TRANSATLANTIC FLIGHT.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. H. H. STEVENS (Vancouver Centre):: Has the Government any definite informa-

tion regarding the reported successful flight of Mr. Hawker, the Australian aviator, who is said to have reached the Irish coast? If this is a fact, will the Government convey the congratulations of this country to both the successful aviator and the Australian Government?


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: We have no
official information, but it was brought to my attention that a despatch had been received stating that a successful flight had been made by this aviator, and before leaving the office I dictated a suitable message of congratulation to Mr. Hawker and to his pilot. Should we have official information later we will be glad to convey it to the House.



THE WINNIPEG STRIKE.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. FRANK S. CAHILL (Pontiac): Has the Government any further report in connection with the Winnipeg strike? I observed in the papers on Saturday that a request was made that the Minister of Labour should go to Winnipeg, and I should like to know what action has been take in the matter.
Hon. A. K. MACLEAN (for the Minister of Labour):: There is nothing particularly
new to report in respect to the Winnipeg strike other than what has appeared in the newspapers. The situation, however, continues quite serious. The bakers and milkmen have been carrying on their business since yesterday, and with certain limitations the restaurants are open to the public. The Minister of Labour (Mr. Robertson) leaves for Winnipeg this evening. He considers that the situation would not have been advantaged had he left sooner.



QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by asterisks.)

Mr. SINCLAIR (Guysborough):: What is the total amount of remuneration paid to Colonel Morris, Commanding Officer of the Internment Camp at Amherst, Nova Scotia?


Major General MEWBURN:: Pay and
Allowances of his rank as an Officer of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, covering a period from 26th October, 1915. to 30th April, 1919,-$12,274.25.
COUNTY COURT JUI>GES.


Mr. SINCLAIR (Guysborough):: 1.	How many County Court Judges are there in the Province of Ontario, both senior and junior ?
2.	What are the respective salaries of a senior and junior judge in Ontario?
3.	How many County Court Judges are in the Province of Nova Scotia?
4.	What salaries are paid to said judges, respectively?


Hon. Mr. MEIGHEN:: 1.	Senior, 36, including 4 vacant judgeships; Junior, 24.
2.	$3,000 each, except the Senior Judge for the County of York, whose salary is. $3,500.
3.	7, including one vacant judgeship,
4.	Judge of County of Halifax, $3,500', others, $3,000 each.


LOANS TO ALLIED COUNTRIES.
Mr. LANCTOT:: 1.	Does the total amount of assets, $1,243,879,381.28, of the Dominion of Canada, as set forth in the Official Gazette, comprise the sums due by Great Britain, and the other Allied countries, to whom loans or advances were made for purchases of munitions, etc.
2.	How much were the loans or advances made to Great Britain and other Allied countries, in this connection, since the 1st of April, 1914?
3.	What were the total loans prior to the 1st of April, 1914?
4.	Have any of said loans, or portions thereof, been paid to Canada? If so, what amount ?
5.	What is the total amount still due?
6.	What portion of the total amount of assets, namely, $1,243,879,381.28, represents the balance remaining unpaid of the loans or advances made by Canada to Great Britain and other Allied countries?


Sir THOMAS WHITE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	$875,313,630.05.
3.	Nil.	.
4.	Yes-$429,975,764.57.
5.	$445,337,865.48. Against this balance must be set off the amount owing by Canada to Great Britain and other allied countries on the same date, $214,133,333.31 leaving a net balance of $231,204,532.17.
6.	Same as No. 5.
NATIONAL SERVICE REGISTRATION__________


HOCHELAGA.
Mr. DESLAURIERS:: Has the Government paid Mr. D. A. Leonard and the employees of Mr. Bruchfisi, registrar for District No. 100, Hochelaga, for their services in connection with National iServiee Regis-traton, iin the month of June, 1948? If not,, why?


Hon. Mr. ROWELL:: Yes.


SAGUENAY AND LABRADOR SERVICE.
Mr. SAYARD:: 1.	Is the Government aware that during last winter the inhabitants of the County of Sague-

nay, between Tadoussac and Labrador, were deprived of communications with the other parts of the Dominion of Canada?
2.	Why was the subsidy previously voted for the maintenance of a crossing between Bay Ste. Catherine, an inlet of the St. Lawrence River, and Tadoussac, revoked?


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN:: 1.	The Department of Trade and Commerce is aware that there w-as no regular subsidized service last winter between Ste. Catherine's Bay and Tadoussac, but it has no information to show what communications, if any, were maintained between the County of Saguenay, from Tadoussac to Labrador, and the other parts of Canada.
2.	This service was considered to be merely a ferry service of local importance, and not one properly chargeable to subsidies devoted to the assistance of trade and commerce.


MR. LOUIS COTE.
Mr. SAVARD:: Has Mr. Louis Cote, a member of the Tribunal of Exemption', No. 66 of Mille-Vaches, been entirely paid for his services in connection therewith? If not, why?


Hon. Mr. MEIGHEN:: Yes.


RURAL MAIL DELIVERIES-VAUDREUIL-SOULANGES COUNTY.
Mr. BOYER:: 1.	What rural mail deliveries have been established in Vaudreuil-Soulanges county?
2.	Where are they situated?
3.	Who are the carriers?
4.	What are their salaries?
5.	When were these deliveries established?
6.	How many subscribers are there to each of such deliveries?


Newton Wesley Rowell: Cedars No. 1, Raphael Menard, $1,116.22, Dec. 6, 1915, 103 boxes; Coteau du Lac No. 1, E. Sauve, $540, July 8, 1916, 37 boxes; Coteau du Lac No. 2, Pierre Leroux, $575, July 1, 1916, 28 boxes; Dalhousie Sta. No. 1 (in part), C. B. Poirier, $670, April 7, 1914, 82 boxes; Dalhousie Sta. No. 2 (in part), Angus A. MacDonald, $850, July 1, 1914, 72 boxes; lie Perrot Nord No. 1, Michael Leduc, $487.50, Dec. 16, 1915, 87 boxes; Point Fortune No. 1 (in part), Peter Mark testate), $737, June 15, 1915, 65 boxes; Rigaud No. 1, P. Chevrier, $495x, Nov. 1, 1915, 33 boxes; Rigaud No. 2, J. Cholette, $595, Nov.
1,	1915, 47 boxes; St. Clet No. 1, Arthur Bour-bonnais, $490, July 8, 1916, 42 boxes; Ste. Justine de Newton No. 1, S. Marcoux, $550, July 1, 1916, 54 boxes; Ste. Marthe No. 1, Victor Du-moulin, $490, Jan. 1, 1917, 44 boxes ; Ste. Marthe No. 2, Isidore Poirier, $500, Jan. 1, 1917, 38 boxes; St. Polycarpe No. 1, Honore Schmidt, $790, Nov. 16, 1914, 57 boxes; St. Polycarpe No.
2,	Louis Cuerrier, $790, March 1, 1915, 66 boxes; St. Telesphore No. 1, Evariste Daoust, $717, Nov. 16, 1914, 48 boxes; VauSreuil No. 1, J. T. Lalonde, $S80.10*, Sept. 1, 1915, 91 boxes.
Plus $1 per annum for each box served.
IM. Savard. ]


MILITARY SERVICE ACT DEFAULTERS.
Mr. LEGER:: For what term of imprisonment were Edgar Allain, Joseph Doucet, Richard Grattin, Maurice O'Brien, Arthur Cormier, Alfred C. Cormier, Joseph Collette and Alfred Leger, all of the county- of Kent, New Brunswick, sentenced, when their cases were tried before His Honour Judge H. M. Ferguson at Rexton, New Brunswick, for breach of the Military Service Act, and what was the fine imposed in each case.


Arthur Meighen: E. R. Allain, $250
and costs or one year; Jos. Doucett, $250 and costs or one year; Richard Gratton, $250 and costs or one year; Maurice O'Brien, $350 and costs or two years; Arthur Cormier, $300 and costs or eighteen months; Alfred Cormier, $250 and costs or one year; Jos. C. Collett, $250 and costs or one year; Eloi Leger, $25 and costs or three months.


JOHN RIDLEY.
[Stage Direction]
Mr. PROULX;
1.	Was one John Ridley of the town of Cornwall in the employ of the Department of Justice during any part of the year 1918?
2.	If so, when did his services begin?
3.	When did his work end?
4.	What amount did he receive for said services?
Hon. Mr. MEIGHEN; 1, 2, 3 and 4. No mention of John Ridley of the town of Cornwall on the records of the Military Service Branch, or Dominion Police Branch.

Mr. SINCLAIR (Queens):: 1.	What were the conditions under which the grants of money were made to the different provinces in 1918, to encourage greater production?
2.	What amount of the $5,000 granted to Prince Edward Island *did the said province receive?
3.	Did Prince Edward Island make any return to the Federal Government stating how the said grant was expended?
4.	If so, how was the said grant expended?
6. If not, has the Government of Prince Edward Island to make a return showing how said grant was expended?


Hon. Mr. CRERAR:: 
MAJOR A. L. POMEREY.
Mr. CANNON:: 1.	Has Major A. L. Pomerey been appointed inspector of farms in the Eastern Townships in connection with the Soldiers' Settlement Board?
2.	If so, when, and by whom?
3.	What is his salary?
4.	Has Major Pomerey been on active service during the period of the war?
5.	If so, when, and where?


Hon. Mr. BURRELL:: 1.	Major A. L. Pomerey is temporarily assisting as an inspector and valuator in the Eastern Townships.
2.	From May 1, 1919. By the Soldier Settlement Board.
3.	At the rate of $150 per month while employed.
4.	There is no record of this officer having been on active service during the present war.
5.	Answered by No. 4.
QUESTIONS PASiSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS.


Mr. SINCLAIR (Guysborough):: 1.	Were any prizes taken by the H.M.S. "Niobe" during the war?
2.	If so, how many and what was their estimated value?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	What amount of money was paid by the
Government, or any government departments or commissions appointed by the Government, in connection with the Canadian War Loans since the commencement of the war for the following years:	1914-15-16-17 and 18, respectively?
2.	To whom was it distributed?
3.	What are the names of the different persons, or firms, to whom these amounts were paid?


UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR PAPERS.
Mr. DESAULNIERS:: For a copy of all correspondence, memoranda, reports, plans and estimates relating to the construction of the retaining wall, along the shore of the St. Lawrence river, opposite the village of St. Frangois-Xavier de Batiscan, in the county of Champlain.


DOMINION WATER-POWERS.
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 94, respecting the Dominion Water-Powers-Hon. Mr. Meighen-read third time.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Hon. J. D. Reid (Minister of Railways and Canals), the House went into Committee on the following proposed resolution, Mr. Boivin in the Chair:
That it Ijs expedient to extend the time within which the Saint John and Quebec Railway Company is to complete the construction and equipment of its line of railway from a point at or near Centreville, in the county of Carleton, to a point at or near Andover, in the county of Victoria, to the thirty-first day of December, 19i2il, both with respect to the agreement entered into under the authority of section three of The Saint John and Quebec Railway Act, 1916, and also with respect to the subsidy agreement made under the authority of section six of the said Act: Provided that the said extension shall only be granted with respect to the first-named agreement after the consent of His Majesty on behalf of the province of 'New Brunswick has been obtained.
Mr. McKENZIE:: Will the minster explain?


Mr. J. D. REID:: This is merely to extend the time for the completion of that part of the St. John and Quebec railway between Centreville, in the county of Carle-ton, and Andover, in the county of Victoria, New Brunswick. The House passed a similar Bill this session, but it omitted to

include the part of the road between Centre-ville and Andover.


Mr. CAHILL:: Will the minister explain why it is necessary to bring this before the House instead of going to the Railway Committee for an extension of time?


John Dowsley Reid: This is a railway that is being built by the New Brunswick Government. It is a line that was to have been built from the Transcontinental railway to St. John, and the Dominion Government have taken it over and are operating it on a percentage basis. The New Brunswick Government have not completed the road as yet. The New Brunswick Government have asked that the time for completion be extended. The House will remember that Bill No. 5 of the present session was passed authorizing an extension of time for completion from Gagetown to a point on the Canadian Pacific at or near Westfield. The Bill should have included that portion from Centreville to Andover. The New Brunswick Government have drawn our attention to the fact that in the Bill as passed we neglected that portion, and have asked us to introduce and pass this Bill to allow the time for completion of the whole line to be extended to the 31st December. It is not customary to send Bills of this kind to the Railway Committee, because this is merely an extension of a Government line.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Mr. J. D. REID moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 117, to authorize an extension of time for the completion of the St. John and Quebec railway between Centreville, in the county of Carleton, and Andover, in the county of Victoria, N. B.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Hon. J. T. Ballantyne (Minister of Marine and Fisheries), Bill No. 102, to amend the Biological Board Act, was read a second time, and the House went into Committee on the Bill, Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
On section 1-Duties of board:
Mr. COPP:: Will the minister explain this?


Mr. BALLANTYNE:: The object of this Bill is merely to remedy an error that was made quite unintentionally in 1912 when the Act was passed. It is to give the necessary authority to the deputy minister and
[Mr. J. D. Reid.j
the officers under him, without in any way interfering with the work of the Biological Board. Clause 5 in the Act of 1912 was prepared in rather an ambiguous manner, and this is simply to straighten it out.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Does this give an officer the privilege of going all over the country to investigate this question?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No, the object of the change is simply to give the deputy minister, and the officers under him, the necessary authority to engage whatever scientific a.nd technical officers, they may in their judgment deem most fit.


Arthur Bliss Copp: To investigate this matter?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.
Bill reported.



SUPPLY.

[Stage Direction]
The House again in Committee of Supply. Mr. Boivin in the Chair.
Department of Immigration and Colonization -Salaries, including $0,000 to Deputy Minister, $2,500 for promotion and salary of MV. R. Little as Commissioner of Immigration for Eastern District, $139,767.
Contingencies, $35,000.
Frank S. Cahill: Will the minister explain these items?


Mr. CALDER:: There is an increase in the amount asked for. During the year the quarantine service was transferred to the Immigration Department, necessitating an increase in the staff. This department, as in the case of other departments, has several clerks who have been carried on the temporary staff for a period of years, and some of these have been made permanent. The balance of the additional amount is accounted for by promotions to the staff and statutory increases.


Frank S. Cahill: It seems unreasonable that the expenditure of this department should be increased by such an amount when there is very little immigration coming into the country. The minister might explain what -his expectations are with regard to immigration and colonization; if there is any colonization work being done, or any in prospect, and what he has in mind with regard to immigration. The minister might also explain whether he expects to continue admitting Mennonites, Hutterites and Mormons to Canada, or whether he expects to obtain some other class of immigrants. If he does not, this vote should be decreased rather than increased.


James Alexander Calder: The work of the office in Ottawa has, in a sense, very materially increased during the last year or so. In addition to bringing people to the country, there has been cast upon the department the duty of closely scrutinizing those who nave been passing backwards and forwards between Canada and the United States. In that regard at least the department has never heretofore had as much work to do. The increase in the expenditure is necessary for that reason. As to immigration generally, I think there is very little chance of our getting many people from Europe in the near future. Shipping conditions are such now and will so continue for some time that we cannot look to receiving any great number of immigrants from Great Britain or from the continent of Europe. On the other hand, we are continuing to receive a very large number of people from the United States, which last year amounted to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 60,000. The year before that, the number was about 75,000, and I would not be at all surprised if this year we will have approximately from 75,000 to
100,000	residents of the United States entering Canada for settlement here. It is very difficult at the present time to anticipate what the condition is going to be in regard to immigration from Europe. I am inclined to the view that as soon as conditions become a little more settled we may look for a very large immigration from Great Britain, and possibly from the Northern European countries. As to that, however, one can only guess, because of the present unsettled conditions in those countries. I think we may look forward to a continuing immigration from the United States when we consider that country has now a population somewhere in the neighbourhood of 115,000,000, that the natural increase of population there is very large, and the amount of land available for settlement purposes is very greatly restricted. I think the natural growth of the population of the United States, in addition to the number they receive from outside countries, will have a tendency, for some years to come, to cause a very large number to migrate to Canada. So long as there is available in Canada large areas of arable land suitable for settlement I think we may expect that movement to grow.


Mr. MICHAUD:: Will the minister kindly explain the vote in connection with immigration for the Eastern District? What does this comprise?


James Alexander Calder: During one year the outside service of the department was placed on a different basis. Canada has been
dividec^ into three immigration districts, the Eastern District, the Prairie District-called the Western District, I think-and the Pacific District. Each of these districts is in charge of a commissioner whose duty it is to see that the immigration law is enforced by all the officials under him. The Eastern District comprises, roughly speaking, all of Canada east of the Great Lakes, and is in charge of Mr. Little, formerly an official of the department here, who will have under him a staff of one hundred and fifty or two hundred.


Pius Michaud: I would ask the minister to bring to the attention of Commissioner Little the fact that the position of Immigration Agent at Clair, Madawaska county, has been vacant for four or five months. I understand that the Collector of Customs has taken hold of the duties temporarily, pending the appointment of a new agent. It is urgent that an appointment should be made immediately, because during the summer a number of undesirable people come into Canada from the United States. Immigration into that district has to be watched very closely; immigrants of this kind often have to be returned. The Collector of Customs has not the time to give proper attention to this work, and the appointment should be made without delay.


James Alexander Calder: I am not personally acquainted with the situation there, but in all cases of this kind the necessity for having a permanent appointment made is carefully gone into by the department. If it is found necessary that an appointment of that kind should be made in the case my hon. friend refers to, the matter will receive immediate attention.


Mr. EULER:: I gather from the remarks of the minister that immigration into Canada is now largely into the West, and consists of people who are going upon the land. I suppose that they come largely from the Western States. If that is the case, does the department still maintain agencies in the large cities of Eastern United States, and if so, for what purpose?


James Alexander Calder: That phase of our immigration work ,can best be considered under the main vote providing for the salaries of all our agents in United States and elsewhere. We still have our agents in the eastern part of United States. Last year we closed the Philadelphia agency; all the others that were previously maintained are still in operation.


Frank S. Cahill: The minister has not told us anything about what is being done in connection with the colonization end of his department.
Mr. iCALDER: It was provided last year that only returned soldiers should settle on Crown lands lying within a distance of fifteen miles from the railways. Outside of that, homesteading is still being carried on, principally in Northern Saskatchewan and Alberta. As to Eastern Canada, we are still carrying on publicity work as through our agencies in the United States. I understand that a number of people have been induced to come from New England and settle in Northern Quebec during the last six months or so. Our agencies in the Eastern part of United States have been securing very good results in the way of inducing persons to migrate to Canada and settle on lands. I am inclined to the view that the results in that direction will be very largely increased in the near future.


Frank S. Cahill: Of the 60,000 immigrants
who came in during the last year, about what number belonged to the sects that have been under discussion in the newspapers during recent weeks?


James Alexander Calder: We have not endeavoured to keep a record of the religious denomination of those who have been entering the country; we know them simply by nationality.


Frank S. Cahill: The newspaper reports
gave the number of Hutterites and Mennon-ites who came into the country as varying from 30,000 to 60,000. They stated that some of the Mormons who came in have taken up Indian Reserves that were taken from the Indians last year, and that the greater part of the immigration last year consisted of that class of people. Surely the minister can give us within a few thousand the number of Hutterites and IMennon-ites who came into the country last year.


James Alexander Calder: I should only be guessing, because we have not kept a record of that kind. I asked the officials of the department for a statement along that line, but I have not been able to obtain it. I have been told-I do not know whether it is true or not-that the total number of Hutterites on this continent does not exceed 2,500; and only a certain proportion of these -what proportion I cannot say- have entered Canada. The movement of Men-nonites has not been very large; II imagine that not more than five or six hundred came into Canada during the past year.

As to the Hutterites, probably one thousand entered Canada; that would be the limit. I have seen no statement in the press to the effect that 25,000 or 30,000 of these people have entered Canada. I am absolutely sure that that statement is very greatly exaggerated.


William Daum Euler: Did any of the Mennonites who immigrated into Western Canada come from the Western States or the Eastern States, and was any actual investigation made as to their character and habits? I know nothing about the Hutterites who have been confused with the Mennonites.


James Alexander Calder: The great majority of the Mennonites who entered Western Canada came from Kansas and neighbouring States, and very few of them came from the Eastern States. I cannot see the necessity for making an investigation. Unfortunately, there are Mennonites and Mennonites and those who live in Western Canada know the conditions existing there. Some of the members of the Committee know that quite recently I received a visit from six bishops belonging to that sect, who stated that they represented some
10,000	souls in the three provinces of Western Canada. They belong to the old colony of Mennonites, that portion of the sect that is absolutely opposed to sending their children to the public schools. They have been in the West for thirty, forty, or fifty years, and as members of the Committee probably are aware, the Provincial Governments in the West have had all sorts of trouble in endeavouring to induce those people to take advantage of our public school system. Unfortunately, however, they have not seen their way clear to do so, and it is that very fact that has given rise to the agitation in Western Canada for the exclusion of those people from the country until such time as they are prepared to observe the education and other laws of the country. It is very unfortunate this condition should prevail, but there it is. I am well acquainted with many of our Mennonite settlements in Western Canada and with the people, and those who have broken away from the old ideas are law-abiding, moral living people; they have no bad habits; they are great producers; -they are making great progress from many standpoints, and they make very desirable citizens. But so long as a large section of those people hold out against coming under the education laws of the Western Provinces, an agitation will prevail to exclude them from entering Canada.


