casgrain: He is a dumb philosopher.


John Howard Sinclair: And
my hon. friend from Colchester (Mr. McCurdy)-can he say nothing in defence of the Government? If this policy is right why is it that no supporter of the Government can demonstrate it? We are open to argument, but we are determined to do everything in our power to prevent the passing of this $8,000,000, because we are fully convinced that it is an extravagant and useless expenditure at the present time. We have shown that these ships are only worth 25 per cent of the money put into them. Twenty-five per cent of $8,000,000 is $2,000,000, so that we are throwing away $6,000,000. We are told that this is to help the unemployed. It strikes me that there is no more extravagant way of employing idle men than in building ships, for you pay a very small amount for labour and a very large amount for material. Labour is not a great part in the construction of a ship. Besides, if you employ labour in one part of the country you are equally bound to employ it in other parts. In the town where I live there is a shipyard, but the Government have not recently let any contracts there, although there are a great many idle men in the locality. Why do we not get the use of some of this money in New Glasgow instead of its being all spent in Toronto, Port Arthur and other places west of Ottawa?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Does not my hon. friend know that we placed a million dollars' worth of contracts at New Glasgow and $8,000,000 at Halifax.


Mr. CHISHOLM:: Not millions.


John Howard Sinclair: I did
not know that $8,000,000 was to be expended in Halifax.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Quite a large part of it.


John Ewen Sinclair: How many ships are
being built in Halifax under this programme?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There are two yet.


John Howard Sinclair: Does
my hon. friend pretend to say that he is going to spend $4,000,000 on one ship?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.


John Ewen Sinclair: (Guysborough):	If
he is, the condition is much worse that we thought it was. My hon. friend must be mistaken when he says that this money is to be expended in Halifax.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: A portion of it.


John Howard Sinclair: Well,
if my hon. friend is to find work for the returned soldiers, how is it that he is placing contracts in a few places like Toronto and Halifax, and making no provision for the returned soldiers in other places in Canada? My hon. friend stated the other day that he had sixteen ships under construction and only two of them are being built in Halifax, so that there must be fourteen somewhere else. He has not told us where the fourteen are being built. He also told us that the total tonnage of the sixteen vessels amounted to 114,470 and that the average cost of building is $192 per deadweight ton. That means that my hon. friend is asking for $8,000,000 to complete a shipbuilding contract involving $21,978,000 worth of work. My hon. friend has not given the explanation of this; it looks to me as if he would be coming back later for a large sum in order to complete his programme. He has not told us, either, how much work has been done on the ships that are now in course of construction. He stated this morning that the ships that were in Halifax harbour were there for repairs. Well, that is an illuminating statement. The newspaper that supports the Government in Halifax and has done so from its inception until very recently has been criticizing the Government severely on its shipbuilding programme. From his window the editor can see in the harbour ten or twelve ships lying at anchor.


William Duff: Fifteen on Saturday.


John Howard Sinclair: Fifteen on Saturday, my hon. friend says; that is the spectacle witnessed by the editor of the "Halifax Herald." Consequently he came out and informed the country of the condition of things. Well, if as the Minister says these ships are under repair there must have been something wrong with their construction in the first place, because they are comparatively new ships. If there are fifteen in the harbour at once and all for repair, it will take a long time to have the repairs made, because only one ship can go on the slip at a time. This is the manner in which we are getting light on this question.
On page 9 of the 53rd annual report of the Minister's Department I find the following :
The following is an approximate comparison of the cost of wages and hoard per month between a British, an American, a Canadian, and a Japanese steam merchant ship of similar tonnage and dimensions; cost of the British

ship for wages and board per month $3,645 09, of the American $6,711.10, of the Canadian $2,303.50 and of the Japanese $1,124.50.
The pay of the master of the Canadian ship was $250 per month, that of the. master of the Japanese ship $100 per month; able seamen on the Canadian ship received $16.20 per month, on the Japanese ship $9 per month.
My hon. friend, then, who is spending millions of money for the purpose of giving employment to men in certain parts of Canada, pays his sailors $16.20 a month, about fifty cents a day. The classification of the Civil Service, page 5, gives the compensation of an ablebodied seaman on the Great lakes and on the coastal waters as $55, $60, $65, and $25 for subsistence in addition. But on the deep sea waters of the Atlantic, and, I suppose, of the Pacific, my hon. friend expects his sailors to work for $16.20 a month, while the master gets $250-as much as fifteen sailors. His ships ought to make money if he is paying his sailors at that low rate.
My hon. friend informs us that there is a sinking fund to provide for the capital expenditure and also for the depreciation, and that at the rate at which he is accumulating amounts in this sinking fund he expects to discharge the debt in twenty-five years. But my hon. friend appears to have made no provision for keeping the ships afloat during that twenty-five years, and to provide for necessary repairs. He tells us that ten or fifteen ships that are at Halifax are there for repairs. It takes a great deal of money to make repairs in these times; the machinery of the ships will depreciate year after year and will have to be renewed; the boilers will have to be renewed every ten years anyway even if the best care is taken of them. The minister cannot repair his ships and renew his machinery and boilers twice during the twenty-five year period without some money, and so far as I can learn, he has not made any provision for repairing his ships or renewing boilers and machinery. How does the minister propose to deal with the question? How does he propose to get the money to put in new boilers? Will he take the money out of the sinking fund? If he does, his sinking fund will be very largely reduced. If he could get along without any repairs for twenty-five years; if his boilers would last for twenty-five years, his theory might work out. But twenty years is regarded as the life of an ordinary tramp vessel; if it lives for twenty-five years, all the better, but it is apparently necessary that the minister's ships should last for twenty-five years to work

out the sinking calculation the minister has made. How does the minister expect to keep his ships afloat during those twenty-five years? I do not see that he has made any provision for that important eventuality.
I pointed out, when I was speaking before, that freight rates have become very much less during the last few months. During the first six or seven months of 1920 rates were high and ship-owners made a good deal of money. The slump came the last of August or the first of September. As everybody knows who knows anything about ships, it is usual to have contracts two or three months ahead, so that most of 1920 must have been carried on under pretty good contracts at fairly high rates. Then the slump came and rates dropped to about one-half. I am familiar with some of the trades; but if any hon. gentleman will go into the library or reading room and take the "Journal of Commerce" of New York or the "New York Herald" and look over the fixtures of vessels last September or August and look over the same fixtures for the same routes at the present time, he will find a very large difference in the rates that are paid. If my hon. friend, on my calculation, lost $4,000,000 last year, how much is he going to lose this year? We are in dead earnest about this matter, because we feel that we represent the people of Canada; that there is at stake, not only this $8,000,000, but probably $10,000,000 or $12,000,000 more to be wasted in connection with these ships during the current year. We cannot afford to spend this money; the people of Canada have enormous burdens to shoulder; indeed, the hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Cockshutt) represented the Canadian people as a weary Titan carrying an enormous load. It would be a great mistake for us to permit the Government to do anything we could prevent, in order to increase that load by some $12,000,000 for the coming year. That is the reason why we are fighting this question inch by inch; and if ever we were in earnest in cur lives, we are in earnest now, if possible to get some concession from the minister, to draw from him some promise that he will look into the matter and that if it costs more to finish those ships than to leave them alone, he will not spend the money for the present year. If any of these ships are just about commenced-and I do not know whether they are or not, because the minister has not told us-if the keel

is laid and a few thousand dollars spent, we should not think of throwing away another million to complete the ship when we know that when it is completed, it will not be worth in the market more than 25 per cent of the money put into it. That is the way the matter strikes us, and it ought to strike hon. gentlemen opposite in the same way. I see a number of business gentlemen opposite me. Do they want to waste $8,000,000 or, perhaps $12,000,000, during the current year? I am sure they do not. If not, let them take charge of their minister, and endeavour to do something with him. They alone can do it. We cannot do it on this side; it is like throwing pearls in the wrong direction for us to make speeches on this side attempting to influence the minister; but hon. gentlemen opposite can influence him if they try, if this venture strikes them as it strikes us on this side, as a losing game, a blunder, that should not be committed by the Government of this country.


Cyrus Wesley Peck: Just in case anybody thinks nobody on the Government side is going to talk, I should like to say a few words. My good friend from Red Deer (Mr. Clark) seemed to resent a question that I asked him in all good humour. The hon. gentleman is such a master of eloquence, and we all respect him so much and listen to him with so much interest that I am sorry he resented the question I asked.


Michael Clark: I did not resent the question at all.


Cyrus Wesley Peck: The hon. gentleman cannot have any more good humour than I have. As I understood the hon. gentleman to be bewailing the decline of freight rates throughout the world, I simply asked why the Government should be blamed for this decline in freights and why that should not be considered in the loss of profits. It is a very god thing that we have continued this debate, because I am quite sure hon. members opposite are entirely sincere; I do not believe they mean to obstruct. When you look across the House at those earnest and sincere countenances, you can see that they do not mean to obstruct. Therefore, is it not very much better that thirty or forty of us should sacrifice our time until this hour of the morning, or if you like during all the forenoon in order to get this item through? This shows that not only we on the Government side, but hon. gentlemen opposite are sincere in this matter,
and we want to get the item through. What is the use of carrying on this debate for days? Let us get the item through, and 1 am sure we can if we go on.
I am not going to carry on the discussion in defence of the policy of the Minister, because we do not need to do that. It is very easy to tear things down, but it i3 very hard to build them up. I am quite sure that the minister's policy is going to win out, and I am prepared to stand hehind it.
I do not care what gibes are thrown at me about my not crossing the floor of the House. I am as good a free trader as the hon. member for Red Deer, absolutely, and if I had a little square constituency down in Alberta, I might talk a whole lot of free trade and nothing else, but I am a practical politician. I am going to fight for free trade where we can get it, but I challenge my hon. friend from Red Deer to say if he can get it from the official Opposition in this House. Take the leader of the Opposition (Mr. Mackenzie King), or the hon. member for Shelburne and Queen's, (Mr. Fielding), or the hon. member for Quebec East, (Mr. Lapointe) or the hon. member for Beauce, (Mr. Be-land)-all these hon. gentlemen have made high protectionist speeches in this House. I look in vain for free traders on the other side of the House.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Here we are.


Cyrus Wesley Peck: I know you are there, but there is no free trader there.


John Howard Sinclair: Here is one.


Cyrus Wesley Peck: If any hon. gentlemen can show me where we can get genuine free trade or a policy that will work towards free trade I will be with him, but in the meantime you have to show me. I always listen to my hon. friend from Red Deer with the utmost respect, and I challenge him to say whether he has any more sympathy than I have with the speeches from the official Opposition.


Michael Clark: We are all together on this item.


Cyrus Wesley Peck: In the meantime let us get on with this item. We are all good humoured and want to get it through. I know hon. gentlemen opposite want to get it through and adjourn the House.


Michael Clark: I just want
to say that if I have earned any portion of the respect of my hon. friend from

Skeena by anything I have done in this country, then indeed it is one of the highest rewards that has come to me, and a far better reward than could come to me in any other form. So far from holding any resentment, I replied to him with the utmost earnestness. He might have mistaken that for temper, but it was not so. I was very anxious to get my point of view into the mind of my hon. friend. It was simply earnestness, not ill-temper. How could I be ill-tempered with so genial a gentleman as the hon. member for Skeena? Let us leave that.
My hon. friend has joined me at one point. I did say a few minutes ago that I did not see much use in continuing this discussion, but I have rather changed my mind since because of the very practical and sensible speech of my hon. friend from Antigonish and Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair). The more we go into this thing the worse it seems to get. Every time the minister speaks or tells us anything it appears to make his case worse. I do hope we shall have a ministerial reply to' the last speech of my hon. friend from Antigonish and Guysborough. He has made a calculation-he knows something about shipping-and he fears that $8,000,000 is not going to finish the contracts of the minister. He has made a calculation by which he has demonstrated to this committee that there are good grounds for fearing $21,000,000 will be needed yet. That is a practical point which the minister is bound to take up, even at this late hour of this sitting. If this $8,000,000 is only a portion, and we shall have to find $21,000,000, I think that is good ground for not getting the item through in a hurry.
My hon. friend from Skeena has issued a challenge to me. I am very proud of him as a confessed adherent of the doctrine of free exchange. He is consistent in believing in a shipbuilding programme, and no doubt if he pegs away at the minister he may get him on a fiscal policy that will make their ships pay. I want, however, to appeal to my hon. friend's imagination-
I do not think it is the strongest thing about him. He is the sort of man I would like to have with me if I was going to fight tigers-but I would like him to project himself in imagination to the harbour of Halifax, and to suppose that by some modern invention an inhabitant from the planet Mars had also come to Halifax harbour to see what was going on there. He would naturally ask my hon. friend from
[Mr. M. Clark. 1
Skeena some questions. He would know he had come from close to the Minister of Marine and would naturally suppose he was well up on the shipbuilding programme. " Well," the man from Mars would say to my hon. friend, " what are those fifteen ships doing over there?" " Oh," says my hon. friend from Skeena, " they are being overhauled." " Is there nothing for them to do on the sea?" "Not for the moment; cargoes are very hard to get." Then they would look around the harbour and see two new ships that were being built. This intelligent inhabitant of Mars would naturally say: "Well, I cannot understand why you should be building two more ships when the finances of the country are strained to the utmost, and you have no cargoes for the fifteen ships that are here." What would my hon. friend from Skeena say if he had it put to him in that way? Does he not see that it is an immensely practical proposition that my hon. friend from Guysborough puts up when he says: We had better cut that loss if there is any suspicion of our being drawn into an expenditure of $21,000,000. But there is another side to this question of hurrying the item through. What would the inhabitant of Mars say to the hon. member from Skeena when he explained that we were building more ships, at the cost of millions of money, when we had dozens of them that we had the greatest difficulty in finding cargoes for now? He would say: " I would like to take the next aeroplane back to Mars." So far as I am concerned, I am content from that point of view. My hon. friend has not convinced my reason about the wisdom of getting the item through, but when reason fails to appeal to the majority, then we must succumb to majority rule. So that I join with my hon. friend in wishing that the item may go through as soon as possible. It is getting on to breakfast time now.
Mr. D'ANJOU: (Translation.) I should be recreant to my duty if I did not join those eloquent gentlemen who preceded me, in objecting most strongly to this item of more than $8,000,000 that is asked by the Minister of Marine. Besides the minister, two other hon. gentlemen from the other side contributed to this debate. The first stated that the discussion was nothing but ridiculous, as it was only a question of a few million dollars. Hon. gentlemen have heard so much about millions during the war and are now so familiar with large figures that they are ready to vote any

amount that may be asked by the Government. However, when they were in the Opposition they proved to be very sharp obstructionists; they used to discuss items of $500 for hours; but now that His Majesty's loyal Opposition objects with good reason to this item, they take occasion of that to ridicule the stand we are taking to defend the rights of the people. Hon. gentlemen are doomed to be disappointed, and when they come before the people they shall have to give a strict account of the moneys they have spent in useless and disastrous undertakings.
It may be argued that this discussion is of no avail since the Government, having a majority in this House, can have the money voted whenever they like. But we on this side of the House are satisfied that we have fulfilled our duty in representing properly not only our own constituents, but the whole people of Canada, who shall have to pay exorbitant taxes to meet the enormous expenditure involved in the construction of ships in this country.
According to the experts, at any rate, it is established that this policy was disastrous and it is time for the Government to stop such foolish expenditures of no benefit to the country. Unrest is rampant in the country and not only the people's representatives but the people themselves beg the present Government to economize. Take for instance the Department of Agriculture, whose credits should be very large; the estimates for Agriculture amount to only $4,502,000 and still the Government come and ask for 8 millions to spend on the mercantile marine. However, it seems to me that the interests of the country would be better served should the Government drop their disastrous shipbuilding policy and transfer those 8 millions to the Department of Agriculture so as to encourage our farming community. For my part, and during the last two sessions, I have had occasion to ask the minister to establish an experimental farm in Rimouski county and, on every occasion, the minister told me that my request was a most reasonable one but that it could not be granted until the country's finances were in better shape. The minister said a moment ago that he was ready to spend the night here in order to put through the vote for 8 millions for his shipbuilding industry, but nevertheless, he refuses to extend the necessary explanations or give all the information that the people's representatives in this House may expect from him.
The hon. members who spoke before me have given the opinion of various newspapers regarding the shipbuilding industry in this country. Extracts were read from liberal newspapers, papers in sympathy with the Government, unionist newspapers. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I shall read an extract from a newspaper which is rather giving its support to the agrarian members in this House: the Ottawa Citizen:
Too Many Ships.
While our government is taking much credit to itself for its extensive and costly shipbuilding program, which goes on apace, there is developing a world situation in tonnage which is becoming of serious import to all maritime nations. This relates to the glut of tonnage from which the European and American continent is suffering. Writing in the New York Evening Post, Mr. Allan Nevins calls attention to the fact that the United States shipping board has tied up seven steel vessels since the end of September and now announces that eight more, all large ships, have been withdrawn. A noted American authority on maritime affairs is quoted to the effect that hardly half the worldfs available ocean tonnage is being employed at this time and that a general fall in shipping securities in the United States and Britain marks the general situation. Companies here and abroad have resorted- to special devices to keep their tonnage moving. Five lines plying from Liverpool to Oriental ports-the Cunard, Ellerman, Moss and others-have, offered rebates to shippers who will promise to restrict themselves to their vessels. Steamships agents in New York and other American ports are making vigorous efforts to obtain parcel freight in default of full cargo shipments. A fortnight ago the American shipping board announced that American lines carrying freight to the four chief ports of Germany, Holland, Belgium and France would be allowed to fix their own rates. This means a price-cutting war in competition with European lines.
The chief causes for tile present situation are given as too much tonnage and a heavy decline in freight shipping. According to Lloyd's Register the world had, in June, 1911, a gross tonnage of about 45 1-2 million tons of shipping. In June of this year it had almost 54 million tons. In addition to this there is building some seven or eight million more tons. In the United States the shipping boa*-d has attempted in vain to sell some of the 1,000 steel ships under its control to private parties but the knowledge that the world is in for a protracted spell of sharp competition and of freight rates that spell disaster to lines lacking in efficiency and very heavy capital has proved too strong for the board to do business.
Mr. Chairman, after the evidence offered by the most important newspapers representing public opinion in this country, after the opinion given by experts in shipbuilding, it seems to me that the honourable the Minister of Marine should open his eyes and that, not only should not we report

progress, but this item should be struck out of the estimates for the mercantile marine and granted to the Department of Agriculture. The Government ,/should strive to economize where economies may be accomplished. When the development of Agriculture is at stake, or when those industries which may contribute to develop or increase the richness of our country are at stake, I have no objection to the Government spending all the money they think proper to spend. For my part, I feel sure that the members of the Opposition are now doing their duty towards their constituents and towards the country at large when they oppose with the greatest energy this item of 8 millions which the Minister of Marine asks the House to vote.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I do not want to detain the House, but I must congratulate the member for Maple Creek (Mr. Maharg), and the member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark), for supporting the Opposition in their attitude to this item. We object to the Merchant Marine, and falling in line with the member for Red Deer, have endeavoured to show that even during the war the minister discriminated in his treatment between steel ships and wooden ships. But even if, as the minister claims, this were a war policy, I contend that it is all the more reason why it should now be discontinued. The Government was supposed to be elected for war purposes, but they do not realize that the war is over. We object to this policy on the further ground that it is another form of Government ownership. This Government has been experimenting with railway ownership, and their experiment has proved disastrous. It is well known that Government ownership in the United States has also proved a great failure, and instead of experimenting further and trying their great administrative powers in this matter, the Government should abandon the policy of public ownership in both railways and ships. The funniest part of the whole debate is the claim of the Minister of Marine that he has a surplus in the operations of his ships, and his figures show an elasticity of bookkeeping which is perfectly astounding. The investment in this great venture is about $50,000,000. The Minister says he has obtained, or rather the management has obtained-because he confesses that he knows nothing about the subject himself-a surplus of over $780,000, something like 2.35 per cent on the initial investment of $50,000,000. The Government is carrying loans on which it is paying 5i per cent, besides 
exempting these loans from the income tax. So that it will be seen that the minister cannot show any better statement than a return at 2 per cent on capital. We know that the capital cost of the ships has been shrinking a good deal since they were built. These ships cost $192 per ton deadweight, and it is now claimed that they could be well replaced by ships costing $130 per ton. It is clear, therefore, that we have lost the enormous sum of $62 per ton on the value of the ships, and this represents, both on ships now in commission and on those to be finished, a total deficit of something like $20,000,000. Of course, the minister and his supporters say that we do not need to worry about millions; the war has been won and we must provide employment for returned soldiers, and it does not matter at all if it costs one million or twenty million dollars; we can well afford it. I agree with what has been said by the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair), that the worst way to deal with the problem of the returned soldier is to have such expensive contracts as ship-building for the sole purpose of providing a little temporary work. There are dozens of ways in which we could help the soldiers to equal advantage and with more profit to the country, and this ship-building policy is a poor excuse for providing employment. We have quoted in this House extracts from the press, Tory, Liberal and Independent, and we have also quoted reports of the Bank of Montreal, the Royal Bank, and, in fact, nearly every bank except possibly the Bank of Commerce, all adverse to this scheme of ship-building as well as the policy of the Government ownership of railways. The people have to provide the deficits, and while it is all right for the ministers to say that it is only a matter of a few millions, the people want to know where this money is to come from. We know that in a few weeks' time the Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) will have to come before the House and advise that some means of taxation be adopted to make up these deficits; and it is a serious responsibility for hon. members to make light of the matter and pass it off with any trivial remark that it is only a few million dollars, or words to that effect. The people have been labouring heavily under the taxation of the Minister of Finance of last year, and that hon. gentleman is now at work to find some other means of taxation. When the people have to dig down into their flat purses to find a few dollars and give them to the Government it

is outrageous to hear the minister say: Oh, that is all right; give us all your earnings so that we may experiment in Government ownership.
I wish to read the following short paragraphs from a clipping from the "Journal of Commerce," a New York paper, dated October 26, 1920:-
The present cost of operation of modern vessels is from three to five times greater than during the ten-year period prior to 1914, while freight rates are only from two to three times higher at the present time. Building programmes are being curtailed and it is reasonable to believe that freight rates cannot be kept below the actual cost of operation, and unless some international rate war should spring up as a result of the paternal legislation enacted by the last Congress and which the president, with apparent wisdom, has so far declined to enforce, it would seem reasonable to believe that freight rates are not likely to go lower, and with stabilization of the general situation may work higher.
In this connection, it is well for shippers to bear in mind that at this time two years ago the rate on one commodity, for instance, cotton, from New Orleans to Genoa was about $8 per 100 pounds, while to-day the rate is from $1.25 to $1.50 per 100 pounds, or just one-fifth of the rate two years ago, and only about double what the rate was in 1913, although the cost of wages, coal, port charges, etc., have trebled and Quadrupled during the same period.
I could go on reading, Mr. Chairman, but I would not utter one sentence which I felt was not useful and necessary for the carrying on of the business of the country. The United States, with their tremendous export trade, had an over-supply of ships. In Canada, though, we continue to build ships, even in the face of the present situation. It would be better for
6	a.m. Canada to buy ships from the United States at the present time than to continue to build them in this country. But we should do neither, because we do not need the ships. Not only should we censure the Government for entering upon this policy; we should stop building ships and try. to dispose of the ones we have at the earliest possible moment.


Frank S. Cahill: Will the minister inform
the committee at what yards the sixteen ships to be completed are under construction?


Mr. WIGMORE:: Victoria, 1; Halifax,
2; Prince Rupert, 2; Toronto, 2; Montreal, 2; Midland, 1; Vancouver, 1; Collingwood, 1; Levis, 1; Port Arthur, 1; Coughlan Yards, Vancouver, 2.


Frank S. Cahill: What is the tonnage of
each?


Rupert Wilson Wigmore: Victoria, (one), 8,300; Halifax, (two), 10,500; Prince Rupert,
(two), 8,350; Toronto, (two), 3,500; Montreal, (two), 8,30ft; Midland, (one), 3,500; Vancouver, (one), 8,300; Collingwood, (one), 3,500; Levis, (one), 8,300; Port Arthur, (one), 3,500; Vancouver, Coughlan Yards, (two), 8,300.


Frank S. Cahill: What amount is still to
be paid on each?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I cannot tell the
amount for each ship, but the vote will certainly complete the work and no further vote will be asked for. I heard the hon. member for Guysborough say that it would take $21,000,000 to finish the ships. I hope hon. members will take the word of the Government.


Frank S. Cahill: What are the names of
the builders of the ships not yet finished?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Halifax Shipyards, Toronto Ship-building Company, Harbour Marine Company of Victoria, Coughlan Ship-building Company, Vancouver, Wallace Ship-building Company of Prince Rupert. There is also one ship to be completed at Levis and one at Midland.


John Howard Sinclair: I do
not wish to put my word against that of the minister, but I stated that, according to the minister, there were sixteen ships under construction and that on the basis of a total tonnage of 114,470, at a rate per ton as given by the minister, the cost would reach $21,978,240. If the minister would tell us now how much money he has expended on the ships we would be able to check these figures.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I gave them to
the House when I made my first statement. Of the amount of $8,000,000 required to complete the programme $4,665,496.10 is a re-vote from last year.


Frank S. Cahill: Is there no way in which the minister can cancel these orders and dispose of the unfinished ships?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The ships will be entirely finished by July next and it would be quite impossible to cancel the orders now.	[DOT]


Frank S. Cahill: According to the twentyeighth report of the Department of Trade and Commerce for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1920, the total value of goods of Canadian origin exported in the field covered by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine was $30,000,000. We have apparently spent $1.50 for every dollar's worth of goods we exported; yet the in-

creasing of our export trade was one of the principal reasons why the Government went into the ship-building business. To a country that had any knowledge of the economics of export and import, of production and manufacture, my hon. friend's appeal would not be a very sound one. To attempt to build ships to promote export trade is surely building your house on the sand. Hon. gentlemen opposite criticise us on this side for not offering constructive criticism. Well, it is not exactly the business of an Opposition to provide the Government with policies; when the Government find they have no policy, it is time for them to resign.
Taunts have come from the Government side against members of the Opposition for their war records. I have no apology to make for my war record nor for that of my constituents. From the little village of Portage du Fort, in the county of Pontiac, with a population of 360 souls, we had 37 volunteers before conscription came into effect, and after conscription came into effect there was only one man conscripted, and he was neither French nor Irish, but of my hon. friend's nationality, and that is not saying anything against his nationality.


John Archibald Maharg: Who has control of these ships before they are launched?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Government, under the Department of Marine.


John Archibald Maharg: I understand that five of these ships are being constructed at inland ports, and that they will be finished in July. I would suggest that if the minister has control over these boats construction be rushed as rapidly as possible, and that these ships be retained on the lakes where they would be absolutely sure to find employment. If he has not control, I would urge that he suggest to the company that the ships be retained on the lakes.


Frank S. Cahill: I wish to read an item from the Halifax Herald, one of the papers supporting the Government:
The announcement in parliament that the deficit on the government owned and operated railways amounts to something like seventy millions of dollars, is not only startling, but really alarming. In placing the figures at seventy millions it is stated the Minister of Railways was "breaking the news gently," and by that it would occasion no surprise if the actual deficit ran up to over a hundred millions.
But while public attention is focussed on this enormous and really staggering deficit of the railway system, a note o<f alarm is being sounded from other quarters. There are rumors

to the effect that the railway system is not the only utility that is losing money.
For instance, there is the Canadian Merchant Marine. This gigantic enterprise must have cost the people o<f Canada a huge sum of money. To-day it is costing a huge sum of money. How many millions of dollars went into this enterprise, we do not know. How many millions of dollars are being sipent annually iby this same enterprise we do not know.
We think it would be well for the Parliament of Canada to take this matter in hand.
Are the millions of money being spent wisely? That is the question the people would like to have answered.
Are all those ships earning their keep? That is another question the people would like to have answered.
There are about ten of those fine ships in Halifax harbour at the present time, anchored in the stream. Some of them have been there for quite a length of time, and there does not appear to be any hope of their leaving their anchorage at an early date.
The maintenance of a steamer of any size costs money. The maintenance of the ten steamers of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine service cannot cost under one thousand dollars a day for each ship, or, at the inside calculation, ten thousand dollars a day. These ships are fully manned. The officers and members of the crew are sustained at the Government's expense and they are paid out of Government money.
Why are those ships lying idle in Halifax harbour?
If there are ten of those ships lying idle in Halifax harbour how many are there lying idle in other harbours?
Would it be a fair estimate to place the loss occasioned by the maintenance of those idle ships of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine service at $50,000 a day?
Why maintain all those ships if there is nothing for them to do?
Why use them to crowd out privately owned ships on routes of trade which private capital and enterprise have taken years to build up?
Why should the Government enter into competition with its own people?
There are many millions of dollars invested in those steamers. But the first cost is only a bagatelle in comparison to the cost of maintenance and if Canada is not careful, if Parliament does not put on the brakes, does not find out the reasons why, there is a possibility of the country getting another shock of equal if not greater proportions than that served up by the Minister of Railways last week.
The taxpayer of Canada should keep both eyes on the Canadian Merchant Marine.
If Parliament does not put on the brakes, it says. Well, we are putting them on now.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Westinghouse brakes.


Frank S. Cahill: No, the Opposition brakes.
I would advise the taxpayers to keep their eyes on the Minister of Marine.
The minister persists in going ahead with this fQolish and insane scheme in the face of advice from practically all the papers supporting the Government, with the excep-

tion of a few clippings which my hon. friend gathered and handed back to the member for Brantford (Mr. Cockshutt). I do not believe fifty per cent of the members of the Government are honestly in favour of this enterprise, but they must support the proposition because their majority is getting narrow and they cannot afford to go against the Government.


An hon. MEMBER:: We had a majority of thirty-eight the last time.


Frank S. Cahill: The time is coming fast when you will be glad to have a majority of three, and if I can help to bring that time any nearer, I am prepared to stay here.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Next week?


Frank S. Cahill: Well, the sooner the better. Now I am sure that if the minister consulted any schoolboy he would be advised not to squander this $8,000,000 of. the people's money on this insane project. I think we had better call a halt and save the people from disaster.


Pierre-François Casgrain: (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, since I have addressed this House, only a few moments ago, I have noticed with some astonishment, mingled with anxiety and even fear, I might say, that the Minister of Marine is left alone to pull himself out the best he can, in the discussion of an item in his budget, and which places him at the mercy not only of the Opposition, but also of that of his own Government friends. I am sorry to see that those who supported him in the past years, In the launching of his new policy of a Canadian merchant marine, abandon him entirely to-day. We have now been sitting all evening, even part of the night,-dawn is now breaking-and the only person, the only member on the right, the only minister who has spoken in the defence or helped in the triumph of the Meighen Government policy, was the hon. Minister of Marine. Three ministers sat in the House this evening: the Minister of Customs, the Minister of Public Works, and the Minister of the Interior. Yet not one came to his rescue. Why? I perceive the reason, Mr. Chairman, in the remark which was made by the Prime Minister himself, when he expressed doubts and fears on the future results of the colossal enterprise of the Minister of Marine. The item of eight million and some odd hundred thousand dollars,-which we have been debating for many hours, is not one which should be voted without giving it much thought; I
have already given my reasons why we should strongly oppose it. All my hon. friends who spoke before and after me are of the same opinion. When we consider the item which the Government wishes to have adopted, to-day, by this House and its eagerness to spend not in the interest of the Department of Marine but in the interest of a company called "The Government Merchant Marine, Limited", there is food for thought and we wonder what the Government is doing in other spheres. The Government must devote itself to the public welfare and supervise every thing where its activities find an opening, for instance: wharves and public works in the different provinces, and where they already exist, they must be kept in good condition of repair by the Government; it is its duty to look to these things. Some of these come under the Department of Marine, others are controlled by the Public Works Department.
In my own county there are some wharves which up to the present time were lighted at the expense of the Marine Department. The cost was about $1,000 per year. There was one at Cap a l'Aigle, one at Murray Bay and another at St. Irenee. What is happening to-day? Some time ago, I received a letter informing me that it was the intention of the Department of Marine, of the hon. minister himself and of his deputy minister, to cancel the subsidy which had been granted up to then for the lighting of these wharfs. What will happen when the steamboats of the "Canada Steamship Company" come down at night to this part of the county, to Murray Bay, Cap a l'Aigle and St. Irenee, when they will travel up and down the river; there will be no more lights on the wharves to accommodate travellers, the steamboats and even in some cases not only the boats of the "Canada Steamship Company" but also the Government's own boats. Last night, we were asked to allow the vote on this item of eight million and some odd hundred thousand dollars to go through, and this morning they still insist in having it shoved through; yet we are refused a grant of a few thousand dollars for these wharves. I called upon the deputy minister, Mr. Johnston, and pointed out to him that this was a disastrous policy which would occasion serious inconvenience, many disadvantages and even loss of life. The deputy minister, who that day was a busy man, did not pay much attention to me "Come in some other time, I am too busy at present".



If last night and this morning, we have strongly protested, as we are now doing, it is because the Government, through its representation: the minister, the deputy minister and those who have the care of the commonwealth, are not doing their duty. It is our right to demand from the Government that they look after the commonwealth as they should do. When the Government through its employees and its ministers refuse to do so, it is but just that the members of Parliament should assert the right of those they represent and refuse to pass the items which the Government to-day are pressing them to do. They do not bother about items of two, three, four or five thousand dollars, but they attach much importance to those running into millions, they are easier to shove through, the trick being done, the Government's supporter, those who sell paint for instance, obtain contracts and get rich.
Yesterday afternoon I brought before the House a resolution which came within the province of the Minister of Marine. I was asking for the establishment of a steamship service between Murray Bay, in the county of Charlevoix, and Tadoussac, in the county of Saguenay. You will allow me to say a few words in French on this matter, because this pertains as much to the Marine Department as to the Post Office Department or the Trade and Commerce Department. Nearly two years ago the Minister of Marine himself gave me permission to use the steamer Champlain which, up to that time, had been running between the north and south shores, between Murray Bay and Tadoussac, with calls at Cap a l'Aigle, Saint Fidele, Saint Simeon and Baie Ste. Catherine.
During the winter season 1919-1920 the service given by this steamer was a most satisfactory one. Now, what happened last spring? Friends of the Government offered to buy this steamer-the St. Lawrence Gulf Shipping Company, if I am not mistaken, represented by a man called Charles Barnard of whom our venerable friend, the member for Shelburne and Queen's, has had occasion to speak last night. I do not want to blame the right hon. Minister of Justice, but this Mr. Barnard happens to be his brother-in-law. I leave the conclusions to those wishing to draw them.
Since that time there has been no steamer service between those places. What happened? As I said yesterday afternoon there is nothing but a small boat going across from Baie Ste. Catherine to Tadous-

sac with the result that, during the spring, fall and winter months the traffic is four, five or six days late and that the mail can be carried1 only every second or third day and even only once a week.
Last year, when I criticised the Estimates of the Marine Department, I told the minister that, instead of spending considerable sums-he was then asking for twenty millions-he should not spend all of the amount voted, but save a small part for the constituents I have the honour to represent, a sum of two or three hundred thousand dollars, or grant them a subsidy of three, four or five thousand dollars to permit the establishment of a service between Murray Bay and Tadoussac. Nothing resulted from my request because the Marine Department have much more to do than look after the people of Charlevoix and Saguenay counties. They are busy doing big business. They deal extensively with the Dominion Steel, they carry law suits with this company before the Court of Exchequer; and also with the Nova Scotia Steel Company and the British Empire Steel Co. of which the Deputy Minister of Marine and Fisheries was one of the directors until recently when he resigned to resume his duties as Deputy Minister, so as to give more time to the Canadian Mercantile Marine which was brought forth by the minister and himself. I have but one more thing to add; I have said it several times in the course of this debate, but I would rather say it over again, because the hon. members sitting to your right, Mr. Chairman, iare rather boneheaded. Although we tell them that they simply usurp power, that they hold no mandate to keep up this railway policy and to make the people swallow this policy of a mercantile marine which they are boosting to-day, they refuse to listen. The day will come, which is not far off, when after telling them: "Keep your hands off the public treasury," the electors of the Dominion will tell them in their turn what we, the members on the left side, are telling them to-day: "Leave the merchant marine alone, because this is not a good policy for the people of this country."-"Govern-mind your own business."


John Archibald Maharg: How many Government ships have been built and launched in the Port Arthur shipyards?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Six.


John Archibald Maharg: In what years were they launched?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: In 1919 and 1920.


John Archibald Maharg: What time of year were they launched?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not know the month, nor the day, nor the hour.


John Archibald Maharg: I am not quibbling on such minute information. I want to know approximately, within a month, the time of year these ships were launched.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I will look up the information.


Michael Clark: While the deputy is looking up that information, does not the minister think that as leading the House at this moment, as well as being minister in charge of estimates, he might report progress?


Mr. MACKIE (Renfrew) :: No chance; carry on.


Michael Clark: My hon. friend from Renfrew is not leading the House, and I was not appealing to him. It might be well for the minister to consider that if one sitting of the House runs into the other it might become necessary to carry this vote by closure.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Does my hon. friend think that is fair after the very plain obstructionist policy that has prevailed on the part of members
7	a.m. on the other side since somewhere about midnight? There has been a most deliberate attempt to delay the business of this country; yet the request is now made, at two minutes past seven in the morning, that the committee rise and report progress. All I can say is, certainly not.


Michael Clark: I am not saying anything unfair, I am appealing to my hon. friend to think of his responsibility as leader of the House. Nor can I quite admit, having had considerable experience in Parliament, that the policy of the Opposition has been such as to deserve the characterization the minister has applied to it. The last time I was on my feet I pointed out that the minister never intervened without giving fresh facts upon which further appeals to him could be made as to what his policy really meant: I held out the olive branch to my hon. friend in more ways than one during the night and I thought it was no harm to ask the minister whether he had considered that.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I appreciate the courtesy which the hon. member always
evidences in this House. I have no reference to the hon. member or to those associated with him. But the official Opposition planned this obstruction and put it into effect. Is it fair, therefore, to call upon the Government to ask the committee to rise?


Arthur Bliss Copp: By what authority does the minister say that the Opposition planned obstruction tactics and carried them through.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: According to the evidence to-night.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The evidence as given by the hon. member for Red Deer is that no obstruction was offered. In fact, my hon. friends sitting to our left have taken a more emphatic stand if possible in regard to this item than the members of the official Opposition. No obstruction tactics were arranged or organized. The suggestion made by the hon. member for Red Deer is a proper one, and I again appeal to the minister to consider the course which he is taking. I have no apology to offer for my attitude. I have remained here this morning and I would remain much longer if I thought that the effect would be to prevent the wasteful expenditure of the people's money. The minister may have a very acute and definite knowledge concerning the transactions of his department but hon. gentlemen on this side have not that information, and the only way we can get it is by interrogating the minister when his Estimates are before the House. The minister, guardian of the treasury so far as his department is concerned, asks the people for $70,000,000 which he has virtually handed over without consulting the people to a company they know nothing about. I repeat, Sir, that the conclusions of the hon. member for Red Deer, who is an hon. member of considerable experience, are absolutely right, and I would feel that I was not doing my duty to my constituents, to Parliament or to the people if I did not utter the strongest protest of which I am capable against the procedure which has been adopted by the Government.


John Archibald Maharg: Is the minister in a position to answer my question?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Ships were
lounched ready to go to sea, on July 17, 1919, August 6, 1919, October 4, 1920, October 29, 1919, October 15, 1920, and November 17, 1919.


John Archibald Maharg: May I ask if these boats left the head of the lakes with cargoes or part cargoes?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not know if that comes under the operation of ships.


John Howard Sinclair: Has
the Merchant Marine made any report to the Minister this year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: None other than that which I presented to the House in my statement. Their annual report will be issued shortly.


John Howard Sinclair: I think we should have the advantage of that report before us before We are asked to vote this money. I am surprised my hon. friend undertook to charge the Opposition with obstruction. He has brought this upon himself by stating the other day that we had not opposed the passing of items for the construction of ships, and that consequently we had committed ourselves to the Government programme. We are now endeavouring to make our objections as plain as we can. It is not from this side of the House alone that opposition is coming. There is no newspaper in this country that has been so loyal to the present party as the Halifax Herald, and we have had extracts from that paper read to-night showing that the Herald is arousing the whole people of Nova Scotia on this question. The Ottawa Journal and the Montreal Gazette take the same view as the Halifax Herald of the Government's policy. You could not name three more loyal papers to the Liberal and Conservative party than these three, yet they are all protesting against the expending of this money.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: When the report of the Merchant Marine does come down, it will be an exact duplicate of the figures I have presented to this House already. I can say further that the annual report of the Board of Directors will not contain nearly such extensive information as I have given to the House.


William Duff: The minister has told us that the amount placed to rest for depreciation is $667,665.46. On the same page you will find that between that amount and the depreciation reserve shown on the consolidated balance sheet there is a difference of $148,175.86.
Mr. BALLANTYNE.: That is the amount of depreciation carried over from last year and added to this.


William Duff: There is no such amount in the 1919 statement as $148,000. I have looked for it.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I said that this amount of $150,000 was carried over from last year and added to this year's depreciation.	.


William Duff: Then it should have appeared in last year's statement but it does not. It does not speak of $148,000, but of $1,056,767.38.
I admit that the minister is in an awkward position, and if he has not the information it is only fair that he should report progress. He said the other day that he was willing to give all information, and there is absolutely no reason why this item should be forced through. We are not trying to block the estimates, but we want to get information in view of the promise given by the minister on March 29, that he would inform the House on these matters.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: If the hon. member will read Hansard he will see that I offered to give every bit of information possible regarding contracts placed for steel ships between the Department of Marine and the shipbuilders. I am prepared to do that.


William Duff: The minister should be
prepared to give information with regard to all of the operations of the Marine. There is an item of $148,000 in regard tc which we want to know something.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: What is before the committee is the 1921 statement. The only item here that is taken from the 1919 figures is the item I have just given of $150, 994.46. I have given frankly and freely all the information I have.


William Duff: I can quite understand that the minister feels we are pressing him too hard.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not at all.


William Duff: The minister need not deny it. At the same time, we are not blocking his estimates.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: You are.


William Duff: That is not quite fair. In
the operating account you have an item for depreciation of $667,000, and in the same column you have an item for something like $880,000 for depreciation. The public will think there is something wrong, and someone has to prove where the differences come in.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Are you not satisfied to take the certificate of such a well known concern as Marwick, Mitchell and Company? If you are not going to accept the operating company's figures, audited by their own auditor, and this reputable firm, the Government cannot possibly do more.


William Duff: The minister is a business
man; he has done business on a larger scale probably than any other man in this House, and he knows how far auditors can go and what information they can obtain. If he will read their statement, he will see that they add a qualifying clause that the information they get is according to the books of the company. They cannot possibly tell what the true facts are.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have seen hundreds of statements of various companies during my time. If an auditor comes to audit your business he has to get the information from you, and he must therefore say that his statement is based on information that is given to him. That is as far as any auditor can go.


William Duff: That is what I say; it is
impossible for Marwick to be absolutely sure that these accounts are correct. Marwick does not know whether the outstanding liabilities are $22,000 or $222,000, and it a well known fact' that that item is not correct.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: How do you know it is not correct? My hon. friend must not suppose that the auditors can go to the Government Marine and make a cursory examination of the books. A firm like Marwick goes closely into these questions. The whole statement falls to the ground if we are to take the position my hon. friend is taking.


William Duff: The minister does not know
whether this is really a profit or not, and I think I am right in saying that no shipping man in the world would make up a statement and say that the Government made money since the first of January on their ships. I do not believe there is a steamer in the world that has made any profits since the first of January, or at all events since September 1, last. And yet, in order to make a good showing, the company puts words into the mouth of the minister and makes him say that he made a profit of $183,000. There is no question that that cannot be correct, and this is another reason why the minister should furnish the Committee with information. The company estimated some $513,000 as profits they expected on unclosed voyages in 1919 and 1920, and the minister expects us to pass this item without any information. If there is one business in the world in connection with which the management cannot predict any sure profits it is the shipping business, and the minister of Customs (Mr. Wigmore) who is present must know that this business is the most precarious in the world. When a ship leaves port, although the owner may know what his expenses are going to be and what the cargo is, nevertheless he can never figure on what his profit will be. He can only tell when his crew are paid off. It is a shame that the Minister should be placed in such a position-to be made to father a statement of that kind, because any man who reads it must know that there is something wrong. There is no justification for figuring a profit of $350,000 on voyages which were not closed.
The minister told us on two occasions that these ships were built so as to increase Canada's export trade, but early this morning, finding that his previous statements would not hold water, he explained the presence of fifteen
8	a.m. ships in Halifax harbour by saying that they are going to be used in the coal trade. Well, they may as well be used in the carrying of coal as lie at anchor in Halifax harbour or take goods to foreign countries at-a loss. But the ministers's argument that his ships were built to increase export trade falls to the ground when he now says that he is going to use practically thirty-three per cent of his ships in the coal trade. Then, there is the curious fact that these ships were built on the Great lakes and subsequently taken elsewhere, although the minister in reply to the hon. member for Maple Creek (Mr. Maharg) practically expressed his willingness this morning to place some of them on the Lakes. Surely that shows bad management somewhere.
Another statement made by the minister in regard to the operation of these ships is rather interesting-and this is a point on which I have not touched before. On page' 1331 of Hansard, in his statement of March 29th, the minister said:
With regard to the costs of operation, it will be found that a comparison of Canadian Government wage costs with like costs of operating similar ships by Great Britain, the United States, Japan, Norway and Prance, is as follows :	-
The monthly wage cost of a Canadian Government merchant marine ship of 8,100 tons

deadweight which carries a crew of 41, including 2 hoys, is $3,7'05. Published figures from an authentic source-(bulletin issued Iby Dow, Jones & Co., of New York), show the monthly wage cost of foreign ships of similar tonnage as being, for British ships $3,924 ; American, $5,3115; Norwegian, $3,378; and Japanese, $2,869.
But I find that quite a different statement in this regard appears in the report of the minister's department. It says:
The following is an approximate comparison of the cost of wages and board per month between a British, an American, a Canadian, and a Japanese steam merchant ship of similar tonnage and dimensions; cost of the British ship for wages and board per month $3,645.09, of the American $6,711.10, of the Canadian $2,3I0,3.50, and of the Japanese $1,124.50.
Now, Sir, I would like the minister to explain the discrepancy which exists between the figures given in these two statements. .


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The explanation
is that the figures given in the departmental report are a year old, whereas the statement I presented to the House, gave the figures up to date.


William Duff: I notice also that in the departmental report it is stated that the pay of the master of the Canadian ship was $250 per month, and that of the master on a Japanese ship $100 per month, and that able seamen on the Canadian ship receive $16.20 per month, and on the Japanese ship $9 per month. Am I to understand that on the Government ships able seamen received last year only $16.20 per month?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am informed that my hon. friend is quoting from the parliamentary report, and that that is a ship of Canadian register operated by a Japanese crew.


William Duff: It does not read that way. It says that an able seaman on a Canadian ship received $16.20 per month.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Those figures do not apply to the Canadian Government Merchant Marine at all but to a Japanese crew on a ship of Canadian register.


William Duff: I should like to know who are the managers and directors of this merchant marine?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The maneger is Mr. R. B. Teakle, for many years with the Allan Line. The directors are Mr. Hanna, Mr. Mitchell, Colonel Cantley, Mr. E. R. Wood, Mr. Barnhill, and Mr. Reilly, of Winnipeg.


William Duff: Mr. Teakle of Montreal may know something about shipping but none of the others do. I think the directors should be competent shipping men, and one
should be located at Halifax and another at Vancouver.


Michael Clark: I would again point out to the minister where we have arrived in this matter, and make another appeal to him, such as I made an hour and a half ago. We have arrived at the position where reason does not prevail, where two sets of grown legislators have resorted to a policy, for some hours at least, of pure force or endurance. The vote before us is upon a policy which is very unpopular in the country. There is no difference on the Opposition side of the House in regard to the subject, and I venture to say that if we had an honest expression of opinion we should find very grave doubts among hon. gentlemen opposite as to the wisdom of this policy. As has been pointed out, three of the leading ministerial papers are opposed to this policy, the Halifax Herald, the Montreal Gazette and the Ottawa Joui-nal. I am pointing these things out in order to induce, if possible, a reflective frame of mind in my hon. friend. My hon. friends to my right cannot be moved; I have appealed to them. They at any rate are sure of defeat, and for this reason, that the Government has the machinery in its own hands by which this impasse can be brought to an end along proper and reasonable lines provided in the legislation of the country. If the Minister cannot get his vote without it, he can get it by the closure, as long as he has a majority behind him. Under these circumstances, what is the use of persisting?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I cannot understand the reasoning of my hon. friend. Surely he can remember that the serious business of the House ceased at midnight when the member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) read a voluminous article in regard to certain ill-treatment which had been meted out to' some seamen on one of the ships. I asked him if he would be good enough not to read the article, as we had all seen it. Not only did he read it, but he deliberately started in again and read it over.


Michael Clark: In response
to an invitation.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Since midnight we have listened to nothing but newspaper re-

ports from the Montreal Gazette, the Halifax Herald, and other papers. I could read reports from newspapers all over the country commending the Government Merchant Marine, but I have too much compassion on the committee to do that. My hon. friend from Red Deer attaches too much importance to what any newspaper says about the Government shipbuilding policy. If he thinks that the press of the country is opposed to that policy, the first time he is in the library let him read the newspapers and he will see that the majority of them are very much in favour of our shipbuilding programme.


Michael Clark: Name some newspapers.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I will not take up the time of the House doing so. Now, questions have been discussed all night and this morning which have been dealt with before, and as leader of the Government at the moment I will say frankly and freely that, in view of the systematic blocking of our estimates since midnight, I certainly will not, at a quarter to nine, agree to report progress.


John Archibald Maharg: I desire to correct the minister. He said that since twelve o'clock we have done nothing but quote newspaper reports.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I leave out the
hon. member.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


John Archibald Maharg: Previously to twelve o'clock I did not say one word. The minister, I will admit, always answered me courteously, and I think he will admit that I never gave him any reason for making a statement of that kind in reference to myself.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My remarks had no reference to the Agrarian party, which is so well represented in this House today.


Michael Clark: It would be ungracious of me not to acknowledge the generosity rf my hon. friend's afterthought. But that is only an illustration of the effect which the strenuousness of this sitting has had upon his intellect. The minister is not fit to go on with the game he is playing.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Do not be alarmed; I am all right.


Michael Clark: I think my hon. friend is exhausted, and I would have to take with more than a grain of salt any figures
which he might give, unless they were well audited by someone else.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am perfectly sober.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I do not want to take issue with my hon. friend the minister, or to entreat him to report progress, but I will not permit his statement to go unchallenged, that there had been systematic blocking of the Estimates since twelve o'clock. The minister has occupied more time than any other member of the committee. The hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) in reading a second time the newspaper article referred to, was only courteously complying with a request from the other side. Now, the minister said he did not quote articles which he could have given by the dozen in commendation of his programme. Well, he had newspaper clippings before him and he deliberately gave them to another hon. gentleman to make use of, and in order that they might be read he had to request a member who had the floor to sit down. I challenge him to deny that statement. It is no use his raising his hands in holy horror and shedding crocodile tears on the misuse of time in this Chamber.
I have taken up a few minutes, and I can inform the hon. gentleman that I am prepared to stay here till three o'clock this afternoon or twelve o'clock to-night and see that the people's interests are safeguarded before this item passes.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Louder.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I will speak just as loud or as quietly as I want to. Now, we on this side will not permit the statement to go unchallenged that we have in any way blocked the Estimates. We have only exercised our right in asking for information which the minister should give us.


Frank S. Cahill: I did not say a word before twelve o'clock last night, and when I did criticise the Government, I did so mildly. When I read from a newspaper, the extract was very short and it was from a newspaper which, although condemning the Government in this case, usually supports it. I am glad the Minister of Railways (Mr. Reid), who is the senior officer in this undertaking, is now in charge of the Estimates. We were told that the Canadian Pacific Railway had ships, and we were asked whether any person would say that they could be sold. The Canadian Pacific Railway ships, I am informed, are not of the kind that we are spending money on.

They are passenger liners running on established routes, while our ships are tramp vessels running all over the country looking for cargo. We were told also that the Canadian National Railway Company could not get along without ships. Well, the Canadian Pacific Railway got along very well without ships. I know that the Great Northern, one of the best railways in the United States, ventured on the shipping business, and went out of it because it was not profitable. But the Canadian Pacific Railway are organized and equipped to take care of international trade to a larger extent than any other organization in the world. I am quite sure the Minister of Railways will not claim that the Canadian Merchant Marine has been an acquisition to the earning power of the Canadian National Railways. It is a mistaken idea that you can assist the National Railways by carrying cargo from South Africa to South America or from Texas to Liverpool. Now, the Government must not try to evade responsibility in this matter by placing it in the hands of an irresponsible body. They have taken a course that will naturally create a great deal of opposition. The Prime Minister, about twenty-four hours ago, appointed a committee to look into the whole question of railways and shipping, and a very few hours after that the Minister of Marine came down with his Estimates and wanted to put this very large sum of money through for his shipbuilding programme. He insisted that he had a programme; that he was going on with it; that nothing would induce him to part with these ships. Well, if any one was unreasonable, it was the Minister of Marine. I hope, therefore, that when the Minister of Railways comes to pass his estimates he will be more generous in the matter of giving information; and that now that he is in the Chamber, he will by furnishing all the information possible, refrain from obstructing the estimates of the Minister of Marine. I do not hesitate to say that I should be glad to obstruct this item if by so doing I could prevent its being passed. I am quite willing to take the responsibility of obstructing in this case; I only wish I could obstruct more successfully than it seems to be in the power of the Opposition to do.


John Dowsley Reid: I think it is hardly fair for the hon. member to say that the Government ships are not bringing traffic to the railways. Last summer I discussed the matter with Mr. Phillips, our agent in London, and he mentioned the fact that our

ships collected a cargo in South Africa, I think it was, for Canada.


John Howard Sinclair: What products come from South Africa to Canada?


John Dowsley Reid: It was a port in Africa or some other foreign country that Mr. Phillips mentioned. In any case, he said that there was a full cargo from that country to Canada. When our vessels go to England or to ports in foreign countries in that part of the world, they do bring return cargoes, and consequently our railways get the benefit.


John Archibald Maharg: Are these cargoes supposed to be shipped to ports where our own railroads will get the traffic?


John Dowsley Reid: If it is a cargo that we can collect for Canada, our railway gets the benefit of it when it is landed.


John Archibald Maharg: But in the case of Canadian Pacific freights, would they go to our roads, or to the Canadian Pacific Railway?


John Dowsley Reid: They work together in order to get a cargo for the vessel. If the Canadian Pacific would ship their freight by our vessel, we would get that advantage; otherwise they might have to send it on one of their own ships or on a tramp vessel at a later date.


John Archibald Maharg: If they gave you their freight to take care of, you would hand it over to them at a port where they would secure the railway haulage?


John Dowsley Reid: If our agent could get' a full cargo at some point, say in South Africa, our vessel would take it. If the Canadian Pacific agent had a part cargo, we might take it and let them receive it at this end. Now, a number of these smaller ships could be used between Sydney and Montreal in the carrying of coal.


John Howard Sinclair: I have pointed out that it is the experience of the manager of the Dominion Coal Company that small ships did not pay in the coal trade and that they found it wiser to use larger ships with big hatches for operation between Nova Scotia and Montreal. If my hon. friend has any large ships, I would advise him to use them in that coal trade, unless he wants to lose money on the business. There may be use for the small ships somewhere, but evidently that is not the place to put them.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: As one of the members who earlier in the night made a few quota-

tions, I wish to say that I have no apology to make for doing so. The Minister of Marine, of course, would not enjoy my reading of the editorial from the Montreal Gazette. I quoted also from the report of the Royal Bank. Any objection on the part of the Minister of Marine to these quotations would be not because of their length, but because they expressed distinct disapproval of his policy. The Minister said some time ago that the Opposition had planned this obstruction. Now, I have noticed that the Minister of Marine always brings up his estimates when they are least expected. Last year, when he was quite aware that a number of members from Quebec were objecting to estimates for the Canadian Navy, he made a point of bringing those estimates down on Saturday evening, when many hon. members from Quebec would be away. But it happened that we were not away; the discussion proceeded forced until midnight, and the Minister was obliged to bring his estimates up on another day. On the present occasion, the minister comes down with his estimates on Monday, private members' day, and at a time when quite a number of members were attending in Montreal the funeral of a former member of the late Laurier administration. It was wholly improper that the minister, about half-past eleven at night, and on such an occasion should ask the committee to consider an important item respecting the merchant marine. Yet the minister wonders why his estimates are not well received and why we raise objection. If he would give notice in the ordinary way that the estimates of the merchant marine would be taken up tomorrow or on a day named, possibly he would not be subjected to this particular treatment. This is a very important item, calling for the expenditure of $8,000,000. I think the point made by the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) is a very strong one-that next year the minister will come down and ask for more millions in connection with his ship-building policy.
This item is a large one compared with some of the other items of the different departments. For the Justice Department, which is a very important department, we find the Government is well satisfied with an item of $2,181,000, as will be seen by reference to pages 11, 12 and 13 of the Estimates. For the Agricultural Department, page 24 of the Estimates, all that is asked is $4,500,000, plus another $1,000,000 authorized by statute. For the carrying on of this important service, which we cannot do without, the Government is satisfied with $5,500,000. But they ask us to vote $8,000,000 for the Merchant Marine, which service results in annual deficits, and we do not know when it will end. I think this comparison is very edifying, and we might refer to the Immigration Department, page 25 of the Estimates. That department is satisfied with $1,500,000, and possibly a few hundred thousand more, to carry on the work of the department. It is absolutely out of place that the Government should ask us to vote $8,000,000 for this fantastic Merchant Marine with which we are loaded. The Department of Health is a most important department, dealing with medicine, hospitals, quarantine stations and so on; but the Government is well satisfied with $700,000 for that department. On page 50 of the Estimates we find that the Government is only asking $2,465,000 for the Lighthouse and Coast Service. This service is not intended for ships which are empty, which the Government did not know where to send or what to put into, but this is a very important service for the general steamship trade of the country. I will not say the amount is not large enough, but, when compared with other items, it seems very reasonable. But by comparison the amount asked for the Merchant Marine is much too large. The amounts asked for by the Fisheries Department, the Labour Department, the Dominion Lands Department, or any other department are smaller than the amount asked for by the Merchant Marine. I think it is unfair that the Minister of Marine should refuse the Committee to rise.
I join with the hon. members on the other side of the House in greeting the Right Hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce, who has just taken his seat. He is a sensible gentleman, and I feel quite sure that when we put our case before him he will advise his colleagues to rise and report progress. I think he will agree that it is utterly improper to ask us to vote this amount this morning. This is Private Members' day, the item is important, and the attendance in the House is very slim. I appeal to the good sense and the prolonged experience of the Right Hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) as to whether we are not right in asking the Committee to rise. We are entitled to more information, and it is not at all unreasonable to ask that this item should stand over for further discussion. When we try to speak from our own knowledge and experience in such matters

we are jeered at and referred to as members who did not know much about the question. When we cite quotations from papers supporting the Government, or from reports of presidents of great financial institutions, we are charged with obstruction and an endeavour to kill time. I think the hon. minister has failed to appreciate the earnest desire of members on this side of the House to obtain information, and perform their duties as representatives of the people. The hon. Minister of Marine argued that the Merchant Marine was a war measure and that when he started shipbuilding he had done it as if he thought the war was going to last forever; he said this was a very proper thing and we could take no chances. He said that while other nations were building wooden ships he would not follow their example, because the ships would be of no use after the war, and we would be loaded with them. My hon. friend had a double mind, a war mind as regards steamships and a peace mind as regards wooden ships.
The experiment of the Government in public ownership was disastrous, and was an utter national catastrophe in regard to railways, and we should not make the same mistake with shipbuilding. The Minister of Marine says that if we have the ships and the railways working together we will have different results and possibly a surplus. The deficits that are creeping up in the Merchant Marine are liable to become as great as the deficits in the administration of the railways. Some day in the future the Minister of Marine will say that it is all right, we have deficits in the railways and in the Merchant Marine, but that is because there is a missing link, and we should build aeroplanes to run in connection with the ships and the railways. When Sir Vincent Meredith, Sir Herbert Ames, and the newspapers supporting the Government condemned these policies, it was about time to stop. I would urge that the Rt. Hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce should advise his colleagues that further discussion should be postponed.


George Green Foster: I have not had the pleasure of sitting the seance through to-night, but I recall old times when I have seen daylight streaming through the window. My hon. friend from St. James (Mr. Rinfret), has appealed to me to ask members on this side of the House to agree to rise and report progress. In order to report progress, we will have to show that some item has been passed which would

indicate that we have made some progress. The item before the House is one for the fulfillment of contracts already let. I am informed that not a single contract for which this money is being asked has been let since the last session of Parliament. These contracts were in conformity to a policy which had been supported and received an affirmative vote in the House, and the contracts were let in the line of a policy which had been determined upon in the House. The contracts having been let and the work having gone on, they must be proceeded with and the contractors must be paid, and the money necessary to complete the vessels must be voted, so as to bring them upon the water, where they can produce returns. Is it reasonable under the circumstances to refuse the vote for the completion of this Work? We have our differences as to policy in this House, but Parliament can never proceed with its work unless the majority rules. The previous vote received the approbation of the House and the money was voted. Is it supposable now that the Government is going to back up, and that no money should be voted to complete the work? That is impossible. If that were done the Government could not retain its self-respect, and could not function. The Government must give such information as can properly be given. I venture to say that no new matter has been introduced during the debate and the subject is worn thread-bare. If the Government is to function they must have the money to carry on the established policy.


Michael Clark: My right hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce has made a brief speech on this subject, but he suffers very great difficulty in not having heard the discussion during the night. If he had heard that discussion he would not have ventured on one of the arguments that he used^ and certainly would not have ventured on the guess that he has made as to what has been going on. He says that if progress had been made he would willingly accede to the request to report progress. That is an endeavour on his part to get round what is ordinary parliamentary formula. He has frequently taken part in the reporting of progress when no item had been voted. I will try to show him that progress has been made during the time he has been enjoying a much-needed rest. His argument is based exclusively on the fact that this $8,000,000, equal to one-fifth of the total expenditure, roughly speaking, of this whole Dominion at the time my right hon. friend ended his

period as financial adviser of the previous Conservative administration, is to complete a contract. In this shipbuilding scheme the Government has not shown any very great respect for contracts. They had a contract in connection with this very scheme with the Dominion Iron and Steel Company of Nova Scotia, a contract in good faith I presume, to take 250,000 tons of steel from the Dominion Iron and Steel Company for this shipbuilding project. Only 40,000 tons have been delivered, and this Government who, my hon. friend says, must observe the sacredness of contract in connection with building ships has cancelled the steel contract and arbitration proceedings are going on now to settle their account with the Dominion Iron and Steel Company.
My right hon. friend also ventured upon the guess that no new matter came out during the night. I may say that a great deal of new matter came out during the night, and I will deal with the new matter in referring to the short speech which the Minister of Railways made just now, of which I did not hear the whole, but which I venture to refer to in regard to the part which I did hear.
He was saying, when I had to leave the House a few minutes ago, that this government building of ships was primarily a war measure. Now, I venture to take direct issue with my hon. friend, if he means that it was a war measure undertaken, of necessity, by the Government. We elicited very important information in regard to that during the night-very important, as far as I was concerned, during the period since twelve o'clock which my hon. friend, the Minister of Marine said a few minutes ago had practically been wasted. That hon. minister himself told us that when this shipbuilding scheme of this Government was taken up, the Imperial Munitions Board had been for some time engaged at fourteen different points in Canada, marshalling all the forces that Canada could spare of men and material for shipbuilding; had been doing all that Canada could do in addition to her almost superhuman efforts in the field. I take the ground that the hon. Minister of Railways could not have known all about this scheme or he would not have claimed that this was undertaken in the first instance as a war measure. It was transferred from the Imperial Munitions Board, who were doing the work splendidly, and who would have had this very great advantage in the doing of
the work, that they would have been able to stop it at the end of the war,-transferred not the better to attend to the war, but transferred to the Dominion Government with this idea in the back of the hon. Minister's head-and I take it with this idea also in the Government's head-that the busines might be undertaken [DOT] as a Canadian work, and the benefits presumably passed into the pockets of Canadians; so, I say, the defence that this was a war measure falls to the ground. The Minister of Railways has used the argument in this House-and we have heard it during the night, we heard it last evening-that the shipping scheme of the Government is a necessary complement of the National Railways. Well, now, the thing that we cannot get over in that connection is this: This Dominion is very short of money at the present time, all railroad extensions within Canada have had to cease, and I commend the Government for their firmness in that connection. We have had a report in connection with the Canadian railways which, to say the least, of it, ought to make every member of this House, whether on the Government or on the Opposition side, anxious about the financial condition of these roads and the financial condition of the whole country. The duty of the Opposition comes in at this point to find out exactly what is going to be done with the vote of $8,000,000 and what the Government hope for. Now, if we are to regard the shipping scheme as the complement of the railway scheme, and if we could have the assurance that the shipping scheme was going to be such a success in the next few years, that it will help the railways out of the hole, we on this side of the House should be satisfied. Will the Minister of Trade and Commerce say he has any hope that this shipping scheme will help the railroad scheme?


An Hon. MEMBER:: Certainly.


Michael Clark: My hon. friend says " Certainly," then he must prove to us how two deficits will mhke a surplus. That is the financial difficulty that is bothering the humble individuals on this side of the House. I do not know who it was who interrupted me with that confident adverb, " Certainly." Whoever used it is omniscient in railroad and shipping matters. If he believes that this shipbuilding scheme, this building of ships at a time when ships are a drug, not only in the Canadian market, but in the markets of the world, is

justified economically and will help in the railway situation, to meet the deficits on the railways of forty millions last year and seventy millions, this year,-well, we cannot see how two deficits are going to make a surplus, and how a small deficit is going to help to meet a bigger one. I want to get to very close quarters with this scheme, and I want to tell the right hon. the Prime Minister and the Government exactly what is troubling him, and to give my right hon. friend, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, some information that we have received during the night. I wonder if my right hon. friend has any idea how many of these ships are in Halifax harbour at the present time. I do not think he know's. Well, we have been here all night, and we have the information. There are fifteen of them. I do not think they are two years old. And what are they doing in Halifax harbour? The Halifax Herald, a journal which generally supports this Government with might and main says they are tied up to the wharves and doing nothing. We heard during the night from the minister that they were being overhauled. Well, the overhauling of fifteen ships within two years of being turned out by this Government is a pretty serious operation for the people of this country. And what else is going on at Halifax? Will he (Sir George Foster) believe that, with these fifteen ships tied up in the Halifax harbour and their counterparts sailing over the seven seas seeking cargoes in Scandinavian and other ports, and not finding them; with their capital value cut in the middle

there are now two new ships being built in Halifax harbour? Does he not think this is a work of supererogation and that there is danger of financial disaster if this policy is continued? Does my right hon. friend wonder that we, on this side of the House, are anxious and that we do not want this work to go further without the country being fully apprised of the facts and understanding the situation of the shipping scheme at the present moment? Why, I ventured to indulge in a flight of imagination during the night. I wondered if a man from Mars, if he were intelligent, who came to Halifax harbour for the first time and looked over it with one of the Government supporters and saw the condition of affairs-I wondered what he would think of the inhabitants of this planet and especially of this country and the members of the Dominion Government. He would naturally say, " Well, what are these 
fifteen ships doing here idle? They look to be pretty new. The paint is hardly off them." He would have to be informed, " They are getting overhauled. They have been for two years pulling us out of our railroad deficit, and they have now come into this harbour to be overhauled." Now, if he were of an inquisitive turn of mind he would take the Government supporter to where the two new ships were being built and ask: " What are these ships for?" " Oh, these are new ships to join the company of the idle ships that are getting overhauled." Then what would he say? If, as I have presumed to imagine Mars is inhabited by intelligent people he would say " Get me an aeroplane, and let me go back to the planet Mars where there are intelligent people, for I cannot find any intelligence in the Dominion Government." He would be compelled to say that if he were intelligent, which I have presumed to imagine.
I had sworn to myself I would not say any more about the merits of this scheme. My hon. friend the Minister of Marine will tell the House I have occupied very little time during the night. Indeed for the last four or five hours the men who have been debating the merits of this scheme have been growing so strong that I could not get a word in edgeways except to promote walking in the paths of peace. I have been endeavouring in the last four or five hours to get the Minister of Marine to listen to reason, and as I am on my feet I will tell my right hon. friend (Sir George Foster) the advice I have been giving him. I have pointed out to him that this scheme is doubtfully popular, that the Government's hold in this House is a slender one, that their tenure of the country is still more doubtful, and that it would have been the part of wisdom to use the legal regular machinery for terminating this debate. I fully concede-my right hon. friend knows I concede it before I say so, and as I have said before on critical occasions this session-a government is constitutionally a government as long as it has a majority of the House behind it. But my right hon. friend knows	his	Shakespeare:	"It is excellent to have a	giant's	strength, but itis tyrannous	to	use it	like	a giant,"and what	I	tried	to	impress
upon the immature and inexperienced parliamentary mind of my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries was that it would be a wise thing to let the few of us who feel very keenly on this sub-

ject go home some hours ago and then he could meet the House later and put his estimate through by the legalized procedure of the closure. What are we going to gain by sitting here hour after hour? I do not know what the proper machinery will be for bringing this seance, as my right hon. friend has called it, to a close. I am not very well up on how the guillotine is operated in this country, but I understand that notice is needed. In any case I refer this matter to my right hon. friend in a conciliatory spirit, which the Minister of Marine will admit I have displayed again and again at this sitting-I said hours ago that as far as I was concerned I did not believe in the policies of force. I have only a distant connection with my hon. friends to the right; I was only supported by one member of the Progressive group for hours; so that I could not do more than suggest a certain line of conduct. We have arrived at an impasse in which physical force is being used. Now the closure is physical force, but it is physical force reinforced by reason, and carried out in a reasonable way. And I say to my right hon. friend, (Sir George Foster) who is now leading the House, that he should consider that aspect of the case. We cannot refuse the estimate; the Government is in power, and we cannot refuse it. But we can surely take two nights to discuss it, and if the night runs into the morning, then it is an obstinate minister that is to blame and not an inquisitive Opposition. May I show my right hon. friend the reasonableness of what I am saying by reminding him that ten years ago he himself took a leading part in holding up estimates, in holding up the House of Commons against the beneficent measure of reciprocity, most of which he himself has since helped to carry, and he did that not for two nights only, but for days and days, and weeks and weeks, and almost months, until he forced the Liberal Government to go to the country. Now there is no power in an Opposition to do that now, because my right hon. friend has the closure as every civilized country in the world has been compelled to have it, so it is only a question of following properly arranged and legalized machinery, instead of methods which are perfectly natural to a strong-minded and decided character who has spent his life in business, like my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, but are utterly foreign alike to the nature and experience of my right hon. friend who leads the
House. I pray the Minister of Marine to postpone his eagerness to get his estimate through, and to consider the new matter we have brought out during the night in as favourable a light as he can, and to meet me half way, and seize the olive branch which I offer on behalf of the recalcitrant group to my right.


Mr. FONTAINE (Hull) :: (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, I rise to endorse the appeal made to the Government by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark) that they may consent to adjourn and report progress.
I heard a moment ago the hon. Minister of Commerce (Sir George Foster) who had just re-entered the House and upon whom we counted to induce his colleagues to show themselves amenable to common sense, say that it was difficult to report progress as no progress had been made. It seems to me on the contrary that we have accomplished much. The members of this Parliament who opposed this item of eight million dollars have spent the night here defending the interests of the country and trying to obtain information which, unfortunately, were denied them by the Minister of Marine. The only information we obtained-I heard the hon. member for Red Deer mention it a moment ago-is that at the present moment there are fifteen vessels lying idle in the port of Halifax. It is most astonishing that the Minister of Marine should come before this House and ask for a vote of eight million dollars for boats when we already have more boats than what we know what to do with.
The hon. Minister of Commerce pretended that it is a matter of abiding by a contract. I am much astonished at hearing members of the Government speak of abiding by a contract. I remember many contracts which the Government repudiated; many times when their word had been given they broke their word. I find them now strangely ticklish on the point of honour and of abiding by their word. They have not accustomed us to this.
Eight millions is an enormous sum while we only vote four millions for the Department of Agriculture. Do you not think it would be more to the point to vote eight millions for model farms, for the improvement of means of communication in the rural districts? It seems to me that eight millions given for the development of agriculture would be the very best investment at present.
We are opposed to the merchant fleet because we believe we don't need it. I heard

members of the Government tell us, "But you, of the Liberal party, have you not favoured a marine, have you not advocated a marine?" Quite so, Mr. Chairman, but to-day circumstances are altogether different. We are no longer in pre-war times, when the German danger was abroad. It seems to me that now every dollar should be used for reconstruction and for the promotion of agriculture, and not for building boats, which is throwing money away. I now ask of the Government not to force us to sit day and night until they have their gag ready. I humbly invite them to be willing to abide by common-sense, in order to allow the members of this House to go and rest. It seems to me that it should not be necessary to talk to them for days and nights in order to make them understand that an expenditure of eight millions for boats at the present time is an extravagance which we, on this side of the House, cannot allow to pass. If the Government want absolutely this item to be adopted, there is no use in our sitting here any longer, let them have the courage to rise, let the right hon. Minister of Commerce, who is now leading the House (Sir George Foster) rise boldly and put on the gag, the machine which they invented and patented in order to silence us. We shall leave the matter to the electors of the country for them to pronounce between the two parties. We shall submit to the gag here, confident as we are that they will understand that we have acted as we have through love of duty and care for their interests.
You know it, Mr. Chairman, the Government no longer possesses the confidence of the country. The Government have no mandate and the electors would be much surprised if we did not oppose this expenditure. I say that this expenditure is not necessary, first because the Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) is at a loss for taxes to meet the interest on our war debt. From January to December he racks his brain to find means for meeting our liabilities. Then, why this expenditure which, in my judgment, is quite useless? I heard a few days ago the right hon. Prime Minister say that owing to the financial situation, he had decided to reduce by 25 per cent the bonus for the civil servants. The Government have no money to pay the civil service, and they ask us to vote eight millions to build ships which we don't need, probably with the object of benefiting political friends.

Mr. Chairman, why does the Minister of Marine seem to take offence? I heard him say, about six o'clock this morning: "The hon. members of the Opposition have spent the whole night reading newspaper extracts and repeating the same thing over and over again." Why, are we not justified in taking every possible means to prevent the adoption of this item? And since the hon. ministers will not yield to common sense and to the arguments submitted by us, is it not our right and our duty to resort to the constitutional means at our disposal, in order to check this expenditure? As I said a moment ago, since the Government is unwilling to supply any information or to pay any heed to our arguments, let them have no hesitation in resorting to force. As a general rule, they are not afraid to do so. Why should they spend all this time uselessly? Why not apply the gag right away?
I do not think Parliament would be justified in voting this item. I say, again, that when we are bound to burden ourselves with such sacrifice, when the ratepayers of this country have to disburse such enormous amounts in the shape of taxes, when the Minister of Finance keeps imposing tax over tax, it is unreasonable on the part of the Government to have us vote items amounting to eight millions, without even supplying the information that all the members of this House have a right to get.	.
The Minister of Marine seems to become extravagant, or rather has he always been so. I understand that a man, used as he is to handle millions, may be unable to fancy that we would reduce the amount of the vote he is asking; but he must remember that all the rate-payers and citizens of this country have not had, like himself, the good fortune to belong to all kinds of companies paying big dividends and having paid still larger dividends, during the war, on account of the war. We, citizens of this country, who are sitting on this side of the House, belong to the people, and we ask, in the name of the people, that the members of the Government should return to the right path and yield to our legitimate demand. Should the Government wish to go on with the debate in this style, let them be assured of our strength, of our resolution, of our earnest desire to do our duty to the extent of sitting here as long as they may like us to. We are ready, however, to adjourn; but let not the Government or the Minister of Marine fancy that they are going to wear us out. Perhaps we are not the majority, but we have the

courage and we know that we are performing our duty. We are not so numerous as is the other side of the House, but I may well say, Mr. Chairman, that we have the satisfaction to know that we are doing our duty by sticking to the position we did take, and, thank God, the members of the Opposition will keep doing their duty to the last minute. Useless is it for the Government to think or to fancy that they will wear us out. We are going to follow them up and I do not think they should resist any longer. Let them use the gag, the weapon which they are so fond of, the public is in expectation of that, after all. Here is what my electors have kept telling me for a long time: "Doctor, you hold a seat in the House, you allow to pass all manner of expenditure to the amount of millions, we are driven to wretchedness, the city is filled with unemployed people, the shops are closed, we shall soon have to depend on public assistance to save our citizens from starving." Meanwhile, the magnates of the Government, the millionaires, the presidents of the big companies will force us to sit during the whole night because they wish to get more millions and to keep on piling up money for themselves and their political friends. How is that?
I think I voice the wish of my electors in rising to speak at this hour of the day, and I am sure they will give me credit for it. It is my candid opinion that the Government is wrong and should not persist in its pertinacity, it being admitted that pertinacity is an ill-adviser. I am surprised to see that the hon. Minister of Commerce, who has so much experience, who has grown old in politics, does not make his colleague, the Minister of Marine, listen to reason. I understand that the Minister of Marine may be liable to stubbornness as he is younger, more fiery, more enthusiastic, and as he has been a minister for just a couple of years, but the Minister of Commerce, an old man who has spent fifty years of his life in politics, should not listen to this ill-adviser called stubbornness, he should rather bring the members of the Government back to reason and say to them: "Since the Opposition is eager to obtain further information, since they will not let this item pass before they have been supplied with sufficient information, all right, we will adjourn and give them the information they want."
Moreover, the members of the Government and more particularly the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce, know this by experience. It was not my privilege to
occupy a seat in this House at the time of the reciprocity measure, but I have been told that the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce had led obstructionist tactics against that measure for months. That shows once more that a stubborn man never wants woe. A few years ago, the members of the Government, who were then in Opposition, fought against that policy which was to bring happiness to every farmer of this country; to-day you may see them ready to run to Washington asking for favours and willing to accept anything. Why should we not make the most of past experience and why, glancing backwards, seeing that ten years ago he committed serious blunders to the detriment of the country, does not the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce listen to reason and acknowledge for once at least that we are right and should have every needed information? For, after all, when it is a matter of spending the people's money, Mr. Chairman, if you only knew how conscientious, how timorous I am. Had the hon. Minister of Marine himself to pay the eight millions, I can assure you he would not be so much in a hurry and would willingly grant the wish of those who surround him and who want some explanations. Unfortunately the money belongs to [DOT]the people and they do not care when spending other people's money.
Mr. Chairman, I beg the hon. Minister of Marine to think the matter over. It seems to me that his political training would have caused him to act otherwise, but I realize that his connection with the hon. members on the other side of the House has quite altered his nature. Formerly, when he was president of the Montreal Harbour Commissioners, the hon. Minister of Marine would not have had that Tory tendency towards compelling people to vote millions of dollars without even supplying them with the necessary information. It hurts me to see that he has agreed to sit on the other side of the House where, coming in touch with such sinners, he has become a greater sinner than them. Once more, I believe it is useless for the Government to hold on. Were they to compel us to sit until three o'clock in the afternoon, their situation would not be any fairer nor any better.
Besides, the whole press of this country, save those papers that are paid to stand by the Government, the fairly independent press that ponders is against that expenditure for the marine; the press that often

sides with the Government is opposed to all this expenditure. What is the reason of that stubborn determination to build a fleet, in spite of the members of this House, were they free to act according to their convictions; for, could we read what is in the heart of every member on the other side, we would see that, like us, they are against that expenditure. However, the rod brings them into submission and besides they fear the elections. These gentlemen know very well that were they by a mishap to compel the Government to go before the people, they would never come back here. I am afraid interest is the prime mover in their actions, I apprehend we will not have a free and independent jury in this House so as to do justice to the people, because they are too selfish.
It seems to me that persons having as much experience as the members of the Government have should halt a moment, think the matter over and realize they are going astray. They may by such an expedient, thanks to their majority, hold on to power until next year, until the elections, but they must know that by such a behaviour, by ignoring the voice of the people, by gagging the House, they are doing unpopular acts which the electorate will be well able to judge at the proper time. I am not here to offer any advice to the Government-God forbid such a pretension on my part-but it seems to me they ought to reflect. Sometimes a fair word does no harm, no matter where it comes from, be it from the most humble being, from the most unassuming workingman. Before resuming my seat, I say once more to the members of the Government to think it over, to see in what situation they are placing themselves before the country and the electorate. From my own viewpoint, they might above all let the committee report progress because, after all, the farther they go along that path, the more they harm themselves in the eyes of the electorate, so for us on this side who are raising objections, we deem that in doing so we are doing our duty, that in acting in that way we are keeping our trust as the representatives of the people. At this time, when we have no money, when industries have had to close, when the people are in distress, it seems to me that it is a most unpardonable -extravagance to ask us to vote a million dollars, especially when this money is to be voted without serious thought being given to it, without the necessary information. I think the members of Parliament have certain

rights. I understand that we are not entitled to such privileges as are enjoyed by members of the Government, I admit that we are very modest, very humble, that we do not, as does the hon. Minister of Marine, belong to powerful companies, yet, I think that we are entitled to fair play, and that the Government are wrong in refusing to give the information that we have been asking for. Besides, has not every member the right to obtain full information? What would our electors say should we vote millions of dollars without requiring that the Government render us a detailed and conscientious account of such expenses as have been made?
Mr. Chairman, it is most important that the members of the Opposition fulfil their duty, and let me say so, we shall read with pride and satisfaction, in the papers, that we have fought bravely all night through, so as to bring the Government to its senses.
I would like to say one word more before I resume my seat. I notice that the hon. Minister of Marine is not in his seat, but I hope that the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Reid') or the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce will stand up and declare that they are ready to give, in to our fair request, and as they are not well informed and they are not sufficiently acquainted with all the items, since it is because of ignorance on their part that we cannot obtain any information, let us grant them the benefit of the doubt:	I hope they
will soon adjourn so as to allow them to secure this information, which they can afterwards impart to us.
In behalf of the country, in behalf of those whom I have the honour to represent, I beseech the Government to do justice to our claim, to do right by our country, and I ask all the members of the Opposition to stand firm in their rights so that the Government shall surrender.


Mr. MICHAUD:: (Translation.) I wish to ask my hon. friend a question concerning the ships which are in the harbours of St. John and Halifax. It appears that there are at the present moment fifteen ships at Halifax:	Does my hon. friend know how
many of those ships which are now in St. John's harbour belong to the Department of Marine?


Joseph-Éloi Fontaine: I believe that the Government ships which are at present in the St. John's Harbour are absolutely idle.


Mr. McCREA:: Mr. Chairman, members
on the other side of the House have been accusing those on this side of obstructing,

stating that we had formed plans and schemes to obstruct the Government; but as one of the members who have been sitting here all night I wish to assure the hon. minister that that has not been" my purpose. It is not a matter of pleasure or a matter of satisfaction to sit here all night; I am here to get information on both sides, as far as possible. I wish to hear the arguments for and against. I have heard a good deal of sound argument showing why this marine should not have been undertaken. Our friends on this side of the House have been asking for information, and I am very sorry to say they got but little. The least the minister of this department, or the minister of any other department, in bringing estimates before the House and asking to have them voted, could do would be to come forward with all the necessary information possible. Suppose this marine were undertaken by private corporation, and the general manager of the corporation at a general meeting came before the directors, and they asked him a lot of questions, and he said "Oh no, I do not feel like giving you this information," do you think they would tolerate that kind of thing from their manager or president or any other officer? It appears, we have constructed some 47 vessels and put them afloat. I believe we should have the date that every vessel was launched and a statement of the cargoes they carried, and what money they made or lost, separately. Then when we had this information as to the prospects or outlook for those vessels as a paying investment, we would probably have more courage to go on and vote more money to complete the project, but I have sat here all night trying to obtain information. I have not voted either on this question or any other question without information, and I do not propose to vote on this question until I get all the information possible, so that I may form a sound and as well-reasoned judgment as I can as to whether this project was a wise or foolish one.
After listening to the argument and the information given, from what little knowledge I have of the shipping business I concluded that it was the height of foolishness for this Government to undertake to build vessels at all. During the war no doubt everybody was doing everything possible in the way of building ships and making munitions; and all this kind of thing, for the purpose of winning the war. Every manufacturer in this country was busily engaged in making munitions of war. But
when the war was over we stopped, immediately shut up the shops and ceased making munitions. Why did they not do the same thing with shipbuilding? But they say, "These contracts were let." Was it wisdom on the part of the Government to let contracts which would not be completed for three years? Why did they not let the contract for the building of one or two or three vessels, but not more than could be finished within six months, and when that one was completed, if the war was still continuing, and we needed more vessels, let the contract to build another? But the letting of contracts by the Government for the building of some 63 or 64 vessels at a cost of some $60,000,000 to $70,000,000, and coming to the House and saying they were built for war purposes, is worse than nonsense-it was foolishness.
Ever since I came to the House, I have questioned the wisdom-or the foolishness- of constructing so many railways. Indeed,, the consensus of opinion on both sides is that too many railways have been built. But the Government have said: "Oh, yes, but it was your party which commenced these railways, and we had to finish them." In 1911, when the then Opposition appealed to the electors for support, their cry in the Eastern Townships was that the then Government, of which the late Sir Wilfrid Laurier was the leader, were not business men, and hon. gentlemen then stated to the people that if they were returned to power they would adopt and apply business principles. Well, if they had carried out their undertaking, the very very first thing they would have done upon taking office would be to carry out an investigation of the railway projects and of any projects involving the considerable expenditure of public money with a view to seeing whether the expenditure was wise or unwise. Then, as business men, they should have caused any projects found to be unwise and uncalled for to be discontinued right then and there. But my hon. friends did not do that; yet they come to us now and say: We "were simply completing what you people commenced. The least we would expect from intelligent men-and I think there are some intelligent men on that side of the House- is that they would profit by the mistakes made in connection with the building of railways. If experience is worth anything, was not the building of transcontinental lines, for which there is no traffic, not a simple reason for caution before any programme of building vessels was undertaken? There is some justification for the



building of railways, even if traffic is not offering for them at the moment; there is the possibility of developing our natural resources and of encouraging settlement. But the building of ships is quite a different matter; a ship built at Halifax can sail any sea and call at any port. Before the war shipping was not a paying proposition; for years men who had put their money in ships were not making money. Now, I have done a little shipping and in the particular line of goods with which I have to do, the pre-war rate from the ports of Canada-* Montreal, Quebec, Halifax, St. John-to the ports of England or Scotland was anywhere from thirteen to sixteen cents a hundred. The rate during the war from and to the same ports was anywhere from $1.60 to $1.80. In other words, the rate went up more than twelve times. And the Government launch out on a ship-building programme. When this question came up last session, the minister made the argument that the operation of thd Government -ships was a paying proposition. Well, I would like to know why it would not be a paying proposition, in view of the tremendous increase in rates. But when you have regard to all the information-such information as we have got-it is very doubtful whether the operations were really on a paying basis. It is said that a net profit of some 2.35 per cent was realized. Is that a good profit, having regard to the fact that rates were about twelve times what they were in pre-war days? To-day the rate on the same class of goods is about 55 cents a hundred, or more than three times the rates under normal conditions. But with fifteen of these vessels already tied up, unable to get cargoes, nothing to do, and the rates dropping every day, what do you think of the chances of vessels constructed at a cost of $192 a ton? The ordinary cost of constructing vessels in normal times was about $50 a ton, or one-quarter of what it cost the Government to build its ships. The Government ships then, built at a cost of about $200 a ton, are going out to compete with vessels built at $50 a ton? Do you think they have any chance of success? Absolutely none. I venture to say that even if these fifteen vessels' that are tied up could get cargoes, they would make a smaller loss by remaining at anchor, because I doubt very much if they would get rates that would pay the cost of operation, to say nothing about profit.
Mr. Chairman, I surely will not he accused of obstructing because this is the first time that I have been on my feet to 
address the House or the committee since the session opened. I should not rise to take up the time of the committee now had I not wished to express my opinion that this is one of the rankest, most foolish, most unjustifiable expenditures that the Government has ever made on railways or on anything else. There is some justification, as I have said, for building new railroads into new territories to develop new sections of the country, but no argument of this kind can possibly apply to the carrying out of an extensive shipbuilding programme. If we had large surpluses at our disposal, there might then be some justification for experimentation in shipbuilding and the carrying out of a large shipbuilding programme. But we have $70,000,000 of a deficit in railway operations alone; in fact, if the Minister of Railways brought down a correct statement, making a fair allowance for depreciation of rolling stock, roadbed, and everything else, the deficit would be nearly twice $70,000,000.


John Dowsley Reid: Oh, no.


Francis N. McCrea: The minister shakes his head, but I want to tell him that the depreciation on rolling stock, ties, rails, and on everything else pertaining to a railway would run into a tremendously large sum. I do not find that he has made any allowance for this depreciation, nor has he, sc far as I can see, made any allowance for capital invested.


John Dowsley Reid: The hon. member has not read the statement or he would not say that.


Francis N. McCrea: What allowance has the Minister made for the capital invested in these roads? What allowance for depreciation of rolling stock, road-bed, and everything else? No, I am not fond of talking: in fact, I would rather avoid it. But I did not sit up all night on this occasion simply for the love of sitting up; I have passed that stage. But I think I owe something to the constituency I represent, and besides, I try to represent the people of Canada, so far as my ability goes. I consider that I would be far from doing my duty if I sat quiet and allowed this vote to go through without making a strong protest. So far as I am concerned, I propose to remain here until this item is withdrawn, or until it is put through by closure.


Mr. FORTIER:: (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, I wish to join with the brave phalanx of the Opposition and prevent the

Government from committing such an act as they would be blamed for by the people. Together with the electors I have the honour to represent I object to this vote or $8,000,000 for the Canadian merchant marine. I do not think that the reasons given by the Minister of Marine, at the beginning of the debate, can in anyway whatever justify the Government in.voting such large sums as this for the continuation of a useless undertaking.
I was in my seat when the hon. Minister of Marine rose to speak in favour of the building of a merchant marine. He told us that his reasons were these: Firstly, because it bad been a war undertaking and therefore must be continued; secondly, because the country owned the railways, and our transportation facilities must be co-ordinated; we must add to our railways a fleet of merchant ships; thirdly, he said Canada must carry out her treaties with foreign countries, and this is required to complete our transportation system. Let us take his reasons one by one. After having considered each of these reasons, I feel justified in objecting to vote this sum. In fact, if the merchant marine has been altogether a war undertaking, we should, now that the war is finished since several years, discontinue all works undertaken because of the war. That which is most important to-day, for the country, is to forget the war: when Canadian finances were involved to such an extent as will bear not only on the present generation but also on several generations to come. After the armistice had been signed, Cabinet ministers and especially the Minister of Finance told us that we had entered upon a new era that we must give up expending such large sums as we had been obliged to do during the years of great sacrifices; what we must now do was to practise economy and encourage production.
The period of reconstruction is beginning; let us turn our efforts towards a new era of economy and production. On this condition only Canada may be able to meet its obligations and to look into the future with confidence.
Now, the second reason invoked by the hon. Minister of Marine is that we must build this merchant marine in order to complete our transportation system. For several sessions we have been told of the nefarious work of the Government in nationalizing the railways. We have the proof now that the country is involved in enormous expenditure, in yearly deficits which reach over fifty millions and will still increase; we have the proof, I say, that there was no necessity for the Government to acquire those railways. We have indulged in an undertaking the consequence of which is to pile on taxes which will burden the country for ever. Now, why should the present Government want to add to this enormous liability incurred by the acquisition of the railways, almost as large an indebtedness for the construction of a merchant marine. If the railways, as has been several times stated, are too huge for the present population of the country, if a vast immigration policy is needed to give these railways the employment they now lack, why tack to this railway system a merchant fleet which will have no employment either? This second reason advanced by the Minister of Marine does not hold good. It only shows more plainly the utter uselessness of this policy.
Thirdly, he said, we must seek commercial treaties with foreign countries, and to that end it is necessary to have mercantile ships. I understood that it is in the country's interest to seek commercial treaties with the neighbouring republic. I understood that, from generation to generation, the policy of the government-whether Liberal or Conservative-has always been to secure commercial treaties with our neighbours; I understood that even in spite of the absence of treaties, Canada has no better ally than the United States and that it would continue to deal with the Americans. Whatever have been the barriers raised between the two countries, whatever have been the customs duties imposed on the exchange of our commercial products, they have not prevented Canada from dealing with the United States far more than with any other country in the world. Therefore what is the use of building ships to go and beg for commercial treaties with the West Indies or some unknown country of South America, when we have by our side the American republic which is interested in dealing with us, and when it is our constant interest to deal with it? Besides is not the present Government rather inclined to secure commercial treaties with the United States? It is surely the policy of the Opposition ; it is certainly the policy which was adopted at the great convention held here in 1919. I for one would see with the utmost-satisfaction new treaties on the basis of reciprocity which we fought for in 1911, and which allowed the producers of this country to carry on a profitable commerce with the neighbouring republic.