William Daum Euler: I would make no defence
whatever for any class of Mennonites who object to sending their children to the ordinary public schools, and I am rather surprised to learn that Mennonites in Western Canada raise that objection. I would not be at all surprised to learn that all Mennonites do not so object, because Mennonites who now live in Alberta came originally from Waterloo county, and in Waterloo county Mennonites make absolutely no objection to sending their children to the ordinary schools; I do not think the thought ever entered their minds to have separate schools for themselves. They speak a language of their own only amongst themselves, it being known sometimes as Pennsylvania Dutch, a combination of English and German. These people have lived in that county for a hundred years, and they have never raised any objection to their children going to public schools. Is the chief cause for desiring to exclude the Mennonites from Western Canada the fact that they are not inclined to permit their children to attend the public schools, or is it because of their objection to compulsory military service? They are moral, industrious, honest and make very desirable citizens, as I am sure any hon. member who ever came into contact with the Mennonites as we have them in Western Ontario and saw their farms and the result of their work and intelligence, will admit, although he might find fault with them for objecting to compulsory military service. As the minister states, there are Mennonites and Mennonites. Of the old Mennonites, there is an off-shoot called the New Mennonites who have somewhat different religious beliefs, and to my personal knowledge many of the new Mennonites volunteered for military service in this war. I have not with me a letter that I received the other day, shortly after the previous debate we had on the Mennonite question, but it was written by a man well known to me and he made this statement, which I have no reason to disbelieve, that in Toronto a certain Mennonite congregation sent to the front more men voluntarily than any other congregation in that ultra-loyal city. That must have been from the branch known as the New Mennonites, and there is amongst those who are now settled in Ontario a tendency to become more assimilated with the general population, that being especially the case when they go into the towns and cities. I should like it to be understood that if the Mennonites in Western Canada
object to sending their children to the public schools, there is a distinction between them and those living in Western Ontario.


James Alexander Calder: I assure the hon. gentleman that what I stated is the case.


William Daum Euler: I am not questioning the
word of the minister.


James Alexander Calder: There are some thousands of Mennonites of the old sect who stand out absolutely against sending their children to the public schools.


William Daum Euler: Are they in Alberta?


James Alexander Calder: children to the public schools, and it is the controversy over this problem that has given rise to the very intense feeling in Western Canada against the Mennonites as a class.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I see an item of $5,000 for the Director General of Public Health, which formerly was included in the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. Is this salary for work in connection with the Department of Public Health which was legislated upon recently?


James Alexander Calder: In the Act creating the Department of Public Health there is a clause to the effect that when created the department will take over certain services from the different departments, and provision is also made that the salaries of the officials concerned shall go over with them, so that the item voted will 'be available when the department is created. This particular officer will go over to the Public Health Department, and his salary will go over with him.


Pius Michaud: Is the minister aware that the Mormons who are entering Canada and building homes here for themselves, have left wives in their homes in the United States? If that is a fact, I should like some explanation from the minister.


James Alexander Calder: I am not aware that it is a fact.


John Howard Sinclair: I note with some disappointment that the minister apparently is not attempting to make any reduction in his Estimates. There is an increase over last year in practically every item. Now we all know that immigration has very much decreased, and we would naturally expect the expenditure to decrease, or at all events remain stationary. I find by page 72 of the public accounts that in 1908, when a large number of immigrants were entering Canada and we were carrying on an active propaganda in Europe and the principal cities of the United States, the expenditure of the department was only $960,000, whereas in 1917 it was $1,181,000, and in 1918 $1,211,000. The expenditure seems to be increasing with the decrease in the number of immigrants. It seems very unsatisfactory, and I should like the minister to explain this inverse ratio and why no attempt has been made during the last three or four years, when practically no immigrants were coming in, to Teduee the expenditure of the department.


James Alexander Calder: 
John Howard Sinclair: I have no doubt the figures I gave the minister are correct, because they are from the public accounts, but we have not yet an estimate of what the minister intends to spend during the current year. I presume he has on his desk some statement showing this amount, and if he has we can judge whether he has made any reduction from 1918.


James Alexander Calder: I think we might very well leave that discussion until we come to the general expenditures of the department, including those under the head of Immigration and Colonization. We are dealing here merely with the estimates of the department itself. When we come to the other estimates I shall be prepared to give some information.


Frank S. Cahill: In previous years the Immigration Department had free lands to offer settlers. What has the minister in mind now as an inducement to immigrants to come to Canada? Of the immigrants that came last year-some 60,000-how many went on the land? I would like to know the minister's views in regard to settling immigrants on land more than fifteen miles from a railway. Are immigrants permitted to settle on any Canadian Government land regardless of distances from railways? The minister would hardly suggest that the strike in Winnipeg is an inducement to labourers to come to Canada, nor would it be contended that the high prices of lands adjacent to railways in Western Canada and held by speculators is in the nature of an inducement. If this department is not in a position to do immigration or colonization work we should re-name it, and vote sufficient to provide for the policing of the boundary, as the minister has pointed out. We should know what we are voting for.


James Alexander Calder: The inducement that is held out to people looking for homes in a new country must be very obvious to hon. members. We have enormous resources in this country; on a conservative estimate, the amount of arable land in this country suitable for settlement is at least one hundred million acres, scattered all over the provinces. Our homestead lands adjacent to railways-I am speaking of federal lands now-have to a very large extent been settled on. But there is an abundance of
other land, valued at from $15 to $20 an acre, and this is a fact that is easily brought to the attention of prospective settlers. Those who have been coming to Canada from the United States during the past few years have not been seeking homesteads to any great extent, but have been purchasing this land fairly freely. It is estimated that in Alberta and Saskatchewan alone there are about 25,000,000 acres of this kind of land which, so long as it does not exceed $25 or $30 an >acre, will be quite an attraction to those who are looking for farms in a new country. The work of the department is to inform intending immigrants of this fact. This is being done in the United States through our agencies, and by advertising, publicity campaigns and various other means, and it is partially as a result of the activities of the department that settlers are coming to Canada. In Eastern Canada, particularly in Ontario and Quebec, and to some extent in New Brunswick, there are still areas of land suitable for settlement, some of which will require a little development. But, nevertheless, conditions are such that the possibilities of making homes in northern Ontario, northern Quebec, and New Brunswick may be made attractive to those desirous to settle in a bush country or a country that is partially wooded. We are now in negotiation with the governments of these provinces, and have in mind the preparation of plans whereby the possibilities of settlement in these three eastern provinces may be brought before those looking for new homes in a country such as northern Ontario and Quebec. I have no doubt at all that if the plans for that work are carefully prepared and the necessary publicity work is carried out, a good many settlers can be induced to go into those regions in Eastern Canada. I think the hon member knows of quite a number of settlers who have gone into northern Quebec. I purpose to have a survey of the situation made this summer in order that we may know exactly the facts, and by consultation with the governments of Quebec and Ontario, and by necessary co-operation, we hope to be able to conduct a publicity campaign in Great Britain and the United States that will aid in the settlement and development of those portions of Eastern Canada to which I have referred. I have already had several interviews with members of the New Brunswick and Nova Scotia Governments, and I trust that we shall be able to assist ** development of those provinces in the way of settlement.


Mr.   CABELL@: Has the minister any idea where we shall get settlers for Northern Ontario? What countries does he expect settlers to come from? It is pretty well known that the British Isles will not furnish settlers for Northern Ontario, because immigrants from that country prefer to keep in the older settled districts or go to Western Canada. I have no doubt there is a possibility of getting a certain class of settlers for Northern Ontario to fill in that large district between the east and west on the Transcontinental and Canadian Northern. Has the minister in mind any particular settlers he expects to be able to induce to go into that country?


James Alexander Calder: I have not; but I would not be so certain that British people would not go there.


Frank S. Cahill: So far they have not done so.


James Alexander Calder: Probably not. It may be that they are not acquainted with conditions, or possibly they have ideas that are not altogether favourable, regarding that part of the country. The fact may not have been properly placed before them, but at any rate I can see no reason why British people should not be induced to settle in Northern Ontario or even in Northern Quebec. After all, when we look back in Canadian history we find that it was British stock that went out into the wilds in the early days, and there should be no reason whatever, if proper conditions were establlished, why people from the British Isles should not settle in certain portions of these provinces.


Mr. W. H. WHITE:: Are the people of alien enemy origin such as Germans and Austrians who have been resident in the United States for some time allowed to come into Canada as immigrants?


James Alexander Calder: Under the law as it now stands any person who is an enemy alien is not permitted to enter Canada no matter where he comes from. If a person who came originally from Austria to the United States became a United States citizen, he would no longer be an alien enemy. He would be a citizen of the United States.


Frank S. Cahill: I would like to know where the $15 an acre land is that the minister speaks of. I have some knowledge of Western Canada and of land values there. I am afraid that if the minister's agents in the United States are telling people that they can buy land within a reasonable distance of a railway at $15 an acre they are

misleading them because there are very few places where you can buy land at $15, $20 or $25 an acre within any reasonable distance of a railway. Before the minister increases his expenditure upon immigration to any great extent he should try and make some provision whereby the land can be loosened from the grip of the speculators in Western Canada who are holding it for a rise in price, using the Immigration Department and the money of the people of Canada to bring in customers for that land, to the disadvantage not only of Canada but particularly of Western Canada. We have railways running through territory where the land is all held by speculators. We have national railways running through Canadian Pacific land. You cannot buy that land for anything like $15 per acre. Any that is within any reasonable, or farming, distance of a railway is being held at $25, $30, $40 and $45 per acre. The price and the cash payments are so high that it is almost impossible for a man with little means, say $2,500 or $3,000, to get upon that iand, even to get a quarter section, because the holders want a big cash payment and it takes a considerable amount of money to get stock and implements. I noticed in the press this morning that the Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment Department have in the neighbourhood of 5,000 applications from soldiers for land and that something like 1,900 have been dealt with. If this land is so plentiful that we can afford to look for immigrants throughout the world, the soldiers should be able to get land more readily. If we have no land why are we spending money to get people to come in here to add to the number of unemployed and to go upon strike? If there is not enough work now for the people who are in the country, why should we be looking for other people to come in here and increase the difficulties that we have upon our hands? I am afraid that Parliament is living in a fool's paradise at the present time. I believe that the strike condition is very much worse than the Government consider it to be. We were told by the ministers that they were not in communication with Winnipeg and that the information they had about the strike came through newspaper reports. If that is the condition, instead of sitting here voting away money for immigration, we should be looking into the fundamental reasons for this unrest and particularly for the reason why we are not able to get people on the land and why they are flocking into the cities. I had expected that the Minister oi Immigration and Colonization, after more

than a year and a half at the head of this department, would have had some very definite ideas about immigration and colonization, I thought 'he would have evolved a plan, that he would have come to the House and told us that he did not think we could satisfactorily handle any more immigration for the present year, and that he had solved the land problem so that people could get on the land instead of being encouraged to flock into the cities working for less than a living wage, with the high cost of living outstripping their salaries and wages. If the minister does not get any more information than he has given us he is not spending this $1,500,000 of the people's money very intelligently.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What I wish to say to the minister will perhaps enable him to give the House more information when he brings down another item in connection with immigration. It is rauher startling to find that this department is costing so much money. I took occasion last year to remind the minister that his department is merely a subdivision, something like the situation in which a farmer finds himself when he divides his hundred acres of land between his two sons; there might be enough for one but not enough for either when he divides his substance between them. For many years we found that this work was being attended to by one department, but when it became necessary to provide for the younger son, the patrimony was divided. This younger son, in the person of the Minister of Immigration, should realize that this department is not necessary at all. At all events, it was not found necessary until an extraordinary condition arose in this country. The minister should handle the affairs of the department with great care so that no person would have any reason to say that his administration was characterized by any degree of extravagance. But as has been pointed out by my hon. friend from Antigonish and Guysborough (Mr. Sinclair), the extraordinary condition exists that as the number of immigrants falls off the cost per capita ascends. That is a condition which should not exist and one for which the minister should give some satisfactory explanation. There is another phase of the new department which should receive attention and that is that the minister should have everything at his finger ends in connection with it. It is only about two years old. He started on the ground floor with everything new. He is the creator, the promoter, the advancer of his department and he has been with it from the beginning. He is not like a man who took charge of a big department after it had been growing for many years and from whom it might be unreasonable to expect a knowledge of all the various details. Here is a department that started into operation with himself at the head of it. He ought to know all about it. There should not be any underground workings in connection with it with which he was not familiar. I am more or less disappointed with the degree of familiarity and knowledge of his department that he displayed in connection with these items. I suppose the minister is a busy man, has a great many things to do and that he possibly did not anticipate the questions that would be asked, but I would expect more details and greater capacity to answer the various proper questions that have been submitted to the minister. The minister tells us that there are other items undeT which we would have wider scope to deal with the lands that we have in the West, but, now that he has entered upon the matter himself, I would say that when he comes down again he ought to tell us in a systematic way, dealing with every province by itself, how much land the Government has to be disposed of for settlement purposes, where these lands are, at what price, under what arrangements are they available for settlement, how far are they from railways in the various provinces and particularly the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. I do not understand that the Government has very much acreage in British Columbia, and possibly not a very large acreage in Ontario-in fact I do not know whether the Government possesses any land in that province. I also wish to state to the minister that I think there has been a very poor system followed in disposing of Government lands in the West. For that the minister is not at all responsible, but it is possibly not yet too late to establish a better system. I think that only certain areas of land should be set off for settlement, and until they have been disposed of and occupied, settlers should not be allowed to run away hundreds of miles from the railway by reason of a whim or fancy of their own, when the lands in those far-off districts are no better than those which are available closer to the railways. By establishing a system of that kind settlers would be located together, within range of a railway station, and we would not be called upon, as we are now, to build

a larger mileage of railways than constitutes a fair proportion per capita for the population which we serve in that country. I would suggest to the minister that he should carefully inquire into the way in which this land is disposed of, and that he will see to it in future that the allotment of the land is carried out on a proper basis having regard to the railway accommodation which row exists in the West. It would be far better in the interests of settlers themselves to follow out some such plan, because they could get their grain and other products more easily shipped. It would likewise be more satisfactory for the communities that are growing up, because they could have schools, religious services, and other facilities more easily provided when they are in settlements or villages. - This is a matter which I wish particularly to bring to the notice of the minister.
The minister has observed that we have large quantities of land in the West. I am glad to hear that such is the case, because my understanding was that the Government had been disappointed when it came to take an inventory of the Government lands that were available in connection with the settlement of soldiers on the land. I am informed-I cannot say whether this is official or not-that the Government discovered when looking for land to give to the soldiers, that it did not have nearly as much as it thought it had, and now finds it necessary to expropriate lands which companies have bought, or have received as railway subsidies, and which are being held possibly for speculative purposes. When the minister comes before the Committee again he may be able to tell us, if such comes within his department, what the policy of the Government is in respect of such lands. I would like him, in fact, to give a general idea of the policy of the Government as to the disposal of lands which it owns and which will be dealt with in connection with immigration purposes. There is, of course, a close alliance between the Department of the Interior and the Department of Immigration and Colonization, and I am not expecting the minister to answer questions regarding matter which more properly come within the purview of the former department.


Mr. COWAN:: I do not have to apologize for the Minister of Immigration at all, because he requires no apology. I have known him sufficiently long to realize that he is quite capable of handling his own department without any assistance from me. I must say, however, that I have been 
watching his administration of the department for the past year, and while during that period he has chopped off the heads of one or two of my political friends who were appointed to office on my recommendation some years ago, and to that extent I feel some regret, yet I have to admit that in pursuing this policy he has succeeded in effecting a very great saving to the country and in placing, as I see it, our immigration system in a much better condition than it was before. I think the minister was absolutely right, wherever he found an old Tory or an old Grit in office who had not enough to keep him busy, to dispense with him, and that is exactly what has happened.


An hon. MEMBER:: Order.


Walter Davy Cowan: That is my opinion, whether other hon. gentlemen agree with me or not. The expenses of the administration of the department probably are a little high, and the leader of the Opposition is quite correct in drawing attention to past expenditures when there was such a tremendous rush to this country. I wish to draw his attention, however, to this: A great deal of the trouble we have in Canada to-day is due to the fact that we did not have in former days sufficient supervision over immigration with the result that men came into our country who should not be admitted. We have these men to-day; they constitute the problem which the Minister of Immigration has to deal with. We are to-day paying for the follies of past administration, and I think- it is absolutely unfair to charge it up to the present minister when it is the men who preceded him who were guilty of the wrong-doing.
For my part, I wish to see a vigorous immigration policy continued. Hon. gentlemen in the East may be quite content to sit down and suck their thumbs and do nothing to help the country, and it looks to me as if that is what has happened in some localities in the East. In the past year I took a trip through the province from which the leader of the Opposition comes and also through New Brunswick. It was the first time I had visited that country, which I expected to see so completely filled with people that it would be without opportunity to make any large increase to its population. But I was amazed to find mile upon mile of what looked to me to be exceedingly good land, with apparently no settlers. The thought was forced upon me that the people in that part of the Dominion were awfully deficient in that element of virtue which we call progress. It is about time that the

Minister of Immigration from the West went down into that part of Canada to wake the people up a little hit, because it seems to me they have a magnificent country and they are making very little use of it compared with what they might. We in Western Canada do not intend to sit down and wait for immigrants to come in of their own free will under the system which has been followed in the Eastern Provinces in days gone by. We know that we have a mighty good country, and until we get it peopled we cannot expect to have the social conditions which we would like to have, because scarcity of population is very disadvantageous to contentment. We have 'millions upon millions of acres of fine land. It may be true that a great deal of this has gotten into the hands of private individuals under the wrong policy which was followed in the earlier days. But is the Minister of Immigration going to sit down and do nothing to overcome those conditions which have been thrust upon him? I say no. And if he does I can assure him there is nobody in the country who will more vigorously oppose him than I. I quite agree that the endeavour to get immigrants from the Western States is a correct policy.
The best .settlers we have in Western Canada to-day came from (Ontario, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and the Western States. Thousands of people are crowding in from the United States. These people are very much like ourselves. In the early days, when they started to come, they had a very peculiar notion of British institutions. Many of them thought they were coming to live under-well, almost what you would expect from the Czar of Russia of those days. They believed that we were a mere colony, and that we got our laws and everything else from the King of England. Of late their notions of Canada .have been entirely changed; they now know that they enjoy the same justice and the same liberty that they enjoyed in the United States. Hundreds of townships are settled by people from the American side. We are glad to have them, and I hope that the minister will continue the .policy of trying to induce such people to come to. Canada. There is any amount of land in Western Canada for thousands of immigrants from such places as I have mentioned, as well as for our returned soldiers. If we are finding a little difficulty in getting just the land that the returned soldiers want, that is noit the fault of the land. The land is there, and it is up to us to evolve a system under which it will be made available. I 164
am confident, from what I hear, that we will satisfactorily settle that problem very shortly. In the meantime, the Committee ought to give the minister a very substantial vote in order that he may further the objects of his department. I am quite prepared to give him a year in which (to evolve a proper policy, 'and to give him even longer than that to remedy the defects that he found in his department as a result of the maladministration of years gone by.


James Alexander Calder: The leader of the Opposition as much as intimated that in his judgment a department dealing with immigration and colonization- is like a fifth wheel to a coach; that there is really no necessity for it, and that the department was created to make provision for somebody. In my judgment, there is greater necessity for this department than there is for any other department in the public service. No matter of Government is of as much interest to the people as is immigration and colonization. When you consider what the condition is to-day in. Canada-I endeavoured to make that clear in the statement I made to the House when the Immigration Bill was brought down- you must come to the conclusion that this matter should have received the attention of the Government long ago. We should have had a department of the Government in charge of a minister of the Crown who was prepared to give his entire time and energies to that part of the public service. Why have we in Canada only about 8,000,000 people, while south of the line the population is about 115,000,000? Simply because the question of the settlement and development of this country has not been properly dealt with by past Governments. There is exceedingly important work to be done, and if that work is carried out as it should be and if the necessary appropriations are made available to the minister in charge of the department, whoever he may be, in order that he may carry on his work properly, results will be secured that will re-pay Canada a hundredfold for any expenditures that are incurred. The matter has been too long neglected. True, we had an Immigration and Colonization branch of the Interior Department, but scarcely any one knew it was in existence. One minister after another paid but passing attention to it, because he had larger and what he considered to be more important duties- to attend to. But if this country is to come into her own; if it is to be developed as it should; if we are to get the kind of im-



migration that we should, then this subject must not be neglected as it has been in the past. We have an abundance of room. Opportunities are lying around in every part of Canada, in land settlement as well as in the development of our resources generally. The problem which stares the nation in the face will never be satisfactorily dealt with if we pursue a niggardly policy; unless the moneys necessary for this work are made available, we shall go on drifting as we have gone on in the past. Other countries are looking for settlers. New Zealand, Australia, and South Africa know the value of this class of work and have been spending two or three times what Canada has been spending for the development of their countries. If we are to compete with them; if we are to get our share of the immigrants from the Motherland, we must be prepared to spend the necessary money.
The hon. gentleman said that I have not brought down the information asked for. Well, it is difficult to anticipate the range of questions to be asked on an occasion of this kind, but I endeavoured to give as much information as I had at hand, and I think I have fairly met the demands for information. I have been asked to bring down a statement of the quantity of lands available in every province. May I point out to my hon. friend that even the people in his own province do not know that? Not a single Provincial Premier or Provincial Government could answer that question. At the conference we had here last November, I suggested to the Premiers of the provinces that they put on their Statute Books at once a law providing for an inventory of the natural resources of their respective provinces. Some of them have done so; some of them have started to obtain this information. But at the present time, fortunately or unfortunately, neither the Dominion Government nor the Provincial Governments have real knowledge of the amount of land that is available for settlement in the different provinces. I trust that arrangements will be made by all the provinces at an early date to obtain full and reliable information on this subject.
I agree with the leader of the Opposition that some serious mistakes have been made in the past so far as land settlement in Western Canada is concerned. We have allowed settlers to drift all over the country and to settle in places many miles from railways; and the difficulties of the Western Provinces have thereby been seriously multiplied. If a plan could have been devised
IMr. Calder. ]
in the past under which settlement would have gone forward .as railway development went forward, it would have meant a great saving of expense and trouble in a hundred different directions. But I wish to assure the Committee that that is no easy matter. As long as vacant lands are there, it is most difficult to hold people from going on to them. We have such things as squatters' rights, and if those lands are available anywhere within fifty or sixty miles of a railway, and if they are first-class lands, the squaluar is going to get out on that land if he possibly can. That has been the experience in all the provinces of western Canada, so that I doubt very much, even if the Government desired to do so, it could have prevented settlement of that character.
The hon. gentleman also referred to the lack of land for Soldier Settlement. That, of course, had reference only to homestead lands within a reasonable distance of railways. In Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta, there is an abundance of homestead land, although not all of first class character, but the great bulk of it is not within easy reach of existing railway facilities, and it was because those in authority here felt it would be unfair to ask soldiers to go to lands lying more than fifteen miles from a railway, that provision was afterwards made whereby those returned men might secure purchased land instead of having to go out long distances from railway facilities.
The hon. member for Pontiac (Mr. Cahill) referred to the price of land in western Canada and apparently thought I was far out in my calculation as to what lands were worth. I believe I have a fairly accurate idea as to what lands are selling and being held at in the West. Two days ago, I sold for $15 an acre a piece of land I had held for ten or twelve years, and it is not more than four miles to a railway and it is good average land. I will not say that figure will represent the average price of land in western Canada.


Mr. LEMIEUX:: Does the minister intend to settle in Ottawa for good?


James Alexander Calder: My home was not on this land that I sold. The average price of land in certain localities in western Canada will run as high as $25, $30, and up to $40 an acre. The price depends very largely on the locality.


Rodolphe Lemieux: This morning I was told that the average price was $20 an acre.


James Alexander Calder: I can take the hon.
gentleman to old settled regions in Western Canada where good agricultural land can be purchased at from $15 to $20 an acre. In the southwestern portion of Saskatchewan lands are held as high as $30, $35, $40, $45, $50, and even $60 an acre, but in Western Canada a great deal of land can still be purchased at from $15 to $20 an acre. That, however, is not the point. In dealing with the question of land settlement and colonization, we are bound to consider the fact that conditions vary greatly in all the provinces, and a policy that would be practicable for the Prairie Provinces might not apply to British Columbia or to New Brunswick. The problem is, after all, very largely a local one. The Dominion Government owns land only in the three Prairie Provinces; it does not own Crown land in the other provinces of Canada; and while the Federal Government should establish the machinery and the agencies whereby we may induce people to come to Canada, and while the nation as a whole has a very large interest in this problem, we must not overlook the fact that every provincial government that owns its own Crown land, outside of the Prairie Provinces, has a very large interest in this problem. It was for that reason that last fall we had a conference with the provincial premiers at Ottawa to discuss the matter thoroughly, and we decided upon the fullest co-operation with them. In a comparatively short time now, when the present abnormal conditions cease, I have not the slightest doubt that all the provinces in Canada will be quite willing to co-operate with the Federal Government so as to secure the greatest possible results in this field of endeavour. I am satisfied that with that co-operation, with a wise expenditure of money, we shall be able to secure large results in the way of immigration into this country and in the settlement of our vacant lands.


Frank S. Cahill: I quite agree with the
minister that we should have a very much larger population; but we have been getting immigration into this country for the last forty years, and I should like the minister to tell me, if he can-and I believe he could if he wanted to-the reason why we have not increased our population more rapidly, having regard to the number of immigrants we have secured and to the natural increase in our population. In the last forty years, we have lost upwards of 8,000,000 of our
1644	'	. 1
population by emigration. During that period we received over 5,000,000 immigrants, and that immigration, along with the natural increase in population, should have given us a population of at least 16,000,000 people to-day, but we have only about
8,000,000. Apparently our immigrants were coming in at one door and going out at another; we were simply a station on the way to the United States. If we kept our immigrants in Canada, the Canadian born people went to the United States. The minister has in mind increasing immigration, and that is a very good policy, but before he can hope to make a success of immigration and colonization, he must find out why people who come to Canada from foreign countries do not remain in this country. At the present time, there are over 1,000,000 Canadian born citizens in the United States, [DOT]and they have been going out of Canada every year for many years. The only time-that we held our immigration to any extent, was between 1900 and about 1912, during which period we made some progress, but previous to that time we were losing not only a number equivalent to our immigration, but a large portion of our natural increase. After 1900, we began to retain some of our immigration and some of the natural increase, so that in one census period our population increased by over 1,500,000. It is questionable, however, whether we have increased in the last ten years. The minister is asking for an increased appropriation to spend on immigration, and he must have in mind that when he gets an immigrant here he is to keep him. How does he purpose doing better in the future than we have been doing in the past with practically the same fiscal arrangement, the same form of Government and the same internal conditions generally?
What leads the minister to believe that people are going to stay here in future instead of going to some other country, as they have been doing in the past? What greater inducements have we to keep them here now?


James Alexander Calder: There is only one thing will induce people to stay in a country, and that is contentment.


Frank S. Cahill: Nothing makes contentment but good government.


James Alexander Calder: You must have such conditions that those who come here will be content to make their homes here. Those conditions are, of course, very broad and comprehensive, embracing a multitude of

things. We have not been losing our agriculturalists in this country. Those who have been leaving are mainly urban people; or, if agriculturalists have been leaving, it is because they wished to enter business or engage in industry. I presume that the very large emigration from this country has been very largely due to the rapid expansion of the trade and commerce and industry of the United States in every direction, which has made opportunities for our young men to enter business, and I dare say that condition will continue. I quite well remember when I visited my old home town in Western Ontario after living in Western Canada for some time, that the old boys whom I used to know had practically all gone to the United States to enter business, because the opportunities there were very much greater than in Canada. In my judgment, what we need in Canada more than anything else Is an increased rural population, and I quite agree with the hon. member that we must establish in this country-and this applies to the Provincial Governments and Municipal Governments as well as to the Federal Government-conditions that will make our rural people content and prosperous and happy, because unless we do that we can never succeed in holding them. The question how it shall be done is a very complex one. The Provincial Governments have a very large duty to perform in that direction; the municipalities, if you will, have also their duties, and the Federal Government has its duty to perform. The question of good roads has a very important bearing on the problem; the question of education, the extended use of telephones, the establishment of social centres, and a hundred and one other things have to be considered, and I am free to admit that the fiscal policy of the country also has a marked bearing on the question. But the main thing is this : If we are going to get and maintain a rural population in this country it is absolutely essential that all parties concerned should combine to make conditions in the rural districts such as will lead to the contentment, prosperity and happiness of the rural population.


William Daum Euler: I think the hon. member for Pontiac has directed attention to a very serious question, perhaps more serious than the Government realizes, and that is the question of keeping the immigrants we already have. It is all very well to induce new immigration, but if we continue to lose those we already have our last condition
DMir. Calder.]
will be worse than our first. An amendment has just been made to the Immigration Act which I felt was just a little too stringent, and I believe the result will be simply this: Some of our people in this country will convey to their friends at home news of the stringent regulations now existing and the disabilities under which they labour in this *country as a result of certain steps on the part of this Government, and then we shall not obtain the immigration we otherwise might have had. To-day we are pretty well circumscribed as to the countries from which immigration can be drawn, practically the only country from which we can expect-immigrants being the British Isles. One hop. member a week or so ago urged that no immigrants should be admitted from the southern countries of Europe. That suggestion was pretty far-reaching and was not adopted. The Central Empires, Germany and Austria, will no longer be permitted to send immigrants to this country. The manhood of France has -been so much depleted that there is no possibility of our getting immigrants from that country. I am very doubtful, indeed, whether we shall receive a large immigration from the British Isles for some time to come. As the minister must know, the United States to-day, instead of receiving immigrants, is losing its immigrants. It may be true that those they are losing belong to a class which the United States does not care to retain, but it may be otherwise. I saw by the papers a few days ago that already steps have been taken by no fewer than a million people in the United States to return to their old homes; I do not know whether all these people are aliens, or whether any or all of them were naturalized. The paper went on to state that an exodus was expected from the United States of
5,000,000 people. If that is true, I should like to know whether the minister has any knowledge of a similar movement among our population'. If it is true, it would probably not be the men who are settled on our western farms who are leaving, but the people from our cities and towns. After all, we have a population of only seven or eight million, and I firmly believe that the Government ought to make every effort to keep every immigrant who shows possibility of developing into a good Canadian, citizen. It would be a pity if the Government directed its energies towards bringing in one immigrant, while at the same time iit was losing two immigrants that had already settled 'here just for want of a little effort to induce them

to stay. Has the -minister any knowledge of any large amount of emigration from this country such as apparently is the case with the United States, and if so, what efforts are being made to retain these people?
I entirely agree with the minister that the one thing we want in this country is more people. We have a debt of two billions of dollars, and I do not see how we can meet our exceedingly heavy obligations unless we fill the country up with people who will develop its natural resources. I think our energies should be directed along that line, and we should also remove the restrictions under which the people of this oountry have been labouring for several years, in order that people who are now here will be content to stay and others who are desirable may come.


Rodolphe Lemieux: As my hon. friend from North Waterloo has said, this question of immigration is certainly a most interesting one in view of the peculiar circumstances in which the country finds itself to-day. We shall have to be very careful with regard to immigration in the future and see that we build up in our western provinces, and throughout Canada generally, a real Canadian citizenship. It is appalling to think, first, of the number of native Canadians, and, secondly, of the number of immigrants who have been brought to Canada with good Canadian money, who have left this country during ithe la^t thirty or forty years.
Sir Richard	Cartwright,	referring	tothe number	of persons	who	hadleft Canada	within a	certain	period-I think	he meant	the decade
(between 1882 and 1892-said that Canada had lost as many immigrants, whose entrance to this country had been advertised and paid for, as the Americans lost soldiers during the whole of the Civil war. A Canadian has only to travel to Boston to find that that city is practically an annex of -Nova Scotia; and if he went to Chicago he would find there between 30,000 and 40,000 Canadians, both French and English, who, d know as a matter of fact, are a power in municipal and Congressional elections. Some years ago my hon. friend Senator Dandurand and I were delegated at Sault Ste. Marie to represent Canada at the semicentennial anniversary of the Sault Ste. Marie canal. In the afternoon we were called upon to address a gathering at which the Vice-president of the United States the late Mr. Fairbanks, was also present, and I was rather surprised when we were
requested to speak in French. To my profound astonishment I discovered that in that gathering of about ten thousand people there were at least 5,000 French Canadians. That was in the State of Michigan which is partly French. West Bay city and many other cities, not to speak of the city of Detroit, are largely populated with Canadians. And if you went to Philadelphia you would come across so many Canadians from Hamilton and London and Toronto that you would be under the impression that you were in Canada. In fact, the entire United States to-day is dotted with Canadian -Clubs, and you cannot go into any city in the United States in which there are Canadians to any appreciable extent without finding a Canadian Club. These clubs are fashionable.institutions. This will show that there is in the republic to the south of us a very large population of Canadians of both races and if what my hon. friend said a moment ago is true, and I believe it is, that we cannot hope to get from Europe as many immigrants as we got before the war, I think we should turn our attention to the Canadians who are in the United States, and who to-day, knowing the value of Canadian lands and appreciating their country as they do, would be only too pleased to return to their Mother Country if sufficient inducement were offered. I may speak particularly of those Canadians settled in the United States who belong to my own race-the French Canadian. I think I am within the mark in stating that there are in the United States to-day at least two million French Canadians. The largest French cities in America 'outside of Montreal and Quebec, are New England	cities-Lowell,
Fall River, and many others, where there are French Canadians in every municipal council, in every legislature, on the bench and in every profession. And I know from the members of the Canadian hierarchy that they are obliged to supply the clergy of the United States with French Canadian priests. The cause of the emigration of the French Canadian to the United States is very well known. First of all, the French Canadian is adventuresome, and was so under the old French regime. The Kiug of France had to enact severe laws to restrain the French Canadians, or Canadians as they were called in those days from leaving the settlements. The term "French Canadian" dates back only twenty or twenty-five years. In the old days, even under the French, there was quite a marked distinction between a "Canadian" and a "Frenchman." Montcalm in his letters to the min-

ister in France always refers to the Canadians as the permanent inhabitants of Canada, and to the French as the men in His Majesty's troops. We all know the history of the famous coureurs des bois under the French regime. They were always away from the lands in quest of the fur trade with the redmen and by reason of that peculiar love of adventure these Canadians were encountered in every part of the continent, in the Mississippi Valley, near the Rocky mountains, in the wilds of Kansas and down to New Mexico. Later on, under the British domination you found them in Illinois, Pennsylvania, and roving all over the continent. In the forties quite a large number of French Canadians left for California, lured by the discovery of the gold mines there; and again they were attracted by the discovery of the gold fields in Australia. Later on in the seventies, as the minister said a moment ago, the industrial unrest in Canada was responsible for a considerable emigration of French Canadians, to the New England States, with the result that in all these cities in Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and New York there are large colonies of my fellow countrymen. They have succeeded, but it is surprising to know that a large number of those French Canadians would like to return to Canada. Better circumstances and a keener appreciation of the surroundings of the old homestead appeal to their imagination, and 11 know that if a real movement were instituted to draw from that large population some settlers to Canada, the hon. minister would undoubt-edlv find there a very interesting field. There are some societies and some members of the clergy who are deeply interested in bringing back to Canada as many as possible of that population, and I hope that my hon. friend will encourage that movement because it is a healthy one. The French Canadian is essentially a good settler. History proves that. Those Canadians belong to the oldest stock in Confederation and should be encouraged to return and settle on the old homesteads. There is one society in Montreal, and, if I mistake not, there is one in the city of Ottawa, and there is, or was some years ago, one in Quebec. The Quebec Government has done something in the way of subsidizing these societies, but as the question of repatriation is under the control of my hon. friend, I expect he will do his little share towards achieving what I consider would be quite a success. My hon. friend said a moment ago that the province generally did not know the value and extent
CMr. I.emieux ]
of their land fit for * cultivation. I believe his statement is right. It has only been in the last few years that we in the province of Quebec have realized the richness, the enormous value of our resources in lumbering, pulp manufacturing and wheat growing in the new district of Abitibi. Since the National Transcontinental railway has reached this far away region quite a population has settled there and I am told that this district is certainly full of promise. I know as a matter of fact that the Quebec Government intends to cooperate with the Dominion in connection with the land .settlement of our soldiers. My friend, the Premier of Quebec, was here on Saturday and I was speaking to him about Abiti'bi. He then said to me that his policy was to direct, as far as possible, returned soldiers to take up lands in that new district. The Government of Quebec has accepted the views which were expressed by my hon. friend at the last Dominion-provincial conference and are willing to co-operate with him towards the land settlement of our returned soldiers. Once more let me say that I expect that my hon. friend will do something towards the repatriation movement of the French Canadians. It is really sad to think that there are in the United States such a large number of our countrymen, not only French Canadians but English Canadians. This is a great loss to Canada and if we can induce even a small portion of the large Canadian population which has settled in the United States to return, I think it will be the best work performed by the Immigration Department.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I have one further
word to say in reply to the remarks made by the minister as to the information he possessed about lands in the different provinces. He thought he was answering me by saying that my own province of Nova Scotia could not tell what lands it had. That is"no answer. It is nobody's business what lands they have in Nova Scotia. The lands there do not belong to the Dominion of Canada. We do not pay out any money to survey land in Nova Scotia. They are not looking for immigration. The Immigration Department pays no money to bring in immigrants to Nova Scotia and has never taken any interest in whether immigrants come to Nova Scotia or did not.


James Alexander Calder: I was down to the province of Nova Scotia not very long ago, and I had an opportunity of discussing the whole question with practically every mem-

ber of the Government for four or five hours, and they were very much interested in it. While they have no Crown lands left, there is an agricultural situation in Nova Scotia that, they realize, requires attention. It is only within the last week or two that I had a communication from Mr. Cumming, who is head of the Department of Agriculture there, and he was very anxious to know what stand we are going to take to assist settlement on the abandoned farm, or the semi-abandoned farm; that is a farm which is not cultivated up to its full use. They have that trouble in Nova Scotia just as they have it all through Southern Ontario. One of the real problems in the older portions of Canada, and not only in Nova Scotia, is the question of getting a real, live new settler who will take the place of the person who is working a farm in a half-hearted way. In addition to that, you have the abandoned farm. That is a question that has grown up all through the older part of Canada, and you have there an aspect of this question which requires the most serious consideration, not only on the part of the local Government, but on the part of the Federal Government as well


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The minister has not answered my point at all, and he is absolutely wrong in saying that his department or the Interior Department, or any department of the Government, have ever paid one dollar towards immigration in Nova Scotia. They have not an acre of land within the limits of that province, and they have no immigration policy in regard to it. Consequently, when I am asked about the ownership of land in Nova Scotia, I answer we have no land. Under the Dominion Government, we have been for the last fifty years paying land surveyors to make surveys, maps have been laid be" fore members of Parliament and the people showing the lands that we have in the different provinces, with different colourings on these maps, to indicate the lands we have for sale; those which are cultivable and fit for agriculture, the lands that are under the control of the minister, how much of these lands is owned by the provinces, and how much is available for settlement. Yet, the minister tells me I do not know what I am talking about, and that I do not know the state of things in my own province. That is no answer; it is a mere subterfuge. We would naturally expect the minister to be able to answer. Millions of dollars have been voted by this Parliament for the purpose of ascertaining how much
land we have in the different provinces and what amount of that land is fit for settlement.


James Alexander Calder: *Is the hon. gentleman speaking of Federal Crown lands?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I am not talking of any one class of land. It must be perfectly clear to the minister-I am speaking of the land owned by the Canadian people, by the King, in the right of the Government of Canada. That is the kind of land of which we have been making surveys. That is the kind of land that the Department of the Interior has been dealing with for the last fifty years and in regard to which they must have absolute information in the departs ment.


James Alexander Calder: Surely.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: But the minister sneers at me when I ask him how much land we have available for settlement in these provinces. He answers by asking how much land we have in Nova Scotia. What difference does that make? There is this system of surveys the system of the allocation of lands, in the different provinces on which we are spending millions of money. We are ascertaining the quality of the land, the location and extent of timber limits, water-powers and everything that appertains to our vast properties in the West. Under these circumstances have we not the right to ask the minister how much is available for immigration and settlement? A minister of the Crown who is the head of a department whose officers are all over the country getting this information, and which has its agents working from coast to coast selling this land, should be supposed to be in possession of that information and it is hardly to be expected that he will answer a question of that kind by saying: Why should you ask for such information when your own department of coal mines in Nova Scotia would not be able to supply you with similar information. We have, as incidental to the department of the provincial secretary in Nova Scotia, a sort of a little side show in the form of the Department of Agriculture which is not a department by itself. It pays some attention .to immigration, but we have no well organized immigration department in Nova Scotia.
I am sorry that the minister should have replied in this way instead of answering my question as to the knowledge which we should possess in this House of what lands the Government have in the West. Hehasnot answered that question except by referring me to what is happening in the Maritime

Provinces. Let me say to the minister that it is essential to getting immigrants to come to this country and keeping them here that we should keep our word to them and deal fairly and honestly with them. I charge the minister with having knowledge of the fact that immigrants came into Canada under the pledge of a statute of this Dominion which told them: "When you enter Canada and become naturalized, you become a British subject; the pledge of the King is handed down to you by that statute, which is that you shall always be dealt with as a British subject."
We had thousands of those people in this Dominion in 1917, but notwithstanding this pledge the Minister of Immigration was a party to violating the statute, breaking the pledge of His Majesty the King to the King's subjects, by depriving them of the franchise. Instead of allowing those people to enjoy the franchise the Government disqualified them and told them: "You are British subjects, you have taken the oath of allegiance, this statute guarantees to you all the rights of British subjects, but nevertheless we are not keeping the pledge of the King to you in extending and continuing to you these rights." Far be it from me to say that you should extend any rights to any man who shows any sign of disloyalty to the King; I would be just as bitter as anybody in saying to any such person coming to Canada: "There is no room here for anybody but a true loyal subject of the King." But what are we to do in the case of a man who comes here and takes the oath of allegiance and behaves in an absolutely right and proper manner in connection with every duty he is called upon to perform. As long as such a man does that he is entitled to the due fulfilment of the promises which were made to him. There were thousands of people in Canada in 1917 against whose loyalty not one black mark could be found; all that could be said was that they came here from countries that are possibly now at war with us, but they took the oath of allegiance and have observed to the letter every duty which devolved upon them. Nevertheless the sins of the fathers were visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation; and the Minister of Immigration, knowing that these people did not deserve it at his hands, was a party to cutting them away from that which is deaTer to a man almost than any other right that he possesses-the right of participating in the government of the country in which he lives. I hope the minister will always keep 
in mind that whatever promises we make to immigrants coming to Canada shall be observed to the letter, particularly when we solemnly sit down here and pass a statute in which we grant certain rights to newcomers. That statute received the consent of His Majesty the King, and it then became the law of the land; and we should be very careful and have the very best proof that it is necessary to break away from the pledges and promises therein set forth before we adopt such a policy. I submit, therefore, to the minister that his department should bear in mind that people coming into Canada should be allowed to enjoy those rights and exercise those privileges which have been promised to them, so long as they will do and maintain on their part what is expected of them as British subjects. I submit that has not been done on the Government's part in the past, and it accounts to a very great extent for the smallness of the immigration entering Canada just now from countries beyond the seas. Because, the Britisher from the United Kingdom, although he is a British subject, does not like to see others unfairly treated, and does not caTe to go to another country which he understands has treated immigrants as immigrants coming to Canada have been treated. The minister says I was very wrong in saying anything about the synchronizing of the formation of this department with the organization of the Unionist Government. I venture to tell him that 'the Unionist Government had very little in mind in regard 'to immigration and colonization at that time. It was not a period when immigrants were entering Canada or when commercial interests were very greatly thought of. That Government was organized for one purpose, and one purpose only; and it is vain for the minister to tell me that after the Department of the Interior had for fifty years been managing all the branches pertaining to this work, that it dawned upon him in the middle of the war that it was necessary to create a new department to handle people that were not coming to Canada. I have my own view's about -the matter, and the minister has his; but when he makes a -statement, and I make another contrary to his, the circumstances of the case strongly confirm my assertion as to the synchronizing which took place at the time of the formation of the Unionist Government.