The two principal reasons which induced me to rise and oppose this enormous vote of eight millions are the following: First, the debts and the liabilities of the country do not allow us to embark upon such considerable expenditure. Mr. Chairman, I would not at this moment put before the committee the lamentable picture of the enormous debt with which the country is encumbered, and which reached two billions; of the yearly liabilities which Canada has to meet; of the interest upon the debt; of the expenditure involved in our participation in the war; of the war pensions which amount to an annual disbursement of over fifty millions; and moreover, of the lamentable liabilities incurred for the acquisition of the railways and for the building of the merchant marine. Ministers have told us that the country has annually to face deficits on account of their railway policy, deficits which amount to more than fifty millions, and which will next year probably reach one hundred millions. We also know that on account of this merchant marine building policy, the country will again face annual deficits. These are only incipient and will, of course, grow annually, all these obligations which to-day burden our Canadian Budget will, not allow us to think of such a stupendous undertaking as this one.
In order to meet these yearly deficits of our Canadian finances, the Government has been forced to have recourse to this abominable system of taxes. No doubt, it is necessary, to meet the war expenditures, that taxes be levied whatever may be the cause of their assessment, however, it is not less true that in their results they are odious, when they are levied on the income and specially when their consequence is to bring misery in the Canadian homes, and to-day the taxes levied on the ratepapers are more odious than any of those that may have been imposed in the past. They are levied upon the income of the humblest, upon the head of families that have to support their children and are forced to borrow to meet this tax.
But this is not the only consequence of this disastrous policy of unlimited expenditure brought on by the Government. Another which glares at us in this Capital, has been the extraordinary treatment meted out to the Civil Service. For instance, but a few days ago we saw in the press and even heard, I believe, through the official channel of the Government's representatives, that the civil employees of the Dominion Government will have to put up

with a curtailment in their bonus. Are you aware, Mr. Chairman, of what a curtailment in the bonus means at the presenl time? Are you aware what a curtailment of bonus means to this large number of civil employees who support a family, many of whom have sacrified their career to give their country the best part of their life, do you realize what this means in the year 1921? They had come to look upon, for the last few years, this bonus as an integral part of their salary, and the Government were obliged to admit that it was absolutely necessary to permit them to exist. In reality, if there is a bonus which can be considered as an integral part of the salary which a civil employee receives, it is certainly that bonus which was given to them since these years of war, since the high cost of living. I would like to see the name of bonus disappear and the employees, who after all would not be drawing such a high salary owing to the maintenance of the high cost of living, receive to-day as a permanent salary, his present one plus the bonus received for the last few years. Instead of fully considering this question as it should be, that is judiciously, we find the Government depriving the civil employees of part of their income at a time when the high cost of living has not decreased. Rents, for instance, far from going down, are on the upward trend, and the cost of living maintains itself at a high level and if anything threatens to rise. Therefore no justification exists for the Government to lower the salary and particularly the bonus which the civil employee receives. They will put forward as a reason that the expenditures are heavy, that Canada's obligations are numerous and that they must economize and clip the salaries of the civil employees in order to continue to administer the coun-[DOT] try's business. But what contradictions do we not find in the Government's attitude, on the one hand cutting down the civil employee's bonus and on the other trying to force a vote to-day for $8,000,000 for its merchant marine building policy, when this undertaking is not justified, the war being over, when we should enter on a period of reconstruction, when we should economize the most and when, lastly, instead of spending uselessly as the Government wishes to do, we should busy ourselves with reconstruction work.
It was justly pointed out during this debate, that the Government want this enormous sum to be voted so as to continue the construction of ships, when they have but small amounts placed to the credit of agri-

culture and other important departments of the Administration. There is but $4,000,000 placed to the credit of agriculture and yet they wish to pass a vote, for this year, of over $8,000,000 for the building of ships. It would be wiser to increase, if the country's finances will permit it, the subsidies to agriculture than to continue to vote money for these merchant ships. There are many openings in our dear Canada where the Government could well spend money to help the agricultural interest. They have told us that in the future they would encourage the establishing of experimental farms. There are many places, and I could indicate some in our province and in my . county, where the Government might well encourage agriculture by establishing some of these experimental farms.
As it was remarked a few days ago, there is a movement towards agriculture and all eyes are turned to the host of farmers who are the important producers of this country. We see the reason why the Government, in order to beget a little popularity, has promised to expand that policy of establishing experimental farms; however we are still waiting. I do not see any in my section, and certainly it is a place where one should exist, in that colonizing territory. No doubt, it is important that these farms should be established in the more settled parts of the country, in the St. Lawrence valley and in the different parts of the other provinces, but if there are places where these agricultural subsidies would have the best results, it would certainly be in those colonizing parts, such as Labelle where in the midst of the Lau-rentian hills a new region of cultivable land is being opened under beautiful blue skies and amongst evergreen hills where is to be found a very energetic population, forming to-day one of the important centres of the province. It is in those places where experimental farms should be established, and instead of spending money for the building up of a navy, it is in encouraging agriculture, if there is money to spend, that this money would be better placed. The second reason I invoke to oppose the vote of this amount, is that to-day this merchant marine is absolutely useless. Indeed, it is in this debate that the fact came out. Certainly, the number of ships built or acquired by the Government up to date, is too large. Of what use are these ships? Are they employed on trips from which we derive some returns such as to transport our products to countries with which we have commercial treaties
for the exchange of produets or are they not awaiting in some port or another the cargo that luck will bring their way? It was shown in this very sitting of the House, that there are in the port of Halifax fifteen of these ships which are at anchor for the last few days. No one knows when they will obtain a cargo. This brings out the uselessness of our merchant ships and the futility of the Government's policy on that question.
Instead of spending money to acquire new ships would it not be wiser, now that the Government is in possession of almost all our railways with the exception of the Canadian Pacific, to see that not only in one particular province but that in all of them necessary branches be built to complete their system?
Would it not be wiser for the Government, who wish to complete our transportation system, instead of acquiring new merchant ships when the number we own is already too great and when it is shown that these ships are absolutely useless, would it not be better to complete our railway system? Does not the country now know that the construction of the Transcontinental, for instance, was certainly justified by the fact that in going through these unknown regions of the northern provinces of Ontario and Quebec, it opened up to colonization a vast territory? The glory certainly is to the credit of our Canadian statesman, it is to the honour of Sir Wilfrid Laurier who foresaw the development of this beautiful region of Abitibi, where to the north of the Laurentides, is thrown open a domain almost as extensive as that of the St. Lawrence valley and where the sons of that old province have ventured in great numbers to open up important and prosperous centres. It would be advisable to complete this system of railways inasmuch as our finances will permit. Before spending millions in the shipbuilding enterprise it would be more appropriate for instance to connect Montreal with the Transcontinental by means of that projected road of a few years ago, by the "North Railway Company," and thus by this extension connect the Metropolis of Canada, the large city of Montreal with the Transcontinental by skirting the counties of Argenteuil and Labelle and through this vast region situated to the north of these counties. This is an enterprise which by its own merit commends itself to the Government. Since we have millions to spend for useless enterprises, I take it upon myself to draw the attention, for the are the most urgent. mB.Oydcvmome m


Mr. TURGEON:: I see the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Sir George Foster) looking at me. I am sure he thinks it strange that the persuasive appeal which he made a few moments ago to members on this side of the House, to allow the minister (Mr. Ballantyne) to report progress, after voting the amount under discussion, has	hqd	no effect.	If his appealcould affect	the	mind	and	heart of onemember on	this	side	of the House, heknows it is	the	mind	and	heart of the
member for Gloucester (Mr. Turgeon).
However, I deem it my duty on this occasion to express, as briefly as I possibly can, my views on the great question of the Merchant Marine of Canada, a question, the discussion of which I had left to my hon. friends from Nova Scotia . and other provinces who are more competent to discuss it with the authority derived from practical experience in the pursuit of their own business. The Minister of Trade and Commerce no doubt remembers that every session during the war I rose in this House and implored him and the Government of which he is a member to begin at once the construction of merchant vessels to help the Allies in carrying not only munitions but provisions to Great Britain in her stress, when it was taking every ton that a vessel could, carry to maintain the millions of soldiers who were fighting for democracy and for the salvation of Canada.
The time came when the United States felt that she had to join the Allies in the war, and she found herself pretty much in the position of Canada-without a navy able to transport the millions of soldiers which she was determined to send to help the Allies. During that period, I for one, and others on this side of the House, appealed to the Right Hon. the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and to the other members of the Government, to give help to Great Britain in the matter of transporting the American soldiers who were so badly needed to put an end to the struggle in which the Allies were engaged.
There was no attempt on the part of the Government to build a ship. I will not refer to the time of the naval debate in 1911, when we on this side of the House placed on the statutes of the country an Act for the construction of a naval service, which would have been so useful during the war, and so remunerative to Canada after the war, because we would have had those vessels ready for the transportation
of our commerce from this time forward. But my hon. friends on the other side remained silent at that time and did nothing at all. The press of the country could never persuade any member of the Government to undertake the construction of a vessel, either for the navy or the merchant marine. At last in 1917, when my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce came into the Government, he announced to this House that he had a naval programme ready to submit to us. War was still going on. I remember, when speaking on the Budget, that I congratulated him upon the project he had enunciated. But he had remained silent for three years, and they were only commencing to construct the navy at that time. But still, as I thought, it was time then to begin. But war ceased almost as soon as the Government commenced the construction of marine vessels. We asked them to halt, because we knew that Great Britain had all those vessels which she had used for the transportation of munitions and soldiers, not only from Canada but from the United" States, and there were more ships on the ocean than could possibly be used for business. They had commenced too late, but, late as it was, they were determined to go on. There was certainly no constructive or wise policy adopted in this matter-no policy that would be carried out by any business concern in Canada, or in any place the world over. They knew that freight had risen high-twelve hundred per cent from the pre-war rate up till that time. They knew that with the cessation of the war, and the cessation of the transport of munitions and soldiers, with an immense fleet at the disposal of the countries interested, those freight rates would necessarily come down as rapidly as they had risen during the war, and that, therefore, the new vessels they were building were bound to be a loss to the country. But no appeal could be effective upon the mind of my right hon. friend and his colleagues in the Council.
When I came into this Chamber about nine o'clock this morning, the hon. gentleman from St. James (Mr. Rinfret) was addressing the House,. He stated that they had been accused by the hon. members on the other side of the House of having had an understanding that they should continue this debate during the night, and stop the vote from being effective. In contradiction of this statement, I will tell my hon. friend that I left this House last night, contrary to mv habit, a few minutes before twelve.

thinking that, on a private members' day, [DOT] the Government had simply taken the vote merely to finish the day, and that in a few minutes my hon. colleagues would be following my example and going home. When I came here this .morning and heard that statement made, I desired to register a [DOT]denial of the statement that there was any such understanding. My hon. friend will give me credit for this-that had I known there was to be any such protracted sitting I would have been here all night, the same as the rest of my colleagues. When we appeal to the Government to stop the waste of money upon the building of ships which cannot be used, they tell us that they have a contract, and, having a contract, they had to carry on. I always thought, from my experience in business of the departments of government of the country for the last twenty-five years, that every contract the Government made with a firm or private individual contained a clause that the contract would be terminated on the Government giving notice within a certain time specified in the contract. No contract has ever been made by any Government of Canada without such a provision. They gave a contract to the Dominion Iron and Steel Company in Nova Scotia for 250,000 tons of plate, and, after they had received about 25 or 30 per cent, they stopped the contract and advised them they could use no more. They could have exercised the same privilege with the shipbuilders in the different shipyards of the country. But they were not always so timid when they wanted to cancel a contract or stop shipbuilding in this country. Great Britain has been building ships for a year or two in our shipyards in Canada through the Munitions Board. They had work going on all the time. They had been building ships which they thought they might need in the future. They were not so sensitive at that time about contracts. They practically told the Munitions Board to vacate the shipyards of Canada, and that they themselves would build these ships, instead of the Munitions Board which represented the Government of Great Britain. This 1 consider most criminal. If this had been done by the poor member from Gloucester, or Sir Wilfrid Laurier when he was at the head of the Government, and if he had said to the Government of Great Britain: " I will discontinue your work here and I will take your place," such action would have been condemned very strongly. It was certainly not only audacious, but it was against the friendly

intercourse between the Government of Great Britain and one of her Dominion under the British flag. Why not allow Great Britain to go on with the project if they desired to do so? When the war was over, Great Britain having so many ships that she did not need them all, could have sold to Canada any number of vessels which we might have required for that ocean traffic. But they have built those ships now, and we are told by the Government that fifteen of them are to do in the port of Halifax a certain traffic. I do not wish to mingle the question of railroads with this question of marine to-day, as I do not intend to occupy the attention of the committee very long. I do not say that we have too many railways. I always took the ground that if our railways are not paying what they should pay to-day, and do not give the service they should give, it is not because we have too many railways, but because we do not give to the Canadian railways the traffic Which is there for them, but which is diverted from Port Arthur-seventy per cent of it-every year to Buffalo and New York. And I say again in regard to the relations between the railways and the merchant marine, that all the import trade that is coming back from New York, Philadelphia and Boston comes also through those ports, and, therefore, our own marine is deprived of the ocean trade going and coming. My hon. friends on the other side have said that the Transcontinental was a useless expenditure, but I say that it was the most patriotic and beneficial expenditure in railroads that Canada ever made. I am sure that that view will be expressed by future historians, to the great shame of those who have opposed the building of this road.
I do most earnestly appeal to the Government to take this matter into further consideration and see whether they can determine upon a policy more in line with the interests of the people. Why do my hon. friends, in view of the enormous financial burdens of the country, insist upon proceeding with this ship-building programme? The minister has endeavoured to Show a surplus on operating account in connection with his Government ships, but I am afraid that this does not disclose the real condition, and that next year he will come to the House with an even more unsatisfactory result. Sir, wherever the Canadian may set foot upon his native land there he finds rich natural resources. Why, then, not take such steps as are necessary to make full use of this great Transcontinental

railway,-built to compete with railroads leading to the ports of New York; built to suit Canada's condition; built to carry the produce of the western farmer through Canadian ports to its destination across the sea; built to carry,a tonnage which no other railroad in America could possibly handle. Sir, all these considerations were had in mind by these who projected this great system. The road is so constructed that trains of from sixty to ninety cars can be hauled with a single engine, over a road-bed as smooth as the floor of this House. Only by developing to the full by every means at our disposal the traffic handled by these lines can we hope to get rid of the deficits which the railways of Canada have experienced during the last two or three years. I am not opposed to the management of railroads by the Government. When some people in despair cry out: Give back the Government-owned railroads to their former owners, or hand them over to a private concern, I say, let us do the best we can; let us develop these roads which have been constructed to make short our great distances and to make more direct and convenient the transport of our produce from the field to the point of export.
Mr. Speaker, my right hon. friend who leads the House may question my judgment, but he will not doubt my sincerity. I appeal to him in all earnestness, not as the member for Gloucester, but as one who is trying to reflect the opinion of the people of Canada generally, to take such steps as will prevent this wasteful expenditure. Let the Government do this in their own interests, if for no other reason, because if they reconsider their action the people will say: They have taken the right course; we will support them. If we proceed as we are doing we shall only have to struggle with new deficits year after year. We have to look forward to a deficit again next year and as long as that is the case why should we not stop the construction of useless vessels? I am appealing to the Government in the exercise of their duty- their duty, not to the Opposition but to the people of Canada-to stop this expenditure, and I still trust that my right hon. friend who now leads the House will consider what I say and will consent to report progress and in the meantime to consider the matter, and when we come back again tomorrow or next week he can present a programme upon which we on this side of the House, will perhaps be responsive to his appeal.


John Wesley Edwards: Mr. Chairman, I
would be the last person in this House to doubt the sincerity of my hon. friend for whom I have now, as I always have had, a very high esteem. But after listening to his remarks in reference to the Transcontinental project, I trust he will not think I am using harsh or disrespectful language if I say I^have certain doubts as to his judgment. I agree with the hon. gentleman that we have too many railroads in this country; that is a fact which has been pretty well impressed upon us from one end of Canada to the other, about which, I think, there is perhaps no real difference of opinion. But it just strikes me that it will be well if hon. gentlemen who sit on the other side of the House would look over the pages of the history, going back a few years, and measure the extent of their responsibility for the fact that Canada has too many railroads to-day. It might be well if they, in all fairness, in considering the question, should estimate what portion or parts of the Government railways of Canada are most responsible for the $70,000,000 deficit which we have to-day and, if they will seriously and honestly give consideration to that question they will admit the responsibility for such a huge deficit is very largely, I might say, almost entirely theirs.
But, sir, I have not risen for the purpose of discussing the railway situation, I want to say a very few words in regard to this particular matter which is covered by the vote before u$. Might I be permitted to call attention, very briefly, to one or two facts:	The original shipbuilding programme, of which this is a continuation and a part, was launched on April 4, 1918, at which time $20,000,000, I believe, was asked for and voted. I think I am right in saying that the shipbuilding policy was pretty generally accepted by both sides of the House at that time, and that there was no objection to voting the $20,000,000. If I am right in that statement, then those who consented to the shipbuilding policy inaugurated in 1918; who gave their consent and raised no objection to the vote must, in all fairness, assume their fair share of responsibility for the inauguration of the policy and for the voting, at least, of that $20,000,000. We proceed next to the following year. Then, I think, some $30,000,000 was asked for in May, 1919. On that occasion, I believe the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Lemieux), or as he was referred to the other night, seeing that he sits for the constituency of Maisonneuve also, the hon.

member for Graspy-commended the Government very strongly for its shipbuilding policy, for keeping the wheels of industry going in this country. Now that was in May, 1919, and I think I am right in stating that the distinguished member for Marquette, the leader of the progressive party, was in May, 1919', a member of the Government and therefore-


Francis N. McCrea: That is perhaps the
reason he left, he did not agree with them.


John Wesley Edwards: That is perhaps so,
no doubt the hon. gentleman can state the reasons why he left, but I am stating the fact; and I do not think my hon. friend will question the reasonableness of my statement, when I say that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Crerar) cannot reasonably get away from his responsibility in voting that money and in the endorsation of that policy. In regard to those hon. gentlemen sitting around him now, and who occupied seats on this side of the House at that time, and who at that time voted the same way that hon. member voted, they are in the same position, and cannot escape their full share of responsibility for the second vote of $30,000,000 and for their endorsation of the shipbuilding policy. Now, that places the responsibility for a total of $50,000,000. I come now to last session when I believe $20,000,000 was asked for and was voted, and with regard to that vote I believe that some hon. gentleman who gave their support to the shipbuilding programme when it was inaugurated in 1918 and again gave their support to that programme when the $30,000,000 was voted in 1919, did not give their support. In all fairness I want to state that fact. But the item was voted. This Parliament, rightly or wrongly, did vote $20,000,000 last year. Now let us see how much it is proposed to add to that amount. True, a vote of $8,000,000 is asked for by this item. But I ask hon. gentlemen in all fairness to consider this fact, that of the $20,000,000 that, rightly or wrongly, was voted last session, only $15,334,000 was actually expended, so that of the $8,000,000 which is asked for now, $4,664,000 is a revote of money which was voted by Parliament last year, and in reality the further money which this Parliament is asked to vote now is $3,334,000. That completes the shipbuilding programme.
Let me go back to the question of responsibility for the building of the ships.
I say that there are hon. gentlemen sitting across from me who gave their support not only to the shipbuilding pro-[Mr. Edwards.}
gramme in 1918-that was unanimously approved-but who gave their support to the shipbuilding policy in 1919 and to the vote of the $30,000,000, and many of them took a less hostile attitude, at all events, last session in regard to the $20,000,000 than they are taking at the present time. I want to call attention to this further fact The $30,000,000 voed in 1919 was voted at a time when the hon. member for Marquette was a member of the Government, and when most of the hon. gentlemen sitting across the floor to my immediate right were sitting on this side of the House and giving their support to the Government, and therefore supporting that $30,000,000 vote. I claim that, whatever that vote enabled the Government to do in the way of building ships or carrying out their programme, any man in this House who voted for that $30,000,000 must share responsibility for the work that the Government did and that they were enabled to do because that money was voted. That vote of May, 1919, carried the programme through not only to the end of 1919, but to the end of the fiscal year, that is to March 31, 1920. I claim, therefore, that hon. gentlemen like my hon. friend for Marquette, who was in the House and a member of the Government when this money was voted, must share responsibility for whatever work was carried on up to the end of that fiscal year in so far as shipbuilding was concerned. There were not any new contracts let for vessels after December, 1919. Therefore, if I am wrong in backing the Government up in this programme, it appears to me that certain hon. gentlemen opposite who have expressed their opposition to this programme are just as far wrong as I was wrong. They gave their adherence to the policy of the building of ships just as much and as far as I did. And, after December, 1919, no further contracts were entered into, and the contracts entered into in December, 1919, would not have been entered into if this House had not consented to the vote of $30,000,000, to which vote hon. gentlemen opposite gave their approval just as much as I did.


Mr. CRERAR:: My understanding is that contracts were entered into as late as May, 1920.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There have been no contracts entered into since 1919.


John Wesley Edwards: That was my understanding when I made the statement. I will concede at once that if the hon. member for Marquette or any other hon. gentle-

man who sat on this side of the House at that time and gave his approval to the vote of $30,000,000 can show that contracts were entered into after the expiration of that fiscal year, that is, after the 1st of April, 1920, he is absolved from all responsibility in that regard; but in so far as anything was done by this Government on their shipbuilding programme in the year 1919, it was only done, and could only be done, because this Parliament voted $30,000,000 for that purpose. In voting that $30,000,000 for that purpose we told the Government to go ahead with their shipbuilding programme and enter into contracts.
What other conclusion could you come to? No contracts were entered into after December, 1919. Therefore, if I was wrong in regard to the vote that enabled and encouraged the Government to proceed with their shipbuilding programme, some hon. gentlemen who are trying to get out from under now were just as far wrong as I was. It is all right for some of these hon. gentlemen to bring this matter up now in the way they have done, for the purpose of achieving what is patent to everybody here. Since this matter has come up, it has afforded an opportunity to some hon. gentlemen to make speeches and deliver orations, in order to try and impress their constituents with the fact that they are great for economy; that is the whole purpose. Of course, the opportunity afforded by this vote has been followed up by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark) to present, as usual, some more of his free trade fallacies, of which he has always a stock on hand. It has given him that opportunity, of whicn he avails himself no matter what item comes up for discussion. It has given some other hon. gentlemen the opportunity to say " Oh yes, we agreed to your shipbuilding programme in 1918, but the war was on then, and we did so as a war measure." Mr. Chairman, I will freely accept that as a reason from an hon. member like my hon. friend from Gloucester (Mr. Tur-geon), but should I accept it as a reason from the hon. member from Lunenburg (Mr. Duff), for instance? I cannot accept such a reason from any hon. member who assumed the attitude which that hon. member did at a time when our soldiers were asking for reinforcements. He did what he could to prevent them from getting there. That hon. gentleman had a use for his ships at that time, and it was not in the interests of the Allies, but to take men away out to sea so that they could not
report for service. So, when my hon. friend states as a reason why he supported the policy of 1918 that it was a war measure, I say that he has got to bring up another story to convince me.
I do not think the hon. gentleman's record is such as to substantiate any such assertion on his part. Now, the House sat all night debating this question, and I think we may look at it for a moment.


John Archibald Campbell: Are you in a position to say whether any of those contracts for ships could have been cancelled?


John Wesley Edwards: Most frankly, I am not in a position to say; the Minister of Marine must answer that question.


John Archibald Campbell: Certain railway contracts have been cancelled, and I do not see any reason why the same procedure could not have been taken in regard to the ships.


John Wesley Edwards: I am not in a position to give my hon. friend an answer. Speaking from my own personal knowledge, I know that in the city of Kingston, where there is a small shipbuilding plant, the Collingwood Company, there was an anxious request the winter before last for a contract for a new vessel. I know also that in December, 1919, out in Vancouver they pleaded with the Government very strenuously for one or two orders to relieve the unemployment situation, because the soldiers were coming back in great numbers and there was considerable unrest. Unemployment was staring the people in the face in various parts of the country, and something had to be done. To what extent the Government was influenced, in giving orders for ships, by conditions that then arose and the urgent appeals that were made, I can frankly say I am not in a position to state. But so far as I am concerned, I am willing to take my share of responsibility for voting this additional $3,300,000, which is really all that we are asked to vote, to complete a shipbuilding programme which was in the first place unanimously agreed to. The first vote of $20,000,000 passed without objection; the second vote of $30,000,000 passed, if not without objection, at least with compliments from certain prominent gentlemen opposite; and as regards this final amount, I for one am willing to assume my share of responsibility. What does it amount to after all?


John Archibald Campbell: Is there any , more reason why this programme should be com-

pleted than there is why other programmes in regard to other national projects should be carried out?


John Wesley Edwards: Yes, I think there is. I do not blame my hon. friend for keeping constantly in mind the building of the Hudson Bay Railway.


John Archibald Campbell: I did not mention it.


John Wesley Edwards: Well, I do not profess to be a mind reader, but I will bet a horse to a hen that I am not very far wrong. If I represented the constituency represented by my hon. friend, I think that probably .1 should have done what he did the other day. I would have made a speech in the House which I could send to my constituents to show them that I was putting up a vigorous fight on their behalf for the building of this railway. Now, that is playing the game, and I have no objection at all to that course. But I do think, without going into the details, that some reasons might be advanced for carrying out contracts entered into in the shipping programme of the Government, while reasons equally cogent could be given for not completing the Hudson Bay Railway at this juncture. I may say, however, speaking for myself, I hope the day is not very far distant when the line in which my hon. friend is deeply interested will be completed. I sincerely hope that.


John Archibald Campbell: But you will not vote for it.


John Wesley Edwards: Not this year; if it comes up this year I will not vote for it.
Mr. -CAMPBELL: And I will not vote for this item this year.


John Wesley Edwards: I do not think you will, and that brings me exactly to the point I was coming to. My hon. friend will give reasons, as others did last night and yesterday afternoon, why he will not support this proposal. That is within the rights of hon. members. But having done that, what is the use of taking up further time? The Government must assume responsibility for this vote, and eventually we will put it through. The hon. gentleman opposite, having placed their views before the country and stated their opposition to this vote, having maintained that opposition throughout the whole night, must be satisfied that the country will be fully aware of their attitude towards this subject.	That
being the case, what is the sense of spending further time discussing the 
question? If there are any hon. gentlemen opposite who have not put themselves on record as being opposed to it, for Heaven's sake let them get up and express themselves. But having done that, what more is there for them to do? For my part, I am prepared, for reasons I have given, to support the Government in this matter; and hon. gentlemen opposite are equally prepared, for reasons they have advanced -I will not enter on the question of their sincerity-to vote against the item. Very well, having put themselves on record, they should see the futlity of further opposition. That is all I desire to say now. I do object to certain hon. gentlemen trying to lay the blame, if blame there is, on the Government for its shipbuilding policy that received their support in its initial stages, when they voted the great bulk of the money that has so far been expended on this programme.


Mr. PEDLOW:: The members of this House generally, and more particularly the members of the Opposition, are extremely grateful to my hon. friend (Mr. Edwards) for having accorded them the privilege of expressing their views on this subject. I trust, however, he will be good enough to concede that the members of all sections of the Opposition are aware of this privilege, and are prepared to exercise their rights on this question. The fact that they have stood here in the front line trenches, many of them all night, in defence of their views on the policy of the Government, shows that they not only know their privileges, but are ready to assert them. The member for Frontenac has taken to task very seriously the member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff), Who precipitated this discussion. He has referred to the war record of that hon. member, and while I cannot see that that has anything whatever to do with the discussion now in progress, I think that the war record of the member for Lunenburg will compare favourably indeed with that of the hon. gentleman.


Francis N. McCrea: A good deal better.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: My hon. friend has said that the Opposition did not object to this vote ,last year. If the hon. member will read " Hansard " covering the Estimates when that vote was under consideration last year, he will find that many of the members, including the member for Lunenburg, raised strenuous objection to that vote.


John Wesley Edwards: I would remind my
hon. friend that I did not say anything of the kind.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: If I have not understood the hon. member for Frontenac, I am sorry; but I am still of the opinion that that was the impression left on the House. We are not here to-day to wave the flag.
I think that the members on this side of the House can claim equal honour with the members on the Government side in regard to war work and war activities, and there is no need for any references of that kind. That sort of thing is ancient history, and has nothing to do with the subject we are dealing with to-day.
Some hon. members on this side of the House did in 1918, 1919, and even in 1920, support this shipbuilding proposition; but it is quite evident that they have a seen the error of their way in that regard, in which respect they differ from the members on the Government side of the House.
The hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) claims that in view of the fact that this project was favoured at one time, and in spite of the admitted fact that it is a losing game, we should continue spending $192 per ton in building ships that are worth only $35 to $42 per ton today. Is that good business? I ask you Mr. Chairman, I ask the Minister of Railways whether this is good business, and I would like the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to get up and say now, if he will, that it is good business. It is suggested that as the Government have entered into the contract, it is sacred matter; but it is a well known fact that contracts which were entered into during the war by the Government, by manufacturers, by importers, and by business men the world over, are not now regarded in that sacred light. In many cases those contracts were cancelled, and a readjustment was made on a fair basis. I know of many instances in which manufacturers and importers were allowed that privilege and where an adjustment was made satisfactory to both parties to the transaction. The Government, during the period that has ensued since the Armistice was signed, have exercised that right, and have cancelled munition contracts, adjusting the matter satisfactorily with the parties concerned. Why not exercise the same right in regard to building vessels that are not needed, vessels that would simply lie idle alongside the 16 other vessels that are now lying idle in the harbour of Halifax? The Government have exercised their right to cancel war contracts for textile materials, and I know that in these instances they have paid bonuses amounting to three-quarters of a million dollars, for the cancellation of those contracts. I think it was good business on the part of the Government to make an adjustment of that kind.
I was delighted to see the Minister of Trade and Commerce come in so bright and fresh this morning after his night's rest when others had been labouring all night and had, as he says, produced nothing. He immediately took hold of the situation and suggested that we pass the item without further discussion. It was quite evident to him that the Committee had reached a stage where it was impossible to make progress without the application of the rules of the House. He could gather from the temper of the Opposition and from the tenor of their remarks that we were determined that this item, $8,330,000, shall not pass unless the Government take the only course open to them and apply the closure. I am very much of the same opinion as the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark) in regard to that matter. I detest the word " closure," but as he points out it is a method that has been adopted by all the governments of the civilized world. If it is clear-and I am sure it must be clear to the Government-that this Opposition is determined that this item shall not pass unless we are forced to pass it by the only means in the hands of the Government, they should in all reason and in all decency listen to the appeal made by the hon. member for St. James (Mr. Rinfret) and repeated by the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards), the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark), the hon. member for Gloucester (Mr. Turgeon), the hon. member for Sherbrooke (Mr. McCrea), and others. This item is only one installment of the amount required by the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries.
I have been figuring while this discussion has been going on, that there is a balance of 114,470 tonnage still to be constructed, and at $192 per ton this will cost the sum of $22,978,240. If this item of $8,000,000 is passed for the purpose of doing this work, it is only an instalment on the amount required to complete the work-about one-third of the amount actually needed. So that we are committing ourselves to a proposition that is really like a will-o-the-wisp. We are getting nowhere. It would have been better if the Minister of Marine had

exercised the privilege granted in all contracts entered into during the war, and have cancelled the contracts for the ships, the construction of which had not been commenced. That would have been the sensible course. The attitude of the minister is worse than nonsense. It is unbusinesslike to go on spending $192 for $35 worth of service. The hon. member for Sherbrooke says it is worse than nonsense-it is foolishness. I go further and say it is worse than lunacy. No sane business man would adopt such a course in his own affairs. The Government can only force this item through by closure, and I would ask them to consider the possibility, the advisability and the desirability of cancelling the contracts, in order to see if a reasonable adjustment cannot be made with-the firms who have these contracts in hand. Comparing the result of the railway operations in the past year, with the operations of the Government Merchant Marine, it seems to me that the Minister of Railways and Canals and the Minister of Marine and Fisheries have been running a race with each other to see which would pile up the biggest deficit. The Minister of Railways presents the result of the operation of the railways during the past year and shows a deficit of some $70,000,000, and he says " There it is, boys, go to it; what will you do with it?" The Minister of Marine and Fisheries does not come up quite to that point, but, according to the estimate made by a man experienced in shipping, the hon. member for Lunenburg, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries piles up a loss on the year's operation of not less than $59,000,000. That statement has been made on the floor of the House and I have not heard it successfully contradicted. The figures submitted by the hon. member for Lunenburg are very convincing, and no one could seriously dispute them. The Minister of Trade and Commerce made the assertion, or possibly the guess, that no new idea had been advanced during the whole night's discussion and nothing had been achieved, and intimated that the Opposition were simply marking time. As a member of the Opposition, I am willing to continue marking time until we obtain satisfactory information from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and we have been asking for information all night. There is one item here which I think cannot be explained by the Minister of Finance. I refer to the discrepancy $148,175.86-I am now quoting the figures from the minister's own statement, page 1334 of Unrevised " Hansard." I

find under operating account, 1920, an item deducted for depreciation of $067,665.46. In a subsequent statement also presented to the House by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries I find an item for depreciation the total of which is given $815,842.32. That is an item transferred in the balance sheet by the minister submitting the annual net result for the year. That shows a discrepancy of $148,175.86, between the two diiferent accounts. We should have an explanation of this discrepancy. It is a large amount to the ordinary citizen, but may seem only trifling here. I think it is large enough to warrant the Opposition in holding up the item until we receive a satisfactory explanation of it. We have been asking all night about the earnings of the different ships, and we have been told by the hon. member for Lunenburg that a great many of these vessels have been parading up and down the coast of North America with mud ballast. It would have been better if these vessels had been left in Halifax harbour or some other harbour. We were told that these were built for the purpose of assisting the export trade of Canada, but these vessels have been engaged in coast trade in the Mediterranean sea, taking cargoes from one point in the Mediterranean to some point in Europe. In view of the fact that the Government have to go out to all ports of the world to look for trade to keep these vessels going, it seems to me it is not reasonable that they should continue building vessels presumably to help the trade of Canada, and send them out	to foreign ports to be used
in this way. All this is being accomplished at the expense of the taxpayers of this country. The Minister of Railways some time ago volunteered the information, when asked the question, that one of these vessels was being used in the trade between Canada and South Africa, he was asked what class of merchandise was brought by that vessel from South Africa to Canada, and he was entirely ignorant as to the commodity handled by vessels on that route. We would like to know what proportion of the $8,000,000 is going to be used in overhauling the vessels laid up in Halifax harbour. I understand that most of these vessels have not been in use for more than two years. It is preposterous that a vessel from which the first coat of paint is hardly worn should have to be laid up for repairs.
I have urged the reasonableness of my request that these contracts be cancelled. The Government saw fit to cancel various

contracts for munitions, textiles, and steel plates; the railway companies, I understand, have cancelled large contracts let during the war and the period of reconstruction. The Government having exercised its right to cancel many other contracts since the termination of the war, I appeal to them to consider seriously the advisability of cancelling the contracts for the remainder of the ships under construction, and thus save an enormous amount to the taxpayers of Canada. I wish to voice my opposition to the continuance of these contracts. These contracts are being carried on without any probability of effecting good objects so far as the public are concerned. A few individual contractors and labourers might be benefited by their continuance, but the people generally would be penalized. It would be in the interests of the country in the long run if some compromise between the contractors and the Government was arrived at with a view to the cancellation of these contracts. Possibly the vessels actually under construction might be completed and disposed of, but we should be recreant in our duty if we permitted the Government, without protesting on our part, their right to go ahead with the building of vessels for use in Canadian trade. I have much pleasure in associating my protest with that of other hon. members on this side-and I am glad that all hon. members sitting on this side of the House, including those to my extreme left, are included in this oppositiqn. The Government may rest assured that this vote will not be carried without the adoption of the strongest measures that it is in their power to employ.
Mr. ROCH LANCTOT (Laprairie and Napierville). (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister of Marine will not complain that I am making any obstruction regarding this amount of eight millions, as this is the first time that I rise to discuss this mercantile marine scheme launched by the Government some three years ago. I want to know why we should persist in this insane policy, why we should spend more and more millions when past experience proves that all this Government's undertakings have caused some awful losses to the people of this country? I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, that we have to deal with a most unlucky Government. They have taken over most of the railways in this country and thus bringing about heavy deficits. They have undertaken shipbuilding, then the cost of construction fell about 80 per 100 and the Government is still paying the same price, that is $192 a ton, though the. price should not be more than $40 or $45. I want to know why the minister did give such long term contracts when he could have followed the exemple of other countries and cancelled those contracts whenever there occurred a change in prices, or else, grant contracts from year to year, so as not to pay in 1920 and 1921 prices which are three times what they were when the contracts were given.
Now, we are charged with having coun-. tenanced this mercantile marine policy. So far as I am concerned, Mr. Chairman, I may say that I never did countenance any undertaking of this Government. If some of my hon. friends from this side of the House saw fit to aid the Minister of Marine in this shipbuilding policy, that is their business and I have nothing to do with it. However, I was ef opinion at that time that they were mistaken in helping out this Government and you will admit with me, Mr. Chairman, that I never supported the Government in anything they did since 1914 and, particularly since 1917 till this day, and that I do not propose to do so in future.
This shipbuilding policy, if I understand what has been said in this House within the last few days and especially by the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff), will probably cost the country as much as our national railways. Not only will the Government pay the construction of these ships four times what it is worth, but they will also be called upon to pay a handsome amount to the Dominion Steel people for their cancelled contract. Is it not a fact, Mr. Chairman, that in the United States such cases had been provided for and that the Government had a right to cancel a contract at any time? But, in this country, our Government, always generous towards the big corporations, and loath to displease them, have put no such clause in our contracts and we are now at the mercy of the Dominion Steel, who, after the elections or even before, will send an account which Jean Baptiste will have to settle. I wonder if we merchants, we farmers, could not [DOT] strike such bargains as those made by the Minister of Marine? I wonder if a Western farmer could have, three years ago, sold his wheat for three years to come at $3 a bushel, and kept up this price for three years?
I also wonder if I could have sold my hay, three years ago, for $30 a ton and

insist on this price being paid for three years to come? Under such conditions I do not think that any serious-minded man would want to do business with me or with the Western farmer, but our Government, though posing as a serious Government, make contracts with shipbuilders for two or three years, always at the same price and even when those prices fall to $40 or $45 they must still pay $192.
I often hear the railway question discussed in this House. True it constitutes a white elephant on the hands of our people, but I am always surprised to hear the hon. members on the Government side. They look as if they wanted the people to believe that the Liberal party is responsible for this state of affairs. If I remember correctly, the Conservatives are in power since 1911, and before 1911 the Government of the day had given the Canadian Northern 35 millions to build their road from Prince Arthur to Montreal, but this building was not carried through till after the hon. gentlemen opposite came into power. Thus, they had a perfect right, once the elections were over, to stop this undertaking and take over the road from Mackenzie & Mann as they have done some years latter, but too late. If they had been business men they should have dispossessed Mackenzie & Mann after the 1911 elections, they should have taken over all the western branch lines so as to provide feeders for the National Transcontinental.
Moreover they had completed the Transcontinental as projected under the administration of Sir Wilfrid Laurier and as stipulated under the contract with the Grand Trunk, we would have had the finest railway of the country and we would now have had two 'transcontinentals to maintain instead of three. The Government now say that they made no greater mistake than we have. They carried on the construction of the Canadian Northern railway as far as Vancouver on the Pacific coast, after the year 1911. Why? To help the McBride policy which had it been allowed to prevail would have dragged the province of British Columbia into bankruptcy. I ask you, is it their work or ours? I say it is the doings of this Government, since 1911.
I have a certain knowledge of this railway policy. It is always the same thing. Mackenzie and Mann having obtained, in 1911, $35,000,000 from the Liberal government, must have contributed to the Conservative party's funds, three or four million dollars to carry the elections of 1911. They now put the plea that we did not protest against 
the merchant marine. Did the Conservatives protest, in 1911, against the grant of $35,000,000 to Mackenzie and Mann? They did not cast their vote against this railway policy because they had the certainty of getting a good share of those $35,000,000 in order to defeat Laurier. "Anything to beat Laurier." Let them not throw the stone, because they are the most open to criticism.
This disastrous policy must change. On this subject I wish to remark that I entirely approve of the principle adopted by my hon. friends of the Agrarian party, that each side will have to look to the re-election of its own candidates. Mr. Chairman, if to-day we have to put up with such enormous debts, the fault can be found in our election, it is due to election organization, to the buying up wholesale of newspapers to favour a party's politics, because for these things money is needed and who are those who put it up. They are the magnates, the railway companies, the banks and the large manufacturers. Have you any doubt that these gentlemen in return expect to retrieve their losses, as the saying goes? This is what ruins a country. We should act with Parliament as is done with a municipal council of a parish when it makes a mistake with regard to public works within its limits. Those interested would not allow the cost of such work to be 400 per cent higher than if it was done by a contractor at the cost price of the market. If however such a thing should happen, and if a council paid exorbitant prices, those interested could have recourse to a court of justice and would certainly be upheld in their contentions, for the municipal councils can be called upon to give an account of their act before the courts and be convicted as the case may be; but this House is the highest court of justice in this country, there is no higher tribunal and that allows it to adopt the most senseless and the most expensive enterprises which the people have to pay.
When one speaks in this House, no matter on what subject, it always ends on war topics. My hon. friend from Frontenac cannot to-day say one word on the merchant marine without bringing in the war, without mentioning what such and such a member has done and what he has not done. Well, Mr. Chairman, for my part, I have done what I should have done, and I fear no reproach, but I would like to see things cease and that the House betakes itself to business. Mr. Chairman, you have often heard that Sir Wilfrid Laurier's

Transcontinental as it is called, was to cost but $13,000,000, and often have I noticed when these figures of $13,000,000 were mentioned, they were greeted with prolonged applause on the Government side. The right hon. member from King's (Sir Robert Borden) has many times mentioned to us those figures, $13,000,000 to construct 1,800 miles of railway! I never took it for granted that the ex-Prime Minister was serious when he used to throw this bomb of $13,000,000 for an 1,800 mile railway. I never paid much attention to it and I also noticed, up to now, my hon. friends on this side of the House never passed any remarks about it. I think the proper time has come for me to take up this assertion. If I am not mistaken, the Laurier government who conceived this transcontinental project, declared that the railway after completion, would be handed over to the Grand Trunk who would undertake the operation of it for seven years without paying any interest to the Government which would mean to the country an expenditure of $15,000,000 of unpaid interest. At the expiration of the seven years, the Government was to rent the railway to the Grand Trunk for forty-nine years, the latter paying an annual interest of three per cent on the total cost of the road. That is what I understood. If the ex-Premier wishes to visit my county and there declare before my constituents that the transcontinental built by Sir Wilfrid Laurier was to only cost $13,000,000, I am certain that my electors would not take him seriously. It is simply a political bluff. I consider myself a practical man, I know the value of a dollar, I have laboured and handled the plough, I am not always an easy mark for the politician's bluff. I would like to see a change in this state of things; that business be taken up seriously in this House. Is. it possible for a Government like the present one to administer railways and a merchant marine? Mr. Chairman, I say it is not, because I know but too well the members of the Government. No returns can be expected from what they do. First, I give them no credit for ability unless it is that of furthering their aims through politics. These gentlemen are directors or are shareholders in large companies and they have more at heart the companies' interests than those of the public. So far I have not seen this Government do anything for the welfare of the country. What is however, evident to me, is that they have not followed our example, for the Liberal party after having held power for fifteen 124
years, had to retire as poor as it was in; 1896; in contrast to the Liberal party, which was always opposed to the nationalization of public utilities, the present Government thus reasoned: we shall take possession of the whole public service; not only shall we have control of the civil employees, but we shall have all the employees of the state-owned railways and of our merchant marine. In this way we shall control the country, cost what it may, we shall succeed nevertheless. I foresee that it will place a great number of electors at their beckoning, but on the other hand, I believe, that the latter will not all vote for them and besides there is the people who pay for these ruinous enterprises, who have an inkling of what transpires behind the curtains and who will dismiss them at the next general elections. I do not wish to ramble away from the question. Why this great hurry to vote $8,000,000 for the merchant marine? We cannot afford it this year; then why not place that amount on next year's estimates? The hon. member for Nelson (Mr. Campbell) complained only yesterday of the Hudson Bay Railway for which $21,000,000 have been spent. I believe it is more important to complete that railway, the cost of which has been more than reimbursed by the sale of lands which skirt this road, than to continue the building of ships when we have not sufficient freight for the ships we already own, not mentioning the enormous deficit we are accumulating. If it is wise, in order to economise, to delay the construction of the Hudson Bay Railway for one, two or three years, how much wiser would it not be for the Minister of Marine to postpone his own project to next year or later if need be. He would simply have to complete the ships already in building, not to start any others and leave things as they are. For as the hon. member for Sherbrooke (Mr. McCrea) remarked the ocean freight rates will fall in the proportion of 90 per cent. I have some experience of what took place before the war. I was an exporter of hay to Europe and pre-war times we could export hay through the port of Montreal tc Liverpool from the opening of navigation up to July at a price of 12 shillings and at times for 15 to 17^ shillings to Glasgow. You are well aware that for the last few years we could not export a ton of hay to England for less than $20 and $30 a ton.
Now, if the Minister of Marine has been somewhat encouraged by the fact that the number of ships built in 1919, were re-



munerative, he cannot pin his faith to the belief that the rates will be maintained at those high levels, because all the countries of the world have now larger merchant fleets than previous to the war and taking into consideration that the European countries are ruined, and buy very little, there exists very little water transportation. He stated last year that he could have sold his ships, at a profit. I am afraid that he has lost the occasion of reimbursing the people of this country, the money invested in that enterprise. Still, it was the advice that was given to him by many members of this side of the House, people of great experience, such as my hon. friend of Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) and Lunenburg (Mr. Duff), who knew better than the Minister of Marine and better than myself what ought to be done and the things that relate to the merchant marine. It is not perhaps too late: it is still better, when the market conditions are unsteady to sell at once and not to put off. When a man has netted 75 or 80 per cent, he sleeps in peace, whereas when he keeps his stock, he gets sick. I am surprised that the hon. minister is not ill on account of the appalling cost of his merchant marine. As a matter of fact, it is not he who pays, but the country, and so he may sleep quietly. Many hon. members on this side of the House know more about that matter than myself, and I trust they will continue the discussion, but I may refer to it again this afternoon should it be necessary.


Mr. POWER:: In reading over the Hansard of March 29, 1921, page 1329, I find there the most interesting statement of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries:
When we are in Committee of Supply I will, to the very best of my ability, and with the greatest pleasure, give the fullest information to hon. members regarding the operations of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine.
Taking the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to be a man of his word I should like to ask him a number of questions. I am sorry he is not in the House, but if the hon. gentleman who is now leading the House can tell me whether he will be in a position to answer them, I will put them to him. Will the hon. gentleman who leads the House tell me whether he is in a position to answer?


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: I am afraid I am not a mind reader. I have not heard what the hon. member wishes to be answered.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: On page 1331 of unrevised Hansard, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries gives a list of the vessels which compose the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, and which when built will complete the programme of the Government. I am glad to see the excellent deputy minister of Marine and Fisheries enter the House. I assure him that it is with great pleasure that a large number of the members of this House and the people generally heard that he had returned to the department which he had graced with his presence for a long time. We, and I imagine the business people of this country, are somewhat at a loss to know how the Department of Marine and Fisheries could be carried on in his absence. With the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) we all agree that he has had large experience in matters connected with the department.
I am glad to see the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Ballantyne) also in his seat again. I was just pointing out that in his statement it is set forth that 114,470 tons have yet to be completed. At $190 per ton this would amount to twenty odd million dollars. We are now being called upon to vote $8,000,000. Would the minister be kind enough to tell me whether this is the only instalment, or whether we may expect to vote other items later?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am sorry that the hon. member for Quebec South was not present last evening as he would have heard this question answered. But I have no objection to answering it again. The vote we are asking for now, $4,000,000, is a re-vote for last year, and is to complete the Government's shipbuilding programme. All the ships are so far advanced that by the end of the month of June, and not later than the month of July, all the ships will be finished. Possibly, it may be some little time before I have the honour to ask hon. members to vote money again, but you never can tell.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Really then, we have only $3,000,000 of a new vote.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Over how many ships is this $3,000,000 to be spread?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Sixteen.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Would the hon. minister be kind enough to give me the names of the ships? I hope they will be christened with proper names. If as my hon. friend the member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff)

has pointed out, the Government are entering into the spirit trade, I hope the ships will be properly named. I would suggest to the minister that he enter into a conference with his friends from Ontario, who are disturbing the electorate of Ontario with the presence of " Pussyfoot " Johnson and others, to have proper names attached to those ships, so that this country and other countries will know the kind of business that this Government has entered upon. I would like to know the names of those ships and the places where they are being built. It is important to know that. It has already been pointed out that when large public undertakings are being carried on in any constituency, it is extremely difficult for a member to ask for a public accounting. Such being the case, it would be well to know in what constituencies these ships are being constructed. I imagine that one is being constructed in a constituency close to my own, but I am prepared to oppose the vote in spite of that.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have not got one called the " Canadian Power," but if I had thought of it sooner, there would have been.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: It would be a mighty
good ship.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The steamers are the Traveller, the Cruiser, the Constructor, the Reefer, the Thresher, the Pathfinder, the Leader, the Logger, the Skirmisher, the Coaster, the Challenger, the Harvester, and the Transporter. The Traveller is being built at the Harbour Marine Works, Victoria, and the Cruiser and Constructor at Halifax. On the Cruiser and the Constructor a little over a million dollars each has been spent, and on the Traveller about a million and a half.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: How much more remains to be spent on the Traveller?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not know.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Surely you are in a position to tell us what you expect to pay for these boats.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The contract price on the Traveller was $1,673,000. We expect to have the Cruiser and the Constructor finished in July.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: It might not interest members of this House, but it would interest business men engaged in shipping to know how the Government's programme is being carried out. It would be well for us to
take our loss generally on the whole marine and let it sell for what it can. If we stopped building now, what would be our loss approximately, as compared with the loss we should sustain if we completed the boats and sold them below cost? I do not ask these questions in order to annoy the minister; nothing is further from my thoughts. How much more remains to be expended?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We will find out and let you know during the next hour.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: What about the next boat?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: If you want full information regarding the minor details of every boat I shall have to send to the office and get it. You want to know exactly how far advanced these boats are, how many more plates are to go on, what decks, and everything like that?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: It might be interesting.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: And all about the piping, and so forth. We will try to get it for you.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: And particularly the amount which is still to be expended on each. The minister can give that now.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: [DOT] I have not got it.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Give me the contract price for each ship, and approximately how much has been expended on each.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I cannot tell you that, but I will get all the information I can, down to the smallest screw, if you will give me time.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I am only too glad to give you time. The members on this side want complete information in order to form a reasonable judgment on the whole question. I am sure that if we had full information some of us who are prejudiced against the scheme might become staunch supporters of it. I at present have a prejudice against the minister's policy but if I got all the information I require that prejudice might be removed. I do not believe in government control of ships or railways, or, for that matter, of anything else-not that I have no confidence in hon. gentlemen opposite, but I have no confidence in tne operation of public utilities and even if we were sitting opposite I should hold the same view. I do not know that the minister attaches very much value to the conversion of a new recruit, but if he does I would be only toe glad to be converted to his view, and cal.

his attention to the old saying of the joy in Heaven over the conversion of one sinner. It is Heaven to be in the minister's place just at the present moment, but there-might be joy in that portion of the Chamber if he could obtain one or more converts. I would like to ask the minister whether he has taken seriously into consideration the suggestion which was made in the House by the Minister of Railways last week, that we should take these boats and place them on the inland coasting trade and use them for carrying coal from the Sydneys to Montreal. Have representations been made to him with respect to this, and by whom?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not only have representations been made, but the company have decided to put those vessels on the coal trade. A large number of them are in Halifax just now, having a certain amount of overhaul, and then they are going to be put on the route.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Is that what the sixteen vessels are doing?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The number has varied. I would not want to make a guess, but I will wire and find out.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: How many boats does the minister intend to place on the route?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is not arranged by the minister: it is done by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: How does the minister know there was such an intention?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Because I was told so by the management.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Is the minister given all the information?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Oh, certainly.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Has he anything to do with influencing the decision?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not at all.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Is the management convinced this will be a paying route?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not know what the management's views are.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: If not, why does he think the management is going to run the boats from Halifax?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That is the arrangement we have with them.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: That is the arrangement the minister has with the management?
fMr Power]


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is very old news to my hon. friend, that the management of the merchant marine is entirely free from Government interference, and that Mr. Hanna, and his experienced steamship men, manage the boats and put them on whatever route they see fit.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Is Mr. Hanna a steamship man?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Mr. Teakle, of the Allan line, is the experienced man.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: And all matters of policy such as these are entirely in the hands of the Canadian Merchant Marine?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: As far as the management of the ships is concerned.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Questions of policy as to where those boats are to sail would, I presume, be in the hands of this company. So that when the hon. minister takes credit for extending the trade of Canada to such and such ports, the minister was really not responsible for that?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I gave the management full credit for the great showing of the Merchant Marine as to the carrying of Canadian products and the profits. I do not take any credit.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The hon. minister is not responsible for the opening of new trade routes, in any part of the country?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: If any credit is to be given, it is to be given to the management company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: If the minister became convinced that certain sailings were not paying, that certain services-such as the service to Newfoundland for instance-were not paying, could the minister, under his arrangement with the Merchant Marine, make representations to the Merchant Marine?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Surely.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: If the House becomes convinced of this, would the decision of the House have any weight with the Merchant Marine?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The decision of the majority of the House always has influence with the minister.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: It always has?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I am glad to hear that. Therefore, should it be shown that the policy of establishing a service to certain countries, at the same time subsidizing the concern to run the steamship service, were in its nature apparently an absurb policy, a bad system to be followed, could the minister, after listening to representations on the part of shipping men, such as the hon. member from Lunenburg and others, make such a representation to the Company as would induce them to change?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am quite sure that if the member for Lunenburg makes representations to my colleague the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce that he is entitled to a subsidy on his fishing smacks, it will receive careful consideration of the Government.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I do not know that he has asked for any subsidy on fishing smacks, but I think it rather unfair for the minister to say


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I thought I heard him mention the hqn. gentleman's (Mr. Duff's) name.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I said he had made certain representations that it was a bad business to subsidize boats to go to a certain - country or to certain parts, and at the same time to send our own mercantile marine there, often at a loss, and I asked the minister. If he were convinced that these representations of the member for Lunenburg were just and reasonable, could he have any influence on the Merchant Marine Company and ask them to change this policy?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Again, I am sorry my hqn. friend was not with us last night. The Government ships are freight ships- the hon. gentleman from Antigonish and Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair) describes them as tramp ships; I do not call them that. None of them are passenger ships, and, therefore, none of them are subsidized. The ships that are subsidized to Newfoundland, to the West Indies and Australia, are passenger ships subsidized by the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


John Ewen Sinclair: It is not a reflection to call vessels " tramp ships."


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I understand that.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Is there any possibility of the minister influencing the decision of the Merchant Marine Company?
I would like the minister to lay down the principle because I wish to make some representations on behalf of my constituents. Is it worth while making representations to the minister with regard to any question of policy as effecting the Merchant Marine?


Mr. KEEFER:: Is my hon. friend in favour of the Government operating these ships?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I am not.


Francis Henry Keefer: If not in favour of operating them, is he in favour of having them operated by a private company?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I am in favour of getting rid of the whole thing, lock, stock and barrel.


Francis Henry Keefer: Is the hon. member aware of the amount of trade from the west coast of Africa that is now coming to Canada?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: No.


Francis Henry Keefer: Is the hon. member aware how much trade from the coast of Africa is going to the United States?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: No.


Francis Henry Keefer: Would the hon. gentleman think it advisable to have a transport service between here and the west coast of Africa?


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Now, I will put that question to the minister. Will he please give me an answer?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am not the Minister of Trade and Commerce;-he will be here in a few moments.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Then I give that answer to my hon. friend from Port Arthur (Mr. Keefer). Then, may I again ask for an answer to my question whether the minister can influence the management of the Merchant Marine to change or to amend its policy if the proper representations are made?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am a modest man and would not like to claim too much. If, however, my hon. friend will tell me what he wants I will try to get the influence that he thinks I ought to have.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I have recently been asked by a number of people in Quebec and Montreal to place before the minister the suggestion that he ask the Merchant Marine to arrange their services so as to facilitate
19&6

the shipment of horses to the Old Country. I understand that that would be a very profitable trade, and that if we could get the boats, American horsemen would be only too glad to come to Canada and carry on their shipments from Montreal or Quebec. I have also been told that the Merchant Marine boats have been discriminating against the port of Quebec. They obtain cargoes, say, in the East Indies and carry them through to Montreal, refusing, unless the cargoes are very large, to discharge at Quebec, with the result that shipment has to be made by rail back to Quebec. This involves considerable expense and inconvenience on the part of Quebec merchants and consumers, and it would seem to be only fair that these cargoes should be discharged at Quebec. I would like the minister to take these matters into consideration. If we have him with us this afternoon I hope to read to him some letters with reference to the trade in horses with the United Kingdom.


Mr. HERMAS DESLAURIERS (Montreal, St. Mary's):: (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, it is much to be regretted that the Government saw fit to force the Opposition to spend so much time in trying to make them agree to what common sense should have caused them to accept from the start. The difference between the Opposition and the members of the other side of the House is now to be seen clearly, because when some members of the other side suggests some practical measure, dictated by common sense, we of this side are always anxious to accept it. For many years the Government has proven that, on account of our bad financial conditions, it is necessary to practice economy. Now it is in the name of that very economy that the Opposition feel it is their duty to oppose these extravagant Estimates. Mr. Chairman, we cannot possibly agree to the votes asked for, under the present circumstances, for many reasons. First of all, it has not yet been shown to us that the carrying of this naval policy of the hon. Minister of Marine was obligatory, necessary and beneficial. We refuse to vote such enormous sums of money when we know that they will serve to convey once more that same man Crosby from Halifax to Hudson bay where he goes with food for some Eskimos who do not exist there. We refuse to vote any amount in order to allow that man or others to carry to Chesterfield some wire with which to fence 10,000 square miles of land, so that cariboos that never pass

there may breed. We refuse to vote those Estimates because we know that, on the shores of the Richelieu river the minister puts to dry many a vessel that could be used somewhere else. We then refuse these Estimates because we know that at Port Nelson a number of boats do not serve any purpose. There is amongst others a steamer called the Neophyte which is idle on the shore. There are four other barges there. There is* that precious dredge which for the last fifteen days has not been used. For all those reasons, Mr. Chairman, we object to the shipping Estimates at the present time.
We know that the selection of Port Nelson as a seaport is altogether ridiculous, that the natural port of that district was Port Churchill. But the Minister of Marine saw fit to remove the natural port of the Hudson bay from Port Churchill to Port Nelson, which is at the further end of the Hudson bay and where the boats of Crosby cannot reach but at a distance of 25 miles when year after year they carry on shipments of supplies for people who do not exist. And that is the reason why they have transferred there that notorious dredge, in order that they might dig a channel through which ships could more easily reach the port when all the time it was demonstrated that the Nelson carries alluvia which destroys year after year the work accomplished during previous years.
We are asked to grant those sums of money for the building of ships. It was shown lately in this House the present boats of the Government had wandered about the seven seas in quest of cargoes. We have sufficient proof of that.
Now that the war is over and this question of patriotism seems to have been settled for the time being while exports have been reduced to normal, it is understood that we do not need more ships. Moreover, if we wish to help the expansion of shipping, we may, in imitation of the Montreal Vickers', go to work and build ships for Norway and other countries. Why build ships if we have no cargoes to carry? Such a departure might prove most dangerous to our young nation. True it is that we hold this famous title of nation, having bound ourselves to respect the conditions of the League of Nations. Now, as far as Canada is concerned, what does that League of Nations mean? The right hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty) and the former president of the Privy Council (Hon. Mr. Rowell) told us wonderful things in this

connection, things of such a nature as to exalt the patriotism of a young nation to the utmost. On the other hand, their utterances in Europe were dreadful, so much so that, at a certain moment, Europe felt itself shaken and, surely, the nicident would have been most ingracious had not the former president of the Privy Council thought fit to deny his own words.
By clause 10 of the covenant of the league, we bind ourselves to carry, in war time, our human cargo overseas; and by that same clause, we also bind ourselves to carry the victuals necessary to feed about fifty nations. Surely, this famous League of Nations does not rank very high in my estimation, it rather constitutes a snare, a screen behind which Europe may pull its wires at the expense of the smaller nations.
I beg leave to quote an instance of this before I proceed further. When the last war between Russia and Poland took place, Poland and thirty-three other nations had signed the Peace Treaty according to which, in the case of war, those nations were to help Poland to have the integrity of her territory respected, and were to come to her rescue. Well what happened? Poland, in that war with Russia, was abandoned and found herself alone. The nations which had assumed the obligation to defend the integrity of her territory and to use their influence in her favour in the council of the League of Nations, did nothing of the kind. What, then, does that League of Nations amount to? It is apparently a mere means of calling the smaller nations to the rescue of the bigger. Supposing a war was declared in India, in Egypt or elsewhere and we had a navy which was available, our ships would be at the disposal of those nations which had signed the Peace Treaty.
I shall oppose, with all my might, the votes intended to develop the naval scheme of the hon. minister, because a scandalous misuse was made of our ships in the past. No later than three years ago, when the people of this country were put on short allowance in the restaurants and in the hotels, the Government's ships were carrying bacon over to the Esquimaux, who eat nothing hut raw meat, and that merchandise, which would have been so useful to our white people, the officials at Port Nelson were ohliged to deliver it to the Esquimaux, who made candles with it.
We have met with the railway disaster; we have run into a debt of $650,000,000 in connection with the Canadian Northern; we have to conclude the purchase of the Grand Trunk by which we shall incur a debt of
$900,000,000. The railway deficit is a real disaster, and yet, we find, on the Government side, no less a man than the hon. member for Lambton East (Mr. Armstrong) who would like to see the present Government marine operated under similar conditions.
It is claimed in certain quarters that, at a time of enforced idleness, when so many people are out of work, it would be most important for the Government to let contracts and to operate and develop the marine. I think that' reason is groundless. When the last Norwegian ship was launched at Montreal a statement was made during the banquet which followed, to the effect that it was the intention to close the Vickers shipyards within a month or more from that date. I have said, just a few days ago, that we had, in this country, an industrial policy which was surely not unfamiliar to the Government, and that this policy was no more nor less than a policy of protection beyond measure. It is desired that the question of salaries should be settled, and there you have the reason why the president of the company stated at that banquet, that work would cease at the Vickers' shipyards, at Montreal, although there was no lack of contracts.
We also oppose the present votes for economy's sake, because the burden of taxes on the ratepayers' shoulders is already heavy enough. Our marine is bringing us a deficit, our railways have brought us one likewise. It is probable that the Budget will reveal still higher taxes. I find it altogether unreasonable to favour a programme which in the past has brought about deficits and which, on account of its present uselessness, will entail deficits still larger. With a debt of over two billions, we can say that the Government cannot afford to spend such sums for an undertaking which at best can only be a matter of chance.
I heard a short time ago, "The two parties cannot throw stones at each other in the matter of the national railways; the Liberal party have a great share of responsibility, and so have the Government party." There is, however, a slight difference to be considered. Under the Laurier regime it could be allowable for a government to spend something to foster the progress of the country; but at a time when Canada's debt reaches two billions, I think the blame we can level against the present Government is much more serious. We are often told that the resources of the country

must be developed. True, if you have the wherewithal to do so. Our credit is wretched; we have a formidable debt which demands at all cost the strictest economy, and our resources are but hypothetical at the present time. We cannot believe in the reason invoked by the Government that they want to give work to people in shipyards, no more than we could believe them when they talked of a programme of workmen's lodgings. They were to give employment to ail the trades, they were to keep from the working class the danger of unemployment. They had an underlying design. They meant to impose such impossible conditions that no one would accept the offers, and they were refused everywhere.
I admit that under the present circumstances, we should follow the advice of the Government who urge us to practise economy; but we do not want to be the only, ones to do so; they must do likewise; they must put an end to the development of its merchant marine programme; they must stop their expenditure on the Welland canal to make a seaport of Toronto; when we know that the Welland canal can only be of use to the coast trade. Under present circumstances, they ought to undertake to strike out the fifty millions intended for the Welland canal, and the hundred millions voted to continue the development of the port of Toronto which will never be anything but a port for tourists.
I therefore beseech the Government to practise that which they preach, to content themselves with the strictest economy in the matter of shipbuilding. And I hope they will recognize the good faith of the Opposition and the duty which is now imposed upon us to oppose most energetically votes for which there is certainly no excuse, and which can only result in heavier taxes being imposed upon our fellow-citizens.


Mr. GORDON:: The minister has gone
far afield for justification of his merchant marine policy citing legislation existing in Cromwell's time. He may be	Cromwellian	to	that	extent,	buthe	is mistaken	if he	thinks	the
Canadian people are behind this proposition. Leading Canadian journals on both sides of politics have been quoted indicating clearly that the people generally and the business interests are altogether opposed to it, but the Minister apparently intends to carry it through with the assistance of his supporters. Let me quote from the Toronto Saturday Night, the leading financial

journal in Ontario, which has supported the Government in practically all its legislation. The last issue of that journal says:
When the war was at its height and when the deadly submarine was getting in its best work, the thought was very general that it would be years before-there was again sufficient shipping to meet the public demand. But see what has really happened? There are to-day tied up at the docks or swinging at anchor more idle vessels than ever before known. An authoritative statement is to the effect that there are five million dead weight tons of shipping laid up in Britain, America and Scandinavia, a total of 1,278 ships. It is not a case of there being too many vessels, provided world conditions were normal is place of being utterly demoralized as they now are. It is safe to state that there are not less than two hundred million people over in Europe who would only be too glad to see these ships now motionless sailing into their ports carrying from this continent the necessities of life. But, alas, they have nothing with which to pay, so they must go without.
Much of this idle shipping can now be purchased at far less than original cost, the owners being only too glad to get out from under. A prominent Canadian ship broker informed the writer the other day that first-class vessels could now be purchased at well under $10 0 per ton,'whereas these same vessels cost $200 or upward per ton to construct.
This is one of the foremost journals in Ontario and has been a sympathetic supporter of the Government and particularly of the Minister, and what I have just read indicate one of the storm signals in that province.
On Thursday last, April 7, the Evening Telegram of Toronto, which has been a Government supporter ever since it was founded, opposed this scheme in a very vigorous editorial headed " Concealment Can't Help." The editorial reads:
The financial showing of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine is quite as good as was to be expected. But the Minister of Marine might well have been a little more frank with the public. The merchant fleet was started under the stress of war. The building was continued under popular demand that no Government would have dared to deny. The operation has been, so far, as can be seen, businesslike and economical.
But what was to be gained by attempting to conceal the fact that a great deal of the wartime cost will have to be written off? What profiteth it the Government to give a false impression that the fleet showed a surplus when the capital charges must necessarily be taken into account? The fact still remains that the Canadian Government Merchant Marine has a deficit of $1,500,000, a statement such as any business man would give serious consideration when the actual depreciation in shipping values is increased by many millions.
Hon. Mr. Ballantyne may be playing politics, but playing politics won't pay deficits. These are serious financial times in the country's history, and nothing is to be gained by misleading statements that will have to be amended at an early date.

The hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries in presenting his statement to the House gave certain figures which I will repeat briefly.
Operating Account for 1920
Gross revenues closed voyages. . .$10,027,442 77 Operating expenses	 8,733,917 22
Operating profit closed voyages . .$ 1,293,525 55 Deduct-
Depreciation	$667,665	46Outstanding liabilities	
22,000	00Incorporation e xpenses	
5,400	00	695,065	46Net earnings closed voyages. .	. .	598,460
Net earnings on voyages closed
since January applicable to 1920	183,00fr 00
Total net earnings	$	781,460 09
The significant point is this, the minister says:
I wish to point out that these net earnings are before providing for interest, and the above amount of net earnings, $781,460.09 is equal to 2.35 per cent interest on notes given to the Government for the full cost of the ships.
Now, the depreciation in any asset is the difference between its actual cost and its replacement value. The replacement value of ships to-day is shown by the many authorities which have been cited to the House to have been cut in two, and yet the hon. minister assumes to cut off by way of depreciation only the 5 per cent which is the annual depreciation outside of any which comes by reason of the condition of the world's markets and the absence of business for shipping. If a loss of 50 per cent had been caused to the merchant marine by tempest, or in any other way, that would be the present depreciation. Loss has been caused, not by tempest, but by reason of certain conditions existing. So that the proper course for the minister to take would have been to carry on his books the shipping at its actual cost, to write off the depreciation, and to take his loss as any business house would do. I submit that the hon. minister has confused the principles of depreciation, because 5 per cent is depreciation which continues outside of any other consideration, no matter what happens. That is the basis which is generally accepted in the matter of depreciation. But in addition to that, there is the depreciation which results from other causes, such as tempest, fire, or anything else that involves the laying up or destruction of the ships. For such depreciation the minister should have, made allowance in his figures, and had he done so, as the " Telegram " points out, the loss would amount to something like $1,500,000.
The minister should revise his figures in order that the exact situation may be understood, and should adopt the principle that depreciation is the difference between the actual cost and the present replacement value. That is the principle which has been adopted in all the courts. The position is more serious in view of the fact that every dollar taken from business in taxes reduces by $1 the possibilities of business expansion. If it was necessary to keep returned men employed, it would have been well for the Government to cancel its orders when it found that shipping was no longer needed, and adopt some scheme along the line of housing, or establish some fund in e<>
ordination with the funds of the provinces to keep the returned men engaged. By doing so, they would have kept the men busy establishing homes instead of building a vast fleet of ships which is resulting in loss day by day, and the outcome of which we are unable to ascertain.
Every village and every town is opposed to the scheme, and every paper that is printed has something to say in criticism of it. The confidence of the public is shaken, and there is a widespread feeling that the Government should immediately get rid of a scheme which is not paying and which is adding to the burden of this country day by day.
There may be, and there is, a reason why we cannot get rid of our difficulties in connection with railway construction, because railways are necessary to maintain communication between the various parts of the country. Cities, towns and villages would be cut off, and great loss would be entailed in trade and business if we did not carry on the railways even at a loss. But that is an entirely different situation from the shipping; it is entirely different from carrying on trade (between negro ports in Africa and Canada, or carrying whiskey to Cuba and Jamaica, and so on, as is being done, at a loss.
I submit, therefore, that we should not pass the estimates which the minister has submitted to the House, as it is simply throwing money away on a scheme which has not been well considered, and which will entail greater loss as time goes on.


Edmond Savard: (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, I
have often heard people of all conditions say that we should expect anything from the present Government; and I don't doubt but my colleagues on this side of the House have also heard the same opinion expressed;

but there are limits to all things, and that is why we could not foresee that, last night, between eleven o'clock and midnight, after a day especially allotted to the private members, the Government would bring forth this item of eight millions for the consideration of the House, especially under the unfortunate circumstances known to all, circumstances which necessitated the absence of a number of members either already in Montreal or on their way there. I say that the Government must necessarily have known of those regrettable circumstances, and that it took a good deal of audacity on their part to ask the House, under such circumstances, to deal with a matter of such importance. Evidently, had we been able to foresee that the Government would bring forth this matter last night, there is no doubt, as was stated with as much sincerity as valiance by the hon. member for Dorchester (Mr. Cannon), that most of the members would have spent the night here to take part in the debate.
There is no doubt but that the Government counted upon the absence of many of us; but if they had hoped thus to pass this item without difficulty, they must have found themselves much out in their calculations. The Opposition is still hale and hearty, and ready to fight day and night, the whole week if need be, until the Government bring into operation the means at their disposal to close our mouths, and apply foreclosure.
Mr. Chairman, like all those who have spoken before me I am opposed to this Government marine policy, and I also, am decided to adopt all possible means to oppose it. The Opposition have been blamed for having passed the time, during the night, in reading paper extracts. Has not the Opposition a right to do so? Have they not the full right to do so? The duty of the Opposition here is to express the opinion of the public, the opinion of the electorate throughout the country. And what is the best way to do that? Is it not by quoting such comments as are made by the Canadian press? Although it may displease the Government, or perhaps the hon. Minister of Marine, I beg forgiveness for giving myself the pleasure of reading an extract -and especially of reading it in English- of an article published by the Citizen of Ottawa, in December, 1920. I do not know whether this article has ever been read; in any case, it may be well to read it again.
Too Many Ships.
While our Government is taking much credit to itself for its extensive and costly shipbuild-

ing programme, which goes on apace, there is developing a world situation in tonnage which is becoming of serious import to all maritime nations. This relates to the glut of tonnage from which the European and American continent is suffering. Writing in the New York Evening Post, Mr. Allan Nevins calls attention to the fact that the United States shipping ' board has tied up seven steel vessels since the end of September and now announces that eight more, all large ships, have been withdrawn. A noted American authority on maritime affairs is quoted to the effect that hardly half the world's available ocean tonnage is being employed at this time and that a general fall in shipping securities in the United'States and Britain marks the general situation. Companies here and abroad have resorted to special devices to keep their tonnage moving. Five lines plying from Liverpool to Oriental ports-the Cunard, Ellerman, Moss and others -have offered rebates to shippers who will promise to restrict themselves to their vessels. Steamship agents in New York and other American ports are making vigorous efforts to obtain parcel freight in default of full cargo shipments. A fortnight ago the American shipping board announced that American lines carrying freight to the four chief ports of Germany, Holland, Belgium and France, would be allowed to fix their own rates. This means a price-cutting war in competition with European lines.
The chief causes for the present situation are given as too much tonnage and a heavy decline in freight shipping. According to Lloyd's Register the world had, in June, 1914, a gross tonnage of about 45% million tons of shipping. In June of this year it had almost 54 million tons. In addition to this there is building some seven or eight million more tons. In the United States the shipping board has attempted in vain to sell some of the 1,000 steel ships under its control to private parties, but the knowledge that the world is in for a protracted spell of sharp competition and of freight rates that spell disaster to lines lacking in efficiency and very heavy capital has proved too strong for the board to do business.
For this reason and for several others, we are strongly opposed to this naval policy, but the chief reason is that the country cannot afford this expense, as many an hon. member has repeatedly said before me, but in such a struggle as we have been going through, since last night, I think repetitions are necessary, and there cannot be too many of them.
Some time ago, I heard the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals state before this committee that for several years no railway would be built by the Government. The same thing has been said for the Public Works Department. There is a pressing need of certain works which we have asked for, for many a year, such as an extension of the wharf at Chicoutimi, for this wharf is too small, and the development of our district is consequently delayed. We are invariably told: "We cannot do anything for you, the Government has no

money." It has been the same for everything we have asked. I have always received the same answer to all that I have asked for, for several years: "We have no money, and the proof is that we do not undertake any work." That is why thirty-one engineering offices have been closed in the country; the Government have closed sixteen of these offices in the Department of Public Works. We are told that the Government have decided not to undertake any public works because of the need for economy. These offices have been closed; yet, I hear that the employees have been kept on, that they have been transferred to other departments. As I have already said on many another occasion, the county of Chicoutimi is certainly a beautiful one. I believe that on the other side of the House, there is not one member who has any idea of the extent of the district of Chicoutimi-Saguenay, and even on this side of the House, I am sure that some would be surprised were I to tell them that in order to go from one end of my county to the other, one has to travel eight hundred miles. It is perhaps larger than the rest of the province of Quebec. The Dominion Government owns large properties in the lake St. John district and also in the Chicoutimi district, and all along the northern coast to Labrador. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say that the Government has built in my district, in the lake St. John district, and along the Saguenay, about sixty wharves which will certainly fall to pieces, now that the engineer's office is to be closed.
I do not know whether this engineer has left his office; at any rate, the closing of the office is a foregone conclusion; the engineer will leave Chicoutimi and come and live in Quebec; and the Government property-some sixty wharves-will continue to deteriorate. Besides, the Government has had dredges made; they spent several thousand dollars in the dredging of the Saguenay river; but there are absolutely urgent works to be attended to, for the district is going to develop at an unexpected rate within the next few years. However the Government seem to put obstacles in the way and impede progress. Why refuse in all the counties of the country the carrying out of absolutely necessary works, and spend some ten millions for an altogether useless marine? When we confer about such matters with well informed people, people of second judgment and free from political entanglement, they cannot imagine that a government should
take the responsibility of so nefarious a policy: of spending ten millions for an absolutely useless marine while refusing to carry out positively urgent works in all parts of the country.
Well, as I had occasion to say yesterday, the Government under a pretense of economy, has suppressed a small grant which the Laurier government had allowed for 12 or 15 years, as soon as the Price firm ceased to carry on its industry at St. Catherine's bay. For several years Sir Wilfrid Laurier's government granted a supply of $3,500 to a very interesting population, that of the north shore. It is not a mere fishing community; they have large industries, they own fine farms, numerous, flourishing parishes. Now, under the pretence of economizing a few cents, this population is deprived of an absolutely necessary service. The Minister of Commerce gives as a reason for it that this service is a "ferry service". I had always understood that a ferry service was carried on between the two shores of a river. This subsidy granted by the right hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier was to allow a boat to go from Tadoussac, on the north shore of the St. Lawrence, to St. Catherine's bay, which is not on the Saguenay river but on the St. Lawrence. Therefore it seems to me that this cannot be a "ferry service". When a boat leaves Tadoussac she has to go to the St. Lawrence and come back to St. Catherine's bay. For 12 years this subsidy was granted; everybody found it absolutely'necessary, and now, in order to save a few dollars a whole population of about fifteen thousand souls are deprived of all communication during the long winter months.
I say that, for all those reasons, no confidence can be placed in ministers, who thus carry on the business of the country, and I oppose the vote of eight millions which the Minister of Marine is asking for.


Mr. LAVIGUEUR:: Before making the
few remarks that I desire to address to the committee upon this subject, I would like to ask the hon. minister or the right hon. gentleman who leads the House a few questions. I would like to ask if many demands have been made by the people of Quebec, or from the district of Quebec, for contracts for ship-building?


George Green Foster: I understand
that quite a large number of demands came in from different parts of the province of Quebec.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Would the right
hon. gentleman give the names of those who made requests from Quebec?


George Green Foster: No, my hon.
friend had better put that question to the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries.


William Duff: It seems to me that the
Minister of Marine should be here when his estimates were going through.


George Green Foster: The Minister
of Marine has been here for the greater portion of the time.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: This is a very important question, and I am greatly surprised that my right hon. friend does not give the information, because it is to my knowledge that quite a few demands have been made by very reliable and important firms in Quebec who were recommended by the most prominent citizens in Quebec for contracts. The city of Quebec pays a large share of the taxes of this country, and the people there were entitled to their share of the patronage as much as the people of any other part of the country. That is why I would like, and why I would insist upon, a reply from the right hon. minister who leads the House, or from the Minister of Marine. I quite understand that the hon. Minister of Marine has given quite a lot of time and has been in the House most of the time since yesterday. But, on the other hand, if the Government are not in a position to answer my question, I would like to have an adjournment until the Government is prepared to give an answer.


George Green Foster: My hon. friend might have taken an earlier opportunity, when the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries was in the House, to put his question, but I will make a note of those questions and hand them to the Minister of Marine when he comes in, and my hon. friend will get an answer to his questions.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: What the right hon. gentleman who now leads the House says is quite right. But this is the first time I have had occasion to speak on the question.


George Green Foster: Let my hon.
friend put his question, and I will make a note of it for the Minister of Marine when he comes in.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: It is my turn to
speak now, and it is my right to get an answer to my question.


George Green Foster: Allez, go to it.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Mr. Chairman, I
have the pleasure now of seeing the Minis-

ter of Marine and Fisheries coming to his seat, and with your kind permission, I will repeat my question. I would like to ask if it is to the knowledge of the hon. minister that some demands were made upon the Government for contracts for building ships in the city of Quebec, and in the district of Quebec.	-


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I think the hon.
member is aware that the Government when they were placing contracts placed a contract with the Davis Shipbuilding Company for two-three-ships.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: That is not exactly an answer to my question. Does the hon. minister say that a contract for two ships-


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Three.
Mr. LAVIGUEUR-was placed with the Davis Shipbuilding Yards at Levis? Is it to the knowledge of the hon. the minister that quite a demand was made by Quebec firms outside the Davis firm for contracts for building ships?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am not aware
that there is any shipbuilding yard in the city of Quebec building steel ships except the Davis firm; I know they build wooden ships at Quebec, but the Government is not building wooden ships, only steel.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Another point: Is
it not to the knowledge of the hon. the minister that the Quinlan & Robinson firm of Quebec have applied several times for contracts for shipbuilding in the city of Quebec?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not that I am
aware of. I can only repeat what I stated a moment ago that they are not steel shipbuilders, and we are not ordering wooden vessels.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Can the hon. minister tell me why they do not order wooden vessels ?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My hon. friends opposite have found much fault with the Government during the last twenty-four hours for ordering steel vessels, and it may be that their criticism would have been still worse if we had ordered wooden ships.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Was not fault found when the contract was entered into for steel ships?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Oh, no; when the Government launched their shipbuilding programme it was with the consent and approval of hon. gentlemen on both sides of

[DOT]the House, including the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lavigueur). The demand was for steel only, not for wooden ships.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Is the hon. minister aware that for a great number of years Quebec has been a great centre of shipbuilding?	_


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Of wooden ships, yes.
Mr.' LAVIGUEUR: The firm of Quin-land & Robinson, of Quebec, of which mention has been made, have built some wooden ships and I understand that they have been quite satisfactory, and have carried out their contract.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have not any knowledge whatever with regard to wooden ships. We did not order any, and I have no personal knowledge of wooden ships; 1 advised the Government not to order any, and I advised them to confine their shipbuilding programme to steel ships. I think my advice on that occasion was wise.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: I would like the hon. minister to tell us why he should be opposed to wooden ships.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I think the hon. member is aware- of the fact that wooden ships are out of date in competition with steel ships, and while all other countries ordered wooden ships during the war-I am sorry my hon. friend was not here through the very pleasant evening which we spent last night when I made the statement that the United States has a million tons of wooden vessels they do not know what to do with,, and England and France with Norway-large tonnage of wooden vessels which cost them $200 per ton. Luckily for Canada we have not any wooden ships.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: (Translation.) Last night a bomb exploded in the House of Commons. A credit of $8,330,000 was asked for the Merchant Marine. The House was taken by surprise. No one expected that such a demand would be made last night. The debate started vigorously. The siting lasted all night; it will last probably all day and perhaps the whole week. The members on your left, Mr. Chairman, are convinced they have an imperious duty to fulfil, and want to protect with all their might against this policy, which is condemned by the electors from one end of the country to the other.
We were given, last week, a statement on' the operation of the Government railways, acknowledging a deficit of seventy
million dollars, and I believe that if the auditing of the accounts of the administration of the National Railways was conscientiously and properly made, it would not be seventy millions we would have to deplore, but more likely one hundred millions and perhaps more, as stated by many newspapers, including those favourable to the Government. It is therefore found, Mr. Chairman, that the Government operation of the National Railways is disastrous, to the utmost, altogether ruinous, and calculated to bankrupt the country, unless the Government be driven from office by the wrath and indignation of the people, and unless competent people having the interest of Canada at heart, should take the direction of national affairs. After having had a deficit of 120 millions in two years with the railways, the hon. Minister of Marine asks us to continue the building of a Merchant Marine as a means of giving employment to returned soldiers. This aim would be most praiseworthy, and if it had been faithfully carried out there would have been nothing but congratulation to offered to the Government. But, as in all the programmes introduced by the Government, this one has been brought down as a mean of maintaining themselves in power, ontwithstanding the will of the people. Favouritism has been shown to friends of the Government in the giving of contracts, and a bid made for popularity.
I asked the hon. Minister of Marine a short time ago if he had received requests from different parts of the province and from the district of Quebec for shipbuilding contracts. The hon. minister does not recollect having received numerous requests from this district. I know that he speaks in good faith when he says his memory fails him, but to my personal knowledge the most urgent requests have been made to the Government by firms of the highest standing for some of these contracts for Quebec, the cradle of shipbuilding in Canada, in order that work might be given there, as elsewhere to the brave soldiers who distinguised themselves at the front, and who asked the Government an opportunity to earn the bread for their families. If the Department of Marine wishes to make the necessary search it will be found that the Quebec firm of Quinlan and Robertson, offered to construct steel vessels at that place, but there have been no contracts for shipbuilding given to Quebec. There is neither work nor patronnage of any kind for that city, because it is hostile to this Government. I

have myself pleaded with the Government; I have forwarded petitions. Formerly I had the honour to be mayor of the city of Quebec ant it was in that capacity that I took these steps. The Quebec Chamber of Commerce also applied to the Government with the same objection in view, but we received merely acknowlegements of our petitions, and the contracts were given elsewhere, some times without tenders, to the friends of the Government. Enormous contracts were given, and Quebec was rerefused even the slightest consideration for the returned soldier who wanted bread for his family. Apart from the firm of Quinlan and Robertson, the Davie Shipbuilding Co. of Levis, one of the best organized firms in the country also applied for contracts. The hon. minister answered one of my questions just now by saying that the firm of Davie, of Levis, had built two vessels, and had given full and entire satisfaction. A lay number people from the city of Quebec worked in the Davie Shipyards, and Levis as well as Quebec tried to obtain contracts, but the citizens of Levis were no luckier than those of Quebec, and after the building of the two boats, no other contract was given. The great majority of the labourers who worked at Levis were deturned soldiers, as I know from having Government places for most of them, and they are now thrown out of work.
I listened with much interest to the judicious remarks of the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) an the subject of shipbuilding, and I congratulate the hon. member upon the valuable and interesting information he has given to the country. The same applies also to the hon. member for Antigonish and Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair).
Because of the disastrous Gouvernment Merchant Marine policy, and the administration of the National railways, the people of the country are to be bled white to replenish the public treasury to which they willingly contribute since they know that the Government during the war contracted very heavy debts which, whether wise or not, have to be paid. The public is obliged to make the greatest sacrifices, even the humble labourer who earns barely enough to keep his family, must contribute a certain percentage of the wages he earns by hard work, to pay the debts contracted by this Government. And where does this money go? Can the tax-payers at least have the satisfaction of being able to say that their money serves to decrease

the National debt? No, Mr. Chairman, I am well informed? I believe that the Income tax brought about 28 millions to the public Treasury last year. Has any part of these 28 millions been used to reduce the national debt? On the contrary, these amounts contribute only iil a small degree to pay off the disastrous administration of the national railways and merchant! marine, which are running the country to ruin and will prove more costly to the people than the war.
I was proud and rather satisfied to notice lately that the city of Quebec for the year 1919, had contributed to the public treasury through the income tax, the amount of $2,-
800,000.	It has therefore the right to claim her share in the distribution of government grants. Each time, however, Quebec has asked for some favour; what has been the Government's reply? Only of late, I petitioned the hon. Minister of Public Works, asking for the rebuilding of a breast wall, the property of the Government, which had been destroyed during the flood of 1918 and which supported the Saint Gregoire de Montmorency road, in the beautiful county that I have the honour to represent in this House. It was refused, they even declined to do anything, whatsoever, even to repair this property which was their own. My predecessor asked the Government who had even promised to relieve the situation by the construction of a bridge on the island of Orleans connecting the mainland with seven of the most flourishing parishes of the Quebec district, comprising deserving farmers, who. are isolated on that island during a certain period of the year, when they cannot sell their products to the city and neither ship them, not even can they dispose of their fish which become a loss, Mr. Chairman, at a time when we are pre-occupied in lowering the cost of living. Subsidies were once granted them but they have since been cancelled. For many years we have insisted that the Government put to execution this important project, and which will be done, you may rest assured, when the Government of this country will be under the administration of persons having a sense of justice and wish to be equitable to the population of this country without distinction of race or religion.
When we shall have at the head of the Government men of the stamp that I have just mentioned, the bridge of the island of Orleans will be built and it will be an act of justice and an important improvement.

We have requested, Mr. Chairman, that the Government instead of throwing away their money in enterprises like the merchant marine, in order to favour their friends, I might also add the city of Quebec has also made the request, that this Government, its Premier its ministers, the entire Cabinet, fulfil the contract and keep their pledges. While the right hon. member for King's (Sir Robert Borden) is in his seat, I shall recall his words pronounced in 1913 at the Chateau Frontenac on the occasion of a large banquet given to him by the citizens of Quebec. He then declared to the citizens of Quebec that he wished to do them justice and that he had come to Quebec to see that these large enterprises were to be continued without any interruption and completed. Where are those pledges, those contracts signed1 by the Government for which the city of Quebec has made enormous sacrifices to obtain the development of railways, to obtain the transportation of the western wheat which had been promised to them and which was to the advantage of the whole country? The promises, the contracts, the solemn pledges and the declarations made by ex-Premier of Canada before many hundreds of persons at the Chateau Frontenac, in Quebec, where are they? All these pledges have become a dead letter. They always answered us:	"Gentlemen,
your demands are reasonable, but we cannot for a moment think, during war time, to execute any work, we cannot think of spending any money." Nevertheless, we voted millions after millions and the Government spent that money in the building of ships and they refused to the citizens of the Quebec district, improvements which would have benefited the whole country. They continued to ship the western grain through the American ports, at a 'cost of 34 to 35 cents per bushel, when by shipping it by the St. Lawrence river and Quebec, route, having given us the wharves and the elevators promised, we could have shipped the Winnipeg wheat at a cost of about 16 or 17 cents per bushel, this is to say 50 per cent cheaper and at the same time utilize our national railways and shortten the route by 214 miles, from Quebec to Winnipeg. This is the way that the Quebec province has been treated by the Government since 1911. And to-day when they wish to bring on closer relations with Quebec, when they want to shake hands on the eve of federal elections, is it not time, Sir, for the citizens of the province of Quebec to
consider how shamefully they have been treated by the Government. You may be sure, Mr. Chairman, that the people of the city of Quebec and of the whole province do remember and will not forget; such is their motto. Can this Government, which has only three members from Quebec in its ranks, after having denied all its pledges and if I may be allowed to use the expression-boycott the province of Quebec, can this Government expect in the next general election any other result than that which it obtained in 1917? The representatives who will be sent to this House by the province of Quebec will be just as united as they are to-day.
There has been another injustice towards the city of Quebec to which I would like also to refer. Quebec has a very well organized exhibition, whose board always relied on the $50,000 allowed by the Dominion Government. When our turn came to apply for the grant, we were told that the Government could not give it because they had to economize during the war. It is always the same answer as regards the province of Quebec. After the war, we sent our request to which they replied: "We are not giving any more grants; we have done it two or three times for other provinces; Quebec never got it, but, now we have stopped these grants."
I wanted to draw the attention to that injustice on the part of the Government towards the city of Quebec, because if you want to have god farm products and to encourage young people to remain on the land in order to cultivate it and to provide cargoes for the Government ships, it seems to me that it would be an excellent policy to give a little encouragement to the good farmers of the Quebec district, as it has been done elsewhere, and to give to Quebec the grant which it did not get, although entitled to it. The Board of Harbour Commissioners did not meet with greater success, when they asked for the construction of a cold storage plant, which would allow to ship through Quebec the butter and cheese which we are forced to ship through Montreal, because we have no cold storage plant in Quebec. I do not know that any of the members of the Government who are present in this House can say that the province and especially the city of Quebec actually received a share of the grants.
Allow me, Mr. Chairman, to say a few words about the government-owned railways and the service which we have in Quebec. I believe it is the duty of the

people to patronize the national roads as much as possible and when I am not in too great a hurry to reach Quebec or Ottawa, I travel on the Canadian Northern. Do you know what kind of service we get between Quebec and Montreal, for instance? The Canadian Pacific runs three good trains daily which cover the distance in five hours; the Canadian Northern has pretty good coaches, it is a fairly good train but it takes seven hours to go from Quebec to Montreal. When taking the Ocean Limited from Montreal to Quebec, you would think that they would make use of the Quebec bridge and take the passengers right through to the city, however they do nothing of the kind. The Ocean Limited, when not late, reaches Levis at five minutes past twelve at night, and there is a boat to take the passengers over to Quebec city; but unfortunately it happens sometimes that the train is late-it is a habit with the government-owned railways -and as it reaches Levis at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning, passengers have to wait on the wharf for ferry boat. Travellers coming from Quebec to take the Ocean Limited, who number sometimes 50 or 60 and perhaps a 100, cross over with the ferry boat which leaves at 11.30 p.m. and if the train is late, they have to wait in the open air until 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning. That is how the national railways are being operated. It would be much better to have a train leaving from the Pacific station, which would go over the Quebec bridge and connect with the Ocean Limited, for the convenience of the passengers bound for Montreal, and those bound for Quebec could be taken right through to the city. When a request to that effect was made by the council and the Chamber of Commerce of Quebec, the Government replied that it would involve too great an expense. The administration of our national railways is the same throughout the country.
The operation of the road is about the same elsewhere-I have had occasion to travel a little between Quebec and Winnipeg, for instance. When I passed by way of Toronto, I found magnificent coaches, very large, very well appointed; but if I pass via Cochrane, it is another story between that place and Quebec. It is as if one would say, It will always be good enough for Quebec-I would like the Minister of Railways to see for himself; I am sure he is ignorant of the state of things, and I would be most happy if he could realize what kind of service is given from [Mir. Da vigueur. ]
Cochrane to Quebec. It is one that could not be compared with that to be had between Toronto to Winnipeg.
These are some of the grievances of the citizens of Quebec. For my part, I am absolutely opposed to the policy of the Government Merchant Marine, which is nothing less than a duplicate of the disastrous National Railways policy, and had I an advice to give the Government, I would tell them to give up the whole scheme at all cost, immediatetly if possible, to get rid of this load which is breaking the country's back, and which together with the national railways, spells the ruin of the nation.
I said a moment ago that we had solicited contracts for the firm Quinlan & Robertson. It comes to my memory now that we also asked for contracts for a company of shipbuilders of Saint Laurent, on the Isle of Orleans, which employ a large number of workmen there and elsewhere. This request was no more heeded by the Government than the others. So that when I say that the distribution of contracts was marked by favouritism, I believe that it will be admitted that I am absolutely justified.
Therefore, Mr. Chairman I shall vote against the item of $8,338,000, and I will ask the Government before indulging in useless expenditure, before sinking millions as they do, to give a little more consideration to the citizens of Quebec, who pay their taxes like everybody else. I will ask them again to continue the work on the St. Charles river, at Quebec, and I will not weary asking this. The Government have already sunk $1,600,000 in these works; moreover they have cancelled the contract which they had with the contractors and acquired the whole plant, and if I am well informed this plant was valued at about five of six -hundred thousand dollars. Without any reason, the Government, some day, decided to discontinue the work in spite of engagements taken and in spite of their contracts. Notwithstanding many solicitations from the citizens of Quebec, the Government have refused to resume the work, and the matter will no doubt go no further, like the rest. It seems to me this would have secured a fine port for the Government marine.
I will vote against this item of $8,000,000.