Mr.   C ADDER@: I hope that in rising to
speak for a few minutes in reply to the leader of the Opposition, I shall not be accused of blocking by own Estimates-


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: That will be the next
thing.


James Alexander Calder: -as was a certain minister the other day. I am very sorry that I misunderstood the leader of the Opposition in reference to his question as to the amount of land available in Canada for settlement. I was viewing the situation from this, and I think from the right standpoint; that the whole question of settlement and colonization does not apply merely to federal land, it is being equally applicable to all Canada. When the hon. gentleman asked if I had information regarding the land available for settlement I naturally assumed that he had in his mind the whole of Canada, not merely that portion of it which happens to be the federal domain. I wish to assure him that I was not endeavouring to escape his question by any subterfuge, because if the Department of Immigration and Colonization is going to prove of service to Canada, that service must be to the whole Dominion. It is not right that the Federal Government should pass laws and expend money merely for the settlement of those portions of Western Canada in which it has lands. It is from that standpoint that I have endeavoured to approach this problem, and it was from that standpoint that 'I had a conference last fall with the representatives of all the provinces in Canada and endeavoured to secure their co-operation in connection with it. It appears to me that what the hon. member for Maison-neuve (Mr. Lemieux) has said is quite correct; we have found a new Canada because in the northern part of Quebec there is valuable territory that we did not know existed a short time ago, and the same is true to a large extent of Northern Ontario. The province of British Columbia is in my judgment the richest province in Canada, but it has not had the agricultural development it should have. I took this matter up with the various provinces and endeavoured to ascertain their available land resources for settlement purposes; but I have found that neither here at Ottawa, nor in the records of their own Provincial Governments, was there anything like a reliable or accurate record of one of the principal resources that we have in this country-that is land fit for settlement-I endeavoured to prevail upon them as to the necessity of our getting an inventory of this land just as quickly as we possibly could, and all the premiers and their colleagues who were present concurred in that.
Some of them have already passed laws with a view to securing that inventory. In tackling the question of the settlement of Crown lands, lands in the possession of ithe provinces, and privately owned lands, we must first find out what we have. Notwithstanding what my hon. friend has said, I may point out that when I was in Nova Scotia I found Premier Murray and all his colleagues intensely interested in this question so far as Nova Scotia was concerned. We spent four or five hours together at Halifax, considering the problem from every standpoint. They realize that the land of that province is not being used to its full capacity; that good lands are only half used, some of them not used at all, and they want to devise ways and means whereby that land may at the earliest day be used to the full. So that in the old province, of Nova Scotia, where the Crown lands axe all gone, there is an immigration problem. We must not forget that the expenditures made by the Federal Government in the past for immigration and colonization have not been made for Western Canada alone. It is true that the majority of the settlers have gone into Western Canada, but in the propaganda that we carry on in the United States and Great Britain and that was carried on in the various countries of Europe, no attempt has been made to deal only with one portion of Canada. In any case, if that has been done in the past it certainly should not continue in the future. The Federal Government must be impartial in this matter; it must treat all paTts of Canada alike. We must have a national policy not a sectional policy. It is of the utmost importance that the closest co-operation should exist between the Federal .Government and the provincial governments; that in this House should deal with the matter not from the local but from the national standpoint, and that whatever work we carry on outside of Canada should be carried on from the national standpoint, not from the standpoint of settling only those lands in Western Canada that belong to the Crown.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: For the last fifty years we have been devoting our time, our money and our attention so far as immigration and colonization are concerned to lands which Canada owns in the West-because Canada does not own lands anywhere else. If the Government will announce that their immigration policy has been changed and that it will now embrace the whole of Canada, that is another matter. But we have never heard that the policy of the Gov-

eminent with regard to immigration has been changed. I do not think that there is any authority in the minister's department to take the moneys voted by this House and spend them in any province in which the Government of Canada, as such, owns land. My theory is that these moneys are voted for the purpose of dealing with lands owned by the Canadian people through the right of this Parliament. No one realizes more than I do the great necessity of developing an immigration policy in Nova Scotia. In that province much splendid agricultural land is inviting cultivation. The difficulty is that there are industries to which the people go more readily than they go on the farms. They like to work in the coal mines, steel works, factories, and so on; they are not so willing to stay on the land. If the minister can do anything to make agriculture more interesting to immigrants or to the people who now live in Nova Sootia than it is at present, no one will more heartily give him the honour that is due him than I Vill. I trust that if it is the policy of the Government to extend their immigration policy they will have the greatest possible success in my own native province as well as in every other old province to which they may extend their energies.
.Sir SAM HUGHES: Have not the industries to which my hon. friend referred had a very beneficial effect in recent years upon the farming communities in their various localities?


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: No doubt they have had a beneficial effect. But in Nova Scotia we do not produce more than ten per cent of the food that is necessary to maintain the people in those various industries. We buy Ontario 'beef and Prince Edward Island beef and agricultural products. It is pretty hard to keep a Cape Bretoner or a Nova Scotian at work on the farm; he finds it more congenial to take up other work. But farming may be made more attractive to these people, along the lines suggested by the minister.


Sir SAM HUGHES:: When I visited Nova Scotia quite a number of years ago, the complaint was that the people were being attracted to the New England States as labourers and that the farms were deserted. -An old farmer who had several hundred acres of splendid land near Tatamagouche, in Pictou County, pointed out that his sons had all gone to Boston and were getting ready money engaged in street work in that city, while his farm remained untilled. I happened to visit that locality on a later

occasion and found the grandchildren working on the farm. I understood that there was quite a return of the people to the land in that part of Nova Scotia. I agree that the farmers should be encouraged to settle on the land in the older provinces as well as in the new provinces.
Salaries of ag-ents and employees in Canada, Great Britain and foreign countries, $ 575,0 '>0.


Samuel Hughes: A number of years ago, when Hon. Mr. Sifton was Minister of Interior, immigration agents in the United States were permitted to act as land agents, and settlement agents. That policy was highly beneficial to Canada, and resulted in the bringing in of a good class of settlers. Is there any restriction now on their acting also as land agents?


James Alexander Calder: For some years past our agents in the United States have received very specific instructions to have nothing whatever to do with the sale of lands.


Samuel Hughes: That is a great mistake.


James Alexander Calder: They have been acting under those instructions for a number of years, and they concern themselves almost entirely with the settlement of homestead lands. Within the past six months or so I have reviewed the situation, and not very long ago I came to the conclusion that all those agents should be permitted to receive inquiries with respect to privately owned lands and. those inquiries should be forwarded to associations which have recently been created in Western Canada for the purpose of dealing with them. It is only within the last month that there has been established in each of the Prairie Provinces an association representing private owners of land, and we have made arrangements whereby all inquiries reaching our offices in the United States will be forwarded to those associations. As the Committee will understand, the situation to-day is very different from what it was ten or fifteen years ago when an abundance of homestead land was available throughout the West. The landseeker from the United States is to-day looking rather for a piece of land which he can purchase within existing settlements than for outlying homestead lands, and consequently, we are creating machinery, both in the United States and Canada, whereby the prospective land-seeker may be put in touch with owners of land who have them for sale.


Rodolphe Lemieux: I hope that amongst
those agents in foreign countries the min-

ister will find his way clear to appoint one in Belgium. We have already an agent in France; the Hon. Philippe Roy is the Canadian Commissioner in Paris, and as the minister stated a moment ago, after the tremendous loss of life suffered by France during the last war, we cannot expect the French Government to facilitate the work of any immigration agent, but in Belgium, I am informed, that there are good prospects for immigration. Before the war a movement was on foot to send immigrants from Belgium to Canada and the minister knows that the Belgians belong to the better class if immigrants. As gardeners around the Yarge cities, such afe Toronto and especially Montreal, the Belgians have done wonders, and if inducements could be put forward, I believe the refugees especially who are at present in England would willingly come to Canada. I think there are in the Northwest one or two Belgian colonies, one being in Manitoba. The province of Quebec has in Brussels an agent, Mr. Langlois, formerly a journalist in Montreal, who is, I believe, publishing a paper called "Belgi-que-Canada," the first issue of which I saw the other day. The future seems to be very bright from an immigration standpoint, and I would urge upon the minister to appoint somebody in Brussels to act in conjunction with Mr. Langlois. Some years ago the Hon. Mr. Sifton, now Sir Clifford Sifton, appointed two agents in Belgium, and for a while we had quite a stream of immigrants from that country. If the Belgium is not a farmer, he is so thrifty and industrious that he is capable of adapting himself practically to any business in the country and from all points of view he is a very desirable immigrant.


James Alexander Calder: I quite agree with the statement made by the hon. (Mr. Lemieux). As a matter of fact, for many years we have had an agent at Antwerp and we have obtained many very desirable settlers from Belgium. According to my latest information-and I have made official inquiries- the Belgian Government will not, in the very near future, look with very much favour upon any effort made to induce its people to leave their own country. I am sure hon. members can quite understand the reason for that, because Belgium has also lost a large portion of its population, and conditions in that country, as a result of the war, are far from being what they should be and the Belgian Government are anxious that the country should be rehabilitated and put on a sound
basis agriculturally and industrially as quickly as possible. iSo far as all that class of immigration work is concerned, that is, as regards Belgium, France, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, all those countries in northern Europe, all that we can do at the present time, because shipping under any circumstances will not be available until after September or probably after even October, is to have a very careful review made of the situation. Some person must visit those countries and get in actual touch with the situation so that we may have first hand knowledge. When that is done, we shall have the facts and we shall know what action can be taken, tout until that review' is made I doubt very much if any action could be taken. Until our soldiers and their dependents are home-and that will take some months yet -there will be no shipping available for such immigration.


Mr. TWEEDIE:: I understood the hon. member for Maisonneuve (Mr. iLemieux) to say that a periodical was being published in Brussels to induce immigrants to come to Canada.


Rodolphe Lemieux: Yes.


Thomas Mitchell March Tweedie: What kind of Canada is Belgian-Canada?


Rodolphe Lemieux: It is a paper published in Brussels.


Thomas Mitchell March Tweedie: What land is Belgian-Canada? Have we any Belgian-Canada? I think if any periodicals are being published to induce people to come to Canada the sooner such periodicals drop any national or sectarian designation the toetter for the country. If people want to publish periodicals and call them " Canada," let them call them " Canada," but .1 do not think there is any reason why they should be called " Belgian-Canada," or any other Canada.


Rodolphe Lemieux: My hon. friend misunderstood me. It is a review published by the agent of the province of Quebec residing at Brussels, under the title "Belgique-"Canada," or in English "Belgium-Canada." The review discusses the problems of the tvro countries, their resources, etc., and invites capital. It is not sectarian in any way. It is similar to the publication we had in 'Paris some years ago called '"Paris-Canada," which was the organ of the Commissioner in Paris.


Thomas Mitchell March Tweedie: I misunderstood my hon. friend. I thought he called it "Belgian Canada." I should like to know what is the policy of the department with regard to the

immigration offices which are now being closed down throughout Western Canada. If all these are to be closed up, how will the Government handle immigrants to that part of the country?


James Alexander Calder: 
Rodolphe Lemieux: How many offices are there in the British Isles?
iMr. CALDER: Twelve: London, Liverpool, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Birmingham, York, Carlisle, Cardiff, Bristol, Belfast, Dublin, Peterborough. None of our Old Country offices have been closed. The staffs in the provinces, however, have been cut down to the minimum. The London office has had a great deal more work to do in connection with soldiers' dependents.


Rodolphe Lemieux: You should get as many agents as possible among the Scotch Presbyterians.
At six o'clock the Committee took recess.
After Recess.
The Committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Arthur Bliss Copp: This item, " Salaries of agents and employees in Canada, Great Britain and foreign countries," represents 
not only a large amount but also an increase over last year. It would be interesting to know the number of agents we employ in foreign countries, and what countries, and also the expenses in connection with the different offices and the results that have been attained-this last being the important point.


James Alexander Calder: During the last fiscal year the total expenditure in salaries in Canada, the United States, and Great Britain, amounted to $544,685. Of that amount $212,433 was expended for salaries of officials at such interior points in Canada as Victoria, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Montreal, Quebec, Halifax and St. John. Salaries paid to boundary officials amounted to $183,164.


Frank S. Cahill: Is that extra?


James Alexander Calder: The salaries are all included in this $575,000. Last year we paid our officials, placed at many points along the international boundary from coast to coast, $183,164. Salaries paid in the United States amounted to $82,013, and in Great Britain $67,072. In the United States we now have 22 offices which have been in operation for a number of years. These offices are at Detroit, Saginaw, St. Paul, Grand Forks, Watertown, Spokane, Syracuse, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Omaha, Columbus, Harrisburg, Des Moines, Biddeford, Great Falls, Boston, Bedford, New York, Portland, Manchester, N.H., Chicago and San Francisco. At each of these points we have a chief agent. There are twenty stenographers and six other clerks. The staff in these 22 offices number in all 48, and the salaries amounted to approximately $82,000. Last year we closed three offices in the United States, one of those three being in Michigan, one in Philadelphia, because we felt there was really no necessity for their continuance. As regards the result of the work in the United States, I said this afternoon that the number of immigrants that arrived last year in Canada was about 60,000, and in the previous year about 75,000. (In Great Britain we have twelve offices, eight in England, two in Scotland, and two in Ireland. On the continent all offices were closed shortly after the war. We had an officer in Antwerp and a staff in France. Our agent in France died some months ago, and no appointment has yet been made. The work in England during the last year or two has been confined very largely to repatriation in one form or another. During the past six months our staff has been extremely busy in connection with the re-

turn of soldiers' wives and children to Canada, and the staff at London has had to be increased in order to take care of that work. Our staff in the outside offices have also had considerable work. The dependents of our soldiers are pretty well scattered over the United Kingdom and there is a good deal of work involved in arranging for transportation and so on. The total expenditure in the department last year for salaries was $544,000. We are now asking for an expenditure of $575,000. L cannot say at present what provision will be made by the 'Civil Service Commission in connection with the reorganization of our Outside Service. I do not know what schedules will be brought down. Our outside staffs will be re-organized and classified salaries will be provided, and I would anticipate that in the new arrangement some increases in salaries will have to be provided. During the year I have had to provide for a number of increases in salary. In our Outside Service there was no provision for the ordinary annual increase that the Inside civil servants receive, and when I came to look into the matter 1 found a great many anomalies that had to be adjusted in fairness to a number of first-class officials who had been in the department a good many years. We may as well be frank about the matter; we all know that in the past the Outside Service was to a large extent treated from a purely political standpoint by all Governments, and in the result many men in the service were not treated on an equitable basis. When I began to ascertain what was right and proper in these cases, I found it necessary to make many re-adjustments, and as a result our whole service outside has been very much improved. I think there is a better spirit, and I am confident that we are getting to-day in our immigration service in 'Canada, the United States and Great 'Britain far better work than has been secured for many years, simply because .these little matters which had been neglected for a considerable time were attended to.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Since the minister has been in the department has there been any reduction of officials?


James Alexander Calder: Our service in Canada and the United States has been very carefully overhauled. The department was created in December, 1917. We then had an outside staff of 459. In March of this year we had a staff of 344, a decrease of 115. These figures were obtained in this way. We closed 21 halls and the salaries
of the officers who were in charge of these halls, and who were retired amounted to $8,590. Most of them were simply caretakers. I found these halls open and expenditures going on for fuel, light, heat, repairs and so on* while many of them were not used at all. In a number of cases not a single immigrant had been in these halls for months. Something less than ten are still open. I do not mean to say that if we find it necessary in connection with our work these expenditures might not increase again, but I shall see to it that these halls are not reopened or kept in operation unless there are immigrants to be accommodated in them. At various interior points, such as Saskatoon, Moosejaw or Regina, in past years, when we were dealing with homesteaders in large numbers, we found it necessary to have agenoies established. We have decreased the staffs of these agencies to the extent of fifty-two persons. These persons had been kept at these offices continuously .for years practically after the work that they were appointed to do had very largely ceased. They were retired and their annual salaries amounted to $50,070. During the war we found it necessary to appoint a number of officials whose duty it was to issue permits to those who were leaving Canada to enter the United States. We have retired twenty of these officers with an annual saving of $14,350. Our boundary staffs were also overhauled and as a consequence thirty-one officers were retired representing an annual saving of $31,300. A number of officials resigned, some were transferred to other departments, and one or two died. In that connection we retired thirty-seven officials representing a saving of $32,490. This makes a total reduction in our staff of 158, representing an annual saving in salaries of $136,800. That is one side of the account. We found it necessary to make some appointments.


Mr.   BELAUD@: You could dispense with those officials?


James Alexander Calder: I would not say in all cases, because some were transferred to other departments, some- were retired and others were appointed in their places. But there were 158 retired. Now, I am going to give those who were added, and that will show the net reduction in the staff. In the- case of boundary inspectors, there were thirty-four. Amongst those there were some officials retired where they should not have been retired. A further investigation showed that nine

of these men were absolutely needed. That makes a total of 43. Deducting that number from the 158 we have a net reduction in the Outside Service of 115 officers representing an annual saving of $98,340. In the United States we closed three offices and retired ten officials, the net saving there being about $6,000.


Mr. BELAND:: But the vote asked for is a larger vote than last year?


James Alexander Calder: We have had to make a good many adjustments in the salaries of officials who are left in the Service.


Henri Sévérin Béland: Increases?


James Alexander Calder: Yes. We have found it absolutely necessary. We found that a large number of our men were in receipt of salaries of $900, whereas the American officials are in receipt of salaries from $1,500 to $1,800. We found we simply could not retain the right kind of men in the Service with that condition prevailing. We found it necessary to assure the efficiency of the Service, as well as to retain our men, that there should be many increases.


Arthur Bliss Copp: I understood the minister to say that during the past year there were about 60,000 immigrants partly from the United States and partly from European countries.


James Alexander Calder: Practically none from
European countries.


Arthur Bliss Copp: All from the United States?


James Alexander Calder: Yes.
Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR; We have been told that a good many people left Canada for the United States but we have not had any figures to show what the number is.


James Alexander Calder: We do not keep any figures of that kind although it might be desirable to do so. We endeavour to keep a very careful record of those who come in and who declare their intention of remaining in Canada, but we have no records of transients moving backwards and forwards.


Mr. RICHARDSON:: What is the name of the agent at Snowflake in Southern Manitoba, and the salary that is being paid to him?


James Alexander Calder: Mr. Nesbitt. He is getting a salary from this department of $600, and I am told he also receives $600 as customs officer, making his total salary $1,200. The Immigration and Customs Departments endeavour at a great many points to make arrangements whereby one official can carry on the work of both departments.
[iMir. Galder. ]


Robert Lorne Richardson: Is the minister aware that the man who occupied that position before Mr. Nesbitt was appointed held it for twenty years? He began with $200 and, after the lapse of twenty years, it amounted to $600 or $700. He was appointed originally in connection with guarding the forest but afterwards became a customs officer, and for twenty years served this Government as faithfully as any man ever served his Maker. In addition to being a customs officer he performed duties for the Immigration Department at $100 a year. About the 3rd of last October he received notice from the Government that he was dismissed, and his dismissal took effect at the end of the previous month, so that he was removed before he got notice. I took the matter up with the Customs Department, and they wrote me a very curt note that the offices had been combined for economy's sake. Now we discover that his successor is receiving $600 or $700 a year as customs officer, and is paid an additional $600 a year by the Department of Immigration, whereas the man who served his country faithfully for twenty years at a salary of $600 or $700 a year was dismissed for economy's sake. I am free to state that I do not think the minister knew anything about this little job, or the Minister of Customs either; I think it is a little bit of trickery on the part of some official. Mr. Conner held the position for twenty years; raised a family of ten children in this country; farmed anywhere from four to five or six quarter-sections; bore the burden and heat of the day during all these long years; did his duty for his country and was proud of it; guarded the boundary just as faithfully 'as if he owned the country; and during the long term he held the office turned in every dollar of revenue he could collect for the Government. Yet he is dismissed and that dismissal took effect two or three days before he received the notice. The statement made to him, and also to me, was that it was done for the purpose of economy. Now we find when the showdown comes in Parliament that the salary for the new appointee has been pretty nearly doubled, and James Conner, a faithful servant, is turned adrift. I do not blame the minister, because I do not think he really knew what had happened; but if this kind of thing has occurred in many other cases it is no wonder there is great discontent among civil servants. I appeal to my hon. friend the member for Lisgar (Mr. Bolton), in which constituency Mr. Conner lives, to bear out my statement. The hon. gentleman knows him as intimately as I do, and

said to me that a more decent man did not live in the province of Manitoba. I think it is the most shameful treatment I ever knew to be meted out to iany official in this country.


James Alexander Calder: I am not acquainted with the facts in this case and the statement from the hon. member for Springfield will certainly -have to be inquired -into.


Robert Lorne Richardson: An apology ought to be sent to Mr. Conner.


James Alexander Calder: This is the first knowledge I have received of the facts as stated.
In so far as our department is concerned, Mr. F. H. Nesbitt is the inspector at Snowflake, and he is in receipt of a -salary from us of $600. I am informed -that he also receives $600 from the Customs Department, but whether that is -correct or not I do not know.


Robert Lorne Richardson: I happen to know that.


James Alexander Calder: Then the case will have to be inquired into. Our department had nothing -to do with Mr. Conner's appointment, or, I dares-ay, with the dismissal. Apparently it was decided that one official could carry out the work at this point. I cannot say what the motives behind the dismissal of Mt. -Conner were, but I shal-l certainly take the earliest opportunity of inquiring into it.


Robert Lorne Richardson: I have received a letter from the Commissioner of -Customs saying that the motive for Mr. Conner's dismissal was economy, but whereas this man performed the duties of two offices for $700, another man is -foisted into -the position at $1,200. I -do not know anything about this Mr. Nesbitt, but I understand he was engaged in Winnipeg. When the deluge came, and lots of people had nothing to do, wires were pulled to get Nesbitt appointed -at Snowflake. So they got rid of poor old Jimmie -Conner, than- whom there never lived a more decent man. Mr. Conner, who had served his country faithfully for twenty long years, and was as competent a man as could be got, wias thrown out of the job even -before he received notice. The thing is an outrage and ought -to be inquired into. Certainly the least Mr. Conner deserves is an apology and reinstatement to his former post.
Mr. MICHAU'D:	How long ago was he
dismissed?


Robert Lorne Richardson: He got his notice
I think on the 3rd of last October, and he
was dismissed on the last of September; he was dismissed before he got notice that his services had been dispensed with, and on the alleged ground of economy.


Mr. CHISHOLM:: Who dismissed him?


Robert Lorne Richardson: That is what I am trying to find out. I made up my mind that the only way we could correct a thing like this was by exposing it on the floor of Parliament. I do not know who dismissed Mr. Conner, -but I do know that the Commissioner of Customs wrote to me that his dismissal was on the ground of economy. The new man, instead of getting only $600 or $700 as poor Conner did is receiving double that amount.


Mr. DUFF:: I think now is the time to probe this matter to the very bottom. The hon. gentleman may say that the Minister of Immigration and Colonization was not aware of it, but he is responsible for every official dismissed or appointed in his department. We have a right now to inquire on what ground Conner was dismissed, and the other man appointed in his place.


Robert Lorne Richardson: Mr. Conner was a Customs officer before he took up work for the Department of Immigration. My hon. friend from Lisgar (Mr. Bolton) says that it was the other way round; but J,he facts are just as I have stated. Mr. Conner got anywhere from $200 to $600 a year extending over this long period of twenty years, and then he was thrown out without due notice, and not even thanked for his services.


Arthur Bliss Copp: The hon. gentleman says
he was a capable officer?


Robert Lorne Richardson: As capable a man as ever stood in leather shoes. And he guarded -the boundary just as faithfully as if he owned the country.


James Alexander Calder: I can assure the Committee that the question of readjusting the staff of the service is by no means an easy one. I attempted the task, and I think I have succeeded fairly well, but I presume I have made a great many enemies for myself. That I expected and will have to let it pass.


Robert Lorne Richardson: Will the minister
promise me to look into the matter and see that justice is done?


James Alexander Calder: If the hon. gentleman will pardon me a minute I have something to say to the Committee, and I think it is very important that I should say it. I want to speak very plainly and very candidly. In my opinion, the public service

of Canada needs to be cleaned up in very many places, and in taking any steps in that direction, a minister is largely dependent upon those upon whom he casts the responsibility of making the necessary inquiries. When the inquiry is made and the minister receives the report, considers it and applies to it the best judgment that he can, he must act in accordance with that judgment. I do not care who the minister is, if he were the angel Gabriel himself, he would land himself into all kinds of trouble when he took any steps in this direction. That has been my experience-although, I say, I do not mind it.	[DOT]


Arthur Bliss Copp: And. you are not the angel Gabriel.


James Alexander Calder: I am not the angel Gabriel; I do not profess to be. But about one hundred and fifty persons have been retired in one way or another from the Department of Immigration-and if hon. gentlemen think that I have kept myself out of trouble, they are very much mistaken. I am quite satisfied that in the interests of the department and of the country generally I did the proper thing. I should like to see the same thing take place in connection with every other department of the Government. Possibly in doing that certain mistakes will be made; possibly an occasional injustice will be done to somebody in the service. If so, it is only right and proper that the matter should be called to the attention of the minister concerned and that the necessary inquiry should be made. Not in this particular case, but for the purposes of the investigation that I caused to be held in the Outside Service, I engaged the services of two men, one of whom was Mr. A. B. Cook, of Regina. A return was brought down early in the session in connection with the matter. Mr. Cook was sheriff in Regina for many years. I have known him for twenty years or more and, as the member for Regina (Mr. Cowan) knows, he is an exceedingly competent man. I suppose that no office in Saskatchewan is as well organized and as well oonducted as Mr. Cook's office. I asked Mr. Cook to come here and help me in this work, on the understanding that he would view the matter purely from a business standpoint and hew strictly to the line regardless of politics- or any 'Consideration other than that of the public interest. With Mr. Cook I sent Mr. Percy Reid, an official of the department of long standing who knows our service from coast to coast. These
IMr. Calder.]
men went over the ground not in a perfunctory way, but very thoroughly indeed. They got actually in touch with nearly every one of these officers, checked up the work they were doing, and made a report as to what they thought should be done in the public interest. Just what report they made with regard to -the particular office referred to by my hon. friend (Mr. Richardson) I do not know, because I have not the report with me. It is possible that in our negotiations with the Customs Department it was decided to drop this man, who had previously been in the employ of the Government. I assure my hon. friend that, having regard to the statement he has made, I shall take the very earliest opportunity of looking into the merits of the case, and if an injustice has been done I shall do all that I can to see that it is rectified. More than that I cannot say.


William Duff: I understood the minister to say that whatever changes were made in his department were made by him or his officials. I was under the impression that all appointments were made by the Civil Service Commission. Are there two ways of making appointments-through the minister and through the Civil Service Commission-or only one?


James Alexander Calder: I was speaking of retirements, not appointments. Retirements are made not by the Civil Service Commission, but by Order in Council, if the man in question was appointed by Order in Council. Appointments, of course, are made by the Civil Service Commission.


William Duff: Was Mr. Conner's successor appointed by the Civil Service Commission?


James Alexander Calder: If Mr. Nesbitt was previously in the Service, he Would merely be transferred. Transfers are arranged by the department, not by the Civil Service Commission. We quite frequently find it necessary to make transfers.


William Duff: Was Mr. Nesbitt transferred, or was he newly appointed?


James Alexander Calder: I understand that he was transferred.


Robert Lorne Richardson: As I understand the thing, this man Nesbitt, with a whole lot of others, was loaded on the public service. There was absolutely nothing for these men to do, and when the time came for reorganization, a job had to be found for them. I exculpate the minister; I know him too well to believe that he would do anything of that kind; I do not think he knew about it. But the job was put up

somewhere and this man was foisted on the country at an increased salary. I omitted to say that this splendid old man Cbnner, told me that had they put a returned soldier in there, he would not have said a word; he would have been perfectly happy. But to know that another man had been put there at twice his salary, on the ground of "economy," made his Scotch blood boil- and I do not wonder. The minister has kindly said that he would look into the matter and see that justice is done. When will we get a show down on it?


Mr. GAUVREAU:: Next session of the House.


James Alexander Calder: Not next session. When I told the hon. member that I would have this matter inquired into at once, I meant it.


Robert Lorne Richardson: I know, but what about action? Will Conner have any chance of getting back his job?


James Alexander Calder: That all depends upon the circumstances. The hon. gentleman has put forward one view; I have no doubt he believes his view to be correct. Nevertheless, he will agree that in a case of this kind a proper inquiry must be made and the facts ascertained. Whatever action is taken will be based upon the facts and the circumstances. Not knowing the facts, I could hardly promise that any particular thing will be done.


Robert Lorne Richardson: I take it that if my statements are discovered to be perfectly true and in accordance with the facts, and Conner is found to be an A-l man and to have served his country as I have stated, he will be reinstated in his job, and that an apology will be made to him for his dismissal. As for Nesbitt, let him go "where the woodbine twineth." if necessary. He was not rendering any real service to the country and should have been dispensed with anyway, as thousands all over the country ought to be wiped out.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: How can the minister promise re-instatement? That is a matter for the Civil Service Commission.


James Alexander Calder: Certainly.


Robert Lorne Richardson: Well, there you are. What would the leader of the Opposition, as a "brither Scot" -suggest?


Frank S. Cahill: Were these forty-three appointments made by the Civil Service Commission? How does the minister explain the additional expenditure of $25,000 when he has 115 less employees? Are they to be
accounted for 'by the dismissal of officials and the appointment of others in their places at twice the salary? 1 should be glad if the minister would explain also why it costs so much to maintain the service in Canada as compared with the service outside of Canada. There is an item of approximately $450,000 for salaries of employees in Canada and about $150,000 for employees outside of Canada. I notice also that the service in Great Britain amounts to $1,500 per office more than it does in the United States. Is that accounted for by larger salaries or larger staff?


James Alexander Calder: As I have already explained, we have twelve offices in the old country as compared with twenty-two in the United States.


Frank S. Cahill: But the offices in the United States cost $4,000 per office and the offices in Great Britain cost $5,500 per office.


James Alexander Calder: The cost would depend
upon the staff carried.


Frank S. Cahill: What is the staff?


James Alexander Calder: I pointed out that we have in the United States twenty-two agents, twenty stenographers and six clerks, making a total of forty-eight, whereas at the present time in the whole of Great Britain we have a staff of sixty-eight. In our London office, we have three first-class clerks, twenty second-class clerks, eleven third-class clerks, and two -messengers. At our outside points in Great Britain the staff usually runs from one to three, there being not more than three in any office. The hon. gentleman inquired why the expense in Canada was much greater than in Great Britain or the United States. In Canada, we have 140 boundary inspectors, the salaries running from $900 or $1,000 to $1,500. That fact in itself will explain the reason why the salary cost of -boundary inspection work in Canada is heavier than the cost of salaries paid in Great Britain and the United -States.


Frank S. Cahill: Besides the salaries oi
boundary inspectors there is an amount of $350,000 for other salaries in Canada.


James Alexander Calder: I have already explained that we have a series of interior offices. Our Montreal office, for instance, has necessarily a pretty large staff in order to look after our work in -"connection with entries and deportations.
Mr. -CAHILL:	Principally deportations
this year.


James Alexander Calder: No, they look after all
entries. A careful record is kept of all persons entering Canada; then there are many rejections which have to be inquired into thoroughly, and there is also the question of deportations; so that it is necessary to have these interior offices which carry on this work. After the inquiry that was held this year, I am satisfied that there is no unnecessary staffing of our offices in Canada. We have the staffs down to practically a working basis, and the adjustments in salaries have been such as to make the situation fairly satisfactory.


Frank S. Cahill: There is an item of $212,000 for salaries in Canada, and, according to the minister's statement, there is a saving of $98,000, presumably on 115 employees, but in place of that $212,000 there is no saving on the boundary inspectors getting $183,000. According to the Estimates there is an increase of $25,000, so that there is a difference of practically $120,000 of increases to employees in Canada. What percentage of increase would that be? How many employees are there?
Mr. CA'LDER: I have not been quite able to follow the hon. gentleman. It is true that we have made a net reduction at the rate of $98,000; that is, if these people had all been retired at the first of' the year, there would have been a saving in annual salaries of $98,000, but these changes took place at varying times of the year, so that there has not been that net saving. On the other hand, as I have already explained, we have found it necessary to adjust salaries in our outside service in Canada, and while any increases, have been for comparatively small amounts, they make a large aggregate. These adjustments would have had to be made anyway, and when the salary schedules are brought down by the Civil Service Commission still further increases in salaries will have to be made if we are to retain these men in the service. We cannot expect to carry on these services at tne same rate of salaries as were paid prior *to 1914, and consequently we must look for increases of this kind.


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: Is it the intention to extend the work in 'Great Britain during the coming year, or simply to maintain the staffs that have been there during the past year? Now that the war has ended it is important that the greatest possible attention should be paid towards bringing immigrants out from Great Britain, provided that people intend to immigrate irom the old land, and I think much more atten-

tion should be' paid to bringing immigrants from Great Britain than from the United States. The policy enunciated by the minister this afternoon would almost lead one to believe that the old policy is still going to be followed of paying more attention to Western Canada than to the older provinces. I have always advocated that it is not in the interest of Canada to have immigration controlled by the Department of the Interior. I should like to know if anything is going to be done towards supplying men for labour, particularly for the farms, in the old provinces. I would make special reference to Ontario, because there is no question that at present there is altogether too much land under cultivation in that province in view of the number of people who are there to take care of it.


James Alexander Calder: I think we shall find it absolutely necessary to increase very largely our expenditure in Great Britain if we expect to receive any immigration from there, not in the immediate future, but one or two or three years from now. In other words, we must arrange now for the necessary publicity and propaganda work to be carried on to secure results some time hence. That work costs money. During the war our expenditure in Great Britain for advertising and publicity was cut down to practically nothing, for reasons which must be apparent. We have carried a certain small expenditure, but that has not affected the situation. To get results, you must plan ahead. As a matter of fact, probably the most effective work that is being done in Great Britain is the work we do among the school children. Practically every person who is interested in the immigration movement realizes that. The seed sown in the mind of the child at school will bear fruit when he comes of age. That class of work costs money, and we shall have to expend money in Great Britain in a fairly large way, and begin right now, because we are a little behind time, if we want to get results either next year or the year following.
I am very doubtful whether iwe shall secure much farm labour from Great Britain. Only some fifteen per cent of the population of Great Britain is engaged in agriculture, and every effort is being made by the State to keep every possible man on the land and get others to go on it. It seems to me, therefore, we shall have great difficulty in getting farm labour from Great Britain. I can assure the hon. gentleman, however, that every effort will be

made in that direction, because I thoroughly understand the need of that class of labour in Canada. I also thoroughly agree with my hon. friend that a large percentage of those people, if they can be induced to do so, should be encouraged to settle in the older provinces of Canada. Our policy shall not be sectional; it should be nationwide. In co-operation with the provinces we should endeavour to work out some plan whereby any immigration coming will be distributed as evenly as- possible throughout the whole of Canada.
Mr. RICHARDSON; I was told to-day that there was a demand for 5,000 farm labourers in Canada, but that there was great difficulty in getting men for the work. Should not that situation be taken care of by the returned soldier? Does he indicate any disposition to take up that kind of work?
Mr. ClALDER:	I do not know exactly
what the situation is in regard to farm labour, but I am told that in Western Canada it has very much improved, and that there is not the dearth there was a month ago. I understand the problem is being very well taken care of, but just where the labour is coming from, I do not know. 'Some time ago it was thought it would be necessary to import farm labour from the United States, but the situation has changed, and recently we have not had any request from the Western Provinces for a move in that direction.


Donald Sutherland: Just a word with
regard to the prospect of immigration. The hon. minister says, not in the immediate future, but in a year or two or three from now. The expenditure has been made in Great Britain already. We have had an army overseas for the last four years that has been carrying on propaganda work there which is bound to have its effect in the immediate future. The majority of the men our soldiers have come in contact with over there in the army, so far as I can learn, have signified their desire and intention to come out to Canada if they can possibly arrange to do so. I do not think it is necessary to launch propaganda in the schools or anything of that kind. I -think the Department of Immigration will find that during the next few years, indeed, right in the immediate future, their efforts will be taxed to the utmost to take care of the people who desire to come to this country from Great Britain, notwithstanding all the efforts that may be made to retain them over there. There is a condition
1654	'
of affairs existing in the old world at the present time the effects of which no one can at present accurately determine. The condition of affairs in this country to-day is such that I can well understand the reluctance of the Government to take a stand that would aggravate it in any way. But we should not close our eyes to the situation; it is one that will have to be met. Canada is suffering as no other country in the world has ever suffered, for people to till its soil. Under the conditions that exist to-day it is absolutely impossible to keep farm help on the farm; they have been going into the towns and cities faster during the last few months than at any time in the past, notwithstanding the crying demand for men to till the soil. This is an artificial condition of affairs. You are eliminating competition in many walks of life in the industrial centres. Not only are you to-day threatening to limit or curtail competition in the rural districts, but you are being asked to enact legislation that will discourage production of foodstuffs. The demand is being made here in Ottawa, and in all the cities throughout Canada, that agricultural products should not be permitted to be exported from this country.
I could not help reflecting upon the statement made by the leader of the Opposition (Mr. McKenzie) this afternoon that only about ten per cent of the food consumed in the province of Nova Scotia was raised in that province. We are practically reaching that condition of affairs in the older provinces generally, and if this condition continues Canada will soon be an importing, instead of an exporting, country for many essential and important food products.
I have some figures here for 1911 which show that a very serious condition obtained at that time-and do not forget that the immigrants that come to Canada do not by any means all remain here. The report of the High Commissioner for Canada shows that in 1907 151,216 British subjects came to Canada, and 33,691 returned to Great Britain. In 1908, 81,321 came to Canada, and 39,866 returned, or almost fifty per cent. That was the condition of affairs which existed for many years. We have been boasting about the tremendous immigration to this country but it has been to a large extent only transitory, from one-third to one-half going back again. Since the war we have been at a standstill in this matter, and our agricultural industries have not only been stagnant but have been going back. It may be that we have increased production, but the agricultural conditions of the land, particularly in the

oia provinces, is most regrettable. The bad farming that has been carried on through these years in order to produce as much as was possible is to-day showing its effects, and the results in the future are bound to be worse than at present. If this condition continues and the price of labour in the cities and towns still goes up the cost of living will not be reduced but will go higher. No other result is possible from the conditions that prevail in Canada and elsewhere. I appreciate the difficulties with which the minister is confronted. Possibly he may have some well defined policy in mind which it might not be in the public interest to announce at this time, we may as well face the issue as it is. We have either to lose our present standing as an agricultural people, or we must put forth great efforts to the end that the people in Great Britain who intend to come *here shall be enabled to do so even if assistance must be given. That may not be a popular thing to say in the towns and cities, but it is a fact which will have to be faced. I am glad that the Immigration Department will be under the control of a minister who will devote his entire time and attention to this great and difficult question which will confront Canada from now on.


Mr. MICHAEL CLARK:: They say that
the only thing you can do with a prophet is to disbelieve him, and I must say that I do not anticipate the flood of British immigrants to this country that my hon. friend from South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) expects. I do not know what conditions in Britain he refers to that are going to induce that flood. I was speaking to a commercial gentleman from Manchester a few days ago and he told me that it was tolerably well understood that in Britain they have already re-absorbed into civil occupation eighty per cent of returned soldiers. As an illustration of how that re-absorption is taking place, it might interest the Committee, who may not have noticed the figures, to know that in the month of January the shipping tonnage turned out on the Clyde was 15,000; in February it was 22,000; in March, 40,000; and in April, 86,000. I have given the figures without the odd numbers, but in thousands they are correct, or my memory has undergone a more sudden failure than I had reason to suspect. Eighty-six thousand tons constituted a record for April for the Clyde with the single exception of the month of April in which the steamer Aqui-

tania was turned out. I have given the broad fact about the reabsorption of returned soldiers into civil occupation, and a local illustration of what is going on there; and on these grounds I very much doubt if my hon. friend's prophecies will be fulfilled in the immediate future. It would be difficult for him to find an inducement for these people to come from the Clyde, where occupation is being taken up with such haste and avidity, to settle, let us say, in Winnipeg at the present time. I would rather stay on the Clyde, and so would my hon. friend if he were there. To my hon. friend the minister, whose patience and good nature have been the subject of my admiration since I came into this House shortly after eight o'clock, I would like to offer a suggestion, which is not of a critical kind, but is of a helpful and constructive nature, in regard to the getting of immigration from Great Britain. I want him to take advantage of his closer proximity to the Minister of Finance (Sir Thomas White), to impress upon that somewhat obdurate individual the need of an immediate, substantial and generous cut in the tariff against British goods. I wish he would explain to the Minister of Finance- and I wish -that hon. gentleman would give to that explanation the same wonderful concentration of mind that he shows when eating the heart out of a document or carrying on the omnivorous reading that we all know he does,-that if vessels from Great Britain were encouraged by a lower tariff to come here with British goods, there would undoubtedly come commercial travellers who would observe this country and see the magnificent opportunities it offers, and there would follow immigrants to this country. If he would only explain all that to the Minister of Finance, his Budget might send his reputation higher than it stands even at the present time, and might astonish us all. I may be mistaken, but I feel perfectly certain in my own mind that immigrants would follow the goods; that farmers would be made out of the immigrants; they would raise other goods from the soil to pay for the goods brought in, and we would have cargoes coming and cargoes going. Capital would come with both goods and immigrants, and you would build up a great trade and a useful immigration without a single agent in Britain-just by a simple method of cutting down the tariff. This could be accomplished if only we could first operate upon the mind of the Minister of Finance.