Arthur Meighen: Mr. Chairman, the committee has been sitting for about eighteen hours continuously. The item under discussion was before the committee on a previous day from about 4.30 until six

o'clock, and again from eight o'clock in the evening until 12.30 the next morning. Certain hon. gentlemen opposite have formed the opinion that they should block this item, for what purpose I am unable to conceive, and for what purpose I modestly suggest they do not quite understand themselves.
The history of the item under review is very briefly this:	During the progress of
the war, indeed at a period which turned out to be fairly near the end, having in mind the total amount of construction, the Government did undertake a shipbuilding programme of certain dimensions. Toward the undertaking of that programme they had been repeatedly urged by the hon. members of this House, and from the entire Dominion pressing requests came that this country should commence the task of establishing a mercantile marine, requests that were all the more pressing because of the all too-imminent necessity of the hour.
That policy was embarked upon, if I am correctly informed, with the unanimous approval of this House in the first place. That was in the spring of the year 1918. In the spring of the year 1919, after the armistice had been signed, but before, I believe, peace was formally established, the policy was continued with certain limitations. A vote of this House was taken for its continuance, amounting to $30,000,000, and my recollection is that that vote was unanimous, some objection being taken (but no vote being called for) on the part, not of the official Opposition, but of one or two hon. gentlemen who now are among the Farmer group. However, the policy that the Government had ventured upon received the unanimous, or almost the unanimous endorsation of this Parliament some six months or more after the armistice had been signed, with the limitations set up in the vote of that day. That constituted endorsation of the programme which the vote embodied, and to which the vote should be applied. Following out the mandate of Parliament, the Government let certain contracts, and the decision to let the last contract was come to in the month of December, 1919, now almost a year and a half ago.
Towards the end of the year 1919, the unemployment situation in Canada was becoming more and more acute; not that we suffered as other countries did, but undoubtedly in December, 1919, and during the early months of 1920 there was very considerable distress due to unemployment
in various parts of the country. The Government was importuned, as only a Government can be importuned, to relieve that distress. The importunity was particularly strong because so great a degree of the distress was suffered by men who had returned from the war, and the chief pressure came from those men, and from those who represented them and pressed for consideration on their behalf. That was a factor of considerable magnitude in relation to the letting of the last two or three vessels or more, all of which had been authorized by this Parliament.
Now, I say again, the last decision was arrived at in that month. Efforts were made to keep the price down to the lowest possible point, thus delaying the final Order in Council approving of the contract until the month of March, 1920. Since that date no new engagement of any kind has been entered upon, none whatever; all that the Government has done, all that was left to do, has been to carry out the obligations into which this country had entered by the authority of this Parliament, by virtually the unanimous authority of this Parliament and which had been pressed upon us from all sides.
To complete that work, to carry out the contracts into which we had solemnly entered by the authority of Parliament, a vote was taken last year. It was stated in that vote last year that more would be required, that probably it would be impossible to complete the ships within the then present year, and that something more would be later requested. The vote that is now before the House, a vote of $8,000,000, is to cover $4,665,000 that was included in last year's $20,000,000 vote, and the balance for that completion which it was plainly stated last year would be required as the work would necessarily continue into this year. The Government then is merely engaged in asking for a revote of about three-fifths of this amount and of the other two-fifths for the completion of work which this Government was authorized to perform by this House.
The position of the Opposition, if I am able to put it into words, seems to be this: They are entirely with us in authorizing expenditure at a time when it is popular, where the work is being done, but after the work is nearly done and it is time to pay, then they are altogether against us. They quite agree that the country should enter into solemn engage-


P.EVISED EDITION COMMONS
[Stage Direction]
ments, but they are entirely opposed to the country carrying them out.
Just a few days ago, one hon. gentleman stated that because certain moneys were not paid in London, England* he hung his head in shame at the spectacle of Canada repudiating her obligations. Canada has repudiated no obligation to which Canada was bound, but the party of which he is a member now believes that this House should be held between heaven and earth, stagnant, sterile, doing nothing, for days for fear that Canada may comply with her obligations to people of this country. There are contracts to pay for that have been entered into, and there are also contracts to complete. Are hon. gentlemen taking the position that we are perfectly right in laying down the hull of a vessel, but wholly wrong in completing the vessel?-that it is perfectly proper to build a ship, but wholly wrong to put the engines in that ship? Do they say that it is wholly wrong to complete that which it was wholly right to commence? Because they believe that just at this time when the operation of shipping the world over is suffering by reason of reversal, in which suffering we bear our part, do they say this is the time- for the Opposition to stand here and say, " When the sun shines everything is all right and we approve of it, but when the clouds come we go back on everything we have said and we want to sit back and do nothing?" I was surprised that the hon. gentlemen of the agrarian party should have allowed themselves to be lured by plausible phrasing on the part of the official Opposition into the position they have got themselves in. Are they aware that the leader of the agrarian Opposition (Mr. Crerar) was a member of the Government when the whole work was undertaken and when the last ship was ordered?
Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am quite sure my right hon. friend the Prime Minister does not willingly misrepresent me. I left the Government early in June, 1919, and I have here Hansard, containing a question asked by my hon. friend, the member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) -


Arthur Meighen: I beg the hon. gentleman's pardon; he is right, I know the point he is making.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Mr. Chairman, my right hon. friend made the statement definitely and very explicitly that I was in the Government when the last contract was made.

I left the Government early in June, 1919, and I want to tell my right hon. friend, and my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, that according to the information brought down in reply to the question by my hon. friend from Lunenburg in this House, and answered on March 4th, of this year, the last contract for these ships, two in number, was let on the 7tli April, 1920, ten months after I left the Government. Now, I do not wish to take up the time of my right hon. friend the leader of the Government, but this simply illustrates all that he knows, and all that my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries knows, about his own business. When my right, hon. friend the leader of the Government makes such sweeping statements in order to score a point, he wants to be very certain that his facts are correct before he repeats them.


Arthur Meighen: I was quite ready the moment the hon. gentleman called attention to the date. I knew then I was wrong in that statement, and I accepted the hon. gentleman's statement-the hon. gentleman's resignation was in the June previous -and for that error I am quite prepared to make amends to the hon. gentleman. I have no desire to misstate the position of anyone. But the fact that the hon. gentleman was not a member of the Government at the time the contract for these two ships was let, does not alter the fact that he was a member of the Government when the estimate was prepared and brought into this House and that he supported the entire shipbuilding policy when it was thus undertaken.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Might I ask my right hon. friend another question? If his statement just now is correct, does he mean to say that that commits me indefinitely to the building of ships by the Government?


Arthur Meighen: It commits the hon. gentleman to the support of the programme which was then undertaken. That is the point. We are not taking a policy, we are not continuing a policy but only completing an authorized programme which he supported. We undertook a certain task which we are carrying out. It is true, the contract for two ships were let after the hon. gentleman resigned, but that is not a reversal of policy, it is an execution of policy -


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Almost one-third of the contracts for building ships were let after I left the Government.


Arthur Meighen: Let me say that if 1 understand the situation aright, the position of the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Clark) at least has the greatest resemblance to consistency of that of any hon. gentleman opposite. He takes the position that we should not have undertaken the building of ships at all, the building of ships being peculiarly the commercial prerogative of the United Kingdom, they being able to build them much more cheaply than we, and that consequently we should leave to them the work of supplying the carrying needs of this country. While it might be such a difficult task for us that it may not be wise for us ordinarily to enter into competition of that nature, at the time this was done there were very special circumstances which made it our duty to build them, even at great cost; special circumstances which made it our duty to build ships in this country because they were required, and had to be built wherever the ships could be constructed. These are the circumstances under which this programme was undertaken. The hon. gentleman went through a performance similar to that in which he has been engaged during the last twenty-four hours some years ago. In 1913 I remember he delivered then a long series of speeches, taking the ground that instead of ordering any ships for war purposes in England, we ought to build two fleet units in this country, no matter what they cost, that we ought to build ships on the Atlantic , and on the Pacific, at a time wben the cost of building in this country would have been easily double the cost in England and at a time when emergency called for them being built with the least possible delay. The hon. gentleman held this Parliament up, or was instrumental in doing so for weeks in an effort to compel the building of ships in Canada for purposes of war, on the Atlantic and on the Pacific, at a cost of probably fifty million dollars to this-country. At a time when the ships had to be built we undertook the building of seventy million dollars' worth of ships to this country.
But hon. gentlemen opposite are evidently tired of the task they have undertaken on this occasion. One after the other they have pleaded that this debate be brought to a close, that they do not want to continue the performance that has been going on for some thirty hours. Well, I do not think we could wish clearer evidence of the purpose of that performance. The hon. member for Red Deer, the hon. member for St. James, Montreal, the hon. member for Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, and the hon. mem-
125i
ber for Westmoreland all have pleaded for the Government to intervene and have the closure applied in this committee. Well, if that be so, it is'pretty good evidence of the purpose of their talk. It is the best evidence that the debate was conducted only in order that it would have to be stopped. Under the circumstances, I feel that it is the duty of hon. gentlemen on this side of the House to accede to their request. The Estimates were brought down in this House on the 8th of last month. I believe the debate on the Address was finished only on the 3rd. I do not know of any previous occasion when the Estimates were brought down so early after the conclusion of the debate on the Address. Commencing, I think, on the 15th, or earlier, on each and every day when the House reached Government Orders, we have moved the House into Committee of Supply. As yet merely fractional items have gone through. The progress this House has made has been infinitesimal compared with the work the House has to do, and if this is to go on, then Parliament will cease to be the High Court of the nation. It will arrive at a status in the public eye that I, for one, would not like to contemplate. I, therefore, feel it my duty to take the first step to bring to an end this performance, and I move that the further consideration of this item be postponed.


Mr. MURPHY:: Under the rules this motion is not debatable.


Georges Henri Boivin: No.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Ocean and river service-maintenance and repairs to Dominion steamers and icebreakers, ?1,750,000.
Mr. PARENT:: May I ask what amount of money has been spent for the icebreaker Montcalm?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The amount was $138,094.


Georges Parent: Perhaps the hon. gentleman would save time if he would give us the names of the various steamers and the amount of money spent for repairs on each one.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The names of the vessels and the amounts spent on each are as follows:
The Aberdeen	$ 5,784
The Arranmore	nothing
The Argentine	 160
The Bellechasse	 1,890
The Brant (hull	repairs) ..	..	1,393The Concretia (hull	repairs)	..	214The	Dollard	
1,773The	Druid	46,810t The	Estevan	(hull repairs).. 5,900' The Prontenac	
2,200The Grenville	
4,500. The Lady Grey	71,000The	Lady Laurier	
1,060The LamMon	
2,753The Laurentian	2S,000The Montcalm	
20,000The Newtington	
3,400The Reserve	
900The Rouville	
9,000The Scout	
893The Shamrock	16,600The Stanley	10,000The Thomas Mason	
191The Vercheres	
900The H. W. Lee	
2,890


Georges Parent: Is there any special reason why repairs amounting to $46,810 were made to the Druid?
Mr.' BALLANTYNE:	The steamer
Druid was in a very bad state of repair,
and naturally the cost of putting her in
proper seaworthy shape was greater than if she had not been in such a bad state of repair.


Georges Parent: What is her tonnage?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: None of these ships is bought or operated according to tonnage. They are just small river craft.


Georges Parent: Has the minister an idea how much it would cost to buy a ship similar to the Druid at the present time or at last year's prices? No doubt, with his experience in shipbuilding, he will be able to give the committee that information.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not claim any particular experience in shipping. The hon. member probably has in mind the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff). I could not give the hon. member the information for which he asks.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I am told that the steamer Champlain, which up to last year-belonged to the Canadian Government, was sold to the Gulf of St. Lawrence Navigation Company, and for some reason or another, some delay occurred in obtaining a settlement of the accounts. Can the minister give me some enlightenment as to this matter?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The matter is now in the hands of the Justice Department, but the Government are fully protected by note and mortgage on the ship.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Who is attending to the Government's side of the case in the matter. Who is the attorney of record?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: As my hon. friend knows, there are a large number of attorneys and other legal gentlemen in the Justice Department. I cannot give my hon. friend the particular name.


Pierre-François Casgrain: The minister does not quite catch the point I want to make. Generally, there are in the Department of Justice different lawyers looking after special cases; but when it comes to a matter of pleading cases before the Exchequer Court 6r Supreme Court or a local court, the department generally retains the services of lawyers in the different localities where the cases are to be pleaded. In one instance in Quebec where an expropriation was going on, the Government retained the services of Mr. Bernier, who is now a judge. In the present case, who is the attorney, if any, who has been selected to look after the interests of the Government?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am sorry I cannot give the hon. member the name of the legal gentleman in the Justice Department, but my colleague, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty), has promised to get it for me.


Pierre-François Casgrain: It may be that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries is not in a position to give the committee that enlightenment, but I see next to him the Minister of Justice, and surely the Minister of Justice knows who is retained for this case. I wish he could whisper to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries the name of this attorney, because I would like very much to know it.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I can only give my hon. friend my present impression, which is that the case has not reached the stage where outside counsel would be necessary. I can not say that positively. The hon. gentleman, I think, appreciates the fact that it is not possible for me to walk around with, present to my mind, who the lawyer- is in every particular case in which we may be concerned. I shall be very glad to ascertain the fact. I am now told by the Deputy Minister of Marine that I would be justified in saying positively that no lawyer outside of the department has been retained in connection with the case. I make the statement upon his authority.


Pierre-François Casgrain: What amount has been paid up to date on account of the purchase price of the steamer Champlain, and what is the balance still remaining due on that price.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The price at which this ship was sold was $61,050-$13,000 has been paid in cash, and four notes have been given of which one of $12,000 has been met. There are still unpaid one note for $11,997 and two for $12,000.


Pierre-François Casgrain: When did the sale
take place?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have not the
exact month; it was either July or August, 1920.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Who are the signatories of these notes, and are they responsible persons? Are they persons with whom the contract was made, or other parties?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Gulf of St.
Lawrence Navigation Company, Thomas Harling and one of the Messrs. Clark, I am not sure of his initials.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Was there not a gentleman called Mr. Barnard, of Montreal, who had something to do with the contract that was passed in the guaranteeing of the payment of these notes?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not that I am
aware of.


Pierre-François Casgrain: What interest do these notes bear and has the interest been paid regularly?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: If the hon. gentleman will ask me some other question, so as to enable the business to proceed in the meantime, I will be very glad to let him know about the matter of interest later on.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I will be delighted to do so. Does the minister know that the Gulf of St. Lawrence Navigation Company is now in liquidation?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Quite so.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Is the note signed by the company alone?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I said a moment
ago that it was not only signed by the company but also by Thomas Harling, and one of the Messrs. Clark, I do not know what his initials are.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I think I know this
Mr. Harling. I think he was in Montreal some time ago and that he engaged in the shipping business. I am told also that he did not find his venture in our city a profitable one, and that in the city of Quebec, where he tried to do a little better, his success was not any greater. I do not consider that the Government has any very great guarantee in the signature of Mr..
Harling. This company is in liquidation to-day, and I think I can assure the committee that such a person as Mr. Harling is hardly one to respond to the payment of these notes when they become due.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Would my hon.
friend consider the Gulf Pulp and Paper Company's endorsation good enough to appear on the notes?


Pierre-François Casgrain: This is the first time
I have heard of that name. I, thought by the answers which were given iir the House last year that this steamer was sold to the Gulf of St. Lawrence Navigation Company that is now in liquidation. The notes are signed by this company which is in liquidation, and the endorser, if I understand well, is Mr. Thomas Harling.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: And also the Gulf Pulp & Paper Company. My hon. friend knows very well that this company which is established at Clark Harbour, is tremendously strong financially, so that there is absolutely no risk-at all as long as their endorsement is on the note.


Pierre-François Casgrain: May I ask the minister who are the parties in the Pulp & Paper Navigation Company that endorsed these notes?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Clark Brothers.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Is the note endorsed
by Messrs. Clark Brothers themselves?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is endorsed by the Gulf Pulp Paper Company which is an eminently good concern, as my hon. friend knows.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Continuing further, I
would like to ask the minister when the contract was made between the Government and this company for the purchase of that steamer?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It was made during the month of May last.


Pierre-François Casgrain: In May last? But
when was the endorsation placed on the back of the note by the Gulf Pulp & Paper Company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: You want the
date?


Pierre-François Casgrain: Yes.


Georges Parent: Just lately, was it not?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: On the 5th day of May.


Pierre-François Casgrain: In what year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: In the year 1920.


Pierre-François Casgrain: So, if I understand
well, it was about the same time that the contract with the Government was approved?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: About the same
time.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I would now like to
ask how it is, if this note is signed by two good endorsers-at any rate endorsers that the Government pretend are good-that the matter is in the hands of the Department of Justice for adjustment?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It may ease the
anxiety of my hon. friend about the safety of the Government financially when I say that Clark Brothers have now sold out the Gulf Pulp & Paper Company to Lord North-cliffe. I think my hon. friend will feel satisfied that he is wealthy enough to take care of the obligations.


Pierre-François Casgrain: What are the legal
costs in connection with this matter?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: None.


Pierre-François Casgrain: None at present?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not yet.


John Ewen Sinclair: I want to call the attention of the minister to a promise which he made when he was putting his Estimates through the House last year. On that occasion I urged that there should be-an improvement in the Wages paid to the engineers on the steamer Brant. The minister then made a statement which was quite satisfactory, but apparently the matter has been allowed to drop without having been attended to. At all events I have heard nothing upon the subject lately, and I would like to know from the minister if the matter has been adjusted, and if so, in what way?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I received information with regard to the steamer Brant a day or two ago, and the department is now very carefully considering what shall be done in the way of advancing wages. I do not say that we will advance the wages, but we have the matter under our consideration.


John Ewen Sinclair: Is the minister willing to adhere to the statement which he made in the House last session on this matter?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not recall the circumstances.


John Ewen Sinclair: His statement was that the prevailing rate of wages would be paid.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I think my hon. friend will recollect that a year ago I qualified that statement by announcing that the Government were willing to pay the prevailing rate of wage for a similar sized ship.


John Ewen Sinclair: I might also remind the minister that he qualified his statement still further. He also said that the prevailing rate of wage to be paid would not, in any case, be less than the wage of last year, plus the bonus. With reference to the information which the minister spoke of receiving, would he be good enough to say when he received that information and from whom?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The information
came from Mr. Winchester of the Brant and Mr. Cummings of the National Association of Marine Engineers. I can assure my hon. friend that we will not overlook the matter. I cannot at this moment say just what we will do, but the question is under our consideration and will be dealt with very shortly. As soon as a decision has been reached I will be delighted to let my hon. friend know.


John Ewen Sinclair: I am very
glad to hear the minister speak in such a tone. I regret to have to bring this matter before the committee, but I have been endeavouring to get it settled through the department almost ever since May 5 last. I am glad to know also that the minister is willing to act on the information which he has received from the secretary of the National Association of Marine Engineers in Charlottetown, and the engineers who are interested, namely, the engineers on the Brant. In regard to the prevailing rate of pay I think the officers of the department might have acted with greater promptitude in ascertaining the facts. I would like to know further from the minister if the adjustment made according to the information he has given to the House will date from April 1, 1920, as it should do?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Well, I am not prepared to say that. I think my hon. friend will just have to leave the matter to our generosity. I can assure him we will do the best we can.


John Ewen Sinclair: I am not asking for this readjustment of wages as a

matter of generosity, I ask it as a matter of right. It is something which should have been settled long ago.


Pierre-François Casgrain: The Government do
not bother with small matters, they only bother with millions.


John Ewen Sinclair: However, I am willing to accept the statement of the minister and leave the matter to his own judgment.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Coming back to the matter to which I invited the attention of the committee a few moments ago and referring to this transaction between the Government and the Gulf of St. Lawrence Navigation Company re the sale and disposal of the steamer Champlain. The minister told us that a contract was signed on a certain date, but he did not tell us who signed that contract. Of course, the Government was one party, but who were the parties of the other part?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Gulf of St. Lawrence Shipping and Trading Company, Mr. H. de S. Bosse signed on behalf of that company.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Did any other person connected with the company sign?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: As far as our
knowledge goes it was Mr. Bosse alone.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Would it be possible for the minister to obtain the contract from his two valuable assistants who are helping the committee in disposing of these items? I would like to have a more positive answer in regard to the parties who- signed on behalf of the company. I am informed on good authority that the person who was supposed to. have a controlling interest in the company, who, as we say in French was the bailieur de fonds, was a prominent lawyer in the city of Montreal, Mr. Barnard. I would not say that he went so far as to give a bond or guarantee for the transaction, but I think there is something in the information tendered to me. Would the minister refer to the contract and let us see it?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My hon. friend does not expect me to send it across the floor of the House at this moment?


Pierre-François Casgrain: No.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have not got the contract, but I will be very pleased to forward it to the hon. gentleman.


Pierre-François Casgrain: If the contract was made and signed by Mr. Bosse on behalf of this company, and if notes for the balance were also signed by him on behalf of the company and endorsed by one Thomas Harling, how is it that afterwards this new company, the Gulp Pulp and Paper Company, which was not a party to the contract, endorsed the notes? At whose suggestion did the new company endorse or guarantee the notes, and why?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: These gentlemen were interested in establishing this service with Clarke's harbour.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Do I understand that the steamer Champlain is to run between Quebec and Clarke's harbour, and that it has been transferred to these people?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I could not
answer that.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I understand the Government had in its possession the contract signed by the party who is buying the steamer, and that notes were also given by the company, one for $12,000 and another for $11,000 odd; later a new company came in and endorsed the notes. I would like to know why the Government thought it necessary to require that further endorsation if the company and Mr. Harling were considered sufficiently responsible in the first place?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I know my hon. friend will find no fault with the vigilant officers of the department getting all the endorsements they possibly could in the public interest. That is just what they did. They would have obtained more endorsements had that been possible.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Were these two notes that the minister has been speaking of the first notes, or renewals?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The first notes.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Are they overdue
now?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: One of them has been paid, as I told my hon. friend a few moments ago. The others have not been met, and that is the reason we are referring the matter to the Department of Justice.


Pierre-François Casgrain: What is the amount of the two notes that have not been met?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Twelve thousand dollars each.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Has the Gulf of St. Lawrence Navigation Company, through the liquidator, refused payment of those notes?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Pierre-François Casgrain: On what ground?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The usual ground -that they did not have the money.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Did the Government have recourse to the endorser, Mr. Har-ling, for payment?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The department protested the notes and we are holding Mr. Harling liable along with the Gulf Pulp and Paper Company.


Pierre-François Casgrain: When were the initial protest proceedings taken?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: In the language that legal gentlemen generally use, the notes were duly protested. I cannot give the exact date.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Did the minister ask the Gulf Pulp and Paper Company Limited for payment of those notes?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The notes were put in the bank and they were not met. Thereupon they were protested in the usual way.


Pierre-François Casgrain: A few moments age the minister told us that it was good policy to obtain as many endorsements as possible in connection with these notes; that not only had we the signature of the gulf of St. Lawrence Navigation Company, but also the endorsement of Mr. Harling; then, to obtain further security the department got the Guly Pulp and Paper Company to endorse the notes. Now the minister has taken proceedings against this company. I would like to have some enlightenment from the minister as to the financial backing and capacity to pay of this Gulf Pulp and Paper Company Limited.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: From what information I have been able to give my hon. friend and the fact that we have a mortgage on the ship, I do not think we need worry about the Government getting the full price. My hon. friend knows very well that the Gulf Pulp and Paper Company is owned by Lord Northcliffe and is thoroughly sound; he also knows that Thomas Harling is fairly good; and with a mortgage on the ship besides that, why should any one worry?


Pierre-François Casgrain: It is all very well to have the names of such big companies as

the Gulf Pulp and Paper Company, controlled by Lord Northcliffe, and Clark Brothers, but I have known many big corporations that were reputed to be very strong financially, but which sooner or later we discovered were far from being what they were supposed to be. The minister tells us that we have a mortgage on the ship, but this ship is in the hands of other persons to-day, and therefore the Government has no control over it, and should the ship meet with disaster no one knows what position the Government would be in in regard to their security. If the Gulf Pulp and Paper Company is so good and is controlled by Lord Northcliffe, I would sooner that the minister would apply immediately to that company and to the Clark Company for payment of these notes.


Georges Parent: I want to refer again to the "Druid, Mr. Chairman. Have any tenders been asked for the expenditure of $46,000 in repairs on that particular shiv


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Such work as was not done by our own workmen was carried out by tender.


Georges Parent: Where was the work performed and how long did it take the department to spend $46,000 on that ship?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The work was
done by the Davies, but I cannot tell my hon. friend the number of days or hours that they took.


Georges Parent: Does the hon. minister
know how much was done by tender and how much without tender?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I cannot inform
the hon. gentleman just how much was done by the department and how much by tender. I shall have to get the information for him.


Pierre-François Casgrain: 
Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: If my hon. friend will allow me, the Department of Marine and Fisheries has not treated him quite so badly as all that. The information has just been handed to me that the depart-

ment instructed Captain Bloise of the Stanley to pick out four men to go to the assistance of the Marie-Lydia which is reported off the Magdalen Islands. It does not give the hours at which she pas-Captain Dumont, the owner, has been so advised. So my hon. friend will admit, I think, that the department has paid the attention we always do pay in such cases.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I am glad to get that information from the hon. minister. When was that done? This letter is dated March 1.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: To-day, at 11
o'clock.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Well, I hope that
those people have been rescued and have received assistance from the department. But I would point out that a long time has elapsed since I received the letter.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Before the item carries, I would like to call the minister's attention to something that has occurred in the past few months in the city of Quebec. Now, in accordance with the consideration which the Minister of Marine always gives to the labouring classes, and particularly to the unemployed labouring classes, the statement has been made that these ships were constructed in accordance with a programme which was simply carried out in order to afford employment, in view of the serious unemployment situation in Quebec, I applied to the minister to carry on the repairs of ships early in the beginning of the winter in order that the unemployment situation, which is undoubtedly very acute at that season of the year, might be relieved, and in order that the work would not have to be carried on late in the spring, thus delaying navigation. In that connection I wrote to the minister calling attention to the fact that the unemployment situation was acute in Quebec, and that the department had a large number of vessels which it intended to winter in Quebec, and asking that if possible orders should be given for the repairs to be carried on during the early part of the winter. I suggested that by taking this course, employment would be given to a large number of workmen at a period when work was difficult to obtain. This was on November 30, 1920. I thought it was a reasonable request to make of the minister. If ever there was an emergency in a small way, it was during that period, and had the minister acceded to my request it would not have involved the expenditure of one single extra cent to the department, the 
money would simply have been expended at a period of the year when it would have done the most good. I might say that at the present time these repairs are not made and that for well over a week, or I might say two weeks, or perhaps three weeks, navigation has been opened from the port of Quebec. I not only wrote to the minister on November 30, but I wrote him again. In answer to my letter of November 30, I received a letter on December 13, the minister, I might say, is apparently a very busy man, and takes a long time to answer letters, when he answers them at all. In his reply he stated that as soon as these ships were placed in winter quarters, they would be gone over in order to ascertain what repairs were required. On December 17, I again called his attention to the fact that the ships were in their winter quarters and that the repairs would give employment to 70 or 100 men for some six weeks, at a period of the year when it would be of very great assistance to the workman. To this the minister did not reply. On Dececmber 24 I received a letter from the secretary of the department acknowledging the receipt of my letter and stating that reports were expected from the inspectors. At that time a large number of people in Quebec city were literally starving, being unable to obtain employment. I corresponded with the inspector and was told that the inspection was completed, and that the ships were ready to have the repairs undertaken. At the same time a mass meeting of unemployed was held in Quebec, at which resolutions were passed stating that
Whereas it is the announced policy of the Government to in as far as possible carry on Public Works in order to alleviate the present acute unemployment situation;
Whereas There are in the Port of Quebec a large number of Government vessels which need overhauling and repairing;	.
Be it resolved that this meeting requests the Right Honourable Arthur Meighen, Prime Minister, and the Honourable C. C. Ballantyne, Minister of Marine and Fisheries, to immediately proceed with the work of refitting and repairing these vessels as a Government undertaking and not by contract;
That the work be begun at once in order that insofar as possible the worst season of the year, which is the present, may be passed over without undue suffering or hardship to the labouring classes of the City.
Copies of these resolutions were sent to the Prime Minister, the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and the members representing the districts surrounding Quebec. But no answer was received. On January 10,

not having received any answer to these representations, I telegraphed to the minister:
With reference to previous correspondence, department vessels wintering in Quebec. Important that decision to carry out repairs be carried out at once. Kindly reply.
Charles G. Power, M.P.
To this the minister replied:
Our inpectors are now working on specifications, for repairs to vessels wintering Louise Basin, and will arrange put work in hand as soon as possible.
That was a month and a half afterwards. On January 26, having been given to understand from the Fisheries Department that preparations were completed, I wired to the minister as follows:
Re repairs to vessels Louise Basin. Understand all preparations made but no authority received here to employ labour. Could this not be given at once?
On the same day, January 26, the deputy minister replied:
Agent has been authorized to take on extra men required for repairs to vessel Louise Basin.
I might say that these extra men were three men and one boy. I stated in another telegram on January 27:
Authority given departement to employ labour for only one vessel. What about other vessels?
I received a reply that repairs were being carried out by the department, and that any additional help necessary would be taken on. I carried on this correspondence for a week or ten days, and the situation in Quebec became more and more acute. The vessels were lying there, all preparations apparently had been made for the repairs, and yet, for no reason I have been able to fathom, the repairs had not been undertaken. I sent numerous telegrams to which I received no answer until on February 3, I received a telegram from the minister's private secretary:
Your telegram February second received and will he submitted to hon. Mr. Ballantyne on his return to city next week.
Now, Sir, I have carried on correspondence with the deputy minister and with the minister, and one or the other invariably answered. But this time the private secretary refused to answer and stated that the minister would not return "until the next week." That, I may say, was during the famous Peterborough election. I suspected that the minister was busy, and I sent the following telegram to the minister's secretary:
Your telegram of February third-why not relay mine to the minister?
That would have been the logical thing for the secretary to do. I have no doubt, even if the minister were engrossed in his electoral labours, he could have had time to answer the telegram and to give instructions to have this work done. Anyway, the sum and substance of it all is this: That I repeatedly, as representative of an important constituency in the city of Quebec,
[DOT]-called upon the minister to do this work, asked him to do something which would not involve the expenditure of one single extra cent to the country, which, on the contrary, would possibly have saved some money to the Government,-which would have been a considerable utility to my constituency and the city of Quebec and the district in general,-which would have been a charitable act on the part of the Government since a large number of those who were seeking work had not been able to obtain employment since navigation closed; yet, in spite of all these appeals, and appeals made by the mayor and other people of the city, almost nothing was done during the whole winter. The work is now being carried on when a large number of people can find employment elsewhere, and it is not so necessary. I have called the minister's attention to this, because I am under the impression-and I warn him now, because next winter will be probably as hard as last winter and perhaps more so-that it will be a matter of policy for his department to have these repairs carried out at a season of the year when the workingmen need help from the Government in the worst way. It was the announced policy of the Government last autumn to carry on public works so far as possible, in order to relieve the situation. I would ask the minister, not only to make a promise and announce a policy, but as a matter of fact, to carry out that policy, and next winter, when the same situation or a worse situation arises, to take care that these necessary works shall be carried on?


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: May I ask the hon.
minister why an increase of $450,000 has been made in these Estimates?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That increase is
principally for fuel labour, and repairs to ships.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: May I ask what
proportion of that amount is supposed to be spent in actual repairs?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The following
ships will be repaired at Quebec:	The

Druid, the Lady Grey, the Montcalm, and the Rouville.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: What is the amount of repairs on those ships?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The repairs to
hulls and engine of the Druid are estimated at $25,800; the Lady Grey $30,000; Montcalm $40,000 and Rouville $15,000.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: I understand the
Government boat gives a service from the Island to Quebec during the period of non-navigation-that is after the close of navigation. Can- the hon. minister tell me if that is correct?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Our icebreaker
runs to the island of Orleans and also to Quebec bridge.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: I would remind the hon. minister that every year there appears to be^ great difficulty in making the service, and it is only after a few days or weeks that we can manage to get the boat to make the service. I would like to have the department arrange for a service at the close of navigation next autumn, so as to give those people on the island communication with the city.


Charles Joseph Doherty: We have now been
over an hour-


Hon. MEMBERS:: Carried, carried.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I think that the hon. member for Quebec West (Mr. Parent) showed the proper appreciation when he expressed the view that it was time this item was disposed of. We have been over an hour on the item. I think it is no reflection on the hon. gentleman to say that the course of the discussion indicates that there is no very important question which ought to be raised now, and, even if we postpone now, or propose to move the further consideration of this question, if there is anything really important there will be, within the rules, an opportunity to bring it up. I beg to move that the further consideration-


Louis Philippe Demers: Carried, carried.


John Howard Sinclair: We are not wasting our time in getting this information. The hour was well spent. This is a large item,-million and three-quarters,-and when we remember that this department has increased enormously-


Charles Joseph Doherty: Either the item is carried or not carried; if it is not carried my motion before the Chair is not debatable; 
so that in either event the hon. gentleman is out of order.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Investigation into wrecks, $12,300.
Ernest Lapointe: I suppose this item is debatable. I wish to make my position clear. Although I was quite willing, as far as I was concerned, to let the other item be carried, I do not think we deserved the lecture given us by the hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Doherty), as to having spent too much time on the two preceding items. Those items were very important, asking for a large amount of money, and it was certainly the right of the Opposition to discuss them, and we have not trespassed upon our right in taking one hour to discuss it, and ask for information in regard to it.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I did not say too much I said enough.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Might I ask the hon.
minister how many minutes we will be allowed on this item?


An hon. MEMBER:: One hour.


Georges Parent: Will the hon. minister say how many investigations into wrecks have taken place in the last year? I want to know all the names of the ships in regard to which investigations were held, and by whom the investigations were made.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My hon. friend
will not make much headway by asking all the names and that sort of thing. I am only too willing to give the information, but I think we ought to try to get along with the business in a friendly way, instead of hon. members endeavouring to embarrass the minister by asking him to read out a number of unnecessary' names.


Georges Parent: I do not think I can be charged with asking unnecessary questions. On another item I wanted to discuss some matters, but I was prevented by the Minister of Justice by a motion which he moved.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have given the hon. gentleman the information that there were 34 wrecks, and while I am perfectly willing to give the names, I cannot see what useful purpose would be served by doing so.


Georges Parent: My object in asking by whom the investigations were held is that it has come to my knowledge that some of the parties in charge of the investigations

cannot understand the French language, and when they had to try captains and pilots, these men were not in a position to give the evidence they wanted because they did not understand English. I call the matter to the attention of the minister, so that steps may be taken to have those who sit on these tribunals understand both languages, in order that justice may be done.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Can the hon. member cite one case in which the wreck commissioner or his assistants did not understand French?


Georges Parent: If they do understand French, that settles the case.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Mr. Demers is the name of the wreck commissioner.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Expenses of schools of navigation, $8,000.
Ernest Lapointe: Where are the schools of navigation?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Halifax, Yarmouth, North Sydney, St. John, N.B., Quebec, Kingston, Collingwood and Vancouver.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: How long has the school at Quebec been established?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: About eight years.


Georges Parent: Who is in charge?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Captain Napoleon Lachance.


Georges Parent: Is he a pilot?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: He used to be.


John Howard Sinclair: This looks like a very small item to carry on all the navigation schools in the Dominion of Canada. There has been for a few years an application for a navigation school at Canso, and my hon. friend has not yet taken any steps in that direction. I would like to place the matter before him again, because this is, as he knows, an important point. It is the greatest fishing point in the Dominion, and a large number of young sailors are brought up there. Some years ago something was done by the department in the way of establishing a navigation school at Canso but the project was abandoned and nothing has been done of late. It looks as if we are going to be a maritime country, and if we are to be able to navigate even my hon. friend's ships, we must pay a little more attention to the training of sailors and officers, and $8,000 for this purpose for the whole of Canada seems a very small amount when such large
amounts are spent in other directions. The education of our seamen is very important, and I should like the minister to take note of the fact that this application of Canso is especially important for my constituency.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I shall be glad to look into the matter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Removal of obstructions in navigable waters, $18,000.
John Ewen Sinclair: (Guysborough) : What is the reason for increasing this item by $13,000?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: A serious wreck occurred at Port Weller, the entrance to the new Welland canal, and it has to be removed.


John Wesley Edwards: In this connection I
should like to call the minister's attention to a wreck at the entrance to what is called Collins' bay. Several years ago I took this matter up with- the Hon. Mr. Hazen, and I regret to say that I did not make much progress. This is a case of an old vessel that was brought up from Kingston, and the owner of it apparently thought that was a very good place to drop it and leave it. It was left there as an old derelict, and some persons set fire to it. It was burned down to the water's edge, and the rest of it has remained there ever since, although the owner, Captain Donnelly, has been asked on several occasions to remove it. This wreck lies just a few inches below the surface of the water, and I know of one case where a pleasure yacht running into the bay ran up on this wreck. Inasmuch as the water in this bay is deep and vessels are apt, in case of a sudden storm arising, to run in there for shelter and this wreck is right at the entrance, steps should be taken to remove it or to compel Captain Donnelly, who, by the way, is manager and owner of the Donnelly Wrecking Company, to remove his old wreck out of this bay. I have taken this matter up with the Department of Public Works, and I am drawing it to the attention of the minister (Mr. Ballantyne) because it seems to come properly under this item. The order that was given by Mr. Hazen to remove the wreck should have been put into effect, and Captain Donnelly should have been made to remove it.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This is the first
time that I have heard of the matter. I am glad that the hon. member has brought it to my attention, and one of my assistants has made a note of it.


Charles Murphy: A few minutes ago the minister referred to the fact that the greater part of this appropriation was for the removal of a wreck at the entrance of the Welland canal. Is this a steamer, and by whom is it owned?


Robert Hamilton Butts: Would it not be well for
the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) as well as the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Ballantyne) to look a little further into the law of marine insurance and see if the marine insurance company is not the one which should remove the wreck?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: In answer to the hon. member for Russell (Mr. Murphy) I might say that the Muriel W. is the name of the vessel, and it is owned by Senator Webster, of Montreal. It is one of those large wooden hull ships.


Charles Murphy: Was she engaged in
private business, or was she chartered by the Government at the time of the wreck?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Private business.
She was caught in a storm and became wrecked.


John Howard Sinclair: As I understand the law, if a ship sinks and obstructs navigation, the duty of removing the wreck is not necessarily that of the Government, but that of the owner. Have any further efforts been made to get the owner of the wreck to remove this obstruction?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. member is quite right. The owner of the ship should see to it that this wreck is removed. We are taking the matter up and intend to charge the owner for whatever expense may be incurred in connection with the removal.


Charles Murphy: I hope there is no question but that the private owner of this wreck will be made to reimburse the Government for the cost of removing it.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes, we will do the best we can.


Charles Murphy: The minister says he will do the best he can, but I am not satisfied with that statement. I want an assurance that the hon. Senator Webster will be made to pay the cost of removing that wreck.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My colleague, the Minister of Justice, advises me that we have a good legal claim against the owner, and therefore we will see that he does pay the cost.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

To continue subsidies for wrecking plants- Quebec and British Columbia-$35,000
John Howard Sinclair: We
ought to have some explanation of this item?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This is an old item that has been voted every year while I have been Minister of Marine. The amount of subsidy paid to the Quebec Salvage & Wrecking Company, Limited is $25,000, and to the Pacific Salvage Company, Limited, $10,000. As far as the former company is concerned I notice that the contractors are required to pay to the Government fifty per cent of the amount of such excess which is over the rate of interest at 51 per cent on a capital of $150,000.


John Howard Sinclair: The committee would like to know whether the Quebec Salvage & Wrecking Company rendered any service during the past year for the $25,000 they received. These subsidies are very apt to be continued from year to year without any investigation as to whether the company receiving the money are rendering service or not.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I will be very glad to get a statement -for the hon. member. I do not recall any serious wrecks in the river St. Lawrence, down the Gulf, or on the Pacific Coast, but in the interest of navigation the Government has always thought it wise to have these wrecking plants available. I will take a note and have the information which the hon. gentlemen or placed in his hands to-morrow.


John Howard Sinclair: Is there any return from these companies showing the service they performed during the year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes, there is an annual return. I will see that the return for the past year is mailed to the hon. gentleman or placed in his hands to-morrow.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Life saving Service including rewards for saving life-$90,000
Alexander William Chisholm: Does this vote deal
with the life saving stations?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes. The life
saving stations have now been transferred from the naval service to the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


Alexander William Chisholm: I notice that the minister has closed several of these stations. I want to know where those that have

survived his destructive tendencies are located?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: In the province of Nova Scotia-Baker's Cove, Bay View, -Blanche, Canso, Clark's Harbour, Devil's Island, Duncan Cove, Herring Cove, Sea-tari, Seal Island, and Westport; and the cost to the Government is $18,000. I have given orders to close up as many of these life saving stations as could be closed without running any risk of jeopardizing human life.


Alexander William Chisholm: I am not going to discuss this question at all. I merely wish to say that I have had correspondence with the minister with regard to the Cheti-camp station which was opened in 1911. It was unworthy of the minister and of his department to have closed that station, because it is the only contribution to the fishing industry in my constituency that I can credit the minister with. The only thing I wish to say now is that Ii am going to ask the minister to he good enough to leave the buildings there and not to sell them. I am sure the minister is convinced by this time that we are going to have a change of Government, and just as soon as that change comes we will see that this station is restored to its former status-


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not for a while yet.


Alexander William Chisholm: -and that the minister's destructive operations will be corrected by the successors of the present Government.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am not in a combative mood this afternoon, and therefore the only thing I will say to my hon. friend is, that he will have to wait for quite a few years before his hopes are realized.


Alexander William Chisholm: We will see; the
people will decide that question.


John Howard Sinclair: In
former years there was a life-saving station at Whitehead in the county of Guysborough. Has it been closed?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That has been closed also, I think. I may say, quite frankly, that when I became minister I found that a great many of these stations were really political life-saving stations and nothing more. I therefore felt it to be my duty in the public interest to close them up.


John Howard Sinclair: I want to say to my hon. friend that Whitehead is a very dangerous point on the coast where a good many wrecks occur. The station that was located there was doing very good work, and on very many occasions not only vessels but human lives have been saved by the efforts of the crew. Now as far as politics is concerned the moment my hon. friends opposite got into power they dismissed the crew. The men had been trained for some years in their duties, and had done good work; but within two or three weeks after the election of 1911 the crew were all dismissed, and a man who was not residing at Whitehead, but lived at the time in the town of New Glasgow, although he was a former Whitehead resident, was made captain of the crew.


Alexander William Chisholm: That was not politics, though.


John Howard Sinclair: That is what happened. The new crew, of course, were not as good as the former men. I wish the minister would take note of the fact as to whether that station at Whitehead has been done away with, because, as I say, it is a very important point on the coast, and the station ought to have been continued.


John Wesley Edwards: I would like to ask if the minister has received any request for the establishment of a life-saving station on the islands called Main Ducks, in the lower end of lake Ontario near Kingston, and if so, whether, the matter has received any consideration from his department?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The matter is
now receiving the attention of the department.


Mr. LEGER:: Is it the intention of the department to re-open the life saving station at Richibucto?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am sorry that I cannot give any encouragement to my hon. friend that it will be re-opened.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
River St. Lawrence ship channel-Maintenance and operating dredging fleet, 5528,000.
Ernest Lapointe: Will the minister explain the reason for the increase?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The $50,000 increase is largely due to repairs to the dredging fleet.


Georges Parent: Are all the dredges employed on that part of the river the property of the Government?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Georges Parent: Are any contracts given at all to private individuals?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: None.


Georges Parent: Between what points
was the main part of the money spent?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Principally in the Cap a la Roche region between Montreal and Quebec, and also in the North Channel, below Quebec.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Last year when these Estimates were before the committee I asked the minister about certain dredging that ought to be done in the county of Charlevoix at Riviere St. Francois in the Baie St. Paul district. The approaches to the land are not very good, there being many rocks which make it very inconvenient to the people who travel from Quebec and Murray Bay to the various ports in that locality. If the Government would send one of their dredges to that district for a few days it would help the people a good deal. Last year the hon. minister promised to take the matter under consideration, but nothing has been done.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It has not been done by the Department of Marine simply because the matter comes under the control of my colleague, the Minister of Public Works.


Georges Parent: Can the minister give the committee a statement as to the depth of the channel at the present time?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have a 30-foot channel, at low water, as my hon. friend probably knows, from Montreal to the sea. Some of the curves are 500 feet in width, and others as much as 1,100 feet. The dreding, of course, is going on constantly, but where prior to the war we had nine dredges operating, now we have only three. If I can get enough money from my colleague the Minister of Finance we may possibly put on another dredge.


Georges Parent: Was there not a time when the channel even so far as Three Rivers was 35 feet deep? Since then that depth has been gradually reduced to the extent just stated by my hon. friend.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: So far as I know the channel has not yet been dredged to a depth of 35 feet.


John Howard Sinclair: Is the river getting any deeper on account of this dredging?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am quite sure my hon. friend has travelled between Montreal and Quebec and from Quebec to the sea. The channel is so well lighted and buoyed that one might think one was going down a city street.


Georges Parent: The White Way of Ottawa.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We are almost
free of wrecks. When the dredging is done the channel does not refill, but it is a big contract to keep it open to the depth and width we think it ought to be. I suppose the dredging will go on as long as we live.


Georges Parent: Does it re-fill?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.


John Howard Sinclair: I do not think the minister quite understood my question. Are we simply dredging out the mud that comes in during the year, or are we deepening the channel year by year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes, the channel is getting deeper and wider every year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For the maintenance and improvements of the Sorel shipyard, shops and offices as well as operating expenses, $75,000.
John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister explain the ^increase?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: , The $10,000 increase is for the maintenance of the shipyard wherever it has become in a bad state of repair.


Mr. NESBITT:: Is that the yard where the minister repairs his dredges and so forth?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide an icebreaker to be used in St. Lawrence river, including maintenance of same (revote), $2,000,000.
Georges Parent: Will the minister explain?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This was voted
last session, but when my department called for public tenders I was surprised and disappointed to find the lowest tender was $2,220,000.


Georges Parent: Wherefrom?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: From the Wallace Shipbuilding company, of North Vancouver.

199S


Pierre-François Casgrain: Come east-the tenders will be lower.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That tender was
more than double the cost of a similar icebreaker called the J. D. Hazen, built in 1912 and 1913 for less than $1,000,000. I did not think I was justified in letting a contract for more than double that amount. Therefore we rejected all the tenders. I am asking for a re-vote, and now that material and labour are coming down I hope we may be able to get tenders somewhat closer to 1912 prices. I am sure all hon. gentlemen, especially those from the province of Quebec, will recognize how necessary it is to have a very powerful icebreaker. Both the Montcalm and the Lady Grey are very old icebreakers. In 1919 the Canadian Spinner and the Canadian Recruit were both caught in the ice, and had the department an icebreaker similar to the one intended to be covered by this re-vote we would have had no difficulty at all in releasing both those vessels. It is of the highest importance in the interest of navigation that we should have an icebreaker of this type, as she will enable us to keep the channel open later in the winter and to clear it earlier in the spring.


Georges Parent: With such a powerful
vessel, has the minister in mind to keep navigation open all the year round from Quebec to the sea?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I would not like
to be so ambitious as that, but we will be able to keep the channel open later in the winter and clear it earlier in the spring. If any ship should be caught in the ice, we will be able, with such a powerful icebreaker, to release her.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: What was the original
cost of the Champlain? I see that she was sold last year for $61,000.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The cost was


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I find that during the
year the department spent $46,000 on repairs to tha^ icebreaker. Was that amount spent after the sale had been made to the Gulf Pulp and Paper Company, owned by Lord Northcliffe?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, I have just been informed by my deputy that no money was spent on the repairs of the Champlain by us. I do not know what the company did after purchasing the ship, which was very old. The Government has not
used her for a number of years, and we think that the price we got was a very good one.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: According to the minister, it was a fairly good price, that is, if he obtains payment. I understand that the minister has received one payment on account of this icebreaker, the Champlain, and also holds two notes that have been endorsed by a firm which is considered excellent security for the amounts of those notes. But the notes have been protested. I would like to know, if I am in order, why it is that these notes, endorsed by a good endorser, have not been collected by the Government.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am afraid that my hon. friend is a little out of order. I do not know whether he was in the House when the hon. member for Charlevoix-Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) and the hon. member for Quebec West (Mr. Parent) discussed this matter for half an hour or so. We are now on an entirely different item, to provide an icebreaker for the St. Lawrence river. The Champlain item was passed some time ago.


Isaac Ellis Pedlow: I appreciate* that position, but we are discussing the purchase of a new icebreaker. My first question was as to why the Government was buying this new icebreaker and selling the old one. The question follows as to the disposition of the icebreaker. If I am not in order, I would like to know.


Georges Henri Boivin: I fear that the hon. member is not in order. The Chairman has always endeavoured to allow the widest possible discussion on any item, but believes such discussion should be limited to the most appropriate item. In this particular instance, the matter has already been discussed for some time, as was pointed out by the hon. minister. It relates to item 205, and not to the item now under consideration. By a series of questions my hon. friend could lead up to the formation of the company which signed the notes, and that would certainly not be in order.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Would the minister inform me how long the period of navigation from Quebec, and also from Montreal, extends?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That depends altogether on the weather conditions. For instance, the opening of navigation this year from the port of Montreal was tka



earliest for some fifty odd years, the first river boat having arrived at the port of Montreal somewhere around March 28 or 29. Below Quebec, owing to the very mild and favourable winter, navigation is quite open also. But as a general rule navigation closes at the port of Montreal about November 25 or 26, and opens anywhere from April 25 to 30. As the port of Montreal opens and closes, so does the port of Quebec.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: To what extent would this period be extended by the operation of the icebreaker which the hon. minister is proposing to build?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We hope to keep navigation open two weeks longer. We have not an icebreaker that can go through any considerable thickness of ice, and it is very necessary to have such an icebreaker. But I want hon. members to understand that unless we get a tender much lower than the one for $2,000,000 I shall not place the order.


Georges Parent: I think that if the hon. minister had been frank he would have told the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Crerar) that the port of Quebec is generally open about fifteen days earlier than the port of Montreal.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Quite so.


Georges Parent: And in that connection, if he had used the ships which are lying idle at Halifax, and sent them to Quebec we would have been doing business fifteen days earlier. .


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: When I made the statement in reply to the hon. member for Marquette, I meant ships bound to Montreal only. I quite realize that the port of Quebec is open nearly all the year round.


Pierre-François Casgrain: So is the port of Murray Bay.


William Stevens Fielding: As this is the only
item I see for the construction of new icebreakers, I think I am in order if I again draw the attention of the minister to the desirability of the department having a better equipment ,for dealing with the occasional closing of the harbours on the south coast of Nova Scotia. I do not mean that there should be a two-million-dollar icebreaker for that purpose. But occasionally, in very sharp weather, some of the largest harbours are closed, and it has been found necessary to have some equipment to open them. I must do the minister the just-
[Mr. Ballantvne. 1
ice of saying that in every instance when the matter has been brought to the notice of the department, he has made the best use possible of the available ships, and has met the difficulty as best he could. But in other instances, we have found an inadequate equipment for that purpose. I do not propose that a powerful, expensive icebreaker should be equipped, but some vessel adapted for general service should be made sufficiently powerful to be used in that service in the winter, a vessel that would not be laid up in the summer, but would be useful all the year round, and would have sufficient power for that service when the occasional closing of those harbours occurred. I would ask the minister to keep that in mind.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I would be only
too happy to do so. We were able to open the harbour of Shelburne twice this spring with the Lady Laurier, and we hope to be able to do so next spring.


John Howard Sinclair: I would like to be assured by the minister that when this contract is let, public tenders will be called for.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Oh, yes; I mentioned just a few moments ago that public tenders had been called for, and I thought my hon. friend was arising to compliment me upon not placing the order with the lowest tenderer because the department considered the price too high. I can assure my hon. friend that not only will tenders be called for, but that unless they are very much below $2,000,000, the Government would not feel justified in placing the contract.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lighthouse and coast service-agencies, rents and contingencies, $215,000.
Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The increase of
$17,000 is explained solely by an increase in the salaries granted by the Civil Service Commission.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Salaries and allowances to lighthouse keepers, $650,000.
Auguste Théophile Léger: I would like to draw the
attention of the Government again to the remuneration of the lightkeepers. At the last session of Parliament I called the attention of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to the matter, particularly to the nemuneration paid to part time employees, and we were told at that time that the $60,000, then being voted, was to increase

the salaries. I understand that their salaries have been increased to the extent of from $10 to $20 per annum, which is a very small increase. The range of salaries under the present Civil Service classification is from $210 to $270. The lightkeeper who was paid $250 in 1919 has had his salary increased by $20, which makes his salary for 1920,	$270.
In some other classes there have been larger increases of salary and in view of the fact that the salaries of these men are very low, that there has only been an increase of from $10 to $30 since 1911 whereas the cost of living has increased in that time 150 per cent, and that the judges required an increase in salary by reason of the increase in the cost of living there is cause ' for protest on the part of these men. In this particular instance, we have a large class of public servants, who perform duties for which they are deserving of great credit, and on their behalf, from a reasonable point of view, I do appeal to the Government to be more considerate towards these public servants, and to allow these hard-working employees sufficient compensation to provide properly for the support of their families. I therefore hope that this question will be taken into consideration by the Government and that justice will be done to the lighthouse keepers of Canada by increasing their salaries to such an extent that will be able to make a living, anyway, for the time for which they are employed.


John Wesley Edwards: We have not very many lighthouse keepers in my part of the country, but there are a few, and I have felt for a long time that these men have not received the consideration that is due them in the matter of salary. I merely rise to give general endorsation to the remarks of my hon. friend who has just taken his seat.
Mr. J. E. S. E. D'ANJOU (Rimouski) : (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, I would like to say a few words in support of the request which my hon. friend from Kent (Mr. Leger) has just made. The hon. Minister of Marine has referred to an increase of this item, an increase which is due to the re-classification of the Civil Service, and I desire to call the minister's attention to the necessity of an increase of salary for lighthouse-keepers.
. Mr. Chairman, there is not in the Civil Service, a class which, in my opinion, is so poorly paid than that of the lighthouse-keepers. Such increases as have been
126J
granted by this department have not been adequate to the present high cost of living. Most of the lighthouse-keepers could not make a living, were it not for their large families, for their sons who are able to work and support them. I hope, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister of Marine will take my request into consideration and that he will make sure that these lighthouse-keepers are not ignored.


Mr. P. CASGRAIN (Montmorency-Charlevoix) :: (Translation.) Mr. Chairman, I wish to second the request made by the hon. member from Rimouski (Mr. d'Anjou) as to an increase of salary for the lighthouse-keepers. There are several in the country of Charlevoix-Montmorency. I do not think the Government should hesitate in granting a small increase of salary to those poor lighthouse-keepers who have so much to suffer during the winter and spring seasons.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Marine to do something for this part of my county which is known as the river St. Francis. I have asked him to place an icebreaker there so that there would be an easier access to the port. This place is situated in a bay which explains the difficulty of reaching it. They are also obliged to keep lights at a high cost during the fall and the spring. I would ask the Government if it would not be possible to place a lighthouse there. If this were done, and it would not cost much, I think it might prove satisfactory to the Government.
Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to make any opposition, this is not the time, but I say that if the Government would accede to my request, I am sure that they would do well in erecting this lighthouse, it would be of such advantage to the county of Charlevoix-Montmorency which I have the honour to represent.	.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have listened very sympathetically to what hon. members have said about the low salaries that are paid to lighthouse keepers. The matter of the reclassification of lighthouse keepers, is in the hands of the Civil Service Commission, and I see that a sum of $40,000 has been added to the Estimates for the year 1920-21. That is all we will be able to do this year, but I am heartily in sympathy with what hon. members have said about the inadequacy of the remuneration to these lighthouse keepers. In regard to the light that my hon. friends wants, I will not put the "light in the window"

for him, but I will do my very best to see that it is placed on the wharf, and I hope it will guide him in the right direction.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maintenance and repairs to lighthouse. $800,000.
Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Might I ask if this item includes repairs and light?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes, it does; this is for all the lighthouses and all the lightships and the amount is just the same as last year.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Might I ask how many lights belonging to the St. Lawrence South [DOT]district were repaired during the last winter, and where they were repaired?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There were four repaired at Quebec and one at Halifax.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Were any repaired at
Sorel?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, none.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Might I ask how much of this item is for maintenance and how much for repairs?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My hon. friend will recognize that that would be pretty difficult to answer, depending altogether on the wear and tear and the condition that the lighthouses would be in. One year the maintenance might be more and another year the repairs might be Idss. It is rather too difficult a question to answer.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: What destinction does the minister make between " maintenance" and " repairs?"


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: About half and half.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Really, the " maintenance" is " repairs."


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: What actual expenditure is covered by the "maintenance?"


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The principal
charge is for oil, for fuel and for light.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Where is the oil purchased?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have a War Purchasing Commission, and they make the purchase.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Does not the minister at Ottawa have his engineer make a report to him as to what repairs are necessary?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.
[Mr. BaManytna.)


Arthur Bliss Copp: The minister made his general answer, " half and half."


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have not the engineer's report, but of course, before this amount is placed in the Estimates we will have a more detailed report.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Construction of Lights and Aids to Navigation, including regulation of traffic in the Detroit river and such other places as may be neces-' sary, $400,000.
Georges Parent: May I ask the hon. minister to whom aids to navigation have been granted? Are they to private companies or individuals?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This item is for lights and buoys. ,


Georges Parent: And aids to navigation.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That is the same thing.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Where are the lights and buoys constructed?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am informed
these buoys are constructed at different points in the Dominion of Canada, depending on where they are going to be placed, and who is the lowest tenderer,


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: Where are the buoys desired to be placed on the Atlantic coast constructed?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Most of them are made by the Robb Engineering Company, at Amherst, and some are made at Sorel.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: By whom?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: By the Government shipyards.


William Stevens Fielding: There was a lightship at Barrington passage which outlived its usefulness. What is the minister doing about it?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have placed a gas buoy tnere.


William Stevens Fielding: It is not intended to renew the lightship.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Not at the present time.


Ernest Lapointe: What is meant by "regulation of traffic in the Detroit river?"


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There is an international channel in the Detroit river, and the Canadian Government has an agreement with the American Government. We take care of one side of the channel and the

American Government takes care of the other.


Alexander William Chisholm: This is for the construction of new lights and lighthouses?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Alexander William Chisholm: The last two years
I have been endeavouring to get the Government to build a small range light at Grande Etang. They assured me that this would be attended to., and I have some correspondence in my room where the officers of the Department inform me the work was to be undertaken "immediately." Well, "immediately" is quite a distance away.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We would have
put that light there before, but the department has been hard-up the last year or two. Our expenditures have been cut, but, as my hon. friend thinks we have not done what we should, I shall make a special inquiry about it and see what we can do.
_ Mr. CHISHOLM:	The hon. gentleman
is very kind. I got the same promise last year. My difficulty is this. I am always anxious to protect the Government. I told my people that such work was going to be undertaken, that the Government has provided the necessary money, and I gave them the assurance that it would be undertaken.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I assure my hon.
friend in all seriousness that we will put the light there if we can. Note has been taken of it, and it will come before the Lighthouse Board, and afterwards before me.


John Howard Sinclair: I find
an item in the report of the Auditor General that a considerable sum of money out of this vote was paid to D. D. Swan, of Montreal, for services as consulting engineer, Victoria Harbour, B.C. This gentleman received payment at the rate of $75 a day. It struck me as a large figure to pay for consultations which appeared to last for fifty-five days. I should like to know the necessity for this large payment out of this fund. It does not seem strictly connected with the maintenance of lights.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Well, it comes
under the vote, Lighthouse and Coast Service. What we really employed Mr. Swan for was to send him out to Vancouver and look over the situation and make a complete detailed recommendation to the Department of Marine as to what developments should be provided for that most important port; and, not having any vote that we could
charge it to, we thought it very properly came under Lighthouse and Coast Service, as expansion and development of navigation.


John Howard Sinclair: Is that a usual charge?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is the usual
charge for a marine engineer of Mr. Swan's type. He is the best harbour and marine engineer we have in this country. The Montreal Harbour Commissioners Board brought him out from England ten or twelve years ago to carry out the large improvements that were undertaken at that time at the Port of Montreal, and I understand it is the usual charge for a man of his ability and skill.
At Six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at Eight o'clock.
lighthouse and coast service-single service, $75,000.


Charles Murphy: Will the minister explain the increase?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This increase of $10,000 is principally to cover increased telephone charges.


William Stevens Fielding: What is comprised in this item?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Signal service
stations have been established to report movements of ships by means of wireless telegraphy, telegraph and telephone signals, the system extending from St. John, New Brunswick, to Halifax and Cape Race.


John Howard Sinclair: Is the minister having new telephone lines put up along the coast, and, if so, where?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Department of Marine have a contract with the Bell Telephone Company who have put the rates up. This $10,000 covers the increased rates for the current year.


John Ewen Sinclair: The money goes to the Bell Telephone Company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


William Stevens Fielding: Is there a signal station at Westport, Nova Scotia?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


William Stevens Fielding: It has been alleged that some change has been made in that respect of late, and that the old signal station has been taken down and removed to another place.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It has been removed from the old point down to the lighthouse, at the request of the shipping interests.


William Stevens Fielding: Is it generally assumed that the change is beneficial? It has been alleged* that the change is by no means suitable to the place, and that the station is not convenient to shipping, but I do not like to make the statement too positively.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The storm signal will remain where it is, but the signal service station has been moved down to the lighthouse, as I have said, at the request of the shipping interests.


William Stevens Fielding: What does the term "shipping interests" mean?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Ocean liners and steamship companies, principally the Canadian Shipping Federation of Montreal.


William Stevens Fielding: The records, if necessary, will show that the change was made at their request; is that correct?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Quite correct.


John Howard Sinclair: What
are the places on the coast of Nova Scotia where storm signals are operated.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This is the signal service. Storm signals come under the appropriation for meteorological service.


John Ewen Sinclair: What is this for?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: As soon as a ship passes a signal station, the person in charge telephones to the next station giving the name of the ship and the time at which it passes the station, so that if my non. friend were coming from Liverpool to Montreal, his friends in Montreal would know at what time the ship would reach Montreal, supposing she reached Sorel at such and such a time, and Three Rivers at such and such a time.


John Ewen Sinclair: Are there any such stations on the coast of Nova Scotia?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Partridge island,
Camper down and Westport.


Georges Parent: Does this item cover salaries to men in charge of the service?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Are there increases in salaries?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There has been an increase in salaries to the extent of $2,000.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I understood the additional $10,000 was for extra allowance in connection with the telephone signal service.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Telegraph and
telephone, both.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I notice in the Auditor General's report of last year that $14,157.10 was paid to the Bell Telephone Company for these services. The total amount for this service after deducting provisional allowance, cost of living bonus, was only $59,000. If there is only $2,000 extra to be allowed for telephone service, I can hardly see the reason for the minister asking for an increase of $10,000 when the expenditure was only $59,000 last year.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The increase in salaries is not $2,000 but $4,000; the telegraph charges are $4,000 more and the telephone charges are $4,000 more.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Who keeps up the private telephone line between Montreal and Quebec?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Bell Telephone Company.


Arthur Bliss Copp: They construct and keep it in repair?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Then this amount is to pay the operators along the line of this service?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: What is the necessity for this private telephone line between Quebec and Montreal? Would it not be possible to get the same information by Marconi or otherwise?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This is the
promptest and most efficient service that the Department of Marine and Fisheries could possibly get. Wireless would not suit. If my hon. friend were on a ship, he would notice that the signal stations signal by flag as well as by telephone.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: I am not familiar with signal service stations, but I understand the movements of ships are reported to the signal station at Quebec by wireless. Am I right?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: 
Lawrence Geoffrey Power: The signal service report is really only for ships between Quebec and Montreal.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The telephone
service is just from Montreal to Quebec, and the wireless from Quebec to cape Race.


Lawrence Geoffrey Power: If it is possible to give satisfactory service by wireless from the lower stations to Quebec, I am not opposing the item, but I do not see the urgency of having a special wire from Quebec to Montreal. The most important reports are those that come from'below Quebec when a ship is approaching Canada. Why then should we have, for the sake of reporting movements between Quebec and Montreal, a special telephone line when we already have a Marconi service? Are there special reasons?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This is not a new vote; it is one that has been made for a great many years. It is necessary for the ships to get this telephone service when they are passing each other in the river, and there are many special reasons for it.


Georges Parent: Is this telephone used for the services of the various departments?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, just for navigation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Administration of Pilotage, ?250,000.
Arthur Bliss Copp: I have great pleasure in offering my congratulations to my hon. friend upon the reduction of this item from $400,000, as it was last year, to $250,000, a decrease of $150,000, providing the reduction does not in any way endanger the public service. I would, however, draw his attention to the fact that in the Auditor General's report for the year ending March 31, 1920, there appears only to have been *expended for the administration of pilotage the sum of $103,000 plus the cost of a Royal Pilotage Commission amounting to $11,000. If that is all that was expended in 1920 out of a vote of $400,000 I can hardly see the necessity of voting another $250,000 this year. Perhaps there is some explanation for this, and if so, I will be very glad to hear it.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My hon. friend will remember that I put the Pilotage Act through the House three years ago taking over the pilotage districts of Halifax and .St. John. That accounts for the increase
in expenditure as regards those ports. The decrease shown is due to the fact that we no longer have the British Columbia Pilotage Association, it having been abolished.


Georges Parent: What is meant by "The Administration of Pilotage"? By whom, and in what way is this work done in the several districts of Montreal, Quebec, Halifax and St. John?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: A few years ago the pilotage district of Halifax and St. John was administered by a local pilotage commission. The department have taken those districts over and, like the districts of Montreal and Quebec, they are now under the Marine and Fisheries Department. The general superintendent of pilots stationed at the marine office here, I refer to Captain Robertson, has supervision of the pilotage districts of Montreal. All the pilotage districts of Canada are now directly under the Minister of Marine and Fisheries.


Georges Parent: Has not Mr. Wiallard been appointed superintendent for the district of Quebec?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: He is acting superintendent for the districts of Montreal and Quebec.


Georges Parent: Has the minister received any communications from the Shipping Federation suggesting a decrease in the number of pilots for the district of Quebec?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Well, I have not seen the communications myself but my deputy tells me they have been received, and that the Shipping Federation are under the impression there are too many pilots.


Georges Parent: Upon what grounds do the Shipping Federation base that opinion? For years the pilots have given good service in the country but now it appears the Shipping Federation are asking for a reduction in their number, and suggesting that no more apprentice pilots be admitted. I think the minister should give further information as to the recommendations of the Shipping Federation and the grounds upon which they are based.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I will be very glad to tell my hon. friend that the Government and the Minister of Marine have to stand as impartial judges between the demands of the pilots on the one hand, and the demands of the shipping people on the other. Ever since I have been Minister of

Marine the shipping interests have claimed there are too many pilots in the districts of Montreal and Quebec and they have urged me very strongly to reduce the number. So far the department have not done so. Furthermore the shipping people think the pilotage charges are too high, whereas the pilots themselves consider they are too low. The shipping people think there are too many pilots, and the pilots consider there are enough. That, briefly, is the situation.


Georges Parent: How many pilots do the Shipping Federation think would be necessary for the service?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There are sixty pilots below Quebec and the Shipping Federation think there should only be fifty.


Georges Parent: Do they suggest any means whereby the number can be reduced to fifty.


Pierre-François Casgrain: Yes.


Robert Hamilton Butts: Would my hon. friend suggest cutting the number down to forty.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I am not a minister.


Robert Hamilton Butts: No, but you are making a lot of noise.


John Howard Sinclair: When
this matter was up last year we drew the attention of the minister to the fact that while the pilots of the St.- Lawrence are pensioned, the pilots in other ports of Canada draw no pension. Has the minister any plan for treating the pilots in the other great ports of Canada in the same way as the pilots in the St. Lawrence are treated? In this connection I would like to point out that in answer to a question that I placed on the Order Paper about a week ago-it was stated there are thirty-four retired pilots in Quebec, and that some of them are officially described as " decayed " pilots. I would like the minister to define what a " decayed " pilot is?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The term "decayed " pilot is an old nautical term that we got from Trinity House very many years ago. The Quebec pilots have no more reason, on general principles, to receive a pension than the pilots in any other district of Canada, but when Mr. Justice Brodeur was Minister of Marine and Fisheries, an Order in Council was passed to the effect that when any of the Quebec pilots reached the age of sixty-five they should be placed on the retired list and given a pension of $300 a year. I do not see how the Govern-
[Mr. Ballantyne.}
ment can relieve themselves of the response-bility devolving upon them under the agreement that was entered into at that time betwe'en the then Minister of Marine and the Quebec pilots. My own opinion is that the agreement ought to be continued.


William Stevens Fielding: Is there not a system
of pensions in the case of some of the other pilots? According to my recollection the pensions of the Halifax pilots are chargeable to the pension fund, and the only difference would be that the pensions in one case would come from the pilots' own fund, and in the other case from the Dominion treasury. In that respect there is inequality. I remember when this item was put in by the hon. gentleman's predecessor it was a settlement of a long standing trouble. I have forgotten the details, but I quite agree that the minister can not do otherwise than uphold that settlement.


John Howard Sinclair: I did not expect the minister to upset the agreement made with the Quebec pilots. My point was: had the minister any plan to put that system in force in the other ports. If the pilots in' other ports contribute to a pension fund of their own, that is a very good thing, but the Government do not help that fund so far as I know, and I do not see that those men would be on the same level as the Quebec pilots who are paid out of government funds. Who appoints the pilots in Quebec?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The pilots of
Quebec, like the pilots of other districts, serve an apprenticeship; then on passing the prescribed examinations, they are made branch pilots, and as vacancies occur they are taken on the strength.


John Howard Sinclair: Do they get their papers from the department?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.


John Howard Sinclair: Then, if there are too many pilots, the trouble can be very easily corrected by the department restricting appointments. [DOT]


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This is an oldstanding difficulty, and is one of the reasons why my predecessor, Mr. Brodeur, agreed to give the pilots at Quebec a pension of $300 a year, providing that their number was reduced from 75 to 65, and that is gradually being done. On the other hand, it is rather hard to say to a young man after he has served seven years as an apprentice pilot and is ready to become a branch pilot that he cannot become one. We

are meeting the difficulty by not taking on any more apprentice pilots.


Georges Parent: Did I understand the
minister to say that the corporation of Quebec pilots is now entirely under the control of the department? If so, when did that'corporation effectively disappear?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: An Act was put
through the House in 1914 making the Minister of Marine the pilotage authority. That is the time when the Quebec Pilotage Association really disappeared.


Georges Parent: Is the minister aware
that there is now a union composed of the Quebec pilots to take the place of the corporation of pilots?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I heard so.


Georges Parent: Is he aware that the
charter of the Quebec pilots is still in existence?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not know.


Georges Parent: Perhaps he can find out
from his deputy minister or from the latter's assistant?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Neither of them
knows.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I notice in the Auditor General's Report that during the fiscal year ending March 31, 1920, we expended about $115,000 under this item of administration of pilotage. This year we are asked to vote $250,000. The reason for that increase, as I understood the minister, was because the department had taken over the pilotage business at the ports of St. John and Halifax. The expenses of the Montreal Pilotage Board amounted to $15,525 last year, and the Quebec Pilotage Board to about $5,000, and I submit that the expenses of the ports of Halifax and St. John would not equal those of the ports of Montreal and Quebec. Therefore we would not expect an increase of over $5,000 in each of the Maritime Province ports, besides, while we have taken over the Halifax and St. John pilotage we have relinquished the Victoria, which last year cost $19,000; consequently we should not have any increase at all.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The system is quite different in the districts of Halifax and St. John as compared with that in the districts of Quebec and Montreal. In the former we pay the salaries of the pilots, and they collect the pilotage dues; but in the latter districts the pilotage associations pay their own salaries and collect the pilotage dues.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Were the ports of St. John
and Halifax under the direction of the minister during last year ending March 31?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Halifax was.


Arthur Bliss Copp: What was the expenditure
last year at Halifax?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The St. John pilotage district was taken over on October 1, and to December 31,	1920, I see the
revenue amounted to $9,379. I will try to get the expenditure in a moment or two.


Arthur Bliss Copp: If my hon. friend has not
the information perhaps he would send me a memorandum of it.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I will be very glad to do that.


Georges Parent: On April 4, the member for Dorchester put the following question to the Minister of Marine:
What is the amount of superannuation paid to former pilots from Montreal-Quebec division, or to widows and dependents of same?
What is the number of those pensioners?
What are their names and respective ages?
- This was the answer given by the minister :
Pensions to Montreal-Quebec retired pilots and widows of retired pilots are paid out of the Montreal Decayed Pilots' Pension Fund, and is administered for the Montreal pilots by the Department of Finance.
And here follows a list. Then we come to No. 18 and we find:
Decayed Pilot, Jean Arcand.
I would suggest to the hon. gentleman that when speaking of pilots who are still alive and enjoying pretty good health they should not be called decayed pilots; it sounds very bad.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Sir Henry Drayton moved:
That a sum not exceeding 171,499,703.70, being one-sixth of the amount of each of the several items set forth in the main Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1922, and one-sixth of the amount of the item for a provisional bonus allowance for the Inside and Outside Services of the Civil Service set forth in the supplementary Estimate for the fiscal year ending March 31,	1922, be granted to His
Majesty for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1922.
William Stevens Fielding: I think, Mr. Chairman, it is practically impossible to carry a resolution of this character except by common

consent of the House. I would be glad to know whether my hon. friend the Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) is prepared to receive the suggestions which we offered the other day in what I think was a friendly spirit. If it be that the suggestions then made are not to receive any consideration, why, of course, we must take advantage of whatever the rules of the House will permit. I do not think it is wise for my hon. friend to try to get this motion otherwise than by that common consent which has accompanied such motions in times past.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Mr. Chairman, I entirely agree with the hon. gentleman that this is a matter which ought to be covered by consent. I would go further -I would entirely agree with him that the consent which ought to be now given should be characterized by the same terms and in the same manner as the consents which at his requests were so frequently given during the many years he was Minister of Finance.
A suggestion was made when this matter was first under discussion that salaries should be paid and that other accounts should be stopped. I think it went further than that afterwards-to the extent that essentials should be paid. But we do not intend to pay anything except what is essential and is required to be paid. We certainly did not intend to launch out into expenditures in connection with undertakings which' we are not bound to discharge when we have not got a sufficient vote to carry them through. But my position is exactly the same as the position of my hon. friend on many occasions; it is extremely hard to say in advance what is exactly necessary and what is not. On a former occasion when the same question was put my hon. friend said that he would like to know just exactly what items the Opposition were objecting to when he would consider the matter. We have not, of course, that information as yet.
I would like to point out very briefly some of the difficulties, because I think all hon. gentlemen will realize them. Suppose you take the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-Establishment. Of course, you have the salaries of your officials, but you have also your pay and allowances to the veterans who are receiving treatment or education; you have your unemployment relief; you have your operating expenses, consisting of cash advances for disbursements to meet current expenses, and so on; you have your vocational expenses, payments for supplies
[Mr. Fielding.)
in connection with vocational training, tuition fees and the like; you also have your vocational loans which are being made to returned soldiers under certain circumstances.
The truth of the matter is that the country's business is a pretty big one, perhaps entirely too big a business, but it is impossible to stop it. Take for example your immigration; are we to stop all the work in connection with the Immigration Department, with the exception of payments for salaries and bills already approved? You have your rent of offices all over the country. You have the travelling expenses of agents. I suppose they would have to be stopped. You have your expenses in connection with the deportation of undesirables which has been going on all the time. You have your telegraph and telephone expenses and the necessary alterations to buildings which ought to be done this year. These alterations should be started very soon if we are going to properly look after immigration. You have your running expenses at border points of entry on the international boundary. You have all your expenses in connection with the detention and feeding of immigrants at these border points. Then in regard to the Health Department you are exactly in the same position. Going through all the departments, where there is any work to be done, this simply provides for salaries. If the money is not voted, it means for one thing that you might just as well discharge your employees, because unless these things can be looked after, unless they have something to work with and for, you are getting nothing for your salaries.
The position this year, it seems to me, is exactly the same as in any other year. There have been a great number of these votes. I have already pointed out to the House that English authority states that interim supply is an integral and necessary part of parliamentary and national finance.
I have given already one authority for it; but if there is any doubt in the mind of anybody that what is asked here is not what is necessary, I am going to fortify it with another authority. I will now read from May's Parliamentary Practice, 12th edition, page 448. May says:
Owing to our financial system, and the conditions of parliamentary business, the presentation of estimates for grants in advance upon the estimated departmental expenditure of the year, before a complete sanction has been given to that expenditure, is an annual necessity. These grants are known as "votes on account." It was hoped that the vote of the committee of

supply would be taken upon the bulk of the annual estimates during the earlier portion of each session, as the financial year closes on the 31st March, and begins on the 1st April. The futliity of a hope centred on the 1st April is the experience of every session. When that day comes round, session after session, very slender provision has been made for the requirements of the new financial year. Moreover, as every grant Of supply is limited to the service of the financial year for which it is made, the grant lapses, if it has not been utilized before the 31st March; and under the provisions of the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act, 1866, all unexpended sums in the hands of the departments are surrendered to the exchequer. Thus, obviously, during the first quarter of each calendar year, a vote on account must be demanded ; for if no grant in advance has been made upon the 31st March, the maintenance of the public service in the early part of the new financial year will be wholly unprovided for.
It seems to me it is unnecessary to refer to further authority. The matter is one which is well within the recollection and knowledge of any member of this House who has sat here any length of time. It is certainly well within the memory and recollection of my hon. friend the ex-Minister of Finance. Something was said the other day that conditions were entirely different, that at the present time there were large deficits, while, when previous interim supplies were voted, there were large surpluses. I am looking now at the Public Accounts, page 63, which gives the tabulated statement of surpluses and deficits. While I do not think the question of surpluses or deficits has anything to do with it, nevertheless I notice that in the year 1911 there was a net deficit between receipts and ex-penditues of $3,773,505.70.


William Stevens Fielding: A net deficit in 1911?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes.


William Stevens Fielding: It is only by adding the capital expenditure that the hon. gentleman can make that statement.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The hon gentleman's point is well taken, just as well taken as was the statement made by the hon. gentleman from Gaspe (Mr. Lemieux) because if we deal with the matter in the way suggested by hon. gentlemen, then of course there was a surplus. Going back to the year 1911 again, if you forget all about capital there was a surplus of $30,000,000. Let us treat this year in the same way as the hon. gentleman thinks the matter should be treated. Treating it in the same way for 1920, there is a surplus of $45,900,000. For the present year the surplus is a great deal larger than that.
If we are going to talk about surpluses, we have at least to get on common ground. We have no surpluses when we look at our capital account. We have large surpluses on our ordinary expenses and on our ordinary receipts. The hon. gentleman had surpluses on his ordinary expenditure and on his ordinary receipts. The only difference is that ours is much larger in so far as those items of the account are concerned. On the other hand, our capital expenditures are also much larger. As I was pointing out, there was a deficit in 1911 of three million odd; a deficit in 1910 of $12,338,000; a deficit in 1909, in times of peace with no war debt, of $45,969,000; and a deficit in 1908 of $14,000,000. Let us see now about interim Supplies. Take the year of the big deficit $45,969,000, that occurred in 1909. In that year the interim Supply was allowed to go, not for a sixth, but for a quarter. It seems to me the thing is too plain really to require further elaboration. If it was necessary to carry on the business of the country during the year that I am referring to, during the years my hon. friend moved interim Supply in proper conformity with Canadian practice and with British practice, if it was necessary to decently carry on public business, it is just as necessary in order to decently carry on public business now. If it was necessary to pay Canada's commitments, to observe good faith to carry on our obligations, it is just as necessary to-day. My hon. friend says it should foe done by consent. I entirely agree him, and I hope this matter will be carried through by consent, as indeed, it ought to be.


William Stevens Fielding: I think some hon. gentlemen on this side of the House made some references to surpluses which perhaps justified the hon. gentleman's comment. I did not, however, and so I pass from that. I pause only to say that, if I am not mistaken, my successor in office came down to this House and announced a very handsome surplus and did not find it necessary to draw the line that my hon. friend draws now. However, there is no difference between us in substance in that respect. I am going to suggest to my hon. friend that when he is spending his time pouring over the pages of history he should not deal so much with what the late Minister of Finance said. It would be exceedingly interesting if he told us what the Prime Minister of to-day, and the late Prime Minister and what another hon. gentleman sitting on that side of the House, said at this time. It might be as interesting as


Arthur Meighen: I gentlemen opposite in efforts which they are making to distinguish between conditions that obtain this year and those that have obtained for many
years gone by in relation to this vote. The distinction was put on one basis last week; it is put on a wholly different basis to-day. Last week we were told: "We could not agree to interim Supply this year because, when interim Supply was voted under a former Government, there were surpluses, whereas now there are large deficits." The facts fell from under that contention, so the contention was abandoned. The facts were the contrary. The surpluses as calculated by hon. gentlemen are much greater now than they were then.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, the difference between ordinary expenditure and revenue is much greater to-day than it has ever been before, and hon. gentlemen opposite have asked and obtained interim Supply when there was no surplus at all, but a huge deficit amounting to a large proportion of the whole annual revenue. The facts fell from under that contention, so the whole footing was shifted to-night. To-night we are told: "It cannot be agreed to, because there is so much money needed;" or to put the matter in other words: The necessities are so great, the reason for objecting is all the greater. In Great Britain there is interim Supply voted where the necessities are ten times as great as ours, and I have not heard of any hon. gentleman in the British House of Commons putting forward that ground for refusing interim Supply, nor do I know of any interim Supply being refused anywhere or any time upon grounds such as suggested by hon. members opposite to-night. I have looked the records back over many years to find whenever conditions were such in this, or any other House, and I know of no such case.
Hon. gentlemen opposite have shifted their grounds in other respects very materially. The leader of the Opposition (Mr. Mackenzie King), read what he said on April 7, to- the effect that he was not so very much opposed to interim Supply to the extent that the public service be paid. But when he spoke in this House on March 15, that was not the position he took; he did not hold open any door then, so far as I could see. If any hon. gentleman can see any hole or opening in this door, his mental eyesight is better than mine. This is the ultimatum that the leader of the Opposition gave to the House when the question was up on March 15:
This delay on the part of the Government is the less excusable inasmuch as the matter was
to be absolutely ne time.
sympathise with ho: the rather awkwan

expressly brought to its attention on two or three occasions during our last session.
He goes on to show that, the session before, he had told us there could be no more interim Supply:
When we were discussing Supplementary Estimates on June 7 last I took occasion to speak to the hon. Minister ot Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) as follows :
I want to say, not by way of threat but simply that hon. gentlemen opposite will understand the position of the Opposition, that if the government of the day should by any possibility be in office next year we shall not be willing to make these advances.
I was referring then-and I think the Government would do well to consider this particular feature at the moment-to the practice which my hon. friend asked us to adopt of voting a portion of the Supply en bloc at the end of the fiscal year before there had been any opportunity of considering the Estimates.


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: Hear, hear.


Arthur Meighen: Does the hon. gentlemen say that he meant there that we had asked Supply en bloc last year before any Estimates had been considered? That was not the fact. He meant that he would object this year to any vote en bloc; that is interim Supply.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Without consideration.


Arthur Meighen: Nobody is asking him to vote this without consideration. We have given him time for consideration since last Thursday; in fact, we notified him first on Tuesday night, so that he has had a week for consideration now and he can have still longer. There will be an hour or so to-night, or, perhaps, still more, for consideration to be given to the matter. His statement, quoting what he said on June 7, is that he would not be willing to vote interim Supply this year. That was the ultimatum which he gave to the House.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: En bloc, yes.


Arthur Meighen: Is this not en bloc?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: One-sixth
without consideration would be en bloc.


Arthur Meighen: Who is talking about no consideration; we have never refused consideration, never suggested such a thing. This is an interim Supply vote which is a vote en bloc, which he told us on March 15, supplementing what he said on June 7 of last year, he would not agree to vote. Now he complains because we did not go to him and beg him to recede from his position. If the hon. gentleman had not made that statement, it would have been our duty to

approach him; but he notified us twice from his place in the House that he would not grant interim Supply. Now he complains that we have taken him at his word. Such is the first shift. Then when this came up on the seventh it was suggested by hon. gentlemen opposite that they were not ready to vote interim Supply, but they would vote to pay the public servants. That was as far as they were ready to go then. That is to say they were ready to pay wages and salaries to the civil servants of this country as long as the civil servants did not work-as long as we could not supply them with the material to work with. They would, for example, pay the nurses and the doctors, and other employees in the hospitals under the Department of the Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment but they would not buy medicines for the patients, they would not heat the buildings, and they would not pay the rent. They would vote the money to pay the salaries of engineers on irrigation works but they would not vote them supplies to go on their trips. In a word they would pay civil servants money for their services as long as they gave no value therefor. That was the position hon. gentlemen took on the seventh. But to-day they go further: They say we will vote the salaries of the civil servants but nothing else except what is necessary to be voted in order to carry on the public service. But they want to surround even such a vote of interim Supply with some conditions. I ask why surround with conditions this year when conditions were never suggested before? Is it because the amount is larger? Is it because we have to pay $15,000,000 a year on the war debt? Is that the reason for surrounding interim Supplies with conditions? Is it because we have to maintain hospitals for our soldiers at an expenditure of twenty millions or more a year? Is that a reason for surrounding interim Supplies with conditions? Is it because we have to have from forty to fifty million dollars for the land settlement of our soldiers? Is that a reason why there should be conditions? Is it because we spend thirty millions a year or more for pensions? Is that another reason? I hope hon. gentlemen opposite realize in that regard how formidable was their position on the seventh when they were ready to pay the pension commissioners, and all the officers of the commission, but they were not ready to pay any pensions.
Now what is it in the Estimates that hon. gentlemen think should be held up? What is there in those Estimates that is

not necessary for the public service? If hon. gentlemen to-night-and there is yet time

will go through the Estimates and lay their finger on something that they think can profitably wait for a month or two months we are ready to consider it. But they have had plenty of time to do that. Since a week ago they have known that interim Supply would be introduced. I venture to say that never since interim Supply was first asked in this House has it been left as long-in order to enable supplies to be voted in the regular way, if possible-as it has been done in this case. We are now twelve days past the end of the fiscal year and no interim Supply has been voted. We are one week past the time when notice was given that a motion for interim Supply would be introduced. My hon. friends have had all that time to search out an item of some nature-I do not know what it could be-that is in the Estimates to which they want to take exception. We will give them a little longer time, and if there is such that it can, without any injustice at all to the public service, be omitted I have no desire to go on therewith. But we must have interim Supply or there will be paralysis of the public service of this country, and it is interim Supply that we have been notified by the leader of the Opposition officially, on two occasions, that will be denied. Consequently I ask hon. gentlemen from every side of the House what it is that has occurred that justifies an attitude never before assumed in Parliament, that justifies defiance-frank defiance first, modified defiance next, and conditional defiance now-of a practice essential to the business of Parliament. We ask only for the rights that every Government has had in other times; and while we have a majority in this House-while we have a majority ready to support us in that position-we are prepared to give all reasonable time for consideration of every reasonable suggestion, but that done we intend that the majority ' shall rule.	,


Charles Murphy: If the Prime Minister intends to secure interim Supply, he has, I submit, adopted the wrong tone and the wrong language for securing it. Personally, I do not intend to have my position misrepresented by the right hon. gentleman, any more than the member for Marquette (Mr. Crerar) permitted him to misrepresent his position. The right hon. gentleman spoke of facts having dropped from under the position taken by hon. gentlemen on this side. Well,
Sir, if anything dropped from under anybody, the ground dropped from under the right hon. gentleman this afternoon when he made an accusation against my hon. friend from Marquette, an accusation that was refuted by that hon. gentleman's reference to Hansard and by his quoting words that fell from a member of the present Government.
Now I would have thought that the generous offer that was made from this side of the House with regard to securing interim Supply by a conference, and subsequently by unanimous consent, would have been met in a very different spirit from that displayed by the Prime Minister. He has endeavoured to ridicule the language used by the leader of the Opposition by twisting the words that the latter hon. gentleman used when he referred to his statement that he would decline to grant interim Supply. Without question the words used by my hon. friend (Mr. King) on that occasion referred to the fact that he would not grant interim Supply for any of the Estimates which had not been considered and the Prime Minister, I submit, must have so understood him. In any event that is the way in which we on this side of the House understood the statement. Personally, I repeat that language and, speaking for myself, and for myself only, I decline to be a party to granting interim Supply for any item in these Estimates which, up to the present time, we have not considered. Now analogies have been sought to be drawn between conditions that exist now and those that existed in times past; and the hon. gentleman who now occupies the position of Finance Minister undertook to re-write the bookkeeping of this country for the last ten years and to make it appear to-night in this House for the first time that there were deficits in years past in which the Finance Minister occupying the position he does, and belonging to the same party that he does, declared that there were surpluses. One notable example of that was referred to by my hon. friend from Shelburne and Queen's (Mr. Fielding), who quoted what was said by the minister who occupied that position in the Borden Government in 1912 when, speaking in this House in the spring of that year, he announced a surplus of thirty odd millions and, in a spirit of playfulness, said he would give credit for one-half of it to the Laurier Administration and credit for the other half to the new administration. I refer to that only by

the way. But this is the kind of argument that is used, and this is the spirit in which the generous offer from this side of the House is met.
As I mentioned a moment ago, attempts have been made to prove that conditions now differ in no respect from conditions in the past when interim Supply was asked and granted. Mr. Chairman, conditions differ vastly now from those which prevailed in times past. Generally, conditions differ to the extent which has been alluded to by the two hon. gentlemen who have preceded me in this debate. But there is another important difference which I wish to bring to the attention of the committee, and in regard to which I wish to define my own position whether any other hon. gentleman on this side agrees with me or not. The proposal has been made to pay the salaries of the civil servants. So far as I am concerned I want to qualify that. In as much as it may be regarded as expressing my personal agreement I want to qualify it to this extent-that I will not agree to vote any interim Supply which covers salaries for any of the six hundred and ninety-two new positions which are set forth in these Estimates; I will not be a party to that.


Robert Hamilton Butts: The labourer is not worthy of his hire.


Charles Murphy: According to the Estimates the Department of Insurance has 2 new positions, the Department of Health 6, the National Art Gallery 9, the Naval Service 9, the Finance Department 12, the Fisheries Department 13, the Marine Department 17, the Civil Service Commission 19, Patents and Copyright Office 19, Secretary of State's Office, 24, Department of Immigration 24, Auditor General's Office 24, Post Office Department 185 and the Department of Militia and Defence 309. I decline to be a party to granting interim Supply to cover one-sixth, or whatever the fraction may be, of the salaries provided for these new offices created in these various departments.
I decline further in view of the discussion that took place between six o'clock yesterday evening and six o'clock this evening-a discussion for which the thanks of this country are due to the gentlemen on this side who participated in it and thereby focussed attention upon this expenditure, this indefensible expenditure, in connection with this mad shipbuilding programme of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries.

Speaking as one member on this side, I decline to be a consenting party to interim Supply that will commit me to the principle involved in that item that was discussed for that length of time and which was suspended on the motion of the Prime Minister. Now I have shown a few particulars in which present conditions differ from those in times past. I have done so simply because of a challenge thrown out by the Prime Minister. I do not do so for the purpose of preventing the Government from getting the moneys which they should get in order to carry on the public business of this country. Now, Mr. Chairman, just let me point out how much the members of the Opposition can dig out of these Estimates when left to themselves and with no further information than that which is disclosed on their face. Just let me refer to a little incident of this afternoon. On page 48 of the Estimates there appears item 211 "Removal of obstructions in navigable waters, $18,000", an increase of $13,000 over last year. The Minister of Marine was asked to explain that increase. He first of all said that it was on account of a wreck in Weller's bay in the entrance to the Welland canal. I asked the minister what this wreck was. I was told it was a large vessel as though the size of the vessel would explain the increased vote. I then asked him for the name of the vessel and the name of its owner. He gave me the name of the vessel, and then said the name of the owner was the Hon. Lome Webster, a senator supporting this Government in the other branch of Parliament. So this Government was voting public money to benefit a supporter of theirs in the other House to the tune of $13,000, and that was a thing that was exposed this afternoon. That exposure having been drawn from the Government, the Minister of Marine was forced to promise the House that he would see that the Hon. Lome Webster returned to the. Government the money that was expended in removing the wreck of his boat. Now, that is a sample of the amount of information contained in the Estimates. If it is impossible for the Opposition-


John Wesley Edwards: If my hon. friend will allow me. Take the item my hon. friend mentions, and suppose that interim Supply had been granted yesterday, would the granting of that have prevented this committee from refusing to pass that item.


Charles Murphy: I am not contending that it would, but it places those who consent in

an embarrassing and very difficult position. If they criticise an item, and still more if they move to strike it out, they are liable to be told: You consented to a portion of that. I submit that hon. members should not be put in that position.


Arthur Meighen: No.


Charles Murphy: My right hon. friend
says no. I am quite prepared to accept his statement. When my hon. friend from Frontenac asked me a very proper question, I was about to say that the Prime Minister should not taunt this side of the House with having had ample time to know what they are prepared to consent to. The Government itself should make it clear to members on this side of the House what items cover matters of urgent public business, and having done that they would be met in a fair and generous spirit by the Opposition. It is impossible for hon. members on this side of the House, for the reason I have pointed out in connection with the item which I have cited, to know what moneys are urgently required and what are not. There may be some general sums in connection with certain departments, the very phrasing descriptive of which would indicate that they were urgently required, but I submit there are a great many other items in regard to which the Opposition cannot have any information unless that information is furnished by the Government. So I submit that if the Government desire .to secure by unanimous consent a percentage of these Estimates necessary to carry on the public business of the country, then the whole matter should be approached in a very different manner from that in which the Prime Minister has seen fit to approach it.