Contingencies in Canada, British and Foreign Agencies, and general immigration expenses, $775,000.	,


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I see there is an increase of $225,000.


James Alexander Calder: This item covers the general expenditures of the department in Canada, Great Britain and the United States, including such matters as advertising, printing, general expenditures, apart from salaries, at sea ports such as St. John, Halifax, Boston, and New York, and our offices at places like Winnipeg, Montreal, etc. It covers the deportation expenditures, boundary inspection expenditures, hospitals, locating of settlers, inspection of employment agencies, inspection of British immigrant children, general expenses and bonuses. There is a range of general expenditures covering our offices in Canada, Great Britain and the United States for such items as rent, fuel, telephones, express, temporary help, and all other expenditures of that class. The heavy item in these expenditures is advertising and printing. Last year we spent $216,000 in advertising and some $34,000 in printing.
Our deportation expenditures amounted to $12,000; boundary inspections, $37,800; and general expenses $72,700. All told, our expenditures under this head last year were $501,900; we are asking this year for a vote of $775,000. Whether or not that money will be expended will depend very largely upon conditions. We may find it necessary to increase our expenditures in Great Britain. Our general expenditures there have been comparatively small. Notwithstanding what has been said by the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland), I am convinced that it is necessary that certain general expenditures should be carried on. While it is true that Canada has been well advertised during the period of the war, nevertheless we will find it necessary to carry on certain work there if we are to control immigration in any sense at all. Let me illustrate. It is estimated that at the present time, there is a surplus of
3,000,000 women in Great Britain. Let us take down the bars and invite these women to our shores and we will get them by the hundreds of thousands. It is very desirable, especially in the near future, that there should be a selection made, that we should not invite to this country people who are going to aggravate the situation existing at the present time. You cannot do that unless you expend money to control this immigration. While it is true
that thousands of people may desire to come to this country, we must see to it in so far as possible, that those who come are assured of employment. We simply cannot afford to have our cities flooded with people Who cannot secure employment. In speaking of the general expenditures we could very easily use $100,000 in Great Britain for carrying on very necessary work. We are also increasing our expenditures in the United States and II think probably here in Canada there is certain very useful work that might be carried on. We must consider the problem of endeavouring to get some of our people out of our cities and back on the land. If by a wise expenditure of money we can cause a movement in that direction the money will be well spent. While we are asking for an increased amount of something like $200,000, it is not the intention to expend that money unless we find there is an opportunity for expending it usefully. Last year we took a vote of $1,135,000 and I think our expenditures were in the neighbourhood of $1,000,000. We	have	under-expended the voteby	about	$130,000. It	is difficult
at this time, with conditions as they are, to forecast with any degree of certainty or accuracy what our expenditures in the field of immigration may be during the coming year. The Government must have some latitude in that respect. Conditions will likely change very considerably in the next three or four months, and we should be prepared to meet those changed conditions. If we find the situation such as to enable us to wisely expend money in that direction, the money should be available.


Frank S. Cahill: What amount was spent on advertising last year, and what check is there on advertising? How is the advertising done in Great Britain and the United States?


James Alexander Calder: The amount expended on advertising in the United States last year was $209,509.73. Our advertising for a period of years in the United States has been carried on through two advertising agencies, the Touzalin Agency and the Western Newspaper Union. In addition to those, Rand, McNally & Co., and one or two small concerns, have done some advertising, but it did not amount to very much. I recently received a report which states that the work carried on has been quite satisfactory and that we are securing results. In Great Britain, the advertising

carried on last year totalled only $6,483. Since the war broke out there has been very little possibility of getting immigrants from the Old Country, and we thought it advisable to close down our advertising there. I would judge that in past years our advertising in Great Britain must have been comparatively heavy. I cannot give the figures now.


Frank S. Cahill: Was this expenditure of $209,000 in the United States an increase over former years?


James Alexander Calder: There has been practically no increase. It has been running about the same amount from year to year.


Frank S. Cahill: Has there been no decrease? .


James Alexander Calder: No, it has been running in the neighbourhood of $200,000 a year.


Frank S. Cahill: Are these yearly contracts?


James Alexander Calder: I think so.


Frank S. Cahill: Why did the minister spend as much money in the United States last year, for instance, as in the year previous on account of advertising for immigration, when he does not expect to get the results that were obtained before? Why not cut down the advertising there as well as in Great Britain? It seems an extraordinary amount to spend for this purpose.


James Alexander Calder: There is a great movement of people at the present time, and has been for years past, from the United States to Canada, whereas during the past three or four years it has been impossible to get immigrants from England or the continent of Europe on account of shipping conditions. The shipping conditions now are such, and will be for months to come, that we cannot expect people to come to Canada from Great Britain. On the other hand, there has been nothing to interfere with the immigration work between Canada and the United States.


Frank S. Cahill: Nothing more than that the United States being at war the younger people were not allowed to leave that country. Would it not have been economy to take that fact into account, and that we were not likely to have many people moving from the United States to Canada-at least not young people, who are usually the ones that leave?


James Alexander Calder: To a certain extent what the hon. gentleman says is true; that is, that we might naturally expect a smaller immigration from the United States than
[iMir. Calder. ]
in previous years, and as a matter of fact that is the way it turned out. Nevertheless, we did receive somewhere in the neighbourhood of sixty thousand people from the United States last year, and some seventy-five thousand people the year before, and there was every indication last year that there might have been a very much larger movement. However, there is the other viewpoint: In the field of immigration you cannot always get results immediately. That is, you must carry on your publicity work in such a way as to so affect people that they will move probably in two, thsee, or four years from the time when they first began to read about Canada. I feel that we must keep up our publicity work with that object in view. As a matter of fact, I think we should have expended a larger amount of money in Great Britain for the same reason.


Mr. J. ARCHAMBAULT (Chambly and Vercheres) (Translation):: May I enquire from the hon. gentleman (Mr. Calder) to what nationality belong the leaders of the Winnipeg strike who, according to newspaper reports, have just set up a Soviet or Bolshevik government?
I am informed on reliable authority that the leaders in that movement are, without exception immigrants from Great Britain, born in England and who have come to Canada directly from England.
I am pointing out the fact, so that our immigration agents in England may be instructed to put a stop to such immigration.
Should the hon. gentleman be in possession of the facts, perhaps he will deem it proper to acquaint the House with them.


James Alexander Calder: I am very sorry that I could not follow the hon. gentleman's remarks, but I understand he made inquiry as to the nationality of those who are responsible for the present situation in Winnipeg. I regret that I am not in a position to give the 'hon. gentleman that information. If the wires were not down I might possibly be able to get the information which he seeks, but I am afraid the situation just now is such that we will have to wait a little while before it can be obtained.	[DOT]


Joseph Archambault: If the hon. gentleman will take my advice, and seek information, I may suggest that he communicate with the Commissioner of the N. W. Mounted Police who has sup-

plied us with some facts in that regard. I trust that at the next sitting of the House, the hon. gentleman will be in a position to enlighten us in regard to that matter.


Frank S. Cahill: What amount of money was spent for advertising in Canada last year, and what amount does the minister anticipate will be spent in this country in the next fiscal year?


James Alexander Calder: The total, amount spent on advertising in Canada last year was $955.67.


Frank S. Cahill: I cannot quite understand why this item should be increased by $274,000 this year. I do not think the minister expects to spend a great deal more in the United States in advertising, but he does anticipate making a much larger outlay in Great Britain. He has also intimated that he is going to spend some money in Canada for advertising if I understood him correctly?


James Alexander Calder: There is a possibility.


Frank S. Cahill: A considerable amount of Government money has already been spent in Canada, and I hope the minister is not holding in this item a "slush fund" to be expended in this country to provide advertising for the "Consumers' Periodical," which the Government hopes will continue friendly. I cannot understand why the Immigration Department should spend money in this country to any great extent for this purpose. If that is what the increase is for I think it would be well not to vote it, I think we can do very well without it. I am of opinion that enough money has been spent in Canada in advertising by this Government.


James Alexander Calder: I referred to the fact that it might be advisable to make certain expenditures in Canada with a view to causing a movement of our people from the towns and cities into the country. That does not necessarily mean advertising. There is one class of expenditure we are not going into at all now that would be most effective in carrying on immigration work, viz: through lectures and films. The suggestion has recently come to the department that in the United States, Great Britain, and Canada, we should establish a service of that kind. If once established it is going to cost some money. I doubt whether we would be able to accomplish anything effective in that direction unless anywhere from $75,000 to probably $125,000 were expended. Yet, that class of advertising-because that is what it really is- would be the very best the Government could carry on. You can convey a message, or represent a scene through the moving pictures in a way that cannot be effectively done by other means. There is another class of work that has been cut off during the past few years in United States and Great Britain, and that is the use of lectures. We have not had any lectures given in the United States for some years past, nor have we had any in Great Britain, and it seems to me that if the opportunity presents itself we can very wisely spend some money in that way. The proposed increase in this vote is not entirely for advertising, although I think we will have to do some more of it. I am sure we will have to expend money on publicity work in Great Britain; but there are many other directions in which money can be spent for the purpose of carrying on very necessary immigration propaganda.


Joseph Archambault: Might I ask
whether in this vote of $775,000, any money has been provided for emigration from France and Belgium?


James Alexander Calder: The hon. member for
Maisonneuve (Mr. Lemieux) raised that question and we had a full discussion of the situation this afternoon. I do not wish to delay the Committee, and if the hon. gentleman will refer to Hansard to-morrow he will be able to read the discussion. However, if he wishes to further disouss the matter I shall be only too glad to do so.


Joseph Archambault: I do not wish to enter upon any discussion, but merely to learn whether any provision has been made for emigration from those countries?
* Mr. CALDER: This vote will cover any expenditures necessary for that purpose.
Administration of Chinese immigration- salaries and contingencies, $3'2,0'0'0.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: The minister hinted the other day that there was to be a change in the law .with regard to Chinese immigration. Has any new policy been adopted?


James Alexander Calder: Since I made that statement in the House I have not had an opportunity of discussing the matter further with my colleagues. This matter, of course, involves a question of policy which must be carefully considered. Personally I am convinced the proper thing to do is to abolish the head-tax. It is quite possible that later in the session an announcement will be made.

Relief of distressed Canadians in countries other than the United States, $6,000.


Arthur Bliss Copp: This is the only item which does not show an increase. How much was expended last year?


James Alexander Calder: Between $1,600 and $2,000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: How ijoes the minister get authentic information with regard to Canadians who are in distress in a foreign country, and how are they provided for?


James Alexander Calder: Such cases, if arising in Great Britain, are usually brought to our attention by the British Consul. I had a case before me the other day of a Canadian who was stranded in the Argentine and wanted to get back to Canada. Then, there was a case recently of a Canadian away over in Assyria. Of course, we have a number of cases in Great Britain. They are reported to us and if they look like cases where assistance ought to be given, aid is granted.
Exhibitions-salaries and general expenses, $50,000.


Arthur Bliss Copp: What exhibitions are these?


James Alexander Calder: This work was transferred to the Department of Immigration early in 1918. In the United States we make a number of exhibits in State and county fairs. Occasionally we have very large exhibits.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Exhibits of what?


James Alexander Calder: Almost entirely agricultural. We are preparing small exhibits to be seen by callers at our own offioes. We are putting the same kind of exhibits in our United States offices. We are preparing also small exhibits for schools in the United States and Great Britain. This work is very useful and interesting and very helpful to our propaganda.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Is this a new work?


James Alexander Calder: No, it has been carried on for years, varying from time to time according to requirements. I went ovei; the matter with our chief official from the United States and officials of the department here and decided what would be a reasonable programme for this year. It is estimated that this amount will take care of the work we have in mind.


Mr. ARCHAMB  AULT@translation: Could the minister tell us how much money was spent, last year, with respect to those exhibitions?


James Alexander Calder: $25,000.


Joseph Archambault: Twenty-five thousand dollars.
Department of Marine and Fisheries-salaries, including Deputy Minister at $6,000, Assistant 'Deputy Minister and Naval constructor at $4,500 each, $241,650.


Arthur Bliss Copp: There is quite an increase
here.
Hon. C. C. BALLAiNTYNE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries): The increases are the usual statutory increases, with the exception of two. We ask that the assistant deputy minister and the naval constructor each be given an additional $500. The duties of the assistant deputy minister have been exceptionally heavy, due to the shipbuilding programme and to the extra work arising from the war. The same applies to Mr. Duguid, the naval constructor. Both men are excellent officials in every way, and I hope that the Committee will agree to the small increase in salary that we ask for them.


John Howard Sinclair: Is the naval constructor responsible for the naval ships that were built during the war?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No.
Ocean and river service-maintenance and repairs to Dominion steamers and ice-breakers, $1,500,000.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Hon. members will notice that this is the same amount as was voted last year. Twenty-five ships in all are being operated.


Mr. ARTHURS:: I should like to call the attention of the minister to the wages that are being paid on some of the boats, particularly in the lighthouse service. I have special reference to a boat plying out of Parry Sound in the service of the Department of Marine. The answer I received from the department was that wages were being reduced on the Great Lakes, and that they could not afford to pay ordinary deckhands on that boat more than $35 or $40 per month. In view of the high cost of living and the general increases in salaries, a wage of from $35 to $40 per month is entirely inadequate and should be increased.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: While I do not
know at the moment whether they are receiving as low a wage as that, I shall be glad to look into the matter.
Examiners of masters and mates, $48,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister explain this appropriation?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The appropriation last year was $16,500, so that there is an increase this year of $1,500. This increase is to provide for the increase in the cost of nautical supplies and other necessities in connection with the service and for the remuneration of examiners.


John Howard Sinclair: At what points are there examiners?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have examiners at Halifax, Quebec, Yarmouth, North Sydney, Charlottetown, St. John; in the inland waters division, at Toronto, Oolling-wood and West Selkirk, Manitoba; in the western division, at Vancouver, Victoria, Nelson, Edmonton and Prince Rupert.


John Howard Sinclair: How many men passed their examinations last year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The figures are as
follows:	Number of	Number of
	examina-	certifi-
	tions.	cates issued.
Halifax. . . .		78
Quebec			26
Yarmouth. . . .		20
North Sydney.		 21	10
Charlottetown.		2
St. John. . . .		6
Vancouver. . .	
23	23Victoria. . . .	
26	25Toronto. . . .	41Collingwood. .	2Nelson	2West 'Selkirk,	Manitoba. . 4	4Edmonton. . .	
0	0-	-Total.. .	251
Since the war started, there has been a gradual falling off in the number of persons applying for examinations for masters' and mates' certificates.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Where are those examination papers prepared? Is there one universal authority for the preparation, the papers then being distributed to the different centres for the purpose of the examination?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There is a competent officer called an examiner in charge of each of those places, but if an examination is going to take place for a captain or mate, the examinations would be exactly the same in each of the places that I have mentioned.
Investigations into wrecks, $12,300.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This is the same
amount as was voted last year, and it is to enable the commissioner to carry on the necessary investigations when wrecks occur.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: How many wrecks were there last year?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Thirty, including
strandings.
Expenses of schools of navigation, $8,000.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: How many schools are conducted in the Maritime Provinces, and where are they established?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There are schools at St. John, N.B., under Captain Owen as instructor; Halifax, under Captain John Simmons; North Sydney, under Captain James Sutherland; and Yarmouth, under B. R. Hilton.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: What are the salaries paid to those teachers?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Captain Owen gets $75 per month; Captain Simmons, $100; Captain James Sutherland, $75, and Captain Hilton, $66.66. Captain P. L. Lachance, at Quebec, gets $50 per month. Captain J. E. Murphy, lecturer at Yarmouth, gets $250 per season, and Captain George C. Coles, lecturer at Cbllingwood, Ont., gets $250 per season. Then Captain Charles Eddie, of Vancouver, gives his services free.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Does the teacher at North Sydney get paid the year round?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I think he does.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: This work, I believe, takes his whole time. I know Captain Sutherland personally, and he is a very good navigator and an old sea captain, although not a very old man. He is a very capable man, and as regards making a good average of passes from the pupils that attend his school, he has done well. He has a wife and family, and as he is afflicted with rheumatism he is not very capable of doing other work than attending to this school.
Now, $75 a month is not much with which to pay rent and board himself and his family. The captain himself never said anything to me about it, hut his wife did, and I promised to bring to the notice of the minister that it was pretty hard sledr ding for him to get along on his present salary.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I thank the hon. member for drawing attention to Captain James Sutherland's salary. It does seem rather small in these times, and I shall be very glad to give the matter my very best consideration.


John Howard Sinclair: Are these teachers allowed to charge any fees to their pupils?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Everything is free.


John Howard Sinclair: Last year, if 1 remember rightly, there was a proposal to amalgamate the Navigation School at Halifax with the Technical College. Have any' steps been taken in that direction?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Navigation and the Technical Schools^have 'been amalgamated. We are paying Captain Simons, as instructor, $100 a month.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Are our certificates recognized by the English Board of Trade?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Our certificates are recognized the same as the British certificates.
Registration of shipping, $0,000.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There is an increase of $3,000 over last year's vote, due to shipbuilding activities in Canada which necessitated all the ships being registered.


John Howard Sinclair: Has the minister a list of the ships registered during the past year, with their tonnage, distinguishing between steam and sailing vessels?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am sorry I have not that information at hand, but I will try and get it for my hon. friend.


William Duff: I understood the minister to say that this increase of $3,000 was due to having to pay the registrars for registering the new ships. I was under the impression that the owners of ships paid the registration-fees. I know we have to do so in some parts of Nova Scotia. When a ship is launched, it costs the owner from $15 to $25 to get her registered. Is the minister aware of that fact, and what are the registrars paid for other work, such as transferring ships?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. member is quite right. I am -asking for the travelling and office expenses in connection with supervising the registry of these ships.


William Duff: In Nova Scotia the owner also pays the travelling expenses when the registrars have to travel to ascertain the ship's dimensions.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The expenditure for 1917-18 was $2,615.90. The reason for the increase this year is that we have to supervise the registry of these numerous ships, and that entails considerable expense. If we were back in pre-war times, when not nearly so much shipbuilding was going on, the expenditure would be about $2,000.


William Duff: If it is for the travelling expense of officials sent out from Ottawa I can understand it, but I could not understand our voting this amount for the local registrars.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is not for the local registrars, but for the expenses of the officials sent out from Ottawa.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: If a man was launching a vessel at -Sydney, for instance, who is the local official there who would take the dimensions and certify to the capacity of the ship?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The registrar is Mr. F. I. Stewart, whom I think my hon. friend knows very well.	-


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I had a sort of a notion that it was somebody in connection with the Customs that did it; but I understand it is a specific appointment by itself?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes, it is a specific appointment.
Inspection of live stock shipments, $.'1,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Where are these shipments inspected?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The duties of the
inspector are to carry out the regulations in regard to the health, security and safe carriage , of live stock on ships. At points where no inspectors are appointed, the port warden or chief officer of Customs are ex officio the inspectors. No clearance is granted to ships carrying live stock unless a certificate is issued. During the season of 1917 a very large number of horses were shipped from the port of Montreal to France-1,455 in all.


John Howard Sinclair: We all know that some years ago live stock were allowed to be landed in Great Britain, but had to be slaughtered shortly after their arrival. It is now reported that there is a complete embargo against entrance of live stock into Grea/t Britain, which is in violation-not of any specific agreement-but of the announcement that some improvement would be made in the conditions. I would like to know what the situation is at the present time.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: If the hon. member will repeat that question when the Minister of Agriculture has his Estimates before the Committee I am sure he will receive the information. It does not come within my province.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Has the minister any
control over the provision that is made for

the shipping of stock from different ports? At certain seasons of the year there is considerable live stock shipped from the port of North Sydney to Newfoundland, and people there who are interested in the prevention of cruelty to animals complain very often that cattle are not provided with proper shelter. When they come by train and have to wait for a day or two or more for the boat, sometimes they suffer considerably through exposure and lack of proper attention. At the request of a gentleman from Antigonish who was in the cattle business I brought this matter to the notice of the Department of Agriculture last year, when. I was told by the Minister of Agriculture that the Minister of Railways had to do with such accommodation. I wish to bring it now to the notice of the minister as I see he is providing for something in connection with live stock at these places. Is there any person at the port of North Sydney whose business it is to inspect cattle that are shipped to Newfoundland?
Mr. BAlLLANTYNE :	The Department ol
Marine has no control over live stock that is landed on the wharves at North Sydney. Our regulations apply to live stock when on board ship. The Minister of Agriculture ,was quite right last year when, in his answer to the hon. member, he said that the taking care of cattle on the wharves at North Sydney was in the jurisdiction of the Minister of Railways. Our regulations with regard to cattle on board ship cover:
1-	The number of live stock the ship is adapted to carry.
2-	The number actually on board for intended voyage.
3-	That the arrangements for carrying live stock are approved by inspector.
4-	That the shelters or fittings are substantial enough to ensure safety of live stock for the voyage.
5-	That ship is seaworthy.
Our jurisdiction begins and ends in seeing that live stock are properly taken care of when on board ship.
To continue subsidies for wrecking plants- Quebec, Maritime Provinces and .British Columbia, $35,000.