Georges Henri Boivin: Is it the pleasure of [DOT] the committee to adopt the resolution?


William Stevens Fielding: No, Mr. Chairman, I
had hoped that a general discussion would lead to some friendly understanding, because whether the Minister of Finance will credit me or not, I am sincerely anxious that we shall come to a good understanding in this matter. I regret that I have seen no signs of that, and therefore I am obliged to take the point of order that this' motion is out of order and cannot be entertained. When motions are made for Supply en bloc they can only be carried by waiving all the rules of the House, and that is what I had in mind when I said that only when there was mutual agreement could such motions be passed. There is no Estimate before the
House which permits this motion to be made. The Estimates contain many hundreds of votes, each of those votes is an individual resolution, and each of those resolutions must be considered separately and individually. If the hon. gentleman can come in and move that one-sixth be voted en bloc, then he could move that the other five-sixths be voted en bloc. I submit that unless there be an agreement by common consent this motion cannot be entertained. No record, I think, can be found of any such motion in previous years. When we say we will take a sixth or a fourth, as the case may be, that is not a part of any motion, although it is interesting by way of information. I submit, Sir, that my hon. friend cannot proceed in this way; he must take each one of these items and move with regard to one-sixth of that item, and we have a right to debate every one of them.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Mr. Chairman, I would like very much if I could to accommodate the hon. gentleman, but I fear it is entirely impossible to do so at this hour.


Georges Henri Boivin: As the hon. member (Mr. Fielding) has raised the point of order, I would ask other hon. members to confine their remarks to the point of order now before the Chair.


Arthur Meighen: Mr. Chairman, on
many grounds it is impossible that the point of order can stand. The burden is on the hon. gentleman to show that a resolution on Estimates submitted to this committee cannot take any form that an hon. member chooses to put it in. It is true the practice of the House is to move one item after another. In fact, no motion is usually put; it is implied that each item is under consideration by way of motion.


William Stevens Fielding: The item is always
called by the Chairman.


Arthur Meighen: But to say that the motion because it takes another form is out of order so long as it relates to the Estimates that are before this committee, seems to me to be asserting something that there is no reason behind at all. If the Chair is to rule that no interim Supply in this House-and the same rule applies to the British House-can go through unless every member agrees, then it is in the power of any individual member to prevent the passing of interim Supply and to tie up the whole business of the country indefinitely. The suggestion seems to me absurd, and the consequences of it are so



appalling that it is impossible to assume that it is embodied in the rules at all. The hon. gentleman said that if we voted one-fifth en bloc could also vote the remaining four-fifths. So we could, if the House chooses to go that way, but the Government never would be justified in introducing such a motion. Any Government which asked for interim Supply beyond the necessities of the State would very soon loose the confidence of the country. But it is for this committee to decide in what form it deals with the Estimates put before it, and it can deal with them in this form the same as in any other form. It is for the committee to decide by its majority whether the motion which is now before the Chair -and which is the same motion which has been before the Chair in former years- is in proper form.


William Stevens Fielding: I admit, as my right hon. friend says, that it is the same motion as has been before the Chair in former years, but with this vital difference. In former years an agreement had been come to and no exception was taken to the motion. That being the case the ordinary rules were waived. My right hon. friend says this committee can deal as it likes with these Estimates but I submit that it can only deal with them in accordance with the rules of the House. These Estimates which I hold in my hand contain several hundred items. I say the practice follows a simple principle, and if my right hon. friend can move for one-sixth en bloc he can also move for the remaining five-sixths. That is so preposterous that I am sure that my right hon. friend in his graver moments would not consider it. I make the assertion that in no case will it be found that a motion for interim Supply is in the form in which this is now presented. I think it will be found in every instance that the items are taken individually, and if they are not separately voted upon it is because the House has come to an understanding. What usually follows? There being an understanding- such an understanding as I would be glad to have now-we agree that we will take one-sixth and we allow the Clerk of the House the responsibility of preparing the items, but in no case is the motion submitted in the form in which it is now before the Chairman of this committee.


Ernest Lapointe: Mr. Chairman, I
desire to say a word or two in support of the point of order raised by my hon. friend from Shelburne and Queen's (Mr. Field-

ing). The rule is perfectly clear: Every item of the Estimates must be brought before the committee by way of resolution. That is what Bourinot lays down very plainly. As my hon. friend from Shelburne and Queen's states, if it can be done otherwise for one-sixth, it can be done for the whole. That is why every year this interim Supply when granted has been granted by consent after a preliminary conference. I will call the your attention, Mr. Chairman, to the language of the right hon. member for King's, N.S. (Sir Robert Borden) who was Prime Minister for several years after having been leader of the Opposition for a lengthy period. Speaking on April 7, he said, at page 1747 of the Unrevised Hansard:
It is perfectly obvious that you can get a vote on account only by consent, because on every item with respect to a vote on account, you could take up just as much time as you could in passing the entire Estimates. Therefore, it goes without saying that this must be by consent.
Of course my right hon. friend the present leader of the Government is more arbitrary than his predecessor was, and does not care about obtaining consent from his opponenets when he wants something to be done, but with all his cleverness he has no right to twist the rules of the House. If he will not resort to the ordinary courtesy of coming to the leader of the Opposition for a conference and consent in this matter, we certainly have the right to object to the passing of this interim Supply, and, Mr. Chairman, undoubtedly you must rule out of order the motion which is before you.


Arthur Meighen: I desire to refer to one feature of the hon. gentleman's remarks. First, I observe that he still does not quote any rule upon which he asks for this rather remarkable ruling; and, next, in his references to the speech of the former Prime Minister he quotes remarks to the effect that because of the right of any hon. member, under a motion for interim Supply, to debate any item affected by that motion, it would be practically impossible to proceed except by consent. So by an abuse of the rule, there would be that practical impossibility, which abuse fortunately now can be overcome by the amendment of rule 17. That is what the former Prime Minister had in view. I have never heard it suggested in this House that the motion for interim Supply must be by unanimous consent. It never was put in that way at any time, and never was so intended by

the former Prime Minister. The consequence of any such ruling would indeed be so appalling, as I said before, that I cannot conceive of its being made.


Ernest Lapointe: My right hon. friend said that I had not quoted any rule upon which I based my argument. I cite the following from page 416 of Bourinot:
All these Estimates are divided into votes or resolutions, which appropriate specified sums for services specially defined. They are arranged under separate heads of expenditure, so as to give the full information upon all matters contained therein. The blue book is made up in several columns; one showing the amount, if any, voted during the previous year; another, the amount to be voted for the next year; another (where necessary), the increase or decrease of expenditure for the same service. Each resolution specifies, when necessary, every item on which there is to be a particular expenditure. For instance, under the head of a vote for harbours for a province there will be a number of distinct items, one for each harbour for which money is required. When the resolutions are under consideration in committee, it is the duty of the minister (whose Estimates are under consideration), to explain each item that appertains to his department, and in this way the House is able to come to a conclusion as to its necessity.
Nowhere can you find that it is possible to avoid this by bringing in a general resolution covering all the items of the Estimates.


Charles Joseph Doherty: The hon. gentleman's citation from Bourinot has reference to how these things are done, but there is not one word suggesting that the committee is not at liberty to deal with all of these things that have been referred to it. Bourinot has told us but we all know by our own experience how this thing is done.
Mr. McMASTER; Why was it always done by consent, if the right existed in the Government to do it without consent?


Charles Joseph Doherty: Because in the past
Oppositions were more reasonable. I do not think I need labour what I have just pointed out. The hon. gentleman has failed to cite any authority which is opposed to us.


William Stevens Fielding: What, would my hon. friend claim that if the Minister of Finance, instead of bringing all these details from day to day, came in with a motion, and said "I move that the whole Estimate be passed en bloc," it would be a proper motion, and that we could not take exception to it under the rules of the House?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I think you will recognize that the Minister of Finance in doing that would be acting most unwisely.
127i


William Stevens Fielding: That is not the question.


Charles Joseph Doherty: But if you ask me if there is any rule against doing it, I would reply with the question; where is the rule? There is a method in which the Estimates are usually dealt with, but we always come back to the question:	Where is the rule
that deprives the committee of the right of dealing with them en bloc?


William Stevens Fielding: Where there is a
multitude of resolutions before a body, you cannot bulk the resolutions and move their adoption all at once.


Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:: The Minister of Finance has cited page 448 of May in support of this contention. I would like to turn to page 446 of the same volume where you find the following:
The demand by the Crown for grants of aid and supply for the service of each financial year is made in the speech from the throne at the opening of Parliament. The Sovereign addresses the Commons, demands the annual supply for the public service, and acquaints them that estimates will be laid before them of the amount that will be required. Further demands may be made during the progress of the session by messages from the Crown desiring pecuniary aid (see p. 454), by a demand for a vote of credit (se' page 454), or by the presentation of an estimate. The form in which the Commons vote those supplies is a resolution that each sum be granted to His Majesty.


Charles Joseph Doherty: Hear, hear.


Joseph Archambault: Therefore, the inference is clear that they cannot be passed en bloc, because there must be a resolution for each sum granted to His Majesty.


Georges Henri Boivin: The point of order raised by the hon. member for Queen's and Shelburne (Mr. Fielding) is that the Estimates which appear in the printed volume for the current year cannot be bulked together for the purpose of voting en bloc on account a certain proportion of the said Estimates. The hon. members who have spoken on the point of order have referred to the rule of the House, but none of the members has cited the rule. As a matter of fact, there is no rule of the House of Commons of Canada relating to the manner in which the Estimates shall be submitted to the House. There is however, a general rule, rule 1, which says:
In all cases not provided for hereinafter or by Sessional or other Orders, the rules, usages and forms of proceeding of the House of Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in force on the first day of July, 1867, shall be followed.

Referring to Bourinot and May in order to find the precedents and the customs then in force, I find that my hon. friend the member for Quebec East did not, in citing Bourinot, cite the strongest statement in Bourinot in support of his contention. Bourinot at page 425 says:
When the House goes into committee of supply, the Speaker will call on the chairman of committees, or in his absence, on an experienced member, to take the chair of the committee. The rules that obtain in other committees prevail also in this. Each resolution will be formally proposed from the Chair, and amendments may be made thereto. Each member is provided with a printed copy of the estimates, and the Chairman reads the vote at length frpm a written set of resolutions, each of v/hich he signs when it has been adopted by the committee. As in other committees, each resolution must be proposed and discussed as a distinct question, and when it has been formally carried, no reference can be made again thereto. Neither i3 it regular to discuss any resolution before it has been formally proposed from the Chair. Each vote or resolution is necessarily a question in itself to be proposed, amended and put as any motion or Bill in the House.
That would make it quite clear that the Government would not have the right to vote en bloc the total Estimates for any one year. But provision has been made for an interim vote, and if hon. members will turn to page 450 of Bourinot they will see there the following statement:
"It is an established rule," says a high authority, "that a vote on account should Involve no new principle, but should merely provide for the continuation of services which had been sanctioned in the previous year; and it is the practice not to take more than two or three months' Supply, except in certain particular cases of public emergency, so that the committee in agreeing to vote on account are not pledged to the Estimates for the year in anticipation of the opportunity to be afterwards afforded of voting them in detail."
That is not very clear, but by referring to the 12th edition of Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice, at page 479, hon. members will find the following:
The motion by which a grant on account is proposed follows the customary form. The motion states the total sum required; and the various amounts needed for each department, which compose that sum, are stated in a schedule appended to the resolution^ The question proposed thereon from the Chair follows the terms of the resolution, and places the total sum, the aggregate grant, before the committee for its decision; and upon that question amendments can be moved for the reduction of the whole grant, or for the reduction or omission of the items whereof the grant is composed.
I certainly must follow the precedent just cited and rule that the resolution is quite in order.
[The Chairman. 3


William Stevens Fielding: I wish to avoid any confusion, Mr. Chairman, and I understand you rule the motion is in order. In the terms of the ruling I understand we can deal by discussion and by amendment with every individual item which is included within that motion.


Georges Henri Boivin: The citation upon
which I base my ruling, reads as follows:
The motion by which a grant on account is proposed follows the customary form. The motion states the total sum required; and the various amounts needed for each department, which compose that sum, are stated in a schedule appended to the resolution. The question proposed thereon from the Chair follows the terms of the resolution, and places the total sum, the aggregate grant, before the committee for its decision ; and upon that question amendments can be moved for the reduction of the whole grant, or for the reduction or omission of the items whereof the grant is composed.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I understood from the Prime Minister's argument that he thought as this interim Supply had been granted in times vpast, it should, without question, be granted now, and in connection with his argument the Prime Minister endeavoured to make out that the financial condition of this country was not a serious one. He endeavoured to convey to the House the impression that we had on ordinary account a very large surplus of revenue over expenditure. I cannot think that the Prime Minister, with the sense of responsibility which that position entails, would wish to convey to this House and this country anything but the real fact, that the country's financial condition merits the serious attention of every patriotic Canadian citizen. What has been done in the past is not a precedent as to what should be done at this time, because our financial condition is so different from what it was in days gone by.
I think that perhaps members of the House may be interested in a every brief consideration of the following figures: the total expenditure of Canada for the fiscal year in which Confederation took place, 1867-68, amounted to just under thirteen and a-half millions on ordinary and on capital account. If you estimate the population of Canada at that time as three and a-half millions-and I think that is a fair computation for the purpose of my argument-you will find that the expenditure per head during that year, both on capital and ordinary account, was $3.84. Ten years afterwards, our expenditures had gone up to twenty-three and a-half millions. Our population had gone up to about four and a-half millions, and the

per head expenditure amounted to $5.43. In 1887-88 our expenditure had risen to almost thirty-seven, millions. The population was then over four and three-quarter millions, and the per capita expenditure- and those figures always relate to capital as well as ordinary account-amounted to $7.63. In 1897-98 the expenditure amounted to thirty-nine millions and the average per capita expenditure to $7.24 and at the end of the next decennial period, 1907-8 it had risen to just over seventy-six and a-half millions. Our population was estimated then at about seven and a-quar-ter millions and the per head expenditure to $10.63. In 1910-11 the former Prime Minister of this country stated that an expenditure of just over eighty-seven and three-quarter millions was a fair indication or prima facie evidence, if I remember his terms correctly, of corruption. Our population was then about seven and a-quarter millions, and the yearly expenditure amounted to $12.18 per capita. In the last year before the war the total expenditure on capital and ordinary account amounted to about one hundred and twenty-seven and a-quarter millions, and, estimating our population at seven and a-quarter million, we find an annual per head expenditure of $17.68. Last year our per head expenditure was just about $74.20, and it will be just as high this year. It is true, as the Prime Minister said, that money is badly needed; but is it not even more true that reduction in the Estimates is required, and that we must cut down the expenditures of this country?
I know that complaint against extravagance of governments by Oppositions is not a new note to be sounded in legislative halls, but the Minister of Finance has asked us to point to some expenditures to which we object, and as regards which we do not wish to take the responsibility of voting even one-sixth. I would like the representatives of business on the other side of the House, who, I trust, have some feeling of responsibility for the financial condition of the country, to do me the honour of following me in what I say and, if necessary, to turn over the Estimates and look at the figures to which I very respectfully invite their attention. On page 37 of the Estimates, I find a new dry-dock at Esquimalt, B.C., amount $300,000. Is that a necessary expenditure? I should like to enlist, if I could, on my side the Minister of Finance whose responsibility is very great in the premises at the present
time. I would ask him whether he believes a new drydock at Esquimalt, at a cost of $300,000, is a proper expenditure in the present condition of the country's finances.
I said $300,000; I was wrong; I should have said $1,300,000. It is just one million times worse than I thought it was. Then we find Toronto harbour improvements, amount $1,000,000. I have put upon the Order Paper a request for a return of the quantity of tonnage which comes into and goes out of every port in Canada, and I say that the tonnage that comes into and goes out of Toronto harbour cannot justify for one moment an expenditure of $1,000,000. The expenditure there is a great scheme of civic improvement to give a fine marine driveway or lake driveway for the people of Toronto. It is not in any degree an expenditure for the purpose of bettering the shipping of Canada. One million seven. hundred thousand dollars was spent on this last year, and we are asked to- spend $1,000,000 this year. I would ask hon. members who are interested in this question, which is, after all, the most important question that we have in Canada to-day- the bread and butter question, the question of expenditures of the Government-to look at page 44 of the Estimates where they will find it is proposed to spend $20,000 more on the National Gallery of Canada. No doubt it is a splendid thing to develop art and the artistic qualities and perceptions of our people; but, after all, the first thing that Canadians have to do at the present time is to cut down expenditures.
I would ask hon. members to 1 10 p.m. refer to page 61 of the
Estimates where they will find this item: Civil aviation, $700,000. During the war, I understand that one-half of the British Air Force was manned by Canadians and that they made a grand name for themselves on the western front in air operations. With the advantage of a number of young men who have qualified themselves for work in the air, it should not have been necessary for the Government to propose to spend this amount on civil aviation, and it is a mistake to propose to spend this money because the question is not a pressing one. Then we have a Canadian air force at an amount of $825,000, and again I object to such an item. I cannot pretend to be exhaustive in this discussion; I am only picking out items here and there. I pick out this item on page 63: The Canadian Press, Ltd., $50,000. I have on previous occasions criticised this item, and it is a great mis-

take, for the sake of the Government and the press of this country, that one should be under any obligation to the other. The press of Canada should stand on its own feet, pay its own expenses, and look to no Government, no matter what political complexion that Government may have, for any aid. In days gone by, in the time of Queen Anne, the Grub street scribblers used to be retained by one party or the other in order to help themselves to remain in power or to get into power, I am utterly opposed to this subsidizing of the press by the Government.
I have tried to answer very briefly the challenge of the Prime Minister to indicate in the Estimates anything that fault could be found with. I cannot think, having the pleasure of the personal acquaintance of hon. gentlemen opposite, that they are altogether lost to a sense of responsibility; but may I say, in all seriousness, that the financial condition which confronts our country is of the most serious nature, and economy must be not only preached, but practised.


Mr. GUTHRIE:: May I be permitted
to say just one word in reference to a statement made a short time ago by the hon. member for Russell (Mr. Murphy), regarding the apparent increase in the number of employees in the Department of Militia and Defence? When the Estimates were tabled about a month ago, there was some comment in the press and in the corridors of this House, because there was a large apparent increase in the number of officials in the department. But if hon. members had read the Estimates as prepared on page 8, they would have received notice, by means of an asterisk, that the votes now submitted, and the votes previously submitted for the same purpose, differ in this respect, that in former years during the war, those who held many of the positions now tabulated under the Militia Department, were paid, not out of the funds of the Militia Department, but out of the War Vote and the Demobilization Vote which were granted from year to year. As a matter of fact, there has been, during the past year, a tremendous decrease in the employment of the Militia Department. It might well be expected that since the end of the war, employment in that department would rapidly decrease, and such being the case, a short table of figures shows the employment in that department during the war. I give these figures now to correct any misapprehension that may have arisen on the part of 'Mr. McMaster.]
hon. members who hastily read the Estimates as printed.
The total number of civilian employees, temporary and permanent, at Ottawa, and in the various military districts throughout Canada for the war years, was as follows:
1914		 558
1915		 1,231
1916		 2,875
1917		 4,092
1918		 5,201
1919		 8,105
1920		 5,900
At the present date, there are 1,386 both at headquarters and throughout the eleven military districts of Canada. When I assumed office in this department a little over a year ago, there were approximately 5,900 employees. To-day at Ottawa and throughout the districts, there is a total of 1,386. In Ottawa we have still temporary employees to the number of 805. We propose, through the Civil Service Commission, to have a list for some years to come of permanent employees to the number of 339, not 441, as printed in the Estimates. This arises for this reason: Many of these positions, which have arisen only since the war, will have to become permanent for a number of years yet to come. We shall have to maintain a staff in our record office of approximately 74 additional permanent clerks; in our separation allowance and assigned pay branch, of 50 additional permanent clerks; in the central registry, of 43 additional permanent clerks, and in other branches, of 92 additional permanent clerks. Just how long the services of these permanent clerks will be necessary one cannot more than surmise, but I should fancy for a few years, perhaps five, or in extreme cases, seven or eight years. These clerks have not been employed this year for the first time; they have been carried throughout the war. We have reduced the number now to what we believe is a minimum number for future years; but for the first time we propose to .pay those clerks this year out of Militia Department vote while, during former war years, they were paid directly out of War Appropriation and Demobilization votes. The Demobilization vote this year has been reduced to some $6,000,000 or $7,000,000; last year the House will remember that it was $38,000,000. I think the explanation which I have now given will be satisfactory to the committee. I merely wanted to demonstrate that there has been no increase, but a tremendous decrease; in fact, at the present moment in the city of

Ottawa, we have only 805 temporary employees; we propose to have 399, which will make a total of 1,204, and our total in the districts outside of Ottawa will be 184 temporary employees, making a total of 1,386, which we have to-day as against the total of 5,200 which we had fourteen months ago.


William Stevens Fielding: Mr. Chairman, would
you be good enough to either read the resolution, or permit the clerk to do it, or kindly send it to me to read-whichever you prefer.
Resolution read by the Chairman.


William Stevens Fielding: That is the whole
resolution; there is nothing more? Very well, I want to call the attention of the committee-although I do not wish to be at all technical-to the ruling given. The rule laid down by the Deputy Speaker, Sir, before you took the Chair, was that this resolution should be accompanied by a schedule. The part of the rule to which I have reference reads as follows:
The motion by which a grant on account is proposed follows the customary form.
In this case there is no customary form so I will waive that.
The motion states the total sum required; and the various amounts needed for each department, which compose that sum, are stated in a schedule appended to the resolution.
There is no schedule appended to the resolution and it is for you to consider, Sir, whether you can proceed to deal with it when it is not in conformity with the ruling of the Deputy Speaker.


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Steele):: The
Deputy Speaker, as I understood him, did not rule that the schedule must be attached to the resolution, but he read an extract from May which said that was customary in England. It has never been the custom in Canada to annex a schedule to the resolution for votes on account and it is considered here that the printed Estimates distributed to members are sufficient for the purpose of adopting such votes on account. I would therefore consider that we can quite properly proceed with the resolution as it is before the committee.


William Stevens Fielding: I would like you to
permit me, Mr. Chairman, and I bow to your ruling, to say that the ruling of the Deputy Speaker was in the words of May. He read the words from May and upon that he based his decision.


Ernest Lapointe: I suppose we have a
right to ask questions in regard to any item
in the Estimates? There is an item, number 325, asking for a vote of $80,442, to provide for salaries and contingencies for a purchasing commission. If I remember well, a Bill was introduced two years ago to create a purchasing commission but the Government had to withdraw it owing tc. the opposition it evoked, especially from their own supplies. Last session the Bill was again introduced for the purpose of creating a purchasing commission. Once more strong opposition to that Bill was expressed on both sides and the measure was not pressed to a vote. However we all read in the press, some time after the session was through, that an Order in Council had been passed creating such a commission. I now desire to know if the vote which is covered by this item is to pay the expenses of that purchasing commission created by OrdeT in Council, and I would like to have all the details and particulars surrounding the creation of that body.


Charles Joseph Doherty: It ik quite true that there was a Bill before the House last year looking to the creation of a statutory purchasing commission with authority conferred upon it to do certain things in virtue of the provisions of that measure. However the proposed Bill did not pass and did not become law. Nevertheless, last session Parliament voted money to provide for the expenses of a purchasing commission to be constituted by the Government. That purchasing commission was constituted by Order in Council, but the Order in Council did not purport to confer upon the commission so named any qualities, functions, or powers special to itself as a distinct and independent body. It was a commission appointed by the Governor in Council -who had the general responsibility for the supervision and direction of the purchasing to be done by the different departments-to exercise, under the authority of the Governor in Council, powers of supervision and direction. For a commission of that kind money was voted at the last session of Parliament and the present item, as 1 understand it, is to provide for the expenses of a commission of that nature-a body quite distinct from what had been proposed to be created under statutory authority with independent powers of its own.


Ernest Lapointe: Then this commission does not exist under any statutory authority?


Charles Joseph Doherty: There is no specific
statute creating that body but, as I have endeavoured to point out, the Government has the responsibility for all the purchasing that is done. Having that responsibility it has the power to direct and the power to supervise, and it has constituted the body which I have just mentioned to exercise these powers of supervision and direction under the authority of the Governor in Council.


Ernest Lapointe: But the will of Parliament-as expressed last year and in the preceding year by members on both sides of the House-was that the purchasing ought to be done as formerly for every department. I would like to know from the minister what is the difference between this purchasing commission, appointed by Order in Council against the will of Parliament, and the commission that it was proposed to create under the Bill that was withdrawn last year?


Charles Joseph Doherty: The hon. gentleman
talks about a commission being appointed against the will of Parliament. He completely ignores what I have twice stated, and what he will find to be the fact if he refers to the Estimates of last year and to the Hansard reports of the discussion on the item which provided for the expenses of a purchasing commission. That item was adopted by Parliament after it was quite clear that the Bill was not being proceeded with. It was voted after an explanation which-as nearly as one can affirm when speaking from memory-was identical with the explanation I have given now. It was not a vote to provide for a statutory commission, because there had been no statute, but it was explained to the House what was sought to be done.


Ernest Lapointe: What I am anxious to know is the difference between the functions and the work of this commission and the one whose appointment Parliament refused to sanction?


Charles Joseph Doherty: The difference is in the powers and authority to be exercised. The commission which it was proposed to create by statute was one upon which Parliament if the statute had been passed -would have conferred directly the power of doing the purchasing, to be exercised independently of authority from the Government; whereas the body that is now constituted is delegated by the Governor in Council to carry out its duties of super-
[Mr. Lapointe. 1
vising and directing the purchasing, and has no independent authority derived from Parliament.


Joseph Archambault: Who are the present members of the purchasing commission?


Charles Joseph Doherty: The commission as at present constituted, is composed of the Minister of Interior, Mr. Howard, and Colonel Affleck.


Mr. ARCH AMB  AULT@: Who is the Minister of Interior?


Charles Joseph Doherty: Sir James Lougheed.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: Would it not have
been better, Mr. Chairman, when Parliament had expressed itself so emphatically against the formation of one sort of body -I hope the minister will not be impatient with me because I am always very good natured, respectful and polite towards him-


Robert Hamilton Butts: Do not lay it on too thick now.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: I will endeavour to be nothing less than courteous and polite to the Minister of Justice, and I hope that equal courtesy and politeness will be shown by hon. members opposite. The point I wish to make is this: We had a debate upon the purchasing commission last year, and I think the session before, and we all remember the eloquent and businesslike speech made by the member for Lanark (Mr. Stewart) upon the subject. Now the Minister of Justice says this purchasing commission is, in some way or another, different from the purchasing commission which it was proposed to create by the Bill of last session, and if I mistake not by the Bill of the session before. Well, as I understand it, a purchasing commission must of necessity be a commission having to do with purchasing or buying, whether created by a Bill or by an Order in Council. The question I would like to put to the minister with all respect is this: Would it not have been well when Parliament declined to authorize it not to have endeavoured to introduce this purchasing commission-even though it differs somewhat from its predecessor-through a side door by way of Order in Council rather than through the front door by way of a Bill in this House?
' Mr. DOHERTY: That must be done by a Bill, but Parliament having intimated that it did not desire the appointment of this statutory commission, the idea was aban-

doned. Parliament then said by its vote: We do authorize you to create a commission acting under the authority of the Governor in Council, and we are so satisfied you should do it that we vote you some $80,000 for the purpose. Could there be any clearer expression of the will of Parliament? They are two perfectly different things, Parliament realized that, and consequently while Parliament did not want a statutory commission, it did vote to the Government the money to provide this supervisory body to assist it in the performance of the duty that lies upon it to see that the purchasing is done to the best advantage, subject of course to any statutory rules there may he with regard to it which we have hot sought to interfere with.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: Would the minister explain the modus operandi followed by this new and alleged unobjectionable purchasing commission?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I am not in a position to give the details of their operations, but in substance their functions are supervisory, if I may so express it, and advisory to the different bodies connected with each of the departments. I may say, as being that branch of it which comes most under my cognizance, that the purchasing in my own department proceeds in this way. The officers, say, in charge of the penitentiaries make requisitions for what they require, and those requisitions go in the first instance to the superintendent of the penitentiary. If he approves then they go to the purchasing agent of the Department of Justice.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: The requisitions are made out by whom?


Charles Joseph Doherty: By the warden of the penitentiary. He requires certain things, and he forwards his requisitions to the superintendent. Each requisition is sent to him for his approval or criticism. From him it goes to the purchasing agent, who also goes over it and-


Mr.   McM ASTER@: Is that purchasing agent an officer of the commission or of the department?


Charles Joseph Doherty: He is an officer of the Department of Justice. If my memory serves me right, there is a distinction in amount, and where the amount involved is under $500 the requisition goes to the deputy minister, and if he approves, it is returned to the superintendent. It is then submitted by the purchasing agent to the supervision of this purchasing commission,
and the calling for tenders and so forth is done under and by the advice of that commission. When the tenders come in they are opened by one or the other purchasing agents of the department or the commission, hut both are present or are represented. That, so far as I understand it is the modus operandi.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: As so many shifts are made are not the papers likely to be lost?


Charles Joseph Doherty: We are not anxious about the papers getting lost, but we are anxious to provide every possible check to see that we have our purchasing made with as close an eye to the public interest as is possible. If the hon. gentleman would reflect for a moment I think he would see the utility of having the co-operation of a body which comes into contact with all the purchasing of all the departments and with the individual officers of those departments. By this means you put at the service of all departments the united knowledge of all the transactions and you get the whole experience derived from the purchasing for all of the departments put at the service of each of them. Surely that is a very substantial advantage; at least it seems so to the Government. When Parliament authorized the Government to provide that additional protection for the public purse the Government felt it was doing nothing but its duty in providing it.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: As far as I have followed the minister I understand the modus operandi to be this. For instance, the warden of the penitentiary wants, say, twenty beds. He writes out his requisition, which would amount to less than $500 I presume. Then he submits that first of all to the superintendent of the penitentiary; the superintendent sends the requisition along to the department's purchasing agent, and as it is under $500 it goes to the deputy minister, and is finally returned to the superintendent. Am I right?


Charles Joseph Doherty: It is returned to him for the purpose of reaching the commission. That is the machinery.


Mr.   McM ASTER@: Then does it go to the purchasing commission?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I am not in a position to say whether the purchasing agent carries the document there or not, but it gets to the purchasing commission. The purchasing agent proceeds then under the direction of and with the cooperation of the purchasing commission. Let me point

out that perhaps for our purposes I have begun too far back. There are two substantial things to be decided; in the first place, should these articles be bought; in the second place, if they are to be bought, what is the most advantageous way of buying them.


Rodolphe Lemieux: It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that you have created a body which would not be needed at all if the departments were administered as they should be with honesty and efficiency. I do not see why we should spend $90,000 a year to create an outside body from the various departments to control those departments. I have had some experience in the administration of public affairs as the head of a large spending department, and I know it was not necessary to have an outside body to judge whether or not the expenditure proposed in that department was needed. In those days they proceeded in this way. Suppose in the Post Office Department paper or ink or stamping machines or letter boxes were required, these were looked after by the officer in the department itself in charge of equipment. The requisition was made by that officer to the deputy minister, and the deputy minister presented it to the minister. If relatively a small amount not over $5,000, it was not necessary that the minister should bring the requisition before his colleagues in council; if over that amount he would have to get an Order in Council. It is the same in all departments. In the Public Works Department, for instance, you cannot go over that amount of $5,000 unless you get special authority in the Estimates or from Council.


Mr. JACOBS:: Except in the Marine Department.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Except in emergency cases, and then we know how the Audit Act provides: So I do not see the reason why the Government when it had a number of officers trained in the service since confederation, should consider it necessary to spend this large sum of $90,000 on that outside body particularly when the House on two occasions declined to permit the creation of such a body. Even on the other side of the House I remember hon. gentlemen objected very strenuously to its creation. In spite of that the Government, after being refused that authority last session, created a purchasing commission. Now during the period of the war as ex-
penditure was due, when there was really an emergency and you had no time to consider very much the prices, for time was the essence of all the contracts, I am ready to admit that under those conditions it was a good thing to have such a commission. I have already said that, as to the personnel of that commission during the war, certainly I found no fault, but the war being over, and departments having resumed their natural functions, the various departments came within the normal conditions, as we all did, and it was the duty of the Government to do away with any such expenditure. Such was the desire of Parliament, because on two occasions the then President of the Privy Council was very insistent that this vote should carry, and that this authority be given to this new body. Parliament refused. The members on this side of the House fought as strenuously as we did those on the other side of the House. I say, then, this lack of confidence is in their own followers, but I would place the lack of Confidence above the followers. It is a lack of confidence in the authority of Parliament that has been shown in the present instance by the Government, and I have no hesitation in proposing to do away with that expenditure.
I would, therefore, move that that item be struck out.


Michael Steele: I would like to point out that a motion to strike out would not be in order.


Mr. BELAND:: For what reason? The Deputy Speaker has ruled, quoting May, that a sheet and schedule should be annexed to the resolution, specifying every amount and each amount from each department. That would carry with it permission for the committee to discuss any of these special items mentioned in the list that should be annexed to the resolution, and if we grant to the committee the right of discussing each item included in the list that should be annexed, then it goes without argument that we have the right equally to move for a reduction, of the striking out, of such an item in that list. I think that my hon. friend the member for Maisonneuve, has a perfect right, and that it is in keeping with the ruling of the Deputy Speaker to move that one-sixth of the amount in the main Estimates for the purchasing commission should be struck out. I would like to have your ruling upon that.


Georges Henri Boivin: A motion of that nature is purely a negative motion which,

under the rules of the House, is never in order.


Ernest Lapointe: I would like to discuss the point of order before you give a ruling. I quite understand that if we were moving to strike out the whole resolution it would be a purely negative motion, but that is not what my hon. friend for Maisonneuve is doing. The resolution is general. It asks to us to vote $70,000,000 en bloc, and my hon. friend for Maisonneuve asks that out of this amount of $70,000,000 an amount of $80,000 be struck out. Surely this is not a motion to negative the whole resolution, and the chairman specifically stated in his ruling that we would have to move to strike out any of the items forming the whole resolution.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I think the hon. gentleman is not quite right as to what is before the committee. In order to get a clear appreciation of it, let us understand what the real practice is, what we are talking about, what we are voting on and what flows from that. In the first instance, we do not, by this vote, either challenge, approve or endorse a single item in the Estimates. The whole of them are left open absolutely. I will take what has been the practice of this House. At page 5595 of the Hansard of 1903 the then Finance Minister said:
I propose that the House give us a vote of credit for one-fifth of the total sum. The effect of this will be to give us a Supply for about two months. All the matters that can be discussed in connection with these votes will, of course, still remain before the House, and we will have to take these up item by item for the purpose of obtaining the remaining four-fifths of the Estimates. So that the course we now propose does not in any way restrict the fullest and freest discussion. It simply facilitates the granting of a partial supply which will be very much needed before the end of the present month.
And the then leader of the Opposition said:
The only question which suggests itself to me is as to the effect of the proposed resolution upon items which there might be a motion to strike out, or upon items which eventually might be dropped.
That is the furthest the hon. gentleman ever went. The Minister of Finance said:
I admit that would be a proper criticism; and if any particular item were indicated as likely to be the subject of debate I would strike it out of the present motion, but if such a motion should be presented later it would apply to the four-fifths.


Frank S. Cahill: That is all based on understanding.


Henry Lumley Drayton: To this effect: that every item is open to the fullest discussion.


Samuel William Jacobs: What are we here for?


Henry Lumley Drayton: To enable business to be carried on; to try to get money to continue to do business here. There has been ten times more discussion this year than there has ever been before.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Will my hon. friend
allow me to say that if he were debating this point with the decision of the Chairman in his mind he would probably alter his judgment. What I am asking now of this committee is that a certain specified amount be omitted from the schedule which is supposed to he annexed to the motion which was made by my hon. friend a moment ago. Suppose that my motion is ruled out, my hon. friend will realize that one-sixth of an item which I want completely omitted will be voted upon. Is that logical? I am against this whole amount which gives life to a commission and a body, the existence of which was refused on two previous occasions by this Parliament, and if we now vote one-sixth of the $80,000 the principle is admitted, and later on it will he absolutely illogical for me to comment and propose its omission. But my friend, as I submit with all due courtesy, has not lived up to the decision of the Chair. The Chairman quoted from May at page 479 as follows:
The motion by which a grant on account is proposed follows the customary form. The motion states the total sum required; and the various amounts needed for each department, which compose that sum, are stated in a schedule appended to the resolution. The question proposed thereon from the Chair follows the terms of the resolution, and places the total sum, the aggregate grant, before the committee for its decision; and upon that question amendments can be moved for the reduction of the whole grant, or for the reduction or omission of the items whereof the grant is composed.
I claim, Mr. Chairman, with all due deference to my hon. friend, that when I proposed to have this item 325 omitted from the schedule, I am simply living up to the decision which was rendered by my hon. friend the Chairman of the committee, because if I vote one-sixth now, without being allowed the privilege, which under ordinary circumstances I could not be denied, it is no use discussing it in any shape or form at any later date.


John Wesley Edwards: If the hon. member votes one-sixth interim Supply, does he say that he is precluded, if that vote carries,

from moving to strike out the whole of this item subsequently.


Rodolphe Lemieux: When one-sixth is voted, yes.


John Wesley Edwards: It has been done from time immemorial. I have noticed session after session, when I was on the Opposition side, that the interim Supply was voted and whole items were subsequently cut out or reduced. I can refer to items in regard to which that was done.


Rodolphe Lemieux: When this one-sixth is voted, if it is voted, without giving opportunity to move an amendment, if one-sixth is voted on this particular item, there will be a Bill based on the resolution. It will be sanctioned by His Excellency the Governor General, it will be the law of the land, and no power on earth can do away with that one-sixth. It will be voted, and it can be spent at the sweet will of the Government. I object, not to the whole grant- because we recognize His Majesty's Government must be carried on-but I object to that particular item; so did my hon. friend from Simcoe (Mr. Currie). I am not sure if my hon. friend did not object to that item at the previous session. My hon. friend from Brantford (Mr. Cock-shutt) objected to it. Several of the hon. gentlemen on the other side objected to it. That is not factious opposition.


John Wesley Edwards: Absolutely.


Rodolphe Lemieux: No.


John Wesley Edwards: My hon. friend takes objection-


Rodolphe Lemieux: To one item.


John Wesley Edwards: And the hon. gentleman behind him takes exception to another item, and so each one goes ahead and absolutely nullifies the vote we propose to put through, keeping the thing going for a month, if necessary, in regard to this interim Supply-absolute obstruction, nothing else.


Robert Hamilton Butts: My hon. friend from Mai-sonneuve is a lawyer, I understand,-perhaps like myself, not very much of a lawyer. He knows, however, that old expression of the law that speaks about the omnipotence of Parliament.


An hon. MEMBER:: Where is that?


Robert Hamilton Butts: In Blackstone. If we pass a vote to-night, what difference does it make whether we are right or wrong? Parliament is omnipotent.


Georges Henri Boivin: If I may be allowed, it will, perhaps, be easy for me to meet the wishes of hon. gentlemen on both sides of the House by slightly changing the wording of the amendment as proposed. I understand, before I entered the chamber, that an amendment was moved by the hon. member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) to strike out item 325 from the schedule to the Bill. Strickly speaking, as was pointed out by the hon. member who occupied the Chair, the amendment in that form would not be in order because you would be omitting $80,442.96 from the total vote, whereas I think the intention of the hon. member is to omit one-sixth of that amount. He certainly has a right to omit from the total amount, one-sixth of the amount of this item.
/j5lr. LEMIEUX:	That is correct.


Georges Henri Boivin: I would suggest that the amendment be made in this form :
That the total amount mentioned in the resolution he reduced by the sum of $13,407.16, being one-sixth, of the amount of item No. 325 for salaries and contingencies of the Purchasing commission and that said item be not included in the schedule to said resolution.


Rodolphe Lemieux: That meets my intention. I had not made the calculation, but I certainly said that I moved to reduce thig item by one-sixth.
/


Henri Sévérin Béland: The Chairman has
figured this out accurately; I made it out myself that one-sixth amounted to $13,407.16. I have to differ with the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Edwards), in his contention that, when these $13,000 odd is voted, if later, when the House is in Committee of Supply and item No. 325, amount $80,442.96, is under consideration, an hon. member should move to strike it out and the committee should support the amendment, the amount of $80,442.96 would be struck out of the public expenditure of this country. I will try to explain to my hon. friend how this may come about. It is intended now to get from the committee a vote equal to one-sixth of the total amount of the Estimates. This vote would cover about two months of the fiscal year which commenced on April 1. Let us suppose now that the session, lasts until July, and further, that the item in question is brought down for the consideration of the committee some time in July. Is it not probable that the $13,407.16 that we would vote to-night, might be expended? What recourse will my hon. friend have to get this money back into the treasury, if, in accord-

ance with a Bill passed by this Parliament to-night, or to-morrow, or next week, the minister is permitted to expend the money? There is no recourse whatever. The $13,000 will be spent.


John Wesley Edwards: My answer is, that
in voting one-sixth of the total Supply, you are not separating each individual amount. If you were separating each individual amount in the one-sixth and applying the vote to each individual item, my hon. friend's contention would hold good. You are voting one-sixth of the total amount, and as I understand the ruling of the Chairman, that does not preclude any person from subsequently striking out any item in the Estimates in whole or in part.


Henry Herbert Stevens: This amount is largely for salaries of clerks and officials of this commission, so-called. Two weeks have already passed since the beginning of the fiscal year and there is no money to pay them for the two weeks. This institution is carrying on business. By this amendment, if it carries, we refuse Supply for amounts already in a sense ex-
11 p.m. pended, and so close this institution right up. When I say "already expended" I mean that services have been rendered to the country by these officials and nothing has been paid. So much for that part of the matter. I hesitate to delay the committee, but I am a member who is wholly in favour of this purchasing department, and I will give one or two simple illustrations of its value. I have not, under my hand, information that I had on a former occasion. Take, for instance, the question of purchasing of bedding. I understand some of my hon. friends say that they do not want a general discussion of this item, but in view of the opposition made to it, I have a right to express my views in support of it. I am opposed to the striking out of this item for the reasons already mentioned, and this additional reason, that this commission has given good service and has saved a good deal of money to the country, and that if the item were under proper consideration, we might have full information to that effect. Before the committee passes upon this item, we ought to have before us full information as to the value of the services of the commission.. For those reasons I support the passing of this one-sixth vote to pay the expenses of the commission up to the present time and to continue it until the item is under consideration.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend says
that he is in favour of this body called the purchasing commission. I respect his views; but unfortunately, he was in a minority, and the Government chose to ignore the will of Parliament expressed during two different sessions. My hon. friend says: "The poor officers of that body are awaiting their salaries." I have much sympathy for them, but the responsible party is the Government. Why did the Government, in spite of Parliament, in spite of the expression of opinion on both sides of the House, immediately after the session was over, ignore the will of Parliament and create that body? Parliament is supreme. The hon. member for Cape Breton South and Richmond (Mr. Butts), said a moment ago that Parliament was omnipotent. I do not like that expression, but let us say that it is the true expression. Parliament has not been omnipotent in the present instance; the will of Parliament has been disregarded.


Robert Hamilton Butts: The opposition was weak.


Rodolphe Lemieux: The Government assumed to itself the will of Parliament and created that body. I have much sympathy for the officers of the commission, who, as my hon. friend says, are awaiting their salaries, but the country is entitled to be respected. Members on both sides represent the electors of this country, we have been sent here to check the expenditures of the Government, and not a cent can be spent by this Government without its being voted by Parliament. Parliament has refused on two occasions to vote that amount, to create that body.


Charles Joseph Doherty: A vote was passed last year.


Rodolphe Lemieux: But the vote was to meet a condition to be created by Parliament. An amount was put in the Estimates, but along with this amount a Bill was introduced, and that Bill was combatted by both sides of the House and was finally withdrawn. Yet as soon as Parliament prorogued and the members dispersed, the Government took upon itself to create that body, ignoring the will of this House.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I am sure the hon. member would not want to mislead intentionally. Parliament voted that amount of money, after Parliament knew that no Act was going to be passed, for the purpose of providing for the totally different body which, I have pointed out, was explained at the

time and has been explained since. When the hon. gentleman persists and will persist in saying that this commission was created against the will of Parliament, he persists in absolutely confusing two totally different things, one thing which Parliament said it would not have, and another thing which Parliament said it was willing to provide for, one thing that took the absolute control out of the hands of the executive Government to put it into the hands of a body created by statute, and a totally different thing which, leaving the control and the responsibility in the hands of the executive Government, provided for their having suitable agents to aid in the carrying out of that business. Whatever may be right or may be wrong about the principle of the commission, when Parliament comes to deal with the other five-sixths, it will have that principle before it to deal with. What is it that the hon. members' amendment asks us to do? It asks us to say that these clerks and employees, who are engaged in a presently existing service, as regards which it is not anticipated that we may for some time reach the consideration of the item as a whole providing for that expenditure, and who will necessarily go on working in the interval, shall work for two months for nothing. Parliament will be in a position to decide upon the entire principle when we come to deal with the five-sixths. It does not commend itself to my judgment to suggest that, before we come to deal with the entire principle and to determine it, we should take off that two months' pay from those persons whose operations will go on in the meantime. Let us get down to common sense and realize what it is that is before us, however we may technically discuss this matter. One thing is beyond peradventure, that the worst that can happen in regard to anyone of these items is that two months expenditure could be made even though Parliament should ultimately determine not to carry on the operation at all. And when it is the case, as in this particular instance, that the worst thing that can happen is that two months' pay will go to officers who will have done two months' work-even if Parliament finally decided not to carry on this work for the future-I do sumbit to the common-sense judgment of the House that the right time to settle the principle is when you are dealing with the great and substantial vote, and when you can deal with it and settle it once and for all, and not endeavour to do so when it is merely 
a question of voting two months' pay for all these employees.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Surely my right hon.
friend would not think that I would misrepresent the facts of the case.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I did not say so.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I inferred that from the argument my right hon. friend advanced a moment ago.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I think the hon. gentleman does misunderstand the facts of the case.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I do not misunderstand them and I am young enough to have a good memory. I tell my hon. friend that during the period of the war a commission was instituted by the Government with a view to the purchase of the various equipments that were necessary, and in order to review some of the war contracts. That was the commission presided over by Sir Hermisdas Laporte. After the commission had completed its work, and after the war was over, it made a report asking the Government to make it a permanent body, representing that it would be an excellent idea if there was a permanent purchasing commission. That idea was embodied in a Bill which was introduced two years ago by the then President of the Privy Council (Mr. Rowell). It was combatted with much vigor by gentlemen on both sides and the measure was withdrawn. Last year it was decided to re-introduce the Bill embodying the exact principles cited a moment ago by my hon. friend and, under the assumption that Parliament this time would not oppose the legislation, an amount was plated in the Estimates for the purpose of creating the organization. But Parliament-with a persistence that I can only admire-again made its opposition felt, and again members on both sides stood firm in their objections. I see my hon. friend from Dufferin (Mr. Best) shaking his head but he was one of those who continued to oppose the Bill-in fact there were many on the Government side who took that course. Have not the various ministers in the Government the necessary authority to control the expenditures in their departments, and have they not enough confidence in their own personal honesty to exercise, that control? Why should they have such an external body as this to purchase the supplies needed by their departments and to supervise the acts of their employees? There is in every department the necessary machinery

to supervise the purchasing of supplies and the purchasing of equipment, and there is no need for such a body as this. Mr. Chairman, we cannot understand how the Minister of Justice can so explain this item, in view of the withdrawal of the Bill referred to, as to make it clear, in his own way,, that it is a totally different body from the one contemplated last year and the year before. I see hon. gentlemen opposite me who expressed opposition to this proposal, and I trust their memory and their honour in this matter. Is not this item regarded as a way out of the impasse in which the former President of the Privy Council found himself after the experience of the last two sessions of Parliament? He could not succeed in passing the legislation because it was opposed as much by members on the Government side as by members on this side. And yet the Government now comes forward with this proposal. They have ignored and disregarded the opinion of Parliament, but they now come here and say "You must pass this item because we have decided by Order-in-Council to create this body in spite of your opposition." I have more regard for the authority of Parliament than to expect that such a proposition will be successful. I say that Parliament is the supreme master in this question, and we have the right to say now if we approve of the principle involved. I say further that if we now vote one-sixth of the Estimate we are committed to the principle which Parliament last year, and the year before, opposed. Therefore, let us reduce this item by one-sixth, and Parliament will then have expressed its opinion as to the necessity of having such an external body foisted on the country when the country is simply hungry for economy and still more economy. My right hon. friend may think I am lacking in sincerity, but I hope not, because from what is happening outside and from what news he may receive-not only from Canada but from Great Britain-he must realize that this great country of ours is in very serious , difficulties at this very moment. Why, Mr. Chairman, is it not a time not only to speak of economy but to practise it? There is a payment due and overdue in London-


John Dowsley Reid: Oh, no.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes, that payment was not contingent on the arbitration in connection with the Grand Trunk. I remember well the legislation passed by Parliament, and this payment of the coupons of the Grand Trunk was not contingent on
the arbitration now going on. Yet the shareholders of that company are denied their payments-a payment guaranteed by the Dominion of Canada. People say that there is no money in the Exchequer to meet the obligation of Canada. I do not believe that but at all events, be that as it may, in view of that circumstance, and in view of many others, is it not time for us not only to speak of economy but to practise it? The Minister of Finance should not only practise economy in the ordinary sense of the term but he should adopt a policy of cheese-paring. We are living in a fool's paradise. We have been so accustomed to speak of millions, and even billions, during the last few years that we have lost all sense of proportion, and the country is facing a very heavy bill of taxation. If you do not cut down the expenditure wl^en it is useless expenditure, as in the present instance, how can you ask the people of this country to tax themselves to the limit as they are doing? They have taxed themselves last year and they are ready to do it again provided there is adequate justification. But who is there in the Government who is practising economy, instead of merely preaching it? Look at the volume of the Estimates with whicn Parliament is now called upon to deal- the figures are simply appalling. We are spending our time looking at each other and deprecating the huge financial commitments of the country and yet no one applies the pruning knife. Why not begin by applying the pruning knife to this very unnecessary appendage to the various departments of the Government?


Mr. NICHOLSON (Algoma) :: I would like to concur in the -idea that it is impossible for the committee, with the information at present available to discuss such items as this with intelligence. If we did so in regard to this item we would necessarily have the right to discuss every other item in the Estimates in the same way. The question has been raised here as to whether we commit ourselves to the whole of the items in the Estimates by simply passing one-sixth. Hon. members opposite have said that we cannot consistently move to reduce a single item if we pass this one-sixth to-night. But I would remind hon. gentlemen that on June 30, last, as will be seen by a reference to page 4549 of last year's Hansard, the leader of the Opposition, when the Committee of Supply were considering an item of $6,500,000 for the Permanent Force in the Estimate of the Department

of Militia, moved to reduce the item by $1,000,000. Was he within his rights in doing so or was he not? Without presuming to give an opinion as to what the parliamentary practice is, I submit that common-sense would suggest that the hon. gentleman was within his rights and yet interim Supply had previously been voted on this item as well as on all other items. I think, if my memory serves me right, without referring to the records, the leader of the Opposition, subsequent to that date last year, voted to reduce several other items in the Estimates. I presume he will do the same this year; it will be his right to do so. There are items in the Estimates which hon. members may wish to scrutinize, and even to criticise, and they can only do that when the minister in charge of the department, with his officials, is here to explain why the vote is being asked and what work is being accomplished in connection with the expenditures for which authority is sought. Again I say that if the contention is sound that we cannot reduce or change any item because of voting this interim Supply of one-sixth, then the committee might just as well vote the one-sixth and go home, because there is no use discussing the Estimates in any shape or form.


Henri Sévérin Béland: I am absolutely unable to see the point that is being made by the hon. gentleman. We never contended that we could not move later on to strike out five-sixths of the total amount. Of course, we can do it because five-sixths have not been voted. But our contention is that once you have voted one-sixth, and it is expended, surely my hon. friend will not pretend that you can strike it out. That is the point we are making.


John Allister Currie: That is not the point.


Henri Sévérin Béland: My hon. friend says
that it is possible for you later to move that one-sixth or a certain amount or any portion of an item may be stricken out; we know that very well. In the case my hon. friend has quoted of the leader of the Opposition last year moving that an item of, I think he said, $6,000,000 should be reduced by $1,000,000 we have an example that it can be done. There is no objection to that, and we have never said anything to the contrary. He could have moved that the $6,000,000 be reduced by $5,000,000 for that matter, because the $5,000,000 had not been voted; but as to the sixth million, he could not have moved to reduce or strike it out because probably it had been ex-
pended by that time. My hon. friend sees the point?


Charles Joseph Doherty: It seems to me quite clear from the line that is now being adopted, and while I have respect for the sincerity of hon. gentlemen, from what seems to me to be quite manifest as the end if not sought to be obtained, the end that will be reached by this method of dealing with a motion for interim Supply, namely, to prevent us dealing with this motion within the time in which it is required. If hon. gentlemen persist in ignoring what is clear I think beyond the possibility of doubt, that every principle remains intact, even after we have voted this one-sixth, and every resolution and the principle underlying it is still open for discussion to everybody concerned-


Joseph Archambault: Will my hon. friend allow me a question? If we vote this one-sixth for instance for this purchasing commission, which is $13,000, will the Government have the right to spend that $13,000?


Charles Joseph Doherty: Certainly there would be a right to spend that $13,000, which will involve this awful thing-


Joseph Archambault: Will he allow me another question?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Charles Joseph Doherty: I do not propose to be cross-examined.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: You cannot stand it.


Joseph Archambault: We are in committee.


Charles Joseph Doherty: The hon. gentleman
says I cannot stand it. I am a man of pretty equable temper and considerable patience-


Samuel William Jacobs: Hear, hear.


Charles Joseph Doherty: But I am in the face of opposition that can wear out even my patience when it becomes so perfectly manifest that we are having an attempt simply to defeat the purpose of this motion for interim Supply. The motion is valuable only on condition that it is promptly passed. The only thing that justifies it is that we are called upon to take immediate action, even at the risk of paying a few men's salaries for a couple of months where we might decide in the future to abolish their office. We are asked to take that risk. Why? Because the public business must be carried on, and because we have behind us

the experience of parliaments from time immemorial. Interim votes of this kind, without splitting them up and trying to cut down particular items, have been passed year after year, and it has been so conceded that hon. gentlemen have thought that it was necessarily a matter of common consent. Now, in the face of that I beg to move, Mr. Chairman, that the further consideration of this resolution be postponed.


Georges Parent: The old trick.


Georges Henri Boivin: Mr. Doherty moves that the further consideration of the proposed resolution be now postponed. Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Ernest Lapointe: I understand that we are prevented asking any questions about advance Estimates?


Georges Henri Boivin: The motion made by the Minister of Justice is not debatable under the new rule 17a, and therefore, it cannot be debated.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: It is just a question of debate.


Ernest Lapointe: Is this fair treatment of Parliament?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: It is gagging.


Rodolphe Lemieux: What becomes of my amendment?


Georges Henri Boivin: When the resolution is again before the committee the amendment must be disposed of.


Ernest Lapointe: The Government will not gain anything by this harsh action.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: The Tories are in.


Joseph Archambault: The Germans are here now.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Chairman, may I be allowed to ask a question?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


Georges Henri Boivin: The hon. leader of the Opposition has made a request that he be allowed to ask a question of the Government. Strictly speaking he would not have the right to do so, as there is now no resolution under consideration, but I feel sure that the privilege will be granted to him by unanimous consent of the committee.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would like to ask my right hon. friend if the Government has any obligation to meet these payments before the end of the present month?


Charles Joseph Doherty: I am not in a position to say on what dates all of these payments come due but certainly there must be innumerable payments which will become due before the end of this month.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Perhaps I could give some information which I know the hon member for Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) would be glad to get. He says that we are ignoring our responsibilities in the English money market. We want to be able to discharge them. He has expressed great anxiety that Canada's fair name is suffering in England. I may tell him and the committee that as a matter of fact payments there will become due within two days, and this interim Supply is to enable those payments to be discharged.
Canals-Welland ship canal construction, $5,000,000 ; Trent canal-construction and betterments, $339,000.


Joseph Archambault: Will the minister tell us what construction has been done this year on the Welland ship canal?


John Dowsley Reid: Four contractors have been working for the last two or three years.


Joseph Archambault: Were the contracts given by tender, and what were the amounts?


John Dowsley Reid: The original contracts were given by tender, but shortly after the war broke out those contracts were cancelled. Last year the officials of the department did not think that it was in the public interest to call for tenders on account of the very high cost of labour and materials, and contracts were given on a cost plus basis, terminable at any time and not to extend longer than December 31, last. At that time we again extended the contract for 1921 on the same basis. When we decided to do that last January we believed it would be far better if we could let the work by public tender. Accordingly the officials of the department were instructed to prepare plans and call for tenders at the earliest possible date. Plans were ready for section five and three tenders were received last Thursday.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Did the minister say there were five sections or four?


John Dowsley Reid: No. There are nine sections altogether, but prior to the war ten-



ders were called for and contracts let for sections 1, 2, 3 and 5, which were cancelled later as I have stated, and the contractors were allowed to continue on a cost plus basis. We received tenders for section 5 last Thursday, and an Order in Council will be passed to-morrow or next day awarding the contract. The other three sections on which work is continuing, on the cost plus basis, will be let by tender within a very short time just as soon as the officers of the department can get the specifications ready.


Joseph Archambault: What are the names of the present contractors?


Charles Joseph Doherty: If the hon. gentleman will pardon me for interrupting. It has
been suggested to me that we had a fairly long session last night we should not unduly prolong the sitting this afternoon. However, before moving that the committee rise, I desire Mr. Chairman, to give the following notice:
That at the next sitting of the Committee of Supply I shall move that the further consideration of Resolution No. 218 as printed at page 49 of the Estimates for the current fiscal year and the further consideration of the resolution proposed this day for interim Supply, shall be the first order of business of the committee and shall not further be postponed.
Progress reported.
On motion of Right Hon. Mr. Doherty the House adjourned at 11.45 p.m.


FIFTH SESSION - THIRTEENTH PARLIAMENT, 1921
[Stage Direction]
Abbreviations.-It., 2r., 3r., = first, second, or third reading. Admn.=Administration. Amdt.= Amendment. Com. = Committee. Dept. = Department. Div.=Division. Govt. = Government. M. = Motion. Neg.=Negatived. Qu. = Question.	Ref.-
Reference. Rep.=Report. Res.=Resolution. Sec. = Section.
Abbatoirs. See Health of Animals; Live stock
Abitibi District, 3075
Grievances of settlers, 2510
Accounts. See Finance; Public Accounts
Accredited Herd. See Health of Animals
Adams, Capt. Henry C., and Canadian Navy Enquiry, 901; qu. 1237
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 5, 40, 66, 110, 154, 188, 230, 244, 262, 313, 351, 397, 448, 479. Amdt. to Arndt. (Mr. Campbell), adjournment, neg.; Amdt. (Mr. Mackenzie King) non-confidence, neg. Address agreed to, 561
Ad Hoc Judge, 1084. See also Judges Act Amdt.
Adjournment. See House of Commons Administration of Justice. See Justice Admiralty Courts. See Vice Admiralty
Adulteration of Food Act Amdt.
Administration, 3129
Maple Products, 888. See also that title
Advisory Council of Scientic Research. See
Research
Aeronautics, etc. See Air Aeroplanes. See Air
Age of Consent. See Criminal Code Amdt.
Age Limit. See Prisons
Agenda. See Prime Ministers' Conference
Agrarian Party. See Progressive Party
Agricultural Colleges, 1034
Agricultural Gazette, 1074
Agricultural Implements, 91, 492, 417, 583, 666, 3179, 3372, 3394, 3492-6, 3508, 3631 United Grain Growers, and, 418-9
Agricultural Instruction, 1029
Agricultural Machinery (Standardization of Parts) 584; Res. (Mr. McCoig) 666; Amdt. (Mr. Renders) 670
Agricultural Shows, grants to,
M. (Mr. Archambault) 1238; withdrawn, 1247
Agricultural Societies, 1074. See also Exhibitions
Agriculture. See also Immigration; Soldier Settlement; Unemployment Agriculture Act in Great Britain, 3186 Aids to, 1245
Appropriations limited, 1029 Butter. See Dairying Industry Cold Storage warehouses, 1038 Conservation Commission, 3964 Cow-testing associations, 1036 Deputy Minister, salary, 950 Dairying. See that title Decline of in Great Britain, 3186, 3237 Department
Civil Service appointments, 1045 County fairs, assistance to, 1123 Deputy Minister, salary, 950 Estimates, 917, 1024, 1074, 1116, 4506-13 Destructive insect and Pest Act, 4512. See also that title
District Representatives, 1033-4 Duff, the late Hon. James, work of, 1033 Eggs. See that title
Experimental Farms, 4512. See also that title
Fruit inspection, 1041. See also Fruit Grasshopper plague, qu. 838, 1027 Health of Animals. See that title International Institute of, 1116 Land suitable for, 845, 872 Live stock. See that title
Volume I:: 1-1000	Volume II:	1001-2026	Volume III:	2027-3003


Volume IV:: 3005-4040	Volume V:	4041-4580

il

Agriculture.-Con.
National Dairy Council, 1126 Potato-growing and diseases, 1032-3, 3224, 3442-73, 3525 Production, 135-6, 872 Products, decline in value, 3487 Publications, 1073 Seed and Feed Control, 1125, 4513 Seed lairs, 1126 Seed Grain. See that title United States, in, 3188 Wright County, condition in, 922
Air Board, estimates, 3776
Air Force,
Camp Borden, qu. 1820, 3777 Preference in Civil Service appointments, 4483
Air Service, 3776 Forest patrol, 4495
Topographic Survey of Northern Canada, 856
Alaska boundary, 4494 Alberta
Coal, price at mine, 1251 Coal production. See Fuel Supply Problem, Natural Resources Highways, grants, qu. 821 Industrial Research Commission, 1267 Penitentiary. See Penitentiaries Prohibition plebiscite, 3901, 4374-88 Supreme Court, qu. 576
Alcohol. See also Customs and Excise; Inland Revenue; Prohibition; Proprietary; Special War Revenue Certificate of provincial analyst, 3786 Customs duty, 3705 Excise duty, 2725-6 For medicinal purposes, 3729, 3957
Alderson, Mr. George B.
Claim of for compensation, 924, 1052, 2270-4, 4508. See also Health of Animals
Algernon Rock pier, qu. 1383
Alice Arm, wharf, 3976
Aliens. See also Canadian Nationals; Dominion Elections; Immigration; Naturalization;
Franchise, and', 3103 Naturaliation, 2441
Wives of British Subjects. See Dominion Election Act Amdt. Bill
All Night Sitting. See House of Commons All Saints' Day. See Civil Service Holidays
Alpine Club, 4494
Alward, Mr., and Transcontinental, 1657
Ambassador at Washington, 185, 357, 525, qu. 671, 2400-23, 3635. See also Canadian Representation in the United States; Prime Ministers' Conference Delay in appointment, 786 Fordney Bill, 512. See also United States
Amendments to Supply. See Supply
American Consuls. See Customs and Excise Bill; Trade; Trade Commissioners
American Markets. See Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; Trade; United States
Amery, Col. L. S., 1532
Ames, Sir Herbert B. (St. Antoine) Resignation
Enquiry as to date, 1069
Received, 1001
Reported, 464, 469, 478, qu. 577 See also Representation
Amherst drill hall, 2739
Amqui Station, 382, 1176, 1233
Anderson, Mr. R. K. (Halton)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 235. Demand that Government resign-amendment introduces no new issue, 235; congratulations to mover and seconder-tributes to former Prime Ministers-speech of Leader of Opposition-Unemployment insurance -old age pensions-League of Nations; tariff, 238; Alliance with Agrarian party; leader of Agrarians an out-and-out free trader

by-election in Peterborough-principles of Liberalism, 239; invitation to Liberal Unionists to cross floor-mandate of Government-immediate election would delay redistribution; increased representation, 240; seceders should have consulted their electors-Laurier administration and the tariff, 241; Daniel Webster and the clamourers, 242
Budget, 3348. Canada's debt and annual growth of expenditures, 3348; increase in trade, 3349; increase in population, 3349; Canada's present and future growth and progress, 3351; moderate protection necessary, 3351; reciprocity with United States, 3353; home market and transportation, 3354; fruit growing, 3354; Opposition and protection, 3355; Farmers' Party platform, 3356;


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INDEX-1921
[Stage Direction]
iil
Anderson, Mr. R. K.-Con.
Budget-Con.
Grain Growers' Grain Company, 3357, 3360; Winnipeg strike, 3359; Depopulation of rural sectionsk and increased price of commodities, 3361 Feeding Stuffs Act, qu. 965 Inspection districts, qu. 1624 Toronto-Guelph-Sarnia highway, etc., qu. 4252
Andrews, Mr. George W. (Centre Winnipeg) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 469. Congratulations to Prime Minister; free trade and protection- the "yellow peril", 471-markets of the world, 472; exports; Farmers' Platform; abuse of tariff no argument against protection, 473; free trade in England; armaments do not prevent war; Assembly of the League of Nations-the amendment; redistribution; election, 474 Canadian National Railways
Special Committee reference to, M. (Mr. Meighen), 1803 Housing, 1152
Oleomargarine Act Arndt., 3881 Prime Ministers' Conference, 2678 Proportional representation, 1537
Anglo-Japanese Alliance, 2637-9, 2357-60
Animal Contagious Diseases Act
Administration, 1048 Powers under, 4508
See also Health of Animals
Animal Contagious Diseases Act Arndt. Bill
Res. 2031; lr., 2942; 2r., com., 3r., 3011
Animals, Cruelty to. See Criminal Code Amdt.
Annapolis County Fruit growing in, 1046 Inspectors, 1041
Annapolis public building, 2741
Annexation. See United States
Annual Drill. See Militia
Annuities Branch, 4524
Anodynes, elixirs, etc., duty on, 3709
Anse Aux Gascons wharf, 3991
Anse St. Jean, wharf, 4536
Antelope in Western Canada, qu. 1134
Anticosti Island, squatters on, 1514
Antigonish Public Works office, 2818
Appendices
Canadian National Railways Employees' pay, qu. 1737, 1815
Apples. See also Fruit Export to Great Britain, 1501, qu. 1714 Markets for, 1469 Tariff on, 126
Appropriation Acts
1.	Bill No. 42 (for 1921-2, for $71,499,703.70).
Res. 1674; 2001; lr., 2045; 2r., com., 2100; 3r„ 2116
2.	Bill No. 222 (for 1920-1, for $14,681,S10.-
14; and for 1921-22, $371,044,471.26). Res., lr„ 2r., com., 3r., 4577
Arbitration. See Grand Trunk
Arbitrations and Awards, Railways, 3015
Arbitrators, Judges as. See Judges Act Amdt.
Archambault, Mr. Joseph (Chambly and Ver-chdres)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 244. Grand Trunk employees' pensions, 244-omissions from Speech

dissolution-election, 1917; "Knots and Lashings"-railway problem, 245; Can. Govt. Merchant Marine-Prime Ministers' Conference, 246; Imperial relations; League of Nations; no mandate -Purchasing Commission, 247-overtures to Quebec, 248; Mr. Gauthier, severance of connection with Liberal party, 250; inconsistent attitudes towards tariff, 251; Lafontaine and Cartier, 252; Minister of Immigration, 253 Agricultural Shows, M., 1238-46; withdrawn, 1247
Auditor General's Report, 1385 Banff National Park, 4495 Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill, 2911 Board of Commerce, qu. 599, 602 Budget, 3557. Financial operations, 3557; rigid economy in national expenditure necessary, 3558; military expenditure, 3558; Winnipeg strike, 3560; Grand Trunk, shareholders, 3560; Prime Minister playing the game, 3562; Credits to Greece and Roumania, 3563; Members of Parliament directors of companies selling to Government, 3564 Canada Grain Act, 1442 Canada Shipping Act Amdt. Bill, 2230 Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 2252
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Archambault, Mr. Joseph-Con.
Canadian Government Merchant Marine Proposed Special Committee, 1440 "Squatter" and "Pioneer," Ss., qu. 1382 Canadian Nationals Definition Act, 2032 Canadian National Railways .French language, 4331-3 Special Committee, reference to,
M. (Mr. Meighen) 1767-97 Canadian Press Limited, qu. 564 Civil Service, religious holidays, 1384; qu. 1499
Confidential messengers, 1334 Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3007, 3919-36 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Amalgamation of departments, Dr. Cartier, 3821
Debates, translation of French Speeches, Res. 698
Defamatory libel; publication of judicial proceedings, 2149, 3933 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4237-40 French Trade Agreement, 1174 Grand Trunk Railway Loan, 4138
Shareholders, list of, 3320, 3560, 3740 Harbours and rivers, 3975-81 Highways, grants to provinces, qu. 2098 Inland Revenue Act Amdt. Bill, 2247 Inland Revenue Collector at St. Hyacinthe, Dr. Cartier, qu. 3904 Inquiry into public services, qu. 604 Interim Supply, voting of, 2011 Kirkwood Steamship Company, qu. 564 Militia supplies, sale to Roumania, 2245 Mondou, Mr.-Yamaska election, 3594 Montreal and South shore bridge, M. 221119
Montreal, public service, qu. 604 Naturalization Act, 1914 Amdt. Bill (Aliens who served in' Allied Armies) 2441 "Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale, 4031-34 Oil, leases, qu. 564 Opium and Narcotic Drugs, 2265 Paintings in Senate Chamber, qu. 566 Parliament Buildings, 3994-4002 Pierreville postmistress, qu. 3423 Prime Ministers' Conference, qu. 564; 3320 Privilege, correction of Official Report SociStS des Artisans, 230 Public Accounts, 1069 Public Buildings, Nova Scotia, 2758 Public documents, destruction of, qu. 599 Purchasing Commission, 2024 Returns, enquiries for, 2009, 2775, 3320 Ross rifle, statement of Rev. Canon Scott, qu. 599
Archambault, Mr. Joseph-Con.
Roumania and Greece
Dominion Canners, purchases, qu. 1001 Interest on loans, 1072 Loans to, qu. 478, 564 Militia stores, sale to, 2245 Tappert, Rev. N., qu. 1673 Welland canal, 2025, 2979-98
Architect. See Parliament Buildings
Archives, 4533. See also Public Records Biggar, Mr. H. P., qu. 2343 Doughty, Dr. Arthur, 2947 Provision for, 2945
Arctic Expedition, 4106, 4113
Argentine, Beef, competition with, 1039
Argue, Mr. Ira E. (Swift Current)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 367. Congratulations to Prime Minister-Mandate of Government and its supporters, 367; redistribution, representation of West; freight rates; Wheat Board, 368; price of wheat-grain investigation, 369 Canadian National Railways, 3038 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4467 Gravelbourg-Swift Current Railway, 3053
Armistice Day
Shipbuilding contracts after, 1683 Thanksgiving, 2555
Armistice Day Bill (Mr. Mowat) lr., 2618; Transferred to Govt. Orders, 3207; 2r., com., 3773; 3r., 3776
Armouries for Public Meetings, qu. 901
Armstrong, Mr. J. A. M. (North York)
Civil Service bonus, 2109
Armstrong, Mr. Joseph E. (East Lambton) Budget, 3424. Western Ontario industries, 3424; Imports of manufactured goods and exchange, 3425; canning factories, 3426; manufacturing industries generally, 3427
Business of the House
Bills reported by Standing Corns., 3761 Butter substitutes, material for, 3745 Canal tolls, 2969
Civil Service Retirement Act Amendment [DOT] Bill, 4273 Flax Industry, 1401
Great Lakes-St. Lawrence Waterway, 744 Highways west of London, 4307 Illustration stations in Western Ontario, 948
Immigrants along national railways, 3070


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[Stage Direction]
Armstrong, Mr. Joseph E.-Con.
Inland Shipping
Canadian Government Merchant Marine, qu., 2192
Rates-control, 1497, 2557, 2966-9 Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters, 607 Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4193 National Research Council, 2702 Ocean shipping, Govt, control, qu. 3530 Quebec Union Electric Telephone Co., 3343, 3421
Railway Act Amdt. Bill (Inland Shipping Rates), 1497, 2556 United States railways, 1576 Welland canal, 2969
Army Worms, 1028
Arsenic, 1027
Arthur Young Company, 2781, 4465. See also Address; Civil Service; Post Office; Printing Bureau Employment of, 551 Payments to, qu., 4251
Arthurs, Mr. James (Parry Sound)
Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, firearms, 3900-6 Dominion Elections Act Amdt., 309 Imports for home consumption in 1920, qu., 602 . Pensions, widowed mothers, 637 Polish battalion for service in French army, 4056
Soldiers' Pensions, insurance and re-establishment committee, final report, 4056
Artisians, Canadiens Francais, La SociOte des, 82
Ascension Day, 2626, 2775. See also Civil Service
Adjournment. See House of Commons
Ashley, Sergt. T„ C.M.S.C., qu., 3090
Assembly. See League of Nations
Atholstan, Lord, 1515 La Presse and, 3248
Atikokan, additional tracks, 1017
Atlin District, B.C., Judge, 1080
Auditing. See Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Canadian National Railways
Auditor, Independent. See Canadian National Railways
Auditor General
Railways, audit by, 1189
Auditor General's Report, 597, 958, 2247 Comparison with Estimates, 1108 Delay in bringing down, 737, 903, 1791 Penitentiaries, purchases for, 1104-5 Travelling expenses of judges, 1088 Unprovided items, 4535 Vols. I and II, 642; Vol. Ill, 788, 1396; Vol. IV, 737, 1176, 1385, 1388
Australia and New Zealand
Trade and steamship services, 1223, 1468, 1493
Austrian and German Imports. See Customs Act Amdt. Bill; Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Authors. See Copyright
Automobiles.-See Criminal Code Amdt. Driving while intoxicated, 3911 Theft, 3913
Backus, Mr. E. W., 4173-4224. See also Lake of the Woods
Baie Ste. Catherine Steamship Service, 1822 1971
Baie St. Paul liquor seizure, qu., 696; qu. 1132
Balance of Trade, 97, 3219, 3264, 3366, 3397 See also Address, Budget, Trade.
Baldwin, Mr. W. K. (Stanstead)
Budget, 3201. Tariff question, 3201; war indemnity, 3202; Roumanian and Greek loans, 3202; present economic conditions, 3202; financial situation, 3202; Laurier Government, 3204; railway problem, 3204; taxation, 3204; Easterr Townships, 3205; military and nava expenditure, 3205; League of Nations, 3208; military service, 3206; immigration policy, 3206
Dairy Products Grading Bill, 4446 De Martigny divorce, 4112 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 741 Housing, 1143-9
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4224 Unemployment and Labour, 1373
Balfour, Hon. A. J., and protection, 3417
Ball, Mr. Robert J. (Southeast Grey) Pierreville postmistress, qu., 3208
Ballantyne, Hon. C. C. (Minister of Marine and Fisheries and Minister of the Naval Service)
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Ballantyne, Hon. C. C.-Con.
Brant, steamer, 1982	.
British preference, 3485, 3553 Liberals, and, 3616
Budget, 3209. Revenue, 3209; Imaginary letters and Mr. McMaster, 3209; private business of ministers, 3210; tariff revision, 3210; position of Mr. Fielding on tariff, 3211; Naval affairs and expenditure, 3212; fiscal policy of Farmers' and Liberal parties, 3213; boot and shoe industry in Quebec East, 3214; Mr. King's speeches in Eastern and Western Canada, 3214; position of Mr. Gauthier, 3215; Quebec representation in Cabinet, 3216; attitude of Quebec, 3216 Business of the House For tomorrow, 2148
Canada Shipping Act Amdt. Bill (Public harbours) 2229
Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 2259-60
Canadian Government Merchant Marine Balance sheet, 1920, errors in, 1697-8 Canadian Press comment, 1704 Creation of company, 1908 Dominion Iron and Steel Company, 1710 First annual report, 1694 General statement, 1272; shipbuilding, 1272, 1279; shipping rates, decline in, 1273; cost of construction, 1274; operating costs, 1275; routes and sailings, 1275; exports, 1276-77; operating results, 1277; assets, 1277; liabilities, 1278
Halifax-Newfoundland route, 1686 Information, 1440 Operating profit, 1867 Preference to Canadian products, 1280 Quebec port, alleged discrimination against, 1271 Sailing routes, 1275, 1733 Ships on Great Lakes, 1914 Vessels, names of, 1962 Canadian "Inventor" 1890 "Champlain," 1980, 1995 Canadian Nationals Definition Bill, 786 Champlain, steamer, 1980, 1995 Chicago Drainage Canal, 1851 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4475-84 Naval Service, preference, 4484 Dry docks, 1690 "Esperanto," wreck, 4341 Fisheries
Breeding establishments, 4036 Dominion and Provincial jurisdiction, 2105
Ballantyne, Hon. C. C.-Con.
Fisheries-Con.
Inspection of pickled and canned fish, 2183
Lobster hatcheries, 4036 Overseers in Lunenburg, 2179 Salmon fishing licenses, 4342 Icebreakers and steamers, repairs, 1979, 1994
Imaginary letters, 3209, 3174 Johnston, Mr. Alex., re-appointment, 644 Life-saving service, 1990, 1991 Lighthouse and coastal service, 1996, 2174 Signal service, 1997, 4040 Lightkeepers' salaries, 1995 "Marie Lydia," schooner, 1985 "Narbethong," steamer, 2175 Naval Service estimates, 4010-36 Navigation, season of, 1994 "Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale, 4010-36 Ocean and River service, 1736 Pilotage, administration of, 1999 Pilots, pensions, 2000 Public .Harbours, 2229 Repairing of ships at Quebec, 1988 St. Lawrence channel, dredging, 1992 Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt.
(Ministers and directorships) 652 Sherwin-Williams Paint Co., 372, 3484 Shipbuilding, 1272, 1683, 2081 Contracts, 1872, 1884, 1972, 1902 Correction as to value, 1683 Depreciation, 1886 Details of construction, 1874 Dominion Steel Company, 1691 Extra fittings, 1894 Figures, 1931
Imperial Munitions Board, 1869 Interest on cost, 1887 Lemieux, Mr., speech on, 1684 Newspaper comment, 1934 Operating profit, 1866 Opposition to, 1892 Price per ton, 1873 Progress in debate on, 1729, 1931 Sinking fund, 1885 Shipyards, Government loan to, 1883 Swan, Mr. D. D., Consulting engineer, 1997 Tariff-speech, Montreal, Nov. 15, 1920, 363 Welland canal obstruction, 1990 Wrecking plants, 1990 Wrecks, investigation, 1988 Vamaska by-election, 3251
Ballot Boxes, Convicts working on, 1092 Banff National Park, 3986, 4495 Banking and Commerce, Com., 962


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[Stage Direction]
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Bankruptcy Act Amendment Bills
1.	Bill No. 36 (notice to creditors of suspension) lr., 1069; 2r., com., 2556. (See No. 3)
2.	Bill No. 37 (French Version) lr., 1069;
m. for 2r., 2557. (See No. 3)
3.	Bill No. 118. lr., 2618; 2r., com., 3909,
3143;	3r., 3146. Senate amendments.
Subjects and sections discussed: Additional security by trustee, 2913 Adjustment of rights of contributories,
Affidavit upon registration, 2910 Alternative powers-court to await prior action, 2937 Assignment of book debts, 2922 Available Act of bankruptcy, 2909 Claims, priority, 2935 Commencement of bankruptcy, 2910 Discharge of Trustee, 2934 Dismissal of petition, 2910 Dividend, 2930-31 French version; correction, 4170 Jurisdiction of Dominion and provinces, 2924
Leased premises, 2935 Liability of officer, director or agent of company, 2940 Local newspaper, 2909 New trustee may be substituted, 2916 Penalty for removing goods, 2938 Permission limited, 2920 " Person," 2910
Procedure in Quebec under Civil Code, 2924
Proof, power to admit or reject, 2935 Proposal of composition or management, 2911
Removal of goods; bank deposits, 2920 Remuneration, expenses and costs,
2930	'
Remuneration of trustee, 2933 Search warrants, 2936
Securities-secured creditor to value, 2935
Stay of proceedings, 2912 Trustee may apply for directions, 2918 Trustee may apply for sale of property, 2920
When misrepresentation or fraud, a defence for contributory, 2928
Bankruptcy Act, Judges under, 1084
Banks. See also Finance; loans
Canadian, deposits outside Canada, qu. 1623
Dominion Notes and gold reserve, qu. 1234 Taxation, and, qu. 2192, 3664
Banner Oats, 1033
Bar Association. See Canadian Bar Association
Barbed Wire, 3328, 3495
Barnard, Mr. C. A., 1846, 1930
Barnhill, Mr. A. P., 1609-10. See also Canadian National Railways Business interests, 3610
Bass River, wharf, 3989,
Battlefields Memorials Commission, competitive designs, 2566
Beatty, Mr. E. W., and immigration, 1127, 1356
Beauce, appointment of Judge, 1081
" Beaver " Canadian, Ss., qu. 1673
Beef Cattle. See Cattle Embargo; Live Stock
Beef, Dressed, export of, 1039. See also Cattle Embargo
Beer Containers, Marking, 3786
Beet Sugar, 301, 3426, 3456
Beland, Mr. H. S. (Beauce)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 157; Election, League of Nations, 157; speeches of Sir George Poster and Mr. Rowell; International Justice; Article X; registration of treaties; expenses, salaries of officials. 158; Canada's share; Imperial federation; centralization; local control; Lord Burnham, 159; unrest and dissatisfaction, 160; Government has outlived mandate; representation, redistribution will not greatly help Agrarians; tariff issue, 161, 162; Quebec situation, 162; Canadian National Railways, Board of Commerce, 163; Board of Pension Commissioners; International Joint Commission; Peace Conference; Assembly of the League of Nations, 164 American implements at Experimental Farms, qu. 492 Auditor General's Report, 914 Brunelle, Sergt. Major N., 1519 Business of the House
Monday, Government business, 2148 Public Bills and Orders, 2819
Second reading by consent, 2889 Saturday sittings, 2818 Canada Year Book, 1425 Canadian Association for Prevention of Tuberculosis, 3142
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Beland, Mr. H. S.-Con.
Canadian National Railways Private ownership. 1498 Canadian representation in the United States, 2400-28
Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill, 2780 Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 2492-2502, 4268-73 Coal importation, 1248 Cocaine and morphine imports, 3130 Coffee, adulteration of, 3141 Conservation Act Repeal Bill, 3146, 3958-71 Dairy Produce Grading Bill, 4437-42 Demobilization, 2285 Dominion Lands Act Amdt. Bill, 4065 French Trade Agreement, 1175	.
Fuel Supply, Special Committee, evidence in French, 4251
Government railways, hoards of management, 1658
Governor General-reported appointment of Lord Byng, 4435 Grain elevators, 1442 Health
Medical officers, 3133 Immigrants, for, 3132 Housing loan, 4552 Immigration, 2575 Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill, 4351-5 Income Tax, extension of time, 1272 Maple Products Act Amdt. Bill, 2150, 2193, 2557-60, 2618, 2890
National Catholic Labour Unions, 1652 National Resources, 892 Maple industry, 892 Opium and Narcotic Drugs, 2263-7 Parliament Buildings, 4000 Permanent Court of International Justice, 2096, 2709-11
Polish Battalion for service in French Army, 4055
Pootmans, Mr. G., and Belgian loan, 3379 Purchasing Commission, 2018, 2020, 2024 Quebec riots, 1508
Quebec Union Telephone Company, 3343 Returned Soldiers
Pensions, insurance and re-establishment Special Committee, 732, 4055 Relief for, 2688
Revenue, expenditure and debt, qu. 2099 Scientific Research, 1430. See also Research Statutory expenditures, 1422 Unemployment, 4551
Belfast, linen yarns. See Linen yarns Belgo-Canadian Pulp & Paper Company, 3049
Belgium. See also Loans Credit to, qu. 577, qu. 1001, 3347, 3377 Pootmans, Mr. G., 3379 Purchases in Canada, qu. 736
Bell, Dr. Graham, secretary, 2377
Bell, Major Graham A., 1609-10, 1666, 3610. See also Canadian National Railways
Bell Telephone Company, Signal Service, 1998
Belly River water rights, qu. 2943. See also Irrigation
Bermuda
Steamship service to, 1488 Trade agreement, rejection of, 1271. See also Canada-West Indies Trade relations, 2253
Berne Convention. See Copyright
Berry Boxes and Currant Boxes
Amendment of Inspection and Sale Act M. (Ethier), 4106, 4114
Berthierville telephone, qu. 1233
Bertrand, Mr. Joseph Tetu, 4079
Best, Mr. John (Dufferin)
Agricultural Shows, 1244 Chief Justice, income tax, 1565 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4468-80 Experimental Farms, 940 Flax-growing, 1392, 1395 Fruit inspectors and Civil Service Commission, 1045
Highway construction in Ontario, 3027, 3033, 4295
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4214-18 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3855-88 Parliament Buildings, 4075
Bi-Cameral System. See Ministers
Bienfait, Briquetting plant at, qu. 673, 4499. See also Coal; Lignite; Natural Resources
Biggs, Hon. F. C. and Highways, 3036, 3037, 4290, 4448. See also Highways
Bills. See also Deputy Speaker; jHouse of Commons; Private Bills Discussed; Speaker. For Public Bills see individual titles
Binder Twine, 3227, 3328, 3365, 3481, 3493. 3505. See also Special War Revenue Act Amdt.
Exemption of fibre, 3746
Biological Board, 2189
Birchard, Dr., grain laboratory at Winnipeg, 1228
Birds. See Migratory Birds
Bituminous. See Coal; Fuel Supply


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[Stage Direction]
Blair, Mr. William J. (Battle River)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 376; General election unfair to West; no demand; marketing of farmers' grain; at mercy of grain dealer; elevator practices, 377; position of elevator operator; screenings and dockage, 378; overages; Winnipeg Grain Exchange; Wheat Board; participation certificates, 379; Mr. Woods' statement; investigation necessary Canadian Wheat Board, qu. 1343
Blake, Mr. Matthew R. (North Winnipeg) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 313; Congratulations to Prime Minister; unjust criticism of Government, 313; effective prosecution of war; trade expansion; merchant marine; reestablishment, 314; Soldiers' Settlement Act; soldiers' insurance; expenditure of Ontario Government, 315; trade with United States; exchange; declaration of policy by leader of Agrarians; investigation of grain trade, 316; performances not promises; leader of the Opposition, 317 Alcohol, tax on, 3731 Criminal Code amendment, 3899 Debates, translation of French speeches, 702
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4201 Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Amdt. Bill, 2267
Blondin, Hon. P. E., 536, 552. See also Postmaster General
Payments to, qu. 567. See also Ministers, Post Olfice
Blood Indian Reserve. See Indians
Blood-Testing of Animals, 1050
Blouin, Mr. Joseph. See Quebec Riots
Blue Books, printing of, 1485. See also Printing Bureau
Board of Commerce, 163, 401, 441, 3169, 3604. See also Address, Budget Appointment and work, qu. 602 Total cost, qu. 599	#
Board of Directors. See Canadian National Railways; Management
Board of Railway Commissioners. See Railway Commission
Board of Trade Reports French forms, 2819, 3320, 3375
Boards of Trade, 1465. See also Trade
Boivin, Mr. George H. (Shefford). See also Deputy Speaker
James McLaren Company, Limited, 665 Speaker's Chair, presentation, 3688, 3691
Bolshevism, 27, 3451
Pamphlet issued by Labour Department, 4548
Bolton, Mr. Ferris (Lisgar)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 396; Grain trade-drying up of lakes in Prairie Provinces-duration of Parliament, 396
Bombs. See Criminal Code Amendment
Bonds. See also Finance; Loans; Victory Bonds
Canadian Government, qu. 1620, 3289 Comparative return on Dominion and Nova Scotia, 4165
Outstanding War, Victory, tax free and taxable, qu. 2821 Tax-exempt, 3398
Bonus. See Civil Service
Boot-making. See Penitentiaries
Boots and Shoes
Industry, 1222, 3214, 3230, 3386, 3484, 3631 Trade in, 1225
Borax, Manufacture of, 3365
Bordeaux Mixture, 1033
Borden, Right Hon. Sir Robert L. (King's, N.S.)
Archives, provision for, 2947-53 Armistice "Day Bill, 3773 Business of the House
Complaint of undue lias' e, 4452 Prorogation-important business hums -diately preceding, 4452 Canadian Constitutional Development, 2378 Canadian National Railways, Special Com., reference to, M. (Mr. Meighen), 1777 Canadian Representation in the United States, 2436
Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4488 Religious holidays, 4488 Returned soldiers, 4259 Copyright Act Amdt. Bill, 3838-50 De Martigny divorce, 3765-70 Disarmament, views on, 3418 Estimates on Thursdays and Fridays, Rule 17c, 2104
Governor General-Address to on retirement, 4435 Interim Supply, 1678
Judges' salaries, 1563
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Borden, Right Hon. Sir Robert L. -Con. Maisonneuve and GaspS, representation, 2329
Nauru Island phosphate deposits, 4542 Prime Ministers' Conference, 2626 Privileges and Elections Com., 2373 Speaker's Chair, 3693
Borden, Camp
Air Force, qu. 1820, 3777
Borrowing. See Housing; Loans
Boswell, wharf, 3977
Bosworth, Mr., and value of-ships, 1706
Boucher, Mr. Aime, ques. 3422, 3423. See also Pierrevile; Yamaska
Boucher, Mrs. See Pierreville Postmistress
Bounties, 3085. See also Natural Resources; Trade and Commerce Beet Sugar, 3456 Iron and Steel, 874 Linen yarn, 1389 Petroleum, crude, 1385, 1413
Bourassa, Mr. J. B. (Levis)
Canadian National Railways, superannuation, qu. 2344 Civil Service Appointments, qu. 572 Returned soldiers, qu. 3259 Dredge Internationale, qu. 2192, 2506 Motor-bus tax, remission, qu. 603 Printing Bureau, destruction of documents, qu. 603
St. Romuald public building, qu. 577, qu. 604
Boxed Goods. See Special War Revenue Act Amdt.
Boyce, Mr. George (Carleton)
Arthur Young Company and Griffenhagen, payments, qu. 575 Housing, 1146
Immigration to Northern Ontario, 3077 Oleomargarine Act Amendment Bill, 3859 Unemployment and immigration, 1362
Boyer, Mr. Gustave (Vaudreuil-Soulanges) Dairy products grading Bill, 4444 Maple Industry, 887 Natural resources, 887 Road from Cascades Point to Coteau Junction, qu. 576 Tobacco licenses, 2554 War History, qu. 1625
Boys, Mr. William A. (South Simcoe) Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Provincial analyst's certificate, 3789 Still-innocent manufacture of part, 3788 Grand Trunk loan, 4148-58
Bradley, Mr., Vice-Admiralty registrar, 1086
Bran, for destructive insects, 1027
Brandram-Henderson, Limited, 1611
"Brant," steamer, 1982
Brantford-Hamilton Highway. See Highways.
Bridges. See also Canadian National Railways; Public Works; Railways and Canals Banff, 3986
Bryson-Calumet Island, 3986
Campbellton-Cross Point, qu. 573, 2937
Edmundston, 2810
Grand Etang, 3987
Jacques Cartier County, 3678
Joliette, 4320
Kingston, 3973
Lachine Canal, 3675, 4308
Longueuil, 300
Montreal-South shore, M. (Archambault) 2213
Perrot Island, qu. 576, qu. 603 Quebec highway, 4333 Railway, 1664 St. Annes-Vaudreuil, 3677 Victoria, 300
Briquettes, 1251, 1267, qu. 673, 4499. See also Fuel; Lignite
Bristol, Mr. Edmund (Toronto Centre) Canadian Government Merchant Marine, 1288
Cattle embargo, 728 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2464 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 743 Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt.
(Ministers and directorships) 594 Shipbuilding, 1288
British Board of Trade and Immigration, 3133 British Cattle, 1049. See also Cattle Embargo British Chamber of Shipping, 1716 British Columbia
, Buoys and Lighthouse service, 2175 Fisheries, 861, 883 Fruit industry, 9-10 Hog cholera in, 1059 Lumber trade, 1725


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[Stage Direction]
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British Columbia.-Con.
Natural resources, 861
Poultry, 3750
Shipment of ties to Egypt, 1725
Vancouver Island railways, qu. 3422
British Embassy at Washington, 1221. See also Canadian Representation.
British Empire Steel Corporation, 1691. See also Halifax Graving Dock
British Flag, protection under. See Burnham, Dr.
British Foreign Office. See French Trade Agreement
British Funds, disbursement in Canada, qu. 733
British Goods, importation of. See Customs Tariff Act Amdt. (Marking of Imported Goods)
British Manufacturers. See Trade
British North America Act
Proposed amendments. See Address; Ministers
With regard to Judges, 1082
British Precedents. See Address; Ministers
British Preference, 3699
British Remount Commission, 4341, qu
British Subjects, foreign-born wives of. See Dominion Elections Act
British Traditions. See Ministers
Brookfield, Mr., and Halifax Graving Dock, 1699
Brouillard, Mr. J. O. (Drummond and Arthabaska)
Archives, Mr. H. P. Biggar, qu. 2343 Canadian National Railways, Hornepayne division, qu. 1624 George, Mr. A. D., qu. 1233 Newcombe, Mr. E. F., and G. T. Arbitration, qu. 1002
Printing Bureau, destruction of documents, qu. 1621
Judge Snider's report, qu. 2028 Tilley, Mr. W. N., K.C., qu. 1001
Brown, Hon. George, 172, 1167-8 Letter to Sir John A. Macdonald, 4002
Brown-Tail Moth, 1027. See also Destructive Insects
Brunelle, Sergt. Major N.
M. (Mr. Lemieux) for papers, 1518
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Volume IV:: Brussells, International Financial Conference, qu. 1237, 3148, 3150, 3157, 3268, 3276, 3452, See also Military Expenditure
Buchanan, Mr. W. A. (Lethbridge)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 475; congratulations to Prime Minister; explanation of personal position; not prepared to support Government; people voted on war not domestic questions; new parties, policies and leaders, 475; redistribution and election; Western Canada entitled to increased representation, 476; tariff; the parting of the ways, 477 Antelope in Western Canada, qu. 1134 Customs revenue by provinces, qu. 1622 Irrigation
Belly river water rights, qu. 2943 Milk river water rights, qu. 2099 Natural resources, 857
Transfer to Western Provinces, 2535 Trade agents in United States, qu. 1001
Buckley, Mr. Charles P., qu. 966
Budget. See also Ways and Means Date of
Announcement of, 2943 Inquiry, 738, 903, 1270, 1555, 2151, 2568, 2818, 2890
Debate on, 3127, 3146, 3209, 3262, 3322, 3343, 3375, 3423, 3476, 3531, 3584 Amdt. (Mr. Fielding) 3155; neg., 3686-7;
resolution agreed to, 3688 Resolutions, 3121 Speech, 3114
Bud Worm, destruction in spruce forests, , 1031
Building Conditions. See Housing
Building Material, tax on, 3734, 3736. See also Special War Revenue Act Amdt.
Building Trades. See Labour
Building Trades Conference, 1498, 1556
Bulk Freighters. See Fuel Supply
Buoys. See Navigation, aids to
Bureau, Mr. Jacques (Three Rivers and St. Maurice)
Armistice Day Bill, 3773 Automobile theft, 3916 Business of the House, 1330, 1340 Definite statement as to, 1025 Estimates-method of voting, 1073 Morning sittings-prorogation, 4339 Previous debate, 3562


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Bureau, Mr. Jacques-Con.
Business of the House-Con.
Supply-
Procedure, 1024, 1025, 1073, 1217 Thursdays and Fridays, 958, 1217 Canada Temperance Act Cases pending, 3902 Exemption of, 4376 Proclamation, 4876 Retroactive legislation, 4376 Supreme Court case, 4376 Canadian Forestry Association, 4494 Canadian Nationals Definition Act, 645, 647, 767
Canadian National Railway Company, damage to property, 3049 Canadian National Railways Forest fires-Transcontinental, 4335 Operation of, 1004
Saskatoon, switch engines, qu. 3090, 3903
Cattle embargo, 729 Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill, 3901-4267 Conservation Act Repeal Bill, 3959-68 Containers, 3956
Copyright Amdt. and Consolidation Bill, 3830-7
Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3900-36 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Invoice certificate, 3798 Fee, 3798 Form of, 3798 Proclamation, 3798 Trade agents, 3798
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (Prohibition plebiscite), 261 Dates of proclamation, assent and voting, 303
Names eliminated, 304 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4246-8 Election officers, disqualification, 4246 Nomination paper, 4247 Exchequer Court Act Amdt., 624 Fuel Supply Co. evidence in ^French, 4251 Harbours, and rivers, estimates, 3973 Vote in Com., 3979
Highway construction in Ontario, 4297 Hudson Bay Railway, motion involving expenditure, 984
Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill, 4344-54 Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters, Bill, 608
Interior Department Messenger clerks, 1333 Salaries, 1330
James MacLaren Company, Limited, Bill, 598
Justice Department Law officers, 1078
Juvenile delinquents-spanking, 3918
Bureau, Mr. Jacques-Con.
Lake of the Woods Control Bill, 1176 International Joint Commission, and, 1071
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 41714226
National Research Institute, 2692 " Niobe " and " Rainbow ", sale, 4012-34 Park St. Charles Company, proposed payment to, 4575
Patent Act Amendment Bill, 4456-9 Penitentiary Act Amdt. Bilk 3739 Railway statistics, qu. 3422 West Durham election, 1324 Wines, sparkling, tax on, 3734
Burnham, Dr., treatment of by Serbian Government, qu. 576 M. (Mr. Lemieux), 1520
Burnham, Mr. J. H., resignation of, 1
Burnham, Lord, 159
Suggested appointment as Governor General, 599
Business Depression, 3213. See also Address; Budget; Trade
Business Profits War Tax, 3120, 3253, 3445. See also Address; Budget; Taxation Expenditure, 4533
Butter. See Dairying Industry; Dairy Products, grading of; Oleomargarine
Butts, Mr. Robert H. (Cape Breton South and Richmond)
Budget, 3524. Attitude of Government supporters on tariff, 3524; comparison with attitude of Opposition, 3525; protection and the fiscal policy, 3525; foreign trade development under protection, 3526; steel trade, 3526; Dominion Coal Company and strike- Mr, E. M. Macdonald, 3528 Cost of operation of ships, 1799 Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, theft of automobiles, 3917
Ingonish, Macleod's breakwater, 4087 Interim Supply, 2020
Judges, power to suspend sentence, 1857 Post Office Act Amdt. Bill, 2124 Reciprocity agreement with United States, 2066
St. Lawrence coal trade, 1495 Wrecks, removal of, 1990
By-Elections. See House of Commons; Representation in Parliament Bill respecting, 1310
Holding of. See Representation in Parliament


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Byng, Lord, New Governor General. See Governor General
Cabinet
French Canadian Minister, alleged offer of position to, 3638. See also Veniot; York-Sunbury
Gauthier, Mr. I.. J., M.P., and, qu. 1131 Ministers. See also that title Post Office Dept, and, qu. 1349 Quebec, representation in, 3216
Cabot Strait, 3297
Cahill, Mr. Frank S. (Pontiac)
Air Board, 3777-83
Annapolis public building, 2741	'
Binder twine fibre, 3756
Bounties, 1386. See also under this title;
Natural Resources; Oil Bureau of Statistics, 2142 Business of the House, 1344 Estimates
Announcement of business for to-morrow, 1344 Rule 17C
Right to call dept, when in Com. of Supply, 2889
Thursdays and Fridays, 1215, 2889, 3001
Calumet Island bridge, 3986 Canada Year Book, 1425 Canadian Nationals Definition Act, 776 Canadian National Railways Auditing of accounts, 1189, 1668 Board of Directors, 4314 Correspondence with directors, 1003 Lord Shaughnessy's letter, 2503 Management-Information, M. (Mr. King) 1189
Officials, payment of, 1669 Report, qu. 902
Special Committee, reference to M. (Mr. A. K Maclean), 1615 M. (Mr. Meighen) 1769 Amdt. (Mr. Crerar) 1813 Canadian Northern Railway, Directors, 1664
Canadian Representation in the United States, 2378
Census-appointment of enumerators in Pontiac, 828, 1127 Civil Service and patronage, 828 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Cost of production, 4426 Imports from European countries, 2811-19 Proclamation, 4407
"Reasonable profit in the circumstances" 4415
Valuation for duty, 4415
Volume
Cahill, Mr. Frank S.-Con.
Customs and Excise Dept. Bill-Con.
Valuation of currency, 3811-19 Customs Tariff Amdt. Bill, imported goods, marking, 3952
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4245 Dominion Police Force, withdrawal from Mounted Police, qu. 601 Dominion Statistician, 1231 Estimates. See also under this title Business of the jHouse Consideration of, 1666 Objection to, 1074 Flax industry, 1396 Georgian Bay Canal, 688 Gilmour and Hughson, Limited, 1096 Grand Trunk Arbitration, qu. 2030, 2445-79 Grand Trunk Loan, 4145-68, 4314 Motion to reduce, 4151, neg. 4167 Grand Trunk Railway, directors, 3741 Great Lakes and St. Lawrence waterway, 688
Harbours and rivers, 3973-80 Homesteads, 1346 Housing, 1145 Immigration, 2578-84, 3057 Abitibi country, in, 3075 Immigration Act Amdt. Bill, 3826 Imperial Mineral Resources Bureau, 4499 Interim Supply Bill, 2103-2116 Interior and Immigration Depts. 1331 Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 609 Kapuskasing illustration station, 949 Live cattle industry, 1474 Manufacturers, protection, 1492 Militia, annual drill, 2294 Montreal Harbour Commission, 2268 Mounted Police,
Recruits, qu. 601 Strength, 2798-2800 National Research Institute, 2705 National resources, 849 Oil
Bounties, 1418, 1424
Lands, General Lindsay and, 1342
Leases, 1340
"Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale, 4028-34 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3883-92 Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Amdt. 2267 Parliament Buildings, 3996-4001 Penitentiaries, 1116 Increase in cost, 1112 Permanent Court of International Justice, 2096
Pontiac Census Commissioners, 1127 Printing of Publications, 1438 Purchasing Commission, 1098, 1102, 1114, 2142
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Cahill, Mr. Frank S.-Con.
Railway Commission, 3016
Railway Department, record searcher, 1672
Railways
Deputy Minister of, 1665 Parliamentary control, 1603 Return, inquiry for, 2688 Riding Mountain Park, 1343 Rule 17C (Estimates on Thursdays and Fridays) and Interim Supply Bill, 2103-2105. See also under this title Business of the House St. John and Quebec Railway Bill, 2155-7 Shipbuilding, 1935 Contracts, 1902, 1911 Export trade, 1927 Sinking fund, 1885 South Africa steamship service, 1491 Steamship subsidies, 1491 Transcontinental Railway Colonization along, 3075 Winnipeg-Quebec service, 2511 Transportation of grain, 2982. See under this title Georgian Bay Canal; Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway Welland canal construction, 2981-90 West India cable, 1438 West Indies-Canada Trade Agreement, 1467
West Indies Steamship service, 1488, 1490
Calder, Hon. J. A. (Minister of Health, Immigration and Colonization; President of the Council)
Canadian Nationals Definition Act, 779 Chinese Immigration Act Amdt. Bill, 3207. 3827-9. See also under this title, Immigration Civil Service Retirements, list of, 1817 Superannuation Increased allowances, 4275 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4461-93, 4281-88
Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 2486-2503, 4119, 4266-78 Dominion Lands Act Amdt. Bill, 3903, 4062-8
Debates, Official, distribution of, 2224 Esmonde, Mr. Osmonde Grattan, 1557 Health
Adulteration of food, 3142 Department, 3127 Report, 1852 Research work, 3135 Drugs, traffic in, 3130 See also Opium and Narcotic Drugs Medical officers, 3133 Mental Hygiene Councils 3143
Calder, Hon. J. A.-Con.
Health-C on.
Sick mariners, 3135, 4039 Immigration Act Amdt. (Deportation), 1858
Immigration Act Amdt. Bill, 3007, 3822-7 Money qualification, 3825 Persons guilty of sedition, 3826 Senate amendments, 4343 Immigration
British inspectors, 3067 Care of immigrants, 3069 Chinese, 3207, 3827-9, 4131 Department, 3055 Estimates, 2568-2602, 4127, 4131 Postponement of consideration, 3077 Exhibits decorator, 3066 General statement, 2568 Head tax, 3056
Medical officers at ports of departure-3132
Mental defectives, 3583 Officials, 3057 Policy, 3063 Railways and, 4130 Typhus fever, precautions, 644 Unemployment, and, 1380 United States, 3065 Women, 3061
Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 620 Langley, Hon. George, statement by, 456 Langlois, Mr. George Arnoult, 4128 Military District No. 12, 2797 Opium and Narcotic Drugs Act Amdt. Bill. 2263-8, 2346, 2897, 3009, 4062 Special Committee, report, 2708 Proportional Representation, 1541 M. for Special Com., 1542 References to, 363, 438, 452 Royal Canadian Mounted Police, strength. 2798
Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act Am.lt.
Bill, 2343, 2481-6 Sales tax, 3757
Sick and distressed mariners, 3135, 4039 Smallpox on Scandinavian, 1499 Tuberculosis, prevention of, 3142
Caldwell, Mr. Thomas W. (Victoria and Carleton, N.B.)
Abattoirs and cold storage plants, 1125 Agricultural implements, 3496 Budget, 3441. Farmers' party, attitude of, 3441. Protective tariff and duty on fertilizers, 3441; potato crop, 3442; Roumanian loan, 3444; revenue from Victory Bonds, 3444; luxury taxes and business profits tax, 3445; Canadian manufacturers and tariff, 3446; sales tax, 3447


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INDEX-1921 xv
[Stage Direction]
Caldwell, Mr. Thomas W.-Con.
By-election, York-Sunbury, 2151 Canadian National Railways, directors, 1672
Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2781, 4467-89 Cow-testing', 1037
Customs Tariff Amdt. Bill-imported goods marking, 3950 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4243 Fertilizer Act Amdt. Bill, 1497, 2231 Highways-New Brunswick, 4306-8 Inspection of Ga-s and Gas Meters, 613 Lumber, tax on, 3744 Militia, Douglas, Mr., dismissal, 2277 Post Office Act Amdt. Bill, 2123 Railway Department, sundries, 1667 St. John and Quebec Railway Bill, 2154, qu. 837
Tobique reserve-timber, 4503 Widowed mothers' pensions, 639, 4370 Woodstock exhibition, 1125
Camp Borden. See Borden, Camp
Camp Grounds, Farnham, Que„ 1132
Campbell, Mr. A. W. See Highways, Commissioner of
Campbell, Mr. J. A. (Nelson)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 369; Congratulations to Prime Minister; review of the debate; personal position, 370; tariff, protection not main question before House, 371; adjustment of tariff schedules, necessaries of life; profits; Dominion Textile Company; Sherwin-Williams Paint Co.; duties on agricultural implements; Ford car; mining machinery, 373; Government formed for period of war; redistribution before election, 374; precedents; constituency of Nelson, a concrete proposal; adjournment till fall for redistribution, 375; amendment to the amendment proposed, 376; Amdt. negatived, 561 Aerial patrol, 4495
Budget, 3681. Natural resources of West. era Provinces, 3681; tariff revision and protection, 3682; cement industry, 3683 Canadian Forestry Association, 4495 Canadian Wheat Board Bill, 2159 Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3915-38 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4233-43 Geological Survey, 2141-7 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 3463 Highways Manitoba, 4308 Ontario, 4298
Campbell, Mr. J. A.-Con.
Hudson Bay Railway, 2980 M. 974, 1852
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 41S7-4207
Musk Ox and Reindeer, 4543 National Research Institute, 2699 Natural Resources, 869 Transfer to Western Provinces, M. 2519, 2541-53
Parliament Buildings, 3999
Railway Commission, cases before, 3022
Reference to, 495
Shipbuilding contracts, 1955
Trent Canal, 2606-16, 2953-8
Welland canal, 2966-89
Witness fees, 3937
Canada Evidence Act Amdt. Bill
lr., 3318-9; 2r., com., 3r., 3758
Canada, Foreign Trade. See Trade
Canada Grain Act. See also Canadian Wheat Board; Grain; Administration, 1442
Canada Highways Act. See Highways
Canada Shipping Act Amendment Bill
(Public Harbours)
lr., 1174; 2r., com., 2228; com., 2555; 3r. 2556
Canada Steamships, Limited, 1914
Canada Steel Company, 3407
Canada Temperance Act, 4533 Importation of liquor into provinces, qu. Quebec city, petition for suspension, 3584 4382	f
Where adopted, repealed and in force, qu. 4253
Canada Temperance Act, Bill. See also Dominion Elections Act Amdt; Prohibition Plebiscite
lr., 3901, 4061; 2r„ com., 4373; 3r., 4388 Subjects and sections discussed:
Alberta, prohibition plebiscite, 4376 Cases pending, 3902, 4373 Costs, 4377-81 Damages, 4387
Defect in form not to invalidate, 3902 Expenses under, 4533 Gold Seal Liquor Co. v. Dominion Express Co. 4375
Omission of date from proclamation, 4379 Pending litigation not to be affected Amdt. (Mr. Maclean, Halifax; 4384
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INDEX-1921
[Stage Direction]
xvii
Canadian Govt. Merchant Marine-Con.
Quebec port, discrimination against, 1271, 1965
Reported sale of ships, qu. 570 Royal Bank, and, 1719 Sailing routes, 1275, 1732 Sick mariners, and, 3136. See also Health State-owned fleets sold in other countries, 1718
Steamers, repairs to, 1979 Steamship services. See also that title Australia-New Zealand, 1493 Canada-West Indies, 1275, 1489, 2259 Newfoundland, 1487 Vessels. See also that title Cost of, 1799 In service, qu. 568 Liquor cargoes in, 1713, 1715 Names of, qu. 1499
Canadian "Beaver," qu. 1673, 1862 Canadian "Conqueror," qu. 1381 Canadian "Explorer," 1714 Canadian "Inventor," 1890 Canadian "Mariner," 1713, 1715 Canadian "Otter," qu. 1382 Canadian "Pioneer," qu. 1382, 1689, 1722, 1894
Canadian "Planter," qu. 2942 Canadian "Rancher," 1716 Canadian "Recruit," qu. 575, qu. 1381, 1382, 1703, 1868 Canadian "Runner," 1715 Canadian "Sapper," qu. 734 Canadian "Squatter," 1894 Canadian "Voyageur," qu. 1381, 1382, 1716, 1894
Registration of. 1720 Size of, 1732 Wages, 1921
Canadian Government Railways. See Canadian National Railways Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy,
Canadian Law Library, 1090
Canadian Locomotive Company, Limited,
1610-11 Works, 3407
Canadian Manufacturers. See Trade and Commerce
Canadian Manufacturers Association and
Tariff, 3445, 3645. See also Address; Budget; Manufacturers Canadian National Committee for Mental Hygiene, 3143
Canadian National Express Company
Expenditure on Eastern lines, 3037
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Canadian National Railways, 89, 163, 245, 269, 330, 344, 381, 387, 390, 4561. See also Grand Trunk; National Railways and Shipping; Railways; Reid, Hon. J. D. Administration of. See under this head Management
Amqui station, 382. 1176, 1233 Annual statement by Minister, 1004 Auditing of accounts, 1669, 1792 Auditor
Independent, qu. 1133
Baie St. Paul-St. Urbain branch line, 432S
Betterments, 1015, 3037, 4316
Bonds
Flotation of in New York, 3288, 3298 Bridge between Montreal and South Shore, 2213
Canadian Government Railways. See under this head Intercolonial, Transcontinental Branch railways, purchase of, 4338 Vote of $7,000,000 to meet working expenditure, 4335
Canadian National Express Company, 3037 Canadian National Railway Magazine, 4332 Canadian Northern Railway, 245, 3287 Bonds, issue and sale of, qu. 837 Borrowing, 3287
Certificates, issue and sale of, qu. 605 Cost of equipment, 1023 Deficits, 1189 Eastern lines, 1018 Guaranteed bonds, sale of, qu. 604 Loan of $50,000,000, 3037 Quebec-Loretteville, electrification, 4328 Salaried officials, qu. 2942 Vessels, qu. 1348 Western lands, 2583 Western lines, 1017 Cape Breton Coal and Steel, 3295 Car shortage, 512, 549, 3541, 4322 Oaraquet-Gulf Shore extension, 4338 Carvell, Hon. F. B., speech of, 1202. See also that title
Cedar posts, tenders for, qu. 1130 Charlevoix county-station platforms, 4329 Claims against, 1657
Claims between Ste. Rosalie and Bagot, qu. 571
Disposition of unoccupied land between, qu. 572
Coal purchases, 1772 Committee proposed, 1201 Company, 3049 Conductors, qu. 569
French-speaking, lack of, 1782, 4329 Correspondence, production of, inquiry, 1003
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xviii

Canadian National Railways-Con.
Deficit, 996, 1005, 1178, 1185, 1189, 1203-4, 1205, 1597, 1600, 4165, 4319 . Payne, Mr. J. Lambert, 3017 Directors, 1664, 3407, 4314
Cantley, Col. Thomas, qu. 1501 Deputy Minister of Railways, 1666 Interested in other companies, 1609 Names, 1609
Private business interests, 1609, 3610 Responsibility, 1594 Salaries, 4315 Divisional points, qu. 574 Earnings, 1006	.
Eastern lines, Improvements, 1017 Electrification, 4327 Employees, 1011
Conductors and brakemen discharged, qu. 1622
Fraud and malpractice by, 1669 Reduction in, 1851 Remuneration, qu. 1673, 1737
Supplementary answer, 1755, 1815 Equipment, 1007, 1013 Expenditure, 1662
Betterments, on, 3037 Western lines, 3037 Explanation of increase, 1011 Fair wages, 4545 Family compact, 1610 Fences, 4569
Fire claims-Shelburne County, 4569 Fish, transportation of, 877, 883, 890, 962, 1038
Fixed charges, 1006, 1008 Flavelle, Sir Joseph, 4142, 4314. See also that title
Foremen of engines, qu. 1673 Freight
Cars, qu. 568
Nova Scotia points, qu. 1620 Rates, 4562 Tonnage, 1007, 1012
French language in Quebec and New Brunswick, 4328
Gaspe Railway service, 962, qu. 2623 Government business, 4130 Grading and track-laying, 1021 Grading in Western Provinces, qu. 570 Grand Trunk loan, 4131 Halifax and South Western Extension to Lockeport, 4323 Station accommodation, 4327 Hanna, Mr. D. B., 4315. See also that title Hornepayne division, qu. 1624 Ice supply at Mulgrave, qu. 963 Immigration, 4129
Improvements and new structures, 1017
Canadian National Railways-Con. Independent auditor, qu. 1133 Information for Parliament. See under this head, Management; Special Committee Insurance, 1772
Intercolonial Railways, 3041, 4561
Amqui, piling lumber in railway yard, 382 Auditing of accounts, 1189 Charny and St. Foy, work, qu. 1501 Deficit on, 1800
Expropriation of land at L6vis
M. (Mr. Fielding) for papers, 1846, 1851 L6vis station, 2957 Management, 1189
Maritime Provinces, improved transportation, 4561 Mileage, 1005 Ocean limited, 1976 Pensions, old employees, 387 Railway Board, and, 1655 Section men, dismissal, qu. 2028 Superannuation of employees, qu. 575 Train service, qu. 3903 Joliette bridge, 4320 Kelley, Mr. Howard D., 4315 Lake Superior Branch, 3050 Liabilities, 3300 Liquor, theft of, qu. 1132 Loans

Amended item, 4168, 4288, 4313 Locomotives, etc., 1007, 1203, 1611 Damage to at Parent, qu. 963 Lord Shaughnessy's letter, 2503, 2890 McAdoo award, 4325 Maintenance, 1005, 1006
Management, qu. 1132, 1654, 1659, 1668. See under this head Special Committee Information laid before Parliament, M. (Mr. King), 1178 Neg. on division, 1214-5 Manitoba Government, correspondence, 2777 Maritime Provinces, improved facilities, 4516, 4561
Mileage, 1005, 1012
Ministerial statement by Hon. Mr. Reid, 1004; operation, loss in, 1005; mileage, 1005; earnings and operating expenses, 1006; general railway situation, 1007; Grand Trunk Railway, 1008; summary of operating results, 1010; Grand Trunk Pacific, 1014; new structures and improvements, 1017 Monastery, station at, 4324 Moncton shops, 1851 Montmagny-shed accommodation, 4570 Montreal Locomotive Company, qu. 696 Natural resources, development, 871


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Canadian National Railways-Con.
National Transcontinental. See under this title, Transcontinental New lines, 1023 Operation, 1005, 3300
Cancellation of trains, 1004 Operating deficits, 1013, 1189 Operating divisions Eastern lines, qu. 1131 Western lines, qu. 1131 Operating expenses, 1006 Operating results, 1010, 4316-18 Parlor car receipts-French language, 4330 Passenger traffic, 1012 Payroll, comparison of, 1011 Political control, freedom from, 2828 Politics, participation in, 4502 Prince Edward Island Railway, 4565 Private cars, 4563 Private ownership, and, 1498 Provincial liabilities, qu. 2942 Publicity, 4332
Purchasing agent at Chicago, 1793 Quebec and Saguenay station agents, qu. 696, qu. 963
Quebec bridge-highway, 4333 Quebec, Oriental & Atlantic and Western Railways, qu. 573
Quebec-Shawinigan service, qu. 573 Questions on order paper, 1763, 1782, 1783, 1798 Rails
Price of, 1852 Transfer to France, 4569 Railway ties, 1772 Rate increases, 1007, 1191 Report, qu. 902 Rolling stock, 1007 St. Alexis station, qu. 2375; qu. 3582 St. Augustine, qu. 695 St. Foy round house, 767 Correspondence, 1502 Res. (Mr. Parent), 840, 967 St. John and Quebec Railway, qu. 837 See also that title St. Hyacinthe shops, qu. 2821 St. Simon telegraph operator, qu. 3208 Saskatoon, shunting, qu. 3090, 3903 Section men, 1439
Special Committee, proposed reference to M. (Mr. A. K. Maclean), 1573; Arndt. 1582-83
Special Committee on National Railways and Shipping M. (Mr. Meighen)
Agreed to as amended, 1814 Arndt. (Mr. King) 1761, neg. 1810 Arndt. (Mr. Crerar) accepted, 1812-14 Notice of, 1618
Canadian National Railways-Con.
Special Committee on National Railways and Shipping-Con.
Special Committee appointed, 1845 Reference to, 1817 Report of, 2095 Staff, 4562
Statements and summaries, 1010, 1024 Statistics, qu. 3422 Steamship services, 558 Subsidiary companies, 1907 Sully, Que., 1134
Summaries of operating results and trade statistics, 1009 Superannuated employees Increase of allowance, qu. 575, qu. 2344 Toronto train connections, 4569 Tourist traffic in Gaspesian peninsula, qu. 2622
Train agents, qu. 1349
Transcontinental Railway, 280, 746, 1949, 3043
Expropriation of land, 1656 Forest protection, 4335 Freight rates on pulpwood and sawlogs, 2511
Management, 1189 Mileage, 1005 Montreal, and, qu. 574 Montreal-Winnipeg passenger traffic, qu. 2376
Wlnnipeg-Quebec service, 2509 Transportation of grain, 2984 Transfer of rails to France, 4569 Vancouver Island, qu. 3422 Western lines, 1017, 3039 Winnipeg-Quebec and East, qu. 569, 2509 Work done, 1019
Canadian National Railway Company, existence of, 3049
Canadian National Research Institute, 4555.
See also Research
Canadian National Telegraphs, 1019
Canadian Nationals Definition Bill
lr., 397; 2r„ 585, 644, 767; com., 767; 2031; 3r„ 2151
Sections and Subjects discussed:
Canadian Nationals, 767 Declaration of alienage, 2031 Naturalization, 781 Renunication of nationality, 781 Canadian Navy. See also Naval Service Adams, Capt. (Henry C., 901, qu. 1237 Ex-members of, qu. 3422 Sale of "Niobe'' and "Rainbow." See "Niobe" Status of members of, 3686	.
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Cannon, Mr. Lucien-Con.
Business of the House
Estimates on Thursdays and Fridays- Rule 17C, 1218 Canada Year Book, 1231 Canadian Nationals, 769 Canadian National Railways
Management and expenditure, 1662 Management - Information, M. (Mr. King) 1197 Canal tolls, 2962 Chief Justice, salary, 1669 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4489-90 Religious holidays, 4489-90 Civill Service Commission, 1336 Outside service, 1653
Civil Service, Res. (Sir Sam Hughes) political patronage in; vicious principle; patronage rampant; judicial appointments, 811; census commissioners; Halifax platform, 813 Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3921-29 Dominion Elections Act Amdt.. 305 Dominion lands and parks, 1334, 1343 Donner, Mr. W. A., ques. 1624 Estimates
Detail of item, 1226 French, in, 1386
Rule 17C, Thursday and Fridays, 1218 Post Office, date of submission, 4531 Statutory payments, 1414 Exchequer Court Act Amdt. Bill, 625 Expenditure
Necessity for reduction, 1336 Without consent of Parliament, 1415 Experimental farm in Dorchester county, 946
Flavelle, Sir Joseph, 4142 Government Railways, claims against, 1657 Governor General's cars, 3037 Grand Trunk loan, 4132-69 Halifax and Esquimau dockyards, 4036 Highways, expenditure on, 3024, 3026, 3036 Houses, tax on, 3958 Imperial Oil Company, 1386-8, 1414 Intercolonial Railway, station at Levis, 2757
Interim Supply. See also under this head Estimates
Discussion out of order, 1680 Notice, 1676
Interior Department Publications in French, 1333
Judges, conduct of, 1571 Live stock, distribution of pure-bred animals, 923
Ministers to sit in either Chamber, 1165 Montreal-Quebec pilots, superannuation, 1501
Cannon, Mr. Lucien-Con.
Motion pictures, artist, 1225 Parliamentary restaurant, 4536 Permanent Court of International Justice, 2716-36
Petroleum bounties, 1386, 1413, 1420 Point of order Information, 1229
Statement of Member to be accepted, 2765
Railway Commission, 3020 Cases before, 3021 Chairman. 3017 Railway Congress, 3023 Railway Department
Deputy Minister's salary, 1666 Outside legal counsel, 1656 Solicitors and counsel, 1654 Work of, 1661
Railways. See also under this head Canadian National Railways Lack of information, 1336 Minister, duties of, 1663 Railway employees, Civil Service Commission, 1653
Responsible Government. 1335 Royal Canadian Mounted Police, 2799 Ste. Rose de Watford mail contract, qu. 3209
Secretaries to executives, 1671 Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt. Bill, 653
Special War Revenue Act Amdt. Bill Consideration of, 3956 Statutory expenditure, 1419 Trade with Russia, 1224 Trent canal, 2960
Unemployment and immigration, 1375
Canso
Harbour, 3983-9 Wharf, and, 3983-9 Marine hospital, 3138 Mulgrave steamship service, 1496
Canteen. See War
Canteen Funds, Expeditionary Force, qu. 1133
Cantley, Col. Thomas, qu. 1501, 1609-10, 3407, 3610. See also Canadian National Railways
Cape Tormentine, dredging, 1017
Cardin, Mr. P. J. A. (Richelieu)
Government shipyard at Sorel, qu. 568, 2028, 2618
Indian Commissioner at Regina, qu. 964 St. Lawrence river Deepening, qu. 2028 Dredges and tugs, qu. 568
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[Stage Direction]
xxiii
Cattle. See also Agriculture; Health of Animals
Blood Indian Reserve, qu. 1818-19; see also Indians Feeding, 344
Feeds, exemption of, 3746 Industry, 335
Live, export to Great Britain, 1474 Prize. See Agricultural shows Shipping, 1039
Slaughtered, compensation for, 1061. See also Health of Animals
Cattle Embargo, 757, 3532. See also Health [DOT] of Animals; Live Stock; Prime Ministers' Conference Commission, inquiry, 1072 Promise of removal, qu. 566 Res. (Mr. Smith) 702 Arndt. (Mr. Pedlow) 725 Sub-Amdt. (Mr. Steele) 758, agreed to, 766
Res. (Mr. Lemieux) dropped, 766
Causapscal illustration station, 947
Cedar Posts for Canadian National Railways, qu. 1130
Cement Industry, 3683
Census. See also Civil Service (Res. Sir Sam Hughes)
Commissioners and enumerators, qu. 696, 800-12, 1209, 1226, 2098, qu. 3260 Appointment of, qu. 735, 2779, 2843, 287482, 3807. See also Civil Service Commission
Missisquoi, qu. 1132, 4113 Moncton, 3972
Officials, appointment of, 527, 597, 813, 827, 828, 830, 832 Pontiac, qu. 1127, 1231 Returned soldiers, as, qu. 2097 Industrial, 3490
Cent Coin, 2161
Central Railway Company of Canada, 3716. See also Private Bills Discussed
Chabot, Mr. J. L. (Ottawa)
Civil Service, Res. (Sir Sam Hughes) patronage in, 796; Civil Service Commission; ill-founded assertions; importance and variety of duties; organization attitude of Civil Service, 797
Chair. See Speaker's Chair
Chairman. See Deputy Speaker; Mr. Steele
Challies, Mr. J. B., 1346
Chambers of Commerce. See Trade Chambly Canal. See Canals "Champlain" steamer, 1980, 1983, 1995
Charlevoix County
Station platforms, 4329 Wharves, 1929, 4536
Charny, work at, qu. 1501
Chartered Banks. See Banks; Finance
Charters, Mr. Samuel (Peel)
Budget, 3410. Comment on Speech of Mr. W. C. Kennedy, 3410; Rural depopulation, 3411; production per man in agriculture, 3412; tariff and free agricultural implements, 3413; sales tax, 3413; outside capital, 3414
Chaudiere Junction, 1017 Cheese. See Dairying Industry-Chemicals for Fertilizers, 3441-2 Cheticamp Fishing station, 1991 Chicago Drainage Canal, 185, 1851, 2225 Chicoutimi
Customs collections, qu. 698 Labour Convention. See Labour Pier, qu. 967 Wharves, 1921
Chief Electoral Officer, 4534. See also Dominion Elections Act Arndt. Bill Reports, qu. 577 To be printed, 731
Chief Justice. See Judges Act Arndt. Bill Chief Whip. See Ames Child Prisoners, 3011 Child Welfare, 3130
China, Importation of Eggs from, qu. 568
Chinese Immigration, 4131. See also Immigration
Chinese Immigration Act Arndt. Bill
lr„ 3207-3208; 2r., com., 3827; 3r., 3830 Subjects and Sections discussed;
Identity to be established, 3827 Power to arrest, 3829 Prohibited persons, 3839
Chippewa Power Canal, 2444
Chisholm, Mr. Alexander W. (Inverness) Alcohol for medical purposes, 3729 Bernasconi, Mr., 4088
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Chisholm, Mr. Alexander W.-Con.
Canadian "Spinner," "Leader," etc., qu. 1382
Census commissioners-returned soldiers, qu. 2097
Chartered banks, taxes paid by, ques. 2192 Cheticamp station, 1991 Dredging, 3983
Fraser, Mr., Collector of Customs, 3082 Grand Etang Bridge, 3987 Light, 1997, 3987
Harbours and Rivers, estimates, 3975 Highways inspectors, 3023 Illicit liquors, 3082
Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 622
Inspectors under Destructive Insect and Best Act, 1043 Inverness
Fishery overseer, 2178 Harbour, 3985 Public building, 2817 Lobster hatcheries, 4037 Marine hospitals, 3138 Port Hood, wharf, 4104 Port Margaree wharf, 2174 Public Works-Engineering Branch, 4088 Relief of distressed seamen, 4039 Roy Building, Halifax, qu. 3089 Sheridan, Mr. John, resignation, 4503 Trent canal, 2958
Chlorine Gas, 1027
Churchill, Right Hon. Winston and Shipbuilding, 1288. See also Prime Ministers' Conference
Cigars and Cigarettes, duty on, 3698. See also Tobacco
Citizens' Liberty League, 304 Civil Aviation, 3776. See also Air Civil Service. See also Arthur Young & Company; GrifEenhagen; Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill; Civil Service Political Patronage; Supply
For individual departments see their titles
Appointments
As result of notices sent Members in Quebec, qu. 572 Competitive principle, on, 798 Distribution of, 1045 Dominion Lands Act, under, 4062 Dorchester penitentiary. Warden, 1092, 4467
Fruit inspectors in Nova Scotia, 1042 Gas and Gas Meters Act, Inspectors, 618, 619
Health of Animals, Inspectors, 1057, 1067
Civil Service-Con.
Appointments-Con.
Justice Department-lawyers, 1077 Member's recommendation, on, 2851-60-79 Militia appointments and dismissals, 2234
Order in Council, by, 1114 Purchasing Commission, 1100 Toronto post office, qu. 734 Trade Commissioners, 1464. See also Trade; Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Veterinary inspectors, 925. See also under this head Health of Animals Woman Supervisor of Immigration, 305862 [DOT] Bonus, qu. 901, qu. 967, 1176, qu. 1350, 1463, qu. 1623, 1948, qu. 2029, 2108-2115, 2236, qu. 3089, 3531, 4120, 4534 Health of Animals, Inspectors to, 1057, 1067
Lightkeepers, qu. 1622 Statement by Prime Minister, 1233 Classification, 817, 1660, 2236, 2842-8, 4465, 4475. See also under this title, Reorganization. For classification of the several departments, see their titles Arthur Young Company, 551, 793. 799, 802, 816, 833, 2781 Board of Hearing, 823, qu. 2820 Bonus and, 1463 Civil Service Executive, 1671 Employment of foreigners, 825 Griffenhagen and Associates, payments to, qu. 575. 793, 833, qu. 4251. See also that title
Increase in salaries, 4541 Justice Department, in. 1076 Lightkeepers' salaries, 1995 Public Works, engineers, 2682 Record searcher, 1672 Commission, 825, 829, 835, 836. See also Civil Service Act Amdt.; Res. (Sir Sam Hughes); Retirement Abolition, proposed, qu. 1381 Administration of Retirement Act, 24862503
Appointments by, 814, 822, 824. See also under this title, Appointments Bland, Mr. C. H., 2861 Buffer, used as, 830 Certificate of competency, 2832 Cost, 794
Curtailment of jurisdiction, 815. See also Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill Establishment of, 798 Fraser, Mr. Roy, 2860-8 Good work of, 817 Information from, 1336 Nelson. Mr. Christian, 2880
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INDEX-1921 XXV
[Stage Direction]
Civil Service-Con.
Commission-Con.
Organization and duties, 797 Outside Service, and, 794, 815 Promotions, and, 827, 2833-9, 2847-50, 2867-2878, 2885, 4125 Removal of power to make certain appointments, 2778 Report tabled, 4449 Secretary, 2860-9, 2875-81 Competitive examinations, 817 Disabled soldiers, preference, 4049 Dismissals, 2234, 2884 Economy in, 3194, 3439 Efficiency and discipline, 2865 Employees, number, name and classification, 4255
Employment of women, 2286 Examinations, 2178 Competitive, 798, 817 Federal Union No. 66, 795 Fishery overseers, Lunenburg county, 2179 Grain inspectors, 1444
Griffenhagen and Associates. See under this title Classification; Reorganization Halifax platform, 2844
Holidays, religious, 1384, qu. 1499, 2626, 2775, 4484. See also Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill
Interim Supply and. See Interim Supply Labour employment bureau, 2852 List, qu. 1349
Manual labourers, 2830-9, 2841-69, 2877-84, 4278-4460
Meetings in Government buildings, qu. 3421 Naval veterans, and. 3686 Organizations, 797, 2850 Outside Service, qu. 2820, 2876-80
Cost of placing under Commission, 794 Railway Department, 1653 Should be taken from Commission, 815 Political partisanship, 828 Political patronage, 2778-81. 2824-40, 28436, 2855-83, 3248. See also Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill; Speeches on Res. (Sir Sam Hughes)
Census appointments, 800, 806, 808, 809 Committee to investigate, 790 Declaration against, 822 Opposed to, 797
Res. (Sir Sam Hughes) 789; withdrawn, S36
Preference to disabled soldiers, 4049 Prevailing rates of pay, qu. 3089 Printing Bureau, qu. 1234, 2827. See also that title
Professional, scientific and technical officers, 2830-43; 2866-84
Civil Service-Con.
Reform, 2844-71
Religious holidays, 1384, qu. 1499, 2626, 2775, 4484. See also Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill
Reorganization, 1335, 4465, 4541, 4555. See also under this title Classification American firm, employment, 517 Griffenhagen and Associates, 551, 799, 802, 813, 816, 2242, 2623, 2781, 2827, 4117 Officers detailed to assist, 600 Post Office Department, 4514. See also that title
Retirement, 2826, 4266. See also Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill Barsalou, Mr., 2490
Customs and Inland Revenue Dept., 4117 Postmaster at Montreal, qu. 566 Provincial service, 2487-98 Report of Commission on, 1817 Survey staff, 2143
Returned Soldiers and, qu. 963, 2828, qu, 3259, qu. 3531, 4257, 4482. See also that title
Rural postmasters, 2829, 2833-41, 2866-84. See also Post Office
Superannuation, qu. 734, qu. 967, 2489, 2820. See also debates under Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill; Retirement Fund, taxation of, qu. 1237 Increased allowances to meet cost of living, 2112, 2491, qu. 3903, 4275, 4541 Application for, qu. 2099 Permanent Superannuation Act, 4277 Postmaster at Toronto, 566 Transfers, 2847-85 Unrest in, 795
Federal Union No. 66, 795 Whitley Councils, qu. 2820 Women in, employment, 2286 Civil Service Act, 1918, Amendment Bill lr., 2865; m. for 2r„ 2778, 2823; amdt. (Mr. Maclean, Halifax) 2835; neg. 2887, 2r„ 2887; com., 4278-80; 4460; 3r., 4493 Special Committee Appointed, 2776 Discussed, 2778 First report, 2940 Concurred in, 3005 Second report, 3088 Third and final report, 3901 Discussed, 4278-80 Subjects and Sections Discussed:
Air Force, preference, 4483 Annual report, 4473-81; Amdt. 4482 Commission, jurisdiction of, 4460-82 Commission may make regulations, 4461 Customs officials, 4268
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[Stage Direction]
xxvii
Clark, Mr. Michael-Con.
Budget-Con.
dustries, 3227; taxation of land values, 3229; income tax, 3229; direct taxation, 3230; boots and shoes, 3230; tariff burdens, 3231
Business of the House
Complaint of undue haste, 4451 Duration of sittings, 1330 Wednesday evening adjournment, 1830 Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 2253-9
Canadian Government Merchant Marine, 1283
Canadian National Railways
Management, Information, M. (Mr. King) 1191, 1806
Special Committee, reference to, M. (Mr. Meighen) 1769, 1801
Canadian representation in the United States, 2396-2436 Cattle embargo, 704, 728 Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill Holidays, religious, 4492 Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 4268-73
Criminal Code Amdt. Bill
Crime and sin, distinction between, 3910 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Expense, 4395-4400 Fee, who pays? 3806 German reparation, 4429 Imports and exports, 4397 Increase in tariff, 4398 Invoice certificate, fee, 4397 Officials, appointment of more, 4398 Prohibitive legislation, 4420 Prohibitive tariff, 4429 Reparation Act in Great Britain, 4429 Restriction of trade, 4398 Roumania, 4429 Trade agents, 3805 Trade of other countries, 4430 Trade with United States, 4397-4400 Valuation for duty, 4419 Valuation of currency, 4429 Customs Tariff Act, 1907, Amdt. Bill
Imported goods, marking of, 3724, 3939-51 District Engineer's Office, Edmonton, 4543 Estimates, Committee on, 2201 French Trade Agreement, 2131 Highways, 3029, 3032
Construction in Ontario, 4294, 4305 Immigration, 2579-93, 3056-66 Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill, 4344-54 Latitude in debate, 1451 League of Nations, contribution to, 2370
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Volume IV:: Clark, Mr. Michael-Con.
Maisonneuve Bind GaspS representation, 2315, 4437
Naval holiday, 4020 Naval Service, 4016-19
"Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale-point of order, 4031
Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3853-88 Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Amdt. Bill, 2902
Polish battalion for service in Frency army, 4059
Prime Ministers' Conference, 2639-58 Privilege-report in Ottawa Citizen, 448 Protected industries and export, 3631 Protective policy, 1288
Reciprocity agreement with United States, 2045
Reparations-difficulties between Allied Powers and Germany, 599 Representation in Parliament, 1314 Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt.
Bill (Ministers and directorships), 655 Shipbuilding, 1283, 1683, 1866, 1874, 1880. 1917, 1924 Closure, 1931
Newspaper comment, 1934 Progress in discussion, 1938 Soldiers' pensions, insurance and re-establishment, 4059
Taxation, incomes of $200,000 or over, qu. 838
Wheat Board, 1453, 1458 Clarke, Mr. W. A. (North Wellington)
Criminal Code Amdt.-docking animals, 3923
Clark's Harbour, public building, 2817 Classification. See that title under Civil Service
Clay. See also Natural Resources Crockery for, 3384-5 Deposits in Saskatchewan, 846
Clements, Mr. H. S. (Comox-Alberni) Fisheries of British Columbia, 890 Halibut industry, 891 Natural resources, 890 Closure, Rule 17B. 1844. See also Interim Supply; Shipbuilding Government Shipbuilding Programme, 1979-2094
Interim Supply, 2025
Formal motion, 2026; agreed to, 2076 2 a.m. rule, 2094 Clover and Grass Seed, 1109 Coal. See also Fuel Supply Problem; Lignite; Mines and Minerals; Natural Resources


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Coal-Con.
American competition with Nova Scotia, 3295
Canadian-owned railway mines in United States, 4316
Carriage of. See Fuel Supply; Railways;
Transportation Consumption in Canada, 1249 Deposits, Aliberta penitentiary, 1092 Development, 842, 848 Maritime Provinces in, 1281, 3295 Prices at mine, 1251 Production and value, 3515 Railway rates on, 390. See also Railways, Freight rates
Railways, duty on, 1184, 1187 Reserve, 1247-8 Resources in Alberta, 857 St. Lawrence route, by, 1731. See also Great Lakes-St. Lawrence Scarcity of. See Fuel Supply Problem Trade, 1936. See also Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Shipbuilding Wales, from, 1716
Wasting of. See Fuel Supply Problem Water carriage, 2963. See also Great Lakes-St. Lawrence
Coastal Trade, 1494. See also Shipping
Coats, Mr. R. H., 801, 1231. See also Census; Dominion Statistician
Cocaine Imports, 3130, 3170. See also Opium and Narcotic Drugs
Cockshutt, Mr. W. F. (Brantford)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 91; tribute to new Prime Minister, 91; speech of Mr. Gauthier, a " family fight "; stability and selfrespect of Quebec, 92; price of agricultural implements, 93; Opposition- amendment-the Government's mandate, 94; census, redistribution and appeal to country, 95; Agrarian party; expenditure of Ontario Government, 96; tariff and exchange situation- League of Nations, 97; disarmament, reparations, indemnities-taxation, 98; relations between Canada and the Mother Country-Judicial Committee of Privy	Council-Governor	General;
agitation and unrest, 99; modern fads, 100
Binder twine, 3746, 3493 Brantford Customs office, 3086 Budget, 3488. Congratulations to Finance Minister, 3488; taxation severe, 3488; Leader of Agrarian party and manufacturers, 3489; co-operation between
Cockshutt, Mr. W. F.-Con.
Budget-Con.
farmers and manufacturers, 3489; industrial census, 3490; agricultural implements and Western Grain Growers, 3492; Binder twine and free trade, 3493; home market, 3494; free trade with Britain, 3494; agricultural implement industry, 3496 Canadian National Railways
Special Committee, reference to, M. (A. K. Maclean), 1612
Canadian representation in the United States, 2402-11 Cattle embargo, 718 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Express parcels, 4403 Fee-who pays? 3802, 4402 Invoice certificate, 3802, 4401 Toronto Board of Trade, 4402 Trade
Agents and commissioners, 3802, 4402 Extension, 4403	*
Director of exporting company. 3564 Dominion Elections Act Arndt. Bill, 308 Dr. Graham Bell's secretary, 2377 Housing, 1150
Income Tax Act Amdt Bill, 4350-3 League of Nations, contribution to, 2360-7 North American Trust Co., 1128 Parliament buildings, 3999 Pensions, widowed mothers, 637 Permanent Court of International Justice, 2724
Proportional representation, 1546 Reciprocity agreement with United States, 2058
References to, 451, 491
Senate and House of Commons (Ministers and directorships) Act Amdt. Bill, 660 Shipbuilding, 1878, 1881
Cocoa
Cocoa paste and chocolate, 3703 Duties on, 3170
Coffee Adulteration, 3141
Coinage. See also Currency Act Amdt. Bill Cent coin, 2161
Gold, melting down, 2160, 2269 Gold, standard, 2269 Nickel, five cent coin, 2160, 2269 Redemption of, 2160
Cold Storage. See also Dairying Industry; Health of Animals Foodstuffs in, qu. 1347 Fruit, 1041 Meat of, 1125 Plants. See Live Stock Warehouses, 1038


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[Stage Direction]
Collingwood breakwater, 3973
Collingwood Shipbuilding Company,, 1884, 1890, 1902. See also Shipbuilding
Colonial Conferences, 3432. See also Prime Ministers' Conference
Combines, 3293-5, 3382
Combines and Fair Prices Act, 3606
Commercial Exhibits, director of, 1225
Commercial Feeding Stuffs. See also Stock feed
Commercial Intelligence, Director of, 1219 Commercial Museum, 1227
Commercial Relations. See Address; Budget; Canadian Representation; Customs and Excise; Reciprocity; Trade
Commercial Treaties, 2378. See also Canada-West Indies; French Trade Agreement; Reciprocity
Commission of Conservation. See Conservation Commission
Commissioner of Patents, 623
Report, 107
Commissioners, Judges as. Sec Judges Act Arndt. Bill
Commissions of Inquiry.	See Printing
Bureau; Grain Trade
Committee of Supply. See Supply
Committee on Imperial Defence, 2637-49. See also Imperial Defence; Prime Ministers' Conference
Committee on Railways and Shipping. Sec
Canadian National Railways
Committees, Standing. See House of Commons
Commodities, Taxes on, 3221. See also Special War Revenue Act
Compensation for Slaughtered Animals. See
Health of Animalis
Condensed Milk, tax, 3737, 3956 Confederation. See Ministers
Conference on International Finance, report tabled, 962
Confidence Games. See Criminal Code Arndt. Bill
Confidential Documents. See Canadian National Railways
Confidential Information. See Canadian National Railways-Management
Confidential Messengers, 1079-80
Conscription, 3200, 3517, 3528. See also Military Service Act; Quebec riots
Consent of the House. See House of Commons; Deputy Speaker; Speaker
Consequential Amendments. See Corrupt Practices at Elections
Conservation Act Repeal Bill
lr., 3739; 2r„ 3958; com., 3970; 3r., 3971
Conservation Commission
Abolition of, 2, 875, 3146, 3739, 3958, 3970-1 Illustration farms, 949-954
Consolidated Revenue Fund, surplus from Grain Board, 1447
Constituent and Subsidiary Companies. See
Canadian National Railways; Railways
Constitutional Development. See Address; Canadian Representation; Ministers; Prime Ministers' Conference
Consular Agents. See Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; Trade
Consular Certificates. See Trade, Agents and Commissioners
Consuls. See also Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Serbian, at Montreal, qu. 605 United States, in Canada, 2405
Contracts. See Purchasing Commission; Shipbuilding
Controverted Elections Act. See Corrupt Practices at Elections
Convicts. See Penitentiaries
Cook, Mr. Fred, 4541,	4557-60. See also
Printing Bureau
Cooper, Col. John A., qu. 697, 1713
Cooper, Mr. Hugh L., of New York. See Chippewa Power Canal
Cooper, Mr. R. C. (Vancouver South)
Soldiers' pensions, insurance and re-establishment, report, 4055-60
Co-operative Marketing. See Live Stock
Copp, Mr. Arthur B. (Westmorland)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 445; Minister of Militia; his
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Copp, Mr. Arthur B.-Con.
Address-Con.
position from 1911 to 1917; an exponent of free trade in natural products; speeches of mover and seconder, 446; the amendment-constitutional position of Government; the written and unwritten laws-Bourinot; moral obligation to appeal to people; Ministers in disagreement-public opinion demands election; the precedent of 1911, 449; War election of 1917-formation of Union Government-retirements, 451; responsibility implies public confidence; Mr. Calder; Mr. Spinney; Postmaster General; Minister of Customs and Inland Revenue, 452; St. John Standard, 453; political conditions 1891 to 1896, 454; returned soldiers calling for election; Great War Veterans Association, 455; strength of the Liberal party, 456 Agricultural estimates, increases in, 951 Air Board, 3783 Amherst drill hall, 2739 Canadian National Railways, 4561, 4338 Employees, reduction in number, 1851 Freight rates, 4562 Maritime Provinces, 4561 Private ears, 4563 Staff, 4562
Census enumerators in Moncton county. 3972
Census officials, 830 Civil Service, political patronage, 830 Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 2489-90 Customs
Belvea, Mr., retirement of, 3082 Offices, amalgamation of, 3083 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Amalgamation of departments, 3820 Inland Revenue Act-administration, 3820
Customs Tariff Act Amdt., marking of imported goods, 3949
Debates, translation of French speeches, 701
Dominion Lands Act Amdt. Bill, 4068 Dorchester penitentiary Purchases for, 1108 Salaries, 1096 Warden, 1092 Dredging, 3982
Forts Cumberland and Moncton, care of, 4540
Fredericton experimental farm, qu. 1131 Grand Trunk loan, 4136-67 Harbours and rivers, 3973
Copp, Mr. Arthur B.-Con.
Highways, 3023, 3034, 4290, 4303 Immigration, salaries, 3059 Imperial Mineral Resources Bureau, 2166 Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill Intercolonial Railway, 4561 Judges Act Amdt. Bill, 2119-20, 2151 Justice Department, private secretaries, 1079
"Laurentian," Government steamer, qu. 1348
Marine signal service, 1998 Moncton, examining warehouse, 2815 "Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale, 4031-2 Parliament Buildings, 4070 Partridge Island quarantine station, 2810 Pilotage, 1999, 2001 Railway Department Purchasing agent, 1670 St. John and Quebec Railway Bill, 2153, 4564
St. John Rolling Mills. See "Niobe" and "Rainbow"
Sackville public building, 2816 Shediac and Cape Tormentine Railway, 4564
Sheridan, Mr. John, resignation of, 4505 Shipbuilding, 1905, 1931, 1935 Wednesday evening adjournment, 1837 Welland canal, construction, 2996
Copyright Amendment and Consolidation Bill, 2, 649
lr., 350; 2r., ref. to Special Com., 2909; com., 3830.	3r., 3850; Senate Arndts,
concurred in, 4256 Special Com. appointed, 2941 Report, 3761
Subjects and Sections discussed:
Acts of United Kingdom, 3833-46 Berne Convention, 3833 License to print, 3831-7 Phonographic discs, 3832 Publication in serial form, 3844 Royalty, 3831
Second or succeeding editions, 3840 Suppression of works, 3838
Corn Borer, 1025, 1027, 1031
Corning, W. H., cattle purchases, qu. 1624
Cornmeal, 3546
Correspondence. See also Canadian National Railways
Availability to Parliament, 1290-1
Corrupt Practices Inquiries Act
Bill withdrawn, 1126
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[Stage Direction]
Corrupt Practices at Elections Bill
lr., 1126-7; 2r., 2036; com., 2036; 3r„ 2161 Subjects and Sections Discussed:
Avoidance of election, 2037 Exoneration, of candidate from consequence of illegal practices, 2037 Exoneration of any person from consequences, etc., 2037 Illegal practices, 2036 Judge's report published, 2037 Presenting petition, 2037 Punishment of corrupt or illegal practices, 2037
Cory, Mr. W. W., and Immigration Department, 3056
Cost of Living, 3169, 3226, 3256, 3548, 3606, 4551. See also Address; Budget; Civil Service Bonus; Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; Superannuation, Increased allowances
Cote, Hon. Mr., Provincial Secretary, Alberta, 1266
Coughlan Shipbuilding Company, 1890
County Fairs. See Agricultural Shows; Live Stock
Courtenay Bay, improvements, 4097. See also St. John Harbour
Cowan, Mr. G. H., K.C., legal expenses, 2187
Cowan, Mr. Walter D. (Regina)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 165; Canada at Assembly of League of Nations-election-agitation and unrest, 165; abnormal business conditions-visit of leader of Opposition to western provinces; the tariff, 166; newspaper comment; opinions of business men and returned soldiers, 167; omission of tariff from amendment; unfair to hold election before redistribution, 168; duty on fruit; express rates; Scientific and Industrial research, 164
Agrarian party and Wheat Board, 1455 ' Briquetting plant at Bienfait, qu. 673 Budget, 3375. Congratulations to Minister of Finance, 3375; attitude of Opposition and Agrarian party, 3376; Agrarian party and free trade, 3376; loan to Belgium, 3377; agricultural machinery and the tariff; 3379; Customs duties and manufacturers, 3380; free trade and combines, 3382; price-fixing ring in Great Britain, 3383; protective tariff and Western Canada, 3384; agricultural implements, duty on, 3386-7
Cowan, Mr. Walter D.-Con.
Canadian Northern, Craven line, 3053 Canadian Wheat Board, qu. 340, 341, 1452, 1455
Flax-growing, 1396
Fuel Supply Problem, 1266
Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 685
Natural resources, 845
Saskatchewan militia organization, 2795-6 Trade commissioners, 1392
Cow-Testing Associations, 1036
Creamer, Dr. J. P., qu. 1236
Creameries. See Dairying Industry
Cream Separators, 3328, 3364, 3495, 3481, 3508. See also Agricultural Implements
Credits. Sec Finance; Housing; Loans
Crerar, Hon. T. A. (Marquette)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 262; congratulations to Prime Minister; to mover and seconder; the Speech a meagre bill of fare-freedom from unrest; Speeches of the Prime Minister; fishing in Quebec; unemployment insurance and old age pensions; tariff revision, 263; protection to agriculture; revenue, 264; finances; necessity for economy; expenditures, 265; naval and militia votes; trade and exchange; Great Britain, Australia, and United States, 266; need for extended markets; reciprocity, 267; commercial agents, 268; national railways; deficit; special committee suggested; reorganization of board of directors; immigration, 269; Prime Ministers' Conference; Imperial defence; the amendment; Government has lost confidence of country; by-elections; reorganization of Government, 271; redistribution; serious problems, 272 Archives, provision for, 2951 Budget, 3476. Reference to previous speakers in debate; national debt and Finance Minister's surplus, 3476; revenues and expenditures, 3477; maturing loans, provision for, 3478; Agrarian party-" servile tools and minions "-[DOT] 3479; York-Sunbury election. Government plhtform, 3480; Binder twine industry, 3481; cream separators, 3481; tariff revision, 3482; adverse exchange and protection, 3482; export trade, 3483; boot and shoe industry, 3484; Sherwin-Williams Paint Company, 3484; sales tax, 3485; income taxes in
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Crerar, Hon. T. A.-Con.
Budget-Cm.
Canada and Great Britain, 3486: land taxation, 3486; agricultural products; restricted market and decline in value, 3487; rigid economy in expenditure necessary, 3487 Business of the House Audibility of debates, 1625 Saturday sittings, 2818 By-elections Medicine Hat, 2151 York-Sunbury, 3480, 3628 Canada Temperance Act, 4379 Canadian National Railways Lord Shaughnessy's letter, 2503 Management 

 Information, M. (Mr. King) 1187 Special Committee M. (Mr. Maclean) 1184 M. (Mr. Meighen) 1776, 1804 Amdt. 1812, 1813
Canadian Representation in the United ' States, 2412-17 Canal tolls, 2964
Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2835-66 Deceased members, tribute to, 153 Destruction of documents, 2951 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4239-41 Additional courts, 3111 Alien wives of British subjects, 3106 Certificate of naturalization qualification, 4240 Forms, 4240
Government terminal elevators-overages, 3634
Governor General, address to on retirement, 4434
Grain Growers Grain Company, 3180 Grain inquiry
Proposed commissioners, 1674 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2449-59 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 689 Highway construction in Ontario, 4294-6 Hudson Bay Railway, 998 Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill. 4345 Judge Snider's report, 4436 Lake of the Woods Control Board Bill, 2351-2
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 41844224
Migratory Birds Convention Act Amdt. Bill, 2891
Natural resources-transfer to western provinces, 2529-46 Navigation, season of, 1994 Owens, the late Thomas P., Editor of Debates, 259
Post Office Department, 4519
Crerar, Hon. T. A.-Con.
Proportional representation, 1545, 1546 Railway Commission, vacancy, 3021 References to, 367, 372, 390, 395, 438, 450, 515. See also Speeches on Address; Budget
Resignation of. letter, Sir Robert Borden, 516
Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt.
(Ministers and directorships) 662 Senate Committee, leave to attend, 3207, 3259
Shipbuilding, attitude on, 1978, 2082 Speaker's Chair, presentation of, 3694 Trent canal, 2971-8 Welland canal, 2974
Wheat Board, position with regard to, 1452 York-Sunbury election, 3480 Debates, official report of, changes in, 3628
Reference to by Mr. Stevens, 3627-8
Criminal Cases
Appeals, 3006 Procedure, 3006
Criminal Code Amendment Bills
1.	Aliens and Firearms (Mr. Currie) lr.,
2373; Bills withdrawn, 2560; (See Bill No. 7)
2.	Excessive or Inadequate Punishments
(Mr. Tweedie) lr., 695; M. for 2r. stands, 1856, 1857, 2228 ,
3.	Defamatory Libel. (Mr. Archambault)
lr., 2149, 3933
4.	Probation of Offenders. (Mr. Mowat) lr.,
2097. (See No. 7)
5.	Three Card Monte (Mr. Lafortune) lr.,
1439; 2r., 1857; com., 1857-58; 2555; (See No. 7)
6.	Warrant of Commitment (Mr. Mewburn) lr., 2686
7.	Age of Consent; Firearms; Motor Car
Theft; Recorder's Court Jurisdiction; Seduction; etc. (Mr. Doherty) lr.. 3005-7; 2r., 3830; com., 3830-96; 3906; 3r., 3938; Senate Arndts, concurred in, 4342
Subjects and Sections discussed:
Animals, docking, 3922-36, 4343 Carnally knowing, 3912, 4342 Chattels, $25 in value, fraudulently burning, 3922, 4343
Clerk or Deputy Clerk of Peace, 3936 Commencement of Act, 3S32 Concealed weapons, pistols, ammunition, etc., 3900-33 Disorderly house, 3925 Dogs-docking, 3936
Driving motor vehicles while intoxicated, 3911
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[Stage Direction]
xxxiii
Criminal Code Amendment Bills-Con. Subjects and Sections Discussed-Con. Falsely registering at hotel as man and wife, 3909
Feeble-minded, 3896-3932 Forms, 3932 Horses, docking, 3923 Illicit connection with Indian woman 3907
Indecent assault-age raised from 14 to 16, 3911, 4342 Location of land, 4343.
Marks made on public stores, 3921 Metal tokens used as money. 3923 Offender under suspended sentence may be placed on probation, 3931 Officials stealing fares, 3925 Penalty for injuring oil wells, etc., extended to gas wells, 3922 Publication of Judicial Proceedings-Defamatory libel, 3933
Rape-whipping added to punishment, 3912
Reading depositions on preliminary inquiry, 3924
Recorder's Court, 3899 Revising of sentences, 4343 Seduction and carnal knowledge, 3899, 4342
Spanking-persons under 21 and guilty of theft, liable to, 3918 Stealing automobiles, minimum sentence for, 3913
Three Card Monte, 3921 Whipping for robbery and assault with intent to rob, 3922 Witness fees, 3937
Cromwell's Navigation Act, 1872
Cronyn, Mr. Hume (London) .
Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill, 2922 Civil Service Act. Amdt. Bill Air Force, preference, 4483 Returned Soldiers, preference, Amdt. 4482, 4493, 4577 Housing, 1146
National Research Institute, 886, 2695 Natural resources, 885 Pension Act Amdt. Bill, 4366-73 Pensions, widowed mothers, 633, 4369 Polish battalion for service in French army, 4055
Returned Soldiers' Insurance Act Amdt.
Bill), 4262, 4356 Returned Soldiers
Special Committee on Pensions, Insurance and Re-establishment
Cronyn, Mr. Hume-Con.
Returned Soldiers-Con.
Motion for adoption of report, 4041-55. See also Returned Soldiers, Special Committee Civil Service Quorum, 901
Crop Reports, 1116
Crops, Loss of through insect pests, 1028
Crowe, Mr. S. J. (Burrard)
Currency Act Amdt. Bill, 2269
Crown, taxation of the, 3742
Cruelty to Animals. See Criminal Code
Amendment Bill
Currant Boxes. See Berry Boxes
Currency Act Amendment Bill
Res. 2160; lr„ 2162; 2r„ com., 2269; 3r„ 2270
Currie, Mr. J. A. (North Simcoe)
Adams, Capt. Henry C., qu. 1237 Armistice Day Bill, 3776 Australian and New Zealand trade, 1223 Automobile theft, 3914 Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill, 2925 Berry Boxes, 4115 Business of the House, 1831 Supply, procedure,
Discussion not in order, 1217 Hypothetical questions, 1217 Canadian Manufacturers and American markets, 1223
Canadian National Railways Management-Information, M. (Mr. King) 1194
Cattle embargo, qu. 714 Chief Justice, income tax and, 1566 Chinese Immigration Act Amdt. Bill, 3828 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2825-48-83, 4283, 4466-93 Annual report, 4473 Holidays, religious, point of order, 4485 Returned soldiers-preference, 4493 Stayner postmaster, 4471 Copyright Amendment and Consolidation Bill, 3835-41
Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3900-34 Firearms, 2373, 2560 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Commercial agencies, 4408 Consular certificate, 4408 "Dick Turpin"-point of order, 4421 Dumping of goods, 4412 Invoice certificate, fee, 4391
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[Stage Direction]
Customs and Inland Revenue
Department
Board of Customs, 4126 Consolidation of offices, 3083 Estimates, 2889, 3077, 4117 Inspectors, 4126 Officials
Merchandise, branding of. See Customs Tariff Act Arndt. Bill Overtime, 4123-5 Reorganization, 804 Retirement, 2490-7, 2502, 4268-72 Salaries and contingent expenses, 2889, 3081, 4117
Staff, reduction, 4117 Toronto, 1351
Revenue cruisers and preventive service, 4127
Minister, private business connections, 3077, 3172
Customs Tariff Act, 1907, Arndt. Bill
Res. 3121, 3698; lr„ 3725; 2r., com., 3938; 3r., 3955
Subjects and sections discussed:
Anodynes, elixirs, etc., 3709 Imported goods to be marked, branded or labelled, 3711-19, 3938 Spirituous liquors, 3708-8 Sugar, 3699
West Indian importations, preference, 3698 Wines
Medicinal, 3709
Other than sparkling, 3710
Sparkling, 3711
Dairy Cattle. See Health of Animals; Live Stock
Dairy Herds, testing of, 1118
Dairying Industry, 1036,	3118. See also
Address; Budget; Dairy Produce, Grading; Oleomargarine Butter
Material for substitutes, 3745 Price of, 3190, 3256 Production, 3118 Butter and Cheese
Exports and imports, 1037, 1470, 1471, 3747-50, 3852-88, 4438 Cheese factories, 1472 National Dairy Council, 1126
Dairy Produce, Grading Bill
Res., lr., 3760; 2r., com., 4439; 3r., 4448 Subjects and sections discussed:
Butter and cheese, export, 4437 Complaint of undue haste, 4449 Definitions, 4437
Dairy Produce Grading Bill-Con.
Subjects and Sections Discussed-Con. Demand for legislation, 4437 Regulations, 4448
d'Anjou, Mr. Emmanuel (Rimouski)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 137; right of Mr. Mackenzie King to lead Liberal party-overtures of Government to Province of Quebec; the French language, 138; Government without authority to carry on administration; Prime Minister the author of iniquitous laws, 139 Agricultural shows, 1240 Debates, translation of French speeches. 700
Experimental station in Rimouski, 954 Lightkeepers' salaries, 1995 Military expenditure, 2801 Shipbuilding, 1924
Dark Lantern Brigade, 1187, 1192, 1209, 1282
Davidson, Mr. A. L. (Digby and Annapolis) Annapolis public building, 2743 Apple-growing counties of Nova Scotia, 1046
British preference and free trade, 3666 Canada Temperance Act-relevancy, point of order, 4383
Canadian Wheat Board, participation certificates, 341
Guernsey cattle at Nappan, qu. 2686 Highways expenditure, 2555 Proportional representation, Special Com., 2027
Reference to Hon. Mr. Mackenzie King in speech, 2443
Davie Shipbuilding Company, qu. 1348, 1846, 1972
Davis, Mr. F. L. (Neepawa)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 483; congratulations to Prime Minister; "no man's land"; formation and composition of Government; out of touch -with electorate, 483; Progressive platform; Liberal party; tariff "opportunism"; transportation; Committee on Estimates; Imperial relations; excess profits tax; demand by western provinces for natural resources, 484; redistribution and election, 485
American immigration, 3064 Budget, 3262. Business and financial depression, 3262; business profits and income tax, 3262; heavy freight rates, 3263; adverse balance of trade, 3264; exchange variation, 3264; debts and
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Davis, Mr. F. L.-Con.
Budget-Con.
obligations, 3265; United States, borrowings from, 3266 Canadian National Railways Management-Information, M. (Mr. King) 1193
Special Committee, reference to, M. (Mr. Meighen) 1793
Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill, 4283 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Cost of production, 4413 English bankers on trade restriction, 4412
Exchange, 4413
Foreign goods, cost of production, 3814 German goods via Holland, England and the United States, 4427 Money-purchasing power and exchange value, 4427
New and unused goods, 3815 Valuation for duty, 4412 Valuation of currency, 3816, 4427 Wages, 4428
Customs Tariff Act, 1907, Amdt. Bill, imported goods, marking, 3940 Estimates, Committee on, 484, 2197 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2458-70 Grand Trunk loan, 4146 Hudson Bay Railway, 994, 2969 Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4220 Militia-reduction of staff, 2241 Natural resources-transfer to western provinces, 2537
Proportional representation, 1542 Welland canal construction, 2967-8 Wheat Board, unified buying, 1459
Dawson, Judge at, 1088
Daylight Saving, 401, qu. 1817 Ottawa, in, qu. 2687, 2776
Dease and Stikine Rivers, qu. 1133
Debates, Official, Report of. See House of Commons
Decayed Pilots, 2000. See also Pilots
Dechene, Mr. A. M. (Montmagny) Agricultural Gazette, 1076 Agricultural shows, 1243 Boat'd of Trade forms in French, 2819, 3320 Budget, 3466. Government system of taxation; war profits tax and large companies; income tax, 3467; Yamas&a election, 3467; railway administration, 3469; Are insurance in foreign firms, 3469
Dechene, Mr. A. M.-Con.
Butter
Exports, 1037 Price of, 3256
Butter and cheese exports, 1471 Civil Service Bonus, 4535 Classification, 4541 Dairy Products Grading Bill, 4446 Government shipbuilding programme, 2094 Immigration, salaries, 3057 Militia employees, 2241
Montmagny-railway shed accommodation, 4570
Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3759, 3860 Post Office, Isles aux Grues-Montmagny service, 4529 Potato diseases, 1032 Public Works-Nova Scotia, 2754 Special War Revenue Act Amdt.
Missals and prayer books, 3756 Prayer beads and crucifixes, 3756 Sales tax, 3757 Supply-point of order, 2759
Decorations, foreign, to Canadians, qu. 1132
Defamatory Libel. See Criminal Code Amdt. Bills
Delinquent Children, 3012. See also Juvenile Delinquents
Delisle, Mr. M. S. (Portneuf)
Cabinet Ministers and Post Office Dept., - qu. 1349
Canadian National Railways
Conductors and brakemen discharged, qu. 1622
Post Office Department-reorganization, 3772
De Martigny Divorce. See Private Bills Discussed
Demers, Mr. M. J. (St. Johns and Iberville) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 232; congratulations to mover and seconder; general election, Inevitable, 232; circumstances under which Government was formed; manipulation of soldier votes in 1917; no relief until constitutional government restored: Prime Minister's attitude towards Quebec, 233; all classes anxious for general election; necessity for rigid economy, 234
Budget, 3437. Financial and economic condition of country, 3437; railway deficit.


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[Stage Direction]
xxxvii
Demers, Mr. M. J.-Con.
Budget-Con.
3438; shipbuilding, 3438; military expenditure, 3440; economy in public affairs, 3440
Deposits outside Canada in Canadian banks, qu. 1623
Fort Lennox, Isle-aux-Noix, sundial, qu. 2097
Pecuniary Claims Convention, qu. 736, qu. 1817; qu. 2027
Permanent Court of International Justice, 2718-22
St. Jean Post office, receipts, qu. 576
Demobilization, 2285, 3523. See also Soldiers Civil Re-establishment; Special Committee on Pensions, Insurance and Reestablishment.
Canadian claims against Germany, 4534. See also Germany
Enemy debts, 4534	[DOT]
Public Works, 3989
Democratic Government. See Ministers Demography, Chief of, 1232 Denis, Mr. J. J. (Joliette)
Address in reply to- Governor General's Speech, 539; French language; speech of Prime Minister a document without fragrance, flavour or taste, 540; the new Government and the old; Prime Minister's tour; general election; position of Government precarious and humiliating, 541; province of Quebec, 542; League of Nations; French speaking representatives; International Labour Conference, 544; financial position of Canada, 545; amendments, 546; ten years without an election; the one issue of 1917; fiscal policy, 547
Alcohol, tax on, 3732
Budget, 3575. Approved by industrial interests, 3575; sales tax bears heavily on working classes, 3576; tax on spirits, 3576; railway situation, 3577; immigration policy, 3580; military expenditures, 3580
Business of the House Duration of sittings, 3733 Private Bills, 39,71
Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 2257-8
Canadian National Railways Joliette bridge, 3038, 4320
Canadian Representation in the United States, 2419-21
Census commissioners in province of Quebec, 832
Denis, Mr. J. J.-Con.
Chinese Immigration Act Amdt. Bill, 3828 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2865 Civil Service, political patronage, 831 Criminal Code Amendment Bill, 3830 Customs and Excise Dept. Billl Valuation of currency, 3818 Dairy Produce, grading Bill, 3760 Debates, official, distribution of, 2221 De Martigny divorce, 4002-6 Estimates in French, 1385 Grand Trunk loan, 4159-62 Highways, Quebec, 4308 Immigration, 2598, 3088 Immigration Act Amdt. Bill, 3825 Income Tax Act Consolidation, 2819, 3905 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3759, 3877, Amdt. to 2r„ 3879, neg. 3886 Privilege-Immigration, remarks on, 3088 Proportional representation, 1543 Quarantine stations, 2811 Special War Revenue Act Amdt. Bill Amendments, 3755 Lumber, tax on, 3756-7 Sales tax, 3755
Departmental Expenditures. See also Supply, Depts.
Detailed information, 1186-7 Departments
Purchasing Commission, 1099 Supply, right of discussion, 1215. See also Supply
Deportation of Undesirables. See Immigration Act Amdt. Bill
Depot Harbour, wharf, 3973 Deputy Governor General, 1559
Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committees (Mr. George H. Boivin)
Rulings and Statements of. See also House of Commons; Speaker Amendment
Changing destination of vote, 4169, 4289 Mover may not speak second time without consent, 727 Sent across floor, 764 To Public or Government Bill, 4485 Announcement by Minister in Committee, of Governor General's assent, 4169 Bills
Amendments
Involving or increasing charge on public revenue, 4359, 4485-91 Negativing principle, 3895 Which do not alter principle, 4355 Committee
Discussion of principle in, 779 Notice of amdt. to public or government Bill not required, 4485
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xxxix
Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committee (Mr. George H. Boivin)-Con.
Rulings and Statements of-Con.
Member-Con.
Must not entirely forget subject under discussion, 996
Must rise to ask questions, 3216, 3553 Putting question without giving opportunity for reply, 4471 Right to close debate, 1528 Right to state point of order, 2322 Should speak to question, 1898 Sitting not entitled to answer question until member speaking yields floor, 4402
Two members cannot occupy floor at same time, 4467
Message from Governor General, 4169, 4289
Ministers
Comparison between. 3944 Official conduct of, 3079 Motions Amended
Purchasing Commission, 2020 In absence of notice require unanimous consent, 3088, 3259, 3582 Mover to close debate, 2206, 2210 Negative, not in order, 2920, 3952, 4411 Non-debatable
Adjournment, for, 2148 That Committee rise, 2230, 2774, 4203 That further consideration be postponed, 1389, 2025, 3716 To refer back, 1130 Non-debatable subjects Already debated, 2406 Notice of Motion
Action on does not imply acceptance of principle, 584 Order-Point of
Attacks or reflections on judiciary, 1570 Denial does not constitute, 2322 Discussion, 1218
Interim Supply, 2011	t
When raised members must confine remarks to it, 2009 Pairs-none in Committee, 4531 Previous debate, 3533, 3562, 4212, 4401 Questions
Not relevant, may be asked by consent, 2113
Not in order on item, 3065 Relevancy, 1035, 1345, 1571, 1772, 1898, 2113, 2175, 2405, 2747, 2751-59, 2761, 2916, 2966, 2990, 3003, 4158, 4313 Canadian National Railways, directors, 1667
Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committee (Mr. George H. Boivin)-Con.
Rulings and Statements of-Con.
Relevancy-Con.
Discussion of "Niobe" and "Rainbow" on estimate for Royal Canadian Navy, 4031
Highway construction in Ontario, 4293-6
Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill, 4354-5 Interrogation of Govt, on estimates to be taken up, 1218
Question not in order on item before Chair, 1669, 3065 Resolutions
Amendments to not reported, 3755 Consideration, item by item, 3026 Ruling may be appealed but not questioned, 779
Speaker's Chair, speech on presentation, 3691
Notice of presentation, 3688 Statement not a question, 4056 Supply
Agreement as to contentious items, 4538 Amendment changing destination of vote, 4169, 4289
Amendments in-discussion must be relevant, 1191, 1583
Announcement of consent of Governor General, 4169, 4289
Discussion confined to specific item, 944, 919, 3066
Government orders may be called in sequence as Government think fit, 962 Individual Items, motion to strike out, 3015 Interim
Further consideration of item postponed, 1682 Motion, 1674 Notice not required, 1676 Resolution can only be considered by unanimous consent, 1680 Item by item, 3014, 3132 Item disposed of discussion not in order, 1090
Latitude of discussion, 3014 Liberty to discuss any subject on item allowed to stand, 4033 Minister in order in asking that item be called, 961
Mounted Police not to be discussed on Militia Estimates, 2799-2801 Motion that item be struck out, not in order, 2617
Questions not in order, 1653, 3056
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[Stage Direction]
Doherty, Right Hon. C. J.-Con.
Address-Con.
ance of Government, 196; authority derived from people and parliament; countries in which elections have been held, 197; Sir Wilfrid Laurier, 198; byelections, 199; requisitioning of ships; cattle embargo; merchant marine; the Gold Coast and Nigeria, 200; "deadly parallels"; reciprocity; election in England after South African War, 201; declaration of Prime Minister at Montreal, 202
Ambassador at Washington, 185. See also Canadian Representation Ames, Sir Herbert, resignation of, 1323 Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill, 2914-39 Judges under, 1085 Business of the House Adjournment, 1173 Closure,
Motion under Rule 17B-Govt, shipbuilding programme, 2076 Notice of, 2026
Estimates, Rule 17C, Thursdays and Fridays, 958, 3001 Interim supply, 2011 Morning sittings, prorogation, 4338 Order of, 1672 Supply, procedure, 1073 Justice Dept., 1073 By-elections Bill, 1310 Canada Evidence Act Amdt. Bill, 3318 Canada Temperance Act Amdt. Bill, 4061 Alberta Court of Appeal, decision, 4375 Constitutional question, 4375 Costs, 4378-81 Court cases pending, 4374 Gold Seal Company vs. Dominion Express Co., 4375-8
Pending litigation not to be affected Amdt. (Mr. A. K Maclean) 4384 Prohibition plebiscite, 3901 Public vs. private interests, 4374 Canada Temperance Act
Quebec, petition for suspension of Act, 3584, 4382
Canadian Bar Association, 1095 Canadian Nationals Definition Act, 397, 585, 644, 768
Declaration of alienage, 2031-2033 Canadian National Railways Special Committee
M. (Mr. A. K. Maclean) 1598 M. (Mr. .Meighen) 1766 "Champlain" steamer, 1980 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2835-72, 446789
Doherty, Right Hon. C. J.-Con.
Civil Service, Political patronage In, (Res.
Sir Sam Hughes) 809 Conservation Act Repeal Bill, 3146 Copyright Amdt. and Consolidation Bill, 350, 649, 2908, 3830-50 British Copyright Acts, 3833 Explanation of provisions, 3830 License to print, 3831 Phonographic discs, 3832 Royalty, 3831
Criminal Code Amdt. Bills, 3005, 3830, 38963901; 3906-38 Automobile theft, 3913 Defamatory libel, publication of judicial proceedings, 3934 Firearms, 3900-6
Juvenile deliquents, spanking, 3918 Senate amendments, 4256, 4343 Witness fees', 3937
Excessive or inadequate punishments, 1856 Exchequer Court Amdt. Bill, 563, 623 Extradition treaty, 3008, 3319, 3740, 3741 Hearst publications, 4171	[DOT]
Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters, 614 Judges
Exchequer Court, 1083 Judicial district of Quebec, 1081 Resignation of, 1093
Retirement and superannuation of, 1082 Vice-admiralty, 1084 Yukon, 1088
Judges Act, 1920, correspondence, 1851 Judges Act Amendment Bill, 1559, 1561, 3009
Free Conference with Senate, 3972, 4061, 4250
Retiring allowance, 1562 Judge Snider's report, 3905 Judicial districts, division of, 1083 Justice
Administration of Northwest, 1080 Yukon, 1087 Department
Litigated matters, 1089 Private secretaries, 1079 Purchasing agent, 1079, 1115 Salaries, 1076
Juvenile deliquents Act Amdt. Bill, 3319, 3758. See also under this head Criminal Code Amdt. Bill Law stamps, tax, 1090
League of Nations. See also under this title Address
Contribution to, 2362-9 Permanent Court of International Justice, 2096. See also that title under this head
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xliii
Dominion Election Act Amdt. Bill-Con.
Subjects and sections discussed: Administration of oaths, 3091 Advance polls, 3099 Amendment to writ, 3100 Certificate, 3100 Certified copy of list, 3094 Chief Electoral Officer, 4288-48 Consent of person nominated, 4246 Election officers, disqualification of, 4245 Foreign born wives and children of British subjects, 4229 Forms, 4227-40
Hours of polling-Amdt. (Mr. Fraser) 4245
Indexed copies of Act for election officers, 3094 Name added to list, 3092 Naturalization-certificate of qualification. Amdt. (Mr. Euler) 3103, 4249 New forms substituted, 3100 Nomination day, postponement of, 3094 Nomination paper, 4246 Oath of qualification, 4228-39 Oath of secrecy, 3095 " Personally naturalized ", 4244 Polling divisions, urban, 3091 Polls, holding of, 3095 Qualifications, 3096 Recount, application for, 3097 Returning officer's report, 3098 Revising officers, 3091, 3101, 4250 Smith, Mr. Alexander, 4228-40 Voting, if disqualified, 3098
Dominion Elections Act Chief Electoral Officer's reports, qu. 577; 731
Dominion Express Company. See Canada Temperance Act
Dominion Franchise Act, 361
Dominion Iron and Steel Company, 1710, 1723 Contract for ship plates, qu. 733, 1233. See also Shipbuilding
Dominion Lands, 1334 Aerial exploration and survey, 3778 Oil leases and, 1340. See also Oil Pre-emptions and purchased homesteads, qu. 2506
Reclamation, 4495
Dominion Lands Act Amdt. Bill (Appointments). lr., 3903; 2r., com., 4062; 3r., 4113
Dominion Lands and Parks, 1334, 1343, 4494 Antelope for parks, qu. 1134
Dominion Linens, Limited, 1398. See also Flax
Dominion Notes
And gold reserve, qu. 1234 Circulation of, qu. 1001 Securities, qu. 1383
Dominion Securities
Assignments of grain and produce, 1443
Dominion Shipbuilding Company, 1884, qu. 3423. See also Shipbuilding
Dominion Statistician
Census commissioners and enumerators, 801, 1232. See also Census
Dominion Textile Company, profits, 372
Donner, Mr. W. A., qu. 1624
Don Pacifico, case of, 1522
Dorchester Penitentiary. See Penitentiaries
Douglas, Mr., dismissal of from Militia, 2246, 2277
Douglas, Mr. J. C. (Cape Breton South and Richmond)
Canadian National Railways-rails, 1852 Fuel Supply Problem, 1270
Douglas, Mr. James M. (Strathcona)
Oil and Gas rentals, qu. 672 Unemployment and immigration, 1366 As Chairman
Member must show what bearing question has on estimates, 3078
Doukhobors, 1365
Dourine among range horses, 1050 Drainage. See Reclamation; Irrigation Draper, Mr. P. M., and Labour, 1632, 1637
Drayton, Hon. Sir Henry L. (Minister of
Finance)
Auditor General's Report, 737 Delay, 911-17 Fourth volume, 1385 British taxation of spirits, 3706 Budget
Date of, 738, 903, 1555, 2151 Speech, 3114. Luxury taxes, 3114; exports and imports (aggregate trade) 3115; trade with Great Britain, 3116; revenue and expenditure, 3116; liabilities, 3117; revenue and expenditure estimated, 1921-22, 3117; Grand Trunk acquisition, 3118; tariff changes, 3119; imports, marking of, 3120; Business profits war tax, 3120; excise taxes, 3120; sales tax, 3120; resolutions, 3121
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Drayton, Hon. Sir Henry-Con.
Business Profits War Tax, 2100, 3120 Canadian loans in New York, 3289 Canadian National Railways Directors, responsibility of, 1604 Special Committee, reference to M. (Mr. A. K. Maclean) 1602 M. (Mr. Meighen) 1762 Civil Service
Bonus, 2108-10, 4535 Superannuated officials, payments to, 4541
Coal prices, 3295 Combines, 3293
Comparative return on Dominion guaranteed and Nova Scotia bonds, 4165 Currency Act Arndt. Bill, 2160-2, 2269 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Dumping clause, 3815 Exchange, 4424 German
Agents of exporters, 4426 Competition, 3811-19, 4424 Labour, cost of, 4425 Mark, 3810, 4423 Policy, 4423 Reparation, 4423 New and unused goods, 3815 Roumanian loan, 3811 Unemployment, 3811 Valuation of currency, 3810, 4423 Customs Tariff Act, 1907, Arndt. Bill, 3698 Alcohol, 3705, 3725 Cocoa imports, 3704 Date of coming into force, 3724 Imported goods, marking of, 3711, 3714, 3719, 3722, 3938-54 Date of coming into force, 3724 Liquor, tax on, 3708 Medicated wines, 3709 Whiskey, 3706, 3707 Estimates, Committee on, 2202 Grand Trunk loan, 4165-6 Income tax, 2102, 2107 Exemptions, 3466 Forms, 1176 Penalties, 2100 Returns, 2625
Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill, 3905, 4251 Consolidation, 4353 Penalties, 4343
Self-assessment and payment, 4344-50 Provincial Ministers' salaries, and indemnities, 4352
Railwaymen's expenses while absent from home, 4353 Inland Revenue Act Amdt. Bill Alcohol, 3727, 3729, 3732 Distilled spirits, 3726
Drayton, Hon. Sir Henry-Con.
Inland Revenue Act Amdt. Bill-Con. Molasses, 3726 Patent medicines, 3728 Spirits, excise duty on, 3726 Insurance Act Amdt. Bill, 2625, 4339 Insurance Conference, 3088 Interim Supply, 1675,	1680,	1681,	2095,
Former votes, 1681 Necessity for voting, 2002 Notice, 1676 Payments due, 2025'
Montreal Harbour Commission Bill. 2159, 2268
Reciprocity agreement with the United States, Amdt. (Mr. Fielding) 2041 Reduction of drink consumption, 3705 Returns, inquiries for, 1176 Roumania, Canadian loan to, 3811 Interest on, 478, 1072 Repayment of, 3811 Russian currency, 1072 Sales tax, 3120, 3372
Senate Committee, attendance of Mr. Crerar, 3259
Special War Revenue Act. Amdt. Bill Alcohol, tax on, 3957	[DOT]
Amendments, 3742 Binder twine, 3751, 3756 Butter importations, 3749 Containers, 3754, 3956 Farmers, no tax on sales by, 3956 Fishing boats, 3745, 3751 (Houses, tax on, 3959 Lumber, tax on, 3743 Farmers exempt, 3744 Missals and prayerbooks, 3756 Mixed grains, 3744 Sales tax, 3735, 3752, 3754 Change in clause, 3957 Tailors, 3955 Sparkling wines, 3734 Spirits, 3742 Sugar, duty on, 3699 Supplementary estimates, 3741 Supply, partial, 2019 Tariff revision, 903
Taxation. See under this title Business Profits; Income; Special War Revenue Tobacco, duty on, 3698 United States tariff and Canadian duties, 4255
Whiskey, importation and taxation, 3706, 3707
Young Emergency Tariff, 3905 Drayton-Acworth report, 3042


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[Stage Direction]
Dredges and Dredging, 3982. See also Harbours and Rivers; Marine; St. Lawrence Channel Bale St. Paul district, 1992 Cape Tormentine, 1017 "Internationale," qu. 2192, qu. 2506 Inverness harbour, 3985 Maritime provinces, 3982 Ontario and Quebec, 3985 Quebec dredging fleet, 2605 St. Lawrence river, qu. 568. See also that title
Druggists. See also Customs Tariff; Inland Revenue Act Amdt.
Alcohol tax, and, 3727 Prescriptions, 3725
Drugs. See Customs and Excise; Customs Tariff; Health; Inland Revenue; Opium and Narcotic Drugs
'"Druid" steamer, repairs, 1980, 1984
Drury, Hon. E. C., and Drury Government,
96, 315, 335, 421, 3199, 4172-4221, 4301. See also Address; Budget; Highways; Lake of the Woods Patronage, 2876 Position on tariff, 421
Drydocks, 1690, 3987, 4017-36. See also Shipbuilding
Esquimalt, 3149, 3648 Expropriation of, 1698 Halifax, qu. 567
Montreal Dry Docks and Ship repairing, limited, qu. 2191
Prince Rupert Dry Dock Engineering Company, qu. 3423
Victoria, contract for, qu. 565
Duff, Mr. Justice, 1561
Duff, the late Hon. James, 1033
Duff, Mr. William (Lunenburg)
Air Board, 3782
Apple-growing in Lunenburg county, 1042 British Chamber of Shipping, 1716 Canadian citizens' war claims, qu. 1820 Canadian Government Merchant Marine, 1686
Assets and liabilities, 1920, 1701 Balance sheet for 1920, errors in, 1698 Business brokers, 1713 Depreciation in value of vessels, 1701 Dominion Iron and Steel Company, 1711 Hall Engineering Company, qu. 695 Insurance, 1703
Officers, and seamen, 4357-60 Operating account, 1717
Duff, Mr. William. -Con.
Canadian Govt. Merchant Marine-Con. Prime Minister and, 1708 Registering of ships at Halifax, 1720 Reported sale of ships, qu. 570 State-owned fleets in other countries, 1718 Vessels, qu. 1499
"Canadian Conqueror," qu. 1381 "Canadian Explorer," 1714 "Canadian Inventor," 1890 "Canadian Mariner," 1715 "Canadian Pioneer," 1689 "Canadian Recruit," qu. 575 Canadian National Railways and Montreal Locomotive Co., qu. 696 Canadian Northern . and Grand Trunk bonds, qu. 837
Cantley, Col. Thomas, qu. 1501 Civil Service Commission
Appointments, distribution of, 1045 Fruit inspectors, 1042
Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 2496-2502
Cold Storage, 1040 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Consular certificates, 4404 Invoice certificate, 3791, 4407 Fee-who pays? 4399, 4403 Proclamation, 4407 Trade agents, 3791-4, 4404 Drydocks Halifax, ques. 567 Expropriation of, 1698 Victoria, contract for, qu. 565 "Esperanto," wreck of, 4341 Fish and Fisheries
Canned and pickled, inspection of, 2182 Cold storage for, 1039 Drawback on from United States, qu. 600 Fish breeding establishments, 2188 Lunenburg overseers, 2179 Tax on fishing boats, 3745 French speech by Sir George Foster, translation, 1230
Fruit inspectors, 1041, 1047 Halifax-Newfoundland service, 1713 Highways, 4303
Johnston, Mr. Alexander, re-appointment, 644	.
Marine hospitals-Lunenburg, 3139 Montreal Drydock and Ship-repairing, Limited, qu. 2191 Natural resources, 881 "Niobe" and "Rainbow," qu. 871 Prince Rupert
Public building, qu. 567 Purchase of land from Mr. V. W. Smith, qu. 963
Railway Department, salaries, 1671
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Duff, Mr. William-Con.
Railways, auditors, 1661 Returned Soldiers Insurance Act Amdt. Bill, 4355-60
Shipbuilding, 1710, 1867, 1932 Advances at Victoria, qu. 599 Contractors' percentage, 1902 Contracts, 1689 Depreciation, 1886
Dominion Steel Company and Government, 1691 Exchange, 1894 Interest, 1869, 1886 Operating costs and wages, 1933 Opposition to policy by newspapers, 1892 Point of order, 1898 Programme, 2091 Trade routes, opening of, 1888 Sick mariners, 3129, 3139 Steel plates for ships, qu. 1233 Steel ships, contracts for, qu. 565 Trade and Commerce estimates, 1231
Duguid, Mr., naval architect, 1280
Dumping Act. See Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Du Tremblay, Mr. P. R. (Laurier-Outre-mont)
Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Billl, 2921-7 Budget, 3191. Tariff revision, 3191; congratulations to Minister upon moderate changes, 3192; public debt, 3192; golden era of Liberal party, 3193; get rid of railroads, 3193; merchant marine, 3194; military and naval expenditures, 3194; Civil Service, 3194; war indemnity. 3195
German reparation, Canada's claim, qu. 643
Loan to shipyards, 1883 " Niobe " and " Rainbow ", sale, 4032 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3881 Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Arndt. Bill, 2266-8, 2903
Tobacco, duty on, 3698,
Easter Adjournment. See House of Commons, Adjournments East Elgin, 1293. See also Address Eastern Car Company, Limited, 1611 Ebert, Mr. Justice, report of, qu. 4254 Economic Development Commission, 869 Editorial Committee, 4557. See also Printing Bureau
Printing of Civil Service list, qu. 1349 Statement, 4551 Edmonton
Deputy postmaster, 827 District Engineer's office, 4535-43
Edmundston
Bridge, 2810 Post office, qu. 3422
Educational Statistics, 1231
Edwards, Mr. J. W. (Prontenac)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 126; congratulations to Prime Minister; the tariff on apples, 126; speech of the leader of the Opposition; right of the Government to hold office; resignation of Ministers or defection of supporters no reason for dissolution, 127; Liberal party a thing of shreds and patches, 128; by-elections, 128; leader of the Opposition a usurper; issue of the 1917 election, 129; right of Parliament to deal with tariff; the soldier vote, 130; analysis of civil and soldier vote in Ontario and Quebec, 131; the amendment not specific, 131, 136; record of Liberal party on the tariff, 132; Government defeat would mean accession to power of leader of the Opposition, 133; province of Quebec, 134; record of the Government, finances, debt, expenditure, agricultural and industrial production, loans, savings, 135, 136 Agricultural shows, 1239, 1241 Budget, 3175. Liberals and free trade, 3175; Ministers of the Crown and business enterprises, 3176; German' goods, 3177; public debt, 3177; other budgets, 3178; budget of 1919, 3178; tariff reductions on agricultural implements-3179; Progressive party, attitude of, 3179; Mr. Crerar and Grain Growers Company, 3180; Prime Minister on tariff, 3182; member for Red Deer and free trade, 3182; Liberals and tariff reduction, 3183; fiscal policy of Great Britain, 3185; agriculture in Great Britain, 3185; pig iron industry, 3188; Ontario, progress in, 3188; United States, progress in farming, 3188 Business of the House Wednesday evening adjournment, 1840 Butter and cheese, imports and exports, 3852, 4438. See also under this title, Oleomargarine Cattle embargo, 715 Chief Justice, salary of, 1562 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2874, 4286 Air Force, preference, 4483 Holidays, religious, 4490 Returned soldiers, preference, 4483 Civil Service (res. Sir Sam Hughes), political patronage in; Judicial appointments; Halifax programme; Lib-