John Howard Sinclair: To whom is this subsidy paid?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The department is subsidizing two wrecking plants, one at Quebec and the other at Esquimalt, B.C. The subsidy to the Quebec Dredging and Wrecking Company is $25,000, and that to the British Columbia Salvage Company, $10,000. This is to enable the companies to maintain an adequate plant to assist
effectively vessels in distress in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and on the British Columbia coast. We think it wise to have these wrecking plants ready in case a steamer should run ashore or be in distress in any way.


John Howard Sinclair: What has this wrecking plant at Quebec done during the past year to save property?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I regretf I cannot give a detailed answer. I can only say generally that the Quebec Wrecking Company has the steamer Lord Strathcona and such other plant as may be required to the satisfaction of the Department of Marine. Some ships have run ashore and others have been wrecked, but I cannot give the name of every ship and the number that have required assistance from the company. This is a vote that has been taken for a number of years.


John Howard Sinclair: This is a large subsidy, and there is a question in my mind as to whether it is justifiable that we should spend this money unless we are getting results. We have wrecks frequently on the Atlantic coast in Nova Scotia and I have never heard of this company operating there, or being of any service on that coast. As we are asked to vote $25,000 to this company I think it should be shown that some service that is worth while is being rendered. The Government steamer Voya-geur was in the ice in the St. Lawrence river below Quebec last January, and the Prince Edward Island ferry was called upon to take it out. But we did not hear that the wrecking plant of Quebec had shown up at all. I keep some track of these matters, and have not heard of a single instance during the past yea* in which this wrecking plant has been serviceable. I would not feel like voting for a.continuance of this subsidy unless the minister could show that some useful work was being done.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I do not think 1 should have much difficulty in doing that. Owing to the aids to navigation by various governments for a number of years, and the depth and safety of the channel, we have had very few wrecks indeed in any part of the St. Lawrence channel. The Quebec Salvage Company are supposed to render assistance to any ships in distress from Quebec to Belle Isle and I think it would be a very unwise policy not to vote this sum. We have to keep a wrecking plant ready in case a large and expensive

passenger or freight ship should get out of the channel or run on the rocks. We could hardly say that we did not anticipate any accident, and it is no argument to say that we should not have a plant ready to help expensive ships because accidents are not frequent. With regard to the Canadian Government ship Voyageur, de did not ask the Prince Edward Island ferry to' go to her assistance because she would not have been of substantial use. Of course, she had considerable difficulty in getting from Quebec to Halifax in January but she succeeded, with the assistance that was given her by the Government ice breakers.
I hope the Committee will see the necessity for this vote. One keeps fire insurance on a building not because he is anxious for a fire but because of the necessity for protection. The same argument applies in this case.


John Howard Sinclair: The minister is not altogether informed on this question. They did call on the Prince Edward Island ferry to help the Voyageur out of the ice. I know that fact myself, and the Minister of Railways or some of his officials * can give the particulars of Jthe matter. They did not get assistance from the Prince Edward Island ferry because the Department did not wish to expose the boat to any risk. It is an extraordinary thing that we sr.ould be paying a subsidy of $25,000 for a wrecking plant at Quebec and that when the Voyageur was in the ice for several days endeavouring to get to Halifax nobody ever thought of getting that wrecking plant to help her. The Canada and the Montcalm had to be sent up to assist the Voyageur. The Quebec Wrecking Plant was not heard of at all.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: For the very good reason that our arrangement with the Quebec Salvage Company is for the season of navigation only. When the season of navigation closes the Quebec Salvage and Wrecking Plant is not supposed to perform any service until navigation opens the following season. We had both of our ice breakers with the Voyageur and we had asked the Prince Edward Island ferry to hold herself in readiness if we wanted her to go to the rescue of the Voyageur, but happily that was not necessary. I cannot impress upon hon. members too much the necessity of having this vote go through for the Quebec Salvage Company, because to be without a wrecking plant when there is such a large amount of shipping passing up and down the St. Lawrence -would be a very serious thing.


John Dowsley Reid: One of the main reasons for maintaining this wrecking plant is that it helps to keep down the insurance on vessels coming up the St. Lawrence. Both Lloyds and the British American Shipping Company insisted on having a wrecking plant ready at any time in case of anything happening to a vessel.


John Howard Sinclair: We had a-wrecking plant on the coast of Cape Breton some years ago but the subsidy was discontinued and we never missed the plant. We have been able to get along just as well as before.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Last year the Quebec Salvage Company were the means of saving the large White Star transport, the Winnifredia. If we had not had the salvage plant I am quite certain that ship would have been a total loss.


John Howard Sinclair: What wrecking equipment has the company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is rather difficult to anticipate all the questions that may be asked by hon. members. But, I may say that they have a very modern wrecking plant in addition to the steamer Strath-cona. I have not before me a list of the plant but I can get it if necessary.


John Dowsley Reid: They have the steamer Strathcona, a large schooner, pumps and everything necessary in connection with a wrecking plant.


Joseph Archambault: What are the
names of the persons interested in the Quebec Salvage Company?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The late Mr. Andrew Allan was president of the company, the Canadian Pacific have an interest in it, and also the Allan line.


Mr. McKENZTE:: We have no objection to a proper wrecking plant being maintained' on the St. Lawrence. I think it is a very proper precaution, and I hope the minister will on some later occasion be able to give us a proper description of that company, and show that they are provided with all necessary plant. But I am sorry to say that, although we have splendid navigation and fine harbours in Eastern Nova Scotia, some times we have wrecks. We have wrecks on the west coast of Newfoundland which must be attended to from Cape Breton, the nearest point, and around the eastern side of Cape Breton on the Atlantic where steamers sometimes have the misfortune to get into difficulties. It is no consolation for the shipmaster or owner whose ship is ashore at Gabarus, for instance, in

the eastern part of Cape Breton, to know there is a wrecking plant at Quebec, because that is too far away. The Government used to give a subsidy to the Dominion Coal Company, or as it is known now, the Dominion 'Steel Company, who had, and still have, powerful tugs of their own, and also had steamers but these were commandeered during the war-I presume they will soon get them back again. That company used fo assist wrecks and get a subsidy. I always thought until to-night that the subsidy was continued. I cannot very well understand why it was discontinued, because they were rendering very excellent service. Is there any substantial reason for the discontinuance of that subsidy? I am not talking about the desirability of the. company getting the money, but I am looking to the security that shipowners would have.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The subsidy referred to by. the hon. member was granted before my time. It was not in my Estimates last year, nor is it in the Estimates this year. But I will look up the records. I hope to be either on Naval or Fisheries Estimates to-toorrow, and I shall be very glad to give the hon. member more information with regard to this matter than I have before me now.
'Mr. TOLMIE: As far as the Pacific coast is concerned, the subsidy paid to the wrecking outfit there is very much appreciated. The company receiving that subsidy renders valuable service and has succeeded in saving a number of very valuable ships.


William Duff: I notice that the item covers wrecking plants, " Quebec, Maritime Provinces and British Columbia." But there is nothing for the Maritime Provinces, and so the item does not represent the facts quite correctly. However, I am not finding very much fault with that. If a subsidy is necessary on the St. Lawrence and the Pacific coast a subsidy should be granted for the protection of shipping on the Atlantic coast. We have more business on the Atlantic coast than there is in the gulf of St. Lawrence or on the Pacific coast. If you are going to give subsidies to wrecking plants in the St. Laurence and in British Columbia the harbours of Halifax and-St. John should have plants for the protection of shipping on the Atlantic coast. I would like to say a word of apprfeciation for what the Department of Marine and Fisheries does to help shipping on the Atlantic coast. Whilst we have no wrecking plant, if they have a steamer anywhere within 150 miles they send her to the assistance of a vessel
in distress. We have to give the department credit for that. They have rendered valuable service both around the Magdalen Islands and at other points. In the absence of the minister some few days ago I asked the Acting Minister if the department is sending a steamer to the Magdalen Islands this spring to help vessels there in oase they get into trouble. There are about a hundred ships up there. About three weeks ago there was a great deal of running ice about Grindstone island and at Grand Entry. It seems to me that if it is possible at all one of the Government vessels should be sent up there to look after these ships while they are in the North Bay and also fishing in the gulf of St. Lawrence.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The steamer Stanley is on her route now placing the buoys, and from the information we have so far received the steamers in the ice are getting along all right. If that should turn out not to be the case we will be very glad to send them whatever assistance they need. Referring to the Dominion Steel Company, I have just been informed that the reason they discontinued work some four years ago was because they stated they no longer wished to perform any wrecking work, therefore the subsidy was no longer granted to them. Mr. Brookfield, who up to the time of the Halifax explosion owned and operated a large dry dock at Halifax, had a very modern and up-to-date wrecking plant, but unfortunately when the explosion took place his plant was destroyed. Another company, called the Reid Wrecking Company, are sending a wrecking equipment down to Halifax, and we hope before long to come to some arrangement with them, so that they will be in a position to look after the salvaging of any steamships off the Nova Scotia coast, just as the Quebec company does on the St. Lawrence route.


John Howard Sinclair: If the minister will explain just what this wrecking company did, and how much money they made, we will have a much better idea as to whether it is necessary to make this expenditure or not.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I was about to explain that the earnings of the Quebec Salvaging and Wrecking Company from their working plant amounted to $105,843.65. The Dominion subsidy is $25,000, which brought their total earnings up to $130,843.65. I have the details of the expenditures here on salaries and wages, supplies, repairs,

insurance, depreciation, interest, etc. They made a profit of 39,786.70. Our contract reads that the Dominion Government shall get one-half of whatever the profits the companies make, and the Government's share is 34,893.35. I will be very glad tomorrow to give the hon. member for Guys-borough (Mr. Sinclair) every detail in regard to the plant, pumps, tender, etc. I will also give him the number of wrecks and other details.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Has the Government any control of the cost of operating this plant, and of the charges made?
Mr.	BALLANTYNE:	Yes, absolute	control.	The company	cannot	issue	any
schedule of charges until it is first approved by the Minister of Marine.
Unforeseen expenses-$5,000.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Is there an appropriation available for supplying uniforms to the officers of the steamer Champlain which	plies between	Murray	Bay	andRiviere-Ouelle wharf?	Last	summer I
happened to be passing on the steamer nearly every week, and it seemed to me that the uniforms of the officers were absolutely worn out; they were of a shabby yellow colour, in fact, every colour except navy blue. I wrote to the department about it, and they told me that new uniforms had been supplied to the., officers the previous fall. To my mind that is not satisfactory. If the uniforms, for one reason or the other, are not in good condition, I think they should be replaced at once, and new uniforms issued. Between three and four thousand people from all parts of Canada, and from different points in the United States, go to Murray Bay every summer and I think it is a poor advertisement for Canada to have the officers of the Champlain uniformed as they were last summer.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: No provision is made for buying uniforms for the officers and crew; they have to provide their own uniforms.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am informed that last year and the year previous some of the officers were given uniforms by the department, and the department's answer to my letter stated that uniforms had been supplied to them the year previous.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is quite true that up to a year ago the department did provide uniforms. However, at that time it 
was decided on the recommendation of the officers in charge that the Government should no longer do so. Since then the officers and men have had to provide their own uniforms.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Will that policy be adopted by the department in the future?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: All Government
policies are subject to the will of Parliament. We will be very glad to hear any suggestion from hon. gentlemen, but at the moment that is the policy which has been decided upon in this matter.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I have a suggestion to offer with regard to the steamer Champlain. When we were considering the Estimates of the Railway Department I advanced the same suggestion in connection with the service which is to-day in operation between the south shore and the north shore of the St. Lawrence. Next summer, on the first of July, the Quebec and Saguenay railway will be finished and in operation. Therefore, the steamship service will not be as necessary as it formerly was. I think it would be well if the department were to place the Champlain on a new route, for instance, between Murray Bay and Cap a l'Aigle, St. Fidele, and St. Simeon, and then across to Tadoussac. The navigation is good for the steamers at all times, even in the worst season in the fall, and if this is done the people in the district will reap the benefit of the new railway; otherwise they will not have the necessary facilities to connect with the railway. Then once or twice a week, when the weather permitted, the Champlain could cross over to Fraserville and thus give accommodation to people on both sides of the river. At the time I put the question to the Minister of Railways he told me to take the matter up with the department, and that is the reason I have brought it forward to-night.


Charles Arthur Gauvreau: I do not want my hon. friend (Mr. Casgrain) to have the only say in this matter, because it touches my riding also. I would like to have the boat touch first at Riviere du Loup which is not far down, and then proceed across to Tadoussac. This would provide communication between the north shore and the south shore, for which the people on both sides of the river are asking at the present time. The Champlain could also touch at Cap a l'Aigle, St. Fidele, St. Simeon, Murray Bay, and across to Riviere Ouelle. It would be a nice round trip, especially during the summer, would pay well, and furnish

ample accommodation to all the people on the south shore.
We used to have a service between the north shore and the south, even during the winter, but the little boat that was there has been taken away. II the minister can see his way clear to have this communication re-established, he will be given credit for his action by the people in that part of the country.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I am obliged to my hon. friend, and also to the member for Charlevoix-Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) for bringing this matter to my attention, particularly in view of the fact that the Quebec and Saguenay Railway is now finished. I will discuss the matter with the Minister of Railways and see if we can meet the views of the hon. gentlemen. ,
Amount required for two boilers for CXJ.S. Montcalm, $70,000.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Last year an amount was required for the same purpose. Is it for the same boilers, or have they to be replaced again?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We could not put the boilers in last year; this amount is being voted again this year for the same purpose.
Amount required for one steamer for buoy and lighthouse service in Maritime Provinces $150,000.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I wish to amend this vote so that it will read as follows:
Amount required for two motor patrol vessels for .buoy and lighthouse service in British Columbia, to replace vote 205 for amount required for one steamer for buoy and lighthouse service in Maritime Province $150,000-$50,000.
Now that the war is practically over, some of the steamers that had been requisitioned by the Naval Service are free, and so I am asking for only $50,000 instead of $150,000.


Alexander William Chisholm: I received a letter a few days ago from a Mr. McDonald in my county, advising me that he had picked up a buoy off the west coast of Inverness. Is it the policy of the department to compensate persons who save this valuable property?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It lias always been the policy of the Government to pay at a reasonable rate, for any service rendered; but the department would have to be satisfied that the service was really rendered. Perhaps the hon. member will write me about the matter to which he refers.


Alexander William Chisholm: I have already written the department.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I shall be glad to look into the matter.


Mr. McISAAC:: Has the minister received a communication from the crew of the steamer Brant, which is engaged in this service around the coast of Prince Edward Island ? They complain that their wages are lower than those paid to the crews of other steamers engaged in similar work, and that while the wages of other creiws have been increased, theirs have not. Is the minister disposed to meet the demands of these men?	*


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: These vessels are graded in various classes. The crew of the steamer Brant are paid the same wages as the crews of steamers in the same class.


James McIsaac: Has there been any increase in their wages during the last two or three years?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes. I remember asking for a list of officers and crews on the various Government steamers, and the salaries were all increased according to rank. That is, captains got a little more than ordinary seamen, but there was a general increase to all officers and men on Government vessels.


William Duff: How many steamers has the department on the Atlantic coast for the purpose of laying buoys and serving lighthouses? I call attention to a letter I wrote the department some time ago during the absence of the minister and his deputy, with regard to the necessity of placing two automatic buoys in the bay and harbour of Lunenburg. Lunenburg is the most important harbour on the Atlantic coast, outside of Halifax; large numbers of ships go in and out of that harbour both in summer and in winter. But the harbour is not properly buoyed, and if the matter is not attended to there may be a bad accident. Ships come in in the middle of the night; sometimes when they get part of the way in they have to put to sea again on account of the weather. I have known ships to come into the bay, go out again and have to remain out four or five days before the weather permitted their coming into the harbour. The department should not hesitate at the expense necessary to provide one or two buoys in a harbour like that. The only answer I received from the gentleman in charge of the department at the time was that the Lighthouse Board would not grant my request. But I think that I know more about the harbour of Lunenburg than the Lighthouse Board does. Some of these ships have crews of twenty

men, and it would be a terrible thing if any of them ran on the rocks in the harbour and serious loss of life and property resulted.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The steamers engaged in placing buoys on the Atlantic coast are the Arranmore, the Stanley, and the Lady Laurier. With regard to the placing of additional buoys at the port of Lunenburg, such matters come under the review of the Lighthouse Board, although they always come to me after that board has decided whether or not the expenditure is necessary. I shall be very glad, however, to look into the matter brought up by my hon. friend.
River St. Lawrence, ship channel, $478,000.
. Mr. McKENZIE: What is this for?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The vote is the same as last year. It is for dredging, maintenance and operating of the dredging fleet, and so on. A good deal of dredging is done on the St. Lawrence route, especially on the north channel from Quebec to Grosse He.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: Is this new work or is it keeping clear the old works that were completed some time ago?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There is at present a thirty-foot channel at low water from Montreal to the sea, but we are deepening that to thirty-five feet, and that is what this dredging fleet is proposed to be engaged on during the coming season.


Mr. PARENT:: Not long ago I saw in the newspapers that such large steamers as the Olympic and Aquitania drew too much water to admit of their coming up the Channel as far as Quebec. In speaking of this matter to different navigators and pilots, I find that any of those men could have easily brought those ships up to Quebec. I should not like the impression to be spread abroad that such vessels as those I have mentioned could not use our Canadian ports on account of drawing too much water. If such a statement as I have seen in the press is not correct, I presume the minister can make a statement to that effect, so that such bad news will not be sent abroad.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I have not seen the press report referred to, but no douibt it referred to a question asked by the hon. member for Dorchester (Mr. Cannon) as to why the Aquitania that brought troops from England and disembarked them at Halifax and then went to New York, did not go up
[Mr. Duff.l
to the port of Quebec. I told him at that time that I had not seen the press report, but I have since advised him that it was due to three reasons: First, the owners had the ship destined for the port of New York, and not for the port of Quebec; second, the rate of insurance would, unfortunately, be higher if the ship came up the St. Lawrence route; and third, if one of those ships like the Olympic or the Aquitania reached the Beaujean bank at low tide they would have to wait until the tide would rise suffiicently to admit of vessels of their draught passing. But there is no doubt at all that the largest steamer afloat can come up the St. Lawrence river to the port of Quebec. There is ample water all the way along until they reach Beaujean bank, and if they .would wait until the tide rises they would not have any difficulty in getting over that bank. I have, therefore, no hesitation in making the staterfient quite clear for the public that those large steamers can come provided the owners want them to come to the port of Quebec.
Lighthouse and coast service-salaries and allowances to lightkeepers, $5-40,000.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I see that the amount is the same as last year. In my county there are many lighthouse keepers, and a number ot them have asked me to endeavour, if possible, to secure an increase in salary for them. The cost of living, of course, arxects these people just as much as any other. These lighthouse keepers have to endure great hardships all the year round; most of them are isolated in little houses along the coast and subject to the perils of the sea, and I do not see why they should not have increases just as the deputy ministers and others. I am making this plea for these men in my county as well as for those in other parts in Quebec and elsewhere along the coast where the same conditions prevail.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Last year, the hon. member for Charlevoix-Montmorency (Mr. Casgrain) will remember, in my Supplementary Estimates, I brought down an additional amount of $55,000 for lighthouse keepers, and that is incorporated in the amount of the expenditure for 1918-19 and also for this year, making $540,000 in all. I agree with the hon. member that lighthouse keepers ought to get an increase in their salaries in view of the high cost of living. Unfortunately, I was ill when the Main Estimates were being considered by the Government, but I hope to be able to persuade my colleagues to allow me to in-

elude another amount for lighthouse keepers in my Supplementary Estimates.


Arthur Bliss Copp: Have petitions been forwarded to the minister from different lighthouse keepers throughout the Maritime Provinces?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Y'es.
Mr. -OOPP:	Quite an organization was
started, and I understood from petitions and letters I received from different lighthouse keepers that they were practically promised this increase; that all they had to do was to lay their case before the department, and I understood they did so.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The hon. member
is quite right. The department has received petitions from coast to coast, and as I stated a moment ago, in view of the extremely high cost of living, the salaries are inadequate, and I think the Government would be justified, and the Committee also, in voting, when my Supplementary Estimates come down, an additional amount to be distributed amongst the lighthouse keepers.
Construction of lighthouses and aids to navigation, including apparatus, submarine signals, and providing suitable boats for carrying on construction work, $40-0,000.


James McIsaac: I made a request for an amount for the erection of a small lighthouse on a pier at Little Sands, King's county, P.E.I. I know the request was made too late for the Main Estimates, and perhaps the minister would be so good as to place an amount in the Supplementary Estimates for this service.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I shall be glad to
look into the matter, and I think possibly we can take it out of the vote we are asking for now.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: In my constituency
there is an island called Ile-aux-Coudres. It is about four miles from the shore, and the people from this island have to go up to Baie St. Paul, which is the nearest point for getting to the district, of Quebec and other places on the north shore. The man who carries the mails has a little ship of his own, but it is not very good, as his means are not great. Would it be possible for the Department of Marine to co-operate with the Post Office Department so that each could have a vote in the Estimates to pay this man for carrying passengers as well as the mail? At the present time the passengers all cross in this man's boat to the north shore when he - brings the mail over which he does twice a day. During
the winter season from October to April, the weather is very rough and in this small boat the passengers are in considerable peril. I know the people would be very grateful if a vote was included so that a suitable boat -could be got.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That is a matter
that the Postmaster General would have to look after, but if my hon. friend will write to the Postmaster General and let me have a copy of the letter I will confer with him and see what can be done.