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[Stage Direction]
xlvii
Edwards, Mr. J. W.-Con.
Civil Servioe-Con.
eral platforms, 1893 and 1919; census enumerators, 813; Civil Service Commission; an illogical and undemocratic system, 814; outside service; inside service, 815
Civil Service Retirement Act Arndt. Bill, 4274-6
Collins' Bay, wreck, 1989 Dairy Products Grading Bill, 4438-46 Debates, translation of French speeches, 700
De Martigny divorce, 4203 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 680 ^Health of Animals-glanders in Frontenac, 926
Hearst publications, 4170 Highway construction in Ontario, 4290-4303 Interim supply, 2008, 2020 Judges Act Amendment, 1560 Judicial appointments, 813 Kingston, bridges and wharves, 3974 Langlois, Mr. George Arnoult, appointment, qu. 2505
Lightkeepers' salaries1, 1995 Main Ducks life-saving station, 1991 Maisonneuve and GaspS, representation, 1302, 2247, 2310-2339 Militia
Annual drill, 2295 Military expenditures, 2792 Ministers to sit in either Chamber, 1171 Oleomargarine Act Arndt. Bill, 3852-88 Opium and Narcotic Drugs Act Amdt. Bill, 2904
Polish battalion for service in French army, 4061
Privilege, Maisonneuve-GaspS representation, 2247
Proportional representation, 1537 Reciprocity agreement with United States, 2048
Representation in Parliament, 1316 Royal Military College, 2803 Shipbuilding, 1953
Soldiers Pensions, Insurance and Re-establishment, 4054-61
Eggs, 1122
Chinese, importation of, qu. 568, 3751 Export and marketing of, 1122 Production, 3190, 3473
Egypt, shipment of railroad ties to, 1725
Elections. See also By-elections; Canadian Nationals; Controverted Elections; Corrupt Practices; Dominion Elections; Proportional Representation; Representation in Parliament
Elections-Con.
Foreign agitators at, qu, 903 General, necessity for. Sec Address; Budget; Representation in Parliament Officers' fees, 188
Tamaska, arrangements for, 4534. See also Yamaska
York-Sunbury. See that title
Elective Senate. See Ministers
Electoral System. See Proportional Representation
Electric Power. See Fuel Supply; Great-Lakes and St. Lawrence; Lake of the Woods, Water Powers
Elevators, 1442. See also Canada Grain Act; Canadian Wheat Board; Grain and Grain Trade; Terminal Elevators
Eleven O'Clock Adjournment. See House of Commons
Elkin, Mr. S. E. (St. John City and Counties of St. John and Albert)
De Martigny divorce, 3764
St. John and Quebec Railway Bill, 2156
Shipbuilding, 1888
Sick mariners benefit fund, 4039
Embargo on Cattle. See Cattle
Empire Cabinet, proposed, 1385. See also Prime Ministers' Conference
Empire Insurance Company. See North
American Insurance
Empire Parliamentary Association. See also Speaker's Chair
Address by Sir Herbert Ames, 1311
England. See also Great Britain Linen manufacturers, 1390 Railway situation in, 1008
English River. See Lake of the Woods
Entomology, 1024. See also Destructive Insects
Epiphany, 2626. See also Civil Service, Religious holidays
Esmonde, Mr. Osmonde Grattan, 1556
" Esperanto", wreck of, 4341
Esquimalt
Dockyard, 4017-36 Drydock, 3149, 3648, 3651 Naval College, 4010-16
Essences, tax on, 3709
Estimates. See also Deputy Speaker; House of Commons; Interim Supply; Speaker; Supply. For departments, see their titles
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Estimates-Con.
Closure. See that title Consent of House necessary, 1073 Consideration after midnight, 2736-75 Current necessities-Redlich, 1675 Discussion of, opportunity for, 1026. See also Labour Dept.; Ministers; Post Office Dept
Form of voting objected to, 1674 (Holding up of, 1941. See also Shipbuilding Lengthy debate, 1832 Main (1921-22) tabled, 644 Notice of amendment in Com., 4168 Obstruction in. See Shipbuilding One-sixth of amount, 1674 See also Interim Supply
Passing of without information, 1616 Procedure in, 1676 Railways, deferring of, 1652 Right of Opposition to attack items, 1678 Scrutiny of by Special Committee, 484, 1503. M. (Mr. Lemieux) 2193 Statutory payments, 1414 Supplementary, tabled, 3901, 4170, 4453 Inquiry as to, 3741, 4070 Thursdays and Fridays, Rule 17C. See House of Commons Unreliability of figures, 1203-4 Voting en bloc, 2006, 2012 Voting, method of, 4538, 4540
Ethier, Mr. J. A. C. (Laval-Two Mountains) Berry Boxes, 4106, 4114-16 Canada Temperance Act, 4383 Central Railway Company of Canada, 3715, 3716
Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 4277
Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4278-85 Classification and reorganization, 4465 Dorchester penitentiary, appointments at, 4467
Exemption of certain classes from jurisdiction of Commission, 4460-83 Returned soldiers, preference, 4358, 4483 Special Committee, evidence, 4461 Civil Service Bonus, qu. 1350
Number of civil servants, names, and classification, 4255 Daylight saving, qu. 1817 De Martigny divorce, 3766-8 Griffenhagen and Associates, qu. 1821 Highways

Montreal-Hull, 4306 Inspection and Sale Act Amdt.-Berry Boxes, 4106, 4114-16 Venlot correspondence, 3719
Ethyl Alcohol, 3705. See also Inland Revenue
Euler, Mr. William D. (North Waterloo)
Air Board, 3777-85 Bounties, principle of granting, 1423 Budget, 3569. Business profits tax and sales tax, 3570; economy in expenditure necessary, 3570; income tax, 3570; methods of raising revenue, 3571; national railways, 3572; Mr. Fielding's amendment, 3573; Prime Minister's remarks on Budget, 3574 Canadian Nationals, 647, 770 Canadian National Railways Independent auditor, qu. 1133 Canadian Press, Limited, 4533 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4280-5, 4469-82
"Nor in the public interest," amdt., 4283 Returned soldiers, 4258 Civil Service Bonus, 2110-15, 3531 Coal consumption, 1258 Convicts, increase in number, 1091 Copyright Amdt. and Consolidation Bill, 3844-6
Customs Tariff, 1907, Amdt. Bill-imported goods, marking, 3953
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (prohibition plebiscite), 259 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4227-49 Foreign-born wives and children of British subjects, 3103, 3113, 4209. See also Naturalization Forms, 4227-46
Naturalization-certificate of qualification, 4229
Amdt. in Com., 3103, 4227; neg. 4342 Amdt. to 3r., 4249 " Personally naturalized ", 4244 Fuel Supply Problem, 1263 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2461-3 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 694 Highways, 3028
House of Commons Chamber, temperature of, 1071
Hudson Bay Railway, 979, 988 Illustration stations in Ontario, 950 Immigration, 2574-92 Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill, 4344 Income Tax returns, 2567, 2625 Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, 4549 Kingston penitentiary, 1097, 1107 Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4175 League of Nations-labour. 4547 Linen yarn factories, 1397 Ministers to sit in either Chamber, 1161 " Niobe " and " Rainbow ", sale, 4025 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3870 Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Amdt., 2267 Royal Canadian Mounted Police, 2483-4 Royal Military College, 2802


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[Stage Direction]
xlix
Euler, Mr. William D.-Con.
St. John and Quebec Railway Bill, 2154 Shipbuilding, assistance to, qu. 603 Smith, Mr. Sydney, qu. 1236 Suggested resignation of Opposition, 223.
See also Stevens, Mr. H. S.
Surplus war supplies, disposal of, qu. 736 Trent canal, 2613-15, 2989 Welland canal, construction. 2988-96; amdt. 2989
European Corn Borer. See Corn Borer
European Credits, 3160. See also Belgium; Greece; Loans; Roumania
Excessive or Inadequate Punishments. See
Criminal Code Amdt. Bill
Exemptions. See Taxation
Exchange, rate of, 96, 267, 316, 416, 545, 3087, 3160, 3167, 3264, 3571, 3599. See also Customs and Excise; Finance; Loans Comparative return on Dominion guaranteed and Nova Scotia bonds, 4165 German mark, 3810-19
Money-purchasing power and exchange value, 4427 Shipbuilding, 1894 Tariff rates on foreign goods, 4421 Trade with Russia, 1003 Valuation for duty, qu. 733 Valuation of currency, 3786-3818 Valuation of the pound and dollar, qu. 577
[Stage Direction]
Exchequer Court Act Amdt. Bill
lr., 563; m. for 2r., 623; com., 625; 3r., 644 Subjects and sections discussed:
Appeals, 623
Commissioner of Patents, 623 General rules and orders, 258 Judges, 1083
Excise. Sec Customs and Excise; Inland Revenue; Special War Revenue
Exhibitions, 1123. See also Agricultural Shows; County Fairs; Live stock; Trade
Film productions, 1558 Seed fairs, 1126
Exhibition Train, 1557-8
Exhibits Branch, 1466
Expeditionary Force. See Canadian Expeditionary Force
Expenditure in Departments. See Ministers
Experimental Farms, 922, 928, 931, 932-36, 945, 1949, 4215. See also Agriculture; Live Stock
American implements at, qu. 492 Charlevoix-Montmorency, 945 Distribution of, 1076 Dorchester county, 946	,
Fredericton, qu. 1131
Hours and pay, 932
L'Assomption, 918
Nappan, Gureney cattle, qu. 2686
Ontario, 948
Rimouski, 954
Ste. Anne de la PocatiOre, 948 Seed inspection, 1125 Wright county, 922
Explosives, 2162
Exports. See also Address; Budget; Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; Trade Canadian, for last year, 3483 Canadian Government Merchant Marine, by. 1276-7 Freight rates, 1224
Export Trade, Expansion of. See Shipbuilding; Trade
Express Companies, 3469 Express Rates, 169
External Affairs
Conservation Commission, 3960 Department, creation of, 2S88 Estimates, 2437
Legal adviser, opinion as to correspondence re. Canadian Representation in the United States, 2406, 2428 Passport office, 2436 Report of Secretary of State for, 397
Extradition Convention with the United States, Bill
lr., 3319; withdrawn, 3741
Extradition Treaty with the United States
(Wife desertion.) See also Extradition Convention Copies tabled, 3207 Inquiry, 3008, 3740
Fabian Pamphlets, 1034
Fafard, Mr. J. Fernand (L'lslet)
Algernon Rock pier, qu. 1383
Bonus to lightkeepers, qu. 1622
County fairs, 1123
Fruit inspection, 1043
St. John harbour, qu. 1383
Upper Crossing St. Roch light, qu. 1383
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INDEX-1921 If
[Stage Direction]
Fielding, Hon. W. S.-Con.
Canada Temperance Act Amdt. Bill Cases pending, 3902, 4373-6 Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 1557, 2254-63
Canadian Government bonds, qu. 1620 Canadian Nationals Definition Act, 647, 768, 2033
Canadian National Railways Board of Directors, 1653 Correspondence with directors, 1003 Fire claims-Shelburne County, 4;569 Halifax and Southwestern line, 3052 Extension to Lockeport, 3054, 4323 Station accommodation, 4327 '	Management [DOT]- Information,	M. (Mr. King) 1184
Special Committee, reference to M. (Mr. A. K. Maclean) 1606 M. (Mr. Meighen) 1764, 1846 Amdt. (Mr. King) 1794 Canadian Representation in the United States, 2391-2436 Cattle embargo, 713, 729, 762 Chief Justice, income tax, and, 1566 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2780, 3901 Religious holidays, 4491 Returned Soldiers, 4259 Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 2489-90, 4268-78
Civil Service, political patronage, Res.
(Sir Sam Hughes) 807 Clark's Harbour, public building, 2817 Conservation Act Amdt. Bill, 3959-71 Copyright Amdt. and Consolidation Bill, 3834-48
Currency Act, 1910, Amdt. Bill, 2161 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Brokers' fee, 4432 Cost of production, 4411-14 Dick Turpin, 4421 Dumping clause, 3816, 4412 Exchange-tariff rates on foreign goods, 4421
German trade, 3813 Invoice certificate, 3801 Fee-who pays? 3801-3, 4389 New or unused goods, 3813 Tariff, increase, 3813 Third reading; undue haste, 4449 Trade agents, 3800-13, 4389 Valuation for duty, 4411 Valuation of currency, 3813, 4420 Customs Tariff, 1907, Amdt. Bill, imported goods-marking, 3712, 3714, 3722, 3953 Dairy Products Grading Bill)-undue haste, 4449
Fielding, Hon. W. S.-Con.
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (Prohibition plebiscite) 243 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 2944 Revising officers, 3092, 3101 Dominion Lands Act Amdt. Bill, 4063-5 Dredging, 3984 Election petitions, 3934 Entomology Bureau, 1025 Estimates
Expenditures not appearing in, 1423 Statutory, 1417-18
Thursdays and Fridays, Rule 17C, 1676 Voting of fixed sums, 1417-18 Extradition Treaty, 2687, 3008, 3740, 3741 French Trade Agreement, 1351, 1558, 212741, 2152
Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2376. 244880, 2777
Harbours and Rivers Estimates, 3976-82
Nova Scotia, 3990	.
Highways, 1664, 3023
Hudson Bay Railway, M. involving expenditure, 982
Imports, regulations, 3709 Income tax, Chief Justice, and, 1566 Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill, 4344-52 Intercolonial Railway-land at LOvis, 1846 Interim Supply. See also under this title, Estimates; Supply Motion out of order, 2009 Procedure, 1677, 2012 Resolution should have schedule, 2015 Unanimous consent required, 2002 Urgency of, 2003
Judges' Act Amdt, Bill, 2118, 3010
Judges as revising officers, 3092-3101 King's birthday, 4450
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4224-6 League of Nations, Assembly, request for papers, 188
Lighthouse signal service, 4040 Lobster season, 2188 Loekeport-Froude's Point service, 1496 Lockeport railway extension, 3054, 4323 Luxury taxes, abolition, 1185 Maeallum, Dr., 1432 Manufacturers and protection, 3660 Migratory Birds Convention Act Amdt. Bill, 2891, 4496
Montreal Harbour Commission Bill, 2159 National Catholic Labour Unions, 1649 National Research Institute, 1432, 2701-07, 2893-6. Sec also Research National resources-transfer to Western Provinces, 2549
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Fielding, Hon. W. S.-Con.
" Niobe " and "Rainbow", sale, 4011 Nova Scotia harbours and icebreakers, 1994
Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3531, 386390, 3906
Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Amdt. Bill, 2898-2903
Ottawa Improvement Commission Act Amdt. Bill, 2941 Parliament Buildings, 3992-8 Pensions to pilots, 2000 Pensions, widowed mothers, 638 Pensions Act Amdt., Bill, 4365-73 Permanent Court of International Justice, 2097
Polish battalion for service in French army, 4061
Prime Ministers' Conference, 2637-8 Privileges and Elections Committee, 2373 Protection and, references to former speeches, 3332
Public Accounts Committee, information, 1805
Public Works Engineering Branch, 4083-4 Railtway Commission, 3019, 3022 Railway estimates, deferring of, 1652 Reciprocity agreement with the United States, Amdt. to Supply, 2038 Representation in Parliament, 1318 Research Council, 1432. See also under this title National Research Institute Returned Soldiers, 4365 Returned Soldiers Insurance Act Amdt. Bill, 4261
Right of Dominion to tax provinces, 3742 Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act Amdt. Bill, 2482
St. John and Quebec Railway Bill, 2155-6 St. John harbour, 4079
Soldiers pensions, insurance and re-establishment, 4061
Special War Revenue Act Amdt. Bill Alcohol, 3705, 3730, 3727, 3732 Fishing boats, 3737, 3745 Patent medicines, 3728 Sales tax, 3754 Spirituous liquors, 3711 Sugar, duty on, 3699
Supply. See also, under this title, Estimates, Interim Supply Amendments, non-confidence, 1184 Comprehensive items, 3015 Motions in, 1683 Tariff revision, 3749 Taxation, right of, 3706, 3742 Trade agents in United States, 1476 Trade with United States, 1468 Unemployment, 4549
Fielding, Hon. W. S.-Con.
Vacancies, 1324
Victoria Day, 3697
Vote on capital account, 1464
West Indies importations, 3704
West Indies steamship service, 1488
Westport signal service, 1998
Women workers, 4547
Fiji Islands, trade with, 1465 Catellier, Mr. Ludger, 1465
Films, Educational. See Trade and Commerce; Exhibitions
Finance. See also Address; Banks; Bonds; Brussels International Financial Conference; Budget; Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Canadian National Railways; Currency Act Amdt. Bill; Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; Exchange; Grand Trunk; Housing; Loans; Taxation
Accounts with Great Britain, qu. 2191; qu. 2622'
Canadian currency discount, 3115 Canadian dollar, value in United States, 3087
Canadian Government bonds, 3289 Chartered banks, taxes paid by, qu. 2192 Credits, 3160. See also Loans
Roumania and Greece, to, qu. 1236. See also Roumania Department
Purchasing Commission, and, 1102 Deposits outside Canada in Canadian banks, qu. 1623 Dominion Notes
Circulation, qu. 1001 Gold reserve, and, ques. 1234 Issues, qu. 2621 Securities, qu. 1383 Expenditure' accounts, qu. 2621 Expenditure and debt per capita, 2013 Expenditure, revenue and debt, qu. 2099 Foreign monetary standards and Customs, qu. 1133. See also Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Government bonds, purchase of, qu. 1620 Investments, "other" and "non-active," qu.
2691	*
Minister
Miscellaneous estimates, passing of, 1116 Public debt-non-active, miscellaneous and banking accounts, qu. 2621 Repayment of, $25,000,000 loan, qu. 2622 Revenue accounts; qu. 2620 Revenue, expenditure and debt, qu. 2099 Victory bonds, 1920 Expenses, qu. 1620


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INDEX-1921
[Stage Direction]
Firearms, possession of. See Criminal Code Amdt. Bills
Fire Insurance, 3469
Fiscal Policy of Government. See Address; Budget; Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; Tariff
Fiset, Dr. Michel, qu. 963, 4523
Fish and Fisheries
Biological Board, 2189 Breeding establishments, 2185, 4036 Saskatchewan, in, 2185 British Columbia, 882, 890 Conservation Commission, 3965-9 Cowan, Mr. G. H., K.C., legal expenses, 2187 Development of, 856, 861 East Coast Fisheries drawback, qu. 600 Ebert, Mr. Justice, report, qu. 4254 Fish bait, 1038 Fish consumption, 1038 Gulf, Gaspg and Magdalen Islands, 877 Halibut industry in British Columbia, 883 Halifax award, qu. 2191 Inspection, 2182
International Fisheries Commission, Fraser River, 2189
Jurisdiction of Dominion and Provinces, 2104
Lobster hatcheries, 2188, 4036
Net fishing in Missisquoi Bay, qu. 570
Officers and guardians, 2177
Oyster culture, 2177
Patrol service, 2177
Problems, scientific investigation, 2188
Protection service, 4036
Quebec fisheries reference, 4040
Refrigerator cars, 1038
Salmon licenses, 2104, 4341. See also Privy Council
Quebec, qu. 1381, qu, 2506 Transportation of fish, 883, 877 Gasp§, 962
Fishing Boats, exemption of material, 3737. See also Special War Revenue Act Amdt. Bill
Flavelle, Sir Joseph, 4142, 4314. See also . Canadian National Railways
Flax. See also Bounties; Linen Yarn Bounty, 1389 Decline in prices, 1389 Growers, Convention, 1391 Industry, experimental work, 931-2 Patent process of retting, 4455
Fleming, Sir Sanford, 3046
Florence & Son. See Printing Bureau, Destruction of Documents
Flour. See also Wheat Moisture in, 1446 Penitentiaries for, 1107 Price of, 1448
Flour Bags, tax on. 3754. See also Special War Revenue Act Amdt. Bill
Flynn, Mr. Harry, 217
Fontaine, Mr. J. E. (Hull)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 210; congratulations to new Prime Minister, 210; change in name of Unionist party; the tariff; neglect of agriculture; the working classes; consumer finally pays the taxes; the cost of living, 211; Georgian Bay Canal; national debt, expenditure; old age pensions and unemployment; insurance; province of Quebec, 212 Alcohol, tax on, 3725, 3728, 3732 Georgian Bay Canal, 745 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 745 Hull-Wakefield road, 3033 National Catholic Labour Unions, 1646 Patent medicines, 3728 Shipbuilding, 1941
Food Adulteration of. See Health Maple Products, 887. See also that title
Foodstuffs, 3589, 3734 Hoarding of, qu. 1347
Tax on, 3546. See also Special War Revenue Act Amdt. Bill
Foran, Mr. William.. See Civil Service
Ford Motor Company, 3409
Fordney Bill. See Budget; Tariff; United States
Foreign Agitators and Elections, 903
Foreign-Born Wives and Children of British
Subjects. See Dominion Elections Act Amdt.
Foreign Business. See Trade
Foreign Currency Inflation. See Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Foreign Decorations to Canadians, qu. 1132
Foreign Imports, value, 3310
Foreign Loans. See Greece; Loans; Rou-mania
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Foreign Manufacture. See Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; Customs Tariff, imported goods-marking
Foreign Monetary Standards and Customs, qu. 1133. See also Customs and Excise Dept. Bill, Valuation of Currency
Foreign Shipments, Invoice Certificate. See Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Foreign Tariffs Division, 1437
Forest Reserves
Porcupine, 538 Winter grazing, 383
Forestry. See also Natural Resources; Research
Aerial patrol and survey, 3776, 4495 Bud worm, 1031
Canadian Forestry Association, 4494 Conservation Commission, 3960-9 Director of, 1346
National Transcontinental Railway, forest protection, 4335
Protection of forests, 870, 4335, 4494 Spruce forests-bud worn, 1031
Forfeitures and Penalties. See Inland
Revenue
Forman, Mr. H., 1672
Fortier, Mr. H. A. (Labelle)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 169. Amendment - duty of Government to hold election; the Agrarian movement; West Peterborough; attitude of Quebec; National Liberal Conservative Association in no sense national, 170; change of electoral map will not change sentiments of the people; western representation;
*	unconstitutionality, tyranny and despotism, 171 Air Board, 3785
Bankruptcy Act Arndt. Bill, 2912-34 Budget, 3417. Deplorable condition of finances, 3418; military expenditures, 3418; national debt, 3420; tariff revision, 3420
Canadian Bar Association, 1094 Canadian Wheat Board, 2116-17 Civil Service bonus, 2112 French, Bill not printed in, 1095 Highways projected in Quebec, 3025, 3029 Judges-reorganization of districts, 1083 National Research Institute, 2897 Oleomargarine Act Arndt. Bill, 3876	,
Railway Commission, French secretary. 3018
Fortier, Mr. H. A.-Con.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act Arndt. Bill, 2486 Shipbuilding, 1946
Fort Cumberland and Fort Moncton, care of, 4540
Fort Frances Post Office site, qu. 1233
Fort Garry Hotel, Winnipeg, qu. 1348
Fort Lennox, Isle-aux-Noix, sundial, qu. 2097
Fort Smith Railway Company. See Private Bills Discussed
Fort William
Harbour improvements, 4536 Terminals, 3050
Fortifications of the City of Quebec. See Quebec
Fortin, Abb,e. Sec Labour, National Catholic Labour Unions
Foster, Mr. A. De Witt, 90, 3509
Foster, Right Hon. Sir George E. (Minister of Trade and Commerce)
Address in reply to Governor Generali's Speech, 46; the tariff; First Assembly of the League of Nations; work and purpose of League, 47; development of national life; enlarged ideals and sympathies; the problem of world peace, 48; Covenant of League of Nations and Treaty of Versailles; Peace Treaty signed by 47 nations; the United States; duties and obligations of League; its organization; the Council, 49; respective jurisdictions of Assembly and Council, 50; the Secretariat, reduction of armaments and arbitration of differences; registration of Treaties; mandatories, 51; social and economic reforms; technical organizations; meeting of assembly in Geneva, 52; election of permanent president; rules of procedure; official languages, 53; spirit of courtesy; the smaller nations, 54; publicity of proceedings; financing of the League, 55; Article X; Permanent Court of International Justice, 56 Auditor General's Report, delay, 915 Bounties, 1386
Flax and linen yarn, 1389, 1393, 1394 Brunelle, Sergt. Major N., 1519 Budget, 3156. Income tax, 3156. Brussels Conference, 3157; League of Nations, 3157; debt, increase in, 3158; tariff revision, 3159; exchange and credits


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INDEX-1921 lv
[Stage Direction]
Foster, Right Hon. Sir George E.-Con.
Budget-Con.
system, 3160; Toung Emergency Bill, 3160; protection, 3161 Business of the House
Announcement of for to-morrow, 1026 Legislation pending, 4068 Progress in, 1230 Butter and cheese exports, 1470 Canada Grain Act, administration, 1442 Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 1657, 2191, 2251-62, 3703. See also West Indies steamship service Canada Year Book, 1231, 1425 Canadian Engineering Standards Association, 1426
Canadian National Railways
Management - Information, M. (Mr. King) 1207 Cattle embargo, 711
Census commissioners and enumerators, 597, 696, 735, 806, 1209, 1226, 2098, 3260, 2843, 2874, 3807 Missisquoi, 1132, 4113 Moncton, 3972 Pontiac, 1127, 1231 Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill, 2842-74'
Civil Service Bonus, 1463
Griffenhagen and Associates, 1555, 4555 Reorganization, 4555-6 Civil Service, Political Patronage, Res.
(Sir Sam Hughes) 802-3 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Invoice certificate, 3791-3809
Pee-who pays? 3792-9, 3804, 4389-95 Form of, 3799 Imports and exports, 4398 Proclamation of Act, 4394; Amdt. 4407 Revenue and expenditure, 4399 Trade agents, 3791-3809 Certificate of, 4389-94 Trade commissioners, 4394 Trade, extension of, 4394-8 Debates, translation of French speeches, 701
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (Prohibition plebiscite) 307 Dominion Lands Act Amdt. Bill, 4062-6 Editorial Committee, 4559 Estimates
Committee on, 2206-8 Procedure, 1385 Statutory payments, 1414 Exhibitions, 1466
Canadian goods, 1227 Flax bounty, 1403. See also under this title Bounties
Fox breeding, 1429
French Trade Agreement, 1174, 1573, 1557, 2125-41, 2152
Foster, Right Hon. Sir George E.-Con. French Trade Agreement-Con.
Printing, 1380
Fruit, co-operative effort, 1470 Grain Act, administration, 1442 Grain
As security for Dominion notes, 1443 Chemistry-Dr. Birchard, 1228 Elevators, 1442 Grading, 1230
Inquiry, remuneration of Commission-. ers, 3972
Griffenhagen and Associates. See under this title Civil Service.
Hides, inspection, 1437
Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill, 4345-51
Industry
Encouragement of, 1469 Government aid to, 1397 Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 351, 607, 2944
International Customs Tariff Bureau, 1437 International Trade Conference, 2151 Judge Snider's Report, 3761, 4062 Labour-Mr. Lapointe, 3584 League of Nations, 47, 2356-73 Macallum, Dr., 1433
Motion picture films and exhibits, 1232, 1466
National Research Institute, 2688, 2708, 2892-7. See also Research Newfoundland railways, 1485 Patent Act Amdt. Bill, 4453-60 Patents of Invention Act Consolidation Bill, 303, 2890-1 Pensions Act Amdt. Bill, 4368 Petroleum bounties, 1413 Prime Ministers' Conference, 2662 Printing Bureau, destruction of documents, 4559
Publications, printing, 1438 Research, industrial and scientific, 1426 Research Council Act Amdt. Bill, 2566; 2688, 2892. See also under this title, National Institute
Returned Soldiers1 Insurance Act Amdt. Bill, 4355
Searls, Mr. George, Chief Grain Inspector, 1444
Shipbuilding, 1938, 1972 Statistical Department, 1231 Statistics Act Amdt. Bill, 3007 Statutory expenditure, 1420 Steamship Services Australia-New Zealand, 1493 Murray Bay-Tadoussac, 1826 West Indies, 1488, 1491
See also under this title Trade Terminal elevators, 1463, 1464, 1442 Timber culling, 1426
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Foster, Right Hon. Sir George E.-Con. Trade
Australia, 1468 Russia, 1003, 1072 South Africa, 1491
United States, 1219, 1468, 1475. See also Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Trade and 'Commerce Department
Director of Commercial Exhibits, 1226 Educational films, 1225, 1466, 1558 Patent and Copyright Branch, 1496 Salaries, 1218 Tariffs division, 1226 Weights and Measures, 1485 Trade Commissioners, 1219, 1224, 1391, 1464, 1479. See also under this title Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Trade Mark and Design Act Arndt. Bill, 229; 2891
War Indemnity-Canada's share, 3583 West Indies Cable, 1438
Steamship service, 1488, 3 491 Trade agreement. Sec under this title Canada-West Indies
York-Sunbury, French-Canadian Minister, 4638
Foundation Company of Montreal, payment to, qu. 4541
Fournier, Mr. C. A. (Bellechasse)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 203; speech from the Throne a "negligible document"; Government incapable of dealing with pressing issues; unemployment and soup kitchens; 203; League of Nations an ideal distant and unattainable; disarmament, 204; Administration's arguments for retaining office; inconsistency of Minister of Immigration; issue not the tariff but vindication of constitutional rights; 205; no general election held on last redistribution; crime of the junkers, fire-eaters and reactionaries; assault on national unity, 206 Agricultural expenditures, 1029 Bankruptcy Act Arndt. Bill, 2910 Canadian National Railways Special Committee, reference to, M. (Mr. Meighen.) 1799
Civil Service, Political Patronage, 836 .Highways in Quebec, 3030 Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Arndt. Bill. 2266
Parliament buildings, expenditure, qu. 4341 St. Michel wharf, Res. 967, 3991 Weekly bulletins, 1231
Fox Bay, squatters, 1514 Fox-Breeding, grant for, 1428 France
Amount of credit to, qu. 2622 Ministers, appointment of, 1154 Senate in, 1165
State-ow'ned fleet sold by, 1718
Treaty with. See French Trade Agreement
Franchise. See also Canadian Nationals; Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill; Naturalization; Proportional Representation
Franco-Canadian Commercial Agreement.
See French Trade Agreement
Fraser, Mr. Evan E. (Welland)
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill
Hours of polling in municipalities near international boundary, amdt. 4245 Returned Soldiers, employment on Welland Canal, 3001
Fraser, Mr. Roy, 2860-8 Fraser River
International Commission, 2189 Snag boat, 3978
Fredericton Experimental Farm, qu. 1131
Free Trade, 4419. See Address; Budget
Freight Rates, 214, 484, 3474. See also Railways; Transportation; Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Canadian National Railways Discrimination in, 1232 Increase in, 341, 389, 538, 3263 Ocean, 1734, 1946 Pulpwood and saw logs, 2511
Freight Ships. See Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Shipbuilding
French Canadians, 3594 Appointments to office, 355, 510 League of Nations, representation on, 552 United States in, 1483, 3675
French Language, 3824, 3972, 4543 Address not moved or seconded in, 138, 223, 280, 385, 539.
Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill, French Version. See that title Bill not printed in, 649, 1095 Board of Trade reports, forms, 2819, 332075
Canadian National Railways
Conductors,, waiters, printing, 1782, 432933
In Quebec and New Brunswick, 4328


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INDEX-1921
[Stage Direction]
lvii
French Language-Con.
Debates, Official Report of, translation ot French speeches M. (Mr. Areham-hault) 698; agreed to, 702 Election proclamation, 553 Estimates, printing and discussion in, 1386 Fuel Supply, Special Committee, evidence, 4251
Income tax instructions, 2626	.
Interior Dept, publications, 1333 Parliament buildings Inscriptions
Central column, qu. 568 Tower, 3995-8, 4543 Pensions, application forms, qu. 965 Questions to immigrants, 779, 3824 Use of in debate, 539 French Parliament. See Ministers French Purchasing Commission, 3172 Letter of Minister of Customs to, 3079
French Trade Agreement
Copy of
M. for, 578, 607, 766, 2193 Tabled, 1271
. Inquiry as to date of, 1174 Printed copies, 1351, 1380 Terms and signature, 1185 French Trade Agreement Bill
Res. 1557; lr., 1573; 2r., com., 2125; 3r., 2152
French Version, 3144. See also Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill Fripp, Mr. A. E. (Ottawa)
Canada Highways Act, qu. 1237 Cartier square, Ottawa, stores shed, qu. 3208
Civil Service
Political patronage in, Res. (Sir Sam Hughes) 792; Civil Service Act; patronage not abolished, 792; classification, Arthur Young & Company; Grif-fenhagen; Printing Bureau; Mr. Wolffe; destruction of documents; patronage exercised by irresponsible persons. 793; outside service; cost; efficiency not increased, 794; unrest; Federal Union No. 66; reorganization by deputy ministers, 795 Reorganization, qu. 600 Superannuation, application for increased allowances, qu. 2099 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4481 Daylight saving in Ottawa, qu. 2687 De Martigny divorce, 3715, 4004 Gilmour and Hughson Bill, 1096 "Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale, 4010-15 Right of House to review action of Private Bills Com., 4004
Frontenac Breweries, Limited, 1611
Fruit. See also Apples Berry boxes, 4106, 4114 Cold Storage, 1041 Duty on, 126, 164-8 Growing, 1469, 3354
In British Columbia, 9-10 Inspectors, 1041, 1042-3, 1045 Preserved, 3703
Fruit Marks and Sale Act, 1041 Fuel Control, 2944. See also Coal
Fuel Supply Problem. Sec also Coal; Lignite; Mines and Minerals; Natural Resources
Special Committee, M. (Mr. Steele) 1247; appointed, 1439; withdrawn, 1857; Mr. Chisholm substituted for Mr. Lemieux, 2148; Evidence, printing and distribution, 2027, 4250
Fulton, Mr. F. J. (Cariboo)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 206; issues proposed by Opposition, 206; congratulations to mover and seconder; reasons for opposing amendment; no demand for immediate election; assertion that Government has usurped powers, 207; war not only issue of 1917 election; problems arising out of war; changes in personnel of Government; constitutional right of Government to carry on; British and other precedents, 208; conduct of Sir Wilfrid Laurier in 1911; the reciprocity question, 209
Fumigation of Nursery Plants, 1028, 1031
Fur-bearing Animals, Conservation Commission, 3965
Furness-Withy Company, 1712 Gambling. See Criminal Code Amdt. Bill Game
Conservation Commission, 3965. See also Migratory Birds; National Parks
Gaols. See Prisons
Garbage Feeding. See Hog Cholera; Health of Animals
Gas and Gas Meters, Inspection of. See Inspection
Gaspe
Railway facilities, 2507
Railway from Amqui to GaspS Basin, 87t 881
Service, qu. 962
Timber and mineral resources, 875
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Gaspe and Bonaventure
Fishing communities, 103S
Gaspe and Maisonneuve. See Maisonneuve
Gauthier, Mr. L. J. (St. Hyacinthe-Rouville) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 74; comment on remarks of Mr. McMaster; demand for election in advance of redistribution; free trade, protection and the tariff, 74; fiscal policy of the Liberal Government; the late Hon. M. Tarte, 75; the Government's mandate ;increase of indemnity; precedents for retaining office; Liberals members occupying dual positions; member for Maisonneuve and Gaspd; "traitors and renegades"; Agrarianism a class movement, 79; Labour element, 80; isolation of Quebec; alliances of Laurier and Cartier, 81; Ontario natural ally of Quebec, 81; accusations answered; La SociSte des Artisans Canadiens Francais, 82; a "solid bloc" no longer possible; Quebec must have representation in public affairs, 86; the hour of Quebec has struck; Lafontaine, Cartier, Laurier; the Baptist preaching the coming of the Saviour, 87; gospel of toleration and self-respect, 88 Canadian National Railways t Management, Information - M. (Mr. King) 1196
Special Committee, reference to, M. (Mr. A. K. Maclean) 1583
Highways; Quebec-Montreal-Sherbrooke, 4305
Maisonneuve and Gaspd, representation, 2338
References to, 421, 446, 514, 535, 559, 3215
Gauthier, Mr. L. J., and Montreal Progressive Club, qu. 1131
Gauvreau, Mr. C. A. (Temiscouata)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 385; address not moved or seconded in French; Government has not confidence of country; voice of the people; the Press and by-elections, 385; unpopularity of Government; usurpation of power; Prime Minister's attitude towards Quebec, 386; Canadian National Railways deficit; treatment of old employees; clamour for general election, 387 Business of the House Monday, Government business, 2148


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Gauvreau, Mr. C. A.-Con.
Canadian National Railways Intercolonial
Section men, qu. 2028 Superannuation of employees, qu. 575 Section men, 1439
Canadian Nationals Definition Act, 2033 Census officials, 597 Civil Service Retirement Act, qu. 374 Civil Service Superannuation, qu. 734, qu. 967
Customs officer, Riviere du Loup, 3083 Farmers' sawlogs, 3743-4 Indians at Temiscouata, 2168 Macdonald, Hon. Senator, appointment of, qu. 577
Post Office Act Arndt. Bill, 2121 Sully station, 1822
Geodetic Survey, 2806 Report, 4340
Geological Survey, 2141-62. See also Mines and Minerals
Below normal strength, 870 Survey of Northern Canada, 856
George, Mr. A. D., qu. 1233
Georgetown wharf, 4564
Georgian Bay Canal, 212, 298, 679, 688, 745, 751, 755, qu. 2625, 3678. See also Great Lakes-St. Lawrence
Montreal, Ottawa and Georgian Bay Company, 229, 598, 1270
Germany
Commodity prices, 4431 Competition from, 3177, 4424 Cost of labour in, 4425 Enemy debts, 4534 Exports to Canada, 4426 Imports from, qu. 696, 838 Holdback, qu. 1350
Marking of. See Customs Tariff, Imported Goods
Labour conditions, 4425, 4428 Mark, 3810-19, 4421, 4431. See also Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Reparation, 98, 599, 4423-9 Canadian claims, 643, 3583, 4534 Trade with. See Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Gervais, Mr. Theodore (Berthier)
Berthierville telephone, qu. 1233 Tobacco
Excise taxes on, qu. 1236 Growing, qu. 1500
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[Stage Direction]
lix
Gilmour and Hughson, Limited. See Private Bills Discussed
Gladstone, Mr., and Thrift, 1169, 3640
Gladu, the late Mr. Joseph E. O., tribute to,
3, 153, 292, 430
Glanders. See Health of Animals
Glass, Mr. S. F. (East Middlesex) Experimental farms, 938 Flax industry, 931, 1399, 1408, 4455-8 Imports, per capita, 3415 Income Tax Act Arndt. Bill, 4349-52 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3868-95 Patent Act Amdt. Bill
Flax, process of retting-, 4455-8 Nolan Act, 4454
Right to continue to manufacture, 4454 Right to revive patent, 4454 Treaty of Versailles, 4453 Poultry industry, 939
Glass Industry, 3484 Gold
Melting down, 2160, 2269
Reserve, Dominion notes and, qu. 1234
Standard, 2269. See also Currency
Gold Seal Liquor Company, 4375. See also Canada Temperance Act
Good Roads Convention, 4300. See also [Highways
Goods, new and unused. See Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Gordon, Mr. G. N. (West Peterborough) Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill, 2915-22 Budget, 3543. Will affect milling industry, 3543; packing business in cereals, 3544; sales tax and package business, 3545; Minister of Immigration and Liberal party, 3547; Mr. W. F. O'Connor, 3548; Peterborough strike, 3549; unrest and wages, 3549; inconsistency of taxation, 3550	.
Civil Service Bonus, 2111 Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3910-20 Juvenile deliquents, spanking, 3920 Military and civilian caretakers, qu. 4340 Militia Department
Employment of women, 2286 "Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale, 4024 Oatmeal and package foods, 3543, 3736 Permanent Court of International Justice, 2727
Shipbuilding, 1968 Trent Canal, 2953-9, 2976 Unemployment relief to returned soldiers, qu. 4253
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Gouin, Sir Lomer, 1825
Gould, Mr. Oliver R. (Assiniboia)
Address in reply to Governor General s Speech, 335; speech of Mr. Scott; quotation from speech of Mr. Clark (Red Deer); Premier of Ontario; dissolution, 335; speech of Mr. Crerar; congratulations to Prime Minister; members elevated to Cabinet rank, 336; Mr. Stacey; Tariff Commission, 337; the amendment; "want of confidence argument; faith with the people broken; suggested fusion of Liberals and Progressives; platform of Canadian Council of Agriculture; Liberal platform of 1919, 338; agreements and differences, 339; Canadian Wheat Board; decline in.price of wheat; participation certificates, 340; freight rates; Advisory Council of Scientific 3666; manufacturers and United Farmers, 3667
Budget, 3662. United Grain Growers, 3662; Mr. Steven's remarks on York-Sun-bury election, 3662; new methods of taxation, 3663; taxation and large banking institutions, 3664; land taxation, 3664; agricultural losses from insect pests, 3665; Tariff Commission, 3666; manufacturers and Grain Growers' Association, 3667
Export liquor licenses in Saskatchewan, qu. 838
Farmers in Canadian Expeditionary Force, qu. 1349
Grasshopper plague, qu. 838, 1028, 3665 Horse clubs, 1120 Income tax, 2107 Insect pests, 930, 3665 Military district No. 12, 2379 Military expenditures, 2792 Military preparations, 2298 Natural Resources, transfer to western provinces, 1339
Reciprocity agreement with United States, 2072
References to election, 368, 391, 438 Saskatchewan Militia organization, 2792 Smallpox on Scandinavian, 1498 Wheat Board and Progressive party, 1455
Governor General
Acknowledgment of address in feply to Speech, 3830
Address to on retirement, 4433, 4493 Cars, 3037
Lord Burnham, suggested appointment of,
qu. 599	.
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Governor-General-Con.
Lord Byng-reported appointment, 4435 Announcement of appointment, 4541 Message from, 4169, 4289 Prorogation, 4577
Speaker's Chair, speech on presentation, 3696
Speech on opening of Parliament, 2; relative prosperity of country; revenue maintained; taxes remitted; measures to relieve unemployment; unemployment insurance and old age pensions; British West Indies; Assembly of League of Nations; Tariff revision; Commission of Conservation; Dominion Elections Act; Canada Temperance Act; Copyright; Income War Tax Act; Scientific Research, 2 Governor in Council, specific power to pass Orders in Council, 1098 Government
Attitude of in regard to information, 1739 Borrowing from. See Housing; Loans Buildings, Civil Service, meetings in. qu. 3421
Control of steamships, qu. 3530 Policy with regard to Estimates, 1026 Railways and ships, 1895. See also Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Canadian National Railways Responsibility to Parliament, 1197, 1098, 1192, 1213, 1186
Shipbuilding programme, 1858.- See also Shipbuilding
Ships. See Canadian Government Merchant Marine
Grade Cattle. See Health of Animals Graham, wharf, 3978 Graham, Mr. A. M., 2618 Grain Act. See Canada Grain Act Grain and Grain Trade, 316, 335, 390, 395, 396, 399. See also Agriculture; Address; Budget; Canada Grain Act; Canadian Wheat Board; United Grain Growers
Assignments of grain and produce as note securities, 1443
Car shortage, 512, 549. See also Railways; Transportation
Carriage on Great Lakes, 1915, 3371. See also Great Lakes Certificates, 1451
Commission to investigate, 342, 493, 510, 513, 539, 549, 2247. See also Grain Inquiry Commission Crushed grain, 3745 Dockages, 3633-34 Elevators, 277, 278 Country, 278


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Grain and Grain Trade-Con.
Elevators-Con.
Overages, 3634 Quebec, 282, 1443
Saskatchewan So-operative Elevator Co., 391
Terminal, 278, 1442 Weed seeds in, 289
Exchange, 277. See also Winnipeg Grain Exchange Export, 3045 Freight rates, 999, 3392
Lake, 1915, 2963, 3371. Sec also Canals; Canadian National Railways; Great Lakes-St. Lawrence; Hudson Bay Railway
Grain Growers' Grain Company, 288, 391, 3180, 3357, 3587, 3662, 3667. See also Address; Budget; Progressive Party; United Grain Growers Agricultural implements and, 418, 491, 3372, 3492
Grain Growers' Guide, 391, 420, 3360. 3393
Inspection. See Canada Grain Act Marketing, 346, 377, 383, 438 Moisture in grain, 1445 Montreal, handling at, 3371 Northwest Grain Dealers' Association, 277, 297, 379
Overages, 316, 1463, 3181, 3634 Screenings, 3182
Seed Grain Advances, 4498, 4506 Shipments
By American ports, 1975 Freight cars for, 3541 Staples, Mr. W. D., 3260 Supervisors, 439 Surplus fund, 1446 Tests, 1228
Transportation, 999, 2962, 2963, 2984, 3370. See also Canadian National Railways; Canals; Great Lakes-St. Lawrence; Hudson Bay Railway United Grain Growers' Company. See tinder this title Grain Growers Winnipeg laboratory, 1228 Grain Inquiry Commission, 278, 279, 441, 493, 1447, 1674, 2116, 2295, 3417 Counsel, Secretary, cost of, qu. 2625 Remuneration of Commissioners, 3972 Staples, Mr. W. D., qu. 3260 Winnipeg laboratory, 1228
See also Grain and Grain Trade Grand Etang Bridge, 3987 Light, 1997
Grand Trunk Arbitration
Board, salary of, qu. 1130
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lx!
Grand Trunk Arbitration-Con. Correspondence, 1619 Exchequer Court, Chief Justice, 1084 Expenses, 4335 Extension of time, 1498 Newcombe, Mr. E. F., qu. 1002 Obligations under agreement, 2030 Pensions, qu. 964 Progress of, 3321 Revival, 4436
Subsequent correspondence tabled, 3738 Taft, Hon. W. H., 4158 Tilley, Mr. W. N„ K.C., qu. 1001 White, Sir Thomas, 464, 1294 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill
lr„ 2247; M. for 2r., 2346; 2r., 2445; com., 2450, 2560; 3r., 2566; Senate amdts. 2977, 2821
Agreement to revive and continue Arbitration to be made before May 16, 1921, 2474
Extension of time, 2450 Immediate possession and control, 2248 Tetter of Messrs. Kelley and Phippen, 2454
Power to continue arbitration, 2248 Powers and duties of arbitrators to continue if Governor in Council extend time, 2476 Preamble, 2450 Request for delay, 2376 Grand Trunk Pacific Railway. Nee also Canadian National Railways; Grand Trunk
Betterments. 1015 Borrowing, 3291 Cost of, 1614 Deficit, 1005
Equipment, details of, 1015 Improvements, 1018 Loan of $89,687,633.39, 4331
Amended item, 4168, 4288, 4313 Loan of $26,000,000, 4169, 4288, 4334 Mileage, 1005 Operating results, 1014
Grand Trunk Railway
Acquisition of, 3118 Alleged request for assistance, 1498 Amount due by United States Government, 4135
Board of Directors, 4142, 3741 Bonds, issue and sale, qu. 837 Building of. 1584 Coal mines in United States, 4316 Control, qu. 697
Details of expenditure of $25,000,000 advance, 4143 Employees
Pensions, qu. 964
Grand Trunk Railway-Con.
Equipment trust certificates, qu. 604 Estimated cash requirements, 4140 Estimates for, 1864 Guaranteed advances to, 4139 Guaranteed bonds, sale of, qu. 604 Interest, alleged default, 1498 Lines in the United States, 4326 Central Vermont, 4327 Loan of $89,687,633.39, 4131, 4334 Amended item, 4168, 4288, 4313 Details of, 4144 McAdoo award, 4143 Management and details, 1008 Operating charges, qu. 1132 Operating results, 4319 Portland terminus, 1384, 4316-27 Running rights Richmond to Quebec, qu 964
Shareholders List of, 3320, 3560, 3740 Voluminous return, 3697 Grasshopper Plague, qu. 838, 930, 1027, 3665. Insect Pests. See also Destructive Insect and Pest Act
Graving Dock Company. See Halifax Grazing
Blood Indian reserve, qu. 1817-19, qu. 2098, 2618, 2374. See also Indians Leases, 335 Forest reserves, 383
Great Britain. See also Shipping; Trade American wheat, sale to, 1449 Apple exports to, qu. 1051, qu. 1714 Butter and cheese exports, 1471 Cattle, live, export to, 1474. See also Cattle Embargo
Decline of agriculture in, 3185 Tonnage, disposal of, 1718 Trade agreement with Russia, 1003
Great Lakes
Canadian Government Merchant Marine, and, 1913, 2192, 2969
Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Waterway
Chicago Drainage Canal diversion, 186, 2225
Motion (Mr. Keefer) for Special Com., 67495, 738
Withdrawn, 757
Great Northern and Lake St. John Railways,
Great War Veterans Association, 105, 214 Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill, 2855-81. See also that title
Dominion Housing scheme, 4049. See also Housing
Early General election, 455
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Greece and Roumania. See also Roumania Dominion Canners, purchasers from, qu. 1001
Loans to, qu. 1236
Grenville Canal. See Canals
Griesbach, Mr. W. A. (Edmonton West) Alberta Supreme Court, qu. 576 Canadian National Railways Provincial liabilities, qu. 2942 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4284-7 Civil Service (Res. Sir Sam Hughes) political patronage; present system preferable; Civil Service Commission; Federal Union No. 66, 825 Disability pensions, qu. 1235 Immigration, 3070
Migratory Birds Convention Act Amdt. Bill, 2891
Military preparations, 2299 Militia staff, 2793 Oil and Gas leases Bounties, 1387, 1413 Delay in issuing, 2029 Payments under, qu. 734, qu. 673 Surface rights, 579 Prime Ministers' Conference, 2639 Ross Rifle, 2784 Royal Military College, 2805 Y.M.C.A., qu. 1625
Griffenhagen and Associates, 1555, 2781, 2827, 4277, 4465, 4514, 4555. See also Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill; Civil Service, Reorganization, Post Office, Printing Bureau
Employment of, 517, 551, qu. 1821 Officials detailed to assist, qu. 600 Payments to, qu. 4251 Penitentiaries, * 1111
Griffin-Boscawen, Sir Arthur, 1156
Gulf of St. Lawrence Navigation Company,
Gutelius, Mr., Intercolonial Railway, 1847
Guthrie, Hon. Hugh (Minister of Militia and Defence and Acting Solicitor General) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 415; divergence between reasons advanced by leader of the Opposition and Mr. Clark (Red Deer) in support of amendment; the fiscal question, 415; trade policy of Great Britain; adverse balance of trade; exchange situation, 416; purchasing from United States; United Grain Growers; tariff, policy of Farmers' party; South York speech; Mr. Rice Jones; statement
Guthrie, Hon. Hugh-Con.
Address-Con.
compared with evidence before Tariff Commission; United Grain Growers machinery almost all from the United States, 418; farmers demand for free implements; millions going out of country; why not buy in Canada; 419; did not say Farmers party a "menace"; tariff; position of Farmers' party, 420; Mr. Drury; the official Opposition; Mr. Gauthier; balance of trade; Canada's indebtedness largely to her own people, 421; Liberal Convention of 1919; tariff plank; Liberal Government was protectionist, 423; the amendment; British and Canadian precedents for Government's continuance in office, 424; who is clamouring for election? 426; byelections; leader of Opposition represents only remnant of Liberal party, 427; amendment to the amendment (Mr. Campbell) 428; redistribution; rural and urban representation, 429 Air Board, 3776-85 Armistice Day Bill, 3773-5 Armouries for public meetings, 902 Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill, 2618, 2909-40, 3143, 4170
French version, 2557
Budget, 3267. Congratulations to Minister on financial showing; former surpluses did not reduce national debt, 3268; Brussels Conference; military expenditure, 3269; comparison of military expenditure by countries, 3271; returned soldiers and military training, 3279 Chief Electoral Officer, reports, 731 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2780 Civil Service classification and bonus, 2237
Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 4270
Corrupt Practices at Elections Bill, 1126, 2036
De Martigny divorce, 3771, 4203 Demobilization, 2286
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (Prohibition Plebiscite) 244, 259, 303 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill 2775, 2944, 3091, 4228-48	*
Advance polls, 3099 Amendments to writs, 3100 Certificate to women voters, 3111 Disqualified voters, 3099 Election officers, disqualification, 4245 Foreign-born wives and children of Bri-ish subjects, 3109, 4233


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[Stage Direction]
lxlii
Guthrie, Hon. Hugh-Con.
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill-Core. Naturalization-certificate of qualifica-ation
Amdt. (Mr. Euler) 4233 New forms, 3100
Nomination and polling day, 3096 Nomination paper, 4246 "Personally naturalized," 4244 Polls, hours of, 3095 Qualified voters, 3096 Recount, 3097
Returning officers' report, 3098 Revising officers, 3091, 3101 Voters, identification of, 3093 Franchise Act-foreign agitators and elections, 903
Judges' Act Amdt. Bilk 2118 Military expenditure, 2301, 3269, 3551 Military Service Act, claim for services, 2807 Militia
Annual drill, 2294 Cadet services, 2296 Command pay, 2290
Employees, increase in number of, 2014 Employment of women, 2286 Estimates, 2234-46, 2275-2310, 2781 Permanent Force, 2239, 2788 Purchasing Commission, 2239 Record Office, 2280 Sale of supplies, 2244-5 Staff, 2787-95
North American Trust Company, 1094, 1129 IJensions
Deduction from pay of Permanent Force, 2236, 2275 South African, 2278
Polish battalion for service in French army, 4052
Post Office Act Amdt. Billl 2120-25 Quebec citadel, 1442 Fortifications, 968
Returned Soldiers' Insurance Act Amdt.
Bill, 4261 Ross rifle, 2783
Royal Canadian Mounted Police, strength, 2800
Royal Military College, 2802 Soldiers' pensions, insurance and re-establishment, 4052 Tapley, W. H., case of, 972 Winding-up Act Amdt. Bill, 2158
Halbert, Mr. Robert H. (North Ontario) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 500; criticisms of Farmers' party; Colchester and East Elgin; election demanded by people; byelections, 501; redistribution; great
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Halbert, Mr. Robert H.-Core.
Address-Con.
issues at stake; farmers' part in national development; unity and agreement as to national ideals, 502; equal rights to all; protection and class privilege, 503
Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act Amdt. Billl, 2485
Half Island Cove, breakwater, 3981 Halifax
Canadian Government Merchant Marine, registration of vessels, 1720 Dockyards, 4017-36 Explosion, 1699 Fisheries award, qu. 2191 Graving Dock Company, qu. 567, 1690, 1698, 1861. See also Drydocks; Shipbuilding Harbour, government ships at, 1940 Naval College, 4010
Newspapers and merchant marine, 1705, 1706, 1928
Ocean terminals, 1017 Quarantine station, 2754 Roy Building, qu. 3089 Shipbuilding at, 1689, 1921. See also Shipbuilding
Shipyards. See Shipbuilding Hall Engineering Company, qu. 695
Halladay, Mr. H. H. (Bow River)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 334; congratulations to Prime Minister; the amendment,; mandate of the Government; election; the ins and outs; redistribution; Grain Commission, 334; price of wheat; the cattle industry; grazing leases, 335 Canadian Northern Railway, Hanna-Gal-gary line, 3048
Destruction of documents, qu. 60,' Immigration, 2590
Halladay, Mr., Canada Cycle and Motor Company, address, 1227
Hamilton-Brantford Highway. See Highways
Hanna, Mr. D. B., 381, 1191, 1609, 1658, 1774, 1801, 1852, 3051, 3406, 3499, 4315, 4328. See also Canadian National Railways Business interests, 3610
Hansard. See House of Commons, Debates
Hanson, Mr. R. B., and York-Sunbury election,3639. See also York-Sunbury
Harbours. See Canada Shipping Act. For Individual harbours, see their titles
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Harbours and Rivers, 3973-82, 4097, 1536 Estimates, amdt (Mr. Pardee) 3979 Manitoba, 3975	.
Nova Scotia, 391.9 Ontario, 3973
Prince Edward island, 3990 Quebec, 3991
Harding, Mr. R. T., payments to Judges, qu. 1500
Harling, Mr. Thomas, 19S!
Harold, Mr. John (Brant)
Binder twine fibre, 3746, 3756, 3505 Budget, 3500. Canada's financial position; manufacturing industries, 3501; tariff problems, protection and free trade, 3502; manufacturers' profits, 3503; tax upon profits, 3504; customs tariff, binder twine, 3505 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Express parcels, 4400 Impediment to business, 4400 Invoice certificate, fee, 4399 Trade agents, 4399 Proportional representation, 1544 Sales tax, 3754
Harrison, Mr. Charles R. (Nipissing)
Address in reply to Governor General's speech, 230; Grand Trunk strike in 1910, 230; the tariff; effect of Opposition policy on wage-earner; I'nited States industries in Canada; unemployment, insurance and old age pensions, 231; what Government has done for labour; the Mathers Commission, 232
Canadian Northern Railway Salaried officials, qu. 2942 Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill
Railwaymen's expenses while absent from home, 4352
Harrow Tobacco Station, 1076
Hawkins, Dr. Charles, and immigration, 3068
Hay, Mr. Thomas (Selkirk)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 393; congratulations to Prime Minister; no great demand for election; side-stepping of Opposition, 393; tariff; office seekers and usurpers; the home market, 394; the grain trade; commission of inquiry; old age pensions and unemployment insurance; Prime Minister should carry on, 396 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4242 Disfranchising, 3112
Hay, Mr. Thomas-Con.
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill-Con. Naturalization-certificate	of qualification
Amdt. 4242; agreed to, 4245 Hog cholera, compensation, 1065 Hudson Bay Railway, Amdt. 994 Imaginary letters, point of order, 3173 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3883
Hay and Straw Inspection. See Inspection
and Sale Act
Hayter, Mr., auditor, 1668
Head Tax. Sec Chinese Immigration
Health. See also Immigration; Opium and Narcotic Drugs; Quarantine Adulteration of food, 3129 Estimates, 2940-3127 Minister's statement, 3127 Medical inspection of immigrants, qu. 573 3128
Opium and Drug Act Amdt, convictions under, 3134
Quarantine stations, 3128 Report of, 1852 Research, 4464-78 Salaries, etc., 3127 Sick mariners, 3129, 3155 Smallpox on Scandinavian, 1498, 1556 Typhus in Europe, 643, 4534 Health of Animals, 926, 1048, 4506-13. See also Agriculture; Cattle Embargo; Live Stock
Accredited herd, 4506-13 Alderson, Mr. G. B., claim of. See that title Compensation for slaughtered cattle, 1061 Glanders outbreak in Prontenac, 926 Hog cholera, 1050-9. See also Alderson Increase in amount of item, 1064 Indemnity for diseased herds, 1048 Motions (Mr. Sutherland)
To reduce item, 1068 To strike out item, 4513 Tuberculosis, 4506-13
Veterinary system, 1058, 4508-13. Sec also Alderson
Hearst Publications, 4170
Heating. See House of Commons, Chamber
Henders, Mr. Richard C. (Macdonald) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 272; protection of agriculture; tariff changes in the United States; the tariff, 273; the Government's mandate, issues of the election of 1917, 274; record of the Government; important measures passed, 275; the "want


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INDEX-1921 lxv
[Stage Direction]
H enders, Mr. Richard C.-Con.
Address-Con.
of confidence" cry; no popular demand for an election; no charges of maladministration or corruption; progressive legislation, 276; Canadian Wheat Board; Grain Exchange; Northwest Grain Dealers' Association, 277; uniform price quotations; elevators; profits; overages, screenings; enquiry suggested, 279
Agricultural machinery, standardization of parts, 669; Arndt. 670 Binder twine, 3748 Butter and oleomargarine, 3748 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2868-83 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4232 Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4187 Wheat Board, 1454
Hepburn, Mr. W. B. R. (Prince Edward)
Dairy Produce Grading Bill, 4441
Hewitt, Dr. Gordon, the late, 1030
Hickman, Mr., alleged deportation of, qu. 575
Hides	.
Inspection, 1437
Prices of, 3317, 3370, 3491, 3667. See also Budget Speeches
High Commissioner in London, 2437
High Cost of Living. See also Address; Budget; Civil Service Retirement; Customs and Excise
Superannuated civil servants, 2491, 4275.
Highland Regiments. See Militia
Highways
Alberta, grants to, qu. 1821 Canada Highways Act, administration of, 4289
Approval of projects in Ontario, qu. 1237 Grants, qu. 567, qu. 2098 Commissioner, Mr. A. W. Campbell, 30234289
Expenditure, 2555 Good Roads Convention, 4300 Manitoba, proposed, 4308 Metapedia valley, qu. 2505 New Brunswick, approved, 4306 Nova Scotia
Approved and applied for, 4307 Highways Board, 4304 Ontario
Approved, 4295 Biggs, Hon. F. C„ 4290, 4448 "Charge of the Road Brigade," 4300 Dundas Street, qu. 4252, 4299
H ighways-Con.
Ontario-Con.
Dundas-Waterloo, 4298 Expenditure, 4289 Extravagance, charges of, 4304 Hamilton-Brantford, qu. 3582, 3904, 42523, 4290
Hamilton-Dundas, 4290
Hamilton-Kitchener, 4292
Hogarth, Mr., 4298
London-St. Thomas, 4307
Dondon-Stratford-Sarnia, 4307
Maclean, Mr., 4298
Peel and Halton, qu. 4252
Price paid for expropriated land, 4291
Purchase of trucks, 4292
Relevancy of discussion, 4293-6
"The Roads that Biggs Built," 4302
Toronto-Guelph-Sarnia, etc., qu. 4252
Toronto-Kingston, 4306
Town of Dundas, 4298
Wages, 4291
Warren Paving Company, qu. 4252; 4291 Ottawa-Point Fortune, 4306 Overhead charges, qu. 4252 Prince Edward Island, aid to, qu. 2345 Projected roads, 3025 Quebec
Approval of, qu. 2098 Federal aid to, qu. 2344, 2375 Hull-Montreal highway, 3029, 4306 Hull-Wakefield highway, 3033-34 Lachine bridge, 4308 La Salle, repairing road in, 4313, 4333 Montreal-Sherbrooke, 4305 Quebec-St. Joachim-St. Simeon, 4313 Rougemont-St. Hyacinthe, 4305 St. ^Hyacinthe-Richmond, 4305 Saskatchewan, approved, 4307 Grants to, qu. 1820
Statement of highways under agreement or consideration, 4309 Width of, 4306
Hillsboro river dredging, 3984 Historical Publications, Board of, 2947
Hobson, Mr. Robert, 1609-10, 3407, 3610. See also Canadian National Railways
Hocken, Mr. H. C. (West Toronto)
Chief Justice, salary of, 1565 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2859-66 Copyright Amdt. and Consolidation Bill, 3844-50
De Martigny divorce, 4006-8 Fraser, Mr. Roy, and Civil Service Commission, 2860-8 Fuel Supply Problem, 1261
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lxvi


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INDEX-1921
[Stage Direction]
lxvii
House of Commons-Con.
Divisions
Address, Amdt. (Mr. Mackenzie King) non-confidence, neg. 561 Budget, Amdt. (Mr. Fielding) neg. 3686-7 Canadian National Railways
Management, Information-M. (Mr. Mackenzie King) neg. 1215 Special Com., reference to
M. (Mr. Meighen); Amdt. (Mr. Mackenzie King) neg. 1810; Main motion agreed to as amended, 1814 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill
Amdt. (Mr. Maclean, Halifax)-six months' hoist, neg. 2886 De Martigny Divorce Bill
M. (Mr. Stein) agreed to, 4107 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (Mr. Guthrie)
Amdt. to 3r. (Mr. Euler) neg. 4249 Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill Amdt. to 3r. (Mr. Pardee)-six months' hoist, neg. 4226 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill Amdt. (Mr. Denis) 3886-six months' hoist, neg. 3886 Prime Ministers' Conference
Amdt. (Mr. Mackenzie King) neg. 2679 Reciprocity-Amdt. to Supply (Mr. Fielding) neg. 2075
Representation in Parliament Amdt.
(Mr. King) neg. 1329 Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt. Bill (Mr. McMaster) 665 Estimates. See aslo that title Method of voting, 4033, 4117, 4569 Post Office, late date of submission, 4531 Rule 17C-Thursdays and Fridays, 958, 1004, 1073, 1215, 1217, 13SB5, 1682, 2103-4, 2887, 3001, 4544 Effect of passage of Interim Supply Bill, 2103, 2105
Right to call department when in Com. of Supply, 2888 Supplementary, inquiry, 4070 Imaginary letters, 3172. See algo that title Indemnity of Members, 4450-52 Internal Economy Commission, 3 Members
Attendance of, 1829, 1832, 1838 Deceased, tributes to
Gladu, the late Mr. Joseph E. O.
(Yamaska) 3, 153, 292, 430 McLeod, the late Col. H. F. (York-Sunbury) 4, 153
Sifton, the late Right Hon. Arthur (Medicine Hat) 3,* 153	.
House of Commons-Con.
Members-Con.
Deceased-Con.
Wallace, the late Mr. Thomas G. (West York) 152
Money resolutions, and, 1135 New
Election and introduction Gordon, Mr., 258 MacKelvie, Mr., 1 McCurdy, Hon. Mr., 1 McDermand, Mr., 1 Wigmore, Hon. Mr., 1 Non-attendance on Mondays and Fridays, 1832-8
Resignation of. See also Representation in Parliament
Ames, Sir Herbert, 1001. See also that title
Maharg, Mr., 4340 Rowell, Hon. Mr., 4340 White, Sir Thomas, 1619. See also that title
Ministers to sit in either Chamber. See Ministers Motions
For returns in general terms, 1555 Notices of sent in Advance, 1307 Pairs, correction of list, 563. See also under this title Divisions
Parliamentary Restaurant. See that title Privilege
Archambault-SocifitO des Artisans, 230 Clark, Mr., (Red Deer)-Address, incorrect report in Ottawa Citizen, 448 Denis, Mr.,-Immigration, misinterpretation cf speech by Quebec newspapers, 3088 Desaulniers, Mr. Correction, Montreal Gazette, 644 Name omitted from division list, 4255 Edwards, Mr.,-representation of Maison-neuve-Gaspd, 2247, 2310 Kay, Mr.,-Oleomargarine Act Amdt.
Bill, vote on, 3971 Lapointe, Mr. Alleged statement of Mr. Davidson regarding Liberal leadership, 2443 Correction of report in Ottawa Journal, 477
Explanation of remarks on Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4543 National Catholic Unions, 3584 Meighen, Right Hon.,-York-Sunbury election, Hon. Mr. Veniot, 3716 Pedlow, Mr.,-Amendment incorrectly printed in Votes and Proceedings, 737
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House of Commons-Con.
Privilege-Con.
Power, Mr.,-Withdrawal from Special Committee, Returned Soldiers, 789 Robb, Mr.,-Quebec bloc, 3261 Turgeon, Mr.,-Hon. Mr. Veniot, 3740 Wilson, Mr., (Wentworth)-Challenge to Hon. F. C. Biggs, 4448 Questions
Inquiry as to, 2943 Not answered, 1621, 1502 Returns
Alleged disobedience or neglect of order, 3320
Alleged imperfect, 2250-70 Inquiry for, 1176, 1499, 1502, 2688, 2775, 2777, 3008, 3320, 4255 Motions for in general terms, 1555 Reason for delay, 1555 Rules
Suspension of, 3582, 3715 Bills, first reading, 3716 17C. See under this title Estimates Sergeant-at-Arms; Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms, 3 Sittings
Attendance at, 1844. See also under this title Wednesday evening Duration of, 1330, 1828, 2438, 2736, 2750, 2772, 2887, 2998, 3000, 3900, 4169, 4420, 4449, 4531 All night
Government shipbuilding programme, 1858-2026
Saturday, 2777, 2818, 2941, 4338-40 Two o'clock, 2941, 3737 Wednesday	[DOT]
Two o'clock, 447 Evening, 1002, 1174, 1384
M. (Mr. Fielding) 1828; withdrawn, 1845
Staff
Law Branch, changes, 2685 Long sittings, 2887
Organization and compensation, 2441, 2685
Retirement Act, 4266-78. See Civil Service Retirement Act Women workers, 4547 Supply. See also that title Interim-Redlich, authority on, 1675 Procedure, 1215
Thursdays and. Fridays-Rule 17C - See under this title, Estimates Vacancies. See also under this title Byelections
Filling of, 1293. See Representation in .Parliament
House of Commons-Con.
Vacan cies-Con.
Leeds, 1293, 1619. See also White, Sir Thomas
Medicine Hat, 478, 1174, 1293
St. Antoine, 1001, 1069, 1293. See also Ames
Yale, 1
Yamaska, 478, 643, 1293. See aslo that title
York-Sunbury, 478,643, 1293
York, West, 478, 643, 1293 Writs, 643
House of Lords. See Ministers Housing, 4362-8. See aslo Labour; Returned Soldiers; Unemployment Dominion jHousing scheme, 4049 Loan to provincial governments, 4552 Proposed establishment of a Federal Housing Board
M. (Mr. Hocken) 1134, 1152
M. as amended withdrawn, 1857 Howard, Mr. See Purchasing Commission Hudson Bay Railway, 330, 538, 1578, 1961, 1966, 2969-80. See also Canals Early resumption and completion, M. (Mr. Campbell) 974
Arndt. (Mr. Hay) 994; agreed to, 999
M. (Mr. Campbell) as amended, withdrawn, 1852-6
Expenditure actual and estimated, qu. 2623 Fort Churchill, 1966 Port Nelson, 1966 Selection of lands, qu. 672 Hudson, Hon. A. B., 4184-4213 Hughes, Hon. Sir Sam (Victoria)
Civil Service-Res.-Political Patronage in; fads and freaks, 789; up lifters; Outside Service; Civil Service Commission; Inside Service; Committee to investigate, 790; trust and mistrust; autocracy, 791 Hungry Bay road, 1661 Hunter, Dr. Andrew, fox-breeding, 1428 Hydro-Electric Power. -See Fuel Supply Problem; Great Lakes-St. Lawrence Hyndman, Judge, and Grain Inquiry Commission, 1674 Icebreakers, 1979 " Lake Champlain '', 2174 " Montcalm ", 1985 New, 1994
Thunder Bay, at, 2174 Ice-cream, tax, 3737, 3956
lies aux Grues-Montmagny mail service 4529


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[Stage Direction]
lxix
Illegal Practices. See Corrupt Practices at Elections Bill
Illicit Still, innocent manufacture of part, 3788-3820
Imaginary Letters [DOT]
Hon. Mr. Ballantyne, 3174-3209 Mr. McMaster, 3173 Speaker's ruling, ' 3260
Immaculate Conception, 2626. See also Civil Service, Religious Holidays
Immigration, 269, 3580. See also Canadian Nationals Definition Act; Chinese Immigration; Health; Unemployment British, Inspector of, 3067 Central European, 2575-85 Chinese, 4131. See also Chinese Immigration
Continuous passage, 2580-6 Co-operation of railways, 4129 Emigration to the United States, 3068 Esmonde, Mr. Osmonde Grattan, arrest for sedition, 1556 Exhibitions, 3067, 4129-31 Expenditure, qu. 2943 German and Austrian, 3206 Halifax Quarantine Station, 2754 " Hand picking " of immigrants, 3203 Head tax, 3056
Hickman, alleged deportation of, qu. 574 Immigrants rejected, qu. 1624 Infection, danger of, qu. 272 Inspectors, 3067
Land settlement policy, 25S1, 2588-9 Liberal administration, under, 3245 Loss of in Western Canada, 3373-4 Medical inspection of immigrants, 312S Medical offices at ports of departure, 3132 Mental defectives, of, 3055, 3583 Money qualification. 2579-85 Nationality of, 3071
Oriental, 2584-94, 2595. See also Chinese Immigration
Partridge Island Quarantine station, 2808-15
Policy, 850, 861, 872, 879, 3205, 3249, 3256, 3580
Polish immigrants rejected, qu. 964 Restriction of, 507, 1127, 2568-77, 2585 Statistics, 3071-3073 Suspension of. See Unemployment Typhus fever, precautions, 643, 4534 Western Canada Colonization Association, 2583
Immigration Act Arndt. Bill
lr., 3007; 2r., com., 3822; 3r., 3955; Senate amdts. 4343
Immigration Act Arndt. Bill-Con.
Subjects and Sections discussed:
Bill of health, 3824
Costs of appeal, 3823	[DOT]
Deportation after five years -cost, 3827 Hearing of cases, 3823 Investigation of complaints-deportation -cost, 3826
Landing of passengers, 3824 Medical examination, 3824 Non-immigrant classes, 3822 Possessing prescribed amount of money, 3825
Powers of Board exercised by officers in charge, 3823
Immigration Act Arndt. Bill (Deportation of Undesirables)
lr., 1497; order for 2r., stands, 1858. See above Bill
Immigration and Colonization
Department
Contingencies and general expenses, 4127
Deputy Minister, 3057 Estimates, 2568
Contingencies, 4131 Postponement of consideration, 3077 Quebec, officers at, qu. 1131 Salaries, 2568-2602, 3055, 3068
Imperial Bureau of Entomology, 1025
Imperial Conference, 526, qu. 564, 1073. See also Prime Ministers' Conference
Imperial Defence, 228, 270. See also Prime Ministers' Conference
Committee on, 2637-49
Imperial Federation, 159, 2423. See also Prime Ministers' Conference
Imperial Institute, 4499
Imperial Mineral Resources Bureau, 2164, 4498
Imperial Munitions Board, 1284. See Research
Shipbuilding, and, 1730, 1859, 1875
Imperial Oil Company, 3206, See also Oil; Petroleum Bounties
Imperial Relations, 247, 484, 519. See also Prime Ministers' Conference
Imperial War Conference, 1917, 2389
Res. 2626-36-48. See also Prime -Ministers' Conference
Implement Manufacturers, 91. See also Agricultural implements
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INDEX-1921 Ixxl
[Stage Direction]
Inquiry for Returns, House of Commons. See Returns
Insecticides, 1027
Insect Pests, 930, 1024, 3665. See also Destructive Insect and Pest Act; Entomology; Grasshoppers
Inspection and Sale Act
Administration, 1437
Inspection and Sale Act Arndt. Bills
Berry Boxes, 4106, 4114 Hay and Straw, lr., 3319-20; 2r., com., 3r., 3759
Root vegetables, 4343	.
Inspection of Animals. See Cattle Embargo; Health of Animals
Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill
lr., 351; 2r„ 607; 3r„ 2944
"Insular" Tribunal of England, 1090
Insurance. See also Fire Insurance; Returned Soldiers; Unemployment	1
Canadian, in foreign firms, 3469 Canadian Government Merchant Marine, 1278
Officers and seamen, 4359 Canadian National Railways, 1772 Fire, 3469
Fort Garry Hotel, Winnipeg, qu. 1348 La Socifetd des Artisans Canadiens Fran-Qais, 82
Marine, 1703. See also Shipbuilding Registered mail matter, 2120-24 Registered parcels. See Post Office Act Amdt. Bill
Returned Soldiers, 4041. See that title; also Pensions
Returned Soldiers Insurance Act Amdt.
Bill, 4260, 4355. [DOT]See also that title Sickness, 2554
Taxation of Mutual Companies, qu. 605 Unemployment. See that title
Insurance "Act
Proposed amendments, inquiry, 2625 M. for res. 4339; withdrawn, 4453
Insurance Conference, 3088
Intercolonial Railway. See that title under Canadian National Railways
Interim Supply. See also Supply Closure. See that title Debate postponed, 1682 Former votes, of, 1681 Motion withdrawn, 1683 Point of Order-Res. to be preceded by notice, 1676
Interim Supply Bill. See also Appropriation
Acts
Res. 1674; objected to, 1674; notice, Rule 17B, unanimous consent, 1676-82; withdrawn, 1683; Res. 2001; Amdt. (Mr. Lemieux) 2018-20; closure, notice of under Rule 17B, 2025-6 lr„ 2095; 2r., com., 2100; 3r., 2116
Interior Department
Draughtsmen, 1334
Minister, necessity for presence in Commons, 1155 Salaries, 1330 Surveys Branch, 1332 Surveyor General,- 1342
International Association of Railways Congress, 3023
International Boundary Commission, 1342, 4494
Joint report, 4340
International Commission, Fraser River, 2189
International Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property, adherence to, 230
International Customs Tariff Bureau, 1437 International Financial Conference. See
Brussels '
International Harvester Company, 3394. See also Agricultural machinery
International Institute of Agriculture, 1116
International Joint Commission, 164, 2388. 2421, 2435. See also Great Lakes-St. Lawrence; Lake of the Woods Appointment of Sir William Hearst, 510 Lake of the Woods Control, 1071, 1176, 1233, 4172
St. Lawrence waterway, 691, 3960-70 International Justice. See Permanent Court
International Labour Conference, 544. See also Labour
International Labour Union. See Labour, National Catholic Unions
International Trade Conference, qu. 2029. See Trade
"Internationale," dredge, qu. 2192, qu. 2506 Inventors. Sec Patent Act Amdt. Bill Inverness
Fishery overseers, 2178 Harbour, 3985 Public building, 2817
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lxxii

Invoice Certificates. See Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
loco, wharf, 3979
Ireland, Parliament for South of, qu. 603
Iron and Steel Industry
Development of, 873-4. See also Natural Resources; Steel
Irrigation. See also Natural Resources Belly river water rights, qu. 2943 Milk river water rights, qu. 2099 Southern Alberta and Saskatchewan, 858
Isaac, Mr. See French Trade Agreement
Italy
Cargoes of wine from, 1715 Lira, exchange value of, 3816-4227 Trade with. See Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Jacobs, Mr. S. W. (George Etienne Cartier) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 503; congratulations to Prime Minister; by-election in Peterborough, 504; National Liberal and Conservative party; Mr. Bourassa, 505; Mr. R. B. Bennett; Government saturated with war spirit, 506; shipbuilding; immigration; restrictive loans and regulations, 507; railways and public ownership; Department of Trade and Commerce, 508; Departments not directly represented in House; military expenditures, 509; Royali Commission to investigate grain trade; conciliatory overtures to Quebec; appointments that violate the traditions, 510 Agriculture Dept.-Salary of Deputy Minister, 950 Air Board, 3780-3 Alpine Club, 4494 American immigration, 3065 Ames, Sir Herbert, resignation, 1327 Animal Contagious Diseases, 1048 Armistice Day Bill, 3773 Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill (Mr. Jacobs)

French Version, 1069, 2256 Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill (Mr. Guthrie) 2910-39, 3144
Bankruptcy Act, Judges under, 1085 British Remount Commission, qu. 4341 Canada Temperance Act
Damages, 4387
Invasion of the province of the courts, 4379
Proceedings pending, 4378 Canadian Bar Association, 1094 Canadian Forestry Association, 4494
Jacobs, Mr. S. W.-Con.
Canadian National Railways, Special Com., reference M. (Mr. Meighen) 1785 Cattle embargo, 1072 Chief Justice, salary of, 1568 Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3896-8, 3906-30, 4342
Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Commissioner, 4388 Reflections on legal profession, 4406 Trade commissioners, 4406 De Martigny divorce, 3763 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill Foreign-born wives of British subjects, 3105
Esmonde, Mr. Osmonde Grattan, 1556 Foundation Company of Montreal, payments to, qu. 4341 Fox-farming, 1433 Governor General's cars, 3037 Grand Trunk Arbitration expenses, 4335 Grand Trunk loan, 4158 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 749 Immigration, 2574-92, 3055 Exhibit decorator, 3066 Officials, 3057
Juvenile delinquents-spanking, 3918 League of Nations, contribution to, 2357-69 Liquor, tax on, 3708
Maisonneuve and GaspO, representation, 1325, 2333
Medicinal preparations, 3709 Militia, cadet services, 2297 National Transcontinental, Winnipeg-Quebec service, 2513 Natural Research Institute, 2894 " Niobe " and "Rainbow", sale, 4018-31 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3880-2 Opium and Narcotic Drugs Act Amdt. Bill, 2898-2905 Amdt. to amdt., #)03 Parliament buildings, 4075 Patent Act Amdt. Bill, 4456 Penitentiaries, 1092
Permanent Court of International Justice. 2709-35
Permanent Force, 2278 Private Bills-extension of time, 1625 Quarantine, typhus, 4170 Representation in Parliament, 1327 Roumanian loan, interest, 1441, 2030 Supreme Court and Privy Council appeals, 1089-1090
Tariff revision, qu. 903, 2346 Trade commissioners, 1219, 1465 Trent canal, 2607
Unemployment and immigration, 1358 Wines-British colonies, 3710 James MacLaren Company, Limited. See
Private Bills Discussed


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INDEX-1921
[Stage Direction]
lxxiii
Jameson, Mr. Clarence, 799. (See also Civil Service
Japan
Foreign credit, balance of, 1227-8
Johnston, Mr. Alex., 1280 Reappointment, G44
Johnston, Mr. J. Fred. (Last Mountain) Address, 437. Congratulations to Prime Minister, 437; Canadian Wheat Board; statement of Minister of Immigration at Regina; attitude of Progressives, 438; definite stand taken on "enabling legislation ", the farmers and wheat control; report of grain supervisors, 439; objections to Wheat Board, 440; scarcity of cars; increase in freight rates; commission to investigate grain trade; Board of Commerce, 441; Mr. G. M. Murray and the press, 442; the West anxious for an election, 444 Agricultural shows, 1245 Budget, 3550. Military expenditures; shifting of taxation, 3551; tariff revision, 3552; Government policy of moderate protection, 3553; agriculture, area and revenue, 3553; Soldier Settlement Boarjj, operations, 3554; natural resources of prairie provinces, 3555; Ambassador to Washington, 3556; Farmers' party, 3556
Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4469-72 Cow-testing, 1037
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4241 Naturalization-Certificate of qualification, 4241
Grain Commission, 1449
Grand Trunk Railway, operating charges, qu. 1132 .
Immigration, restriction of, 1127 Indian Commissioner at Regina, 2167-9 Live stock breeding, 1117 Muscowegan reserve, 2171 Oil development in Mackenzie district, 2162 Post Office, outside service, 4528 Public Works, expenditures in Saskatchewan, 2818
Reciprocity agreement with United States, 2070
Stayner postmaster, 4470 Wheat Board, 1454
Joliette Bridge, 3038
Jones. See Rice Jones
Judge Snider. See Printing Bureau
Judges. See also Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill; Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, Revising Officers
Judges-Con.
Appointment of, 801, 811, 813 Chandler, Judge, Moncton, 2119 Chief Justice, Supreme Court, exemption of salary, 2188 Exchequer Court, 1083-4 Batchford, Judge, payment to, qu. 1500 Macleod Judicial district, qu. 2344 Number of, 1081
Riddell, Judge, payments to, qu. 1500 Salaries, 3680
Saskatchewan King's Bench, additional Judge, 1559
Travelling expenses, 1559, 2118 Vice-Admiralty, 1084 Wilson, Judge, qu. 1622	.
Yukon Territory, salaries and living allowance, 1087-8
Judges Act, 1920
Correspondence, M. (Mr. Lemieux) 1851
Judges Act Amdt. Bill
Res. 1559; Amdt. (Mr. Lanetot) neg. 1572; lr„ 1573;	2r„ com., 2117; 3r„ 2151;
Senate amdts. 3009; Free Conference with Senate, 3972; 4040-61; 4250
Judicial Committee. See Privy Council Judicial Districts, Quebec, 1081-3 June Bugs, 1030 Justice
Administration of, Y'ulcon Ten'itory, 1087 Department
Counsel emploj'ed in, 1077, 3523 Legal cases referred to, 1655 Litigated matters, expenses, 1089 Newcombe, Mr. E. F., qu. 1002 Purchasing agent, 1079, 1115, 2017 Salaries, 1076
Taxation forms, revision by, qu. 1237 Law stamps, tax, 1090
Penitentiaries, estimates, 1091, 1096. See also Penitentiaries
Privy Council appeals, 1089. See also that title
Juvenile Courts. See Juvenile Delinquents Juvenile Delinquents, 3013 Spanking, 3918
Juvenile Delinquents Act Amdt. Bill
lr„ 3319; 2r., com., 3r., 3758 Kamouraska, plum-growing, 1048 Kamouraska and Temiscouata Telephone Co.,
Kapuskasing Illustration station, 949 Kay, Mr. W. Fred. (Missisquoi)
Camp Grounds, Farnham, Que„ qu. 1132 Canada Temperance Act, qu. 4253
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Kay, Mr. W. Fred.-Con.
Census enumerators, qu. 735, qu. 1132, 4113
Income tax forms, 1176
Missisquoi
Census enumerators, qu. 735, qu. 1132, 4113
Net fishing in Missisquoi Bay, qu. 570 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3854 Privilege-vote on Oleomargarine Bill, 3971
Special War Revenue Act-condensed milk and ice-cream, 3956	[DOT]
Victoria Day, 3531
Keefer, Mr. Francis H. (Port Arthur and
Kenora.)
Africa, trade with, 1965 Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill, 2925 Canada-West Indies Trade agreement, 2259 Canadian representation in the United States, 2424-6 Canal tolls, 2963 Cattle embargo, 730
Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, . 2487-8
Fuel Supply Problem, 1257 Grain transportation rates, 2982 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2479 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, Res. 674, 753
Kingston, wharves and bridges, 3973 Lake of the Woods Control Board Bill, 2346-54
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4184-98 Parliament buildings, 3999 Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act Amdt. Bill, 2483-4
Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt. Bill (Ministers and directorships) 593
Kemp, Hon. Sir Edward (East Toronto) Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt. Bill (Ministers and directorships) 590
Kenora
Board of Trade, 4184-6 Dam, 4172
Kennedy, Mr. J. Wilfred (Glengarry and Stormont)
Cattle, embargo, 720 Cattle feeds, 3744 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill New and unused goods, 3814 Grading of cheese, 1037 Hudson Bay Company, selection of land, qu. 672
Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3866
Unemployment and immigration, 1372
Kennedy, Mr. W. C. (North Essex)
Budget, 3404; deficit and annual debt; militia expenditures; mercantile marine, 3405; railway situation, 3406; Canadian National Railways, directors, 3407; manufacturers and home and foreign markets, 3408; importations from United States, 3409; amdt. of Mr. Fielding, 3410
Canadian National Railways, Board of Management, qu. 1132 Civil Service bonus, 2111-13 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 684
King, Hon. W. L. Mackenzie (Leader of the Opposition)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 10; congratulations to Prime Minister; usurpation of authority by Government; changes in Ministry; elected as a war administration-has it a mandate?-comparison with former administrations, 12; retirement of ministers principally responsible for Government's war record, 13; aims of present and former administrations different, 15; the tariff, 17; issue excluded in formation of Union Government, 19; no right to legislate without consulting the people; grounds for continuance of Government examined; limitation of parliamentary term, 20; supremacy of Parliament, 22; no pledge given in 1917, 23; withdrawal of Ministers who believed administration had fulfilled its mandate, 24; desire of Leader of Opposition for an election; significance of by-elections, 25; Canada alone in denying to people right of general election, 26; violation of fundamental principles of free government, 28; non-confidence amendment, 28
Air Board, 3782
Ames, Sir Herbert, resignation, 478, 1069, 1295
Archives, provision for, 2949 Arctic expedition, 4106 Armistice Day, 3775 Auditor General's Report, 737, 903, 915 Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill, 2909 Budget, 3596. Tariff revision and the Government; tariff inquiry, 3598; Republican party in the United States- barriers to trade between two countries; exchange rate, 3599; comparison of Budget speech and policy and principles of National Liberal and Conservative party, 3600; inter-imperial


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INDEX-1921 lxxv
[Stage Direction]
King, Hon. W. L. Mackenzie-Con.
Budget-Con.
trade, 3601; association between interests and Government during war period, 3602; political power united with plutocracy of self-interest, 3603; Board of Commerce-Mr. Murdock, 3604; lack of constructive legislation, 3607; protection of the interests, 3607; expenditure on National Railways and Merchant Marine, 3608: directors, of National Railways and business interests, 3609; loans to foreign countries, 3611; Members of Parliament and sales to foreign countries, 3611; Minister of Crown soliciting business from foreign government, 3612; Prime Minister and misrepresentation of attitude of Opposition, 3612; free trade and protective tariffs, 3613; methods of taxation, 3614; downward revision of tariff, 3616; election necessary, 3618
Budget, date of, inquiry, 1555, 2151 Business of the House
Estimates-alleged agreement, 4569 For to-morrow, 2145
Interruption of debate on Address, 151 Legislation
Pending, 2150, 2819, 3972	.
Undue haste, 313 Lengthy discussions, 1230 Monday-Government business, 2148 Order of, 1619 Prorogation, 4069 Sittings
Duration of, 897, 900, 1330, 2887 Saturday, 2818 Wednesday evening, 1002 Supply, procedure, 1216 Victoria Day, 3689
By-elections, dates, 903. See also under this title Representation in Parliament Canadian Government Merchant Marine, 1292
Canadian Nationals Definition Act, Bill. 585, 648
Canadian National Railways
Government-owned railways, correspondence, 1004
Information-attitude of the Government, 1759 Management, 1440
M. that information be laid before Parliament, 1178 Special Committee, reference to
M. (Mr. A. K. Maclean) 1188, 1594; M. (Mr. Meighen) 1758; Arndt. (Mr. King) 1761; Arndt. (Mr. Crerar) 1813
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King, Hon. W. L. Mackenzie-Con.
Canadian Representation in the United States, 2378-2429
Chinese Immigration Act Arndt. Bill, 3828 Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 2486	*
Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill
Amdt. (Mr. A. K. Maclean) 2844; M. for 2r., 2778 Commission Annual report, 4477 Jurisdiction of, 4286-8 Returned soldiers, 4258-9 Special) Com.
Quorum,'. 2940 Reference to, 2776
Copyright Amdt. and Consolidation Bill, 2908, 3843-50	.
Cost of Living, 4551 Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3830 Date of summoning Parliament, 311 Daylight saving in Ottawa, 2776 Deceased members, tributes to, 4, 153 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (Prohibition Plebiscite) 151, 309	;
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill Bill not printed, 2944 Certificate of qualification, 3090, 3107-10, 4238-9
Foreign-born wives and children of British subjects, 3090 Forms, 3100
Voters' lists, registration, 3092 Dominion Lands Act Amdt. Bill, 4062-6 Estimates. See also under this head Business of the House, Interim Supply Committee on, 2207-9 Time of taking up, 1330 French Trade Agreement, 2125 Governor General-address to on retirement, 4434
Grand Trunk Arbitration BUI
Agreement of March 8, 1920, 2377 Committee of five, 2479 Legal consequences, 2451 Liquidation, 2451
Position of Opposition on taking over Grand Trunk, 2560 Ratification of new agreement, 2450 Request for delay, 2346 Senate amendments, 2777, 2823 Submission of agreement to Parliament, 2476
House of Commons staff, 2887 Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill, 4343 Interim Supply, 1679, 2115 Attitude of Opposition, 2004 Objected to, 1674 Obligations for payment, 2025
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Ixxvi

King, Hon. W. L. Mackenzie-Con.
Judge Snider's report, 3697, 3761, 3905 Judges Act Arndt. Bill, 2117-18 Kamloops, speech at, 3623 Labour Department Alleged combines, 4551 Bolshevism-pamphlet, 4548 Fair wages, 4545
Industrial Disputes Investigation Act 4552
Minister-letter of in Gazette, 1643 Lake of the Woods Control Board Bill 2033
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 3903 4211-17
League of Nations, contribution towards 2356
Ministers to sit in either Chamber, 1163 Montreal Harbour Commission Bill, 2159 National Research Institute, 2894. See also Research Natural resources Adjournment of debate, 894 Transfer of to western provinces, 254652
Nauru Island, phosphate deposits, 4255 4541
Newsprint, alleged combine, qu. 2099 Opium and Narqotic Drug Act Amdt. Bill, 2898-2907
Owens, the late Thomas P., Editor of Debates, 258
Park St. Charles Company, proposed payment, 4573
Peterborough speech, 134 Post Office Act Amdt. Bill, 2123 Press Gallery, 2887 Prime Ministers' Conference, 2631 Amdt. to Supply, 2634-58 Prisons and reformatories, 3011 Privilege-alleged statement of Mr. Davidson regarding Liberal leadership, 2443 Privileges and Elections Committee, 2373 Proportional representation, 1552 Public money, accounting for, 1292 Purchasing Commission, 1099 Statutes
Limiting power, 1101 Providing for tenders, 1105 Representation in Parliament Vacancies (Amdt. to Supply), 1293, 1300, neg. 1309
By-elections, 1306 Rockefeller Foundation, 2443 Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act Amdt.
Bill, 2481, 2801 Shipbuilding. 1292


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King, Hon. W. L. Mackenzie-Con.
Speaker's Chair, 3693
Supplementary Estimates, inquiry for, 3741 Tariff inquiry, 3055 Tariff revision, 3622-3 Unemployment, 4549
Vacancies, 478. See also under this head Representation
War Times Election Act, 4238 White, Sir Thomas, qu. 477
King's Bench. Sec Judges Act Amdt. Bill Judges, 1081
King's Birthday, 4450
King's County, fruit inspectors, 1041
Kingston
Fortifications, 969 Penitentiary. See Penitentiaries Wharves and bridges, 3973
Kino Hill, silver discovery, 856
Kirkwood Steamship Company, qu. 564
Knox, Mr. Andrew (Prince Albert)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech. 537; congratulations to Prime Minister; the amendment; Soldiers' Settlement Board; Porcupine Forest Reserve; lack of transportation facilities-freight rates-Hudson Bay Railway, 538; investigation of grain trade; farmers' movement
Budget, 3414. Government has reverted to indirect taxation, 3414; militia expenditures, 3415; expenditures on canals; northern Saskatchewan transportation facilities, 3416; protection and the farmers; grain inquiry, 3417 Canadian National Railways, passenger traffic, Montreal-Winnipeg, qu. 2376 Chinese immigration, 3056 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2855 Cordwood for fuel, 3748 Credits to Roumania and Greece, qu. 1236 Hudson Bay Railways, 538, 982 Immigration, 2589-90 Income tax payers-farmers, qu. 838 Saskatchewan railway lines, 3054 Senate representation-Saskatchewan. 2567 Trent canal, 2608-9, 2958
Kuskanook, wharf, 3979
Labour. See also Building Trades Conference; Housing; Immigration; Industrial Disputes; Shipbuilding; Returned Soldiers; Unemployment Alleged combines, 4551
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INDEX-1921 Ixxvll
[Stage Direction]
Labour-Con.
Bolshevism, pamphlet, 4548 Canadian Government Merchant Marine, wages, 1921
Civil Service, prevailing rates, qu. 3089 Conditions in Great Britain and United States, 408
Discontent and unrest, 3439 Department
Emergency relief, 4535 Employment offices, 2852, 4363 Estimates, 4170, 4535 Draper, Mr. P. M., 1632, 1637 Fair wage clause, 1910, 2955, 4545 Germany, cost in, 4425, 4428 Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, 4549-52
International Conference at Washington, 544
Status of Canada, 2629 Unemployment insurance, 4547 Washington and Geneva, conventions and recommendations, 4041 Women workers, 4547 League of Nations, 4547 Manual labourers. See Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill
Mathers Commission, 232 Minister in Senate, criticism of, 1154-5, 1162, 1169, 4544
Moore, Mr. Tom, 1627, 1632, 1636 National Advisory Council, 4363 National Catholic Labour Unions, 1625, 3584
Chicoutimi Convention, 1626 Letter of Minister in Gazette, 1642 Minister of Labour and, 1625 Platform of, 1627 Wright, Mr. A. A., letter of, 1647 National Industrial Conference, 2101, 4549 Railways, and, 1179, 1190, 1587. See also that title
Shipbuilding, Government, 1273, 1727, 1889, 1897, 1902, 1909, 1974 Strikes
Cape Breton in, 3528 Grand Trunk, 230 Number of, qu. 569 Peterborough, 3549 Winnipeg, 3359, 3360, 3560 Trades and Labour Congress, platform of, 1634
Unemployment relief, 4535. See also Unemployment
Wages and prosperity, 3514 Women workers-overtime, 4547 Labour Gazette, 1155 Lachine Canal. See Canals Ladysmith, wharf, 3980
Lafleche, Col. See Purchasing Commission
Lafortune, Mr. D. A. (Jacques-Cartier) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 292; tribute to late Mr. Gladu; the debate reviewed, 292; Mr. Gauthier, 293; the amendment; Government's mandate executed; Prime Ministers' Conference, 294; Government in danger when it turns to Opposition for help; new name of Government party, 294; change of Government in 1896; issues of the election; promises made and kept; Manitoba school question: St. Lawrence river channel; revising barristers; contracts, men's wages; deficits; Sir Wilfred Laurier; the tariff, 296; reciprocity, 297; things the Liberals will do when returned; Georgian Bay canal; bridge between Vaudreuil and Ste. Anne, 298; will demand accounting; Quebec not isolated but badly represented, 299; widening of Victoria bridge; bridge at Longueuil; tobacco growers, 300: sugar beet industry, 301;
Automobile theft, 3915
Budget, 3669; historical and political review, 3669-70; Mr. Bourassa, 3671; Laurier administration; prosperity of manufacturers and agricultural interests under Liberal Government, 3673; Post Office Department-deficit, 3674; Lachine canal bridge, 3675; immigration of French Canadians to United States, 3675; protection of tobacco growers, 3676; Ville Emard tunnel, 3677; bridge at Ste. Anne's-Vaud-reuil, 3677; bridges in Jacques Cartier county; Georgian Bay canal, 3678: Military Service Act, 3678; Liberals returning to Opposition after war, 3679; Judges' salaries, 3680 Criminal Code Arndt. Bill, 3910-32 Lachine canal bridge, 3675, 4308 La Salle-road repair, 4313-33 Perrot Island bridge, qu. 576, qu. 603 Pointe Claire, wharf, 4312 Three Card Monte, 1858
" Lake Champlain ", icebreaker, 1985
Lake Freights, 3371. See also Canals; Great Lakes-St. Lawrence; Transportation
Lake of the Woods and Other Waters, 3903. See also Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill
Lake of the Woods Control, International Joint Commission, 1176, 1233
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[Stage Direction]
lxxix
Lapointe, Mr. Ernest-Con.
Address-Con.
war mandate used for other purposes, 458; new Administration without public endorsation; origin of National Liberal and Conservatice party; no mandate given in 1917 to present Government, 459; withdrawal of Ministers who gave prestige to Administration; sincerity of Liberals who support Government, 460; Government no longer in harmony with public opinion; byelection, 461; the Government's majority, 463; Sir Thomas White; Sir [Herbert Ames; constitutional duty of Government; British precedents, 464; Imperial conference, 467 Alcohol, tax on, 3705
Ames, Sir Herbert, resignation, 464, 1296, 1310
Business of the House
Estimates on Thursdays and Fridays- Rule 17C-958, 1073, 1218, 1385, 2103-4, 4544
Canadian Nationals Definition Bill, 769 Canadian National Railways Board of directors, 1605 Canadian Representation in the United States, 2429 Cattle embargo, 727
Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill, 2779, 4487-90 Religious holidays, 4487-90 Civil Service (res. Sir Sam Hughes) Political Patronage, 800; census commissioners and enumerators, 800; Judges, 801; commissions, 802 Closure, 2025
Criminal Code Arndt. Bill, 3907 Customs Tariff, 1907, Amdt. Bill Imported goods-marking, 3939-41 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (Prohibition plebiscite) 310 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4246-50 Nomination paper, 4246 Revising officers, 4250 French Trade Agreement, 2137-8, 2152 Harbours and Rivers; estimates, 3977-80 High Commissioner's Office, 2437 Immigration Act Amdt. Bill-(Deportation) 1497, 1858
Imperial Mineral Resources Bureau, 2165 Interim Supply, 2010-11; 2101-4 Judges
Judicial District of Quebec, 1081-2 Justice Department
Counsel employed, 1076 Lake of the Woods Control Board Bill, 2033 Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4210
Lapointe, Mr. Ernest-Con.
League of Nations, contribution to, 2357-67 Maisonneuve and Gaspe representation-, 2314, 2342
Marine estimates, length of debate, 1988 Minister of Labour, 4544 National Catholic Labour Union, 1625, 3584 National Industrial Conference, 4549 Naval policy, 4023
Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3891 Order, point of, word of member should be accepted, 1641
Parliament buildings, 3994, 4075-8 Inscription on tower, 4544 Polish battalion for service in French army, 4060
Prime Minister's Conference, 2505, 2637-67 Naval defence-contribution of Dominions to, 4256 Privilege
Alleged statement of Mr. Davidson regarding Liberal leadership, 2443 Correction of report in Ottawa Journal, 477
Explanation of remarks on Dominion Elections Bill, 4543
National Catholic Labour Unions, 3584 Provinces as traders, 3706 Purchasing Commission, 2015 Negative motion, 2019 Quebec riots, 1506
Railway Department employees, 1654 Representation in Parliament, 1307 Revenue from duty on wines, 2711 Soldiers' pensions, insurance and re-establishment, 4055-60
Laporte, Sir Hormidas, 1609-10,' 4315. See also Canadian National Railways Business interests, 3610
La Presse, 3217
Canadian Government Merchant Marine, criticism, 1709 Lord Atholstan, and, 3248 Yamaska by-election-Mr. Mondou, 3251
La Rochelle, Mr. M. G., 799. See also Civil Service; Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill
La Salle road, 4313-33
L'Assomption Experimental Station, 918, 946
Latchford, Mr. Justice, payments to, qu. 1500
" Laurentian ", Government steamer, qu. 1348, 1863
Laurentide Pulp & Paper Company, 3049
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Laurier, Sir Wilfrid, 3670. See also Address; Budget; Prime Ministers' Conference Imperial Conferences, and, 3431-34 South African War, 1527 Tariff, 3614, 3642
Laval University. See Research
Lavigueur, Mr. Henri E. (Quebec County) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 280; congratulations to Prime Minister; the French language; demand for general election; changed attitude towards Quebec; unfulfilled obligations to city of Quebec; equipment for Transcontinental railway; grain elevators, docks, workshops; Great Northern and Lake St. John railways; St. Charles river dam; the Quebec riots of 1918, 282 Canadian National Railways Directors, 4315
Quebec bridge-highway, 4333 Civil Service bonus, 2112-13 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 686 Harbours and rivers, estimates, 3977 Income tax, 2106 Marine estimates, 1987 National Catholic Labour Unions, 1649 Park St. Charles Company, proposed payment to, 4575 Post Office
Fiset, Mr. Michel, 963, 4523 Loretteville, 4523 Quebec elevator, 282, 1443 Quebec-Loretteville line, 4328 Shipbuilding, 1971
Telegraph line, Loretteville-St. Gerard, 4539
Lavoie, Mr., and Canadian National Railways, 1659, 1670
Law Library, Canadian, 1090
Law Stamps, 1090
Lawyers. See Canadian Bar Association; Justice Department
League of Nations, 97, 110, 125, 157, 164, 186, 188, 195, 204, 227, 229, 237, 247, 285, 357, 400, 435, 474, 2629-50-52, 2789, 3157, 3205. See also Canadian Nationals Definition Act; Prime Ministers' Conference; Permanent Court of International Justice
Ames, Sir Herbert, 464. See also that title
Article X, 158, 1967 Elimination of, qu. 575 Assembly, 164, 436, 2629, 2710, 543 Canadian representatives, 188, qu. 602, 785
League of Nations-Coti.
Assembly-Con.
French .Canadians unrepresented, 552 Request for papers, 188 Aviation, 3782
Burnham, Dr., case of, 1521. See also that title
Canada's participation, 519 Canadian Nationals, 397. See also that title Constitutional questions, 113 Council, 2709
Expenses, Canada's share, qu. 1235, 2356 Labour, 4547. See also that title Nauru Island, 4255, 4541 Permanent Court of International Justice. See that title
Permanent Secretariat, maintenance, 2356
.Leases of Federal Oil Lands. See Oil
Lecours, Mr. A. J. See Quebec Riots
Leduc, Mr. J. Alfred (Westmount-St. Henry) Budget, 3463. Comparison of present with Liberal administration; Government economy in expenditure necessary, 3464; methods of taxation, 3465; income tax, 3465
Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3882 Public buildings, Nova Scotia, 2770
Lee-Enfield Rifle, 2783-7. See also Militia; Ross Rifle
Leeds
Status of member for, 464, 1294, 1326. See also White, Sir Thomas Resignation of member for, 1619 Vacancy, 1293
Legal Responsibility. See Quebec Riots
Leger, Mr. A. T. (Kent, N.B.)
Agricultural publications, 1074 Beef production, 1039
Cold storage-delegation from Maritime Provinces, 1038 Dairying, 1036 Dredging, 3982 Fruit growing, 1041 Harbours and rivers, 3990 Lightkeepers' salaries, 1994 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3759 Partridge Island quarantine station, 2206-14
Public Works-transfer of district engineer's office from Chatham, 4081-5 St. John harbour, 4078
Sheridan, Mr. John, resignation and reinstatement of, 1499,	2173, qu. 2618,
Veterinaries in New Brunswick, 1050


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Lemieux, Hon. Rodolphe (Maisonneuye; Gaspe)
Address In reply to Governor General's Speech, 177; Mr. Mowat; platform of Liberal Convention of 1919; Speech of Mr. Gauthier a " degrading incident ", 178; the amendment; Government possible only with consent of governed; the "Khaki" election in England; Balfour administration, 178; no general election for ten years; issue in 1911; dissolution and election; only issue in 1917 was "Win the War"; that election a "sham" and "official debauchery"; tariff, 181; coalition illogical after the war; Cabinet changes; distinction between Tory and Liberal, 182; justification of amendment; Imperial Conference, naval defence; British foreign policy; Canada will never surrender rights; Government without mandate to discuss naval defence; organic change in constitution, 183; Canada a nation? Right denied to conclude commercial pact; consular agents, 184; Ambassador at Washington, 185; Chicago Drainage Canal; levels of the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence river; League of Nations; increasing desire for national unity, 187 Air Board, 3778 Archives, provision for, 2949 Arctic expedition, 4106 Ascension Day, adjournment, 2688 Bankruptcy Act Arndt. Bill, 2916 Belgian Immigration, 4128 Berry boxes, 4116 Bertrand, Mr. Joseph Tetu, 4079 Brunelle, Sergt. Major N., 1518 Budget, 3241. Tariff Commission; free trade and protection, revenue, raising of, 3242; income tax; two normal periods of recent history, 1879-1896, 1896-1911, comparison of, 3243; British preference, establishment of, 3244; relations with the United States, 3245; benefits of Liberal administration, 3245; war loans, debts and deficits, 3246; a free press, 3247; naval and military expenditure, 3248; vigorous policy of immigration and land settlement, 3249; mining industry; attitude of Quebec, Tamaska by-election, 3250 Burnham, Dr., and Serbian Government, M„ 1520, 1528
Business of the ^House, 1851
Morning sittings, prorogation, 4338-40 Previous debate, 3627
Lemieux, Hon. Rodolphe-Con.
Business of the House-Con.
Wednesday evening adjournment, 1833 Canada Temperance Act Bill Costs of litigation, 4385 Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 1557, 2254-7
Canadian dollar in the United States, 3087 Canadian Government Merchant Marine, 1286
Canadian National Railways Deficit-Mr. J. Lambert Payne, 3017 Foremen of engines, qu. 1673 St. Hyacinthe shops, qu. 2821 Special Committee, reference to M. (Mr. Meighen) 1774 Train agents, qu. 1349 Canadian Representation in the United States, 2396, 2430
Cattle embargo, 710; motion withdrawn, 766 Chicago Drainage Canal, 185, 1851, 2225 Chinese Immigration Act Amdt. Bill, 3827-9 Civil Service Bonus, qu. 901, 1176
Griffenhagen and Associates, 799, 4555.
See also under this title, Post Office Outside Service, qu. 2820 Res. (Sir Sam Hughes) Political Patronage in, 798; Liberal principles; Civil Service Commission; competitive principle; worries of patronage system; experience in England, United States and India; Hon. Sydney Fisher; confidence in Commissioners; Arthur Young and Company; Griffenhagen and Associates, 799 Reorganization, 4555
Superannuation, increase of allowances, 2112
Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2855-71, 425860, 4280-88, 4466-86 Religious holidays, 4485 Returned Soldiers, 4258-60 Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 2490-2; 4275
Copyright Act Amdt. and Consolidation Bill, 3838-49 Customs Minister of
Letter to French Purchasing Commission, 3079
Private business connections, 3079, 3080 Montreal port" officers, 3086 Dairy Products Grading Bill, 4448 De Martigny divorce, 3767-71, 4008, 4203, 4477
Destruction of documents. See also under this title Printing Bureau
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Lemieux, Hon. Rodolphe-Con.
Shipbuilding-Con.
Speech referred to, 1684 Soldiers pensions, insurance and re-establishment, 4053 Speaker's Chair, 3694
Stony Mountain penitentiary, release of prisoners, 477
Thanksgiving day, date, qu. 2098
Trade with United States, 1481
United States tariff, Canadian duties, 4254
War tax, 4515
Woman suffrage, 4474
Tamaska election
Speech at St. Franqois du Lac, 3528 Unsatisfactory arrangements for, 4534 Young Emergency tariff, 2905
Le Pas wharf, 3975-6
Letter Carriers. See also Post Office
Bonus, 2109-15. See also Civil Service, Bonus
Letter Rate. See Post Office Letters. See Imaginary Letters
Levels, Great Lakes, 186. See also Chicago Drainage Canal; Great Lakes-St. Lawrence Waterway Levis, expropriation of land at, 1846 Libel. See Criminal Code Amendments Liberal Bloc, 3216
Liberal Convention, 1919, 73, 175, 218, 338, 3637. See also Address; Budget Fiscal policy, 3213 Tariff resolution, 3643	'
Library of Parliament
Joint Committee, 110 Joint Librarians' Report, 3 Noise, 4000
Life Assurance Companies. See North American
Life-saving Service, 1990
Lighthouses and Lightkeepers, 1994, 2174 Bonus, 1622, qu. 1623 Signal service, 4040
Lignite. See also Coal, Natural Resources Briquetting plants
Bienfait, qu. 672, 673, 848, 4499 Estevan, 2689
Conservation Commission, 3965 Utilization Board, qu. 672, 673, 1269, 4499
Lindsay
Arsenal, 2782 Wharf, 2616
Lindsay, General
Oil lands, 1342 Tar sand rights, 671
Linen Yarn, Bounty on, 1389. See also Flax
Liquor. See also Alcohol; Canada Temperance Act; Customs and Excise Dept. Act; Inland Revenue; Prohibition; Special War Revenue Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 2258-9
Canadian Government Merchant Marine, cargoes, 1713, 1715
Export licenses in Saskatchewan, qu. 838 Illicit traffic, 4388	*
Seizure of at Baie St. Paul, qu. 696
Tax on, 3705, 3708
Theft of at Baie St. Paul, qu. 1132
Lira, exchange value of. See Italy
Live Stock, 344, 846, 923, 1116. See also Agriculture; Health of Animals Abattoirs and cold storage, 1125 Accredited Herd, 4506-13 Breeding, aids to, 1117, 1245 Cattle embargo. See that title Corning-cattle purchases, 1624 County fairs and exhibitions, 1123 Dairy herds and cow testing, 1118 Distribution of pure-bred animals, 923, 948 Eggs and poultry, 1122. See also Eggs Farmers' Clubs, 1117 Feed. See that title Guernsey cattle at Nappan, qu. 2686 Health of Animals, 4506-12. See also that title
Marketing, 1039, 1119 Molasses wash for hogs, 3787-3820 Saskatchewan, distribution, qu. 1236 Transportation charges on feed, qu. 2686 Wool grading, 1121
Living Conditions. See Housing
Loan Companies. See also Housing
Loans. See also Address; Budget; Credits; Finance; Housing
Belgium to, qu. 577, qu. 1001, 3379. See also that title
Canadian National Railways, 4131-68, 4288, 4313, 4334
Canadian Northern Railway, 3037 Domestic, qu. 566 European credits, qu. 2622 Foreign, 3286, 3347, 3611 Grand Trunk Railway, 4131-68, 4288, 4313, 4334
Grecian, 2812
Roumanian, and, qu. 564. See also under this head Roumanian
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[Stage Direction]
Maclean, Hon. A. K.-Con.
Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill-Con.
Returned Soldiers-preference, 4492 Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 2490-2502
Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Consular agents, United States, 3792 Consular certificates, 4390 Invoice certificate, 3792, 4389 Fee-who pays? 4390 Proclamation of Act, 4391 Trade agents, 3792 Customs Tariff Act, 1907, Amdt. Bill Imported goods-marking, 3954	
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (Prohibition plebiscite) 307 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4240-5 Naturalization-certificate of qualification, 4240	[DOT]
Dominion Lands Act Amdt. Bill, 4067 Fuel supply problem, 1264 Grain inquiry-remuneration of Commissioners, 3972
League of Nations-Canada's contribution, 2362
Ministers to sit in either Chamber, 1154-9 National Research Council, 2896 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3895 Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Amdt. Bill, 2264-5, 2898-2908 Parliament buildings, 3995-7 Public harbours, 1174, 2228-30, 2556 Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act Amdt. Bill, 2482-6
Unanimous consent, 1173
War Times Election Act, 322, 4240
Maclean, Mr. W. F. (South York)
Canadian Nationals Definition Bill, 769 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 3113 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 747 Hudson Bay Railway, 985, 996 National railways and telegraphs-Government business, 4130 Railways and immigration, 4129 Returned soldiers in Civil Service, qu. 963 Toronto post office, appointments, qu. 734
MacLeod Judicial District, qu. 2344
MacLeod's Breakwater, 4087
MacNab's Island. See Halifax Quarantine station
MacNutt, Mr. Thomas (Saltcoats)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 527; congratulations to Prime Minister; tariff; new Prime Minister but same old policy; position of parties uncertain; fusion; "moderate protec-
MacNutt, Mr. Thomas-Con.
Address-Con.
tion," 528; settlement of soldiers on the land, 529; high prices for seed and stock-low prices for products; suggestions for relief of returned men; housing; exchange, 530; amendments; no confidence in Government, 531 Budget, 3685. Budget a protectionist one; eminent men changing political opinions; Canadian navy, status of officers and men, 3686
Canadian navy, status of officers and men, qu. 3422, 3686
Census appointments, qu. 3260 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4234-5 Naturalization-certificate of qualification, 4234
Hudson Bay Railway-expenditure, qu. 2623
Immigration, 2584
Pre-emptions and purchases of homesteads, qu. 2506
Soldiers' Land Settlement Board, dismissal of Mr. Graham, 2618
MacPhail, Mr. E. S., 1232 McAdoo Award, 1588, 4325 McCallum, Miss Mary P., 3108
McCoig, Mr. A. B. (Kent, Ont.)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 88; reply to Mr. Gauthier- almost identical argument by Mr. his attack on Hon. Mr. Lemieux; anxious to be taken into the Government; almost identical argument by Mr. Gauthier and Prime Minister; election, census, and redistribution, 89; Canadian National Railways; Mr. De Witt Foster, 90; Board of Commerce; profiteering; combines; Tobacco Buyers' Association; agricultural machinery, 91 Agricultural machinery, standardization of parts, 584, Res. 666
Apple exports to Great Britain, qu. 1501 Budget, 3506. Taxation of necessaries of life, 3506; rural mail contractors' remuneration, 3507; agricultural implements, 2508; military expenditure, 3508; Government war scandals, 3508; tractors, 3509
Civil Service, bonus, 2029, 2109, 2115 Experimental farms, 943 Flax industry, 1397
Highway construction in Ontario, 4293-5 Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters, 622 Interior Department-salaries, 1333
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McCoig, Mr. A. B.-Con.
Militia
Annual drill, M. to reduce, 2296 Pensions, 2278
McCrea, Mr. F. N. (Sherbrooke)
Amherst drill hall, 2752
Grand Trunk loan, 4166
Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill, 4348
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4221
Military preparations, 2298
"Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale, 4013
Shipbuilding, 1944
McCurdy, Hon. F. B. (Minister of Public Works)
Bryson-Calumet Island bridge, 3986 Clark's Harbour, public building, 2817 Commons Chamber, temperature of, 1071 Courtenay Bay improvements, 4097 . Dredging, 3982 Drydocks, 3987
Fort Cumberland and Fort Moncton, care of, 4540
Halifax quarantine station, 2754 Harbours and rivers, estimates, 3973-82 Montreal-South shore traffic bridge, 2217 Parliament Buildings, 3992-4001 Partridge Island Quarantine station, 280815	*
Pembroke wharf, 4536-8 Port Hood, wharf, 4104 Public Works Amherst drill hall, 2739 Annapolis public building, 2741 Demobilization, 3989 Engineering Branch, 4080-90 Estimates, 2737-73, 3973 Expenditures, 4102 Nova Scotia, 4086 Return, inquiry for, 3008 St. John harbour, 4078 Telegraphs and Telephones Isle'aux Coudres, 4540 Loretteville-St. Gerard, 4540	[DOT]
McDermand, Mr. S. S. (East Elgin)
Apples, profit on, 1470
Encouragement of fruit-growing, 1469
European corn-borer, 1031
Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 613
McDonald, Mr. Angus (Timiskaming)
Civil Service
Board of Hearing, qu. 2820 Bonus, qu. 3089
Meetings in Government buildings, qu. 3421
Prevailing rates, qu. 3089 Reorganization-Griffenhagen and Associates, qu. 2623
McDonald, Mr. Angus-Con.
Civil Service-Con.
Superannuation, qu. 2820 Whitley Councils, qu. 2820 Judge Snider's report, 3209 Returned Soldiers-civil servants, qu. 3531 Shipbuilding, 1884
Unemployment and immigration, 1377
McGibbon, Mr. Peter (Muskoka)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 154; the amendment; Opposition has no policy and no case against * Government; taxation, debt, railways, repatriation, pensions; unemployment insurance; old age pensions; the tariff; vacillation of Opposition on question of the tariff, 155; the Government's record; war taxation, repatriation, pensions, expenditure, production-election; mistaken-who has not made them? 156; Government justified by its record-redistribution and representation-congratulations to Prime Minister, 157 Agricultural shows, 1242 Automobile theft, 3914
Budget, 3510. Business conditions of country; revenue by taxation; direct and land taxation, 3511; protection and industries, 3512; iron and steel industry; plate glass; pineapples; wire nails and sugar industry, 3513; prosperity and wages, 3514; exemption of farmers, 3516
"Canadian Inventor," 1891 Cattle embargo, 727
Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2829-67, 4478 Criminal Code Amdt. Bill-firearms, 390714
Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Home brewing, 3788 Restrictive legislation, 3790 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (Prohibition plebiscite) 308 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 423941
Revising officers, 3102 Farmers, protection for, 3748 Health Department Report, 1852 Scientific branch, 3134 Highways, construction in Ontario, 4293 Hog cholera, compensation, 1060 Illustration stations and farms in Northern Ontario, 955
Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 618 Military preparation, 2304 National Research Institute, 2895 Ontario timber limits, 3391


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[Stage Direction]
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McGibbon, Mr. Petei-Con.
Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Amdt. Bill, 2264-7, 2901
Convictions under, 3134 Pensions Act Amdt. Bill, 4373 Pensions
Widowed mothers, 634 Record of member for Lunenburg, 1903 Returned Soldiers' Insurance Act Amdt. Bill, 4356
Shipbuilding, 1903, 1904 Trent canal, 2955-65
McGibbon, Mr. Peter R. (Argenteuil) Questions, inquiry as to, 2943 Railway bridges, 1664
McGill Un iversity. See Research
McGilvray, Dr. C. D., 1055
.McIntosh, Mr. J. C. (Nanaimo)
Fisheries-Mr. Justice Ebert's report, qu. 4254
Mclsaac, Mr. James (King's, P.E.I.)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, moved, 5; congratulations to Prime Minister; tribute to Sir Robert Borden; after-war problems and conditions; Canadian Government Merchant Marine, 6; Customs Tariff, 7 Budget, 3397; congratulations to Minister of Finance; Canada's trade; financial position of country, 3398; revenue, raising of, 3399; sales tax; tariff revision, attitude of Opposition on tariff, 3400; Fielding, Mr., former speech on tariff, 3401; Amdt. of Mr. Fielding, 3403	*
Georgetown wharf, 4564 Harbours and rivers, 3990 Highways, expenditure, 4306 Prince Edward Island Railway, 4564
McKean, Mr. Melville, 4083
McKenzie, Mr. D. D. (Cape Breton North and Victoria)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 40; mover and seconder; congratulations to Prime Minister; tribute to leader of Opposition, 40; disappointed in speech of Prime Minister; should place himself in the " hands of the country"; election before redistribution; position of West, 41; quotations from Calgary Albertan and Montreal Gazette; newspaper comment on by-election results, 43; amendment necessary to expression of views; the tariff; wait until report of Tariff Committee of Cabinet produced,
McKenzie, Mr. D. D.-Con.
Address-Con.
44; a government of the " big interests "; restoration of confidence in parliamentary institutions impossible while Government remains in power, 45; position and policy of Liberal party, 46
Agricultural publications, 1075 Alcohol, tax on, 3957
Alderson, Mr. George B., claim for compensation, 2273 Amherst drill shed, 2733 Australia-New Zealand service, 1494 Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill, 2925-9 Budget, 3280. Minister of Militia and military expenditure, revenues and expenditures, 3283; speeches on Government side of House, 3284; luxury' taxes, 3285; unfairness of taxation, 3286; foreign loans; Canadian Northern system borrowings, 3287, 3288; Grand Trunk borrowings, 3291; trade outlets; railway business, handling of; shipbuilding, 3292; combines, Nova Scotia coal, 3295; lack of railway facilities in Cape Breton Burnham, Dr., treatment of by Serbian Government, 1526
Canada Temperance Act, costs, 4381-88 Canadian Government Merchant Marine, shipbuilding, 1280
Canadian Nationals Definition Bill, 778 Ruling of Chairman, 779 Canadian National Railways Management - Information M. (Mr. King) 1210
Operating expenses and receipts, 4316 Special Committee M. (Mr. A. K. Maclean) 1600 Canadian Representation in the United States, 2416 Cattle embargo, 763
Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2781, 2844, 4287
Civil Service bonus, 4120, 2236 Civil Service (Res. Sir Sam Hughes) Political patronage; election officers in North Cape Breton and Victoria; census officials, 832; service overmanned and underpaid, 11,000 dismissed, 25,000 appointed; classification and reorganization, 833; Printing Bureau; Civil Service Commission, 834; patronage and the party system; appointments, 835
Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 4274
Coal supply in Maritime Provinces, 1281
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McKenzie, Mr. D. D.-Con.
Comparative return on Dominion guaranteed and Nova Scotia bonds, 4165 Criminal Code Arndt. Bill, 3912-38 Currency Act Amdt. Bill, 2269 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Invoice certificate, 3806 Fee-who pays? 3807 Preventive service in Victoria county, 4388
Customs and Inland Revenue-payments for overtime, 4123 Customs officers, 3086
Customs Tariff, 1907, Amdt. Bill-imported goods, marking, 3947-55 Dairy products grading, 3760 Delinquent children, 3012 De Martigny divorce, 3766 Destructive insects, 1027, 1032, 1075 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (Prohibition plebiscite) 311 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill 3091, 4243-6
Election officers, disqualification, 4246 Naturalization-certificate of qualification, 4243
Nomination day, 3096 Recount, 3097 Revising officers, 3102 Dominion Lands Act Amdt. Bill, 4066 Flax industry, 1402 Flour, high price of, 1448 Fruit inspectors, location in one county, 1046
Fuel supply problem, 1260 Gas and Gas Meters, Inspection of, Bill, 609, 2944
Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2458-80, 2446
Position, 3321, 4436 Grand Trunk Railway
Coal mines in the United States, 4316 Default of interest, 1498 Loan, 3291, 4152-69, 4315 Portland terminus, 4316 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 695, 738
Immigration, 2584-96 Income Tax Act Amdt. Bill, 4343-55 Ingonish-Macleod's breakwater, 4087 Insect pests, 1027, 1032, 1075 Judges Exchequer Court, 1083 Lake of the Woods Control Board Bill, 2350-5
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4224-6 Lignite, 4500
Migratory Birds Convention Act Amdt. Bill, 2891
McKenzie, Mr. D. D.-Con.
Military Service Act, claim for services, 2807
Montreal Harbour Commission, 2269 National Research Institute, 2703 Naval policy, 4034 Newfoundland railways, 1485 "Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale, 4032-6 North Sydney, removal of Public Works officials, 2817 Nova Scotia judges, 1572 Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Amdt. Bill, 2264-5, 2908
Partridge Island Quarantine Station, 281315
Pension Act Amdt. Bill, 4372 Pensions, widowed mothers, 639, 4372 Permanent Court of International Justice, 2720-33, 3014
Prisons and reformatories, 3011	'
Proclamation-enforcement of Acts of Parliament by, 3758
Public buildings-Nova Scotia, 2736-71
Public harbours, 2229-31
Public Works-Engineering branch, 4083
Purchasing Commission, 1102
Quebec riots, 1511
Reid Newfoundland Company, 1486 Relief of distressed seamen, 4039 Returned Soldiers Insurance Act Amdt.
Bill, 4262 Ross Rifle, 2783-7
Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act Amdt. Bill, 2484
Russian currency, 1072
Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt.
Bill (Ministers and directorships) 659 Sheridan, Mr. John, resignation and reinstatement, 4503-4 Shipbuilding, 1280 Statistics Act Amdt. Bill, 3758 Steamship routes, new, 1494 Welland canal, construction, 2994 West Indies steamship service, 1490 Wharves and breakwaters, Cape Breton, 4103
Wheat Board, loss under, 1461 Witness fees, 3937 McLean, Mr. H. H. (Royal)
Chief Justice, salary of, 1562 Income tax, Chief Justice, 1561
McLennan, Professor, 1428. See also Research McLeod, Late Col Harry, tribute to, 3-4, 153 McMaster, Mr. A. R. (Brome)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 65; congrat ilations to mover


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McMaster, Mr. A. R.-Con.
Address-Con.
and seconder; criticism of speech of Mr. Nesbitt; unemployment insurance; the tariff, 65; Minister of Trade and Commerce and League of Nations; speech of the Prime Minister, 66; right of the Government to carry on- pledged to hold office only during war and demobilization; evidence of the agreement, 67; no difference between parties in desire to win war conditions in 1904 and 1917 not comparable; Brown-Macdonald coalition; National Liberal and Conservative party, 70; Ministry not united on tariff question; position of the Minister without portfolio (Mr. Spinney) 71; election of Minister of Customs; a portfolio for Quebec; tariff attitude of Liberal party, 72; platform adopted at Liberal Convention of 1919, 73; parliamentary institutions on trial-the Prime Minister a usurper; Liberal Unionists elected for war only, 73; fate of Government in their hands, 74 Air Board, 3779-83
Ames, Sir Herbert, resignation, 1301 Automobile theft, 3913 Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill, 2934-9 Bounties on oil, 1387
Budget, 3164. Income tax; League of Nations, 3165; war expenditure; protection of industries, 3166; debt and revenue; exports and imports, 3167; exchange rate; tariff schedule, raising of, 3168; short-sighted uneconomic policy, 3169; sales tax; cocoa, duties on, 3170; public men and private interests; St. John city, representation of, 3172; foreign governments; Ministers soliciting business, 3173; Imaginary letters Business of the House
Estimates on Thursdays and Fridays- Rule 17C, 960 Progress of, 1230
Canada Temperance Act Amdt. Bill Costs, 4377
Pending litigation, 4377-86 Rights of litigants, 4377 Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 2251-9
Canadian Nationals Definition Act, 649, 767 Canadian National Railways Board of Directors, 1667 Questions on order paper, 1763 Special Com., M., (Mr. A. K. Maclean) 1608
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McMaster, Mr. A. R.-Con.
Canadian Northern Railway
Certificates, issue and sale of, qu. 605 Guaranteed bonds, sale of, qu. 604 Canadian, representation in the "United States, 2395 Cattle embargo, 765
Compensation for slaughtered animals, 1062 Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3900, 3913-17 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Purchasing power of European countries, 4430
Valuation of currency, 4430 Valuation for duty, 4412 Customs brokers, payment, 1090 Customs-foreign monetary standards, qu. 1133
Customs Tariff, 1907, Act Amdt. Bill-imported goods, marking of, 3944-54 Delinquent children, 3012 Documents placed on Hansard without being read, 1539
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4247-8 Election papers, 3098 New forms, 3101
Expenditures, curtailment of, 2978
Flax bounty, 1393
Fox breeding, 1428
French Trade Agreement, 2130-39
Fruit growing in Eastern Townships, 1043
Grand Trunk
Equipment trust certificates, qu. 604 Guaranteed bonds, qu. 604 Halifax Shipyards, Limited, 1698 Harbours and rivers, estimates, 3973-8 Health of Animals, diseased herds, 1048 Highway construction in Ontario, 42904302
Imaginary letters, 3173 Good taste, 3174 Immigration, 2572-82
Imperial Mineral Resources Bureau, 4499 Income tax, qu. 3260 Interim supply, 2012
Interior Department, reduction of estimates, 1334
Justice Department, purchasing agent, 1079
Lake of the Woods Control Board Bill1, 2355
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 420424
League of Nations, contribution, 2359-70 Lignite, 4499
Maisonneuve and Gasp6, representation, 2328
Maple Products Act, 1920, Amdt. Bill, 2559 Military preparation, 2295, 2303
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McMaster, Mr. A. R.-Con.
Ministers of the Crown and directorships, 2228
Ministers to sit in either Chamber, 1169 Naval Service, 4022
" Niobe " and "Rainbow", sale, 4013-29 Parliament buildings, 3998 Penitentiaries
Saskatchewan, increase in, 1091 Point of order-irrelevancy, 1066 Post Office Act Arndt. Bill, 2120-22 Prisons and reformatories, 3012 Privy Council, limitation of appeals, 1089 Proportional representation, 1548 Purchasing Commission, 2016 Railway Board and Intercolonial, 1655 Reciprocity agreement with the United States, 2054 Research, -1427 Return, inquiry for, 3008 Returned Soldiers' Insurance Act Amdt. Bill, 4360
Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt. Bill (Ministers and directorships) 25S, 585, 662
Statutory expenditures, 1423 Trent canal, 2953
University professors and scientific research, 1436
McNeil, Archbishop, and Housing, 1137 McPhail, Sir Andrew, 1353-55-60
McQuarrie, Mr. W. G. (New Westminster) Farmers, protection for, 3748 Fisheries of British Columbia, 861 Housing, 1144 Natural resources, 861
Poultry industry in British Columbia, 3750 Unemployment and immigration, 1364
Machinery. See Agricultural machinery; implements
Madrid Postal Conference, 3001
Magdalen Islands
Steamship service, 557, 767
Magill, Dr., 1451, qu. 1624
Magrath, Mr. C. A., and Fuel Supply, 1256
Maharg, Mr. John A. (Maple Creek)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 485; congratulations to Prime Minister-statement attributed to Prime Minister; allegation that farmers in alliance with Bolshevists; what farmers did in the national crisis, Wheat Board, 487-results of discontinuance, 488; platform of Canadian


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Address-Con.
Council of Agriculture, 489; fiscal policy of Great Britain-Government's record-elections; United Grain Growers, sale of agricultural implements; pamphlet attributed to Mr. Cowan, 491; Government supplies purchased in the United States, 492; Canadian manufacturers refuse to sell to farmers' co-operative organizations; Commission to inquire into grain trade, 493; British Columbia apples, 494; the amendment, 495
Agriculture Dept., salaries of officials, 1036 Budget, 3362. Reference to Prime Minister's speech; Mr. Norman P. Lambert and his article, 3363; cream separators and the free list, 3364; protection and Great Britain, binder twine industry, 3365; imports and revenue, adverse balance of trade, 3366; tariff reduction, 3368; home market, 3369; western grain shipments, 3370; freight rates, 3371; implement manufacturing, 3372; sales tax, 3373; railway situation; canal expenditure, 3374 Canadian Government Merchant Marine, West Indies trade, 1913 Canadian Wheat Board, 1449 Flour, cost of, 1450 Fruit inspection in the West, 1043 Government marketing of wheat, 1460 Grain
Chemistry expert, 1228 Commission, 1447, 1462 Overages, 1463 Transportation rates, 999 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 749 Great Lakes, ships on, 1913 Ocean freights, 1936 Magill, Dr., and Agrarian group, 1451 Point of Order-political sagacity, 1066 Resignation of, 4340
Returned soldiers, employment on Welland canal, 3001 Saskatchewan
Co-operative Elevator Company, qu. 391 Militia organizations, 2794-6 Searls, Mr. George, grain inspection, 1445 Shipbuilding, 1920 Steamship subsidies, 1492 Terminal elevators, 1463 Wednesday evening adjournment, 1842 Welland canal, construction, 2999-3003
Mail Bags, repairing of. See Penitentiaries
Mail Contracts, 1823. See also Post Office; Rural Mail
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Mail Contracts-Con.
Ste. Rose de Watford, qu. 3209
White Horse-Dawson contract, qu. 2686
Mail Subsidies, 1485. See also Steamship subsidies
Main Ducks, life-saving station, 1991
Maisonneuve and Gaspe, Representation of, 2247, 2310, 4437
M. (Mr. Edwards) 2314; agreed to, 2343 See also Privileges and Elections
Majority of Votes. See Proportional Representation
Management. See Canadian National! Railways
Mange. See Health of Animals
Manion, Mr. R. J. (Fort William and Rainy River)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 351; congratulations to Prime Minister; Liberal-Unionists not weak-kneed, servile or subservient, " Liberals " and "Conservatives", 352; the tariff, historical alignment of parties on, 353; the Farmers' party and free trade; position of Mr. McMaster; agricultural! and industrial interests; the Government's mandate, 354; demand for election; no criticism of policies, principles or legislation; personal criticisms of Prime Minister and Quebec, 355; representation of French Canadians on Boards and Commissions, Supreme Court; friendship between Quebec and rest of Canada; Military Service Act; sane elements do not want election; the Government's record, 356; Canada's status, League of Nations; no charges against Government; the country prosperous, 357; social conditions; Canada's problems, 358
Alcohol and medicinal preparations, 3731 Budget, 3231. Speech of Mr. Clark (Red Deer) 3231; taxing of necessaries of life, 3232; attitude of Mr. Fielding on tariff; free trade policy in the United Kingdom, 3233; tariff policy for Canada a vital one, 3234; tariff and revenue, 3235; cheap countries; moderate tariff, 3236; carrying trade of Great Britain; adverse balance of trade; Great Britain's exports and imports, 3237; agriculture declining in the United Kingdom; United States manufactures and shipping, 3238; Great Britain suf-
Manion, Mr. R. J.-Con.
Budget-Con.
fering under free trade policy, reciprocity and the Fordney Bill, 3239 Canadian National Railways
Lake Superior Branch and Fort William, 3050
Canadian Representation in the United States, 2414-32 Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill Religious holidays, 4491 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2474 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 682 Macallum, Professor, 1435 Natural resources, Res, 841 Oleomargarine Act Arndt. Bill, 3879; Arndt. 3S86
Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Amdt. Bill,
7, 2903 Manitoba
Grasshopper plague, 1027 Harbours and rivers, 3975 Highways, 4308
List of candidates and votes polled, 1539 Transfer of Natural Resources to. See Natural Resources Manson's Landing, wharf, 39S0 Manufacturers. See Address, Budget, Canadian Manufacturers Association, Customs and Excise, Labour, Trade Commissioners, Unemployment Agricultural implements and United Grain Growers, 418, 491, 3372. See also that title
Maple Products Act Amdt. Bill
M. for leave to introduce: Speaker's ruling, 2150
Res. 2193, 2557; lr„ 2618; 2r„ 2890, 3141, 3720
Maple Sugar, 887, 1047, 1474
Marcil, Hon. Charles (Bonaventure)
Baie des Chaleurs, steamship service, qu. 2506
Bonaventure-Gasp6 mail service, qu. 577 Bonaventure wharves, 3992 Campbellton-Cross Point Bridge, qu. 573, 3987 Ferry, qu. 573 Canadian Nationals, 777 Canadian National Railways
Gaspesian peninsula, train services, qu. 2623
Tourist traffic in Gaspesian peninsula, qu. 2622
Intercolonial-Campbellford train service, qu. 3903
St. Alexis, qu. 2375, qu. 3582
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Marcil, Hon. Charles-Con.
Census commissioners and enumerators, qu. 696
Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill, 4284 Dredging, 3985
Gaspe Railway, qu. 962, qu. 2623 Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters, 608 Marcil, Mr. Joseph, pension, 3903 Marcil, Mr. Louis T., compensation for injuries, qu. 2942, qu. 3531 Metapedia valley highways, qu. 2505 Parliament buildings, 3993-8 Pensions, payment to Messrs. Louis T. and Joseph Marcil, qu. 2942 Quebec, Oriental and Atlantic and Quebec and Western Railways, qu. 573 Quebec salmon net licenses, qu. 1381, 2506
Marcil, Mr. Joseph, qu. 2942, 3903
Marcil, Mr. Louis T., qu. 2942, qu. 3531
Marcile, Mr. J. E. (Bagot)
Canadian National Railways _ Ste. Rosalie-Bagot
Claims between, qu. 571 Disposition of unoccupied land, qu. 572 League of Nations, Canadian representatives, qu. 602
"Marie Lydia," schooner, 1985
Marine. See also Canada Shipping Act; Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Shipping. For vessels, see that title Department Estimates, 2190
Johnston, Mr. Alex., reappointment, 644 Marine insurance, 1703 Salaries, 1617
Shipbuilding, 1683. See also that title Dredging
St. Lawrence Channel, 1991. See also that title	.
Hospitals, 3135. See also Health Life-saving service, 1990 Lighthouses. See that title Montreal Dry Docks and Ship Repairing, Limited, qu. 2191 Navigation Aids to, 1996 Schools of, 1989
Ocean and river service, 1736, 1979 Pilotage, 1999 Shipbuilding. See that title Signal service, 1997 Wrecking plants, 1990 Wrecks, investigation, 1988
Mariners, Sick, care of, 3129. See also (Health
Maritime Provinces
Railway facilities, improvement of, 4516, 4561
Wooden ships, 1711
Marking of Goods. See Customs Tariff Act, 1907, Amdt. Bill Marquis Wheat, 1033 Martin, Mr. Peter F. (Halifax)
Highways-Nova Scotia, 4304-7 Parliament buildings, 3993 Public Works-Engineers' Branch, 4090 Marwick, Mitchell and Company, Auditors, 1278, 1694, 1704, 1724, 1866, 1933. See also Canadian National Railways Massey-Harris Company, 3393, 3496. See also Agricultural Implements Massey, Hon. Mr., Prime Minister of New Zealand, interview with, 3008 Masters and Mates, Examination, 1736 Matane
Illustration station, 947 Wharves, 3992
Meat and Canned Foods Act
Administration of, 1048 Medicated Wines, 3709 Medicinal Preparations, 3709 Medicine Hat. See also House of Commons By-election, 2151 Vacancy, 1174, 1293
Meighen, Right Hon. Arthur (Prime Minister)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 28; mover and seconder of Address; personal and public relations with leader of Opposition; position of the Government; proposed amendment to the Address; right of the Government to retain office, 30; successor to and continuation of preceding government; issue in 1917; Government's duty in regard to war problems not yet done; the Government's right to retain office after principle upon which it was elected has been decided; appeal to people after Armistice, 32; no departure from policy justifying an appeal, 33; by-elections; reasons for the amdt., 35; leader of the Opposition seeking alliance with Farmers' party, 36; where Government stands on tariff; leader of Opposition evades issue, 37; no departure from historic policy proposed; challenge to dissolve Parliament; representation of the West, 38; duty of the Government to carry on;' Opposition invited to make


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Meighen, Right Hon. Arthur-Con.
Address-Oon.
clear and specific statement on Issue to be decided, 39
Agricultural machinery, standardization of parts, 584
Alderson, Mr. George B., claim for compensation, 2274
Amalgamation of departments, 1331 Amendment to Address, 348 Amendments, want of confidence, 1199 Ames, Sir Herbert, resignation of, 478, 1071, 1298, 1300, 1311 Archives, provision for, 2952 Arctic, expedition, 4106, 4113 Ascension Day adjournment, 2688, 2941 Audibility of debates, 1625 Auditor General's report, delay, 903 Bermuda, trade with, 1271 Board of Trade reports, forms in French, 2819, 3320, 3375
Bolsheviki and wreckers, 3451 Budget, 3322. Congratulations to Minister of Finance; revenue and expenditures; Mr. Fielding's amendment, 3323; Farmers' party servile tools and minions of Opposition, 3324; tinplate industry, 3325; Liberal party and free list, 3328; binder twine; Mr. Clark and free trade, 3330; Mr. Fielding's amendment and tariff reduction; protectionist speeches of Mr. Fielding, 3332; Liberal press and protection, 3336; Government's attitude on tariff matters, 3338; Prime Minister's speech at Sherbrooke, 3339; moderate protection the policy for Canada, 3341; United States tariff revision, 3342 Building Trades Conference, 1498, 1556 Burnham, Dr., treatment of by Serbian Government, 576, 1523 Business of the House, 1340. See also under this title, Estimates, Interim Supply Adjournments, 1841
Ascension day, 2688, 2941 Eleven o'clock, 1841 Victoria Day, 3531, 3698, 3738 Agriculture and Justice estimates, procedure, 1074 Announcement, 1073 Closure, notice, of, 1979 Complaint of undue haste, 4450 Delay, 1618
Distinction between Ministerial statement and Arndt, in Supply, 1308 Estimates, lateness of hour, 1330 Estimates on Thursdays and Fridays- Buie 17C, 1074, 1215, 1682, 2103-6, 2887. 4544
Meighen, Right Hon. Arthui-Oon.
Business of the House-Con.
Legislation pending, 2150, 2819, 3972 Monday-Government business, 2148 Non-debatable motions, 1320 Order of, 1618 Procedure, 1345 Prorogation, 4068, 4340, 4451 Public Bills and Orders, 2819
Second reading by consent, 2890 Questions
Inquiry as to, 2943 Subject matter of, 1071 Sittings Long, 897
Morning, prorogation, 4340, 4451 Morning and Saturday, 4451 Saturday, 2818, 2777, 2941 Two o'clock, 3737 Wednesday, 1384 Evening, 1002, 1841 Supply, to-morrow, 1270 By-elections Dates, 903 Medicine Hat, 2151
Tork-Sunbury, 2151. See also this title, Canada Temperance Act Bill Costs, 4386 Damages, 4387
Effect of proposed amendments on plebiscite, 4386
" Having in view the provisions of this Act", 4386
Pending litigation, 4386 Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 563 Canadian Government Merchant Marine, 1290
Insurance of officers and seamen, 4359 Special Com. proposed, 1440 Statement referred to, 1708 Canadian National Railways Amqui station, 1177, 1233 Correspondence
Directors, with, 1004 St. Foy round house, 1502 Lord Shaughnessy's letter, 2503, 2890 Management, Information, M. (Mr. King) 1180
Private ownership, and, 1498 St. Foy round house, 767, 1502 Special Committee, reference to Arndt. (Mr. A. K. Maclean) 1589 Notice of, 1618
Reference to, M. (Mr. Meighen) 1755, 1817, 1803
Arndt. (Mr. Crerar) 1812 Special Committee appointed, 1845 Sully, Que., 1134
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Meighen, Right Hon. Arthur-Con.
Canadian National Railways-Con.
Transcontinental, Winnipeg-Quebec service, 2514
Canadian Representation in the United States, 2378-2431
Cattle embargo, 725, 730, 761, 4543 ' Commission, inquiry, 1072 Chicago Drainage Canal, diversion, 2226 Chief Justice, salary of, 1567 Chippewa Power Canal, 2444 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2776, 2778, 3901, 4485-7
Religious holidays, 4485-7 Returned	Soldiers-preference-provisions recommended by Pensions Com., 4257, 4577 Civil Service
Bonus, 901, 1176; statement, 1233; 2029, 2113-15, 3531
Number of civil servants, names, classification, 4255
Religious holidays, 1384, 2776, 4485-7 Superannuation, 2820 Allowances, 2112
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston, reported statement, 2567
Conservation Act Repeal Bill, 3958-70 Cost of living, 4551
Crerar, Mr., and attitude on shipbuilding, 1978
Customs, Minister of, private business relations, 3081
Dairy Produce Grading Bill, 3760 Daylight saving in Ottawa, 2776, 2800 Debate
Motion to adjourn by member, closing discussion, 999
Debates, translation of French speeches, 701
Deceased members, tributes to, 3, 152 Destruction of documents, 1625, 2943, 2953, 4558. See also under this head Judge Snider's report
District Engineer's office at Edmonton, 4543 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (Prohibition plebiscite) 150, 152 Motion to vary order of House, 152, 242 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 2944 Dominion Parks, 1343 Editorial Committee, 4558 Empire Cabinet, proposed, 1385 Estimates. See also under this title Business of the House Opportunity for studying, 1290 Scrutiny of by Special Com., 1503 Supplementary, inquiry, 4070 Extradition Treaty with United States, 2687
Meighen, Right Hon. Arthui-Con.
Fertilizer Act Amdt. Bill, 2231-4 Foreign trade, 3224
French Trade agreement, 767, 1271, 1351, 1559
Fuel Supply problem, 1268 Special Com. appointed, 1439 Evidence in French, 4251 Gaspe peninsula railway facilities, 2509 German reparation-Canada's claim, 643 Governor General
Address to on retirement, 4433-5 Lord Byng, reported appointment, 4436 Appointment, 4541 Grain inquiry, 1674 Grand Trunk Arbitration, 1498 Correspondence, 1619 Further, tabled, 3738 Progress of, 3321 Revival of, 4436
Grank Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2247, 2346, 2397, 2447-80, 2560-4; Senate amdts. 2777, 2822
Grand Trunk Railway Assistance, 1498 Default of interest, 1498 Directors, 3741
Interest, alleged default of, 1556 Shareholders-return, 3697, 3740 Highway construction in Ontario, 4300 .Homesteads, 1347 Housing, expenditure Loan, 4552 Point of order, 1135
Hudson Bay Railway, M. involving expenditure, 982
Immigration, Restriction of, 1127 Income 'fax Act Amdt. Bill, 2819, 4352 Regulations, 1272 Returns, 2568
Insurance Act Amdt. Bill, withdrawn, 4453 Interim supply, 1682. See also under this title Estimates; Supply Necessity for, 2004 Point of order, 2009, 2010 Procedure under, 1676 Interim Supply Bill, 2101-2116 Interior Department Editors, 1331
Employees, dismissals, 1345 Surveyor General and International Boundary Commissioners, 1343 International Joint Commission. See also under this title, Lake of the Woods Lake of the Woods Control, and, 1072, 1176, 1233, 4172
Judge Snider's report, 1625, 2943, 2951, 2445, 3209, 3697, 3905, 4436-53. See also under this head Destruction of documents


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[Stage Direction]
Meighen, Right Hon. Arthur-Con.
Judges Act Arndt. Bill, 2117 Labour Department Alleged combines, 4551 Bolshevism, pamphlet, 4548 Fair wages, 4545
Industrial Disputes Iinvestigation Act, 4549-52 Minister, 4545
Letter of in Gazette, 1642 Lake of the Woods Control, 1233. See also under this title International Joint Commission Board, 789 Inquiry, 1176
Lake of the Woods Control Board Bill, 2033-36, 2348-55
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 3903, 4171-4226
Correspondence, 4170 League of Nations
Canada's contribution, 2356 Labour, 4547
Maisonneuve and GaspS, representation, 2321-9, 4437
Massey, Hon. Mr., 3008 Ministers to sit in either Chamber, 1157 Ministers of the Crown and directorships, 2228
Musk-ox and reindeer, 4543 National Catholic Labour Unions, 1638 National Industrial Conference, 4549 National- Research Institute, 4555.
Natural resources, adjournment of debate, 894	.
Transfer to western provinces, 1337, 2541-50
Natural Resources Branch, 1343 Naval Service, Capt. Adams' alleged statement, 901
Newsprint, alleged combine, 2099 Northwest Territories Act Arndt. Bill, 3903, 4113 Oil
Leases, 1340, 2377 Surface rights, 583, 666 Oil and Gas permits and leases, 898 Oleomargarine Act Arndt. Bill, 3759, 3889 Ottawa Improvement Commission Act Arndt., 2941
Owens, late Thomas P., Editor of Debates. 258
Park St. Charles Company, proposed payment to, 4574 Parliament buildings Book on, inquiry, 1175 Inscription on tower, 4543 Pension Act Arndt. Bill, 4262, 4361-5
Meighen, Right Hon. Arthur-Con.
Pensions. See also under this title Soldiers; Returned Soldiers Deductions for insurance, 629 Widowed mothers, 632 Polish battalion for service in French army, 4054
Prime Ministers' Conference, 564,	1073,
2504, 2634-42, 3320
Naval defence-contribution of dominions to, 4256
Reported statement of Mr. Churchill. 2567
Printing Bureau. See under this title, Destruction of Documents Privilege
Veniot, Hon. Mr., alleged offer to, 3688. See also under this head York-Sunbury Privileges and Elections Committee, 2373 Proportional Representation, Special Com.
appointed, 1554-5 Quarantine, typhus, 4170 Quebec Steamship Company, 2941 Railway Commission, alleged statements of Chief Commissioner, 2030 Reparations-difficulties between Allied Powers and Germany, 599 Representation in Parliament, vacancies, 1300
Research. See under this title, National Research Institute
Returned Soldiers' Insurance Act Arndt. Bill, 4260, 4356-60
Returned Soldiers. See also under this title, Soldiers Housing, 4362 Relief for, 2688 Review of question, 4361 Special Committee, 732 Unemployment, 4361-4 Returns, inquiries for, 3321
Loans to Greece and Roumania, 3009 Motions for in general terms, 1555 Sheridan, Mr. John, resignation and reinstatement, 1499, 1555 Riding Mountain Park, 1343 Roumania, Joan to, 1441 Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt. Bill (Ministers and directorships) 657, 2228
Senate representation in Saskatchewan, 2567
Shipbuilding, 1290, 1976 M. that further consideration be postponed, 1979
Soldiers' insurance, pensions and reestablishment, 4054 Speaker's Chair, 3692
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[Stage Direction]
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Military Preparation, 2294, 2305
Military Service Act, 320, 356, 2807, 3200, 3678. See also Quebec Riots Employment of Mr. Stewart, qu. 2028 Exemption of farmers, 3516, 3592
Military Stores Shed, Cartier Square, qu. 3208
Militia and Defence
Annual drill, 2294, 3405
M. (Mr. McCoig) to reduce amount, 2296 Armouries for public meetings, 901 Associations, grants to, 2439 Cadet services, 2296 Command pay, 2290 M. (Mr. Power) to reduce amount, 2292 Department
Anderson, Mr. A. H., qu. 735 Ashley, Sergt. T„ qu. 3090 Black, Mr. A. H., qu. 755 Brackenbury, Mr. G. B., qu. 735 Central registry, 2281 Chief Engineer and Controller of Military lands, 2241
Douglas, Mr. ,11. S., dismissal of, qu. 735, 2246, 2277 Employees Female, 2286 Increase in number, 2014 Quebec, in, dismissal, 2237 Retirement of, 4267-70 Engineer services, 2439 Permanent force, strength, 2278, 2797, 2800
Photographers, 2245 Record office, 2241, 2278-80 Salaries, 2234, 2275
Separation Allowance and Assigned Pay Branch, 2281 Supplies, 2239, 3244-5 Sale of to Roumania and Greece, 2245, 3564
Transfer to other departments, 1098 Survey Division, 2243, 2284 Topographic Surveys, 2806 Estimates
M. (Mr. Pedlow) to reduce amount, 2287S
Highland regiments, 2307 Lee-Enfield rifle, 2783 Military and civilian caretakers, qu. 4340 Military district No. 12, 2279, 2792-97 Ordnance Arms and Lands, 2441, 2781 Permanent Force, 2278, 2797, 3279, 3405 Pensions, 2278, 2236 Strength, 2235
Purchasing Commission and Supplies, 2239 Ross rifle, 2783 .
Militia and Defence-Con.
Royal Military College, 2802 Staff Pay, 2787
Reduction, 2234-46, 2282 Warlike stores, 2807
Milk, Prices of, 3197
Milk River, water rights, qu. 2099
Milk-Testing, 1037
Mill Feed, 1126. See also Feeds, Live Stock
Milling Industry, 3543, 3544
Mines and Minerals, 2141, 2162, 3250. See also Coal; Geological Survey; Natural Resources; Lignite Research Alberta penitentiary mining rights, 1092 Conservation Commission, 3965 Development of, 841 Federal mining legislation, 871 Imperial Mineral Resources Bureau, 4498 Machinery, duties on, 373 Returned soldiers, prospecting, 871 Zinc deposits of Gaspg, 876
Minister of Customs and Excise, 3785
Ministers and Directorships, 258, 585, 650 2228. See also Senate and House of Commons Act Arndt. Bill
Ministers
Cabinet, and Post Office Department, qu. 1349. See also Blondin, Hon. P. B.; Minister of Labour; Postmaster General
Personal business, 3079, 3173-6, 3612 Proposed right to sit in either Chamber M. (Mr. Lemieux) 1152; withdrawn, 1173 Upper Chamber in, 1154
Minority Representatives. See Proportional Representation
Missals. See Special War Revenue Act Amdt. Bill
Missisquoi Bay, net fishing, qu. 570 Missisquoi County
Census commissioners, qu. 1132. See also Census
Income tax forms in, 1176
Mitchell, Mr. A. J., 1609-10. See also Canadian National Railways Business interests of, 3610
Model Villages. See Housing
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Morphy, Mr. H .B.-Con.
Civil Service Retirement Act Arndt. Bill, 4119
Copyright Amendment and Consolidation Bill, 3841
Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3923-31 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Invoice certificate, fee, 4393 Molasses wash for hog feed, 3787 Trade agents, 3788-95 United States consular service, 3796 Customs Tariff Act, 1907, Amdt. Bill Imported goods, marking of, 3952 Customs officer at Listowel, 3084 Debates, Official, distribution of, 2223 Entomology Bureau, 1025 Fuel Supply Problem, 1265 Geological survey, 2144-7 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2457 Great War Veterans, qu. 455 Highways
Construction in Ontario, 4304 London-Stratford-Sarnia, 4307 Hog cholera-Alderson claim, 1063 Illustration farms and stations in Ontario, 952
Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 615 Linen yarn, bounty on, 1389 Maisonneuve and Gaspg, representation, 2331
Militia-photographers, 2245 Military districts, 2788-9	.
Polish battalion for service in French Army, 4056
Rulings and statements as Chairman Estimates, vote to be dealt with as a whole, 2750
Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt.
Bill (Ministers and directorships) 654 Stratford customs office, 3085 Trade agents and commissioners, 1475-77, 3460, 3788-95
Tuberculosis and pleuro-pneumonia in cattle, 1051
Wednesday evening adjournment, 1835 Wheat market, 1452
Morrison, Mr. J. J., rural depopulation, 403 Mortgages. See (Housing
Motor Cars, Theft of. See Criminal Code . Amendment Bill
Mounted Police. See Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Moving Pictures. See Trade and Commerce
Mowat, Mr. H. M. (Parkdale)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 171; Liberal-Unionists; conditions of 1864 and 1917; George Brown; no difference in principle between parties, 172; municipal and common rights v. rights of corporations; temperance legislation; woman suffrage; Liberal measures sponsored by Government; nationalization of railways; the game of politics, 173; amendment; election; leader of the Opposition wants power; ambitions that came to naught, 174; no reason for want of confidence vote; the tariff; policy of Sir Wilfrid Laurier; tariff resolution of Liberal Convention of 1919, 175; "substantial reductions",. 176; National Liberal and Conservative party; Canada's status as a nation, 177
Armistice Day and Thanksgiving, 2555 Armistice Day Bill), 2618 Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill, 2926 Canada Temperance Act Costs, 4378
Rights of litigants, 4378 Commercial agents in the United States, 1473
Copyright Amdt. and Consolidation Bill, 3834-48
Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3931-36 Probation of Offenders, 2097, 3931 Dogs, docking of, 3936
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. (Prohibition plebiscite) 311 Fortifications at Kingston, 969 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2465 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 687 Housing, 1148
Judges Act Amdt. Bill, 3010
Lake of the Woods Control Board Bill,
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4225 Ministers to sit in either Chamber. 1167 North American Trust Company, 1127-8, 1130
Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3865 Parliament buildings, 4000 Private Bills, extension of time, 1625 Probation of offenders, 2097, 3931 Railway Commission-alleged statement of Chief Commissioner, 2029 Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt. Bill (Ministers and directorships) 595
M ulgrave
Ice tenders, qu. 963
Mulgrave-Canso Steamship services, 1496
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Municipal Cold Storage Plants, 1040
Murdock, Mr. James, 3603-4. See also Board of Commerce
"Muriel W.", steamer, 1990
Murphy, Hon. Charles (Russell)
Ambassador at Washington, qu. 671 Budget, date of, qu. 903 Budget, 3635; comment o\. speech of Mr. Stevens, 3C36; Liberal Convention and Liberal platform, 3637; Mr. Crerar and York-Sunbury election, 3637; Budget born of necessities of Government, 3639; burden of taxation, 3640; Tariff Commission, 3640; speeches of TIon. Mr. Guthrie and Hon. Mr. Ballantyno, 3641; Hon. Mr. Calder and the Tariff, 3644; Canadian Manufacturers Association-Mr. G. M. Murray, 3645; newspapers-manufacturers, editorial control of, 3646
Building Trades Conference, 149S Business of the House Saturday sittings, 2941 Canadian Nationals Definition Act, 771, 2032
Canadian National Railways Employees remuneration, qu. 1673, 1737 Lord Shaughnessy's letter, 2890 Management, Information - M. (Mr. King) 1198 Special Committee M. (Mr. A. K. Maclean) 1573 M. (Mr. Meighen) 1806 Chief Electoral Officer's reports, qu. 577 Chippewa power canal, 2444 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2779, 2833-70, 2940
Returned soldiers, 4260 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill, foreign consular service, 3808-3995 Debates, translation of French speeches, 702
De Martigny divorce, 3765 Empire Cabinet proposed, 1385 Entomology

increase in item, 1024 Expeditionary force-Canteen funds, qu. 1133
Fox-breeding, 1430
French Trade Agreement, printing, 13S0 Governor General, suggested appointment of Lord Burnham, qu. 599 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 1498 2448-77 Grand Trunk loan, 4135-7 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 751 Griffenhagen and Associates, 1555. Sec also under this title, Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill
Murphy, Hon. Charles-Con.
Hickman, alleged deportation, qu. 574 Highways
Construction in Ontario, 4295 Hull-Wakefield, 3034 Imaginary letters, 3261 Immigration, 2570-5 Mental defectives, 3583 Officials, 3060
Woman supervisor, position, 3058, 3062 Imperial Conference, 1073 Income and Business Profits Taxes, qu 837
Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 609 Interim Supply, granting of, 2007 Judge Snider's report, 4436 Lake of the Woods Control Board Bill, 2034-36
Lord Byng, appointment, 4541 Luxury tax, qu. 600 Macallum, Professor, 1431 Massey, Hon. Mr., 3008 National Gallery, 2684 National Research Institute, 2962-2708 Naval Service, Capt. Adams, alleged statement, 901
Parliament buildings, 4071-6 Pension Act Amdt. Bill, 4373 Prime Ministers' Conference, reported statement of Mr. Churchill, 2567 Printing Bureau
Employees in, qu. 1131 Extension to building, qu. 1383 Quebec riots, 1510 Questions, inquiry for, 1502 Research Council, industrial chemistry, 1434
Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act Amdt. Bill, 2481-2
Royal Canadian Mounted Police at Thor-old, qu. 574
Royal Military College, 2805 Trade with Russia, 1003 Veniot, Mon. Mr., 3637, 3688 Welland canal, obstruction, 1990
Murray, Mr. G. M.
Editorial control of newspapers, 330, 442,
[DOT]	2622, 3645-7
Murray Bay public works, qu. 604
Murray Bay-Tadoussac Steamship Service,
M. (Mr. Casgrain) for papers, 1528, 1822, 1825, 1930
Musk Ox and Reindeer. See Reindeer Musselman, Mr. J. B., 3382


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Myers, Mr. E. T. W. (Kindersley)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 388; Amendment to amendment (Mr. Campbell); congratulations Prime Minister; tariff; policies of the parties; alliance between Liberals and National Progressives; reform of Senate; freight rates, 389; Canadian National Railways; coal; the grain trade; Wheat Board, 390; Royal Commission to inquire into marketing; shipment through Canadian ports; no urgent demand for election; redistribution, 392
Canadian Wheat Board, qu. 340 Income tax collections in Saskatchewan, qu. 2028
Nadeau, Dr., 3133
Nagle and Wigmore, 3077, 3172. See also Customs, Minister of
Nantel, Hon. Mr., 3019
Napier, Mr. J. J., qu. 1624
Nappan, Gurnsey cattle at, qu. 2686
"Narbethong," steamer, 2175
Narcotic Drugs. See Opium and Narcotic Drugs
National Advisory Council, 4363. See also Research
National Assets. See Fuel Supply Problem; Natural Resources
National Battlefields Commission
Fort Cumberland and Fort Moncton, 4540 Fortifications of Quebec, 967
National Catholic Labour Unions. See Labour
National Dairy Council, 1126
National Expenditures, Committee on, 1835. See also Estimates
National Gallery', 2684
National Industrial Conference, 4549. See also Labour
National Liberal Convention. See Liberal Convention
National Parks, 4495. See also Dominion Lands and Parks
National Policy, 3220, 3569. See also Address; Budget
National Progressive Party. See Progressive
National Railways. See Canadian National Railways
National Railways and Shipping, Special
Com., reference to
M. (Mr. Meighen) 1755; names substituted, 2776. See also Canadian National Railways
National Research Institute, 886, 2566, 2688, 2892, 4555. See also Research Council Act Amdt.
Annual report, 2897 Bequests and donations, 2896 Bursarships and studentships, 2894 Co-ordination, 2892 Council, 2892
Discoveries and inventions, 2895 Establishment of, 886
Materials, investigation and standarization, 2893
Trade agents, 2893
National Transcontinental Railway. See
Canadian National Railways
Natural Gas, 879. See also Gas; Oil and Gas
Natural Resources. See also Coal; Fuel Supply problem; Mines and Minerals; Research
Aerial explorations and surveys, 3776 Canadian hinterland, 852 Conservation Commission, 3961 Control of, 857
Development of, Res. (Mr. Manion) 841; neg, 894
Drainage of flooded areas, 871 Intelligence Bureau, 1343 Investigation of, 845 Mackenzie Basin, 879 Maple industry, 887
National Research Institute, 886. See also that title Ownership of, 879 Timber and minerals, 893 Western provinces, of, 3555 Transfer to, 1336-40 Demand for, 484 M. (Mr. Campbell) 2519-84
Naturalization, 781. See also Canadian Nationals; Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill
Naturalization Act, 1914, Amdt. Bill (Aliens
who served in Allied Armies) lr., 2441
Nauru Island, phosphate deposits, 4541, 4255
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New Brunswick
Minister of Public Works and York-Sun-bury election, 3480. See also Veniot; York-Sunbury
Newcombe, Mr. E. F., and Grand Trunk Arbitration, qu. 1002
Newfoundland
Sick mariners, 3139
Steamship service, 1485, 1686, 1712
Newport News, Canadian vessels at, 1689, 1722
New York
Immigration officers at, 3131 Loans on Canadian bonds, 3288 Shipping pool, 1713
New Zealand
Steamship service, 1493 Trade with, 1223
Newspaper Comments on Shipbuilding. See
Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Montreal; Press; Shipbuilding
Newspapers. See Press
Newsprint, alleged combine, qu. 2099
Nickel, Coinage, 2160 Five cent coin, 2160, 2269
Nicholson, Mr. Donald (Queen's, P.E.I.) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 556; congratulations to Prime Minister; speech of Mr. Cannon; the Government's mandate; soldiers' vote in 1917, 556; the charge of coercion; majorities of Mr. Wigmore and Mr. McCurdy; Prime Minister's Truro speech; Canadian Mercantile Marine, 557; Magdalen Islands, Prince Edward Island; revenue, expenditure and taxation; highway expenditure in Nova Scotia; Mr. Maclean, Halifax, 558; revenue requirements; Mr. Gauthier; Quebec and other provinces, 559; stand by the national policy; toleration, 560
Highways, Prince Edward Island, qu. 2345
Nicholson, Mr. George B. (East Algoma) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 283; congratulations to Prime Minister; a unique debate; no constructive criticism by Opposition; " bloodless neutrality "; programme of legislation; unemployment insurance and old age pensions, 284; League of Nations; the tariff; the Government's mandate, 285; unrest amongst busi-
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4icholson, Mr. George B.-Con.
Address-Con.
ness men and soldiers, 286; suggestion that leader of Opposition should form Government a " flagrant insult " to returned men; election, 287; policy of Opposition; Farmers' party, 288; United Grain Growers; stock feed; attitude towards farmers and milling industry; Mr. Norman Lambert, 289; flour, agricultural implements, profits -Mr. Rice-Jones; payments to newspaper for educational propaganda; campaign of "blatant hypocrisy", 290; increased representation for Quebec; the Prime Minister and Quebec-harmony, not discord, 291 Budget, 3299. Flotation of Canadian National Railway bonds in New York; foreign loans, 3300; Canadian National Railways; railway merging, 3308 Canadian National Railways Special Com., reference to M. (Mr. Meighen) 1794 Canal tolls, 2975
Dominion Elections Act Arndt. Bill
Foreign-born wives of British subjects, 3103, 3106
Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2565 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 690 Interim supply, reduction of items, 2023 Permanent Court of International Justice, 2797
Railways' and ships, 1730 Research, 1432 Supply-point of order, 2757 Trent canal, construction, 3975
"Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale of, qu. 671, 401036, 4041. See also Naval Service
Nolan Bill, 3008
Non-Confidence Motions, 1184. See also jHouse of Commons, Divisions
Non-Political Operation of Railways. See Canadian National Railways
Norman, Dam. See Lake of the Woods Norris, Hon. Mr., 4198 Norrish, Mr., 1226
North American Trust Company, 1094, 1127.
See Private Bills Discussed
Northcliffe, Lord. See Gulf Pulp and Paper
Company
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North Sydney
Port of, 1282
Public Works-removal of officials, 2817 Terminus, 1487
North West Grain Dealers Association, 277, 297, 379
Northwest Territories Act Arndt. Bill (Council)
lr., 3903; 2r., com., 3r., 4113 Northwest Territories Explorations, 4494 Nova Scotia
Canadian National Railways Freight to certain points, qu. 1620 Coal supplies, 1261, 3295. See also Fuel Supply
Fruit inspectors in, 1041, 1045 Highways, 4304-7
Mines. See Fuel Supply; Great Lakes-St. Lawrence
Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Company, 1611, 3407
Norwegian Boats and coastal trade, 1494 Nursery Plants, fumigation of, 1028, 1031 Oatmeal, tax on, 3735
Oats, 3395 Banner, 1033
Quaker, 2954-76, 3455. See also Grain; Trent Canal
Obregon, General, 1507,
Ocean. See also Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Shipbuilding; Steamship * services
Freight rates, 1936-61 Decline, 1273
Pacific steamship service, 1493 Shipments by United States ports, 1975 Shipping-Government control of, qu. 3530 Trade routes, 1888
Ocean and River Service, 1736, 1979 Ocean Limited, 1800
O'Connor, Mr. W. F., and cost of living, 3548, 3606
Ogilvie, Messrs. D. W., and Company, 1846
Oil. See also Oil and Gas; Natural Resources; Petroleum
Bounties, 1385, 1413. See also Trade and Commerce
Development, 844, 2162-4 Expenditure for discovery, qu. 695 Government regulation, 3539


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INDEX-1921 cv
[Stage Direction]
One-sixth Vote. See Interim Supply
Open Market. See Canada Grain Act
Operation of Railways. See Canadian National) Railways
Opium, imports of, 3130. See also Opium and Narcotic Drugs
Opium and Narcotic Drug Act. See also Health Department Administration of, 3130 Convictions under, 3134
Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Arndt. Bill
Res. 1069, 2263; lr„ 2268; 2r„ ref. to Special Com., 2346; com., 2897; 3009; 3r„ 3009
Report of Special Committee, 2708 Senate amdts. concurred in, 4062 Subjects and Sections discussed:
Failure to pay fine, 2908 Household remedies, 2902 Indictable offence, 2897 Penalty, 2897-2907 Possession, 2903-6
Prescriptions not to be filled more than once, 2897
Sale or gift to minors, 2897 Whipping, 2897
Orders in Council. See also Purchasing Commission
Appointment of representatives to Assembly of League of Nations, 188 Immigration, 2585 Peace Conference, 397
Oriental Immigration. See Chinese
Ottawa
Cartier square, stores shed, qu. 3208 Daly building, rental, 4094 Daylight saving, 2687, 2776 Hunter building, 4094 Lighting roads and bridges, 4090 Noon gun, 4091
Newspapers and shipbuilding, 1925 Parliament buildings, 3992. See also that title
Public buildings, 4101
Rental of buildings in, 3989, 4092-6
The " Reno " of Canada, -4474
Ottawa Improvement Commission Act Arndt. Bill
lr., 2941; 2r„ com., 3r., 3759 Overages. See Grain Owen Sound, wharf, 3974
Owens, the late Thomas P., Editor of Debates, tribute to, 258, 430
Oyster Culture, 2177
Pacaud, Mr. L. T. (Megantic)
Belgium, credit to, qu. 577, qu. 1001 Purchases in Canada, qu. 736 Budget, 3343. Importance of debate; inefficiency of Administration, 3344; extravagance and economy, 3345; control by Parliament of necessary expenditures, 3346; credits to foreign countries; amendment of Mr. Fielding, 3347 Canadian Government Merchant Marine " Canadian Ranger " and " Seigneur ", qu. 1382
Pacific Ocean
Steamship service, 1493 Trade, 3649
Pacific Salvage Company, Limited, 1990
Packing Houses. See Health of Animals; Oleomargarine
Cold storage plants, and, amount collected, 607
Page, Dr., 3133
Paintings, in Senate Chamber, qu. 566
Pairs. See House of Commons, Divisions
Palmerston, Lord, and Don Paciflco, 1522
Panama Canal, Canadian shipments by, 3047
Panet, Mr. L. C., appointment as Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms, 3
Paper, Newsprint. See Newsprint
Papineau, Mr. L. J. (Beauharnois)
Canadian National Railway vessels, qu. 1349
Canadian Postal Guide, qu. 1349 Parliament buildings, furniture, qu. 2192 Staples, Mr. W. D„ qu. 3260 War, adjustment of accounts, Canada-Great Britain, qu. 2191
Parasites. See Destructive Insects
Pardee, Mr. F. F. (West Lambton)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 479; congratulations to Prime Minister; Minister of Militia, chameleon-like change of policy; the tariff red-herring; favoured free agricultural implements in 1914, 479; the Farmers' party, 480; reprisals against the United States; dissolution and appeal; by-elections; the "remnant" of Liberalism, 481; rural and urban representation; resignations of ministers; trust the people, 482	[DOT]
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Pardee, Mr. F. F.-Con.
Budget, 3497. Tariff revision; luxuries tax; Great Britain, 3498; foreign trade; shipbuilding; railways and public ownership, 3499; position of Liberal and Agrarian parties, 3500 Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill, 2840 Civil Service bonus, 2111 Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3908-28 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill, brokers, 4432
Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 743 Harbours and rivers, amdt. 3979 Immigration Act Amdt. Bill, 3826 French language, 3824 Interior Department, draughtsmen, 1334 Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 41774226
Amdt. to 3r., 4226
"Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale of, 4018-32 Representation in Parliament, 1326
Parent, Mr. George (Quebec West) Agricultural shows, 1242 Amherst drill hall, 2739 Annapolis public building, 2764 Boots and shoes, Canadian, 1225 Canadian Nationals Definition Act, 779 Canadian National Railways Agents, 1605
Cancellation of trains, 1004 St. Augustin station, qu. 695, 3018 St. Foy round house, Res. 840, 967, qu. 1501
Correspondence, 1502, 1659 Shawinigan service, qu. 573 Chinese Immigration Act Amdt. Bill, 3829 Compensation for slaughtered cattle, 1050 . De Martigny divorce, 3762-9, 4006 Director of Commercial Exhibits, 1226 Dominion Shipbuilding and Repair Company, qu. 3423 "Druid," steamer, 1984 Experimental farms, hours and pay, 932 Fruit inspection, 1047
Fuel Supply, Special Com., evidence in French, 4251
Highways, amount of vote, 3024 Icebreakers and steamers, repairs, 1979 Immigration Act Amdt. Bill, 3822-5 Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 608 Intercolonial Railway
Work at Charny and St. Foy, qu. 1501 Interior Department, dismissal of employees, 1345
International Customs Tariff Bureau, 1438
Liquor, tax on, 3707
Militia
Dismissal of employees in Quebec, 2237 Surveys division, 2244
Parent, Mr. George-Con.
Montreal Harbour Commission, 2269 National Catholic Labour Unions, 1646 National Research Institute, 2896 "Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale, 4011-13 Pilotage, 1999
Post Office Act Amdt. Bill, 2120-24 Prince Rupert Dry Dock Engineering Company, qu. 3423 Printing, Government, 1439 Quebec riots, 1918, Res. 974, 1503 Railway Commission-jurisdiction, 3017 Railways, law costs, 3015 St. Augustin Station, qu. 695, 3018 St. Lawrence dredging, 1992 Supply-procedure, 3014 Surveyor General and Boundary Commissioners, 1342 Trent canal, 2606-16 Waterpowers, director of, 1346 W^ellamd Canal, construction, 2990-3001 Wrecks, investigation, 1988
Paris Agency, 2437
Paris Green, 1030
Park St. Charles Company, Limited, proposed payment to, 4570
Parks. See also Dominion Lands and Parks Antelope for, qu. 1134
Parliament
Availability of Information. See Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Canadian National Railways Earlier sessions of, 1843 Information for. See Ministers Prorogation. See that tilte Representation in, 1293. See also House of Commons, Vacancies
Parliament Buildings, 3992, 4040, 4070-8 Acoustics, 3998-9, 4000 Architects' commission, 3995-4000 Brown, Hon. George-letter to Sir John Macdonald on former buildings, 4002 Building stone, 3994 Commons Chamber, 3996 Concrete, 3997 Cost, 3993-7, 4000 Draughts, 3998 Expenditure, qu. 4341 Furniture, qu. 2192 Inscription on central column, qu. 568 Inscription on tower, 3995-8, 4543 Library, 4000
Probable date of completion, 3992 Purchase of materials, 3994 Tower, 3993-9


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cvii
Parliamentary and Departmental Printing,
1438. See also Printing Bureau
Parliamentary Control of Railways. See
Canadian National Railways Special Committee
Parliamentary Elections. See Proportional Representation
Parliamentary Government. See Representation in Parliament
Parliamentary Guide, purchase of copies, 4533
Parliamentary Procedure. See Deputy Speaker; House of Commons; Speaker
Parliamentary Restaurant, 4536 Additional vote for, 4535 Joint Committee, 303 Manager, 2027
Participation Certificates, 340. See also Address; Canadian Wheat Board
Partridge Island Quarantine Station, 2808-15
Party Politics. See Canadian National Railways, Management
Passport Office, 2436
Pas, The, wharf, 3976
Patent Act Arndt. Bill
lr„ 3007; 2r., 4453; com., 4456; 3r., 4460; Senate amdts. 4544 Subjects and Sections discussed:
Alien enemies, 4456 Fee, 4456
No patent void by failure to make or import between August 1, 1914, and Jan 10, 1922, 4457 Return of fees, 4457 Rights of those who have commenced to make, use, or sell, 4459 Time extended, 4457 United States legislation, 4454-60 Validity of patents protected during war, 4459
Patent Act Consolidation Bill, 4456
Patent Medicines, tax on, 3120, 3727-28
Patents, Commissioner of, 623. See also Exchequer Court Act Arndt. Bill '
Patents of Invention Acts Consolidation Bill
lr., 303; M. for 2r„ 2890; withdrawn, 2891
Patronage. See Canadian National Railways; Civil Service
Peace Conference, 164, 2629. See also Address; League of Nations; Permanent Court of International Justice; Prime Ministers' Conference French Canadians, unrepresented, 562 Orders in Council, 397
Peat Industry, 2689. See also Supply problem
Peck, Mr. C. W. (Skeena)
Australian steamship services, 1495 Burnham, Dr., case of, 1526 Dease and Stikine rivers, qu. 1133 High Commissioner's office, 2438 Military districts, 2789 Militia, command pay, 2292 Rulings and Statements as Chairman Decision of Chair must not be questioned, 1904
Members, reflections on, 1903 Shipbuilding, 1923 Interruption in debate, 1898 Special Committee on Returned Soldiers, 788
Pecuniary Claims Convention, qu. 736, qu. 1817, qu. 2027	[DOT]
Pedlow, Mr. Isaac E. (South Renfrew)
Air Board, 3778-82 Alberta penitentiary, 1115 Armistice Day Bill, 3773-6 Canadian National Railways Purchasing agent, 1659 Cattle embargo, Arndt., 725, 758 " Champlain ", steamer, 1995 Chief, Foreign Tariffs Division, 1437 Civil Service Classification Filing clerks, 1660 Griffenhagen, 2242
Civil Service Retirement Act Arndt. Bill, 2488-2500
Civil Service (Res. Sir Sam Hughes) Political patronage; Liberal platform and administration, 815; defeated candidate should not control patronage; condition of civil service; discontent, dissatisfaction and unrest; classification and reorganization; Printing Bureau, 816; Civil Service Commission, competitive examination; census commissioners and enumerators, 817; prohibition plebiscite, returning officer at Renfrew, 820 Coats, Mr. R. H., salary of, 1232 Cocoa preparations, 3703 Confidential messengers, 1934 Customs and Excise Depr Bill
Currency inflation and commodity prices, 4431
Fines, 4392
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Pedlow, Mr. Issao E.-Con.
Customs and Excise-Con.
German bounty on sugar, 4432 German mark, 4431 Imports and exchange, 3810-12 Invoice certificate, 3799, 3803-04 Pee-who pays? 3804, 4391-4409 Obstacles to importation, 4410-16 Restrictions on trade-letter from Gillies Bros., Ltd., 4418 Trade agents, 4410 Valuation of currency, 3809-12-19, 4430 Customs Tariff Act, 1907, Arndt. Bill Imported goods, marking of, 3938-55, Arndt. 3955 '
Customs estimates, 3087 Demography, chief of division, 1232 Fisheries, 2177-90 Flax industry, 1398, 1401 Free trade-Mr. Cockshutt, 3747 Halladay, Mr,, and Canada Cycle and Motor Co., 1227
Harbours and rivers, estimates, 3976-9 Horse-breeding, 1121
Imported goods, marking, 3712, 3720-23, 3938-55
Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters, 612 Interior Department, employees, 1343 Lignite, 4499 Militia
Estimates, 2239
M. to reduce, 2281-8 Purchasing Commission, 2239, 2287 Salaries, 2287
" Niobe " and "Rainbow", sale, 4015-19 Parliament buildings, 3994 Pembroke wharf, 4536-9 Penitentiaries, increases in estimates, 1109 Polish battalion for service in French army, 4051
Polish immigrants, rejected, qu. 914 Post Office Letter rate, 4526 Parcel post rates, 4526 Purchasing agents, 4527 Rural mail carriers, 4527 Stamps, postage and revenue, 4526 Preferential tariff-West Indies, 3704 Preserved fruits, 3703 Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act Arndt.
Bill, 2482 Shipbuilding, 1956
Soldiers' pensions, insurance and re-establishment, 4051 Special War Revenue Bill Consideration en bloc, 3956 Houses, tax on, 3958 Lumber, tax on, 3743, 3957, 3958
Pedlow, Mr. Issac E.-Con.
Special War Revenue-Con.
Sales tax, 3755 Change in clause, 3957 Wholesalers opposed to, 3752 Steamship " Narbethong ", 2175 Sugar imports, 3703 Trade and Commerce employees, 1226 Trade commissioners, 1399 Trent canal, 2606-16
Pelletier, Mr. F. J. (Matane)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 381; previous arguments for dissolution endorsed; public ownership; Canadian National Railways; Board of Directors; employees and elections; sections granted privileges denied to others; Intercolonial, piling lumber in yard at Amqui; financial obligations due to nationalization; world-wide liquidation, 382; Prime Minister's duty to dissolve Parliament, 383
Canadian National Railways Amqui station, 382, 1176 Illustration stations at Matane and Cau-sapscal, 947 Matane, wharves, 3992 Quebec Union Telephone Company, 3343
Pembroke wharf, 4536
Penitentiaries, 1091, 1096. See also Justice; Prisons and Reformatories Alberta, 1092, 1115 Appropriations for, 1104 Convicts
Number and cost of, 1092 Dorchester, 1092
Purchases locally, 1108 Salaries of officials, 1096 Warden, 1092, 4467 Flour purchases, 1107 Kingston, 1110
Staff and inmates, 1097 Trades at, 1092
Maintenance cost, increase in, 1111 Purchases, system of, 1108 Purchasing Commission, 1104 Report, 2027
Salaries and retiring allowances Increases in, 1109-10 St. Vincent de Paul, 1078, 1091 Convicts, number of, 1091 Warden, qu. 575, 1078 Saskatchewan, 1091, 1110 Stony Mountain, release of prisoners, 477