Alexander William Chisholm: The minister is in possession of a petition from the fishermen of Grand Etang, in the county of Inverness, asking for a light. Grand Etang has developed into quite an important port. There must be from . fifty to sixty large vessels fishing from this port, two steamers enter it twice a week, and a number of schooners. The harbour was only opened a few years ago. At present there is only one light, and it is practically no assistance to vessels seeking entrance at night; it is an artificial harbour, and the entrance is very narrow. I wrote to the Department- some time ago about this matter, and I have had several interviews with some of the officers of the department during the absence of the minister and his deputy. I think the minister's offiagrs will agree that I have not troubled them very much about matters of this kind, but in this case a light is essential, and I should be very grateful, as I am sure hundreds of people along that shore would be, if the minister would take this matter into his consideration, and have his officers make a report. I understand that a steamer goes down there once a year distributing oil to the lighthouses, and carrying officers of the department. I should like them to gather the necessary information with respect to the representations I have made, because 1 know when the minister has the facts he will see to it that this light is placed.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I -have already had the facts placed before me, and I fully agree as to the necessity for a lighthouse at that point. At- the first meeting of the board I shall bring the matter to their attention, and I -hope -they will recommend the placing of a lighthouse at Grand Etang.


Alexander William Chisholm: The Lighthouse Board is made up of members from different parts of Canada, I understand.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I will personally
see that it is attended to.



Signal service, $60,000.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This is a very old service. Stations have been established to report the movement of ships, weather conditions, etc., by means of telephone, wireless and telegraph. The system extends from St. John, N.B., to Cape Race, Nfld.
* Administration of pilotage, $200,(MM).


Georges Parent: Will the minister explain this item?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This money is required for the ports of Montreal, Quebec, and Halifax, which come under the jurisdiction of the Department of Marine. I hope in the very near future to introduce a Bill seeking to bring all the pilotage systems in our important seaports under the authority of the Minister of Marine, and I shall be glad .to give all the information asked for on that occasion.


Mr. LOGGIE:: May I refer to the report made by Thomas Robb, James N. Bales and J. W. Harrison, commissioners who were appointed to report on the pilotage districts of Miramichi, Sydney, Louisburg, Halifax, St. John, Montreal and Quebec. The report has been received by the department, laid on .the Table, .and distributed to members. I direct the minister's attention especially to the recommendations regarding the Miramichi district. I was very glad to hear the minister announce that he proposes to introduce a Bill to bring certain of our great national ports under his department to a greater extent than has been the case in the past. The recommendations of the commission regarding the Miramichi district are as follows:
That the condition of the pilotage in this district has been found to he exceptional and the earnings of the .pilots during the year 1917 have been exceedingly low, owing .to the falling off of deal shipments by water, from the ports in this distriot. That it is most urgent that something should be done whereby tihe individual earnings of these .pilots may be increased, and with this in view we strongly recommend that the number of' pilots be reduced so as not to exceed twelve, and to accomplish this aim will require the retirement of four of the oldest pilots, whose ages range from 71 to 74. The enforced retirement of these men your commissioners consider will entail a certain hardship as they are well preserved and still active. Having these conditions in mind we recommend that some compensation be made to these men annually, to a sum not exceeding $300, for the remainder of their lives; but this shall be understood not to extend to any pilots who may hereafter be retired in this district. This will be in lino with the precedent created by the Marine Department in the Quebec Pilotage district when reducing the number of pilots in that district a few years ago.

The next paragraph refers to the Admiral Beatty, the vessel that is used in connection with this work, and sets out the fact that recently one of the vessels was lost at sea, and hence is no longer available for the work. The concluding paragraph is as follows:
That an additional five per centum per annum be deducted from the gross earnings of the pilots of this district for the purpose of creating and maintaining a superannuation fund for the pilots retiring in the district.
The average income of the pilots, for six months or during open navigation is about $750 per man, but owing to war conditions in 1917 the net earnings of each pilot were reduced to the nominal sum of $150. It is no wonder the commissioners say that something should be done in this matter. The conditions are very exceptional, and I am glad that the minister is considering the case of Miramichi, which is one of the greatest waterways in Canada. I am sure that a large number of ocean vessels will load there this year, and from this year's operations I have no doubt the men will receive a fair remuneration. But the whole situation is very unsatisfactory. The evidence shows that only three or four of the pilots are below the age of 66. The majority are between 60 and 70, and three or four of them are over 70. It seems to me that it would be reasonable to retire men of that age and not allow them to be in charge of valuable property. The loss of one vessel would more than counterbalance any reasonable provision that might be made for these men, and I hope that when the minister is reconsidering the matter he will give his earnest and considerate attention to the claims of the pilots on the Miramichi river. I do not think he would go very far afield if he accepted the suggestion of the Commission, and granted a small amount, not to exceed $300, as compensation to these three men between the .ages of 71 and 74. I trust he will see his way clear to vote a certain sum as the nucleus of a pension fund to which the pilots could pay so much annually out of their earnings, so that in the future when a pilot reaches a certain age he can be superannuated.


William Duff: Do these pilots on the Miramichi river devote all their time to piloting vessels in the navigation season, and are they paid from the ships they pilot?


William Stewart Loggie: Under normal conditions they devote all their time to the pilotage business during open navigation. The fees are paid into a common

fund and the money i& distributed pro rata among the pilots, less expenses for collection and distribution. The average earnings under normal conditions are about $750 per man, but during 1917, and probably the same will be true for 1918, their earnings were only nominal because practically no ocean vessels came to the Miramichi to load. I would like very much to have the Marine Department administer the work instead of having it done by a local commission.
Maintenance and repairs to wharves, $12,000.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: What wharves are these?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: This item is for the general maintenance and repairs wherever necessary to wharves, under the Marine Department,


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Can the minister mention a few wharves under the supervision of the Marine Department, to differentiate them from those under the Public Works Department?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: All wharves after they are completed by the Public Works Department come under the jurisdiction of the Marine Department. The expenditure for the past year in the different provinces was as follows:	Nova Scotia, $104.47;
Prince Edward Island, $97.81; New Brunswick, $5,561.05; Quebec, $1,646.67; Montreal District, $1,210.66; Ontario, $985.01; General account, $414.22; a total of $10,019.89. Each year new wharves are transferred to the control of the Marine Department from the Public Works Department.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: What do these repairs consist of? Are they gross or minor repairs?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There is an informal arrangement whereby repairs up to $50 ard performed by the Marine Department and larger repairs are referred to the Department of Public Works.
/


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: There are two wharves in my constituency, one at Baddeck and the other at Iona. They are wharves that I always contend are used in connection with the Intercolonial railway. The only connection between the Intercolonial railway and the county of Victoria is from Iona to Baddeck. The Government built the Iona wharf for the railway, because the rails ran down on the wharf. The cars are shunted down to the end of the wharf and from the cars the freight is put into the boat. The Government accept freight
166i
in all parts of the continent of America for that point, and have to deliver that freight at Baddeck. They could never do without a wharf, and have built a very fine one at Baddeck.
There is no charge on the wharf at Iona where they receive the freight from the boat and from the railway while there is a charge on landing at Baddeck. These wharves are practically a part of the railway system and without the wharf at which they could land these goods at Baddeck the railway could not receive the goods.
I had that wharf built-at least that wharf was built when the Laurier government was in power and I had something to say about the patronage. There is a very excellent wharf built at Baddeck. The farmers and people generally,-particularly the farmers-complain about this little tinkering charge of 25 cents, 50 cents or $1 on their freight. It does not amount to very much but it does not leave the wharf free as it used to. The wharf at Iona is free and the same rule .should apply to the one at Baddeck. I have brought this up before, but I believe the same charges are still collected at Baddeck.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: My hon. friend is quite correct. The wharf at Iona comes under the Minister of Public Works and no wharfage dues are collected. The wharf at Baddeck comes under Marine and Fisheries Department and we charge wharfages. I realize that it is rather inconsistent for one department to make a charge and another department not to do so. I will be very glad to look into it.


Daniel Duncan McKenzie: I would like to bring to the notice of the Minister of Railways that his wharf at Iona is in a very bad condition. The outer block was destroyed by the force of the sea some years ago and it has not been fixed. For that reason cars cannot be run out to the end as they used to be. I was surprised last year to find that it had not been, repaired.


John Dowsley Reid: I am glad the hon. member has brought that to my attention. When I come before the Committee with my Estimates I will have some information in connection with it. I will nake a note of it.
Amounts required to pay pensions to the following retired pilots:-<Ls. R. Demers, Jos. Lapointe, Paul Go'beil, Barthelemi Lachance, Alphonse Asselin, Chas. Normand, Nap Rioux, Elzear Desrosiers, Hubert Raymond, Arbel Bernier, Laurent Godbout, Adelme Pouliot, Edmond Laroohelle, L. E. Morin, A. T. Simard, Joseph Plante, Victor Vezina, J. G. Dupil, Raymond

Baquet, Alfred Larochelle, Theophile Corriveau, Alphonse Pouliot, Emilio Couillard1, Treffle 1>
lisle, David Dumas, Alfred Goudreau, One-sirne Noel, P. X. Desmeules, Adjutor Baillargeon, Joseph Pouiliot, Arthur Bail'largeon, John A. Irvine, Camillle Bernier, $9,90*0.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister explain that item?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: A few years ago there were found to be too many pilots in the Quebec district and in order to reduce the number from 116 to 75 an arrangement was made by one of my predecessors, Hon. L. P. Brodeur, as a result of which an Order in Council was passed in 1906 providing that those pilots who were retired should receive a pension of 300 a year.


John Howard Sinclair: Has the number been reduced this year? How many are there now?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Sixty-one.


John Howard Sinclair: How many last year?	;	(	.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: About the same number, I think, but I am not sure. There has been a certain amount of criticism from other parts of the payment of this pension, but the Order in Council is there and the pension has-been paid since 1906.


John Howard Sinclair: It seems unfair that the pilots of Quebec should be pensioned whilst the pilots on the rest of the coast are not provided for. Is the Order in Council going to be continued? Do not these * pilots earn a lot of money and is there not a fund by which they provide for retired pilots out of their own earnings?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes, the Quebec pilots have a pension fund; in fact, all the pilots have with the exception of those of Miramichi, of which the hon. member for Northumberland (Mr. Loggie) spoke so eloquently. But they have, in their wisdom, not provided any funds for pensions; the Quebec pilots have. In addition to that, this pension has been voted by Parliament each year since 1906, and I do not see how we can avoid paying it.


John Howard Sinclair: The minister does
not see any way by which we can escape paying this money every year. Has lie any plan by which we can get rid of it?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: il took this matter up with the Quebec pilots within the la^t two or three weeks, because the Royal Commission that was appointed over a year ago to look into the pilotage system at the leading seaports drew my attention especially to 
the fact that the Quebec pilots were paid this pension, whereas the pilots in other ports were not. I am trying to make arrangements for another year, if at all possible, whereby we will either give pensions to the pilots in all the other principal ports or else the Government may refuse to ask Parliament to vote this amount for the Quebec pilots. It is a matter that I have under consideration at the present time, especially in view of the report made by the Royal Commission.


John Howard Sinclair: I am not advocating pensions for the pilots in all the other ports, because I think it would involve a considerable expenditure, and I am not sure that it would be justified. But I think the department is making a mistake in treating the St. Lawrence pilots differently from pilots in other parts of the country. I think this was due to the system of patronage that existed, and may still exist, whereby too many pilots were appointed in the St. Lawrence, with the result that they were crowding one another, and the country had to take the load and bear it. I regard that as a blunder. I would like to see some arrangement by which this could be struck off altogether instead of spreading it all over the country. That would seem to me to be the better plan. We cannot afford to be throwing away money, as money is now very scarce. Economy is absolutely necessary at the present time. Spending money unnecessarily is the sin of extravagance, which is like the sin against the Holy Ghost; it should not, and it will not, be forgiven by the people.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: 
John Howard Sinclair: Who appoints the new pilots?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The Department of Marine. I am doing my best to get this matter remedied, but I must frankly admit that I do not see very much chance of doing so. The Order in Council is so clear and explicit in its terms that there seems nothing for it but to give this pension.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am sorry to have to take exception to the remarks of my hon. friend (Mr. Sinclair). If this Order in Council was passed by the late Administration, it must have been for certain good reasons and after due consideration. As the minister has well said he is face to face with a certain condition which was created by a previous minister who was aware of the special circumstances in the province of Quebec, and who, after weighing the circumstances, decided to establish this fund and make these payments. I do not see how the Government can very well get out of the payment now. If the pilots of other parts of the country have not been able to secure a pension I am very sorry for them, but they should have looked out for themselves and asked to he included in this Order in Council at the time it was passed. It is not too late to do that now when Orders in Council seem to be so popular wdth the present Government. It would be easy enough to pass an Order in Council providing pensions for the pilots of other provinces, and I would not object to it. It is only reasonable that these men, after their long service for the department, should get some consideration. I do not think the amount should be reduced, and personally I would be in favour of the same consideration being extended to other pilots.
Compassionate allowance to Mrs. Robert Mc-Menemy, widow of the late light-keeper at Otter Head1, Hake Superior, $500, and compassionate allowance to Mrs. Wm. Sherlock, widow of the late lightkeeper at Michipieoten Island, east end. Lake Superior, $1,000.


John Howard Sinclair: What has the
minister got to say about this?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: It is a compassionate allowance for the widows of these men who lost their lives in getting from their stations to the shore.


John Howard Sinclair: I suppose the same allowance is open to persons similarly situated in other parts of Canada?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.
Meteorological Service, including magnetic observatories, grants of $&(W) each to Kingston and Montreal Observatories, also allowance of $4 00 to L. F. Gorman, observer at Ottawa- $210,880.


John Howard Sinclair: What is the increase for here?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Salaries.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Result of the high cost of living?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I suppose so.


John Howard Sinclair: Are the salaries of all the officers increased, or only some of them?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There is quite a
long list of them. The increases are from $150 to $200; and the director of the service, Sir Frederick Stupart, gets $1,000.


John Howard Sinclair: Will the minister explain why the different items are mentioned in the vote?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: There is a grant of $500 to the observatory at McGill university, and another of the same amount to that at Queen's university, Kingston. An allowance of $400 is made to L. F. Gorman, the observer at Ottawa.


John Howard Sinclair: Is the minister getting results from the Meteorological Service?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes, most excellent results. Reports of the weather conditions are sent all over Canada.


Alexander William Chisholm: And storm signals?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: Yes.
Marline Hospitals, including grants to Institutions assisting sailors-$75,000; shipwrecked and distressed seamen, $3,(WO.


William Duff: I draw the attention of the minister to the fact that while we are increasing the salaries of other people something should be done for the keepers of marine hospitals, and the medical men who attend them. I wrote a letter last year in regard to the staff of the Lunenburg Marine Hospital, and I was told by the department that they could not increase the salaries. The high cost of living applies to these officers as it does to everybody else The allowance they receive is small. It seems to me that these officials have to perform a great deal of work, not only in Lunenburg but wherever there is a marine hospital. The physicians have a great many patients to attend to, and their salaries should be increased proportionately with those of other officials. That applies also to the keepers of the hospitals, whose salaries have not been raised for a good many years. I would ask the minister to take the matter into his serious consideration and see if some increase cannot he granted.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I will take the matter into consideration.


John Howard Sinclair: A large a'mount of money is collected from shipping at the different ports, and I understand it is ap-

plied for the purpose of maintaining these marine hospitals. I would like to know what the revenue was last year, and how the fund stands at the present timer


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have a credit to the fund of $291,572.51. During the past year extraordinary demands have been made upon the Marine Hospitals owing to the influenza epidemic, and the expenditure has been greater than usual.


John Howard Sinclair: In view of the fact that there is such a large amount to the credit of the fund, something more should be done to make provision for distressed seamen. For a number of years I have been bringing to the attention of the Government the case of the town of Canso and vicinity, where there is a- good deal of shipping but where no proper provision is made for the care of seamen. The banks lie off Cape Canso, and this port is the main refuge for fishing vessels. Large numbers of ships go in there for shelter, for bait, to land supplies, and so on. Many sailors frequent that port. Dr. McGarry has been appointed a physician there to give some attention to the sailors, but I am told by him that the department refuses to pay for the drugs. They give him a pit" tance for looking after the port, which is quite inadequate, and then they compel him to pay for the medicine he gives to the sailors. He has taken the matter up with the department, but no attention has been paid to his letters. The price of drugs has increased enormously during the last few years, and it is not fair that the doctors should have to pay for them under these circumstances. The number of cases that the doctor at this port has had to attend to has also increased, but apparently no interest is taken by the department in the necessity for providing medicines for these sick sailors. The ship-owners are paying the money; the minister is accumulating the fund-I do not know what he is doing with it. But no improvement has been made, at that port at all events, in the method of taking care of sick seamen.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I shall be very glad to give as favourable consideration as possible to the case of Canso, and also to the matter of the expenditure for medicine. During the war we probably have not been as generous as we should have been under peace conditions, but in view of the fact that we have this surplus in the fund, I shall 'be glad to take the matter up.


William Duff: The medical officer at Lunenburg drew my attention to the same matter.

He has had to pay for his own medicine, and as the cost of drugs and medicine has increased about three hundred per cent during the last three or four years, it takes practically his whole salary to pay for medicines.


Alexander William Chisholm: Who is the medical
officer at Cheticamp and Grand Etang?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We have no officer there.


Alexander William Chisholm: What has it cost the department to pay the bill for these two ports?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: We would have to look up the Auditor General's Report to get that information.


Alexander William Chisholm: Has any attempt been made to get the doctor there to accept an appointment as port physician? I am particularly anxious to get that information. I wish to corroborate what the member for Antigonish and Guysborough (Mr. J. H. Sinclair) and my hon. friend (Mr. Duff) have said with respect to drugs. The position taken by the department in this matter is ridiculous. My hon. friend says that the cost of drugs has gone up three hundred per cent. Yes, it has- and a thousand per cent in many cases. If there is much sickness, more than the amount allowed to the doctors for their services in these ports would be taken up in paying for medicines. Representations have been made to the department during the last two years with regard to this very- matter, but none of the doctors seem to receive any consideration. The doctors simply cannot afford to give the men the best kinds of medicine, which to-day are exceedingly expensive, unless they are compensated therefor.
Steamboat inspection, $87,827.77.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Reference has been
made to the service carried on by the steamer Champlain in my county. I understand that this steamer was taken off the service last fall and the year previous because she was not in a seaworthy condition and some repairs had to be made to her engine and boilers. I am told on good authority that this steamer, which was acquired by the Government fifteen or sixteen years ago and has voyaged in rough seas and rough weather most of the time, cannot be trusted at all seasons and in all weathers. For service on the route that I and the member for Temiscouata (Mr. Gauvreau) have suggested to-night, it would be well for the department to see that the

boat is properly inspected and put in seaworthy condition in the spring, or even in the fall, so that she may remain on the service during the whole of the season when the people are most in need of her services. About the month of October the people on the north shore are absolutely cut off from all communication. If this boat was put in order during the early summer or early in September, she would be available at all times during the winter season.


Alexander William Chisholm: Can the fishermen
along the coast participate in the Sick Mariners' Fund?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: They can if they are engaged on a vessel that pays sick mariners' dues; otherwise they cannot.


Alexander William Chisholm: That is one thing that I have been trying to put before the department during the last few years. It is very unfair not to permit the fisnermen along the coast to get the advantage of this Sick Mariners' Fund. There is no reason why a change should not be made in the law with a view to enabling the department to permit these fishermen to participate in the fund. Let them collect so much from the fishermen, who are ready to pay a reasonable amount in order that they may get the benefit of the fund. There could be no better way of using the surplus at present to the credit of the fund than to improve the treatment of these sick fishermen. Although I am not a very apt politician, I remember that a policy of that kind was promised to the fishermen of that part of Nova Scotia a good many years ago. The fishermen were promised free medical treatment if they would support a certain party. If they offered that policy as an inducement, they must have regarded it as acceptable to the fishermen. I know that it would be acceptable to them; it would be a splendid thing for them. In my own port of Margaree, where there are perhaps one hundred and fifty fishermen, it would be a splendid thing if these men could have the advantage of the Sick Mariners' Fund; I amVure that they would be glad to contribute to the fund in order to obtain the benefit of it. I suggest very strongly that the minister, who is disposed to look kindly on these suggestions, give this matter every consideration.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: I would be glad if it was possible, but the Sick Mariners' Fund is raised, as no doubt the hon. member is aware, by dues paid by steamship owners, and the fund is for sick mariners
only from ships that pay -those dues. The fishermen are outside of that, and it would not be permissible, under the authority that we have for sick mariners' dues, to pay any of the fund out to fishermen.


Alexander William Chisholm: I quite understand that, but is it not practicable to get authority to do this? I think this is a splendid idea.


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: The idea is good. I do not know whether I can get the steamship owners to agree to it, but I will endeavour to do so.


John Howard Sinclair: My hon. friend referred to an old pledge given in 1911 that if the Conservative party were returned to power, the fishermen would have free medical attendance. Is the department going to carry out that pledge?


Charles Colquhoun Ballantyne: That is a bit of past political history. All I know about it is what my deputy has just whispered in my ear now. Of course, I am not responsible for promises of well known gentlemen during election time.
Progress reported.
On motion of Hon. J. D. Reid the House adjourned at 11.50 p.m.
Tuesday, May 20, 1919.