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Penitentiaries Act Amdt. Bill
lr., 3738-39; withdrawn, 3973
Pensions, 164, 2236-78. See also Returned Soldiers, Special Committee Application forms in French, qu. 965 Assignment in payment of insurance premium, 4355
Board of Commissioners, 4366 British funds, disbursement in Canada, qu. 733
Brunelle, Sergt. Major N., 1518 Deduction from widows' pensions, 4369 Deductions for insurance premium, Res.
(Mr. Power) 629; withdrawn, 630 Disability, qu. 1235 Etienne, Mde., claim, 4367 Marcil, Mr. Joseph, qu. 3903 Marcil, Messrs. I,ouis T. and Joseph, qu. 2942
Martel, Mde., claim, 4367	*
Old age. See Address
Permanent force, deductions from pay of, 2275
Refusal to soldier disabled by accident, 4366
Scale for deaths, 4266
Scale for disabilities, 4264
South African, 2278
Special Committee, final report, 4041
"Unmarried wife," 4369
Widowed mothers, Res. (Mr. Power) 630; withdrawn, 642, 4047, 4368
Pensions Act Admt. Bill
Res. 4262; lr., 4266;	2r„ com., 4361; 3r„
Subjects and Sections discussed:
Board of Pension Commissioners, 4366 Deduction from widowed mothers' pensions, 4369 Housing, 4362 Increased sale, 4361 Interpretation of Act, 4366 Military Service, "as such," 4366 Statement by Prime Minister, 4361 Unemployment, 4361 Widowed mothers, 4368
Pent land, Mr., and Quebec Admiralty district, 1086
People's Representatives. See Ministers Per Capita Expenditure and Debt, 2012, 3246
Permanent Court of International Justice Bill,
56, 285, 645. See also Canadian Nationals; League of Nations; Prime Ministers' Conference lr., 2096; 2r., com., 2708; com., 3013; 3r.,
Permanent Force. See Militia; Pensions Perrot Island bridge, qu. 576, qu. 603
Peterborough
By-election, 504
Milling industry, 3544
Trent canal, 2953. Sec also that title
Petitions. See Private Bills
Petroleum. See also Oil Bounties, 1385, 1413 Government regulation, 3539 Leases, 3539
Natural gas, and, lease rentals, qu. 672 Pharmaceutical Compounds, 3726-7 Phonographic Discs. See Copyright Pictou-Georgetown steamship services, 1496
Pierreville Postmistress, qu. 2624, 2858, qu. 3208; qu. 3422; qu. 3423. See also Y amaska
Pig iron industry, 3188 Pilotage, Administration of, 1999 Pilots, 1999
Montreal-Quebec, superannuation, qu. 1501
Pin, Mr. J. E. A., and Labour, 1642
Pipes, Mr., and Dorchester Penitentiary, 1093
Plate Glass Industry, 3513
Playing Cards. See Criminal Code Amdt. Bill-Three Card Monte Tax on, 3126
Pointe Claire, wharf, 4312 Poisoning of Insects, 1028 Police Magistrates. See Judges
Polish Battalion for service in French Army, 4051
Polish Immigrants, rejected, qu. 964
Political Control1 of Railways. See Canadian National Railways
Political Patronage. See also Canadian National Railways; Civil Service Lawyers selected by Government, 1077
Pollution of Harbour Waters. See Canada Shipping Act Amdt. Bill
Pontiac
Census commissioners and enumerators, 828, 1127
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Power, Mr. C. G.-Con.
Address-Con.
Government has lost confidence of country; deficits from public ownership; Great War Veterans Association, 105; enforced isolation of Quebec, 106; the public conscience, 107 Administration of Justice, 1325 Alpine Club, 4494 Bankruptcy Act Arndt. Bill, 2918 Burnham, Dr., treatment by Serbian Government, qu. 576, 1525 Cabinet-maker, Interior department. 1342 Canada Temperance Act
Quebec petition for suspension of Act, 4382
Canadian Government Merchant Marine Vessels, names of, 1962 Canadian Nationals Definition Act, 782, 2033
Canadian National Railways Employes, fraud by, 1669 Canal tolls, 2976
Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2780, 2881 Returned soldiers-preference, 4483 Superannuation-increased allowances, qu. 3903, 4541 Coats, Mr. R. H., 1232 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill (Prohibition plebiscite) 304 Expenditures on public works, 2983 Fiji Islands, Mr. Catellier, 1465 Foreign agitators and elections, 903 Forestry
Canadian Forestry Association, 4494 Director of, 1346
Immigration, medical inspection, qu. 572
Interior Department law clerks, 1332
Ireland, South, Parliament for, qu. 603
Judges, Admiralty, 1086
Lights, repairs to, 1996
Marine signal service, 1998
Militia
Ashley, Sergt. T., qu. 3090 Command pay, 2290 M. to reduce, 2292 Estimates, 2275, 2310 Permanent Force, M. to reduce estimate, 2797
Record office, 2278-81 Staff, 2787-91 Military preparation, 2305 Miniature natural resources cabinets, 1342 Moving pictures, 599
Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Amdt. Bill, 2265
Pensions Act Amdt. Bill, 4366-73 Pensions
Application forms in French, qu. 965
Power, Mr. C. G.-Con.
Pensions-Con.
Deductions for insurance, res. 629; withdrawn, 630
Permanent Force, deductions from pay, 2236, 2275	.
Widowed mothers, res. 630, 640; withdrawn, 642, 4369
Public Works-Quebec district, 2983 Quebec
Citadel, 1441
Fortifications, res, 967
Port and Merchant Marine, 1271
Riots, 1509
Ship repairing, 19S6
Returned Soldiers Insurance Act Amdt.
Bill, 4355-7 Ross rifle, 2782
Serbian Consul at Montreal, qu. 605
Shipbuilding, 1962
Soldiers Civil Re-establishment
Loyola college building, Montreal, qu. 569
Supply-Public Works, point of order, 2758 Trent canal, construction, 2983-94 Unemployment relief, qu. 570 Union Service Fund, qu. 2192 Welland canal, construction, 2983-94
Prairie Provinces
Grasshopper plague, 1027 Transfer of Natural Resources. See Natural Resources
Preferential Vote. See Proportional Representation
Presentation of Speaker's Chair. See
Speaker's Chair
Press
Bureau in New York, 2400 Canadian Press Limited, qu. 564, 4533 Comment on Shipbuilding. See Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Shipbuilding
Defamatory libel, publication of court proceedings, 2149, 3933
Murray, Mr. G. M., and, 330, 442, 2622, 3645-7	.
Propaganda, 290
Press Gallery
Long sittings of House, 2887
Preston, Mr. W. R. T., 3383
Prevost, Mr. Jules E. (Terrebonne)
Budget, 3427. National Liberal and Conservative Government; railway policy, 3428; expenditure, public debt and re-
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Privileges and Elections, Committee, 2314, 2373, 2617, 2685, 2775 Representation, Maisonneuve and GaspS. 4437
Substitution of names, 2441
Privy Council, 99, 2105 Appeals, limitation of, 1089, 1090 " Insular " tribunal of England, 1090 Judges. See Judges Act Arndt. Bill Daw library, 1090
Salmon fishery licenses, qu. 104, qu. 1381, 2104, qu. 2506, 4341
Prize Money. See Agricultural Shows
Probation, system of. See Criminal Code Amendment
Progressive Party, 331, 539, 1531, 1546, 3324, 3356. See also Address, Budget, Canadian Council of Agriculture, Crerar, United Grain Growers Abolition of patronage, 822, 3163 Attitude on Tariff, 3212. See also Budget Speeches
Canadian Council of Agriculture. See that title
Railway problem, and, 1789 Wheat Board, and, 1451. See also Grain and Grain Trade; Canadian Wheat Board
Prohibition, 4474
Prohibition Plebiscite, 303. See also Canada Temperance Act; Dominion Elections Act Arndt.
Alberta, 3901, 4374-88 Ontario
Renfrew returning officer, 820 Voters' lists, 150, 242, 259, 303
Proportional Representation, 346, 411 M. (Mr. Sexsmith) for adoption of, 1528 Arndt. (Mr. Calder) for Special Com., 1542
M., as amended agreed to, 1554; Special Com. appointed, 1554-5 Special Com., authority to print report, 2027
Proprietary and Patent Medicines, tax on,
Prorogation, 4577
Alleged undue desire to hasten, 4068 Governor General's Speech, 4579 Probable date of, 4238-40, 4551
Protection. See Address; Budget; Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Proulx, Mr. Edmond (Prescott)
British funds, disbursement in Canada, qu. 733
Buckley, Mr. Charles P., qu. 966 Canada Temperance Act Pending litigation, 4384 Canadian Air Force, qu. 965 Canadian Bar Association, 1095 Cattle embargo, 766 Chief Justice, salary of, 1571 Civil Service Bonus, 2115 List, qu. 1349
Res. (Sir Sam Hughes) Political patronage; amendments to Civil Service Act; Civil Service Commission; appointments in cities and rural districts; census commissioners and enumerators, 829
Clapp, Miss S., 1332 Condensed milk, tax, 3737 Cooper, Col. John A., qu. 697 Dairy Products Grading Bill, 4442 De Martigny divorce, 3765 Dominion Elections Act Arndt. Bill, 4247-8 Elections in France, 1552 Highways
Construction in Ontario, 4290-4306 Width, 4306 Judges
Exchequer Court and Grand Trunk arbitration, 1084
Superannuation and retirement, 1082 Justice Department Lawyers in, 1077 Purchasing agents, 1079, 1115 Live stock breeding, 1116 Militia supplies, sale of, 1098 National Catholic Labour Unions, 1647 Post Office Act Arndt. Bill, 2121 Roumanian loan, interest, qu. 2344 Senate and House of Commons Act Arndt.
Bill (Ministers and directorships) 593 Unemployment and immigration, 1356 Welland canal, sand contracts, qu. 600
Provinces doing business, and taxation, 3705-6, 3742
Provincial Legislation, reports on, 2373
Provincial Responsibility. See Housing
Provincial Rights. See Canadian Bar Association; Lake of the Woods
Publications, Government, 1438 Editorial Committee, annual report, 901
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Public Accounts Committee, 3582, 4105 Motion tor reference to Com., 1069 Report, 397
Public Buildings
Estimates, 4090 Ottawa. See also that title Charwomen, 4082 Elevator attendants, 4090 Nova Scotia, 2737-42 'Toronto customs house, 4095 Yukon, 4096
Public Documents, Destruction of. See
Printing Bureau
Public Harbours. See Canada Shipping Act; Harbours and Rivers
Public Money, voting of. See Canadian National Railways; Estimates; Supply
Public Ownership of Railways, 381, 1187, 1196.
See also Canadian National Railways
Public Printing and Stationery Department.
See Printing Bureau
Public Records, provision for, 2947
Public Service Retirements. See Civil Service Retirement
Public Works
Bridges. See Bridges Demobilization, 3989 Department
Accounts, paying of, 1606 Salaries, 2680, 2736, 2808, 2945, 4070, 4079 District Engineers' Office, Edmonton, 4535 Engineering Branch, reorganization, 4079 North Sydney, officials, 2817 Expenditures, 4101
Property, protection of. See Criminal Code Amendment Bill Rents, repairs, etc., 3989 Shipbuilding, 1858. See also that title Transfer of District Engineer's Office, Chatham-St. John, 4081
Pulp and Paper Industry, 873, 875. See also Natural Resources; Research Freight rates on, 2511 Pulpwood, exportation, 3513, 3744
Punishments, Excessive or Inadequate. See Criminal Code Arndt. Bill
Purchasing Agents, 1079 Canadian National Railways, 1659
Purchasing Commission, 1080, 2015, 2142, 2163, 2190, 2287
Authority for appointment, 1114 Canadian National Railways, 1659
Purchasing Commission-Con.
Closure, notice of, 2025
Creation of by Order in Council, 551
Limit of $5,000 without tender, 1101
Members of, 2016
Militia supplies, 2239
M. (Mr. Lemieux) to strike out item, 2108; amended 2020
Penitentiary supplies, 1097, 1108 Post Office, 4527 Public Works, 2681-3 Staff of, 1113
Surplus War supplies, disposal of, qu. 736 Tenders, statute providing for, 1105
Pure-bred Cattle. See Health of Animals; Live Stock
"Pussyfoot" Johnston, 902
Quaker Oats Company, 2954-76, 3544. See also Trent Canal
Quarantine. See also Health; Immigration Stations, 3128 Halifax, 2754-68 Partridge Island, 2808-15 Typhus, 4170
Quebec (City)
Arsenal, bonus to employees, 2113, 2782 Canada Temperance Act, 4382 Citadel, 1441 Elevators, 282, 1443 Employees, Militia, dismissal of, 2237 Fiset, Dr. Michel, qu. 963, qu. 4523 Fortifications, ancient. Res. (Mr. Power) 967; withdrawn, 970 Immigration buildings, 2757 Immigration officers, qu. 1131 Mail collection and delivery, qu. 576 Post Office, 4523 Riots of 1918 M. (Mr. Casgrain) 974 M. (Mr. Lavigueur) for compensation, 282
Mr. (Mr. Parent) 1503; neg. on division, 1518
St. Charles dam, 281
Transcontinental Railway workshops, 281 Quebec (Port)
Canadian Government Merchant Marine Discrimination against, 1965 Unfair treatment by, 1271	'
Elevator, 1443 Equipment, 687
Park St. Charles Company, proposed payment, 4570
Repairing of ships at, 1986 Shipbuilding, 1972
Transcontinental Railway facilities, 280 Wharves, 3977
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[Stage Direction]
Quebec (Province), qu. 570 Attitude towards Government, 551, 3216.
See also Address Census commissioners, 832 Highways in, 2098, 2344, 3025, 3029-34, 4305-13-33
Increased representation, 391 Judicial district, judges, 1081 Vice-Admiralty district, 1084-6 Labour in. See National Catholic Labour Unions
Natural resources, 875
Salmon fishery, qu. 1381, 2104, qu. 2506, 4040, 4341
Quebec and Saguenay Railway
Mileage, 1005
Station agents, qu. 696, 963
Quebec and Western Railway, qu. 573
Quebec Bloc, 3216
Quebec Bridge, 1653, 1670
Quebec Conference. See Ministers
Quebec-Montreal Pilots, Superannuation, qu. 1501. See also Pilotage
Quebec Oriental and Atlantic Railway, qu. 573
Quebec Salvage and Wrecking Company, Limited, 1990
Quebec Steamship Company, 2775, 2941 Petition presented, 3005
Queen's University. See Research
Questions, inquiry as to, 1502. See also House of Commons
Questions Passed as Orders for Returns, 578, 605, 606, 698, 839, 967, 1002, 1238, 1350, 1625, 1674, 1821, 2029, 2099, 2376, 2625, 2687, 2821, 3090, 3830, 3905
Quinlan and Robertson, 1972
Railway Act Amendment Bill (Inland Shipping Rates)
lr., 1497, order for 2r., stands, 2557
Railway Act Amendment Bill (Discrimination in rates) lr., 1232-33
Railway Adjustment Board, 4547
Railway Commission
Cases before, 3021
Chief Commissioner, 451, 1690, 1725, 3017 Speech of with reference to Canadian National Railways, 1202, qu. 2029 Fuel Control, 2944
Inland Merchant Shipping, and, 1497. See Railway Act Amdt. Bill
Railway Commission-Con.
Maintenance and operation, 3016 Members, 3016
National Transcontinental Railway, fire protection, 4337 Railway mail service, 4517 Railway rates, and, 1803 Railway Problems. See Canadian National Railways, Special Committee
Railways, 484, 3014, 4131. For individual railways see their titles .
Canadian National Railways. See that title Canadian Northern and Grand Trunk bonds, qu. 837
Car shortage, 512, 548, 3541, 4322
Charges on dining cars, 921
Coal for, duty, 1183-4
Coal mines in the United States, 4317
Competition, 1181
Deficit, 1577, 1585, 1946
Employees, income tax, 4353
Employees' wages, 1803
Export freight rates, 1224
Financial condition of, 1574
Freight cars for coal, 1254
Freight rates, 1009
Coal on, 1249, 1976. See also Fuel Supply Government. See also Canadian National Railways
Auditing by Auditor General, 1189 Lack of information, 1336 Ships, and, 1730 Grand Trunk. See that title Locomotives Cost of, 1587 Obsolete, 1587
Roumania and Greece, for, qu. 1236 Losses generally, 1008 Mail Service. See Post Office Management. See Canadian National Railways
Merging of, 3308
Minister of and administration of Canadian National Railways, 1190 Party politics, and, 1179 Public ownership, 508
Quebec, Oriental & Atlantic and Quebec and Western Railways, qu. 573 Railway Commission, under, 3017 Requirements for, purchasing, 1610 Securities, provincial guarantees, qu. 2619 Situation generally, 1007, 3406 Statistics, qu. 3422 Taxation, 1008 Tourist traffic, 4495 Traffic and government ships, 1936 Utilization of, 844
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Railways and Canals, Department of, 3014 Annual report, 697 Buckley, Mr. Charles P., qu. 966 Law costs, 3015 Minister of, duties, 1663 Outside service, 1665 Printing and stationery, 4335 Salaries, 1652, 3014, 4131, 4288
Railways and Shipping Committee. See also Canadian National Railways, Special Committee
M. for Standing Com. on (Mr. A. K. Maclean) 1555, 1582-3
Railways, Canals and Telegraph Lines, Committee, 1174, 2247, 2708, 3005
"Rainbow" and " Niobe." See Ballantyne; "Niobe"
Rates. See Railways, Freight; Shipping Discrimination in. See Railway Act Amdt. Bill
Real Estate. See Housing
Reciprocity Agreement with the United States, 268, 297, 1487. See also Address; Budget, Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Amdt. to Supply (Mr. Fielding) 2038; neg. 2075, 2393
Reclamation. See also Natural Resources Dominion lands, 4495 Moose Range area, 871
Recorder's Court Jurisdiction. See Criminal Code Amdt. Bill
Record Office. See Militia
Redemption of Gold. See Currency; Gold
Redistribution. See Address; Budget; Proportional Representation
Redlich on Procedure, 1675
Redman, Mr. D. L. (East Calgary)
Fuel Supply problem, 1253 Highway grants-Alberta, qu. 1821 Oil bounties, 1418 Tobin, Mr. W. J., qu. 1133
Re-Establishment, 314. See Returned Soldiers; pousing
Special Committee, final report, 4041
Referendum. See Prohibition Plebiscite
Reformatories. See Prisons and Reformatories
Refrigerator Cars for Transportation of fish, 1038
Regina
Indian Commissioner at, 2167-9
Regional Exhibitions. See Agricultural Shows
Registered Parcels, Insurance, 1619. See also Post Office Act Amdt. Bill
Registrars. Sec Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill; Judges
Regulations, Oil and Gas, 894. See also Oil and Gas, Petroleum
Reid, Hon. J. D. (Minister of Railways and Canals)
Annual railway statement, 1004 Business of the House
Estimates, alleged agreement, 4532, 4569 Canadian Government Merchant Marine, 1702
Statement to be made, 902 Canadian National Railways Betterments, 4317 Board of Directors, 4314 Box cars ordered, 331 Canadian Government railways-vote of $7,000,000 for working expenditure, 4335 Canadian Northern Railway Company, 3049
Loan of $50,000,000 to, 3037
Car shortage, 4323
Claims against, 1658
Coal mines in the-United States, 4317
Correspondence with directors, 1003
Deficit, 4319
Electrification, 4328
Employees, 1735
Reduction in number, 1851 Expenditure, 1616, 1662 Fire claims in Shelburne county, 4569 Flavelle, Sir Joseph, 4142, 4314 Fort William terminals, 3052 French language, 4331 Halifax and South Western line. 3053 Lockeport extension, 4324 Hudson Bay Railway, 985 Information, 1782 Intercolonial Railway, 1655 Land at Levis, 1849
Transcontinental, and, management, 1189
Joliette bridge, 4322 Joliette county, 3038 Loan of $50,000,000 to Canadian Northern, 3037
McAdoo award, 4325	*
Management of, 1440, 1654 Manitoba, construction, 3053 Maritime Provinces, improved facilities, 4568


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Reid, Hon. J. D.-Con.
Canadian National Railways-Con. Monastery station, 4325 Operating results, 4318 Operation, cancellation of trains, 1004 Portland terminal, 4317 Rails, price of, 1852
Special Committee, reference to, M.
(Mr. Meighen) 1771-4 Tenders for coal and ties, 1772 Transcontinental, forest protection, 4337 Transfer of rails to France, 4569 Western lines, 3039, 3048 Canal tolls, 2962 Fuel control, 2944 Government ships, 1731 Governor General's cars, 3037 Grain transportation rates, 2967 Grand Trunk arbitration, expenses, 4355 Grand Trunk loan, 4131-69, 4314-34 Grand Trunk railway Lines in United States, 4326 Portland terminus, 1384 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 690, 740
Halifax Graving dock, 1698 Highways, 3030, 4289-4313 Construction, 3127, 3036 Expenditure on, 3024
Inspectors, 3023	_
Projected roads, 3026 Work on, 1661, 1664 Purchasing agents, 1660, 1670 Questions, answers to, 1502 Railway Commission, 3016, 3020 Cases before, 3021 Railway department Auditors, 1661-70 Deputy Minister, 1665 Estimates, procedure in, 1666 Officials, 1654, 1660, 1672 Staff reduction, 1672 Travelling auditors, 1661 Railway estimates, 1652; 2953 Railways
Annual report, 1770 Congress, 3023 Items in supply, 3015 Law costs, 3015 Politics, 1771
Railway Commission, under, 3017 Traffic and Government ships, 1936 Red Deer river line, 3048 Returned soldiers, employment on Welland canal, 3001
St. John and Quebec Railway Bill, extension of time, 2030, 2152-7 Soldier Settlement Board, Maritime Provinces, 4532
Reid, Hon. J. D.-Con.
Tariff investigation report, 3055 Trent canal, 2953-60, 2606-17 Welland canal, 2025, 2966-3003
Reid, Mr. John F. (Mackenzie)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 329; congratulations to Prime Minister; leaders who were born oh the farm; new name for an old party; Government allied to big interests, 329; Mr. G. M. Murray and the press; Hudson Bay railway; Canadian National Railways, scarcity of cars, 330; grain blockade, United Grain Growers, Limited; National Progressive party, 331; business methods of the company; Mr. Guthrie's charges, 332; Mr. Rice Jones; names and birthplaces of directors; American settlers and goods, 333; Progressive movement not confined to Western Canada, 334 Agricultural implements, 3492 Bonds, War, Victory, tax free and taxable, qu. 2821
Briquetting plant at Bienfait, qu. 672 Budget, 3388. Comment on speech of Mr. Cowan; Agrarian and Liberal parties, 3389; economy in expenditure, 3390; tariff on agricultural implements; Canadian National Railways and freight rates, 3392; tariff revision; Grain Growers Guide, 3393; attitude of Government towards big interests, 3395; sales tax, 3396 Canadian National Railways
Grading in western provinces, qu. 570 Canadian Wheat Board, 2117, 2158 Cattle clubs, 1120 Cattle embargo, 717 Civil Service Bonus, 2110
Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 2879-80 Civil Service (Res. Sir Sam Hughes) Political patronage in; Civil Service Federation; Saskatchewan Customs Association; National Progressive party; Federal Union No. 66, 822; Board of Hearing; Printing Bureau, 823; British Civil Service, no fault to find with appointments, 824 Colid storage plants, 1040 Distribution of pure-bred stock in Saskatchewan, qu. 1236 Emigration, United States to, 3068 Hudson Bay railway, 991 Immigration Expenditure, qu. 2943 Immigrants, care of, 3069 Income tax, qu. 3422
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Returned Soldiers Insurance Act Arndt. Bill-Con.
Sections and Subjects discussed-Con. Insurance and limits thereof, 4355 Mercantile Marine, officers and seamen, 4357
Old age and sickness insurance, 4357 Returns. See House of Commons Reuter's and Imperial News Service, qu. 564 Revenue Bills
1.	Customs and Excise Department Bill Res. 3785; lr., 3822; '2r., com., 4388; 3r.,
2.	Customs Tariff Act, 1907, Amdt. Bill Res. 3698; lr., 3725; 2r„ com., 3938; 3r.,
3.	Income Tax Act Consolidation Bill, lr.,
4251; 2r., com., 4343; 3r., 4355
4.	Inland Revenue Act Amdt. Bill)
Res. 3726; lr., 3733; 2r., com., 3r., 3955
5.	Special War Revenue Act Amdt. Bill Res. 3733, 3741; lr., 3758; 2r., 3955; com.,
3955-3958; 3r„ 3958
Revising Officer. See Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill
Rhodes, Hon. Edgar N. See Speaker
Rice Jones, Mr. Cecil, Vice-President and General Manager, United Grain Growers, 289, 290, 333, 417, 3180, 3492
Richards, Mr. T. H., veterinary inspector, 1063
Riddell, Mr. Justice, payments to, qu. 1500
Right of Ministers to Sit in Either Chamber.
See Ministers
Riley, Mr. R. T., 1609-10, 3610. See also Canadian National Railways
Rimouski
County Pairs, 1240 Customs office, qu. 839 Experimental station, 954
Rinfret, Mr. Fernand (St. James)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 120; Prime Minister-right of Government to retain power, 120; formation of a new party to take place of Unionism-its misleading name, 121; the Prime Minister's Sherbrooke and Granby speeches, 122; by-elections; non-confidence amendment, 124; argument of Prime Minister analyzed; census and redistribution, 125; tariff; League of Nations; clamor for general election
Rinfret, Mr. Fernand-Con.
Budget, 3651. Dr. Tolmie and dry dock at Esquimau, 3651; Prime Minister's discussion of the tariff, 3652; Tariff Commission and revision of tariff, 3653; St. James by-election, 3655; customs duties and rate of exchange; deficits and expenditures, 3656 Copyright Amdt. and Consolidation Bill, 3835-49
Dominion Iron and Steel Company contracts, qu. 733
Exchange, value for duty, qu. 733 Excise officers and sales tax, 3955 Foreign decorations to Canadians, qu, 1132 German goods, holdback, qu. 1350 Government candidates, 3336 Immigration, 2579-2602
Importations from Germany, qu. 696, qu. 838
Income tax collections For 1919, qu. 3422 For 1920, qu. 2821 Insurance against sickness, 2554 Loans, tax exempt, qu. 575 Member making serious charge should retract, 1904
Montreal Inland Revenue offices, qu. 1820 Taxation, mutual insurance companies, qu. 605
National Research Institute, 2894 Naval Service, maintenance, 2107 "Niobe" and "Rainbow," sale, 4012-30 Pierreville postmistress, qu. 2624 Post offices in Canada, qu. 1233 Prime Ministers' Conference, 2677 Sales tax, 3955
Shipbuilding, 1898, 1908, 1926, 2094
Estimates, manner of bringing down, 1937
Holt, Sir Herbert, comment on, 1900 Unemployment, and immigration, 1367
Riordon Company. See Gilmour and Hugh-son
Riots. See Quebec Riots
Rivers and Streams Act. See Lake of the Woods
Roads, 3986. See also Bridges; Highways
Robb, Mr. James A. (Chateauguay-Hunting-don)
Agriculture, grasshopper plague, 1028, 1030 Business of the House
British practice as to, 1026 Canadian Government Merchant Marine Preference to Canadian goods, 1280
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Canadian National Railways Transfer of rails to France, 4569 Canadian Wheat Board, 2116 Cattle embargo, 730 Cattle feeds, exemption of, 3746 Chief Justice, income tax and, 1565 Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill, 2778 Crushed grain, 3745
Customs and Excise Dept. Bill, brokers, 4432
Customs duties, increase in, 597 Dairy Produce Grading Bill, 3760 Estimates, supplementary, inquiry, 4070 Flax industry, 1404 Foodstuffs, tax on, 3736 Freight losses, 1658 Fruit inspectors, 1046 Grain trade, investigation of, 2116 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2563 Hungry Bay road, 1660 Immigration, 2582-94 Imported goods, marking of, 3714, 3723 Indian "Shows" for distinguished visitors, 2169
Interim Supply Bill, 2115 International Trade Conference, qu. 2029, 2151
Judges Act Amdt. Bill, 2118 Maple Products Act, 1920, Amdt. Bill, 2559 Montreal Harbour Commission Bill, 2160 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3759, 385096; Amdt. 3896
Politics-participation in by railway employees, 4502
Post Office Act Amdt. Bill, 2120 Province trading subject to taxation, 3705 Quebec Union Electric Telephone Company, 3421
Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt.
Bill (Ministers and directorships) 656 Sheridan, Mr. John, resignation and reinstatement, 2173, 4502-5 Special War Revenue Act Amdt. Bill Containers, tax on, 3754 Flour, 3755 Lumber, 3751-2, 3756 Trade agents, 1225 Trent canal, 2610-12 Unemployment and immigration, 1363 West Indies trade, 1271
Robertson, Hon. Senator G. D., 536. See aim Labour, Minister of; Ministers
Roberval, air station, 3779
Robson, Judge, 3606. See also Board of Commerce
Robson, Mrs., and Immigration Department, 3058
Roche, Dr. See Civil Service Bill
Rockefeller Institute. 1433. See also Research
Rockefeller Interests and Mr. King. See Lapointe, Mr. Rodrique, Mr. Didace, qu. 3208
Rondeau Harbour, 3975
Root Vegetables.. Res. withdrawn, 4343
Ross, Mr. D. C. (West Middlesex)
Budget, 3531. Reciprocity agreement great boon to Canada, 3532; attitude of various members on Budget, 3533; Minister of Militia and tariff reform; military expenditure, 3537 Customs-Strathroy office, 3085 Fuel supply problem, 1255 Harbours and rivers, estimates, 3980-1 Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 618 Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4187-91 Newfoundland steamship service, 1486 Parliament buildings, 3995 Railway Commission, members, 3019 Steamship passengers, 1495 Trade with Australia and South Africa, 1468
West Indies steamship service, 1490
Ross Rifle, 2783-7
Statement of Rev. Canon Scott, qu. 599
Rotation of Crops, 1033. See Agriculture
Roumania. See also Loans Loan to, 478, 1441, 3444, 3811, 4430
Greece and, qu. 1236, 3563, 3611, 3620, 3661
Dominion Canners, purchases, qu.
1001, 1072
Interest on, 1072, qu. 2030, qu. 2344 Sale of military supplies to, 2245, 3564
Routhier, Late Judge, 1085-6
Rowell, Hon. N. W. (Durham)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 110; League of Nation^ and Assembly at Geneva, 110; co-operation to prevent armed conflict; Covenant of League; public rights and wrongs in international affairs; war, or threat of war, concern of all nations, 111; purposes and functions of League; some phases of the work at Geneva, 112; constitutional questions;


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Rowell, Hon. N. W.-Con.
Address-Con.
budget to be submitted annually; Council to report to Assembly; relations between Council and Assembly; Article XXIII, 113; vote to be not of a delegate but of the state he represents; proposed amendments to Covenant, 114; monopolies in and distribution of raw materials; admission of new states, Austria and Bulgaria, 116; questions of principle; case of Albania; minorities treaties, 117; Russian situation, 118; United States; attitude of representatives of selfgoverning minorities, 119; admission of Germany, 119
Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 2257
Canadian representation in the United States, 2394-2408 League of Nations, 110
Contribution towards, 2357 Letter of International Joint Commission, 691
Permanent Court of International Justice, 2722-24
Prime Ministers' Conference, 2647-67 Resignation of, 4340
Roy Building, Halifax, qu. 3089
Royal. See North American Insurance
Royal Assent, 486, 2160, 2899, 4578
Royal Bank of Canada
Canadian Government Merchant Marine and, 1719
Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act Arndt. Bill (Fines and forfeitures) lr., 2343; 2r., com., 2481; 3r., 2486
Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Dominion police force, withdrawal from, qu. 601
Recruits from England, qu. 601 Strength, 2798-2800 Thorold, qu. 574
Royal Canadian Navy. See Naval Service
Royal Commissioners. See Judges Act Amdt. Bill
Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, 1712, 1714, 1870. See also Canadian Government Merchant Marine	.
Royal Military College, 2802 Road, 3973
Royalty. See Copyright Ruddick, Mr. J. A., 1036
Rule 17C. See House of Commons, Estimates
Rulings. See Deputy Speaker; Speaker
Rural Homes. See Housing
Rural Mail. See also Post Office Boxes, number of, qu. 1235 Carriers, qu. 964 Contractors, 3507 Delivery, 1156 Routes, qu. 605
Rural postmasters, 2829-33-41-84. See also Civil Service; Post Office
Russia
Currency, 1072
Flax. See that title
Trade with, 1003, 1072, 1224
Ruttan, Dr. See Research
St. Alexis, station, qu. 2375, qu. 3582
Ste Anne de la Pocatiere
Destruction of library at, 1075 Illustration station, 948
St. Antoine, Montreal, representation of, qu. 577, 1069, 1070, 1293, 1295. See also Ames
St. Antoine, wharf, 2616
St. Augustin station, qu. 695, 3018
St. Catherine's Bay-Tadoussac service, 4530
St. Charles de Bellechasse, 1801
St. Charles River dam, 282
St. Croix wharf, 2616
St. Foy
Artesian well, 1659
Engine house, 767, 840, 967, qu. 1501, 1502, 1659. See also Canadian National Railways
St. Francis Harbour, 3990 St. Francis River, 1992, 1995
St. Francois du Lac
Electoral list, 3468 Lemieux, Mr., Speech at, 3528
St. Hyacinthe
Inland Revenue collector, Dr. A. P. Cartier, 3821, qu. 3904 Shops, qu. 2821
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cxxiii
Scott, Mr. F. S.-Con.
Address-Con.
tion, 325; business men opposed to dissolution; the amendment; confidence of the country; defections from Government; dissolution should be decided by Government not by leader of Opposition; Opposition and Agrarian party; Mr. Gauthier and province of Quebec, 327; Mr. Clark (Red Deer) and Liberal party, 328
Scott, Mr. W. D., and Immigration Dept., 3058
Scott Act, petition for suspension, 3584, 4382. See also Canada Temperance Act
Scottish Canadian Trust Company. See
North American Trust
Screenings, 3182. See Elevators; Grain
Scrub Cattle. See Live Stock
Seamen, Sick, care of, 3129. See also Health
Search Warrants. See Bankruptcy Act Arndt. Bill
Searls, Mr. George, Chief Grain Inspector, 1444
Secretary of State. See also External Affairs Enemy debts, demobilization, 4534 Estimates, 4557
Sedition
Esmonde, Mr. Osmonde Grattan, arrest for, 1556
Seed and Feed Control, 1125, 4513
Seed Fairs, 1126
Seed Grain
Advances, 4498 Inspectors, qu. 1624 Purchase, 4506
Seed Purchasing Commission, 1126
Seguin, Mr. P. A. (L'Assomption-Montcalm) Budget, 3668. Administration of public business, 3668; tar iff commission; tobacco-growing, 3668-9 Income tax-instructions in French, qu. 2624
L'Assomption
Experimental station, 918, 946 Pierreville postmistress, qu. 2624 Point of order-attack *n members, 1904 Religious holidays, qu. 1499 Shipbuilding, 1916
Select Standing Committees. See House of Commons
Selkirk wharf, 3976
Senate
Age Limit, 1171
Committee, leave for Mr. Crerar to attend, 3259
Free Conference-Judges Act Arndt. Bill, 3972, 4040, 4061, report 4250 Government representation in. See Ministers
Governor General-Address to on retirement, 4493
Macdonald, Hon. Senator, appointment, qu. 577
Members of to have seats in Commons. See Ministers
Members should be elected, 1163 Ministers in. See Labour; Postmaster General
Paintings in, qu. 566 Printing of Senate Bills, 3938 Reform, 389. See also Ministers Representation of Saskatchewan, 2567
Senate and House of Commons Act Arndt. Bill (Ministers and directorships) lr., 258; M. for 2r., 585, 650, neg. 665
Serbia
Consul at Montreal, qu. 605
Serbian Government, Dr. Burnham and M. (Mr. Lemieux) for papers, 1520
Sessional Employees. See Civil Service Retirement Act Arndt. Bill
Settlers' Relief, 4498
Sex Offences. See Criminal Code Amdt. Bill
Sexsmith, Mr. J. A. (East Peterborough) Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4283 Dairy Produce Grading Bill, 4442 Highways, 3031 Metal, 4307-8
Illustration farms and stations in Ontario, 954, 956
Proportional representation, M., 1528 Toronto-Kingston highway, 4306 Trent canal, 2959, 2971-3
Shaughnessy, Lord, 1195, 1896, 3046, 3572 Letter on railway situation, 2503, 2890
Shaw, Mr. H. M. (Macleod)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 383; investigation of grain trade; winter grazing in forest reserves; letter from Mr. George Porter, Maycroft, Alberta; the Government's mandate, 384
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Shaw, Mr. H. M.-Con.
Blood Indian reserve, qu. 1818, 1819 Canadian Wheat Board, qu. 340 Macieod judicial district, qu. 2344
Sheard, Mr. Charles (South Toronto) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 253; Mr. Gauthier; Imperial Conference; Lord Beaeonsfield; Imperial Council, 254; isolation of Quebec; pledges of 1917; no discontent regarding Government; urban and rural representation, 255; the tariff issue; seceding Liberal Unionists; Mr. Pardee; railway policy; Agrarians and free trade, 256; by-elections; union and harmony; Opposition policy, 257
Shediac and Cape Tormentine Railway, 4564
Shell Contracts, 1788
Sherbrooke, Prime Minister's speech at, 3339
Sheridan, Mr. John, Indian Agent
Resignation and reinstatement, 1499, 2173, qu. 2618, 4501-5
Sherwin-Williams Paint Company, profits, 372, 1897, 3484, 3565
Shipbuilding. See also Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Labour; Unemployment
Advances at Victoria, qu. 599 Amount required for, 1683, 1858 Assistance to, qu. 603 Auditing, 1933
British Government policy, 1865 Closure, 1979-2094. See also that title Continuation of after the war, 506 Contracts, 1683, 1689 Cancellation, 1726 Cost plus basis, 1910 For steel ships, qu. 565 Details of construction, 1874 Dominion Iron and Steel Company, qu. 733, 1233
Freights, lack of, 1284 Government programme, estimate, 2076 Government shipyard at Sorel, qu. 568, 1992, qu. 2028 Interest on cost, 1886 Labour for, 1889. See also Labour Newspaper comment, 1893,	1900,	1917,
1925, 1934, 1968
Returned soldiers and, 1727, 1909
Royal Bank, remarks of President of, 1900
Sinking fund, 1885
Steel and, 1876, 1884
Tonnage depreciation in value of, 1734
Trade routes, 1888
Shipbuilding-Con.
Unemployment, 1882, 1897, 1902, 1909. See also that title Victoria, qu. 599 Wooden ships, 1711
Shipping. See Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Canals; Great Lakes; Shipbuilding British Chamber of, 1716 Flag, recognition in foreign waters, 786 Great Britain and, 3236 Inland, 745, 1497, 2192 Rates, 2963-9
Ocean, decline in, 1273 Special Committee. See Canadian National Railways
Tonnage into Canadian ports, 3650 United States discrimination in tonnage dues, qu. 697
Ships
Deadweight value per ton, 1702 Private control of, 1717 Publicly-owned, disposal of, 1718 Repairing at Quebec, 1986 Steel plates for, 1233
Shipyards. See also Shipbuilding; Sorel Construction at, 1927 Government loans to, 1883 Vickers, 1967
Shortt, Professor Adam, 799. 2948. See also Civil Service
Sick and Distressed Mariners, 3129, 4039
Sickness, Insurance against, 4357 M. (Mr. Rinfret) withdrawn, 2554
Sifton, Late Right Hon. Arthur, tributes to, 3, 153
Sifton, Sir Clifford, and immigration, 3245
Silver, discovery at Kino Hill, Yukon, 856
Simpson, Mr. T. W. (West Algoma)
Natural resources, 872 Pulpwood, 3744	[DOT]
Sinclair, Mr. J. E. (Queen's, P.E.I.)
"Brant," steamer, 1982 Budget, 3470. Liberal party's record when in power; comparative tables of imports, 3471; average customs duty on imports, 3472; tariff issue; Prince Edward Island, potato growing, 3473; high freight rates, 3474; York-Sunbury election; record of Government during war, 3475
Cold storage plants, 1041


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[Stage Direction]
Sinclair, Mr. J. E.-Con.
Co-operative marketing of live stock, 1124 Dairy Products Grading Bill, 4439-48 Dominion Lands Act Amdt. Bill, 4066 Dredging, Hillsboro river, 3984 Government shipbuilding programme, 2076 Health of Animals, 4506 Highway construction in Ontario, 4306 Migratory Birds Act, enforcement,'4496 Post Office, Maritime provinces reorganization, 4528
Prince Edward Island Bailway, 4566 Soldiers Settlement Board, Maritime provinces, 4532
World's Poultry Congress, 4513
Sinclair, Mr. John H. (Antigonish and Guys-borough)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 358; congratulations to Prime Minister; duty of Opposition to criticise; National Liberal and Conservative party; same old party; "strange bedfellows"; Cabinet changes; retrenchment, 359; practical suggestions; nation builders and nation wreckers, 360; Dominion Franchise Act; withdrawals from Government, 361; tariff of special interests, revenue, protection; Mr. Calder's change of heart, 363; Liberals and Farmers; hazards of the farmers' calling; prices of farm produce,. 365; price-fixing; forces of progress must unite; big interests behind Government, 366; amendment a challenge to Government, 367 Air Board, 3785
Alcohol for medicinal purposes, 3957-58 Amherst drill hall, 2739 Auditor General's report, 597, 913 Blue books, printing of, 1485 Camp Borden, aeroplanes, qu. 1820 Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 2259-62
Canadian Government Merchant Marine, 1729, qu. 3089 Information, 1440 Trade routes, 1733 Vessels
"Canadian Beaver," qu. 1673 "Canadian Otter," qu. 1382 "Canadian Recruit," etc., qu. 1381 "Canadian Sapper," 734 Canadian National Railways Coal purchased, 1763 Freight, Nova Scotia points, qu. 1620 Monastery station, 4324 Mulgrave, ice supply, qu. 963
Sinclair, Mr. John H.-Con.
Canso
Harbour, 3983-9 Navigation school, 1989 Civil Service Bonus, 2109-10
Payments to Arthur Young and Griffen-hagen, qu. 4251
Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 2487-2503, 4270-77 Coal trade, 1936 Commercial exhibits, 1227 Copyright Amendment and Consolidation Bill, 3840
Corning, Mr. H., cattle purchases, qu. 1624 Currency Act Amdt. Bill, 2269 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Valuation of currency, 3812 Customs and Inland Revenue, overtime, 4123
Customs Tariff Act, 1907, Amdt. Bill Imported goods-marking, 3712, 3941-54, 3954
Debates, Official report, distribution of, 4560
Dominion and provincial jurisdiction over fisheries, 2105
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill Polls, hours of, 3095 Qualified voters, 3096 Dominion Lands Act Amdt. Bill, 4065 Dominion notes
Circulation, qu. 1001 Securities, qu. 1383 Dominion securities-grain, 1443 Dredging, 3983 Drydocks, 3987 Editorial Committee, 4560 Estimates on Thursdays and Fridays, Rule 17C, 958, 1026
Export trade, development, 1732 Fish-breeding establishments, 4036 French Trade Agreement, 2135-40 Fumigation of nursery plants, 1031 Grand Trunk Arbitration Bill, 2452-69 Grand Trunk loan, 4162-5, 4317 Grand Trunk Railway, lines in United States, 4326
Half Island Cove, breakwater, 3981 Halifax fishery award, qu. 2191 Harbours and Rivers, estimates, 3976-82 Hoarded liquor, tax on, 3706 Horse breeding, 1120
Intercolonial branch railway in Guysbor-ough county, 4567 Interior Department, editors, 1331 Job printers, taxation, 4123 Judges Act Amdt. Bill, 2118
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Sinclair, Mr. John H.-Con.
League of Nations, Canada's contribution, 2357
Marine hospitals, 3130-36 Maritime Provinces, improved transportation facilities, 4567
Mercantile Marine, insurance of officers and seamen, 4359
Migratory Birds Act, enforcement, 4497 Military expenditure, 3278 Militia-surveys division, 2243 Montreal Harbour Commission, 2268 Moving picture films, 1226 Mulgrave, ice tenders, qu. 963 Murray, Mr. G. M., qu. 2622 Natural resources and western provinces, 1338
"Niobe" and "Rainbow", sale, 4012-14 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3851-94 Parliament buildings, 3994-8 Partridge Island quarantine station, 2808 * Pension Act Amdt. Billi, 4366 Pensions, refusal to soldier disabled by accident, 4366
Permanent Court of International Justice, 2717-21
Pilots, pensions to, 2000 Port Hilford, dredging, 3983 Post Office Act Amdt. Bill, 2124 Post Office
Expenditure, 4521
Reorganization in Maritime Provinces, 4521
Rural mail, carriers, 4523 Public Works engineering branch, 4082-90 Purchasing Commission Staff of, 1113
Statutory authority to appoint, 1113 Quebec riots, 1516
Returned Soldiers Insurance Act Amdt. Bill, 4359-60
Returns, inquiries for, 1176
Russia, trade with, 1003
St. Francis harbour, 3990
St. John and Quebec Railway Bill, 2152-4
St. Lawrence channel, dredging, 1992
Senate and House of Commons Act Amdt.
Bill (Ministers and directorships) 591 Sheridan, Mr. John, resignation and reinstatement, 4504 Shipbuilding, 1858, 1869, 1920, 2085 Contracts, 1683, 1872 Excessive tonnage, 1873 Newspaper comment, 1932 Progress of debate on, 1727 Ships under construction, 1927 Sick mariners, 3130-36 Special War Revenue Act Amdt. Bill Hospital supplies and medicines, 3957
Sinclair, Mr. John H.-Con.
Steamship services, 1493, 1489, 1495
Sugar, importation of, 3702
Swan, Mr. D. D., consulting engineer, 1997
Toronto Customs building, 3772
Trade with Russia, 1003	.
Trent canal, 2609-13
United States discriminatory tonnage dues, qu. 697
Vessels commandeered, qu. 2943 Victory bonds, expenses, qu. 1620 Whitehead life-saving station, 1991 Wrecking plants, 1990 Wrecks, removal of, 1990
Sioux Lookout, 4191
Six Months' By-Elections. See Representation in Parliament
Six Months' Hoist. See House of Commons, Divisions
Smallpox on "Scandinavian", 1498, 1556
Smith, Mr. Alexander. See Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill
Smith, Mr. Sydney. See Post Office Dept.
Smith, Mr. William (South Ontario)
Cattle embargo, res. 702
Eggs, importation from China, qu. 568
Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3893
Smuggling
Aerial preventive service, 3778
Snider, Judge. See Printing Bureau, Destruction of Documents
Societe des Artisans Canadiens Francais, 82
Soldiers. See also Returned Soldiers
Pensions, Insurance and Re-establishment, 315
Polish battalion for service in French army, 4051
Settlement on land, 529
Special Committee, final report, 4041
Soldiers Civil Re-establishment
Department of, report, 836 Disabled unemployed, 4364 Estimates, 4532
Loyola College building, Montreal, qu. 569 Operating expenses and working capital, 4532
Soldier Settlement Board, 314, 529, 538, 3554, 4532
Advisory and Qualification Board at Prince Albert, qu. 673 Estimates, 4532 Graham, Mr. A. M., qu. 2618
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[Stage Direction]
cxxvii
Soldier Settlement Board-Con.
Maritime Provinces, 4532 Operation of, 529
Tobin, Mr. W. J., and, ques. 1133
Solicitor General. See Ministers
Sorel Dockyard, qu. 568, 1992, qu. 2028 Shipyards, qu. 568
Superintendent, qu. 2618	'
Soudan War, 1882 Soulanges Canal. See Canals
South Africa
Steamship service, 1491 Trade with, 1468
South African War, 1527 Pensions, 2278
South Gabriola Wharf, 3981 Soviet. See Russia
Speaker, Hon. Edgar N. Rhodes. See also Deputy Speaker, House of Commons Rulings and Statements of Address, debate on.
Tariff not excluded from discussion, 58 Adjournments
For purpose of discussing matter of urgent, etc.; question may be discussed on motion for Supply, 4106 Amendments
Must amend, not merely negative, 561 Put subject to consideration, 376 Ames, Sir Herbert
Resignation of, 469, 1001 Member (Hon. Mr. King) may go into matter on motion for Supply, 1070
Bills
Additions to, proposed, 4259 Com., referred to after second reading, 2776
Details properly discussed in Com., 624
Preceded by resolution
Notice not necessary, 2942 Trade Bills should be, 2150 Press interview not germane to principle of, 2870
Printing of Senate Bills, 3938 Private
Notice not required, 3971 Reference back by Com. of Whole, 1094
Suspension of Rules for, 3716 Second reading, order must be proceeded with or stand, 650
Speaker, Hon. Edgar N. Rhodes-Con.
Rulings and Statements of-Con.
Bills-Con.
Senate, motion for first reading not debatable but rule relaxed for Prime Minister and leaders, 151 Senate amendments, correction of error, 4068
To be disposed of by consent without discussion, 2890 lr..
Senate Bills, unusual to. explain, 151, 1619-20 3r.,
Debate on, 3343 Chair
Good taste, 3174
Ruling-exception to must be taken in constitutional manner, 3174 Should be permitted to exercise jurisdiction, 1308 Com.,
Standing, competent to consult Law Clerk, 598
"To-morrow" means next Government day, 563 Debate
Adherence to rules, 649, 2333 Closed by mover, 900, 2447, 2518, 3968 Questions not to be asked as in Com., 2450
Restriction of, 969, 2067 Debates, Official Report of Insertion of documents After reading, 1539 Not read, 2067
Unanimous consent necessary, 1009 Decorum, 3174
Conversation in Chamber and galleries, 2053
Debate cannot be conducted from seats, 287 Debate, in, 286 Good taste, 3173-4 Governor General Acknowledgment of Address, 3830 Address to on retirement, 4493 Imaginary letters, 3173, 3260 Minister of Crown and, 3174 Substitution of names, 3174 Interruptions, 3228 Language
" Coward ", 287
" Deliberately false and untrue ", 2444 " Flagrant insult ", 287 " Mean appellation ", 463 Unparliamentary, 1516 Members
Asking question may not make statement, 77, 987, 1308, 2865
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Speaker, Hon. Edgar N. Rhodes-Con.
Rulings and Statements of-Con.
Members-Con.
Comment on speech in other House not in order, 536
Debating, should be mindful of rule, 1758
Discussing principle of Bill on second reading restricted to one speech, 649 Having already spoken no right to speak again, 1307 How to be referred to. 69, 444
Leeds (Sir Thomas White) 69, 469 Limited to one speech on motion, 1177 May not reflect on judiciary, 812 Must be seated when Speaker rises, 3228
Not to be put on trial in House, 2443 One may give his own interpretation to remarks of another, 1197 Promises made by subject to rules of order, 4204
Reading from documents or newspapers when asking question, 736, 972
Reading speech, 544 Resignations, 1619. See also House of Commons
Ames, Sir Herbert, 469 Right to reply, 1245 Right to reply to reflection implied in question, 1172
Right to speak exhausted, 985, 1812, 2780, 3859, 4113, 4116 Should confine remarks to question before House, 816
Sitting, may ask question but may not make remarks, 127, 2225, 2867 Speaking, may not interrogate members sitting, 126, 2333 Speaking when no motion before House, 4203-4
To speak only once on motion, 2889 Speaking, has floor, 1794 Statement of must be accepted by House, 1197, 1641 Motions
Adjournment
Competency to withdraw, 1173 Adopted as amended, 1846 Amendment must amend not merely negative, 561 Committee
Not in order to discuss general railway problems, 1782 Error in, 1810 Involving expenditure Housing, 1135 Hudson Bay railway, 985 Not in proper form, 4052
Speaker, Hon. Edgar N. Rhodes-Con. Rulings and Statements of-Con.
Motions-Con.
Notice not given-unanimous consent necessary, 732, 1439, 2027, 2776, 2940, 4250
Notice not required with respect to Private Bills, 3971 . Practically identical, 974
Strict application of rule would leave only portion debatable, 1758 To adjourn for purpose of discussing matter of urgent, etc., 4106 Withdrawal by unanimous consent, 2554
Non-debatable subjects
Evidence before Committee not reported to House, 2881 Subjects already debated, 2824 Orders of the Day
Debate limited, 110, 1271, 1439, 2250, 2377, 3972
Alleged incomplete return may not be discussed in detail, 2250 Appropriateness of matter, 2626, 2776
Argument improper, 1070 Argument under guise of question. 901
House reverting to certain motions, 1851
Latitude allowed, 1070, 4254 Local questions, 110, 1271 Member not to be put on trial in House, 2443
No cross-examination of Ministers, 1004, 1441, 3321
Optional with Government to give information, 478
Questions reflecting on Government's policy, 1441
Questions unanswered, attention directed to, 1621
Summarizing newspaper articles, 1441
Pairs, correction of list, 563 Parliament buildings, inscription on tower, 4544
Petitions, manner of presenting, 562 Previous debate, 2824
Privilege. See also this title under House of Commons
Matter not affecting member personally, 2443 Questions
Answer of Government to be accepted, 1004
Deferred until Com. of Whole, 1024 Reflecting on Pailiament, improper, 736, 1441


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cxxix
Speaker, Hon. Edgar N. Rhodes-Con.
Rulings and Statements of-Con.
Questions-Con.
Supplementary answer to, 1755 Unanswered, member should direct attention to on Orders of the Day, 1621
Reference by way of illustration and not reflection, 3261 Relevancy, 1172, 1193, 1196
Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill, 2865 Resolution
Amended by avoiding mention of money, 1136
Latitude of discussion, 1135 Money, 1135 Propriety of form, 1146 Rules of the House
Discussion, widest possible measure of, 1135
17C, Thursdays and Fridays. See House of Commons, Estimates Senate Committee
Leave for Mr. Crerar to attend, 3207 Debates, reference to, 396S Free Conference on Judges Act Arndt. Bill, 4040
Members of, reference in terms of disrespect, 536 Supply
Amendments to
Discussion confined, 2507 Irrelevancy, 1193
Questions of detail should be withheld for, 1280
Rule 17C-Thursdays and Fridays, 1004. See also House of Commons, Estimates
Unanimous consent, 1009,	1233,	3715,
4433, 4453. See also under this title, Debates, Official Report Canada Temperance Act, 3902 Minister making statement while Speaker in Chair, 1024 Votes and Proceedings, correction of, 737 Warrant for election writ-Durham and Maple Creek, 4340
Speaker's Chair, presentation of, 3689, 3691 Addresses to be printed in Official Report of Debates, 3696 Expression of thanks to Empire Parliamentary Association, 3696 Presentation of, notice, 3688 Speeches, 3689
Speech from the Throne debated. See
Address
Special War Revenue Act Arndt. Bill
Res. 3733, 3741; lr„ 3758; 2r., 3955; com., 3955-3958; 3r„ 3958 Subjects and Sections discussed: Amendments, 3742
Binder twine fibre, 3746, 3756. See also that title
Boxed goods, 3735
Condensed milk and ice cream, 3737, 3956
Containers, 3737, 3754, 3956
Excise taxes, 3955
Fishing boats, 3745
Foodstuffs, 3589, 3734
Lumber, tax on, 3734, 3736, 3742-3, 375657
Missals and prayer-books, 3756 Mixed grains for feed, 3745 Oatmeal and rolled oats, 3736-6 Oleomargarine, materials for, 3745-6 Package goods, 3735
Sales tax, 3120, 3170, 3399, 3996, 3735, 3752, 3957. See also Taxation Opposition to change, 3752 Sparkling wines, 3734
Speedways. See Highways
Spinney, Hon. E. K. (Yarmouth and Clare) Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill, 2685, 2778, 4278-80
Annual report, Arndt. 4482 Special Com., report, 3901 Civil Service Retirement Act Arndt. Bill, 4271
Spirits, Tax on, 3120, 3506, 3576, 3705, 3726. See also Alcohol; Customs Tariff; Customs and Excise; Liquor
Spirituous and Alcoholic Liquors, 3705-8
Sprays. See Insects
Spruce Bud Worm, 1031
Stacey, Mr. F. B. (Fraser Valley)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 140; examination of reasons advanced in support of amendment; pre-election pledges of Government fulfilled or in process of fulfilment; no charge of maladministration, 141; Government policy in interest of country; unification of Canadian people, 142; class consciousness; by-elections in British Columbia; the Agrarians, 143; no demand for a change, 144 British Columbia, fishing regulations, 21S0
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Stevens, Mr. H. H. (Vancouver Centre) Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 212; the amendment; argument of the Opposition; Liberals and Agrarians, 213; Leader of Opposition's incentive is accession to power; redistribution before election; increased representation for West; freight rates, relative representation of urban and rural districts, 214; no general demand for an election; War Veterans, Mr. Harry Flynn; Peterborough byelection; Vale, Colchester, St. John, East Elgin; War Time Elections Act, 217; the tariff-Opposition dare not make it an issue; National Liberal Convention, 1919, 218; statement of leader of Opposition at Kingston; tariff a matter of vital interest; Opposition resolutions of 1919 and 1920, 221; Government will welcome campaign on fiscal policy; coalition between Liberals and Agrarians; leader of Opposition lacks sincerity in proposing amendment, 222
Average duty during Liberal regime, 3471 Budget, 3619; speech of Mr. King, comment on; Canadian National Railways, administration, 3620; loans to Rou-mania and Greece: members of Parliament and sale of goods to foreign countries, 3621; comparison of this year's expenditure and expenditure under Liberal administration, 3621; position of leader of Opposition on tariff, 3622; American tariff a factor in tariff revision, 3623; tariff for revenue only, 3625; Mr. Fielding and protection, 3626; Mr. Crerar and York-Sunbury election, 3627; Hansard, changes in Mr. Crerar's speech as delivered, 2627-8; tariff question, boot and shoe industry, 3631; agricultural implements, 3631; United Grain Growers and lumber combine, 3633; grain overages, 3634; taxation, 3634; land tax, 3634-35; Canadian representative at Washington, 3635 Canada Temperance Act, qu. 736 Canadian Government Merchant Marine, 1721
Dominion Iron and Steel Company, 1723 Canadian manufacturers and export trade, 1222
Canadian National Railwp.ys
Special Com. (Mr. Meighen) M„ 1805 Chinese Immigration Act Arndt. Bill, 3828 Customs, Minister of, 3081 Private business of, 3078
Stevens, Mr. H. H.-Con.
De Martigny divorce, 3770, 4203 Government shipbuilding programme, 2088 Harbours and rivers, estimates, 3978-9 Immigration, 2595 Deputy Minister, 3056 Imperial Mineral Resources Bureau, 2166 Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 619
Interim Supply, Purchasing Commission, 2021
Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4195 Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Arndt. Bill Arndt. (Penalty-whipping) 2901 Oriental immigration, 2594 Railway Act Arndt. Bill (Discrimination in rates) 1232
Senate and House of Commons Act Arndt. Bill (Ministers and directorships) 596, 650
Wednesday evening sittings, 1829 Wheat Board, qu. 489
Stewart, Mr. J. A. (Lanark)
Alcohol, tax on, 3729, 3730 Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 4268-73
Customs and Excise Dept. Bill
Commercial agents, payments to, 4405 Dumping clause, 4413 Ports of entry, 4414 Trade extension, 4405 Valuation for duty, 4414 De Martigny divorce, 3765
Stewart, Mr. R. A., qu. 2343
Stewart, Mr. T. J. (West Hamilton)
Criminal Code Amdt. Bill (Automobile theft) 3916 Highways, 3028 Construction, 3036
Stikine and Dease Rivers, qu. 1133 Stock Feed. See also Feeds; Live Stock Stockyards, 1124. See Live Stock
Strathroy
Customs, 3085
Destruction of pasture lands, 1030
Streams Bill. See Lake of the Woods Strikes. See Labour
Submarines. See Shipbuilding
Sugar, 3699
Beet industry, encouragement to farmers, 301, 3426, 3456
Canada-West Indies trade, 2255-7, 3699 Customs tariff on, 3698, 3725, 3938, 3955
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Sugar-Con.
German bounty on, 4432 Imports, 3703 Industry, 3513 Refiners, prices, 3245 Season, vessels for, 1489 West Indies, from, 2255, 3699
Sully, Quebec, station, 1822
Summary Cases, Fees, 3006. See Criminal Code Amdt.
Superannuation. See Civil Service, Superannuation; Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill
Supplementary Estimates, 1618. See also Estimates Inquiry for, 3741
Supplementary Extradition Convention with the United States. See Extradition
Supreme Court. See also Canada Temperance Act Bill
Appeal to in Criminal cases, 3006 Appointment of Mr. Mignault, 356 Exemption of Salary of Chief Justice, 2118 See also Judges Act Amdt. Bill Gold Seal Liquor Co., appeal. See Canada Temperance
Judges. See Judges Act Amdt. Bill Privy Council appeals, 1089. See also that title
Supply Bills. See Appropriation Acts
Supply. See also Interim Supply
Committee of, 562, 917, 1215, 1330, 1385, 1442,	1617,	1652,	1736,	1979,	2076,	2234,2270,	2275,	2356,	2378,	2568,	2680,	2736,2781,	2800,	2889,	2940,	2945,	3014,	3055,3068,	3127,	3776,	3973,	4010,	4070,	4117,
4288, 4494, 4544
Supply, Committee of
Amendments
Canadian National Railways-Information-M. (Mr. King) 1178, neg. 1215 Prime Ministers' Conference Amdt. (Mr. King) 2626, neg. 2679 Reciprocity with the United States Amdt. (Mr. Fielding) 2038, neg. 2075 Representation in Parliament Amdt. (Mr. King) 1293, neg. 1329 Closure. See that title Concurrence, 4541, 4576 En bloc, 2006
Estimates. See also that title Committee on, 2193
Justice-without consent estimates cannot be considered, 1073
Supply-Committee of-Con.
Interim Supply. See that title Non-confidence motions. See Representation in Parliament One-sixth vote. See Interim Supply Procedure in
Business for "to-morrow", 1025 Resolution introducing money bill should be preceded by notice, 1676 Rule 17C. See House of Commons Subjects and items discussed:
Accredited herd, 4506-13 Agriculture, 4506 Entomology, 1024
International Institute of Agriculture, 1116
Live stock, 923, 1116 Publications, 1074 Salaries and contingencies, 917 Air Board, 3776
Alderson, Mr. George B., claim of. See that title Archives, 4533 Canada Grain Act, 1442 Canada Temperance Act, 4533 Canadian Forestry Association, 4494 Canadian Government Merchant Marine, 1272, 2076
Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, 2164
Canadian National Railways, 1004, 4131, 4169, 4288, 4313, 4334, 4561 Canadian National Research Institute, 4555. See also under this title Scientific Canadian Northern loan,, 3037 Canadian Press, Limited, 4533 Canadian representation in the United States, 2378
Canals, 2025, 2602, 2953, 2960, 2966-98 Civil Service Bonus, 4534
Reclassification, 4541, 4555 Courtenay Bay improvements. 4097 Customs and Inland Revenue, 2SS9, 3077, 4117
Destructive Insect and Pest Act, 1027 4512
Dockyards, 4036 Dredging, 3982 Entomology, 1024 Exchequer Court, 1083 Experimental farms, 922, 928, 931, 932-36, 945, 4512
External affairs, 2437
Fish-breeding establishments, 2185, 4036 Fish inspection, 2182 Fishery officers and gua dians, 2177 Fisheries patrol service, 2177


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Supply-Committee of-Con.
Subjects and items discussed.-Con Fishery problems, scientiiic investigation, 2188
Fisheries protection service, 4036 Flax, 931
Geological Survey, 2141-8, 2162 Government Shipbuilding Programme, 2076. See also under this title, Shipbuilding
Grand Trunk Loan, 4131, 4168, 4288, 4313, 4144, 4334
Harbours and Rivers, 3973-82, 4097, 4536 Nova Scotia, 3989 Prince Edward Island, 3990 Health, 2940, 3127
Health of Animals, 926, 1048, 4506-13.
See also under this title, Live Stock High Commissioner's office, 2437 Highways, 4289 Housing, 4552
Immigration and Colonization, 2568-2602, 3055, 3077, 4127, 4131 Imperial Mineral Resources Bureau, 4498 Indian Affairs, 2167, 2171, 4501 Interior, 1330
International Fisheries Commission, Fraser River, 2189 Justice, 1076 Labour, 4170, 4544
Emergency relief, 4535 Lake of the Woods Control Board, 2437 League of Nations, 2356 Lighthouse and coastal service, 1994, 2174, 4040 Lignite, 4499
Live Stock Branch, 923, 1116. See also under this title, Health of Animals Marine, 1617, 1736, 1979, 2190 Marine Biological Board, 2189 Marine estimates, notice of closure, 1979 Migratory Birds, 4496 Militia, 2275, 2438, 2781 Annual drill, 2294 Cadet services, 2296 Clothing and necessities, 2305 Command pay
M. (Mr. Power) to reduce, 2291 Permanent Force, 2797-2800 Salaries, 2234, 2275 Mines, 2141, 2162 National Parks, 4495 Naval Service, 4010
" Niobe " and "Rainbow", sale, 4010-36 Northwest Territories, explorations, 4494 Ocean and River Service, 1736, 1979 Oyster culture, 2177 Paris agency, 2437
Parliament buildings, 3992, 4040, 4070
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Supply-Committee of-Con.
Subjects and items discussed.-Con Passport office, 2436 Penitentiaries, 1096 Pensions, 2236-78 Post Office, 3003, 4514 Outside Service, 4528 Public buildings, rents, repairs, etc., 4090 Public Works, 2680, 2736, 2808, 2945, 3973, 4070-9, 4535
Quarantine stations, 2754-68 Salaries, 2680, 4079 Shipbuilding, 1858
Railways and Canals, 1652, 3014, 4131, 4288
Railway Commission, 3016 Relief of distressed seamen, 4039	.
Roads and bridges, 3986 Royal Canadian Navy, 4010 Royal Military College, 2802 St. Lawrence Ship Channel, 4541 Scientific institutions, 4494 Secretary of State, 4534, 4557 Shipbuilding, 1857, 2076 Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment, 4532 Soldier Settlement, 4532 Telegraphs and Telephones, 3987 Telegraph lines, 4539 Trade and Commerce Bounties, 1385 Canada Grain Act, 1442 Salaries, 1215
Trent canal, 2025, 2606, 2953, 2966 Welland canal, 2025, 2493, 2960-98 Yukon Territory, 1087
Sutherland, Mr. Donald (South Oxford) Alderson, Mr. George B., claim of, 924, 1052, 2270-4, 4508
Animals slaughtered for export trade, 1051 Budget, 3584. Railway construction, 3585; industrial enterprise; class organization, 3586; Prime Minister and Progressive party, 3587; Grain Growers' Company, 3587; mill feeds, adulteration, 3589; foodstuffs and free list; farmers' sons and military service; Mr. King and the Government, 3593; Liberal platform of 1919, 3594; Farmers' party and record of Prime Minister, 3595
Butter importations, 3749 Cattle embargo, 706, 764 Dairy Products Grading Bill, 4441-8 Experimental farms, 928, 931-6
Agricultural publications and, 1076 Flax industry, 1395 Grasshoppers, destruction of, 1030 Health of Animals, 1052-67; 2270-4
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Sutherland, Mr. Donald-Con.
Highway construction in Ontario, 4296-4306
Illustration farms and stations in Ontario, 953, 956
Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 610 Lake of the Woods Regulation Bill, 4219 Oleomargarine Act Amdt. Bill, 3872-95; amdt. 3887
Oleomargarine, importation of materials, 3747
Parliament buildings, 3996 Return, alleged incomplete, 2250, 2270 Returned Soldiers, Special Committee, 783 Tubercular cattle, slaughtering of, 1051 Unemployment and Immigration, 1369 Veterinary Director General, 4508-13. See also under this title, Alderson White grub, destruction by, 1030 Swan, Mr. D. D.f consulting engineer, 1997 Tadoussac-Murray Bay Steamship Service M. (Mr. Casgrain) 1528, 1822, 1825, 1930 Taft, The Hon. William H., 3205 Tailors, Sales Tax, 3955 Tampico, Government vessel at, 1716 Tappert, Rev. N., qu. 1673 Tariff, 7, 96, 125, 130, 132, 136, 147, 155, 161, 162, 167, 175, 181, 211, 218, 238, 241, 251, 256,	263,	272,	285,	296,	315,	322,	337,350,	353,	371,	388,	394,	398,	412,	528,559,	417,	437,	432,	570,	476,	479,	48l!
See also Address; Canada-West Indies; Customs; French Trade Agreement; Special War Revenue; Ways and Means
Changes, 2938-55, 3119, 3121, 3696, 3725. See	also	Customs	and	Excise Dept
Bill
Commission, 3055, 3241, 3640 Rice Jones, Mr. Cecil, evidence before, 418. See also Rice Jones Report, inquiry for, 1127, 3055 Legislation, 3118 Policy, 1878
Preferential, with West Indies, 2251 Protective, 1285
Reciprocity Agreement with United States -Amdt. (Mr. Fielding) 2038, neg. 2075 Reduction of-Amdt. (Mr. Fielding) to Budget, 3155, neg. 3686 Resolutions, 3121. See also Customs Tariff; Ways and Means Revision of, 2, qu. 903, 2346, 3150, 3159, 3160, 3220, 3342, 3392, 3420, 3482, 4254. See also United States, Young Emergency Tariff
Tar Sand Rights, Genera] Lindsay, qu 671 834


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Volume IV:: Taxation. See also Revenue Bills Banks, qu. 2192, 3664 Burdensome, 1292
Business profits, 484, qu. 576, 3120, 3253, 3445
Cost of collection, 2100 Direct, 3147, 4344
Excise, qu. 1236, 3120. See also Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Forms-revision, qu. 1237 Income Tax. See also that title Appointments to staff, 2106 Collections in Saskatchewan, qu. 2028 Farmers from, in each province, qu. 569 Incomes of over $200,000 qu. 838 Instructions in French, qu. 2624 Penalties, qu. 2100
Preparation of return and computation of tax, 2567 Regulations, 1272 Returns, 2625, 3147 And penalty, 2101 Tax-payers-farmers, qu. 838 Taxes for 1920, qu. 2821 Income and Business Profits, cost of administration, qu. 837 Inconsistencies in, 3550 Indirect, 3221
Land. See Land Taxation Law stamps, 1090 Job printers, 4123
Luxury, qu. 402, 600, 1191, 3114, 3285, 3445 Abolition, 1185 Motorbus, remission, qu. 603 Mutual companies, qu. 605 Postal war tax, 4515 Provinces, 3705-6, 3742 Railways, 1008
Sales, 3120, 3372, 3485, 3545, 3735-52-54, 3957. See also Special War Revenue Act Amdt.
Collections, qu. 2506, qu. 3830 Sales by farmers, 3956 Three main principles of, 3221
Taxation of Judges. See Judges Act Arndt-Bill
Teakle, Mr. R. B., 1934
Telegraphs and Telephones, 3988, 4539
Cape Breton, 3987 Government business, 4130 Isle aux Coudres, extension, 4540 Loretteville-St. Gerard, 4539
Telephones. See also Marine Signal Service Berthierville, qu. 1233 Kamouraska and Temiscouata Co., 2175 Service, 4093


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INDEX-1921 cxxxv
[Stage Direction]
Temiscouta
Indians 2168 Telephones 2175
Temperance Act, prescriptions under, 3730. See also Canada Temperance Act
Tenders. See Purchasing Commission
Terminal Elevators, 277-79, 1442. See also Canada Grain Act; Grain; Wheat Maintenance, 1463 Overages, 3634
Textiles. See Trade
Thanksgiving Day, date of, qu. 2098- See also Armistice Day Bill
Theft, Motor cars of. See Criminal Code Amdt.
Thessalon wharf 3975
Thompson, Mr. Alfred (Yukon)
Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill 4480 League of Nations, 55
Mail contract, White Horse-Dawson, qu. 2686
National Research Institute 2698-2700 Natural resources, 851 Proportional representation, 1553 Rulings as Chairman;
Member in order in reading from newspaper, 1891
Tedious repetition, 1892
Thompson, Mr. T. H. (East Hastings)
Dairy Products Grading Bill, 4441-7
Thomson, Mr. Levi (Qu'Appelle)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 345; congratulations to Prime Minister; country's obligations to returned soldiers; conscription; United Grain Growers, Limited, 345; marketing of grain; sale of implements and other commodities; two party vs. group system; proportional representation 346; the amendment; different premises but same conclusion; confidence of the country; by-elections; consequences of vote on amendment, 348; no confidence in Government; the tariff, 350
Agricultural shows, 1241
Ames, Sir Herbert, resignation, 1317
Automobile theft, 3914
Budget, 3310. Sales tax and valuation of foreign imports; Canadian Reconstruction Association, 3312; protective
Thomson, Mr. Levi-Con.
Budget-Con.
tariff for industries, 3315; free trade, 3315; raising of revenue; land tax, 3317
Cattle embargo, 714
Criminal Code Amdt. Bill, 3897-9, 3914-35 Crushed grains, 3746 Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Free trade, 4419 Indirect increase in tariff, 4419 Trade agents, 3808 Valuation for duty, 4419 Customs drawbacks, qu. 2375 Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill Candidate, death of, 3095 Disqualified voters, 3098 Foreign-born wives and children of British subjects, 3104 Forms, 4228-47
Naturalization-certificate of qualification, 4237
" Personal naturalization ", 4245 Recount, 3097 Revising officers, 3102 Dominion notes and gold reserve, qu. 1234 Farmers and protected interests, 3751 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 751 Justice Department Law-clerk stenographers, 1078 Maisonneuve and Gaspd. representation, 2335
Military preparation, 2300 Point of order-member must accept statement, 3629
Proportional representation, 1534 Reciprocity agreement with United States, 2064
Representation in Parliament, 1317 Trade commissioners in the United States, 1465, 1484
Welland canal, construction, 2980 Wheat Board, 1453
Position of Mr Crerar, 1460
Three Card Monte. See also Criminal Code Amdt., 3921
Thunder Bay, Ice-breaking, 2174
Thursdays and Fridays, Rule 17C. See
House of Commons, Estimates
Ticket-of-Leave, case of W. H. Tapley, res. (Mr. Casgrain) 970
Tilley, Mr. W. N., K.C , qu. 1001. See also Grand Trunk Arbitration
Timber. See also Forestry Culling, 1426 Ontario limits, 3391 Tobique reserve, cutting on, 4503
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[Stage Direction]
cxxxvli
Tolmie, Hon. S. F.-Con.
Live Stock-Con.
Commission men, 1122 Marketing, 1039
Pure-bred animals, distribution of, 948 Rescue policy, 1119
Migratory Birds Convention Act Arndt. Bill, 2442, 2891, 4496
Mines and Geological Survey, 2141, 2162-G.' Municipalities-cold storage. 1040 Oleomargarine Act Arndt. Bill, 563, 385096, 3905
Pacific coast trade, 3649
Politics, participation in by public officials, 4503
Potato diseases, 1032 Refrigerator cars for fish, 1038 Seed Branch, 1125 Seed Grain 4506
Sheridan, Mr. John, resignation and reinstatement, 2173, 4501-5 Spruce bud worm, 1031 Surveyors, pamphlets for, 1335 Tourist traffic, 4495 Wool grading, 1121-2
Tonnage into Canadian ports, 3650. See also Shipping
Toronto
Customs building, qu. 3772, 4095 Customs officials, 1351 Harbour improvements, 687 Post Office
Appointments, qu. 734 Promotions, qu. 1673 Shipyards, 1889 University. See Research
Torrance, Dr. See Hog Cholera
Tourist Traffic, 4495.
Tractors, free, 3509. See also Agricultural Machinery
Trade. See pIso Board of Trade; Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement; Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; French Trade Agreement; Steamship services Africa with, 1468, 1965
Agents and Commissioners, 525, 1392, 146477, 2893, 3460-2, 3785-3809. See also Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Buenos Aires, 3794-8 Europe, in, 1473
United States, in, 512, qu. 1001, 1473, 3460. See also United States Aggregate, 3115
Australia and New Zealand, 1223-4, 1468 British preference, 3699
Trade-Con.
Chamber of commerce, 1224 Development of, 1466 Export, 1688, 1712, 1732
Canadian Government Merchant Marine, by, 1276-77 Expansion, 1276 Figures, 3349 Foreign, 1221-1225
Canadian enterprise in, 3409 Imports, value, 3310 Invoice certificate, 4389 France, with. See French Trade Agreement
German. See Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; Customs Tariff
Gillies Bros., Limited, letter on restriction of, 4418
Great Brtain with, 3116 Imported goods, marking, 3938. See also Customs Tariff
International Trade Conference, 2151 Report, 4541 Restrictions, 4418 Routes, 1888
Rates on. See Canadian Government Merchant Marine Russia, with, 1003, 1072, 1224 South Africa, with, 1468, 1965 Treaties. See Canada-West Indies; French Trade Agreement; Reciprocity United States. See that title West Indies 1271, 1275, 1870, 2251. See also Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement
Trade and Commerce
Department
Bounties. See that title Canada Grain Act, administration, 1442 Demography, Chief of, 1232 Dominion Statistician, 1231 Employees, 1218
Moving pictures, 599, 1225, 1467, 1558 Artists and Lecturers, 1225, 1232 Patent and Copyright Branch, 1496 Salaries, 1215 Increases, 1218 Statistical Branch, 1231 Subsidized steamers, 1712. See also Steamship Services Weekly bulletins, 1220 Weights and Measures, 1485
Trade Mark and Design Act Arndt. Bill
lr„ 229; withdrawn, 2891
Trades and Labour Congress. See Labour, National Catholic Unions Platform of, 1634
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Trahan, Mr. Arthur (Nicolet)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 223; disregard of rights of French language, 223; religious holidays; violation of pledge given by Sir Robert Borden; Prime Minister's professed friendship for Quebec, 224; attack on leader of Opposition and his supporters t military imperialism the mailed fist of commerce and industry; agriculture, the basis of industrial stability; industrialism fraught with danger; the "crisis of moral sense"; Pensions Act; the Prime Minister still a "downright imperialist"; Mr. Gauthier and the Minister of Marine; Quebec will remember 1917; War-time Elections Act; Government shows contempt for rights of Parliament and people; Peace Treaty; country's credit involved without the consent of Parliament, 226; Purchasing Commission; Canadian Navy; League of Nations; Prime Ministers' Conference, 227; Imperial defence; divorce; Quebec, 228; Government undeserving of confidence, 229 Civil Service Ascension day, 2775 Civil Service Act Amdt. Bill, 4484-89 Holidays, amdt. 4484 European credits, qu. 2622 Finance. See also that title Accounts with Great Britain, qu. 2622 Dominion note issues, qu. 2621 Expenditure accounts, qu. 2621 Investments " other " and " non-active ", qu. 2619
Public debt-non-active miscellaneous banking accounts, 2621 Repayment of $25,000,000 loan, qu. 2622 Revenue accounts, qu. 2620 Income tax returns, 2625 International Financial Conference, qu. 1237
St. Simon station agent, qu. 3208
Trains, Cancellation of. See Canadian National Railways
Tramp Steamers. See Canadian Government Merchant Marine
Transcontinental Railway. See Canadian National Railways
Transferable Votes. See Proportional Representation
Translation of French Speeches. See House of Commons; Debates; French language
Transportation, 738. See olsoCanals; Grain and grain trade; Great Lakes-St. Lawrence; Railways; St. Lawrence river
Difficulties, 3567
Car shortage, 512, 548, 3541, 4322
Rail and water, 484
Res. (Mr. Keefer) 674; withdrawn, 756
Travelling Expenses of Judges. See Judges Act Amdt. Bill
Treaties. See also Canada-West Indies; Extradition; Canadian Representation in United States; French Trade Agreement
Extradition between Canada and United States, 2687
Migratory Birds Treaty, 2892. See also that title
Negotiation of, 2387
Tremblay, Edouard- See Quebec Riots
Trent Canal. See Canals-
Tributes to Deceased Members. See House
of Commons
Trowers, Miss Catherine, qu. 1131
Trustees, remuneration of. See Bankruptcy Act Amdt. Bill
Tubercular Cattle. See Health of Animals
Tuberculin Test, 1049
Tuberculosis, Prevention of, Canadian Association, grant, 3142
Turgeon, Mr. O. (Gloucester)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 144; congratulations to mover and seconder; the new Prime Minister, 144; the "Great Liberal" dead but spirit survives; the world in an abnormal condition; Prime Minister's reasons for not holding general election; Government has forfeited confidence of country, 145; reasons for formation of Union Government; Government elected for term of war and demobilization, 146; people clamouring forelection; tariff; increase of railway rates, 147; redistribution, representation of rural and urban communities, 148; increased production and population, 149
Budget, 3447. Financial conditions and Government policy, 3447; tariff revision, 3448; value of home market, 3449; luxury taxes; taxation of lumber; tariff and protectionist spirit. 3450; income tax, 3451; free trade and


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Turgeon, Mr. 0.-Con.
Budget-Con.
Agrarian party, 3452; Brussels Conference; taxation of unemployed land. 3453
Caraquet Gulf Shore Railway extension, 4338
Civil Service bonus, 2112 Civil Service (Res. Sir Sam Hughes! Political patronage in; Civil Service Commission; classification, 825; exercise of patronage by members; outside service, 826 Grain exported, 3054
Great Lakes-St. Lawrence waterway, 745 Intercolonial Railway, 4568 Lumber, sales tax on, 3450, 3743 Maritime Provinces, improved railway facilities, 4568
Privilege

Hon. Mr. Veniot, 3740 Railway situation, 3039 Shipbuilding, 1951
Turnover, Tax on. See Sales Tax
Tweedie, Mr. T. M. M- (Calgary West) Canada Temperance Act Bill Costs, 4387
Gold Seal Liquor Company vs. Dominion Express Co., 4379 Proclamation, omission of date, 4379 Rights of others than litigants affected, 4379
Strict compliance with statute, 4380 Vote, 4379
Canadian National Railways
Special Committee, reference to, M. (Mr. Meighen) 1789
Canadian representation in the United States, 2411-14
Cattle, slaughtered, compensation, 1061 Chief Justice, salary of, 1566 Civil Service Act Arndt. Bill, 2833-84 Criminal Code Arndt. Bill, 3926 Punishments, 695, 2228 Dairymen, loss to through destruction of ' cattle, 1061
De Martigny divorce, 3765-7 Estimates, Committee on, 2202 Excessive or inadequate punishments, 695, 1857, 2228
Inspection of Gas and Gas Meters Bill, 619 Opium and Narcotic Drug Act Arndt. Bill. 2904
Natural Resources-transfer to western provinces, 2547-49 Pensions, widowed mothers, 636 Public buildings in Nova Scotia, 2744 Tubercular cattle, destruction of, 1061
Typhus
Epidemic in Europe, 4534 Precautions, 643. See ulso Immigration Under Secretaries. See Ministers Unemployment, 2, 3203, 3259, 3367, 3811-12, 4361. See also Address; Budget; Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; jHousing; Immigration; Labour; Returned Soldiers; Shipbuilding Emergency relief for, qu. 2623, 4535 Employment offices, 4363 Extent of, 4549 Housing loan, 4552 Immigration, suspension of
M. (Mr. Deslauriers. 1351; withdrawn, 1380
Insurance, 2, 9, 231, 237, 263, 284, 395, 4547. See also Address
Labour and, 1373. See ulso Labour National Advisory Council, 4363 Relief, qu. 570, 4550
Emergency, qu. 2623, 4535 Returned soldiers, 4048 Peterborough in, qu. 4253 Shipbuilding, 1727, 1882, 1897, 1902, 1909 Quebec at, 1986
Unified Buying. See Canada Grain Act
Union Service Fund, qu. 2192
United Farmers of Ontario, 791, 3199, 3592, 4297, 4301. See also Drury Railway nationalization, 1787
United Grain Growers, Limited, 289, 316, 331, 346, 417, 3662. See also Grain and Grain Trade, Progressive Party Commercial activities, 516 Dockages, 3633-34
Lambert, Mr. Norman. See Lambert Lumber business, 3633
Rice Jones, Mr. Cecil, 289, 290, 333, 417,
.	3180, 3492
Sale of American implements, 346, 418, 491, 3372. See also Speeches on Address; Budget
United States. See ulso Ambassador; Canadian Representation; Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; Reciprocity; Trade Annexation with, 1483
Attitude of Southern States on protection, 3458
Boots and shoes, Canadian in, 1225 Borrowings from, 3266 Canadian dollar, value in, 3087 Canadian Government Merchant Marine cargoes, 1689, 1722. See also that title Canadian War Mission, 3388, 2400 Capital invested in Canada, 3219
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United States-Con.
Coal from, 1248. See also Fuel Supply Problem
Coal mines owned by Canadian Rys., 4317 Commercial agents in, 1473 Constitution, comparison with, 1166 Consular service, 1475, 3460, 3796. See also Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; Trade Customs regulations, 3817, 4417 Emigration to, 3068 Exchange rate, 3167
Extradition Treaty with, 2687, 3008, 3207. See also Extradition Convention Tabled, 3207
Farming, competition in, 3187 Fordney Bill, 512, 3239, 3368, 3442. See also under this title Young Emergency Tariff
French Canadians in, 1483, 3675 Grand Trunk Railway Amount due, 4135 Lines in, 4326
Immigration, 1360, 3064, 3068, 3072 Commissioner, 3059 Restrictions, 1357
Importation of farm implements from, 417, 492, 3372, 3409
Migratory Birds Treaty, 2892. See also that title
Nolan Act, patents, 4454 Patent legislation, 4454-60 Pecuniary Claims Convention, qu. 1817. See also that title
Premium on American money, 3087 Progress in farming, 3188 Pure bred cattle, 1049 Railways, 1007, 1576 Cost of operation, 1576 Government control, 1583 Systems and freight vessels, 1730-31 Reciprocity with. See also Address; Budget, 268, 297, 1481, 2038, 2045, 2058, 2066, 2075, 2393 Relations with, 400, 3245 Shipbuilding, 1288. See also that title Tariff, 3456. See also under this head, Fordney, Young Emergency Canadian duties, 4254 Tariff legislation, 3118, 3342 Tinplate industry, 3326
Trade agents in, qu. 1001, 1219. See also under this title Consular Service Agents in Canada, 1221. See also Customs and Excise Dept. Bill; Trade Trade with, 1482, 3460, 4397-4400. See also that title Barriers to, 3599
United States-Con.
Young Emergency Tariff Bill, 2905, 3160, 3115, 3352, 3809
Rumoured new tariff resolutions, 3905
United States Transportation Act, 1007
Universities, Scientific work at. See Research
Unopposed Motions for Returns, 578, 606, 674, 767, 840, 1134, 1238, 1350, 1502, 1625, 1821, 2193, 2346, 2507, 2821, 3090, 3423, 2772
Upper Chamber. See Ministers Upper Crossing, St. Roch light, qu. 1383 Uruguay, seizure of Nova Scotia vessel, 1527 Vacancies. See House of Commons Vallee, Dr., case of, 3131 Vancouver Island
Canadian National Railways on, qu. 3422 Returned soldiers and shipbuilding, 1727
Vegetable Insects, 1027
Vegetables, Root, Inspection and Sale, 4343
Venereal Diseases, 3127
Veniot, Hon. P. J., 3637, 3688, 3717, 3740. See also York-Sunbury
Verret, Colonel Hector, 4525
Versailles Treaty. See League of Nations; Patent Act Arndt. Bill
Verville, Mr- Alphonse (St. Denis)
Housing loan, 4552 Income tax collections, qu. 569 Unemployment, 4550 Emergency appropriation for, qu. 2623
Vessel Rates.. See Railway Act Arndt. Bill
Vessels. See also Canadian Government Merchant Marine; Shipbuilding Canadian National Railway, qu. 1348 Commandeered, qu. 2943 Names of "Brant", 1982
" Canadian Beaver," qu. 1673, 1862 " Canadian Conqueror," qu. 1381 " Canadian Explorer," 1714 "Canadian Inventor", 1890 " Canadian Mariner ", 1713, 1715 " Canadian Otter," qu. 1382 " Canadian Pioneer," qu. 1382, 1689, 1722, 1894


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Vessels-Con.
Names of-Con.
" Canadian Planter ", qu. 2942 " Canadian Rancher ", 1716 " Canadian Ranger," qu. 1382, 1863 " Canadian Recruit," qu. 575, qu. 1381, 1382, 1703, 1863 " Canadian Runner ", 1715 " Canadian Sapper ", qu. 734 " Canadian Seigneur," qu. 1382, 1863 " Canadian Squatter ", 1894 " Canadian Voyageur ", qu. 1381, 1382, 1716, 1894
"Champlain", 1980, 1983, 1995 "Druid", 1980, 1984 " Esperanto ", 4341
" Lake Champlain ", ice-breaker, 2174 " Laurentian ", qu. 1348 " Marie Lydia ", 1985 " Montcalm," ice-breaker, 1985 " Muriel W.", 1990 " Narhethong ", 2175 "Neophyte", 1966 "Niobe", qu. 671, 4010-36, 4041 " Rainbow ", qu. 671, 4010-36, 4041 " Scandinavian ", 1498, 1556 Seagoing, tonnage, 3650 Service, in, qu. 568 Wooden, 1714, 1728, 1871 Veterinary Director General, 4508-13. Sec also Alderson; Health of Animals Veterinary Inspector General, 4513 Veterinary Inspectors. See Health of Animals
Veterinary Surgeons. Sec Health of Animals
Vice-Admiralty
Judges, 1084
Registrar in Quebec district, 1086 Vickers' Shipyards, 1967
Victoria
Drydock, 265
Contract for, qu. 565 Shipbuilding, qu. 599
Victoria Day, adjournment. Sec House of Commons, Adjournments
Victoria Bridge, widening, 300
Victory Bonds, 1285, 3444. See also Finance Expenses, qu. 1620 Government investment in, 1704
Vien, Mr. Thomas (Lotbiniere)
Address in reply to Governor Generals' Speech, 430; Tribute to the late Thomas P. Owens, Editor of Debates; the late Mr. Gladu; does majority in the House reflect public opinion?; the Govern-
Vien, Mr. Thomas-Con.
Address-Con.
ment's mandate, 430; Government elected in 1917 to enforce Military Service Act; the question of confidence; Liberal members of Cabinet; tenure morally at an end; Prime Minister's argument, 431; tariff, 432; fiscal policy of Liberal party; Farmer's platform; refusal of Canadian Manufacturers to sell to farmers' organizations, 434; Minister of Immigration; Canada's status; unity a real element of nationhood; Sir Wilfrid Laurier; dissolution, 436
Administration of Justice, Yukon territory, 1087
Agricultural shows, 1240 Bankruptcy Act, Judges under, 1085 Canadian Bar Association, 1095 Canadian Government Merchant Marine Administration, 1441 Insurance and value, 1278 Vessels in service, qu. 568 Canadian manufacturers and United States trade, 1222
Canadian nationals, 772 Canadian National Railways Conductors, qu. 569 Divisional points, qu. 574 Freight cars, qu. 568 Operating expenses, qu. 1131 Policy and history of, not in order, 1773 Service between Winnipeg and Quebec, qu. 569
Special Committee, reference to M. (Mr. Meighen) 1768, 1779 Transcontinental, transportation of grain, 2984
Canadian Record, 1438
Canadian representation in the United States, 2386
Canadian Wheat Board Bill, 2159 Cattle and horse breeding, 1118 Cattle embargo, qu. 709 Civil Service
Bonus and reclassification, 1463 Copyright-Bill not printed in French, 649 County Fairs, assistance to, 1123 De Martigny divorce, 4078 Director of Commercial Intelligence, 1219 Dominion Lands Act Amdt. Bill, 4062-6 Estimates
Before item passes question should be put in Com., 1091 Discussion of, 1230 Experimental farms, 939 . Flax industry, 1408
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Vien, Mr. Thomas-Con.
Fortifications of Quebec, 970 Gilmour and Hughson Bill, 1096 Grand Trunk loan, 4134-51 Grand Trunk loan, 4134-51 Hudson Bay Railway, 989 Iron ores, 1436 Law stamps, tax, 1090 Linen yarns, 1407 Loans, domestic, qu. 566 Judges
Ad hoc, and Admiralty, 1084 Yukon territory, 1088 Justice Department Purchasing Commission and, 1103 Maisonneuve and Gasp 6 representation, 2319
Parliament buildings, 4077 French inscription, qu. 568 Penitentiaries, 1115
Purchasing of supplies, 1097, 1104, 1107 Pierreville postmistress, qu. 3422	,
Point of order-statement misquoted, 2231 Polish battalion for service in French army, 4058
Privy Council-"Insular" tribunal of England, 1090
Purchasing Commission, 1098, 1103, 1114 Civil Service Commission and, 1100 Railways and Canals, annual report, qu. 697 Research Council, 1436 Russia, trade with, inquiry, 1072 St. Croix and St. Antoine wharves, 2616 Searls, Mr. George, grain inspection, 1444 Soldiers' pensions, insurance and re-establishment, 4058
Trade commissioners in United States, 1220 Trent canal, 2953, 2978, 2606-17 Yeniot correspondence, 3719 Vice Admiralty, registrar, salary, 1086 Welland canal, construction, 2978 Wheat Board, 1454, 1463, 2159 Winding-up Act Arndt. Bill, 2158 Ville Emard Tunnel, 3677 Vote on Account. See Interim Supply Votes. See House of Commons, Divisions Walker, Sir Byron, 2684
Wallace, The Late Mr. Tom G., tribute to, 152
War. See aslo Demobilization; Germany, Reparations
Accounts, Canady-Great Britain, adjustment, qu. 2191
British Remount Commission, qu. 4341 Canada's share, 3583
Canadian Mission in the United States, 2388, 2400
War-Con.
Claim of Canadian citizens, qu. 1820
History, qu. 1625
Indemnity, 3195
Loans, 3246. See also that title
Reparations. See Germany
Scandals, 3509
Surplus supplies, disposal of, qu. 736 Union Service Fund, qu. 2192 War Measures Act, 4459. See also Purchasing Commission
War Purchasing Commission, 2309. See also Purchasing Commission War Times Election Act, 217, 322 Perpetuation of, 4238-40 Washington. See Ambassador at; Canadian Representation in the United States; Prime Ministers' Conference
Water Powers. See also Lake of the Woods Canadian General Electric Company, 2607 Conservation Commission, 3960-70 Development of, 844 Director of, 1346	.
Films showing, 1467 Great Lakes-St. Lawrence. See that title Lake of the Woods, 4171. See also that title Trent canal, 2954-64
Waterways. See Canals; Transportation Commission. See International Joint Commission
Great Lakes-St. Lawrence, 674, 738 Chicago Drainage Canal diversion, 186, 2225
Watson, Dr., Chief Pathologist. 1050
Ways and Means, Committee of, 562, 2100. 3688, 3698, 3719, 3726, 3733, 3741. See also Budget; Tariff Resolutions, printing of, 3207
Webster, Hon. Senator, 1990
Wednesday Sittings. See House of Commons, Sittings
Weed Seeds, 289 Weekly Bulletins, 1220 Weights and Measures, 1485 Welland, Binder twine factory, 3227 Welland Canal. See Canals
West Durham Election, 1324
West Indies. See also Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement Cable, 1438
Canadian Government Merchant Marine ships, 1913. See also that title


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West Indies-Con.
Canadian ships for, 1870 Conference of 1920, 1870, 2252 Customs tariff, goods under, 3698. See also that title
Importations, preference, 3698, 3704 Preferential tariff, 3704 Proposed union with, 2254 Steamship service, 1275, 1488, 1712, 1714, 2253-62
Sugar imports from, 3699-3700 Trade with, 1271, 1275, 1870, 2251
West Indies Trade Agreement. See Canada-West Indies
Western Canada
Antelope in, qu. 1134 Colonization Association, 2583 Natural Resources. See that title
Western Dominion Railway Company, 3343. See Private Bills
Western Provinces and Natural Resources
M. (Mr. Campbell) 2519. See also Natural Resources
Wharves and Breakwaters, for individual wharves. See their titles Cape Breton, 4103 Lighting of, 1929 Repairs to, 1971
Wheat. See also Canada Grain Act; Canadian Wheat Board; Elevators; Grain and Grain Trade; Transportation Consumption and production, 3369 Credit to Belgium for purchase of, qu. 1001 Crop of 1920, 438 Marketing, 342, 346 Marquis, 1033
Milling in bond in United States, 3368 Pool, 391
Price of, 369, 3395 Rust, 341
Whipping. See Criminal Code Arndt.; Opium and Narcotic Drug
White, Sir Thomas, 451, 477. See also Leeds Resignation of, 1619 Status of, 69, 463, 469, 477, 1294, 1326
White, Mr. W. H. (Victoria, Alta.)
Address in reply to Governor General's Speech, 548; congratulations to Prime Minister: grievances of the West; car shortage; Commission to investigate grain trade, 549; sentiment of the West; the Agrarian group, 550 Agricultural implements, 3394 Blood Indian reserve, qu. 1818, qu. 1819, qu. 2098, qu. 2374
Budget, 3538. Alberta's representation in [DOT] House; Government regulation of oil
White, Mr. W. H.-Con.
Budget-Con.
and petroleum resources, 3539; inadequate transportation facilities in West, 3540; freight cars for grain shipments. 3541; agricultural implements, 3544 Canadian National Railways Car shortage,- 548, 3541, 4322 Western representation on Board, 4315 Canadian Pacific Railway, patents to lands, qu. 2821
Cattle embargo, 704
Dominion Elections Act Amdt. Bill, 4234-5 Naturalization-certificate of qualification, 4236
Immigration, 2574-9 Immigration Act Amdt. Bill, 3823-6 Reciprocity agreement with the United States, 2071
Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act Amdt. Bill, 2484
Soldier Settlement Board, qu- 673 Transportation charges on stock feed, qu. 2686
White Cross. See Burnham, Dr.
White Dog Rapids, 4172 White Grub, destruction by, 1030 Whitehead Life-saving station, 1991 White Horse, Judge at, 1088 Whitley Councils. See Civil Service ' Wholesalers. See Sales Tax Widowed Mothers. See Pensions Wife Desertion. See Extradition
Wigmore, Hon. R. W. (Minister of Customs and Inland Revenue)
Civil Service Retirement Act Amdt. Bill, 2500-01
Customs and Excise Dept. Bill Amalgamation of departments, 3821 Brokers, 4432 Certificate, form of, 3799 Explanation by Minister, 3786 New and unused goods, 3813 Preventive service, Victoria county, 4388 Provincial analysts' certificate, 3788-90 Valuation for duty, 4411 Customs and Inland Revenue Department ' Belyea, Mr., retirement, 3082 Consolidation of offices, 3083 Estimates, 3077, 4117 Officers, 3083 Nova Scotia, 3096 Overtime, 4123-5 Retiring allowances, 3084
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